:00:00. > :00:08.This programme contains some flashing images.
:00:09. > :00:10.We're live from sunny Birmingham on day one of
:00:11. > :00:12.the Conservative Party Conference, where, three months after Britain
:00:13. > :00:15.voted to leave the European Union, the Prime Minister has given
:00:16. > :00:51.us her first inkling of how she plans to do it.
:00:52. > :00:54.Morning, folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:55. > :00:57.Theresa May says she will trigger Article 50, starting the two year
:00:58. > :00:59.process of negotiations that will culminate in Britain
:01:00. > :01:03.leaving the EU, before the end of March next year.
:01:04. > :01:05.So Brexit by Easter 2019 - but what kind of relationship
:01:06. > :01:13.A Great Repeal Bill will also be voted on next Spring,
:01:14. > :01:18.but won't be enacted until we leave, at which point EU laws will be
:01:19. > :01:34.And what do Conservative MPs want to hear from their new leader?
:01:35. > :01:37.We catch up with a Brexiteer and a Remainer as they pack
:01:38. > :01:46.In the capital, if London was defined by the conservatism of the
:01:47. > :01:48.Notting Hill set, what now? We explore the potential rise of Sidcup
:01:49. > :01:51.Man. So far no Great Repeal Act to get
:01:52. > :01:57.rid of the Sunday Politics Panel - Steve Richards, Rachel Sylvester
:01:58. > :02:05.and Tom Newton Dunn. It's 100 days since we voted
:02:06. > :02:08.to leave the EU and the clamour has grown for the Government to tell us
:02:09. > :02:11.what Brexit would look like. This morning, as the Tory faithful
:02:12. > :02:16.gather in Birmingham, we still don't expect to be told
:02:17. > :02:20.what Brexit means but we do know more about the timetable
:02:21. > :02:22.and the extrication process. A Bill will go before parliament
:02:23. > :02:25.this spring to repeal the 1972 European Communities Act,
:02:26. > :02:27.which legalised our membership But it won't actually come
:02:28. > :02:37.into force until we leave. Theresa May also told
:02:38. > :02:39.the Andrew Marr Show that Article 50 would be invoked
:02:40. > :02:42.by March of next year - starting the two year process
:02:43. > :02:52.of renegotiation before we leave. I have been saying we would not
:02:53. > :02:56.trigger it before the end of this year, so that we get confirmation in
:02:57. > :02:59.place. I will be saying in my speech today that we will trigger before
:03:00. > :03:03.the end of March next year. The remaining members of the EU have to
:03:04. > :03:07.decide what the process of negotiation is. I hope, and I will
:03:08. > :03:11.be saying to them, that now they know what the time is going to be,
:03:12. > :03:17.it is not an exact date, but they know it will be the first quarter of
:03:18. > :03:20.next year, that we will be able to have some preparatory work so that
:03:21. > :03:24.once the trigger comes we have a smoother process of negotiation.
:03:25. > :03:28.Theresa May, on this channel, just over an hour ago. What do you make
:03:29. > :03:32.of it? Saggy as you said, we know more about when but we don't know
:03:33. > :03:38.what Brexit is going to be. We don't know how the relationship will work
:03:39. > :03:41.out, we don't know what the Prime Minister's negotiation position will
:03:42. > :03:44.be, we haven't worked out anything about the free market access and
:03:45. > :03:48.freedom of movement. All of the substance. It is a significant
:03:49. > :03:52.announcement but we don't actually know anything really big about what
:03:53. > :03:57.our lives are going to be like in future. Is there a risk from the
:03:58. > :04:03.Prime Minister? Is there a risk putting this before Parliament to
:04:04. > :04:12.repeal the 1972 Communities Act? Undoubtedly. Anything you put before
:04:13. > :04:14.the House of Commons or the House of Lords, where there is no Tory
:04:15. > :04:19.majority, let alone a Brexit majority, risks getting amended. She
:04:20. > :04:23.runs the risk. There is also a risk of not saying this, not having the
:04:24. > :04:32.greater appeal, which is actually a great repeal act, when is being
:04:33. > :04:36.repealed, but she needed to throw the Tory right red meat, and they
:04:37. > :04:42.got it this morning. There is always the potential of a constitutional
:04:43. > :04:47.crisis. If the Lords were to dig in over this, or even digging over
:04:48. > :04:50.Article 50, demand a vote on that, lawyers are arguing whether you need
:04:51. > :04:55.it or not, it may not be plain sailing when you have a majority of
:04:56. > :05:00.12? It definitely isn't going to be with a majority of 12. The scope for
:05:01. > :05:05.constitutional crisis is many. Clashes with the Lords, clashes with
:05:06. > :05:11.the Commons, Scotland is still there in the background allows a
:05:12. > :05:15.significant factor. It will always be there, but perhaps in a different
:05:16. > :05:21.context. I don't think this will be the trigger for a constitutional
:05:22. > :05:25.crisis. You have to admire the elegant choreography. I was told
:05:26. > :05:29.ages ago that she knew she could not keep carry on saying Brexit means
:05:30. > :05:34.Brexit, there will have to be new lines. This is beautiful. We kind of
:05:35. > :05:38.knew that Article 50 was going to be triggered early in next year. David
:05:39. > :05:43.Davis even said that. It was a fair bet it would be before Easter. They
:05:44. > :05:49.couldn't spend the next two years negotiating Brexit and refocusing
:05:50. > :05:52.the entire legislative programme to spend the next two years rejigging
:05:53. > :05:56.the mountain of legislation we are affected with. They have turned a
:05:57. > :06:00.logistical, unavoidable inevitability into a sense of
:06:01. > :06:07.momentum this weekend. Very clever presentation. There are going to be
:06:08. > :06:14.huge crises to come over this. Picking off the 1972 Act, putting it
:06:15. > :06:19.all into British law and legislation, rather than dependent
:06:20. > :06:23.on Europe, that is what the Brexiteers wanted. To that extent,
:06:24. > :06:28.she has thrown them a bit of red meat today? Yes, but we still don't
:06:29. > :06:34.know what Brexit is going to be. But a bit of red meat keeps you going
:06:35. > :06:42.for a while. Maybe get them through to lunch time. Today or tomorrow?
:06:43. > :06:46.Really just today. The tactic is to get some stuff about Brexit out, get
:06:47. > :06:52.them talking about that and then move onto agenda she wants,
:06:53. > :07:00.domestic. What do you think? Good luck with that! Are you reading my
:07:01. > :07:03.script coming up? It was on the autocue, I'm sorry! Clearly, she is
:07:04. > :07:09.accessed about not making his premiership all about Brexit. It
:07:10. > :07:14.will be, but she is desperate. She needs to define herself away from
:07:15. > :07:17.Brexit, who is Theresa May, what did she really believe? We have heard
:07:18. > :07:27.whispers, but the next few days as a chance to do that. The fringe, Liam
:07:28. > :07:31.Fox is talking at two fringes. Two opportunities for a story. David
:07:32. > :07:34.Davis as well. These two men of great talent and potentially great
:07:35. > :07:41.ego, they will not be able to stop themselves having feelings heard.
:07:42. > :07:46.And Boris. Boris who? I have not seen him on the fringes. Fringe
:07:47. > :07:50.meetings have been quite dull at party conferences recently. Because
:07:51. > :07:55.of this issue, I think people are going to pack them out. That is
:07:56. > :07:58.where words might be said, explosive words. We live for fringe meetings!
:07:59. > :08:01.The PM hopes her announcement will deal with Brexit on day one
:08:02. > :08:03.so the conference can get on to talk about other matters.
:08:04. > :08:13.But as you can see from this not so slim tome - the conference guide-
:08:14. > :08:18.there are plenty of other issues to talk, maybe even argue about.
:08:19. > :08:20.Our Ellie caught up with two Tory MPs from different sides
:08:21. > :08:24.of the party before they set off, to see what they think lies in store
:08:25. > :08:33.# Just can't wait to get on the road again
:08:34. > :08:37.# The life I love is making music with my friends
:08:38. > :08:42.# And I can't wait to get on the road again...#
:08:43. > :08:44.Do you actually enjoy going to conference?
:08:45. > :08:48.It's not as much fun as when you're not an MP,
:08:49. > :08:51.because now people want to talk to you and everybody
:08:52. > :08:56.But do you make contacts, do you network?
:08:57. > :09:00.Do think Theresa May gets nervous about conference,
:09:01. > :09:05.I think if you are performing on a big stage, whoever you are,
:09:06. > :09:07.you ought to have a few nerves jangling around.
:09:08. > :09:10.But she's a polished performer, I'm sure she'll know
:09:11. > :09:15.Theresa May will also know she has several contentious issues she needs
:09:16. > :09:19.It is perhaps not surprising, then, that day one of
:09:20. > :09:29.We're pretty well balanced between those of us like myself,
:09:30. > :09:30.representing constituencies with really high levels
:09:31. > :09:32.of research, science and agriculture, who will be very
:09:33. > :09:35.keen, but probably pragmatically understanding that we are not
:09:36. > :09:36.going to hear everything tomorrow, and the rest
:09:37. > :09:41.of the party who are just desperate for information.
:09:42. > :09:45.If they don't think the deal is going in the right way,
:09:46. > :09:47.they will want to say something about it.
:09:48. > :09:49.I think the time frame is pretty clear.
:09:50. > :09:52.We are going to trigger Article 50 at some point relatively
:09:53. > :09:56.That means we will get the negotiations done a good year
:09:57. > :09:59.The rest is going to be important meat on the bones.
:10:00. > :10:02.But, in terms of the core strategy, Theresa May goes into this
:10:03. > :10:05.So, a unified front, albeit perhaps fragile.
:10:06. > :10:09.But then there is the question of grammar schools.
:10:10. > :10:12.Depends whether we hear more about it.
:10:13. > :10:14.You know, the concept in its one-dimensional sense,
:10:15. > :10:19.you can't have a problem with that, can you?
:10:20. > :10:21.Giving parents choice, giving bright children the chance
:10:22. > :10:25.But, for me, for many of us, it has to be a package
:10:26. > :10:27.Our teachers are pretty stressed and overworked
:10:28. > :10:31.I'm not actually sure this is the right time.
:10:32. > :10:34.I would rather see emphasis being put on fairer funding.
:10:35. > :10:35.Constituencies like mine have been underfunded for decades.
:10:36. > :10:38.If you go into politics and government scared
:10:39. > :10:40.of your own shadow, unprepared to do anything bold or brave,
:10:41. > :10:45.I think there is no risk-free option.
:10:46. > :10:47.Of course, people have different views on grammar schools
:10:48. > :10:49.and it is a totemic political issue as well.
:10:50. > :10:53.But I think if you read the green paper, the Prime Minister has set
:10:54. > :10:54.out a very sensible, carefully calibrated approach,
:10:55. > :10:56.not just to grammar schools but the wider
:10:57. > :11:04.The new PM also faces big strategic decisions on expensive projects
:11:05. > :11:06.like airport expansion, an area even her Cabinet
:11:07. > :11:12.With all these big infrastructure projects, HS2, Heathrow,
:11:13. > :11:15.issues around fracking, nuclear as well, I think we have got
:11:16. > :11:17.to take the right decisions for the country, make sure Britain
:11:18. > :11:24.Each one of those is thorny in its own right.
:11:25. > :11:27.But what I think is most important is we look at it very carefully,
:11:28. > :11:31.That is where we all start to see the metal in Theresa,
:11:32. > :11:36.Whilst on the one hand, having a Prime Minister -
:11:37. > :11:38.nobody could have been more delighted than me that we managed
:11:39. > :11:41.to cut the tax credits changes - but having a Prime Minister
:11:42. > :11:43.that sticks to her guns, I'm not for U-turning,
:11:44. > :11:49.How confident are you, going to this conference,
:11:50. > :11:52.that it is all going to be sorted and you are going to be
:11:53. > :11:56.Well, people predicted an economic nosedive after the referendum.
:11:57. > :11:58.People said there would be political chaos.
:11:59. > :12:00.Actually, the economy has proved resilient.
:12:01. > :12:08.I think there is a sense of resolve on all sides of the party
:12:09. > :12:11.on all of these different issues to get behind this Prime Minister
:12:12. > :12:16.Last year, you got into a bit of trouble, being quite vocal
:12:17. > :12:19.Some suggestion you weren't a proper conservative.
:12:20. > :12:22.I think I am absolutely a proper conservative.
:12:23. > :12:26.I think my party needed reminding what conservative was.
:12:27. > :12:28.Our job is to help people who need a leg up.
:12:29. > :12:37.Her opening speech in Downing Street told me she absolutely is.
:12:38. > :12:40.Like all of these things, we will hear more about this week.
:12:41. > :12:51.# And I can't wait to get on the road again. #
:12:52. > :12:53.And we're joined now by the Transport Secretary,
:12:54. > :12:59.who was a leading Leave campaigner, Chris Grayling.
:13:00. > :13:09.Welcome back to the programme. The great repeal act, what exactly does
:13:10. > :13:12.it repeal? It repeal the 1972 European Communities Act. It means
:13:13. > :13:15.the European Court of Justice no longer has sway in the United
:13:16. > :13:20.Kingdom. It means the European Commission and Parliament no longer
:13:21. > :13:24.make laws for us. As of today, in our system, European law is supreme
:13:25. > :13:28.over UK law, and it repeal that. Except what it does is it
:13:29. > :13:32.consolidates all existing European legislation into British law. It
:13:33. > :13:37.would be more accurate to call it the great Consolidation act? Is This
:13:38. > :13:40.is what I argued for during the League campaign. The remaining
:13:41. > :13:45.campaign said you could not do it, it will take years, it will be a
:13:46. > :13:49.disaster. My response then is what it is now, the best way to do it is
:13:50. > :13:54.to consolidate existing legislation, much of which we will want to keep,
:13:55. > :13:58.the environmental measures, the workers' rights measures, what we
:13:59. > :14:02.want to do is to make sure we can get certainty before the event and
:14:03. > :14:06.after the event, for workers, businesses, but what the legal
:14:07. > :14:10.position will be. Over time, we have the freedom, outside the European
:14:11. > :14:13.Union, free from the control of the European Court, to change our legal
:14:14. > :14:18.system in the way that we want. It does mean we would leave the EU with
:14:19. > :14:25.all of this EU law still part of British law. Now, what would you
:14:26. > :14:28.wish to change in the aftermath? There is a whole variety of
:14:29. > :14:32.different things we will be looking at a change. For example, if you
:14:33. > :14:36.want a practical one, it is unlikely that after we have left the European
:14:37. > :14:39.Union we will still be paying child benefits to children that have never
:14:40. > :14:43.even entered the United Kingdom. That is the kind of thing we will be
:14:44. > :14:47.free to change after we have left. What else? Much of it we will want
:14:48. > :14:51.to keep, environmental measures, not all that has been done in the
:14:52. > :14:55.European Union for 40 years has been bad for Britain. How long will it
:14:56. > :15:00.take to pick all of this after we leave? Will be down to the
:15:01. > :15:06.Government to decide... Ten years? 20 years? It will take it as long as
:15:07. > :15:10.we choose. What is right and proper is that on the day after there is a
:15:11. > :15:14.degree of certainty for businesses. It would not be fair for a company
:15:15. > :15:17.to be operating under a set of rules, for there to be a cliff edge
:15:18. > :15:24.where they do not know what is going to happen the day after. Let's make
:15:25. > :15:27.it an evolution, not a revolution. A lot of the things you have to agree
:15:28. > :15:31.to enter negotiations mean it will have to remain law even after we
:15:32. > :15:34.leave? This clearly the case that if a business in this country is
:15:35. > :15:37.continuing to sell a product in the European Union, it will have to make
:15:38. > :15:42.the standards of the European Union. Those rules will apply. That is the
:15:43. > :15:45.same if we're selling to the United States, the rules of the United
:15:46. > :15:53.States would apply to a business planning to sell a product there.
:15:54. > :15:56.What happens if you lose the vote? It is inconceivable that Parliament
:15:57. > :16:00.can look at the view of the British public and ignore it. Parliament
:16:01. > :16:03.voted overwhelmingly for the referendum to take place in the
:16:04. > :16:05.first place, the people have given a mandate and I am certain Parliament
:16:06. > :16:15.will fulfil it. What would happen? You have a
:16:16. > :16:21.majority of only 12 and there was a majority for remain in the Commons
:16:22. > :16:26.and there is a large majority in the house of lords. If the parliament
:16:27. > :16:31.does not seamlessly agree for what you call the great repeal act, what
:16:32. > :16:39.would happen? Both houses are full of Democrats and they will respect
:16:40. > :16:45.the will of the people. But we could be faced with a constitutional
:16:46. > :16:49.crisis? We have taken the decision to leave and parliament voted for
:16:50. > :16:53.the referendum and it is inconceivable that Parliament would
:16:54. > :17:02.not allow that process to go forward. If the inconceivable
:17:03. > :17:09.happen, you'd have to cores and -- call an election. Inconceivable is a
:17:10. > :17:19.bit of a stretch. Plenty of voices, particularly in the House of Lords,
:17:20. > :17:24.would use this as a an opportunity to thwart you. And I don't think the
:17:25. > :17:28.House of Lords will turn around and say we should not fulfil that. There
:17:29. > :17:34.may be dissenting voices but they will view it as a democratic mandate
:17:35. > :17:38.that we have to fulfil. Has your party don soundings in the Commons
:17:39. > :17:44.to make sure you can get this through? I've not been involved in
:17:45. > :17:49.that discussion but parliament will respond to the will of the people.
:17:50. > :17:57.That's the way this country works. That's what you hope. We shall see
:17:58. > :18:00.how it works. We've been told by the Prime Minister this morning that
:18:01. > :18:07.article 50 will be triggered by the end of March. That means that we are
:18:08. > :18:11.out by Easter 2019. Can you confirm that those British members of the
:18:12. > :18:18.European Parliament currently in Strasberg, there will be no more for
:18:19. > :18:24.them after this. If we have left by the end of the two-year period. It
:18:25. > :18:27.is technically possible to extend it. After that period, there
:18:28. > :18:48.wouldn't be EP is after that point in 2019. -- MEPs. For Brexit to mean
:18:49. > :18:51.Brexit, the famous phrase, which is basically tautology. It would mean
:18:52. > :19:00.the freedom to have our own trade laws. It would mean the ability to
:19:01. > :19:08.do that? You are leading me to answer questions about the specific
:19:09. > :19:17.legal structures. It means our own free-trade deals? Correct. It would
:19:18. > :19:27.mean we are no longer subject to the rules of the European Court of
:19:28. > :19:32.Justice. Also correct. And we would have whatever control we desire over
:19:33. > :19:35.immigration? The Prime Minister has been clear that we need to control
:19:36. > :19:41.the flow of immigration into the country. Any of these counts as out
:19:42. > :19:48.from being a member of the single market. So can we agree that there
:19:49. > :19:52.is no way we can remain a member of the single market? There is no such
:19:53. > :19:55.thing as a member of the single market. There are a number of
:19:56. > :20:01.different trading agreements within the EU. We are effectively a member
:20:02. > :20:08.of the single market now but we can't be after this. The question
:20:09. > :20:13.you have asked me, do we want to be Norway, Switzerland, Canada when it
:20:14. > :20:17.comes to trading arrangements? We want to be the United Kingdom. We
:20:18. > :20:24.are the biggest customer of German car-makers, French farmers... I
:20:25. > :20:30.don't want to have the referendum fight again. It seems as black as
:20:31. > :20:35.black or as White is white that if you want all of that we cannot be a
:20:36. > :20:40.member, we can have access on terms yet to be agreed, we will have a
:20:41. > :20:44.relationship, but why cannot you say that we won't be a member in the way
:20:45. > :20:51.that we are currently a member of the single market? We won't be a
:20:52. > :20:56.member of the European Union but there is no such thing as a member
:20:57. > :21:02.of the single market. There is no single market in services, for
:21:03. > :21:06.example. There is but it is not as developed as goods. I believe we
:21:07. > :21:09.will end up with a trading partnership with the European Union
:21:10. > :21:16.on terms to be agreed that will work for both of us. Access but not
:21:17. > :21:20.membership. You cannot be a fully paid-up member of the single market
:21:21. > :21:24.without the European Court of Justice ruling on it and you don't
:21:25. > :21:33.want that. I don't understand your problem. Your pre-merging --
:21:34. > :21:37.prejudging the outcome of negotiations. We want the best
:21:38. > :21:40.possible trading arrangements with European neighbours and that is what
:21:41. > :21:46.we will work towards. Where different to the other countries
:21:47. > :21:50.that have been involved in these negotiations before. We have heard
:21:51. > :21:54.all that before in the referendum and we wanted some clarity on what
:21:55. > :22:00.it would mean. Transport, when will you give is the decision on runway
:22:01. > :22:04.expansion? I'm not going to set a date today. I've spent the summer
:22:05. > :22:08.looking at the three different options. We have three very well
:22:09. > :22:11.presented packages. The airport commission has looked at it
:22:12. > :22:15.carefully and the Prime Minister and I want to understand the options in
:22:16. > :22:21.detail and understand the strengths and weaknesses of each and we will
:22:22. > :22:29.reach our decision shortly. I'm not going to set a date on it. Shortly
:22:30. > :22:33.means in this year, surely. I don't want to wait unnecessarily long to
:22:34. > :22:41.take the decision but nor do I want to set a date so to to work towards
:22:42. > :22:45.that. Will there be a free vote? I need to identify the best option for
:22:46. > :22:50.Britain and take the best possible approach to get the support of
:22:51. > :22:58.parliament Porritt. Will there be a free vote? Decisions have not been
:22:59. > :23:06.taken but we will do the best for the interests of the country.
:23:07. > :23:14.Theresa May has said the options for an expansion to Heathrow are
:23:15. > :23:18.seriously flawed. Philip Hammond has described the Heathrow option as
:23:19. > :23:21.dead as a Norwegian parrot. Can you be sure that the Prime Minister and
:23:22. > :23:27.Anna Chancellor will vote for your proposal? We are looking at three
:23:28. > :23:37.options that are very new. One of them is Heathrow. Warrant -- they
:23:38. > :23:42.are very different options to what has been proposed in the past. They
:23:43. > :23:47.are all very well crafted proposals. They are interesting and have
:23:48. > :23:55.potential and we need to decide. That is why I am asking you. HS2,
:23:56. > :24:00.high-speed train, can you state categorically it will go ahead? It's
:24:01. > :24:04.due to start construction in the spring. The hybrids Bill Haas to
:24:05. > :24:14.continue its passage through the house of law -- the hybrid Bill Haas
:24:15. > :24:28.to continue through its passage in the house of lords. Will it be 2026?
:24:29. > :24:33.Will it be on-time and on budget? The select committee of MPs said it
:24:34. > :24:46.is unlikely and will certainly be over budget. I expected be
:24:47. > :24:51.absolutely clear and on -- expected to be absolutely on-time and on
:24:52. > :24:56.budget. The latest estimate for phase one, the core cast is ?14
:24:57. > :25:05.billion but there is contingency on top of that. How much? It is set to
:25:06. > :25:11.Treasury rules. It is always going to be over. If you really believed
:25:12. > :25:19.in the Northern powerhouse wouldn't this money be better spent instead
:25:20. > :25:24.of making it quicker to come to and Birmingham from London in under 90
:25:25. > :25:29.minutes, which you already can, wouldn't it be better to spend the
:25:30. > :25:45.money on state of the art road links between East and West in the north.
:25:46. > :25:50.I think we need to do both. We can't get more freight onto rail without
:25:51. > :25:56.creating more space. By taking fast trains off the West Coast main line
:25:57. > :26:03.which is already busy and put fast freight trains onto the new route,
:26:04. > :26:06.you create more capacity for places like Milton Keynes Dons Northampton,
:26:07. > :26:12.Coventry. It is about making sure we have a transport system that can
:26:13. > :26:15.cope with the demands of the 21st-century. Thank you very much.
:26:16. > :26:18.Now, as we speak, voters in Hungary are going to the polls to vote
:26:19. > :26:21.on whether to accept mandatory EU quotas for relocating migrants.
:26:22. > :26:23.The country's government has been campaigning for voters to reject
:26:24. > :26:26.the EU's proposals and has run a highly controversial campaign,
:26:27. > :26:29.accusing migrants of terrorism and crime - and the Prime Minister
:26:30. > :26:31.Viktor Orban has said today he'll quit if the country votes
:26:32. > :26:36.In response to the ongoing migrant crisis, the EU wants to establish
:26:37. > :26:38.a permanent European resettlement programme, under which,
:26:39. > :26:40.member states must take their fair share of asylum seekers,
:26:41. > :26:44.depending on the size of each country's population and economy.
:26:45. > :26:46.If countries refuse, the European Commission has proposed
:26:47. > :26:51.that they would incur a financial penalty of 250,000 euros per person,
:26:52. > :26:56.to cover the cost of another country taking them.
:26:57. > :26:58.Hungarian Foreign Minister Peter Szijjarto said the plan
:26:59. > :27:03.Last year, Hungary rejected an emergency EU plan that would have
:27:04. > :27:07.seen tens of thousands of refugees transferred out of the country
:27:08. > :27:10.in return for accepting a quota of almost 1300 refugees
:27:11. > :27:16.As an EU border country, Hungary has received 18,500
:27:17. > :27:23.In 2015, it received the most asylum applications relative
:27:24. > :27:28.to its population of any EU state - 1800 for every 100,000 local people,
:27:29. > :27:31.though the majority of those then travelled onwards to other
:27:32. > :27:38.Although the referendum result will have no affect
:27:39. > :27:40.on the EU's decision, the Hungarian government hopes
:27:41. > :27:43.the weight of public opinion will help it resist the plans,
:27:44. > :27:46.running a very controversial referendum campaign.
:27:47. > :27:48.For example, this poster saying migrants carried out
:27:49. > :27:56.We're joined now from Budapest by our Correspondent, Nick Thorpe.
:27:57. > :28:04.I understand that the polls are pretty clear that the government
:28:05. > :28:09.will win this referendum but it needs a turnout of at least 50% for
:28:10. > :28:20.it to matter. What indication of turnout so far? As of 11am, turnout
:28:21. > :28:25.was just over 16% of the electorate. We have an electrode of 8.3 million,
:28:26. > :28:31.the government is campaigning strongly for a no vote. The
:28:32. > :28:37.government have framed the question in such a way that it is hard to
:28:38. > :28:49.vote, yes, we do want this imposed on us. The issue of turnout is
:28:50. > :28:57.important because the opposition have campaigned not to vote or to
:28:58. > :29:02.spoil votes. Even if the government wins on the numbers, if more people
:29:03. > :29:08.vote against the quotas, is it a symbolic defeat for the government
:29:09. > :29:16.if that was to happen? Some people will argue it would be a symbolic
:29:17. > :29:20.defeat if they don't get 50%. We've heard that ministers are backing off
:29:21. > :29:27.the whole issue of turnout. They are hoping for at least 3 million people
:29:28. > :29:33.to vote. Even 4 million which would be the 50%, voting no to migrant
:29:34. > :29:38.quotas. They say that all of those votes will give them a strong moral
:29:39. > :29:41.hand. In the words of the Prime Minister, it will sharpen the
:29:42. > :29:45.Hungarian sword in the battles ahead. Thank you very much.
:29:46. > :29:49.Malin Bjork is Swedish MEP and Vice Chair of
:29:50. > :29:51.the Confederal Group of the European United Left
:29:52. > :30:06.Welcome to the programme. The quota system proposed already seem to be
:30:07. > :30:10.dying if the Hungarians vote the way they are expected to today, that
:30:11. > :30:18.will kill it, will it not? I think we should have it as a point of
:30:19. > :30:24.departure whether we have seen that Hungary is a model in any of the
:30:25. > :30:30.fields that we want hungry -- Europe to be. I don't think Hungary is the
:30:31. > :30:35.model. I don't think we should give him the kind of weight that he
:30:36. > :30:37.actually claims. He wants more weight to this referendum. I don't
:30:38. > :30:49.think we should give it to him. It is not just Hungary, is it? There
:30:50. > :30:53.are meant to be 100,000 migrants covered by the quota system, fewer
:30:54. > :30:59.than 5% have been covered by it. It is just not happening, whether
:31:00. > :31:03.Hungary votes for or against? No, it is totally... But that means it is
:31:04. > :31:06.not operational, it is simply not working. There are serious
:31:07. > :31:10.criticisms to have towards implementing partners in this. But I
:31:11. > :31:15.do think when it comes to the political course, Hungary is playing
:31:16. > :31:20.a very dangerous, racist and right nationalist game. I don't think we
:31:21. > :31:25.should adapt to it. If it comes to it, we have to be prepared to be
:31:26. > :31:28.behind those that do not want to be the Europe that is taking
:31:29. > :31:33.responsibility globally. Let me clarify what you mean by that. The
:31:34. > :31:37.Foreign Minister of Luxembourg has already said that Hungary should be
:31:38. > :31:44.expelled from the European Union. Is that what you are saying as well?
:31:45. > :31:48.No, no. You know what I think? As a progressive politician on the left
:31:49. > :31:53.side, I do have a lot of criticisms to the European Union. But there are
:31:54. > :31:59.planets apart from the kind of models that Viktor Orban is trying
:32:00. > :32:03.to build, where he does not respect human rights, laws and media
:32:04. > :32:08.freedoms, and now he attacks refugee rights. Given all of that, let's
:32:09. > :32:13.accept what you say is true about that, others may dispute it, but
:32:14. > :32:17.let's accept that as true, why should Hungary remain a member of
:32:18. > :32:21.the European Union? Well, it is up to each country that has voted to
:32:22. > :32:27.stay, and voted to become members, voting to stay, I don't think Orban
:32:28. > :32:31.has any intention of leaving EU. I think he wants more influence in the
:32:32. > :32:34.EU. I think he wants more influence domestic league through the
:32:35. > :32:37.referendum and more influence in the EU. The question the rest of the
:32:38. > :32:42.countries have to ask themselves is if we are going to give it to him or
:32:43. > :32:45.adapt to his politics in any of these fields he is active in? I
:32:46. > :32:49.think we should make a stand against it. We should have political forces
:32:50. > :32:55.in other countries that have exactly the same kind of agendas, which we
:32:56. > :32:59.don't want to see strengthened. Isn't the problem that may be
:33:00. > :33:03.Hungary is on the trend, and you are not? We have seem the right, some
:33:04. > :33:09.may call it the far right even, on the march in Austria, Poland and in
:33:10. > :33:14.Hungary, even in Germany, with the recent elections in Berlin and
:33:15. > :33:16.Angela Merkel's backyard, even progressive social Democratic
:33:17. > :33:25.Sweden, your third biggest party is now the Sweden, Democrats, a hard
:33:26. > :33:30.right nativist party. Why are forces on the move, and while the forces
:33:31. > :33:34.used and four on the defensive? The more progressive forces, I think
:33:35. > :33:38.they are growing in many countries also, such as Spain, Ireland and
:33:39. > :33:42.other countries. It is not just for the left, it is for the broader
:33:43. > :33:46.political spectrum to counteract nationalist, right-wing and racist
:33:47. > :33:51.forces. We know where they lead, a dead end. It is a challenge in the
:33:52. > :33:55.European countries. Why is Europe going in this direction? In 2016,
:33:56. > :34:05.why are the forces of the rights so strong? To be honest, I think we
:34:06. > :34:09.have to be a little bit more humble and say are we failing people in
:34:10. > :34:13.some way? Yes, austerity policies are not working. Inequalities have
:34:14. > :34:19.grown for over 20 years in Europe. Of course it is a failure. We are
:34:20. > :34:23.capable of saving banks, but not refugees. People see this. It is
:34:24. > :34:26.political failure and I think we have to sit down and create
:34:27. > :34:30.different pacifists. What is happening now is worrying. I see
:34:31. > :34:35.some of the political forces in Europe. -- create different
:34:36. > :34:44.patterns. I see parties in Europe adapting to racism nationalist
:34:45. > :34:47.voices. I think we have to be the different parties that will not
:34:48. > :34:54.adapt to nationalist stories. They paint imaginary enemies. A huge
:34:55. > :34:58.chunk of Hungary's public spending comes from the European Union, net
:34:59. > :35:03.contributors like Sweden and the United Kingdom. If Hungary votes
:35:04. > :35:10.this way, should that continue? Should we continue to bankroll it?
:35:11. > :35:13.The way Europe and the European Union, individual members develop,
:35:14. > :35:19.of course we should lead discussions about money and heel spending to the
:35:20. > :35:25.respect for rule of law, the respect for human rights and the respect for
:35:26. > :35:28.international rights that are being infringed by the Hungarian
:35:29. > :35:30.government. Of course, we have to have such a discussion and it has to
:35:31. > :35:33.be frank. It's just gone 11.35,
:35:34. > :35:35.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:35:36. > :35:38.in Scotland who leave us now In 20 minutes I will be talking to
:35:39. > :35:47.Iain Duncan Smith. First, though, the
:35:48. > :35:53.Sunday Politics where you are. I'm delighted to say this week,
:35:54. > :35:58.with me, Kwasi Kwarteng, the Conservative MP for Spelthorne,
:35:59. > :36:01.and Labour MP for Hampstead and Coming up a little bit later,
:36:02. > :36:07.what is the new London Tory style? Are we seeing the demise
:36:08. > :36:10.of Notting Hill conservatism and the beginning of the ascent
:36:11. > :36:15.of Sidcup Man? First, this seemed to catch
:36:16. > :36:17.everyone by surprise. Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe announced
:36:18. > :36:19.he was standing down nearly as London's police chief,
:36:20. > :36:21.attracting commendations for good service from a range
:36:22. > :36:23.of public figures, Well, I, of course,
:36:24. > :36:30.was the Home Secretary who first appointed Bernard Hogan-Howe
:36:31. > :36:32.as Commissioner of the I must say, he's done
:36:33. > :36:37.an excellent job in his time. He has been responsible
:36:38. > :36:39.for the policing of London at what has been a difficult time,
:36:40. > :36:42.given the level of terrorist threat He came with an excellent record
:36:43. > :36:50.from Merseyside and I think His approach to total policing,
:36:51. > :36:55.I think, has been of real I just wish him all the very best
:36:56. > :36:59.for the future. Plenty of speculation,
:37:00. > :37:01.as you would imagine, I have worked with people right
:37:02. > :37:06.across different parties, different characters
:37:07. > :37:08.over the last 15 years, really, as chairs of police
:37:09. > :37:10.authorities in Merseyside, and Mayors down here,
:37:11. > :37:12.and I have always The thing you have to build
:37:13. > :37:16.is trust, and the thing you share as a common vision,
:37:17. > :37:19.you have to keep people safe. Keith Prince has come
:37:20. > :37:23.in for this first section, the Conservative assembly member
:37:24. > :37:25.for Havering and Redbridge. As I suggested, a certain
:37:26. > :37:28.amount of speculation He is going six months early,
:37:29. > :37:35.which feels like a time Well, I think it is the
:37:36. > :37:45.relationship, isn't it? Clearly, he does not
:37:46. > :37:47.get on with Sadiq Khan. I think that is more of Sadiq's
:37:48. > :37:51.making than it is Sir Bernard's. Sir Bernard has done a great job
:37:52. > :37:55.in the five years he has been there. Many a time in public,
:37:56. > :37:59.Sidiq has been critical, Well, we have asked questions
:38:00. > :38:07.of Sadiq in our meetings and he has He was critical around
:38:08. > :38:10.the issue around what people They were to prevent people
:38:11. > :38:15.spitting at officers, and Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe had
:38:16. > :38:18.recommended a pilot scheme, introducing this, and Sadiq Khan
:38:19. > :38:20.made it clear he didn't We have already had one officer
:38:21. > :38:34.who had hepatitis C as a result So, they were there
:38:35. > :38:38.to protect officers. As soon as Sadiq heard about this,
:38:39. > :38:41.he blocked it. Does he care about his image
:38:42. > :38:45.or our hard-working servicemen? Are you saying this is something
:38:46. > :38:47.new, what are you suggesting? That he is actively involving
:38:48. > :38:49.himself in operational matters? He should not be involving himself
:38:50. > :38:56.in operational matters, and he is. He wants to call the shots, he wants
:38:57. > :38:59.to dictate what is going on. Clearly Sir Bernard,
:39:00. > :39:01.being the gentleman that he is and being a professional,
:39:02. > :39:04.and also being a Yorkshireman, has his own views on how he thinks
:39:05. > :39:07.the police should be run. Tulip Siddiq, what do
:39:08. > :39:17.you think about this? I think, actually Keith
:39:18. > :39:19.is being unfair on Sidiq Khan. At the hustings I attended,
:39:20. > :39:22.Sidiq was talking about how good Sir Bernard had been,
:39:23. > :39:24.how much work he had done, especially in policing
:39:25. > :39:27.the Olympics and the 2011 riots. Look, he's choosing to go,
:39:28. > :39:32.he's choosing to retire early. He has his own reasons
:39:33. > :39:34.for doing that. But we shouldn't talk about politics
:39:35. > :39:37.because Amber Rudd is going to have a say in selecting
:39:38. > :39:39.who the next person is. It also has to be someone
:39:40. > :39:42.who has reached that rank. You can't just pluck a figure out
:39:43. > :39:45.of the air and decide, right, he's going to have the most
:39:46. > :39:48.important job in policing. It will be a combination
:39:49. > :39:50.of Sadiq Khan and Amber Rudd, who I may remind everyone
:39:51. > :39:52.is actually a Conservative You all know the system,
:39:53. > :39:58.it is the Home Secretary that makes We know what happened in terms
:39:59. > :40:04.of Boris Johnson and Theresa May There is no doubt that there
:40:05. > :40:09.is some politics involved. I think you are quite right to say
:40:10. > :40:12.that there is some friction Is it worth pointing out,
:40:13. > :40:17.just at this stage, that Boris Johnson and his deputy,
:40:18. > :40:20.Steven Greenhouse, were not aware of this trial of the policy around
:40:21. > :40:25.spit hoods either? You could argue Sadiq Khan was just
:40:26. > :40:29.saying that we need to have some public consultation on this
:40:30. > :40:31.before you introduce that. There is a narrow line
:40:32. > :40:33.about whether that is I think Sidiq has
:40:34. > :40:36.been very political. He has political skills,
:40:37. > :40:40.that is why he is where he is. I think he has taken a view,
:40:41. > :40:44.and Sir Bernard has taken a view that it is best for the both of them
:40:45. > :40:47.if Sir Bernard's resignation, That, actually, he had five very
:40:48. > :40:53.good years, a new Mayor comes in with a new mandate,
:40:54. > :40:57.do you think we shouldn't have a problem with a Mayor thinking
:40:58. > :40:59.he wants somebody new? I am a politician,
:41:00. > :41:02.I know what politicians In any organisation,
:41:03. > :41:05.not just politics, people want to get their own people around
:41:06. > :41:08.them because they feel We have just had a reshuffle
:41:09. > :41:12.earlier this year in Government, where lots of people
:41:13. > :41:14.left the Government. It is completely inevitable that
:41:15. > :41:17.a new leader will want a new team. I think this has been elegantly
:41:18. > :41:19.managed. But we can't pretend
:41:20. > :41:21.that everything... You know, that they had a great
:41:22. > :41:23.working relationship If that was the case,
:41:24. > :41:28.that they didn't particularly have a good relationship,
:41:29. > :41:30.there is a personal thing, he's going to be going in September
:41:31. > :41:33.anyway, it is a few months, plenty of time to
:41:34. > :41:35.choose his successor? The man was probably going to go
:41:36. > :41:40.in September anyway. That would have given the Mayor
:41:41. > :41:42.and the Home Secretary, and don't forget, it has to go past
:41:43. > :41:45.the Queen as well come We know there is no one actually
:41:46. > :41:50.outstanding that is It's going to take quite a few
:41:51. > :41:55.months to sort that out. By the time February comes,
:41:56. > :41:58.will we have somebody in post, or will London be
:41:59. > :42:00.without a commissioner? Keith Prince, we can probably point
:42:01. > :42:03.out, here is somebody going of their own choosing,
:42:04. > :42:06.at least the transition will not be one of crisis that we
:42:07. > :42:09.have had in the past? Thanks very much indeed
:42:10. > :42:11.for coming in. Now, given the importance
:42:12. > :42:14.of international talent, foreign workers to London's economy,
:42:15. > :42:17.would it be possible, post-Brexit, for more flexible immigration
:42:18. > :42:19.arrangements than the rest Some like the idea of a London
:42:20. > :42:25.visa or work permit. This week I tried to find out
:42:26. > :42:29.whether the Prime Minister might be What we are doing in
:42:30. > :42:36.the preparations we are making before we trigger Article 50,
:42:37. > :42:38.and of course those are preparatory for negotiations for Brexit,
:42:39. > :42:40.is listening to various sectors of the economy, listening to various
:42:41. > :42:43.parts of the country, of the United Kingdom,
:42:44. > :42:46.to make sure we understand the particular issues that
:42:47. > :42:49.are there that we need to take account of as we prepare
:42:50. > :42:53.for these negotiations. We are going to make
:42:54. > :42:57.a success of Brexit. We are going to make a success
:42:58. > :43:01.of the opportunities that will then be available to us when we leave
:43:02. > :43:04.the European Union as well. Would you contemplate
:43:05. > :43:05.looser immigration Suggestions have been made for work
:43:06. > :43:08.permits or visas that are separate for London,
:43:09. > :43:11.to reflect that it has a slightly more liberal attitude
:43:12. > :43:13.towards immigration? Well, one of the clear
:43:14. > :43:18.messages that came in controlling movement from
:43:19. > :43:22.the European Union into the United Of course, we're talking
:43:23. > :43:26.to all parts of the country. And all businesses across all parts
:43:27. > :43:28.of the country and that includes the City
:43:29. > :43:31.of London about the needs that they will have in relation to
:43:32. > :43:35.the negotiations for Brexit and what they hope for when we've
:43:36. > :43:38.left the European Union. Do you accept that your perceived
:43:39. > :43:40.brand of toughness on immigration is something that
:43:41. > :43:43.could potentially damage Well, the response I'm giving
:43:44. > :43:53.in relation to immigration is based on the views
:43:54. > :43:56.of the British people. People voted to leave
:43:57. > :43:57.the European Union. They wanted to see their government
:43:58. > :44:02.able to control the movement of people into the EU into
:44:03. > :44:06.the UK and we will deliver on that. If there is a difference
:44:07. > :44:11.in London, which people say there is, how are
:44:12. > :44:14.you going to deal with that? I don't see why London should
:44:15. > :44:16.get special status. The whole point about controlling
:44:17. > :44:19.freedom of movement is that we want to stop people, as it
:44:20. > :44:25.were, coming on spec. If you've got a job,
:44:26. > :44:28.you'll be able to come, I imagine. So, there's no reason,
:44:29. > :44:30.if that operates, why London should be treated
:44:31. > :44:32.differently from the rest of the What do you think
:44:33. > :44:45.about the concept of a There are examples of regionalised
:44:46. > :44:49.systems, like Canada, I do think London is a special case,
:44:50. > :44:54.in terms of the number of people who I think, what I worry about,
:44:55. > :45:00.listening to Theresa May is that the EU referendum was not a proxy
:45:01. > :45:02.vote on immigration. For me, we do need to talk
:45:03. > :45:07.about the benefits of immigration and how much money
:45:08. > :45:09.European migrants have actually In the last ten years,
:45:10. > :45:14.it's been ?20 billion that they've contributed
:45:15. > :45:19.and we need to talk about that. I do agree that we need to have some
:45:20. > :45:24.system where we monitor how many people
:45:25. > :45:30.are in the country, how many people leave,
:45:31. > :45:32.but let's not forget the benefits proxy vote on immigration which is
:45:33. > :45:37.what it seems to have happened. I mean, everyone's is son
:45:38. > :45:42.or daughter of an immigrant at some point in their history but,
:45:43. > :45:45.you know, lots of recent arrivals have made a huge impact,
:45:46. > :45:46.there's no The issue that has always been
:45:47. > :45:50.the case is one of control. Under the EU rules, you've got this
:45:51. > :45:54.issue of free movement which millions of people have an issue
:45:55. > :45:56.with because you're essentially saying, you're going to import
:45:57. > :45:59.150,000 people every single year. I think the vote, there
:46:00. > :46:07.were lots of things that drove people to vote,
:46:08. > :46:09.influenced the Brexit vote, but I think a lot of it was to do
:46:10. > :46:13.with being able to control Wasn't it for your leader
:46:14. > :46:16.to say, not really hung up by numbers, I'm not
:46:17. > :46:19.going to impose any kind of limit, in other words, it was read
:46:20. > :46:22.as we can have Look, what I would
:46:23. > :46:24.say, certainly in my constituency, immigration enriches
:46:25. > :46:27.the community that we live in. In terms of the number
:46:28. > :46:29.of people, we've already seen that putting an
:46:30. > :46:31.arbitrary figure on how many people can come into the country has not
:46:32. > :46:34.worked for Theresa May, has not I don't think you can
:46:35. > :46:37.actually put an arbitrary figure or cap on it
:46:38. > :46:40.because they certainly didn't meet But you can indicate an absolute
:46:41. > :46:50.direction of travel and a I think the intent is to
:46:51. > :46:56.monitor how many people Don't forget about the thousands
:46:57. > :47:00.of British people who live outside and who live in Europe,
:47:01. > :47:03.what are we going to do about them? I think you have to have an overall
:47:04. > :47:09.picture before you make a decision Are you assuming that Theresa May
:47:10. > :47:14.and your government will not go down I haven't really thought
:47:15. > :47:22.about how you would implement it, in reality,
:47:23. > :47:28.having a London only permit. Would that prevent you from going
:47:29. > :47:31.to Watford, or Oxford, or wherever
:47:32. > :47:36.it might be, to work? I don't know how that
:47:37. > :47:38.would work in practice. What I would say about
:47:39. > :47:41.Jeremy Corbyn is, I'm going to say nice things
:47:42. > :47:43.about him, he's honest. He honestly believes
:47:44. > :47:44.that we shouldn't really be
:47:45. > :47:47.looking at targets. He represents Islington,
:47:48. > :47:50.very multicultural community and he's very happy with not having
:47:51. > :47:54.a cap on immigration. His problem is that a large section
:47:55. > :47:57.of his base in the Labour Party, also Labour MPs,
:47:58. > :48:01.do feel there should be some degree of oversight in terms of how many
:48:02. > :48:04.people come in and they think it's I don't think it gets
:48:05. > :48:14.said very often, so I'll definitely report back
:48:15. > :48:15.to Jeremy. Are we in a position
:48:16. > :48:21.to define what Theresa May's conservativism
:48:22. > :48:24.will feel like in London yet? Is it goodbye to Notting
:48:25. > :48:26.Hill and hello Sidcup? A place where, a little over ten
:48:27. > :48:36.years ago, a group of ambitious Tories are said to have planned
:48:37. > :48:40.a takeover of their party and then David Cameron, George Osborne,
:48:41. > :48:45.Michael Gove, and their friends were called
:48:46. > :48:56.the Notting Hill set. A phrase coined by the journalist
:48:57. > :48:58.Peter Oborne. Peter knows a bit
:48:59. > :48:59.about the neighbourhood. You may not be very close
:49:00. > :49:01.to the English working class but you're really
:49:02. > :49:04.close to the hedge fund managers. There are hedge fund managers
:49:05. > :49:07.spikes all over here. So, how might all this inform
:49:08. > :49:09.the way you saw the world? Immigration is only a good thing
:49:10. > :49:12.if you live in Notting Hill because you have your expensive
:49:13. > :49:19.house, and your surly English plumber is undercut by the go-ahead
:49:20. > :49:20.Polish plumber, If you're a shareholder
:49:21. > :49:26.of the company, you have shares in, the price of labour has been driven
:49:27. > :49:29.down by mass immigration and that's terrific because it
:49:30. > :49:33.means more profits for you take a benign view
:49:34. > :49:38.of immigration and it only impacts on you personally
:49:39. > :49:42.as a good thing. So, could it be that
:49:43. > :49:44.Notting Hill was part It's not as ridiculous
:49:45. > :49:48.as, perhaps, it immediately sounds
:49:49. > :49:59.because if the vote to leave the EU
:50:00. > :50:01.really was, as some people think, a rebellion
:50:02. > :50:02.against a metropolitan, wealthy, liberal elite, the idea
:50:03. > :50:04.that the most powerful in the country were happiest around
:50:05. > :50:07.here in a bistro, Just hours into the job a Prime
:50:08. > :50:11.Minister, Theresa May wasted no time telling the nation that she wasn't
:50:12. > :50:14.trapped in an elitist bubble. I know that sometimes
:50:15. > :50:16.life can be a struggle. The government I lead will be
:50:17. > :50:19.driven, not by the interests So, how is Theresa May going down
:50:20. > :50:23.in places like Sidcup Where ?400,000 still buys
:50:24. > :50:26.you a house and not There's even a grammar
:50:27. > :50:30.school around the corner. Do you think she's more likeable
:50:31. > :50:32.than David Cameron? Probably not.
:50:33. > :50:34.It's hard to say. Well, let's give her a chance.
:50:35. > :50:39.I personally don't think so. But, to be fair,
:50:40. > :50:41.we've got to give her a chance. I think she's got God in her life
:50:42. > :50:45.and I think, you know, I don't know too much about her just
:50:46. > :50:50.yet so it's not fair for me to say anything about her until I know
:50:51. > :50:58.more about her myself. For all those locals looking
:50:59. > :51:00.for a steer on what the new Prime Minister is like,
:51:01. > :51:03.they could do worse After all, he worked with
:51:04. > :51:06.Theresa May for five years at the Home Office as a minister.
:51:07. > :51:09.His name is James Brokenshire. Whether it's in Bexley,
:51:10. > :51:14.where I am, Bethnal Green and Bow, or maybe out
:51:15. > :51:25.into Barnet, it is that message of opportunity
:51:26. > :51:27.of allowing people to get get a good school, get a good job
:51:28. > :51:31.and ensure that they are seeing a really positive opportunity
:51:32. > :51:34.from wherever they come from. Conservatives say that their
:51:35. > :51:36.conference this week is going to We'll ask the new Housing minister
:51:37. > :51:41.to give us a tip-off. One thing he told us to look out
:51:42. > :51:44.for is recognition for people not just wanting to buy
:51:45. > :51:47.a home but renters, as well. There's a lot of people in London
:51:48. > :51:49.that rent as well and we need to have a policy
:51:50. > :51:53.that is balanced, that seeks to try and improve their housing
:51:54. > :51:55.conditions, so I want more people building homes for people to own,
:51:56. > :51:58.more people building homes to rent in the private sector and more
:51:59. > :52:01.affordable rented homes, as well. London is also going
:52:02. > :52:04.to get new devolution and a decision on Heathrow's third
:52:05. > :52:07.runway any day now. All will be spun as being decisions
:52:08. > :52:10.made for ordinary people but, at least at the moment,
:52:11. > :52:15.what's missing from all what the Prime Minister
:52:16. > :52:17.is going to do about leaving the EU and
:52:18. > :52:20.immigration. We've already talked about that,
:52:21. > :52:23.so let's talk about this. Tulip, what do you see as a change
:52:24. > :52:25.of style here? Is it more dangerous
:52:26. > :52:28.to you in labour than the Look, I don't think she's been
:52:29. > :52:32.in the job that long but Don't forget, this is the lady that
:52:33. > :52:37.signed off the "Go home" vans. If we're talking
:52:38. > :52:39.about immigration they caused huge discontent in my
:52:40. > :52:45.constituency and within Hamstead and Kilburn generally,
:52:46. > :53:10.which is very multicultural. Are you worried about her
:53:11. > :53:12.as an electoral risk? Weakening your own
:53:13. > :53:13.position, Labour's? Actually, you know
:53:14. > :53:15.what I am worried about? I'm worried about the fact
:53:16. > :53:18.that she said Brexit is Brexit but that actually not elaborated
:53:19. > :53:21.on what it means. It feels like she's
:53:22. > :53:24.only person in the world who knows what Brexit means.
:53:25. > :53:27.What's really worried me in the last few weeks,
:53:28. > :53:30.and I'm sure you're aware of it is that this harks back to
:53:31. > :53:34.You can't sit on the steps of Downing Street and talk
:53:35. > :53:37.about not working for a privileged few and then talk about bringing
:53:38. > :53:39.That has worried me tremendously.
:53:40. > :53:43.What have we seen in these early days?
:53:44. > :53:46.I think she has a less gilded sheen about her.
:53:47. > :53:49.You've got to remember, she was a Conservative
:53:50. > :53:51.councillor in Wimbledon for ten years, I think.
:53:52. > :53:54.She's someone who knows the party, has come from the
:53:55. > :53:56.grassroots, she's the daughter of a vicar, she herself went
:53:57. > :54:00.Do you think there will be this very cultural move from Notting
:54:01. > :54:03.I'm not trying to denigrate David Cameron I think
:54:04. > :54:07.But I think people in my constituency will relate to someone
:54:08. > :54:10.if not more, than they did to David Cameron.
:54:11. > :54:14.We've heard about grammar schools but we've had to suggestions
:54:15. > :54:17.What you think about breaking with David Cameron's legacy
:54:18. > :54:26.I think she is evolving. Parties evolve.
:54:27. > :54:28.That's why the Conservative Party is a successful party.
:54:29. > :54:30.They evolve, they have different messages, they have
:54:31. > :54:33.I think we're evolving. I think a new leadership.
:54:34. > :54:36.I happen to support grammar schools, I think
:54:37. > :54:40.It seems odd to me that of the people who are
:54:41. > :54:50.against them tend to go to selective schools
:54:51. > :54:54.What about the clear signal being sent about
:54:55. > :54:57.shifting away from a lot of the resources and attention that went
:54:58. > :55:00.into home ownership to renting, would you go with that?
:55:01. > :55:03.Especially in a place like Spelthorne, which is
:55:04. > :55:05.just outside London and within London itself.
:55:06. > :55:07.You know, it costs, sometimes, ?400,000, as you said, to
:55:08. > :55:11.So people feel that renting is something which is more
:55:12. > :55:15.If they are moving towards addressing issues around rent, which
:55:16. > :55:17.they acknowledge they have not been doing, that's important for
:55:18. > :55:21.You share that and agree with that shift?
:55:22. > :55:24.If that is what it is for the Conservative Party?
:55:25. > :55:27.I support policies if they benefit constituents who are around me and
:55:28. > :55:29.So, in the last manifesto, the Conservative Party
:55:30. > :55:31.didn't mention anything about private renting,
:55:32. > :55:35.So, if they are looking to address it, it's very important
:55:36. > :55:38.because more and more people are renting and we need to protect
:55:39. > :55:41.a lot of people who are renting from what goes on with private landlords
:55:42. > :55:45.Jeremy Corbyn already mentioned it in his speech.
:55:46. > :55:49.We've got to have some form of rent control if we want people to
:55:50. > :55:52.Some people are saying that, maybe, a measure we
:55:53. > :55:54.need is the stamp duty holiday, or to reverse some
:55:55. > :55:57.of the restrictions put on people renting out property.
:55:58. > :55:59.I tended to be slightly sceptical about those sorts of policies
:56:00. > :56:02.because, if you're imposing taxes, essentially, on people who are
:56:03. > :56:04.wanting to enter the rental market as landlords,
:56:05. > :56:06.you're just going to reduce the supply of those
:56:07. > :56:08.properties, which will drive up the price of rents.
:56:09. > :56:16.I was always slightly sceptical about that.
:56:17. > :56:20.We'll have to review it. I think what Tulip said is right.
:56:21. > :56:22.We've got to be realistic about the housing need in
:56:23. > :56:25.London and the provision and renting is an increasingly important part of
:56:26. > :56:30.Now, for the rest of the political news
:56:31. > :56:34.At the Labour Party conference in Liverpool, Sadiq Khan
:56:35. > :56:37.set out his vision for Labour in emphatic terms.
:56:38. > :56:52.He mentioned his leader just the once.
:56:53. > :56:57.Prior to the conference it is alleged that the
:56:58. > :57:00.London mayor and Labour's party leader
:57:01. > :57:06.Nevertheless, when Jeremy Corbyn delivered his keynote speech
:57:07. > :57:08.to the party faithful, he included a positive
:57:09. > :57:12.In the May elections we overtook the Tories to become
:57:13. > :57:24.We won back London with a massive win for Sadiq Khan, the
:57:25. > :57:25.first Muslim mayor of Western capital city.
:57:26. > :57:40.Well, it was very entertaining. How many times did he mention it?
:57:41. > :57:44.I mean, he's clearly on a high, he's just become
:57:45. > :57:46.Mayor of London, he wants power, I think he wants
:57:47. > :57:49.Should you be scared? Very scared?
:57:50. > :57:54.I think he's very driven by power and he's a successful politician.
:57:55. > :57:56.I think he's eminently beatable, certainly, in the country.
:57:57. > :58:02.If I were Jeremy, I'd be very worried.
:58:03. > :58:04.Not to mention him once and talk about power.
:58:05. > :58:12.I'm pretty sure he beat your candidate quite badly.
:58:13. > :58:15.Slight problem when you've got mayor and leader so obviously wanting
:58:16. > :58:21.I think that is being too harsh on him.
:58:22. > :58:26.Sadiq Khan is being harsh on Jeremy Corbyn?
:58:27. > :58:28.No, I think you are being harsh on Sadiq.
:58:29. > :58:35.He didn't want to smile and applaud when he was being mentioned.
:58:36. > :58:38.Do you think this is going to become a narrative now,
:58:39. > :58:40.people will constantly see him as the leader across the water?
:58:41. > :58:43.I think Sadiq has just got the job of Mayor of London.
:58:44. > :58:46.I think he is going to do a much better job than
:58:47. > :59:06.And we're joined now by the former Work and Pensions Secretary
:59:07. > :59:13.and Leave campaigner, Iain Duncan Smith.
:59:14. > :59:25.it you said we could be out of the European Union by 2018? My senses if
:59:26. > :59:30.you keep their process as simple as possible and don't try to get
:59:31. > :59:34.special pleading and try to be a member of the single market which
:59:35. > :59:41.they are not going to grant you, if you go for a clear and simple
:59:42. > :59:46.position on trade and find an agreement then the more complex
:59:47. > :59:53.issues then disappear. Theresa May has said that when she brings the
:59:54. > :59:59.act forward to repeal the 1972 act, at the same time you binding the
:00:00. > :00:04.European Law and you speed the process up. Keeping it simple,
:00:05. > :00:06.keeping up pace is what we recommended. It allows you to get
:00:07. > :00:15.the end point quicker. You talk about member of the single
:00:16. > :00:20.market, Chris Grayling told me there was no such thing, which slightly
:00:21. > :00:25.puzzled me. You clearly think that there is. What you want, as I
:00:26. > :00:30.understand it, is a free-trade agreement with the European Union.
:00:31. > :00:33.That could not be done by 2018? We want free trade. There are two
:00:34. > :00:39.approaches to getting free trade with the European Union. The first
:00:40. > :00:43.is that you say, OK, in this process, if we sympathise and ask
:00:44. > :00:50.ourselves, if we now have a new relationship, we have left, we want
:00:51. > :00:54.capital goods, we want to access each other's markets, it benefits
:00:55. > :00:58.you more than us, but we are happy not to have tariff barriers on your
:00:59. > :01:02.trade, we have an agreement of no tariff barriers. Financial services
:01:03. > :01:06.are outside, a separate issue, more of a regulatory issue. That is also
:01:07. > :01:10.approaching a deal on equivalence that we could accelerate. The point
:01:11. > :01:14.I am saying is if you do not go down the road trying to nominate
:01:15. > :01:18.individual bits and pieces and say it is a good agreement for us both,
:01:19. > :01:22.you could reach that by agreement. If you don't and you can't, you
:01:23. > :01:27.could fall back on the WTO arrangements and say, well, later
:01:28. > :01:32.on, we will continue that negotiation discussion to decide
:01:33. > :01:36.whether or not we want a free-trade position. If you fall back on that,
:01:37. > :01:41.what you say to the boss of Nissan, who says he will not invest again in
:01:42. > :01:46.this unless the government back row compensates him, he faces tariffs?
:01:47. > :01:51.The answer to that is that first of all I did not believe we will end up
:01:52. > :01:53.in a situation where it is, in any way, a financial benefit for the
:01:54. > :02:01.European Union to want to impose any kind tariff. Right now you are 12%
:02:02. > :02:04.better off anyway. The level of the pound has made it 12% more
:02:05. > :02:10.competitive with European partners, even if you slapped on 10% tariff.
:02:11. > :02:15.It goes up and down, but you asking him to take investment decisions,
:02:16. > :02:18.multi-billion pound decisions, head of Jaguar, saying roughly the same
:02:19. > :02:27.thing, at a time of real uncertainty. Until it is resolved,
:02:28. > :02:31.investment in Britain will slow down, if not dry up? They invest
:02:32. > :02:35.because this is a darn good place to sell your businesses. You heard from
:02:36. > :02:38.the head of the publishing sector in Germany, he said Britain in five
:02:39. > :02:46.years' time will be much more profitable than anywhere else and
:02:47. > :02:49.will be the boom place. Outside the European Union it will be more
:02:50. > :02:52.flexible to set out arrangements. I am with him on this. I was in
:02:53. > :02:58.business before I came into politics. Nobody knows what the
:02:59. > :03:02.future holds for anything. For car makers and others that want to build
:03:03. > :03:07.stuff, they are here because they want a flexible workforce, much
:03:08. > :03:11.lower levels of cost, and a much better contract law base. 85% of
:03:12. > :03:18.Nissan's output goes to the single market. That is right, they also
:03:19. > :03:23.sell here. 15%? You are not suddenly going to meet a massive tariff wall,
:03:24. > :03:26.a closet is not in the interests of the European Union to set up a
:03:27. > :03:30.massive tariffs. Guess who sells more to us than we do to them? The
:03:31. > :03:35.European Union. The Germans themselves are behind-the-scenes
:03:36. > :03:39.talking to us. We had a lot of that during the referendum. Let me move
:03:40. > :03:43.onto some other things. Damian Green is now running your old department.
:03:44. > :03:47.He is scrapping repeated tests for the seriously disabled, people that
:03:48. > :03:54.you know are not going to be able to improve. Why didn't you do that? We
:03:55. > :03:58.wanted to change this, it was a programme given to us by the last
:03:59. > :04:02.Labour government, we did quite a lot to improve it. The big problem,
:04:03. > :04:05.the programme as it exists at the moment, it does not deal with health
:04:06. > :04:09.conditions, it deals with ability to work. That is the problem. If you
:04:10. > :04:12.want to scrap it for people with health conditions, you have to
:04:13. > :04:16.change the criteria by which they are being assessed. That has always
:04:17. > :04:28.been the issue. For disability payments, it is a different matter.
:04:29. > :04:30.They are assessed on their condition. The problem for that...
:04:31. > :04:32.He will stop the assessments of people that are seriously disabled,
:04:33. > :04:34.why didn't you do that? This is not seriously disabled, it is people
:04:35. > :04:37.that suffer from sickness conditions, not necessarily
:04:38. > :04:41.full-time disability. There are two elements. When I was in Government,
:04:42. > :04:44.we have always set out a process that said we needed to change the
:04:45. > :04:50.way the sickness benefit system was assessed. That was so you could rule
:04:51. > :04:54.out conditions, some progressive, some absolute, on a medical basis,
:04:55. > :04:58.on the approval of the Health Service, so they would say this is a
:04:59. > :05:02.condition that will change, it will mean they cannot work now but they
:05:03. > :05:06.might be able to work for a bit. You put it into a box marked medical
:05:07. > :05:11.conditions. That was already on the box. He has just done that, to
:05:12. > :05:16.acclaim. Why didn't you do it, if it is that simple? We needed to get
:05:17. > :05:21.agreement in Government and we have not reached the Provo ease approval.
:05:22. > :05:26.It is a wider plan. This could have been incremented on its own? But you
:05:27. > :05:33.have to change the way you do it. I was in favour of a bigger plan that
:05:34. > :05:36.brought in changes all into one, because they are competing with each
:05:37. > :05:40.other and do not have the kind of effect that you want. It is the
:05:41. > :05:43.right thing to do. Until now, there have not been a huge number of
:05:44. > :05:50.assessments taking place because the system has not been able to cover
:05:51. > :05:54.it. There is a lot of talk about trying to reposition the Tory party
:05:55. > :05:58.on the centre ground, even the centre-left, talking about worker's
:05:59. > :06:05.rights and so on. It is not credible until she does something. 6 million
:06:06. > :06:08.people earn less than the Living Wage, after six years of
:06:09. > :06:12.Conservative government. 6 million people earn less than the Living
:06:13. > :06:21.Wage. That is the reality, not Tory erect a wreck that we are hearing in
:06:22. > :06:27.the hall. -- that is the Tory rhetoric. Raising the minimum wage
:06:28. > :06:34.was making sure that you identify that and raise the blood. There are
:06:35. > :06:40.still 6 million below. The mantra of this government was to make work
:06:41. > :06:46.pay. 50% of families in poverty have at least one family member working.
:06:47. > :06:49.They are still in poverty, waiting, doing difficult and unpleasant jobs,
:06:50. > :06:56.long hours, they are still in poverty. Many people in this country
:06:57. > :07:03.work and still it is the equivalent of poverty. That does not pay, work
:07:04. > :07:13.does not pay for them. Huge problems down the low skill level of work.
:07:14. > :07:17.This is the one area, the level of skills at that point is arguably
:07:18. > :07:21.some of the lowest in the Western world. Companies too often do not
:07:22. > :07:26.invest in skills because of the nature of the tax credit system, you
:07:27. > :07:29.have them in packets of 16 hours, it is not worth investing. Universal
:07:30. > :07:33.Credit will change all of that quite dramatically. It allows people to
:07:34. > :07:37.work more of the hours, invest more in them. The second aspect is back
:07:38. > :07:40.to the migration issue. That has had a very damaging effect on low
:07:41. > :07:46.workers. There are two elements of this. It is not just the statutory
:07:47. > :07:50.migration, it is that what happened is that a lot of people come for
:07:51. > :07:57.under one year. They do part-time work, they claim full benefits,
:07:58. > :08:02.Migration Watch proved it is over 4 billion per year. That allows them
:08:03. > :08:07.to go and do cash in hand work. It is a big problem, it has only now
:08:08. > :08:11.become clear how damaging that has become to British people working at
:08:12. > :08:15.low income level. What does this party, if it is this self-styled
:08:16. > :08:20.Workers Party, what does it have to do in a country where 6 million
:08:21. > :08:24.people get less than the Living Wage, 50% of people in poverty are
:08:25. > :08:32.already in work and poverty levels among those in work are at record
:08:33. > :08:41.levels. So much for the worker's party? The answer is it has to do a
:08:42. > :08:43.lot, we have been talking about Brexit a lot, Theresa May has
:08:44. > :08:49.dropped a lot of hints about what she wants to do. The announcement
:08:50. > :08:54.yesterday morning about this massive review, led by a Blairite, Matthew
:08:55. > :08:59.Taylor, to completely re-examine employment rights. Thereby meaning,
:09:00. > :09:07.for the low paid and the casual workers, holiday pay for Uber
:09:08. > :09:20.drivers, it opens a massive area of things, grammar schools... You need
:09:21. > :09:24.high-quality technology schools to up-skill its? She has all of this on
:09:25. > :09:29.her agenda, possibly more interesting than even Brexit. I was
:09:30. > :09:34.planning not to mention Brexit in this segment, but I think I did.
:09:35. > :09:38.There was a lot of flesh to be put on his bones before it is
:09:39. > :09:44.convincing? Theresa May is playing a political game of trying to dump the
:09:45. > :09:51.nasty party image, become a more compassionate conservative. She is
:09:52. > :09:55.changing from the David Cameron era, instead of being the bottom 10% or
:09:56. > :10:00.15% of people that he was focusing on, as well as the wealthier elite,
:10:01. > :10:05.she is looking at the people earning more than ?16,000, up to ?21,000,
:10:06. > :10:11.those who have children that are not on free school meals, not the most
:10:12. > :10:14.deprived, she calls them the just managing classes, they might have
:10:15. > :10:18.one for holiday each year, they might want to send their kids to
:10:19. > :10:23.piano lessons or the local Football Club, they are not the poorest
:10:24. > :10:27.people on welfare. That could have an impact on what you're saying, it
:10:28. > :10:30.could also undermine her reputation for being compassionate if she is
:10:31. > :10:34.seen to be abandoning the people that need help most. There is always
:10:35. > :10:38.a political case for doing something for Middle Britain, where most
:10:39. > :10:41.people are. They call at Middle America over there and so on. But
:10:42. > :10:48.these are not the in work but in poverty. Being a worker's party, one
:10:49. > :10:53.that dines out on its support for work, if it is to do anything, it
:10:54. > :11:00.has to do something about these people? The key issue is what the
:11:01. > :11:03.economic policies are in this new government. Nobody on the programme
:11:04. > :11:12.this morning has talked about the deficit, which George Osborne framed
:11:13. > :11:16.everything around, to the point where, as they know better than
:11:17. > :11:19.anyone, he struggles to get welfare reforms affected because of our
:11:20. > :11:25.budget cuts that hit those on low income in work. Until we know the
:11:26. > :11:29.degree to which the framing of that deficit strategy has changed, we
:11:30. > :11:33.will not really know the space they will have to make sure that does not
:11:34. > :11:37.happen over the next few years and the opposite happens. That applies
:11:38. > :11:42.to all of these issues, actually. The economy will provide the space,
:11:43. > :11:48.or not, to do these things. The Treasury is telling the Chancellor
:11:49. > :11:53.that the slowdown in the economy, not as slow as they thought, but
:11:54. > :11:57.still a slowdown, that, in itself, will widen the deficit. Therefore,
:11:58. > :12:01.he is not going to have a tonne of money to throw around on top of
:12:02. > :12:06.that, which would widen the deficit even further. There is room for
:12:07. > :12:12.manoeuvre which may be quite slight? Not quite true. He has abandoned
:12:13. > :12:15.George Osborne's fiscal targets. Having already taken this into
:12:16. > :12:18.account by what they think is the slowing of the economy. They have
:12:19. > :12:23.been wrong in the past, but that is why they have done that. There is
:12:24. > :12:27.not a turn of money around to spend billions on infrastructure, unless,
:12:28. > :12:31.of course, like Mr Corbyn, you want to borrow it. When you say you are
:12:32. > :12:37.not going to eradicate the deficit by 2020, that is what you mean. If
:12:38. > :12:42.he needs to cushion the Brexit impact, if there is one, I don't
:12:43. > :12:46.think we could pay off the deficit by 2020. Then you'll have all of
:12:47. > :12:50.this money to do what you want with. Final thought? There is also the
:12:51. > :12:54.attitude about business and the attitude to the super rich and well.
:12:55. > :12:58.I think Theresa May will concentrate on that more than David Cameron,
:12:59. > :13:01.alleviating concerns. The Autumn Statement from the Chancellor will
:13:02. > :13:06.be as big as any of the statements we hear this week. I am glad to hear
:13:07. > :13:09.it, it will be coming up live on a Daily Politics special.
:13:10. > :13:12.at the Conservative Party conference here in Birmingham.
:13:13. > :13:15.Fear not, I'll be back tomorrow at 11am for a two-hour special
:13:16. > :13:18.as Chancellor Philip Hammond takes to the stage.
:13:19. > :13:26.We are back on Tuesday and Wednesday bringing Theresa May's speech on
:13:27. > :13:28.Wednesday just before lunch. We will be back next Sunday as well.
:13:29. > :13:31.In the meantime, remember - if it's Sunday, it's