12/06/2016

:00:36. > :00:44.With just 11 days to go until the EU referendum,

:00:45. > :00:46.we get two campaigners to interrogate each other.

:00:47. > :00:51.Tory Chris Grayling for Leave and Labour's Mary Creagh for Remain.

:00:52. > :00:57.We'll hear from two Labour MPs who have recently

:00:58. > :01:01.declared their positions on In or Out.

:01:02. > :01:04.And is the EU putting controversial legislation on ice and pushing it

:01:05. > :01:08.off the agenda until after the referendum is out of the way?

:01:09. > :01:10.Everything difficult, everything contentious has

:01:11. > :01:15.been put in the fridge until the 24th of June.

:01:16. > :01:19.If we vote to stay in, it will all come tumbling out.

:01:20. > :01:22.In the capital: Is this the most Eurosceptic part of Britain?

:01:23. > :01:37.So we are gauging the mood in the borough of Havering.

:01:38. > :01:41.So, all the highs and the lows, the ups and downs.

:01:42. > :01:44.The European Football Championships started this weekend and I'm

:01:45. > :01:47.joined by the France, Germany and Spain of political

:01:48. > :01:52.commentary, Janan Ganesh, Julia Hartley Brewer

:01:53. > :01:53.and Anushka Asthana, who'll be tweeting

:01:54. > :01:59.So a series of stark economic warnings from David Cameron who says

:02:00. > :02:04.he might not be able to protect spending on pensions,

:02:05. > :02:08.the NHS and defence if the UK votes to leave the EU.

:02:09. > :02:11.The Prime Minister said the strain on public finances caused by Brexit

:02:12. > :02:13.would even threaten the "triple lock" which guarantees

:02:14. > :02:22.Here is David Cameron talking to Andrew Marr earlier.

:02:23. > :02:25.The fact is, if we did face a 20-40 billion black hole

:02:26. > :02:27.in our public finances, we would have to make

:02:28. > :02:34.Our pensions promise is based on a growing and succeeding economy,

:02:35. > :02:36.and all of the experts, and I agree with them,

:02:37. > :02:39.most people in business agree, if we leave the single market,

:02:40. > :02:42.if we cut ourselves off from the most important market,

:02:43. > :02:48.our economy will be smaller and that has consequences.

:02:49. > :02:50.Cabinet minister, Leader of the House Chris Grayling

:02:51. > :03:06.If the Prime Minister is saying we voted to leave, he cannot, in fact,

:03:07. > :03:10.implement key parts of the 2015 manifesto, what legitimacy would

:03:11. > :03:15.your government have to continue? Well, I don't buy the argument. I

:03:16. > :03:18.have to completely disagree with him on this, it's only six months since

:03:19. > :03:23.he was telling us if we chose to leave the European Union we would do

:03:24. > :03:27.fine and well. This figure, 20 billion or 40 billion, it is based

:03:28. > :03:32.on analysis by the National Institute Of Economic And Social

:03:33. > :03:35.Research, it assumes the pound goes down, making exports cheaper, but

:03:36. > :03:39.people buy fewer, which makes no sense, and it assumes we lose the

:03:40. > :03:43.ability to sell within Europe, when the reality is that we buy far more

:03:44. > :03:47.from Europe than they do from us. It would cost French, German, Spanish

:03:48. > :03:51.and Italian jobs if they don't continue trading normally. He might

:03:52. > :03:56.be right or wrong, but is it not remarkable that he should say, if

:03:57. > :04:01.you vote to leave, all the things I promised I would do if you elected

:04:02. > :04:05.me, the key things, defence, the NHS, the triple lock on pensions,

:04:06. > :04:09.that is all of the agenda? I'm very surprised he has chosen to use those

:04:10. > :04:12.examples. I don't believe that is right, I don't believe we would back

:04:13. > :04:16.away from manifesto promises and I don't believe we would need to. I

:04:17. > :04:20.think the economic statistics behind the figures he has quoted do not

:04:21. > :04:24.hold up. They include some inherent contradictions and assumptions of

:04:25. > :04:28.doom and gloom. We buy more from the rest of Europe than they do from us,

:04:29. > :04:33.they are going to want to continue trading in the UK market. If we do

:04:34. > :04:37.leave, there was a downturn, because of uncertainty, it might not be long

:04:38. > :04:44.or deep, but if there was, it would hit public finances? It would mean

:04:45. > :04:49.tax rises, more public spending because of the extra welfare due to

:04:50. > :05:00.unemployment, or a, nation or both and more borrowing? Well, the

:05:01. > :05:04.question is if. If you look at what some of the international bodies

:05:05. > :05:08.have been saying, we heard from the IMF, that got the figures so wrong

:05:09. > :05:10.to matter years ago it had to apologise to the Chancellor. The

:05:11. > :05:15.chief economist at the World Bank says he thinks our trade situation

:05:16. > :05:20.would improve if we left the European Union. What you make of the

:05:21. > :05:24.Prime Minister's strategy? There is a certain level of sheer panic in

:05:25. > :05:30.his eyes, if you look very closely. Amid the tiredness, because we

:05:31. > :05:34.learned today he did 357 media appearances as part of this

:05:35. > :05:39.referendum campaign. I think what he is trying to do is to take on the

:05:40. > :05:42.argument that Chris and the Leave campaign are making around

:05:43. > :05:45.migration, saying, we know you are really worried about your borders

:05:46. > :05:49.and you want to close them, you want to do it because it is affecting

:05:50. > :05:51.your livelihood. The Prime Minister is saying, actually, there is

:05:52. > :05:54.something else here that might affect your livelihood and are

:05:55. > :06:00.really trying to get into the idea that it is going to affect people's

:06:01. > :06:04.lives. Even to the extent of saying all the things I promised you, key

:06:05. > :06:08.things on defence spending, extra money for the NHS, the triple lock

:06:09. > :06:13.on pensions, all of these things that probably got him elected, or

:06:14. > :06:17.were a key part, he is prepared to say I can't do any of that? He's

:06:18. > :06:21.just breaching even more of the trust of the British people. Another

:06:22. > :06:24.key pledge he made was that he was going to get immigration down to

:06:25. > :06:28.tens of thousands. He knows he has broken that because of the EU and

:06:29. > :06:31.other failings in immigration policy. The reality is that they are

:06:32. > :06:34.so desperate in Downing Street now because they thought they would be

:06:35. > :06:41.ten points ahead at this point. It is still very close, if you would

:06:42. > :06:47.still say that Remain would edge it on the day. He has even deployed his

:06:48. > :06:53.own wife, she was never that Keane at even turning up at party

:06:54. > :06:57.conferences and kissing on stage. He has got someone at Downing Street to

:06:58. > :07:02.write an article from some Cameron. That is how desperate they are,

:07:03. > :07:05.which is telling. When I spoke to the Chancellor on Wednesday night in

:07:06. > :07:10.the interview and I raised the issue of pensions, I said, why would the

:07:11. > :07:14.state pension be hit either way in or out, because we have the triple

:07:15. > :07:19.lock. By definition, it cannot fall in real terms, in or out. He didn't

:07:20. > :07:25.really dispute that. He went along with that. Today, we have the Prime

:07:26. > :07:29.Minister, only a few days later saying we might not even be able to

:07:30. > :07:33.afford the triple lock if you voted to leave. What is happening? What

:07:34. > :07:38.makes it doubly confusing is that it was Cameron, above anybody else

:07:39. > :07:41.that was incredibly possessive over the pension commitment and the

:07:42. > :07:45.pension benefit commitment in the previous parliament. Even when he

:07:46. > :07:50.came under internal lobbying to soft in the policy, to create fiscal room

:07:51. > :07:53.to maybe soft and cuts elsewhere, he resisted it. So he deserves

:07:54. > :07:58.criticism now for seemingly weakening the position. In many

:07:59. > :08:02.ways, Cameron himself is the least important Remain politician for the

:08:03. > :08:10.next 11 days. They need Labour voters to vote by a margin of 2 1,

:08:11. > :08:13.if not 3-1, four Remain to win the referendum. You don't do that with a

:08:14. > :08:19.Prime Minister they do not like and voted against. For the remaining 11

:08:20. > :08:23.days, I think that Remain need to push Cameron less and Jeremy Corbyn

:08:24. > :08:27.more, if he is willing to do it It's not that, Gordon Brown, who we

:08:28. > :08:31.saw do a video, Harriet Harman, a few other Labour figures. I think

:08:32. > :08:36.that is where it hinges, the Labour voters, especially in the north of

:08:37. > :08:42.England. If it is down to Labour to Pollitt off, some of the leave

:08:43. > :08:48.campaign should be opening the champagne early? -- pull it off The

:08:49. > :08:52.vast majority of Labour MPs want people to vote to Remain. Some

:08:53. > :08:56.people were apparently in tears when they saw the latest poll. The Labour

:08:57. > :09:01.problem in heartlands goes deeper than this. I don't think it is

:09:02. > :09:04.whether or not David Cameron is campaigning or Jeremy Corbyn. In

:09:05. > :09:08.some of those seats, there are the biggest fears about immigration and

:09:09. > :09:12.they wanted to see Labour talking their language. For all that said, I

:09:13. > :09:14.think Chris and his colleagues also have questions to answer. You can't

:09:15. > :09:21.just dismiss all of these reports like the IFS report, saying there

:09:22. > :09:27.might be a ?40 billion black hole. I think only 15 Labour MPs have come

:09:28. > :09:29.out for Leave, but 40% of Labour voters are Eurosceptic, and they

:09:30. > :09:36.will be switching straight to Ukip, the next set of elections. They are

:09:37. > :09:43.already the second party in the north of the country. If you are a

:09:44. > :09:48.sensible Labour MP, you should be keeping quiet about Remain. Is the

:09:49. > :09:52.biggest danger, in most referendums there are swings to the status quo

:09:53. > :09:57.in the final days, it has a built-in advantage. The Scottish referendum,

:09:58. > :10:01.the alternative micro referendum. Don't you risk that? We have to make

:10:02. > :10:04.sure that doesn't happen and campaign relentlessly over the last

:10:05. > :10:11.ten days. We have to keep getting messages across. We have new

:10:12. > :10:16.revelations about the discussions taking place between the European

:10:17. > :10:20.Union and Turkey. You will be dealing later in the programme with

:10:21. > :10:26.this wave of more Europe due to come. There are all kind's of

:10:27. > :10:34.different things that are going to hit the airwaves the moment we voted

:10:35. > :10:37.to remain, if we do. I hope people realise that more Europe is on the

:10:38. > :10:40.way and they have to votes to leave. You are not going away yet.

:10:41. > :10:43.Last week we had campaigners for In and Out interrogate each other.

:10:44. > :10:44.And we're going to repeat that today.

:10:45. > :10:48.The Conservative Leader of the House of Commons Chris Grayling,

:10:49. > :10:50.who wants to Leave and the Labour MP Mary Creagh, who's

:10:51. > :10:53.They will put each other on the spot.

:10:54. > :10:57.I'll mostly just be sitting back to watch.

:10:58. > :11:04.Maybe I'll have a cup of tea. A short while ago they tossed a coin

:11:05. > :11:09.to see who goes first. Mary was the winner, or loser, depending on your

:11:10. > :11:13.point of view. She has chosen to cross-examine Chris. So, before we

:11:14. > :11:15.start, let's see Chris's pitch to undecided voters as to why they

:11:16. > :11:31.should vote to leave. In ten days' time, we are going to

:11:32. > :11:35.be taking the biggest decision of this country has taken for a

:11:36. > :11:38.generation. Should we remain or leave? What would be our future

:11:39. > :11:42.relationship with Europe, given the fact we are already the biggest

:11:43. > :11:47.customer for European products like these ones? When you take your

:11:48. > :11:51.decision, I want you to ask yourself one simple question. Do I want to

:11:52. > :11:55.live in a country that is free to take its own decisions in the

:11:56. > :11:58.interests of its people? Or am I happy to be in a country that has

:11:59. > :12:06.given up control over key decisions that affect all of our futures? We

:12:07. > :12:09.have already given up control over a whole variety of areas of crucial

:12:10. > :12:10.importance to us. We are not allowed to forge our own free-trade

:12:11. > :12:13.agreements with Commonwealth partners, we are not allowed to set

:12:14. > :12:16.limits on the number of people that come and work here and is

:12:17. > :12:22.immigration pressures. All of that has happened already. There is more

:12:23. > :12:26.to come. At the same time, we are spending a fortune on being part of

:12:27. > :12:31.the EU. Our contribution is ?35 million overall every week. We only

:12:32. > :12:34.see half of that money back, money that could be spent on our

:12:35. > :12:38.priorities like the National Health Service and cutting fuel bills. If

:12:39. > :12:44.you have any worries that if you vote to leave on the 23rd of June,

:12:45. > :12:48.the Germans are still going to sell these cars, the French will still

:12:49. > :12:51.sell us our wines and cheeses. What we will have done is taken back

:12:52. > :12:56.control of our country. We will be in charge of the key decisions that

:12:57. > :12:59.matter to all our futures. We will be a properly independent country

:13:00. > :13:08.again and that is what I want for all our children and grandchildren.

:13:09. > :13:11.Here are risk Grayling and Mary Cray. Mary has seven minutes to

:13:12. > :13:21.interrogate Chris. Vote Leave have claimed that EU

:13:22. > :13:25.regulations cost businesses ?60 million a week. It doesn't take into

:13:26. > :13:29.account the benefits of the regulations, does it? The key issue

:13:30. > :13:34.for most businesses in this country, you have to remember that most

:13:35. > :13:37.businesses do no trade at all within the European Union, most operate

:13:38. > :13:41.just in the United Kingdom. They are all subject to the regulations that

:13:42. > :13:45.international businesses have to deal with. Typically, they are small

:13:46. > :13:49.businesses, they don't have the staff, the compliance to do it. It

:13:50. > :13:53.places a huge extra cost on small business. I've talked to small

:13:54. > :13:57.businesses up and down the country. Again and again, they tell me they

:13:58. > :14:01.have to do box ticking and form filling. It is nothing to do with

:14:02. > :14:05.the environment they are operating in, it takes a huge amount of time

:14:06. > :14:09.and money that could be spent on hiring more people. The same report

:14:10. > :14:14.shows that these measures have a net benefit to the UK, so we will not

:14:15. > :14:18.save ?600 million a week if we leave? There is not a cash saving of

:14:19. > :14:21.?600 million a week. What you do is free of business to do new things,

:14:22. > :14:26.to take advantage of new opportunities. On day one, you don't

:14:27. > :14:33.just save ?600 million on the spot. As we gain the freedom to reduce the

:14:34. > :14:35.regulation on small business, not to reduce worker rights, not to make

:14:36. > :14:38.workplaces more dangerous, but to end some of the box ticking and form

:14:39. > :14:43.filling that comes from Brussels, those businesses have more time to

:14:44. > :14:47.sell... The figure includes the cost of rights at work, the rights of

:14:48. > :14:53.four weeks paid holiday, paid maternity leave and equal pay for

:14:54. > :14:56.fixed term and agency workers. Which would you scrap? We've always been

:14:57. > :15:00.better than the rest of the European Union on workers' rights. One of the

:15:01. > :15:04.things I would not do, after the gulf of Mexico oil disaster, even

:15:05. > :15:09.though we have the best safety standards in the North Sea, they

:15:10. > :15:12.decided to rewrite them. No benefit to safety or businesses, at a time

:15:13. > :15:16.when jobs are being lost in the North Sea, companies have had to

:15:17. > :15:26.deal with extra costs, to no benefit at all except to keep bureaucrats

:15:27. > :15:30.happy. You've been clear we would not save ?600 million from leaving

:15:31. > :15:33.the EU. Hundreds of thousands of women lost tens of thousands of

:15:34. > :15:39.pounds when you changed the state qualifying age for the pension. Why

:15:40. > :15:43.should they rely on you to protect their rights? You changed the

:15:44. > :15:46.goalposts. It was the Labour Party that started changing the retirement

:15:47. > :15:51.age, we've both chosen to do that because the life expectancy of

:15:52. > :15:56.people in this country is rising. Inevitably, as retirement years

:15:57. > :15:59.become longer, it becomes more of a challenge, and both we and the

:16:00. > :16:04.Labour Party have said because of that we need to raise the state

:16:05. > :16:08.retirement age. You would surely agree as a champion of equality it

:16:09. > :16:11.is sensible for men and women to retire at the same age. I want to

:16:12. > :16:16.move on to what you said about the Commonwealth. We do more trade with

:16:17. > :16:20.Ireland than 53, Love countries put together. Europe puzzles would mean

:16:21. > :16:24.we'd need to have a land border between Ireland and Northern

:16:25. > :16:29.Ireland. I will that help? I don't buy that. We had the Common travel

:16:30. > :16:33.area since 1923, before the European Union was streamed off. There's no

:16:34. > :16:43.reason for that to change. -- dreams. The issue is about living

:16:44. > :16:46.and working in the UK, getting a national insurance number,

:16:47. > :16:49.registering for state support. That creates a back door for EU migrants

:16:50. > :16:58.to coming to Northern Ireland and Ahern has decided Theresa Villiers,

:16:59. > :17:02.because he says we are talking about EU citizens and non-EU nations

:17:03. > :17:06.seeking a way into Britain. He says smuggling would undergo a revival,

:17:07. > :17:12.endless profit-making opportunities for criminals. You're talking about

:17:13. > :17:17.illegal immigration, I'm talking about a situation where we have

:17:18. > :17:23.77,000 people a year arriving just looking for a job. I'm talking about

:17:24. > :17:27.Northern Ireland. We've got 200 roads between the countries. Are you

:17:28. > :17:32.going to have an army of bureaucrats checking passports? We never have

:17:33. > :17:36.and we will not. If you are a European citizen crossing the border

:17:37. > :17:39.and seeking to get a job, if you don't have the right to work year,

:17:40. > :17:46.there will be set rules in place so you demonstrate you have a job

:17:47. > :17:52.before you come to the UK. You will not be able to work legally. What is

:17:53. > :17:56.your alternative economic plan? Do you want the UK to be like

:17:57. > :18:04.Switzerland? I want the UK to be like the UK. The reason we will do

:18:05. > :18:06.trade deals with the EU, Carry On trading freely, is because we buy

:18:07. > :18:15.more from them than they buy from us. I buy more from Lidl than they

:18:16. > :18:21.buy from me but I would say the economic power in that relationship

:18:22. > :18:28.is on Lidl. They sent 8% of exports to us. Where is the power in that

:18:29. > :18:33.relationship? I think the power is with you, the consumer, because you

:18:34. > :18:37.can go to another supermarket. In what world would the French say to

:18:38. > :18:42.their farmers, we are going to endanger your livelihood by taking

:18:43. > :18:47.away your ability to sell your products to the UK? We represent 17%

:18:48. > :18:54.of exports. Why would they put that in danger? Millions of EU jobs

:18:55. > :19:00.depend on British consumers. One of your economists have said about to

:19:01. > :19:03.leave would mostly eliminate Britain's manufacturing centre and

:19:04. > :19:08.Michael Gove cannot guarantee people would not lose their jobs. Are you

:19:09. > :19:13.happy with 18% of the British economy is stopping happening? He is

:19:14. > :19:21.one of your economists. I don't accept that. So your saying he is

:19:22. > :19:25.wrong? On this, I think he is. Is Michael Gove wrong when he says he

:19:26. > :19:30.cannot guarantee jobs? Look at Patrick Bamford. Your colleague

:19:31. > :19:38.Michael Gove, said he cannot guarantee jobs. He said he could not

:19:39. > :19:45.Darren T the jobs of the British members of the European Parliament

:19:46. > :19:51.-- could not guarantee. On manufacturing, look at James Dyson,

:19:52. > :19:55.these are people who are captains of industry, saying we should leave.

:19:56. > :20:03.Have you ever join the gym? I never have. I see from your register of

:20:04. > :20:09.interests you are an honorary member of the RSC club. If a member

:20:10. > :20:12.cancelled their membership on Monday and turned up expecting to use the

:20:13. > :20:24.swimming pool, what with the other members say? What would they say? We

:20:25. > :20:30.will need to leave it there. It is now the turn of Mary to be cross

:20:31. > :20:38.examined. Let's look at her pitch as to why voters should vote to remain?

:20:39. > :20:42.In 1940, Churchill urged towns and cities to fund raise for the war

:20:43. > :20:46.effort. These towns outside Wakefield he did that call and

:20:47. > :20:55.raised enough money to buy a Spitfire. This Polish pilot flew

:20:56. > :21:03.that plane in the Royal air force. He shot down four German planes

:21:04. > :21:12.before losing his life over France. His bravery and that of thousands of

:21:13. > :21:19.other service men is commemorated at this memorial. In 1000 years of

:21:20. > :21:25.European history we've had 70 years of peace, largely because of the

:21:26. > :21:29.European Union. Billions of pounds of British exports and millions of

:21:30. > :21:35.jobs and on our membership of the EU. The pressure on the NHS, schools

:21:36. > :21:39.and housing is not caused by European immigration but I had right

:21:40. > :21:47.Tory Government failing to and staff the NHS, cutting budgets for schools

:21:48. > :21:53.and overseeing the lowest house building since the 1920s. When you

:21:54. > :21:56.thought on June 23, remember this pilot, Polish immigrant, shot down

:21:57. > :22:04.over France, for the freedoms we enjoy today. Remember as well that

:22:05. > :22:10.the people that want us to leave are not friends and allies in the USA,

:22:11. > :22:17.but right wing politicians, Donald Trump, Marine Le Pen, Vladimir

:22:18. > :22:23.Putin. Ask yourself, is that a risk you are willing to take with your

:22:24. > :22:32.children's futures in this battle for Britain? As before, you've got

:22:33. > :22:37.seven minutes to question merely. The trade figures show we have the

:22:38. > :22:41.biggest ever trade deficit in the EU. Why do you think are trading

:22:42. > :22:47.position has become so much worse in the single market? I think it is

:22:48. > :22:51.important we stay in the EU, it gives us the largest domestic market

:22:52. > :22:58.in the world, a market of 500 million people, and as I said to

:22:59. > :23:02.you, it is important that we stay because 80% of the economy depends

:23:03. > :23:08.on services freely traded and 2 % of the economy is manufacturing. Those

:23:09. > :23:14.sectors will be put at risk if we leave. You did not answer my

:23:15. > :23:20.question. Why do you think the trading position has got worse over

:23:21. > :23:24.the years? I think our economy is changing, we've had a big recession,

:23:25. > :23:31.and we've had six years of Conservative government. I think

:23:32. > :23:36.Britain is better off, safer and more secure as part of the European

:23:37. > :23:41.Union. The issue around trading figures, do we create more jobs and

:23:42. > :23:48.growth by remaining or should we take this leap in the dark with

:23:49. > :23:55.security and prosperity? The trade position was getting worse even in

:23:56. > :24:04.the Labour years. Why is that? The trade position is that we do more

:24:05. > :24:08.trade with Ireland than with 53 members of the Commonwealth. That is

:24:09. > :24:13.something your campaign wants to put at risk and I don't think that is a

:24:14. > :24:21.risk we can take. It is important we stay in, we work on closing that

:24:22. > :24:27.deficit, but we must not wreck the economy and have a new recession by

:24:28. > :24:31.voting to leave. That is what every single economic forecaster has said

:24:32. > :24:34.will happen. We will check recession, the economy will shrink,

:24:35. > :24:38.and the trade deficit will get worse. We would be outside the club

:24:39. > :24:48.and they would tell us what rules we would abide by. Why did they help

:24:49. > :24:53.make the position worse by moving the production of Ford transit vans

:24:54. > :25:00.from Southampton to Turkey. I don't know about that, but what is

:25:01. > :25:04.clear... They gave grants to Turkey to move production from Southampton

:25:05. > :25:14.to Turkey. It helped contribute to making it worse. I don't accept they

:25:15. > :25:21.did that, I don't know about the details, but in a globalised world,

:25:22. > :25:27.big companies are looking at this referendum, making decisions, we got

:25:28. > :25:32.investment in the north-west, they think, if we are no longer the

:25:33. > :25:39.Gateway to the European market we will not receive foreign direct

:25:40. > :25:46.investment into the economy, harming jobs, growth, and the economy of the

:25:47. > :25:54.UK. In that market, why do you think unemployment fell and is 50% in

:25:55. > :25:57.Spain? Unemployment in those countries is unacceptably high and

:25:58. > :26:03.in some cases that is because of structural factors at work. When I

:26:04. > :26:08.was working in Brussels, the unemployment rate was always double

:26:09. > :26:11.and there has been structurally higher levels of unemployment. There

:26:12. > :26:19.is also the austerity policies that have been pursued by the European

:26:20. > :26:26.Union. There have been imbalances in those markets, Spain had a market

:26:27. > :26:32.based on selling houses, Greece had an economy where nobody collected

:26:33. > :26:37.taxes properly. These have been shown up by the recession, leading

:26:38. > :26:41.to consequences. Are you in favour of the UK having the ability to set

:26:42. > :26:45.limits on the number of EU citizens who come and work here? What I want

:26:46. > :26:51.us to do is have access to the single market. We are outside of the

:26:52. > :26:55.passport free Schengen zone, we are not part of the asylum policy. We

:26:56. > :26:59.choose the number of asylum seekers that come to this country. Your

:27:00. > :27:05.government has control over who comes here from outside the EU.

:27:06. > :27:09.There is more migration from outside the EU than from within the U. The

:27:10. > :27:15.question is, that free movement of people is one of the factors that

:27:16. > :27:20.gives us access. People have concerns. Do we throw the baby out

:27:21. > :27:25.with the bath water and wreck the economy with a vote to leave? You

:27:26. > :27:32.did not answer my question. Are you in favour of having any ability to

:27:33. > :27:37.set limits on the number of people from the EU who live and work here?

:27:38. > :27:43.Your Prime Minister has negotiated an opt out so that people who come

:27:44. > :27:47.here have to contribute to the economy for four years before they

:27:48. > :27:55.can access housing, social benefits, except try. -- etc. I think that is

:27:56. > :28:00.welcome and it is important that your government starts making

:28:01. > :28:03.investment in the NHS, housing, and in schools, the investment we need

:28:04. > :28:07.for those coming here. There are more people coming here from outside

:28:08. > :28:13.than from inside. You have control of that. Why are you not stopping

:28:14. > :28:18.it? Do you think people should be able to come from elsewhere in the

:28:19. > :28:23.EU to look for a job? There are 77,000 people who turn up at

:28:24. > :28:28.Victoria Coach Station or to near Port. Do you think that is OK? I

:28:29. > :28:35.think we have over a million people living in Spain have chosen to

:28:36. > :28:40.retire there, live and work there. We have 2 million British citizens

:28:41. > :28:43.who have chosen to live, work and invest in other European Union

:28:44. > :28:48.countries. When people come here to look for work, they look for work

:28:49. > :28:54.and generally find it, and we know that they generally put more into

:28:55. > :28:57.the economy than they take out. You are happy for people to come in

:28:58. > :29:04.unlimited numbers to look for work here. I've said there are more

:29:05. > :29:10.people coming from outside the EU, given visas from your government,

:29:11. > :29:14.and people make a contribution. What we don't want to do is throw the

:29:15. > :29:20.baby out with the bath water, wrecked the economy. That would mean

:29:21. > :29:25.less money for public sector services, and a weaker economy.

:29:26. > :29:29.You're happy that there should be no limits. More people come from

:29:30. > :29:31.outside the EU than come from inside.

:29:32. > :29:38.One of the main arguments of the Leave campaign is that the EU

:29:39. > :29:42.But are there signs that several EU initiatives have been put on ice

:29:43. > :29:45.or pushed off the agenda in an effort to avoid

:29:46. > :29:46.stirring up controversy until after the referendum?

:29:47. > :29:48.Critics have suggested that the Budget and proposals paving

:29:49. > :29:53.the way for a so-called EU army are being kept secret.

:29:54. > :29:55.Others suggest some awkward legislation like new eco-friendly

:29:56. > :29:57.regulations banning some kitchen appliances like toasters could be

:29:58. > :30:20.The familiar sights, things people expect to see in this

:30:21. > :30:31.great European city, the administrative home of the EU.

:30:32. > :30:34.But, underneath it all, there's something else.

:30:35. > :30:36.A place only a few people know about.

:30:37. > :30:43.The Musee des Egouts - The Sewer Museum.

:30:44. > :30:50.Do you get to see them on a daily basis?

:30:51. > :30:59.So, there are still some surprises lurking here in Brussels.

:31:00. > :31:01.The EU's critics say it is doing the same thing, that there

:31:02. > :31:06.is some nasty business still in the pipeline.

:31:07. > :31:09.They are keeping everything back until after the 24th,

:31:10. > :31:19.and then there's going to be a deluge, a tsunami.

:31:20. > :31:22.There's going to be all sorts of problems that

:31:23. > :31:25.on others, regulations they've held back, especially on things

:31:26. > :31:29.This is things like the Port Services Directive, which is ruinous

:31:30. > :31:32.Things like the licensing for art imports, which is a disaster

:31:33. > :31:35.The banning of high-power electrical appliances.

:31:36. > :31:37.And then, a little bit further down the line,

:31:38. > :31:39.more bailouts, higher budget contributions and, ultimately,

:31:40. > :31:41.the harmonisation of military capacity, what the European

:31:42. > :31:42.Commission describes as the strategic necessity

:31:43. > :31:54.Is the commission holding back on certain legislation that would be

:31:55. > :32:01.The commission is not saving up proposals.

:32:02. > :32:03.We are continuing to work on the basis of our

:32:04. > :32:10.Now, as to the question about the EU army, yes,

:32:11. > :32:13.I can also say very clearly that we have no plans

:32:14. > :32:20.But there are those in the European Parliament who think

:32:21. > :32:24.Britain's referendum is playing a role in delaying EU business.

:32:25. > :32:26.That's exactly what happened to the EU budget, according

:32:27. > :32:28.to the vice chair of the European Parliament's

:32:29. > :32:31.We would normally have the budget by now.

:32:32. > :32:36.It is being delayed, yes.

:32:37. > :32:44.I think everyone knows that Brexit and the vote, the referendum,

:32:45. > :32:50.There is certainly the migration reason for delaying it.

:32:51. > :32:53.But then, on the other hand, in politics commuting to say

:32:54. > :33:03.that this is the reason, then there are other things.

:33:04. > :33:07.The Green MEP that works on regulation to make kitchen

:33:08. > :33:08.appliances more eco-friendly says toasters were never

:33:09. > :33:15.Is there a sense here that there is much business in the EU

:33:16. > :33:17.being held up before the British referendum?

:33:18. > :33:21.Of course, the EU commission is very cautious, some legislative proposals

:33:22. > :33:31.We do that because we do not want to create negative stories

:33:32. > :33:35.which often are completely out of the blue and without any proof,

:33:36. > :33:39.because that is the reality of the British media.

:33:40. > :33:44.The Toaster Unit is somewhere, hidden in a secret, locked corridor.

:33:45. > :33:47.The Toaster Unit is what some journalists have called a special

:33:48. > :33:50.task force set up within the EU commission to deal with issues

:33:51. > :33:55.So called because of those stories in the British press that the EU had

:33:56. > :33:59.decided to shelve plans to change our toasters.

:34:00. > :34:01.It's led by the father of British Eurocrats,

:34:02. > :34:09.He has been here since the 70s, plays cricket, drinks tea,

:34:10. > :34:12.kind of understands some of what may explode in the UK.

:34:13. > :34:16.But we do know there is a British task force that has been dubbed

:34:17. > :34:21.Is that not evidence that you are at least prepared to hold

:34:22. > :34:26.I appreciate the effort to introduce into the commission pressroom

:34:27. > :34:30.tabloid terminology, there are issues to be addressed,

:34:31. > :34:33.Parliamentary questions to be answered.

:34:34. > :34:37.There is a whole internal work of coordination

:34:38. > :34:40.between the services, advice to the commission.

:34:41. > :34:43.So there is nothing special, extraordinary or toaster

:34:44. > :34:49.related aspects in the work of our colleagues.

:34:50. > :34:53.With less than two weeks to go until the referendum,

:34:54. > :34:55.it's maybe not surprising those in Brussels are keen

:34:56. > :34:58.the British public see the EU's best side.

:34:59. > :35:01.But, for others, it belies a "selfie-interest" -

:35:02. > :35:12.exactly what those wanting to leave say is wrong with the EU.

:35:13. > :35:19.We are joined from Shipley by the Labour MEP Richard Corbett.

:35:20. > :35:22.He is a former advisor to the President of the European

:35:23. > :35:24.Council so knows the workings of the EU very well.

:35:25. > :35:30.To your knowledge, is The Financial Times right to report that the EU

:35:31. > :35:35.Commission has delayed a second eco-friendly assault on household

:35:36. > :35:42.goods such as hairdryers and hostess trolleys until after the referendum?

:35:43. > :35:46.You know, in general, it is one of those scare stories, isn't it? They

:35:47. > :35:50.are about to spring proposals on us and they are holding them back. The

:35:51. > :35:55.nastier and worse they are, the better it is for the story. When you

:35:56. > :36:00.look into it, it is something as banal as the design of household

:36:01. > :36:04.appliances, to save people money and make them more efficient, not

:36:05. > :36:10.limiting their power but making them more efficient. Why were The

:36:11. > :36:16.Financial Times, probably the most pro-EU paper in the United Kingdom

:36:17. > :36:21.run a scare story? The Financial Times is also keen to ensure

:36:22. > :36:28.balance, it gives a say to each side. This is a news story, not an

:36:29. > :36:32.opinion piece? The question is, surely, so what? The European

:36:33. > :36:37.Commission only proposes, it is not the side. The proposals have to come

:36:38. > :36:40.to the Council of ministers, with a British minister around the table,

:36:41. > :36:44.answer to the European Parliament, for a decision. We are part of the

:36:45. > :36:48.decision taking process. It is not them telling us what to do, it is

:36:49. > :36:52.sitting around the table with our neighbouring countries to work out

:36:53. > :36:55.common rules for the common market to protect consumers, protect the

:36:56. > :37:00.environment or whatever the subject might be. What is wrong with that?

:37:01. > :37:05.What about the report in the Sunday Times this morning from diplomatic

:37:06. > :37:11.cable traffic that it looks like the deal between the EU and Turkey on

:37:12. > :37:14.controlling migration isn't going so well, and they are worried that

:37:15. > :37:18.Turkey might just open the floodgates again, but they are

:37:19. > :37:24.keeping it under wraps until after the vote on June the 23rd? Is that

:37:25. > :37:27.another scare story? I think the ongoing negotiations with Turkey

:37:28. > :37:31.have had their ups and downs for several months now. That is a very

:37:32. > :37:35.difficult situation. It would be no easier if we were outside the

:37:36. > :37:40.European Union or in. The flood of refugees coming out of Syria, going

:37:41. > :37:45.through Turkey and other countries, some in, some outside the EU like

:37:46. > :37:49.Macedonia and Serbia, that needs a cooperative effort at European level

:37:50. > :37:53.to try to reach agreement to handle that better. It is far better that

:37:54. > :37:57.we are in those negotiations than peripheral to them. It is in our

:37:58. > :38:07.interest to our say. What about moves to an EU army? It's the,

:38:08. > :38:09.quote, the framing of a progressive defence policy that might lead to a

:38:10. > :38:17.common defence. Why would there not be moves to having a EU army? The

:38:18. > :38:20.operational word is might. If you look at the procedure, it needs the

:38:21. > :38:28.unanimous consent of every single member state. By the way, in law, in

:38:29. > :38:30.Britain now, such a transfer of responsibilities to the European

:38:31. > :38:34.Union would require another referendum. Nothing like that can

:38:35. > :38:40.possibly happen without the British people agreeing with it. What I m

:38:41. > :38:44.trying to find out, is the idea .. The idea has been around since the

:38:45. > :38:48.early 1950s, the French national parliament rejected it in 1954.

:38:49. > :38:52.Various people come out and say wouldn't it be a good idea? And it

:38:53. > :38:57.has never happened. It may never happen, but it doesn't mean it

:38:58. > :39:00.won't. Many things have happened that you would think would never

:39:01. > :39:06.have happened 40 years ago. Jean-Claude Juncker wants a EU army,

:39:07. > :39:10.that is one powerful voice in favour? So do various people, but

:39:11. > :39:14.the commission can't decide it, it can only make suggestions. It is the

:39:15. > :39:19.member states. Every single member state has to agree, so it's not

:39:20. > :39:22.going to happen. Well, we don't know, do we? There are many things

:39:23. > :39:26.we were told would not happen, but they do. I'm trying to work out why

:39:27. > :39:33.people are not talking about these things at the moment. Not without

:39:34. > :39:37.our agreement, Andrew. The German defence minister says that the

:39:38. > :39:41.future belongs to a European army, it would strengthen Europe's

:39:42. > :39:45.security. We are told a German white Paper on this has been postponed

:39:46. > :39:51.until after the referendum. There is a second powerful voice in favour of

:39:52. > :39:56.it? Maybe it would, maybe it would not be a strengthening of European

:39:57. > :39:58.defence. The point is, for that to happen you would need a British

:39:59. > :40:03.government to agree it and it is enshrined in our national law that

:40:04. > :40:17.the decision, itself, would need a new referendum. Of course lots of

:40:18. > :40:21.people think X, Y, Z would happen, but they could not happen without

:40:22. > :40:26.our agreement. Officials in Brussels are talking about or preparing

:40:27. > :40:30.papers on a new treaty, higher budget, a EU intelligence service, a

:40:31. > :40:39.European army, more economic integration, new powers over health

:40:40. > :40:44.policy, scrapping zero rate VAT mandatory sharing of gas, even a

:40:45. > :40:48.common position on the IMF. We know that in the years ahead, some of

:40:49. > :40:53.that, by no means all, some of that will happen, won't it? It is the job

:40:54. > :40:56.of the European Commission to think of ideas, where it thinks it might

:40:57. > :41:00.be a good idea for the whole of Europe to work together on those

:41:01. > :41:04.subjects. But the commission does not decide. It puts that to the

:41:05. > :41:07.member states, the Council of ministers, a minister from every

:41:08. > :41:11.country around the table. Some of the things you have mentioned would

:41:12. > :41:14.even need a treaty change. All of that needs the agreement of the

:41:15. > :41:19.member states. The commission will come up with all kind of ideas,

:41:20. > :41:23.weird and wonderful, or sensible. That is its job. It is up to our

:41:24. > :41:28.ministers to accept or reject them. In many cases, it needs the approval

:41:29. > :41:33.of parliament, or even a referendum, according to British law. We are

:41:34. > :41:37.told this by people like you time and time again, it's not going to

:41:38. > :41:43.happen, if it does it will need our approval and the rest of it. We were

:41:44. > :41:47.told by a Labour minister... It might happen, if we were to agree to

:41:48. > :41:49.it. We were told by a Labour minister that the Charter of

:41:50. > :42:01.fundamental rights would have no more legal status than the Beano.

:42:02. > :42:05.Now it turns out it is written into the European Court of Justice and

:42:06. > :42:10.applies to Britain. It turned out to be a bit more important than the

:42:11. > :42:14.Beano, didn't it? If you look into that, actually, what the charter

:42:15. > :42:17.does is restrict what the European Union institutions can do. It more

:42:18. > :42:25.or less binds them to follow the same rules that we apply in Britain

:42:26. > :42:28.about human rights, which we negotiated in the separate deal on

:42:29. > :42:35.the European Convention of human rights. It applies to Britain? The

:42:36. > :42:43.fact is, it applies to Britain and we were told it didn't? What applies

:42:44. > :42:49.to Britain is very different, it's nothing to do with the EU, the

:42:50. > :42:54.European Convention On Human Rights. Churchill was a great champion not

:42:55. > :42:58.of that. I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about the Charter of

:42:59. > :43:07.fundamental rights and it is written into the European Court of justice?

:43:08. > :43:12.We were told it wouldn't be? Yes. What it says very clearly, that was

:43:13. > :43:15.clear when Britain ratified it, is that it binds the European

:43:16. > :43:19.institutions and the field of European Union law, even when we are

:43:20. > :43:22.applying it, to recognise and respect those fundamental rights

:43:23. > :43:26.that we would expect everybody to follow, and now that is also binding

:43:27. > :43:30.on the European institutions. It restricts them in what they can

:43:31. > :43:33.propose and what they can do to make sure they respect the same rights

:43:34. > :43:36.that we would want them to respect. Thank you for joining us today.

:43:37. > :43:38.At this late stage in the EU referendum campaign,

:43:39. > :43:40.the majority of MPs have announced their voting intentions.

:43:41. > :43:43.But there are a few who are still making up their minds and some

:43:44. > :43:47.This week, John Mann and Dennis Skinner put the number

:43:48. > :43:50.of Labour MPs declaring they'd vote to leave the EU into double figures

:43:51. > :43:54.And Labour MP Khalid Mahmood announced he's joining

:43:55. > :43:56.the campaign to keep Britain in the European Union -

:43:57. > :43:59.after previously backing the campaign to leave.

:44:00. > :44:01.Khalid joins us from the Birmingham studio and John Mann

:44:02. > :44:12.John Conner let me come to you first. You said you are going to

:44:13. > :44:16.vote to leave. You told us that on Friday. Why did you leave it so late

:44:17. > :44:20.to declare? I had to weigh up all of the issues, these are not

:44:21. > :44:25.straightforward decisions. The big question for me is, the EU is

:44:26. > :44:30.broken, fundamentally broken. Can it be reformed from the inside or not?

:44:31. > :44:37.My conclusion is that it can't be. One of the reasons is that David

:44:38. > :44:39.Cameron's negotiations, even on the absurdity of child benefits being

:44:40. > :44:44.paid to children that have never been in this country, he could not

:44:45. > :44:49.get agreement on that. It is because the structures of the European Union

:44:50. > :44:54.do not allow that kind of common-sense change to take place.

:44:55. > :45:01.It is there, in the rules, and it can't be changed. Khalid Mahmood,

:45:02. > :45:04.you previously backed the campaign to leave, you now think we should

:45:05. > :45:08.remain. You say you are worried about the threat to workers' rights

:45:09. > :45:16.if we leave the EU. How have you only realise that now?

:45:17. > :45:25.I wanted to look at the wider agenda and work to resolve that. A lot of

:45:26. > :45:33.the debate has focused on issues that have frightened people,

:45:34. > :45:36.particularly on the Leave side, and people trying to contextualise it

:45:37. > :45:43.about immigration. The whole thing is about how we deal to it -- with

:45:44. > :45:44.it. If you don't doctor Europe, it makes immigration far worse. We need

:45:45. > :45:52.to look at how you to restrict borders,

:45:53. > :45:58.stop people coming in. We've done that with an agreement with France

:45:59. > :46:03.to put up fences to stop people coming onto the trains through the

:46:04. > :46:17.tunnel. We've worked together to do that. What do you say to that? The

:46:18. > :46:24.European Union has failed. Angela Merkel unilaterally decided on

:46:25. > :46:31.behalf of Germany to have 1 million Syrians come to Germany. What was

:46:32. > :46:36.less noticed was she a load huge numbers of Kosovans to come to

:46:37. > :46:42.Germany. -- she allowed. The German economists said they needed 3

:46:43. > :46:48.million workers. That has a huge impact on the rest of the European

:46:49. > :46:52.Union. This concept of the European citizen rather than the British

:46:53. > :46:58.citizen, the German citizen, is the fundamental fault line in the

:46:59. > :47:02.European Union, that it cannot fix. If that was fixed it would be a

:47:03. > :47:07.different proposition but it cannot be. That is why the issue of

:47:08. > :47:14.immigration is so toxic. We don t know what will happen in ten, 2 , 30

:47:15. > :47:18.years. We have no control over it. The only way we will know is if we

:47:19. > :47:25.engage with it and make the decisions from inside. We are the

:47:26. > :47:30.final destination. If we don't cooperate with Europe and France,

:47:31. > :47:41.and the Borders are open, and the French have no incentive not to let

:47:42. > :47:51.people come through, we have to work together to resolve these issues.

:47:52. > :47:54.We've only got a couple of minutes. We are being told by a number of

:47:55. > :48:01.Labour politicians on both sides of the argument that it is proving a

:48:02. > :48:12.struggle to get the Labour vote out for remain. Have you found that The

:48:13. > :48:19.reason I joined is we want to get the vote out more effectively. If it

:48:20. > :48:24.is struggle? We are working hard to make sure we get people out. Yes,

:48:25. > :48:31.that is why I wanted to join, push people forward. You think it's a

:48:32. > :48:40.struggle. Most people are making up their own minds. The Westminster

:48:41. > :48:44.bubble debate and the Leave campaign against the Remain campaign is not

:48:45. > :48:47.the same as the debate going on in workplaces and households. There is

:48:48. > :48:54.an entirely different debate going on. It is quite clear the Labour

:48:55. > :48:58.Party is not entirely in touch with Labour voters on this issue. I thank

:48:59. > :49:01.you both for joining us. It's coming up to 11.50,

:49:02. > :49:03.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:49:04. > :49:06.in Scotland who leave us now Coming up here in 20,

:49:07. > :49:08.the Week Ahead. First though, the Sunday

:49:09. > :49:20.Politics where you are. And let's say hello straight away

:49:21. > :49:27.to Kwasi Kwarteng, the Conservative MP for Spelthorne,

:49:28. > :49:29.who supports the Leave campaign and by Andy Slaughter

:49:30. > :49:31.the Labour MP for Hammersmith, who supports the campaign to Remain

:49:32. > :49:49.in the EU. Welcome to you both. What does

:49:50. > :49:55.Jeremy Corbyn have to do to help you win the Remain campaign? He is

:49:56. > :50:00.setting exactly the right note, emphasising the positive reasons

:50:01. > :50:05.that will go down well with Labour voters about why we should stay in

:50:06. > :50:08.the EU, to do with protection, environmental protection, social

:50:09. > :50:15.protections, the same things we benefited from and which protect

:50:16. > :50:24.ordinary people from the ravages of capitalism at its worst. At the same

:50:25. > :50:36.time people know that Jeremy is sincere. It hit the right note.

:50:37. > :50:42.You're on the other side from your leader. How do you think he's been

:50:43. > :50:48.handling the campaign? I think the campaign is rattled. The edge is

:50:49. > :50:54.still with Remain, to be honest but they are clearly very worried this

:50:55. > :51:00.will not go their way. The Prime Minister has started saying, there

:51:01. > :51:05.must not be any blue on blue attacks, then you saw quite strong

:51:06. > :51:13.attacks on Boris Johnson. Clearly there has been a shift. I think the

:51:14. > :51:17.Remain campaign is quite worried and therefore we are hearing more

:51:18. > :51:28.personal attacks. Let's get into some of the detail. One of the areas

:51:29. > :51:31.is, when you ask people whether strongholds are of the Leave

:51:32. > :51:34.campaign, people suggest parts of Kent and their sixth.

:51:35. > :51:36.As do northern towns full of disaffected Labour voters.

:51:37. > :51:38.But according to research, the place with the strongest

:51:39. > :51:41.yearning to leave the EU is the East London borough of Havering.

:51:42. > :51:44.Andrew Cryan is there for us this morning.

:51:45. > :51:47.While opinion polls tend to suggest that Londoners are leaning more

:51:48. > :51:50.towards In than Out, according to one bit of research

:51:51. > :51:53.east London's Havering wants to leave the EU more than any other

:51:54. > :51:59.Earlier this year, the council even became the first in the country

:52:00. > :52:03.to officially passed a motion that next EU backed Brexit.

:52:04. > :52:06.So if this really is the most Eurosceptic place in the country,

:52:07. > :52:15.First things first, much of Havering looks and feels much more

:52:16. > :52:19.like the English countryside than its capital city.

:52:20. > :52:22.Half the borough is protected green belt land and, until the 1960s,

:52:23. > :52:25.it was officially classed as Essex, rather than London.

:52:26. > :52:29.Many locals still feel that old identity.

:52:30. > :52:35.I feel Essex because historically I think the boundaries

:52:36. > :52:47.There are some super little villages are still left.

:52:48. > :52:51.But whether London or Essex, Havering is most

:52:52. > :52:54.In Romford market, flags were on proud

:52:55. > :52:57.display, along with Vote Leave banners.

:52:58. > :52:59.100% Out, yeah.

:53:00. > :53:10.It's all the housing, benefits, I think we are losing control.

:53:11. > :53:12.These criminals that are coming in, we've got no way of

:53:13. > :53:14.controlling them, no way of knowing where they are.

:53:15. > :53:20.I think it will put the Great back in Great Britain.

:53:21. > :53:24.We've been in Romford market talking to people for probably about an hour

:53:25. > :53:27.or so and there has been a couple of people that didn't know

:53:28. > :53:29.which way they were going, one person said they weren't

:53:30. > :53:32.going to vote, but apart from that everybody has said they want

:53:33. > :53:37.Reasons as far afield as the price of houses, schools

:53:38. > :53:40.the state of the NHS, the state of Romford market.

:53:41. > :53:43.It's almost as if leaving Europe has become the answer to almost

:53:44. > :53:50.Five generations of the Robins family have worked in

:53:51. > :53:54.They are now joined by 15 Lithuanians.

:53:55. > :53:58.Like many locals, this business started in the East End, but moved

:53:59. > :54:04.According to matriarch June, that migration eastwards

:54:05. > :54:07.explains why Havering people feel so strongly.

:54:08. > :54:10.They have moved out of the area where they have been

:54:11. > :54:12.living and brought up because they were

:54:13. > :54:20.In Upton Park, where I was brought up, I'm very proud to be English.

:54:21. > :54:22.This shop is very clean, as you've, you have

:54:23. > :54:25.It's beautiful and clean, anyway you look,

:54:26. > :54:42.They gut their fish, gut their chickens, it

:54:43. > :54:51.If we control our borders - we can't get them people out now,

:54:52. > :54:55.Of course, not everybody here feels the same way about immigration.

:54:56. > :55:00.Others did tell us they were worried about a loss of British identity.

:55:01. > :55:07.Everyone you talk to, they say it's not Britain now.

:55:08. > :55:11.I wouldn't class myself as European at all.

:55:12. > :55:25.There's no question that there's a lot of support on the ground

:55:26. > :55:31.But we'll have to wait until the referendum results to find

:55:32. > :55:43.out if it really is the most Eurosceptic place in Britain.

:55:44. > :55:51.Do you think those concerns are widespread in London? I think he's a

:55:52. > :56:00.ring has a particular character that came out in your video. -- Havering.

:56:01. > :56:05.I was in my constituency, just outside the Greater London boundary,

:56:06. > :56:16.we had a great Tea Party celebrating Her Majesty's 90th. About everyone I

:56:17. > :56:21.spoke to was going to vote Leave. There were concerns in your

:56:22. > :56:27.constituency about the levels of immigration? I don't think you will

:56:28. > :56:32.have the same level of concern, because there are borrowers which

:56:33. > :56:37.are much more at ease with the changes, the economy thrives on a

:56:38. > :56:48.fast moving population so I don t think you will find exactly the same

:56:49. > :56:52.sentiments but you do find in the suburbs, those sentiments are widely

:56:53. > :56:58.held. Are you concerned about the levels of immigration? I was out

:56:59. > :57:03.yesterday knocking on doors and I thought even what we've been told we

:57:04. > :57:12.would concentrate on the core Labour areas, working-class areas, and

:57:13. > :57:19.overwhelmingly for Remain. Even more so than wealthy middle-class parts.

:57:20. > :57:28.A real understanding of issues. It was very gratifying. Still over half

:57:29. > :57:40.of the immigration is from outside of the EU. Do you think there is too

:57:41. > :57:45.much EU immigration, the levels of EU immigration are too high? About

:57:46. > :57:52.15% of my constituents are EU nationals. Almost 50% were born

:57:53. > :57:57.outside the UK. It is simply part of the cultural mix. The Polish

:57:58. > :58:06.community but we've had that since after the Second World War. It is

:58:07. > :58:11.honestly not an issue. For me and my constituents. I do understand it is

:58:12. > :58:18.elsewhere and I will be trying to maximise the Remain thought. Nobody

:58:19. > :58:21.has thought about it since the Second World War, but what has

:58:22. > :58:26.happened is the free movement is hundreds of thousands of EU migrants

:58:27. > :58:32.have come in. To say this is the normal state of affairs is simply

:58:33. > :58:36.not true. The scale of immigration. I'm the son of immigrants and I know

:58:37. > :58:39.about this subject. The scale is completely different to what was the

:58:40. > :58:45.case in the 50 years after the Second World War. It is a completely

:58:46. > :58:54.different order and to protect it is not different is to turn a blind

:58:55. > :58:57.face against the voters. You are fighting against history. There are

:58:58. > :59:04.millions of British people who've chosen to go and live in Europe

:59:05. > :59:09.Sorry to interrupt the flow, let's try and get a bit more from

:59:10. > :59:17.Havering. Our reporter is in a pie and mash shop.

:59:18. > :59:33.We are in the pie and mash shop you saw in the film. Lawrence, the polls

:59:34. > :59:38.suggest that London is leaning towards Remain, why is it different

:59:39. > :59:41.here? Despite the best efforts of the government, we are still able to

:59:42. > :59:46.think for ourselves and we want out, we will not be swayed by Cameron's

:59:47. > :59:53.scare tactics. Is it as simple as that? In the film, a lot of people

:59:54. > :59:56.said that they are old East Enders, they moved out here, partly because

:59:57. > :59:59.of immigration, they didn't like what happened, we heard one person

:00:00. > :00:06.in the film saying that immigrants had the tone of old East End. I did

:00:07. > :00:13.not see the video, but we are voting for one thing alone, who governs the

:00:14. > :00:17.country. That is the only thing we are voting on. When you speak to

:00:18. > :00:21.people in Havering, ten different people will give you ten different

:00:22. > :00:26.reasons, but it is basically who makes the laws that govern the

:00:27. > :00:31.country. Lets get back to that, you talk to ten different people, you

:00:32. > :00:36.get ten different reasons, it's to do with benefits, the NHS, the price

:00:37. > :00:41.of houses, the state of the market. You cannot pretend that all of those

:00:42. > :00:45.problems will be solved if we leave the EU? You mentioned immigration,

:00:46. > :00:51.we like to call the free movement of people, that is what it is in the

:00:52. > :00:53.EU. There is clearly an impact on the Health Service, schools,

:00:54. > :00:58.housing, all of those things are driven by the numbers of people

:00:59. > :01:02.coming to settle in this country. The Office of National Statistics,

:01:03. > :01:08.their own figures show that last year 590,000 people from the EU came

:01:09. > :01:11.to settle in the UK, or were given national insurance numbers, which

:01:12. > :01:20.they need to live, work or claim benefits. If Havering feels so

:01:21. > :01:24.strongly, what does that mean for votes, why does that not translate

:01:25. > :01:28.into votes for Ukip? It's not translate into people wanting to

:01:29. > :01:32.vote for you? The winning party only got 28%, we are not that far behind.

:01:33. > :01:37.Things are progressively moving It's the first time we have fought

:01:38. > :01:45.back hard in Havering. To win seven seats, from zero, it's pretty good.

:01:46. > :01:48.Why do you think it is that the rest of London is leaning towards Remain?

:01:49. > :01:56.You mention that yourself, there is a huge demographic change across

:01:57. > :01:59.London, many people in the boroughs are EU citizens that have come here

:02:00. > :02:03.to improve their lot in life, and nobody can blame them for that, but

:02:04. > :02:08.they are probably not going to vote to leave. Thank very much. Next week

:02:09. > :02:11.I will be in the London Borough of Lambeth, which according to the same

:02:12. > :02:16.bit of research that said Havering wanted to leave, claims that Lambeth

:02:17. > :02:21.is the place that wants to stay the most.

:02:22. > :02:27.Kwasi Kwarteng, what is your calculation about the impact of

:02:28. > :02:30.immigration? Is the pressure that they put on infrastructure

:02:31. > :02:35.outweighed by the economic benefit? To say there are no benefits,

:02:36. > :02:40.clearly immigration has been part of western countries, the world, for

:02:41. > :02:47.many years. To turn your face against overwhelming evidence that

:02:48. > :02:50.it poses pressure on services, certainly in my constituency, school

:02:51. > :02:54.places are very difficult to find now as a consequence of the weight

:02:55. > :02:57.of the population increase. If we don't plan for it, the problem will

:02:58. > :03:05.not get easier, it will get worse. You must be seen that in Hammersmith

:03:06. > :03:12.and Fulham? The guy from Ukip, he could not really answer the question

:03:13. > :03:16.why London is a Remain city, the EU national don't even have a vote in

:03:17. > :03:20.the referendum, that level of ignorance... Are there no pressures

:03:21. > :03:24.on infrastructure in Hammersmith and Fulham? There are, there are

:03:25. > :03:26.pressures on infrastructure because we are not building the houses we

:03:27. > :03:35.should be, we are building luxury houses. In the areas where they are

:03:36. > :03:39.building them, are they going to be affordable? You are demolishing the

:03:40. > :03:43.major hospital when there is an increasing demand for A services.

:03:44. > :03:46.Let's put the blame where it lies, with a Conservative government. How

:03:47. > :03:51.can it be the Conservative Government? Who was in government

:03:52. > :03:58.towards the end of the 2000s, when one had to make plans in preparation

:03:59. > :04:04.for this influx of EU migrants? It began with Labour? Absolutely, can I

:04:05. > :04:08.make a point? Yes, after I have answered the question. It's an

:04:09. > :04:14.extraordinary thing to say. We are in the process now, we are beginning

:04:15. > :04:17.to build homes. They are not the right kind of homes. The government

:04:18. > :04:22.by Chris at the wrong target, and Boris Johnson as well, not building

:04:23. > :04:26.affordable housing. This is typical of the Brexit misinformation that we

:04:27. > :04:32.are having. Let's get this straight... Europe is responsible

:04:33. > :04:37.for everything, let's put the blame where it lies, on our own

:04:38. > :04:42.government. They miscalculated the effect of the expansion of the EU,

:04:43. > :04:46.they said it would be 16,000 people a year, in 2004, they admitted, you

:04:47. > :04:52.can read the memoirs, they said they got it wrong. Tony Blair, Gordon

:04:53. > :04:54.Brown, Alistair Darling, they miscalculated the number of people.

:04:55. > :04:59.If you miscalculate, you're not going to be able to plan. They

:05:00. > :05:03.didn't know there would be 150, 00. When Polish people are coming over

:05:04. > :05:08.here with education, graduates, their training, all paid for by the

:05:09. > :05:13.Polish, we are getting that for free, often they are doubling up,

:05:14. > :05:16.not living in particularly fantastic conditions, you have already

:05:17. > :05:20.conceded that they are providing a net economic benefit which we are

:05:21. > :05:24.going to lose? Forgive me, the point about this hard it is not if we are

:05:25. > :05:29.having immigration or not, it is how we can control it. By near virtue of

:05:30. > :05:34.having a Bulgarian passport, if you have the right to come into Britain,

:05:35. > :05:37.and the minimum wage in Bulgaria is ?1 per hour, it is a huge incentive

:05:38. > :05:40.for people to come and we don't have a choice. It's not like we can look

:05:41. > :05:44.up their credentials and training, they have an automatic right to come

:05:45. > :05:51.to Britain. That is where the tension is and that is where Vote

:05:52. > :05:56.Leave will win. London is built on immigrant labour. Nobody denies

:05:57. > :06:00.that! You set up a free enterprise group, famous for saying that

:06:01. > :06:03.British workers were the most idle in the world. Prominent members are

:06:04. > :06:09.the likes of Liz Truss and Sajid Javid, and are now in the Cabinet

:06:10. > :06:14.and are now Remain! Maybe Boris will give you a job in the Cabinet?

:06:15. > :06:17.It was a central pledge in his campaign manifesto -

:06:18. > :06:24.to freeze transport fares for four years.

:06:25. > :06:32.What did that mean? Well, not all fares. It emerged it would apply to

:06:33. > :06:34.transport for London services for which he was responsible.

:06:35. > :06:36.Sidiq Khan's manifesto could not be any clearer.

:06:37. > :06:38.On page eight it says, Londoners won't pay a penny

:06:39. > :06:43.more for their travel in 2020 than they do today.

:06:44. > :06:45.Words which Sidiq Khan reiterated throughout

:06:46. > :06:49.However, just above that was this line, which suggested it would only

:06:50. > :07:01.I only have the power to set fares on TfL services.

:07:02. > :07:04.Londoners who only use travel cards or who only use Network Rail

:07:05. > :07:06.services will find the cost of their travel

:07:07. > :07:11.For pay-as-you-go customers, weekly and daily caps will also

:07:12. > :07:19.It attracted criticism from London assembly members who believed

:07:20. > :07:28.He has been, at the very least, disingenuous in not

:07:29. > :07:30.introducing caveats during the campaigns so people

:07:31. > :07:32.actually understood what they were voting for.

:07:33. > :07:34.The freeze is expected to cost ?640 million, higher

:07:35. > :07:36.than Sadiq Khan's estimate of ?450 million but significantly

:07:37. > :07:39.lower than transport for London s ?1.9 billion estimate.

:07:40. > :07:41.So, after a short honeymoon, has Sidiq Khan's post-election

:07:42. > :07:56.Has it? I think that he is a very skilful politician, he said lots of

:07:57. > :08:00.things on the campaign trail and he even contradicted himself on the

:08:01. > :08:04.campaign trail. If you look at his endorsement of Jeremy Corbyn to win

:08:05. > :08:07.the nomination to beat Tessa Jowell, seen as the Blairite candidate, then

:08:08. > :08:10.he turned on Jeremy Corbyn in the run-up to the election because he

:08:11. > :08:17.realised he was not particularly popular among swing voters. He

:08:18. > :08:20.controls are some TfL fares, was it misleading? I don't know what was

:08:21. > :08:23.going through his mind. Clearly there is some mismatch between what

:08:24. > :08:26.he is saying now and what he said before the election. The public or

:08:27. > :08:35.the Conservatives misunderstanding because nobody seemed to raise the

:08:36. > :08:37.question? They should have done an oversight in our campaign. He

:08:38. > :08:40.clearly backtracked or shifted his position from where he was before

:08:41. > :08:46.the election. Can there be any doubt in Londoners' minds that they were

:08:47. > :08:50.being promised a freeze and they would not pay a penny more when they

:08:51. > :08:55.travelled within London for four years? The facts on this, we have

:08:56. > :09:00.?640 million, it is higher than the estimate, but it is a third of what

:09:01. > :09:07.Zac Goldsmith, he was going to put fares up by 17%, said it would cost.

:09:08. > :09:11.That is helpful, but... That ?6 0 million will be coming through

:09:12. > :09:15.better running. It might be helpful background, but could Londoners have

:09:16. > :09:21.been in any doubt from Sadiq Khan they were not going to pay any more,

:09:22. > :09:24.even if... So far, exactly what he said. Even if they were travelling

:09:25. > :09:30.on the railways, even if they were paying by travel card, were they

:09:31. > :09:34.entitled to believe that they were not going to pay any more? I don't

:09:35. > :09:37.think this is being reported properly. Everything he can do

:09:38. > :09:42.within his power, he is doing. And he will do more, provided that the

:09:43. > :09:47.train companies and the government co-operate. Do you think he should

:09:48. > :09:51.have clarified this? If you can transfer south-east and south-west

:09:52. > :09:55.trains over to control of TfL, who I think we'll run it better, if the

:09:56. > :10:01.government get tough with a train companies... Lots of ifs is Mark OK,

:10:02. > :10:12.you have a go. EU you have spoken a lot, lot 's of

:10:13. > :10:18.ifs, but there is clearly a mismatch between a freeze and the prices up.

:10:19. > :10:22.A ten-year-old can see there is a mismatch. I'm not saying he lied,

:10:23. > :10:27.but there is a mismatch between what he promised before the election

:10:28. > :10:29.Presumably one reason why the Conservatives didn't point this out

:10:30. > :10:33.is because it could have highlighted the fact that we would have all

:10:34. > :10:36.asked, is the government not going to guarantee to freeze the element

:10:37. > :10:42.of the rail fares coming in which are not owned by TfL? The Government

:10:43. > :10:45.would not have done that. I don t want to rerun the campaign, I don't

:10:46. > :10:48.know why we didn't say that. If a candidate says there will be a

:10:49. > :10:53.freeze and then says there will not be, there is a problem, the voters

:10:54. > :10:59.have been misdirected. Can I just say, you could be a bit too clever

:11:00. > :11:02.by half in a campaign? We have had this suggestion with housing as

:11:03. > :11:07.well, but it seemed pretty clear to people it was going to be all fares?

:11:08. > :11:12.He's done everything in his power, he can do more if the Government

:11:13. > :11:19.cooperate. The average family will save ?240. He's giving back ?64

:11:20. > :11:25.million back to Londoners. Are you saying it is too complicated to

:11:26. > :11:33.explain to Londoners? It was explained. A freeze is not

:11:34. > :11:36.complicated, it is clear! For those people coming in from your

:11:37. > :11:43.constituency into London, appealed to the Department for Transport now

:11:44. > :11:44.to freeze it? We do that all the time. But a freeze is very

:11:45. > :11:49.different. Thank you both. Just time to tell you about BBC

:11:50. > :11:51.London's referendum debate tonight. Is London better

:11:52. > :11:54.in or out of the EU? Politicians and leading business

:11:55. > :11:56.people will debate the key issues affecting the capital in front

:11:57. > :12:00.of a studio audience. That's Better In or Out,

:12:01. > :12:04.A BBC London Referendum Special this Sunday night at 10.35

:12:05. > :12:08.on BBC One. My thanks to my guests

:12:09. > :12:10.Kwasi Kwarteng and Andy Slaughter. The House of Commons inquiry into

:12:11. > :12:26.the collapse of the HS rumbles on. We're joined in the studio

:12:27. > :12:28.by the Conservative member of the Business Select Committee

:12:29. > :12:32.Richard Fuller. The former owner Sir Philip Green

:12:33. > :12:35.has been summoned to face questioning by Richard's committee

:12:36. > :12:38.on Wednesday but the retail billionaire yesterday declared

:12:39. > :12:40.he was "not prepared to participate" unless the chair of the Work

:12:41. > :13:19.and Pensions committee Frank Field My response is that the House of

:13:20. > :13:25.Commons appoints the chairman. The select committees, because there are

:13:26. > :13:28.two expect Sir Philip to appear on Wednesday. Sir Philip has a lot of

:13:29. > :13:32.key questions to answer. He calls the shots, he is the person that can

:13:33. > :13:38.actually answer. Parliament expects him to turn up on Wednesday.

:13:39. > :13:43.Richard, nobody expects Frank Field to resign? No. Is full of green

:13:44. > :13:51.looking for a way of trying to avoid appearing? -- Philip Green. He may

:13:52. > :13:54.call the shots at British Home Stores, but no matter how big you

:13:55. > :13:57.are, you don't call the shots on Parliament. Obviously he knows that,

:13:58. > :14:02.he must be trying to express his own concerns. He thinks it is because of

:14:03. > :14:07.the committee. But lots of the evidence against him has come from

:14:08. > :14:13.the people he sold the company to, advisers to him on that transaction.

:14:14. > :14:17.They are going against each other now, aren't they? Those that sold

:14:18. > :14:22.and bought the company, it is like rats in a sack, isn't it? If I was

:14:23. > :14:26.an employee had British Home Stores, I would be shocked at how little

:14:27. > :14:31.regard was paid by any of these people in their employment, in their

:14:32. > :14:34.stores, and if I was someone with a pension, I would be concerned why

:14:35. > :14:37.somebody was taken out of the profits and the reserves, the

:14:38. > :14:40.important thing is that Philip Green took the money out of the reserves.

:14:41. > :14:48.There was a need to put money back in and he was found wanting. Can you

:14:49. > :14:52.force him to appear? I think the force of public opinion will suggest

:14:53. > :14:55.that he should come. I don't know that Parliament needs to send the

:14:56. > :15:01.Sergeant at Arms to drag him, kicking and screaming. Why should he

:15:02. > :15:07.be susceptible, a billionaire, who splits his time between Monaco and

:15:08. > :15:11.Park Lane, where does he come face-to-face with public opinion? He

:15:12. > :15:14.has his own reputation, he made assertions he was trying to do the

:15:15. > :15:23.right thing, come and show that two us. Secondly, he relied on advisers,

:15:24. > :15:29.that he was the director of the company and their response validity

:15:30. > :15:32.needs to answer. -- there are respot abilities he needs to answer. If

:15:33. > :15:36.it's so important, you talk about the pensioners, people who are

:15:37. > :15:43.retired, they depend on their pension, 11,000 BHS workers who have

:15:44. > :15:46.done nothing wrong at all apart from turn up every day and work hard for

:15:47. > :15:51.their store, they now lose their job as well. Shouldn't Parliament, if

:15:52. > :15:52.you were a US congressional committee, you would have the power

:15:53. > :16:03.to subpoena him. We discussed on my committee with

:16:04. > :16:10.Mike Ashley. In the end he decided to come. We did not need to take

:16:11. > :16:15.further action. My understanding is opinion is divided on this, it is

:16:16. > :16:20.not clear if a Parliamentary select committee can for somebody to give

:16:21. > :16:26.evidence. Exactly right. It is not clear whether we have the ultimate

:16:27. > :16:31.sanction of forcing someone to come under law. There has always been an

:16:32. > :16:35.expectation that if people are asked to account for their actions they

:16:36. > :16:41.would come. If Sir Philip Green wants to be the first person to

:16:42. > :16:46.stand against that then so be it. VHS was sold for ?1. That puts a big

:16:47. > :16:53.neon sign above the whole transaction. -- BHS. It was sold to

:16:54. > :16:59.a man who was three times bankrupt. We don't know why the business

:17:00. > :17:06.department or the regulators let this happen. If Parliament is to

:17:07. > :17:14.matter it surely has to be able to force these people to come and speak

:17:15. > :17:18.to it? The moral pressure had an excerpt is still fairly impressive.

:17:19. > :17:26.We did see Mike Ashley, a billionaire. Rupert Murdoch was

:17:27. > :17:35.forced to turn up by pressure. What happens if there is an empty seat?

:17:36. > :17:39.Mike Ashley, we're not suggesting he did anything legally wrong. His

:17:40. > :17:47.company was not paying the minimum wage. Even that moral pressure was

:17:48. > :17:51.enough to get him to turn up, as a billionaire retailer. Parliament is

:17:52. > :17:58.still pretty impressive. My understanding is it is a quasi

:17:59. > :18:02.judicial event, and he can be dragged in front of the Speaker of

:18:03. > :18:09.the house, and absolutely we should do that. It has been a terribly bad

:18:10. > :18:12.week for business, it put them in a very bad light. The idea you can

:18:13. > :18:18.have a knighthood and be a billionaire on your jot and put two

:18:19. > :18:25.fingers up to the representatives of the British people, I don't think

:18:26. > :18:28.so. What is your take on this? Thousands of jobs that they sold for

:18:29. > :18:35.a poem, the allegations that have been made by the gentleman who

:18:36. > :18:38.bought the business are eye watering. I'm sure the public would

:18:39. > :18:45.like to see Sir Philip Green brought kicking and screaming. He can decide

:18:46. > :18:50.not to come but that would tell everyone answers to the questions we

:18:51. > :18:54.want him to answer. It is a chance for him to put the record straight

:18:55. > :19:01.if there is a story for him to tell otherwise people will draw their own

:19:02. > :19:08.conclusions. He can bring Kate Moss on his arm. What would we do if he

:19:09. > :19:13.does not turn up, would that be grounds for being stripped of the

:19:14. > :19:17.knighthood? I have always said we need to wait for him to come and

:19:18. > :19:21.answer the questions and there are very serious concerns about his

:19:22. > :19:25.behaviour if he does not come, and at that stage then within the rules

:19:26. > :19:26.of how you can be stripped of an honour I think they would very

:19:27. > :19:29.seriously look at that. Jeremy Corbyn's advisers

:19:30. > :19:31.are sceptical of what they call Perhaps that's why, on Friday night,

:19:32. > :19:36.the Labour leader appeared to explain his views on Europe,

:19:37. > :19:40.not on a political analysis programme but on the Channel 4

:19:41. > :19:46.comedy gig The Last Leg. And if you thought the great

:19:47. > :19:48.Jezza was all allotments It seems he also does

:19:49. > :20:39.Bentleys and bling. Why? To show that he's up for a

:20:40. > :20:44.laugh. People will think that. There is a risk because other people might

:20:45. > :20:54.open the newspaper and see the pictures. So it was all right to do

:20:55. > :20:58.that? I think so. You never know? People might think he does that at

:20:59. > :21:05.the weekend. Old jumpers during the week. Fake fire at the weekend? You

:21:06. > :21:11.might be right. I find that a stretch. They wanted to show he had

:21:12. > :21:18.a sense of humour. He came across very well. It was very witty. Unless

:21:19. > :21:22.you want to be Prime Minister. People who want to be by Minister

:21:23. > :21:28.cannot be the type of people who want to have a laugh? -- Prime

:21:29. > :21:36.Minister. I do think people like to take seriously people who want to

:21:37. > :21:40.become Prime Minister. Was it an attempt to put more humanity on him?

:21:41. > :21:47.They must have thought long and hard about doing this. I'm not sure they

:21:48. > :21:52.think long and hard about anything. Your initial question was why, I

:21:53. > :21:54.think the answer is I don't think he wants to be premature and I don t

:21:55. > :21:59.think he thinks he will ever be Prime Minister and therefore the

:22:00. > :22:04.cost of this type of gesture is minimal. He is not missing out on

:22:05. > :22:10.vote that he wants anyway. He said one thing during the performance

:22:11. > :22:21.which the press interpreted as embarrassing, he said 70% Remain.

:22:22. > :22:23.More than I thought he was. I think, perversely, might resonate with more

:22:24. > :22:32.marginal voters than we think, people who will grudgingly consider

:22:33. > :22:37.voting to stay in. I wonder whether he has arrived at a line which is

:22:38. > :22:45.more persuasive than David Cameron. I thought he performed quite well,

:22:46. > :22:51.this relief that he can open his top button, Showtime. He could have a

:22:52. > :22:55.future with an acting career. We have the tooting by-election. Don't

:22:56. > :23:00.mention any of the candidates or I need to go through the lot. It is

:23:01. > :23:09.being overshadowed by the referendum. Is it significant? It

:23:10. > :23:15.was reasonably tight at the last election and before Sadiq Khan one,

:23:16. > :23:22.people said it could be lost for Labour. I would be surprised, in the

:23:23. > :23:29.wake of the mayoral election, which gave a boost to Labour. The money is

:23:30. > :23:33.on Labour to keep the seat. If the Tories when it will be very

:23:34. > :23:40.significant, actually, by-elections are not very significant. You say

:23:41. > :23:44.that but some of us needs to be up on the night to cover them. It would

:23:45. > :23:53.be significant for the Tories to win it. A long shot while they are

:23:54. > :23:57.knocking lumps out of each other. The most telling thing is even in

:23:58. > :24:05.the current state they are three points ahead of Labour. Tooting is

:24:06. > :24:09.trending long-term because there are more prosperous people in it. This

:24:10. > :24:16.might be a bit too early to take advantage of that but you could

:24:17. > :24:16.imagine it is one of those seats in 2020 that could

:24:17. > :24:27.turn blue if Jeremy Corbyn is still leader. Thank you for being with us.

:24:28. > :24:33.We will look with interest to see who is with you on Wednesday. Maybe

:24:34. > :24:39.with the fur coat? If you would like to know the result, June in on ABC

:24:40. > :24:43.one on Thursday night. We will bring you the live coverage of the result

:24:44. > :24:51.from the tooting by-election. That's it from today. Remember, if it is

:24:52. > :25:34.Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics. I work for the Serious Fraud Office.

:25:35. > :25:40.Is that why you were there? What do you think this is,

:25:41. > :25:50.some kind of conspiracy? ..or watch all of Case One

:25:51. > :25:54.on BBC iPlayer now.