:00:36. > :00:41.A thumping big win for Labour over the Conservatives in London -
:00:42. > :00:43.but what do Thursday's less impressive results across
:00:44. > :00:48.the country mean for Jeremy Corbyn's chances of getting to Number 10
:00:49. > :00:50.We'll hear from both sides of the debate
:00:51. > :00:54.Here's one Tory riding high at least.
:00:55. > :00:57.Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson has managed to take
:00:58. > :01:00.the party once thought of as too toxic for Scotland
:01:01. > :01:07.And with the elections now over it's back to the biggest political
:01:08. > :01:11.The Cabinet's heavyweights have been trading blows
:01:12. > :01:18.In London - Sadiq Khan emerged triumphant from an often rancorous
:01:19. > :01:33.And how will the Khan- Corbyn combo work?
:01:34. > :01:38.giving media interviews this morning, I'm joined in the studio
:01:39. > :01:40.by the aristocracy, the upper crust, the royalty
:01:41. > :01:47.Tom Newton-Dunn, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Steve Richards.
:01:48. > :01:49.We're going to have a whip round after the show
:01:50. > :01:52.and get Steve a double-barrelled surname too.
:01:53. > :02:04.So, this week's elections were an extraordinary
:02:05. > :02:06.demonstration of modern democracy in the United Kingdom.
:02:07. > :02:08.There was good and bad for almost every political party
:02:09. > :02:11.across the nations and regions, and that's meant a feast
:02:12. > :02:12.of spinning, analysis, claim and counter-claim.
:02:13. > :02:15.Well today with almost all of the results now in -
:02:16. > :02:17.although we're still waiting for a few police and crime
:02:18. > :02:20.commissioners and one English council - we're going to try
:02:21. > :02:24.First here's Adam with his behind-the-scenes look at how
:02:25. > :02:29.It's election night, and my chance to annoy the big
:02:30. > :02:37.And this is the most depressing bit.
:02:38. > :02:42.Are you expecting to get a bit of a headache?
:02:43. > :02:48.It's a two day extravaganza of results.
:02:49. > :02:50.Will Jeremy Corbyn be staying up all night tonight?
:02:51. > :02:54.Jeremy doesn't go to bed on nights like this!
:02:55. > :02:57.We're old mates, we've been together 30 years on these different things
:02:58. > :03:01.So you're both proper election night geeks?
:03:02. > :03:06.The Labour telly addicts watched their party lose one council
:03:07. > :03:10.and a handful of councillors in England, not a lot,
:03:11. > :03:13.but not amazing either, as even Jeremy Corbyn admitted.
:03:14. > :03:17.We were getting predictions that Labour was going to lose councils,
:03:18. > :03:23.Although he celebrated winning two by-elections in pretty
:03:24. > :03:32.This is the first time I've ever had a desk at one of these things.
:03:33. > :03:38.The SNP got close to a majority in the Scottish Parliament,
:03:39. > :03:49.It is a vote of confidence in the record in government
:03:50. > :03:56.of the SNP, and it is a vote of trust in the SNP to lead
:03:57. > :04:03.Davidson, Ruth - Scottish and Conservative and Unionist..
:04:04. > :04:05.The biggest smile belongs to Ruth Davidson, leader
:04:06. > :04:09.of the Scottish Tories, who displaced Labour to become
:04:10. > :04:14.Have you been looking in the results in Scotland than just going whoa?
:04:15. > :04:23.Even if you look at some of the seats...
:04:24. > :04:26.We've just seen a few come through, the SNP have hold of one, but,
:04:27. > :04:30.actually, with huge swings from the SNP to the Conservatives.
:04:31. > :04:33.In Wales Ukip won their first seats on the Assembly,
:04:34. > :04:36.meaning a comeback for the former Tory MP Neil Hamilton,
:04:37. > :04:40.who managed to offend one Welshman within seconds.
:04:41. > :04:41.I'm thoroughly Welsh through and through,
:04:42. > :04:45.Here were are in virtually your hometown of Llanelli.
:04:46. > :04:47.Just one correction, Neil, of course it's not
:04:48. > :04:49.virtually my hometown - it is my hometown.
:04:50. > :04:53.So let's be very accurate about that, shall we?
:04:54. > :04:58.By lunchtime on Friday, us media types had realised that
:04:59. > :05:02.nothing especially dramatic had happened, so we all hotfooted
:05:03. > :05:05.it to City Hall to see Labour's Sadiq Khan elected
:05:06. > :05:10.Though most of the chat among the hacks in the press room
:05:11. > :05:19.was about the campaign run by his Tory rival, Zac Goldsmith,
:05:20. > :05:20.which was described as mean and divisive.
:05:21. > :05:25.I personally never went near central office in either
:05:26. > :05:28.of my campaigns, and I don't think Boris Johnson did either.
:05:29. > :05:30.Is that because they're not very good?
:05:31. > :05:32.That's because you are the candidates, it is
:05:33. > :05:36.your campaign and you should run it your way.
:05:37. > :05:41.And Labour nabbed another mayor in Bristol, taking over
:05:42. > :05:46.The results from other campaigns around the UK are still
:05:47. > :05:51.It's not been super exciting, but we have got a nice view
:05:52. > :06:01.So with almost all the counting and number crunching across England,
:06:02. > :06:04.Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland now finished, let's take a look
:06:05. > :06:10.The SNP won the Scottish election, and will be the largest party
:06:11. > :06:16.But Nicola Sturgeon's party fell two short of a majority, and will govern
:06:17. > :06:22.Ruth Davidson's Conservatives overtook Labour to become the second
:06:23. > :06:26.biggest party north of the border, with 31 seats.
:06:27. > :06:28.Scottish Labour were pushed into 3rd place -
:06:29. > :06:33.with 24 seats, down 13 from the last Holyrood election
:06:34. > :06:35.Labour remains the dominant party in Wales, winning 29
:06:36. > :06:41.And Leanne Wood's Plaid Cymru pipped the Conservatives 12 to 11 to become
:06:42. > :06:49.taking 7 seats in Wales - the first time they've sat
:06:50. > :06:52.In Northern Ireland, the DUP will once again
:06:53. > :06:59.They won 38 seats, with the next biggest party Sinn Fein on 28.
:07:00. > :07:02.Results in the English councils were seen as a major test
:07:03. > :07:07.And the party had a mixed night winning the most councils -
:07:08. > :07:12.but losing 23 councillors since the last elections in 201 .
:07:13. > :07:14.There were two Westminster by-elections - with Labour
:07:15. > :07:18.holding the seats of Sheffield Brightside and Ogmore
:07:19. > :07:20.And the Labour party won in London too -
:07:21. > :07:23.where Sadiq Khan beat Zac Goldsmith to the mayoralty,
:07:24. > :07:31.winning 57% of the vote on first preferences, to Goldsmith's 43%
:07:32. > :07:34.The Green Party came third in the London elections -
:07:35. > :07:36.with their highest vote tally yet in the capital.
:07:37. > :07:39.There were also new Mayors chosen in Bristol, Salford and Liverpool -
:07:40. > :07:43.Finally, voters in 40 police forces in England and Wales
:07:44. > :07:46.elected their new Police and Crime Commissioner.
:07:47. > :07:50.With the Tories and Labour triumphing over independents.
:07:51. > :07:54.With 36 of the 40 election results having declared, the Tories have won
:07:55. > :08:12.What does this mean, in the round, for Labour? It is the worst possible
:08:13. > :08:16.result for Labour, because it isn't good enough, and it isn't bad
:08:17. > :08:21.enough, which is the worst-case scenario for anyone who wants Labour
:08:22. > :08:26.to win in 2020. This is concerning the likes of Jeremy Corbyn and John
:08:27. > :08:30.McDonnell, but it is the point of being a political party, winning
:08:31. > :08:35.elections. Is it the worst of both worlds because they didn't do badly
:08:36. > :08:39.enough? To justify ousting Corbyn, but they didn't do well enough to
:08:40. > :08:45.suggest that Corbyn's people were right, and there was a groundswell
:08:46. > :08:50.of opinion moving to the far left. We saw the message coming out from
:08:51. > :08:55.the deputy leader on Friday morning, stand-down everyone, not yet. Do you
:08:56. > :09:01.agree? No. Even if these results had been much worse, as many expected it
:09:02. > :09:05.would be in the media and beyond, it still wouldn't have been the mood
:09:06. > :09:10.now. It is all being played out in public. Tom Watson, the deputy
:09:11. > :09:14.leader, gave an interview on Friday where he called ambiguously for
:09:15. > :09:19.patients. What he meant was, it is far too early to remove a leader who
:09:20. > :09:25.got an overwhelming mandate nine months ago in September. And he s
:09:26. > :09:30.right about that. You can't do it if the party membership overwhelmingly
:09:31. > :09:35.backs the leader. But what he meant by patients was, you don't have to
:09:36. > :09:38.translate it, there is a time-limit to this. Jeremy Corbyn needs more
:09:39. > :09:44.time to show he can put together a winning formula. If he fails in
:09:45. > :09:49.that, at some point, there will be he and others who will trigger some
:09:50. > :09:54.kind of challenge. So he's on a leasehold? Yes. He's not doing well
:09:55. > :09:58.enough to suggest he will win the next election. I don't agree with
:09:59. > :10:03.Julia that people are indifferent about winning elections. But party
:10:04. > :10:08.members who voted for Jeremy Corbyn are absolutely different to winning
:10:09. > :10:13.elections. I don't know. I assume that people who go out knocking on
:10:14. > :10:18.doors want to win. Sadiq Khan. That was the big result for Labour, and
:10:19. > :10:25.he won very comfortably. He won very strongly in the GLA as well. The
:10:26. > :10:29.Tories did very badly. We have this strange situation where, despite
:10:30. > :10:34.Sadiq Khan being the poster boy for the night, he still hasn't met
:10:35. > :10:39.Jeremy Corbyn. Is Mr Khan going to be an alternative Labour Party based
:10:40. > :10:43.around London City Hall? He tells us he's going to meet Jeremy Corbyn
:10:44. > :10:48.tomorrow. Corbyn said they were going to meet today. It is a real
:10:49. > :10:55.problem for Jeremy now because he is up against someone else with their
:10:56. > :10:58.own mandate, an enormous one. 1 3 million Londoners, together with
:10:59. > :11:04.their second preferences. A huge number. I think Sadiq Khan will use
:11:05. > :11:07.that to be the mouthpiece of the moderates, the soft left. I would
:11:08. > :11:12.suggest that if we were not looking at this through the prism of what it
:11:13. > :11:18.means for Mr Corbyn, we may be pointing out that the Tories didn't
:11:19. > :11:21.have a great night. They lost seats in England and Wales, they lost
:11:22. > :11:27.London and their share of the vote in London is now under 30%. They
:11:28. > :11:31.only got eight seats on the Greater London assembly. They are in their
:11:32. > :11:36.worst position since 2004, which was the second time we had a London
:11:37. > :11:40.election. It isn't brilliant for them. They would save the first year
:11:41. > :11:46.in government, do get this kind of reaction. Or worse ones. At what is
:11:47. > :11:51.overlooked in all this is that the last Labour government's post-9
:11:52. > :11:55.devolution proposals has transformed UK politics. In Scotland, the
:11:56. > :12:00.Conservatives are thrilled because they came second, but that wasn t
:12:01. > :12:05.about David Cameron, it was about Ruth Davidson, their leader there.
:12:06. > :12:10.In London, when people voted for Sadiq Khan, they were not thinking
:12:11. > :12:16.about Jeremy Corbyn. They were voting for him. Unintentionally
:12:17. > :12:20.those devolution proposals have transformed UK politics, fracturing
:12:21. > :12:26.the UK parties, and will no longer allow any single party to make those
:12:27. > :12:29.sort of thousand seat gains that Blair did. But the Tories shouldn't
:12:30. > :12:38.be too complacent about this. It wasn't a great result. It wasn't,
:12:39. > :12:43.but who would expect it? The party is an absolute disarray, the deepest
:12:44. > :12:46.divisions. We have had a senior Cabinet Minister resign, criticising
:12:47. > :12:50.the Prime Minister and the Chancellor. If they did well this
:12:51. > :12:56.time, I would be surprised. So the Tories should have done worse? They
:12:57. > :13:00.should. I would disagree with your hypothesis to begin with, because
:13:01. > :13:03.they are, in some parts of this country, making remarkable progress,
:13:04. > :13:12.like Scotland. They could have lost seats. We know the Ruth Davidson
:13:13. > :13:16.story. If David Cameron can show his own party he's still a winner, six
:13:17. > :13:21.years into government, I would suggest he is pretty safe
:13:22. > :13:24.post-referendum. Well, that is our panel's verdict.
:13:25. > :13:26.So the high point for the Conservatives this week
:13:27. > :13:28.was undoubtedly in Scotland, where a party once known
:13:29. > :13:30.as the toxic Tories has become Ruth Davidson's Conservatives,
:13:31. > :13:32.replacing Labour as Scotland's second party and becoming
:13:33. > :13:34.the official opposition to the SNP at Holyrood.
:13:35. > :13:36.Ruth Davidson successfully positioned herself as the only
:13:37. > :13:38.person capable of standing up to Nicola Sturgeon over independence
:13:39. > :13:42.This morning Nicola Sturgeon says "bring it on2.
:13:43. > :13:44.Well we can speak now to Ruth Davidson, she joins us
:13:45. > :13:57.Good morning. Are the Scottish Conservatives now quite separate
:13:58. > :14:04.from the Tories? There was no appearance in your campaign from
:14:05. > :14:10.ministers in Westminster. But our campaign was launched in March?
:14:11. > :14:16.Other than that, did anybody come up to campaign for you? This was not
:14:17. > :14:20.about London. It is a sophisticated electorate in Scotland. People knew
:14:21. > :14:24.what they were voting for. This wasn't about who would be Prime
:14:25. > :14:29.Minister. This was about who would be the First Minister of Scotland,
:14:30. > :14:32.and who would be the Leader of the Opposition in Scotland. I made a
:14:33. > :14:38.very clear campaign of what I would do if I were to be the Leader of the
:14:39. > :14:42.Opposition, how I would hold the SNP to account, how I would say no to a
:14:43. > :14:46.second independence referendum, and how I would concentrate on the
:14:47. > :14:51.things that matter to ordinary Scots. Let's not go over the
:14:52. > :14:57.campaign again! I could probably say those lines in my sleep! In what
:14:58. > :14:58.ways to you now regard yourself as distinctive and different from the
:14:59. > :15:07.English Tories? Since I took over as leader I was
:15:08. > :15:10.the first leader in Scotland to be the leader of the entire party in
:15:11. > :15:20.Scotland. In terms of fundraising, Pelissie... What made you different?
:15:21. > :15:25.You had seen me takes on different policy decisions from my colleagues
:15:26. > :15:30.down south, if you compare the manifestos you will see differences,
:15:31. > :15:34.for one example, the right to buy for housing association houses. We
:15:35. > :15:37.don't think that is appropriate for the housing market in Scotland. How
:15:38. > :15:43.colleagues did down south. There is a distinct difference that. I wonder
:15:44. > :15:53.if it was a Scottish Conservative idea or not. The title was Ruth
:15:54. > :15:56.Davidson, a strong opposition. It did say Scottish Conservatives twice
:15:57. > :16:02.on the front cover. And multiply many times inside. In the Times the
:16:03. > :16:06.roof, the whole truth and nothing but the roof. You created a new Tory
:16:07. > :16:17.brand. -- Ruth the. We don't fight just as conservatives
:16:18. > :16:21.in Scotland but conservatives in the Unionist party. The echoes of the
:16:22. > :16:24.Unionist party played quite loud in this election was that they were
:16:25. > :16:28.looking for people who would unequivocally stand up for the
:16:29. > :16:32.decision we made just 20 months ago. I think that was an area we fought
:16:33. > :16:36.strongly on now we have had some success. While I recognise a win for
:16:37. > :16:41.the Scottish National party, they are now in a third term of
:16:42. > :16:44.government, and I congratulated the First Minister, what was really
:16:45. > :16:48.significant about the result is we managed to stop them having a
:16:49. > :16:54.majority. They slipped back. This idea that they didn't put a clear
:16:55. > :16:58.mandate for a referendum in their manifesto, unlike in 2011, and now
:16:59. > :17:03.they don't even have a majority that takes the second referendum off
:17:04. > :17:06.the table for five years and give Scotland's stability. You say a
:17:07. > :17:10.second referendum is off the cards and I understand the reasons why. I
:17:11. > :17:14.suggest that means unionists in the rest of the UK you would like to
:17:15. > :17:20.back Brexit can now do so without the fear of the second independence
:17:21. > :17:22.referendum? I argued all through this campaign irrespective of what
:17:23. > :17:29.happens with a referendum on Europe, that is not trigger point for a
:17:30. > :17:33.second referendum. I haven't heard anyone in the SNP argued
:17:34. > :17:41.successfully if there are was a Brexit... It is important we stay
:17:42. > :17:45.part of the union in which we export so many goods and services. I have
:17:46. > :17:51.yet to have anyone in the SNP explain it. But I look forward in
:17:52. > :17:59.the coming weeks to hear them make the argument for that. Last time the
:18:00. > :18:02.SNP were a majority government the Scottish Tories gave them crucial
:18:03. > :18:07.support on budget votes. Can you see us of doing that again? I think
:18:08. > :18:16.times move on. The SNP is no longer led by Alex Salmond... We know that.
:18:17. > :18:20.I think we will be robust. I will seek to put forward alternatives. I
:18:21. > :18:24.want to be as positive as I can be, not just crudely and blocking and
:18:25. > :18:28.questioning, although all of that is important. The debate we haven't had
:18:29. > :18:31.in Scotland for the last five years, but I want to put forward
:18:32. > :18:35.alternatives. One area I think we can make common cause is reforming
:18:36. > :18:39.education, it is a disgrace our school performances have gone back
:18:40. > :18:50.in Scotland in recent years. We used to have the best education system
:18:51. > :18:54.anywhere in the world. That is no longer the case. There is a lot I
:18:55. > :18:56.can do to try and bring the SNP onto our ground. I managed in the last
:18:57. > :18:59.parliament coming from third, in terms of school testing and money
:19:00. > :19:01.not just being handed to local authorities, I think we got a wink,
:19:02. > :19:04.teach first. There are real areas I think we can help the debate in
:19:05. > :19:09.Scotland and put forward is positive or turn at its. You shouldn't
:19:10. > :19:13.overplay your part. The SNP is still the dominant party in Holyrood, you
:19:14. > :19:16.are second, but all the other opposition parties are to the left
:19:17. > :19:20.of you. You're still a minority voice and won't be able to count on
:19:21. > :19:26.the opposition, other opposition parties ganging up on your side We
:19:27. > :19:34.are a hugely important voice precisely because of the other side
:19:35. > :19:36.in voices you have identified. The First Minister, like the Prime
:19:37. > :19:39.Minister has competing and conflicting areas of interest: how
:19:40. > :19:42.one way or another. You are right to say Nicola Sturgeon has that she
:19:43. > :19:47.wants to make Scotland the highest in the UK. The other parties are
:19:48. > :19:51.trying to drag a further left, taking more money out of the pocket
:19:52. > :19:55.of ordinary working Scots. Our voice is crucial to pull her back to the
:19:56. > :19:59.centre, saying that is not the way to look after the Beeb all working
:20:00. > :20:04.hard and deserve a break in Scotland but also not the way to look after a
:20:05. > :20:10.Scottish economy. Last month's figures, 20,000 rise in unemployment
:20:11. > :20:13.in the UK, most of which came from Scotland. Our economic growth is a
:20:14. > :20:17.fraction of the rest of the UK. We need to become a more competitive
:20:18. > :20:21.country. That is an odd and I can make very strongly. Let me ask you
:20:22. > :20:26.this, when you look at the huge powers that have been devolved
:20:27. > :20:29.Scotland, and more on their way over schools, education, hospitals,
:20:30. > :20:35.health, transport and now a chunk of tax as well, is it ever conceivable
:20:36. > :20:40.that a Scottish MP from a Scottish constituency could ever again be
:20:41. > :20:44.Prime Minister of the United given that they would have no
:20:45. > :20:50.responsibility for so many things that affect the rest of the UK? Of
:20:51. > :20:53.course. Typically in the last Labour government you had a health minister
:20:54. > :21:01.who came from Lanarkshire in John Reid you had a chance of that came
:21:02. > :21:06.from Edinburgh. Is that conceivable again, that you could have a Home
:21:07. > :21:10.Secretary from a Scottish constituency, where everything on
:21:11. > :21:13.the home front is essentially devolved to Scotland? It was
:21:14. > :21:18.devolved at the time it was being taken over by John Reid. I know he
:21:19. > :21:24.played Parliamentary bingo and got a lot of big jobs. If you have English
:21:25. > :21:30.votes for English laws, a Scottish Prime Minister wouldn't even get to
:21:31. > :21:35.vote on his own policies. Andrew, you and I have talked about this
:21:36. > :21:38.many times. You saw our Strathclyde commission report, the basis that
:21:39. > :21:43.the Smith commission, the devolution of all these powers on one of the
:21:44. > :21:47.key aspects of that, looking at great detail with constitutional
:21:48. > :21:51.expert, was to ensure it wouldn t divest Scotland away from the rest
:21:52. > :21:56.of the UK. I don't think it does. In terms of all of the big jobs, I
:21:57. > :22:00.think you will see another Scottish Prime Minister, or from Wales or
:22:01. > :22:03.Northern Ireland. Talent will out. Do you think you've Zac Goldsmith
:22:04. > :22:11.bought the kind of campaign you fought in Scotland the Conservatives
:22:12. > :22:15.might have held on to the mayor I don't qualify to talk about that,
:22:16. > :22:20.I've only been to London once this year. I knew I had a job to deliver
:22:21. > :22:23.here in Scotland. Even though I am a political geek I didn't watch the
:22:24. > :22:27.London mayoral race that closely I had a job to do the. Thank you.
:22:28. > :22:31.So Labour ended the week with a big result to feel cheerful about thanks
:22:32. > :22:33.to Sadiq Khan's thumping win over Zac Goldsmith to become
:22:34. > :22:43.The numeric macro has used his big job in office to reach out beyond
:22:44. > :22:44.the activists, which sounds like criticism of Jeremy Corbyn. He was
:22:45. > :22:49.talking to Andrew Marr earlier. We in Labour, our mission is to
:22:50. > :22:52.improve people's lives, and change We only do that
:22:53. > :22:55.by winning elections, by having a mandate
:22:56. > :22:57.to improve people's lives. What are the challenges
:22:58. > :22:58.facing Londoners? How do you tackle
:22:59. > :23:00.the housing crisis? How do you ensure we have a modern
:23:01. > :23:03.and affordable transport system How do young people get
:23:04. > :23:05.the skills of tomorrow? We only do that by speaking to those
:23:06. > :23:11.people who previously By speaking to Tory voters,
:23:12. > :23:14.to those outside of our tent. And my point is, we've got to
:23:15. > :23:17.stop talking about ourselves. Well, to discuss this we're joined
:23:18. > :23:21.from Leeds by Caroline Flint, she was of course a former minister
:23:22. > :23:31.and was in Ed Miliband's Welcome back to the programme
:23:32. > :23:34.Caroline Flint. Let me put Sadiq Khan's quote to you. So-called
:23:35. > :23:39.natural Labour voters alone will never be enough to win a general
:23:40. > :23:44.election. Have you seen any progress from Thursday's results that Jeremy
:23:45. > :23:48.Corbyn's Labour Party is making progress in appealing to beyond the
:23:49. > :23:52.faithful? We need to make a lot more progress, Andrew. Although we had a
:23:53. > :23:56.fantastic result in London with Sadiq Khan, and I have to say the
:23:57. > :24:02.Tory campaign was both shameful and disgusting. We won in Bristol with
:24:03. > :24:05.Marvin and held onto councils like Crawley, Southampton and Redditch
:24:06. > :24:10.and Hastings, where I have been many times. It is not enough. We have to
:24:11. > :24:14.show that we are a party that is competitively challenging the
:24:15. > :24:17.government. That is why, as Sadiq said in his interview in the
:24:18. > :24:22.Observer today, we have to reach out beyond the big cities and reach out
:24:23. > :24:26.to those people who voted Conservative to vote Labour. Then we
:24:27. > :24:29.can have big politics for a big election and when it. What you say
:24:30. > :24:35.to John McDonnell, been a bit too in your party, saying I think we are on
:24:36. > :24:39.a steady course for victory in 020. We are laying the foundations for
:24:40. > :24:44.that long haul victory in 2020. Is he right or wrong? I believe in
:24:45. > :24:48.honest straight talking politics. John McDonnell said in the run-up to
:24:49. > :24:53.these elections, we are looking to hang on. Looking to hang on isn t
:24:54. > :24:57.enough. This is the worst result for an opposition party after a general
:24:58. > :25:03.election in 30th. The year after Michael foot was elected we gained
:25:04. > :25:09.1000 council seats. Tony Blair 800, Ed Miliband over 800. We actually
:25:10. > :25:12.had a loss of 28. In fact, the Tories, when you look at directly
:25:13. > :25:18.contested elections, gained three. It doesn't take away from the hard
:25:19. > :25:20.work on the ground by Labour councillors, Parliamentary
:25:21. > :25:25.candidates and members in these elections, but we need to be making
:25:26. > :25:29.far more inroads to be within an opportunity to win in 2020. That is
:25:30. > :25:34.the challenge for Jeremy. He deserves the right to lead, won the
:25:35. > :25:37.election, but he has to show, what have the loan from these elections?
:25:38. > :25:41.Will he talked people like Sadiq Khan to think about how we broaden
:25:42. > :25:47.our appeal so we can be in a very strong position, 2020. How long has
:25:48. > :25:50.it got to learn these lessons? Our members were only elected in
:25:51. > :25:56.September last year. I said he won on a huge mandate. He has not only
:25:57. > :25:59.won the right to be leader, he is the leader and our members believe
:26:00. > :26:03.Labour leaders should have the time to prove themselves. But, you know
:26:04. > :26:07.we know when the election is going to be, that is something relatively
:26:08. > :26:11.new to our politics in Britain. We also know this election we have to
:26:12. > :26:14.be honest about what the positive aspects and also about what didn't
:26:15. > :26:19.work and where we need to gain ground. How long have you got?
:26:20. > :26:22.People will be looking to hear from Jeremy what he's run and how he will
:26:23. > :26:26.take us forward and they will be looking... We have elections next
:26:27. > :26:30.year and the year after, but we have to ask ourselves is a party. I think
:26:31. > :26:34.this is a really big task for Jeremy Tilse. We are having a debate about
:26:35. > :26:38.what is the Labour Party for? We have to decide, are we a party of
:26:39. > :26:41.protest or a mainstream, democratic socialist party which is
:26:42. > :26:45.competitively challenging for government? If we are the latter,
:26:46. > :26:50.which we should be, we need to have the politics and the leadership to
:26:51. > :26:55.actually talk about that much, much more and take us board. That is
:26:56. > :27:00.really important for all of us. We have to ask ourselves is well, we
:27:01. > :27:06.have ten years of opposition here. We don't need another five on top of
:27:07. > :27:09.that. John McDonnell thinks you begrudge things. He says, for
:27:10. > :27:14.goodness sake get behind the leader, it is time to put up or shut up I
:27:15. > :27:23.am someone who loves the Labour Party. I joined in 1979, I know what
:27:24. > :27:28.it's like... Put up or shut up? I am putting up. I put up in the House of
:27:29. > :27:31.Commons, where I am working with John McDonnell's team on tax
:27:32. > :27:35.transparency measures. We have a Tory party that should be absolutely
:27:36. > :27:40.on the ropes. A jet measures they had to drop on tax credits, Sunday
:27:41. > :27:45.trading they have had to drop, and I knew turned since the last general
:27:46. > :27:49.election. The education policy in tatters, the Panama papers, it goes
:27:50. > :27:56.on and on. The truth is we need to be making sure that the public know
:27:57. > :28:00.about that and we have an alternative to that. At the moment,
:28:01. > :28:03.despite all those issues facing the Tory party, we didn't make as much
:28:04. > :28:08.progress as we showed. Let's be honest about these results, let s be
:28:09. > :28:12.honest about we need to reach out beyond our core vote, just as Sadiq
:28:13. > :28:17.Khan said. I hope John McDonnell will back me on that. Lets see if we
:28:18. > :28:21.can continue with this honesty. Given Scotland is now effectively a
:28:22. > :28:28.no go area for Labour, how could you ever hope to win the 2020 election
:28:29. > :28:34.on England alone? You would need a 13 point lead, a bigger lead than
:28:35. > :28:39.Tony Blair had. That is just not conceivable. It is a massive
:28:40. > :28:42.challenge, Andrew. In Scotland are very disappointing night for
:28:43. > :28:48.Scotland. I think how Scottish friends all know that the way back
:28:49. > :28:51.for Labour will take some time. I wouldn't blame Jeremy Corbyn for
:28:52. > :28:56.what happened in Scotland either. You are right. My understanding is
:28:57. > :29:00.if we don't make the sort of comeback we need to in Scotland in
:29:01. > :29:05.the numbers were used to be able to rely on, we need to gain something
:29:06. > :29:09.like 100 seats, 100 seats in England to have a majority. We need to have
:29:10. > :29:14.that sort of talking within the party. Activists realise protests in
:29:15. > :29:17.themselves will not be enough. Labour votes won't be enough and I'm
:29:18. > :29:21.looking to Jeremy Corbyn to provide the leadership that.
:29:22. > :29:31.A final question. What you say to several Tory MPs who have said to
:29:32. > :29:36.me, and I quote, Mr Corbyn's survival is the single most
:29:37. > :29:41.important thing for Tories for 020? If we are not winning elections
:29:42. > :29:46.they will say that. In many respects, the Tories were probably
:29:47. > :29:49.relatively relieved. Despite the shameful campaign they ran in
:29:50. > :29:54.London, given everything that's been going on in government in the last
:29:55. > :29:58.eight months, they should be quite relieved in terms of the result We
:29:59. > :30:03.need to show them that Jeremy can stand up and face those criticisms,
:30:04. > :30:07.and the way he does that is by reaching out, as Sadiq Khan has
:30:08. > :30:11.done, as have many councils across the country in keeping their seats,
:30:12. > :30:14.and do the right thing for Labour. We need to move on, Caroline. Thank
:30:15. > :30:16.you. So that's the view of one former
:30:17. > :30:19.member of the Labour frontbench - we're joined now by the current
:30:20. > :30:21.shadow energy minister Clive Lewis, he's in our Norwich studio -
:30:22. > :30:30.welcome to the Sunday Politics. Morning, Andrew. Caroline Flint was
:30:31. > :30:34.saying that George Osborne's latest budget is in ruins, the Tories are
:30:35. > :30:37.tearing themselves apart over Europe, Iain Duncan Smith resigned
:30:38. > :30:42.because of what the government is doing to the working poor. The best
:30:43. > :30:49.Mr Corbyn could say was, we hung on. Is that good enough? Let's have a
:30:50. > :30:55.look at the focus of the media to -- the media and the punditry. It was
:30:56. > :31:00.issued in the Labour Party that was the core focus for you guys. You
:31:01. > :31:05.brought that on yourselves. The bottom line is, at the start of your
:31:06. > :31:09.programme, you began that the results of the Labour Party, when
:31:10. > :31:14.actually, we were up 2% in the national share vote and the Tories
:31:15. > :31:18.were down 5%. Yet you in your commentators started on how it was a
:31:19. > :31:23.result for Labour. I'm not saying it was anything to shout about. But
:31:24. > :31:27.let's look at the results. You need 13 points to win, so I would suggest
:31:28. > :31:31.that one or two points is neither here nor there was yellow Caroline
:31:32. > :31:36.Flint hit the nail on the head in that we have a massive task in front
:31:37. > :31:42.of us. But infighting is not the way forward. That is not going to help
:31:43. > :31:46.us achieve victory in 2020. We all know it is a massive uphill
:31:47. > :31:50.struggle. We need to think how we can make the best effort to win in
:31:51. > :31:56.2020, and that is what the next few weeks and months need to be about. I
:31:57. > :32:00.agree with with so much of what Sadiq Khan said in his interview.
:32:01. > :32:09.Why doesn't Jeremy Corbyn meet with him? I think he will. But he won the
:32:10. > :32:14.capital city, by 14 points. It was an incredible victory, the first
:32:15. > :32:20.Muslim leader of a major city in Europe. And Mr Corbyn, we haven t
:32:21. > :32:26.seen him anywhere near him yet. It is a fantastic victory. Sadiq Khan
:32:27. > :32:32.nominated Jeremy. He didn't vote for him, which is a brilliantly
:32:33. > :32:38.principled position. Corbyn and Khan are comrades and good friends. They
:32:39. > :32:44.have a lot to learn from each other. Sadiq Khan won because he was with
:32:45. > :32:48.Jeremy Corbyn. All the people in London who are supporting the Labour
:32:49. > :32:53.Party under Jeremy Corbyn and reaching out. I am sure that Sadiq
:32:54. > :33:00.and Jeremy will meet in the near future. It is certainly unusual
:33:01. > :33:04.Caroline Flint has just told us that the Conservatives should be happy
:33:05. > :33:09.and relieved by Thursday's results. I don't think they should. In Exeter
:33:10. > :33:15.they lost four seats. In Ipswich, there were seats we didn't even win
:33:16. > :33:20.in 97. Their share of the vote is down 5%. They didn't make the games
:33:21. > :33:24.expected in Wales. I don't think it is a fantastic result for them at
:33:25. > :33:34.all. I expect the Conservatives will try to turn the focus back on to
:33:35. > :33:37.Labour, but I don't think they've got anything to crow about either at
:33:38. > :33:39.the moment. What do you say to Ian Murray, the Scottish Secretary, the
:33:40. > :33:43.only Labour MP in Scotland. He says, I don't think the public see the UK
:33:44. > :33:50.Labour Party led by Jeremy Corbyn as being a credible party of future
:33:51. > :33:55.government in 2020. I listened to the whole interview, and I respect
:33:56. > :34:01.Ian Murray great real. I heard his statement. I think he was saying,
:34:02. > :34:05.basically, where we are as a party at the moment isn't good enough I
:34:06. > :34:09.don't think you'll find anyone in the Labour Party who would disagree
:34:10. > :34:13.with that. We need to move forward and consolidate. These results were
:34:14. > :34:18.not the disaster that you and the punditry were predicting. We were
:34:19. > :34:24.told 150 or 200 seats lost -- would be lost. We were told Jeremy Corbyn
:34:25. > :34:29.wouldn't win, and then he won with a landslide. We won -- we heard that
:34:30. > :34:35.the old by-election would be a disaster. And he won. I think the
:34:36. > :34:45.thing to think about now is that politics is in flux. In the US, we
:34:46. > :34:50.have a socialist running Hillary Clinton to the wire, but then you
:34:51. > :34:53.have Donald Trump standing as well. People are concerned and angry, and
:34:54. > :34:58.things are changing, and the punditry needs to take that into
:34:59. > :35:03.account and reflect that things are changing. We will take that into
:35:04. > :35:08.account. I never use the word disaster to talk about Labour's
:35:09. > :35:14.performance on Thursday. Let's stick with that. I put to you that surely
:35:15. > :35:20.the real lesson from Scotland is this - if you continue to attack
:35:21. > :35:25.north of the border, as you have been, you need to do better in
:35:26. > :35:31.England than even Tony Blair did in 97, and that, I put to you, is
:35:32. > :35:36.frankly fantasy. Let's look at Scotland. It was a very difficult
:35:37. > :35:41.night for us. I would rather you looked at England and tell me how
:35:42. > :35:46.you will do well. This is the issue - what we have done in this weeks
:35:47. > :35:53.election is consolidate our vote in 2015 and improve it by 2%. We now
:35:54. > :35:58.need to move forward. We now have next to no chance of winning in 2020
:35:59. > :36:02.if we remain a divided house, and that is what has happened at the
:36:03. > :36:09.moment. What we can all learn from Sadiq was explaining is -- in his
:36:10. > :36:14.interview is that we have consolidated our vote in 2015 and
:36:15. > :36:18.improved it, and now we have to move on small businesses, to those who
:36:19. > :36:23.are affected by the government cuts on public services. We need to reach
:36:24. > :36:26.out to people who have voted Conservative in the past. I think it
:36:27. > :36:32.is a message that Jeremy Corbyn has two and will listen to. But the key
:36:33. > :36:35.thing is that a house divided has no chance of being able to do that in
:36:36. > :36:39.2020. Thank you for joining us. It's just gone 11.35am -
:36:40. > :36:41.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:36:42. > :36:44.in Scotland, who leave us now we're going to be talking
:36:45. > :36:49.about a big week ahead First, though, the Sunday
:36:50. > :37:02.Politics where you are. Sadiq Khan gained more votes
:37:03. > :37:08.than his two predecessors managed in their victories -
:37:09. > :37:13.1.3 million when you take into account first and second
:37:14. > :37:15.preferences. People are saying that does
:37:16. > :37:18.effectively give him the biggest ever personal mandate
:37:19. > :37:20.in UK electoral history. And it is being read not just
:37:21. > :37:23.as a rejection of Conservative tactics during the campaign,
:37:24. > :37:25.but giving a real endorsement to his platform of more housing
:37:26. > :37:28.cheaper transport, more Here with me for the duration
:37:29. > :37:35.this morning Labour MP for Stoke Newington Diane Abbott;
:37:36. > :37:38.and Greg Hands, Conservative MP This morning the new mayor has
:37:39. > :37:47.described his opponent's campaign People were approaching me
:37:48. > :37:51.during the campaign, dozens and dozens and dozens
:37:52. > :37:54.of parents, uncles and aunties, grandparents, saying look,
:37:55. > :37:57.we've done well in business or in accountancy or in law,
:37:58. > :38:00.and we're encouraging our children and nephews and nieces,
:38:01. > :38:02.our grandchildren to get But after the way we've seen you be
:38:03. > :38:08.treated, why should we? After we've seen what you've gone
:38:09. > :38:11.through, why should we? I've spent my entire
:38:12. > :38:14.life encouraging those in minority communities,
:38:15. > :38:17.encouraging those underrepresented to get involved in civic
:38:18. > :38:19.society, to get involved I've been fighting extremism
:38:20. > :38:23.and radicalisation all my life. I think when you conduct politics,
:38:24. > :38:26.you should conduct it in a positive way, to energise and enthuse people
:38:27. > :38:30.to get involved in politics. But let's just remind
:38:31. > :38:35.ourselves how we got here - I therefore declare Sadiq Khan to be
:38:36. > :38:42.elected as the new Mayor of London. More votes than anybody else to hold
:38:43. > :38:48.the job and the highest turnout London has today chosen hope over
:38:49. > :39:00.fear, and unity over division. It didn't take long for Tories
:39:01. > :39:04.to turn on their own campaign. Former Cabinet minister Sayeed Warsi
:39:05. > :39:08.tweeted it had been "appalling" Even Zac Goldsmith's sister said it
:39:09. > :39:13.didn't reflect the brother she knew. When Boris got elected we went
:39:14. > :39:17.from more unified view of London, and it's a real shame
:39:18. > :39:20.that the politics drifted back And that's what you feel they were,
:39:21. > :39:25.was nasty and divisive? There was a tinge of that
:39:26. > :39:28.that was unworthy of Zac and unworthy of the Conservative
:39:29. > :39:31.Party and unworthy of Sadiq Khan. To his credit, I think Sadiq Khan
:39:32. > :39:34.handled it with great The location of his swearing-in
:39:35. > :39:39.ceremony was quite deliberately I wanted to do this signing
:39:40. > :39:45.in ceremony here, in the very heart of our city, surrounded
:39:46. > :39:52.by Londoners of all backgrounds Sadiq Khan is now the most powerful
:39:53. > :39:58.Labour politician in the country - something he's achieved
:39:59. > :40:00.by being more than willing on the campaign trail to contradict
:40:01. > :40:07.his party's leadership. Jeremy Corbyn didn't
:40:08. > :40:08.even make it down here Well, it's an open invite, I'm not
:40:09. > :40:15.sure what Jeremy was doing today, we'll have to find out
:40:16. > :40:17.what he was doing. There are people here
:40:18. > :40:21.from all parties, not just Labour. I'm really proud, as
:40:22. > :40:23.a mayor, I've done that. And early signs are that the team
:40:24. > :40:26.running City Hall will be filled with the big names
:40:27. > :40:29.of the New Labour era. Oona King, former Home Secretary
:40:30. > :40:31.Jacqui Smith and even Andrew Adonis, one of Tony Blair's closest allies
:40:32. > :40:34.who left the Labour Party last year in order to work
:40:35. > :40:36.with the Conservative Government. So, will Sadiq Khan's City Hall
:40:37. > :40:40.inevitably now be seen as an alternative vision
:40:41. > :40:42.of what the Labour Party could look like, in particular
:40:43. > :40:46.when compared to Jeremy Corbyn? Sadiq has been absolutely
:40:47. > :40:48.clear, he's running Where he disagrees with
:40:49. > :40:56.Jeremy Corbyn, he's going to be I think that the tradition that
:40:57. > :41:01.Sadiq will follow in London is that of the great city mayors
:41:02. > :41:03.in the United States. He'll be on the detail here,
:41:04. > :41:07.he'll be less of a factional figure in national politics,
:41:08. > :41:08.and he's certainly not I don't think he's looking
:41:09. > :41:13.for the next job, I think he's very focused on the job that
:41:14. > :41:15.he's just inherited. Which may very well be the case
:41:16. > :41:18.but there were still speculation at City Hall about what Sadiq Khan's
:41:19. > :41:23.next job might be when the votes The mayoralty can be the making
:41:24. > :41:29.of a politician, that's been the case with Boris,
:41:30. > :41:32.and I suspect that will be the case Will we see him lead
:41:33. > :41:35.the Labour Party now? I think it's certainly possible
:41:36. > :41:38.it's certainly possible. He will want to use it, I imagine,
:41:39. > :41:41.as a stepping stone to something In the meantime London's new mayor
:41:42. > :41:49.will have to make good on his promise of tackling
:41:50. > :41:53.the capital's housing problems. They will almost certainly
:41:54. > :41:54.think themselves to have The commitment is to try and build
:41:55. > :42:01.up to 50,000 homes a year, make many of them affordable -
:42:02. > :42:06.these are promises which if they are not fulfilled,
:42:07. > :42:10.will come back to haunt those who made them, and certainly
:42:11. > :42:13.in the case of Sadiq Khan as the winner, he's going to have
:42:14. > :42:16.to try and find a way of getting all the boroughs to double
:42:17. > :42:19.the amount of house building And by the way, to get
:42:20. > :42:23.lots of cheap housing, as well. What ever the years ahead may hold,
:42:24. > :42:29.the headline this weekend is Londoners have just made
:42:30. > :42:33.Sadiq Khan arguably the most powerful British Muslim
:42:34. > :42:52.in all of history. Diane Abbott, was this that
:42:53. > :42:58.surprising? It shows that Labour's show was broadly the same in last
:42:59. > :43:01.year 's general election? He did face an exceptionally nasty
:43:02. > :43:06.campaign. I was with Ken Clarke on Thursday, and he said that he
:43:07. > :43:13.suspected there would be some one nation Tories, and Muslim Tories,
:43:14. > :43:18.who in response to the campaign would either not vote or vote for
:43:19. > :43:23.Sadiq. I think it will inflict long-term damage on the Tories. And
:43:24. > :43:30.it didn't even win. It might have been a question of one in one out,
:43:31. > :43:35.it was said, because there was also Ken Livingstone the week before with
:43:36. > :43:40.the question of anti-Semitism. There was also an issue with what Ken
:43:41. > :43:44.chooses to say, and ex-politician, and also the Prime Minister, the
:43:45. > :43:50.leader of the Conservative Party, standing up in the House of Commons
:43:51. > :43:54.twice to put up forward the clue in sinew and that Sadiq might be some
:43:55. > :44:00.kind of Muslim extremist. I have never seen that before. I have never
:44:01. > :44:09.seen a Prime Minister promote that kind of intime of rhetoric. Do you
:44:10. > :44:12.accept that? Did you accept that the responsibility for the defeat and
:44:13. > :44:17.the tone of the campaign, right from the top, the man who use it behind
:44:18. > :44:23.every week at PMQs? I don't accept that. Throughout the campaign we
:44:24. > :44:27.were asking legitimate questions, which have now been answered. Let me
:44:28. > :44:31.congratulate Sadiq Khan on his victory. We look forward to him
:44:32. > :44:36.working with us. In government, we have a big agenda for London. We are
:44:37. > :44:41.looking forward to working with the new met of London to deliver
:44:42. > :44:46.housing, transport improvements air quality improvements and so on. I
:44:47. > :44:53.think the thrust of the campaign was actually about Zach Goldsmith's
:44:54. > :44:56.programme for London. And that was against Sadiq Khan's programme for
:44:57. > :45:01.London, which proved to be more popular, which is one of the reasons
:45:02. > :45:07.why he won the election. London has been a difficult place for the
:45:08. > :45:09.Conservative Party. In last year's Enrile election, where Labour
:45:10. > :45:15.performed quite poorly, the Labour vote went up in London by 7% at the
:45:16. > :45:18.time it was static and the rest of the country. London has been
:45:19. > :45:23.difficult for us in recent elections.
:45:24. > :45:31.Do you regret the campaign in anyway? The bigger issue on the
:45:32. > :45:35.doorstep was none of this. Do you regret it at all? Any part of the
:45:36. > :45:40.way the campaign was handled at all? In terms of the campaign, of course.
:45:41. > :45:44.Whole range of issues crop up in a campaign. On the issue of the focus
:45:45. > :45:49.from the Prime Minister down on links with extremists? I disagree
:45:50. > :45:54.with the premise of the question, I don't believe that was the focus of
:45:55. > :45:59.the campaign. I believe that is the focus of the debrief or analysis of
:46:00. > :46:06.commentators since the election but you are right, a week ago the
:46:07. > :46:11.election was dominated by only row with Labour and anti-Semitism. If
:46:12. > :46:16.the Tories were just asking reasonable questions, why has the
:46:17. > :46:21.campaign been condemned by Ken Clarke, and a Tory member of the
:46:22. > :46:25.House of Lords? Tories would be queueing up to distance themselves
:46:26. > :46:30.from this campaign... I don't accept that. If you look at what having was
:46:31. > :46:33.saying, we do have to look at some aspects of the campaign. But I don't
:46:34. > :46:37.think he was condemning the campaign. I was with Ken Clarke on
:46:38. > :46:41.Friday. You say there is nothing to learn question what from every
:46:42. > :46:45.campaign there is always things to learn, even from the most humble
:46:46. > :46:50.by-election all the way through to general election. In politics you
:46:51. > :46:54.must always learn from campaigns, particularly unsuccessful campaigns.
:46:55. > :46:56.My career in politics, some of my first campaigns were quite
:46:57. > :46:59.unsuccessful. You learn from those in stakes. I will not pass
:47:00. > :47:04.particular comment. One of the issues I will say that cropped up
:47:05. > :47:08.was the EU, which has been an element we haven't really focused on
:47:09. > :47:14.which is a big backdrop to this campaign. Let's not for this moment.
:47:15. > :47:18.Zac Goldsmith has had a long principled position on the EU which
:47:19. > :47:23.I respect, but it hasn't helped and that cropped up on the doorstep far
:47:24. > :47:28.more than anything about religion or race or anything in relation to
:47:29. > :47:31.that. Diane Abbott, it was important for the Conservatives would be
:47:32. > :47:35.important for anyone to raise questions and explore aspects of a
:47:36. > :47:43.man's life if they are going to represent this capital city? Sure.
:47:44. > :47:46.But it is not Labour people it is Tories, and in particular black and
:47:47. > :47:50.ethnic Tories who have complained about this campaign. Some of them
:47:51. > :47:57.have written that they couldn't bring themselves to vote. It isn't
:47:58. > :48:02.just the stuff about Sadiq possibly being a Muslim extremist, but those
:48:03. > :48:06.different leaflets to Sikhs, Hindus, which particularly upset the Asian
:48:07. > :48:10.community in London because they felt it was both patronising and
:48:11. > :48:16.wrong to send leaflets to Hindus about Sadiq is going to take your
:48:17. > :48:19.gold jewellery and whatever it was. That was particularly nasty and
:48:20. > :48:23.upset a lot of people. What impact is that going have? Will you be
:48:24. > :48:28.fighting elections in London in the next two or three is? I don't agree
:48:29. > :48:32.with the premise of what Diane is saying. I don't that was on the
:48:33. > :48:36.doorstep. On the doorstep these issues were not a big part of the
:48:37. > :48:40.campaign. The issues that were a big part of the campaign were housing,
:48:41. > :48:49.transport, Ed quality and the European Union. You know how
:48:50. > :48:51.important the issue crime, safety, the terror threat is. Is London
:48:52. > :48:54.where safe now because of Sadiq Khan as mayor? I think London is as safe
:48:55. > :48:57.as it can be, with the government working together with American
:48:58. > :49:01.London, the Metropolitan Police the structures are replaced to make sure
:49:02. > :49:08.that is the case. Your position is the same as Home always answering it
:49:09. > :49:12.with in terms of the government With Sadiq Khan as mayor, is London
:49:13. > :49:17.on safe question what I have no concerns with Sadiq as mayor in
:49:18. > :49:23.relation to safety concerns in London. The Mayor of London must
:49:24. > :49:26.work with the government, with the Metropolitan Police. I am looking
:49:27. > :49:32.forward to us all working together to ensure London remains as safe as
:49:33. > :49:36.it possibly can be from terrorism. Do you expect, conversely, Sadiq
:49:37. > :49:39.Khan to take a slightly more critical, could we expect tense
:49:40. > :49:43.relations with the Metropolitan Police? Not just given his past as a
:49:44. > :49:50.lawyer representing people who have allegedly been in dispute with the
:49:51. > :49:54.police, but because generally as a lawyer he has taken a stance against
:49:55. > :50:00.patent search on things at that I don't think so. Sir Bernard Bogen
:50:01. > :50:05.was at his installation. -- Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe. I think they
:50:06. > :50:13.will want to work closely together for one of Ken's best moments as
:50:14. > :50:17.mayor came when he worked closely with the police. You have some
:50:18. > :50:23.control of the purse strings. Do you think now we have a Labour mayor,
:50:24. > :50:28.you won't provide as much up to the city, given the Struthers structure
:50:29. > :50:33.it need? The Chancellor and I provided a lot of funding for
:50:34. > :50:37.London. A big package on TFL, 1 billion over the course of the
:50:38. > :50:44.spending review. A big package on housing, to provide for low-cost
:50:45. > :50:48.shared ownership, shared homes, state regeneration and so on. We
:50:49. > :50:53.published the National air quality plans. A lot of action coming from
:50:54. > :50:57.the government, in relation to London, even ahead of the election.
:50:58. > :51:04.You're not going to punish Londoners for voting Labour? Of course we will
:51:05. > :51:07.work with the new mayor in the interest of London and making sure
:51:08. > :51:12.Londoners get the best possible deal. I say that as a London MP
:51:13. > :51:15.Chief Secretary to the Treasury I look at all the money going into
:51:16. > :51:23.London and am satisfied London is getting a good deal. A good deal. I
:51:24. > :51:27.hope they don't punish Londoners for voting Labour. Why would they, Z is
:51:28. > :51:32.very important to any government? It would be wrong and
:51:33. > :51:36.counter-productive but we are going to have to wait and see. It would be
:51:37. > :51:40.wrong and that is why we're not going to do it. It is incredibly
:51:41. > :51:45.important. London is one of big engines of this country, going
:51:46. > :51:49.forward. The government absolute director Clive is the importance of
:51:50. > :51:56.London, and that is right at the core of a lot of the debate. --
:51:57. > :52:00.absolutely core. It would be a fair expectation of Londoners to expect
:52:01. > :52:04.help from the government to keep affairs down because you gave that
:52:05. > :52:06.to Boris Johnson in the last three years of the Conservative
:52:07. > :52:10.administration? It would be fair for Londoners to expect that? We have a
:52:11. > :52:16.very generous settlement for transport of London up until 20 1.
:52:17. > :52:21.In terms of the money that is given by the government to transport for
:52:22. > :52:25.London, it is up to them area macro and transport for London to decide
:52:26. > :52:31.how to spend that money. We have given money to Crossrail as well two
:52:32. > :52:34.months ago. Our commitment to transport in London cannot be
:52:35. > :52:38.questioned. With all the attention on the mayoral contest it was easy
:52:39. > :52:41.to forget the London assembly also had its election.
:52:42. > :52:44.Raphael Sheridan has been taking a look at what happened.
:52:45. > :52:46.The Assembly's main political clout rests in its ability
:52:47. > :52:48.to amend the mayor's budget, but this requires
:52:49. > :52:51.However, on the night, Labour stopped any chance of that
:52:52. > :52:54.happening by retaining 12 of the 25 seats.
:52:55. > :52:56.The Conservatives were down one, on 8.
:52:57. > :52:59.The Greens retained their two seats, with two new Assembly members,
:53:00. > :53:03.and Ukip made what Nigel Farage called "a breakthrough",
:53:04. > :53:07.winning two seats, the first they have held since 2004.
:53:08. > :53:10.Well, it's a breakthrough, and what's behind it is we are
:53:11. > :53:14.a very different party to the one that stood here last time around.
:53:15. > :53:16.We've made big gains in the European elections, general elections,
:53:17. > :53:18.local elections all over the United Kingdom.
:53:19. > :53:23.But it was a poor night for the Liberal Democrats,
:53:24. > :53:25.who were reduced to just one assembly member -
:53:26. > :53:27.its mayoral candidate, Caroline Pidgeon.
:53:28. > :53:30.So whilst there might be new faces on the Assembly,
:53:31. > :53:32.perhaps what this election suggests is that, despite mixed support
:53:33. > :53:34.the Labour nationally, London has reasserted itself
:53:35. > :53:49.That is the shape of the body that hold Sadiq Khan to come.
:53:50. > :53:54.We are beginning to get a sense of what his administration might be.
:53:55. > :53:59.There might be people like Lord Adonis, who might come and be an
:54:00. > :54:04.adviser, a Blairite individual like that being a key figure, what do you
:54:05. > :54:14.think? I think it would be great to bring Lord Adonis in. Anyone who is
:54:15. > :54:19.mayor would call on Lord Adonis for study gets things done. Do you get
:54:20. > :54:24.the impression Sadiq Khan's administration might look fairly
:54:25. > :54:29.Blairite and moderate impaired yours all Jeremy Corbyn's? I think Sadiq
:54:30. > :54:35.Khan will do what is best for London. I am confident Sadiq will do
:54:36. > :54:37.that. Has anyone let you know where Jeremy was during that splendid
:54:38. > :54:43.service at Southwark Cathedral yesterday? I think he was on his way
:54:44. > :54:46.to Bristol. I know this is not West of England programme, we had a
:54:47. > :54:54.fantastic result with Marvin becoming the Labour mayor of
:54:55. > :54:58.Bristol. But he wasn't there? I think you will find that Jeremy and
:54:59. > :55:03.Sadiq are going to be working closely together. Jeremy is not just
:55:04. > :55:05.the leader of the party but a long-standing MP and has a
:55:06. > :55:11.particular interest in issues which will be at the heart of Sadiq's
:55:12. > :55:14.programme. Tech three housing. Is it possible he wasn't there because he
:55:15. > :55:16.doesn't like the way and maybe you don't either, that Sadiq Khan has
:55:17. > :55:22.distanced himself in the campaign from him? And that is not
:55:23. > :55:29.respectful, doesn't recognise Jeremy Corbyn's mandate? That is a media
:55:30. > :55:33.live. Jeremy and Sadiq will work closely together, what have to work
:55:34. > :55:37.closely together. The party in London will expect that and that is
:55:38. > :55:42.what will happen. What do you think Sadiq Khan should do in terms of
:55:43. > :55:45.administration? I think that is a question better put to Sadiq Khan.
:55:46. > :55:49.I'm sure he will be working closely with the government on a number of
:55:50. > :55:52.these really important issues important to Londoners across the
:55:53. > :55:58.board. I am looking forward to speaking to him. What about people
:55:59. > :56:05.like Lord Adonis, Jacqui Smith? That is a decision for Sadiq Khan. Lord
:56:06. > :56:09.Adonis he works with very closely. He has in very capable in the work
:56:10. > :56:12.he has done for the National infrastructure committee. It is up
:56:13. > :56:17.to Sadiq Khan. He has that mandate. It is up to him to deliver that
:56:18. > :56:22.Would it be another indication perhaps Sadiq Khan was as extremist
:56:23. > :56:27.as some might have portrayed him? Again, I said disagree with the
:56:28. > :56:32.premise in that suggestion. The government will work with
:56:33. > :56:34.whoever the London mayor is. Sadiq Khan, whatever political party, in
:56:35. > :56:40.the interests of Londoners and the country. People are going to
:56:41. > :56:44.constantly now at the two of them, the individuals, Jeremy Corbyn and
:56:45. > :56:48.Sadiq Khan and find differences it's inevitable. People are going to
:56:49. > :56:54.point out that he was an electoral winner. What was a winner in London,
:56:55. > :56:59.is what is always a winner in London, the Labour Party. We had
:57:00. > :57:03.fantastic results, even last in a bad general election. I will say
:57:04. > :57:08.this, I was all over London in the run-up and on the day, from 7-1 at
:57:09. > :57:11.night and there were very many people giving me the thumbs up and
:57:12. > :57:16.coming to me in the street who wanted to win this for Jeremy. Not
:57:17. > :57:21.everybody, but people wanted a good result for Jeremy London. How much
:57:22. > :57:26.do think it was an important factor? Sadiq Khan says success has many
:57:27. > :57:31.parents. Which parent was more important question mark I wouldn't
:57:32. > :57:37.like to say but there were a lot of activists working their socks off
:57:38. > :57:40.for Sadiq macro. Andrew was talking to Caroline Flint earlier. Sadiq
:57:41. > :57:43.Khan said we will be never trusted to govern unless we reach out and
:57:44. > :57:48.engage with all voters, regardless of background. It has been very
:57:49. > :57:52.clearly interpreted as having to be much more inclusive than the
:57:53. > :58:01.messaging around Labour led by Jeremy Corbyn. Every London MP, as I
:58:02. > :58:06.am and as Jeremy is, an average property in Hackney now costs ?
:58:07. > :58:09.million. I can't win Hackney and Jeremy can't win Islington on the
:58:10. > :58:13.basis of people living in council estates. It is naturally the case in
:58:14. > :58:20.these... You supported the mansion tax? Did I? I think I expressed very
:58:21. > :58:24.clearly my reservations about the mansion tax. You have to be
:58:25. > :58:31.inclusive to win seats in London. Jeremy is inclusive and Sadiq will
:58:32. > :58:34.be. Is this quite a problem for the Conservatives, is Sadiq Khan really
:58:35. > :58:39.Jeremy Corbyn's man question that was thrust of the campaign up until
:58:40. > :58:43.now. How you approach this? I think he is going to work with us and we
:58:44. > :58:49.will work with him, in delivering for London. In terms of the internal
:58:50. > :58:53.Labour warfare going on, that has been going on for the last year or
:58:54. > :58:56.longer, I think that is a problem for Labour and not really a problem
:58:57. > :58:59.for the Conservatives on the government. We will be getting on
:59:00. > :59:04.with governing the country and leave the internal squabbling to the
:59:05. > :59:08.Labour Party. You worked really hard in your seat for years and years.
:59:09. > :59:16.Quite urban, although as a lovely postcode in Fulham, you have set
:59:17. > :59:21.back, the Conservative cause has been set back by this campaign? I
:59:22. > :59:25.don't agree. I don't think the issues you have mentioned were the
:59:26. > :59:31.issues cropping up on the issues were the bread and butter issues and
:59:32. > :59:35.I will say it again, the European Union referendum, which seems in
:59:36. > :59:39.Congress but a lot of people in west London, which are overwhelmingly
:59:40. > :59:44.parts of London, most pro-remain part of Britain were saying they had
:59:45. > :59:48.problems without candidate because of his position on the EU. We have
:59:49. > :59:51.run out of time. That is an issue we will be exploring in the next few
:59:52. > :59:53.weeks. Thank you for joining us Andrew, from here in London, back to
:59:54. > :00:12.you. Welcome back. The panel is
:00:13. > :00:17.assembled, and we will be talking about the EU referendum shortly
:00:18. > :00:21.particularly about Tory splits in that referendum. First, let's get a
:00:22. > :00:27.reaction to what you have been hearing on the show. Caroline Flint
:00:28. > :00:31.was very interesting. She said the things that the moderates have said
:00:32. > :00:36.before, we will need to do better than this, for example. She also
:00:37. > :00:42.repeated the Tom Watson line, which is that our members think that he
:00:43. > :00:46.deserves more time. I'm not even sure that if he had lost London
:00:47. > :00:51.there would have been a coup. There was lots of talk and rumbles, but
:00:52. > :00:56.there is going to be this one this year for sure. The argument from the
:00:57. > :00:59.moderates is that he needs more time because of the mandate. At no point
:01:00. > :01:07.have the Labour voters who voted for Jeremy Corbyn going to say, time is
:01:08. > :01:10.up now. In 2020 when Labour go to a landslide defeat, they will still
:01:11. > :01:15.not think there was an argument for Corbyn not to be leader. There is
:01:16. > :01:20.nothing to be gained by waiting and everything to be lost. When I hear
:01:21. > :01:26.about people talking about the need for unity and lack of squabbling, it
:01:27. > :01:30.did remind me of the appeals that used to be made among Tories during
:01:31. > :01:33.the Maastricht debacle in the early 90s, but it never happened, of
:01:34. > :01:40.course. When there are divisions, you can't hide them. This drama is
:01:41. > :01:45.being played out in public. Tom is right. What the so-called moderates
:01:46. > :01:49.are doing now is much more sensible, which is to say, there won't be a
:01:50. > :01:54.coup. The hints that there might be have stopped. There will not be a
:01:55. > :02:01.coup for now, and they are framing it very sensibly with that Watson
:02:02. > :02:05.line, patience. He has this mandate from last September. It's far too
:02:06. > :02:09.early to challenge the mandate when he is still popular with the
:02:10. > :02:15.membership. But let's frame it to see whether he can be an election
:02:16. > :02:21.winner, and that is fair. If he isn't an election winner, they hope
:02:22. > :02:24.at some point to persuade the membership... That they will not
:02:25. > :02:29.persuade the membership. The polls told the members he would not be an
:02:30. > :02:34.election winner and they voted for him anyway. What was always not a
:02:35. > :02:41.feasible option to them, although some were contemplating it, was
:02:42. > :02:48.moving now. It's too early. There is a caveat there, which is that there
:02:49. > :02:51.is no electoral trigger in 2017 He will not be electorally tested in
:02:52. > :02:54.2017, as it is all about the shires. With the local elections over
:02:55. > :02:56.you can expect the referendum campaign to get as hot as a Sunday
:02:57. > :02:59.afternoon in early May. And, in case you'd forgotten, this
:03:00. > :03:03.is an argument which has pitched former close Cabinet allies
:03:04. > :03:05.against one another. Here's Justice Secretary Michael
:03:06. > :03:07.Gove and Chancellor George Osborne They are giving part of the economic
:03:08. > :03:19.case for each side of the debate. If we look at the arguments that
:03:20. > :03:23.are made now about how Britain might suffer outside the European Union
:03:24. > :03:25.economic play, they are all arguments that are a reprise,
:03:26. > :03:28.a rerun of the original case that was made against staying
:03:29. > :03:30.outside the single currency. But more than that, you can see how
:03:31. > :03:33.countries which are outside the European Union are able to forge
:03:34. > :03:36.trade deals and to grow faster One of the striking things
:03:37. > :03:43.about the EU, is that is has brought economic insecurity and massive
:03:44. > :03:56.youth unemployment to countries I'm pretty clear that there will be
:03:57. > :04:01.a significant hit to the value of people's homes and to the cost of
:04:02. > :04:06.mortgages. That's one example of the kind of economic impact that we get
:04:07. > :04:12.from leaving the youth. The Leave campaign is today saying they would
:04:13. > :04:16.leave the single market. For me that is an absolutely catastrophic
:04:17. > :04:20.economic mistake our country. Michael Gove said this morning to
:04:21. > :04:26.Andrew Marr that the relations between the warring Tory cabinet
:04:27. > :04:34.ministers were still cordial. Do you believe them, or have a squadron of
:04:35. > :04:38.pigs just flown over the studio Of course it isn't cordial. No more
:04:39. > :04:42.than what is going on in the Labour Party right now. There is this
:04:43. > :04:47.debate going on. I have wanted a referendum for many years on this
:04:48. > :04:50.issue. It is extraordinary that we have just had the Chancellor of the
:04:51. > :04:54.Exchequer, who has supported the idea of the EU referendum, saying it
:04:55. > :05:00.is catastrophic the dash it would be catastrophic. If one of the options
:05:01. > :05:06.is catastrophic, how irresponsible to have it. In September, they were
:05:07. > :05:11.saying, we haven't finished the negotiations yet and we don't know
:05:12. > :05:16.which way we are going to go. He either lied then, or he is lying
:05:17. > :05:21.now. Which is it? Has this not turned out to be more rancorous
:05:22. > :05:27.even much more rancorous, than Mr Cameron and George Osborne ever
:05:28. > :05:32.envisaged to three months ago. If you go back to the row we were
:05:33. > :05:37.initially having in January about collective responsibility, which is,
:05:38. > :05:46.will Cameron allow or not allow his cabinet to campaign for leave, and
:05:47. > :05:51.he lost that one. But in May, using key had a point. Michael Gove, Boris
:05:52. > :05:58.Johnson, big hitters doing immense damage to the Tory brand and to Tory
:05:59. > :06:02.unity. Things bubbling up of late are the way that ministers like
:06:03. > :06:07.Priti Patel going for issues like NHS funding. We can pay the NHS more
:06:08. > :06:11.if we left the EU, which means we are not paying enough. That hits
:06:12. > :06:18.right at the heart of government policies. The moment collective
:06:19. > :06:23.responsibility ends, a spell that is cast over us that they all agree
:06:24. > :06:29.with everybody about everything we never see it in the same way again.
:06:30. > :06:36.In 75 with Harold Wilson - will you remember that? And never again they
:06:37. > :06:41.say that Mr Benn and Mr Wilson and all those people were on the same
:06:42. > :06:47.song sheet. He very clever Rees said an agreement to differ -- very
:06:48. > :06:55.cleverly said. But it was the differing that stood out. We all
:06:56. > :06:59.were two young! But Harold Wilson never played the prominent part in
:07:00. > :07:08.the campaign that David Cameron has played. He kind of stood back from
:07:09. > :07:14.it all. Very clever. But also, using the government's power, it has
:07:15. > :07:17.turned nasty because of the way that the government's Remain side has
:07:18. > :07:22.played it. And some of the ridiculous claims that have been
:07:23. > :07:28.made. People come up to me all the time and say, wide you think this?
:07:29. > :07:33.We want facts. People are crying out for the facts. The Chancellor saying
:07:34. > :07:38.it is going to be catastrophic is absolute and utter nonsense. We know
:07:39. > :07:43.that because the Prime Minister said last year himself that it wouldn't
:07:44. > :07:46.be. Michael Gove said today that he wasn't bothered about being part of
:07:47. > :07:51.the single market. Given that the economic debate is... If you look at
:07:52. > :07:55.the private polling they are doing, the Remain side think they are
:07:56. > :08:02.winning the economic argument. The Leave side think that they will win
:08:03. > :08:06.on immigration, controlling borders and national sovereignty and so on.
:08:07. > :08:10.To say that it doesn't matter if we are in the single market, even if
:08:11. > :08:21.there is a price to pay, could come to haunt the Leave side. I think it
:08:22. > :08:30.is an error. When in the Scottish referendum campaign, Alex Salmond
:08:31. > :08:35.was fudging over the currency issue, the fact that he fudged it meant
:08:36. > :08:39.that he could never say what would actually happen. I think a lot of
:08:40. > :08:43.people will be bothered about being out of the single market, including
:08:44. > :08:47.a lot of their natural supporters, and some business people. I think
:08:48. > :08:50.they are losing the debate on the economy, and that will be more
:08:51. > :08:57.pivotal in the end. The ordinary response to the Remain campaigners
:08:58. > :09:04.about being in the single market is... If you seriously think that
:09:05. > :09:10.BMW is going to go to Angela Merkel and say that they are happy to have
:09:11. > :09:18.3% WTO tariffs to our biggest market in the UK, that is insane. Gordon
:09:19. > :09:23.Brown has been brought out for the Remain campaign. He had an
:09:24. > :09:28.intervention in the Scottish referendum. I wonder if it could be
:09:29. > :09:33.a repeat for months, because I wonder how much Mr Brown resonates
:09:34. > :09:37.south of the border? You would be tempted to think absolutely not
:09:38. > :09:43.because Gordon Brown is still a hugely respected figure in Scotland,
:09:44. > :09:52.perhaps less in England. But the key voters, the undecideds, art those
:09:53. > :09:58.middle ranking people. Not those posh people or the people who have
:09:59. > :10:01.made up their minds to leave. The public sector worker, perhaps,
:10:02. > :10:06.middle ranking people. They could crucially play a row role in
:10:07. > :10:13.organising -- galvanising Labour voters. How do you persuade them
:10:14. > :10:18.enough to care? Referendums are dangerous for Prime Minister. They
:10:19. > :10:27.produce wacky sequences. David Cameron was a king for Jeremy Corbyn
:10:28. > :10:32.to do well when he was making a speech in support of staying in
:10:33. > :10:35.That is what happens in referendums, you become desperate for your
:10:36. > :10:38.previous enemies to survive and flourish. The Labour vote is
:10:39. > :10:46.important. If that doesn't come out, it would be disastrous for Remain.
:10:47. > :10:51.And people in favour of Brexit are going to be more keen to vote
:10:52. > :10:55.because they feel more passionately. It is difficult to be passionate
:10:56. > :11:03.about remaining in the EU. And those who are passionate about coming out
:11:04. > :11:08.are quite eurosceptic. -- about staying in our quite eurosceptic. Mr
:11:09. > :11:15.Cameron and Mr Osborne would put themselves in that category. The EU
:11:16. > :11:22.is constantly being reformed. But not in the direction we want to And
:11:23. > :11:25.the heads of MI5 and MI6 supported staying in this morning. George
:11:26. > :11:32.Osborne wants to play the security card. Whether they are right or
:11:33. > :11:35.wrong, I would suggest that security, in terms of fighting
:11:36. > :11:40.terrorism and keeping our borders secure, is not something that
:11:41. > :11:45.British people associate naturally with the EU. You are absolutely
:11:46. > :11:48.right. The remainers started off thinking that security would be a
:11:49. > :11:57.big catchphrase, but it hasn't worked. It is a score draw at best,
:11:58. > :12:03.largely because migration has come to play in this security argument. A
:12:04. > :12:07.former head of MI6 has said that it doesn't matter. Remain have got to
:12:08. > :12:13.say something in this. The best they can hope for is, their best suit is
:12:14. > :12:18.the economy, and leave immigration. That is the danger of the security
:12:19. > :12:23.issue. If you bring up security you can quickly move on to immigration.
:12:24. > :12:29.They can say, you cannot really be secure and less you can control our
:12:30. > :12:36.borders. The moment you got on to immigration, it is highly emotive
:12:37. > :12:42.and the doubters have got some - those who support out have got some
:12:43. > :12:47.clout on this. As long as the economy is centre stage, and most
:12:48. > :12:52.people assume that Remain are winning that argument, I think that
:12:53. > :12:58.is as Sagna second as going back to 75. The polls show that they are
:12:59. > :13:04.ahead on the economy. The 200 page Treasury document was predicated on
:13:05. > :13:10.GDP, but actually it was predicated on an extra 3 million immigrants
:13:11. > :13:11.coming to this country by 2030. We shall see
:13:12. > :13:15.what happens in the next couple of months.
:13:16. > :13:17.We'll be back at the same time, 11.00 next week.
:13:18. > :13:20.You can watch the Daily Politics every day this week at noon.
:13:21. > :13:24.Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.