03/07/2016

:00:36. > :00:43.Five Tory candidates square up to become Prime Minister,

:00:44. > :00:45.after a Leave vote in the referendum.

:00:46. > :00:52.Mr Corbyn, surely you can stop and spare 30 seconds

:00:53. > :00:55.to talk to the media, this is embarassing.

:00:56. > :00:59.He's lost a vote of no confidence and most of his Shadow Cabinet

:01:00. > :01:07.When will one of his rebellious MPs make a move against him?

:01:08. > :01:08.In London, another Heathrow delay -

:01:09. > :01:11.but the man who recommended expansion says he hopes

:01:12. > :01:23.the new prime minister will decide in the national interest.

:01:24. > :01:26.And with me, three political journalists, key lieutenants

:01:27. > :01:30.who have pledged unflinching loyalty to the programme, so I'm expecting

:01:31. > :01:36.them to jump ship to ITV for Peston's Croissants any moment -

:01:37. > :01:40.Helen Lewis, Tom Newton Dunn and Isabel Oakeshott.

:01:41. > :01:43.So after a brutal week in Tory politics, the party's leadership

:01:44. > :01:45.candidates are all out making their pitch for the top job

:01:46. > :01:51.Conservative MPs get to whittle a shortlist of five down to two

:01:52. > :01:55.who will then face a ballot of the party's wider membership

:01:56. > :02:01.This is what we've heard from them so far this morning.

:02:02. > :02:08.We need to seize the opportunity. It's not just about leaving the EU,

:02:09. > :02:12.but giving certainty to businesses, saying to the world we are open for

:02:13. > :02:16.business, lets get some free trade agreement started as soon as we can.

:02:17. > :02:21.It's about saying to young people, we are sorting out the issues around

:02:22. > :02:24.competition from EU migrants for your jobs. Businesses need to

:02:25. > :02:28.upscale British workers. We just need to get on with it. We need to

:02:29. > :02:36.establish our own negotiating position. Once we hit Article 5 ,

:02:37. > :02:40.once we invoke that, the process at the EU starts and could take up to

:02:41. > :02:45.two years. What is important is that we get the right deal, a deal which

:02:46. > :02:49.is about controlling free movement, but is also about ensuring we have

:02:50. > :02:54.the best deal in trading goods and services. I didn't want to be in

:02:55. > :02:57.this position. If I had wanted to be leader, if my sole ambition was

:02:58. > :03:01.place and position, if I just wanted the glory, I would have declared my

:03:02. > :03:06.candidacy last week. Many friends urged me to do so. I put my own

:03:07. > :03:10.ambition to one side and did what I thought was right for the country.

:03:11. > :03:12.Now I am entering this race because I think the next leader of the

:03:13. > :03:16.country needs to be someone who believes heart and soul that Britain

:03:17. > :03:20.should be outside the European Union. We are all committed to

:03:21. > :03:26.taking Britain out of the European Union. We all stood on the manifesto

:03:27. > :03:31.to abide by the outcome of the referendum. We all share a

:03:32. > :03:35.commitment to taking Britain out of the European Union. What gains trust

:03:36. > :03:40.is showing now that we have a clearer idea for how we will do that

:03:41. > :03:43.and what our principles will be that will guide the exit.

:03:44. > :03:45.Four of the candidates there, and we'll be talking

:03:46. > :03:50.to Liam Fox in a moment, but first, let's talk to my panel.

:03:51. > :03:56.Isabel, we sum up this morning and see if you agree. Theresa May

:03:57. > :03:59.consolidated her frontrunner status. Andrea Leadsom performed in a way

:04:00. > :04:04.that suggested she wasn't quite ready for prime time. And Michael

:04:05. > :04:08.Gove cannot escape the manner in which he has become a candidate I

:04:09. > :04:14.think that is fair. Certainly in relation to Michael Gove, what we

:04:15. > :04:17.have seen this morning is him trying to persuade the nation that the way

:04:18. > :04:21.he behaved was reasonable and had nothing to do with his personal

:04:22. > :04:25.ambition. The question is not whether it was reasonable or to do

:04:26. > :04:30.with his ambition, but whether it was an honourable way to behave And

:04:31. > :04:34.most of us who know Michael would have thought until now that he is an

:04:35. > :04:38.honourable person, a man of principle. But he can't get away

:04:39. > :04:43.from the fact of the manner in which he did it, at the last possible

:04:44. > :04:47.moment, which was guaranteed to create a very ugly situation for

:04:48. > :04:50.Boris Johnson. And this morning instead of wanting to try and talk

:04:51. > :04:54.about his vision for Britain and what he would do if he was Prime

:04:55. > :05:00.Minister and so on, again and again, he had to defend his behaviour over

:05:01. > :05:05.last weekend and through the week. Absolutely. Whether he likes it or

:05:06. > :05:08.not, he is now the Ed Miliband of the Conservative Party. That is the

:05:09. > :05:14.narrative. Ed Miliband killed his brother David. He killed his brother

:05:15. > :05:22.in arms, Boris Johnson. Michael Gove is an interesting candidate, very

:05:23. > :05:26.different to Theresa May, the radical entry. But he has got dead

:05:27. > :05:32.bodies piling up behind him. David Cameron, the European Union and now

:05:33. > :05:40.Boris Johnson. Even George Osborne was his friend. And Aberdeen Grammar

:05:41. > :05:48.schoolboy gets hat-trick of Bullingdon boys, takes all three

:05:49. > :05:56.out. It is an extraordinary record. But I don't see how he can move away

:05:57. > :06:00.from that. The person who really has to be worried now is Andrea Leadsom.

:06:01. > :06:04.She is target number one. The one thing Michael Gove has proved is

:06:05. > :06:08.that he's good at taking people s legs from underneath them. He is

:06:09. > :06:15.competing with Andrea Leadsom for crown of the truly 'em champion

:06:16. > :06:21.That is Michael Gove's pitch -- the true Leave champion. She got into

:06:22. > :06:26.trouble this morning on tax returns. Well, there had been rumbling issue

:06:27. > :06:29.with Andrea Leadsom offshore trusts. This is not new. There is also a

:06:30. > :06:33.question mark over what she may or may not have said a couple of years

:06:34. > :06:37.ago about whether she really thinks Brexit is a good idea. I disagree

:06:38. > :06:42.with the negative assessment of Andrea Leadsom. I think she is an

:06:43. > :06:46.impressive person and she does have a good chance, because she can cast

:06:47. > :06:50.herself as a true Brexiteer who was undamaged like Michael Gove by the

:06:51. > :06:55.events of last week. It would have to be her or Michael Gove as a

:06:56. > :07:01.Brexiteer. Don't underestimate the effort to get Michael Gove getting

:07:02. > :07:07.into the last two. There is talk of Theresa May as such a frontrunner in

:07:08. > :07:11.the MPP is -- in the MPP collections that it may not go to the country.

:07:12. > :07:18.That would be a stretch, but if it is two Remainers, Theresa May and

:07:19. > :07:24.Stephen Crabb, but Theresa May is way ahead, it may not go to the

:07:25. > :07:28.country. But if it is a Remainer, May and a Brexiteer, Andrea Leadsom

:07:29. > :07:33.or Michael Gove, it has to go to the Tory party. That is exactly the

:07:34. > :07:38.dynamic that will play out in the next 12 days among the Tories in the

:07:39. > :07:41.Commons. What you have just done, I'm afraid, is committed to mistake

:07:42. > :07:46.that Stephen Crabb only this morning has said that everyone needs to move

:07:47. > :07:52.on from, which is between leavers and Remainers in the Tory party It

:07:53. > :07:58.serves the likes of Michael Gove and Andrea Leadsom well to say there are

:07:59. > :08:04.two caps. If Tory MPs can move on quickly from the great divide, you

:08:05. > :08:07.could easily see two Remainers and the Theresa coronation. If they

:08:08. > :08:13.can't and the might of you ask questions like that, I cannot see

:08:14. > :08:15.anything but Theresa May and Michael Gove or Andrea Leadsom on the final

:08:16. > :08:21.ticket, because the Tory Parliamentary party will not allow

:08:22. > :08:26.others. If you think Tory MPs are going to move on for the issue that

:08:27. > :08:30.presided over them for the last generation, I have a bridge to sell

:08:31. > :08:35.you. I know, but the problem is that we voted for Brexit, not any

:08:36. > :08:41.particular form of it. It will come down to the issue of freedom of

:08:42. > :08:45.movement and what type Brexit you are offering. The original Leavers

:08:46. > :08:52.will probably offer a stronger version of Brexit than the other

:08:53. > :08:57.side. Who is going to win? Looks like Theresa May. Let me say Andrea

:08:58. > :09:01.Leadsom to be excited. Boringly Theresa May. And you are just being

:09:02. > :09:04.contrarian. We shall see. A long way to go.

:09:05. > :09:06.Now, Liam Fox is the only candidate to have stood

:09:07. > :09:09.Here he is, launching his bid on Thursday.

:09:10. > :09:12.If we are to heal the divisions created by the referendum,

:09:13. > :09:14.we must fully implement the instruction given to us

:09:15. > :09:21.for membership of the single market

:09:22. > :09:25.if it entails the movement of people.

:09:26. > :09:31.Those who voted to leave the EU would regard it as a betrayal,

:09:32. > :09:48.Everybody thinks you will come fifth on Tuesday. You would be the first

:09:49. > :09:52.to be knocked out, so why are you standing? Well, we will see what the

:09:53. > :09:58.result is. If you remember 2005 they were all wrong then. The reason

:09:59. > :10:03.I am in this is because we need to take the argument on from the

:10:04. > :10:06.referendum to how we take Britain out of the European Union. We also

:10:07. > :10:10.have to look at other issues. We are not in this leadership race in

:10:11. > :10:14.netting a Leader of the Opposition, which is what we have done before.

:10:15. > :10:17.Someone does not have four years to play themselves in. The day after

:10:18. > :10:22.this election, someone will be difficult from Mr Putin and I will

:10:23. > :10:26.have to make an assessment on our nuclear deterrence. It is a lot more

:10:27. > :10:31.than just a rerun of the European argument. We have to get this into

:10:32. > :10:35.perspective. It is not a parlour game we are playing, not an

:10:36. > :10:40.extension of the European Union This is a government having to make

:10:41. > :10:45.serious decisions in a dangerous world. How many Tory MPs are backing

:10:46. > :10:50.you? I am not saying, because it only helps everybody else.

:10:51. > :10:58.Tactically, it makes sense to keep your powder dry. In double figures's

:10:59. > :11:02.oh, yes. But still in fifth place. I don't know what the other numbers

:11:03. > :11:06.will be. This is different from the previous campaign I stood in,

:11:07. > :11:09.because in that one, by this point, most people had committed. There is

:11:10. > :11:15.a large number of uncommitted people in this race. Therefore, the most

:11:16. > :11:23.important event will be the party has things tomorrow night. There are

:11:24. > :11:27.three Leavers running. What do you bring to the contest that Andrea

:11:28. > :11:32.Leadsom and Michael Gove don't? I have been in the Foreign Office I

:11:33. > :11:41.understand how European mechanics operates. We are now seeing the road

:11:42. > :11:45.ahead. People have been asking, how do you set the ground rules before

:11:46. > :11:48.you trigger article 50? This week, we have seen a differentiation

:11:49. > :11:52.between the position of the commission, which is hard line, and

:11:53. > :11:55.a softer approach from our elected colleagues across the European

:11:56. > :12:00.Union. For example, on Newsnight the other night, the European trade

:12:01. > :12:03.Commissioner said we couldn't have any negotiations on trade with

:12:04. > :12:06.Britain until we were outside the EU. She was asked, wouldn't that be

:12:07. > :12:11.detrimental to every economy in Europe? And she said yes. That is a

:12:12. > :12:15.crazy position and it tells you how stupid the approach of the

:12:16. > :12:19.commission is. So we have to talk to our German and French colleagues who

:12:20. > :12:23.have elections next year, and we have to say to them, let's talk

:12:24. > :12:30.about what would be in our mutual interests. Before triggering Article

:12:31. > :12:35.50. Yes, and say to them, what sort of flexibility do we have? What can

:12:36. > :12:39.we do in our mutual interests? You have elections next year and you

:12:40. > :12:46.want to sell to the Germans and the French and idea of how to maintain

:12:47. > :12:49.prosperity. At the moment, they are saying no informal talks. It is true

:12:50. > :12:52.that Mrs Merkel is sounding more friendly than the commission or even

:12:53. > :12:59.President Hollande, but at the moment, there are no talks. You must

:13:00. > :13:03.expect that to change? I do expect it to change once we have a new

:13:04. > :13:07.Prime Minister. We want to implement the view of the British people. I

:13:08. > :13:12.don't want a deal that includes anything to do with free movement.

:13:13. > :13:16.That was rejected by the public So we have to say to the European

:13:17. > :13:21.Parliament, this is the position we have all stop how do we do that in a

:13:22. > :13:24.way that doesn't cause you greater inconvenience than necessary? But

:13:25. > :13:29.there will be a trade-off between an element of free movement, but less

:13:30. > :13:36.than we have at the moment, and a certain access to the single market,

:13:37. > :13:40.but less than we have at the moment? For example, whether you have quotas

:13:41. > :13:46.in turns of job visas you are going to give, that is something. If we

:13:47. > :13:49.had quotas for Europeans coming here, they undoubtedly will have

:13:50. > :13:56.quotas for us going there. It will have to be reciprocal. It is one of

:13:57. > :14:01.the things we will have to understand. If we introduce

:14:02. > :14:04.restrictions on work permits, settlement and work will be

:14:05. > :14:09.restricted, but not travel, and we have to expect moves in the other

:14:10. > :14:13.direction. Is it true that if Theresa May had promised to make you

:14:14. > :14:18.her Foreign Secretary, you would not be running? I would not have

:14:19. > :14:21.accepted any promise. Anybody who makes you a promise in a race like

:14:22. > :14:27.this doesn't deserve to get to the top. Was a matter for discussion

:14:28. > :14:33.between your people and her people? No. I have had discussions with

:14:34. > :14:36.Stephen Crabb and Andrea Leadsom is a friend, and I have spoken to

:14:37. > :14:41.Theresa, but I would not make or accept any offer, because any Prime

:14:42. > :14:47.Minister must keep themselves free from promises to bring in the

:14:48. > :14:51.Cabinet they require. And with a small parliamentary majority and a

:14:52. > :14:54.very big split in the party ideologically over what happened in

:14:55. > :14:57.the European Union, whoever wins will have to make a lot of

:14:58. > :14:58.compromises across a lot of the party if we are to have an effective

:14:59. > :15:11.government. What's most important quality for

:15:12. > :15:16.the next Prime Minister, to be a Brexiteer or to have experience

:15:17. > :15:24.They are both important. Experience matters. It is not something... So

:15:25. > :15:33.the Remainer would be possible? It doesn't have to be a Brexiteer? It

:15:34. > :15:39.is possible to be a Remainer, but I have to view it in this way, I think

:15:40. > :15:43.the honest critique of this is that how do our European partners see it?

:15:44. > :15:47.If you were negotiating with Britain, would you be more likely to

:15:48. > :15:51.take seriously somebody who had campaigned to leave the European

:15:52. > :15:58.Union or someone who chose to remain? If you are out after

:15:59. > :16:03.Tuesday, who will you back? Naturally you don't even expect me

:16:04. > :16:13.to answer hypothetical question like that? I do. Hope springs eternal,

:16:14. > :16:19.but all the candidates have their strengths and weaknesses. So which

:16:20. > :16:23.one? If that were to happen, and I'm not expecting it to happen on

:16:24. > :16:27.Tuesday, I would come to a decision some time after that and make it

:16:28. > :16:35.known in the usual way. You don t know yet? If I know I'm not going to

:16:36. > :16:39.tell you. At the moment Theresa May is the front runner. If they were to

:16:40. > :16:44.emerge from the Parliamentary contest with a clear majority, an

:16:45. > :16:48.overall majority among MPs, and polls suggesting a clear majority

:16:49. > :16:54.among the party faithful in the country, should it still go to the

:16:55. > :16:59.country? Under our rules, it should still go to the country and I think

:17:00. > :17:03.the Parliamentary party... The Conservative Party in the country

:17:04. > :17:08.would expect there to be a contest. That might differ, if there were to

:17:09. > :17:12.be a huge an overall majority in parliament for any one candidate, I

:17:13. > :17:15.think MPs would say what would happen then if the Parliamentary

:17:16. > :17:20.party had a different view from the party and the country, what would it

:17:21. > :17:24.mean for the authority of the Prime Minister? It is a hypothetical, but

:17:25. > :17:29.it is an important question we will have to think about in the next 12

:17:30. > :17:34.days. Very well, a lot can happen in the next 12 days, because not much

:17:35. > :17:37.has happened in the last 12 days! Liam Fox, thank you.

:17:38. > :17:38.Now, as the Tories descended into post-referendum turmoil,

:17:39. > :17:40.the stand-off continues in the Labour Party

:17:41. > :17:43.with rebellious MPs - the bulk of the parliamentary party

:17:44. > :17:45.expressing no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn, but yet to put up

:17:46. > :17:49.Mark Lobel has been following the twists and turns

:17:50. > :18:03.I think people may look back on this week as the week

:18:04. > :18:06.when the Labour Party committed suicide.

:18:07. > :18:08.He's a good and decent man, but he is not a leader,

:18:09. > :18:13.The Labour Party are being ripped apart...

:18:14. > :18:31.sacked his Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn,

:18:32. > :18:33.he received over 30 Shadow Cabinet and ministerial resignations

:18:34. > :18:35.ahead of this EU referendum debate.

:18:36. > :18:40.and the country will thank neither the benches in front of me

:18:41. > :18:45.in internal manoeuvring at this time.

:18:46. > :18:52.In response, his supporters amassed outside Parliament.

:18:53. > :18:56.Don't let those people who wish us ill divide us.

:18:57. > :19:00.at a meeting with his party behind closed doors

:19:01. > :19:02.on the eve of a no-confidence vote

:19:03. > :19:08.his battle with his own colleagues worsened.

:19:09. > :19:10.It was overwhelmingly dignified for most of the meeting,

:19:11. > :19:14.where people were pleading with Jeremy saying,

:19:15. > :19:17."I like you, you've always been my friend.

:19:18. > :19:20.I appreciate what you've tried to do,

:19:21. > :19:27.but this is tearing the Labour Party apart".

:19:28. > :19:30.With 50 vacant positions to fill, Jeremy Corbyn reshuffled his pack

:19:31. > :19:40.He was visibly uncomfortable with the arrangement.

:19:41. > :19:42.And between takes, a critic of his leadership,

:19:43. > :19:47.his deputy Tom Watson, had left the room.

:19:48. > :19:51.I think that Seamus Milne, Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell

:19:52. > :19:58.and Diane Abbott, they have the mentality of people in a bunker.

:19:59. > :20:02.The whole of the rest of the world is against them.

:20:03. > :20:06.They are interested in the plight of people on Pacific islands.

:20:07. > :20:09.They are interested in the Falklands.

:20:10. > :20:12.They are interested in a whole range of things like that.

:20:13. > :20:15.But they are not interested and have very little understanding

:20:16. > :20:22.of the processes of Westminster politics.

:20:23. > :20:25.On Wednesday, in the first PMQs since Brexit,

:20:26. > :20:29.the Prime Minister surprised many with this intervention.

:20:30. > :20:37.Well, the heavens have certainly opened on Jeremy Corbyn's parade.

:20:38. > :20:42.Ed Miliband, once tipped to join his cabinet after the referendum,

:20:43. > :20:48.I did find one fan of Jeremy Corbyn's,

:20:49. > :20:56.It's obviously a highly emotional subject, this,

:20:57. > :21:01.On Thursday morning, it looked like a challenger

:21:02. > :21:05.Are you going to stand for the leadership?

:21:06. > :21:09.I'll be saying something later today.

:21:10. > :21:12.It's 2.35 here in Westminster this Thursday afternoon, and rumours

:21:13. > :21:16.We understand that four of Jeremy Corbyn's closest allies,

:21:17. > :21:19.four MPs he'd just recently put into his new Shadow Cabinet,

:21:20. > :21:21.have gone into his office and are trying

:21:22. > :21:29.As it happened, they weren't invited in.

:21:30. > :21:32.Our source said the Shadow Cabinet ministers were left exasperated

:21:33. > :21:33.and frustrated, unable to deliver their suggested

:21:34. > :21:41.retirement plan for Mr Corbyn to the man himself.

:21:42. > :21:50.no challenge to Jeremy Corbyn's leadership emerged.

:21:51. > :21:54.We're at the Royal Festival Hall, and we're just about to hear

:21:55. > :21:56.a speech from Jeremy Corbyn's biggest ally,

:21:57. > :21:59.the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell.

:22:00. > :22:01.He claimed the Shadow Cabinet resignations have allowed

:22:02. > :22:06.a new generation of politicians to come forward.

:22:07. > :22:10.This has given opportunities to people like Barry,

:22:11. > :22:13.who I think should have been in Shadow Cabinet years ago,

:22:14. > :22:17.And they're rising to the challenge effectively.

:22:18. > :22:22.These are the heroes and heroines of our movement at the moment.

:22:23. > :22:25.You talked about the movement, rather than the party.

:22:26. > :22:28.Is that usurping traditional party structures?

:22:29. > :22:33.The movement is the Labour Party, and we're building it on a mass

:22:34. > :22:36.basis into a social movement so it isn't just an electoral machine

:22:37. > :22:39.it is something that engages in the wider community.

:22:40. > :22:42.If the Labour Party is to reconnect with people, it needs to do more

:22:43. > :22:45.than have soundbites and a polished media performance

:22:46. > :22:51.It needs to build a social movement, and I think Jeremy and John

:22:52. > :22:56.They've stood on picket lines alongside striking workers.

:22:57. > :23:02.With the threat of a leadership contest on the horizon,

:23:03. > :23:06.over the past week, Labour membership has risen by 60,000.

:23:07. > :23:09.But a new YouGov poll suggests that Labour Party members think

:23:10. > :23:12.Jeremy Corbyn is not doing as well in his job

:23:13. > :23:20.Aside from the focus on his own future, Jeremy Corbyn

:23:21. > :23:26.still has half a dozen key shadow front bench posts to fill so that

:23:27. > :23:34.Labour can offer effective opposition in Parliament.

:23:35. > :23:37.I'm joined now by the Labour MP Barry Gardiner, who has stayed loyal

:23:38. > :23:41.to Jeremy Corbyn and is now in the Shadow Cabinet.

:23:42. > :23:49.How can Jeremy Corbyn be regarded as a credible Leader of the Opposition?

:23:50. > :23:55.He cannot fill his Shadow Cabinet team and 80% of his fellow Labour

:23:56. > :23:58.MPs have no confidence in him. We have a very difficult situation in

:23:59. > :24:03.the Labour Party at the moment. We have a division between the

:24:04. > :24:06.Parliamentary Labour Party... The Parliamentary Labour Party has never

:24:07. > :24:12.actually supported Jeremy. Last year I think it was only 36 nominations

:24:13. > :24:16.that he secured. I didn't nominate Jeremy and I didn't vote for him,

:24:17. > :24:20.but nonetheless the way in which our party decides upon a leader is not

:24:21. > :24:26.just with the Parliamentary Labour Party, it is with the membership as

:24:27. > :24:32.well. What we have to do now is we now need to have a situation where

:24:33. > :24:36.we broker that divide, and we have seen, I think earlier today, we have

:24:37. > :24:41.seen that Jeremy himself wants to do that. He came out in the press today

:24:42. > :24:47.saying that, and also I think the unions have been saying that as

:24:48. > :24:51.well. A figure like Frances O'Grady or perhaps John Prescott, someone

:24:52. > :24:57.who has stayed neutral, out of the fight, but ultimately has the best

:24:58. > :25:02.interest, not of Jeremy, not of the party, but of the country, which

:25:03. > :25:07.needs to have a strong opposition at the moment at a time when you have

:25:08. > :25:11.seen the newspapers this morning, the Conservatives have their own

:25:12. > :25:19.problems. You have dealt with that. Calling each other hypocrites. Boris

:25:20. > :25:24.stabbed David, Michael Gove stabbed Boris, but there are fundamental

:25:25. > :25:29.issues about housing, fundamental issues about investment in this

:25:30. > :25:34.country. Before you can even get to that or deserve a hearing on that,

:25:35. > :25:38.you have got to sort things out as you have been seen. We have John

:25:39. > :25:42.Prescott on later in the programme, we will see if he is willing to be

:25:43. > :25:46.the honest broker in this, but in your mind what would be the general

:25:47. > :25:53.principle of a brokered agreement? What would be the compromise for Mr

:25:54. > :25:57.Corbyn? I'm not sitting here in that position as the negotiator, but what

:25:58. > :26:02.I would say is there are certain things that need to be respected.

:26:03. > :26:08.The democracy of the party needs to be respected, and that's what I had

:26:09. > :26:15.against the way in which this whole... Call it what you like. .

:26:16. > :26:19.To, plot was done. It was done in a way that didn't respect party

:26:20. > :26:24.members, didn't respect party democracy, and whatever we end up

:26:25. > :26:29.with the result of a negotiation, it must show that respect for the party

:26:30. > :26:39.membership. The second obviously is the legacy that Jeremy feels is his

:26:40. > :26:43.responsibility. He was elected with particular... On a particular

:26:44. > :26:50.mandate, political mandate. Not just about party democratisation, but a

:26:51. > :26:56.suite of policies that he would want to be sure were continued. Somehow

:26:57. > :27:01.we need to make sure that the compromise, whatever it is, brings

:27:02. > :27:06.both of those together. You are already talking about Mr Corbyn s

:27:07. > :27:09.legacy and you are talking about a suite of policies that could

:27:10. > :27:17.continue to be party policy even if he wasn't there. We are talking

:27:18. > :27:24.about a negotiated settlement. Which could involve Mr Corbyn going? That

:27:25. > :27:28.is not a matter for me. If you go into a negotiation, you are going to

:27:29. > :27:34.negotiate and what we know is that one side of that negotiation wants

:27:35. > :27:38.Jeremy to go now without a contest. The other side of that negotiation

:27:39. > :27:44.has clearly said there isn't going to be a resignation. What one has to

:27:45. > :27:52.do is say, any of these permutations may come together. The question is

:27:53. > :27:56.in what form, what shape? The coup, if I can call it that, try to ensure

:27:57. > :28:03.Jeremy simply threw up his hands and went. That is clearly not going to

:28:04. > :28:09.happen. Therefore what we have to do is be able to provide a strong and

:28:10. > :28:14.credible and real opposition to the Government at the moment because the

:28:15. > :28:21.country is in crisis after Brexit. Absolute crisis. Not just the pound

:28:22. > :28:25.falling to 35 euros, not just the stock markets but the whole future

:28:26. > :28:29.negotiation of investment in this country is up for grabs and we need

:28:30. > :28:33.to be saying that firmly to the House of Commons. And we don't have,

:28:34. > :28:38.at a time when many people think we most need it, we don't have a

:28:39. > :28:42.credible opposition. And we don t have a credible government, they are

:28:43. > :28:47.squabbling like rats in sacks. That seems to be the default position in

:28:48. > :28:52.politics on all sides! Let me put this to you, if you don't have a

:28:53. > :28:57.contest, Mr Corbyn cannot function as a credible opposition because he

:28:58. > :29:02.cannot fill the Shadow Cabinet and the other positions. If you do have

:29:03. > :29:07.a contest and he wins in the country, that doesn't resolve things

:29:08. > :29:14.either so neither of these two options really help you. Do they?

:29:15. > :29:20.That may be true but there may be a third way. What is that? A brokered

:29:21. > :29:28.agreement without Mr Corbyn? There would have to be a third way. I

:29:29. > :29:34.don't know what it is. It is not Tony Blair, I assume? We have moved

:29:35. > :29:38.on somewhat since those days and I'm huge admirer of Tony Blair and he

:29:39. > :29:42.led the Labour Party into government, and he won those

:29:43. > :29:46.collections and delivered a tremendous mandate, but that's not

:29:47. > :29:52.where we are now. It is your use of the third way that interested me. If

:29:53. > :29:55.there is to be a contest, if one of the rebels finally comes forward as

:29:56. > :30:02.a challenger and you have the vote again, would you vote for Mr Corbyn?

:30:03. > :30:11.I didn't vote for Jeremy nine months ago. He was not my choice as leader

:30:12. > :30:16.of the party. What I will do, if a candidate comes forward to challenge

:30:17. > :30:19.Jeremy, if Jeremy is part of that election, I will look at all of the

:30:20. > :30:24.candidates and make my judgment at that time as to what best serves not

:30:25. > :30:29.only the interests of the Labour Party, but what best serves the

:30:30. > :30:32.interests of the country. How did you vote in the no-confidence

:30:33. > :30:37.motion? That was a secret ballot and I will keep it that way. So you

:30:38. > :30:41.didn't vote for him before and you might not vote for him again and you

:30:42. > :30:45.keep the no-confidence ballot secret. Isn't there a systemic

:30:46. > :30:48.problem in the Labour Party that has developed with all the new Labour is

:30:49. > :30:53.that came in from last summer onwards, that they have invigorated

:30:54. > :30:58.your membership, but they may not be very representative, they are

:30:59. > :31:03.certainly not representative of the parliamentary party, and they may

:31:04. > :31:10.not be representative of the wider Labour voter, never mind the wider

:31:11. > :31:13.electorate. The wonderful thing about political parties is, if you

:31:14. > :31:20.look at most members of most political parties, they are a bit

:31:21. > :31:25.like anoraks. They are not similar to ordinary people, and that is in

:31:26. > :31:37.both parties. You are asking a more subtle question, whether we are

:31:38. > :31:41.seeing entries into the party. - entryism. And there has been, but

:31:42. > :31:45.those people have been evicted from the party, and rightly so. I don't

:31:46. > :31:49.want people to join the Labour Party because they can think they can

:31:50. > :31:54.destabilise it. I want people to join because they want to fight this

:31:55. > :31:58.rotten government, make sure the real issues that people are facing

:31:59. > :32:01.in terms of their jobs and their livelihoods are tackled and get out

:32:02. > :32:04.with me on the doorstep each weekend, knocking on doors and

:32:05. > :32:11.talking to people, not just coming into exercise their vote once in a

:32:12. > :32:16.while. Final question, which could be answered yes, know or don't know.

:32:17. > :32:18.When we talk again at the Labour Party conference in Liverpool at the

:32:19. > :32:25.end of September, will Mr Corbyn still be your leader? I don't know.

:32:26. > :32:29.I haven't got a crystal ball to see the results of whatever negotiations

:32:30. > :32:30.Jeremy now engages in. Thank you for joining us in these interesting

:32:31. > :32:34.times. Well, earlier, Len McCluskey -

:32:35. > :32:35.the General Secretary of the Unite union,

:32:36. > :32:37.Labour's biggest donor - told Andrew Marr that Mr Corbyn

:32:38. > :32:40.was not going anywhere, and that rebellious MPs seemed

:32:41. > :32:42.to have been seduced Grandees being dragged out to be

:32:43. > :32:46.part of this unedifying coup The reality is that this

:32:47. > :32:50.has been a political Undermined, humiliated,

:32:51. > :32:58.attacked in order to push him out. Jeremy Corbyn is made

:32:59. > :33:04.of stronger stuff. and he has made it clear that

:33:05. > :33:09.he will not step down. And Chris Bryant, who resigned

:33:10. > :33:24.from the Shadow Cabinet Will there be a challenge to Mr

:33:25. > :33:30.Corbyn now for the leadership? Well, there is a previous question. It

:33:31. > :33:35.seems to me that there are millions of people who would like to be able

:33:36. > :33:38.to vote for the Labour Party, but whilst we have this unsustainable

:33:39. > :33:42.position, they feel it is impossible. And the unsustainability

:33:43. > :33:47.of it is that we are a parliamentary democracy. So the first job of them

:33:48. > :33:51.leader of the Labour Party is to lead the Labour Party and provide an

:33:52. > :33:57.opposition. That requires 95 MPs on the front bench. Jeremy can't get

:33:58. > :34:00.more than 20 or 25. That means the present situation is unsustainable.

:34:01. > :34:08.The only person who can break that logjam is Jeremy. But the logjam

:34:09. > :34:15.would be tested if someone challenged him. So let me come to

:34:16. > :34:19.the second question. Will somebody challenging? Should they? I don t

:34:20. > :34:23.want anyone to challenging yet, I want Jeremy to read the writing on

:34:24. > :34:27.the wall. We have now had an opinion poll of Labour Party members which

:34:28. > :34:31.shows that 44% of them want him to go now and another 10% want him to

:34:32. > :34:34.go before the general election. We have had votes of no confidence not

:34:35. > :34:40.only in the Parliamentary party more than 80% of MPs, this has never

:34:41. > :34:44.happened before, saying they have no confidence in his leadership. That

:34:45. > :34:48.means he wouldn't be able to get on the ballot paper. There is a reason

:34:49. > :34:52.why the rule book says you have to get a certain number of nominations

:34:53. > :34:56.from the Parliamentary party, because if you haven't even got that

:34:57. > :35:04.much support, how can you leave the Labour Party? Even if you are the

:35:05. > :35:08.incumbent? People watching this programme who may not be political

:35:09. > :35:11.will think that if you are the leader of a party and you challenge

:35:12. > :35:16.for the leadership, natural justice says you should be allowed to defend

:35:17. > :35:19.your position? But if you then return to the status quo with the

:35:20. > :35:25.same unsustainable position, that doesn't resolve anything. That would

:35:26. > :35:30.be your democratic decision. Well, because we are a Parliamentary

:35:31. > :35:36.democracy, the leader of the Labour Party has to be able to unite the

:35:37. > :35:41.Parliamentary party and recruit supporters to our cause. Amongst the

:35:42. > :35:49.membership, I don't think Jeremy would win a contest. It was striking

:35:50. > :35:54.to me how many people have got in touch with me from my local party.

:35:55. > :35:57.Of course there are those who are ardent supporters, but others have

:35:58. > :36:02.cut in touch to say I only joined the Labour Party to support Jeremy,

:36:03. > :36:06.but this can't go on. He is not convincing me or my neighbours, and

:36:07. > :36:10.they want him to go. You may be right, but there is only one way to

:36:11. > :36:15.put that to the test and that is for someone to challenge Mr Corbyn.

:36:16. > :36:22.Let's see how the dominoes fall No, because that brings us to the same

:36:23. > :36:27.position. It would be phenomenally bruising within the Labour Party to

:36:28. > :36:31.have that contest. More effective would be for Jeremy to read the

:36:32. > :36:35.writing on the wall. It must be eight metres high now. How can you

:36:36. > :36:38.go forward with a situation as leader of the Labour Party, when

:36:39. > :36:41.seven of your new members of your Shadow Cabinet, that you only

:36:42. > :36:45.appointed this week as Corbyn supporters, want to come and see you

:36:46. > :36:52.and you are so frightened that you can't even meet with them? I see the

:36:53. > :36:59.logic of that. How long will you give him to read this writing on the

:37:00. > :37:06.wall? It is up to Jeremy. He is a decent man. I can't imagine any

:37:07. > :37:09.other leader of the Labour Party in our history, apart from perhaps

:37:10. > :37:13.Ramsay MacDonald, who would not have taken on board the result of a

:37:14. > :37:18.motion of no confidence. But he seems to be surrounded by people who

:37:19. > :37:21.are telling him not to. We have heard that he was thinking of

:37:22. > :37:26.standing down, but was talked out of it. We don't know the veracity of

:37:27. > :37:32.that. But if he doesn't and decides to hang on, what do you do? Once you

:37:33. > :37:40.are in the bunker and you have a bunker mentality, the game is up. I

:37:41. > :37:43.am sure that in Jeremy's hard, he knows there is a danger that his

:37:44. > :37:49.broken leadership will break the Labour Party. Parliament goes into

:37:50. > :37:53.recess on the 21st of July. The Tories haven't got much time to go

:37:54. > :37:57.further leadership process, and you haven't got much time. If he hangs

:37:58. > :38:02.on until the parliamentary recess, he is there for the party

:38:03. > :38:06.conference. No. We then also have the September session. But if Jeremy

:38:07. > :38:13.is listening, I would just say, please, you are the only person who

:38:14. > :38:16.can break this logjam. You could go out with dignity and the whole of

:38:17. > :38:19.the Labour movement, and the millions who would love to vote for

:38:20. > :38:23.the Labour Party at the time when we have a gastric Tory government which

:38:24. > :38:27.might inflict even more harm to further -- a gastric Tory government

:38:28. > :38:31.which might inflict further anti-austerity policies come if you

:38:32. > :38:34.were to go now, those people would say you have done the honourable

:38:35. > :38:39.thing. The Labour Party isn't going to go back to what it was ten years

:38:40. > :38:42.ago. What did you make of what Barry Gardner was saying about a third

:38:43. > :38:48.way, some kind of brokered arrangement, which I took to imply

:38:49. > :38:53.need not mean Mr Corbyn continuing as leader? It didn't sound to me as

:38:54. > :39:00.if Barry was supportive of Jeremy remaining as leader. Part of what

:39:01. > :39:04.happens now must be Jeremy going, I think. But it is a problem if Jeremy

:39:05. > :39:07.will not even see the seven people in his Shadow Cabinet that he

:39:08. > :39:11.appointed this week who wanted to talk to him about his departing with

:39:12. > :39:15.honour more or if he will not even have a meeting with the leader of

:39:16. > :39:19.the deputy Labour Party, who also has a mandate. My local members the

:39:20. > :39:26.other day, some of them want Jeremy to stay, but many were saying this

:39:27. > :39:30.is now unsustainable. Jeremy must go. The party must treat him with

:39:31. > :39:37.decency so that we can move forward and take the fight to the Tories. If

:39:38. > :39:43.he doesn't go, or if the is a contest and he wins again, what

:39:44. > :39:48.happens to the Labour Party? That would break the back of the Labour

:39:49. > :39:52.Party on, I would argue, the vanity of those surrounding Jeremy. And I

:39:53. > :39:56.think that would be a terrible shame, because there are people in

:39:57. > :40:00.my constituency who will only get a decent chance in life, and for that

:40:01. > :40:03.matter in other parts of the country who, after the Brexit vote last

:40:04. > :40:07.week, wanted the Labour Party to come up with a strong argument about

:40:08. > :40:12.how we could change the country for the better, and they will have

:40:13. > :40:16.nowhere to turn. If you break the back of the party, it sounds

:40:17. > :40:22.possible that the Labour Party would split. We are parliamentary

:40:23. > :40:25.democracy. We were founded as the Labour Party because the trade

:40:26. > :40:31.unions started losing battles through the courts and we wanted to

:40:32. > :40:35.change the laws and to do that, you had to change the government. That

:40:36. > :40:38.is what I still believe in. But the leader of the Labour Party has to

:40:39. > :40:41.convince voters that we have a compelling vision for the future of

:40:42. > :40:48.this country. And Jeremy is unable to do that. Many of his policies, I

:40:49. > :40:55.would support. I want us to change the language around public

:40:56. > :40:58.expenditure and the public sector. Many parts of the country feel no

:40:59. > :41:04.elected and there are angry people who want to vote Labour, but are not

:41:05. > :41:10.convinced -- they feel neglected. As things stand, even with chaos in the

:41:11. > :41:19.governing party, you would need a miracle to win in 2020. I believe in

:41:20. > :41:26.miracles. And the most important miracle is that Jeremy can break the

:41:27. > :41:32.logjam. You still don't want to hit Ed Miliband smack you have changed

:41:33. > :41:39.your mind on that. I don't. I wish the Labour Party were not where they

:41:40. > :41:41.are, because I can do nothing for the Rhondda. May your God go with

:41:42. > :41:42.you. It's coming up to 11:40,

:41:43. > :41:45.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:41:46. > :41:47.in Scotland, who leave us now I'll be talking to the former deputy

:41:48. > :41:52.leader of the First, though, the Sunday

:41:53. > :42:02.Politics where you are. This week, we continue

:42:03. > :42:08.to try to fathom what Brexit And here was one thing

:42:09. > :42:11.that happened... A decision on Heathrow

:42:12. > :42:14.expansion put off again, But Sir Howard Davies

:42:15. > :42:18.tells us he hopes the two Joining me for the duration,

:42:19. > :42:29.former transport minister Jim Fitzpatrick, Labour MP

:42:30. > :42:31.for Poplar and Limehouse, and Immigration Minister,

:42:32. > :42:43.James Brokenshire, Conservative MP James, what did you think when you

:42:44. > :42:46.saw the way Boris Johnson was disposed of this week? It has been

:42:47. > :42:51.an extraordinary week with all of the changes that have taken place. I

:42:52. > :42:55.am supporting Theresa May for the leadership of the Conservative Party

:42:56. > :43:01.to be our next Prime Minister. So when you heard what happened to

:43:02. > :43:04.Boris Johnson, what did you think? Well, Boris has been such a big

:43:05. > :43:13.figure in the Conservative Party for so long. I hope he will still have a

:43:14. > :43:18.role to play. Surprise, shock. It was extraordinary that Boris, having

:43:19. > :43:24.set up in terms of running for the Conservative leadership, suddenly

:43:25. > :43:29.now not to be running. And now that your candidate could win? We are not

:43:30. > :43:34.taking anything for granted. It is important that we get out to sell

:43:35. > :43:38.the message of what Theresa will do, the experience she has, how she

:43:39. > :43:42.would be a leader from day one. But it is important to underline that

:43:43. > :43:47.sense of unity of the party and the country coming together. I believe

:43:48. > :43:52.Theresa May has those qualities but we will need to see what

:43:53. > :43:56.Conservative MPs say this week. It is now that study approach in

:43:57. > :44:02.undermining the strength that Theresa has. Jim Fitzpatrick, the

:44:03. > :44:06.next steps for your party? Well the ball is in Jeremy Corbyn's court. He

:44:07. > :44:11.has lost over 60 of his shadow ministers including most of his

:44:12. > :44:13.Shadow Cabinet. He has lost lost the support of many of his previous

:44:14. > :44:18.supporters within the Parliamentary Labour Party. There seems to be a

:44:19. > :44:24.groundswell outside which is not as supportive of him as previously But

:44:25. > :44:29.he is supported by the membership. Well, there is some evidence that

:44:30. > :44:33.the membership are moving. It remains to be seen. The only person

:44:34. > :44:37.who can break the logjam is Jeremy. He has lost the confidence of the

:44:38. > :44:39.dressing room, to use a football analogy, and his team will not play

:44:40. > :44:51.for him. But Barry Gardiner says this is an

:44:52. > :45:00.offence against democracy, what you have been doing? The ministers have

:45:01. > :45:03.tried for nine months and ultimately they have said it is just not going

:45:04. > :45:11.to work and on what basis they have said we will not be part of it.

:45:12. > :45:16.Surely the next Prime Minister has to be someone who voted for Brexit?

:45:17. > :45:21.No, they have to have the right qualities and I think Theresa has

:45:22. > :45:28.those qualities. 17 million people voted for it, the key quality has to

:45:29. > :45:32.have made that decision to lead that battle? But this is about choosing

:45:33. > :45:37.Prime Minister, this is how we get the best possible deal for London

:45:38. > :45:41.and the country, very much at the forefront, but it's also about

:45:42. > :45:45.national security. Theresa May has those qualities, but it's also how

:45:46. > :45:49.she will set up a separate department led by someone who

:45:50. > :45:53.advocated Brexit and they can reunify the country as well. It s

:45:54. > :45:57.like you have read the script! Let's move on.

:45:58. > :45:59.The Mayor, Sadiq Khan, said this week that Brexit

:46:00. > :46:03.for more powers to be devolved to London - that is to

:46:04. > :46:08.He hijacked a Leave slogan and said it was time to "take back control".

:46:09. > :46:11.As the petition calling for London to declare independence reached

:46:12. > :46:13.almost 200,000 signatories this week, the Mayor outlined

:46:14. > :46:19.Londoners who voted for a different path than the rest of England need

:46:20. > :46:22.We need to control our own destiny, we need

:46:23. > :46:29.The Mayor is backing calls to keep all business rate

:46:30. > :46:33.income, stamp duty income, and revalue council tax.

:46:34. > :46:35.He also wants to borrow more for infrastructure

:46:36. > :46:40.like transport, and also take over suburban railway services.

:46:41. > :46:43.Sadiq Khan has urged the Government to move fast on devolution

:46:44. > :46:45.and he asserts that London cannot afford to hang around

:46:46. > :46:51.The former mayor Boris Johnson's chief economic adviser,

:46:52. > :47:06.Welcome to you, and impossible before we get onto some of the

:47:07. > :47:16.economics and devolution issues about the man to not ask what you

:47:17. > :47:19.think about that? Obviously it is disappointing he has not continued

:47:20. > :47:22.with his campaign but to be honest policies matter more than

:47:23. > :47:28.personalities. I think Andrea Leadsom is a very good candidate,

:47:29. > :47:34.she brings forward the Brexit case. Rather than Michael Gove? In my

:47:35. > :47:38.view, yes. Brexit is not only positive for London but for the UK.

:47:39. > :47:43.Boris was a very good Mayor of London but we are in a new situation

:47:44. > :47:48.now and I think Andrea is a very good candidate. Any comment about

:47:49. > :47:58.why Boris Johnson pulled out? I don't have an Ian -- any more

:47:59. > :48:02.information on that then you have. Obviously you helped him a lot in

:48:03. > :48:06.terms of the Leave campaign and supplied a lot of the intellectual

:48:07. > :48:17.ballast, are you disappointed that he didn't go ahead and stand? As I

:48:18. > :48:21.say, I admire Boris on economic issues, bought at the end of the day

:48:22. > :48:25.life is more than personalities Obviously I think he would have done

:48:26. > :48:29.very well but I think there are other good candidates as well.

:48:30. > :48:33.Coming back to your question, and my disappointed, the most important

:48:34. > :48:38.thing is for the country has voted for Brexit. One has to be mindful

:48:39. > :48:42.about the fact 48% of people voted to Remain but we need to move

:48:43. > :48:47.forward and leave the European Union. The best way is to invoke

:48:48. > :48:56.article 50 to try to make it clear we will not try to reverse that

:48:57. > :49:00.decision. When? Immediately? We cannot have political stability

:49:01. > :49:04.until the new Prime Minister or the Leader of the Opposition are in

:49:05. > :49:09.place. I would personally like to see that speeded up but it's not

:49:10. > :49:14.possible it seems. When we have political stability we can start to

:49:15. > :49:17.implement policies. The major report you did for Boris Johnson a couple

:49:18. > :49:22.of years ago made clear that the best option would be to stay in the

:49:23. > :49:26.EU as long as it was reformed and the second-best option was obviously

:49:27. > :49:33.that you could come out and really negotiate very well. Do you still

:49:34. > :49:37.stick by that? To be clear. In terms of the scenarios, I stressed that

:49:38. > :49:42.leaving would be an economic shock, and the Treasury Select Committee

:49:43. > :49:47.refer to my comments in their report, and I said the best two

:49:48. > :49:51.scenarios by a long way were either to be in a truly reformed European

:49:52. > :49:56.Union or to be global with Brexit and both of those were considerably

:49:57. > :50:02.better than staying in an EU that was not reformed. You said expect

:50:03. > :50:08.there to be turbulence for a couple of years, have you been surprised by

:50:09. > :50:12.the immediate turbulent shocks? Actually what I made clear was that

:50:13. > :50:16.it depends on the policies chosen, and I think coming back to

:50:17. > :50:24.reiterating an earlier point, we need to have sensible policies being

:50:25. > :50:30.chosen. The life and the economic out -- outcome depends on the

:50:31. > :50:38.fundamentals, which show the UK economy losing momentum before this

:50:39. > :50:42.referendum. Also G7 countries highlighting the need for policy

:50:43. > :50:46.boost. Confidence is a difficult one. What's interesting is that on

:50:47. > :50:51.Friday the Chancellor, correctly in my view, changed his fiscal stance.

:50:52. > :50:54.We need a lot more infrastructure spending, the UK Government can

:50:55. > :51:00.borrow for next to nothing and we should be investing longer term for

:51:01. > :51:04.the infrastructure. James, do you agree, that we may get short-term

:51:05. > :51:10.turbulence but we will restore confidence eventually with the right

:51:11. > :51:16.leader in place? I think that is now the key objective that we move

:51:17. > :51:22.forward... And it was always going to be the objective, Leave was never

:51:23. > :51:26.going to be a problem... I was never arguing this guy would fall in, it

:51:27. > :51:31.is now giving that sense of stability, getting the right

:51:32. > :51:34.policies. I think we shouldn't just rushed to invoke article 50, it is

:51:35. > :51:39.important we have a clearer approach set out in terms of our negotiating

:51:40. > :51:43.mandate so we can go in clearly and get the best possible deal. That's

:51:44. > :51:47.why I think it is right not to trigger that before the end of this

:51:48. > :51:52.year, but it is how we get the best possible deal for the city, for

:51:53. > :51:55.London, on the best possible access for goods and services to the single

:51:56. > :52:02.market. That is the approach we need to be clear on. And no signals at

:52:03. > :52:07.all that London cannot get a good deal in this new world. Sadiq Khan

:52:08. > :52:11.has outlined this week that London obviously has a special place in the

:52:12. > :52:16.UK economy, it needs special arrangements. He has already laid

:52:17. > :52:20.out a case for greater devolution of powers to London as an entity.

:52:21. > :52:24.People are naturally very worried and we need the reassurance of

:52:25. > :52:28.political stability, and that will not happen very soon but hopefully

:52:29. > :52:33.as quickly as possible. We need an effective opposition as well to keep

:52:34. > :52:38.the Government on their toes, to hold them to account and we are not

:52:39. > :52:42.going to do that any time soon. Was there a sense of contradiction for

:52:43. > :52:47.you this week in Sadiq Khan asking for more devolution to London given

:52:48. > :52:53.that you think his support for the EU was a centralising body? Yes I

:52:54. > :53:00.thought the mayor gave a very good speech but I thought there was a big

:53:01. > :53:05.contradiction in terms. He spoke about the need to be in the EU. At

:53:06. > :53:12.the same time he said devolved more powers to London. But because of the

:53:13. > :53:16.EU decision, it has made that case. We have decided to leave the

:53:17. > :53:19.European Union, I think that's in the best interests for London and

:53:20. > :53:25.the whole country, but the mayor said this week was something Boris

:53:26. > :53:31.Johnson was pushing for, to devolve more powers not just to London but

:53:32. > :53:36.across the whole country. But for transparency, and will allow more

:53:37. > :53:38.infrastructure spending. Let's move on. Stay with us.

:53:39. > :53:41.At just over one million, EU nationals account for 12%

:53:42. > :53:47.Perhaps overlooked amidst the sound and fury of the battles fought

:53:48. > :53:49.over the referendum, the decision to leave

:53:50. > :53:52.the European Union has cast doubt over the future of EU nationals

:53:53. > :53:56.Those nationals seeking clarity might feel less than assured

:53:57. > :53:59.by Theresa May's speech on Thursday as she launched her campaign

:54:00. > :54:01.to become the next Prime Minister, indicating that the legal status

:54:02. > :54:09.of EU nationals will at some point be on the table for negotiation

:54:10. > :54:11.And until a new legal agreement is reached with the EU,

:54:12. > :54:14.which will not happen for some time, the legal status of British

:54:15. > :54:18.nationals living or working in Europe will not change

:54:19. > :54:24.and neither will the status of EU nationals in Britain.

:54:25. > :54:26.Cause for disquiet then for the EU National community

:54:27. > :54:31.We showed a few of them Theresa May's speech.

:54:32. > :54:34.Actually a colleague of mine at work, she came to work the other

:54:35. > :54:40.day and she said her kids came back from school saying that...

:54:41. > :54:43.asking mum, are going to be deported?

:54:44. > :54:50.She said no, don't worry, we are not leaving, but after this

:54:51. > :54:56.The morning after the referendum results, I felt it was

:54:57. > :55:00.Suddenly I'm looking over my shoulder for no reason,

:55:01. > :55:07.It's kind of a primal instinct now to just think about looking

:55:08. > :55:11.at people on the bus and thinking, oh, 50% of this bus voted for me

:55:12. > :55:17.The UK has yet to begin negotiations to leave the EU, leaving

:55:18. > :55:30.the fate of EU nationals here very much in limbo.

:55:31. > :55:38.Gerard, would London survive without it EU workforce? I think they will

:55:39. > :55:44.stay, but 38% of the London population is international, on a

:55:45. > :55:48.par with New York and Singapore One in eight people in the finance

:55:49. > :55:54.industry are Europeans, so they are important and hence the focus on the

:55:55. > :55:58.points-based migration system. Jim Fitzpatrick, freedom of movement is

:55:59. > :56:03.up for grabs, you have to reconsider your policy on migration as well. It

:56:04. > :56:08.is clearly an issue, but the attacks on European citizens and people who

:56:09. > :56:11.are brown and black are completely outrageous and it is great the

:56:12. > :56:15.Government has said they will clamp down on that. We need to see the

:56:16. > :56:19.police taking greater action because these people have been working here,

:56:20. > :56:25.they are helping London be successful and they need those

:56:26. > :56:30.reassurances. Will EU citizens after EU be able to stay here? There is no

:56:31. > :56:34.change at the moment whilst we remain in the European Union, and

:56:35. > :56:39.it's important we look for guarantees for those EU citizens who

:56:40. > :56:43.are here, those who are working and contributing, and equally for

:56:44. > :56:48.British citizens overseas. We heard some concerns in the film and I

:56:49. > :56:53.didn't hear it clarified by Theresa May or Robert Peston this morning,

:56:54. > :56:58.can you guarantee that the people from the EU here now will be able to

:56:59. > :57:02.stay as long as they like? It is important to seek those guarantees

:57:03. > :57:07.as part of the negotiation, but Jim's point is right, some of the

:57:08. > :57:11.awful incidents that have taken place are unacceptable and don't

:57:12. > :57:15.represent our country. Do you accept you cannot guarantee that, the

:57:16. > :57:19.people who have contributed their taxes and made their lives here

:57:20. > :57:24.won't be able to stay? It is important we have this as a core

:57:25. > :57:29.part of the negotiation, to get that reassurance. It is such an important

:57:30. > :57:34.part of our economy, around 60, 00 people in the care sector, we need

:57:35. > :57:39.to look at that assurance so people can continue to contribute in that

:57:40. > :57:44.way. You are shaking your head but no party will be able to guarantee

:57:45. > :57:49.that now. The mixed signals the Government is sending has given

:57:50. > :57:53.licence to people to think it is a field day on foreign people. We need

:57:54. > :57:56.to make sure the Government acts to clamp down on people who are

:57:57. > :58:02.attacking those with a different accent. The police are giving the

:58:03. > :58:07.firm message this is utterly unacceptable. Sorry we cannot come

:58:08. > :58:08.back to you. Gerard, thanks for coming.

:58:09. > :58:11.First it was meant to be last Christmas, then it was this summer.

:58:12. > :58:13.Now it's slipped until at least October.

:58:14. > :58:16.No-one seems to want to have to make this decision on airport expansion.

:58:17. > :58:19.But the chair of the commission which recommended a third

:58:20. > :58:21.runway at Heathrow - and as a second preference

:58:22. > :58:23.another runway at Gatwick - has told us he thinks

:58:24. > :58:25.it's the perfect moment for a new Prime Minister

:58:26. > :58:29.A new campaign to challenge plans for Heathrow Airport

:58:30. > :58:35.Just a small airfield in the middle of acres of farmland,

:58:36. > :58:41.People have been making almost exactly the same news report

:58:42. > :58:43.about Heathrow expansion for decades.

:58:44. > :58:46.There's a map of the new runway at visit to a potentially

:58:47. > :58:52.We said we didn't think another runway was necessary

:58:53. > :58:54.in the south-east until the year 2016, providing we are allowed

:58:55. > :59:02.The latest push for a third runway began exactly one

:59:03. > :59:06.year and two days ago, when the Government's Airport

:59:07. > :59:11.Chaired by the Economist Sir Howard Davies, he plumped for Heathrow

:59:12. > :59:13.We have concluded that the north-west runway at Heathrow

:59:14. > :59:19.12 months on, he told us he was disappointed

:59:20. > :59:27.They said they needed to look at evidence and our analysis,

:59:28. > :59:29.which is quite reasonable, but that they would make

:59:30. > :59:35.a decision in the autumn, that's the autumn of 2015.

:59:36. > :59:37.The decision came eventually in December, and opted for indecision.

:59:38. > :59:41.More work was needed, the Government said,

:59:42. > :59:46.on air quality impacts, but then this week more delay.

:59:47. > :59:48.The Government said it would now be down to the next

:59:49. > :59:54.News which dropped just hours before this meeting from the lobbying

:59:55. > :00:00.On every seat here they have given away a packet of fudge, which says,

:00:01. > :00:05."stop fudging a decision on airport expansion".

:00:06. > :00:08.It's fair to say that a lot of people here think that is exactly

:00:09. > :00:16.I'm not surprised but it is bad news for British economy.

:00:17. > :00:18.Now more than ever we need decisions to go ahead on investment

:00:19. > :00:27.But the news kept coming. After the meeting, this.

:00:28. > :00:31...I have concluded that person cannot be me.

:00:32. > :00:33.Along with the former mayor's prime ministerial ambitions,

:00:34. > :00:37.surely went any hope of this - his idea for an airport

:00:38. > :00:42.in the Thames estuary, sometimes dubbed Boris Island.

:00:43. > :00:45.Now whether building a new airport in the Thames estuary

:00:46. > :00:48.was a good idea or not, you cannot take it away

:00:49. > :00:51.from Boris Johnson, he was certainly very clear in his enthusiasm

:00:52. > :00:57.What is much less clear is where the people who are still in the race

:00:58. > :01:00.to be the Conservative leader stand on the issue.

:01:01. > :01:03.Both Theresa May and Michael Gove have constituencies near Heathrow

:01:04. > :01:08.and have in the past expressed concerns about its noise.

:01:09. > :01:12.So, does that mean that they would oppose a third runway?

:01:13. > :01:15.Neither Theresa May nor Michael Gove were involved in the Cabinet

:01:16. > :01:18.committee which was looking at these options, and I'm not aware

:01:19. > :01:21.that they have made any firm commitment either for or against.

:01:22. > :01:27.They both have struck me when I have met them as being people

:01:28. > :01:31.who are analytical, who will look at the pros and cons in a way

:01:32. > :01:37.that is imbued with the national interest, if you like,

:01:38. > :01:42.But nevertheless it seemed to some that it was a good week for

:01:43. > :01:44.alternatives to Heathrow Airport, namely building a second

:01:45. > :01:54.I mean, in our view we have always had a very strong case and we think

:01:55. > :01:57.today our case is probably strong as it has ever been so, yes,

:01:58. > :02:05.For half a century, people have struggled with how to build

:02:06. > :02:10.extra airport capacity here in the south-east.

:02:11. > :02:14.Could it be that it is so difficult, the closest a new runway ever gets

:02:15. > :02:25.to being built is pretty much just a map drawing on a news report?

:02:26. > :02:37.James, what will you be advising Theresa May to do? Let's look at the

:02:38. > :02:42.evidence that will come through It's important that we get the air

:02:43. > :02:46.quality information. Equally, the airport operators are saying they

:02:47. > :02:49.will set out more details as to how they would provide financial

:02:50. > :02:55.compensation and also, the links to other airports. So I think it's

:02:56. > :02:58.about getting the decision right. I can understand why it has been

:02:59. > :03:02.deferred. It doesn't affect the long term time scale, but it is better

:03:03. > :03:11.that whoever is the next Prime Minister has that information. Where

:03:12. > :03:18.do you think it should go? I have not expressed a view. I want to look

:03:19. > :03:21.at the evidence as well. Knowing that for so many people, the air

:03:22. > :03:28.quality information is essential to the conclusion. Clarify for us, I

:03:29. > :03:34.understood that Theresa May was against expansion at Heathrow. Is

:03:35. > :03:38.that the case? I have never had a conversation with her about this.

:03:39. > :03:44.You would have to ask her. But it is about looking at the evidence

:03:45. > :03:47.carefully, and the economic analysis as well as the environmental impact

:03:48. > :03:51.so that we get the right decision. Yes, we are seeing a further

:03:52. > :03:55.deferral, but that doesn't have an overall impact. Jim, you have always

:03:56. > :04:08.supported it in the past and still back it now. We had a 2003 white

:04:09. > :04:12.paper which recommended it. In 012, the government realised they had

:04:13. > :04:17.made a mistake. They set up a commission to say there would be an

:04:18. > :04:23.answer by 2015, then by January Then there was Labour confusion as

:04:24. > :04:25.well. Given the Brexit result, one of the real challenges is

:04:26. > :04:30.connectivity to the rest of the world. Our trading partners, Paris,

:04:31. > :04:35.Madrid, Berlin, all of our main competitors have four or six runway

:04:36. > :04:41.airports. Dubai has just built a six runway airport. We are dithering and

:04:42. > :04:44.we need this sorted. And it is private sector investment, not

:04:45. > :04:48.taxpayers' money. Let both airports do their job, which is to sell

:04:49. > :04:53.business to their customers. Well, you have heard him loud and clear. I

:04:54. > :04:53.hope you are reported to Theresa May.

:04:54. > :04:59.That's all we have time for. Back to Andrew.

:05:00. > :05:02.Let's return to Labour's travails now, and we're joined now from Hull

:05:03. > :05:09.by the former deputy leader of the Labour Party, John Prescott.

:05:10. > :05:17.Earlier in this programme am a Barry Gardiner, a member of the Shadow

:05:18. > :05:20.Cabinet, said that what was needed was an honest broker to resolve the

:05:21. > :05:25.issue between Mr Corbyn and the parliamentary party and the party in

:05:26. > :05:31.the country. He named you as a potential honest broker. Are you up

:05:32. > :05:36.for it? I'm amazed. He twists and turns every 24 hours. And all of a

:05:37. > :05:40.sudden, when I appear on your programme, I am told I am to be the

:05:41. > :05:46.honest broker. There is no doubt that I love my party, the Labour

:05:47. > :05:50.Party. I would always do whatever was helpful. But simply because I

:05:51. > :05:53.had a few negotiating with is with Gordon and Tony, it's not an easy

:05:54. > :05:59.proposition. You have to have the will, and the Will this time must

:06:00. > :06:04.be, can we avoid the disaster we are heading to and the talk of civil war

:06:05. > :06:10.and separate parties? You can't have that. We must do everything to stop

:06:11. > :06:18.it. Is that a note to being honest broker? You can take on a thing from

:06:19. > :06:22.that. I am just amazed to hear it. It wouldn't just be one person, it

:06:23. > :06:26.would have to be a group of people are thinking about how you deal with

:06:27. > :06:29.the real problems. The MPs have concerns about selections which they

:06:30. > :06:33.have been that and with. There is concern about what the negotiating

:06:34. > :06:38.position will be an about the leadership. When I listen to the

:06:39. > :06:44.programmes again, Neil Kinnock and others, whether you can go ahead

:06:45. > :06:48.without an election. I am a believer and I fought hard for one member,

:06:49. > :06:53.one vote to involve the ordinary members. That is why I persuaded

:06:54. > :06:57.people to vote for Jeremy, let the party make the decision. I didn t

:06:58. > :07:03.vote for him. I didn't think he was the leader I wanted. But the party

:07:04. > :07:08.did speak. What has changed now is one member, one vote. The

:07:09. > :07:12.Parliamentary party has its position. It used to originally

:07:13. > :07:18.elect the leader. We changed that and went out to the members. Surely

:07:19. > :07:21.if you want an election, use the proper procedure, get the names of

:07:22. > :07:28.the MPs for the nominations and have an election. I hope we don't. I hope

:07:29. > :07:34.Angela and Owen Smith don't go into an election, because that will take

:07:35. > :07:41.the fight closer to civil war. If Mr Corbyn is challenged, is it your

:07:42. > :07:44.view that as the incumbent, as the existing leader of the Labour Party,

:07:45. > :07:51.he has a right to be on the ballot paper automatically? I hear what the

:07:52. > :07:55.lawyers they about that. I say this. If you want to challenge the leader

:07:56. > :08:00.of the Labour Party, then you get the names of the MPs and a

:08:01. > :08:10.nomination list and have a vote But since he is the incumbent, and if he

:08:11. > :08:15.is being challenged rather than stepping down, whatever the lawyers

:08:16. > :08:22.say, would he not have a right to be on the ballot paper? I believe if he

:08:23. > :08:26.can get sufficient names from the PLP, which is the rule under our

:08:27. > :08:32.situation, then he is entitled to be on it. The argument as to whether

:08:33. > :08:37.because he was the leader before is a legal one, personally, if you are

:08:38. > :08:41.going to have an election, and I hope we don't, that is the only way

:08:42. > :08:48.to sort it out. Otherwise you have a divided party. So he would still

:08:49. > :08:54.need to get the names as well. Those are the rules we have. But why

:08:55. > :08:58.haven't the names being put up before now? On this occasion, they

:08:59. > :09:03.hoped they could shake him down They hoped he would resign

:09:04. > :09:08.voluntarily. I think many MPs were convinced that was the road forward.

:09:09. > :09:12.Well, it hasn't turned out that way and the man intends to stand in the

:09:13. > :09:16.election. In my view, follow the processes of the party and get the

:09:17. > :09:21.names of supporters to enter the list. If he is not challenged and

:09:22. > :09:29.remains as leader of the Labour Party, what evidence is there that

:09:30. > :09:34.he will get better at the job? Well, I didn't vote for Jeremy for some of

:09:35. > :09:40.these reasons. From when he started to now, he has been improving. But I

:09:41. > :09:44.do accept that a lot of people are not convinced. He doesn't have the

:09:45. > :09:49.pension you sometimes need. I scream and shout, as you know, from time to

:09:50. > :09:52.time. They don't doubt that he believes what he is saying, but a

:09:53. > :09:57.leader has to reach across the party. I don't think Jeremy has done

:09:58. > :10:00.that. There are people in the party who have declared war on him from

:10:01. > :10:05.the first day of his election, let's be honest. He has got to improve.

:10:06. > :10:11.The party has to recognise the road it has embarked upon, or the PLP.

:10:12. > :10:17.And we need to prevent civil war. It would be disastrous for us. I sat in

:10:18. > :10:23.the Labour Party when it was the SDP and they put us out for 18 years. Is

:10:24. > :10:28.that what we want again? Is that our answer to the people screaming out

:10:29. > :10:32.to tackle this Tory government? Follow the constitution. Have an

:10:33. > :10:38.election if you have to, although I hope we don't have to. I hope Angela

:10:39. > :10:43.and Owen will not stand. I tried to advise a week ago to take more time

:10:44. > :10:48.to think about it. I think the MPs should go away and think about it

:10:49. > :10:55.over the holiday and come back and remember that the party once asked

:10:56. > :10:59.to resent a good case against this Tory government, or people will

:11:00. > :11:06.suffer. We cannot stand on the side, wringing our hands. Play it

:11:07. > :11:10.together. I understand that rallying call, but if there isn't an election

:11:11. > :11:16.or if there is but Mr Corbyn remains as leader, surely the situation is a

:11:17. > :11:21.leader who doesn't have the confidence of 80% of the

:11:22. > :11:26.parliamentary party. That is not sustainable. I understand that and

:11:27. > :11:33.it is a proper question. But listening to all the arguments over

:11:34. > :11:43.the last few weeks and in the PLP, I wonder if every MP would feel the

:11:44. > :11:46.same if we embarked upon a new party, isolating itself from the

:11:47. > :11:53.membership. If they do that, I wonder if you would keep the same

:11:54. > :11:57.vote. MPs have to look at themselves and say, let us get behind the guy

:11:58. > :12:02.or get rid of him, but get rid of him in the proper way. Most thought

:12:03. > :12:06.he would resign. It hasn't happened, so let's think through the

:12:07. > :12:10.consequences and avoid that civil war and deserting our own people in

:12:11. > :12:15.fighting against Tories. You wrote this morning that the last time

:12:16. > :12:19.Labour split, the gang of four in the 1980s, you ended up in

:12:20. > :12:23.opposition for 18 years. When you look at the situation at the moment,

:12:24. > :12:30.it is possible that split or un-split, if things continue the way

:12:31. > :12:39.they do, you would be in opposition for 18 years. That is a possibility.

:12:40. > :12:45.There are misconceptions people had. Many in the PLP assumed this man

:12:46. > :12:48.should go. OK, they expressed their opinion. But they thought he would

:12:49. > :12:53.just go quietly. That hasn't happened. If you go along this road

:12:54. > :12:58.and have another election, we are embarking upon those who are already

:12:59. > :13:03.talking about a separate PLP party, separated from the members. Blimey,

:13:04. > :13:07.think twice before you go down that road. We now it will be four years

:13:08. > :13:15.before the next election. Let's have more common sense. Remember, it s a

:13:16. > :13:20.whole party. One final question not wishing to make you more gloomy

:13:21. > :13:23.Isn't there a chance of things getting worse before they get

:13:24. > :13:29.better? We have the Chilcot report coming on Wednesday and we are being

:13:30. > :13:32.told that a number of leading Labour people, perhaps even Mr Corbyn

:13:33. > :13:42.himself, will brand Tony Blair is a war criminal. That can only make

:13:43. > :13:48.things worse, can't it? I agree It will make it worse, whatever they

:13:49. > :13:53.say. That is more the reason why bitter division in the PLP can only

:13:54. > :13:58.be made worse by angry statements about Iraq. We got it wrong on Iraq.

:13:59. > :14:05.Most people now recognise that, and a terrible price was paid. I cannot

:14:06. > :14:09.absolve myself from that. I sat in that cabinet. We can have a proper

:14:10. > :14:14.debate, but keep it less personal. Let's learn the lessons and avoid

:14:15. > :14:19.such a terrible situation, although frankly, we have been in other wars

:14:20. > :14:21.since then with the same feeling prevailing. John Prescott, thank you

:14:22. > :14:30.for being with us today. Helen, what is happening? The one

:14:31. > :14:33.thing I was missing there is a plan for what happens next. It is

:14:34. > :14:38.unlikely that people who have exited the Shadow Cabinet are going to go

:14:39. > :14:44.back into it. So if you are a Jeremy Corbyn supporter, what do you want?

:14:45. > :14:48.If you accept that there is no way, and that is what the negotiations

:14:49. > :14:51.are about, could you have an automatic place on the next ballot

:14:52. > :14:55.or would you have an agreement that someone like Clive Lewis would get

:14:56. > :15:00.onto next ballot? That would require Jeremy Corbyn to stand down. Yes, so

:15:01. > :15:03.if Corbyn stands again, it looks like he would win again with the

:15:04. > :15:06.members and there would be such a loss of hatred that the idea of

:15:07. > :15:11.anyone who ran against him that it would splinter the party. Chris

:15:12. > :15:14.Bryant was saying he didn't think it was a shoe in order that he would

:15:15. > :15:19.necessarily win with the members again. That is because there is

:15:20. > :15:23.polling that shows that support for Corbyn has slid backward. The polls

:15:24. > :15:28.put him against the other likely challengers and he beat all of them,

:15:29. > :15:32.but there was a sense in the vote that there were some who really

:15:33. > :15:35.wanted Jeremy Corbyn, but there were some who just didn't like the others

:15:36. > :15:39.and wanted something different. If there were a plausible person who

:15:40. > :15:44.was not Corbyn, they might go for that person. It was interesting that

:15:45. > :15:49.Don Prescott said that even if you are the incumbent -- John Prescott

:15:50. > :15:55.said that even if you are the income -- incumbent, you need the requisite

:15:56. > :16:00.number of MPs. That is hugely debated at the moment. It might go

:16:01. > :16:04.to the courts. That is all Labour bid now, for the Labour to be

:16:05. > :16:08.involved. They are between a rock and a hard place. Whether it is

:16:09. > :16:13.Clive Lewis or John Donald rather than Jeremy Corbyn versus Angela

:16:14. > :16:17.Eagle or whoever, the two tribes are now so far away from each other that

:16:18. > :16:21.the rubber band of the Labour Party has broken. We are now looking at

:16:22. > :16:25.two political parties eventually. It may take three months or three

:16:26. > :16:32.years, but I cannot see how those two wings can reconcile themselves.

:16:33. > :16:38.If Tom is right, the battle is who takes possession of the Labour

:16:39. > :16:43.brand. As a brand, it is more powerful than the conservative brand

:16:44. > :16:48.in some ways. And who has that brand automatically get at least 20% of

:16:49. > :16:53.the votes. It comes with the name. It does, but what is the brand? That

:16:54. > :16:57.is what goes to the heart of what this debate is about. There are a

:16:58. > :17:00.couple of other points. All credit to John Prescott for at least

:17:01. > :17:06.acknowledging that if this goes on, Labour could be out for another 18

:17:07. > :17:10.years. But what about these 40 MPs who are propping up Corbyn at the

:17:11. > :17:15.moment? I don't think enough scrutiny is being given to them At

:17:16. > :17:21.the end of the day, if they haemorrhaged away, Corbyn would have

:17:22. > :17:29.nobody left. I can't understand why very experienced senior figures like

:17:30. > :17:33.Andy Burnham are still helping him. That was the point Chris Bryant was

:17:34. > :17:37.making. Some of them apparently tried very hard to resign last week

:17:38. > :17:40.or tell Jeremy Corbyn they would if he didn't go, but they are now

:17:41. > :17:48.incapable of resigning cos he will not see them. There is a parallel to

:17:49. > :17:52.Article 50, which is Jeremy Corbyn's own article 50. As soon he stands

:17:53. > :17:59.down, he loses a lot of his bargaining ability. But what is the

:18:00. > :18:06.mood on the left of the Labour Party? Is it to stick it out with

:18:07. > :18:10.Jeremy Corbyn, or is it to accept that that is not working and get

:18:11. > :18:18.someone else from a more credible left-wing leader into place? My

:18:19. > :18:22.sense is that it is fracturing. You will end up with a rump of people

:18:23. > :18:25.who just want Jeremy Corbyn, they don't care about anything else. They

:18:26. > :18:29.joined to vote for him and they will leave the party when he goes. But

:18:30. > :18:36.there is a bigger group of people who want somebody who they feel is

:18:37. > :18:43.authentically left wing, but they are not wedded to it being Corbyn.

:18:44. > :18:47.That is what is changing. There has been bleeding of support from Corbyn

:18:48. > :18:56.himself. But also, the extent to which Corbyn is being propped up by

:18:57. > :19:10.a few figures, I am hearing that he wants to go but is being forced to

:19:11. > :19:15.stay. Do we know if that is true? People around him are saying, if you

:19:16. > :19:22.go, Alec experiment about this part of the party being in charge will be

:19:23. > :19:26.destroyed. Do you agree with that? I wonder. If you are the leader of a

:19:27. > :19:38.political party and you want to go, you go. Every time Jeremy Corbyn

:19:39. > :19:44.turns up at a rally in Parliamentary 's -- Parliament Square with

:19:45. > :19:48.thousands screaming for him, it makes him feel good and gives him

:19:49. > :19:53.hope. It makes him think that, I know it looks bad, but there are

:19:54. > :19:57.still people who love me. There is also a genuine principle thing,

:19:58. > :20:01.which is that he was elected by people who were not represent by the

:20:02. > :20:06.Labour Party as it was, and he feels a sense of responsibility to them.

:20:07. > :20:12.And with Chilcot coming out on Wednesday morning, it can only make

:20:13. > :20:15.it worse. Absolutely. There is a lot of speculation at Westminster that

:20:16. > :20:19.Jeremy Corbyn is only holding on until then so that he can stand up

:20:20. > :20:26.in the House of Commons and say that Tony Blair should be tried for war

:20:27. > :20:30.crimes. Possibly, he wants his big moment and will disappear after

:20:31. > :20:38.that. Or he may get reinvigorated by it. This is fascinating. All those

:20:39. > :20:47.people who are saying Jeremy should go, he was the position to Tony

:20:48. > :20:51.Blair within his own party -- he was the opposition. What are we going to

:20:52. > :20:55.learn from Chilcot? That Tony Blair got it wrong? They're zealots on

:20:56. > :20:59.both sides who will want to fight this out. Whether we learn anything

:21:00. > :21:06.or not is another matter. I suggest it is fuel on the Labour fire. But

:21:07. > :21:13.it doesn't change the positions we know will be confirmed. But if the

:21:14. > :21:16.leader of the Labour opposition calls on a former neighbour Prime

:21:17. > :21:21.Minister to be treated as a war criminal, that is history in

:21:22. > :21:28.anybody's books. That is one thing keeping the Labour Party avoided,

:21:29. > :21:30.the mistakes over Iraq. People are in one camp or the other. We shall

:21:31. > :21:32.leave it there. The Daily Politics is on all next

:21:33. > :21:37.week on BBC Two. I'm back here next Sunday

:21:38. > :21:41.at 11am on BBC One. Remember - if it's Sunday,

:21:42. > :21:51.it's the Sunday Politics.