:00:37. > :00:45.comparing the mission of the European Union with
:00:46. > :00:48.what Hitler was trying to achieve - has the Leave campaign's self-styled
:00:49. > :00:54.Churchillian attack dog gone too far?
:00:55. > :00:55.He says leaving the European Union
:00:56. > :00:58.will improve the lives of the "have nots" -
:00:59. > :01:01.but is the man who presided over billions of pounds of welfare
:01:02. > :01:03.cuts really on the side of working people?
:01:04. > :01:07.Reducing the powers of the House of Lords
:01:08. > :01:09.would not be acceptable, says the woman charged with keeping order
:01:10. > :01:12.in the upper house - but with 60 government defeats
:01:13. > :01:14.in the last year alone have their Lord and Ladyships
:01:15. > :01:41.And with me - as always - three journalists who'd have been
:01:42. > :01:43.sure to win the Eurovision political punditry contest: Helen Lewis,
:01:44. > :01:46.Isabel Oakeshott and Amol Rajan who'll be tweeting throughout
:01:47. > :01:52.So earlier in the week the Prime Minister warned that
:01:53. > :01:54.leaving the EU could precipitate armed conflict in Europe.
:01:55. > :01:56.Today, Boris Johnson hits back, comparing the European Union
:01:57. > :02:00.to Hitler in an interview with the Sunday Telegraph:
:02:01. > :02:02."Napoleon, Hitler, various people tried this out,
:02:03. > :02:20.The EU is an attempt to do this by different methods."
:02:21. > :02:23.Boris goes on to say "The euro has become a means by which superior
:02:24. > :02:25.German productivity is able to gain an absolutely unbeatable advantage
:02:26. > :02:43.Could you organise an ordinance that British politicians should just shut
:02:44. > :02:49.up about Hitler? It is an interesting one, the campaign are
:02:50. > :02:56.getting quite grumpy, saying that he was not really talking about Hitler.
:02:57. > :03:00.Boris is to clever not to know that if you mention Napoleon and Hitler
:03:01. > :03:09.people will write headlines. He is a columnist and he knows this. It is
:03:10. > :03:17.bizarre. It was Sadiq Khan sitting at home thinking he was the only
:03:18. > :03:22.London mayor was not mentioned Hitler? The campaign has become
:03:23. > :03:29.quite personal, it is about David Cameron's relationship with them,
:03:30. > :03:39.and whether he has a hope of becoming leader. And as always like
:03:40. > :03:44.to make things personal. It does not surprisingly in the slightest that
:03:45. > :03:50.it is becoming more personal as the clock ticks towards the key date. On
:03:51. > :03:56.Boris Johnson's comments, absolutely agree with Helen but no good can
:03:57. > :04:00.come of a politician mentioning Hitler, but the reaction to the
:04:01. > :04:06.remarks has been rather hysterical. If anyone bothers reading the
:04:07. > :04:14.context... In the context. The Mac was an absolutely reasonable
:04:15. > :04:18.statement of historical fact. We should not get to a point where
:04:19. > :04:23.nobody can mention anything historical without it creating a
:04:24. > :04:30.ridiculous action. I don't think it will be arise if it helps them win
:04:31. > :04:38.votes. He fancies herself as an inherent to Winston Churchill, it
:04:39. > :04:45.was in store. In your dreams, if the copy had come in and you had seen
:04:46. > :04:51.the word logo might think you have a chance for a headline. Ever since
:04:52. > :05:03.the collapse of the Roman Empire there have been attempts to unify
:05:04. > :05:08.Europe. In a way, the Germans have that... There was a slight
:05:09. > :05:11.difference in having endless pragmatic committees and ruling
:05:12. > :05:17.tanks and to Poland. By different means is quite different. He was
:05:18. > :05:23.arguing it was an attempt to unify Europe, it is bundled together
:05:24. > :05:32.different ideas. It is a bit of a stretch. But overstretch! I think
:05:33. > :05:42.there was a real danger... And what is the European Union, parable?
:05:43. > :05:46.People support Brexit would say it was an attempt to build a European
:05:47. > :05:54.super structure without a Democratic base. Democratic nations. It is
:05:55. > :05:57.completely reasonable. Ireland begins to cover girl to make
:05:58. > :06:06.important arguments about historical trends. Butler was Fromer remark.
:06:07. > :06:25.He only mentioned Napoleon. Maybe he should have mentioned other leaders.
:06:26. > :06:31.What do you make of the polls, showing neck and neck but they are
:06:32. > :06:40.so far ahead in the economic argument, and that is why we will
:06:41. > :06:46.win. They always hoped that. The evidence is that people put the
:06:47. > :06:52.economy as the highest concern. What the Leave campaign is trying to do,
:06:53. > :06:58.we've seen this from Nigel Farage, make the point that this is not just
:06:59. > :07:06.about GDP, a few extra pounds in your pocket. The Leave campaign will
:07:07. > :07:13.be hoping to highlight the question of what this means for society.
:07:14. > :07:15.Now - would leaving the European Union be good
:07:16. > :07:17.for the poor and disadvantaged in Britain?
:07:18. > :07:19.That's the case that's being made by the former Work
:07:20. > :07:21.and Pension Secretary Iain Duncan Smith.
:07:22. > :07:23.I will be talking to him in a moment.
:07:24. > :07:25.But first let's hear the warnings earlier this week about
:07:26. > :07:27.the short-term impact of Brexit on the economy
:07:28. > :07:35.from the Governor Bank of England, Mark Carney.
:07:36. > :07:38.A vote to leave the European Union could have material economic effects
:07:39. > :07:40.on the exchange rate, on demand, and on the economy's
:07:41. > :07:46.So, this combination of influences on demand,
:07:47. > :07:49.supply and the exchange rate could lead to a materially lower
:07:50. > :08:00.path for growth and a notably higher path for inflation
:08:01. > :08:03.than in the central projections set out in today's
:08:04. > :08:18.Welcome back to the Sunday Politics. You've claimed that leaving the EU
:08:19. > :08:26.would be good for the have nots but the Governor of the Bank of England
:08:27. > :08:29.says it could lead to recession inflation, unemployment. That could
:08:30. > :08:34.be bad. If all the predictions were right. Every single one of these
:08:35. > :08:37.predictions is done by groups of people who've got most of their
:08:38. > :08:47.predictions wrong. The point I would make to you, the Treasury prediction
:08:48. > :08:52.and the IMS prediction all show that if Britain left the EU the economy
:08:53. > :08:59.would grow. Their argument is it would not grow as fast but how you
:09:00. > :09:12.can predict a 0.6% variation is beyond me. He was the point I really
:09:13. > :09:18.believe about the bank, which is where I find this very back. I think
:09:19. > :09:22.the bank, the governor has strayed into an expression of a simple,
:09:23. > :09:27.personal prediction. I don't think it is actually possible for you to
:09:28. > :09:32.say with any absolute accuracy that that will happen. In a sense, when
:09:33. > :09:36.you listen to what he said, he started to nuance about the idea, he
:09:37. > :09:40.was not seeing it actually would be comic he said he thought it could be
:09:41. > :09:45.about that. Here is my point about the independence of the Bank of
:09:46. > :09:49.England. Section ten of the 199 act makes it very clear that if he is to
:09:50. > :09:55.talk about monetary policies, for which he has independence, he has to
:09:56. > :10:02.be open, impartial and all things must be available. Last year, in
:10:03. > :10:05.2015, when he spoke about the threat to the British economy, he made the
:10:06. > :10:11.point which Mervyn King has made that the euro instability and the
:10:12. > :10:17.crash has been very damaging to the British economy and will be even
:10:18. > :10:20.more damaging as it goes on. Notice that when he came out on Thursday he
:10:21. > :10:29.said nothing about the overall problems if we remained in. If
:10:30. > :10:35.you had damned well better say you had damned well better say
:10:36. > :10:41.and the threats of remaining are very clear. Mervyn King said there
:10:42. > :10:49.is a crisis going on and he does not see an end to it. Why don't we hear
:10:50. > :10:55.from him about that? Has he breached his obligations as Governor of the
:10:56. > :11:05.Bank of England? I believe that he has. Should he resign? I think he
:11:06. > :11:12.ought to be asked why he has not brought out both sides of the issue.
:11:13. > :11:18.He used to work for Goldman Sachs. They are running through this,
:11:19. > :11:27.funding the campaign, he has been very clear on it. You bring out
:11:28. > :11:33.Goldman Sachs, lack of impartiality, you think he is not keeping his
:11:34. > :11:38.remit, should he resign? I think he needs to answer about this one
:11:39. > :11:43.simple charge. I would like to see the e-mail exchange over this issue,
:11:44. > :11:49.the telephone conversation minutes, to see whether the Treasury has had
:11:50. > :11:56.any involvement in this process whatsoever, what worries me slightly
:11:57. > :12:01.about what is going on, the Bank of Scotland comes out on Thursday and
:12:02. > :12:04.then suddenly the head of the IMF comes out on Friday with a similar
:12:05. > :12:11.prediction. These are the same people that were telling us all that
:12:12. > :12:14.the UK is too small to leave and too insignificant. Now we are so
:12:15. > :12:21.insignificant that we are plunging the world into an economic crash.
:12:22. > :12:32.Are we saying this was an accident? The governor did not call? Let me
:12:33. > :12:41.ask you this, we know what made .. Are you saying they are colluding? I
:12:42. > :12:44.wonder. Do you have any evidence? Suddenly on Wednesday and Thursday,
:12:45. > :12:48.you have reports coming out, do you think they spoke to each other about
:12:49. > :12:55.what they are doing? I wonder about that. The Chancellor is supporting
:12:56. > :13:06.the governor, he then stands behind Christine Lagarde. We know that they
:13:07. > :13:11.are players in this. The IMF always works with them. We know which major
:13:12. > :13:15.economic authorities you don't like. The Treasury, the IMF, the Bank of
:13:16. > :13:19.England, the OECD, which major economic authorities do you rate?
:13:20. > :13:25.There have been some good reports out, there are a number of good
:13:26. > :13:30.economists, lots of others from the city who have produced a report
:13:31. > :13:35.which got very little coverage about the prospect... Any major economic
:13:36. > :13:38.apologies? Yes but when they have come out with these reports they
:13:39. > :13:44.have said the UK would continue to grow. Not as quickly. Not as
:13:45. > :13:50.quickly. My point is if you're going to be balanced you need to
:13:51. > :13:53.constantly reference that point and if they want to say that there is a
:13:54. > :13:59.possibility this could lead to a problem he must also point out that
:14:00. > :14:05.if we remain there is a possibility that we will be damaged by this You
:14:06. > :14:08.made that .3 times. Let me ask you, can you name a major economic
:14:09. > :14:15.authority on your side of the argument? I would not expect one to
:14:16. > :14:22.be on our side. So you have none? It would be completely unusual for all
:14:23. > :14:27.these institutions not to want to act the status quo. All these
:14:28. > :14:31.institutions said there was no problem in 2007 and then one year
:14:32. > :14:40.later we hit the buffers and the economy went down. None of them
:14:41. > :14:41.predicted it. Including the Conservatives. None of them have
:14:42. > :14:54.apologised for their failure. I want to show you this chart. This
:14:55. > :14:59.shows our balance of payments, our deficit. It is the difference
:15:00. > :15:04.between our exports and imports We import a lot more than we export in
:15:05. > :15:09.goods and services. It has continually got worse under your
:15:10. > :15:13.government. This deficit, which is multi-billion, is financed by
:15:14. > :15:21.foreigners who buy our sterling as I to make up the gap. If Brexit create
:15:22. > :15:27.a falling pound, why would the foreigners continue to pay for our
:15:28. > :15:30.deficit? If the economy didn't perform, why would be, but if you
:15:31. > :15:35.look at all those who predicted where we would be now, they all said
:15:36. > :15:39.the threat of Brexit would actually bring the pound crashing. The pound
:15:40. > :15:46.is now rising back up, close to where it was when we started this
:15:47. > :15:51.campaign. 10% on last November. We had this deficit, it is financed by
:15:52. > :15:57.foreigners. If they lose confidence in this country, confidence in
:15:58. > :16:01.Stirling, how do we pay for this? We have to make sure we run the economy
:16:02. > :16:05.in a way that they have confidence in it, we have to get some of those
:16:06. > :16:10.regulations down, we have to make British industry more competitive.
:16:11. > :16:14.We have to have a better plan to get industry working again. That would
:16:15. > :16:20.be in the long term, this could be a short-term problem that could hit in
:16:21. > :16:24.the summer. If it results leaving in an uncontrolled, plummeting
:16:25. > :16:27.sterling, and the foreigners because of the uncertainty and sterling
:16:28. > :16:30.going down are saying we are not going to continue to finance it the
:16:31. > :16:37.bank would have to raise interest rates, wouldn't it? If that was the
:16:38. > :16:40.circumstance, yes, but it is what you plan to do. Why are they
:16:41. > :16:49.investing in what we are doing at the moment? They buy the bonds
:16:50. > :16:53.because they believe the Government has a long-term plan to get the
:16:54. > :16:57.deficit down and reduce borrowing. Therefore they believe the UK is a
:16:58. > :17:04.good investment and running a trade surplus with the rest of the world.
:17:05. > :17:10.We are running a huge deficit. Yes, but we are running a trade surplus.
:17:11. > :17:15.If they need to finance this deficit, and it is not the budget
:17:16. > :17:22.deficit, it is how the foreigners by our assets in order to help us run
:17:23. > :17:27.this deficit. If interest rate did rise, it follows that mortgage rates
:17:28. > :17:30.could rise substantially. Yes but the alternative could be the same,
:17:31. > :17:36.in other words if they believe what we are doing is right for the
:17:37. > :17:40.economy they are prepared to back it, which means you wouldn't have
:17:41. > :17:45.rising interest rates. All of this is speculation because we don't
:17:46. > :17:53.know. Boris Johnson has admitted that after Brexit there would be a
:17:54. > :17:57.Nike tick, that he believes the economy would take a hit, but it
:17:58. > :18:02.would recover strongly. Do you believe that? Possibly but this is
:18:03. > :18:07.speculation about something nobody knows. There has been speculation
:18:08. > :18:12.about forecast in these economies, most of them are wrong because
:18:13. > :18:17.people are unable to tell us about what they think about our prospects
:18:18. > :18:21.afterwards. If we vote to leave we are already able to show we can get
:18:22. > :18:25.our money back in due course and we are able to start planning our own
:18:26. > :18:31.economy so we are able to get the kind of deals we need. That shows
:18:32. > :18:36.you have a plan that works. You could offer short-term crisis in the
:18:37. > :18:40.interim, couldn't you? They are worried whether their mortgage will
:18:41. > :18:48.have risen by August or September of this year. If that were to happen
:18:49. > :18:52.but the word is if. This is pure speculation. The point I am making
:18:53. > :18:59.is that the reality is it may go in the opposite direction. Nobody can
:19:00. > :19:03.say that. The EU guarantees a number of social protections for workers,
:19:04. > :19:08.covering things like equal pay, working time, maternity pay. Can you
:19:09. > :19:14.pledged to fight to maintain all of these protections if we leave? All
:19:15. > :19:17.of these were accepted by the Conservative government and I
:19:18. > :19:20.believe strongly then need to be protections for workers. All of
:19:21. > :19:26.these things in a democracy are debated but the British government
:19:27. > :19:31.have actually themselves instituted protections for workers. So would
:19:32. > :19:39.you fight to keep the protections they currently have under EU
:19:40. > :19:43.guarantees? As it stands, yes. Why should people trust you because you
:19:44. > :19:48.opposed the Web Time directive in 1996, and voted against the minimum
:19:49. > :19:54.wage in 1997. Why would they have not looked to you for this social
:19:55. > :20:00.protection? Because rather than forecast ahead, look back at what
:20:01. > :20:04.has happened to them. The immigration has damaged them. I m
:20:05. > :20:08.simply saying what has happened therefore my argument has been, and
:20:09. > :20:12.you have known that over a long time, over nine years I have argued
:20:13. > :20:18.this process has been most damaging to the people at the low skilled
:20:19. > :20:25.end. That is the migration issue, it may well be true. I'm asking you why
:20:26. > :20:28.should people trust you on these EU social protections that they would
:20:29. > :20:34.remain if we came out since you voted against them when they were
:20:35. > :20:38.being proposed? The working Time directive gave little or no
:20:39. > :20:44.flexibility at the time. It has been in place and we had to work with it.
:20:45. > :20:48.You protect the workforce but you make sure the competition that they
:20:49. > :20:53.face in terms of their jobs is actually fair competition, not
:20:54. > :20:57.unfair competition. What has happened, as you saw on Thursday
:20:58. > :21:01.with the national insurance numbers, is a very high proportion of people
:21:02. > :21:07.coming in in under 52 weeks here who have no commitment to the UK often
:21:08. > :21:14.staying in bed sits, compete on the low salary end of life. Is the
:21:15. > :21:19.working Time directive, which guarantees the hours people work in
:21:20. > :21:25.a week and proper breaks, is that safe after Brexit or not? UK law
:21:26. > :21:29.would enshrine what we think is best for protection of workforce and that
:21:30. > :21:34.is right. A democratic government will decide on what it thinks is
:21:35. > :21:38.right. That is possible for Labour or Conservative. I believe it is
:21:39. > :21:45.right to have it, the question is how flexible... People watching this
:21:46. > :21:50.will not be reassured by this. I will stick to the agreements we
:21:51. > :21:56.have. You point your fist in the Commons when the Chancellor
:21:57. > :22:02.announced the new national living wage, now you say it is a magnet for
:22:03. > :22:07.migrants, what changed? I said it is a good people for people wanting to
:22:08. > :22:11.come and work here because they will get a higher wage. I am wholly in
:22:12. > :22:15.favour of a rise to the minimum wage because I believe that over time
:22:16. > :22:21.what happens to businesses is they have got around paying lower
:22:22. > :22:28.wages... Would you still be in favour of it if we stayed in the EU?
:22:29. > :22:33.Yes, because it is the best way you can drive the wages up but if we
:22:34. > :22:37.stay in the EU it will become a magnet for people to come in here
:22:38. > :22:41.and it will lead to huge problems. The point I made on Tuesday this
:22:42. > :22:48.week was that have we have seen already lots of people from the EU
:22:49. > :22:52.tend to come in. The vast majority of people coming from the European
:22:53. > :22:56.Union into the UK, they tend to be low skills, they tend to be ones
:22:57. > :23:01.taking a high proportion of those low skilled jobs. They have taken
:23:02. > :23:06.them at lesser salary and driven it down. The overall average wage will
:23:07. > :23:11.still be low for those on low skills. You have brought up
:23:12. > :23:16.migration several times in this interview, isn't the blunt truth,
:23:17. > :23:19.because I was asking about the economics, you are losing the
:23:20. > :23:24.economic arguments, the polls show that, you are more dependent on
:23:25. > :23:44.scaring people. John Major says What do you say? Rubbish. Very
:23:45. > :23:49.simple, he is talking nonsense. He said only a few years ago that there
:23:50. > :23:54.was a real issue over immigration. The Government had a target to get
:23:55. > :23:58.tens of thousands, the limit down to tens of thousands, we are not
:23:59. > :24:02.achieving that. We talked about it in the run-up to the election. The
:24:03. > :24:06.Prime Minister himself made a strong commitment that we would ensure our
:24:07. > :24:10.borders were protected against people coming to be here so it is
:24:11. > :24:14.nonsense because we are not raising this is an issue because we are
:24:15. > :24:19.trying to win the referendum. Most people in the country believes there
:24:20. > :24:30.is an issue about the open border with the European Union. Why is it
:24:31. > :24:32.demagoguery, why is it extremism to speak for British people who feel
:24:33. > :24:35.like their views are being tossed aside? If you don't do it, the
:24:36. > :24:42.extreme parties get onto it. Was it wise Boris Johnson to compare the
:24:43. > :24:49.EU's ambitions? I thought it was a good article because he spoke about
:24:50. > :24:56.this nonsensical... Was it wise to compare it with Hitler? Do you think
:24:57. > :25:01.Hitler's efforts to unify Europe are the same as the European Union's
:25:02. > :25:05.efforts? I think the whole process of trying to drive Europe together
:25:06. > :25:11.by force or democracy ultimately makes problems. Isn't this
:25:12. > :25:16.referendum getting vaguely absurd? We have the Prime Minister dangling
:25:17. > :25:20.the thought of world War three if we leave, and on your side we have
:25:21. > :25:24.Boris Johnson saying Hitler and the European Union are on the same
:25:25. > :25:29.script. It is both nonsense and you know that. All he is doing in the
:25:30. > :25:39.interview is talking about the trend towards the idea, and he's using
:25:40. > :25:44.historical parallels to explain it. You go through this great idea that
:25:45. > :25:48.somehow there is a thing called greater Europe. Whether or not you
:25:49. > :25:55.like the linguistics of this, my point remains the same. If you vote
:25:56. > :26:00.to remain on the 23rd, you are voting, the 12 residents said it
:26:01. > :26:10.clear that they intend to deepen... The five presidents. The five
:26:11. > :26:14.presidents rather. David Cameron and George Osborne won't debate other
:26:15. > :26:19.Tory ministers during the referendum, are they concerned about
:26:20. > :26:24.party unity or just running scared? You will have to ask them. My view
:26:25. > :26:28.about it is that it is right to have a proper debate and by not opening
:26:29. > :26:32.that debate the British public will be left to wonder why they were not
:26:33. > :26:36.allowed to see the two opposing sides of the argument from the
:26:37. > :26:42.leading figures. You would debate the Prime Minister? Yes, we need to
:26:43. > :26:46.get these things straight face-to-face. After all, if this
:26:47. > :26:51.were an election would be Remain side be allowed to say we won't
:26:52. > :26:57.debate Ed Miliband fustian might know, they cannot do that. There are
:26:58. > :27:03.two side to this argument, if two sides have to debate it that is
:27:04. > :27:09.right and proper. It should be down to impartiality that we have two
:27:10. > :27:13.sides, the two sets of leaders. Iain Duncan Smith, thank you.
:27:14. > :27:15.Now, the Commons are elected, the House of Lords are not
:27:16. > :27:17.and is supposed to be a "revising chamber".
:27:18. > :27:20.But have their lord and ladyships been overstepping the mark?
:27:21. > :27:22.Over the the past year, they've inflicted 60 defeats
:27:23. > :27:25.on a Government that's now poised to clip the Lord's wings -
:27:26. > :27:27.reducing their power to block changes in the law.
:27:28. > :27:30.But in an exclusive interview before she steps down as the speaker
:27:31. > :27:33.of the House of Lords in the summer, Baroness D'Souza has told us
:27:34. > :27:35.that the powers of the Lords should not be curtailed.
:27:36. > :27:44.It's very obvious why they are called the crossbenchers,
:27:45. > :27:51.My guide knows this place pretty well, how it works, who's who.
:27:52. > :27:53.Since 2011, she's been Lord Speaker, a role which involves
:27:54. > :27:55.overseeing proceedings here, representing the Lords at home
:27:56. > :28:01.and abroad, and sitting on a sack of wool.
:28:02. > :28:08.But the business in here over which Baroness D'Souza presides has
:28:09. > :28:12.come under increasing criticism from the Government.
:28:13. > :28:14.247 members of the House of Lords sit as Conservatives peers,
:28:15. > :28:17.making the governing party a significant minority of the 8 7
:28:18. > :28:24.members eligible to take part in the Upper House.
:28:25. > :28:27.The Government has faced 60 defeats in the House of Lords in the most
:28:28. > :28:32.The rate of defeats this time round is more than twice that
:28:33. > :28:38.Then, the Government was defeated in less than a quarter
:28:39. > :28:42.of votes compared to more than half in the present one.
:28:43. > :28:45.Now there's a sense that the Lords are too rebellious, they have been
:28:46. > :28:48.too rebellious over the last few years and essentially the Lords
:28:49. > :28:52.You know, all governments and all parliamentarians,
:28:53. > :28:58.or at least House of Commons, always feel that the House of Lords
:28:59. > :29:01.is a place that thwarts them in one way or another.
:29:02. > :29:06.And they're right, they do, but that is in the nature
:29:07. > :29:15.They have all the power and rightly so.
:29:16. > :29:17.I still think it's right that the Lords should be free
:29:18. > :29:21.to scrutinise and to question and to hold the Government
:29:22. > :29:24.to account, and to send back legislation which it feels is not
:29:25. > :29:30.adequate, either in terms of its clarity or because perhaps it
:29:31. > :29:32.infringes from time to time individual liberties
:29:33. > :29:38.And that's exactly what happened last October.
:29:39. > :29:41.The House of Lords effectively blocked the Government's proposed
:29:42. > :29:44.changes to tax credits, a massive blow to George
:29:45. > :29:51.Unelected Labour and Liberal Lords have voted down a matter passed
:29:52. > :29:54.by the elected House of Commons that raises constitutional issues
:29:55. > :29:58.and David Cameron and I are clear they will need to be dealt with
:29:59. > :30:00.The way they dealt with it was to ask Lord Strathclyde
:30:01. > :30:04.He concluded peers should lose their absolute veto over
:30:05. > :30:09.detailed laws known as secondary legislation, and instead be allowed
:30:10. > :30:12.only to send it back to the Commons to think again.
:30:13. > :30:16.There's going to be a lively debate about this in the House of Lords
:30:17. > :30:19.and I think that there will be a lot of views expressed and obviously
:30:20. > :30:22.you would expect the Lords to want to retain their power
:30:23. > :30:26.to scrutinise their power, their privilege.
:30:27. > :30:31.If you start curtailing or eroding or limiting the power
:30:32. > :30:34.of the Lords to do its job, there is a question
:30:35. > :30:44.There is another question, too, over the sheer number
:30:45. > :30:48.Baroness D'Souza told me she would be pushing for a Lords
:30:49. > :30:51.motion in the new session, she says the House of Lords should
:30:52. > :30:53.not be larger than the Commons, suggesting the number of peers
:30:54. > :30:58.At least 20% of them should be independents or crossbenchers,
:30:59. > :31:01.and no one party should have a political majority.
:31:02. > :31:04.She said all of that can be achieved by 2020.
:31:05. > :31:06.So, the size is making it inefficient?
:31:07. > :31:16.It does have an impact unfortunately on the role of the House of Lords
:31:17. > :31:19.in holding the Government to account.
:31:20. > :31:22.It's very difficult if you're limited to sort of say,
:31:23. > :31:25.in timed debates, a minute or two minutes to speak, to develop
:31:26. > :31:27.a sustained argument which will convince your fellow
:31:28. > :31:29.peers but also the Government of what it is you are
:31:30. > :31:33.The traditional pomp and ceremony of the Lords is well known
:31:34. > :31:35.but its relationship with the Commons and exactly
:31:36. > :31:42.what role it can play in the future is far more uncertain.
:31:43. > :31:45.And the man who was charged by the Government to review
:31:46. > :31:49.the Lord's powers, Tam Strathclyde, joins us now from Oxfordshire.
:31:50. > :31:58.Welcome to the programme. Nice to see the sun is shining rate you are.
:31:59. > :32:05.We've just heard, what would be the point of the Lloyds if the powers
:32:06. > :32:12.are watered down as your review proposes. What do you say to her?
:32:13. > :32:14.There is no suggestion and no recommendation by anybody in
:32:15. > :32:22.government to fundamentally change the powers of the House of Lords. I
:32:23. > :32:28.made the most mild and humble recommendation about process, where
:32:29. > :32:35.frankly most of us had understood that the customs and conventions
:32:36. > :32:39.that had been built up would stick. Last October, they broke down, as a
:32:40. > :32:49.result there is no consensus and agreement on what those powers could
:32:50. > :32:58.be. I propose a new power to be able to reject and ask. What is
:32:59. > :33:06.interesting is every school child knows that the purpose of the House
:33:07. > :33:13.of Lords is to scrutinise but not to block. What happened was the House
:33:14. > :33:19.of Lords using a veto and given it is unelected, I don't think that
:33:20. > :33:23.power should ever be used. Is the government going to implement your
:33:24. > :33:29.recommendations? Since I reported before Christmas there have been
:33:30. > :33:35.four further reports, three in the House of Lords and one in the House
:33:36. > :33:39.of Commons, commenting on this. I think what the government will want
:33:40. > :33:44.to do is look carefully at these reports before responding. I don't
:33:45. > :33:48.think there needs to be a rush to legislation, and there may well be
:33:49. > :33:52.an attempt to get an agreement between the parties in the House of
:33:53. > :33:58.Lords, between the two Houses of Parliament. But if that consensus
:33:59. > :34:05.cannot be reached, I think the government will have no option but
:34:06. > :34:09.to legislate on this matter. Your government has had 60 defeats at the
:34:10. > :34:13.hands of the Lords. You wonder whether the conservative tune has
:34:14. > :34:17.changed because it was Tory peers inflicting defeat on Labour
:34:18. > :34:23.governments. Now you are getting a taste of your own historic medicine,
:34:24. > :34:34.you just don't like it. I was Leader of the Opposition for most of those
:34:35. > :34:47.years, particularly after the end of the last century. We did defeat the
:34:48. > :34:48.government regularly on primary legislation, not secondary
:34:49. > :34:54.legislation. What was interesting in your package is the government has
:34:55. > :34:59.been defeated in the House of Lords many more times than it did in the
:35:00. > :35:04.first Parliament of Tony Blair's government. Over half of all the
:35:05. > :35:08.votes in the House of Lords are defeated. This is not revision and
:35:09. > :35:13.scrutiny, this is not complementing the work of the House of Commons,
:35:14. > :35:19.this is an aggressive political statement why the other political
:35:20. > :35:21.parties. Is it really? This is a government which increasingly brings
:35:22. > :35:28.forward ill thought out ideas which it has not planned in advance, not
:35:29. > :35:33.without consultation, and is forced into U-turns. There has been a
:35:34. > :35:40.series of them. That is why you need a second chamber, to do proper
:35:41. > :35:45.scrutiny. I am the greatest defender of the second chamber and indeed, a
:35:46. > :35:48.Conservative Party that fully understands the central tenets of
:35:49. > :35:53.the Constitution, understands the central tenets of
:35:54. > :35:59.between the houses, but what we ve seen in the last 12 months, and
:36:00. > :36:01.remember, this is the first 12 months of a new conservative
:36:02. > :36:08.administration, people who were elected to government, scarcely one
:36:09. > :36:13.year ago, and what we've seen in the House of Lords are blocking tactics,
:36:14. > :36:18.using vetoes rather than working with the House of Commons in order
:36:19. > :36:24.to improve that legislation which you rightly criticise. Are you a
:36:25. > :36:27.supporter of the way that governments have bloated the House
:36:28. > :36:34.of Lords? There are over 800 active peers. The US Senate needs 100 and
:36:35. > :36:42.it has real power. You've not got much power and those over 800 of
:36:43. > :36:46.you. Is that sensible? When Mr Blair and his friends throughout the
:36:47. > :36:50.hereditary peers in the 1990s I did argue that there was an inevitable
:36:51. > :36:55.consequence that prime ministers would try to increase their own
:36:56. > :37:04.numbers in the house. What's interesting about Mr Cameron is he
:37:05. > :37:11.has created far more Labour peers. Wide of the need to be 800 of you?
:37:12. > :37:19.You don't. -- why does there need to be 800. But those who want to reduce
:37:20. > :37:23.it to 500 should say how they plan to do that. I would prefer either
:37:24. > :37:25.people to be involved in the decision and they should be directly
:37:26. > :37:28.elected. Thank you for joining us. It's just gone 11.35,
:37:29. > :37:30.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:37:31. > :37:33.in Scotland who leave us now First though, the Sunday
:37:34. > :37:48.Politics where you are. A bit later, first week
:37:49. > :37:52.in the job for Sadiq Khan - Joining me for the duration
:37:53. > :37:56.of the show, James Brokenshire, Conservative MP for Old Bexley
:37:57. > :37:59.and Sidcup, and Dawn Butler, With less than six weeks to go
:38:00. > :38:07.until the EU referendum, former Work and Pensions Secretary
:38:08. > :38:09.Iain Duncan Smith has been arguing this week that immigration had
:38:10. > :38:12.an adverse effect on the employment and housing in the UK generally
:38:13. > :38:16.but on London in particular. The construction of the Olympic Park
:38:17. > :38:19.was a powerful illustration of the way in which those who had
:38:20. > :38:22.come in, those migrants, undercut UK workers
:38:23. > :38:30.through their willingness to endure Visiting job centres,
:38:31. > :38:33.as I did as the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions in east London
:38:34. > :38:36.which is where my constituency was in the time, I met both skilled
:38:37. > :38:39.and unskilled workers who struggled When I asked why, they said people
:38:40. > :38:43.from Eastern Europe, often living in bedsits in various
:38:44. > :38:47.parts of his London without UK housing and family costs
:38:48. > :38:50.that they did, hugely underbid Another big negative economic effect
:38:51. > :39:01.of the level of immigration that British people have never
:39:02. > :39:03.voted for and do not want Young people are the biggest losers
:39:04. > :39:10.from this, they are being forced to pay an ever-larger share
:39:11. > :39:13.of their income on accommodation and suffering longer commutes
:39:14. > :39:15.and often have to move far away The fact is that we need to build
:39:16. > :39:20.around 240 houses every day for the next 20 years just to be
:39:21. > :39:23.able to cope with the increased Joining me now is Andrew Rosindell,
:39:24. > :39:28.the Conservative MP for Romford and a supporter
:39:29. > :39:39.of the Leave campaign. Surely one of the crucial things
:39:40. > :39:42.about the Olympics was getting costs down. You're prepared to say that
:39:43. > :39:49.you would see costs rising higher if it meant recruiting indigenous
:39:50. > :39:52.London workers? I think there should be competition but there should be
:39:53. > :39:55.levelling playing field and at the moment it is not fair because people
:39:56. > :40:00.in the United Kingdom will expect to be paid higher wages, have better
:40:01. > :40:05.family conditions. Unfortunately a lot of the unskilled workers coming
:40:06. > :40:07.from the EU are prepared to live in conditions that most of our
:40:08. > :40:14.constituents would not be prepared to do. It is not fair and is causing
:40:15. > :40:18.depression in the wages across London, it means house prices are
:40:19. > :40:22.rising dramatically so that our constituents are struggling to be
:40:23. > :40:27.able to live in London and uncontrolled immigration is simply
:40:28. > :40:31.not a sensible policy. As long as we are in the EU it will be
:40:32. > :40:39.uncontrolled immigration. I don t think the British people want that.
:40:40. > :40:45.On that point of the Olympics, delivered with 40% foreign workers
:40:46. > :40:48.doing it. We look back on the Olympics as an incredible time for
:40:49. > :40:54.our country and capital city and when we look at the contracts that
:40:55. > :41:02.were awarded, the vast majority to British registered companies, and a
:41:03. > :41:06.fifth of the workers came from local boroughs, ensuring that local people
:41:07. > :41:10.could be employed on the Olympic Park. Looking at what is there, it
:41:11. > :41:18.is important to underline in the context of the EU debates, many
:41:19. > :41:22.people are saying this is the solution. Immigration is a very
:41:23. > :41:28.complex theme, dealing with skills, making sure we have the right skills
:41:29. > :41:32.for our economy, the right skills for people within the capital. As
:41:33. > :41:37.well as putting those controls on, but it is why we are outside of the
:41:38. > :41:42.Schengen Erie and why we have the best of both worlds and how voting
:41:43. > :41:52.out of the EU is at leap in the dark. Local Londoners were excluded
:41:53. > :41:58.because they were undercut. I am quite disappointed by Iain Duncan
:41:59. > :42:01.Smith's speech. A few weeks ago he was crying because of the damage he
:42:02. > :42:05.had done in regards of the housing industry. You cannot blame Brussels
:42:06. > :42:12.for the crisis in the housing industry when he was crying a few
:42:13. > :42:17.weeks ago because he knows the Conservative housing policy was
:42:18. > :42:23.responsible for that. I think the procurement approach could have been
:42:24. > :42:32.better but that was the conservative mayor who had the agenda to do that.
:42:33. > :42:36.It started off with 3000 construction workers. That
:42:37. > :42:49.increased. We did not have enough people trained up to do the work.
:42:50. > :42:53.That is something the conservative government should have acknowledged,
:42:54. > :43:01.and we could have had more people prepared and able to do the job
:43:02. > :43:04.There were not skills here. Why should we discriminate against the
:43:05. > :43:11.Commonwealth countries and the wider world? I am passionate about the
:43:12. > :43:13.Caribbean community. It was amazing, the amount of people from
:43:14. > :43:20.Commonwealth countries who feel this mechanism is unfair to countries
:43:21. > :43:27.with whom we have had historical relations. We are we going to put
:43:28. > :43:33.the city the size of Newcastle every year in the UK? We will have another
:43:34. > :43:38.3 million in the next five years. There is no legitimacy for
:43:39. > :43:44.uncontrolled immigration and it is time the government realised the
:43:45. > :43:49.only way to solve this is to control our borders. We do control our
:43:50. > :43:53.borders, we have passport controls other European countries don't have
:43:54. > :44:02.because we are out of Schengen. Clearly that access to the single
:44:03. > :44:06.market of 500 million people worth ?500 billion which supports around 3
:44:07. > :44:13.million jobs across the UK is absolutely essential. The suggestion
:44:14. > :44:19.that we would still be able to access that, it is why the pro
:44:20. > :44:35.Minister is right to deal with the pool factors. I don't think the
:44:36. > :44:42.skier programme and tactics you are using is good for the EU debate If
:44:43. > :44:47.you take one aspect of construction, the EU serves an important role
:44:48. > :44:51.I've got a church being built. If you take into consideration the
:44:52. > :44:55.health and save the aspect, nobody died whilst building the Olympic
:44:56. > :44:56.Stadium because we have good health and see the regulations and that
:44:57. > :45:08.comes from the EU. It is British money we give to the
:45:09. > :45:12.EU and they give some back. We can make our own laws on health and
:45:13. > :45:16.safety, but why is it that you think a Jamaican and should be treated
:45:17. > :45:20.second-class compared to someone from Latvia? I'm not going to go
:45:21. > :45:26.down that road because it is pathetic. Surely we should not
:45:27. > :45:30.discriminate in terms of what type of immigration we have, we should
:45:31. > :45:34.treat everyone fairly. Do you think the public will feel concerned about
:45:35. > :45:37.the figures and the sense of the Government underestimating the
:45:38. > :45:44.impact of migration when we see that... Is it 1.2 million over four
:45:45. > :45:47.years being factored out of the equation, people who have national
:45:48. > :45:52.insurance numbers but they are not here for more than 12 months so they
:45:53. > :46:03.are not including the figures, so we have grossly underestimated the
:46:04. > :46:11.impact of migration. The Office of National Statistics have said
:46:12. > :46:15.something different. If you look at it short-term, people come and go,
:46:16. > :46:22.so to aggregate it up is the wrong approach. Should we can't tourist or
:46:23. > :46:31.visitors because they come to the UK? That is why the ONS were very
:46:32. > :46:34.clear. I said to James, in our manifesto we promised to control
:46:35. > :46:38.immigration, we are failing to do that, and we will only do it if we
:46:39. > :46:44.leave the European Union and take back control of our borders. We will
:46:45. > :46:46.give him the last word because he is going now and you are here later,
:46:47. > :46:49.and only for that reason! So, lauded around the world,
:46:50. > :46:51.at the heart of a spat with the Republican frontrunner
:46:52. > :46:54.for President, and launching a new All in a week's work
:46:55. > :46:58.for the new mayor, Sadiq Khan. And the signs are he doesn't
:46:59. > :47:00.want to hang about, Monday morning and the first
:47:01. > :47:03.day in the office for My wife has hayfever
:47:04. > :47:08.and she's currently suffering because of the flowers we have
:47:09. > :47:12.received over the last weekend! Can I just say look,
:47:13. > :47:15.can people please stop sending the lovely sweets
:47:16. > :47:17.they have been sending. The flowers are fantastic
:47:18. > :47:19.but please stop. My wife cannot breathe
:47:20. > :47:21.in the house any more! It's been great, the
:47:22. > :47:24.response has been great. There was more of it to come
:47:25. > :47:26.at Prime Minister's Questions. Last week London elected
:47:27. > :47:28.a new Mayor... I heard the Prime Minister on two
:47:29. > :47:37.occasions this afternoon congratulate the new Mayor
:47:38. > :47:39.of London, Sadiq Khan, and I would like to
:47:40. > :47:42.repeat that myself. It was almost as if the only person
:47:43. > :47:45.who didn't want to lavish praise was his own party leader,
:47:46. > :47:49.Jeremy Corbyn, who said precisely nothing about the fact the party
:47:50. > :47:54.he leads had just won the capital. Since we often celebrate great
:47:55. > :47:59.national events in this House, would the Prime Minister join me
:48:00. > :48:02.in wishing Sir David Attenborough The two had managed this photocall,
:48:03. > :48:10.and had what was called And according to Momentum,
:48:11. > :48:15.the Corbyn-affiliated part of the Labour Party,
:48:16. > :48:20.it is all a fuss about nothing. I think the way this has been
:48:21. > :48:23.presented in the media has been a deliberate attempt to create
:48:24. > :48:25.division or supposed division between those two individuals
:48:26. > :48:29.and generally create divisions I just saw a clip on the news
:48:30. > :48:36.yesterday of their meeting but it Meanwhile the new Mayor was making
:48:37. > :48:42.a splash on the world stage, a visit from the Socialist mayor
:48:43. > :48:44.of Paris, whose city is still recovering from last
:48:45. > :48:46.year's terrorist attacks. She was keen to associate
:48:47. > :48:49.with London's new Muslim Mayor, and also to attack
:48:50. > :48:54.the politics of Donald Trump. We are in the life,
:48:55. > :49:00.we are in our mission, And London's Mayor got involved
:49:01. > :49:10.as well, saying the man almost certain to be the Republican
:49:11. > :49:12.candidate for US president this year was ignorant about Islam,
:49:13. > :49:15.and that, as a Muslim, Sadiq Khan might have to travel
:49:16. > :49:20.to America before Mr Trump got a chance to implement a mooted ban
:49:21. > :49:24.on Muslims entering the country But in response to Sadiq Khan's
:49:25. > :49:27.comments, Mr Trump appeared This week's edition
:49:28. > :49:39.of the left-leaning New Statesman magazine has paid tribute
:49:40. > :49:46.on its cover with a David-like Mr Khan defeating a Goliath-like Trump
:49:47. > :49:49.figure but there was less glamorous After a meeting with Transport
:49:50. > :49:52.for London, he announced his plans for what's being called the Hopper,
:49:53. > :49:56.a new bus fare which means you can get on and off as many routes
:49:57. > :49:59.as you like in a one-hour period. At the moment you have to pay
:50:00. > :50:04.?1.50 for each journey. I think the one-hour Hopper fare
:50:05. > :50:07.is a sensible thing to do. It's frankly slightly amazing
:50:08. > :50:11.it didn't exist. It tells you something
:50:12. > :50:13.about inflexibility perhaps in TfL that they hadn't come up
:50:14. > :50:23.with such an idea themselves. On airports, there was also
:50:24. > :50:25.a reiteration of Sadiq Khan's I'm quite clear, I don't
:50:26. > :50:33.want to close down Heathrow Airport. Expanding City Airport though seemed
:50:34. > :50:38.to move a step closer, after City Hall removed
:50:39. > :50:41.its opposition to the sale of public Green campaigners said it
:50:42. > :50:44.made a bit of a mockery of his previous claim to want to be
:50:45. > :50:47.the greenest mayor ever. Just take a step back, you will have
:50:48. > :50:50.time for photos, thank you. But even his detractors
:50:51. > :50:52.would probably admit that Sadiq Khan's first week as Mayor
:50:53. > :51:08.of London has been nothing It certainly has. David Attenborough
:51:09. > :51:16.got the nod from Jeremy Corbyn but not Sadiq Khan. I must say, I was
:51:17. > :51:22.sitting there thinking, oh he didn't mention it, but I can tell you just
:51:23. > :51:27.between you and I that it was on his notes but he obviously... He
:51:28. > :51:32.obviously just got so caught up in the moment! Even his spokesman
:51:33. > :51:40.didn't claim that he meant to say that afterwards! The thing is that
:51:41. > :51:45.isn't the big story, the big story is Sadiq Khan basically had Zac
:51:46. > :51:51.Goldsmith for breakfast and Donald Trump for dinner. It has been
:51:52. > :51:58.incredible. Our Labour really saying or thinking that he may have altered
:51:59. > :52:01.Donald Trump's policies? Everybody is saying it! I'm sure Hillary
:52:02. > :52:07.Clinton is sending him a thank you sweet. If Hillary Clinton had done
:52:08. > :52:12.that, I'm just wondering if Donald Trump would have got round to saying
:52:13. > :52:17.it anyway at this stage in the cycle. Do you think the mayor of
:52:18. > :52:20.capital city like London would be enough to make a Republican
:52:21. > :52:27.candidate potentially change their policy? I think Sadiq Khan has been
:52:28. > :52:31.very clear in setting out that clear vision for London over the course of
:52:32. > :52:37.the last few days and I pay tribute to him. In those first few days as
:52:38. > :52:42.the mayor, maybe he has pointed the finger at Donald Trump and clearly
:52:43. > :52:47.Donald Trump's previous comments were divisive and wrong. Who knows
:52:48. > :52:58.with Donald Trump. Using the first name Sadiq already. The message will
:52:59. > :53:01.go out, do not talk about him with his first name! But what is your
:53:02. > :53:07.overall impression of his first week? Equally with my perspective
:53:08. > :53:20.from the Home Office seeing Sadiq Khan looking at keeping the city
:53:21. > :53:28.safe... Does he make London less safe? Then if it had been a
:53:29. > :53:32.Conservative? Sadiq Khan has responded to the different
:53:33. > :53:36.questions, he has a clear mandate. We want to work together on
:53:37. > :53:40.delivering that safety and security. There is investment going into
:53:41. > :53:45.policing, firearms policing to guard against some of these attacks that
:53:46. > :53:50.obviously we are very focused to prevent. Therefore it is now working
:53:51. > :53:54.with America London with this agenda in the national interest and that is
:53:55. > :54:01.what we will be doing. Sound good to you? I do think the dog whistle
:54:02. > :54:06.campaign that Zac Goldsmith ran was appalling. The fact that Donald
:54:07. > :54:12.Trump has had to backtrack and David Cameron has apologised... Why don't
:54:13. > :54:15.we look forward now, because everyone has been apologising, how
:54:16. > :54:21.about thinking about what it will be like going forward. We do have to
:54:22. > :54:23.look at that but you also have to acknowledge when you have done
:54:24. > :54:30.something wrong and I don't think they have acknowledged that. Just a
:54:31. > :54:35.general point, were you happy with the way the Conservative campaign
:54:36. > :54:39.was run? It is important we asked a number of questions of Sadiq Khan in
:54:40. > :54:44.his role as Mayor of London, he answered those and got the mandate
:54:45. > :54:49.from the electorate. Our focus now is on working with him. I'm
:54:50. > :54:53.interested in discussing things like transport, how we look at our
:54:54. > :54:59.suburban railway. There are issues on improving that. There is
:55:00. > :55:04.obviously a clear message the electorate gave at London elections,
:55:05. > :55:12.we now need to move on. There has been talk of him having discussions
:55:13. > :55:18.on air quality, pedestrianise in Oxford Street, these things within
:55:19. > :55:24.his first 100 days, is he likely to get that sort of momentum? Of
:55:25. > :55:29.course, it has been six days and look what he has accomplished in six
:55:30. > :55:34.days. You can ride any buses you like on the first hour. He has made
:55:35. > :55:39.so many improvements and he has fulfilled his promises. It shows the
:55:40. > :55:43.importance of what you can do when you have power, and when you are
:55:44. > :55:47.committed to making something great. Sadiq Khan is committed to making
:55:48. > :55:53.London great and that is proven in what he has been doing. You as a
:55:54. > :55:57.minister as saying quite clearly there is a fair wind to a certain
:55:58. > :56:01.extent because you want that infrastructure to work and just
:56:02. > :56:06.because it is a Labour mayor doing it you will not penalise him
:56:07. > :56:09.financially or otherwise? He obviously has the mandate as the
:56:10. > :56:14.Mayor of London and it is important we work with the new mayor. There
:56:15. > :56:19.are issues of common interest in delivering that safety and security
:56:20. > :56:24.for our city, and also as local MPs on how we can work with the mayor to
:56:25. > :56:27.deliver improvements for our constituents and the areas we
:56:28. > :56:34.represent. Any policies that worry you? We wait to see as they come
:56:35. > :56:38.forward. I'm sure there will be issues where there will be that
:56:39. > :56:42.disagreement but at this time where Sadiq Khan is getting his feet under
:56:43. > :56:48.the desk, let's wait to see how that comes forward but we will be holding
:56:49. > :56:53.him to account. A quick word on his style? He is a man of detail. If he
:56:54. > :56:58.doesn't know the answer to something, he gets someone to know
:56:59. > :57:02.the answer to it so he is surrounding himself with experts in
:57:03. > :57:07.their particular field. I think what we have seen in the first six days,
:57:08. > :57:11.I mean the suffragette statute that will be in Trafalgar Square, what we
:57:12. > :57:17.have seen is someone who is inclusive, determined, and who will
:57:18. > :57:21.make a difference. It is important equally to recognise what an
:57:22. > :57:30.incredible job Boris Johnson did, cutting crime, air quality issues...
:57:31. > :57:35.A man we have often discussed. With no attention to detail at all! Every
:57:36. > :57:37.now and then he even appeared on the programme!
:57:38. > :57:41.And now for the rest of the news in 60 seconds.
:57:42. > :57:44.The Chief Executive of Barnet Council has left his job
:57:45. > :57:47.after a blunder led to some voters being turned away from polling
:57:48. > :57:51.stations in last week's mayoral election.
:57:52. > :57:53.Voters were initially turned away from all 155 polling stations
:57:54. > :57:58.in the borough because their names were missing from the poll list
:57:59. > :58:04.Andrew Travers left the authority by mutual agreement.
:58:05. > :58:06.Two prison officers were seriously injured by at least one inmate
:58:07. > :58:13.This came just two days after staff walked out over safety fears,
:58:14. > :58:15.claiming staff had been assaulted and that legal highs
:58:16. > :58:24.Heathrow Airport has promised to reduce night flights and curb
:58:25. > :58:26.both noise and pollution if it is allowed to build
:58:27. > :58:31.The pledge comes ahead of a Government decision expected
:58:32. > :58:34.this summer on whether to expand Heathrow or Gatwick.
:58:35. > :58:37.The Institute of Directors said the Government has now run out
:58:38. > :58:50.of excuses for delaying the decision.
:58:51. > :58:55.James, the chief executive of Heathrow was now saying he has given
:58:56. > :59:00.David Cameron the space to make that decision because they have gone and
:59:01. > :59:05.fulfilled the demands of the airport's commission. What is
:59:06. > :59:09.holding you back now? The Airports Commission made a number of
:59:10. > :59:13.recommendations. A lot of deal has to be got right so it is a question
:59:14. > :59:18.still of getting the correct decision, such a momentous decision
:59:19. > :59:22.for not just our wonderful city but also the whole of the country, and
:59:23. > :59:26.therefore the Government will take that decision in the appropriate
:59:27. > :59:30.time, taking into consideration all of these factors, and therefore is
:59:31. > :59:35.not being rushed and it is about getting the right outcome. If the
:59:36. > :59:39.Government makes that decision even though Sadiq Khan has said he will
:59:40. > :59:45.oppose it, you wouldn't want him to spend much time opposing it, just
:59:46. > :59:49.make it happen. The Government not rushing is a bit of an
:59:50. > :59:51.understatement. Just make a decision. Even if it is
:59:52. > :00:03.pro-expansion? They said if they build terminal
:00:04. > :00:07.five they will not want a third runway. They are still wanting a
:00:08. > :00:13.third runway. Expanding Gatwick would be great. We have to consider
:00:14. > :00:19.the quality. We are trying to address these issues. I think it is
:00:20. > :00:26.great but ultimately, let's make a decision so that we can move on and
:00:27. > :00:31.look at alternatives. Would you at least accept that the uncertainty is
:00:32. > :00:34.not good for you. At least further information is come through to make
:00:35. > :00:41.that decision. I think what we have heard assist that. Thank you for
:00:42. > :00:50.coming. Great to see you both. Back to you. Welcome back.
:00:51. > :00:52.Now, have you had enough of the EU referendum?
:00:53. > :00:55.Well there's a Queen's speech next week in which we're
:00:56. > :00:57.promised Her Majesty will be talking about something other than Europe.
:00:58. > :01:01.When Her Majesty visits Parliament on Wednesday,
:01:02. > :01:06.front and centre in her speech will be measures for curbing
:01:07. > :01:12.extremism, including banning hate speakers from working with children
:01:13. > :01:15.And David Cameron will push forward with Conservative plans
:01:16. > :01:22.for the British Bill of Rights, in an attempt to assert
:01:23. > :01:25.the supremacy of UK courts in the run-up to the EU referendum.
:01:26. > :01:28.The Prime Minister will also press ahead with reforms to the adoption
:01:29. > :01:31.system, to speed up the placement of children with permanent families.
:01:32. > :01:36.New rules will also be brought in to make Britain a world leader
:01:37. > :01:38.in the development of driverless cars, and the fishing port
:01:39. > :01:41.of Newquay may be about to become the UK's first spaceport.
:01:42. > :01:45.It is one of eight sites the Government will be looking at.
:01:46. > :01:47.And finally, schools in England will be on the Queen's
:01:48. > :01:56.Along with the Government's watered-down plans for academies,
:01:57. > :01:58.ministers will also now be scrambling to work out
:01:59. > :02:01.new rules to stop parents taking their children out of school
:02:02. > :02:03.for family holidays during term time, following the High
:02:04. > :02:16.I don't get the impression there is much to detract from the referendum
:02:17. > :02:19.campaign. Who knows whether any of it will happen? You were just
:02:20. > :02:23.talking about the Lords and the number of defeats, this has been a
:02:24. > :02:28.very torrid legislative session for the government. You've had
:02:29. > :02:33.situations where the whips don't seem to know what is going on. The
:02:34. > :02:37.Sunday trading Bill, it seemed like the government did not realise they
:02:38. > :02:45.had not got the votes locked down. Nobody knows who will be pro
:02:46. > :02:49.Minister after June the 23rd. Who will be driving this legislation
:02:50. > :02:55.through? -- who will be Prime Minister. Theresa May is a
:02:56. > :03:03.complicated opinion on the EU, she wants to leave the EC HR but stay
:03:04. > :03:09.part of the EU. It is not there to be exciting, it is to prove the
:03:10. > :03:15.government is doing something. To the extent that there is any theme
:03:16. > :03:20.to what he announces, we need to go back to 2005, David Cameron said he
:03:21. > :03:23.wants sunshine to win the day, the wants his party to stop banging on
:03:24. > :03:31.about Europe and to be a social reformer. There is a mention of
:03:32. > :03:35.reforming adoption systems, it is like the big society has been
:03:36. > :03:40.wrenched back and David Cameron wants people to think about his
:03:41. > :03:49.legacy as different from the one nation Tory. Would be too much of an
:03:50. > :03:59.exaggeration to say that the government is running the Remain
:04:00. > :04:03.campaign and is too busy doing that? I don't think that it's an
:04:04. > :04:08.exaggeration at all. This speech is going through the motions, I don't
:04:09. > :04:12.think it is something they need to do. I don't think anyone will get
:04:13. > :04:22.terribly excited about it. This British bill of rights, I had to
:04:23. > :04:27.look it up to see if it is the same thing he has been talking about
:04:28. > :04:33.since opposition. But unless you come out of the European Court, it
:04:34. > :04:40.does not make any difference. You can always go to Strasberg. What was
:04:41. > :04:45.your take from Iain Duncan Smith. He's an interesting media performer
:04:46. > :04:50.but I'm not sure he has appeal beyond the base. The swing voter
:04:51. > :04:55.everybody is trying to target tends to be an older northern man, classic
:04:56. > :05:01.Labour voter. What figures can speak to those kind of people? I think all
:05:02. > :05:10.politicians have got a problem. Some pollsters said, who is the figure
:05:11. > :05:18.who could convince people? They said, the guy from money
:05:19. > :05:22.supermarket. The Governor of the Bank of England is the closest you
:05:23. > :05:29.get in the political sphere. This is a real problem for the Leave
:05:30. > :05:35.campaign, they don't have enough people who preach beyond the
:05:36. > :05:41.converted. I was at the premiere of Brexit The Movie. I felt that was a
:05:42. > :05:44.missed opportunity. So many commentators were wheeled out who
:05:45. > :05:50.were over the age of 50, the audience loved it but will it appeal
:05:51. > :05:54.beyond? I worry about that. Commentators over the age of 50 will
:05:55. > :06:00.never catch on. What did you take of it? There was a John Major called
:06:01. > :06:09.and Iain Duncan Smith winced with fury. You realised this Tory civil
:06:10. > :06:14.war, the wounds were first fleshed out 30 years ago. This stuff goes
:06:15. > :06:18.deep. Clearly immigration is his strongest card and the idea that it
:06:19. > :06:23.is a conspiracy between these people to keep us in, that is going to be
:06:24. > :06:27.their strongest card. That and immigration. He did effectively call
:06:28. > :06:33.for the resignation of Mark Carney. Now the rhetorical heat has been
:06:34. > :06:36.turned up on both sides Let's just compare David Cameron's
:06:37. > :06:40.language in November last year Some people seem to say that really
:06:41. > :06:43.Britain couldn't survive, couldn't do OK outside
:06:44. > :06:49.the European Union. Let's be frank, Britain
:06:50. > :06:54.is an amazing country. We've got the fifth biggest economy
:06:55. > :06:57.in the world, we are If we vote to leave on the 23rd
:06:58. > :07:03.of June, we will be We will be voting for fewer jobs,
:07:04. > :07:09.we will be voting for lower growth. We will be voting
:07:10. > :07:28.potentially for a recession. He has dined out on the Euro-sceptic
:07:29. > :07:32.shilling for all these years and it contrasts hugely with what he is
:07:33. > :07:37.saying no. It was bound to come back and haunt her. It is remarkable the
:07:38. > :07:41.extent to which David Cameron has been radicalised by his own
:07:42. > :07:48.campaign. Being in number ten is like being in a cult. He has lost
:07:49. > :07:56.everything about his heritage. He is fundamentally Euro-sceptic. Now we
:07:57. > :08:04.hear somebody banging the drum as if Armageddon is happening if we vote
:08:05. > :08:07.out. It is bizarre. It is a problem, what is the true David Cameron? Is
:08:08. > :08:14.it the one that we had only last November? We should go back into the
:08:15. > :08:20.archives further, to see what he is saying then,. But is it the one who
:08:21. > :08:25.says if we leave there will be armed conflict? The issue for me, if you
:08:26. > :08:33.believe this, why would you risk armed conflict for minor changes to
:08:34. > :08:36.our welfare balance? There is a really interesting difference
:08:37. > :08:43.between him and Theresa May. She said the sky will not fall in but in
:08:44. > :08:46.a dispassionate way, on balance I want us to remain in. That is
:08:47. > :08:53.realistic. Jeremy Corbyn has handled this better than a it Cameron. That
:08:54. > :08:56.is another politician who is naturally Euro-sceptic comedy
:08:57. > :08:59.follows the left-wing line that there is a democratic deficit,
:09:00. > :09:04.corporate interests. When he is asked about it he gives an answer as
:09:05. > :09:09.he did yesterday that is about social protections and workers and
:09:10. > :09:14.sounds quite convincing. What do you make of it? When David Cameron and
:09:15. > :09:22.owns the referendum it was born of panic. The cause we have short-term
:09:23. > :09:27.culture in politics, it was brought about by the rise of Ukip, Nigel
:09:28. > :09:31.Farage was doing fantastically well. Little did they know that they would
:09:32. > :09:37.only get one MP and it has backfired massively. If this was going to risk
:09:38. > :09:43.Armageddon it was stupid and irrational of the Prime Minister. I
:09:44. > :09:52.wanted to ask you about the polls but we've not got time. By next
:09:53. > :09:53.week, maybe when it has sunk in so far we have not seen any difference
:09:54. > :09:56.in the polls. Now, viewers in the North West
:09:57. > :09:58.will have just seen Conservative MP for Cheadle Mary Robinson challenged
:09:59. > :10:00.about whether expenses for volunteers on a Conservative
:10:01. > :10:03.election Battle Bus in the run-up to last year's general election
:10:04. > :10:05.should have been charged to her local campaign
:10:06. > :10:07.or the national party. The Conservative Party are under
:10:08. > :10:13.investigation for failing to declare these expenses -
:10:14. > :10:15.something they put down to an administrative error -
:10:16. > :10:21.but Ms Robinson insisted The party was quite clear to us
:10:22. > :10:27.locally that it would be included in the national spend
:10:28. > :10:30.and that was what we relied on, and from my point of view
:10:31. > :10:33.it was never going to be a national The national party told you this
:10:34. > :10:37.was going to be a national expense? The national party was clear that it
:10:38. > :10:45.was part of the national expense. It is not going away. It is really
:10:46. > :10:51.important. Journalists come under a lot of flak. This is a very
:10:52. > :10:55.difficult story to report. It is about minor details, accounting
:10:56. > :11:03.This has been kept alive entirely by journalists. Particularly Michael
:11:04. > :11:07.Crick on Channel 4 News. Exactly. Things come out and it is hard to
:11:08. > :11:12.keep them down. People sitting at home thinking journalism is all
:11:13. > :11:19.terrible, for once people will think happier. Think of the fury of the
:11:20. > :11:24.Labour moderates, this is an open goal, a well-organised Labour Party,
:11:25. > :11:28.strong leadership, it might be exposed a bit, but they should
:11:29. > :11:32.exploit this. They have got complete silence. So far you've got 11 police
:11:33. > :11:38.forces investigating the Conservative Party about fraud and
:11:39. > :11:44.not a pipsqueak. The reason there are so quiet is because they are up
:11:45. > :11:48.to their necks in it as well. That is the difficulty, that it has been
:11:49. > :11:51.very difficult for broadcasters to get MPs on from other parties
:11:52. > :11:57.because they are all concerned that they have too much to hide. When I
:11:58. > :12:00.asked Alan Johnston about it, he did not know anything about it. Michael
:12:01. > :12:09.Portillo did not know about it either. I found that quite
:12:10. > :12:16.remarkable. It is a hard story to digests. What is the one sentence
:12:17. > :12:22.explanation for that? When there is all this blunder about the EU, it is
:12:23. > :12:26.crowding everything out. The money was charged to the national campaign
:12:27. > :12:30.which was under the legal limit It should have been charged to the
:12:31. > :12:33.local campaigns but that would have put it over the legal limit and that
:12:34. > :12:37.is where the criminal penalties are. This is a big story about the way
:12:38. > :12:44.elections are funded, which is ridiculous. As soon as somebody gets
:12:45. > :12:49.into government they lose interest in it. You need to cover American
:12:50. > :12:54.elections if you think that is ridiculous. I'm serious, the
:12:55. > :13:02.evidence we have is about the Conservatives, how serious? I think
:13:03. > :13:08.they will get away with it. I don't think the Labour Party is well
:13:09. > :13:10.placed to exploit it. The problem is it will solidify and consolidate a
:13:11. > :13:17.feeling lots of people have that politicians are a bunch of crooks,
:13:18. > :13:25.most of them are not. This certainly stinks. We shall see. The police
:13:26. > :13:30.investigations are going on. That is it for today. Thank you to all of my
:13:31. > :13:37.guests. I will be back at the same time next week here on BBC One. The
:13:38. > :13:39.Daily Politics is back tomorrow If it is Sunday, it is the Sunday
:13:40. > :13:46.Politics.