:00:44. > :00:51.As campaigning restarts after the tragic death of the MP
:00:52. > :00:54.Jo Cox, we'll be looking at how the final days leading up
:00:55. > :00:56.to Thursday's EU referendum could have a crucial impact
:00:57. > :01:02.The polls suggest it's all still too close to call as voters
:01:03. > :01:05.across the country make their final decision on whether the UK
:01:06. > :01:07.is better off in or out, of the European Union.
:01:08. > :01:11.And we'll be letting both campaigns go head to head
:01:12. > :01:20.as they test the substance of each other's arguments.
:01:21. > :01:23.In London this week we are in the south London borough
:01:24. > :01:26.of Lambeth which is said in some recent polling to be one of the most
:01:27. > :01:37.All that to come, and as we enter the final lap before the vote
:01:38. > :01:39.which will shape the future of Britain, I'm joined by three
:01:40. > :01:42.journalists who are just as in the dark about the likely
:01:43. > :01:48.Janan Ganesh, Tom Newton Dunn and Janet Daley.
:01:49. > :01:56.So campaigning is slowly beginning again after the death of the Labour
:01:57. > :01:59.MP Jo Cox on Thursday, with events planed today by both
:02:00. > :02:02.the official Remain and Leave groups.
:02:03. > :02:05.And we've heard from big figures from either side on the
:02:06. > :02:11.Labour leader and Remain supporter Jeremy Corbyn and Leave campaigner
:02:12. > :02:13.and Conservative minister Michael Gove were both asked
:02:14. > :02:18.Is there any kind of upper limit to immigration
:02:19. > :02:23.I don't think you can have one while you have the free movement
:02:24. > :02:26.of labour and I think the free movement of labour means that
:02:27. > :02:28.you have to balance the economy so you have to improve living
:02:29. > :02:35.And so that means the European Union's appalling treatment
:02:36. > :02:38.of Greece, particularly the European Central Bank
:02:39. > :02:42.as well as the European Union, that is a problem.
:02:43. > :02:45.So if you actually deliberately lower living standards and increase
:02:46. > :02:48.poverty in certain countries in south-east or eastern Europe
:02:49. > :02:51.then you are bound to have a flow of people looking for somewhere
:02:52. > :02:56.Surely the issue is an anti-austerity, a growth package
:02:57. > :03:01.When I've had the opportunity to talk about migration
:03:02. > :03:04.during the course of this debate, I hope I have been very clear.
:03:05. > :03:10.I am pro-migration but I believe that the way in which we secure
:03:11. > :03:12.public support for the continued benefits that migration brings
:03:13. > :03:15.and the way in which we secure public support for helping refugees
:03:16. > :03:18.in need is if people feel that they can control the numbers
:03:19. > :03:22.In Canada and Australia, two countries I very much admire,
:03:23. > :03:25.they have control and therefore they are able both to welcome
:03:26. > :03:37.Both sides talking about immigration. Mr Corbyn saying no
:03:38. > :03:43.upper limit as long as we have free movement in the EU. That is honest
:03:44. > :03:49.but will not be welcome perhaps by the Remain campaign. Not in the
:03:50. > :03:54.slightest. The Leave campaign sleeper agent strikes against! It
:03:55. > :03:59.was Alex Gregory thing to say and you can imagine Jeremy Corbyn being
:04:00. > :04:05.piled full briefing notes before, saying whatever you do, don't talk
:04:06. > :04:11.about people coming in their droves -- an extraordinary thing to say. He
:04:12. > :04:15.threw that all in the bin and told it truthfully, as he saw it. It may
:04:16. > :04:22.be the thing that precipitate a leadership challenge on him after
:04:23. > :04:28.the referendum. Much talk of that but no evidence. What did you make
:04:29. > :04:34.of it? I picked was a phenomenal performance for a covert agent for
:04:35. > :04:39.the opposite side, not such a good performance for a sincere... It was
:04:40. > :04:43.honest. It was candid but there is still an element of the country
:04:44. > :04:47.which is pro-Remain in the most grudging way possible and his
:04:48. > :04:50.approach might resonate a bit more with the more enthusiastic approach
:04:51. > :04:56.from George Osborne or David Cameron. The most telling thing this
:04:57. > :04:59.morning is when Nigel Farage was pressed on his controversial poster
:05:00. > :05:03.on migration a few days ago and his response was to say that the
:05:04. > :05:08.mainstream Leave campaign have come up with some pretty fruity posters
:05:09. > :05:13.of their own on that subject. I think the beginnings of a split
:05:14. > :05:16.between those sides of the Leave campaign, on the tone of how you
:05:17. > :05:21.deal with the issue of migration, might open up even in the last few
:05:22. > :05:26.days. Is there a difference to the tone of the campaign even when
:05:27. > :05:33.talking about immigration? Or is it back to business as usual? The
:05:34. > :05:39.substance of the argument remains the same Ulster Jeremy Corbyn put
:05:40. > :05:47.his finger in the league right on it. As a consequence of the hideous
:05:48. > :05:53.events of the last couple of days if that is a tendency to imply that
:05:54. > :05:57.anybody associated with the Leave campaign, anybody who expresses
:05:58. > :06:04.concerns about the numbers of immigrants, the flow of migration,
:06:05. > :06:08.is somehow a right-wing extremist, a fascist who is, by implication,
:06:09. > :06:13.associated with this crime. Jeremy Corbyn didn't do that. I am saying
:06:14. > :06:17.there is a tone in the media coverage that implies guilt by
:06:18. > :06:20.association with anybody who expresses concern about migration
:06:21. > :06:28.and that is very dangerous because the surest way to drive people into
:06:29. > :06:31.extraparliamentary opposition and dissidents is to make it clear that
:06:32. > :06:38.no respectable politician will pick up their concerns. Did you agree
:06:39. > :06:44.with Nigel Farage? Of course not. Nothing is wrong with pointing it
:06:45. > :06:52.out. George Osborne has poured petrol on the plane is talking about
:06:53. > :06:58.the echoes of 1930s. -- the flames. That is absurd. Your point about a
:06:59. > :07:03.split in the Leave campaign, there have been a split from the off.
:07:04. > :07:12.Right from the beginning. There is a difference in tone between... I was
:07:13. > :07:18.going to say, the story last week was of a widening gap with Remain in
:07:19. > :07:22.the lead that was the opinion polls, sorry, with Leave in the lead. If
:07:23. > :07:27.you were on the Remain site, would you not take comfort from the polls
:07:28. > :07:31.today? Especially from the fact that, according to YouGov, the mood
:07:32. > :07:35.in the polls predate the killing of Jo Cox so you could conclusion there
:07:36. > :07:43.is a structural reversion to continue to which often occurs
:07:44. > :07:46.before big elections. -- continuity. But it does not help that you have
:07:47. > :07:53.the lead of the opposition getting into a conversation about free
:07:54. > :07:57.movement. One of the biggest poll findings, the number of people who
:07:58. > :08:00.feel they would lose out material from Brexit has gone up from 23 233%
:08:01. > :08:04.and that is how win. Plenty of opinion polls
:08:05. > :08:06.in this morning's papers, as you'd expect in the last weekend
:08:07. > :08:08.before the vote. There will be more to
:08:09. > :08:10.come in the days ahead. Of course, polls are not quite
:08:11. > :08:13.the holy grail these days, especially after their failure
:08:14. > :08:15.to get the result right And the pollsters find referendums
:08:16. > :08:19.even trickier than other votes. But imperfect as they may be,
:08:20. > :08:22.they're what we've got and they ve told an interesting story
:08:23. > :08:24.throughout the campaign. Polls conducted by phone like this
:08:25. > :08:29.one back in May by Ipsos Mori have consistently put Remain ahead -
:08:30. > :08:31.here with an 18-point lead, But signs things were changing
:08:32. > :08:38.emerged at the end of last month, as one phone poll showed
:08:39. > :08:41.Leave three points ahead. And just this Thursday the latest
:08:42. > :08:45.Ipsos Mori survey caused a bit of a stir when it showed Leave
:08:46. > :08:48.with a six-point lead. But those carried out online have
:08:49. > :08:54.shown a different story, with the two sides level pegging
:08:55. > :08:58.or with Leave ahead. Back in May before the 'purdah'
:08:59. > :09:02.period which stopped the government taking part in the campaign,
:09:03. > :09:04.one internet poll gave Almost a month later,
:09:05. > :09:09.another online poll, this one by ICM, had
:09:10. > :09:14.Leave five points ahead. But this YouGov survey is one
:09:15. > :09:18.of four polls released overnight, suggesting both sides are neck
:09:19. > :09:20.and neck, suggesting the result So that's the story told
:09:21. > :09:27.by the polls in the months leading up to the referendum,
:09:28. > :09:30.and just so you have the full YouGov for the Sunday Times puts
:09:31. > :09:36.Remain on 44%, one point Another YouGov poll
:09:37. > :09:42.for Good Morning Britain gives Opinium for the Observer has Leave
:09:43. > :09:48.and Remain level pegging on 44% And Survation for the Mail
:09:49. > :09:51.on Sunday, the only telephone poll today, has Remain
:09:52. > :10:01.on 45% and Leave on 42%. Well, there's only one man we can
:10:02. > :10:05.turn to explain what it all means - I speak of course of elections
:10:06. > :10:18.expert John Curtice, Four new polls out this morning
:10:19. > :10:22.What do they tell us? They certainly provide a degree of relief for David
:10:23. > :10:26.Cameron and the remaining macro side after some dire polls last week
:10:27. > :10:33.which almost unanimously suggested a sharp drop in support for Remain.
:10:34. > :10:38.But it is perhaps an indication of just how tight this referendum has
:10:39. > :10:43.become that three Internet polls between suggested it was 50-50 and
:10:44. > :10:48.one telephone pole, which although it puts Remain back in the lead it
:10:49. > :10:52.makes the lead much narrower that in any previous point in the campaign.
:10:53. > :10:56.The fact that that is regarded as good news for them is an indication
:10:57. > :11:02.of how much trouble they had got into seemingly. I think these polls
:11:03. > :11:09.were taken at a time when it was too early, tell me if I'm wrong, to see
:11:10. > :11:16.if the appalling tragedy of Jo Cox has had any impact on the campaign.
:11:17. > :11:21.I think that is correct. The telephone poll was done entirely
:11:22. > :11:26.afterwards, one of the YouGov polls was done mostly afterwards. They are
:11:27. > :11:29.saying that the poll they did just before was already showing Remain
:11:30. > :11:35.increasing and the one after shows that continuing further. Given that
:11:36. > :11:38.there was a widespread expectation that perhaps Remain would start to
:11:39. > :11:44.regain ground as people considered the possible risks of voting for
:11:45. > :11:48.Leave, maybe this process had already kicked in and that is
:11:49. > :11:53.explaining something of a movement back towards Remain, and it may not
:11:54. > :11:57.necessarily have anything to do with the tragic murder of Jo Cox. There
:11:58. > :12:05.is nothing in these polls to be able to pin it definitively on that
:12:06. > :12:11.particular event. It is often said in referenda that there can be a
:12:12. > :12:15.reversion to the status quo on the final day and that would be to vote
:12:16. > :12:23.to remain. Is there any sign of that? And what can you tell us about
:12:24. > :12:27.the undecideds? I saw some of the polling suggesting that those who
:12:28. > :12:33.were undecided, if they vote, they are more likely to vote to remain
:12:34. > :12:37.than to come out. Your first point, it is precisely whether that process
:12:38. > :12:41.are people reverting back to the status quo is already kicking in and
:12:42. > :12:45.this explains why the polls this weekend are somewhat better than
:12:46. > :12:50.those in the week. And I think what it does seem to be the case, we are
:12:51. > :12:57.asking is that movement to leave was a stone that was gathering more moss
:12:58. > :13:01.and would continue this weekend and that clearly hadn't happened. Remain
:13:02. > :13:09.may hope that people reverting back to the status quo might happen, that
:13:10. > :13:15.is the first point. The second was about the significance of the
:13:16. > :13:18.undecideds. The number of them going down and the people who have made up
:13:19. > :13:24.their mind is going up but you are right that most polls find that the
:13:25. > :13:28.people who don't know are most likely to vote first of all and the
:13:29. > :13:34.second thing they are likely to do is to vote for Remain. And many of
:13:35. > :13:38.the opinion polls published now are already including into their
:13:39. > :13:42.headline tallies the reported votes of those who initially said they
:13:43. > :13:48.were undecided but are asked a follow up squeeze question. We
:13:49. > :13:51.should not say there is more ground to be made for Remain from that
:13:52. > :13:53.particular phenomenon. Thank you. Only a few days to go,
:13:54. > :13:56.so how will the campaigns try to win over undecided voters in the short
:13:57. > :14:00.time they have remaining? Well, we're joined now from Somerset
:14:01. > :14:03.by the former Lib Dem And here in the studio by the Labour
:14:04. > :14:20.MP and Leave campaigner, Paddy Ashdown, do you get a sense
:14:21. > :14:25.this weekend, if I can put it this way, that the Remain campaign is
:14:26. > :14:30.back on track? Andrew Neil, you really want to bring me on straight
:14:31. > :14:38.after John Curtis, my nemesis, and ask me to disagree with him! The
:14:39. > :14:41.last time I had to eat my hat.. I disagreed with John twice on the
:14:42. > :14:45.poll now and I have been wrong on every occasion and I'm delighted to
:14:46. > :14:51.make my apologies to him on your programme. I don't know all the I
:14:52. > :14:55.think what you're talking about with John about the undecided voters
:14:56. > :15:03.maybe keep to this, if they vote or not, and if they do, will they vote
:15:04. > :15:08.in favour of remaining as people predict. I don't think any of us
:15:09. > :15:15.know. It is all within a margin of error, it is all to play for and it
:15:16. > :15:19.looks to me, extremely tight. Perhaps a small shift in favour of
:15:20. > :15:23.remaining macro but too small to be certain about it.
:15:24. > :15:31.We got some austere stories about the economy from the Chancellor this
:15:32. > :15:34.morning on ITV. In the final three days, starting tomorrow, three more
:15:35. > :15:41.days of campaigning to go, is that the right way to go, or would you
:15:42. > :15:46.advise the Remain campaign to start putting out a more positive message
:15:47. > :15:50.about remaining in the EU? They are following a playbook they have
:15:51. > :15:55.followed before. I'm not involved with the Remain campaign. My advice
:15:56. > :15:59.to voters, when it comes to predictions on the economy, do not
:16:00. > :16:04.listen to either side, listen to the independent voices whose job it is,
:16:05. > :16:08.paid by all the nations on earth, to make judgments about the economic
:16:09. > :16:14.consequences of our political actions. They have been wrong
:16:15. > :16:18.before, but I'll be all wrong? Are only Mr Johnson and Mr Farage red?
:16:19. > :16:23.People need to realise they are betting their jobs and the national
:16:24. > :16:28.economy on this. Nothing is certain, but when you make the judgment, you
:16:29. > :16:32.probably want to wear on your mind, not George Osborne's comments, or
:16:33. > :16:37.Boris Johnson's from the other side, they will put the point as they want
:16:38. > :16:42.to, but those independent voices, every single one of them, without
:16:43. > :16:48.exception, who are independent of the campaign, the global experts on
:16:49. > :16:54.this. This is not a conspiracy, it is a consensus, all of them say it
:16:55. > :16:58.will seriously damage our economy. For most people, worried about their
:16:59. > :17:07.jobs, that will be a more powerful factor in making your decision. More
:17:08. > :17:12.powerful than the words of the opposition parties. Some in Remain
:17:13. > :17:15.may not regard it as helpful, but Jeremy Corbyn told the BBC this
:17:16. > :17:22.morning that with free movement within the EU, you can have no upper
:17:23. > :17:28.limit on immigration. That was accurate and honest, wasn't it? One
:17:29. > :17:33.thing you can be sure of, if we leave the European Union, you will
:17:34. > :17:37.control immigration, but not anyway that the out campaigners claim. You
:17:38. > :17:43.will trash the economy, far fewer jobs and no one will want to come
:17:44. > :17:47.here. Your language is interesting. We will trash the economy, not that
:17:48. > :17:56.we will not grow as fast, not that it will be better to stay in than
:17:57. > :17:59.I'd, but we will trash the economy? Find another word, if you wish. We
:18:00. > :18:07.are slowly recovering from recession. It has been massive pain
:18:08. > :18:11.to get out of the mess we were in. The international economy, all of
:18:12. > :18:15.those who comment, they say in big terms are small towns, the used
:18:16. > :18:20.strong words are relatively more moderated ones, the agree it will
:18:21. > :18:26.push us back into recession. You can use trash the economy or say we are
:18:27. > :18:30.going back into recession. Creating those jobs, making Britain one of
:18:31. > :18:36.the best economies in Europe, we would turn that around if we came
:18:37. > :18:39.out. The consequences will be for jobs and businesses, the tax
:18:40. > :18:44.revenues for the government that pays for our public services, it
:18:45. > :18:51.will be very serious. John Mann immigration has been a big part of
:18:52. > :18:56.the Leave campaign. Did the town get too hostile on immigration, did it
:18:57. > :19:01.get to a robust? Yes, and Nigel Farage's poster is the worst example
:19:02. > :19:06.of that. It would be better known if it had not been produced and he
:19:07. > :19:12.withdrew it. It is unhelpful and inaccurate, irrelevant to the real
:19:13. > :19:18.debate. So yes. What did you make of Jeremy Corbyn's remarks this morning
:19:19. > :19:22.on immigration? The issues in working-class communities remain.
:19:23. > :19:27.The issues are about pay, agency work, they are about people's hopes
:19:28. > :19:33.for the future. When you have zero our contracts, when the health
:19:34. > :19:36.services under pressure, and people see privatisation and cuts, the
:19:37. > :19:43.Labour agenda on Friday, whatever the result, it has to get into that.
:19:44. > :19:48.If it is a Leave vote, the first thing Labour could be doing was
:19:49. > :19:52.demanding a dash was demanding an immediate end of the procurement
:19:53. > :19:56.rules for public services. We could argue for an increase in public
:19:57. > :20:01.servers pay, to stop the impact of the European Court rulings and
:20:02. > :20:06.reinforcing agencies. It is agencies and the uncertainty in the labour
:20:07. > :20:11.market that is really behind the strain that appears to be in working
:20:12. > :20:16.-- the strength that appears to be in working-class communities for
:20:17. > :20:22.Kallis leave. There are only three days to go. Is the biggest issue
:20:23. > :20:27.immigration again? I hope not. I hope it is about hope and vision for
:20:28. > :20:30.what kind of country we want in the future, and how best in the modern
:20:31. > :20:35.technological age, where the computer has been invented, where we
:20:36. > :20:39.order things online, where big developments will get even faster,
:20:40. > :20:49.about how we deal with the whole of the world. I think that politicians,
:20:50. > :20:53.MPs, all of us, myself included we remain extremely shaken by the
:20:54. > :20:59.horrific murder of Jo Cox. I think there will be less campaigning, less
:21:00. > :21:03.than there was. However strong people's views, they do not want to
:21:04. > :21:08.be banging on doors at the current time. I think there will be less
:21:09. > :21:14.politicians out and about and there would have been. There seems to be
:21:15. > :21:17.of their weight behind Leave, last week, certainly, up until the
:21:18. > :21:22.terrible events on Thursday. Do you get a sense that it could be
:21:23. > :21:25.slipping away from you this weekend? From the polls last time, I would
:21:26. > :21:31.have expected them to bounce back little bit. It will depend on
:21:32. > :21:34.turnout. If there is a disproportionately high turnout in
:21:35. > :21:42.the areas that do not normally vote, it will end up with a Leave vote. If
:21:43. > :21:46.it is lower, it will be Remain. Turnout will decide. It is not
:21:47. > :21:50.predictable. I hope the vast majority of people are voting and
:21:51. > :21:57.whatever the result, we need to get together as a country, and get
:21:58. > :22:03.behind that result. Paddy Ashdown... Would you allow me. It is a really
:22:04. > :22:07.important statement that John Mann has made. I admire him very much and
:22:08. > :22:13.I know he is just as interested in the future of this country as I am.
:22:14. > :22:18.If it is the case that the terrible death of Jo Cox, who I campaigned
:22:19. > :22:23.with on the issues of refugees and two I had massive admiration for, if
:22:24. > :22:27.that has led to a change in tone, that would be welcome. The way that
:22:28. > :22:32.John put his case and the way he moved away from the Nigel Farage
:22:33. > :22:36.poster, which I find distasteful, if that is the tone of this campaign, I
:22:37. > :22:41.do not think it will massively alter the result, but that last we will
:22:42. > :22:46.have a campaign we can be proud of, one that I have felt so far
:22:47. > :22:50.extremely ashamed about. High octane insults from both sides. Some of
:22:51. > :22:55.that is because it is an internal civil war in the Tory party, and
:22:56. > :23:02.they are always the worst. I was at the Oval the other day, and the man
:23:03. > :23:06.came up to the In campaign and said they should be executed. If we can
:23:07. > :23:11.get away from that, lower the tone and follow the approach John Mann is
:23:12. > :23:15.suggesting, we will have a good debate, honoured democracy, and it's
:23:16. > :23:19.essential qualities of tolerance and respect for others, rather than the
:23:20. > :23:23.kind of thing we have had in recent weeks. Will the final three days of
:23:24. > :23:30.the campaign be that different in tone? I think they will be.
:23:31. > :23:37.Certainly members of Parliament will be careful on the language used I
:23:38. > :23:42.hope on the Leave site, everyone will distance themselves from Nigel
:23:43. > :23:47.Farage's poster and what lay behind that. I hope that on the Remain
:23:48. > :23:53.side, people Walsh move away from the exaggerations that have taken
:23:54. > :24:00.place. -- people will move. Paddy Ashdown. I agree with that as well.
:24:01. > :24:05.We have dealt in hyperbole. The public does not trust either side.
:24:06. > :24:10.If we can change that now, if we can come back to a statement of the
:24:11. > :24:16.facts, maybe relying on independent opinions, I think the last few days
:24:17. > :24:21.of the campaign will honour us. In the interests of our anti-hyperbole
:24:22. > :24:25.Drive, can both Remain and Leave agree that when the French economic
:24:26. > :24:30.minister says that if we vote to leave, we will be no more important
:24:31. > :24:35.than Guernsey, we can file that under hyperbole? Yes, you can. You
:24:36. > :24:41.may be able to file it under trash. Thank you. Thank you, John Mann we
:24:42. > :24:47.can file that under hyperbole? Yes, we can.
:24:48. > :24:49.Now, over the past two weeks we ve been letting the politicians
:24:50. > :24:52.from either side of this referendum debate interrogate each other over
:24:53. > :24:54.what they feel are the really big issues at stake.
:24:55. > :24:57.Today, in the last of the series for now, we've invited
:24:58. > :24:59.the Green Party MP and Remain campaigner Caroline Lucas
:25:00. > :25:01.to question the Conservative minister and Leave campaigner
:25:02. > :25:07.A little earlier, we tossed a coin to see who would go first.
:25:08. > :25:10.Dominic was the winner, and he chose to answer
:25:11. > :25:19.So, before we get started, let's have a listen to Domnic Raab
:25:20. > :25:26.making the case for why undecided voters should vote to leave.
:25:27. > :25:30.I am confident in you, the British people, and I am also
:25:31. > :25:33.convinced with my head and my heart that we can only reach our full
:25:34. > :25:40.Take some of the positives of leaving the EU, our small
:25:41. > :25:43.businesses would be freed up from straitjacket regulation.
:25:44. > :25:46.That is important for us because small businesses in this
:25:47. > :25:51.We would be freed up to trade more energetically with the growth
:25:52. > :25:54.markets of the future, from Asia to Latin America,
:25:55. > :26:01.which will cut prices in the shops, and we will take back full control
:26:02. > :26:04.over the money we give the EU, and our gross contribution is now
:26:05. > :26:06.?350 million every week and certain to rise.
:26:07. > :26:09.When it comes to immigration it can bring huge benefits,
:26:10. > :26:10.but only if it is properly controlled.
:26:11. > :26:14.Uncontrolled immigration from the EU has put pressure on jobs and wages,
:26:15. > :26:15.and a massive strain on infrastructure,
:26:16. > :26:22.The truth is, we cannot properly control immigration
:26:23. > :26:25.There is something bigger in this debate, something
:26:26. > :26:30.I want us to be masters of our own destiny.
:26:31. > :26:33.I want it as a citizen, as a father, and I want it
:26:34. > :26:39.With the majority of laws now made in Brussels by politicians
:26:40. > :26:41.and bureaucrats not elected by or accountable to you,
:26:42. > :26:44.we can only truly be masters of our own destiny if we vote
:26:45. > :26:50.to leave the EU on 23rd June and take back democratic control.
:26:51. > :26:52.And here are Caroline Lucas and Dominic Raab.
:26:53. > :27:00.And just to explain the rules, Caroline has just five minutes
:27:01. > :27:04.She can only ask questions, and he can only give answers.
:27:05. > :27:15.Thank you. Dominik, how much is Britain's net weekly contribution to
:27:16. > :27:19.the EU? Weekly? The grosses 350 million and the net contribution is
:27:20. > :27:24.around half of that. You will know that on this leaflet it says, let's
:27:25. > :27:29.give NHS the 350 million the EU takes every week. Is that not
:27:30. > :27:33.misleading because it is not the real figure? After was four months
:27:34. > :27:36.of campaigning, people have understood there is a difference
:27:37. > :27:40.between the gross contribution, and that includes some of the things
:27:41. > :27:44.that the EU spends in this country on our behalf, without is being able
:27:45. > :27:50.to prioritise, as well as the amount we give and do not see back. We want
:27:51. > :27:55.the money back that the EU spends on itself. Do you accept this as a
:27:56. > :28:00.wrong figure? We want control over the money we put in. It is the gross
:28:01. > :28:05.contribution, I have made that clear. We never send the men from
:28:06. > :28:11.the rebate, so we cannot possibly be spending that again on the NHS. Why
:28:12. > :28:14.should anyone believe your side on the NHS, given that also some of the
:28:15. > :28:19.key vote leave campaigners are people who want to privatise the
:28:20. > :28:24.NHS? We have a wide range of politicians involved. We have heard
:28:25. > :28:29.from John Mann. You're some of the most left-wing unions like our side.
:28:30. > :28:34.In relation to what we said about the NHS, we would take 100 million
:28:35. > :28:38.each week from the net contribution. That is the allocation that would be
:28:39. > :28:42.made. When you get your salary from the House of Commons you get a gross
:28:43. > :28:50.figure. There is a difference between that and your take-home pay.
:28:51. > :28:52.There is no difference here. That is a misleading figure. I want to come
:28:53. > :28:57.onto another poster. This is another one you will be familiar with. The
:28:58. > :29:04.Leave side are sending at around the country. It says that Turkey I
:29:05. > :29:09.leaving the EU. On a scale of one to ten, how would you rate the
:29:10. > :29:16.suggestion that Turkey is close to becoming a EU member? I think it is
:29:17. > :29:22.right. Turkey is in the process of joining. British taxpayers are
:29:23. > :29:27.already paying ?1.8 billion between 2014 and 2022 pave the way. We have
:29:28. > :29:32.had politicians from Tony Blair to David Cameron making it clear that
:29:33. > :29:38.the UK wants Turkey to join the EU. The UK has a veto, doesn't it? It
:29:39. > :29:44.cannot possibly join in the UK uses that? It is a theoretical veto. It
:29:45. > :29:50.is real. Can you imagine Cyprus not using its veto? From Tony Blair to
:29:51. > :29:56.David Cameron, the consensus in this country is that Turkey should join
:29:57. > :29:59.the EU. Our diplomats are working on measures to expedite that happening.
:30:00. > :30:05.You have got to take into account the impact that would have. How many
:30:06. > :30:09.of the 35 chapters or areas of compliance that Turkey would have to
:30:10. > :30:12.fulfil before it could join, how many of those have been fulfilled in
:30:13. > :30:20.the last 30 years they have been trying to join? Not many. It is one.
:30:21. > :30:27.That is why it is worrying that in Whitehall and in Brussels they are
:30:28. > :30:30.expediting Turkish membership. I was in the Foreign Office when the eight
:30:31. > :30:34.countries from Central and eastern Europe were playing and in many of
:30:35. > :30:38.those cases those criteria were ignored because the political will
:30:39. > :30:42.was there and that is what we have now. Would you accept that this
:30:43. > :30:45.leaflet is misleading because it sounds like it is going to happen
:30:46. > :30:53.soon and it clearly isn't and Britain has a veto? Turkish
:30:54. > :30:57.membership of the EU is a question of when and not if and in that case
:30:58. > :31:01.it is right. Do you think is contributing to an atmosphere of
:31:02. > :31:05.fear and hatred? The responsible thing is to talk about immigration
:31:06. > :31:09.in a sensitive way and if you ignore it and you don't talk about the
:31:10. > :31:14.costs of immigration, you're going to get far more fringe extremist
:31:15. > :31:21.politics. That's not airbrush it out of the debate. I want to ask you,
:31:22. > :31:26.key campaigners on the Leave side like Nigel Lawson and Nigel Farage
:31:27. > :31:31.are at best climate sceptics is not climate deniers do you agree with
:31:32. > :31:36.them? I'm not a climate sceptic at all. You were pleased to see the
:31:37. > :31:40.agreement in Paris? Did the EU play a good role? The problem we have is
:31:41. > :31:44.that 10% of CO2 emissions come from the EU and 90% from the rest of the
:31:45. > :31:48.world so we need a global 08 regional approach. When I dealt with
:31:49. > :31:52.a lot of global institutions, the problem is the EU is so inward
:31:53. > :31:56.looking, we lose sight of the big picture and it is global not
:31:57. > :32:01.regional. The EU played a key role in Paris in terms of ratcheting up
:32:02. > :32:04.the ambition, yes or no? I don't think the ambition was particularly
:32:05. > :32:06.high if you look at the Regent of the world outside the EU. We will
:32:07. > :32:09.leave it there. -- the regions. Now it's the turn of Caroline
:32:10. > :32:11.to be cross-examined. First, let's have a look
:32:12. > :32:14.at her pitch to undecided voters, arguing the case
:32:15. > :32:20.for a vote to remain. They are in their early 20s now
:32:21. > :32:24.and this referendum goes to the heart of the kind of future
:32:25. > :32:27.I want for them, that all of us want for our young
:32:28. > :32:30.people and for Britain. Yet there is a risk that the outcome
:32:31. > :32:33.will be decided by older generations if young people do not get
:32:34. > :32:35.out and vote. The EU can help us build a safer,
:32:36. > :32:38.better future, because the biggest challenges we face today
:32:39. > :32:40.are by their very nature international, and are best tackled
:32:41. > :32:43.by working hand-in-hand with our neighbours,
:32:44. > :32:45.challenges like climate change, the refugee crisis, cross-border
:32:46. > :32:50.crime and terrorism. The EU has been a force for good,
:32:51. > :32:54.from guaranteeing workers' rights to protecting our shared environment
:32:55. > :32:57.and helping to create jobs in every To turn our backs on this would be
:32:58. > :33:03.to turn our backs on a safer, greener, more prosperous
:33:04. > :33:04.and peaceful future. This referendum will define
:33:05. > :33:07.what kind of country our children Do we want to be an isolated,
:33:08. > :33:15.inward-looking country that cares only about what it can get out
:33:16. > :33:19.of the rest of the world, or do we want to be a generous,
:33:20. > :33:22.confident and outward-looking country that wants to be able
:33:23. > :33:25.to play its part in making Let's not take our
:33:26. > :33:28.country backwards. I taught my children that the right
:33:29. > :33:32.thing to do when confronted with a challenge is to stand tall
:33:33. > :33:35.and find a solution, That is why I am voting to remain
:33:36. > :33:40.on June 23rd and I am So, as before, Dominic,
:33:41. > :33:46.you have six minutes to question Caroline,
:33:47. > :33:58.off you go. The organisation which is trying to
:33:59. > :34:03.independently verify facts for the public estimate that around 50 to
:34:04. > :34:07.60% of UK law that are now made in Brussels. How high would that
:34:08. > :34:11.percentage have to be for you to be in favour of leaving the EU? It
:34:12. > :34:15.depends why those rules are being made in Brussels. They are being
:34:16. > :34:18.made because getting single market and we want to make sure there are
:34:19. > :34:22.strong social and environmental standards, I'm delighted that they
:34:23. > :34:25.are being made in Brussels, they should be come they are there
:34:26. > :34:29.because we want to make sure cross-border problems like air
:34:30. > :34:32.pollution are controlled because we have the ability to work
:34:33. > :34:38.cross-border in the EU, absolutely it should be there. Looking at bold
:34:39. > :34:43.figures does not help us. If 10 % of the laws were made in Brussels,
:34:44. > :34:46.fined by you? It's a bit ridiculous to think that not a single domestic
:34:47. > :34:53.law would be made in Britain. Things like housing and defence and some
:34:54. > :34:57.issues are still decided at UK level. Where would you draw the
:34:58. > :35:00.line? I'm trying to get a sense of when you think the tipping point
:35:01. > :35:05.arrives when we have lost so much of our democracy. I would challenge the
:35:06. > :35:09.premise of your question because the idea that the EU is fundamentally
:35:10. > :35:13.more undemocratic than with Minster is wrong. The government that you
:35:14. > :35:17.represent was elected with just 24% of the eligible vote, we have an
:35:18. > :35:21.unelected House of Lords, at least in the European institutions we have
:35:22. > :35:24.a parliament are through proportional representation and the
:35:25. > :35:27.Council of ministers which means that if a democratic oversight of
:35:28. > :35:34.the rules coming from Brussels. When the people watching the show get to
:35:35. > :35:37.hold to account the 27th of heads of government in the European Council,
:35:38. > :35:43.the 10th of thousands of bureaucrats and the 90% of MEPs not from
:35:44. > :35:48.Britain? -- tens of thousands. There are fewer people working for the
:35:49. > :35:52.interjections in Brussels than for Kent County Council for example --
:35:53. > :36:04.for the institutions. I would be the first to say that
:36:05. > :36:10.EU should be more democratic and accountable, I would like to see the
:36:11. > :36:14.European Parliament have more powers and the commission have fewer. To
:36:15. > :36:19.suggest that would be a reason for leaving the EU is just wrong, we
:36:20. > :36:23.need to be in there to fight it Net immigration from the EU was 184 000
:36:24. > :36:31.last year, that is the equivalent of a size city the size of Oxford. Do
:36:32. > :36:35.you think there should be any limit on the volume of immigration from
:36:36. > :36:40.the EU? Jeremy Corbyn said note this morning. I think it will be
:36:41. > :36:43.self-regulating to an extent because people are coming because the other
:36:44. > :36:48.fifth richest country in the world and there are jobs here. So we don't
:36:49. > :36:51.need a limit? To have an arbitrary limit would be ineffective and we
:36:52. > :36:55.have seen that from looking at your own promise to try to do by talking
:36:56. > :36:58.about bringing it down to tens of thousands. There is no way he can do
:36:59. > :37:03.that because there is more migration coming from outside the EU that
:37:04. > :37:08.inside anyway. Take Romania and Bulgaria, the average wage around ?3
:37:09. > :37:12.an hour, we have a minimum rate of ?7.20 an hour, eight strong pull
:37:13. > :37:18.factor which puts strains on the NHS and housing. If it up price worth
:37:19. > :37:21.paying for staying in? There are so many assumptions in your question.
:37:22. > :37:24.Most of the pressure on our housing and education and health system is
:37:25. > :37:28.coming from a lack of investment and cuts on the government, not from
:37:29. > :37:31.people coming in. In the NHS you are far more likely to be treated by
:37:32. > :37:35.someone who has come from another European country. There are some
:37:36. > :37:40.real challenges in there. I'm not saying that regression doesn't bring
:37:41. > :37:44.pressures but we should be recognising there is a net economic
:37:45. > :37:47.benefit that migrants bring with them so let's invest that properly
:37:48. > :37:52.in the services in the area. The latest report by the EU's
:37:53. > :37:56.anti-corruption body shows fraudulent abuse of EU funds at
:37:57. > :38:01.record levels, they have been criticised for not even implementing
:38:02. > :38:05.the first obligation under the UN's Convention against corruption. Under
:38:06. > :38:08.our aid policy, we would not give a penny of taxpayers money to a poor
:38:09. > :38:13.African country that would not comply with UN standards but we give
:38:14. > :38:16.billions to the EU. Are you comfortable with that? I'm not
:38:17. > :38:20.comfortable with corruption or fraud but I don't think the EU has a
:38:21. > :38:23.monopoly on that and many times the accounts have not been able to be
:38:24. > :38:26.signed up because individual nation states have not done their job
:38:27. > :38:33.properly, it is government at fault, not the EU. In your election
:38:34. > :38:38.manifesto you referred to the EU's unsustainable economic 's. Do you
:38:39. > :38:42.still hold that view? I think it is unsustainable whether at EU level or
:38:43. > :38:47.British level and the way to do that do that is to fight it in Britain
:38:48. > :38:48.and in the EU. Thank you to both of you.
:38:49. > :38:51.It's just gone 11.35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:38:52. > :38:53.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:38:54. > :38:58.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead, when we'll be
:38:59. > :39:02.talking about how the final week of this campaign could take shape.
:39:03. > :39:16.First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:39:17. > :39:23.We're going to be continuing the discussion you've been having
:39:24. > :39:25.about the impact of Jo Cox's death and considering which way
:39:26. > :39:29.the capital will go in the EU referendum.
:39:30. > :39:31.With me to do that, the Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan,
:39:32. > :39:35.supporter of the Remain case, and Theresa Villiers,
:39:36. > :39:38.Northern Ireland Secretary and Conservative MP
:39:39. > :39:40.for Chipping Barnet, who is campaigning to leave.
:39:41. > :39:52.Starting with the issue of security, both of you with high-profile jobs,
:39:53. > :40:00.what does this incident mean for you now? It is such a huge tragedy, it
:40:01. > :40:03.is just heartbreaking to think of two young children left without
:40:04. > :40:08.their mother. What I'm conscious of in the job I do where I often meet
:40:09. > :40:12.victims of attacks and murders and terrorism that took place many years
:40:13. > :40:17.ago, the pain for them can be just as intense many years on so my heart
:40:18. > :40:21.goes out to her family and I think all MPs will be reflecting on what
:40:22. > :40:25.more we can do to make sure we are as safe as possible, that we do
:40:26. > :40:29.everything we can to be secure but I don't think anybody will be pulling
:40:30. > :40:33.back. We will still be out and about in the community despite the fact it
:40:34. > :40:43.comes with risks. So there won't be a rush to new measures that cut MPs
:40:44. > :40:47.off or away from the public? I don't think so but it is important for us
:40:48. > :40:49.to reflect on what we can do individually to ensure that we are
:40:50. > :40:53.as secure as possible and I think also we are aware that, whilst we
:40:54. > :40:57.run risks, there are many other public servants like police officers
:40:58. > :41:02.and prison officers for whom risks are sadly even more significant
:41:03. > :41:05.Personally first, since being elected Mayor of London, had you had
:41:06. > :41:09.to review your own security arrangements? I'm not allowed to
:41:10. > :41:13.discuss it but there have been a lot of reviews and I'm quite clear that
:41:14. > :41:20.I want to use public transport, meat or American Londoners and be out and
:41:21. > :41:24.about as much as I can. -- I want to meet ordinary Londoners. It is part
:41:25. > :41:28.of being a public servant to be accessible, it keeps you anchored
:41:29. > :41:34.and you are in touch with voters and it is important. What none of us
:41:35. > :41:40.want is for that to change as a consequence of Jo's tragic death. Do
:41:41. > :41:46.you think it will not change? Risk assessment are done all the time.
:41:47. > :41:52.What is important is that it is done on a case-by-case basis. You don't
:41:53. > :41:57.throw the baby out with the bath water. One of the things that keeps
:41:58. > :42:00.us anchored is that we speak to our constituents, to Londoners and other
:42:01. > :42:06.people, they can approach us and that is important. Some have already
:42:07. > :42:11.raised the issue about whether the police were in the process of
:42:12. > :42:15.reviewing security for MPs. In your role and the close connection you
:42:16. > :42:20.have with the Metropolitan Police, had you had discussions with the
:42:21. > :42:24.commissioner, Bernard Hogan-Howe, about any further action is needed
:42:25. > :42:28.to make MPs safer? My understanding is that the police are speaking to
:42:29. > :42:33.all MPs to make sure there is a risk assessment undertaken but it is not
:42:34. > :42:39.just us, it is our staff as well. It is important they are safe and we
:42:40. > :42:42.have a duty of care to them when it comes to surgeries and deterring bad
:42:43. > :42:48.people doing bad things and making sure our staff feel safe to work for
:42:49. > :42:52.a politician. Have you spoken to the Commissioner about this specific
:42:53. > :42:57.issue? We have been in touch since Jo's death. Is there anything they
:42:58. > :43:03.are doing directly as a result? They are doing a lot of things, but you
:43:04. > :43:08.will appreciate at this stage things are pretty fluid and I would not
:43:09. > :43:14.want to inadvertently reveal stuff before discussing it with MPs. But
:43:15. > :43:17.it is better assume that MPs are having conversations with police
:43:18. > :43:22.officers? Absolutely and they don't need to wait for the police to
:43:23. > :43:25.contact them, they should speak to the police and the Palace authority
:43:26. > :43:31.to make sure they feel safe in order to do their duty but also their
:43:32. > :43:35.staff and family as well. And a question of tone, is there too much
:43:36. > :43:42.hatred in the public discourse of late? I think it is a concern that,
:43:43. > :43:48.particularly on social media, people use the cloak of anonymity to say
:43:49. > :43:53.really poisonous and unpleasant and aggressive things about political
:43:54. > :43:58.figures. I think this is a reminder that the vast majority of people who
:43:59. > :44:02.go into public office do so for the rest of motives. People fully
:44:03. > :44:06.acknowledge that in the case of Jo Cox. She believed in what she was
:44:07. > :44:11.doing, she was doing it for the good of society and the vast majority of
:44:12. > :44:16.MPs do it for the same reason. Is there too much hatred? People have
:44:17. > :44:20.to make argument robustly. The vast majority of the public are decent
:44:21. > :44:25.and law-abiding and lovely. We must be tested, it is right to hold us to
:44:26. > :44:30.account, we love to debate, dare I say argue but the tone is important
:44:31. > :44:32.and I am concerned that in the recent weeks and months the tone is
:44:33. > :44:37.one where it encourages an environment of hatred. It is a
:44:38. > :44:42.poisonous atmosphere and if that could lead to people being
:44:43. > :44:49.encouraged or incited to behave in a hateful way. Turning to Europe, we
:44:50. > :44:53.will come onto the detail in a moment, but what clinches it for the
:44:54. > :44:58.Remain site in the coming days? I am a firm believer at looking at the
:44:59. > :45:03.evidence and the expert advice and as far as I'm concerned in the next
:45:04. > :45:08.few days, my job and those of us who want us to remain in the EU is to
:45:09. > :45:13.remind voters of the evidence and what the experts say. Remaining
:45:14. > :45:15.means jobs, trade, investment, lower prices. Leaving the lead in the
:45:16. > :45:25.dark. Democracy is at the heart of this.
:45:26. > :45:29.As a member of the EU, whoever you vote for at the general election,
:45:30. > :45:34.there are many things you cannot change. By far the safer option is
:45:35. > :45:41.to take that democratic control back over making laws in a run country.
:45:42. > :45:43.-- in our own country. Last week, we reported
:45:44. > :45:47.from Havering, on the outskirts of the capital, reputed to be one
:45:48. > :45:49.of the most Eurosceptic This week, we've gone to Lambeth,
:45:50. > :45:53.where the instinct to remain Andrew Cryan is in Brixton
:45:54. > :45:59.with more details. Yes, that is right. This comes down
:46:00. > :46:05.to a piece of research by the polling company YouGov. They asked
:46:06. > :46:09.80,000 people around the country, I really big number, their views on
:46:10. > :46:13.the European Union. They find that the strongest views for out were in
:46:14. > :46:19.the London Borough of Havering. We were there at that's -- we were
:46:20. > :46:27.there last week. This week we are at the other end of the skill, in
:46:28. > :46:31.Lambeth, I'd side the Ritzy Cinema. They won to leave more than any
:46:32. > :46:44.other place in England. We have been asking quite? -- they want to leave.
:46:45. > :46:47.For the last few weeks, the polls have been sailing this way and that.
:46:48. > :46:49.But there has been one near constant.
:46:50. > :46:51.Whatever the headline national figure, London shows up as wanting
:46:52. > :46:55.If the polls are to be believed that supporter is particularly
:46:56. > :46:57.concentrated in a certain type of London borough,
:46:58. > :46:59.which is near the middle of the city, relatively
:47:00. > :47:03.Places like Camden, Islington, Hackney, Southwark and so on.
:47:04. > :47:05.According to one bit of research, there is one London borough
:47:06. > :47:07.which is more pro-Remain than anywhere else in England
:47:08. > :47:11.In the heart of the borough is Brixton, sometimes said to be
:47:12. > :47:18.the symbolic centre of black Britain.
:47:19. > :47:19.When Nelson Mandela and Muhammad Ali visited,
:47:20. > :47:48.So, in 2016, will it also become the beating heart
:47:49. > :47:52.I have been walking around Brixton market for about an hour.
:47:53. > :47:56.We have met a couple of ins, a couple of outs, a lot of people
:47:57. > :47:58.who did not want to be filmed, somebody who did not know
:47:59. > :48:01.there was a referendum on, somebody who did not vote,
:48:02. > :48:02.somebody who did not understand the question.
:48:03. > :48:05.It is pretty fair to say that election fever is yet
:48:06. > :48:14.Are you swayed by the arguments on either side?
:48:15. > :48:16.I do not listen to anything, to be honest.
:48:17. > :48:22.If this really is the Remain camp's heartland, it could be in trouble.
:48:23. > :48:24.But luckily for inners, a 50 minute drive up the road
:48:25. > :48:26.in Kennington, we met up with campaigners having
:48:27. > :48:29.On the tube just now, two people approached me,
:48:30. > :48:33.That was coming down and nobody normally talks to each other
:48:34. > :48:36.on the tube so that is quite something in London.
:48:37. > :48:41.We have been campaigning every day in this area.
:48:42. > :48:44.We feel incredibly strongly to put out the Labour Party message that
:48:45. > :48:45.Labour believes Britain is stronger in Europe.
:48:46. > :48:48.We have done this so many times we have run out of leaflets.
:48:49. > :48:53.We just spotted these guys on the way to our latest campaign
:48:54. > :48:55.session and I thought I would grab some of theirs.
:48:56. > :48:57.Who are these people who are so keenly snapping up
:48:58. > :49:01.There might be a clue back up the road in Brixton again.
:49:02. > :49:03.Just around the corner from its traditional market
:49:04. > :49:06.is a new arrival, Pop Brixton, a box park full of fresh young
:49:07. > :49:08.businesses, social enterprises, hip things to do and
:49:09. > :49:15.Do you see negative things about the EU?
:49:16. > :49:19.Not really, only positive if I'm totally honest but I am
:49:20. > :49:22.all for immigration and letting people in who need a place to live.
:49:23. > :49:25.I really like the idea behind it, the philosophy behind the EU,
:49:26. > :49:27.remaining together for the greater good of the world.
:49:28. > :49:32.The reasons I would vote in, probably for our generation,
:49:33. > :49:48.I just think it kind of makes sense, and if you look at who the people
:49:49. > :49:52.are in the public eye who are voting out, I am definitely not down
:49:53. > :50:01.Where we did find strong support for Remain in Lambeth,
:50:02. > :50:04.again and again it came down to a positive view of
:50:05. > :50:08.migration, diversity and integration with Europe.
:50:09. > :50:12.Next Friday morning we will wake up to discover if enough of the UK
:50:13. > :50:19.feels that way for Britain to remain in the European Union.
:50:20. > :50:25.I am joined by Jonathan Bartley a local Green Party politician in
:50:26. > :50:29.Lambeth. Viewers might see more of him in the future. He is standing to
:50:30. > :50:34.be the leader of the party on a joint ticket with their only MP
:50:35. > :50:38.Caroline Lucas, and he is the bookmakers' favourite to get the
:50:39. > :50:44.job. Research suggests that Lambeth is the place in England that wants
:50:45. > :50:50.to stay in more than anywhere else why? It is the borrower of young
:50:51. > :50:56.people. It is there a future that is at stake. And we are at ease with
:50:57. > :51:01.migration. We have had it for generations. We do not see it as a
:51:02. > :51:08.threat. It is densely populated but we get by. The problems we face are
:51:09. > :51:12.caused by central government cuts, by a local council that does not
:51:13. > :51:18.listen, and not by the local Polish deli on the high street. Last week
:51:19. > :51:22.people said they wanted to leave because of NHS problems, house
:51:23. > :51:28.prices, getting a school place for their kids. They are problems people
:51:29. > :51:34.have in Lambeth. Why are they not voting out to solve them? It is the
:51:35. > :51:38.most unequal elephant in London People recognise that the inequality
:51:39. > :51:42.is not going to the lack of money. We are richer than we have been we
:51:43. > :51:48.have more technological advances than we have ever had, the problem
:51:49. > :51:50.is the money is in the wrong hands. There is a move against
:51:51. > :51:55.gentrification in Lambeth. There is resentment about lots of rich people
:51:56. > :51:59.coming into the elephant. It is not the migrants that are doing that, it
:52:00. > :52:05.is the wealthy that are hoarding the money. That is the cause. You talk
:52:06. > :52:10.about gentrification, richer and younger people coming into the
:52:11. > :52:14.elephant. In the film, it was amongst that group of young,
:52:15. > :52:20.professional people that saw a real support for Remain, that other than
:52:21. > :52:24.the traditional population? I love the diversity of Lambeth. You get
:52:25. > :52:28.people living side-by-side from different backgrounds. The fact we
:52:29. > :52:31.can make it work is evidence that we are stronger together in the
:52:32. > :52:35.European Union. What is missing from the debate but what people in
:52:36. > :52:40.Lambeth get, there is a positive case for the European Union to be
:52:41. > :52:43.made, positive vision. We are looking at the future, not just that
:52:44. > :52:51.what we would lose by leaving, but what we would gain by staying in. We
:52:52. > :52:54.have people with additional needs, disabled people, they need help that
:52:55. > :52:57.they will not get from this government. They will get it from
:52:58. > :53:02.the European Union and will people recognise that and come together to
:53:03. > :53:07.work for it. Jonathan Bartley, thank you. Just a final thought, talking
:53:08. > :53:14.to people in Lambeth, some people did not understand why anybody would
:53:15. > :53:18.vote out. In Havering last week we met people who did not have any
:53:19. > :53:22.conception of why people would want to stay in the European Union. They
:53:23. > :53:28.had not met people from the other side. Although we are one city, it
:53:29. > :53:33.seems that in some ways we are very polarised. Teresa Romero is, what
:53:34. > :53:37.would you say to convince the people of Brixton and Lambeth over the next
:53:38. > :53:42.few days? I think we face a bright future outside the European Union.
:53:43. > :53:46.We will regain control over our trade policy which opens up business
:53:47. > :53:49.opportunities around the world. We will get a great deal from the
:53:50. > :53:54.European Union and carry on doing business with them in the way we do
:53:55. > :53:57.now. We will have control of our own destiny, able to have democratic
:53:58. > :54:02.control over the people who make our lives, so if they get it wrong, we
:54:03. > :54:08.can vote them out at the general election, which we cannot do at the
:54:09. > :54:11.moment. Sadiq Khan, this weekend campaigning in Manchester and Leeds
:54:12. > :54:18.might, why have you been needed to go and campaign their? It is in the
:54:19. > :54:22.interests of country to campaign to stay in the European Union. I been
:54:23. > :54:27.speaking to people in the north-west, explaining why it is
:54:28. > :54:32.important to stay in, for our country. We join Nato and the union
:54:33. > :54:39.in the 1940s. We joined the G7 and the EU in the 1970s. It leads to
:54:40. > :54:43.jobs, trade and investment. We are part of a single market of 500
:54:44. > :54:48.million customers, with one set of rules which we help make. We do 50%
:54:49. > :54:54.of our trade with them. Why would we walk away? Why would that club allow
:54:55. > :54:59.us to get the benefits of that club, not pay the fees, not abide by their
:55:00. > :55:05.rules, when people who are members cannot get those benefits? We would
:55:06. > :55:09.have to pay to trade. Is one of the reasons why you have been heading up
:55:10. > :55:13.to northern areas because of your concerns about how, under your
:55:14. > :55:18.leader Jeremy Corbyn, there has been what people describe as a less than
:55:19. > :55:24.sparkling campaign to Remain? I think it will be a close election.
:55:25. > :55:28.What do you say about his campaign? He has been campaigning all around
:55:29. > :55:33.the country. He was on the BBC this morning talking to the British
:55:34. > :55:36.public. All of us have been campaigning in the Labour Party
:55:37. > :55:41.With three days to go it is important that people turn out to
:55:42. > :55:46.vote to remain. We are not quitters. There is a proud case to remain You
:55:47. > :55:50.mentioned an appearance on television today, but a lot of it
:55:51. > :55:56.has been town hall meetings. You said last week you did not think
:55:57. > :56:00.that had been cutting through. What should he have been doing? It is
:56:01. > :56:10.more exciting, Boris against Cameron, Michael Gove against Nigel
:56:11. > :56:16.Farage. We have three days to go. -- Michael Gove Nigel Farage. You have
:56:17. > :56:23.no issues with the way he has been less than warm about the case for
:56:24. > :56:28.remaining? He thinks that the EU is not perfect. I do not think it is
:56:29. > :56:37.perfect either. He has been explaining the pros and cons, and on
:56:38. > :56:42.balance, it is better to stay. Is there a risk to jobs in London?
:56:43. > :56:48.Organisations like this said that this would be the consequence of not
:56:49. > :56:53.joining the Euro. They were wrong. They are also wrong now. At the
:56:54. > :56:58.heart of the item and for the Remain case, is that somehow this country
:56:59. > :57:03.is too small, too weak, too stupid to run run affairs. That is wrong.
:57:04. > :57:08.We have the greatest financial centre on the planet, the best
:57:09. > :57:12.universities, some of the greatest scientist, we are the fifth biggest
:57:13. > :57:15.economy in world. We invented self-governing democracy and
:57:16. > :57:21.exported around the world. We can run a run affairs. You know that all
:57:22. > :57:23.the major organisations, the business organisations, the city
:57:24. > :57:29.Corporation, are warning of the impact of this. One example, people,
:57:30. > :57:33.and set up their headquarters in London, in the financial sector
:57:34. > :57:39.because it gives them away into the single market. You would be removing
:57:40. > :57:42.that? There are around 75 banks which passport into London. It will
:57:43. > :57:47.be in the interests of the EU to do a good trade deal with us, because
:57:48. > :57:51.they sell more to us than we do to them. It is not in their interest
:57:52. > :57:55.clause of the access of their banks to London or to a wrecked trade
:57:56. > :57:59.barriers, because it will make it more difficult for them to sell
:58:00. > :58:07.goods and services to us. Do we have to many EU migrants in the capital?
:58:08. > :58:09.I was elected on a commitment to reduce migration to hundreds of
:58:10. > :58:14.thousands. I will be working to do all I can they need that manifesto
:58:15. > :58:21.commitment. Tens of thousands, I think. Yes, to reduce it to tens of
:58:22. > :58:25.thousands. An interesting slip. Obviously migration has delivered
:58:26. > :58:30.tremendous benefits to London. Everyone accepts that. There is also
:58:31. > :58:35.a need for democratic control over migration. It is important we have
:58:36. > :58:41.democratic control over decisions as sensitive as that. Should there be
:58:42. > :58:46.an upper limit, Sadiq Khan? No. David Cameron managed to make a good
:58:47. > :58:49.deal with the European Union. EU immigrants who come here work and
:58:50. > :58:57.pay taxes and support our public services. 130,000 EU migrants are
:58:58. > :59:04.working in the NHS and social care. 1.5 million Brits work for companies
:59:05. > :59:14.owned by EU citizens. ?20 billion has been contributed since 2001 I
:59:15. > :59:24.think. You have no concern about the numbers. Of course, we have to
:59:25. > :59:29.manage migration. The problem is the League campaign cannot explain what
:59:30. > :59:32.would happen if we left the EU. Australia, Norway and Switzerland
:59:33. > :59:36.have more immigration pair had than we have under the current rules You
:59:37. > :59:41.do not think there should be an upper limit? You will just see what
:59:42. > :59:46.the market provides? Do you have any concerns at all about the pressure
:59:47. > :59:50.on services, schools, the delay to see a GP, pressures on health
:59:51. > :59:55.services? The deal we have got means that knowing your country can join
:59:56. > :59:58.the European Union without having a veto to stop them, but also, new
:59:59. > :00:03.countries that joined cannot have their citizens come to our country,
:00:04. > :00:07.unless we are happy for them to do so. As far as public services are
:00:08. > :00:12.concerned, the responsibility for them not being enough genuinely
:00:13. > :00:16.affordable homes, it is not the immigrants, it is politicians. The
:00:17. > :00:19.NHS has been starved of investment because of government policy. We
:00:20. > :00:27.need to build enough affordable homes. We should invest in the NHS.
:00:28. > :00:30.EU immigrants support the NHS and social care, and support our
:00:31. > :00:33.schools. We should be addressing concerns is politicians rather than
:00:34. > :00:37.playing on them. What do you say to that?
:00:38. > :00:43.My question has brought tremendous benefits to London, which are great
:00:44. > :00:47.example of a global city with connections all around the world but
:00:48. > :00:50.it is important that we have the ability to control the numbers
:00:51. > :00:54.coming in from Europe because the pressure public services and it is
:00:55. > :00:59.important that we have confidence in the immigration system. What about
:01:00. > :01:04.improving public services because they are in the beating to our tax
:01:05. > :01:08.returns? We are working to do all we can to deliver more housing and
:01:09. > :01:11.improve public services but it is still the case that significant
:01:12. > :01:15.population growth does create pressure and that is one of the
:01:16. > :01:19.reasons why we need to take back democratic control over decisions.
:01:20. > :01:24.And does it really suppress the wages of Londoners? The Bank of
:01:25. > :01:29.England is clear that significant increase in migration depress wages
:01:30. > :01:36.so that it an impact felt today It is a very small effect, 1% or
:01:37. > :01:40.something. Thereupon 03%. You may not think it is significant but
:01:41. > :01:45.people on lower incomes and low skilled work, it is a significant
:01:46. > :01:48.impact on them and we should bear their interests in mind. There are
:01:49. > :01:54.some people in London who benefit from the EU but there are many who
:01:55. > :01:58.are having their wages depressed. Martin Lewis has said that if we
:01:59. > :02:03.leave the EU it is more likely you will have less money in your pocket,
:02:04. > :02:04.it is a fact, experts and evidence points to leaving the EU being bad
:02:05. > :02:05.for jobs and the economy. So, we're entering the final stage
:02:06. > :02:18.of this referendum campaign and it's What do the campaigns have
:02:19. > :02:23.left up their sleeves, and what will be the impact
:02:24. > :02:45.of the papers and Parliament is recalled tomorrow to
:02:46. > :02:50.pay tribute to Jo Cox. That will influence the campaign and take our
:02:51. > :02:56.eyes away from it. We have David Cameron tonight on question Time on
:02:57. > :03:01.BBC One and the big debate from Wembley on BBC One on Tuesday night.
:03:02. > :03:06.How will the final couple of days be? What should we be looking for?
:03:07. > :03:11.It will be more muted than otherwise had it not been for the killing of
:03:12. > :03:15.Jo Cox. I think there is no appetite on either side to return to some of
:03:16. > :03:23.the vociferous nurse of the past month or two. Muted but also quite
:03:24. > :03:26.settled -- the vociferous nature. The campaign is decided in that we
:03:27. > :03:32.know what the issues are but the ultimate question is do you dislike
:03:33. > :03:38.immigration more than you like economic calm and that is the test
:03:39. > :03:45.on Thursday. What impresses me about the Wembley Arena debate on Tuesday
:03:46. > :03:49.is who Remain have chosen as their three debaters. 2-mac of them are
:03:50. > :03:57.clearly designed to pitch to Labour voters, Sadiq Khan... We can see
:03:58. > :04:04.them on the screen. Vadis O'Grady and Sadiq Khan are clearly designed
:04:05. > :04:11.to appeal to the Labour voters - Frances O'Grady. Even Ruth Davidson
:04:12. > :04:17.is a centrist conservative and perhaps better to appeal to Scottish
:04:18. > :04:31.Labour Party voters. You look on the Leave side, Boris Johnson, and Ryan
:04:32. > :04:39.Ledson -- Andrea Leadsom. Looking at that, which is the stronger team? I
:04:40. > :04:43.think the Leave team, if that does not sound too partisan, in terms of
:04:44. > :04:49.dynamism and vitality of personality. There may be some
:04:50. > :04:55.surprises, remaining Ake might put some fresh faces but there are no
:04:56. > :05:01.fresh arguments. There is only now a semantic problem. This item is now
:05:02. > :05:06.anti-uncontrolled immigration and that is an important factor, this is
:05:07. > :05:11.not about uncertainty in an absolute sense because there is uncertainty
:05:12. > :05:18.on both sides. It has now got the point where it is a question of who
:05:19. > :05:24.gets the best formulation. Anything can happen in a big debate,
:05:25. > :05:32.particularly one with 6000 people being there. If I was a Remain
:05:33. > :05:38.strategist, I would be worried that team is a bit underpowered for this
:05:39. > :05:43.big event. I would agree. We might all know Frances O'Grady but I'm not
:05:44. > :05:48.sure anybody us in the country might unless you are a team of of the TUC.
:05:49. > :05:55.Leave a gone with the same team that they thought did well in the eye
:05:56. > :05:59.debate -- in the ITV debate. The main have gone with three different
:06:00. > :06:05.characters. It suggests that they have some new tactics. The last time
:06:06. > :06:09.when we saw Amber Rudd exec are going viciously for Boris Johnson,
:06:10. > :06:16.this one is all about getting out your base vote. People know the
:06:17. > :06:21.arguments, even if you're not been tuning into it has been flooding in
:06:22. > :06:25.subconsciously. It is about motivating your supporters to go to
:06:26. > :06:34.the polls will stop one thing on the Remain choice, Ruth Davidson. We set
:06:35. > :06:41.up a debate of our own, a cab that goes round and interviews people,
:06:42. > :06:46.and we wanted, Ruth Davidson was put up and we could not get a single
:06:47. > :06:52.person in the Leave campaign to debate her. Because they were
:06:53. > :06:56.frightened of her? Yes. She is exceptionally good and smart, when
:06:57. > :07:00.it comes to those one-liners, and if she can pull one off against
:07:01. > :07:05.somebody like Boris Johnson, that could do... But there could be a
:07:06. > :07:09.danger. Let me put it diplomatically, she is not Boris
:07:10. > :07:15.Johnson's biggest fan and Boris Johnson already got attacked by
:07:16. > :07:19.Amber Rudd in the ITV debate. If we go down that road again, it could
:07:20. > :07:24.rebound on them. You could argue that what Amber Rudd got wrong was
:07:25. > :07:28.the tone with which she attacked Boris Johnson and a more skilful
:07:29. > :07:33.politician, like Ruth Davidson, could pull off the same line but
:07:34. > :07:37.deliver it in a better way. The point about scripting is
:07:38. > :07:41.interesting. I was talking to somebody in number ten a couple of
:07:42. > :07:46.days ago who were saying that when you briefed politicians you usually
:07:47. > :07:49.have to give them the killer line on the opponent but with Ruth Davidson
:07:50. > :07:54.you have to do nothing. She is across all the details and she can
:07:55. > :07:59.come up with a venomous whip at the end of a sentence. One thing also
:08:00. > :08:03.very clear from this Remain team is that they are worried about Labour
:08:04. > :08:12.voters who will be key to this and if they are so angry about scare
:08:13. > :08:15.tactics and immigration, they will bring victory to the Leave campaign
:08:16. > :08:19.and that is what people are worried about. This is an identity crisis
:08:20. > :08:25.for the Labour Party, even more than the Conservative Party. David
:08:26. > :08:34.Cameron is on a Question Time special tonight. Michael Gove did
:08:35. > :08:38.one last week. Life programmes with an audience are always tricky but
:08:39. > :08:43.David Cameron knows how to do these things. This is his forte, the
:08:44. > :08:49.medium of his choice which is precisely why it is happening. What
:08:50. > :08:57.will be most interesting tonight is his tone he chooses. The post Jo Cox
:08:58. > :09:00.tragedy age of trying to be nicer to each other, personally I don't think
:09:01. > :09:06.George Osborne succeeded this morning. He can't really do
:09:07. > :09:12.uplifting, happy politics. Even Paddy Ashdown fell into the trap!
:09:13. > :09:16.Two whole years of British politics we have spent campaigning and we
:09:17. > :09:21.haven't stopped, the Scottish referendum into the general
:09:22. > :09:25.election. And the Prime Minister is exhausting. Negative campaigning
:09:26. > :09:30.works. If the PM does the uplifting stuff, that might work better than
:09:31. > :09:34.the scare stories. There is a lot of talk about politicians attacking
:09:35. > :09:38.each other but there is a middle ground about how they are attacking
:09:39. > :09:40.the electorate. The idea of terrifying pages into thinking that
:09:41. > :09:45.the triple lock on their pensions will have to be withdrawn, the
:09:46. > :09:51.sacred promise that Cameron made, if they vote the wrong way, that was
:09:52. > :09:54.disgusting. There is a lot of attempt to put the fear of God up
:09:55. > :09:59.the electorate which has been extremely unattractive. We have had
:10:00. > :10:02.newspaper endorsements, the editorials have come out as usual
:10:03. > :10:06.the Sunday before an important election. The main have the Mail on
:10:07. > :10:13.Sunday, the Observer, the mirror, the people. Leave have the sun on
:10:14. > :10:17.Sunday, the Sunday Telegraph, the Sunday Times and the Sunday express.
:10:18. > :10:21.It is fashionable to say that editorials don't matter but
:10:22. > :10:26.politicians still crave for them to come down on their side. They must
:10:27. > :10:32.have some importance. But if we are heading to a very close result,
:10:33. > :10:39.51-49, even a minimal impact it a significant impact. They matter in
:10:40. > :10:42.this referendum but what is interesting is the way that some
:10:43. > :10:48.newspaper houses have split with the times being pro-leave, the Daily
:10:49. > :10:51.Mail wanting to leave but the Mail on Sunday wanting to remain will
:10:52. > :10:57.stop a lot of people will be cynical and say that these are newspaper
:10:58. > :11:00.proprietors covering their bets I think it is a good reflection on the
:11:01. > :11:04.industry and the editors being given their head to decide a large
:11:05. > :11:14.existential question for the country. When we go into the vote on
:11:15. > :11:23.Friday morning, on Thursday morning, where will we be? Will we know the
:11:24. > :11:26.result? As it was in 1975. Or will it be like the general election last
:11:27. > :11:30.year when even those who thought they knew the result didn't? I think
:11:31. > :11:36.it will be a very long night and we might not know the result until the
:11:37. > :11:42.same time on Friday morning. Polls are polls, snapshots, maybe there
:11:43. > :11:46.are shy people on both sides. The key is getting your vote out. I
:11:47. > :11:50.genuinely have no idea which way it will go. Whichever campaign can put
:11:51. > :11:59.more of their people through the polling station wins. What I'm not
:12:00. > :12:02.clever about, does Remain continue to put about the terrible economic
:12:03. > :12:08.consequences if we leave from their point of view? And does Leave carry
:12:09. > :12:12.on about immigration? Are we going to get more of the same with maybe a
:12:13. > :12:19.different tone after what has happened but fundamentally the same
:12:20. > :12:24.things. Those are the headlines but there are subtle argument and I wish
:12:25. > :12:27.they were getting more attention. I wish the Leave campaign were
:12:28. > :12:34.stressing more the uncertainty economically of the EU. It may be
:12:35. > :12:40.too late. It has been said but it is not a headline. We have them
:12:41. > :12:47.questions about the risks of remaining. But the media attention
:12:48. > :12:52.has been on the risks. You would expect the change proposition to be
:12:53. > :12:59.the one that embodies the risk. The EU is a volatile and some would say
:13:00. > :13:07.failing project. I understand that. That is your point of view. How will
:13:08. > :13:16.we vote? To stay in by a margin of 55-45. That would be healthy. I
:13:17. > :13:20.think it will be Leave by a squeak. Remain. We will bring them back next
:13:21. > :13:23.week to see if they are right. The Daily Politics will be
:13:24. > :13:26.back at noon tomorrow, and the Sunday Politics will be back
:13:27. > :13:30.for a special extended show to take in all the news following the result
:13:31. > :13:43.of the EU referendum. Remember, if it's Sunday,
:13:44. > :13:47.it's the Sunday Politics.