:00:38. > :00:42.Theresa May was cheered by the Tory faithful
:00:43. > :00:45.as she charted her vision for Brexit.
:00:46. > :00:48.We'll be talking about the plan - or what we know of it -
:00:49. > :00:50.with Lib Dem leader Tim Farron and former Tory Cabinet
:00:51. > :00:55.The olive branch might have withered but Jeremy Corbyn has
:00:56. > :00:57.stamped his authority on the Labour Party
:00:58. > :01:00.with a Shadow Cabinet reshuffle that's rewarded allies
:01:01. > :01:07.And one Ukip MEP is still in hospital following an altercation
:01:08. > :01:13.Just what exactly happened in a week which has seen
:01:14. > :01:24.In London, after the Brexit decision, negotiations for more
:01:25. > :01:35.But what can the mayor and London's councils expect to get?
:01:36. > :01:40.And we'll be talking about the tape that's derailing Donald Trump's bid
:01:41. > :01:46.We've also reshuffled our own top team here in the studio,
:01:47. > :01:49.and we've ended up with three journalists who show all the unity
:01:50. > :01:58.the humour of a Conservative Party conference speech,
:01:59. > :02:09.and the anger management of a meeting of Ukip MEPS.
:02:10. > :02:15.that means they'll probably be fighting in a few minutes.
:02:16. > :02:17.Yes, it's Helen Lewis, Tim Shipman and Isabel Oakeshott.
:02:18. > :02:19.So, where else would we start but with Brexit?
:02:20. > :02:21.And the Defence Secretary Michael Fallon has been talking
:02:22. > :02:25.He coined a new term - full Brexit - and he was asked
:02:26. > :02:27.if Britain was going to be leaving the EU's single market.
:02:28. > :02:34.This is Brexit. This is full Brexit if you like. We are going to be
:02:35. > :02:39.outside the European Union but we still, because it is over 40% of our
:02:40. > :02:46.trade, we still want to maximise our trade with it. A final question in
:02:47. > :02:50.the papers today. You see soft Brexiteers briefing against hard
:02:51. > :02:55.Brexiteers and vice versa. This is terribly damaging for the Cabinet
:02:56. > :03:02.presumably. We are all Brexiteers now. We have to make a success of
:03:03. > :03:03.it. So, a lot of briefing against Mr Hammond after his speech to the Tory
:03:04. > :03:14.conference. Then Mr Hammond's people briefing
:03:15. > :03:19.against people like Liam Fox David Davis, Boris Johnson. Today, one
:03:20. > :03:25.phrase was they were talking nonsense and garbage. When did we
:03:26. > :03:33.get the first Brexit resignation? A good question. We have full Brexit,
:03:34. > :03:38.open and close Brexit, hard and soft Brexit. The Prime Minister does not
:03:39. > :03:42.want to provide a running commentary so ministers are trying to tell us
:03:43. > :03:46.nothing but in interesting ways I do not think anyone will resign but
:03:47. > :03:48.what is interesting as you get a situation where everyone is a
:03:49. > :03:52.Brexiteer now but there were very different views about how this is
:03:53. > :03:56.going to go forward. The Prime Minister herself, she did two things
:03:57. > :04:00.last week. She gave a speech for a domestic audience and a foreign
:04:01. > :04:06.audience. She is trying to embody the hopes and dreams of a group of
:04:07. > :04:09.people who feel they have been left out, the people who have been left
:04:10. > :04:11.behind on the domestic front and also voted for Brexit. By embodying
:04:12. > :04:16.those people fighting for their causes she is having to take a hard
:04:17. > :04:20.line on immigration. There may be no one about to resign now but we are
:04:21. > :04:26.only 100 days into this many government and the briefing on both
:04:27. > :04:31.sides of the so-called hard Brexit versus the so-called soft Brexit was
:04:32. > :04:36.the Treasury. It seems to embody the soft Brexit approach. The briefing
:04:37. > :04:42.is fierce. It is going to lead to trouble, to blood. This is a
:04:43. > :04:45.peak-time will stop we have just come away from the Tory Party
:04:46. > :04:50.conference where every journalist worth their salt is working the
:04:51. > :04:54.party circuit, going to dinners It is an easy agenda to get every
:04:55. > :04:57.cabinet minister you lunch or dine with to give you their version of
:04:58. > :05:03.what Brexit said -- should mean There is a melting pot here which is
:05:04. > :05:07.bubbling away. Things may become more disciplined in the week ahead.
:05:08. > :05:12.I do not think it is sustainable for Theresa May to say she will not give
:05:13. > :05:16.a running commentary. It is a red rag to every journalist and all her
:05:17. > :05:20.own Cabinet. You cannot keep that going for the next few months. She
:05:21. > :05:25.will have to give a clearer guide as to whether it is hard, soft, in or
:05:26. > :05:34.out, whatever it is. Theresa May is going to have to deploy the smack or
:05:35. > :05:38.firm government. She has been smacking away already. All three
:05:39. > :05:41.Brexit is happening to be airing personal opinions. The fact they are
:05:42. > :05:45.ministers in charge of this is totally irrelevant. There is
:05:46. > :05:50.political and economic things at work. What no one will say is that
:05:51. > :05:53.you can have hard Brexit but it will probably almost certainly have
:05:54. > :05:57.economic consequences. How do you go as a politician of the country and
:05:58. > :06:03.say we hear you want to control Iraq -- immigration but that means the
:06:04. > :06:08.country will be poorer? People will always be straddling it in a really
:06:09. > :06:12.uncomfortable way. OK. We'll be talking more about this as the
:06:13. > :06:15.programme goes on, you will not be surprised to hear.
:06:16. > :06:17.This week, Theresa May closed her party's conference
:06:18. > :06:19.with a speech designed to grab the centre ground
:06:20. > :06:22.She positioned the Conservatives as champion of the working classes
:06:23. > :06:24.and pledged to help those left behind by globalisation.
:06:25. > :06:27.We'll wait to see what any of that that means in practice.
:06:28. > :06:30.But it was what she had to say about Britain's exit
:06:31. > :06:33.from the EU that had the biggest immediate impact,
:06:34. > :06:37.not least on the value of the pound, as the world began to get a clearer
:06:38. > :06:47.We now know when the process of leaving the EU will begin.
:06:48. > :06:50.Theresa May has set a deadline of the end of next March
:06:51. > :06:52.for triggering Article 50, which formally begins the Brexit
:06:53. > :06:57.That allows only two years to do a deal, so we should be out
:06:58. > :07:01.of the EU by the end of March 2019 by the latest.
:07:02. > :07:03.The Government will also introduce a so-called Great Repeal
:07:04. > :07:07.Bill next year, which will end our membership of the EU.
:07:08. > :07:09.Theresa May talked of Britain being a fully
:07:10. > :07:15.The Prime Minister also said she will prioritise
:07:16. > :07:17.controlling immigration by ending the free movement
:07:18. > :07:21.Because being subject to the European Court of Justice
:07:22. > :07:23.and free movement are key requirements of membership
:07:24. > :07:26.of the EU single market, this strongly suggests the Prime
:07:27. > :07:31.Minister does not see Britain remaining a member.
:07:32. > :07:36.But there were some mixed messages about life after Brexit.
:07:37. > :07:40.The ability of EU citizens to stay in the UK remains a grey area.
:07:41. > :07:46.Brexit secretary David Davis said they would be 100% able to stay
:07:47. > :07:49.while Theresa May struck a more cautious tone.
:07:50. > :07:52.And Home Secretary Amber Rudd's plan to shame firms that
:07:53. > :07:58.take on foreign, rather than British, staff, faced a backlash
:07:59. > :07:59.from business and political opponents.
:08:00. > :08:04.There was also a range of mood music about life as we head for the door.
:08:05. > :08:07.Chancellor Philip Hammond was at one end, warning the country
:08:08. > :08:11.to brace for a roller-coaster ride ahead.
:08:12. > :08:14.But Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson attacked what he called
:08:15. > :08:16.gloomadon poppers and said Britain would be more active on the world
:08:17. > :08:23.Well, I'm joined now by the Liberal Democrat Leader Tim Farron.
:08:24. > :08:26.And the former Conservative Cabinet minister, Iain Duncan Smith.
:08:27. > :08:40.Let me come straight to the point, first of all with you, Iain Duncan
:08:41. > :08:44.Smith. Is it now clear that whatever relationship we will have with the
:08:45. > :08:50.single market, we will not be a member of the single market when
:08:51. > :08:55.Brexit is complete? I think when you add all these things together, it
:08:56. > :08:58.becomes, I believe, is pretty clear that what the Prime Minister said,
:08:59. > :09:06.what has been said by a number of Cabinet ministers, if the centre of
:09:07. > :09:11.our negotiations is that we intend to control our borders and the flow
:09:12. > :09:15.of migrants from the European Union, which has caused, in some cases a
:09:16. > :09:19.great deal of damage to workers and their incomes at the bottom level,
:09:20. > :09:23.the skilled level, that means there is no way that the European Union
:09:24. > :09:30.will be able to allow us to be a member of the single market. That is
:09:31. > :09:35.not the same as access. Tim Farron, do you accept that is the way we are
:09:36. > :09:40.going? Whatever access arrangements we have, and we will have some
:09:41. > :09:46.arrangements. Even North Korea has access to the single market. But we
:09:47. > :09:50.won't be a member. That looks to be the way the Government is taking us.
:09:51. > :09:55.It is a massive mistake. I think Ian is wrong to say there has been a
:09:56. > :09:59.massive decision in favour of us leaving the single market and if
:10:00. > :10:12.that is what he is implying. It is given that a small majority voted to
:10:13. > :10:15.leave the EU but no one voted to leave the common or single market.
:10:16. > :10:18.It seems to me to be flying in the face of all the economic indicators
:10:19. > :10:20.of whatever the British people want, or is best for British jobs. It
:10:21. > :10:23.seems, for the Conservative Party, to be a reinterpretation of the
:10:24. > :10:30.result for a hard Brexit that nobody voted for. That is strong point We
:10:31. > :10:35.do not have too much time this morning, so I'm going to try to keep
:10:36. > :10:39.this moving quickly. How do respond to that, Iain Duncan Smith? It is
:10:40. > :10:44.utter rubbish. The British people made it clear decision. They were
:10:45. > :10:50.asked a simple question. Do you want to stay in or leave the European
:10:51. > :10:54.Union? Were they asked whether they wanted to leave the single market?
:10:55. > :10:57.You need to have a look at the rules around this. The single market as
:10:58. > :11:05.part of the European Union, whether you like it or not. Do you think we
:11:06. > :11:12.should be in the single market? Do you agree with the overwhelming
:11:13. > :11:15.majority? No, no. I am sorry. The massive benefits which exist are
:11:16. > :11:19.asked to be able to trade with the European Union and have access.
:11:20. > :11:23.America has access. They sell more to the European Union than we do.
:11:24. > :11:29.Hold on. There is no point talking over each other because you are too
:11:30. > :11:33.far-away. Let me come to Tim Farron. If you want to be in the single
:11:34. > :11:38.market, you have to accept free movement. You have to accept the
:11:39. > :11:42.jurisdiction of the European port. In effect, that is membership of the
:11:43. > :11:55.EU. Isn't that what we voted against? -- the European Court. Tim
:11:56. > :12:02.Farron I am talking to. The reality is, and I accept the result of the
:12:03. > :12:05.referendum. It is the direction of the United Kingdom being towards the
:12:06. > :12:16.European Union as we stand. The deal we get at the end, as Lord Kurt the
:12:17. > :12:20.writer of Article 50, agreed with me overnight because destination is not
:12:21. > :12:24.the same. You cannot start this process with democracy and end up
:12:25. > :12:28.with a stitch up, which is what the British people will get. Many people
:12:29. > :12:32.around the country voted to leave the European Union but there will
:12:33. > :12:37.not agree, I am certain, with having imposed upon them complete exit from
:12:38. > :12:42.any relationship with the nearest market and friends and neighbours,
:12:43. > :12:48.which will cost tens and hundreds of thousands of jobs. Let me get you to
:12:49. > :12:53.respond to that, Iain Duncan Smith. When article 50 was drafted, he did
:12:54. > :12:56.not mean it to help any country leave, he deliberately designed it
:12:57. > :13:00.so it would make it so difficult to leave it would almost be nigh on
:13:01. > :13:04.impossible. The second thing about the point that Tim makes, which is
:13:05. > :13:13.complete nonsense, is the added that we will lose tens of thousands of
:13:14. > :13:16.jobs. What we are looking for is a free trade relationship with the
:13:17. > :13:18.European Union. That is the key point. We are not leaving Europe, we
:13:19. > :13:24.are leaving the European Union. This is the problem. There is not a
:13:25. > :13:30.problem in that for common-sense and decent people. Hold on, Tim Farron.
:13:31. > :13:37.Sterling has slumped at the prospect of hard Brexit as it has dawned on
:13:38. > :13:42.the markets that the Government is heading for a so-called hard Brexit.
:13:43. > :13:47.Doesn't that give you pause for thought? Doesn't it make you think
:13:48. > :13:52.it might not be the right course? If you go to the airport at the moment,
:13:53. > :13:58.you would be lucky to get 1 euro for ?1. Doesn't that make you think Not
:13:59. > :14:01.really. What you know about the free-flowing currency is it will
:14:02. > :14:05.fall and rise in accordance with what people speculate about and the
:14:06. > :14:12.prospects for the future. The point to look at is what the underlying
:14:13. > :14:15.story is for UK business. It used to be that the BBC generally spent its
:14:16. > :14:21.whole time telling us how terrible things work if you look at the FTSE
:14:22. > :14:27.250 or the FTSE 100. In the same period we have seen the FTSE 25 ,
:14:28. > :14:31.the small and medium companies, at record levels high. Much higher than
:14:32. > :14:36.before we decided to leave the European Union. Here is the other
:14:37. > :14:41.point. There is hugely a story about a strong dollar. The pound rose
:14:42. > :14:48.against the yen was the dollar rose against the euro, the yen, and the
:14:49. > :14:56.pout. Here is the deal. The pound is doing our supporters a of good. --
:14:57. > :15:03.the pound. There is no point heckling. That is my job. The point
:15:04. > :15:09.is that the pound having fallen means British business is doing very
:15:10. > :15:14.well. And that is a very good thing. Other than the slump in Stirling,
:15:15. > :15:21.what has gone wrong for the UK economy since the 23rd of June?
:15:22. > :15:28.First of all, I am not saying everything is completely calamitous.
:15:29. > :15:31.I take the views of all of the business leaders, people who wrote
:15:32. > :15:35.to the Financial Times yesterday, people who are former members of the
:15:36. > :15:39.Prime Minister's business advisory council, who say that whatever your
:15:40. > :15:43.view on leaving the European Union, departure from the single market
:15:44. > :15:50.would be calamitous. Really worrying indicator, this 31 year low drop in
:15:51. > :15:53.the pound, and we have not even left yet. That is what worries me. And
:15:54. > :15:58.what worries me more than anything else is that you've got the British
:15:59. > :16:02.business community, who now feel that the Conservative Party are
:16:03. > :16:06.listening to the English nationalist forces that have taken over the Tory
:16:07. > :16:10.party, rather than to good common-sense business practice. When
:16:11. > :16:15.Roger, who, the Ukip MEP, tells you that you have gone too far here
:16:16. > :16:20.then you probably have gone too far. Iain Duncan Smith, let me bring you
:16:21. > :16:24.back in. We haven't got time for speeches this morning, from either
:16:25. > :16:29.of you. Iain Duncan Smith - don t we need to give just a bit on free
:16:30. > :16:33.movement, to secure open access If we want really good access to the
:16:34. > :16:38.single market, we will have to give something on free movement?
:16:39. > :16:42.Actually, I wrote about a week ago in a paper which set out how you
:16:43. > :16:46.have control of your migration policy which is flexible enough to
:16:47. > :16:50.allow people to come into jobs inside the UK or outside the UK And
:16:51. > :16:53.that is the kind of flexibility which leaves the British Government
:16:54. > :16:57.controlling the idea about how you access work through work permits.
:16:58. > :17:00.That means for higher skilled people, it will be a very light
:17:01. > :17:04.touch regime, but for the low skilled, which is where the most
:17:05. > :17:08.damage has been done, you have tight regime. You say, listen to British
:17:09. > :17:11.businesses - these are the self appointed losers of British
:17:12. > :17:16.business. That meet you something - these are the same people who told
:17:17. > :17:21.us before that Brexit... They told us, just like you did, Tim, that we
:17:22. > :17:24.would crash and burn afterwards there would be a calamitous fall,
:17:25. > :17:32.the British economy would be destroyed. Some of us had a more
:17:33. > :17:40.lofty view. I wish everybody would get calm because what we want is
:17:41. > :17:44.Britain to do well. It is not my party... I have got one more
:17:45. > :17:52.question for you, Tim Farron - why have you now lost a second here in
:17:53. > :17:55.the House of Lords, Baroness Manzoor, who says you are not
:17:56. > :17:58.recognising the will of the people in the referendum by calling for a
:17:59. > :18:06.second referendum? She has joined the Tories, so that's Brive - how
:18:07. > :18:10.many more to go? Well, we are 2 ,000 up, Andrew. It is a peculiar
:18:11. > :18:14.decision which I totally respect. You only need to look at what's
:18:15. > :18:18.happened since June, with the Liberal Democrats gaining 20,00
:18:19. > :18:21.members. Thousands of them from the Conservatives, hundreds since their
:18:22. > :18:25.conference last week. You look at the by-election gains, the Liberal
:18:26. > :18:32.Democrats winning 18 in the last few months, and half of them... You are
:18:33. > :18:40.not set to lose her? I am always sad to lose people, but I am joined
:18:41. > :18:44.overjoyed to have gained 20,000 Come and joiners in the studio next
:18:45. > :18:47.time, where we can get a proper grip on this debate!
:18:48. > :18:49.With Parliament returning tomorrow, Jeremy Corbyn has been
:18:50. > :18:52.reshuffling his Shadow Cabinet, following his thumping win in this
:18:53. > :18:55.And unlike previous reshuffles, it's been a pretty decisive affair,
:18:56. > :18:58.which has seen him give big jobs to his supporters.
:18:59. > :19:02.Mr Corbyn has moved ally Dianne Abbott to Shadow
:19:03. > :19:04.Home Secretary, keeping Emily Thornberry at Shadow
:19:05. > :19:07.Foreign Secretary and moving Clive Lewis to Business.
:19:08. > :19:17.He's been replaced on the Defence brief by Nia Griffith,
:19:18. > :19:23.There's also a job for new Labour peer Shami Chakrabarti,
:19:24. > :19:25.who recently carried out a report into anti-semitism in the party
:19:26. > :19:28.And chief whip Rosie Winterton is out.
:19:29. > :19:34.She's replaced by the veteran whip Nick Brown.
:19:35. > :19:38.You may remember him from the Gordon Brown years.
:19:39. > :19:40.Mr Corbyn has also brought back a number
:19:41. > :19:42.of Shadow Cabinet members, who resigned in protest
:19:43. > :19:46.They include Jon Ashworth, as Shadow Health Secretary.
:19:47. > :19:48.Although he's also been removed from the National Executive
:19:49. > :19:50.Committee, Labour's ruling body where power has been finely balanced
:19:51. > :20:00.Well, to discuss this, we're joined by the Labour MP, John Mann.
:20:01. > :20:08.John Mann, who is a Corbynite critic. Mr Corbyn says this is the
:20:09. > :20:12.most diverse shadow cabinet ever, the best team to take Labour forward
:20:13. > :20:16.- what do you say? Well, it's his choice of team. And I think we
:20:17. > :20:20.should get on with the job now. Think he has won, whether people
:20:21. > :20:29.like it or not. And the last and we want I think is a year of
:20:30. > :20:35.internalised, inward looking navel-gazing. Like the last year?
:20:36. > :20:39.Like the last year. And I have said, I was not in favour of the timing of
:20:40. > :20:42.this challenge, but we actually have to get to grips with the referendum
:20:43. > :20:47.result and the fact that quite a lot of Labour voters voted to leave
:20:48. > :20:51.unlike the general view in the Labour Party. There's lots of issues
:20:52. > :20:54.we should be looking at, but we should not be looking inwards. Is
:20:55. > :20:57.there much of an olive branch from Mr Corbyn to the Parliamentary
:20:58. > :21:01.Labour Party in this? I would not call it an olive branch. But if I
:21:02. > :21:07.was him, I would have done pretty much what he has done. He's won the
:21:08. > :21:11.election. If I was leader, I might choose different people. That
:21:12. > :21:15.probably goes for everyone of the 200-plus members of the
:21:16. > :21:21.Parliamentary party. But I think there is a bit of a... The idea you
:21:22. > :21:27.can negotiate a shadow cabinet or cabinet, I mean, it's important that
:21:28. > :21:30.he has all viewpoints represented somewhere, otherwise we'll be much
:21:31. > :21:34.weaker. And so we wait to see whether every view is going to get
:21:35. > :21:43.proper Leanne Wood. That's vital. But he's got to make the choices. --
:21:44. > :21:51.every view is going to get properly aired.. Quite a lot of London
:21:52. > :21:54.representation - how does that help people like you in the north and the
:21:55. > :21:59.Midlands? It's following the trends of Tony Blair, was always keen on
:22:00. > :22:03.having lots of people who worked in London, and Ed Miliband even more
:22:04. > :22:08.so. So it is not a new trait. He's chosen the people, but what's
:22:09. > :22:11.crucial is, with ceremony people from the metropolitan area, that
:22:12. > :22:16.they spend a lot of time out in areas like mean, not talking to the
:22:17. > :22:20.members, not doing photocalls, they can do that if they want, but going
:22:21. > :22:24.and talking to voters. If they do that, I've got no objection. If they
:22:25. > :22:28.don't, then that will mean that there is not sufficient knowledge of
:22:29. > :22:33.what the wider electorate is thinking. Those shadow cabinet
:22:34. > :22:39.members, every week, should be out there knocking on real doors, in
:22:40. > :22:43.areas that perhaps they are not too familiar with. Keir Starmer, your
:22:44. > :22:50.new shadow Brexit secretary, he has said that there should be a vote on
:22:51. > :22:54.article 50, that when the Government moves it, Parliament should vote.
:22:55. > :22:58.What do you think of that? Well let's see what... We are quite a way
:22:59. > :23:02.away from seeing what Google is going to do. I think what is vital
:23:03. > :23:09.in terms of Brexit is actually to get into the detail, because there's
:23:10. > :23:14.a lot of slogans, the full Brexit, the soft Brexit, the hard Brexit...
:23:15. > :23:21.Actually, the issue is, what access do we get to markets, what access do
:23:22. > :23:26.we give to our markets? And is there any form of restriction on the free
:23:27. > :23:31.movement of labour? They are the three big issues. We need detail.
:23:32. > :23:33.And it's the negotiation not in the British Parliament but with the
:23:34. > :23:38.Germans and the French in particular that is vital. And of course that
:23:39. > :23:41.hasn't begun. Mr Corbyn told us at the Labour Party conference that he
:23:42. > :23:46.was not really that interested in controlling immigration. Keir
:23:47. > :23:51.Starmer said this morning on the BBC that immigration has become down -
:23:52. > :23:55.you must encouraged by that? What a coalition! Keir Starmer as the
:23:56. > :24:00.person responsible I hope we'll be talking to those of us who supported
:24:01. > :24:05.the Leave campaign in the Vale, and more fundamentally, getting out of
:24:06. > :24:10.those areas where the vast majority of Labour voters voted to leave If
:24:11. > :24:15.he's going to do his job properly, that is critical. I'm confident that
:24:16. > :24:18.he will do that. Do you know yet what the party policy is on
:24:19. > :24:22.immigration? I'm sure that will emerge over the time. I do not know
:24:23. > :24:27.what the Conservative Party's ease, either. We do not know what the
:24:28. > :24:32.response of the Germans and the French will be. They have got
:24:33. > :24:36.elections next year. This is rather a movable feast in those countries.
:24:37. > :24:40.Therefore, we should be in 20 new negotiations, as Labour. It's
:24:41. > :24:47.crucial that our leadership talks and listens to Labour voters and to
:24:48. > :24:50.those who have voted Labour in the past.
:24:51. > :24:55.Jeremy Corbyn's re-shuffle has upset the Chair
:24:56. > :24:59.He represents the party's backbench MPs.
:25:00. > :25:02.In an e-mail, John Cryer said Mr Corbyn "did not
:25:03. > :25:05.engage" in a promised plan to reunite the party by allowing MPs
:25:06. > :25:10.Mr Cryer said he had been in talks with the leadership
:25:11. > :25:13.with the aim of "striking an agreement which would allow
:25:14. > :25:16.some places to be filled through elections, while the leader
:25:17. > :25:20.But on Wednesday it became clear "a reshuffle was under way,
:25:21. > :25:27.which had not been discussed or mentioned".
:25:28. > :25:29.Well, we're joined now by Barry Gardiner.
:25:30. > :25:39.He's kept his job as Shadow International Trade Secretary.
:25:40. > :25:45.What happened to the idea of electing at least part of the Shadow
:25:46. > :25:50.Cabinet? Well, I was part of the discussions in the Shadow Cabinet,
:25:51. > :25:54.with Rosie Winterton, who was the chief whip. And she made it very
:25:55. > :25:58.clear that what would need to happen is, there would need to be a vote
:25:59. > :26:03.first of all at the NEC to change the party rules. So I don't think
:26:04. > :26:07.anybody was under any illusion that we could have direct elections now
:26:08. > :26:11.to the Shadow Cabinet without that change in the party rules. Is the
:26:12. > :26:16.idea dead for the foreseeable future? Doormen, is the honest
:26:17. > :26:21.answer. That is for Jeremy to decide. But I think what would be
:26:22. > :26:27.clearly wrong is, if we now going to almost rerunning what was the
:26:28. > :26:30.election contest. And it would be foolish to saddle a leader with a
:26:31. > :26:35.group of people in the Shadow Cabinet that were out of sympathy.
:26:36. > :26:41.And indeed, that was why the Parliamentary Labour Party, when Ed
:26:42. > :26:43.Miliband asked us to give him the right to appoint the Shadow Cabinet,
:26:44. > :26:49.rather than the previous system which had been elected... What do
:26:50. > :26:54.you make of the chair of the Parliamentary Labour Party, Mr
:26:55. > :26:58.Cryer, complaining that Mr Corbyn did not engage with him in this
:26:59. > :27:05.reshuffle? Look, I don't know what discussions took place. John is a
:27:06. > :27:10.very good friend. He's a very good representative of the PLP, as its
:27:11. > :27:13.chair. But he's one of the best connected people in the party, and
:27:14. > :27:20.the idea that anything took face without his knowledge I find it
:27:21. > :27:24.difficult to believe. He says, Niall Quinn OMP backing him up was a
:27:25. > :27:29.charades in the negotiations? That is a separate question. And I don't
:27:30. > :27:35.think that's true at all. Because the Shadow Cabinet said to the
:27:36. > :27:40.previous NEC meeting delegation to actually initiate those
:27:41. > :27:45.negotiations. But I think John Mann, who sat here just a few moments ago,
:27:46. > :27:49.got it absolutely right - the Labour Party now must not look inwards for
:27:50. > :27:52.the next year, it must begin to look outwards. It must be challenging the
:27:53. > :27:59.government on what it is doing in our education system and saying it
:28:00. > :28:01.is wrong to segregate our children. They must be challenging the
:28:02. > :28:07.government on housing and homelessness. I am delighted that
:28:08. > :28:10.John has come back into the Shadow Cabinet, nobody better to take
:28:11. > :28:14.forward our fight for housing in this country. If you want to appeal
:28:15. > :28:18.across the country, are there not too many London metropolitan types
:28:19. > :28:22.at the top? The four great Shadow offices of state all seemed to come
:28:23. > :28:29.from within walking distance of each other. It's a kind of shadow cabinet
:28:30. > :28:32.of all BMW one talents? Well, you could ever welcomed the fact that
:28:33. > :28:49.two of those great offices of state, for the first time ever, are held by
:28:50. > :28:54.women. -- NW1 talents. Broomstick is, it is very London centric. It is
:28:55. > :28:58.not because you have got five MPs from the north-east in the Shadow
:28:59. > :29:02.Cabinet, four from Greater Manchester, all of whom are women.
:29:03. > :29:06.You've got five from Yorkshire. In terms of the population of the
:29:07. > :29:15.country as a whole, it's very representative of whether Labour
:29:16. > :29:20.votes are. John Ashworth accepted the Shadow bridge but is no longer
:29:21. > :29:25.on the National Executive Committee. Does Mr Corbyn now have a majority
:29:26. > :29:31.on the NEC, the ruling body of the Labour Party? The majority would
:29:32. > :29:36.always be on issue by issue. I don't think anybody goes to the NEC
:29:37. > :29:40.determined to wage wall or battle. I assure that people go there to
:29:41. > :29:44.listen to arguments and decide what is in the best interest of the party
:29:45. > :29:48.and the country and take Ossetians accordingly. Why was it important
:29:49. > :29:55.that Mr Ashworth stepped down? I don't know whether it was important.
:29:56. > :30:00.John has been a superb member of the Shadow Cabinet. He has always
:30:01. > :30:05.represented very clearly the views of party members, and I think he
:30:06. > :30:16.will do a fantastic job at health. We will leave it there.
:30:17. > :30:23.I still have energy and can. When we last spoke, I put it to you that we
:30:24. > :30:30.were massive importers of energy including gas. I came here primed
:30:31. > :30:36.for that. Next time I will bring the power with meat!
:30:37. > :30:41.The party with the third highest vote share at the general election
:30:42. > :30:43.has, just since Tuesday, lost a leader, seen
:30:44. > :30:45.the return of Nigel Farage - even if only temporarily -
:30:46. > :30:48.and seen the favourite to take over end up in hospital
:30:49. > :30:50.after an altercation in the European Parliament.
:30:51. > :31:02.Our Ellie's been watching the soap opera unfold.
:31:03. > :31:06.So, we've all heard the rumours about the internal
:31:07. > :31:10.Well, this week, they played out in front of our very eyes on the TV
:31:11. > :31:13.screens in the most dramatic of ways.
:31:14. > :31:20.It was only just over three weeks ago.
:31:21. > :31:33.18 days later, she realised that wasn't going to happen.
:31:34. > :31:35.In her resignation statement, she said she didn't have
:31:36. > :31:37.sufficient authority, nor the full support, of her MEP
:31:38. > :31:40.colleagues and party officers to continue.
:31:41. > :31:43.There was also this clue in the official form she filled
:31:44. > :31:45.in for the Electoral Commission where she signed her name
:31:46. > :31:53.In the meantime, Nigel Farage seemed pretty chipper, explaining
:31:54. > :32:00.I keep getting over the wall and running for the hills.
:32:01. > :32:02.Before I am finally free, they drag me back.
:32:03. > :32:09.It doesn't have one because she's resigned.
:32:10. > :32:12.The Ukip constitution is quite clear.
:32:13. > :32:13.In these circumstances, the National Executive Committee has
:32:14. > :32:18.the right to appoint an interim leader, which I presume it will do
:32:19. > :32:22.at its meeting on the 17th of October.
:32:23. > :32:25.I'm told the NEC might have met earlier but someone
:32:26. > :32:27.is on is on a cruise, so it wouldn't be quorate.
:32:28. > :32:30.It was starting to feel a bit like a soap opera.
:32:31. > :32:36.It's almost like being a part of Dynasty.
:32:37. > :32:39.By close of play, this man, who probably would have been leader
:32:40. > :32:41.last time if he hadn't been barred from standing had thrown
:32:42. > :32:47.But then things went really off script, when he, Steven Woolfe,
:32:48. > :32:51.after a meeting with colleagues that went...
:32:52. > :32:54.There are mixed accounts of what happened.
:32:55. > :32:57.It's two grown men getting involved in an altercation.
:32:58. > :33:05.We're talking about a dispute that finished up physically.
:33:06. > :33:10.I understand there was an argument between some MEPs and Steven,
:33:11. > :33:16.I think, picked a fight with one of them, and came off worst.
:33:17. > :33:19.It later transpired that the MEPs had been arguing about reports that
:33:20. > :33:22.Mr Woolfe had considered defecting to the Tories.
:33:23. > :33:25.That had ended in a scuffle with this man.
:33:26. > :33:36.It was, as people in Hull would say, handbags at dawn.
:33:37. > :33:39.He even tweeted a picture of his hands to prove it.
:33:40. > :33:43.But Mr Woolfe's team questioned that version of events and said his
:33:44. > :33:47.Either way, the two men have been in touch and say
:33:48. > :33:49.they want to meet - handbags and all -
:33:50. > :33:54.But that might not be the end of the story.
:33:55. > :33:56.So, part of Ukip's charm has always been to say and do
:33:57. > :33:59.things the other party would never even dream of.
:34:00. > :34:02.But this week has been different and a number of senior Ukip sources
:34:03. > :34:08.have told me that what happens next will be make or break for the party.
:34:09. > :34:11.They say that will depend on who the next leader is.
:34:12. > :34:13.Before all this happens, Steven Woolfe, seen
:34:14. > :34:16.as a disciple of Nigel Farage, would have been favourite.
:34:17. > :34:21.It must surely have been obvious to anybody, having seen this,
:34:22. > :34:24.that Steven Woolfe, and of course Mike Hookem,
:34:25. > :34:27.I don't think Mike would put his hat into the ring.
:34:28. > :34:30.Surely they can't now consider that either of them could stand
:34:31. > :34:37.The party's biggest donor, Arron Banks,
:34:38. > :34:43.It's fairly indicative of the party split between those who think
:34:44. > :34:45.the new leader should be moulded in Nigel Farage's image,
:34:46. > :34:49.and those who can think of little worse.
:34:50. > :34:54.The party is bigger than any one individual.
:34:55. > :34:56.Everybody has a responsibility within Ukip to safeguard
:34:57. > :35:06.its reputation and that's what I'm asking all people to do now
:35:07. > :35:12.The drama may be over for this week but with the leadership campaign
:35:13. > :35:14.looming, there will be plenty more episodes to come.
:35:15. > :35:16.And we're joined now by the Ukip MEP Bill Etheridge.
:35:17. > :35:18.He was at the meeting where the "altercation"
:35:19. > :35:22.between Steven Woolfe and Mike Hookem took place,
:35:23. > :35:26.and he stood to be leader in the party's last
:35:27. > :35:32.leadership contest, which only finished in September.
:35:33. > :35:43.We have learned, while on-air, that Steven Woolfe has left the hospital
:35:44. > :35:52.in Strasbourg. Bill Etheridge, were punches thrown? First of all, as all
:35:53. > :35:55.MEPs we should apologise to our member ship and supporters for all
:35:56. > :36:00.this nonsense. With regards to punches thrown, I was first on the
:36:01. > :36:07.scene. I did not see punches thrown. I saw Mike with his hands down his
:36:08. > :36:13.side and is Steven Wolfe halfway through and unlatched door. --
:36:14. > :36:18.Steven Woolfe. He was on the floor. Before you got on the scene, there
:36:19. > :36:22.could have been blows exchanged In the 15 to 30 seconds before I got
:36:23. > :36:26.there, there is a possibility but Mike has denied that there were any
:36:27. > :36:32.punches thrown and I have not seen any evidence that their world. The
:36:33. > :36:36.friends of Steven Woolfe has said independent medical examinations
:36:37. > :36:40.suggests he does have wounds and bruising which cannot be explained
:36:41. > :36:44.by simply a fall to the floor. I am sure the chairman of the party will
:36:45. > :36:48.look into that and see the exact information being discussed. When it
:36:49. > :36:56.is something put out by sources or friends, let's wait and see the
:36:57. > :36:59.actual information. Was it the idea of Steven Woolfe that the dispute
:37:00. > :37:04.should be settled outside? Yes, Stephen stood up and said, if this
:37:05. > :37:09.is the temperature of your comments, I think we should sort out
:37:10. > :37:14.man-to-man. He took off his jacket and walked outside. Unfortunately,
:37:15. > :37:17.and he has said he regrets it, Mike went outside and did the same thing
:37:18. > :37:23.himself was that neither of them should have done it. It was foolish.
:37:24. > :37:28.If that is response by Steven Woolfe to an argument, no matter how
:37:29. > :37:33.heated, among his own MEPs, does that disqualify him to stand as
:37:34. > :37:42.leader? It does not disqualify him. It says something about his
:37:43. > :37:44.temperament. What I will say is it was not heated argument at the
:37:45. > :37:46.start. We were discussing the fact he had been in a conversation with
:37:47. > :37:49.the Conservative Party about joining. Only a day or two earlier
:37:50. > :37:53.he had said he was not going to join for that we asked if that was to do
:37:54. > :37:57.with the fact that he heard Diane James was standing down. That was
:37:58. > :38:02.the purpose of the meeting, to find out what Steven Woolfe was doing
:38:03. > :38:06.about the Conservative Party. Due to this altercation, we never got an
:38:07. > :38:12.answer. I personally would like need to know what he was doing. What was
:38:13. > :38:19.said? I and stand this happened quite quickly into the meeting. What
:38:20. > :38:24.was it that was said which meant, take the jacket off, we will settle
:38:25. > :38:29.this outside? Steven Woolfe had said about how upset he was that he could
:38:30. > :38:35.not stand in the summer, his form were late by 17 minutes. Mike said
:38:36. > :38:39.whether it is your fault and no one else's. Steven Woolfe reacted
:38:40. > :38:43.angrily and we could get no further conversation. That was the extent of
:38:44. > :38:50.the provocation, to say it was your fault. He was not swearing but he
:38:51. > :38:54.basically said, that's your fault, it is your responsibility. Are you
:38:55. > :38:59.going to stand in this leadership contest now? Up until this happens,
:39:00. > :39:02.I was seriously considering rolling in to try to make sure we did not
:39:03. > :39:07.have people who had been negative towards the party and towards Nigel
:39:08. > :39:12.taking over. Now I do not feel I can support Steven Woolfe and, yes, I
:39:13. > :39:18.will be standing. Isn't the bitter truth, your previously the last for
:39:19. > :39:23.18 days. Two MPs have now said to step outside and we will sort this
:39:24. > :39:29.with jackets. It is hard to avoid the conclusion that Ukip is not a
:39:30. > :39:34.proper, functioning party without Nigel Farage at the helm? You cannot
:39:35. > :39:39.survive without him. Nigel is a fantastic leader. He has led us very
:39:40. > :39:43.strongly and powerfully. It is up to us to take responsibility. That is
:39:44. > :39:48.one reason I want to do it to bring the party together. Every time he
:39:49. > :39:53.goes quickly fall apart. There is no functioning Ukip I would suggest
:39:54. > :39:56.without Nigel Farage. Up to us to make sure we get systems in place
:39:57. > :40:01.and make sure we have strong leadership and pull the party
:40:02. > :40:05.together. We can do it. We have 4 million voters than 30,000 members.
:40:06. > :40:08.They must be feeling very let down. It is up to us to make sure we do
:40:09. > :40:09.the right thing and look after them and be there to represent them.
:40:10. > :40:12.Thank you. We say goodbye to
:40:13. > :40:17.viewers in Scotland, who leave us now for
:40:18. > :40:19.Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in 20 minutes,
:40:20. > :40:22.the Week Ahead, when we'll be talking about the recording,
:40:23. > :40:24.which some think could derail Donald Trump's bid
:40:25. > :40:26.for the White House. First though,
:40:27. > :40:36.the Sunday Politics where you are. This week we're talking
:40:37. > :40:41.about where real power should lie. Has that Brexit decision made
:40:42. > :40:44.the case stronger for devolution? We look at negotiations
:40:45. > :40:47.going on with government about more responsibilities being transferred
:40:48. > :40:51.to the mayor and London's councils. With me this week, Stephen Hammond,
:40:52. > :40:53.Conservative MP for Wimbledon, and by Karen Buck, Labour MP
:40:54. > :40:56.for North Westminster. Talks aimed at averting a series
:40:57. > :41:04.of strikes have collapsed this week. The RMT union held those talks
:41:05. > :41:07.with Govia Thameslink Railway over proposed changes to the role
:41:08. > :41:11.of the conductors. A series of strikes will now be
:41:12. > :41:14.held, starting with a three-day walk-out next Tuesday,
:41:15. > :41:19.extending a six-month stand-off But never fear, we have
:41:20. > :41:20.our own conciliation Well, a strike is always a sign
:41:21. > :41:28.of failure, unfortunately. I don't think anyone on any side
:41:29. > :41:31.would want that to happen. So, there is absolutely no
:41:32. > :41:33.alternative to getting back We don't want commuters put
:41:34. > :41:39.to the enormous additional distress of having an interrupted service
:41:40. > :41:43.and, in the end, it will be resolved by people getting together
:41:44. > :41:45.and reaching a compromise. So that should be done before strike
:41:46. > :41:49.action rather than after. Stephen Hammond, some suggestion
:41:50. > :41:51.this week of a social media campaign and posters trying to get people
:41:52. > :41:56.to put pressure on the union. Coming out of the time a new offer
:41:57. > :42:00.as well to staff at the same time as Chris Grayling
:42:01. > :42:01.was making his speech Is the Government gradually getting
:42:02. > :42:05.more involved in this one? But Chris is obviously
:42:06. > :42:09.taking an interest in it, in terms of the hardship
:42:10. > :42:12.which has been exacted And you've seen some
:42:13. > :42:17.of the problems, some of it in terms of what's happened to commuters over
:42:18. > :42:19.the last six months, nine months, has been a failure
:42:20. > :42:23.of the company and some of the works done, so Chris was
:42:24. > :42:27.right to get involved. I think what the union is doing
:42:28. > :42:30.is indefensible now. It may well be that in the end
:42:31. > :42:33.they have to get round the table But I think the union's
:42:34. > :42:37.stance is indefensible. The fact is, they've
:42:38. > :42:38.had a new offer. Very few people
:42:39. > :42:44.are actually really believing that the union's stance
:42:45. > :42:46.is about safety. Some of this is about saying,
:42:47. > :42:50."We want to protect our jobs." At a time when you look
:42:51. > :42:53.at other parts of... Where on the Underground
:42:54. > :42:55.do you see a guard? Where on other parts of the national
:42:56. > :42:58.network do you see a guard on some The fact is, the drivers can operate
:42:59. > :43:02.these trains with And this is just putting
:43:03. > :43:06.misery on commuters, We had a go at solving it,
:43:07. > :43:12.let's move on. On the subject of rail,
:43:13. > :43:14.the last government indicated that it was looking seriously
:43:15. > :43:17.at handing control of Southern and other suburban rail franchises
:43:18. > :43:21.to Transport for London, or some of those routes, anyway
:43:22. > :43:23.parts of those franchises. The big issue is whether you would
:43:24. > :43:25.really transfer routes covering areas outside London
:43:26. > :43:31.to the capital's transport agency. In City Hall there are worries
:43:32. > :43:35.the trail might have gone cold. It's just one negotiation
:43:36. > :43:37.going on into the possible transfer of more powers to the mayor
:43:38. > :43:41.and to London's councils, too. Whitehall, in the heart
:43:42. > :43:46.of Westminster, home to the country's top civil servants,
:43:47. > :43:49.and arguably the street that Britain, by many measures,
:43:50. > :43:53.is the most centralised state of any country
:43:54. > :43:56.in the Western world, something we've been
:43:57. > :43:58.gradually moving away The coming of Greater London
:43:59. > :44:03.Authority, the Mayor and Assembly in 2000,
:44:04. > :44:07.it's now 16 plus years old. It was a kind of devolution to
:44:08. > :44:09.London. And now even more looks set
:44:10. > :44:14.to come London's way. So, should Sadiq Khan be given
:44:15. > :44:20.control over even more of your life? There is currently a negotiation
:44:21. > :44:23.going on in the corridors of power about a new devolution package,
:44:24. > :44:25.rumoured to include things like the justice system,
:44:26. > :44:28.the Health Service, more So, the question is really,
:44:29. > :44:36.what is it going to get To answer those questions,
:44:37. > :44:41.we asked the key players involved. It's absolutely something
:44:42. > :44:44.we're in conversation We also want to look at what we can
:44:45. > :44:51.devolve down to our borough councils and we want to get
:44:52. > :44:54.the relationship right between all the layers
:44:55. > :44:55.in government. Coming back to the housing
:44:56. > :44:57.problems we face here, we need to get the Government,
:44:58. > :45:00.the mayor on the borough councils So if it's councils getting some
:45:01. > :45:04.of these new powers, If we sell a council home we're
:45:05. > :45:10.really limited in the ways We can only use a third of it
:45:11. > :45:14.to build a new property, and it just means we are not
:45:15. > :45:18.providing replacement council homes. We would like to see the rules
:45:19. > :45:20.changed around that. There are planning rules which make
:45:21. > :45:22.life really difficult Another example would be,
:45:23. > :45:27.in recent years, you've been able to turn office accommodation
:45:28. > :45:32.into residential accommodation through permitted development rights
:45:33. > :45:35.without any planning permission But one key negotiation
:45:36. > :45:39.with the Government might be hitting Under David Cameron,
:45:40. > :45:42.Transport for London was due to take over the Government's role
:45:43. > :45:46.in our suburban rail services. But the new Transport Secretary
:45:47. > :45:48.Chris Grayling turned down Sadiq Khan's offer
:45:49. > :45:50.of taking over the troubled Southern I'm disappointed the Government
:45:51. > :45:59.has declined my offer. The Government is sending
:46:00. > :46:03.in another team. So, does he think this
:46:04. > :46:06.risks getting derailed? I think the change in personnel
:46:07. > :46:09.all-around has meant that there s been some slowing down
:46:10. > :46:10.on this programme. But we cannot afford
:46:11. > :46:14.to lose the pace on this. The DfT starts work
:46:15. > :46:19.on the south-eastern So we need, within the next few
:46:20. > :46:23.weeks, to see the administrative changes to start managing
:46:24. > :46:27.the South East rail network over And if we can get the devolution
:46:28. > :46:32.of these services to London, we know we can run
:46:33. > :46:35.them somewhat better. we know we can run
:46:36. > :46:37.them so much better. In the election campaign,
:46:38. > :46:39.Conservatives repeatedly said that their candidate, Zac Goldsmith,
:46:40. > :46:42.would be able to win a better deal for London from the Government
:46:43. > :46:45.than his Labour rival. We'll soon find out how much truth
:46:46. > :46:48.there might have been to that claim. Let's pick up on the transport,
:46:49. > :46:52.the suburban rail routes. Stephen Hammond - do you think
:46:53. > :46:55.there has been any kind of change with Chris Grayling coming
:46:56. > :46:57.in, is he less keen, government certainly
:46:58. > :47:02.gave more powers to TfL. We saw that on the West Anglian
:47:03. > :47:09.route. We've see the Overground working
:47:10. > :47:11.well, although it's had some hiccups I think Chris will want to assess
:47:12. > :47:17.the package again very carefully, because it does have major
:47:18. > :47:20.implications in terms of the deficit, in terms
:47:21. > :47:21.of accountability for It has real implications
:47:22. > :47:28.for the new franchise. And he will want to make sure that
:47:29. > :47:31.TfL can provide in that area the services that they claim
:47:32. > :47:33.they can provide This is not as easy as the rest
:47:34. > :47:37.of the network, it's more complex. I think if Chris Grayling
:47:38. > :47:39.is checking that out, In his speech he made it clear,
:47:40. > :47:44.he's putting passengers at the heart of everything
:47:45. > :47:47.he does, he says. Do you get the impression he's not
:47:48. > :47:49.convinced that transferring these to Transport for
:47:50. > :47:51.London is the answer? But I would think that quite
:47:52. > :47:59.rightly, the mantra has to be that the commuter and the passenger
:48:00. > :48:03.needs to be the champion. And he will want to be absolutely
:48:04. > :48:11.convinced that TfL can do that. Because there are some quite big
:48:12. > :48:15.financial indications for TfL as well, and how long some of that
:48:16. > :48:18.upgrade will take. And I'm sure that he is quite
:48:19. > :48:20.rightly assessing that TfL can But you will know that
:48:21. > :48:27.Patrick McLoughlin, as Transport Secretary,
:48:28. > :48:29.and Boris Johnson as mayor, they gave a clear impression
:48:30. > :48:35.that this was going to happen. That was pre-election and of course
:48:36. > :48:37.Boris Johnson was not standing, but would you think there has been
:48:38. > :48:40.some kind of change? I think as I pointed out earlier,
:48:41. > :48:43.when Patrick McLoughlin was Secretary of State and Boris
:48:44. > :48:46.was mayor, we looked at the various options -
:48:47. > :48:50.the first was to do the Western Anglian option,
:48:51. > :48:52.that was very popular with everybody, members
:48:53. > :48:55.of Parliament as well as commuters This one has always
:48:56. > :49:01.been more problematic. Lots of opposition, mainly
:49:02. > :49:06.from outside London, about, who is going to be accountable
:49:07. > :49:08.if the services go wrong? where you split the franchise,
:49:09. > :49:14.if you're going to split it, in inner London get a great deal
:49:15. > :49:20.as well as the outer London, making sure that TfL
:49:21. > :49:22.can actually deliver. Obvious difficulties -
:49:23. > :49:23.should it be something I completely understand
:49:24. > :49:29.that there needs to be due diligence on all of this,
:49:30. > :49:32.and there are clearly, as Stephen says, people
:49:33. > :49:36.want to be reassured outside London that the service
:49:37. > :49:39.will be delivered well. But I think it's absolutely clear
:49:40. > :49:42.from TfL's transport record in recent years,
:49:43. > :49:45.including the management of the Overground services
:49:46. > :49:53.inside London, which were transferred earlier,
:49:54. > :49:55.that they have got a really good record of delivering
:49:56. > :50:00.on these projects. And the integration of the Overland
:50:01. > :50:03.into the other parts of the network So I very much hope that there isn't
:50:04. > :50:08.a cooling off on this. The new Transport Secretary
:50:09. > :50:11.is looking for signs of investment, so he will probably be alarmed
:50:12. > :50:13.by a Labour mayor, who, to win the election,
:50:14. > :50:16.made such a reckless promise as to say was going to freeze fares
:50:17. > :50:18.for four years or whatever, denying
:50:19. > :50:19.himself potential income? Sadeeq's and the TfL's ability
:50:20. > :50:27.to manage this system and ensure that there is a proper balance
:50:28. > :50:30.between what we do on fares and investment, there's a really
:50:31. > :50:33.good record of delivering on this. And I think that people
:50:34. > :50:35.have benefited so much. It's understood that people have
:50:36. > :50:37.benefited from integration, from the roll-out of Oyster
:50:38. > :50:39.and so forth. And really, I can't see that
:50:40. > :50:42.when you look at the track record of performance,
:50:43. > :50:44.that there are that many worries. There's so much to gain
:50:45. > :50:50.from all of this. In a city, and it's a rapidly
:50:51. > :50:55.growing city, London, we need to be We have to know that there
:50:56. > :51:01.is an ability to change to meet the needs of the growing
:51:02. > :51:03.city and economy. On the wider issue of negotiations
:51:04. > :51:08.or chat about what could usefully be moved to a lower level,
:51:09. > :51:10.if you like, to the mayor, what are the important
:51:11. > :51:13.things to you? What about the suggestion
:51:14. > :51:15.on planning, that the mayor's policy should somehow take precedence over
:51:16. > :51:22.national policy, is that a goer I would certainly
:51:23. > :51:26.like to see a lot more freedom around the issues
:51:27. > :51:28.of planning and housing. And for the reasons which London
:51:29. > :51:31.councils have spelt out. I think there are issues
:51:32. > :51:34.about the relaxation of development rules which have had a really
:51:35. > :51:37.serious impact on parts of London. Too small really to bother
:51:38. > :51:40.a national government but actually And I think they should
:51:41. > :51:49.have the freedom to do that. I think we absolutely have to have
:51:50. > :51:53.more freedom to use the investment on housing to meet the needs
:51:54. > :51:56.of London, to respond to London s housing crisis, which is
:51:57. > :51:59.absolutely catastrophic. But the other that I really hope
:52:00. > :52:02.we can see some progress Because we do need to make sure
:52:03. > :52:07.that we are able to act strategically to meet the needs
:52:08. > :52:10.of London's economy. Is that something that
:52:11. > :52:13.the boroughs should be doing, I think some of it is clearly
:52:14. > :52:21.strategic. You look at the fact
:52:22. > :52:24.that our young adult population in skills training, move around
:52:25. > :52:27.the city so much that there is clearly an interest
:52:28. > :52:29.in making sure that that kind of skills training is looked
:52:30. > :52:32.at at a strategic level. Would you agree, say,
:52:33. > :52:35.on the housing planning issue, it's time to let things
:52:36. > :52:39.go from the centre? I certainly agree with Karen
:52:40. > :52:42.that we must look to make sure that London, at the levels of government
:52:43. > :52:45.which are appropriate, have the powers to make sure
:52:46. > :52:48.we build more houses in London. Being able to keep more receipts
:52:49. > :52:52.from the sale of...? There's been negotiation on that
:52:53. > :52:55.through the housing bill last year, which increased the receipts
:52:56. > :52:58.which will be I think it's absolutely right
:52:59. > :53:02.that some of those... As the Minister for London
:53:03. > :53:05.intimated, there's pretty intense discussions going on at the moment
:53:06. > :53:08.as to the appropriate level, and at what level do
:53:09. > :53:11.we build more houses? I also hope we look at some
:53:12. > :53:14.of the rules on restricting some of the housing
:53:15. > :53:19.associations at the moment. Get on and build
:53:20. > :53:21.regardless of tenure. Let's work out the tenure
:53:22. > :53:22.afterwards in terms But I think getting it right
:53:23. > :53:33.to the right level is key. I also agree, there is an outbreak
:53:34. > :53:36.of unanimity here...! I always enjoy a good scrap on this
:53:37. > :53:44.programme, actually! There's been enough of that this
:53:45. > :53:57.week elsewhere! Not in my party After Brexit, there will be a big
:53:58. > :54:06.skills deficit in this country. Getting the skills agenda right
:54:07. > :54:09.in London, making sure that local authorities are providing
:54:10. > :54:10.the further education colleges, linked into the overall strategic
:54:11. > :54:13.message, some of it will be coming in from the private sector
:54:14. > :54:16.and the universities as well, is going to be key for this city
:54:17. > :54:18.continuing to thrive. After all that is what both of us
:54:19. > :54:22.are elected in politics to do. Moving on - they're going down
:54:23. > :54:24.nearly everywhere else in the country, but in London
:54:25. > :54:26.they're about to go up. The hype has come about as a result
:54:27. > :54:30.of a re-evaluation. In some parts of the capital,
:54:31. > :54:33.the rise has been pretty steep. Our correspondent now
:54:34. > :54:35.reports from Waterloo. From next year, businesses
:54:36. > :54:37.like these will find themselves All firms pay business rates based
:54:38. > :54:41.on the value of their premises. Due to the property prices in London
:54:42. > :54:43.soaring, business rates Business rates are going down
:54:44. > :54:47.everywhere in the country, apart from one place -
:54:48. > :54:50.London. Rates are going up on average 1 %,
:54:51. > :54:54.although some London businesses say their taxes
:54:55. > :54:56.will more than double. This person has been in the tool
:54:57. > :54:59.trade for 30 years. Until no, he says his shops
:55:00. > :55:01.have been thriving. He will be closing one next year,
:55:02. > :55:04.he claims, because of the tax hikes. We've got nine branches in central
:55:05. > :55:09.London and we will be hit severely. We're looking at a net increase
:55:10. > :55:13.of about 26% across-the-board. The new rates come at a time
:55:14. > :55:16.when important reforms are under way The Government is moving to councils
:55:17. > :55:23.keeping all their business rates, and the growth
:55:24. > :55:25.that comes with them. So, the more they can grow the local
:55:26. > :55:28.economy, the more business rates they get in, the more
:55:29. > :55:31.the council will keep. But are these reforms missing
:55:32. > :55:33.a trick, when so much business Business rates have
:55:34. > :55:39.never been a great tax. They don't relate to
:55:40. > :55:41.profitability of companies. Lots of new kinds of Internet-based
:55:42. > :55:44.companies can effectively avoid them whilst traditional
:55:45. > :55:46.businesses pay them. So there's all sorts
:55:47. > :55:49.of difficulties. Faced with the challenges
:55:50. > :55:53.of the internet, competition from large chains and increased
:55:54. > :55:56.rates, we might be seeing the slow Stephen, we're hurting
:55:57. > :56:03.businesses...? We're not hurting businesses,
:56:04. > :56:10.this is a national revaluation, and the review has come up,
:56:11. > :56:13.and it is affecting London. I think the key is also,
:56:14. > :56:17.local authorities have a reasonable amount of discretion in certain
:56:18. > :56:19.areas to use small business rate I'm keen that local
:56:20. > :56:26.authorities look at that. I think what Tony Travers has said
:56:27. > :56:29.is that the changing way in which we do business,
:56:30. > :56:32.it's a very good idea to allow local authorities to keep the business
:56:33. > :56:35.rate and to grow local economies. But in the changing way this
:56:36. > :56:40.country does business, we're going to have to look
:56:41. > :56:43.over the next few years at whether the business rate
:56:44. > :56:45.is the appropriate way Because if you have only corporate
:56:46. > :56:49.taxation, how does that get down But the key thing in London
:56:50. > :56:55.is making sure that particularly in a number of areas where councils
:56:56. > :56:58.have the ability to use relief, And these big hikes
:56:59. > :57:01.are mainly hitting some big They're hitting central
:57:02. > :57:05.London particularly. But they are valuations in line
:57:06. > :57:08.with values, that's the point. It is just that it has been six
:57:09. > :57:11.or seven years, so it feels And this is the problem
:57:12. > :57:14.when you delay valuations, But the really catastrophic part
:57:15. > :57:21.of this is that it's a soaring tax rise, particularly hitting central
:57:22. > :57:24.London, at the same time as we're And we really have to be absolutely
:57:25. > :57:29.sure that with London being such a huge contributor
:57:30. > :57:32.to the national economy, that we don't choke off
:57:33. > :57:35.London's economic growth. I think the critical thing
:57:36. > :57:37.is what we do around transitional relief,
:57:38. > :57:40.to make sure that there is enough We do not want the small businesses
:57:41. > :57:49.such as the ones you just saw in your report to go
:57:50. > :57:51.out of business. It is not just about the big
:57:52. > :57:53.players, it's about keeping Briefly, both of you,
:57:54. > :57:58.what about the idea that in future, that all the business rates should
:57:59. > :58:00.be retained by local authorities? Presumably it cannot work
:58:01. > :58:02.because somebody like Westminster would make huge amounts,
:58:03. > :58:05.and other boroughs wouldn't? Or is it just about getting
:58:06. > :58:09.the formula right? Clearly there will always be
:58:10. > :58:12.a degree of redistribution, because otherwise, as you say,
:58:13. > :58:16.you would end up with a tiny part of the country enjoying enormous
:58:17. > :58:19.wealth and income and other But coming back to London,
:58:20. > :58:27.if London has got a population the size of Scotland and Wales
:58:28. > :58:31.combined, we should have more powers to retain some of the money
:58:32. > :58:43.generated and use it, including using targeted
:58:44. > :58:44.relief, and supporting Stephen, do you think perhaps
:58:45. > :58:49.Theresa May is not so committed to the devolutionary principle, does
:58:50. > :58:52.not seem especially keen on this? I don't think that anything
:58:53. > :58:54.that she said in any of her speeches, the two
:58:55. > :58:56.speeches she made at the Tory Party Conference this week,
:58:57. > :58:59.would lead you to that conclusion. I think she's been talking
:59:00. > :59:03.about making sure that people everywhere in the country get
:59:04. > :59:06.the chance to have the opportunity to live great lives
:59:07. > :59:08.and to fulfil their potential. And she's also talked about making
:59:09. > :59:11.sure that the regions get Now it's time for the rest
:59:12. > :59:21.of the news in 60 seconds. London's Mayor, Sadiq Khan,
:59:22. > :59:27.has outlined plans for greener Thames river crossings in the east
:59:28. > :59:31.of the city. But plans for a road tunnel
:59:32. > :59:33.from the Royal Docks to the Greenwich Peninsular
:59:34. > :59:37.were criticised by protesters, who said he was
:59:38. > :59:42.betraying air quality pledges. The mayor launched a new task force
:59:43. > :59:45.to help tackle what he called the shameful rise in the number
:59:46. > :59:47.of people It came as new figures revealed that
:59:48. > :59:55.over 8000 people slept on the streets of the capital last
:59:56. > :59:58.year for at least one night. That is a 7% increase
:59:59. > :00:02.on the year before. At the Conservative Party
:00:03. > :00:04.Conference, Theresa May called for a more even settlement
:00:05. > :00:09.across the country. We see division and
:00:10. > :00:15.unfairness all-around - between a more prosperous older
:00:16. > :00:17.generation and a struggling younger generation,
:00:18. > :00:20.between the wealth of London And Stephen Hammond,
:00:21. > :00:31.the Prime Minister appeared to be picking up on something
:00:32. > :00:34.Philip Hammond had been saying, about issues where London
:00:35. > :00:37.was pretty good, doing much better, but there was a need to rebalance
:00:38. > :00:40.the economy elsewhere. Do you feel that might signal
:00:41. > :00:43.something for the future of London, that we might not get as much
:00:44. > :00:46.attention as we might like? I think Philip Hammond
:00:47. > :00:49.and Theresa May are talking in good Conservative tradition
:00:50. > :00:52.about levelling up, We should not be affecting London,
:00:53. > :00:58.London is a great global city, spreading wealth to other parts
:00:59. > :01:01.of the country. We want other parts of the country,
:01:02. > :01:07.both cities and counties, to become wealthier,
:01:08. > :01:09.to see better productivity and to be It's about levelling
:01:10. > :01:12.up the whole country. Are you able to form any impression
:01:13. > :01:15.that that is what she might be heading towards, I mean after all,
:01:16. > :01:18.there is a Labour mayor here? I think the Government needs
:01:19. > :01:23.to put its money where its mouth is. They have absolutely hammered skills
:01:24. > :01:25.investment, which is critical So I really think that they should
:01:26. > :01:31.be backing off from some of these cuts that we've seen to vital
:01:32. > :01:36.further education training. But in the end, if Sadiq Khan
:01:37. > :01:39.is given these powers and resources in order to be able to manage even
:01:40. > :01:44.within the existing budget, it will be done better,
:01:45. > :01:46.it will be done more The key part of productivity
:01:47. > :01:50.is investment in infrastructure One of the key things
:01:51. > :01:53.coming out of this week, is that Mrs May is absolutely
:01:54. > :01:59.certain that this country needs Are you happy with the silver
:02:00. > :02:07.town tunnel, would you I think there is a good case
:02:08. > :02:14.for another crossing to the east. I think we've gone through
:02:15. > :02:16.that several times. The question is, where
:02:17. > :02:19.it is and what it is. I have no doubt that
:02:20. > :02:23.I would be keen to see one. Sadiq Khan had been accused by some
:02:24. > :02:26.of giving the impression that he was not going to go
:02:27. > :02:29.for this tunnel, that it And he has therefore been accused
:02:30. > :02:36.by some of betrayal by going ahead with the Silver Town
:02:37. > :02:38.Tunnel - do you agree? I do not know enough
:02:39. > :02:40.about the details of But I know that in terms
:02:41. > :02:45.of air quality, that was It is going to be one
:02:46. > :02:53.of the drivers, dealing with some And traffic is very much
:02:54. > :02:57.at the heart of that. So I think judge Sadiq Khan
:02:58. > :03:01.on the overall progress on air quality, which I know
:03:02. > :03:03.will be a high priority. And just finally, what about
:03:04. > :03:06.the Silver Town Tunnel, for cyclists, put your bike on a bus
:03:07. > :03:10.to go through the tunnel We should be encouraging
:03:11. > :03:16.people to cycle. Is Sadiq Khan going
:03:17. > :03:21.to break another one On that controversial
:03:22. > :03:44.note, both of you, thank Just what exactly is the
:03:45. > :03:51.Government's see an asking fans to recall how many foreign workers they
:03:52. > :03:57.employ? Has Donald Trump's is at a campaign been halted ill of the
:03:58. > :04:02.water line? Two big questions for our Week Ahead. The Home Office is
:04:03. > :04:07.pumping out briefings as we speak, trying to clarify what the Tubman
:04:08. > :04:18.Palacios, announced by Amber Rudd at the Tory conference. -- the
:04:19. > :04:23.Government plan is. They wanted companies having lists of people who
:04:24. > :04:27.worked. Now it may be just industrywide for that we're not
:04:28. > :04:32.going to name the companies or publish any lists. And it sounds
:04:33. > :04:36.like a classic party conference kite flyers and it has gone hideously
:04:37. > :04:40.wrong when even the brother of the Home Secretary is hitting out at it.
:04:41. > :04:45.Lotsa people would not have a problem imprisonable with the idea
:04:46. > :04:49.companies having to give an idea of the proportion of foreign workers
:04:50. > :04:56.employed. Where it gets sinister is where you are naming people and that
:04:57. > :05:01.becomes very difficult. Does not seem that the Government, even as it
:05:02. > :05:06.badly briefed this out, posted the Amber red speech there was never the
:05:07. > :05:13.intention of publishing a list of there being 500 migrants working for
:05:14. > :05:19.this company and these are the names. That would be absurd. What is
:05:20. > :05:23.the point? The latest line is it would be a private list for
:05:24. > :05:27.government. It reflects a bigger problem. Individually, these
:05:28. > :05:31.measures, you can see a principled argument. There was an avalanche
:05:32. > :05:36.building up with a hostile climate towards migrants. That might start
:05:37. > :05:43.making people queasy. Lots of parents have been text being and
:05:44. > :05:49.saying whether their children have a passport. You are going to need to
:05:50. > :05:58.do this data collection. It makes people uneasy. There was a plus in
:05:59. > :06:02.the idea. Ed Miliband had proposed something similar. The Americans do
:06:03. > :06:06.it. The idea that we look at those industries or companies where there
:06:07. > :06:09.is a high proportion of migrant workers, it sends a message that
:06:10. > :06:13.that is where our skilled effort should go. We should be training the
:06:14. > :06:18.people here already in these skills because we are short of them. That
:06:19. > :06:26.would seem to be part of a sensible labour market policy. But that, I
:06:27. > :06:30.would suggest to you, is entirely lost in this. It has been a
:06:31. > :06:35.catastrophe in the way has been put out. What you have is different
:06:36. > :06:40.levels of what Brexit looks like. The Home Secretary voted for Remain
:06:41. > :06:44.and the Prime Minister voted for Remain. They are all trying to be
:06:45. > :06:48.tough. If you speak to Amber Road when she does not think there should
:06:49. > :06:52.be any controls over skilled immigration. The message wit is
:06:53. > :07:00.coming through is we are going to clamp down on this stuff. -- which
:07:01. > :07:05.is coming through. She is broadly liberal in outlets. Was she trying
:07:06. > :07:09.to be more Brexit than Brexit? It is a really difficult position for that
:07:10. > :07:13.she is running the department that will have to implement all the
:07:14. > :07:21.things she does not believe in. Theresa May is failing to implement
:07:22. > :07:28.proper immigration controls. She is following Mrs May in the job she has
:07:29. > :07:35.to do. Let's move on to something rather bigger. This is this video,
:07:36. > :07:40.broadcast, which has emerged of the Republican presidential candidate,
:07:41. > :07:45.Donald Trump. It seems to be a watershed moment in the presidential
:07:46. > :07:51.campaign of 2016. He is caught on tape making lewd comments about
:07:52. > :08:12.women. It is a long tape so let s have a look at a part of it.
:08:13. > :08:20.And there is lots more where that came from. Yesterday other tapes
:08:21. > :08:22.came out of Mr Trump making inappropriate remarks in the past
:08:23. > :08:30.when the microphone was also running. Yesterday in the United
:08:31. > :08:34.States has been a remarkable day, almost unprecedented. Senior
:08:35. > :08:39.Republicans are now poised to abandon Mr Trump as Republican
:08:40. > :08:44.candidate. Two dozen Republican lawmakers have already disowned him.
:08:45. > :08:49.Senior figures like Senator Mike Leigh of Utah and John McCain, who
:08:50. > :08:56.was the Republican candidate several years ago from Arizona. Senator --
:08:57. > :09:05.the Senator in New Hampshire who has a tough race to work. We are joined
:09:06. > :09:10.by Jan from publicans Overseas. This is a catastrophe for your party It
:09:11. > :09:14.is. It is not as catastrophic as people are making it. You have
:09:15. > :09:19.listed the elites. They are the ones that loss throughout the primaries.
:09:20. > :09:25.Jeb Bush wasted 154 million. Monitoring all the polls, it is only
:09:26. > :09:32.making Trump's port is that much stronger. May be the elites were
:09:33. > :09:38.right that Mr Trump was a wholly unsuitable person to be your party's
:09:39. > :09:41.and did it. Is he unsuitable? How much of understanding what the
:09:42. > :09:51.voters want and how much they messed up the Government plays into it I
:09:52. > :10:01.am beyond being able to defend him. Yes, I am. Is number of people in
:10:02. > :10:05.your party are poised to disown him? There is another part for me. As a
:10:06. > :10:10.psychologist I wrote an international bestseller where I
:10:11. > :10:17.interviewed 4000 men and followed slides. Some of this is not
:10:18. > :10:21.shocking. I have experienced men in power who speak as Donald Trump
:10:22. > :10:26.does. You may not want someone like that as president. The Republican
:10:27. > :10:31.National committee has, as of now, frozen any further spending on the
:10:32. > :10:36.Donald Trump presidential campaign. The Republican National committee. I
:10:37. > :10:41.agree that they needed to do this if they wanted to even retain any women
:10:42. > :10:46.in the party. This has been a very smart move. Basically, we need to
:10:47. > :10:49.watch the debate tonight. I can come on your show tomorrow and tell you
:10:50. > :10:58.whether it is all over or not. This debate could well be major in Saint
:10:59. > :11:02.Louis. Nine o'clock UK time cost of the people who are worried now are
:11:03. > :11:06.the senators, who are up for re-election. There are a lot of
:11:07. > :11:11.them, a lot more than Democrats The House is all up. They are up every
:11:12. > :11:14.two years, and governors are up for re-election as well. They are
:11:15. > :11:18.terrified. They thought they could do is to budget with Donald Trump as
:11:19. > :11:26.head of the ticket. Now they are really worried they cannot. There is
:11:27. > :11:29.not time to get rid of him, as I understand it from legal opinions
:11:30. > :11:31.which have come out. There is not enough time. Only if he is willing
:11:32. > :11:35.to go. Clearly he is not. This interview says it all. The comments
:11:36. > :11:41.are basically indefensible. What can you say apart from it being locker
:11:42. > :11:45.room banter. The real danger is the debate tonight, I think this could
:11:46. > :11:50.be the most explosive debate we have ever seen in American politics.
:11:51. > :11:56.Donald Trump is that only play is to drag Bill Clinton into this. He said
:11:57. > :12:01.that Bill Clinton said worse things on the golf course. There is a great
:12:02. > :12:05.phrase from Ronald Reagan on Gary Hart back in 1988 saying, boys
:12:06. > :12:09.should be boys but boy should not be president either. I think tonight
:12:10. > :12:14.you will see boys being boys again. Some Republicans are saying that
:12:15. > :12:19.Donald Trump should be replaced by the governor of Indiana. The problem
:12:20. > :12:24.is, the ballot papers have already been printed. 400,000 have already
:12:25. > :12:28.voted in the election in early voting and, constitutionally, it is
:12:29. > :12:33.by no means clear that you can, at this late stage, drop the top of the
:12:34. > :12:38.ticket and replace him with somebody else. They have not been a great
:12:39. > :12:45.deal of opposition research done on Mike pence. This is the same as with
:12:46. > :12:51.Bernie Sanders. You do not know until you get into the heat of the
:12:52. > :12:56.election. There are prominent Republicans saying that is an
:12:57. > :12:59.option. It is extraordinary to think this is the point where people have
:13:00. > :13:04.ditched him. There has been comment after comment and relating to the
:13:05. > :13:08.fact he was already falling in the polls after the Republican National
:13:09. > :13:12.Convention who was becoming within a whisker that he was catching up with
:13:13. > :13:16.Hillary Clinton. Now he has tailed away four. A senior Republican said
:13:17. > :13:20.to me, we have lost the White House and need to do what we can to hold
:13:21. > :13:26.on to the Senate figures really badly, we could lose that as well.
:13:27. > :13:30.It is very serious right now. For one who would like a Republican in
:13:31. > :13:35.the White House and to us to retain the Senate, and Congress, it is
:13:36. > :13:40.going to be worrying. As I said we need to see what happens tonight and
:13:41. > :13:44.then we are going to really know. Live from Saint Louis it will be on
:13:45. > :13:54.the BBC News Channel at nine o'clock London time. Get in the popcorn and
:13:55. > :14:00.maybe an extra bottle of Blue None! The Daily Politics will be back from
:14:01. > :14:02.midday tomorrow. Remember, if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.