26/06/2016

:00:14. > :00:20.Here we are on Westminster Green. The Shadow Foreign Secretary has

:00:21. > :00:25.been sacked. The Shadow Cabinet is resigning at the rate of one an hour

:00:26. > :00:31.this morning. Is it all over for Mr Corbyn? Not at all. Jeremy isn't

:00:32. > :00:35.going anywhere. He was elected nine months ago. The biggest mandate of

:00:36. > :00:43.any political leader in our country and he isn't going anywhere. What

:00:44. > :00:50.does he do if half the Cabinet will walk out on him today? He will

:00:51. > :00:55.replace them. What is so disappointing in this is that we

:00:56. > :01:01.have no government at the moment. Those promises that were made in the

:01:02. > :01:10.referendum have been reneges upon almost on an hourly basis. The

:01:11. > :01:18.country is in a difficult position now is the time for the opposition

:01:19. > :01:20.to hold together. Hilary Benn says Mr Corbyn is not the leader and you

:01:21. > :02:03.cannot win an election with him I think they should calm down and

:02:04. > :02:06.listen to their members. Who trust polls any more? I have seen polls

:02:07. > :02:36.saying we are on the path for victory. Calm down and

:02:37. > :02:42.And the confidence of the Parliamentary Labour Party? People

:02:43. > :02:46.who are softer or party members I am saying to all members of the

:02:47. > :02:51.Shadow Cabinet, respect the wishes of the members. In that way, we can

:02:52. > :02:55.hold together and win the next election. This is all about one of

:02:56. > :03:00.the basic principles of our party, solidarity. The membership may not

:03:01. > :03:05.be representative of the wider Labour family in terms of labour

:03:06. > :03:10.voters. Labour voters on Thursday did not listen to Jeremy Corbyn or

:03:11. > :03:14.the wider membership? That is true. We argued in the campaign that we

:03:15. > :03:19.should campaign for remain and reform. We lost by a close margin.

:03:20. > :03:24.Hilary Benn was the leader in the Shadow Cabinet of that campaign We

:03:25. > :03:28.did everything to support it but we lost. We have to respect that. It

:03:29. > :03:34.does not mean that those people who voted to leave the European Union

:03:35. > :03:36.will translate that Broad against Labour in the future. Every

:03:37. > :03:43.electoral test Jeremy Corbyn has faced he has one. Apart from the

:03:44. > :03:49.referendum. That was on pole at -- one issue, it was not party

:03:50. > :03:53.political. Jeremy was told he has to deliver two things, Labour voters

:03:54. > :04:00.and young people. Seven out of ten Labour voters voted for Remain. He

:04:01. > :04:05.delivered. Take London out of that and remember the fact that young

:04:06. > :04:08.people did not vote mate in large numbers and it can hardly be a

:04:09. > :04:13.success. If he's going to fight back, how does he do it today. I

:04:14. > :04:19.have heard to Michael Moore Shadow ministers resigning before we came

:04:20. > :04:23.on air. How does he do it? He puts forward the policy programme that we

:04:24. > :04:28.need to negotiate a better deal with Europe on. He shows leadership in

:04:29. > :04:32.that way, which is doing, and he mobilises the membership to go to

:04:33. > :04:36.the Labour supporters to back that programme. We have got to listen to

:04:37. > :04:40.the Labour supporters that did not Broad for the remain campaign and

:04:41. > :04:44.listen to their views. Lots of that is about communities being left

:04:45. > :04:48.behind, the issue he has been highlighting for the last decade.

:04:49. > :04:55.Does anyone like to Jeremy Corbyn for a lead on this no? 24 hours ago,

:04:56. > :04:59.maybe more, he was saying we should trigger Article 50 immediately, but

:05:00. > :05:04.within 12 hours, he was saying, maybe we should not do that? What we

:05:05. > :05:07.want to know is what the deal will be with Europe. What Jeremy will be

:05:08. > :05:12.doing with the rest of the Labour Party, the rank and file in

:05:13. > :05:15.particular, is shaping that the land campaigning around it. We will be

:05:16. > :05:20.hoping that in the absence of government leadership we will be

:05:21. > :05:24.able to get the best deal we can. Our relationship with the European

:05:25. > :05:29.leaders, and social and democratic parties, has been enhanced by

:05:30. > :05:33.Jeremy's leadership. We think we can negotiate a better deal than this

:05:34. > :05:36.government. What would you say to any shadow ministers watching who

:05:37. > :05:41.are thinking of following in the foot steps of Hilary Benn, resigning

:05:42. > :05:44.and triggering a leadership crisis? I know how disappointed people are

:05:45. > :05:49.at the loss of the European referendum but now is the time that

:05:50. > :05:53.we hold together. There is no government in place. We've got to

:05:54. > :05:57.provide that leadership. Listen to your party members who voted in

:05:58. > :06:03.overwhelming numbers for Jeremy nine months ago. Solidarity is key. Some

:06:04. > :06:09.people have been telling us that you have been on leadership movers. No.

:06:10. > :06:13.I will never stand for leadership of the Labour Party. If Jeremy stands

:06:14. > :06:19.for another leadership election I will cheer his campaign. I think the

:06:20. > :06:24.party members will like him again. It is unnecessary. The next few

:06:25. > :06:29.months are key for the Labour Party. We can lead the country but we need

:06:30. > :06:35.to hold together. If Jeremy Corbyn was to fall on his sword tomorrow...

:06:36. > :06:43.He is not. You would not stand? He is not. And any circumstances would

:06:44. > :06:47.you stand as leader of the Labour Party? Jeremy is not falling on his

:06:48. > :06:52.sword. He is not going anywhere and if you did, I would not be standing.

:06:53. > :07:00.Let's be clear, he is not going anywhere. Over the last 48 hours, on

:07:01. > :07:05.-- over 200,000 people have signed a petition to support Jeremy Corbyn.

:07:06. > :07:09.His new style of caring, compassionate, honest politics, I

:07:10. > :07:18.think it has a grip in the country. As a result, we have one on every

:07:19. > :07:22.electoral test on it comes to a party campaign and we will do it at

:07:23. > :07:24.the next general election -- the next general election. Why has part

:07:25. > :07:26.of your shadow team been going around Labour MPs canvassing support

:07:27. > :07:34.for John McDonnell to be leader She has not. I am told she has. She has

:07:35. > :07:39.not, but if she has, let me make this clear, she has not spoken to me

:07:40. > :07:45.about this. I am not standing as leader of the Labour Party. She is

:07:46. > :07:50.part of my team, as a loyal supporter of Jeremy, and has been

:07:51. > :07:55.until now. If she's phoning around, I think that is wrong. I think it is

:07:56. > :08:02.disinformation. I do not want to blame the media for this. Some in

:08:03. > :08:06.the party have tried to divide and rule all the time. It is never going

:08:07. > :08:11.to happen. Jeremy and I have been close friends for 30 years, the best

:08:12. > :08:17.political allies. I will always have his back. If he has to stand for

:08:18. > :08:22.another leadership election, I will be his campaign manager. If he does

:08:23. > :08:25.not stand again, there are no circumstances in which you would

:08:26. > :08:30.stand for leader of the Labour Party? Norway. He is going nowhere.

:08:31. > :08:35.You have said that, I am not arguing. I am not standing and he is

:08:36. > :08:41.not going. He was elected with an overwhelming mandate. So your

:08:42. > :08:47.colleague, if she's doing it, she should stop? She is not. She would

:08:48. > :08:53.not do it without asking me. She is wasting her time? She would not do

:08:54. > :08:57.it without asking me, it is a myth. Propaganda against us. I wonder

:08:58. > :09:04.where that would come from? John McDonnell, thank you for being with

:09:05. > :09:09.us. Thank you to Andrew Marr. This is now the Sunday Politics, coming

:09:10. > :09:13.live from Westminster. The sun is now coming out, and what a week

:09:14. > :09:18.what a date has been in politics, from the moment the referendum

:09:19. > :09:21.result was confirmed, events have leapt forward at an alarming speed.

:09:22. > :09:30.Ellie Price has been watching it unfolds. The British people have

:09:31. > :09:35.spoken and the answer is we are out. It is a victory for ordinary people,

:09:36. > :09:38.decent people, it is a victory against the big merchant banks,

:09:39. > :09:46.against big businesses and against big politics. I will do everything I

:09:47. > :09:51.can as Prime Minister to steady the ship over the coming weeks and

:09:52. > :09:55.months. But I do not think it would be right for me to try and be the

:09:56. > :10:06.captain that steers our country to its next destination. We are well

:10:07. > :10:09.prepared for this. Her Majesty's Treasury and the Bank of England

:10:10. > :10:13.have engaged extensive contingency planning and the Chancellor and I

:10:14. > :10:21.have remained in close contact, including through the night at this

:10:22. > :10:27.point. I am fully aware of how this series and dramatic this moment is

:10:28. > :10:30.politically. There is no way of predicting all the political

:10:31. > :10:39.consequences of this event. Especially for the UK. It is a

:10:40. > :10:44.significant and material change in circumstances, and it is therefore a

:10:45. > :10:50.statement of the obvious that the option of a second referendum must

:10:51. > :10:55.be on the table. It is on the table. It was the morning that changed

:10:56. > :11:00.everything. But the day belonged to the Leave campaign, even if not

:11:01. > :11:05.everyone agreed. Shame on you, Boris, you are a parasite. The man

:11:06. > :11:11.who could well be next try minister made a victory speech with a

:11:12. > :11:14.conciliatory tone. To those who may be anxious, at home or abroad, this

:11:15. > :11:21.does not mean that the United Kingdom would be in anyway less

:11:22. > :11:27.united. Nor does it mean it would be any less European. I want to speak

:11:28. > :11:31.to the millions of people, directly to the millions of people, who did

:11:32. > :11:37.not thought for this outcome. Especially young people. You may

:11:38. > :11:42.feel that this decision in some way involves pulling up a drawbridge, or

:11:43. > :11:46.any kind of isolationism, because I think the very opposite. Whoever

:11:47. > :11:50.becomes the new Conservative leader will have to find a way of dealing

:11:51. > :11:55.with the opposites in their own party. The morning after the night

:11:56. > :12:00.before, Tory MPs insisted they were already looking forward. I am not

:12:01. > :12:05.really interested in the sense that the deep Windsor in the real world.

:12:06. > :12:09.I am not interested in the party. For the first time since the 19 0s I

:12:10. > :12:15.have seen people speak in a way that I had not seen in the last 40 years,

:12:16. > :12:20.Colin, get these immigrants out calling me a traitor. I have never

:12:21. > :12:25.seen such unpleasantness unleashed. We have got to heal. That is where

:12:26. > :12:29.we have got to do the work, the restoration we have to do. Is this

:12:30. > :12:34.the moment the Conservatives stop banging on about Europe? I suppose

:12:35. > :12:38.it might be. Do you fancy yourself as leader? I am not going to make

:12:39. > :12:42.any decision about that until we have rested over the weekend, we

:12:43. > :12:46.have had a chance to speak to colleagues. I would not rule

:12:47. > :12:50.anything out. Only of my colleagues thought there was a chance of

:12:51. > :12:55.reaching over from that Leave side to the other side of the party in

:12:56. > :13:01.what would be a healing process I hope you have a woman in the final

:13:02. > :13:05.two. It is important in 21st century Britain. Whether it is near one of

:13:06. > :13:09.my brilliant female colleagues, that will be for the party to decide

:13:10. > :13:14.Plenty of talk about the future of the Tory leadership at Westminster.

:13:15. > :13:18.They will be a meeting on Monday of the influential backbench 1922

:13:19. > :13:22.Committee to discuss that. It will not be the only meeting of MPs. The

:13:23. > :13:24.Parliamentary Labour Party will be having a catch up with Jeremy

:13:25. > :13:41.Corbyn. That can often be acrimonious and Mandy could

:13:42. > :13:43.be the most acrimonious yet. Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn watched on when

:13:44. > :13:46.David Cameron resigned, but his leadership was called into question

:13:47. > :13:49.by some of his own MPs. He should not escape the result, they say and

:13:50. > :13:51.there may be a motion of no-confidence. If we have the

:13:52. > :13:54.prospect of an early general election, these are serious times,

:13:55. > :14:01.and we have to make sure that we have leadership that can a chance of

:14:02. > :14:05.reaching beyond our corner. It is not clear that are currently the

:14:06. > :14:11.ship can even mobilise our core support, looking at the results we

:14:12. > :14:15.have had so far. Yesterday Jeremy Corbyn sought to confront is

:14:16. > :14:19.critics, announcing a review of the party's immigration policy and

:14:20. > :14:25.answering questions about his leadership. If there is a leadership

:14:26. > :14:28.contest, William and again? Yes I am here, thank you.

:14:29. > :14:33.APPLAUSE I ran a campaign which travelled the

:14:34. > :14:36.length and breadth of this country. I pointed out there were

:14:37. > :14:42.difficulties with the European Union, that is obvious, but I also

:14:43. > :14:46.pointed out that we would achieve better social protections, better

:14:47. > :14:51.levels of employment, investment, in my view, if we remained part of the

:14:52. > :14:54.European Union. It was not enough. This morning that Shadow Foreign

:14:55. > :14:59.Secretary, Hilary Benn, was sacked by Jeremy Corbyn, after plans

:15:00. > :15:03.emerged to coordinate front bench resignations. After that the Shadow

:15:04. > :15:08.Health Secretary, Heidi Alexander, resigned. It is understood up to

:15:09. > :15:13.have the Shadow Cabinet could follow. The ripple effect of the

:15:14. > :15:16.referendum result is still being felt. Westminster may look the same

:15:17. > :15:22.on the outside, but politics here has changed forever. Our panel of

:15:23. > :15:27.the best and the brightest are here to help this page as the events of

:15:28. > :15:31.the last few days. I think the got the referendum along -- wrong.

:15:32. > :15:35.Isabel Oakeshott, Janan Ganesh, Helen Lewis. Let's start with

:15:36. > :15:42.Labour, the breaking story this morning. Hilary Benn fired, Shadow

:15:43. > :15:46.Cabinet ministers resigning. John McDonnell telling me that Jeremy

:15:47. > :15:50.Corbyn will fight on and that he is never going to be a candidate for

:15:51. > :15:54.the Labour leadership. Reaction It is fair to say there is scepticism

:15:55. > :15:59.among Labour MPs about the words of John McDonnell. This has been

:16:00. > :16:03.brewing since the referendum result came in. Labour MPs feel the Jeremy

:16:04. > :16:08.Corbyn's heart was not in the campaign. They feel they are in tune

:16:09. > :16:15.with Labour activists, not necessarily Labour voters. They are

:16:16. > :16:19.very pro -- EU. They want to act before the national executive

:16:20. > :16:22.committee may change the rules. There is a possibility that if there

:16:23. > :16:25.is another leadership election it will not be automatic that Jeremy

:16:26. > :16:31.Corbyn to get on the ballot. The Kubot came there. If Jeremy Corbyn

:16:32. > :16:35.is going to fight on but is facing the resignation of up to 50% of his

:16:36. > :16:42.Shadow Cabinet today, we do not know, some have gone, how does he

:16:43. > :16:45.fight on? With great difficulty By Monday you could end up in a

:16:46. > :16:49.scenario where Jeremy Corbyn cannot populate his Shadow Cabinet and the

:16:50. > :16:53.second year shadow ministerial positions. If you cannot deliver the

:16:54. > :16:58.numbers to form a viable opposition it becomes difficult for him to

:16:59. > :17:03.remain. During my lifetime the two great political parties have taken

:17:04. > :17:08.it in turn to meltdown. Labour did it in the 1980s, the Tories did it

:17:09. > :17:13.in early 2000. It is unprecedented to have both melting down at the

:17:14. > :17:19.same time. The implications for government are obvious. John Kerry

:17:20. > :17:22.is visiting soon. It is a measure of how noticed across the world our

:17:23. > :17:28.disorder in public life is at the moment. The referendum has been a

:17:29. > :17:31.massive international story, not just a European one. John McDonnell

:17:32. > :17:36.says there are plenty of other Labour MPs ready to join the Shadow

:17:37. > :17:42.Cabinet and Jeremy Corbyn has the support of the membership. Clearly

:17:43. > :17:48.Jeremy Corbyn thinks he can brazen it out. The big question is what is

:17:49. > :17:52.Tom Watson going to do, his deputy? He is a big figure within the party.

:17:53. > :17:57.He is trying to make his way back from Glastonbury. It looks like his

:17:58. > :18:01.mobile phone is about to run out of juice. Here's a couple of hours to

:18:02. > :18:05.wait until he can get the train back. Total pandemonium. On any

:18:06. > :18:09.other day, this meltdown in the Labour Party would be the biggest

:18:10. > :18:14.Tory, but to a lot of people today, it feels like a sideshow to the key

:18:15. > :18:19.question is, what happens after Brexit and two will be the next

:18:20. > :18:25.Prime Minister? Who will be the next Prime Minister?

:18:26. > :18:31.I think he would be a fool to make a prediction. It is hard to see

:18:32. > :18:36.someone being able to come from relative obscurity as David Cameron

:18:37. > :18:41.did, in order to join the front rank of politicians. The question really

:18:42. > :18:44.is if everyone gets behind someone like Theresa May, because she is

:18:45. > :18:52.seen as the only viable big beast who could take on Boris. Norris was

:18:53. > :18:57.the face of the winning side. There will be a stop Boris candidates I'm

:18:58. > :19:03.sure, among MPs. Is that Theresa May? I'm flattered you're still

:19:04. > :19:08.interested in my opinion, having got the prediction on the referendum so

:19:09. > :19:11.horribly wrong. I don't see how a country which has just voted to

:19:12. > :19:16.leave the European Union can have a Prime Minister who believes it is a

:19:17. > :19:21.bad idea because the Prime Minister has to negotiate the terms of exit.

:19:22. > :19:25.I would say the Prime Minister, chancel and Foreign Secretary all

:19:26. > :19:30.have to be committed believers now. They have all got to be on the same

:19:31. > :19:36.page. That is almost certainly right, isn't it? Yes, I always

:19:37. > :19:40.thought Boris would be a shoo-in particularly with the accelerated

:19:41. > :19:44.timetable the Prime Minister has given this leadership contest. I am

:19:45. > :19:49.having a moment of doubt as to whether Boris is a shoo-in. It is

:19:50. > :19:52.strange that in the last 24 hours he doesn't seem to have been on

:19:53. > :19:57.manoeuvres like so many of his colleagues. He has been flat-footed,

:19:58. > :20:02.we haven't seen much of him, and already we have seen quite strong

:20:03. > :20:09.signs of a backlash against Boris. I wouldn't say he is a shoo-in. But if

:20:10. > :20:16.it comes down to the final two, and goes to the country, he wins, does

:20:17. > :20:21.he not? All of the polling suggests he is wildly popular with the

:20:22. > :20:24.members, however that breaks down in an interesting way. He's incredibly

:20:25. > :20:30.popular when you want to say who do you have a beer with? During a

:20:31. > :20:33.national crisis, he scores less well and people might feel this is a time

:20:34. > :20:38.of national crisis but he's very hard to beat among the membership.

:20:39. > :20:39.We thought we would get a rest after the referendum, that is never going

:20:40. > :20:42.to happen. You may currently be

:20:43. > :20:44.unfamiliar with Article 50 You won't be alone, with half

:20:45. > :20:48.the civil service scrabbling to read It is actually an amendment to the

:20:49. > :20:57.Treaty of Maastricht. But given it's the key that

:20:58. > :20:59.unlocks our membership of the European Union,

:21:00. > :21:02.chances are we will all become very familiar with it over

:21:03. > :21:04.the next months and years. The UK will be the first country

:21:05. > :21:08.to trigger Article 50, and it has been left deliberately

:21:09. > :21:10.vague so that each member state can decide how

:21:11. > :21:15.and when it wants to leave. As soon as it is invoked,

:21:16. > :21:17.it opens a two-year window However, David Cameron has

:21:18. > :21:22.effectively paused the process until the Conservative leadership

:21:23. > :21:27.contest is over. Once Article 50 is invoked,

:21:28. > :21:29.the terms of negotiations will be set by our 27 counterparts

:21:30. > :21:34.in the European Commission. What will be the substance

:21:35. > :21:40.of the talks? Our budget contributions will be

:21:41. > :21:42.discussed, as will transition arrangements for expats

:21:43. > :21:47.and cross-border companies. It is also likely to cover how EU

:21:48. > :21:51.financial programmes in the UK are phased out,

:21:52. > :21:54.and whether there should be transitional arrangements and rights

:21:55. > :21:56.conferred by the EU, But a new trade deal would have

:21:57. > :22:03.to be arranged separately, could take significantly longer

:22:04. > :22:05.and will require ratification from each of the 27

:22:06. > :22:11.national parliaments. Once a British exit deal has been

:22:12. > :22:14.hammered out, it will be put to the European Council

:22:15. > :22:17.and will need support from a qualified majority,

:22:18. > :22:21.at least 20 of the 27 members, If a deal is reached,

:22:22. > :22:28.it will then be subject to a vote If a deal cannot be reached,

:22:29. > :22:35.the two-year period can be extended, but only through a unanimous vote

:22:36. > :22:44.of the council. There we are, much more of that to

:22:45. > :22:48.come in the weeks ahead. Earlier I spoke to the former

:22:49. > :22:51.Labour Prime Minister, Tony Blair. I began by asking him if he accepted

:22:52. > :22:54.Thursday's result that we are now out of the European Union

:22:55. > :23:06.for the forseeable future. I accept the result was to get out

:23:07. > :23:11.of Europe, that is clear. What do we do now? What I also think is that we

:23:12. > :23:15.have got to be very careful now to take our time and work out what the

:23:16. > :23:20.consequences are of exit and what our new relationship with Europe

:23:21. > :23:23.will be. Here is where I think it is important we don't rush this

:23:24. > :23:28.process, there is no need to rush it. I think in the next two or three

:23:29. > :23:31.months, the present by Minister has got an important role to play in

:23:32. > :23:36.shaping how that negotiating framework will proceed, and I think

:23:37. > :23:41.it is important for the country to see what are the actual

:23:42. > :23:46.consequences. What's the reality of leaving, and what possible options

:23:47. > :23:52.are there for new relationships The leaders of Europe, including

:23:53. > :23:57.President Jean-Claude Juncker, have said there is no point waiting, just

:23:58. > :24:04.apply for Article 15 out, start the process, let's get on with it. What

:24:05. > :24:07.do you say to that? I understand their frustration and dismay at the

:24:08. > :24:13.result in Britain but it is not in the interests of Europe or Britain

:24:14. > :24:16.to rush this. We are dealing with vast consequences, and we have got

:24:17. > :24:21.to take it very carefully. I have worked very closely with Angela

:24:22. > :24:29.Merkel, I know her very well. She is a very sensible person. I mean, she

:24:30. > :24:35.has those good German qualities of practical common sense and realism,

:24:36. > :24:38.and she will want to do this, I think, in a way that gets the best

:24:39. > :24:42.for Europe and indeed for Britain because people want to retain that

:24:43. > :24:53.relationship with Britain. I don't know how much room for manoeuvre

:24:54. > :24:58.these people that have led the Leave campaign have. But I think they also

:24:59. > :25:02.have a big responsibility to help our country get itself through what

:25:03. > :25:07.is going to be an agonising and highly complicated process of

:25:08. > :25:13.defining a new relationship with Europe. The odd thing about this

:25:14. > :25:18.referendum, when you think about it, it's like saying to someone, right,

:25:19. > :25:23.you are going to swap your house. You know where you live but you will

:25:24. > :25:29.swap it for another house. And right now, we can give you two people you

:25:30. > :25:33.cannot see that the house but we can give you two people who tell you

:25:34. > :25:38.what they think. One says this house will be fantastic, great for you,

:25:39. > :25:42.and the other says this house is structurally on sound, you will hate

:25:43. > :25:46.it. We have taken the decision to swap homes, if you like, without

:25:47. > :25:50.having seen what the other thing looks like. Over this period of

:25:51. > :25:56.time, we will see what it looks like. We will then get right into

:25:57. > :26:01.the detail because the detail matters. For example financial

:26:02. > :26:03.services, if we don't have the EU passport for our financial services,

:26:04. > :26:08.what does that mean for the City of London? You could get thousands of

:26:09. > :26:13.jobs going so how do you preserve it? What does the car industry do?

:26:14. > :26:19.We have hundreds of thousands of jobs dependent on it. I think the

:26:20. > :26:23.detail will really matter and we need to take our time over this so

:26:24. > :26:28.that the country also carries on being engaged in a debate about what

:26:29. > :26:33.this really means. But what would you advise Boris Johnson and Michael

:26:34. > :26:38.Gove to go for in terms of the overall relationship? The details

:26:39. > :26:41.will take a long while, I understand that, but broadly what kind of

:26:42. > :26:47.relationship would you advise them to have going forward? I think one

:26:48. > :26:51.that preserves as much as we can of our access to the market in Europe

:26:52. > :26:58.because that is essential, I mean half of our trade is with Europe,

:26:59. > :27:01.but secondly which allows us at least some decisions that will be

:27:02. > :27:05.made that have a direct bearing on Britain. One of the things that so

:27:06. > :27:10.curious about this whole process is that we are an independent country,

:27:11. > :27:15.we are an independent country now. I say to people, I think the ten years

:27:16. > :27:19.I had as by Minister, I cannot think of a single decision that Europe

:27:20. > :27:23.said to me I had to make or I couldn't make other than those to do

:27:24. > :27:28.with Europe specifically. We will now be in this new relationship with

:27:29. > :27:32.Europe, we have got to work out what is in our interests. We have got to

:27:33. > :27:36.understand something as well, I think it is very important about

:27:37. > :27:43.where the country is today. I think it is deeply divided. The Leave camp

:27:44. > :27:49.won, but 48% voted Remain. I think there was a lot of dismay and anger

:27:50. > :27:53.among that 48%. I think a lot of young people particularly feel their

:27:54. > :27:57.future has been changed in a way they profoundly disagree with. And

:27:58. > :28:02.so, if there is a desire in the Leave camp to try to bring the

:28:03. > :28:08.country back together, if there is a maturity there in the politics of

:28:09. > :28:11.Leave, we have also got to show a majority for the politics of Remain

:28:12. > :28:14.and work out how we do this best for the country but that argues for a

:28:15. > :28:24.negotiating process which allows the country at every stage to see, this

:28:25. > :28:31.is the reality. It is no longer about claims and counterclaims. Do

:28:32. > :28:38.you rule out another referendum As I'm looking at it here, I can't see

:28:39. > :28:43.how we would do that. You will have a reality to test yourself against.

:28:44. > :28:47.For example, in the last few days there has been this vast crash in

:28:48. > :28:51.the financial markets, something like $3 trillion has been wiped out

:28:52. > :28:55.financial markets globally, the pound has obviously fallen

:28:56. > :29:00.dramatically, but maybe studies itself in the days to come. The

:29:01. > :29:05.British people and the Europeans need to see that reality. Maybe as

:29:06. > :29:10.we get into it, there are companies that say, we are perfectly happy, we

:29:11. > :29:16.can live with the new arrangement, others say, we can't. If we finally

:29:17. > :29:21.see the structure, what is in the new house, we see the house we will

:29:22. > :29:26.now move into outside the EU, should that go for a referendum? As I say,

:29:27. > :29:30.I cannot see how you would go through the mechanics of another

:29:31. > :29:33.referendum now, but on the other hand there will be a lot of people

:29:34. > :29:39.in the country that say, let's have a look at this. Parliament will want

:29:40. > :29:45.to look at it. Remember, the one thing, again what was strange and

:29:46. > :29:49.unsatisfactory about the referendum campaign is the devil really is in

:29:50. > :29:52.the detail with this. I was trying to say to people, if you are

:29:53. > :29:57.deciding whether to join the European Union, that is one kind of

:29:58. > :30:02.debate, but when you are deciding whether to leave after four decades

:30:03. > :30:07.of membership, with intricate relationships, we need to see that.

:30:08. > :30:11.We need to see for example who will win that battle in French politics

:30:12. > :30:17.between those who say the border should go back to Dover now or the

:30:18. > :30:23.border will stay in Calais. All of these things I think are low us now

:30:24. > :30:27.to be, now we are going to see the new home, now we will look at it and

:30:28. > :30:32.test it, we will be going round it, we will be seeing what it really

:30:33. > :30:37.means. And so in a sense, what I'm saying is we have a divided country

:30:38. > :30:43.but I think there is the possibility of bringing people back together if

:30:44. > :30:46.we are sensible about it and don't let our dismay on either side of

:30:47. > :30:55.this argument get the better of our judgment. Why did Remain lose? I

:30:56. > :30:59.don't think that is very hard to work out. You could buy the wake of

:31:00. > :31:02.this type of referendum anywhere in Europe at the moment and you would

:31:03. > :31:08.have the potential for the result to be the same. One of the things I

:31:09. > :31:14.think is important for us as we go into this European negotiation, it

:31:15. > :31:20.is Europe can take one of two views. They can say, get out as fast as

:31:21. > :31:26.possible. The other thing they could do and maybe they should do when

:31:27. > :31:29.they reflect about it, if we approach this negotiation sensibly,

:31:30. > :31:34.is to think the British had their referendum but actually we have the

:31:35. > :31:39.same strains of opinion and the same anxieties in our own countries,

:31:40. > :31:47.let's think about how we deal with those and let's not look upon the

:31:48. > :31:51.Brits as outliers. They were always difficult in Europe, now we have got

:31:52. > :31:55.rid of the difficult people. No every country is anxious about the

:31:56. > :32:03.effect of globalisation on jobs and so on. I think it is not hard to see

:32:04. > :32:08.why Leave won. Personally I think it is a very serious mistake for us but

:32:09. > :32:16.there it is. It's not hard to see how they win. You still haven't told

:32:17. > :32:21.me why they won. Because when you take a dissatisfaction with the

:32:22. > :32:24.status quo politically and anxiety about flat-lining incomes, worries

:32:25. > :32:33.about immigration particularly, and immigration has always been... Let's

:32:34. > :32:38.be very clear, you and I go back 30, 40 years. Immigration has always

:32:39. > :32:41.been an issue. Where you mobilise opinion around it, particularly when

:32:42. > :32:47.the British media are prepared to take your platform and run with it,

:32:48. > :32:52.a referendum in those circumstances is going to be a tough thing. But

:32:53. > :32:56.immigration has never been bigger and a lot of the British people felt

:32:57. > :33:01.not so much about the numbers coming in, as it is very well for these

:33:02. > :33:05.politicians to let the people in but they are not building the schools

:33:06. > :33:11.and hospitals. They are not building the public services that we need if

:33:12. > :33:14.these numbers are to go and they felt the British political elite on

:33:15. > :33:16.the left and right were not listening to them and they may have

:33:17. > :33:25.been right. I thought my last election campaign

:33:26. > :33:29.on immigration. I know what a strong issue it is. But the answer to the

:33:30. > :33:32.problems and the pressures from Eastern Europe in particular,

:33:33. > :33:36.because I think the Eastern European is make a good contribution to this

:33:37. > :33:41.country. You did not build the houses for them coming in, neither

:33:42. > :33:45.did the last Labour government, and this government has not built

:33:46. > :33:49.enough? That was the reaction. I would suggest it is also why the

:33:50. > :34:07.Labour Party could not mobilise its vote for a massive turnout for movie

:34:08. > :34:12.Mac. -- Remain. You were the man that made the Labour Party love the

:34:13. > :34:15.EU. That is true. We invested massively in these communities, in

:34:16. > :34:22.education and health care care particularly. What not in housing?

:34:23. > :34:25.Housing is a real issue. We have to take it seriously. The right way to

:34:26. > :34:30.deal with it is to have a housing policy for the population as a

:34:31. > :34:37.whole. The other thing about immigration, it all gets lumped

:34:38. > :34:40.together. I think a lot of people's anxieties about immigration were not

:34:41. > :34:44.centred around those from Europe of those from outside Europe, however,

:34:45. > :34:48.I do except there were communities, and when people see their

:34:49. > :34:53.communities changing around them as a result of an influx of people you

:34:54. > :34:58.have got to deal with that. Yes I agree, but the answer is not to get

:34:59. > :35:02.out of Europe. Would your side perhaps have won if Labour had not

:35:03. > :35:08.fought such a half hearted campaign? I have made my comments on the

:35:09. > :35:12.campaign. What is important for us is to make sure that our own people

:35:13. > :35:18.understand why we were so passionate about staying in Europe. None of the

:35:19. > :35:23.problems that our voters face, problems and pressures on housing,

:35:24. > :35:27.jobs, health care, education, they will might be resolved by leaving

:35:28. > :35:32.Europe. One of the things that will also happen over the months to come

:35:33. > :35:37.is that as this reality, I keep seeing, now you can test this by

:35:38. > :35:41.reality, as that sinks in, there will be lots of Labour voters that

:35:42. > :35:45.realised this was not a smart move that the country has made. This

:35:46. > :35:52.morning, after the sacking of Hilary Benn, a prominent supporter of movie

:35:53. > :35:56.Mike -- Remain in the Shadow Cabinet, there seems to be amounting

:35:57. > :36:02.to inside the Parliamentary Labour Party against Jeremy Corbyn. Should

:36:03. > :36:15.there be at two? I was coming on this programme to talk about Europe.

:36:16. > :36:19.-- a coup. I understand why you have to ask me. I know nothing more than

:36:20. > :36:24.I have read in the newspapers and seen on in years. This is for the

:36:25. > :36:25.Parliamentary party. It is not helpful for me to intervene, so I am

:36:26. > :36:28.not going to. The former Prime Minister Tony

:36:29. > :36:37.Blair, speaking to me But not about Labour's mounting

:36:38. > :36:43.troubles today. They have just got more serious. Another Labour MP

:36:44. > :36:50.Ivan Lewis, who is running for M -- for me than Manchester, has called

:36:51. > :36:51.on Jeremy Corbyn to step down. - for mayor.

:36:52. > :36:53.Now Jo Coburn is here with us this morning.

:36:54. > :36:56.She's high up on the rooftops, casting her eye over events

:36:57. > :37:01.Events are so fast moving politically, the next Prime Minister

:37:02. > :37:08.in the Conservative Party leadership, and what happens to the

:37:09. > :37:09.UK after Brexit. Let's get some reaction from a former cabinet

:37:10. > :37:10.minister. With me now is the former

:37:11. > :37:12.Cabinet Minister Francis Maude, who was a Europe minister under

:37:13. > :37:22.Margaret Thatcher and negotiated You never made it clear before the

:37:23. > :37:28.referendum what side you were wrong. Can you tell us no? I am not going

:37:29. > :37:33.to see which way I voted until May direct my memoirs many years from

:37:34. > :37:38.now. You surprised by the result? I thought it would be a narrow victory

:37:39. > :37:42.for Remain but there was lots of anxiety around. My concern is that

:37:43. > :37:47.this is not a binary thing. The referendum result? The referendum

:37:48. > :37:54.clearly was, and it has to be, all or nothing, yes or no. The reality

:37:55. > :37:59.is, for quite some time, we have been a 65% per participant in the

:38:00. > :38:03.European Union. We are not part of the currency, or the Schengen

:38:04. > :38:08.agreement. At the end of this process, we should not be a

:38:09. > :38:13.nonparticipant. Boris Johnson said yesterday we are European nation. We

:38:14. > :38:16.will continue to be. The result of this cannot be pulling up the

:38:17. > :38:21.drawbridge into some sort of isolation. That is the language

:38:22. > :38:26.you're using, but the fact is the UK has voted to leave the European

:38:27. > :38:33.Union. Negotiations will start. They should not be rushed. They should

:38:34. > :38:37.not be rushed? No, Tony Blair was right when he said it is neither in

:38:38. > :38:44.Britain's or in the EU's interest for it to be rushed. There is a

:38:45. > :38:48.debate in the EU. People are talking about what happened in Britain on

:38:49. > :38:53.Thursday, but that is not a completely unique British

:38:54. > :38:57.phenomenon. But no one else has left the EU. There is anxiety about the

:38:58. > :39:01.direction of the EU in other countries, for example, the

:39:02. > :39:04.Netherlands. When I was doing European stuff 24 years ago, that

:39:05. > :39:11.was the most deeply pro-EU country that there was. That debate within

:39:12. > :39:16.the EU that someone spotted, Donald Tusk has spotted it, Angela Merkel

:39:17. > :39:20.has spotted it, that carrying on and assuming that this rigid doctrine,

:39:21. > :39:25.one size fits all, that approach, assuming that is the only way you

:39:26. > :39:29.can go, if that continues to be the case, there is a severe danger that

:39:30. > :39:32.the EU will spring apart. You think this could trigger a series of

:39:33. > :39:39.events that could be the beginning of the end for the EU? Unlettered

:39:40. > :39:43.reacts in a grown-up, sensible way. Why would it do that? I have heard

:39:44. > :39:47.European leaders saying that actually we have to see Great

:39:48. > :39:52.Britain, the United Kingdom, heard by leaving the EU, or what signal

:39:53. > :39:57.does it send to the one else? The signal it would send is it as an

:39:58. > :40:02.organisation which is willing to self harm in order to protect the

:40:03. > :40:06.very narrow, rigid approach to how countries collaborate and work

:40:07. > :40:10.together. Britain is the fifth biggest economy in the world, the

:40:11. > :40:15.biggest trading partner with our partners in the EU. To do something

:40:16. > :40:19.which damaged our economy deliberately would actually damage

:40:20. > :40:25.the European Union as well. Talking of harm... Europe would pretty soon

:40:26. > :40:29.start sneezing if we caught the cold. What about the Conservative

:40:30. > :40:35.Party? Lots of people were shocked when David Cameron resigned on

:40:36. > :40:38.Friday morning? Where you? I was disappointed. He has been an

:40:39. > :40:42.excellent Prime Minister and has led some excellent reforms. I sat round

:40:43. > :40:45.the Shadow Cabinet table with him for ten years and I am full of

:40:46. > :40:51.admiration for the leadership they give the party. It has to be his

:40:52. > :40:54.decision. I understand his view that the negotiations about the new

:40:55. > :41:00.arrangements of Britain's relationship with Europe has to be

:41:01. > :41:06.undertaken by someone who has been in the campaign. Like Boris Johnson?

:41:07. > :41:10.I have worked closely with Boris, Michael Gove, I am full of

:41:11. > :41:15.admiration for him. There are some very serious candidates. They would

:41:16. > :41:19.give the right leadership in the country and the party. Is Boris

:41:20. > :41:26.Johnson unstoppable? I have no idea, I am not in the House of Commons, so

:41:27. > :41:28.I do not know. In terms of advice, let's imagine Boris Johnson and

:41:29. > :41:33.Michael Gove are part of the negotiating team once there is a

:41:34. > :41:37.leadership contest. What would you say to them? The starting point so

:41:38. > :41:41.far as economic relationship with our current partners in the European

:41:42. > :41:45.Union is concerned, the starting point should be that others need to

:41:46. > :41:52.show why we should not be able to trade on the same kind of bases that

:41:53. > :41:57.we do at the moment. Bielik Norway, or Switzerland? Nothing has to be

:41:58. > :42:02.quite so one size fits all as you're suggesting. There is no single

:42:03. > :42:06.model. Britain is the fifth biggest economy in the world. It is a

:42:07. > :42:10.different kind of relationship. It has always had a different kind of

:42:11. > :42:13.relationship within the European Union. This will be another

:42:14. > :42:19.different relationship in the future, unique and distinctive. When

:42:20. > :42:23.people start saying, of course, Britain cannot be part of the single

:42:24. > :42:28.financial market, the answer is why not? You need to show why. Everyone

:42:29. > :42:32.has been saying that Europe as well as Britain benefits from being in

:42:33. > :42:37.the single financial market. Why would you want to commit an act of

:42:38. > :42:40.self harm to deny that? You sound as though it will be smooth and

:42:41. > :42:44.straightforward, Britain will get what it once in terms of the

:42:45. > :42:48.benefits of being in the EU, despite having left, and none of the things

:42:49. > :42:54.that the goal voted on, freedom of movement for example? Freedom of

:42:55. > :42:58.movement is coming under criticism, absolute freedom of movement, as it

:42:59. > :43:01.is framed at the moment, it has been coming under criticism from many

:43:02. > :43:07.parts of the political spectrum both in Britain and across the EU.

:43:08. > :43:09.What was part of their original deal was freedom of movement of labour,

:43:10. > :43:15.people moving to where they had jobs. That is different from what we

:43:16. > :43:20.have seen at the moment, which is what is cause such concern, not just

:43:21. > :43:27.in Britain but in other parts of the European Union. I'll do surprise but

:43:28. > :43:29.the reaction of European Union, -- European Union leaders, foreign

:43:30. > :43:34.ministers, who are saying that this is not an amicable divorce, telling

:43:35. > :43:40.Britain to get on with it? It depends on who you talk to. Donald

:43:41. > :43:44.Tusk has not been speaking in that kind of language. Angela Merkel has

:43:45. > :43:50.not been speaking in that kind of language. It depends on who you

:43:51. > :43:53.listen to. There is no sense for European neighbours to be acting in

:43:54. > :43:59.a way that deliberately harms Britain because, by harming Britain,

:44:00. > :44:03.they harm themselves. If you inflict deliberate damage and your nearest

:44:04. > :44:10.neighbour, your biggest trading partner, that has a blowback effect

:44:11. > :44:15.on them as well. When tempers cool, I understand they are irritated by

:44:16. > :44:19.all of this, but when it comes down, and people start to think about what

:44:20. > :44:24.is in their collective self-interest, then I think you

:44:25. > :44:27.start to get a more rational, more sensible approach, which does not

:44:28. > :44:32.need to be full of hostility and anger. Have you been approached to

:44:33. > :44:38.be part of the negotiating team I have not. Would you say yes? You

:44:39. > :44:43.have had experience and you're familiar with negotiating within the

:44:44. > :44:47.EU. I am not pitching for that. I have left the front line in politics

:44:48. > :44:51.and I am happily engaged in a new phase of my life. But it really

:44:52. > :44:56.matters that we get this right and I would be happy to advise whoever is

:44:57. > :45:00.the new government, if they wanted to hear advice. Should the key

:45:01. > :45:07.negotiating team be full of people who campaigned to leave? I think it

:45:08. > :45:12.needs to be pretty broad. This was not a massive vote. It was decisive

:45:13. > :45:17.and clear, there is no room for argument, but it was not a massive

:45:18. > :45:21.vote to leave. I think the new government and Prime Minister will

:45:22. > :45:24.need to take his or her role as leader of the nation as seriously as

:45:25. > :45:31.the role as leader of the party Francis Maude, thank you very much.

:45:32. > :45:35.Back to you, Andrew. I have the words of Ivan Lewis, the Labour MP

:45:36. > :45:38.who is running for the mayor of Manchester. It is clear Jeremy

:45:39. > :45:43.Corbyn cannot lead us back to government and there is a real risk

:45:44. > :45:48.we will suffer worse election result than in 2015. Ivan Lewis, MP. No

:45:49. > :45:53.more shadow ministers have resigned so far. Maybe some of them having

:45:54. > :46:02.second thoughts after they watched interview with John McDonnell. I am

:46:03. > :46:05.joined now by one of the Conservative's leading Leave

:46:06. > :46:09.campaigner, Liam Fox. What is your road map for getting out of the EU?

:46:10. > :46:13.We need to have the establishment of the unit in Whitehall, which I would

:46:14. > :46:17.like to see Derek Rae answerable to Number 10 rather than the Foreign

:46:18. > :46:21.Office of the Treasury, to begin discussions with our European

:46:22. > :46:24.partners ahead of what would be a trigger for Article 50. Presumably

:46:25. > :46:29.when we have a new Prime Minister in place. You go along with the

:46:30. > :46:33.existing prime ministers's timetable, that Article 50 begins

:46:34. > :46:40.the formal Brexit process? You do not want a trigger that before the

:46:41. > :46:43.autumn? No. It makes sense to decide our position in the UK. We have to

:46:44. > :46:47.put mechanics in place, increase the size of the Foreign Office,

:46:48. > :46:50.established a trade department. We will want to see as members of

:46:51. > :46:55.Parliament tomorrow what work has been done in preparation for a

:46:56. > :46:59.Brexit. This idea that no contingency planning was done is

:47:00. > :47:04.preposterous. That would have been responsible. We will want to see

:47:05. > :47:08.what work has been done and we will have to get such a unit under way so

:47:09. > :47:14.that there is no vacuum being created. I have heard some people in

:47:15. > :47:18.the Leave campaign saying it could be later than the autumn that we

:47:19. > :47:22.begin the formal process. The end of the year, the beginning of the new

:47:23. > :47:27.Year. That would be difficult. You would be looking to get an exit from

:47:28. > :47:31.the European Union at the beginning of the year. The financial year of

:47:32. > :47:35.the European Union is at the start of the calendar year. That would

:47:36. > :47:41.bring added complications. You want to get it tidied up. We want to see

:47:42. > :47:44.a process that means we can leave the European Union on the 1st of

:47:45. > :47:49.January 2019. That seems like a reasonable timetable. European

:47:50. > :47:52.leaders, particularly those in Brussels, the president of the

:47:53. > :47:57.commission and so on, they do not want to wait. They want to start the

:47:58. > :48:01.discussion is now. They may not want to agree to your ideal formal

:48:02. > :48:07.discussions therefore we present the Lisbon Treaty button. -- informal

:48:08. > :48:11.talks. Article 50 only gets triggered when there is a letter or

:48:12. > :48:16.a clearer definition. It is only Britain that can trigger it? Yes.

:48:17. > :48:19.What the European bureaucrats on, the ones that are on elected and not

:48:20. > :48:23.answer book to anyone, their attitude is different to the

:48:24. > :48:28.Chancellor of Germany, who herself is facing real action next year You

:48:29. > :48:32.will see an increasing split between the on elected bureaucrats with no

:48:33. > :48:37.one to answer two and politicians with real economies to manage. You

:48:38. > :48:43.are confident we can get meaningful, informal discussions to sketch out

:48:44. > :48:44.some principles, not necessarily details, this side of triggering

:48:45. > :48:52.Article 50? Yes and we need to begin soon

:48:53. > :48:59.because there will be a willingness from our elected parliament to be in

:49:00. > :49:03.those discussions. The brothel - Brussels bureaucracy regard as

:49:04. > :49:06.impertinent to wanted to have leave the European Union, but we have got

:49:07. > :49:10.to do it quickly because we have got to show we have some momentum in

:49:11. > :49:16.this. Otherwise, if we create a vacuum it is a recipe for

:49:17. > :49:20.instability. Who should head up our negotiations? That is up to the

:49:21. > :49:29.Prime Minister but I think there needs to be a mixture of people who

:49:30. > :49:37.understand the views of trade experts... But who should lead,

:49:38. > :49:41.Michael Gove? He is an excellent suggestion, we also have Peter

:49:42. > :49:44.Lilley, who was involved in one of the most recent trade rounds, but we

:49:45. > :49:49.need to get it under way and Parliament needs to see what

:49:50. > :49:53.preparatory work needs to be done. Since we voted to leave, Nigel

:49:54. > :50:00.Farage has said it was a mistake to promise more money for the NHS. Dan

:50:01. > :50:04.Hannan, Tory MP, has said the leave campaign never promised a radical

:50:05. > :50:08.decline in immigration. So continuing with the Department of

:50:09. > :50:16.honesty, can we now agree that there is an extra 350 million quid a week

:50:17. > :50:25.to spend on other public services? An extra 10 billion per year, but of

:50:26. > :50:29.course that is only available once we have actually left the European

:50:30. > :50:34.Union, which will be 2019, and those decisions have to be taken by the

:50:35. > :50:38.Government of the day. That will be very different from the one we have

:50:39. > :50:44.now. It is a long time in the future but what the Leave campaign, and

:50:45. > :50:47.what people didn't grasp was that it wasn't an election, they were

:50:48. > :50:52.reluctant to give future governments greater choice over the actions they

:50:53. > :51:03.could pursue if they wanted. So I will log that the 350 is more like

:51:04. > :51:08.160. Will the Tory department whittle down the leadership hopefuls

:51:09. > :51:14.to a short list of two by the time the Parliament across the road goes

:51:15. > :51:19.off to the summary says on July the 21st? It is a decision that will be

:51:20. > :51:24.taken by the 1922 committee. I think we should have a timetable similar

:51:25. > :51:29.to the one we had in 2005, not least because our party membership will be

:51:30. > :51:35.involved in the decision. What was that timetable? We didn't have the

:51:36. > :51:42.MPs' ballot until after the party conference so people could see a

:51:43. > :51:47.range of candidates they might have. So you would like a beauty parade at

:51:48. > :51:52.the Tory party conference in the first week of October that includes

:51:53. > :51:58.all of the Tory candidates? That is what we did last time, that was the

:51:59. > :52:07.system that produced David Cameron's election. Then the party... Know,

:52:08. > :52:13.first the House of Commons would have to reduce five or six

:52:14. > :52:17.candidates down to two, then the party and the country would have to

:52:18. > :52:22.decide who is right so the Prime Minister may be there until

:52:23. > :52:26.November. Potentially, under that timetable. I don't think that has

:52:27. > :52:32.huge drawbacks because we need to get that period of the pre-talks

:52:33. > :52:38.under way, then you have the new Prime Minister and can trigger

:52:39. > :52:44.article 50. Is it realistic to have a lame duck government from the end

:52:45. > :52:50.of June until the beginning of November? My view is that having

:52:51. > :52:54.that period does not make a huge difference to the process, but it

:52:55. > :53:00.might make a better choice for leadership and a better process for

:53:01. > :53:03.the party. And if it is a beauty parade at the party conference,

:53:04. > :53:09.William Fox be part of that beauty parade? I don't know, I haven't

:53:10. > :53:13.decided yet. I am thinking about it, I will make a decision once I have

:53:14. > :53:18.spoken to my colleagues in Parliament this week. And if you're

:53:19. > :53:23.hat is not in the ring, do you have a favourite you would support? I

:53:24. > :53:26.might have and you will be among the first million to know, Andrew! Thank

:53:27. > :53:50.you for that, Liam Fox. Well, Friday was a

:53:51. > :53:52.pretty dramatic day. But Thursday was also

:53:53. > :53:54.a pretty dramatic night. Adam Fleming once again

:53:55. > :54:05.behind the scenes at It is referendum night, so call in

:54:06. > :54:13.someone who has done it all before. How does this compared to presenting

:54:14. > :54:19.it in 1975? I cannot remember anything about 1975 except my hair

:54:20. > :54:33.was brown and not white. What were you doing in 1975? Were you born? I

:54:34. > :54:37.was a twinkle in my father's eye. We are going to have to do things the

:54:38. > :54:43.old-fashioned way, wait for the results to come in one by one. Early

:54:44. > :54:49.to declare Sunderland went Leave's away by more than they had expected.

:54:50. > :54:56.Newcastle opted for remain by not -- but not by a lot. It felt very

:54:57. > :55:02.close. Look, both on 50%. Do we know what is happening at this point No,

:55:03. > :55:07.and I have just responded to a tweet sent by a colleague. And still we

:55:08. > :55:13.start to see results from the south east, because the Remain come out

:55:14. > :55:21.predicating a win on a good showing in London, Surrey, East Sussex,

:55:22. > :55:29.Hampshire, that sort of area. Until I see some results elsewhere, no,

:55:30. > :55:36.not yet. In between, politicians did radio interviews in strange places.

:55:37. > :55:40.Come round here, and there is Amber Rudd, a member of Parliament, in the

:55:41. > :55:48.kitchen. I am waiting to do an interview, it is living the dream. I

:55:49. > :55:56.will have an Americano with a dash of milk. Labour areas, lots of them

:55:57. > :56:01.voted out, but according to Labour that was actually a good thing. What

:56:02. > :56:06.do you think when you see that? It is what I was expecting. I have been

:56:07. > :56:13.saying all the way along it will be touch and go, really close. This has

:56:14. > :56:20.demonstrated exactly where the country is, fairly Eurosceptical but

:56:21. > :56:25.pragmatic and wants to remain within. Whichever way it goes, I

:56:26. > :56:28.think there will be a few percentage points either way and Jeremy will be

:56:29. > :56:33.a reflection of how the country feels and that is what you want in a

:56:34. > :56:42.leader. The percentages were not going Remain's away, as proved by

:56:43. > :56:47.the miserable faces up their party. Brexit campaigners like Jacob

:56:48. > :56:56.Rees-Mogg started to think about dreams of their own.

:56:57. > :56:59.I'm opening a fete on Saturday and that will be a great celebration

:57:00. > :57:05.Actually, I promised to take my four-year-old to the toy

:57:06. > :57:07.shop because it was his birthday yesterday and he can

:57:08. > :57:12.He may get a slightly better present if there is a Brexit.

:57:13. > :57:13.Finally, just before 5:00am, David Dimbleby declared

:57:14. > :57:17.The decision taken in 1975 by this country to join the Common Market

:57:18. > :57:21.has been reversed by this referendum to leave the EU.

:57:22. > :57:24.The action moved from the studio to Westminster and they denouement

:57:25. > :57:31.I love this country and I feel honoured to have

:57:32. > :57:38.The Prime Minister going, Britain's destiny changed,

:57:39. > :57:51.David Cameron's early morning announcement of his resignation

:57:52. > :57:54.on Friday fired the starting gun on the first Conservative leadership

:57:55. > :58:05.To stand for the party leadership, candidates only need to be

:58:06. > :58:10.If more than two candidates stand, a ballot of MPs whittles that down

:58:11. > :58:12.via first past the post, until they are left

:58:13. > :58:17.Those two are then put to the full membership of the party,

:58:18. > :58:19.said to be about 150,000 strong who decide the winner

:58:20. > :58:25.David Cameron has said he wants a successor in place

:58:26. > :58:27.by the Conservative Party conference in Birmingham, which starts

:58:28. > :58:34.But it will be the backbench 19 2 Committee which decides

:58:35. > :58:41.They will meet tomorrow to set the process in train.

:58:42. > :58:50.I'm joined now by the Deputy Chairman of the Conservative Party

:58:51. > :59:04.Is it not inconceivable, given that the country has voted to leave the

:59:05. > :59:09.EU, that it can be anything but a Brexit leader to take over? That may

:59:10. > :59:15.be the case but it will be up to the members and Parliamentary party to

:59:16. > :59:20.decide. My point is that, given the way the country has voted, given the

:59:21. > :59:26.Conservative Party voted even more that way to leave, that you need to

:59:27. > :59:32.have a leader that embodies... Was there for the fight on that side. It

:59:33. > :59:36.may be that the party membership decides for those reasons to vote

:59:37. > :59:40.for a Brexit leader, but it may be that they vote for someone over all

:59:41. > :59:44.who they think will best serve the country and party, it is just

:59:45. > :59:49.unknown. Will they be likely to trust somebody that said vote to

:59:50. > :59:54.remain to head up the divorce negotiations to leave? I don't think

:59:55. > :59:57.that will come into the equation because the country has voted to

:59:58. > :00:02.leave, I don't believe in the second referendum. I believe our party has

:00:03. > :00:08.moved forward now so people want to consider a range of things. Who are

:00:09. > :00:12.the main candidate in your view Who knows, because no one has put

:00:13. > :00:19.themselves forward yet. Clearly Boris will be one of them, maybe

:00:20. > :00:23.Stephen Crabb, who knows. What about Theresa May? We haven't heard from

:00:24. > :00:29.her. I'm sure we will hear from people over the next week. Including

:00:30. > :00:40.Theresa May? She seems to be missing in action. We will see. Are George

:00:41. > :00:49.Osborne's leadership hopes now in toast? We will see. The country has

:00:50. > :00:56.made its decision. You are reluctant remainer, is that fair? Yes, because

:00:57. > :01:02.with the terrorism I believe it is better to be in an alliance of

:01:03. > :01:06.democracy. I think as a party we have faced three existential

:01:07. > :01:09.challenges. One is in terms of how people perceive us and whether we

:01:10. > :01:13.are seen as a passionate Conservative Party, second way in

:01:14. > :01:17.terms of our infrastructure. If we are honest or infrastructure is

:01:18. > :01:20.dying in the country and our membership is ageing, and thirdly it

:01:21. > :01:24.will be best at restoring party unity. I want someone who will deal

:01:25. > :01:28.with those serious issues that really threaten our existence as a

:01:29. > :01:33.party. They are even more relevant because the Labour Party will get

:01:34. > :01:38.its act together and get rid of Jeremy Corbyn. The European issue

:01:39. > :01:43.has destroyed the careers of the last three Conservative prime

:01:44. > :01:47.ministers. Margaret Thatcher, John Major, now David Cameron. Is there

:01:48. > :01:51.any chance now the country has taken the decision to leave that it

:01:52. > :01:59.doesn't become the toxic issue it has been for your party? I think we

:02:00. > :02:03.should follow perhaps the 11th commandment for every conservatism,

:02:04. > :02:08.pessimism is a luxury know one should allow themselves. Obviously

:02:09. > :02:12.the renegotiations will be difficult but we need to move on and discuss

:02:13. > :02:19.other issues that are facing the country. Finally, what do you make

:02:20. > :02:22.of what Liam Fox has told this programme, that rather than MPs

:02:23. > :02:26.rushing to create the short list of two names that then goes to the

:02:27. > :02:31.wider Conservative Party and the country, to do that by July the 21st

:02:32. > :02:35.with summer hustings and a combination of the Tory conference

:02:36. > :02:40.if I can put it that way, that in fact it should all be on hold until

:02:41. > :02:44.the Tory conference and that you should have hustings there, then

:02:45. > :02:49.whittle it down to two, and have a new leader by the beginning of

:02:50. > :02:53.November. My own feeling is that it will be up to 1922 and the

:02:54. > :02:58.membership to decide. I would prefer that we don't go on forever choosing

:02:59. > :03:01.a leader. I think we need a new leader for the stability of the

:03:02. > :03:02.country, but we need someone who will put compassionate conservatism

:03:03. > :03:13.at the forefront. Your fellow MPs have to get a short

:03:14. > :03:17.list of two by July the 21st? Am not telling them, but we should have a

:03:18. > :03:22.leadership contest sooner rather than later, because the country

:03:23. > :03:25.needs stability. I will take that as a yes. Robert Halfon, thank you very

:03:26. > :03:26.much. It's not just Her

:03:27. > :03:28.Majesty's Government feeling the after-shocks

:03:29. > :03:29.of Plates also appear to be

:03:30. > :03:34.shifting for Her Majesty's Opposition, with Jeremy Corbyn

:03:35. > :03:36.sacking Hilary Benn from his Shadow Cabinet last night

:03:37. > :03:39.and facing a vote of no confidence at tomorrow's meeting

:03:40. > :03:40.of the The secret ballot will not

:03:41. > :03:49.have any formal status, but backers hope it will embolden

:03:50. > :03:52.others to speak out, and build an unstoppable momentum

:03:53. > :03:55.against their leader. So far, MPs, including

:03:56. > :04:01.Stephen Kinnock, Frank Field, Caroline Flint and Tristram Hunt,

:04:02. > :04:03.have already said they However, in order to depose

:04:04. > :04:08.a sitting Labour leader, a challenger will have

:04:09. > :04:09.to put themselves forward, and receive the support

:04:10. > :04:13.of 20% of the party's MPs. There are currently 229 Labour MPs,

:04:14. > :04:16.so 46 would have to back the leadership challenge by writing

:04:17. > :04:19.to general secretary Iain McNicol If a nominee secures

:04:20. > :04:29.that level of support, a contest will be held

:04:30. > :04:33.at the party's autumn conference, taking place in Liverpool

:04:34. > :04:37.at the end of September. If any further MP wanted to enter

:04:38. > :04:40.the race, they would also need Voting takes place on a one member,

:04:41. > :04:47.one vote basis by Labour members, affiliates and registered

:04:48. > :04:50.supporters. If more than two candidates stand,

:04:51. > :05:01.voters will rank their preferences. If no candidates get above 50%

:05:02. > :05:03.on first preference, the last placed candidate

:05:04. > :05:06.is eliminated and their vote is transferred until one gets

:05:07. > :05:14.above the threshold. We are now hearing that another

:05:15. > :05:18.Shadow Cabinet minister has resigned, Gloria del Piero. One of

:05:19. > :05:21.the younger intake of Labour politicians from the North, ought to

:05:22. > :05:22.be in tune with what Labour needs to do in the North.

:05:23. > :05:27.With me now is the Shadow Defence Secretary Emily Thornberry.

:05:28. > :05:34.Are you going to resign? No, and I can tell you why. I think that at a

:05:35. > :05:38.time like this, when the Tory party is pulling themselves apart, when

:05:39. > :05:42.nobody has any idea with the country ought to go next, the challenge for

:05:43. > :05:47.the Labour Party is to show some leadership. And to be a centre of

:05:48. > :05:56.composure, to think about where we are going, and I think we should be

:05:57. > :05:59.thinking about the nation first What is happening in your Shadow

:06:00. > :06:01.Cabinet? Why is this happening? I do not really understand it. We had a

:06:02. > :06:05.Shadow Cabinet meeting on Friday and there were lots of opportunities

:06:06. > :06:09.than for people to express what they thought. I made it clear that the

:06:10. > :06:13.defence of UI have been working on for the last 56 months would need to

:06:14. > :06:19.be redrafted. I would need to think again about it. In light of what is

:06:20. > :06:24.happening? Yes, it has a big impact on defence. It was disappointing for

:06:25. > :06:29.me but the important thing is we remain unified as a party and focus

:06:30. > :06:33.on what is important. The important thing is what are we going to do

:06:34. > :06:38.now. The pound is falling, look at what is happening to share prices.

:06:39. > :06:45.We need to be calm, and we need to show a bit of foresight and

:06:46. > :06:48.leadership. Focus. Now, or fall times now, people think it is a good

:06:49. > :06:53.idea to go for a leadership challenge? It is extraordinary. It

:06:54. > :06:56.seems that lots of your colleagues in the Shadow Cabinet and even more

:06:57. > :07:01.in the parliamentary party, they seem to be angry that there was not

:07:02. > :07:04.enough leadership during the referendum campaign from Jeremy

:07:05. > :07:09.Corbyn, and they do not think that Hilary Benn is a leader and they do

:07:10. > :07:13.not think he can take you to victory in 2020. That is all coming from

:07:14. > :07:18.Hilary Benn given that he ran the campaign. I'll so think that if

:07:19. > :07:22.Jeremy had been allowed, David Cameron, if he had stepped aside and

:07:23. > :07:27.let Jeremy take a leadership role in this campaign, I think we would have

:07:28. > :07:32.done better. In what way did David Cameron stop Jeremy Corbyn? David

:07:33. > :07:38.Cameron made it all about him, about his brilliant deal, getting onto the

:07:39. > :07:42.media all the time, always being blue on blue. When I spoke to David

:07:43. > :07:46.Cameron during the referendum campaign, he was complaining he was

:07:47. > :07:50.having to do all the heavy lifting. He was not just complaining about

:07:51. > :07:55.the lack of support from the Labour Party, but from the Tories as well.

:07:56. > :07:59.Where did he stop Jeremy Corbyn making his mark? Jeremy made 30

:08:00. > :08:04.speeches up and down the country. There was very little space us to

:08:05. > :08:08.get inserted into that debate. People criticise Jeremy for saying

:08:09. > :08:13.that he was only in favour of the European Union, 7.5 out of ten. I

:08:14. > :08:19.think that was truthful and real, and it reflected the views of lots

:08:20. > :08:22.of people in the country. Lots of people will have voted to remain.

:08:23. > :08:26.Those on the fence would have questioned whether they were in

:08:27. > :08:32.favour. Jeremy's voice was more truthful. Does that mean he is a

:08:33. > :08:36.better leader than David Cameron? I suspect it does. When did Jeremy

:08:37. > :08:40.Corbyn complain he was not been allowed to do more? We were always

:08:41. > :08:45.complaining. I went to Birmingham with half of the women from the

:08:46. > :08:50.Shadow Cabinet. We spoke to women in workplaces and so on. What was the

:08:51. > :08:54.coverage we got? There was a little clip, a film of us going into

:08:55. > :08:59.summer, and the voice-over being, nobody knows what Labour says on the

:09:00. > :09:05.referendum. Nonsense. You can complain you did not get the media

:09:06. > :09:09.coverage you wanted. That is true. I do not remember Mr Corbyn rushing to

:09:10. > :09:13.accept one-on-one interviews. There were plenty of offers. In the end, I

:09:14. > :09:19.think he did one on Sky News in the evening. If he was champing at the

:09:20. > :09:24.bit to get it across, why did they not agree to do more interviews and

:09:25. > :09:28.programmes like this? The truth is that Jeremy had a straightforward

:09:29. > :09:32.response to the referendum. I think he should have been given an

:09:33. > :09:38.opportunity to get that out more. If he had been able to, that would have

:09:39. > :09:42.rung true with the country. I'll so think the Jeremy was also elected

:09:43. > :09:47.less than a year ago and 60% of the membership voted in his favour. Now

:09:48. > :09:52.is not the time for us to go for a leadership challenge, this is

:09:53. > :10:00.nonsense. We have you here, arguing your case, effectively as always. It

:10:01. > :10:03.is not true of all Labour people. I think that Mr Watson has been to

:10:04. > :10:09.Glastonbury. I am not quite sure what the silent disco is. There he

:10:10. > :10:14.is, the deputy leader of the Labour Party. Would you rather be there

:10:15. > :10:18.with him or here with me? I would always rather be with you. I knew

:10:19. > :10:23.you would say that. What would use it to your colleagues in the

:10:24. > :10:28.Parliamentary Labour Party to face this motion of no confidence that

:10:29. > :10:32.could be placed before the PLP tomorrow night? I am told there

:10:33. > :10:37.could be a majority forehead. I do not think there will be a motion of

:10:38. > :10:41.no confidence tomorrow night. They could vote the next day? Or the week

:10:42. > :10:46.afterwards, depending on how you interpret it. Could you lose? I

:10:47. > :10:51.think members of Parliament need to look at what the country is calling

:10:52. > :10:56.out for. The country is calling out for the Labour Party to step up and

:10:57. > :11:02.show an alternative. We must do that in a unified way. There is not the

:11:03. > :11:05.time for internal fighting. It is quite marketable we have a Prime

:11:06. > :11:09.Minister who has just resigned, there will not be a new Prime

:11:10. > :11:14.Minister at least until the beginning of October, if Liam Fox

:11:15. > :11:17.gets his way, it may not be until November. And the Labour Party is in

:11:18. > :11:22.the middle of its own turmoil as well. I have covered situations

:11:23. > :11:26.where one party has been in turmoil and the other one has taken

:11:27. > :11:32.advantage, but you are now both in turmoil. It is unprecedented? I

:11:33. > :11:38.agree, and the future is in hands. It is up to us, what we decide to do

:11:39. > :11:40.in the next few days. I will urge my colleagues to take a responsible

:11:41. > :11:46.view of this and think of the country first. The country needs us

:11:47. > :11:51.to be there. You're right, the Tories went into this, the two parts

:11:52. > :11:55.of the Tories, the Brexiteers went in not knowing what would happen if

:11:56. > :12:00.we got the Leave vote, and the government went in with no plan B.

:12:01. > :12:05.There is no plan at the moment, and our country needs a party to step up

:12:06. > :12:10.and do that role. That is what we should be doing. What do you say to

:12:11. > :12:14.those Labour supporters, not members, but supporters and voters,

:12:15. > :12:20.in the heartlands of the North and the Midlands, who did not follow

:12:21. > :12:23.your party's advise? They voted in substantial numbers to leave. They

:12:24. > :12:29.do not think that this Labour Party represents them. What do you say to

:12:30. > :12:33.them? One thing that came out clearly from this Brexit vote, is

:12:34. > :12:38.that half the country feels that the system does not help them. They are

:12:39. > :12:42.getting a raw deal, and whether that is because they cannot get their

:12:43. > :12:48.kids housing, or because they are having problems with their jobs and

:12:49. > :12:50.their terms and conditions, weather data not get access to public

:12:51. > :12:55.services, all these things are wrapped up in the vote. The tragedy

:12:56. > :12:58.is that we have answers to that nationally, and if we have a decent

:12:59. > :13:02.government prepared to address those issues, perhaps people would have a

:13:03. > :13:08.slightly different view. Now we have to reach out and speak to them. We

:13:09. > :13:13.must not do what happened after the Scottish referendum, when the Labour

:13:14. > :13:17.Party turned in on itself. We have running out of time. Can you give me

:13:18. > :13:21.a one sentence inkling of how your defence review might change? There

:13:22. > :13:28.is a question of how we defend borders now. If the GDP goes, we're

:13:29. > :13:35.2% of GDP being spent on defence. What happens if GDP goes through the

:13:36. > :13:40.floor? Will have cuts? I also think that the EU and Nato two sides of

:13:41. > :13:47.the same coin. International relationships will change. A whole

:13:48. > :13:48.range of things will be affected. Thank you very much, Emily

:13:49. > :13:50.Thornberry. Now, as one union was broken

:13:51. > :13:53.with the vote on Thursday, the fate of another

:13:54. > :13:55.came into sharp focus. In Scotland, First Minister Nicola

:13:56. > :13:57.Sturgeon of the SNP said the option

:13:58. > :13:59.of a second referendum on independence was now very much

:14:00. > :14:02.back on the table after Scotland voted by a significant margin

:14:03. > :14:06.in favour of remaining within the EU,

:14:07. > :14:09.only for votes elsewhere in Britain to swing

:14:10. > :14:12.Here she is speaking earlier on the Andrew

:14:13. > :14:21.At this stage I am not prepared to accept that certain things are

:14:22. > :14:27.inevitable. I have a job to do to protect Scotland and negotiate the

:14:28. > :14:30.best way forward. I look on at what is happening at Westminster with a

:14:31. > :14:36.sense of utter despair and a half of people across England and other

:14:37. > :14:40.parts of the UK, as the vacuum of leadership in the Tories and Labour

:14:41. > :14:43.develops. There is no vacuum of leadership in Scotland. As First

:14:44. > :14:47.Minister I will do everything I possibly can to prevent Scotland

:14:48. > :14:50.been taken out of the European Union, because the consequences of

:14:51. > :14:51.allowing us to be so will be devastating.

:14:52. > :15:03.Well, Scotland's not the only part of the

:15:04. > :15:05.UK where there are calls for constitutional change

:15:06. > :15:08.In Northern Ireland Sinn Fein have suggested that British

:15:09. > :15:11.withdrawal from the EU has strengthened the case for

:15:12. > :15:14.I'm joined now from Londonderry by the Deputy First Minister

:15:15. > :15:15.of Northern Ireland, Martin

:15:16. > :15:23.Welcome to the programme, Martin McGuinness. Thank you. First of all,

:15:24. > :15:30.what makes you say that the 56% vote to remain as overwhelming? It is a

:15:31. > :15:34.very clear vote by a majority of people in the North, which are made

:15:35. > :15:39.up of unionists, nationalists and Republicans, who wished to remain in

:15:40. > :15:43.Europe. I think that cannot be ignored, either by the British

:15:44. > :15:47.government, the Irish government, or the powers that be at the European

:15:48. > :15:54.Union. What we do need in the immediate future is an all Ireland

:15:55. > :15:58.solution to the problem. That requires the attention of the

:15:59. > :16:03.Taoiseach in particular. I was very disturbed over the last couple of

:16:04. > :16:07.days, when the Taoiseach focused on how sympathetic the Irish government

:16:08. > :16:10.would be to British government that was negotiating its way out of

:16:11. > :16:14.Europe over the course of the two years. Rather he should have been

:16:15. > :16:18.focusing on how the democratically expressed wishes of the majority of

:16:19. > :16:25.people in the north, to remain in Europe, could be catered for. I

:16:26. > :16:27.spoke to the Irish government Foreign Minister on Friday and I

:16:28. > :16:32.have requested an urgent meeting with the Taoiseach on this matter.

:16:33. > :16:36.Right, but to get back to this idea that there is an overwhelming

:16:37. > :16:40.desire, following that vote to remain in Northern Ireland, to

:16:41. > :16:45.remain in the EU, why would that translate to an overwhelming, to use

:16:46. > :16:52.your word, to have a referendum on Irish unification? The border poll

:16:53. > :16:58.was part of the Good Friday Agreement. It is something I think

:16:59. > :17:02.you'd be conducted in a very civilised and cordial fashion, just

:17:03. > :17:06.as the debate on Scottish independence was conducted in

:17:07. > :17:09.Scotland. There is not an overwhelming desire, stated just

:17:10. > :17:14.from the vote last Thursday, from what you're calling for? I did not

:17:15. > :17:19.say that there was. What I did say was that I do believe that that

:17:20. > :17:24.exercise is one that should be undertaken at some stage in the

:17:25. > :17:28.future. The immediate focus, the immediate focus needs to be on how

:17:29. > :17:34.we continue our relationship with the European Union? That is where my

:17:35. > :17:39.focus is. That is where my focus is on that is why I think discussions

:17:40. > :17:43.with the Taoiseach are urgent and require immediate attention, as the

:17:44. > :17:47.discussions with the powers that be at the European Union are. When you

:17:48. > :17:52.consider the position of Scotland, which is also overwhelmingly voted

:17:53. > :17:57.to remain in Europe, there is a massive responsibility no given that

:17:58. > :18:00.we have these two massive centres of population that want to remain in

:18:01. > :18:04.Europe. The powers that be within the European Union need to take

:18:05. > :18:08.account of the democratically expressed wishes of the people of

:18:09. > :18:14.Scotland and Northern Ireland. That is to do with the relationship with

:18:15. > :18:17.the European Union. Enda Kenny, the Irish Taoiseach, seemed some

:18:18. > :18:21.distance from welcoming your demand for a border poll. He said, we have

:18:22. > :18:23.more serious issues to deal with in the medium term and that is where

:18:24. > :18:31.our focus lies. My focus lies on how we can continue

:18:32. > :18:38.to maintain our relationship with the European Union. So you are not

:18:39. > :18:43.against holding this border poll? No, we do believe there should be

:18:44. > :18:47.one in the future. In the immediate future the focus needs to be on the

:18:48. > :18:50.whole issue of how we can maintain our relationship with Europe, which

:18:51. > :18:55.has been so beneficial over the course of the last number of

:18:56. > :18:58.decades. Whenever you consider the dangers for us in terms of the

:18:59. > :19:04.dangers to our ability to develop our economy, the dangers to the

:19:05. > :19:08.prospect of border controls, which I think would represent a very serious

:19:09. > :19:11.undermining of the Good Friday Agreement, the whole issue of

:19:12. > :19:15.foreign direct investment which is now threatened by the decision to

:19:16. > :19:22.pull out of Europe, particularly from Northern America. But you

:19:23. > :19:26.cannot do that, can you, unless there was some sort of referendum on

:19:27. > :19:32.Irish reunification. You cannot do that from within the UK, since the

:19:33. > :19:36.UK has voted as a whole to leave. I'm saying there needs to be special

:19:37. > :19:40.arrangements which take account of the democratically expressed wishes

:19:41. > :19:45.of the people of Northern Ireland and the people of Scotland, who

:19:46. > :19:51.wished to remain and maintain our contacts and ability to work with

:19:52. > :19:56.very senior officials and governmental authorities within

:19:57. > :20:00.Europe. So I think that from my perspective, although you are

:20:01. > :20:07.focused on the issue of the border poll, the immediate task has to be

:20:08. > :20:11.how the democratically expressed wishes of the people here in the

:20:12. > :20:16.north of Ireland can be catered for in the context of these huge debates

:20:17. > :20:20.which will consume over the course of the next number of months. Of

:20:21. > :20:24.course we are very disturbed that the British Prime Minister has

:20:25. > :20:28.clearly indicated that there will be no engagement with Europe on the

:20:29. > :20:31.whole issue of article 50 until there is a new British Prime

:20:32. > :20:35.Minister. Martin McGuinness, thank you. It is a fast-moving story here

:20:36. > :20:58.this morning. We now have Gloria De Piero's

:20:59. > :21:10.resignation letter, and a letter from Margaret

:21:11. > :21:24.Hodge. We need to believe Jeremy Corbyn should consider his position.

:21:25. > :21:27.When he did engage she was half-hearted, and in the end of

:21:28. > :21:33.Labour Party members and voters didn't know where the leader really

:21:34. > :21:37.stored. That is the latest from there. We have reassembled just for

:21:38. > :21:44.a few minutes before we go to the nations and regions our dream team

:21:45. > :21:47.panel. So we have a lame duck government, the dysfunctional

:21:48. > :21:53.opposition, and we voted to leave the EU. Anything else happening in

:21:54. > :21:57.politics today? It doesn't look like these resignations are petering out.

:21:58. > :22:05.It is only about an hour since the last one! I think Gloria De Piero is

:22:06. > :22:11.very significant because she was a close ally of Tom Watson, it looks

:22:12. > :22:15.like it is picking up steam now She is one of those Labour MPs from the

:22:16. > :22:20.north. She had been in the media but seemed to be firmly rooted in the

:22:21. > :22:24.north, away from the Metropolitan chattering classes so that is

:22:25. > :22:31.significant. Not from a privileged background. She is going, there is a

:22:32. > :22:39.rumour Charlie Faulkner is also going, and he was always the bridge

:22:40. > :22:43.between the moderates and the Corbyn supporters. You ask if anything else

:22:44. > :22:46.is going on in politics at the moment, there is the potential

:22:47. > :22:52.unravelling of the UK itself. In the vacuum of leadership which has

:22:53. > :22:57.emerged since Friday morning, David Cameron going, Jeremy Corbyn being

:22:58. > :23:02.weak in his position, the closest thing I have seen in leadership is

:23:03. > :23:09.Nicola Sturgeon north of the border. You may or disagree with her

:23:10. > :23:18.position but she has a plan. The markets will be opening at 7am

:23:19. > :23:25.tomorrow here in London. The sterling, the FTSE could take a

:23:26. > :23:30.knock. Doesn't the Prime Minister now have to give a clear idea of

:23:31. > :23:35.where Britain goes now? Of the beginning of the informal talks the

:23:36. > :23:41.process. Even though he is on his way out, isn't his duty to steady

:23:42. > :23:45.the ship? The biggest question is where on earth is the Chancellor in

:23:46. > :23:49.all of this. He is responsible in overseeing what will happen in the

:23:50. > :23:53.next few days in terms of the economy. We have that dignified and

:23:54. > :23:58.reassuring statement from Mark Carney, the governor of the Bank of

:23:59. > :24:02.England on Friday morning. Since then, where is George Osborne. He is

:24:03. > :24:07.nowhere to be seen, I find it extraordinary. It is no good to say,

:24:08. > :24:15.I don't think, that he's busy talking behind the seems to the

:24:16. > :24:20.people that matter. He should be showing some leadership. Maybe he's

:24:21. > :24:23.sharing the same safe house is Theresa May, maybe they are holed up

:24:24. > :24:29.together working out how to stop Boris Johnson as being the next

:24:30. > :24:42.leader of the Tory party. Over the coming weeks there will be the

:24:43. > :24:46.so-called ABBs, Anyone But Boris. They didn't keep out Jeremy Corbyn

:24:47. > :24:50.so they may have a fight on their hands.

:24:51. > :24:52.It's just gone 11.30, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:24:53. > :24:55.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

:24:56. > :24:58.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.

:24:59. > :25:08.First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.

:25:09. > :25:14.This morning we're trying to unpick what Brexit means for a capital city

:25:15. > :25:16.which really didn't - and doesn't - want it.

:25:17. > :25:19.We also now have a scenario where the only recently-departed

:25:20. > :25:21.Tory Mayor of London is now the favourite to become

:25:22. > :25:28.While into that mix an unfolding story of Shadow Cabinet dismissals

:25:29. > :25:39.and resignations over the leadership of the member for Islington North.

:25:40. > :25:49.One of Jeremy Corbyn's allies, Diane Abbott is here.

:25:50. > :25:51.Also Victoria Borwick, Conservative MP for Kensington,

:25:52. > :26:04.Let's concentrate for a moment or new, Diane Abbott. Is his position

:26:05. > :26:08.tenable? Of course, whatever happened with the referendum, this

:26:09. > :26:12.group of people would have been making a move because they never

:26:13. > :26:20.accepted the result of last summer's leadership election. In this letter

:26:21. > :26:25.from Margaret Hodge, it is clear, rallies with activist are all very

:26:26. > :26:32.well, we need to transform into votes at the ballot box. That is

:26:33. > :26:39.fine but some of my colleagues are under the illusion... If they want a

:26:40. > :26:42.new Leader of the Opposition we must either have a proper leadership

:26:43. > :26:47.election, and this vote of confidence has no status in the rule

:26:48. > :26:52.book, or they set up a new party and go to the speaker with names of

:26:53. > :26:57.members who are in the new party. That way they can get a new leader

:26:58. > :27:01.but it will be a new party. People find it extraordinary that you are

:27:02. > :27:05.backing him when, as Hilary Benn said today, those people who are

:27:06. > :27:13.filled with confidence and optimism, even they are beginning to turn

:27:14. > :27:18.against him. There is no evidence that if Jeremy ran again as leader

:27:19. > :27:30.he wouldn't win. The reason I have confidence in Jeremy is because the

:27:31. > :27:40.party has confidence in Jeremy. He left Jeremy with no choice. I saying

:27:41. > :27:44.that people are saying to you that the EU referendum debate was

:27:45. > :27:49.adequate? People need to look at David Cameron. He chose to have the

:27:50. > :27:54.referendum, he chose the timing he chose the actual question, and we

:27:55. > :27:59.got, despite everything people are now saying, we got over 60% of

:28:00. > :28:03.Labour members to vote to remain. If David Cameron had got the same

:28:04. > :28:07.proportion of Tories to vote to remain, we would be in the EU today.

:28:08. > :28:11.Fingers should be pointed at David Cameron. OK, let's move on, we have

:28:12. > :28:17.a lot to get through. So let's get on to how

:28:18. > :28:19.London responded, when asked that question -

:28:20. > :28:30.in or out? 60% voted of remaining in the EU in

:28:31. > :28:35.London. In some areas the remaining vote was more than 70%, the highest

:28:36. > :28:43.being Lambert at 79% in favour of remaining. Barking and three others

:28:44. > :28:50.were the only areas to support Brexit. Turnout was 69.8% despite

:28:51. > :28:57.torrential rain in parts of the city. Victoria, to bring you in now

:28:58. > :29:00.representing Kensington, the borough of which voted pretty competence of

:29:01. > :29:06.leaked to stay. How does that tally with your views, you wanted to come

:29:07. > :29:11.out. The important thing is the country as a whole has made its

:29:12. > :29:17.judgment. Of course, Kensington rather like other parts of London,

:29:18. > :29:21.the good thing about Londoners we are multicultural and that is the

:29:22. > :29:28.way we must go forward. But why did London vote to stay in? I think

:29:29. > :29:34.London is the political bubble but what this referendum proved... Out

:29:35. > :29:38.of touch or hasn't got it right No, what is difficult as we have got to

:29:39. > :29:43.start listening to what the rest of the country feel. I think they think

:29:44. > :29:46.too much goes to London, which I think is unfair, but sadly the rest

:29:47. > :29:53.of the country needs to be listened to. That was the evidence, they won,

:29:54. > :29:57.we lost in London sadly. Just a thought because we will go into it

:29:58. > :30:01.in more detail, we are stressing that London voted to stay in but

:30:02. > :30:09.four out of ten people didn't want to come out. In Hackney, 70% of my

:30:10. > :30:14.voters voted to stay in. London voted to stay in overall and it is

:30:15. > :30:20.striking to me that Margaret Hodge actually had a very big overwhelming

:30:21. > :30:24.vote for Leave in her constituency. If she knew the secret of getting

:30:25. > :30:25.working-class people to vote for Europe, she didn't practice it in

:30:26. > :30:33.her own constituency. In years to come, will 23rd June

:30:34. > :30:36.2016 come to be marked, What does the country's decision

:30:37. > :30:48.mean for the capital, Post-war London, a bomb damaged

:30:49. > :30:52.city, and imperial capital losing an empire. The city swung in the 6 s

:30:53. > :31:00.but also many spoke of managing decline, the sick man of Europe

:31:01. > :31:05.Something changed. The 21st century saw new landmarks thrown up all over

:31:06. > :31:10.the place, London's population grew again to a record high as crime

:31:11. > :31:15.fell, laws improved and the city was seriously talked about as being the

:31:16. > :31:19.greatest honour. The capital of the world. Within hours of the result

:31:20. > :31:22.coming through on Friday morning, the new Mayor of London Sadiq Khan

:31:23. > :31:29.issued a statement trying to calm nerves and saying London would

:31:30. > :31:33.continue to be the success that is today, which is reassuring but is it

:31:34. > :31:39.right? Now could we start thinking of the early 21st century as some

:31:40. > :31:43.sort of golden age of London? London certainly had a golden age, and

:31:44. > :31:48.nothing lasts for ever. If you are the top, there will always be

:31:49. > :31:51.someone wanting to knock you off. We have been aware of that for a while,

:31:52. > :31:56.particularly with creative people talking the problems of success and

:31:57. > :32:01.housing would have been one of them, the price of housing, and whether

:32:02. > :32:06.other capitals like Berlin might become more attractive. The golden

:32:07. > :32:10.age coincided with the mayoralty of Boris Johnson so he was aware of

:32:11. > :32:15.that, so I think again he has got to really prove the case now that this

:32:16. > :32:20.won't damage London. With new uncertainty over our economy, our

:32:21. > :32:27.attractiveness to foreign talent and investment, our future, some people

:32:28. > :32:34.are asking if we have reached Peak London. We have certainly reached an

:32:35. > :32:38.important moment in London's history. London's population has

:32:39. > :32:43.been growing, there has been an increasing sense of confidence about

:32:44. > :32:46.its future, but it might be the case that its population now stalls and

:32:47. > :32:52.we might see less investment in the city. We might look at this as a

:32:53. > :32:55.turning point in its history. Although the majority of Londoners

:32:56. > :33:01.voted in, Brexit may be a moment that we all come to cherish,

:33:02. > :33:03.celebrated as Boris Johnson has suggested as our independence Day.

:33:04. > :33:09.Before we get too carried away with the idea of how happy and successful

:33:10. > :33:12.London is, it is worth remembering 40% of people voted to leave the

:33:13. > :33:14.European Union, meaning in some way at least they weren't very happy

:33:15. > :33:26.with the way things were. for the Dagenham wanted to leave,

:33:27. > :33:31.barking, Bexleyheath. 1.4 million people voted to come out of the EU.

:33:32. > :33:35.They're the people who worry just a matter -- who worry just as much

:33:36. > :33:40.about the wages being suppressed, about the impossibility of getting

:33:41. > :33:45.on the housing ladder, extortionate rent, that is the reality of living

:33:46. > :33:49.in London for many people. Obviously some people, they have had cheaper

:33:50. > :33:56.nannies, cheaper builders, and the love that, what it is not just about

:33:57. > :34:01.them. Outside his Islington home, the former mayor was booed on the

:34:02. > :34:04.streets of London this Friday. His decision to campaign to leave the

:34:05. > :34:09.European Union could prove more significant for London than any

:34:10. > :34:15.decision he made while running it. History will judge to what extent

:34:16. > :34:19.that maybe for better or worse. Diane, we are told there are jitters

:34:20. > :34:24.about what happens to London's economic health. What do you feel? I

:34:25. > :34:28.think this is one of the relays -- I think this is one of the reasons my

:34:29. > :34:32.colleagues should not be playing these Westminster game. We need to

:34:33. > :34:35.come together to get the best possible Brexit arrangements and to

:34:36. > :34:40.defend the interests of London and other cities. Are you worried about

:34:41. > :34:45.this result? It is not the result I wanted. As one of your commentators

:34:46. > :34:50.just said, it is not true that only middle-class people voted. Hackney

:34:51. > :34:55.is a very middle-class borough. 70% of people voted to leave Europe We

:34:56. > :35:00.need to stop playing games and think about the people that need the

:35:01. > :35:03.political class to become for them. Victoria, you heard the warnings

:35:04. > :35:08.from London business organisations and others in the capital. You have

:35:09. > :35:12.got what you wanted? I agree that we need a period of calm. The Prime

:35:13. > :35:16.Minister is still the Prime Minister. All the other Cabinet

:35:17. > :35:21.positions are still there. We need to decide on a statesman-like

:35:22. > :35:26.fashion what is best for Britain. We have a phenomenal opportunity. It is

:35:27. > :35:38.really exciting. We are citizens of the world, not dictated to by

:35:39. > :35:40.Europe. We have to capture that opportunity. If you look at what

:35:41. > :35:42.Boris did, people that travelled around the country, they listen to

:35:43. > :35:46.what people said. We have got to bring that energy. We are in charge

:35:47. > :35:50.of our own destiny to take back control. We will no longer be

:35:51. > :35:55.dictated to by Brussels. We need to make the most of it. Why do you

:35:56. > :36:02.think the people of Havering and telling them, the five boroughs in

:36:03. > :36:07.all, voted for Leave. Because they realise that they do not have to do

:36:08. > :36:12.just what Brussels wanted. This is our opportunity. Was it a concern

:36:13. > :36:16.about immigration? Maybe in some areas of London. There are terrible

:36:17. > :36:23.pressures and the health service and schools. Housing problems, both

:36:24. > :36:27.Boris and the new mayor are trying to tackle housing is a priority

:36:28. > :36:33.Nobody can dispute that the thing that London needs most is housing.

:36:34. > :36:38.You talk about Margaret Hodge's failure to achieve a result for

:36:39. > :36:43.Remain in Dagenham. Why were those people voting to leave? They believe

:36:44. > :36:46.some of the things that the Leave campaigners told them, that there

:36:47. > :36:53.would be millions more pounds a week to spend on the NHS, that they would

:36:54. > :36:56.cut the number of migrants, and within 24 hours, prominent Leave

:36:57. > :37:02.politicians were saying, these things will not happen. So their

:37:03. > :37:05.decision is not valid? No, but they will be disillusioned by some of the

:37:06. > :37:11.promises that were made that the Leave people will not be able to

:37:12. > :37:16.deliver. Everybody said, including Michael Gove, that it will be a

:37:17. > :37:20.bumpy road. There will be short term concerns, but that is for us to

:37:21. > :37:24.dictate our own future in the longer term. Of course there will be

:37:25. > :37:28.turmoil in the next few months, but it is the long-term future, we have

:37:29. > :37:32.Regan control of our country and with good governance and cross-party

:37:33. > :37:38.working, we can get the right deal for Britain. Maybe when there are

:37:39. > :37:42.other elections in Europe, they will decide on a looser arrangement.

:37:43. > :37:45.There are all sorts of arrangements possible in the future. Jeremy

:37:46. > :37:49.Corbyn was not prepared to recognise are condemned the rate of

:37:50. > :37:56.immigration in anyway. Why should he can damage? He did not say there

:37:57. > :38:01.should be any sort of cat on it No response from politicians should be

:38:02. > :38:05.condemning immigrants. One of the low points in the campaign was Nigel

:38:06. > :38:10.Farage standing in front of a poster with hordes of brown people who were

:38:11. > :38:17.meant to be some sort of threat We need constructive debate. These are

:38:18. > :38:21.people who have come here to lead a better life. I use saying that the

:38:22. > :38:24.levels of migration are fine and that Londoners have demonstrated

:38:25. > :38:26.they are happy with that? I am saying that some of the people that

:38:27. > :38:32.some voters think our emigrants are not immigrants at all, they are

:38:33. > :38:36.asylum seekers and refugees. People like my son, the third generation

:38:37. > :38:39.with a British passport. We need a cam discussion about this.

:38:40. > :38:42.Much of the expert opinion, many of the pre-referendum warnings,

:38:43. > :38:44.about Brexit concerned the potential effect on the economy,

:38:45. > :38:46.and here in London, the impact on the City?

:38:47. > :38:48.How could the financial industry and its many associated

:38:49. > :38:59.There are many questions that now face the City.

:39:00. > :39:01.Will financial services remain in London now the EU

:39:02. > :39:06.principle of passporting, which allows them to access

:39:07. > :39:08.the European single market without restrictions, is in doubt?

:39:09. > :39:10.Foreign-exchange trading dominates the City of London.

:39:11. > :39:14.How will that trade be affected now the country has opted for Brexit,

:39:15. > :39:16.and will London, as the world's principal location for trading

:39:17. > :39:23.the euro, a $2 trillion a day market, now be under threat?

:39:24. > :39:28.And in addition to the possibility that jobs will shift other financial

:39:29. > :39:31.centres, might the City also now lose some of its most able employees

:39:32. > :39:37.With me, economist Ruth Lea, and Sam Bowman from

:39:38. > :39:47.We had you on two weeks before the decision. You thought you knew which

:39:48. > :39:52.way it was going. You were right. There are nerves in the City. What

:39:53. > :39:56.do you say? Yes, on Friday the markets were in turmoil, but that

:39:57. > :40:02.the end of the day, the stock market was only down about 3%. It had been

:40:03. > :40:06.ramped up before the referendum result because the market but we

:40:07. > :40:11.were going to stay in. It was 1 36 against the dollar, on a bit lower

:40:12. > :40:16.than in February. The gilts market had firmed, which was a vote of

:40:17. > :40:21.confidence in Britain. In a short space of time, I am not sure if the

:40:22. > :40:25.rumours have been confirmed, from JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley, rather, they

:40:26. > :40:31.would move 2000 staff to Dublin or Frankfurt. Talk of HSBC immediately

:40:32. > :40:36.moving staff to Paris. It looks like it will happen as predicted? Who

:40:37. > :40:42.knows what they are going to do I think the JP Morgan stutters

:40:43. > :40:47.speculative at the moment. As for HSBC, there is something coming in

:40:48. > :40:51.that will be akin to a passporting system. The financial services

:40:52. > :40:58.industry is concerned that will continue to. When that comes in

:40:59. > :41:05.there will be a system that will act as a quasi passport system. Just cam

:41:06. > :41:09.down. If companies are based in London, they will be allowed to

:41:10. > :41:15.passport themselves. You think that will happen. Yes. Do you think that

:41:16. > :41:20.is the case, will we see a smooth transition? Yes. Lots of the job

:41:21. > :41:25.losses are contingent on the UK leaving the single market, which

:41:26. > :41:29.probably will not happen. Lots of people from both Remain and Leave is

:41:30. > :41:33.that the best deal for the UK would be to leave the European Union but

:41:34. > :41:38.remain within the single market an arrangement that Norway and Iceland

:41:39. > :41:41.both have. That is the assumption. Between the campaign there were

:41:42. > :41:45.clear ruptures within the Leave campaign. Michael Gove said we would

:41:46. > :41:51.not necessarily be part of that single market. That is true, but we

:41:52. > :41:55.did not elect Vote Leave. We answer the question whether we should be in

:41:56. > :41:59.a rout of the European Union. We have had a campaigner who has been

:42:00. > :42:03.campaigning for decades say that we should not try to leave the

:42:04. > :42:08.movement. It might mean economic collapse. This is a global industry.

:42:09. > :42:14.Do you think that some of these big players will look at Frankfurt,

:42:15. > :42:18.Paris, Dublin, seriously? There is a threat, a risk that the position of

:42:19. > :42:21.London will come under fire? The real problem that markets are

:42:22. > :42:25.worried about is uncertainty. Right now we do not know what sort of deal

:42:26. > :42:29.we will get. What the government needs to do, what all people running

:42:30. > :42:35.for the Conservative leadership need to do, is say, this is what we want.

:42:36. > :42:39.This deal is a safe way of leaving the European Union. Not much will

:42:40. > :42:43.change in the short-term. That will cam down markets and companies

:42:44. > :42:49.looking to leave. How long does uncertainty go on? To get you to go

:42:50. > :42:55.political, uncertainties about through the next Prime Minister is,

:42:56. > :43:04.before we get onto the negotiations of Article 50? Whatever. We are in

:43:05. > :43:09.force uncertainty. There no doubt. One of the big things in the

:43:10. > :43:12.campaign has been immigration. If we do stay in the single market, we

:43:13. > :43:17.still have freedom of movement of labour,. Do you accept there is a

:43:18. > :43:23.potential for more turmoil down the line. It has only just begun. You

:43:24. > :43:28.say the Panthers rallied, but you would expect more turmoil to come?

:43:29. > :43:32.There will be uncertainty, a, but we will still be in the European Union

:43:33. > :43:37.for at least two years, if not longer. Trade will continue, and

:43:38. > :43:41.after a while, people will settle down. Then there will be a trade

:43:42. > :43:45.deal negotiated. Perhaps not a single market, we will see. Trade

:43:46. > :43:51.will continue and people will say, what was the problem? Time is moving

:43:52. > :43:53.on, and developments at Westminster, we are told.

:43:54. > :43:56.The spectre of lower house prices was invoked by both sides

:43:57. > :44:00.George Osborne warned that Brexit would devalue this precious asset.

:44:01. > :44:02.Iain Duncan Smith said it would give young people a chance

:44:03. > :44:09.The eye watering cost of property in London has made some

:44:10. > :44:12.of the capital's residents rich beyond their wildest dreams,

:44:13. > :44:14.but others fear they will never be able to buy a home.

:44:15. > :44:19.Leave campaigners argued that was in part caused

:44:20. > :44:21.by immigration to the capital far outstripping the number

:44:22. > :44:25.So with immigration likely to be lower after leaving

:44:26. > :44:29.We know the construction industry has suffered hugely

:44:30. > :44:35.I think builders are going to shut up shop until they have

:44:36. > :44:39.That could be three, six, nine months down the road.

:44:40. > :44:42.That means we have a whole period, the rest of the year, potentially,

:44:43. > :44:46.It is bad for London and the housing crisis.

:44:47. > :44:48.Housebuilders were some of the stocks worst hit by Friday's

:44:49. > :44:50.news, suggesting markets did not expect a great deal

:44:51. > :44:57.But whether house prices go up down, with the city so divided

:44:58. > :44:59.between owners and renters, there will be winners

:45:00. > :45:11.What happens to the housing market? Do we need a correction? Would you

:45:12. > :45:16.welcome that? We desperately need more housing, both borrowers and the

:45:17. > :45:20.new mayor, Sadiq Khan, are building more. Would it be a problem with

:45:21. > :45:26.house prices came down? Many people will be concerned because that is

:45:27. > :45:29.often where all their money is. Many others would jump at the chance

:45:30. > :45:33.Junuzovic house prices could very well change? People were warning

:45:34. > :45:37.that house prices could start to fall? There is still an opportunity,

:45:38. > :45:42.people are queueing up to take advantage of the opportunity to buy

:45:43. > :45:45.their own home, but we need more homes in London. That is the

:45:46. > :45:50.wonderful thing about London. We are busy economy. We are doing well It

:45:51. > :45:55.is an important area. There is so much going on in London, positive

:45:56. > :46:02.stories, but we need more homes Diane Abbott, would you welcome

:46:03. > :46:05.house prices coming down? The housing bubble is driven by people

:46:06. > :46:08.coming from overseas and people buying property from plans as an

:46:09. > :46:11.investment. There is no question that ordinary people in areas like

:46:12. > :46:16.Hackney would like to see house prices come down to make housing, or

:46:17. > :46:22.owning your own home, more affordable. If the effect of Brexit

:46:23. > :46:26.is to discourage investors from putting money into housing in

:46:27. > :46:31.London, you would welcome that? The type of thing you're talking about

:46:32. > :46:36.is people buying property, driving up prices, and holding it empty

:46:37. > :46:40.That sort of investment, using London housing as gold bricks, has

:46:41. > :46:46.not been to the benefit of ordinary Londoners. Would you welcome fewer

:46:47. > :46:52.investors from Malaysia, Singapore, whenever, putting money into London?

:46:53. > :46:57.That is the exciting thing. We are world citizens. Once this volatility

:46:58. > :47:00.has sorted itself out, and we start planning for the future together, we

:47:01. > :47:05.will go on to see international investors here. I want international

:47:06. > :47:10.investors to live here, to be part of working in it is. Nobody wants

:47:11. > :47:15.dark homes at night. We want our homes to be lived in by people who

:47:16. > :47:18.are contributing to a great British society.

:47:19. > :47:20.So, London's shown itself to be different once again.

:47:21. > :47:24.But can any effect be given to the fact that Londoners voted six

:47:25. > :47:27.to four in favour of staying within the EU and many feel it

:47:28. > :47:32.Does it help the case for a more formal independence for the capital?

:47:33. > :47:36.So, with the country voting Leave and the capital

:47:37. > :47:37.strongly for Remain, some

:47:38. > :47:39.Londoners are demanding a special relationship

:47:40. > :47:45.Currently, a petition to London mayor Sadiq Khan,

:47:46. > :47:49.entitled "declare London independent from the UK and apply to join

:47:50. > :47:55.If it is good enough for Scotland with a population of 5

:47:56. > :47:57.million, then London, with a population of 8.7

:47:58. > :47:58.million, has to consider it

:47:59. > :48:02.If we were a member of the EU, London would be the 15th largest

:48:03. > :48:06.member, ahead of countries like Denmark and Austria.

:48:07. > :48:08.Scotland was the only area to vote more strongly

:48:09. > :48:11.Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has already spoken

:48:12. > :48:12.to London mayor Sadiq Khan about

:48:13. > :48:29.brokering a special deal for both regions with the EU.

:48:30. > :48:31.Joining me to consider London devolution, Tony Travers,

:48:32. > :48:34.from the London School of Economics; and political analyst

:48:35. > :48:43.You were talking about this before the referendum result, but is

:48:44. > :48:46.anything more than an academic debate that London becomes more

:48:47. > :48:52.independent or breaks away from the rest of the country? I think it

:48:53. > :48:57.tells us yet again that London is very different to the rest of the UK

:48:58. > :49:01.in so many ways. Its population mix is different, it is younger and it

:49:02. > :49:06.has voted differently in this referendum. The question now will be

:49:07. > :49:11.raised inevitably, does this provide an argument for greater separation

:49:12. > :49:14.and devolution of power to London in the way the Scots, Welsh and

:49:15. > :49:18.Northern Irish have, and by the way for other parts of England because

:49:19. > :49:22.at the bottom, the many things that will have to be unravelled about

:49:23. > :49:25.what has happened, at the bottom of it, people feel disconnected from

:49:26. > :49:28.politics and therefore more decisions need to be made in the

:49:29. > :49:35.north about the north, and in London about London. It mentions other

:49:36. > :49:43.areas but is London the same as Wales and Scotland? I think we

:49:44. > :49:48.should avoid the word independence because it will fragment us even

:49:49. > :49:53.more. I pick up on Sarah Sand's comment. London has been successful

:49:54. > :49:58.since the mid-90s, not Boris Johnson. At a time when we didn t go

:49:59. > :50:04.into the single currency, people said it would suffer and it hasn't.

:50:05. > :50:07.That says to me how resilient the city is, and its resilience will be

:50:08. > :50:12.tested now but I remain confident this city will continue to succeed,

:50:13. > :50:18.and certainly if we can get more devolution with London. What would

:50:19. > :50:23.you like to see? Is it just financial, tax-raising power? Is

:50:24. > :50:29.tax-raising powers the key thing to make the city self-sufficient?

:50:30. > :50:34.Tony's report set out more tax retention powers, particularly

:50:35. > :50:39.around property, but as Sadiq Khan's manifesto shows, is pitching for

:50:40. > :50:43.further devolution on health, higher education, further education, and it

:50:44. > :50:47.would be interesting to see if the Government would move further on

:50:48. > :50:55.that. People want to feel the decision-making is made by people

:50:56. > :51:00.close to them. Would that lead to looking again at this kind of tax

:51:01. > :51:04.export, at how much more is being raised in London and gets spent on

:51:05. > :51:09.its infrastructure? In fact the money that's being used to export

:51:10. > :51:16.and subsidise the rest of the country. It is true, there is well

:51:17. > :51:19.below the political water line, because London has more people on

:51:20. > :51:28.higher incomes and companies paying tax here, it does export tax to the

:51:29. > :51:32.rest of the UK. There is no doubt less is spent in London that is

:51:33. > :51:35.raised in tax so London could float off as it were but nobody is

:51:36. > :51:40.pretending that should happen. But the question is whether Londoners

:51:41. > :51:44.should have more control, at least over the public spending in the

:51:45. > :51:49.city, given that Londoners just have a different view. MPs in London have

:51:50. > :51:58.a different view about how money should be used than the average MP

:51:59. > :52:02.in the country. That I think has to be recognised but not only in

:52:03. > :52:05.London. Sadiq Khan has been asking for a place at the table in

:52:06. > :52:09.discussions of getting into the single market and there is an

:52:10. > :52:16.all-party Parliamentary group too representing London. What kind of

:52:17. > :52:20.day does London want, deserve here? The Mayor of London should certainly

:52:21. > :52:24.have a place at the table because our relationship with Europe is a

:52:25. > :52:28.key thing in our economy. Irrespective of the European

:52:29. > :52:31.referendum, I have always said we should have more powers for London.

:52:32. > :52:38.We should have the powers of Manchester is being offered over

:52:39. > :52:42.health and social care. What Tony Travers said is that we should be

:52:43. > :52:45.allowed to keep some of our business rate and I have long believed it has

:52:46. > :53:04.nothing to do with the European referendum. Victoria Borwick, you

:53:05. > :53:08.are nodding your head, you agree? They had seen their wage rates

:53:09. > :53:12.artificially held down because unemployment figures were low. They

:53:13. > :53:16.have seen the detrimental effects of the EU but of course it made the

:53:17. > :53:20.Government lazy. It didn't have to listen to them because they always

:53:21. > :53:29.have low unemployment. An online petition started calling for London

:53:30. > :53:33.independence, tongue in cheek, but it has over 100,000 signatures now.

:53:34. > :53:40.Any dangers of resentment? A lot of people saying that people who voted

:53:41. > :53:44.Leave didn't understand or look at the arguments in enough detail. In

:53:45. > :53:50.London we are graduates, we understand these things. In a

:53:51. > :54:00.borough like acne, my people voted to stay in Europe. -- Hackney. We

:54:01. > :54:04.have friends and family in other parts of the country. London doesn't

:54:05. > :54:10.want to become a city state but we want the powers offered to cities

:54:11. > :54:18.like Manchester. We want to look at the health model in Manchester,

:54:19. > :54:22.build our education... I have had an equal number of my clients and other

:54:23. > :54:26.people saying there are opportunities now, particularly for

:54:27. > :54:30.developers. The focus on housing is fine but underneath that there is

:54:31. > :54:35.major inward investment decisions continually being made as to

:54:36. > :54:42.companies coming here and house buying on large stretches of land.

:54:43. > :54:46.Do you think Sadiq Khan will have a formal say in these negotiations? I

:54:47. > :54:51.think he has got to. The London economy is bigger than Scotland

:54:52. > :54:58.Wales and Northern Ireland's economy added together. OK, thank you very

:54:59. > :55:05.much indeed. Andrew, back to you. Welcome back, in a moment we'll look

:55:06. > :55:20.ahead to what's going to be Let's give a look at what we have

:55:21. > :55:26.behind us. The world's press and cameras are here. This is the back

:55:27. > :55:30.short of us, where we are along with the other networks and international

:55:31. > :55:34.networks following the story as it unravels. It is turning out to be

:55:35. > :55:40.sunny and warm day here in Westminster. Those who didn't watch

:55:41. > :55:45.the Sunday Politics in East Midlands, I can tell you that Vernon

:55:46. > :55:48.Coker, the Northern Ireland Shadow Minister, has said he is positioning

:55:49. > :55:54.his position in the Shadow Cabinet as well, as well as the shadow

:55:55. > :55:58.Scottish secretary Iain Murray. In a moment we will be looking ahead to a

:55:59. > :56:07.busy week in politics but first let's go to Jo. As you said, it is

:56:08. > :56:11.all going on, we have a vote of no-confidence in Jeremy Corbyn,

:56:12. > :56:19.Shadow Cabinet resignations with more expected later today, and with

:56:20. > :56:25.any at all the grass movement Momentum will be very important

:56:26. > :56:29.With me now is James Schneider from that group, joined by Stephen

:56:30. > :56:37.Kinnock, who backs that no-confidence motion. What is wrong

:56:38. > :56:40.with Jeremy Corbyn's leadership In terms of accountability it was a

:56:41. > :56:44.half-hearted and lacklustre campaign, and led to the wrong

:56:45. > :56:48.result for the people we are elected to represent. There is a real

:56:49. > :56:52.important issue of capability as well. The results of the referendum

:56:53. > :56:56.has completely changed British politics. The next free, five, ten

:56:57. > :57:01.years will be about the Brexit negotiations. We need a negotiating

:57:02. > :57:05.team where the Leader of the Opposition plays a key role, that

:57:06. > :57:09.means he has to be a negotiator someone who can roll up their

:57:10. > :57:13.sleeves and work to secure the best possible deal for the British

:57:14. > :57:17.people. Whilst I have a huge amount of respect for Jeremy as a

:57:18. > :57:23.politician, he's not a negotiator. I don't think he has the skills or

:57:24. > :57:27.experience we need. It is over, we have had Shadow Cabinet

:57:28. > :57:33.resignations, it has been confirmed Iain Murray will resign, the Labour

:57:34. > :57:37.Party doesn't have any MPs who could serve in Scotland in that Shadow

:57:38. > :57:43.Cabinet, he has got to go. He doesn't have to go at all. The

:57:44. > :57:47.membership is still behind him. More importantly, the country cannot

:57:48. > :57:51.afford for us to be having this divisive civil war right now.

:57:52. > :57:56.Politics has changed, we are in this crisis period, and I think we will

:57:57. > :57:59.be looked on very badly by the electorate for having spent the next

:58:00. > :58:03.three months talking about ourselves, fighting with ourselves,

:58:04. > :58:07.rather than putting together a strong case for how we can get

:58:08. > :58:13.something decent out of this Brexit. But how does he go on from here If

:58:14. > :58:18.you doesn't have the support, he cannot fill those posts. Of course

:58:19. > :58:25.it can go on. People will fill those positions. Diane Abbott, a member of

:58:26. > :58:29.the Shadow Cabinet, very supportive of Jeremy Corbyn, has just said that

:58:30. > :58:35.no-confidence motion is nonsense really. It has no status and you

:58:36. > :58:38.should go on from another party Of course it will be up to Jeremy to

:58:39. > :58:43.decide whether he wants to stand again. The key point about the

:58:44. > :58:48.mandate is that it is true he got a thumping mandate but that was then

:58:49. > :58:51.and this is now. What I think is very important is the membership

:58:52. > :58:55.understands we are going to have a general election before the end of

:58:56. > :59:00.this year. The new Tory leader will have to seek a fresh mandate, and

:59:01. > :59:07.the mandate for the leader 's pre-referendum is completely

:59:08. > :59:10.different to the post referendum. That is completely untrue. If you

:59:11. > :59:14.look at the response from the grass-roots to this corner of

:59:15. > :59:18.no-confidence, there is a petition calling for no-confidence which has

:59:19. > :59:27.maybe 1000 people have signed it online. Many more of called for a

:59:28. > :59:31.vote of confidence for him. We cannot afford to have this silly

:59:32. > :59:35.infighting. Right now, we should be talking about what offer we will

:59:36. > :59:40.make to those voters that have left Labour, those voters that voted for

:59:41. > :59:45.Brexit. What felt we will make and how to play a constructive role in

:59:46. > :59:49.this exit negotiation. Having a three-month long fight, which Jeremy

:59:50. > :59:54.Corbyn will win, is not the way to do it. I hope the membership will

:59:55. > :59:58.understand that the world has completely changed since the

:59:59. > :00:01.Thursday result, and that's why the job description for the leader of

:00:02. > :00:05.the Labour Party has completely changed. The motion of no confidence

:00:06. > :00:09.has been put in motion so the idea that we are not now going to have

:00:10. > :00:14.this divisive debates, I'm afraid it is happening so let's wake up, smell

:00:15. > :00:18.the coffee and move on. But what about the point that Jeremy Corbyn

:00:19. > :00:23.will win another leadership contest, if the membership is still very much

:00:24. > :00:28.behind him he will plead again. That is the debate we must have. I hope

:00:29. > :00:32.we can refrain so the membership can see we need a different job

:00:33. > :00:39.description. Who could do this better than Jeremy Corbyn? Someone

:00:40. > :00:43.who is used to being in a room where people disagree with him. Jeremy

:00:44. > :00:47.Corbyn is used to being part of rallies where everybody agrees with

:00:48. > :00:51.him. But you have to have an idea. Because of the Labour leadership

:00:52. > :00:57.rules, if you want to have a new leader in place, who will it be You

:00:58. > :01:02.have to rally round someone. You are not going to draw me on putting

:01:03. > :01:05.names out there. We have to get candidates to set out their stall

:01:06. > :01:10.but they have to be basing their stall on the new job description. In

:01:11. > :01:17.a way Jeremy Corbyn lost the referendum, he was not on the site

:01:18. > :01:27.to leave the EU. Neither was I. I was pro-quote-macro. So was I, we

:01:28. > :01:32.lost. In the same way it would be silly to blame you for the fact that

:01:33. > :01:37.something like 60% of people in your constituency voted for Leave, that

:01:38. > :01:41.is not the right response. This debate is going to continue whether

:01:42. > :01:48.I am going to stop it or not but that is it from us here. Back to

:01:49. > :01:57.you, Andrew. Just to confirm that Iain Murray has resigned live

:01:58. > :02:01.on-air. We have our panel back here for the final few moments on our

:02:02. > :02:07.network broadcast. Just to finish off on what has happened, the Labour

:02:08. > :02:13.Party has Tom Watson stuck in the mud in Glastonbury but probably on

:02:14. > :02:19.his way back now, deputy leader Old Labour, what will his role be? I can

:02:20. > :02:27.see a way in which he presents himself as a stability candidate. At

:02:28. > :02:32.the same election Jeremy Corbyn won convincingly, so did Tom Watson and

:02:33. > :02:39.he has his own support base. He was involved in another Labour coup you

:02:40. > :02:44.remember some time ago. With Gordon Brown. I think he would come out of

:02:45. > :02:55.this quite well. We were talking earlier about a lame duck

:02:56. > :02:59.government, almost most important is the Chancellor that has gone

:03:00. > :03:03.missing. Doesn't George Osborne given the potential short-term

:03:04. > :03:09.impact on the markets, have to say something?

:03:10. > :03:16.In a certain these same as the Governor of the Bank of England did.

:03:17. > :03:19.What I have heard, he has been talking to financial institutions.

:03:20. > :03:23.The government can do enough to prevent absolutely -- absolute

:03:24. > :03:28.pandemonium in either the equity markets or the currency markets

:03:29. > :03:32.rather than the Guild markets. Can they do enough to prevent a real

:03:33. > :03:36.economy downturn in either this quarter or the next quarter. I think

:03:37. > :03:40.it is out of their hands. There might be a general election during a

:03:41. > :03:47.recession, relatively soon. I cannot imagine the last time that happened

:03:48. > :03:50.in this country. The Tories have got to choose a new leader to be Prime

:03:51. > :03:55.Minister. The Prime Minister has got to give a rough idea of how he's

:03:56. > :04:00.going to negotiate. Or she. I think in this case, probably not. We will

:04:01. > :04:05.see. How they are going to negotiate out of the EU. Should they call an

:04:06. > :04:10.election first to get a mandate for that? I think this is a red herring.

:04:11. > :04:15.I cannot see why any new arrival at Number 10 would want to take that

:04:16. > :04:21.risk. Remember how wafer thin the Tory majority is already. This is an

:04:22. > :04:25.incredibly febrile atmosphere. It feels too unpredictable, I would

:04:26. > :04:30.have thought, for any new prime ministers to take that risk. Too big

:04:31. > :04:35.a risk? Absolutely. Even if the Labour Party is still in chaos? If

:04:36. > :04:39.the Labour Party brings in a leader who is less alienating to large

:04:40. > :04:43.parts of the country, it will focus the minds of the Conservatives. The

:04:44. > :04:47.big advantage at the Conservatives have is the probably have the money

:04:48. > :04:53.to fight another election, Labour do not. Would a new leader of the

:04:54. > :04:58.Conservative Party, if there is still running gorilla war against

:04:59. > :05:02.Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, would they be tempted to call an election

:05:03. > :05:07.or would it be too big a risk? When there is a change of Prime Minister,

:05:08. > :05:10.voters quite like the idea they should have a say. Lots of people in

:05:11. > :05:16.Westminster have been influenced by what happened to Gordon Brown in

:05:17. > :05:21.2007. He took over without a general election and always seemed to lack

:05:22. > :05:28.legitimacy as a result. He did not even have an internal competitive

:05:29. > :05:31.Labour Party. That is different Boris Johnson will have to go

:05:32. > :05:36.through quite a slog against a serious rival to get that job, which

:05:37. > :05:42.lends a certain degree of legitimacy, so it is not incumbent

:05:43. > :05:45.on him or her to call an election. If they called an election and

:05:46. > :05:50.Jeremy Corbyn was leader, you would expect them to win. That is why

:05:51. > :05:55.Labour are going out of their way to install a more credible leader,

:05:56. > :06:02.before that happens. We cannot have an election in November. We will

:06:03. > :06:08.see. Stay tuned to the news channel for updates throughout the day, and

:06:09. > :06:12.tonight on BBC One, at 6:30pm, there is a Question Time special. The

:06:13. > :06:15.Daily Politics tomorrow is on at the earlier time of 11 o'clock.

:06:16. > :06:21.Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.