:00:38. > :00:43.Jeremy Corbyn will be challenged for the Labour Party leadership
:00:44. > :00:46.by his former shadow cabinet colleague, Angela Eagle.
:00:47. > :00:49.So what makes her so sure she can win?
:00:50. > :00:55.She's the favoured candidate of Tory MPs, but will Theresa May win over
:00:56. > :00:59.the party's grassroots to become the next Prime Minister?
:01:00. > :01:02.And if she makes it to Number 1 , what will her premiership be like?
:01:03. > :01:06.We'll hear from May-supporter, Chris Grayling.
:01:07. > :01:09.And after two tumultuous weeks following the referendum result
:01:10. > :01:12.a leading Remain campaign insider gives us her candid account
:01:13. > :01:21.A report suggests poverty is worse in outer London than inner.
:01:22. > :01:39.Have the suburbs been sacrificed as inner London enjoys a gold rush?
:01:40. > :01:45.And with me - Janan Ganesh, Helen Lewis and Isabel Oakeshott to
:01:46. > :01:47.help guide us through the political maelstrom - they'll be tweeting
:01:48. > :01:53.throughout the programme using the hashtag #bbcsp.
:01:54. > :01:55.The battle to take over from David Cameron as Conservative Party
:01:56. > :01:58.leader and Prime Minister has rapidly moved into its final phase
:01:59. > :02:00.- a vote of Conservative Party members who must choose
:02:01. > :02:03.between the Home Secretary and remain supporter Theresa May,
:02:04. > :02:05.and the business minister and Leave campaigner Andrea Leadsom.
:02:06. > :02:07.Speaking at the launch of her campaign, Theresa May said
:02:08. > :02:13.she wanted to unite the Conservative Party - and the country.
:02:14. > :02:16.If ever there was a time for a Prime Minister who is ready
:02:17. > :02:20.and able to do the job from day one, this is it.
:02:21. > :02:24.We have immediate work to do, to restore political stability
:02:25. > :02:29.To bring together the party and the country.
:02:30. > :02:31.And to negotiate a sensible and orderly departure
:02:32. > :02:38.But more than that, we have a mission to make Britain
:02:39. > :02:41.a country that works, not for the privileged and not
:02:42. > :02:48.for the few, but for every one of our citizens.
:02:49. > :02:50.I've been joined by the leader of the commons, Chris Grayling,
:02:51. > :02:53.who was one of four cabinet ministers to campaign to leave
:02:54. > :02:55.the EU but who is now supporting Theresa May -
:02:56. > :03:10.Why are you supporting Mrs May as a Leaver? The key thing is having a
:03:11. > :03:15.person who is right for the job David Cameron chose to step aside, I
:03:16. > :03:19.regret that. We need someone to step into his shoes in whom I have
:03:20. > :03:23.confidence that they will deliver Brexit. I have known Theresa for a
:03:24. > :03:27.long time. She is a determined politician. Having got a mandate
:03:28. > :03:32.from the public to deliver Brexit, she will do that. What assurances
:03:33. > :03:38.have you sought from her? I have sought assurances that she means
:03:39. > :03:42.Brexit is Brexit. The country has spoken. The country has given us a
:03:43. > :03:46.clear direction to follow. The next Prime Minister has to follow that
:03:47. > :03:51.Matt and I am confident that Theresa May is committed to that. But Brexit
:03:52. > :03:59.can mean one of several things. They're of a. So what do you say to
:04:00. > :04:03.Tory twos, who were on your side, that she will water down the Brexit
:04:04. > :04:09.terms? That is not right. It is not just me, we have a range of Tory
:04:10. > :04:14.Leavers who are backing her, because we think she has the weight and
:04:15. > :04:16.experience to deliver. But I am not sure what assurances you have got
:04:17. > :04:23.that she will deliver as you would want her to. For example, can you
:04:24. > :04:27.guarantee to our viewers that she will not settle for a British
:04:28. > :04:33.version of Norway's relationship with the EU, or Switzerland's
:04:34. > :04:39.relationship? We have said all along that we want a UK solution. It is
:04:40. > :04:43.not about trying to replicate someone else. We have a clear
:04:44. > :04:47.mandate to end the principle of unfettered free movement in the UK
:04:48. > :04:54.from elsewhere in the European Union. We saw Lily 200,000 people
:04:55. > :04:59.arrive in the UK last year. The British public want that to change.
:05:00. > :05:05.Theresa May palmist "Control of free movement. That needn't be the same
:05:06. > :05:09.as the end of free movement. What does she mean? That is what we
:05:10. > :05:14.campaigned on for four and a half months, taking back control. What I
:05:15. > :05:18.find unacceptable is that we cannot control the flow of people into the
:05:19. > :05:21.country. There will be times when we need to recruit particular skills
:05:22. > :05:26.and we need to allow people to move within businesses. We need to have a
:05:27. > :05:30.managed system. It is all about control. It is about our government
:05:31. > :05:35.being able to decide when, how and where the number of people who can
:05:36. > :05:39.come and live and work in the UK. But for some EU citizens, would
:05:40. > :05:45.there still be an automatic right to compare? It will depend on what our
:05:46. > :05:49.rules are. The whole point is that it is about control. At the moment,
:05:50. > :05:53.we cannot set limits on the number of people who live and work here.
:05:54. > :05:59.The clear mandate from the British public, something that Theresa
:06:00. > :06:04.recognised and said so in her opening speech last week we have to
:06:05. > :06:09.take back control of our migration. But we don't know what that means.
:06:10. > :06:13.It means our parliament being able to set limits on the number of
:06:14. > :06:19.people who can live and work here. What sort of limits? That will be
:06:20. > :06:23.decided depending on whether we have skills needs, housing shortages and
:06:24. > :06:26.circumstances. None of us think we will erect barricades at Dover and
:06:27. > :06:32.nobody can ever live and work in the UK. But it is fundamental that
:06:33. > :06:37.ultimate control should reside with our government. Why do you trust has
:06:38. > :06:40.me on free movement when after six years at the Home Office, she
:06:41. > :06:47.couldn't even get non-EU debt migration below 100,000, which was
:06:48. > :06:51.the promise, never mind overall net migration? First of all, we spent
:06:52. > :06:57.five of those six years in coalition with the Liberal Democrats. She was
:06:58. > :07:00.not stopped from doing anything We have just passed our first
:07:01. > :07:04.conservative only immigration act that will allow us to close the bank
:07:05. > :07:08.accounts and taking away the driving licences of people who overstate.
:07:09. > :07:14.One of the problems is people who come here legitimately for a short
:07:15. > :07:18.time, but never go. But she was so far out. Net migration was three
:07:19. > :07:21.times the target she agreed to six years ago. Why would you trust her
:07:22. > :07:27.to get it right when so far, she's got it wrong? If you look at the
:07:28. > :07:32.flow of migrants from inside the European Union, she had no ability
:07:33. > :07:35.to control that. But she has not controlled those from outside. We
:07:36. > :07:38.have just passed our first Conservative only immigration act.
:07:39. > :07:45.There have been limits to what we could do in coalition. As Theresa
:07:46. > :07:48.May herself said the other day, it is difficult because people are
:07:49. > :07:52.constantly looking for new ways around our system. I believe the
:07:53. > :07:59.acts we past two months ago will make a difference. Were our borders
:08:00. > :08:04.safer under Mrs May than they were in 2010? Our borders are safe in
:08:05. > :08:09.terms of counterterrorism. What has she done to make us safer? A huge
:08:10. > :08:13.amount has been done to protect our borders. In Calais, we now have a
:08:14. > :08:17.much better system of border control. We have been able to resist
:08:18. > :08:21.enormous pressure from people who want to come in illegally. What has
:08:22. > :08:29.she done to make British borders safer? She'd traduced new measures
:08:30. > :08:31.on the immigration front -- introduced new measures. She
:08:32. > :08:35.negotiated international agreements so that Abu Qatada was ported to
:08:36. > :08:42.Jordan. In my view, she has done a huge amount to improve the security
:08:43. > :08:47.services. As Home Secretary, she is responsible for MI5. They have done
:08:48. > :08:53.a fantastic job protecting us. Will she rule out a second referendum?
:08:54. > :08:58.There is no question of a second referendum. One of her supporters,
:08:59. > :09:01.Dominic Grieve, says people can change their minds. We are all clear
:09:02. > :09:05.that there is not going to be a second referendum. We can't just say
:09:06. > :09:09.to the British public, we don't like what you said, so we are going to
:09:10. > :09:15.ask again. Those of us who campaigned for Leave would not serve
:09:16. > :09:22.in a government that chucked away the first result and decided to have
:09:23. > :09:26.another go. Speaking of the campaign, do you regard the promises
:09:27. > :09:35.vote leaves made during the referendum as sacrosanct? I said to
:09:36. > :09:39.you that a campaign group can only make recommendations. But you made a
:09:40. > :09:42.number of promises. You promised explicitly that the status of EU
:09:43. > :09:47.citizens already here would not change. Mrs May is not promising
:09:48. > :09:51.that. I cannot conceive of a situation where we want to end the
:09:52. > :09:58.rights of EU citizens who are here to not remain. There are always
:09:59. > :10:03.individual circumstances... But she is talking about them being a
:10:04. > :10:07.bargaining chip. You said during the campaign, there will be no change
:10:08. > :10:11.for EU citizens already lawfully resident in the UK. Mrs May is not
:10:12. > :10:16.saying that. For those who have been more than five years in the UK, that
:10:17. > :10:20.is legally the case. But we want to make sure we can protect our own
:10:21. > :10:25.citizens in other EU countries. It is right that a UK Government should
:10:26. > :10:29.have its own system. But during the campaign, you never said there will
:10:30. > :10:33.be no change to EU citizens here, provided the EU looks after our
:10:34. > :10:38.citizens over there. That was never a condition. Now are you saying it
:10:39. > :10:41.is? I don't think there will be any change on either side. Everyone will
:10:42. > :10:45.take a grown-up approach might it would be too damaging to do
:10:46. > :10:53.otherwise. But we must look after the interests of our own citizens.
:10:54. > :10:55.So why doesn't she say that? She says she doesn't want to agree
:10:56. > :11:00.anything until she sees how they treat our citizens. Are you
:11:01. > :11:04.comfortable with the line she has taken? The only people who support
:11:05. > :11:10.her on this are the BNP. She has said what I have said. I am
:11:11. > :11:14.expecting all it is except those who have committed criminal offences to
:11:15. > :11:19.be able to stay -- all EU citizens. That is right and proper, but we
:11:20. > :11:26.must make sure we can look after the rights of new cases and is. Has Mrs
:11:27. > :11:31.May guaranteed to you that we will be out of the EU by the next general
:11:32. > :11:35.election? She has said we will trigger article 50 around the end of
:11:36. > :11:39.this year. There is then a two-year time frame and the next general
:11:40. > :11:47.election is 2020. So I can't see any circumstance in which we would not
:11:48. > :11:50.leave by then. Gone by 2020. Chris Grayling, thank you.
:11:51. > :11:52.After a protracted campaign of resignations, a massive vote
:11:53. > :11:55.of no confidence from his MPs, and an attempt by his deputy
:11:56. > :11:58.to negotiate some sort of compromise deal with the unions,
:11:59. > :12:06.it's now clear the Jeremy Corbyn will face a leadership challenge.
:12:07. > :12:11.Some suspected it might fizzle out, but Angela Eagle has finally
:12:12. > :12:17.announced she will go for the top job after all, saying she wants to
:12:18. > :12:23.explain her vision for the country. It comes after Labour's deputy
:12:24. > :12:26.leader Tom Watson called off a debate over Jeremy Corbyn's future,
:12:27. > :12:30.saying there was no realistic prospect of reaching a compromise
:12:31. > :12:34.because of this to Corbyn's refusal to stand down. That provoked an
:12:35. > :12:40.angry response from Unite leader Len McCluskey, who said Tom Watson's
:12:41. > :12:44.actions today can only look like an act of sabotage, fraught with peril
:12:45. > :12:48.for the future of the Labour Party. So what happens now? Angela Eagle
:12:49. > :12:54.needs to get the backing of 20% of MPs and MEPs. The magic and Amber is
:12:55. > :12:58.currently 51. There is also the prospect of another senior Labour
:12:59. > :13:03.figure like Owen Smith throwing his hat into the ring. The big question
:13:04. > :13:06.remains over whether Jeremy Corbyn automatically gets onto the ballot,
:13:07. > :13:10.or whether he needs to get 51 nominations himself, a difficult
:13:11. > :13:17.task, given that the Labour leader lost the vote of no-confidence among
:13:18. > :13:21.his MPs by 172 votes to 40. But if he does get on the ballot paper it
:13:22. > :13:25.is Angela Eagle who has the difficult job. Over a quarter of a
:13:26. > :13:29.million people voted for Mr Corbyn in the last Labour leadership
:13:30. > :13:33.election. Nearly 60% of the vote. Since the EU referendum, nearly
:13:34. > :13:39.130,000 people have joined the Labour Party. But it is unclear how
:13:40. > :13:41.many of them want to help or hinder Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.
:13:42. > :13:43.Jeremy Corbyn appeared on the Andrew Marr programme
:13:44. > :13:46.a little earlier on BBC One - and was in no mood
:13:47. > :13:49.Why time-limit a leadership when I've been elected
:13:50. > :13:52.by a very large number of members and supporters
:13:53. > :14:00.an election somewhere results in a different leader,
:14:01. > :14:03.But I would be irresponsible if I walked away
:14:04. > :14:06.from a mandate that I was given and a responsibility I was given.
:14:07. > :14:09.I ask colleagues to respect that as well.
:14:10. > :14:23.Why are you challenging Jeremy Corbyn for the Labour leadership? I
:14:24. > :14:28.think it's clear that he has lost the confidence of MPs in the
:14:29. > :14:31.parliamentary party. Tom Watson Howard deputy leader, who has his
:14:32. > :14:36.own mandate Rosie Winterton, the Chief Whip, John Quire, the chair of
:14:37. > :14:41.the Parliamentary Labour Party and a friend of Jeremy's, have been going
:14:42. > :14:45.to try to say to him that he needs the confidence of the Parliamentary
:14:46. > :14:49.party to continue. He's not listening. You can't leave behind an
:14:50. > :14:53.office door. Maybe he is not listening because he has a huge
:14:54. > :14:58.mandate from the party membership. As Labour leader, he has won every
:14:59. > :15:01.by-election and he has won the London mayoral election, the largest
:15:02. > :15:05.party in the local governor elections. Why wouldn't he carry on?
:15:06. > :15:11.We lost seats in the local government elections when we have a
:15:12. > :15:15.Conservative government. We should be doing better. Polling shows that
:15:16. > :15:20.we are 7% behind the Conservatives, even after all the tumult they have
:15:21. > :15:26.been through and more importantly, we lost the EU referendum.
:15:27. > :15:33.That was not his fault. No, but he wasn't connecting with Labour voters
:15:34. > :15:37.and he did not put the argument across, and so I think we need a
:15:38. > :15:43.strengthened Labour Party and an opposition which can unite so we can
:15:44. > :15:47.heal the country. Unfortunately I don't think Jeremy Corbyn can do
:15:48. > :15:56.that job. Other than Trident, what are the major policy differences?
:15:57. > :16:00.I'm on the left, any party IDs will be anti-austerity, what has happened
:16:01. > :16:06.in our heartlands, they have been hit by six years of Conservative
:16:07. > :16:14.cuts -- any party I lead. That is Jeremy Corbyn, that is his position,
:16:15. > :16:19.as well, what are the differences? I want to be a strong united
:16:20. > :16:22.opposition to get into government. Jeremy was asked in that interview
:16:23. > :16:27.three times whether he thought he could win a general election and he
:16:28. > :16:32.did not say yes. For our supporters and for the people we came into
:16:33. > :16:35.politics to represent, we need a Labour Party that can position
:16:36. > :16:40.itself as a strong united opposition and win a general election. In your
:16:41. > :16:45.view that is having a leader as a winner, but what are the major
:16:46. > :16:51.policy differences? I don't think Jeremy has managed to get across a
:16:52. > :16:55.strategy for winning. I'm on the left and my politics came out of
:16:56. > :17:02.what happened when I was growing up when my parents, they were prevented
:17:03. > :17:08.from fulfilling their opportunities because we had Labour governments I
:17:09. > :17:12.was able to fulfil mind, and I want a Labour Party that can deliver
:17:13. > :17:19.that. Jeremy does not talk about that. We will move on. He is the
:17:20. > :17:20.incumbent leader, should he not be on the ballot against you as a
:17:21. > :17:39.right? The Labour Party rules and the way it is done, and Jeremy
:17:40. > :17:48.Chardy know this, Tony Benn challenged Neil Kinnock in 1988 --
:17:49. > :17:52.Jeremy should know this. It is not clear he had to do this. Neil
:17:53. > :17:57.Kinnock can't remember if he had to do this, or whether he did it to
:17:58. > :18:02.show the strength. Putting aside the roles, most people watching this
:18:03. > :18:06.programme, not just Jeremy Corbyn fans, they will find it strange that
:18:07. > :18:10.the man who won the leadership fairly and decisively, now
:18:11. > :18:14.challenged by you, is not automatically allowed to defend his
:18:15. > :18:17.title? That is not clear from the Labour Party rules, the National
:18:18. > :18:23.executive committee will make a decision on that. Anyone who aspires
:18:24. > :18:28.to lead the Parliamentary party who can't get 51 members, 20% of the
:18:29. > :18:32.Parliamentary party, to back them, they are not going to be able to do
:18:33. > :18:36.the job properly and we are in challenging times, the Brexit vote,
:18:37. > :18:40.a government which has gone missing in action. We need a strong lead
:18:41. > :18:44.from the Labour Party if we are going to protect our communities who
:18:45. > :18:50.are going to be the hardest hit Nothing of that lead is coming from
:18:51. > :18:55.Jeremy at the moment. You are the self-styled party of fairness, don't
:18:56. > :18:59.you think it will offend against natural justice against most
:19:00. > :19:03.people's idea of fairness if the incumbent who is challenged by you
:19:04. > :19:10.is not allowed to fight you in an election? Work that seem incredible?
:19:11. > :19:16.Forget the rules, just offends against fairness. I don't know what
:19:17. > :19:21.the outcome is going to be of the decision-making process. I'm ready
:19:22. > :19:26.to fight a leadership challenge and have debates about the future of our
:19:27. > :19:31.party with anyone, Jeremy or anyone else who seeks to stand. Len
:19:32. > :19:37.McCluskey, the most important person in the Labour Party, perhaps. Not
:19:38. > :19:42.say that. I have a lot of respect him, but that is a big perhaps. He
:19:43. > :19:49.says keeping Jeremy Corbyn of the ballot would cause lasting division
:19:50. > :19:53.in the party. It would. This is not about the Labour Party being split,
:19:54. > :19:58.this is about it being an effective and united opposition to make our
:19:59. > :20:01.democracy work so we can challenge is Conservative government which has
:20:02. > :20:07.done such damage with the Brexit vote. I want to say that if you
:20:08. > :20:12.think we should have a strong and effective Labour Party and a strong
:20:13. > :20:17.democracy, challenging the Conservatives, join the Labour Party
:20:18. > :20:22.now. Do it today, you can do it online. 130,000 new members have
:20:23. > :20:29.joined Labour since the referendum. Who are they? The Labour Party
:20:30. > :20:35.nationally knows who they are. Have they been vetted? I have no idea at
:20:36. > :20:41.what the Labour Party office are doing about the new members. But it
:20:42. > :20:46.is important that people who think that we need a strong opposition,
:20:47. > :20:53.jaundiced battle now, joined the Labour Party, make us stronger -
:20:54. > :20:57.join this battle now. The 130,0 0 people who have joined already, they
:20:58. > :21:00.should be allowed to vote? That is a matter for the National if sect of
:21:01. > :21:06.committee to decide, they were in the past. -- National executive
:21:07. > :21:12.committee. There is no point in them joining if they can't. We opened up
:21:13. > :21:20.the ?3 membership which was a feature the last campaign. 150, 00
:21:21. > :21:23.people are going to be picking the next Conservative Prime Minister, we
:21:24. > :21:28.have had nearly that number joining in the last week. Jeremy Corbyn
:21:29. > :21:34.would say he won by over 235,00 voting for him. You expect to be the
:21:35. > :21:41.only challenger? I have no idea What about Owen Smith? We have
:21:42. > :21:43.spoken, but not recently, I've got no idea, I'm concentrating on
:21:44. > :21:49.launching my campaign which I will be doing tomorrow. It would be
:21:50. > :21:54.absurd for you and Owen Smith or someone else from the middle of the
:21:55. > :22:01.party, the moderate left, to split the anti-Corbyn vote? We have got to
:22:02. > :22:06.get on with doing our planning and see what happens in the future. I'm
:22:07. > :22:10.concentrating on getting my campaign up and running, launching it
:22:11. > :22:15.tomorrow, and joining a battle to have a stronger and united Labour
:22:16. > :22:23.Party which can give hope back to our country. You voted for the Iraq
:22:24. > :22:27.war. Do you regret that? I do, and if I had known what I know now, I
:22:28. > :22:31.would not have supported it. The important thing from the Chilcot
:22:32. > :22:37.Report is that we learn the lessons of that so those mistakes can never
:22:38. > :22:40.be made again in the future. John Prescott this morning, he also voted
:22:41. > :22:47.for it, he says he now regards the war as illegal. Chilcot has not said
:22:48. > :22:52.that. I'm asking you. It is important that we learn the lessons.
:22:53. > :22:56.Do you think it was illegal? The evidence at the time and the
:22:57. > :22:58.Attorney General's opinion at the time was not to that effect and it
:22:59. > :23:04.is no good trying to second-guess what happened subsequently. We need
:23:05. > :23:07.to learn the lessons and we need to make sure that if anything like that
:23:08. > :23:13.happens in the future we have more robust ways of testing these
:23:14. > :23:18.assertions, but I also think we have a country divided at the moment You
:23:19. > :23:23.have said that. Very uncertain about the future. You have said that. We
:23:24. > :23:28.have got to address those problems. I understand that. But forgive me,
:23:29. > :23:33.we have not got much time, they will be a motion before Parliament next
:23:34. > :23:37.week holding Tony Blair for contempt of Parliament because of Iraq, how
:23:38. > :23:42.will you vote? I have not seen the motion yet. We have got to make
:23:43. > :23:47.certain that we don't spend our time in Parliament exacting revenge and I
:23:48. > :23:52.think Tony Blair has been put rightly through the mill about the
:23:53. > :23:57.decisions he took, the Chilcot Report did that, and I think we
:23:58. > :23:59.should... We would be far better at learning the lessons and making
:24:00. > :24:05.certain that we don't fall into the same mistakes if God forbid they
:24:06. > :24:12.should be a future occasion where these decisions are made. -- there.
:24:13. > :24:15.Final question, you talk about uniting Labour and the country,
:24:16. > :24:21.taking on the Tories, but if you lose and Jeremy Corbyn wins or the
:24:22. > :24:23.reverse, isn't there a clear indication that your party could be
:24:24. > :24:30.heading for a serious schism? Either way. We need to heal the party under
:24:31. > :24:34.effective leadership, so we can have a chance of winning the general
:24:35. > :24:40.election which might come much sooner than we all think. And that
:24:41. > :24:48.is my main aim with launching this leadership campaign. If he wins you
:24:49. > :24:51.will accept the result? You have to accept the result of any... You
:24:52. > :24:56.would go back into the Shadow Cabinet? You have to accept the
:24:57. > :25:00.result of any democratic process but I'm focused on winning this and I'm
:25:01. > :25:03.not going to speculate about what happens afterwards. Angela Eagle,
:25:04. > :25:08.busy summer head, thank you. It's clear the battle inside Labour
:25:09. > :25:11.is about to get nasty - in the last hour, the MP
:25:12. > :25:14.who initiated the vote of no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn,
:25:15. > :25:16.Margaret Hodge, had this to say I'm beginning to think he's
:25:17. > :25:21.actually a devious man, who is more concerned
:25:22. > :25:23.with destroying the Labour Party than he is with creating a force
:25:24. > :25:27.that can win an election in such difficult times and which
:25:28. > :25:41.will unite the party. There we are. We have heard from
:25:42. > :25:49.Chris Grayling and Angela Eagle and Jeremy Corbyn this morning. Helen,
:25:50. > :25:55.whatever the outcome, it looks like this ends badly for Labour. It is
:25:56. > :25:58.very interesting. In the new statesman we did an issue about
:25:59. > :26:04.whether Labour should split, and we said, no, but are now talking to
:26:05. > :26:10.Labour MPs who are openly talking about this, people who are tribally
:26:11. > :26:15.Labour and are not metropolitan they are saying this cannot be sewn
:26:16. > :26:19.back together. The big question if Jeremy Corbyn gets on the ballot and
:26:20. > :26:22.gets 50 MPs, I think he will win, but if he doesn't get on, that
:26:23. > :26:27.becomes a case of his faction splitting off, so the battle is ..
:26:28. > :26:32.Everyone is imagining a split, but it is who gets left with custody of
:26:33. > :26:37.the party. Control of the Labour brand, which is powerful. The union
:26:38. > :26:43.funding is on a downward slope, already, the trade union is going to
:26:44. > :26:47.reduce that further, Labour have had very little success with big donors
:26:48. > :26:53.under Jeremy Corbyn. There is a fundamental force at work. The
:26:54. > :26:55.party's grassroots once a different Labour Parliamentary party and the
:26:56. > :27:00.Parliamentary Labour Party would like a different grassroots. One or
:27:01. > :27:05.the other has to go its own way You can't reconcile them. The texture of
:27:06. > :27:09.the grassroots has changed in the past year, since the party was
:27:10. > :27:13.opened up by Ed Miliband to new members. It might be changing in the
:27:14. > :27:20.other direction even as we speak 130,000 new members since June, the
:27:21. > :27:23.equivalent of the size of the Tory party, it is possible the bulk of
:27:24. > :27:26.those people are people that might be, since the referendum campaign,
:27:27. > :27:33.might want a party that is moderate. We don't know that. Angela Eagle is
:27:34. > :27:38.taking a punt on the idea that those are relatively centrist voters, but
:27:39. > :27:42.what I'd take from her and Owen Smith, is not a massive amount of
:27:43. > :27:47.enthusiasm for running for this big ship, they don't radiate glee at the
:27:48. > :27:50.prospect of becoming leader, so I wonder if the idea is to have an
:27:51. > :27:53.interim leader who is moderate and then before 2020 and onto someone
:27:54. > :28:02.who they think can win a general election. It is a big part on her
:28:03. > :28:07.part. She sounded so miserable. -- punt. She sounded very depressed
:28:08. > :28:11.about the idea of launching aided ship contest and that is because
:28:12. > :28:16.there is no resolution to this. -- launching a leadership contest. If
:28:17. > :28:23.she wins it is a pyrrhic victory, but if she loses, it won't be
:28:24. > :28:27.resolved, and it feels like it will not be resolved until the next
:28:28. > :28:30.general election, when the public and determine what kind of Labour
:28:31. > :28:36.MPs they both like to fight for that election. It could be a bloodbath.
:28:37. > :28:41.Last year it was quite lively, and this year, there might be a lot of
:28:42. > :28:46.screaming at the Labour Party conference. It would be worth the
:28:47. > :28:54.price of admission to both party conferences this autumn.
:28:55. > :28:57.The referendum result came as a shock to many, not least those
:28:58. > :29:00.Lucy Thomas was deputy director of Britain Stronger In.
:29:01. > :29:03.In an exclusive for the Sunday Politics, she talks to fellow
:29:04. > :29:05.campaign insiders about how the referendum was lost.
:29:06. > :29:07.We are absolutely clear now that there is no way
:29:08. > :29:12.Right up until the end, we thought Remain could win.
:29:13. > :29:17.I'm Lucy Thomas, and I was deputy director of that campaign,
:29:18. > :29:20.and one of those that was there from the beginning.
:29:21. > :29:22.This is the story of what we did and why,
:29:23. > :29:25.but why, in the end, it wasn't enough.
:29:26. > :29:28.So let's go back to where it started.
:29:29. > :29:30.We launched Britain Stronger In Europe on a cold October morning
:29:31. > :29:40.Cue the usual jokes about our organisation.
:29:41. > :29:44.We set out to persuade people that Britain was stronger,
:29:45. > :29:47.safer and better off in Europe than we would be out on our own
:29:48. > :29:50.and that leaving was a leap in the dark, a risk
:29:51. > :29:55.As a nation of Eurosceptics, we always knew it would be tough,
:29:56. > :30:00.but I'm not sure we were prepared for what the early research showed.
:30:01. > :30:02.When we presented that and we discussed it
:30:03. > :30:04.with you and the team, I think everybody sort
:30:05. > :30:08.God, this is going to be harder than we thought.
:30:09. > :30:11.So we built a campaign based on numbers.
:30:12. > :30:14.It's the economy, stupid, and it had been proven to work
:30:15. > :30:18.in the Scottish referendum and the general election.
:30:19. > :30:26.One of the reasons why some of the specific warnings
:30:27. > :30:29.would have bounced off people was because it sounded
:30:30. > :30:31.like scaremongering, because it wasn't evidence.
:30:32. > :30:33.It was just saying, if we vote to leave,
:30:34. > :30:36.it will cost this many jobs or this much growth
:30:37. > :30:43.And people said they were crying out to hear from the experts.
:30:44. > :30:47.to economists, scientists to defence chiefs, they all spoke
:30:48. > :30:52.for themselves, and the weight of expert opinion was overwhelming.
:30:53. > :30:57.if the UK was to leave the European Union.
:30:58. > :31:00.Material slowdown in growth, notable increase in inflation.
:31:01. > :31:06.In a sense, we were the victims of our own success in the early
:31:07. > :31:08.part of the campaign, because we landed our economic
:31:09. > :31:16.We pushed the Leave campaign from Norway to Canada to Albania,
:31:17. > :31:19.and then finally pushed them entirely off the single market.
:31:20. > :31:21.Of course, what it meant was that that was the moment
:31:22. > :31:25.Nigel Farage's approach to this referendum, and to make it
:31:26. > :31:32.Imagine what will happen to public services...
:31:33. > :31:35.When I first saw their PPB, the one with all the arrows
:31:36. > :31:39.implying that millions of people from all sorts of countries
:31:40. > :31:42.including Turkey and possibly other countries that aren't in the EU
:31:43. > :31:45.are going to come and move to Britain, and I showed
:31:46. > :31:48.that to focus groups, it was very powerful,
:31:49. > :31:51.because it captured the anxiety and fear and emotion
:31:52. > :31:54.people have at the prospect of being overwhelmed
:31:55. > :31:59.and these are all terms I would hear in the focus groups.
:32:00. > :32:06.and the literature that was used off the back of it was very powerful.
:32:07. > :32:11.I also knew, of course, that it was purposefully choosing
:32:12. > :32:16.So we always knew that immigration was a problem,
:32:17. > :32:26.around this table, that lots of the discussions were heard.
:32:27. > :32:29.Some wondered, was there more we could do to get EU leaders
:32:30. > :32:31.to show more flexibility on free movement, maybe?
:32:32. > :32:34.But to others, that meant fighting the rest of the campaign
:32:35. > :32:38.on immigration, when we needed for it to be back on the economy.
:32:39. > :32:41.If you could solve the problem of free movement, it would have been
:32:42. > :32:46.If you can't solve the problem of immigration, moving
:32:47. > :32:48.on to immigration might make things worse, not better.
:32:49. > :32:55.But given what we did know, it made sense to stick to the economy.
:32:56. > :32:57.But it became clear that for some people,
:32:58. > :33:00.that economic risk didn't mean anything.
:33:01. > :33:04.I spoke to one man in my constituency who was out one day,
:33:05. > :33:09.He was voting to leave because of all those concerns
:33:10. > :33:17."I understand your concerns about that.
:33:18. > :33:19.What do you think about the argument that leaving would be
:33:20. > :33:23.he said, "What do I care about the economy?
:33:24. > :33:29.There are lots of people in Britain who do feel passed over,
:33:30. > :33:33.They don't see what the future could hold for them or their children
:33:34. > :33:40.This referendum was a chance to attach that anger to the EU.
:33:41. > :33:47.Shouldn't Labour have been able to reach out to those voters?
:33:48. > :33:51.The brutal truth is that the leader of the Labour Party did not
:33:52. > :33:55.campaign with authenticity, passion, conviction
:33:56. > :34:03.He said he was for Remain, but it was on quite a narrow basis,
:34:04. > :34:10.in terms of what the broader argument could be.
:34:11. > :34:15.Polling took place during the campaign that showed half
:34:16. > :34:21.that our official position was for Remain.
:34:22. > :34:24.So I think more could have been done, yes.
:34:25. > :34:27.And whether it was true or not, the Leave campaign was determined
:34:28. > :34:34.The power of the 350 million a week can't be overstated.
:34:35. > :34:37.In focus groups, it is quite unusual for floating voters who aren't
:34:38. > :34:41.interested in politics to have internalised a campaign fact
:34:42. > :34:45.or number so that it comes out spontaneously, and it did.
:34:46. > :34:48.When we would say, have you noticed that some people are saying that
:34:49. > :34:52.isn't actually true, people would say, "Vaguely,
:34:53. > :34:55.but it's still a very big number, isn't it?"
:34:56. > :35:02.In the final debate, just days before the vote,
:35:03. > :35:05.the Leave campaign came armed with their catch-all phrase
:35:06. > :35:09.Taking back control of our country and our system.
:35:10. > :35:15.We can take back control over our laws.
:35:16. > :35:17.We can take back control over our taxes.
:35:18. > :35:20.We can take back control over our borders,
:35:21. > :35:30.They were being presented with a simple solution, which was,
:35:31. > :35:32.if you think this is a problem and migration is putting pressures
:35:33. > :35:35.on our public services and jobs we can take back control.
:35:36. > :35:38.The way I would put it was that we had a complex truth
:35:39. > :35:44.up against a simple lie, and we see what happened.
:35:45. > :35:49.And what happened will be talked about for decades.
:35:50. > :35:51.Though we built the biggest ever cross-party, cross-sector campaign
:35:52. > :35:57.with over 40,000 volunteers, we didn't win the day.
:35:58. > :35:59.This was a campaign where experts were dismissed
:36:00. > :36:01.and conventional wisdom thrown out of the window
:36:02. > :36:11.Many doubt if campaigns will ever be the same again.
:36:12. > :36:16.And Matthew Elliott from Vote Leave will be looking at how their
:36:17. > :36:22.campaign won the referendum on the Daily Politics. Isabel, having
:36:23. > :36:26.looked at that and seen what they are now saying, I now find myself
:36:27. > :36:31.surprised that Remain lost by only four percentage points. Right. The
:36:32. > :36:33.bottom line is that their big argument on the economy, they went
:36:34. > :36:38.grossly over the top at the beginning. They tried to create what
:36:39. > :36:42.pollsters call a settled view, which then becomes difficult to dislodge.
:36:43. > :36:46.But in doing so, they went so far over the top that their claims
:36:47. > :36:50.became unbelievable, and simply adding more experts to its got no
:36:51. > :36:55.response from the electorate. Secondly, and more importantly, they
:36:56. > :37:01.had no answer on the immigration question. I think the majority of
:37:02. > :37:04.people who voted Leave, whether or not they would admit it, well, in
:37:05. > :37:09.their heart of hearts, voting so because of immigration, and Remain
:37:10. > :37:13.had no answer on that. You didn t have to be a rocket scientist or
:37:14. > :37:17.even a psephologists work-out that immigration was going to be the big
:37:18. > :37:20.issue. We have spoken about it on this programme months before the
:37:21. > :37:27.campaign began, and yet even by the end of the campaign, they still had
:37:28. > :37:32.no answer to the immigration issue. That is the legacy of years of
:37:33. > :37:35.British politics, when no one will make a positive case for
:37:36. > :37:39.immigration, or a case for the trade-off, where you say we accept
:37:40. > :37:42.immigration because of the economic benefits. The economic argument
:37:43. > :37:45.failed because people didn't feel that all these years of prosperity
:37:46. > :37:48.in the City of London had any translation to the real economy So
:37:49. > :37:52.when we said it would be terrible for the City of London, people
:37:53. > :38:00.thought, what has that got to do with me? Was there anything Remain
:38:01. > :38:02.could have done to have won? I think a different renegotiation in January
:38:03. > :38:09.or February by the Prime Minister Cold War which secured some tangible
:38:10. > :38:13.concession on -- by the Prime Minister, some negotiation which
:38:14. > :38:19.achieved a concession on immigration would have done it. People didn t
:38:20. > :38:22.feel they were getting that, and therefore, it was very interesting.
:38:23. > :38:26.It wasn't the internal dynamics of the campaign that was at fault. The
:38:27. > :38:30.reason they didn't have a answer was because Cameron didn't come back
:38:31. > :38:35.with something solid. So it was Angela Merkel what lost it? Yes and
:38:36. > :38:38.I am sure she is now bitterly regretting not giving Cameron
:38:39. > :38:43.something. The other thing is that I know that when the Britain Stronger
:38:44. > :38:47.In Europe campaign had their early meetings before the campaign
:38:48. > :38:49.officially began, they had a discussion about identifying five
:38:50. > :38:53.positive things about being in the EU that we can sell to voters, and
:38:54. > :38:58.they couldn't come up with any. That was again part of the problem. They
:38:59. > :39:02.failed to put a positive case, it was just Project Fear. It was also
:39:03. > :39:07.David Cameron what lost it, because for years, to get selected in the
:39:08. > :39:10.Tory party, you had to be Eurosceptic. He then had a career
:39:11. > :39:15.saying it would not be a problem if we leave, and then pivoted to say
:39:16. > :39:19.the sky would fall in. A lot of voters concluded, that is typical of
:39:20. > :39:21.the political elite. Making it up as you go along.
:39:22. > :39:23.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:39:24. > :39:26.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:39:27. > :39:29.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
:39:30. > :39:41.First, though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:39:42. > :39:44.Hello and welcome to the London section of the show.
:39:45. > :39:50.Coming up later: A report suggests poverty in outer London is rising.
:39:51. > :39:53.The capital has one quarter of the nation's wealth - why
:39:54. > :39:58.With me throughout the programme, Dawn Butler, the Labour
:39:59. > :40:00.MP for Brent Central, and Paul Scully, the Conservative MP
:40:01. > :40:10.Dawn, we now know there is going to be another Labour leadership
:40:11. > :40:18.contest. Angela Eagle has done her hat in the ring. Are you going to
:40:19. > :40:21.nominate Jeremy Corbyn again? I think that tomorrow, I will have a
:40:22. > :40:26.discussion with everybody to see where we are at. I am disappointed
:40:27. > :40:30.in how all this has come about. I don't think there should ever have
:40:31. > :40:34.been a vote of no-confidence. If this is what Angela wanted, she
:40:35. > :40:37.should have done this straightaway. We have a procedure within the
:40:38. > :40:43.Labour Party, and she should have said, I want to challenge Jeremy.
:40:44. > :40:47.What is important to me is where our Labour Party is going, what our
:40:48. > :40:52.policies are and the direction of travel. The criticism is that it is
:40:53. > :40:58.going nowhere. I think that is wrong, because I have no problems
:40:59. > :41:03.with the stance Jeremy has taken. We have lots of wind in the Labour
:41:04. > :41:10.Party against the Tory government. So you will nominate? You are not
:41:11. > :41:14.impressed by Angela Eagle. I am not, and I don't know if I want to
:41:15. > :41:18.nominate anyone, because I am still annoyed that we find ourselves in
:41:19. > :41:27.this position we should have been united. Angela Eagle said you cannot
:41:28. > :41:31.lead behind an office door, and that is what she fixed Jeremy is doing.
:41:32. > :41:41.We should have a mature debate. We are elected politicians. People need
:41:42. > :41:46.a Labour government and for them, what are we doing? We are not a
:41:47. > :41:51.personality led organisation, we should be a policy led organisation.
:41:52. > :41:55.That is the debate that Paul Scully, your party is having at the moment.
:41:56. > :42:00.You backed Leave in the referendum but you are backing a woman who
:42:01. > :42:04.supported Remain, Theresa May. Arron Banks, the Ukip donor must at this
:42:05. > :42:11.morning that she will not deliver what you wanted. He believes, as a
:42:12. > :42:15.fellow Leaver, that Theresa May will simply come up with some kind of
:42:16. > :42:23.fudge that will disappoint the Leave campaigners. I went into the second
:42:24. > :42:27.ballot, I originally thought I would give the members, who have the final
:42:28. > :42:32.say, the best selection of two. Theresa was nailed on as one of the
:42:33. > :42:35.finalists. In the end, when I looked at the three candidates, I couldn't
:42:36. > :42:42.look beyond Theresa's experience, the need for stability and the need
:42:43. > :42:47.to govern the country. Are you not worried that she will be the fudge
:42:48. > :42:53.candidates on Europe? When I heard Theresa's launch speech, I went to
:42:54. > :42:56.Chris Grayling. He is a fellow Leaver and I wanted to get some
:42:57. > :43:02.reassurance over why he made that decision. He reassured me. Since
:43:03. > :43:08.then, I have seen that David Davis and Priti Patel and Liam Fox are
:43:09. > :43:11.backing her, significant Leavers. They will make sure that Brexit
:43:12. > :43:15.means Brexit. This is an unprecedented situation, not only
:43:16. > :43:20.where the leader of the Liberal party will be determined by the
:43:21. > :43:24.party members, while the conservative side, 150,000 people
:43:25. > :43:27.were determine not just the leader of the Conservative Party, but our
:43:28. > :43:32.next Prime Minister. Most will never have been in a room with Theresa May
:43:33. > :43:37.Andrea Leadsom. That is perverse, it? We have had this one man,
:43:38. > :43:41.one-vote system for years. You are right that for the first time in 20
:43:42. > :43:46.years, we are not just picking a party leader who we hope will be
:43:47. > :43:48.Prime Minister, we are picking someone who will be Prime Minister
:43:49. > :43:53.and step into Number Ten, which is a big possibility. That is why, when I
:43:54. > :43:56.made my choice in the ballot, I couldn't go beyond Theresa, who has
:43:57. > :44:00.been around the Cabinet table and will be able to drive further
:44:01. > :44:07.negotiations in terms of Brexit But it is not all about Brexit. We still
:44:08. > :44:12.have a government to run in terms of schools, hospitals and policing We
:44:13. > :44:14.will stick with the subject of Brexit.
:44:15. > :44:16.The political fallout from the referendum continues.
:44:17. > :44:19.Mayor Khan warned this week that Brexit will put the battle
:44:20. > :44:21.against air pollution in the capital at risk,
:44:22. > :44:22.with potentially life-threatening implications for Londoners.
:44:23. > :44:24.So what should we be doing to prevent it?
:44:25. > :44:30.It is claimed the capital's dirty air causes around 9,500
:44:31. > :44:33.This week, the mayor Sadiq Khan unveiled his plans
:44:34. > :44:43.extending the size of the ultra-low emission zone
:44:44. > :44:45.to everything within the North and South circulars and bringing
:44:46. > :44:50.Drivers of the most polluting vehicles will have to pay up to ?100
:44:51. > :44:55.to drive in it, depending on the size of the engine.
:44:56. > :45:00.And in the interim from next year, there will also be a new additional
:45:01. > :45:03.?10 charge on the most polluting vehicles which are over ten years
:45:04. > :45:08.He called on the Government to be bold.
:45:09. > :45:12.The national government needs to be brave, as well.
:45:13. > :45:14.There needs to be a new and national clean air act.
:45:15. > :45:16.There needs to be a diesel scrappage scheme.
:45:17. > :45:19.The government needs to make sure that London is around
:45:20. > :45:21.the table when it comes to dealing with Brussels.
:45:22. > :45:24.According to the mayor, our decision to leave the EU may
:45:25. > :45:30.Our air quality was governed by EU law and in the future,
:45:31. > :45:33.And according to ClientEarth, the government will not
:45:34. > :45:39.apply the same rigorous standards after Brexit.
:45:40. > :45:42.The Government hates the EU ambient air quality directive.
:45:43. > :45:44.They have been fighting tooth and nail against ClientEarth in
:45:45. > :45:48.They have been lobbying in Brussels to try and weaken it.
:45:49. > :45:51.You can bet the first opportunity they get to scrap it,
:45:52. > :45:56.I think that is why we are calling for a clean air act.
:45:57. > :46:00.60 years after the clean air act of 1956, we need a new clean air act
:46:01. > :46:03.which enshrines the benefits we benefited from EU law
:46:04. > :46:09.It remains to be seen what impact the decision to leave European Union
:46:10. > :46:20.will have, but it is clear that this is an issue of life and death.
:46:21. > :46:29.Paul, is it time for a national clear air act? We have got to work
:46:30. > :46:34.together on this, and I know looking at Zac Goldsmith's manifesto and
:46:35. > :46:41.said the card's manifesto, there were similarities -- Sadiq Khan s
:46:42. > :46:46.manifesto. If the national government is kicking against what
:46:47. > :46:52.the EU has set as the limit. UK limits in many areas exceeded what
:46:53. > :46:56.the EU had set, and as we are leaving the EU, is there a danger
:46:57. > :47:01.that the pressure will disappear and the national government will lose
:47:02. > :47:04.interest? I don't think so. In terms of those areas which were quite
:47:05. > :47:09.high, there is one in my neighbouring constituency,
:47:10. > :47:14.Waddington, one of the highest, in terms of pollutants in London. It is
:47:15. > :47:18.incumbent on all of us to make sure that we hold the government, we hold
:47:19. > :47:28.their feet to the fire, the democratically elected government.
:47:29. > :47:32.You would like them to maintain it? Absolutely, because Londoners will
:47:33. > :47:35.suffer as a result of pollution The government have not taken it
:47:36. > :47:38.seriously enough, there were targets for this year, they said to the
:47:39. > :47:43.courts they will not meet those targets until 2030 and they were
:47:44. > :47:50.then taken to court and they reduced it to 2025. In Brent we are 85% over
:47:51. > :47:55.the EU limits in some areas and it is a matter of life and death, with
:47:56. > :48:02.10,000 people almost dying every year because of poor air quality. Is
:48:03. > :48:05.it enough for the mayor to simply say he will accelerate the ultra low
:48:06. > :48:12.emission zone by year, that is inadequate armour if the scale of
:48:13. > :48:19.the threat is that threatening? -- that is inadequate, if the scale. If
:48:20. > :48:22.it was just that in isolation, it would be inadequate, but seeing as
:48:23. > :48:28.it is just one of many measures I don't think it is inadequate.
:48:29. > :48:33.Everything in regards to the diesel scrappage scheme, for instance,
:48:34. > :48:37.which was never... That will not be a national scheme. He is fighting to
:48:38. > :48:42.get agreement and he has said he will accelerate the diesel scrappage
:48:43. > :48:49.scheme and he has a commitment from the government in order to do that.
:48:50. > :48:54.Regarding buses and making sure they are less pollutant to the air, all
:48:55. > :49:01.of those things are important. Diesel is the big problem. Even the
:49:02. > :49:09.new buses. Yes. Paul, there's an economic problem, isn't there?
:49:10. > :49:14.Statistics, 98% of the colour motors which are driven by Vance in London,
:49:15. > :49:22.they are driven by diesel van stash 98% of the kilometres. They might be
:49:23. > :49:25.coming from your borough and maybe from Brent, they are contributing to
:49:26. > :49:31.this, but if you penalised these people it has an economic impact.
:49:32. > :49:35.The consultation will be important to understand how this will affect
:49:36. > :49:39.business, because what happened over a number of years, people were
:49:40. > :49:43.encouraged not that long ago, Kouachi by diesel, it was seen as
:49:44. > :49:48.more environmental -- to actually buy diesel. If you look at black
:49:49. > :49:54.cabs, they have got to go through a number of hoops and investing
:49:55. > :49:57.?30,000 in order to keep up with the latest legislation, we have to bear
:49:58. > :50:04.that in mind, but on the other hand you can't compromise on air quality.
:50:05. > :50:08.It affects people's lives. We will come back in a moment.
:50:09. > :50:10.It was striking that, in the Europe referendum,
:50:11. > :50:13.whilst inner London voted Remain, five of the outer
:50:14. > :50:16.Could that have anything to do with the problems identified
:50:17. > :50:19.The Smith Institute, a Labour-leaning think tank,
:50:20. > :50:21.suggests poverty is now greater in outer London
:50:22. > :50:25.than it is in the centre, job creation is weaker,
:50:26. > :50:28.and crime is also slightly higher - even as the economy of London
:50:29. > :50:40.Bustling, ethnically diverse, a bit rough around the edges.
:50:41. > :50:44.This is zone five but maybe feels and looks more like the inner-city.
:50:45. > :50:48.Now back in the 1980s when I was at school,
:50:49. > :50:53.my geography teacher explained how London worked like this.
:50:54. > :50:56.There was the centre of the city which is where the West End
:50:57. > :51:00.and Buckingham Palace and all that kind of stuff was.
:51:01. > :51:04.And then there was the inner-city which was run down, post-industrial,
:51:05. > :51:06.high crime rates and all the rest of it.
:51:07. > :51:16.But according to a new report out this week,
:51:17. > :51:26.According to the Smith Institute think tank there are now 1.2 million
:51:27. > :51:28.people in outer London who live in poverty according to
:51:29. > :51:38.That is compared to just 1 million in inner London.
:51:39. > :51:45.In this shopping centre in Croydon the charity Lives Not Knives,
:51:46. > :51:47.which helps young people and tries to tackle problems around violence.
:51:48. > :51:51.I've visited a classroom before where a young boy said
:51:52. > :52:07.It is a huge change, from when I was young, anyway.
:52:08. > :52:12.I know people who are finding it hard living in the north
:52:13. > :52:16.of the borough and they feel quite threatened.
:52:17. > :52:18.According to that Smith Institute report again, economic
:52:19. > :52:23.growth in London has been incredibly uneven,
:52:24. > :52:26.with half a million jobs created in inner London in the last decade
:52:27. > :52:28.we have figures for, compared to just 8000
:52:29. > :52:33.There is economic growth in Croydon but according to local MP
:52:34. > :52:40.In many ways outer London now has equal problems to inner London,
:52:41. > :52:44.and I think the whole distinction is a false one.
:52:45. > :52:47.There are some real pockets of deprivation in inner London
:52:48. > :52:53.but there are also pockets in outer London, as well, we don't seem
:52:54. > :52:56.the same level of public investment going to outer London boroughs.
:52:57. > :53:00.I think there are a number of urgent things we need to look at to address
:53:01. > :53:06.This is Bermondsey in the 1980s And this is Bermondsey Street today.
:53:07. > :53:09.The type of place where if you are so inclined it is very
:53:10. > :53:12.easy to spend ?3.50 on a loaf of sourdough bread.
:53:13. > :53:16.In the last 15 years the bit of Bermondsey where I'm standing has
:53:17. > :53:23.Of course, the same is true for lots of parts of London
:53:24. > :53:25.which not that long ago were deemed the most frightening
:53:26. > :53:35.For example, King's Cross, Brixton, Hackney, Peckham, and so on.
:53:36. > :53:38.They are also some of the places in the UK with the strongest vote
:53:39. > :53:42.According to the Smith Institute's Paul Hunter, the author
:53:43. > :53:49.Places in inner London have seen a growth and a renaissance.
:53:50. > :53:52.Whereas places in outer London have not had such a good time over
:53:53. > :54:00.It is the comparison with how it was and how it now is.
:54:01. > :54:03.The only London boroughs to have voted to leave the EU
:54:04. > :54:06.were all on the outskirts of the city, suggesting that
:54:07. > :54:09.at least to some extent people in the suburbs have been less
:54:10. > :54:18.content with the direction the city has been travelling in.
:54:19. > :54:20.Joining me is Conservative London Assembly member Shaun Bailey,
:54:21. > :54:24.former special adviser to David Cameron on Youth and Crime.
:54:25. > :54:31.You have just moved from inner London to Outer London. You have
:54:32. > :54:38.also read the report, does it chime with your experience? I was in zone
:54:39. > :54:42.two, born and bred, I'm now in zone six and icy high levels of
:54:43. > :54:48.deprivation and less help. The help was not their -- and I see. In
:54:49. > :54:51.London boroughs a better story to tell about poverty and that affects
:54:52. > :54:55.who gets the money, they often get better levels of funding from the
:54:56. > :54:59.government. Outer boroughs, there's a feeling we have been left to
:55:00. > :55:04.ourselves. We are out of breath because you have had a journey in
:55:05. > :55:08.from zone six. We are grateful for you coming. When you look at the
:55:09. > :55:14.figures in the report, over ten years, job creation in inner London,
:55:15. > :55:19.half a million new jobs, in outer London, in the same period, 800 . Do
:55:20. > :55:23.you get a sense that is because of a lack of economic growth and activity
:55:24. > :55:29.or something different about the culture of Outer London? A lack of
:55:30. > :55:33.economic growth and you have got to look at the make-up of London, the
:55:34. > :55:37.outer boroughs are absorbing a lot of the housing need and that means
:55:38. > :55:41.shifting communities. We are getting people who need more support, to be
:55:42. > :55:50.implied, we are not receiving the same support -- to be employed. The
:55:51. > :55:53.mayor has the ultralow emissions, that has been spread, the proposal
:55:54. > :55:56.to spread across London, but that will punish the outer boroughs and
:55:57. > :55:59.we don't have the same poor air quality we will be paying the
:56:00. > :56:07.premium, and that forces business not take people on. To not pay for
:56:08. > :56:12.staff. The choice means we will not employ people. What visual answer to
:56:13. > :56:19.this? There is the talk about creating a suburban task force -
:56:20. > :56:22.what is your answer. The suburban task force already exists, that is
:56:23. > :56:26.called local councils, but the bottom line is we need to change the
:56:27. > :56:30.settlement that councils get from government and there needs to be
:56:31. > :56:34.better waiting to go to the outer boroughs, because that is where the
:56:35. > :56:40.real energy is to get something done and where the real pain is felt The
:56:41. > :56:43.mayor cannot be an inner London mayor, there is an argument that all
:56:44. > :56:47.four mayors have been ill-advised because that is where the media and
:56:48. > :56:57.the excitement is, but the work has got to be done in the outer boroughs
:56:58. > :57:00.-- have been inner London mayors. London has been hugely successful,
:57:01. > :57:03.the rest of the country will not tolerate more resources being
:57:04. > :57:09.diverted from them to London, some London has to do it itself. Would
:57:10. > :57:12.you buy the argument that Gavin Barwell is making, that there needs
:57:13. > :57:16.to be some kind of rebalancing of the resources in London between the
:57:17. > :57:25.inner London boroughs and the outer London boroughs? Yes. Absolutely. As
:57:26. > :57:30.Gavin said, the division between inner London and outer London is
:57:31. > :57:34.starting to cloud, Sutton does not look the same as it did 20 years
:57:35. > :57:39.ago, that is not a bad thing, but a very different place to when I moved
:57:40. > :57:47.there 28 years ago. To treat outer London as a ring, a doughnut, that
:57:48. > :57:52.is mistake, Sutton is not the same as favouring or Brent or Barnett, so
:57:53. > :57:57.you need to look at each borough differently -- favouring. This could
:57:58. > :58:04.affect your constituency in Brent, if the extra money from inner London
:58:05. > :58:10.boroughs is reduced, your Council tax is lower, on average, those kind
:58:11. > :58:14.of things will hurt people. What we need to look at is opportunities and
:58:15. > :58:18.mobility around London, inner and outer London. Make sure it is fair
:58:19. > :58:23.and equitable, then everyone will benefit. It is not about making the
:58:24. > :58:28.pie smaller, you have got to make it bigger so everyone benefits. What
:58:29. > :58:34.about sharing the existing five more fairly? I agree. The government has
:58:35. > :58:39.made such savage cuts to local authorities, especially those in
:58:40. > :58:44.outer London and in London, Brent is actually outer London. The
:58:45. > :58:47.government is making these savage cuts and the blame has got to fall
:58:48. > :58:51.on the Conservative government. I disagree. The whole country is
:58:52. > :58:59.absorbing these cuts. That is where you are wrong. The government says
:59:00. > :59:03.they are going to make a 10% cut, in outer London authorities, that has a
:59:04. > :59:07.greater effect than a 10% cut in authorities that do not use as much
:59:08. > :59:12.money. In percentage terms it might be the same, but that is smoke and
:59:13. > :59:18.mirrors. The effect is how much money is effectively lost. There is
:59:19. > :59:24.no argument, the government is making cuts, no argument. Those cuts
:59:25. > :59:28.have been accepted. The bottom line, inner London boroughs get more
:59:29. > :59:31.money, that is it. It is not technical, they need to share more
:59:32. > :59:36.money to the outer borough so we can help London as a whole. At least we
:59:37. > :59:41.have got consensus on that. Thanks for coming in. We will be back in a
:59:42. > :59:44.moment after we have looked at the rest of the news as it affects
:59:45. > :59:48.London in 60 seconds. London Mayor Sadiq Khan has
:59:49. > :59:55.said he is concerned that a new generation of Londoners
:59:56. > :59:57.are hearing racially offensive Following the EU referendum result,
:59:58. > :00:03.the number of hate crimes reported to the Met Police increased
:00:04. > :00:07.from 25-50 a day to a peak of 8 . The RMT rail union has offered
:00:08. > :00:14.to suspend industrial action over Southern Rail plans to introduce
:00:15. > :00:16.more driver-only trains with conductors no
:00:17. > :00:21.longer operating doors. The union said it would not call
:00:22. > :00:24.further action for three months if Southern Rail also
:00:25. > :00:25.suspended its proposals A patient lay dead for up to four
:00:26. > :00:31.and a half hours undetected in one of the busiest A
:00:32. > :00:34.departments in the country, A review of North Middlesex
:00:35. > :00:39.University Hospital also found there were too few competent doctors
:00:40. > :01:01.around who were able to assess Dawn, is this rise in hate crime
:01:02. > :01:08.that we have seen just a spasm? Will it fade? Obviously, I hope it fades,
:01:09. > :01:14.but it needs to be tackled. A lot of it was underlying. There was a lot
:01:15. > :01:17.of underlying discrimination and racial hatred, and also
:01:18. > :01:25.misunderstanding of issues. We have to tackle that so that it's not just
:01:26. > :01:29.papered over. Paul, the RMT Southern Railway dispute continues at the
:01:30. > :01:34.moment. Which side, if either, do you think can claim the moral high
:01:35. > :01:38.ground? Neither. I welcome the fact that the RMT says they would call
:01:39. > :01:43.off further action. But I want them to go further and speak to the
:01:44. > :01:49.people who are taking extra sick days off. There is an extraordinary
:01:50. > :01:52.amount of sickness. It is effectively unofficial action. Until
:01:53. > :02:01.we get rid of that, we can't solve the problem about the driver a
:02:02. > :02:08.breadth trains. -- driver operated trains. We need to get rid of this
:02:09. > :02:12.union issue, and then start to tackle Southern for the poor
:02:13. > :02:17.performance. Poor performance is the argument that maybe uses to say we
:02:18. > :02:21.should read national at it. No, I just think we need a different
:02:22. > :02:28.franchise holder. It could be run for not-for-profit purposes and be
:02:29. > :02:31.more efficient and effective than currently. We agree that Transport
:02:32. > :02:34.for London will look after the franchise in a few years' time.
:02:35. > :02:46.And with that, it's back to you, Andrew.
:02:47. > :02:55.So, will Angela Eagle succeed in replacing Jeremy Corbyn? And our
:02:56. > :02:58.senior Tories discussing plans for a centre ground party with the Lib
:02:59. > :02:59.Dems? Or questions for the week ahead.
:03:00. > :03:07.And joining us is the leader of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron.
:03:08. > :03:13.Welcome back. Will the Liberal Democrats campaign to rejoin the EU,
:03:14. > :03:19.come the next general election? We have to see what am I of the land
:03:20. > :03:26.will be. It could be October, it could be made 2020. But just like
:03:27. > :03:30.every other Liberal leader since 1955, I believe, I will have in my
:03:31. > :03:34.manifesto a question that there are a commitment that Britain is better
:03:35. > :03:39.off at the heart of Europe. Chris Grayling said to us this morning
:03:40. > :03:45.that he thinks he will be -- we will be out by the next election. If it
:03:46. > :03:49.is October, all bets are off, but if the parliament goes its term and we
:03:50. > :03:55.are out of the EU and into the 020 election, would you like your party
:03:56. > :03:58.to have a commitment to rejoin? I want to be part of Europe and I
:03:59. > :04:02.would like to be part of the European Union. If you had asked the
:04:03. > :04:06.12 months ago, I would not have predicted that we would have left
:04:07. > :04:09.the EU. I would not have predicted that Jeremy Corbyn would lead the
:04:10. > :04:15.Labour Party or that David Cameron would have resigned. In four years'
:04:16. > :04:18.time, the lie of the land could be very different. But I am trying to
:04:19. > :04:23.work out if you feel so strongly about it, will you accept the
:04:24. > :04:29.referendum result, or will you try to get us back into the EU? I accept
:04:30. > :04:32.the referendum result. At the moment, the trajectory is towards
:04:33. > :04:36.Brexit and we have to accept that. I have no time for MPs who say we
:04:37. > :04:41.should be undoing the result. That does not mean I give up my campaign
:04:42. > :04:44.for Britain to be in the EU. As has been said by others, you have an
:04:45. > :04:50.election, and if you lose, you accept it, but you don't give up
:04:51. > :04:54.your principles. So I hope it will remain in the EU and I hope it will
:04:55. > :05:00.be the choice of electors if that is the case. Politicians must not force
:05:01. > :05:05.that on people. But didn't we just vote to come out? The 52% were very
:05:06. > :05:09.clear over what they voted against. That was all they were asked to do.
:05:10. > :05:14.They were not asked to vote for one of the five or six potential exit
:05:15. > :05:18.strategies, whether it be for access to the single market, some level of
:05:19. > :05:22.free movement, or whether it is the almost North Korea option but a
:05:23. > :05:25.handful of people prefer the UK to have. It seems to me to be right
:05:26. > :05:32.that the British people, before we leave the EU, are given the choice
:05:33. > :05:36.as to what they want. So you want a referendum on the terms of
:05:37. > :05:41.departure? Well, nobody has voted for what comes next. People voted to
:05:42. > :05:44.leave the EU, but it seems right to me that having made the choice two
:05:45. > :05:50.weeks ago, the British people should also be allowed to choose what is
:05:51. > :05:55.the next step. That sounds like a referendum on the terms to me. Which
:05:56. > :06:00.I am not in favour of, because we have seen that people are busy. We
:06:01. > :06:05.have representative democracy for a reason, and some decisions are
:06:06. > :06:09.better thrashed out by people elected by voters to do that, rather
:06:10. > :06:13.than putting everything to a referendum. But Tim has a point
:06:14. > :06:18.There is no problem with people campaigning for another referendum.
:06:19. > :06:23.In 1975, we had a referendum and it wasn't like all the anti-Europeans
:06:24. > :06:28.accepted the decision. They carried on campaigning for another 40 years.
:06:29. > :06:36.So it could be another 40 years before he gets another referendum.
:06:37. > :06:40.He is a young lad. Who knows? I would be about Gladstone's age by
:06:41. > :06:43.them. I agree with you in one sense that we don't want to go to the
:06:44. > :06:48.public with a referendum on every issue. The problem is that this
:06:49. > :06:52.government, in a chaotic way, has established that principle, which
:06:53. > :06:58.means that it would be wrong and anti-democratic for the MPs to then
:06:59. > :07:04.overturn what the electorate have done. That means that in terms of
:07:05. > :07:10.endorsing what happens next, and the 52% may have 52 the ideas of what
:07:11. > :07:16.exit looks like. That is fine, but Britain needs to choose what happens
:07:17. > :07:25.next. And they need to choose whether they prefer the status quo
:07:26. > :07:29.before Article 50 is invoked. Oh! Well, I think there was a real
:07:30. > :07:34.danger that MPs will, over a course of time, basically diluted Brexit
:07:35. > :07:38.and not deliver it properly. I thought it was interesting that
:07:39. > :07:42.people like Chris Grayling or arguing that Brexit is safer in the
:07:43. > :07:48.hands of Theresa May. Why is he during that when she was a Remainer?
:07:49. > :07:54.Because he says she has the backing of the majority of Tory MPs. Of
:07:55. > :07:59.course, in Parliament, most MPs are for Remain, and he says that only
:08:00. > :08:02.Theresa May can push through Brexit, which is counterintuitive, but makes
:08:03. > :08:07.sense when you think about it. Surely no government can agree to a
:08:08. > :08:10.referendum on the terms, because Europe would then say, so you need
:08:11. > :08:19.another vote? You are getting nothing. It would be like Congress
:08:20. > :08:24.announcing a referendum on a trade deal with another country. Why would
:08:25. > :08:27.that country do a deal when it is subject to domestic politics? So I
:08:28. > :08:30.think another referendum is unlikely, but I fear that the
:08:31. > :08:36.entirety of the next parliament will be taken up by the process of
:08:37. > :08:40.extrication. What did you say about article 50? If the legal
:08:41. > :08:43.interpretation that once one has invoked article 50, the matter is
:08:44. > :08:47.out of our hands, that is like jumping out of a plane without being
:08:48. > :08:51.sure whether you have a parachute. It seems to me that the bridge
:08:52. > :08:57.people should be allowed to check the safety of the parachute. That
:08:58. > :09:02.means, do we know what we are going into? If we decide collectively that
:09:03. > :09:07.we should be in the single market, for example, as many Brexiteers
:09:08. > :09:10.believe, then for us to press the button to leave the European Union
:09:11. > :09:14.without any guarantee that we would have that access would be foolish to
:09:15. > :09:20.stop are you saying we need another referendum before we press article
:09:21. > :09:24.50? We will need to check the legal advice, but I would not want us to
:09:25. > :09:28.be in a legal position where there is no turning back. But the issue is
:09:29. > :09:34.whether you need a vote of parliament to trigger article 5 . To
:09:35. > :09:37.my mind, that is a detail. What I am really bothered about is whether the
:09:38. > :09:41.UK puts us in a position where there is no turning back and we have to
:09:42. > :09:47.settle for whatever bad deal we might get. But once you trigger
:09:48. > :09:51.article 50, that is it. The problem is, if you have done that, my
:09:52. > :09:55.understanding is that there is and then an opportunity for us to
:09:56. > :10:00.negotiate. We get what we are given, and it might be a really bad deal.
:10:01. > :10:04.My job is to make sure to get a good deal. The discussions now might all
:10:05. > :10:08.be over exit over the next few years. It is going to move on from
:10:09. > :10:13.being stuffed for the political classes, as people experience the
:10:14. > :10:17.fact that they have less to spend on holiday, that their savings are
:10:18. > :10:24.worth less. People will begin to realise the reality. Let me ask you
:10:25. > :10:28.this. There is an indication from the Sunday Times... Do you want to
:10:29. > :10:35.rebrand your party? Do you think that the term Liberal Democrats is
:10:36. > :10:39.tarnished? No, I don't. Our party has nearly doubled in size since the
:10:40. > :10:43.last election 13 months ago, and it has gone up by another 16,000 in the
:10:44. > :10:47.last fortnight. There is a movement among young people joining the
:10:48. > :10:56.Liberal Democrats, who see the chaos in the other two parties. How about
:10:57. > :11:01.the Labour Democrats? If you look at the other parties, we are now the
:11:02. > :11:06.marketplace where progressives and moderates from other parties can
:11:07. > :11:10.safely gather. We are open to talking to others in other parties.
:11:11. > :11:15.One of the good things from the referendum, not the result, was the
:11:16. > :11:18.fact that many of us shared platforms with people who we
:11:19. > :11:25.discovered we agree with more than just on the European Union. Have you
:11:26. > :11:33.got any Tories in your cross hairs? I have talked to lots of people
:11:34. > :11:40.Answer the question. That would not be fair. I have talked to loss of
:11:41. > :11:47.people. Politics is really fluid. Do you buy this realignment? For it to
:11:48. > :11:52.happen, the Lib Dems would need both Andrea Leadsom to be the Tory leader
:11:53. > :11:56.and Jeremy Corbyn to stay as the Labour leader. It requires a lot to
:11:57. > :11:59.happen. If Leadsom did become Tory leader and Jeremy Corbyn were
:12:00. > :12:02.strengthened as Labour leader, you have not just a centrist party
:12:03. > :12:07.potentially, but a very big centrist party. What I would issue as a
:12:08. > :12:11.warning is that that party would still be subject to all the
:12:12. > :12:14.squabbles that any existing party suffers. Were I and Tim to join for
:12:15. > :12:19.example, there would be a debate about what centrism means. Is it
:12:20. > :12:23.social democracy or something more economically liberal? Does it mean
:12:24. > :12:27.commitment to the European Union, or honouring the referendum and getting
:12:28. > :12:30.out? It would be no less prone to internal disagreements. Dubai the
:12:31. > :12:36.story this morning that there were 20 Tory MPs threatening to leave if
:12:37. > :12:41.Andrea Leadsom should become leader? I didn't buy that at all. It sounded
:12:42. > :12:46.like 20 years he fits to me. In relation to a realignment, it is
:12:47. > :12:49.interesting, what will happen to the UK Independence Party. Tim said the
:12:50. > :12:54.Lib Dems world where the marketplace is, but think about all those people
:12:55. > :12:59.that voted, for a righty of reasons, for Brexit, and what happens to
:13:00. > :13:02.Ukip. I think we will see that rebranding under a different name is
:13:03. > :13:06.some kind of people's party, and that could pick up a lot of Lib Dem
:13:07. > :13:13.and Labour votes. Is Tim Farron right to be confident with the
:13:14. > :13:18.position the Lib Dems are in? Last man standing, possibly the token
:13:19. > :13:21.male leader after all this. The joy for the Lib Dems is that they have a
:13:22. > :13:26.clear position and they are most gunning to be a majority party. They
:13:27. > :13:31.can have a focus that other parties don't have. We shall see. We have
:13:32. > :13:35.run out of time. The Daily Politics is back at midday on BBC Two all
:13:36. > :13:41.this week. I will be back here on Sunday on BBC One at 11 o'clock
:13:42. > :14:27.Remember, if it's Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.
:14:28. > :14:35.'is dedicated to trainspotters and train lovers.
:14:36. > :14:42.'Come and explore classic locomotives -
:14:43. > :14:45.'as we get the stats on Britain's railway network -