:00:35. > :00:38.Morning folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:39. > :00:41.Theresa May says she'll deliver on Brexit but does that mean leaving
:00:42. > :00:46.the EU's Single Market and the Customs Union?
:00:47. > :00:48.Tory MPs campaign for a commitment from the Prime
:00:49. > :01:01.The Chancellor pledges just over a billion pounds worth of spending
:01:02. > :01:07.on Britain's roads but is that it or will there be
:01:08. > :01:12.Their last leader was just 18 days in the job.
:01:13. > :01:14.Now the second UKIP leadership election this year
:01:15. > :01:17.So who can restore order to this fractious party?
:01:18. > :01:27.in London: Is the battle for Richmond Park based on the skies? Or
:01:28. > :01:35.is it about a bigger conflict in Europe?
:01:36. > :01:39.And with me - as always - and, no, these three aren't doing
:01:40. > :01:43.the Mannequin challenge - it's our dynamic, demonstrative
:01:44. > :01:45.dazzling political panel - Helen Lewis, Isabel Oakeshott
:01:46. > :01:49.and Tom Newton Dunn they'll also be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:50. > :01:54.First this morning - Theresa May has said
:01:55. > :01:57."Brexit means Brexit" - but can the Prime Minister -
:01:58. > :01:59.who was on the Remain side of argument during the referendum
:02:00. > :02:07.Well, Leave-supporting Tory MPs are re-launching
:02:08. > :02:15.the "European Research Group" this morning to keep Mrs May's feet
:02:16. > :02:24.Are you worried that you cannot trust Theresa May until payment to
:02:25. > :02:30.deliver full Brexit was Magellan like I totally trust Theresa May,
:02:31. > :02:34.100% behind her. She has displayed a massive amount of commitment to
:02:35. > :02:37.making a success of Brexit for the country.
:02:38. > :02:41.We don't know that yet, because nothing has happened. Why, then
:02:42. > :02:48.have you formed a pressure group? We were fed up with the negativity
:02:49. > :02:52.coming out around Brexit. I feel positive about the opportunities we
:02:53. > :02:55.face, and we are a group to provide suggestions. Who do you have in mind
:02:56. > :03:02.when you talk about negativity the Chancellor? No, from the Lib Dems,
:03:03. > :03:09.for example, from Labour MPs. This is a pressure group for leaving
:03:10. > :03:14.membership of the single market and customs union, correct? That is what
:03:15. > :03:17.we are proposing. It has a purpose other than just to combat
:03:18. > :03:21.negativity. When it comes to membership of the single market and
:03:22. > :03:26.the customs union, can you tell us what Government policy is towards
:03:27. > :03:30.both or either? Rightly, the Government hasn't made the position
:03:31. > :03:35.clear, and I think that is the right approach, because we don't want to
:03:36. > :03:42.review our negotiating hand. What we're saying... I'm not asking what
:03:43. > :03:44.you are saying. Can you tell us what Government policy is towards
:03:45. > :03:49.membership of these institutions? The Government wants to make sure
:03:50. > :03:53.British businesses have the right to trade with EU partners, to forge new
:03:54. > :04:01.trade deals with the rest of the world. We hope to Reza may speak at
:04:02. > :04:04.Mansion house this week. -- we had Theresa May speak at Mansion house
:04:05. > :04:10.this week. She has been clear, saying it was not a binary choice.
:04:11. > :04:13.And she's right. Let's run that tape, because I want to pick up on
:04:14. > :04:18.what she did say. This is what she had to say about the customs union
:04:19. > :04:23.at Prime Minister's Question Time. On the whole question of the customs
:04:24. > :04:26.union, trading relationships that we have with the European Union and
:04:27. > :04:31.other parts of the world once we have left the European Union, we are
:04:32. > :04:41.preparing carefully for the formal negotiations. We are preparing
:04:42. > :04:44.carefully for the formal negotiations. We want to ensure we
:04:45. > :04:50.have the best possible trading deal with the EU once we have left. Do
:04:51. > :04:54.you know what she means when she says being in the customs union is
:04:55. > :04:58.not a binary choice? I think she's right when she says that. At the
:04:59. > :05:03.moment, and you know this, as long as we are in the customs union, we
:05:04. > :05:06.cannot set our own tariffs or rules, cannot have a free trade agreement
:05:07. > :05:12.with the US or China. We need to leave a customs union to do that.
:05:13. > :05:16.Binary means either you are in or you are out, self which is it? We
:05:17. > :05:20.still want to trade with the EU and I think we can have a free trade
:05:21. > :05:27.agreement with the EU. That is a separate matter, and it has to do
:05:28. > :05:31.with the single market. What about the customs union? We need to leave
:05:32. > :05:36.the customs union. We do it and properly. That is how to get the
:05:37. > :05:39.most out of this opportunity. Summit is a binary choice? The Prime
:05:40. > :05:44.Minister is right when she says it's not a binary choice. Both can't be
:05:45. > :05:52.right. We can leave the customs union, get their benefits, and have
:05:53. > :05:57.a free trade agreement with zero tariffs with the EU. So it is a
:05:58. > :06:00.binary choice an either be stale really. Yellow like I am saying the
:06:01. > :06:07.Prime Minister is right when she says it is not a binary choice. -- I
:06:08. > :06:15.am saying the Prime Minister is right. We need clarity. Youth had
:06:16. > :06:20.said -- you have said it is a binary choice. We need to leave the
:06:21. > :06:23.constraints of the customs union. It pushes up prices. The EU is not
:06:24. > :06:27.securing the right trade deals, and if we want to make the most of it,
:06:28. > :06:32.we need to get out there and get some deals going. Do you accept that
:06:33. > :06:37.if we remain in the customs union, we cannot do our own free-trade
:06:38. > :06:53.deals? Yellow right 100%. That is why we have to leave. -- 100%. Do
:06:54. > :06:57.you accept that if we leave the customs union but stay with
:06:58. > :07:00.substantial access, I don't say membership, but substantial access
:07:01. > :07:04.to the single market, that goods going from this country to the
:07:05. > :07:09.single market because we're no longer in the union will be subject
:07:10. > :07:17.to complicated rules of origin regulations, which could cost
:07:18. > :07:21.business ?13 billion a year? I would like to see a free-trade agreement
:07:22. > :07:25.between the UK and the EU. Look at the Canadian deal. I give you that,
:07:26. > :07:30.but if we're not in the customs union, things that we bring in on
:07:31. > :07:35.our own tariffs once we've left we can't just export again willy-nilly
:07:36. > :07:38.to the EU. They will demand to see rules of origin. Norway has to do
:07:39. > :07:44.that at the moment and it is highly complicated expensive. I think if we
:07:45. > :07:48.agree a particular arrangement as part of this agreement with the EU,
:07:49. > :07:54.we can reach an agreement on that which sets a lower standard, which
:07:55. > :07:58.sets a different level of tariffs, which protects some of our
:07:59. > :08:03.industries. Let's suppose we have pretty much free trade with the EU
:08:04. > :08:07.but we are out of the customs union, and let's suppose that the European
:08:08. > :08:16.Union has a 20% tariff on Japanese whisky and we decide to have a %
:08:17. > :08:20.tariff - what then happens to the whisky that comes into Britain and
:08:21. > :08:25.goes on to the EU? The EU will not let that in. That will be part of
:08:26. > :08:32.the negotiation. I think there is a huge benefit for external operators.
:08:33. > :08:36.Every bottle of Japanese whisky they will have to work out the rules
:08:37. > :08:42.of origin. There have been studies that show there is a potential for
:08:43. > :08:47.50% increase in global product if we leave. We're losing the benefits of
:08:48. > :08:48.free trade. I understand, I am asking for your particular view
:08:49. > :08:57.Thank you for that. Is it not surprising Mr Hannan could
:08:58. > :09:02.not bring himself to say we would leave the customs union? It is
:09:03. > :09:07.messy. The reason there is this new group of Tory MPs signing up to a
:09:08. > :09:12.campaign to make sure we get a genuine Brexit is because there is
:09:13. > :09:18.this vacuum. It is being filled with all sorts of briefing from the other
:09:19. > :09:22.side. There is a real risk in the minds of Brexit supporting MPs that
:09:23. > :09:25.the remaining side are going to try to hijack the process, not only
:09:26. > :09:31.through the Supreme Court action, which I think most Brexit MPs seem
:09:32. > :09:37.to accept the appeal will fail, but further down the line, through
:09:38. > :09:40.amendments to the great repeal bill. This is a pressure group to try to
:09:41. > :09:44.hold the Prime Minister to account. There is plenty of pressure on the
:09:45. > :09:49.Prime Minister effectively to stay in the single market and the customs
:09:50. > :09:55.union, and if you do both of these things, de facto, you have stayed in
:09:56. > :09:58.the EU. She is in a difficult position because there is no good
:09:59. > :10:05.faith assumption about what Theresa May wants because she was a
:10:06. > :10:08.Remainer. There is all this talk about a transitional arrangement,
:10:09. > :10:14.but she can't sell that as someone who voted to remain. The way Isabel
:10:15. > :10:18.has characterised it is interesting. There is a betrayal narrative.
:10:19. > :10:22.Everyone is looking to say that she has betrayed the true Brexit. Since
:10:23. > :10:28.the Government cannot give a clear indication of what it once in terms
:10:29. > :10:32.of the customs union, which sets external tariffs, or the single
:10:33. > :10:35.market, which is the free movement of people, capital, goods and
:10:36. > :10:43.services, others are filling this vacuum. Right. The reasons they
:10:44. > :10:46.can't do this are, first, they don't know if they can get it or not. We
:10:47. > :10:53.saw this with the renegotiation the last Prime Minister. What are they
:10:54. > :11:03.hoping to get? The world on a stick, to get cake and eat it. You go into
:11:04. > :11:07.a negotiation saying, let's see what we can get in total. Are they going
:11:08. > :11:11.to ask the membership of the single market? Yellow I think they will ask
:11:12. > :11:24.for a free trade agreement involving everything. You can demand what you
:11:25. > :11:30.want. The question is, do they stand a cat's chance in hell of getting
:11:31. > :11:35.it? They don't know. Welcome back. We will be back, believe me. It is
:11:36. > :11:41.150 day since we found out the UK had voted to leave the EU, but as we
:11:42. > :11:45.have heard, remain and leave campaigners continue to battle about
:11:46. > :11:53.what type of relationship we should have with the EU after exit.
:11:54. > :11:54.Leave campaigners say that leaving the EU
:11:55. > :11:55.also means quitting the
:11:56. > :11:58.Single Market, the internal European trading bloc that includes free
:11:59. > :12:00.movement of goods, services, capital and people.
:12:01. > :12:01.They point to evidence that leading Leave supporting
:12:02. > :12:04.politicians ruled out staying in the Single Market during
:12:05. > :12:06.Andrea Leadsom, for example, said it would almost
:12:07. > :12:16.certainly be the case that the UK would come out of the Single Market.
:12:17. > :12:20.When asked for a yes or no on whether the UK should stay
:12:21. > :12:23."No, we should be outside the Single Market."
:12:24. > :12:26.And Boris Johnson agreed with his erstwhile ally, saying, "Michael
:12:27. > :12:28.Gove was absolutely right to say the UK
:12:29. > :12:39.They've released a video of clips of Leave campaigners speaking before
:12:40. > :12:42.the referendum apparently saying that the UK should stay in the
:12:43. > :12:45.Nigel Farage, for example, once said that on leaving
:12:46. > :12:48.the EU we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area
:12:49. > :12:50.Owen Paterson, the former Environment Secretary,
:12:51. > :12:57.once made the startling statement that only a madman would actually
:12:58. > :13:02.And Matthew Elliott, the Vote Leave chief, said
:13:03. > :13:05.that the Norwegian option would be initially attractive for some
:13:06. > :13:09.But do these quotes create an accurate picture of what
:13:10. > :13:16.To cast some light on where these quotes came from we're
:13:17. > :13:18.joined by James McGrory, director of Open Britain
:13:19. > :13:32.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. . Your video has statements from leave
:13:33. > :13:35.campaigners hinting they want to stay in the single market. How many
:13:36. > :13:43.were made during the referendum campaign? I don't know. Not one was
:13:44. > :13:48.made during the referendum campaign. Indeed, only two of the 12
:13:49. > :13:51.statements were recorded after Royal assent had been given to the
:13:52. > :13:56.referendum. Only one was made this year before the referendum.
:13:57. > :13:59.Throughout the campaign am a leave campaigners lauded the Norwegian
:14:00. > :14:05.model. Norway are in the single market but not in the EU. They went
:14:06. > :14:08.out of their way not to be pinned down on a specific trading
:14:09. > :14:12.arrangement they want to see in the future with Europe, when the
:14:13. > :14:17.Treasury model the different models it was the EEA or a free-trade
:14:18. > :14:21.agreement. I understand. Does it not undermine your case that none of the
:14:22. > :14:25.12 statements on your video were made during the campaign itself
:14:26. > :14:30.when people were giving really serious thought to such matters The
:14:31. > :14:33.Leave campaign weren't giving serious thought to such matters
:14:34. > :14:39.They did not set out the future trading model they wanted to see.
:14:40. > :14:43.But you cannot produce a single video with somebody saying we should
:14:44. > :14:48.stay in the single market during the campaign. Daniel Hanna had talked
:14:49. > :14:53.about the Norwegian model as a future option. One comment from
:14:54. > :14:57.Nigel Farage dates back to 2009 when we didn't even know if we would
:14:58. > :15:01.have a referendum or not. Does it not stretch credibility to go back
:15:02. > :15:05.to the time when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister? The overall point
:15:06. > :15:11.stands. It is not supposed to be an exhaustive list of the options.
:15:12. > :15:16.Daniel Hannan, described as the intellectual godfather of the Leave
:15:17. > :15:19.movement is saying that no one is talking about threatening our place
:15:20. > :15:23.in the signal market. I think it's legitimate to point out the Leave
:15:24. > :15:27.campaign never came forward with a credible argument. We have
:15:28. > :15:30.highlighted some of the quotes you picked out from leave campaigners
:15:31. > :15:37.over time. Do you think you have fully encapsulated their arguments
:15:38. > :15:42.accurately? I don't think in a 2nd video you can talk about the full
:15:43. > :15:47.thing. -- a 90-2nd video. Some of them want to seek a free-trade
:15:48. > :15:55.agreement, some to default on to World Trade Organisation tariffs.
:15:56. > :15:57.There is a range of opinion in the Leave campaign. Let's listen to the
:15:58. > :15:58.clip you used on Owen Paterson first.
:15:59. > :16:05.Only a madman would actually leave the market.
:16:06. > :16:10.Only a madman would actually leave the market.
:16:11. > :16:11.It's not the EU which is
:16:12. > :16:14.a political organisation delivering the prosperity and buying our goods.
:16:15. > :16:18.It's the market, it's the members of the market and we'll carry on
:16:19. > :16:20.I mean, are we really suggesting that the
:16:21. > :16:23.economy in the world is not going to come to come
:16:24. > :16:25.to a satisfactory trading arrangement with the EU?
:16:26. > :16:27.Are we going to be like Sudan and North
:16:28. > :16:31.It is ludicrous this idea that we are going to leap off a
:16:32. > :16:45.What he said when he said only a madman would leave Europe, was that
:16:46. > :16:49.we would continue to trade, we would continue to have access. Any country
:16:50. > :16:52.in the world can have access. What the Leave campaign suggested is our
:16:53. > :16:56.trade would continue uninterrupted, they are still at it today, David
:16:57. > :17:00.Davis used the phrase, uninterrupted, from the dispatch box
:17:01. > :17:04.recently. You misrepresented him by saying only a madman would leave the
:17:05. > :17:08.Single Market and stopped it there, because he goes onto say that of
:17:09. > :17:09.course we want Leave in the sense of continuing to have access. I don't
:17:10. > :17:28.think he was about axis, he is talking
:17:29. > :17:31.about membership. He doesn't use the word membership at all. He talks
:17:32. > :17:33.about we are going to carry on trading with them, we will not leap
:17:34. > :17:36.off, we will carry on trading. Anybody can trade with the EU, it's
:17:37. > :17:38.the terms on which you trade that is important and leave campaigners and
:17:39. > :17:41.Patterson is an example of this saying we can trade as we do now,
:17:42. > :17:43.the government saying we can trade without bureaucratic impediments and
:17:44. > :17:46.tariff free. The viewers will make up their mind. Let's listen to the
:17:47. > :17:47.views of Matthew Elliott, the Chief Executive of Vote Leave.
:17:48. > :17:50.When it comes to the Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that
:17:51. > :17:52.it might be initially attractive for some business people.
:17:53. > :17:56.So you then cut him off there but this is what he went on to say in
:17:57. > :18:00.the same clip, let's listen to that. When it comes to the Norwegian
:18:01. > :18:03.option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initially attractive
:18:04. > :18:05.for some business people. But then again for voters
:18:06. > :18:08.who are increasingly concerned about migration in the EU,
:18:09. > :18:11.they will be very concerned that it allows free movement
:18:12. > :18:23.of people to continue. Again, you have misrepresented him.
:18:24. > :18:26.He said the Norwegian model has attractions but there are real
:18:27. > :18:30.problems if it involves free movement of people, which it does.
:18:31. > :18:33.But you cut that bit out. I challenge anyone to represent them
:18:34. > :18:37.accurately because they took such a range of opinions. I don't know what
:18:38. > :18:41.we are supposed to do. You are misrepresenting them. He is saying
:18:42. > :18:45.the Norwegian option is attractive to business, I understand why. It
:18:46. > :18:52.might not be attractive for voters. But then he said if it allowed free
:18:53. > :18:57.movement of people it could be an issue. You took that out. You are
:18:58. > :18:59.saying this is a definitive position. I'm suggesting you are
:19:00. > :19:02.distorting it. This is what you had Mr Farage say.
:19:03. > :19:04.On D+1 we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area
:19:05. > :19:12.This is what he then went on to say in that same clip that you didn t
:19:13. > :19:13.run. There is absolutely
:19:14. > :19:15.nothing to fear in terms of trade from leaving
:19:16. > :19:16.the on D+1 we'll find ourselves part
:19:17. > :19:21.of the European Economic Area and we should use our
:19:22. > :19:29.membership of the EEA as a holding position from which
:19:30. > :19:33.we can negotiate as the European Union's biggest export
:19:34. > :19:35.market in the world, as good a deal, my goodness me,
:19:36. > :19:45.if Switzerland can have one we So there again, he says not that we
:19:46. > :19:50.should stay in the Single Market as a member, but that we stay in the EA
:19:51. > :20:00.as a transition until we negotiate something. -- EEA. This whole clip
:20:01. > :20:04.is online, how would you get away with this distortion? It is not a
:20:05. > :20:07.distortion, the whole point is to point out they do not have a
:20:08. > :20:10.definitive position, he is arguing for membership of the Single Market,
:20:11. > :20:15.for a transitional period. For the transition. How long does that go
:20:16. > :20:18.on, what does he want to then achieve? Not very quickly but he
:20:19. > :20:22.does not say we should stay members of the Single Market and you didn't
:20:23. > :20:25.let people see what he went on to say, you gave the impression he
:20:26. > :20:29.wanted to stay in the one it. It would not be a video then, it would
:20:30. > :20:33.be a seven-week long lecture. They took so many positions, and the idea
:20:34. > :20:36.now that they were clear with people that we should definitely leave the
:20:37. > :20:40.Single Market I think is fictitious. You are trying to make out they all
:20:41. > :20:45.had one position which was to remain members of the one it. You see the
:20:46. > :20:49.full clips that is not what they are saying. We are trying to point out
:20:50. > :20:52.there is no mandate to leave the Single Market. The idea the Leave
:20:53. > :20:56.campaign spoke with unanimity and clarity of purpose and throughout
:20:57. > :21:00.the whole campaign said we will definitely leave the Single Market
:21:01. > :21:04.is not true. That is the whole point of the media. We showed in the
:21:05. > :21:08.montage in the video just before we came on, we said that then Prime
:21:09. > :21:11.Minister, the then Chancellor, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, being
:21:12. > :21:15.categorical that if you vote to leave the EU, you vote to leave
:21:16. > :21:18.membership of the Single Market What bit of that didn't you
:21:19. > :21:21.understand? Under duress they occasionally said they wanted to
:21:22. > :21:27.leave. Some of them wanted to leave the Single Market. All of the other
:21:28. > :21:32.promises they made, whether ?35 million for the NHS, whether a VAT
:21:33. > :21:35.cut on fuel, points-based system. You do not have a single quote of
:21:36. > :21:39.any of these members saying they want to be a member. Daniel Hannan
:21:40. > :21:44.has said consistently that Norway are a part of the Single Market You
:21:45. > :21:46.spend the referendum campaign criticising for Rim misrepresenting
:21:47. > :21:49.and misrepresenting and lying and many thought they did. Having seen
:21:50. > :21:53.this many will conclude that you are the biggest liars. I think it is
:21:54. > :21:56.perfectly reasonable to point out that the Leave campaign did not have
:21:57. > :22:00.a clear position on our future trading relationship with Europe.
:22:01. > :22:03.That is all this video does. It doesn't say we definitely have to
:22:04. > :22:08.stay in the Single Market, it just says they do have a mandate to drag
:22:09. > :22:10.us out of our biggest trading partner.
:22:11. > :22:12.Now people have seen the full quotes in context our viewers will make up
:22:13. > :22:14.their mind. Thank you. Now - voting closes next week
:22:15. > :22:17.in the the Ukip leadership contest. The second Ukip leadership contest
:22:18. > :22:19.this year after the party's first female leader - Diane James -
:22:20. > :22:22.stood down from the role Since then the party's lurched from
:22:23. > :22:25.farce to fiasco. It's a world gripped by uncertainty,
:22:26. > :22:41.split into factions. Yes, 2, because they're
:22:42. > :22:51.having their second Watch as the alpha male,
:22:52. > :22:58.the Ukip leader at Nigel Watch as the alpha male,
:22:59. > :23:00.the Ukip leader Nigel Farage, hands power to the new alpha
:23:01. > :23:03.female Diane James. The European Parliament
:23:04. > :23:17.in Strasbourg, October. Another leading light and possible
:23:18. > :23:20.future leader, the MEP Steven Wolfe,
:23:21. > :23:22.has been laid low after an alleged tussle with a colleague
:23:23. > :23:25.during a meeting. A few days later he is
:23:26. > :23:27.out of hospital and I will be withdrawing my
:23:28. > :23:31.application to become I'm actually withdrawing
:23:32. > :23:34.myself from Ukip. You're resigning from the party
:23:35. > :23:41.I'm resigning with immediate effect. And this week a leaked document
:23:42. > :23:44.suggested the party improperly spent EU funds on political
:23:45. > :23:49.campaigning in the UK. Another headache for whoever takes
:23:50. > :23:55.over the leadership of the pack One contender is Suzanne Evans,
:23:56. > :23:58.a former Tory councillor and was briefly suspended for
:23:59. > :24:07.disloyalty. Also standing, Paul Nuttall,
:24:08. > :24:10.an MEP from Liverpool who has been by Farage's side
:24:11. > :24:16.as his deputy for six years. There's another big beast
:24:17. > :24:18.in the Ukip leadership contest, and I'm told
:24:19. > :24:21.that today he can be spotted He's John Rees-Evans,
:24:22. > :24:26.a businessman and adventurer who is offering members the chance
:24:27. > :24:29.to propose policies via a website We've got really dedicated
:24:30. > :24:43.passionate supporters who feel like they're not really
:24:44. > :24:46.being listened to and are not even Typically what happens
:24:47. > :24:49.is they just basically sit there until six months before
:24:50. > :24:51.a General Election when they are contacted and asked to go out
:24:52. > :24:54.and leaflet and canvas. Even at branch level people feel
:24:55. > :24:56.there is not an adequate flow of communication
:24:57. > :24:58.up-and-down the party. Are you not going to take part in
:24:59. > :25:07.any hustings? He left a hustings saying
:25:08. > :25:10.the contest was an establishment coronation and has
:25:11. > :25:13.made colourful comments in the past. He's in favour of the death penalty
:25:14. > :25:15.for crimes like paedophilia. I think there is a clear
:25:16. > :25:17.will amongst the offences should be dealt with
:25:18. > :25:21.decisively. But again, on an issue like that,
:25:22. > :25:24.that is something that Our members are not
:25:25. > :25:29.going to agree with me on everything and I don't believe that
:25:30. > :25:31.I would have any authority to have the say and determine
:25:32. > :25:33.the future What method would you use
:25:34. > :25:37.for the death penalty? Again, that is something that could
:25:38. > :25:39.be determined by suggestions made So you'd have like an online
:25:40. > :25:44.poll about whether you use the electric chair,
:25:45. > :25:50.or lethal injection? For example, arguments would be made
:25:51. > :25:52.in favour of This is such a small aspect
:25:53. > :25:56.of what I'm standing for. Essentially, in mainstream media
:25:57. > :25:58.they try to by focusing on pretty irrelevant
:25:59. > :26:04.details. This is one vote that
:26:05. > :26:06.the membership would have. What I'm actually trying to do
:26:07. > :26:10.in this party is to revolutionise the democratic
:26:11. > :26:13.process in the UK, and that's really what your viewers should
:26:14. > :26:17.be concentrating on. With him at the helm he reckons Ukip
:26:18. > :26:19.would win at Meanwhile, in New York,
:26:20. > :26:27.on a visit to Trump Tower, Nigel Farage admired the plumage
:26:28. > :26:36.of the President-elect, a man he has described as
:26:37. > :26:38.a silverback gorilla, a friendship that's been condemned by some
:26:39. > :26:41.in this leadership contest. There are also elections
:26:42. > :26:44.to the party's National Executive Committee, a body
:26:45. > :26:46.that's been roundly criticised by And we're joined now by two
:26:47. > :27:01.of the candidates in the Ukip leadership election -
:27:02. > :27:11.Suzanne Evans and Paul Nuttall. We are going to kick off by giving
:27:12. > :27:14.each of them 30 seconds to lay out their case as to why they would be
:27:15. > :27:17.the less leader starting with Suzanne Evans.
:27:18. > :27:20.Ukip is at its best when it is scaring the political establishment,
:27:21. > :27:24.forcing it to address those problems it would rather ignore. But it
:27:25. > :27:28.really change people's lives for the better and fast, we need to win
:27:29. > :27:32.seats and elections right across the country. To win at the ballot box we
:27:33. > :27:52.need to attract more women, more ethnic
:27:53. > :27:54.minorities, and more of those Labour voters who no longer recognise their
:27:55. > :27:57.party. I know how to do that. Ukip under my
:27:58. > :27:59.leadership will be the same page about it, common-sense, radical
:28:00. > :28:02.party it has always been, just even more successful. Thank you, Suzanne
:28:03. > :28:04.Evans, Paul Nuttall. I'm standing on a platform of unity and experience.
:28:05. > :28:07.I believe the party must come together if it is to survive and
:28:08. > :28:09.prosper. I believe I'm the best candidate to ensure that happens, I
:28:10. > :28:12.am not part of any faction in the party, and beyond that I have done
:28:13. > :28:14.every single job within the party, whether that is as head of policy,
:28:15. > :28:17.whether that is Party Chairman, deputy leader for Nigel for the past
:28:18. > :28:19.six years. I believe Ukip has great opportunities in Labour
:28:20. > :28:23.constituencies where we can move in and become the Patriot invoice of
:28:24. > :28:26.working people, and beyond that we have to ensure the government's feet
:28:27. > :28:33.are held to the fire on Brexit and we get real Brexit, not a
:28:34. > :28:37.mealy-mouthed version. How will you get a grip on this? People have to
:28:38. > :28:41.realise that the cause is bigger than any personality, we have to get
:28:42. > :28:44.together in a room and sort out not just a spokespeople role but roles
:28:45. > :28:49.within the organisation, Party Chairman, party secretary, and
:28:50. > :28:53.whatnot. But as I say, Ukip must unite, we are on 13% in the opinion
:28:54. > :28:58.polls, the future is bright, there are open goals but Ukip must be on
:28:59. > :29:01.the pitch to score them. He says he's the only one that can get a
:29:02. > :29:05.grip on this party. I disagree, I have a huge amount of experience in
:29:06. > :29:08.the party as well and also a background that I think means I can
:29:09. > :29:18.help bring people together. I have always said nothing breeds unity
:29:19. > :29:21.faster than success and under my leadership we will be successful.
:29:22. > :29:23.There is concern about the future of our National Executive Committee
:29:24. > :29:26.going forward. Mr Farage called it the lowest grade of people I have
:29:27. > :29:29.ever met, do you agree? I think he must have been having a bad day I
:29:30. > :29:32.think we need to make it more accountable to the membership, more
:29:33. > :29:37.open, more democratic. What would you do with the National Executive
:29:38. > :29:41.Committee? I have been calling for the National Executive Committee to
:29:42. > :29:43.be elected reasonably since 201 giving the members better
:29:44. > :29:48.communication lines and make it far more transparent. Would you have a
:29:49. > :29:52.clear out of the office? I wouldn't, I think the chairman of the party,
:29:53. > :29:56.Paul Upton, the interim chairman, is doing a good job and the only person
:29:57. > :29:59.who has come out of the summer with his reputation enhanced. Let me show
:30:00. > :30:06.you a picture we have all seen of your current leader, Mr Farage, with
:30:07. > :30:09.President-elect Donald Trump. Paul Nuttall, you criticise Mr Farage's
:30:10. > :30:14.decision to appear at rallies during the American election and called Mr
:30:15. > :30:19.Trump appalling. Do you stick by that? I wouldn't have voted for him.
:30:20. > :30:22.I made it clear. Do you still think he's appalling now that he is
:30:23. > :30:28.President-elect? Some of the things he said were appalling during the
:30:29. > :30:31.campaign that he said. But he would be good for Britain, trade,
:30:32. > :30:34.pro-Brexit and he is an Anglo file and the first thing he did was put
:30:35. > :30:40.the bust of Winston Churchill back in the Oval Office. You, Suzanne
:30:41. > :30:44.Evans, called Mr Trump one of the weakest candidates the US has had. I
:30:45. > :30:48.said the same about Hillary Clinton. They cannot both be the weakest The
:30:49. > :30:52.better candidate on either side would have beaten the other, that is
:30:53. > :30:57.quite clear. Do you stand by that, or are you glad that your leader Mr
:30:58. > :31:02.Farage has strong ties to him? I am, why wouldn't I be? For Ukip to have
:31:03. > :31:06.that direct connection, it can be only good for a party. Were you not
:31:07. > :31:09.out of step and Mr Farage is in step because it looks like your vote is
:31:10. > :31:15.according to polling I have seemed like Mr Trump and his policies? Let
:31:16. > :31:18.me finish. If I am the leader of Ukip I will not be involving myself
:31:19. > :31:22.in foreign elections, I will because in trading here in this country
:31:23. > :31:23.ensuring we get Ukip people elected to council chambers and get seats in
:31:24. > :31:34.2020. The other thing your leader has in
:31:35. > :31:40.common with Mr Trump is that he rather admires Vladimir Putin. Do
:31:41. > :31:47.you? I don't. If you look at Putin's record, he has invaded Ukraine and
:31:48. > :31:51.Georgia. I am absolutely not a fan. I think that Vladimir Putin is
:31:52. > :31:56.pretty much a nasty man, but beyond that, I believe that in the Middle
:31:57. > :32:03.East, he is generally getting it right in many areas. We need to
:32:04. > :32:07.bring the conflict... Bombing civilians? We need to bring the
:32:08. > :32:11.conflict to an end as fast as possible. The British and American
:32:12. > :32:18.line before Donald Trump is to support rebels, including one is
:32:19. > :32:22.affiliated to Al-Qaeda, to the Taliban. We need to clear these
:32:23. > :32:30.people out and ensure that Syria becomes stable. This controversial
:32:31. > :32:33.breaking point poster from during the referendum campaign. Mr Farage
:32:34. > :32:38.unveiled it, there he is standing in front of it. You can bend it - do
:32:39. > :32:42.you still? Yes, I think it was the wrong poster at the wrong time. I
:32:43. > :32:47.was involved with the vote Leave campaign as well as Ukip's campaign,
:32:48. > :32:50.and I felt strongly that those concerned about immigration were
:32:51. > :32:54.already going to vote to leave because it was a fundamental truth
:32:55. > :32:56.that unless we left the European Union we couldn't control
:32:57. > :33:05.immigration. I thought it was about approaching those soft wavering
:33:06. > :33:09.voters who weren't sure. I don't think I said it was racist, but it
:33:10. > :33:13.was about sovereignty and trade and so forth. That was where we needed
:33:14. > :33:18.to go. I was concerned it might put off some of those wavering voters.
:33:19. > :33:24.People may well say, it was part of the winning campaign. It was Ukip
:33:25. > :33:31.shock and all, which is what you stand for and what makes you
:33:32. > :33:34.different. I said I would know how that I said I would not have gone
:33:35. > :33:37.for that person and I thought it was wrong to do it just a week out from
:33:38. > :33:44.the referendum. However, I believe it released legitimate concerns
:33:45. > :33:52.with a deluge of people making their way from the Middle East and Africa
:33:53. > :33:55.into the European continent. Where is the low hanging fruit for you,
:33:56. > :34:00.particularly in England? Is it Labour or Conservative voters? I
:34:01. > :34:06.want to hang onto the Conservative voters we have got but I think the
:34:07. > :34:10.low hanging fruit is Labour. Jeremy Corbyn won't sing the national
:34:11. > :34:14.anthem, Emily Thornbury despises the English flag. Diane Abbott thinks
:34:15. > :34:18.anyone talking about immigration is racist. Not to mention John
:34:19. > :34:22.McDonnell's feelings about the IRA. Labour has ceased to be a party for
:34:23. > :34:27.working people and I think Ukip is absolutely going to be that party.
:34:28. > :34:33.It is clear, I absolutely concur with everything Suzanne has said. I
:34:34. > :34:36.first voiced this back in 2008 that I believe Ukip has a fantastic
:34:37. > :34:40.opportunity in working-class communities, and everyone laughed at
:34:41. > :34:43.me. It is clear now that we resonate with working people, and you have
:34:44. > :34:50.seen that in the Brexit result. Would you bring back the death
:34:51. > :34:54.penalty? It wouldn't be Ukip policy. Absolutely not. Would you give more
:34:55. > :34:58.money to the NHS and how would your fanatic? You like it is important to
:34:59. > :35:07.fund it adequately, and it hasn t been to date. We promised in our
:35:08. > :35:12.manifesto that we would give more money. Where does the money come
:35:13. > :35:17.from? It is about tackling health tourism. I think the NHS is being
:35:18. > :35:22.taken for a ride at the moment. That may be right, but where does the
:35:23. > :35:26.money come from? It is about scaling back management in the NHS, because
:35:27. > :35:31.that has burgeoned beyond control. They are spending far more money on
:35:32. > :35:36.management. Where would you save money? We need to look at HS two,
:35:37. > :35:41.foreign aid. Now we have Brexit and we will be saving on the membership
:35:42. > :35:44.fee. We need to cut back on management, as Suzanne says. It
:35:45. > :35:51.cannot be right that 51% of people who work for the NHS in England are
:35:52. > :35:57.not clinically qualified. The NHS needs money now - where would you
:35:58. > :36:03.get it? From HS two. That is capital spending spread over a long period.
:36:04. > :36:07.Where will you get the money now? OK, another one. We spent ?25
:36:08. > :36:12.million every day on foreign aid to countries who sometimes are richer
:36:13. > :36:16.than ourselves. Through the Barnett formula. You would take money away
:36:17. > :36:32.from Scotland? Yes, I think they get far too much. PG tips or Earl Grey?
:36:33. > :36:40.Colegrave. PG tips. Strictly come dancing or X Factor? Neither.
:36:41. > :36:45.Strictly. I would love to be on it one day. There you go. Thank you
:36:46. > :36:49.It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:36:50. > :36:52.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:36:53. > :36:55.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
:36:56. > :37:05.First, though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:37:06. > :37:09.Not for the first time we are preoccupied this week
:37:10. > :37:15.Zac Goldsmith stood down over Heathrow.
:37:16. > :37:17.He says the by-election he's now caused is about Heathrow.
:37:18. > :37:22.This is also a chance to give a verdict on Brexit.
:37:23. > :37:24.We'll have the Liberal Democrat candidate contesting
:37:25. > :37:27.the Richmond Park and North Kingston by-election here with us
:37:28. > :37:32.Here already are Siobhain McDonagh, Labour MP for Mitcham and Morden,
:37:33. > :37:35.and Tania Mathias, Conservative MP for Twickenham,
:37:36. > :37:37.neighbouring constituency to Richmond Park, of course.
:37:38. > :37:42.And let's start with the news that four Tory councils have pledged
:37:43. > :37:43.to launch judicial review proceedings against
:37:44. > :37:47.the Government unless - within the next fortnight -
:37:48. > :37:50.it withdraws that decision to build a third runway.
:37:51. > :37:56.This week London's Mayor also indicated backing of sorts.
:37:57. > :37:58.I'm now signalling my support for a potential
:37:59. > :38:00.legal challenge of the
:38:01. > :38:04.Government decision to build a third runway at Heathrow.
:38:05. > :38:06.I promised I wouldn't just stand by and see
:38:07. > :38:09.hundreds of thousands suffer from the additional noise and air
:38:10. > :38:13.pollution, and I'm ready to help ensure that this misery isn't
:38:14. > :38:18.Siobhain, we're not quite clear from what he's been saying so far
:38:19. > :38:21.about how much money he's putting into any
:38:22. > :38:23.kind of legal challenge, but should he be putting
:38:24. > :38:27.You're someone who now favours this decision to go ahead, are you?
:38:28. > :38:28.I fully support Heathrow, and I think
:38:29. > :38:31.Sadiq is a fabulous mayor but I think he's wrong about this.
:38:32. > :38:34.I think it's really important for London,
:38:35. > :38:37.particularly in the face of Brexit, that we have easy access by
:38:38. > :38:42.aeroplane into London and that choice has got to be Heathrow.
:38:43. > :38:48.And I would lay down a challenge also I
:38:49. > :38:51.believe there's probably more people in Zac's constituency and in
:38:52. > :38:54.Twickenham, I would argue, that support a third runway for the jobs
:38:55. > :38:57.and the possibility of a good livelihood.
:38:58. > :39:00.I will let Tania come back on that in a second.
:39:01. > :39:07.It was not long ago that Sadiq Khan, of course,
:39:08. > :39:09.supported Labour Party policy and agreed that Heathrow should be
:39:10. > :39:13.Should any kind of sense of public money, should he continue
:39:14. > :39:16.Well, I think it's important for the London mayor
:39:17. > :39:18.to take a position, and
:39:19. > :39:20.I'm sure he has his reasons for believing what he does.
:39:21. > :39:22.And I don't doubt his sincerity at all.
:39:23. > :39:24.But I think the future of London, in my
:39:25. > :39:27.opinion, is with a third runway at Heathrow.
:39:28. > :39:28.I would actually say, I
:39:29. > :39:32.would put another one at Gatwick as well.
:39:33. > :39:34.Tania Mathias is barely suppressing the smile on your face.
:39:35. > :39:36.Thank you for letting me come in there.
:39:37. > :39:40.Sadiq Khan in his mayoral campaign was very clear that he was
:39:41. > :39:47.As soon as he was elected mayor he sent a
:39:48. > :39:49.letter that we asked him as MPs who were concerned,
:39:50. > :39:52.London MPs who were concerned, will you continue to be
:39:53. > :39:56.He wrote that letter immediately, and I'm
:39:57. > :40:10.Remember the nitrogen dioxide levels were breached.
:40:11. > :40:12.The annual levels were breached on the
:40:13. > :40:16.So for the sake of all Londoners, we are talking about
:40:17. > :40:17.Greater London, airport expansion is needed
:40:18. > :40:19.but should not be at Heathrow for environmental reasons.
:40:20. > :40:21.Just very briefly, what about that contention
:40:22. > :40:23.Siobhain says that actually if you took
:40:24. > :40:24.everybody in those seats in
:40:25. > :40:27.Richmond Park actually we would have a majority that might say now,
:40:28. > :40:29.let's go ahead with this, we need it?
:40:30. > :40:31.Under a Conservative council when I was councillor
:40:32. > :40:34.in Richmond Borough we did a referendum and we got 80%
:40:35. > :40:39.It was over 100,000, so it's actually one
:40:40. > :40:41.of the most extensive surveys that we've done.
:40:42. > :40:42.Everyone imagines it is
:40:43. > :40:45.slightly self-selecting, that the people who feel strongly want to
:40:46. > :40:55.Every single survey we've done there would be
:40:56. > :40:58.20%, but when we talk about the health of Greater London.
:40:59. > :41:02.Let's move on because we can cover this after we've done...
:41:03. > :41:05.On that point, it's not the planes that are causing the major
:41:06. > :41:08.pollution, it's the cars on the way to the airport that cause the
:41:09. > :41:12.Some of London's greatest pollution is on the Edgeware Road,
:41:13. > :41:13.on Green Lanes where poorer people frequently die.
:41:14. > :41:14.Airport expansion in
:41:15. > :41:17.Heathrow, 800 million would be spent on car parks.
:41:18. > :41:22.As I said, we are preoccupied with planes and airports
:41:23. > :41:26.Let's get on to that by-election in south-west London.
:41:27. > :41:29.It's a contest where the Tories and Ukip are not putting up
:41:30. > :41:31.a candidate, in order to help the chances of the independent Zac
:41:32. > :41:35.And the Greens decided not to stand to strengthen
:41:36. > :41:37.the anti-Goldsmith cause, by trying to avoid splitting
:41:38. > :41:42.The Liberal Democrats are certainly pumping effort and resources
:41:43. > :41:45.Could they regain a seat lost in 2010?
:41:46. > :41:51.The very same day that the government
:41:52. > :41:52.announced they wanted to
:41:53. > :41:55.push ahead with the third runway at Heathrow last month, the
:41:56. > :41:59.Conservative MP for Richmond Park, Zac Goldsmith, resigned his seat in
:42:00. > :42:05.protest forcing a by-election which he is contesting as an independent.
:42:06. > :42:07.Now, Zac Goldsmith says that he wants this
:42:08. > :42:08.to be a referendum on
:42:09. > :42:14.But the difficulty is that what s on the ballot paper not a
:42:15. > :42:17.yes/no question about a third runway but a list of candidates and
:42:18. > :42:20.all his main opponents not only say they're against airport expansion
:42:21. > :42:23.here but they are also trying to make this vote about much more
:42:24. > :42:32.This week saw the first and so far only debate between
:42:33. > :42:35.the candidates organised by the anti-Heathrow group Hacan.
:42:36. > :42:38.This is our chance as a community to send an
:42:39. > :42:41.undiluted and clear and forceful message to government and to
:42:42. > :42:46.Heathrow, no ifs, no buts, no third runway.
:42:47. > :42:50.On the flyer it said there was one topic for
:42:51. > :43:08.Europe the happier the Brexit sceptic Lib Dems are going to be.
:43:09. > :43:15.The party are a lifting their biggest stars in on a daily basis.
:43:16. > :43:20.so I'm getting very used to Richmond Station.
:43:21. > :43:26.But it's also the constituency that could potentially
:43:27. > :43:28.change the direction of British politics and without wanting to
:43:29. > :43:31.oversell this, potentially change how Britain is over the next 50
:43:32. > :43:39.The Lib Dems used to hold the seat until 2010 and until the
:43:40. > :43:42.weekend so they had 1000 activists on the streets campaigning for the
:43:43. > :43:57.I think the problem for Zac is you can't dictate
:43:58. > :44:02.You can't sort of say as he has in his great sort of flurry of
:44:03. > :44:04.melodrama, it's all about me, me, me.
:44:05. > :44:07.It's actually about who represents this
:44:08. > :44:10.And while planes do loom large over the skies
:44:11. > :44:13.of Richmond Park the people we spoke to on the street did seem to be
:44:14. > :44:17.Zac Goldsmith is the Brexit candidate and it's
:44:18. > :44:21.When he ran that campaign against Sadiq Khan, all of the way
:44:22. > :44:23.he kind of went about it, I didn't like
:44:24. > :44:28.He's been reasonably good for the area.
:44:29. > :44:31.But this isn't a normal by-election in at least one regard
:44:32. > :44:33.The Conservatives, Ukip and greens aren't putting up candidates.
:44:34. > :44:35.Other than the Lib Dems the only major
:44:36. > :44:39.And they've chosen the transport journalist Christian Wolmar as their
:44:40. > :44:45.Well, we thought strongly about this and decided that actually
:44:46. > :44:54.Remember that the Lib Dems here were the party that
:44:55. > :44:57.allowed in austerity, they allowed in the bedroom tax
:44:58. > :45:03.they allowed in all sorts of other measures that we absolutely oppose
:45:04. > :45:05.so that would have left voters with a sort of
:45:06. > :45:10.right-wing candidate and a
:45:11. > :45:11.slightly right-of-centre candidate instead of somebody with
:45:12. > :45:17.So, perhaps the big struggle for Zac Goldsmith is that while he is
:45:18. > :45:19.fighting a referendum on Heathrow, on the ground
:45:20. > :45:31.about the whole range of issues from gay marriage, to the
:45:32. > :45:33.bedroom tax, Islamophobia, and of course Brexit.
:45:34. > :45:35.The Lib Dem candidate Sarah Olney is here with us -
:45:36. > :45:39.We asked Zac Goldsmith to take part as well.
:45:40. > :45:42.He couldn't make it but earlier in the week we asked him
:45:43. > :45:49.whether the campaign was going to be just about Heathrow.
:45:50. > :45:52.In most people's eyes it is and that's the response we are getting,
:45:53. > :45:55.People are aware that the only reason this
:45:56. > :45:58.by-election is happening, the only reason, is that I kept my promise
:45:59. > :46:00.and resigned on principle over Heathrow expansion.
:46:01. > :46:02.You said upstairs that you have people of all
:46:03. > :46:05.But the reality is the most high profile
:46:06. > :46:08.people who have come down to support you are Conservatives, people like
:46:09. > :46:09.Theresa Villiers, people like Jacob Rees-Mogg.
:46:10. > :46:12.You are going to have been a man who started this
:46:13. > :46:16.parliament as a Conservative and you're going to go back as the same
:46:17. > :46:17.man basically representing Conservatives and supported by local
:46:18. > :46:21.Well, I haven't had a political transplant, if that's what
:46:22. > :46:27.ago with the same views on issues.
:46:28. > :46:29.What happened is that the local party and local councillors
:46:30. > :46:31.and local association members sent a message
:46:32. > :46:34.to the party saying if you
:46:35. > :46:37.put up a Conservative Party we will continue to back Zac.
:46:38. > :46:39.Logically, that would have meant the entire local
:46:40. > :46:42.party would have had to be expelled had the central office decided to
:46:43. > :46:44.impose somebody and clearly they weren't going to do that.
:46:45. > :46:46.Is there any tangible difference then between
:46:47. > :46:48.Zac Goldsmith the independent MP, and the Zac Goldsmith the
:46:49. > :46:51.In truth I've always been an independent minded MP.
:46:52. > :46:55.If you look at my voting record over the last six years, the party
:46:56. > :46:58.has never been able to take my vote for granted on any issues.
:46:59. > :47:00.So, in a sense, I will continue to be an
:47:01. > :47:02.independent minded MP but without the blue rosette.
:47:03. > :47:04.That means holding government to account, voting in the
:47:05. > :47:07.way that I believe is good for my constituents, aligned with my
:47:08. > :47:11.conscience, good for the country, and if that puts me against my party
:47:12. > :47:14.then I will vote against my party, as I have routinely over the last
:47:15. > :47:17.Final question, the Lib Dems seem to be throwing everything
:47:18. > :47:21.I spoke to Nick Clegg today, I'm talking to Tim
:47:22. > :47:24.Farron tomorrow, they say they have had 1000 activists on the street
:47:25. > :47:27.That has got to have you a bit worried.
:47:28. > :47:29.Most of the people who are campaigning for the
:47:30. > :47:31.Lib Dems are coming from outside of this community.
:47:32. > :47:34.I am yet to see a local campaigner for the Lib Dems.
:47:35. > :47:39.I have no party, no access to the party data, no access
:47:40. > :47:40.to the party machinery or the office.
:47:41. > :47:45.I had to build a campaign from scratch in a matter of hours.
:47:46. > :47:48.So, of course, I'm not going to be able to outcompete them in terms of
:47:49. > :47:54.doorknocking, although we've spoken to many thousands of people ready
:47:55. > :47:56.doorknocking, although we've spoken to many thousands of people already
:47:57. > :48:00.I'm never going to be able to outcompete them in terms
:48:01. > :48:04.They will get ten, 15 times more literature out than we do.
:48:05. > :48:06.But what we have on our side is name recognition.
:48:07. > :48:12.I just wonder about that, if you are honest, is he a popular
:48:13. > :48:16.He's been, he's done good things for the constituency,
:48:17. > :48:19.but as far as name recognition is concerned he is right
:48:20. > :48:22.we are getting a lot of literature out and people are beginning to
:48:23. > :48:26.And what people really feel strongly about is the Brexit issue, they know
:48:27. > :48:30.that the Liberal Democrats are the party that are still standing to
:48:31. > :48:31.remain in the EU and that's what the issue
:48:32. > :48:35.How difficult is it when, as you accept, he
:48:36. > :48:39.is being regarded as a good MP, and let's face it, he extended his
:48:40. > :48:42.majority against the Liberal Democrats by many thousand in 2 15?
:48:43. > :48:45.How difficult is that for you to deal with that
:48:46. > :48:48.when he has to down and given it all upon a matter of principle?
:48:49. > :48:51.Well, we've obviously got, you know, a lot of ground to
:48:52. > :48:54.make up but the evidence so far that we are seeing
:48:55. > :48:57.is we are starting to catch up, so, you know, we have come
:48:58. > :49:00.from the Whitney by-election and if we got the same swing in Richmond
:49:01. > :49:02.Park that we got in Whitney then that would be enough.
:49:03. > :49:06.The responses you are getting on the doorstep?
:49:07. > :49:10.is showing some very positive results.
:49:11. > :49:12.Presumably people are saying it has been a heroically
:49:13. > :49:19.self-sacrificing decision of his to give up his
:49:20. > :49:21.seat on the basis of an issue like Heathrow, are they?
:49:22. > :49:23.Well, not everyone is saying that to be honest.
:49:24. > :49:27.on an anti-Heathrow platform and as
:49:28. > :49:29.Tania mentioned earlier on we also had a referendum in Richmond about
:49:30. > :49:31.whether or not people wanted Heathrow expansion.
:49:32. > :49:33.So he's had mandates before to stand against
:49:34. > :49:36.It's not like he really needs another one.
:49:37. > :49:39.So not everybody is that impressed by his decision to stand down.
:49:40. > :49:42.While the people of Richmond did make clear in
:49:43. > :49:48.the referendum which way they wanted it, and they very much wanted to
:49:49. > :49:52.stay, 70-30 in Europe, they have known Zac Goldsmith's Eurosceptic
:49:53. > :49:55.views for a long time and his parentage, and you can hardly escape
:49:56. > :49:58.that, and yet they voted him in in 2015.
:49:59. > :50:02.We're meeting a lot of people on the doorsteps who didn't
:50:03. > :50:07.know how anti-Europe he was and they are realising now throughout
:50:08. > :50:10.know how anti-Europe he was and they are realising now through our
:50:11. > :50:13.campaign that we are the only party that has really stood and always
:50:14. > :50:14.been the pro-European party and continues
:50:15. > :50:18.government that continues to campaign for us to remain in Europe.
:50:19. > :50:21.That wants to, you know, for us to remain part
:50:22. > :50:22.of the Single Market to
:50:23. > :50:23.save British jobs, to save British businesses.
:50:24. > :50:25.And you would vote against triggering Article 50,
:50:26. > :50:36.You would not start the process if you were elected.
:50:37. > :50:39.On what basis do you think voters are going to say, or
:50:40. > :50:42.vote for you, when you would be willing to defy the will of the
:50:43. > :50:44.Well, firstly, as you've already said, 70%
:50:45. > :50:46.of voters in this constituency were very
:50:47. > :50:48.keen for us to remain in the
:50:49. > :50:49.European Union, but also because that's
:50:50. > :50:55.in this by-election I would be returned to Parliament if I won
:50:56. > :50:59.with a very clear mandate as to how my constituents that I would be
:51:00. > :51:05.Do you accept that actually, well you'll accept from your own post
:51:06. > :51:07.bag, presumably, there are very strong
:51:08. > :51:09.We know what you feel about Heathrow.
:51:10. > :51:12.But would you say and accept there are very
:51:13. > :51:14.strong feelings about that and you voted to stay in?
:51:15. > :51:16.My constituency, just like Zac's, is full of very
:51:17. > :51:22.Yes, I was very disappointed with the national vote.
:51:23. > :51:25.But like many MPs, and I think all parties
:51:26. > :51:27.in Parliament, we did say that we would accept
:51:28. > :51:33.constituents, we now have to make it work.
:51:34. > :51:42.I have been holding the Government to account in my position
:51:43. > :51:45.as MP, and especially with science, and I've
:51:46. > :51:47.also been very strong on
:51:48. > :51:49.protecting EU workers, EU families, as has Zac.
:51:50. > :51:54.I mean at the end of the day, the Lib
:51:55. > :51:57.Dems are the party that want us to remain in Europe, that are
:51:58. > :52:00.campaigning on that, that are uniting on that,
:52:01. > :52:03.and so the voters in Richmond Park can have no doubt
:52:04. > :52:06.about what I will do if an Article 50 vote comes before parliament
:52:07. > :52:08.But I really think equally they can have
:52:09. > :52:09.no doubt what Zac Goldsmith would do.
:52:10. > :52:12.Siobhain, can I just ask you if
:52:13. > :52:14.your candidate, Christian Wolmar, who is very much against Heathrow,
:52:15. > :52:18.but also do you think there
:52:19. > :52:24.agreed, would have liked it if Labour said, let's not put up a
:52:25. > :52:27.candidate, like the Greens haven't, to give the Liberal Democrats are
:52:28. > :52:29.candidate, like the Greens haven't, to give the Liberal Democrats a
:52:30. > :52:33.I think Labour's got a distinctive voice,
:52:34. > :52:35.and I think we should use it
:52:36. > :52:38.I think Christian is a great and a sincere
:52:39. > :52:41.I think Christian is a great and a sincere candidate.
:52:42. > :52:44.unlike myself, against Heathrow for decades.
:52:45. > :52:47.He has very strong views that he would agree with Sarah that
:52:48. > :52:49.he would vote against the moving of Article 50.
:52:50. > :52:52.You think it's important for him to stay in the race?
:52:53. > :52:54.I'm sure the voters of Richmond are very
:52:55. > :52:56.thoughtful and I would like them to think that
:52:57. > :53:00.their side on the issues of concern to them.
:53:01. > :53:02.Very briefly, Tania, because we have to move on.
:53:03. > :53:03.Your candidate has been clear, you say
:53:04. > :53:06.you have been clear, but I have to say I believe
:53:07. > :53:15.Nor have all of those people. Let's not go in there.
:53:16. > :53:19.We are running out of time. We have got to let Sarah go.
:53:20. > :53:24.You said you haven't and you are saying it is OK.
:53:25. > :53:25.14th of October blog, that's where...
:53:26. > :53:27.But the Article 50 judgment wasn't made
:53:28. > :53:31.So how could it have been a view on whether or not
:53:32. > :53:35.You said let's make it work, bring people together.
:53:36. > :53:40.We'll come back to it, I hope. Thanks very much indeed, Sarah.
:53:41. > :53:44.And you can see a full list of all the candidates standing
:53:45. > :53:46.in the Richmond Park by-election on the BBC website.
:53:47. > :53:49.This week, the interim report into the Croydon tram crash revealed
:53:50. > :53:51.that the tram had been travelling at three times the speed limit
:53:52. > :53:55.It could be some months before we get the final report
:53:56. > :54:00.But it's had reverberations in this one part of south London and beyond.
:54:01. > :54:06.This is a stretch of the Croydon tram link that commuters from south
:54:07. > :54:09.London pass through regularly on their way to work, and it is here
:54:10. > :54:12.that seven people died and 51 were injured in the UK's worst tram
:54:13. > :54:17.Politicians this week have been demanding
:54:18. > :54:31.answers to how this tragedy occurred.
:54:32. > :54:33.Can the Prime Minister assure the House and the families
:54:34. > :54:37.that any recommendations to improve safety on trams in Croydon and
:54:38. > :54:40.across the country made by those investigations will be rapidly
:54:41. > :54:43.It is important to allow the investigations to continue.
:54:44. > :54:46.That they are able to come up with the
:54:47. > :54:48.recommendations in due course, and we will look seriously at those
:54:49. > :54:53.We can never be complacent about safety and security.
:54:54. > :55:02.Three separate investigations are under way.
:55:03. > :55:04.On Wednesday, the Rail Accident Investigations Board published its
:55:05. > :55:15.This rules out any technical causes.
:55:16. > :55:17.Questions are now being raised about the effectiveness of current safety
:55:18. > :55:23.The BBC has learned that a complaint had
:55:24. > :55:26.recently been made about a speeding tram at the same bend as the
:55:27. > :55:32.On 31st October, passenger Shantall Singh
:55:33. > :56:00.Only days before the tragedy, tram link
:56:01. > :56:01.Only days before the tragedy, Tramlink
:56:02. > :56:06.With industrial action over safety issues
:56:07. > :56:09.announced by the RMT this week, these events may lend more
:56:10. > :56:11.credibility transport workers' concerns, ensuring the shocks from
:56:12. > :56:23.the accident will reverberate well beyond Croydon.
:56:24. > :56:28.The route the tram goes three constituency. Unions are already
:56:29. > :56:34.saying there are concerns about safety. I have not heard of them
:56:35. > :56:37.personally, but, you know, your heart has got to go out to the
:56:38. > :56:40.people who died and their families. Going to work at six o'clock in the
:56:41. > :56:45.morning, those people get their money hard, don't they? That tram is
:56:46. > :56:47.so important to so many people across south-west London,
:56:48. > :56:51.particularly in Mitch Inman, to give people a chance to get to work,
:56:52. > :56:55.school, college, it has been an amazing thing. At that time because
:56:56. > :57:00.it is a local form of transport that is why most of the victims were from
:57:01. > :57:06.a concentrated area and that is unusual. It is important in our
:57:07. > :57:12.area, I have worked at Croydon hospital. Yes, you say there but for
:57:13. > :57:16.the grace of God. At least they are saying it is safe right now and I
:57:17. > :57:19.believe them, even though as you say the investigation will take a long
:57:20. > :57:24.time. It is reassuring because the tram link is important in the area.
:57:25. > :57:29.It could take a year or seven months to get the full report.
:57:30. > :57:32.Now for the rest of the political news in 60 seconds.
:57:33. > :57:35.Sadiq Khan has definite appointing Amy Lemay as London's nights
:57:36. > :57:56.Sadiq Khan has defended appointing Amy Lemay as London's night
:57:57. > :57:57.Councillor following claim she has a gratuitously offensive online
:57:58. > :57:59.presence. Amy was appointed because she's
:58:00. > :58:02.the best person for the job. It's really important to have
:58:03. > :58:04.someone with outstanding experience at the front line of London's
:58:05. > :58:07.night-time economy in order to gain An investigation has
:58:08. > :58:11.found that NHS chiefs are trying to keep plans
:58:12. > :58:13.to cut hospital services
:58:14. > :58:14.in England secret. The King's Fund report
:58:15. > :58:15.did not include any details of cuts
:58:16. > :58:18.but from the leaks and plans that have been published so far,
:58:19. > :58:20.a partial picture is emerging
:58:21. > :58:22.of what is involved. south-west London to close one
:58:23. > :58:25.of five hospitals - Saint George's, Kingston, Croydon,
:58:26. > :58:27.St Helier or Epsom. Thousands of London Underground
:58:28. > :58:29.staff have voted not to go on strike but will
:58:30. > :58:31.instead refuse to work overtime or rest days
:58:32. > :58:32.in a The RMT union is taking
:58:33. > :58:36.the action, claiming job cuts have made working
:58:37. > :58:44.on the Tube horrific. We have about a minute left.
:58:45. > :58:48.Kingston Hospital, used by your constituents. And St Helier in your
:58:49. > :58:53.constituency. One of those could go. Make the case for yours. I do know
:58:54. > :58:57.about you, I have heard CCG and the Kingston Hospital writes to me
:58:58. > :59:05.saying there are no plans to close any of the five hospitals and also
:59:06. > :59:07.remember the sustainability and transformation plan will have
:59:08. > :59:10.consultation. Do you accept that? If you believe that you will believe
:59:11. > :59:16.anything, I think St Helier is the target. It is not just the target
:59:17. > :59:18.for people in my bit of Mitcham and Morden, it will be a target for
:59:19. > :59:23.everybody because if that hospital is closed all of those people are
:59:24. > :59:26.going somewhere and I suspect it is St George is so sent Georges will be
:59:27. > :59:31.under enormous pressure.. We need that rationalisation, people would
:59:32. > :59:37.say support it? What we need, and what we will scrutinise, is about
:59:38. > :59:41.clinical care closer to home with better clinical networks. That is
:59:42. > :59:46.where the hospitals will come in. But they are not the whole picture
:59:47. > :59:51.anymore. Ten seconds. They think they can get 40% of people who
:59:52. > :59:55.currently turn up to A to get treatment in their community, it has
:59:56. > :59:58.never happened and will not happen in four years. It is subject we
:59:59. > :00:07.should spend more time on. Back to you.
:00:08. > :00:11.What will the Chancellor have to say in his first big economic statement?
:00:12. > :00:14.What impact will the forecasters say Brexit will have on the economy
:00:15. > :00:17.And who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in
:00:18. > :00:32.Well, the Shadow Chancellor and the Chancellor have both been
:00:33. > :00:33.touring the television studios this morning.
:00:34. > :00:39.Let's be clear, a lot of this is going to be gimmicks and press
:00:40. > :00:43.As I've said, in the pipeline, we've only
:00:44. > :00:46.seen one in five delivered to construction, that's all.
:00:47. > :00:48.So a lot of this will be a repeat of what
:00:49. > :00:52.I'm not going to reveal what I'm going to say on
:00:53. > :00:57.We don't have unlimited capacity, as one might
:00:58. > :01:00.imagine from listening to John McDonnell, to borrow
:01:01. > :01:05.hundreds of billions of pounds more for discretionary spending.
:01:06. > :01:08.That simply doesn't exist if we're going to
:01:09. > :01:11.retain this country's hard-won credibility in the financial markets
:01:12. > :01:15.if we are going to remain an attractive place for business to
:01:16. > :01:28.We didn't learn very much, Helen, but the papers were briefed this
:01:29. > :01:36.morning that there will be another ?1.3 billion for roads and things
:01:37. > :01:42.like that. ?1.3 billion is 0.08 of our GDP. Not exactly an
:01:43. > :01:46.infrastructure investment programme, is it? Yellow like I have to say, it
:01:47. > :01:55.was not thrilling to read the details. -- I have to say... It is
:01:56. > :01:59.the first big financial statement that is going to come and I think
:02:00. > :02:03.there will be a big row about the OBE are forecast because they cannot
:02:04. > :02:08.set out a range, they have to commit to one forecast. Everything they do
:02:09. > :02:17.is incredibly political. DOB are is on a hiding to nothing. -- DOB are
:02:18. > :02:25.-- the Office for Budget Responsibility. I don't know how
:02:26. > :02:29.they will square the circle. It is an interesting week. It is all about
:02:30. > :02:33.the economy and public finances and we don't have to talk about Brexit
:02:34. > :02:44.until next Sunday, but no, I have a terrible feeling that by the end of
:02:45. > :02:47.Wednesday afternoon we will be screaming and shouting about how
:02:48. > :02:50.Brexit is going to be for the economy. Just imagine the Treasury
:02:51. > :02:55.comes out with his forecast that it is going to collapse growth and
:02:56. > :03:02.collapsed Treasury takings, people will be apoplectic. Until now, the
:03:03. > :03:08.economy has continued to grow strongly. Pretty well. They cannot
:03:09. > :03:12.say, we have noticed it slowing down and that will continue. They have to
:03:13. > :03:16.take a punt if they think it will slow down. It affects the
:03:17. > :03:20.Chancellor's figures, because the more they say it is slowing down,
:03:21. > :03:25.and I have seen that it will go from 2% down to 1.4%, the more the
:03:26. > :03:30.Chancellor's deficit rises even without any more tax cuts and
:03:31. > :03:34.spending. Absolutely. I think Tom is right. What we will see this week is
:03:35. > :03:39.a continuation of the debate we have been having all along. If the Office
:03:40. > :03:43.for Budget Responsibility has negative and gloomy predictions
:03:44. > :03:51.there will be howls of agony, and rightly howls of frustration from
:03:52. > :03:54.Brexiteers who will say that all the dire predictions from before the
:03:55. > :03:58.referendum have not come to pass and now you are talking things down in a
:03:59. > :04:05.way that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The money for roads, you
:04:06. > :04:12.were dismissive about it, but every little helps. I don't dismiss it, I
:04:13. > :04:16.say it doesn't amount to a fiscal stimulus in macro economic terms.
:04:17. > :04:25.I'm sure if you are on that road, it will be useful. They are going to
:04:26. > :04:34.build a super highway between Oxford and Cambridge. I would like to see
:04:35. > :04:39.them go out to Japan and learn how to fill a hole in two days. I would
:04:40. > :04:43.suggest the road from Oxford to Cambridge is not for the just
:04:44. > :04:51.managing classes, even though it goes through Milton Keynes, and that
:04:52. > :04:58.simply freezing due freezing fuel duty isn't going to hack it, either.
:04:59. > :05:02.These just about managing people are potentially quite a big band. With
:05:03. > :05:06.income tax rises, it means anything you do to help them is incredibly
:05:07. > :05:10.expensive. The universal credit freeze is an interesting example of
:05:11. > :05:17.that. Philip Hammond sounded ambivalent about it after
:05:18. > :05:23.pre-briefings that it might not the cuts might not go ahead. There are
:05:24. > :05:29.people who are in work but because they are low paid don't have the
:05:30. > :05:33.number of hours, they require welfare benefits to top up their
:05:34. > :05:38.pay, and these welfare benefits as it stands, are frozen until 202 ,
:05:39. > :05:43.and yet inflation is now starting to rise. That's a problem for the just
:05:44. > :05:52.managing people. Correct. It is worse than that, because we are
:05:53. > :05:58.talking about April 2017 when tax credits become universal credits, so
:05:59. > :06:02.the squeeze will be greater. We will get a small highway between a couple
:06:03. > :06:06.of university towns, but if he has any money left to spend at all, it
:06:07. > :06:13.will be on some pretty seismic jazzman for the just about managing
:06:14. > :06:22.people. I am so glad we're not calling them Jams on this programme,
:06:23. > :06:29.because it is a patronising tone. What the Chancellor and Shadow
:06:30. > :06:34.Chancellor did not confront is that Mr Trump's election is a watershed
:06:35. > :06:37.in terms of being able to borrow cheaply. The Federal Reserve is
:06:38. > :06:41.about to start raising rates. The days of cheap borrowing for
:06:42. > :06:45.governments could be coming to an end. You can feel a bit sorry for
:06:46. > :06:50.labour here because after having had six years of being told that we need
:06:51. > :06:54.a surplus and these things are important, we can't deny the
:06:55. > :07:00.deficit, we have switched now and the first thing that Philip Hammond
:07:01. > :07:03.did was to scrap George Osborne s borrowing targets. He has given
:07:04. > :07:09.himself more wriggle room than George Osborne had. He has and it
:07:10. > :07:14.will cost them more. Debt servicing will now rise as a cost. Where is
:07:15. > :07:21.the next political earthquake going to happen?
:07:22. > :07:27.It could be Italy, or the French elections coming up next spring
:07:28. > :07:30.Now, who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in next
:07:31. > :07:31.year's French Presidential elections?
:07:32. > :07:33.Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans,
:07:34. > :07:35.are selecting their candidate in the first round of
:07:36. > :07:37.Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans,
:07:38. > :07:41.are selecting their candidate in the first round of
:07:42. > :07:45.Let's speak to our correspondent in Paris, Hugh Schofield.
:07:46. > :07:58.Welcome to the programme. Three main candidates, the former -- two former
:07:59. > :08:02.prime ministers and Nicolas Sarkozy, the former president. It is not
:08:03. > :08:06.clear who the front runner is. Robbins it is quite an exciting
:08:07. > :08:20.race, because four weeks it did look as if it was going to be Juppe. It
:08:21. > :08:24.is a two round race. Two go through and the idea is that they rally all
:08:25. > :08:29.the support together. It looked like the first round would be dominated
:08:30. > :08:35.by Juppe and Nicolas Sarkozy, and there was a clear binary combination
:08:36. > :08:40.there, because Sarkozy was looking for squeamish far right voters. In
:08:41. > :08:45.other words, veering clearly to the right and far right on immigration
:08:46. > :08:49.and identity issues. And Juppe is the opposite, saying we had to
:08:50. > :08:55.appeal to the centre. That was what it looked like. But the third
:08:56. > :08:59.candidate has made this really quite staggering surge in the last few
:09:00. > :09:04.days. There was a debate on Thursday and he was deemed to have won it on
:09:05. > :09:08.television. He is coming up strongly, and I wouldn't be at all
:09:09. > :09:14.surprised to see him go through which would be interesting from a
:09:15. > :09:18.British perspective, because if the becomes president, he will be the
:09:19. > :09:25.first president with a British wife. His wife Penelope is Welsh.
:09:26. > :09:29.We will have to leave it there. I would suggest that the reason it is
:09:30. > :09:33.fascinating is that whoever wins this primary for the centre-right
:09:34. > :09:37.party is likely to be the next president, and who the next
:09:38. > :09:40.president is will be very important for Britain in these Brexit
:09:41. > :09:44.negotiations. Nothing will really happen until it is determined. Then
:09:45. > :09:50.after the German elections in October. I would add one more
:09:51. > :09:58.constituent part. The most important thing about the race is who can stop
:09:59. > :10:07.Marine Le Pen. Marine Le Pen will almost be one of the ones in the
:10:08. > :10:12.run-off. The Socialists don't expect much. Francois Hollande is done
:10:13. > :10:17.There is too much of a cliff to climb. Which one of these three
:10:18. > :10:22.centre-right candidates can stop Marine Le Pen? We have had Brexit
:10:23. > :10:31.and Trump, but we could also have Marine Le Pen. If it is Sarkozy it
:10:32. > :10:38.is the battle of the right. In some areas, he has moved to the right of
:10:39. > :10:42.marine Le Pen. I suppose he feels he has do in order to take the wind out
:10:43. > :10:45.of our sails. You wonder if she could succeed later on if she does
:10:46. > :10:49.not this time. Talking to French analysts last night, there was
:10:50. > :10:52.suggesting that she could not do it this time but could win the next
:10:53. > :10:56.time. All the events in France over the last year seemed to provide the
:10:57. > :11:04.most propitious circumstances for her to do well, and particularly if
:11:05. > :11:07.you throw in Trump and Brexit. Suppose it is Mr Sarkozy, and he
:11:08. > :11:11.goes through and wins the Republican nomination, and he and Marine Le Pen
:11:12. > :11:19.go through to the second round, that would mean, think about it, is that
:11:20. > :11:26.a lot of French socialist voters and those on the father left would have
:11:27. > :11:32.to grit their teeth and vote for Nicolas Sarkozy. They might not do
:11:33. > :11:43.it. We might see what we saw in America, where lots of potential
:11:44. > :11:46.Clinton voters did not turn out You got politicians like Melanchon on
:11:47. > :11:52.the far left saying there are foreign workers taking bread out of
:11:53. > :11:56.French workers' mounts. We sometimes forget, because we tend to emphasise
:11:57. > :12:11.the National of the National front, but actually, there are economic
:12:12. > :12:20.policy is quite Bennite. Sarkozy is the Hillary Clinton of the French
:12:21. > :12:27.elections. He is Mr establishment. Juppe and the other third candidate
:12:28. > :12:29.are the same. You have to re-establish candidates running
:12:30. > :12:32.against an antiestablishment candidate. There are populist
:12:33. > :12:38.economic policies from the National front. The other three want to raise
:12:39. > :12:46.the retirement age and cut back on the 35 hour week, which are not
:12:47. > :12:50.classic electoral appeals. Mr Juppe used to be the Mayor of Bordeaux.
:12:51. > :12:55.And we are the biggest importers of claret, so that could have an
:12:56. > :13:01.effect. In 2002, it was Jack Shear against John Marine Le Pen, and the
:13:02. > :13:09.socialist campaign slogan was, vote for the Crook, not the fascist. We
:13:10. > :13:11.will see what they come up with this time.
:13:12. > :13:16.The Daily Politics is back at noon tomorrow on BBC Two,
:13:17. > :13:22.where on Wednesday I will have full coverage of the Chancellor's Autumn
:13:23. > :13:31.But remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.