:00:36. > :00:39.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:40. > :00:44.Was Fidel Castro a revolutionary hero or a murderous dictator?
:00:45. > :00:48.After the Cuban leader's death, politicians divide over his legacy.
:00:49. > :00:53.Can the NHS in England find billions of pounds' worth of efficiency
:00:54. > :00:58.The Shadow Health Secretary joins me live.
:00:59. > :01:01.Should we have a second Brexit referendum on the terms
:01:02. > :01:05.of the eventual withdrawal deal that's struck with the EU?
:01:06. > :01:08.Former Lib Dem leader Paddy Ashdown and former Conservative cabinet
:01:09. > :01:14.minister Owen Paterson go head-to-head.
:01:15. > :01:16.In London this week, how did the capital fare
:01:17. > :01:34.And with me, Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.
:01:35. > :01:37.They'll be tweeting throughout the programme
:01:38. > :01:43.Political leaders around the world have been reacting to the news
:01:44. > :01:46.of the death of Fidel Castro, the Cuban revolutionary who came
:01:47. > :01:50.to power in 1959 and ushered in a Marxist revolution.
:01:51. > :01:55.Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson described the former leader
:01:56. > :01:58.as an "historic if controversial figure" and said his death marked
:01:59. > :02:02.Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn said Castro was "a champion of social
:02:03. > :02:04.justice" who had "seen off a lot of US presidents"
:02:05. > :02:09.President-elect Donald Trump described the former Cuban leader
:02:10. > :02:12.as a "brutal dictator", adding that he hoped his death
:02:13. > :02:15.would begin a new era "in which the wonderful Cuban people
:02:16. > :02:20.finally live in the freedom they so richly deserve".
:02:21. > :02:22.Meanwhile, the President of the European Commission,
:02:23. > :02:25.Jean-Claude Juncker, said the controversial leader
:02:26. > :02:28.was "a hero for many" but "his legacy will be judged
:02:29. > :02:43.I guess we had worked that out ourselves. What do you make of the
:02:44. > :02:47.reactions so far across the political divide? Predictable. And I
:02:48. > :02:55.noticed that Jeremy Corbyn has come in for criticism for his tribute to
:02:56. > :02:59.Castro. But I think it was the right thing for him to do. We all know he
:03:00. > :03:03.was an admirer. He could have sat there for eight hours in his house,
:03:04. > :03:06.agonising over some bland statement which didn't alienate the many
:03:07. > :03:10.people who want to wade into attacked Castro. It would have been
:03:11. > :03:15.inauthentic and would have just added to the sort of mainstream
:03:16. > :03:18.consensus, and I think he was right to say what he believed in this
:03:19. > :03:24.respect. Elsewhere, it has been wholly predictable that there would
:03:25. > :03:30.be this device, because he divided opinion in such an emotive way.
:03:31. > :03:33.Steve, I take your point about authenticity and it might have
:03:34. > :03:39.looked a bit lame for Jeremy Corbyn to pretend that he had no affection
:03:40. > :03:43.for Fidel Castro at all, but do you think he made a bit of an error
:03:44. > :03:47.dismissing Castro's record, the negative side of it as just a floor?
:03:48. > :03:54.He could have acknowledged in more elaborate terms the huge costs. He
:03:55. > :03:57.wanted to go on about the health and education, which if you actually
:03:58. > :04:00.look up the indices on that, they are good relative to other
:04:01. > :04:07.countries. But they have come at such a huge cost. He was not a
:04:08. > :04:11.champion of criminal justice. If he had done that, it would have been
:04:12. > :04:17.utterly inauthentic. He doesn't believe it. And he would have
:04:18. > :04:21.thought there would be many other people focusing on all the epic
:04:22. > :04:27.failings. So he focused on what he believed. There are times when
:04:28. > :04:32.Corbyn's prominence in the media world now as leader widens the
:04:33. > :04:39.debate in an interesting and important way. I am not aware of any
:04:40. > :04:51.criticisms that Mr Corbyn has ever announced about Mr Castro. There
:04:52. > :04:54.were four words in his statement yesterday which is spin doctor would
:04:55. > :05:03.have forced him to say, for all his flaws. He was on this Cuban
:05:04. > :05:08.solidarity committee, which didn't exist to criticise Castro. It
:05:09. > :05:11.existed to help protect Castro from those, particularly the Americans,
:05:12. > :05:16.who were trying to undermine him. And Corbyn made a big deal yesterday
:05:17. > :05:21.saying he has always called out human rights abuses all over the
:05:22. > :05:26.world. But he said that in general, I call out human rights abuses. He
:05:27. > :05:33.never said, I have called out human rights abuses in Cuba. In the weeks
:05:34. > :05:40.ahead, more will come out about what these human rights abuses were. The
:05:41. > :05:47.lid will come off what was actually happening. Some well authenticated
:05:48. > :05:53.stories are pretty horrendous. I was speaking to a journalist who was
:05:54. > :06:00.working there in the 1990s, who gave me vivid examples of that, and there
:06:01. > :06:04.will be more to come. I still go back to, when a major figure diet
:06:05. > :06:10.and you are a leader who has admired but major figure, you have to say
:06:11. > :06:26.it. That is the trap he has fallen into. He has proved every criticism
:06:27. > :06:33.that he is a duck old ideologue. But he is not the only one. Prime
:06:34. > :06:39.Minister Trudeau was so if uses that I wondered if they were going to
:06:40. > :06:44.open up a book of condolences. I think it reinforces Corbyn's failing
:06:45. > :06:47.brand. It may be authentic, but authentic isn't working for him.
:06:48. > :06:54.When I was driving, I heard Trevor Phillips, who is a Blairite, saying
:06:55. > :06:59.the record was mixed and there were a lot of things to admire as well as
:07:00. > :07:03.all the terrible things. So it is quite nuanced. But if you are a
:07:04. > :07:08.leader issuing a sound bite, there is no space for new ones. You either
:07:09. > :07:14.decide to go for the consensus, which is to set up on the whole, it
:07:15. > :07:18.was a brutal dictatorship. Or you say, here is an extraordinary figure
:07:19. > :07:23.worthy of admiration. In my view, he was right to say what he believed.
:07:24. > :07:26.There was still a dilemma for the British government over who they
:07:27. > :07:34.sent to the funeral. Do they sent nobody, do they say and Boris
:07:35. > :07:41.Johnson as a post-ironic statement? There is now a post-Castro Cuba to
:07:42. > :07:45.deal with. Trump was quite diplomatic about post-Castro Cuba.
:07:46. > :07:54.And Boris Johnson's statement was restrained. The thing about Mr
:07:55. > :07:57.Castro was the longevity, 50 years of keeping Marxism on the island.
:07:58. > :07:58.That was what made it so fascinating.
:07:59. > :08:02.Before the last election, George Osborne promised the NHS
:08:03. > :08:05.in England a real-terms funding boost of ?8 billion per year by 2020
:08:06. > :08:09.on the understanding that NHS bosses would also find ?22 billion worth
:08:10. > :08:16.Since last autumn, NHS managers have been drawing up what they're calling
:08:17. > :08:18."Sustainability and Transformation Plans" to make these savings,
:08:19. > :08:25.but some of the proposals are already running into local
:08:26. > :08:28.opposition, while Labour say they amount to huge cuts to the NHS.
:08:29. > :08:34.Help is on the way for an elderly person in need in Hertfordshire.
:08:35. > :08:37.But east of England ambulance call operators
:08:38. > :08:41.they're sending an early intervention vehicle
:08:42. > :08:49.with a council-employed occupational therapist on board.
:08:50. > :08:51.It's being piloted here for over 65s with
:08:52. > :08:56.When they arrive, a paramedic judges if the patient can be
:08:57. > :08:59.treated immediately at home without a trip to hospital.
:09:00. > :09:02.Around 80% of patients have been treated this way,
:09:03. > :09:05.taking the strain off urgently-needed hospital beds,
:09:06. > :09:11.So the early intervention team has assessed the patient and decided
:09:12. > :09:24.The key to successful integration for Hertfordshire being able
:09:25. > :09:26.to collaboratively look at how we use our resources,
:09:27. > :09:28.to have pooled budgets, to allow us to understand
:09:29. > :09:31.where spend is, and to let us make conscientious decisions about how
:09:32. > :09:36.best to use that money, to come up with ideas to problems
:09:37. > :09:38.that sit between our organisations, to look at things collaboratively.
:09:39. > :09:41.This Hertfordshire hospital is also a good example of how
:09:42. > :09:48.You won't find an A unit or overnight beds here any more.
:09:49. > :09:54.The closest ones are 20 minutes down the road.
:09:55. > :09:56.What's left is nurse-led care in an NHS-built hospital.
:09:57. > :09:59.Despite a politically toxic change, this reconfiguration went
:10:00. > :10:02.through after broad public and political consultation
:10:03. > :10:06.with hospital clinicians and GPs on board.
:10:07. > :10:09.It's a notable achievement that's surely of interest to 60% of NHS
:10:10. > :10:16.trusts in England that reported a deficit at the end of September.
:10:17. > :10:19.It's not just here that the NHS needs to save money and provide
:10:20. > :10:25.The Government is going to pour in an extra ?8 billion into the NHS
:10:26. > :10:32.in England, but it has demanded ?22 billion
:10:33. > :10:34.worth of efficiencies across the country.
:10:35. > :10:36.In order to deliver that, the NHS has created 44 health
:10:37. > :10:39.and care partnerships, and each one will provide
:10:40. > :10:43.a sustainability and transformation plan, or STP, to integrate care,
:10:44. > :10:47.provide better services and save money.
:10:48. > :10:51.So far, 33 of these 44 regional plans, drawn up by senior people
:10:52. > :10:53.in the health service and local government,
:10:54. > :11:00.The NHS has been through five years of severely constrained spending
:11:01. > :11:04.growth, and there are another 4-5 years on the way at least.
:11:05. > :11:10.STPs themselves are an attempt to deal in a planned way
:11:11. > :11:16.But with plans to close some A units and reduce the number
:11:17. > :11:21.of hospital beds, there's likely to be a tough political battle
:11:22. > :11:25.ahead, with many MPs already up in arms about proposed
:11:26. > :11:29.This Tory backbencher is concerned about the local plans for his
:11:30. > :11:37.I wouldn't call it an efficiency if you are proposing to close
:11:38. > :11:41.all of the beds which are currently provided for those coming out
:11:42. > :11:43.of the acute sector who are elderly and looking
:11:44. > :11:46.That's not a cut, it's not an efficiency saving,
:11:47. > :11:55.All 44 STPs should be published in a month's time,
:11:56. > :12:00.But even before that, they dominated this week's PMQs.
:12:01. > :12:03.The Government's sustainability and transformation plans
:12:04. > :12:08.for the National Health Service hide ?22 billion of cuts.
:12:09. > :12:11.The National Health Service is indeed looking for savings
:12:12. > :12:16.within the NHS, which will be reinvested in the NHS.
:12:17. > :12:20.There will be no escape from angry MPs for the Health Secretary either.
:12:21. > :12:23.Well, I have spoken to the Secretary of State just this week
:12:24. > :12:27.about the importance of community hospitals in general,
:12:28. > :12:33.These are proposals out to consultation.
:12:34. > :12:38.What could happen if these plans get blocked?
:12:39. > :12:42.If STPs cannot be made to work, the planned changes don't come
:12:43. > :12:47.to pass, then the NHS will see over time a sort of unplanned
:12:48. > :12:48.deterioration and services becoming unstable and service
:12:49. > :12:55.The NHS barely featured in this week's Autumn Statement
:12:56. > :13:02.but the Prime Minister insisted beforehand that STPs
:13:03. > :13:04.are in the interests of local people.
:13:05. > :13:06.Her Government's support will now be critical for NHS England
:13:07. > :13:08.to push through these controversial regional plans,
:13:09. > :13:14.which will soon face public scrutiny.
:13:15. > :13:20.We did ask the Department of Health for an interview,
:13:21. > :13:23.I've been joined by the Shadow Health Secretary,
:13:24. > :13:40.Do you accept that the NHS is capable of making ?22 billion of
:13:41. > :13:43.efficiency savings? Well, we are very sceptical, as are number of
:13:44. > :13:48.independent organisations about the ability of the NHS to find 22
:13:49. > :13:52.billion of efficiencies without that affecting front line care. When you
:13:53. > :13:56.drill down into the 22 billion, based on the information we have
:13:57. > :13:59.been given, and there hasn't been much information, we can see that
:14:00. > :14:03.some of it will come from cutting the budget which go to community
:14:04. > :14:07.pharmacies, which could lead, according to ministers, to 3000
:14:08. > :14:12.pharmacies closing, which we believe will increase demands on A and
:14:13. > :14:16.GPs, and also that a lot of these changes which are being proposed,
:14:17. > :14:24.which was the focus of the package, we think will mean service cuts at a
:14:25. > :14:30.local level. Do they? The chief executive of NHS England says these
:14:31. > :14:33.efficiency plans are "Incredibly important". He used to work from
:14:34. > :14:40.Labour. The independent King's Fund calls them "The best hope to improve
:14:41. > :14:47.health and care services. There is no plan B". On the sustainable
:14:48. > :14:50.transformation plans, which will be across England to link up physical
:14:51. > :14:54.health, mental health and social care, for those services to
:14:55. > :14:57.collaborate more closely together and move beyond the fragmented
:14:58. > :15:04.system we have at the moment is important. It seems that the ground
:15:05. > :15:08.has shifted. It has moved into filling financial gaps. As we know,
:15:09. > :15:13.the NHS is going through the biggest financial squeeze in its history. By
:15:14. > :15:16.2018, per head spending on the NHS will be falling. If you want to
:15:17. > :15:22.redesign services for the long term in a local area, you need to put the
:15:23. > :15:25.money in. So of course, getting these services working better
:15:26. > :15:29.together and having a greater strategic oversight, which we would
:15:30. > :15:34.have had if we had not got rid of strategic health authority is in the
:15:35. > :15:39.last Parliament. But this is not an attempt to save 22 billion, this is
:15:40. > :15:46.an attempt to spend 22 billion more successfully, don't you accept that?
:15:47. > :15:53.Simon Stevens said we need 8 billion, and we need to find 22
:15:54. > :15:58.billion of savings. You have to spend 22 billion more efficiently.
:15:59. > :16:03.But the Government have not given that 8 billion to the NHS which they
:16:04. > :16:08.said they would. They said they would do it by 2020. But they have
:16:09. > :16:14.changed the definitions of spending so NHS England will get 8 billion by
:16:15. > :16:20.2020, but they have cut the public health budgets by about 4 million by
:16:21. > :16:24.20 20. The budget that going to initiatives to tackle sexually
:16:25. > :16:28.transmitted diseases, to tackle smoking have been cut back but the
:16:29. > :16:33.commissioning of things like school nurses and health visitors have been
:16:34. > :16:37.cut back as well. Simon Stevens said he can only deliver that five-year
:16:38. > :16:40.project if there is a radical upgrade in public health, which the
:16:41. > :16:46.Government have failed on, and if we deal with social care, and this week
:16:47. > :16:53.there was an... I understand that, but if you don't think the
:16:54. > :16:58.efficiency drive can free up 22 billion to take us to 30 billion by
:16:59. > :17:03.2020, where would you get the money from? I have been in this post now
:17:04. > :17:06.for five or six weeks and I want to have a big consultation with
:17:07. > :17:12.everybody who works in the health sector, as well as patients, carers
:17:13. > :17:19.and families. Though you don't know? I think it would be surprised if I
:17:20. > :17:25.had an arbitrary figure this soon into the job. Your party said they
:17:26. > :17:30.expected election of spring by this year, you need to have some idea by
:17:31. > :17:35.now, you inherited a portfolio from Diane Abbott, did she have no idea?
:17:36. > :17:39.To govern is to make choices and we would make different choices. The
:17:40. > :17:47.budget last year scored billions of giveaways in things like
:17:48. > :17:58.co-operating -- corporation tax. What I do want to do... Is work on a
:17:59. > :18:04.plan and the general election, whenever it comes, next year or in
:18:05. > :18:08.2020 or in between, to have costed plan for the NHS. But your party is
:18:09. > :18:13.committed to balancing the books on current spending, that is currently
:18:14. > :18:19.John McDonnell, the Shadow Chancellor's position. What we are
:18:20. > :18:23.talking about, this extra 30 billion, that is essentially current
:18:24. > :18:27.spending so if it doesn't come from efficiency savings, where does the
:18:28. > :18:34.money come from? Some of it is also capital. Mainly current spending. If
:18:35. > :18:45.you look at the details of the OBR, they have switched a million from
:18:46. > :18:49.the capital into revenue. Why -- how do you balance spending?
:18:50. > :18:58.That is why we need to have a debate. Every time we ask for
:18:59. > :19:02.Labour's policy, we are always told me a debate. Surely it is time to
:19:03. > :19:06.give some idea of what you stand for? There's huge doubts about the
:19:07. > :19:11.Government 's policy on this. You are the opposition, how would you do
:19:12. > :19:15.it? I want to work with John McDonnell to find a package to give
:19:16. > :19:18.the NHS the money it needs, but of course our Shadow Chancellor, like
:19:19. > :19:22.any Shadow Chancellor at this stage in the cycle, will want to see what
:19:23. > :19:29.the books look like a head of an election before making commitments.
:19:30. > :19:32.I am clear that the Labour Party has to go into the next general election
:19:33. > :19:34.with a clear policy to give the NHS the funding it needs because it has
:19:35. > :19:40.been going through the largest financial squeeze in its history.
:19:41. > :19:45.You say Labour will always give the NHS the money it needs, that is not
:19:46. > :19:50.a policy, it is a blank cheque. It is an indication of our commitment
:19:51. > :19:54.to the NHS. Under this Conservative government, the NHS has been getting
:19:55. > :19:59.a 1% increase. Throughout its history it has usually have about
:20:00. > :20:04.4%. Under the last Labour government it was getting 4%, before that
:20:05. > :20:07.substantially more. We think the NHS should get more but I don't have
:20:08. > :20:16.access to the NHS books in front of me. The public thinks there needs to
:20:17. > :20:20.be more money spent on health but they also think that should go cap
:20:21. > :20:26.in hand with the money being more efficiently spent, which is what
:20:27. > :20:31.this efficiency drive is designed to release 22 billion. Do you have an
:20:32. > :20:37.efficiency drive if it is not the Government's one? Of course we
:20:38. > :20:41.agree. We agree the NHS should be more efficient, we want to see
:20:42. > :20:48.productivity increased. Do know how to do that? One way is through
:20:49. > :20:55.investments, maintenance, but there is a 5 million maintenance backlog.
:20:56. > :21:02.One of the most high risk backlogs is something like 730 million. They
:21:03. > :21:06.are going to switch the capital spend into revenue spend. I believe
:21:07. > :21:09.that when you invest in maintenance and capital in the NHS, that
:21:10. > :21:13.contribute to increasing its productivity. You are now talking
:21:14. > :21:20.about 5 billion the maintenance, the chief executive says it needs 30
:21:21. > :21:26.billion more by 2020 as a minimum so that 35 billion. You want to spend
:21:27. > :21:30.more on social care, another for 5 billion on that so we have proper
:21:31. > :21:34.care in the community. By that calculation I'm up to about 40
:21:35. > :21:39.billion, which is fine, except where do you get the and balance the
:21:40. > :21:44.account at the same time? We will have to come up with a plan for that
:21:45. > :21:47.and that's why I will work with our Shadow Treasury team to come up with
:21:48. > :21:51.that plan when they head into the general election. At the moment we
:21:52. > :21:55.are saying to the NHS, sorry, we are not going to give you the
:21:56. > :22:03.investment, which is why we are seeing patient care deteriorating.
:22:04. > :22:08.The staff are doing incredible things but 180,000 are waiting in
:22:09. > :22:12.A beyond four hours, record levels of people delayed in beds in
:22:13. > :22:16.hospitals because there are not the beds in the community to go to save
:22:17. > :22:19.the NHS needs the investment. We know that and we know the
:22:20. > :22:24.Government's response to that and many think it is inadequate. What
:22:25. > :22:27.I'm trying to get from you is what your response would be and what your
:22:28. > :22:32.reaction will be to these efficiency plans. Your colleague Heidi
:22:33. > :22:38.Alexander, she had your job earlier this year, she warned of the danger
:22:39. > :22:45.of knee jerk blanket opposition to local efficiency plans. Do you agree
:22:46. > :22:52.with that? Yes. So every time a hospital is going to close as a
:22:53. > :22:55.result of this, and some will, it is Labour default position not just
:22:56. > :23:00.going to be we are against it? That is why we are going to judge each of
:23:01. > :23:04.these sustainability plans by a number of yardsticks. We want to see
:23:05. > :23:08.if they have the support of local clinicians, we want to see if they
:23:09. > :23:10.have the support of local authorities because they now have a
:23:11. > :23:15.role in the delivery of health care. We want to see if they make the
:23:16. > :23:19.right decisions for the long-term trends in population for local area.
:23:20. > :23:23.We want to see if they integrate social care and health. If they
:23:24. > :23:28.don't and therefore you will not bank that as an efficiency saving,
:23:29. > :23:32.you will say no, that's not the way to go, you are left then with
:23:33. > :23:38.finding the alternative funding to keep the NHS going. If you are
:23:39. > :23:44.cutting beds, for example the proposal is to cut something like
:23:45. > :23:48.5000 beds in Derbyshire and if there is the space in the community sector
:23:49. > :23:53.in Derbyshire, that will cause big problems for the NHS in the long
:23:54. > :23:58.term so it is a false economy. An example like that, we would be very
:23:59. > :24:01.sceptical the plans could work. Would it not be honest, given the
:24:02. > :24:06.sums of money involved and your doubts about the efficiency plan,
:24:07. > :24:12.which are shared by many people, to just say, look, among the wealthy
:24:13. > :24:18.nations, we spend a lower proportion of our GDP on health than most of
:24:19. > :24:23.the other countries, European countries included, we need to put
:24:24. > :24:28.up tax if we want a proper NHS. Wouldn't that be honest? I'm not the
:24:29. > :24:34.Shadow Chancellor, I don't make taxation policy. You are tempting me
:24:35. > :24:39.down a particular road by you or I smile. John McDonnell will come up
:24:40. > :24:42.with our taxation policy. We have had an ambition to meet the European
:24:43. > :24:46.average, the way these things are measured have changed since then,
:24:47. > :24:52.but we did have that ambition and for a few years we met it. We need
:24:53. > :24:55.substantial investment in the NHS. Everyone accepts it was
:24:56. > :24:59.extraordinary that there wasn't an extra penny for the NHS in the
:25:00. > :25:04.Autumn Statement this week. And as we go into the general election,
:25:05. > :25:08.whenever it is, we will have a plan for the NHS. Come back and speak to
:25:09. > :25:11.us when you know what you are going to do. Thank you.
:25:12. > :25:13.Theresa May has promised to trigger formal Brexit negotiations
:25:14. > :25:16.before the end of March, but the Prime Minister must wait
:25:17. > :25:18.for the Supreme Court to decide whether parliament must vote
:25:19. > :25:22.If that is the Supreme Court's conclusion, the Liberal Democrats
:25:23. > :25:24.and others in parliament have said they'll demand a second EU
:25:25. > :25:27.referendum on the terms of the eventual Brexit deal before
:25:28. > :25:30.And last week, two former Prime Ministers suggested
:25:31. > :25:33.that the referendum result could be reversed.
:25:34. > :25:36.In an interview with the New Statesman on Thursday,
:25:37. > :25:39.Tony Blair said, "It can be stopped if the British people decide that,
:25:40. > :25:42.having seen what it means, the pain-gain cost-benefit analysis
:25:43. > :25:48.John Major also weighed in, telling a meeting
:25:49. > :25:51.of the National Liberal Club that the terms of Brexit
:25:52. > :25:53.were being dictated by the "tyranny of the majority".
:25:54. > :25:55.He also said there is a "perfectly credible case"
:25:56. > :25:59.That prompted the former Conservative leader
:26:00. > :26:02.Iain Duncan Smith to criticise John Major.
:26:03. > :26:05.He told the BBC, "The idea we delay everything simply
:26:06. > :26:07.because they disagree with the original result does
:26:08. > :26:12.seem to me an absolute dismissal of democracy."
:26:13. > :26:15.So, is there a realistic chance of a second referendum on the terms
:26:16. > :26:20.of whatever Brexit deal Theresa May manages to secure?
:26:21. > :26:23.Lib Dem party leader Tim Farron has said, "We want to respect
:26:24. > :26:27.the will of the people and that means they must have their say
:26:28. > :26:30.in a referendum on the terms of the deal."
:26:31. > :26:33.But the Lib Dems have just eight MPs - they'll need Labour support
:26:34. > :26:39.One ally is former Labour leadership candidate Owen Smith.
:26:40. > :26:42.He backs the idea of a second referendum.
:26:43. > :26:45.But yesterday the party's deputy leader, Tom Watson, said that,
:26:46. > :26:48."Unlike the Lib Dem Brexit Deniers, we believe in respecting
:26:49. > :26:56.To discuss whether or not there should be a second referendum
:26:57. > :26:59.on the terms of the Brexit deal, I've been joined by two
:27:00. > :27:02.In Somerset is the former Lib Dem leader Paddy Ashdown,
:27:03. > :27:04.and in Shropshire is the former Conservative cabinet minister
:27:05. > :27:16.Paddy Ashdown, let me come to you first. When the British people have
:27:17. > :27:22.spoken, you do what they command, either you believe in democracy or
:27:23. > :27:28.you don't. When democracy speaks, we obey. Your words on the night of the
:27:29. > :27:32.referendum, what's changed? Nothing has changed, Andrew, that's what I
:27:33. > :27:36.said and what I still believe in. The British people have spoken, we
:27:37. > :27:43.will not block Parliament debating the Brexit decision, Article 50, but
:27:44. > :27:49.we will introduce an amendment to say that we need to consult the
:27:50. > :27:57.British people, not about if we go out but what destination we would
:27:58. > :28:01.then achieve. There is a vast difference in ordinary people's
:28:02. > :28:05.lives between the so-called hard Brexit and soft Brexit. Soft Brexit,
:28:06. > :28:10.you remain in the single market, you have to accept and agree on
:28:11. > :28:18.immigration. Hard Brexit you are out of the single market, we have many
:28:19. > :28:23.fewer jobs... Why didn't you say before the referendum there would be
:28:24. > :28:28.a second referendum on the terms? Forgive me, I said it on many
:28:29. > :28:33.occasions, you may not have covered it, Andrew, but that's a different
:28:34. > :28:37.thing. In every speech I gave I said this, and this has proved to be
:28:38. > :28:40.true, since those who recommended Brexit refused to tell us the
:28:41. > :28:45.destination they were recommending, they refuse to give any detail about
:28:46. > :28:50.the destination, if we did vote to go out, it would probably be
:28:51. > :28:54.appropriate to decide which destination, hard Brexit or soft
:28:55. > :28:59.Brexit we go to. They deliberately obscure that because it made it more
:29:00. > :29:05.difficult to argue the case. It wasn't part of the official campaign
:29:06. > :29:09.but let me come to Owen Paterson. What's wrong with a referendum on
:29:10. > :29:13.the terms of the deal? We voted to leave but we don't really know on
:29:14. > :29:16.what conditions we leave so what's wrong with negotiating the deal and
:29:17. > :29:24.putting that deal to the British people? This would be a ridiculous
:29:25. > :29:28.idea, it would be a complete gift to the EU negotiators to go for an
:29:29. > :29:33.impossibly difficult deal because they want to do everything to make
:29:34. > :29:38.sure that Brexit does not go through. This nonsense idea of hard
:29:39. > :29:42.Brexit and soft Brexit, it was never discussed during the referendum
:29:43. > :29:47.campaign. We made it clear we wanted to take back control, that means
:29:48. > :29:51.making our own laws, raising and spending the money agreed by elected
:29:52. > :29:55.politicians, getting control of our own borders back, and getting
:29:56. > :29:59.control of our ability to do trade deals around the world. That was
:30:00. > :30:05.clear at all stages of the referendum. We got 17.4 million
:30:06. > :30:10.votes, the biggest vote in history for any issue, that 52%, 10% more
:30:11. > :30:15.than John Major got and he was happy with his record number of 14
:30:16. > :30:19.million, more than Tony Blair got, which was 43%, so we have a very
:30:20. > :30:24.clear mandate. Time and again people come up to me and say when are we
:30:25. > :30:27.going to get on with this. The big problem is uncertainty. We want to
:30:28. > :30:30.trigger Article 50, have the negotiation and get to a better
:30:31. > :30:40.place. OK, I need to get a debate going.
:30:41. > :30:43.Paddy Ashdown, the EU doesn't want us to leave. If they knew there was
:30:44. > :30:46.going to be a second referendum, surely there was going to be a
:30:47. > :30:48.second referendum, surely their incentive would be to give us the
:30:49. > :30:53.worst possible deal would vote against it would put us in a
:30:54. > :30:57.ridiculous negotiating position. On the contrary, the government could
:30:58. > :31:00.go and negotiate with the European Union and anyway, the opinion of the
:31:01. > :31:04.European Union is less important than the opinion of the British
:31:05. > :31:09.people. It seems to me that Owen Paterson made the case for me
:31:10. > :31:15.precisely. They refuse to discuss what kind of destination. Britain
:31:16. > :31:18.voted for departure, but not a destination. Because Owen Paterson
:31:19. > :31:23.and his colleagues refused to discuss what their model was. So the
:31:24. > :31:26.range of options here and the impact on the people of Britain is huge.
:31:27. > :31:30.There is nothing to stop the government going to negotiate,
:31:31. > :31:35.getting the best deal it can and go into the British people and saying,
:31:36. > :31:43.this is the deal, guys, do you agree? Owen Paterson? It is simple.
:31:44. > :31:50.The British people voted to leave. We voted to take back control of our
:31:51. > :31:53.laws, our money, our borders. But most people don't know the shape of
:31:54. > :32:00.what the deal would be. So why not have a vote on it? Because it would
:32:01. > :32:05.be a gift to the EU negotiators to drive the worst possible deal in the
:32:06. > :32:09.hope that it might be chucked out with a second referendum. The
:32:10. > :32:16.biggest danger is the uncertainty. We have the biggest vote in British
:32:17. > :32:19.history. You have said all that. It was your side that originally
:32:20. > :32:25.proposed a second referendum. The director of Leave said, there is a
:32:26. > :32:31.strong democratic case for a referendum on what the deal looks
:32:32. > :32:42.like. Your side. Come on, you are digging up a blog from June of 2015.
:32:43. > :32:50.He said he had not come to a conclusion. He said it is a distinct
:32:51. > :32:54.possibility. No senior members of the campaign said we would have a
:32:55. > :32:58.second referendum. It is worth chucking Paddy the quote he gave on
:32:59. > :33:02.ITV news, whether it is a majority of 1% or 20%, when the British
:33:03. > :33:09.people have spoken, you do what they command. People come up to me and
:33:10. > :33:18.keep asking, when are you going to get on with it? What do you say to
:33:19. > :33:21.that, Paddy Ashdown? Owen Paterson has obviously not been paying
:33:22. > :33:32.attention. You ask me that question at the start. Owen and his kind have
:33:33. > :33:35.to stick to the same argument. During the referendum, when we said
:33:36. > :33:41.that the Europeans have it in their interest to picket tough for us,
:33:42. > :33:45.they would suffer as well. And that has proved to be right. The European
:33:46. > :33:51.Union does not wish to hand as a bad deal, because they may suffer in the
:33:52. > :34:03.process. We need the best deal for both sides. I can't understand why
:34:04. > :34:06.Owen is now reversing that argument. Here is the question I am going to
:34:07. > :34:15.ask you. If we have a second referendum on the deal and we vote
:34:16. > :34:26.by a very small amount, by a sliver, to stay in, can we then make it
:34:27. > :34:31.best-of-3? No, Andrew! Vince Cable says he thinks if you won, he would
:34:32. > :34:36.have to have a decider. You will have to put that income tax, because
:34:37. > :34:44.I don't remember when he said that. -- you have to put that in context.
:34:45. > :34:50.Independent, 19th of September. That is a decision on the outcome. The
:34:51. > :34:55.central point is that the British people voted for departure, not a
:34:56. > :35:00.destination. In response to the claim that this is undemocratic, if
:35:01. > :35:05.it is democratic to have one referendum, how can it be
:35:06. > :35:08.undemocratic to have two? Owen Paterson, the British government, on
:35:09. > :35:12.the brink of triggering article 50, cannot tell us if we will remain
:35:13. > :35:18.members of the single market, if we will remain members of the customs
:35:19. > :35:23.union. From that flows our ability to make trade deals, our attitude
:35:24. > :35:26.towards freedom of movement and the rest of it. Given that the
:35:27. > :35:30.government can't tell us, it is clear that the British people have
:35:31. > :35:35.no idea what the eventual shape will be. That is surely the fundamental
:35:36. > :35:42.case for a second referendum. Emphatically not. They have given a
:35:43. > :35:49.clear vote. That vote was to take back control. What the establishment
:35:50. > :35:52.figures like Paddy should recognise is the shattering damage it would do
:35:53. > :35:59.to the integrity of the whole political process if this was not
:36:00. > :36:03.delivered. People come up to me, as I have said for the third time now,
:36:04. > :36:08.wanting to know when we will get article 50 triggered. Both people
:36:09. > :36:13.who have voted to Remain and to Leave. If we do not deliver this, it
:36:14. > :36:17.will be disastrous for the reputation and integrity of the
:36:18. > :36:25.whole political establishment. Let me put that you Paddy Ashdown. It is
:36:26. > :36:29.very Brussels elite - were ask your question but if we don't like the
:36:30. > :36:38.answer, we will keep asking the question. Did it with the Irish and
:36:39. > :36:44.French. It is... It would really anger the British people, would it
:36:45. > :36:48.not? That is an interesting question, Andrew. I don't think it
:36:49. > :36:51.would. All the evidence I see in public meetings I attended, and I
:36:52. > :36:55.think it is beginning to show in the opinion polls, although there hasn't
:36:56. > :36:58.been a proper one on this yet, I suspect there is a majority in
:36:59. > :37:01.Britain who would wish to see a second referendum on the outcome.
:37:02. > :37:06.They take the same view as I do. What began with an open democratic
:37:07. > :37:10.process cannot end with a government stitch up. Contrary to what Owen
:37:11. > :37:18.suggests, there is public support for this. And far from damaging the
:37:19. > :37:22.government and the political class, it showed that we are prepared to
:37:23. > :37:31.listen. We shall see. Paddy Ashdown, have you eaten your hat yet? Andrew,
:37:32. > :37:36.as you well know, I have eaten five hats. You cannot have a second
:37:37. > :37:39.referendum until you eat your hat on my programme. We will leave it
:37:40. > :37:47.there. Paddy Ashdown and Owen Paterson, thank you much. I have
:37:48. > :37:50.eaten a hat on your programme. I don't remember!
:37:51. > :37:52.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:53. > :37:55.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:37:56. > :37:58.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
:37:59. > :38:06.First, though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:38:07. > :38:12.This week, it's a little over six months since Sadiq Khan won
:38:13. > :38:16.Given his background, growing up on an estate in south
:38:17. > :38:18.London, some have seen it as a story of ambition and aspiration
:38:19. > :38:23.Abroad, too, it's generated plenty of interest -
:38:24. > :38:27.he is of course the first Muslim mayor of a major western city.
:38:28. > :38:29.And well into his stride now, he's with us today.
:38:30. > :38:41.Well, it's tough, but I'm loving it. Being the mayor of the city you were
:38:42. > :38:45.born and raised in is a privilege and an honour. Each day, I meet some
:38:46. > :38:48.of the Londoners who help make our city the greatest city in the world,
:38:49. > :38:51.from police officers to the Fire Service to the Ambulance Service to
:38:52. > :38:55.actors and journalists and others who worked their socks off to make
:38:56. > :39:07.London the global city that we are. Have you got highlights and low
:39:08. > :39:09.lights yet? Lots of highlights. Meeting the police officers who keep
:39:10. > :39:12.us safe or doctors and Ambulance Service has been a joy. The staff at
:39:13. > :39:15.City Hall work their socks off. And also getting the first night tube
:39:16. > :39:17.was a village. I was on the Victoria Line from Brixton. That was good
:39:18. > :39:22.fun. Putting the whup affair was fun. Visiting building sites, where
:39:23. > :39:29.we are starting to get affordable homes. What about the downside?
:39:30. > :39:35.Safety and security. That is what keeps me awake at night. Being in
:39:36. > :39:39.Russell Square, I came back from holiday because I was worried it
:39:40. > :39:42.could have been a terrorist incident. The Croydon tram was the
:39:43. > :39:44.worst day since I have been mayor. My thoughts and prayers are still
:39:45. > :39:49.with those who lost their loved ones. But as tough as the job is, I
:39:50. > :39:51.am loving it. You have certainly been busy.
:39:52. > :39:53.Let's get on to the Autumn Statement first.
:39:54. > :39:58.And what did it all say about Theresa May's attitude
:39:59. > :40:02.Theresa May says her Government is all about those
:40:03. > :40:06.She cares about the Jams, people who are Just About Managing,
:40:07. > :40:08.many of whom live outside our prosperous capital and resent
:40:09. > :40:13.We see division and unfairness all around, between a more
:40:14. > :40:18.prosperous older generation and a struggling younger generation,
:40:19. > :40:22.between the wealth of London and the rest of the country.
:40:23. > :40:26.So who stood to gain from this week's Autumn Statement?
:40:27. > :40:28.The English regions - north of England - the Midlands
:40:29. > :40:30.- Northern Ireland executive - Welsh government -
:40:31. > :40:35.For too long, economic growth in our country has been too
:40:36. > :40:38.concentrated in London and the south-east.
:40:39. > :40:41.But the Chancellor still had some goodies for the capital,
:40:42. > :40:48.where London is only just about managing too.
:40:49. > :40:50.London will receive ?3.15 billion as its share of national affordable
:40:51. > :40:53.housing funding to deliver a commitment of over
:40:54. > :41:01.We are also devolving to London the adult education budget
:41:02. > :41:04.and giving London greater control over the delivery
:41:05. > :41:08.of employment support services for the hardest to help.
:41:09. > :41:12.There was a mixed reception from London councils.
:41:13. > :41:14.There was recognition in the Autumn Statement that London
:41:15. > :41:16.faces a housing crisis, and money to address that.
:41:17. > :41:19.But London also faces, along with the rest of the country,
:41:20. > :41:21.a social care crisis, and there wasn't a single
:41:22. > :41:24.mention of social care in today's Autumn Statement.
:41:25. > :41:30.And that concerns me greatly as we go into the winter period.
:41:31. > :41:33.Conspicuously absent from the Autumn Statement
:41:34. > :41:36.were a number of items from City Hall's wish list.
:41:37. > :41:38.Sadiq Khan will be disappointed that he hasn't got any
:41:39. > :41:44.Indeed, City Hall has already said that.
:41:45. > :41:48.There could have been a far more radical version of devolution
:41:49. > :41:52.offered to London by Philip Hammond, or there could have
:41:53. > :41:54.been significantly more about the possibility
:41:55. > :41:59.So what did the minister for London have to say to the Mayor of London
:42:00. > :42:05.In relation to rail, I am an MP for Croydon.
:42:06. > :42:09.I know what it's like on the Southern route at the moment.
:42:10. > :42:11.My colleague Chris Grayling, the Secretary of State
:42:12. > :42:13.for Transport, his view is that he wants to work
:42:14. > :42:16.with the mayor and TfL to work with services.
:42:17. > :42:18.But he's nervous about a complete reorganisation, because that
:42:19. > :42:22.A standout win for the mayor on housing, but what
:42:23. > :42:30.the Government to grant London more power over its own affairs?
:42:31. > :42:42.What can you do? This Budget didn't seem very London centred. It depends
:42:43. > :42:46.whether you are a glass half full or a glass half empty person. We have
:42:47. > :42:49.seen the firsts that is towards greater devolution. I am pleased
:42:50. > :42:52.about the record amounts we have been given for affordable housing.
:42:53. > :43:01.Skills devolution for those above 19. I am disappointed that the
:43:02. > :43:04.government has not matched my fares freeze with TfL. I am disappointed
:43:05. > :43:12.that we have not got devolution of the suburban lines with their
:43:13. > :43:16.cancellations and huge delays. What do you think about the signals
:43:17. > :43:21.there? It seems to be that you may not get it. They are more concerned
:43:22. > :43:26.about the operators of the track and the people responsible for the track
:43:27. > :43:29.working better together. My job is to address the concerns that the
:43:30. > :43:33.Transport Secretary has. We have a new government and I don't think it
:43:34. > :43:37.is unreasonable for them to ask these tough questions for me to
:43:38. > :43:42.answer. The good news is, across London, MPs from all parties,
:43:43. > :43:46.councils from all sides and Team London are united and we can do a
:43:47. > :43:53.better job bringing in revenues for the government. Chris Grayling
:43:54. > :43:59.doesn't see it that way. The challenge for me is to persuade him
:44:00. > :44:02.to give us more devolution. Let me tell you why it is important.
:44:03. > :44:06.Crossrail one have accepted the case that people outside London will
:44:07. > :44:09.benefit from us being in charge of that. We have already seen with the
:44:10. > :44:12.London Overground what a difference we can make running a train service
:44:13. > :44:18.for people inside and outside London. And we have recently seen
:44:19. > :44:23.the Liverpool Street are line given over to us. I have to persuade Chris
:44:24. > :44:30.Grayling, I can reassure him that if we take over Southern, we can do a
:44:31. > :44:35.good job for both Londoners and those outside London. Do you get on
:44:36. > :44:38.with Chris Grayling? We have had differences outside the chamber as
:44:39. > :44:42.you would expect from a Conservative and Labour politician, but I get on
:44:43. > :44:50.with most politicians. I am seeing Chris next week. It is important
:44:51. > :44:54.that I meet the Prime Minister, the Chancellor and members of the
:44:55. > :44:58.government, whether it is Liam Fox, David Davis, Boris Johnson, Philip
:44:59. > :45:02.Hammond, the Prime Minister. And you hope to get something out of this
:45:03. > :45:06.meeting that you can tell Londoners about? I hope so. When a new
:45:07. > :45:09.government was formed in August, you will remember that the concern we
:45:10. > :45:13.had was that the door would be shut to any further devolution to London.
:45:14. > :45:19.The good news is that the door is still a jar. We have had the first
:45:20. > :45:21.steps towards a major devolution package for London. What has not
:45:22. > :45:25.happened is that the government has sacrificed London's prosperity for
:45:26. > :45:29.the rest of the country. I am a firm believer in London doing well, but
:45:30. > :45:35.also the rest of the country doing well. Some people did not feel like
:45:36. > :45:38.the focus was on London. The focus might be shifting away. Do you
:45:39. > :45:39.accept that that might be the case and for political reasons, the
:45:40. > :45:53.government may want to do that? It's definitely been the perception
:45:54. > :45:58.among experts. I think we have made huge progress, and councils from all
:45:59. > :46:04.sides deserve credit. MPs deserve credit. If you care about the
:46:05. > :46:10.northern Powerhouse, about Scotland and Wales, you have got to make sure
:46:11. > :46:13.London does well. If you compare London to Wales, Scotland and
:46:14. > :46:18.Northern Ireland, those three countries combined have fewer people
:46:19. > :46:25.than London and yet we have less say over our destiny. Is Jeremy Corbyn
:46:26. > :46:30.making that case together? Team London, MPs from all sides, from the
:46:31. > :46:40.Lib Dems, Conservatives and Labour as well, and the councils under
:46:41. > :46:43.close leadership, businesses as well, team London has got to
:46:44. > :46:50.persuade the Government that it is in the interests of the country to
:46:51. > :46:55.have more say over our destiny. How many times have you met Jeremy
:46:56. > :47:04.Corbyn is you became mayor? We have met a couple of times, we are due to
:47:05. > :47:09.meet shortly as well. My job as the mayor is different, I have to make
:47:10. > :47:12.sure I am a champion and fight for what I think is the greatest city in
:47:13. > :47:17.the world. But he would be seen as an asset to you in trying to make
:47:18. > :47:21.this case to secure London's economic future post Brexit. Of
:47:22. > :47:30.course, Jeremy is a London MP but also the leader of the Labour Party.
:47:31. > :47:36.It is important I speak to politicians of all sides, of course
:47:37. > :47:41.that includes my side as well. You say you have held more before 2
:47:42. > :47:47.billion for housing, are you going to build those 90,000 homes, 50,000
:47:48. > :47:52.affordable homes every year? We are going to make a start, it will be a
:47:53. > :47:58.hard slog, and marathon, not a sprint. We are getting a team of
:47:59. > :48:03.experts, housing associations, developers and experts, working on
:48:04. > :48:07.viability. We are recruiting for viability experts in City Hall. It
:48:08. > :48:10.is crucial we start building homes that are genuinely affordable for
:48:11. > :48:16.Londoners, including the relaxation from the Government that I welcome
:48:17. > :48:22.in saying firstly they are obsessed now by these homes costing up to
:48:23. > :48:29.?450 million, they agree they are not necessarily affordable for
:48:30. > :48:34.Londoners. We have got to make sure the right source of homes are built
:48:35. > :48:39.for Londoners. We heard from Shelter that you have vowed that 50% of the
:48:40. > :48:43.homes you deliver our affordable, here you have the money the
:48:44. > :48:47.Government has given you specifically to build those homes
:48:48. > :48:54.each year so presumably you can fully sign up to that. The
:48:55. > :49:00.Government and I have come up with a deal that by 2021 we will build
:49:01. > :49:06.90,000 homes and I intend to do that. Any more than that though, is
:49:07. > :49:11.that it? This is the crucial point, we mustn't allow this to be the
:49:12. > :49:13.height of our aspiration. Last year the fewest number of affordable
:49:14. > :49:20.homes built under the previous mayor, roughly speaking 5000. Look
:49:21. > :49:24.at the pipe line of homes coming through, only 30% of homes being
:49:25. > :49:29.given permission to be built, it takes a couple of years from that
:49:30. > :49:33.permission to being built, so we have a crisis here. There are
:49:34. > :49:35.complex and challenging issues and I'm determined to get on top of
:49:36. > :49:37.them. OK. But what can we glean so far
:49:38. > :49:40.about this mayoralty? Dan Freedman's been scaling
:49:41. > :49:43.the heights of the 02 building, or the Dome, as some of us
:49:44. > :49:46.still like to call it, Climbing to the summit of London's
:49:47. > :49:50.political scene has been a hard slog for Sadiq Khan,
:49:51. > :49:52.who is famously from humble At times too, no doubt,
:49:53. > :50:00.it's been a lonely journey. Now he's reached the summit,
:50:01. > :50:03.no time to look around and observe the view,
:50:04. > :50:05.as nice as it may be. He made a lot of promises to
:50:06. > :50:09.Londoners to get him into City Hall. Now he's there, six months in,
:50:10. > :50:11.has he delivered on His big four pledges
:50:12. > :50:15.were on housing, transport, So as we reach the end
:50:16. > :50:21.of term, how has he done? His housing policy promise
:50:22. > :50:24.was to ensure that 50% of new homes The mayor needs to deliver this
:50:25. > :50:30.target, because we are talking about over half of Londoners not
:50:31. > :50:33.being able to afford their rent, 88,000 children this
:50:34. > :50:38.Christmas being homeless. There are areas where we think
:50:39. > :50:41.the mayor could be bolder. And he will need to be
:50:42. > :50:44.if he is to meet his ambitious So we would be looking
:50:45. > :50:48.at a bit more flexibility Perhaps the most eye-catching
:50:49. > :50:54.promise, which he has already implemented,
:50:55. > :50:56.was a pledge to freeze TfL transport and introduce a one-hour bus
:50:57. > :51:01.hopper ticket, meaning, in the mayor's words,
:51:02. > :51:04."Londoners will not pay a penny more The so-called fares freeze
:51:05. > :51:09.is nothing of the sort. Over 1 million people
:51:10. > :51:12.will not benefit from it. He said Londoners would not pay
:51:13. > :51:15.a penny more in fares in 2020, He is now hiding behind the fact
:51:16. > :51:22.that as the chairman of TfL, he can only set TfL fares,
:51:23. > :51:26.which is true, but he didn't make that distinction once
:51:27. > :51:28.in a six-month mayoral campaign. And this wasn't a backroom policy,
:51:29. > :51:32.it was the marquee policy for the campaign, and he never
:51:33. > :51:35.made that distinction. On crime, his promise to make London
:51:36. > :51:38.safer and tackle knife crime flies in the face of 11 fatal teenage
:51:39. > :51:42.stabbings this year so far. He definitely understands the issues
:51:43. > :51:45.of knife crime in London and understands how
:51:46. > :51:46.they affect young Londoners Where I think we could see some
:51:47. > :51:57.improvement is in terms of action. This has been a tragic year
:51:58. > :52:00.for Londoners in terms And finally on pollution,
:52:01. > :52:09.the mayor has promised to restore London's air quality to legal
:52:10. > :52:14.and safe levels. There is no sign of that
:52:15. > :52:16.being achieved before But to give him his due,
:52:17. > :52:22.the mayor has got off to a good start, but I think he's just
:52:23. > :52:25.realising the scale of the problem that Boris left behind him,
:52:26. > :52:28.which is three times the legal limit in Putney High Street
:52:29. > :52:33.and Brixton Road. Diesel vehicles are responsible
:52:34. > :52:35.for over 90% of the most There is only one thing
:52:36. > :52:41.which will make London comply with these standards,
:52:42. > :52:43.and that is to ban diesel vehicles Sadiq is proposing to issue them
:52:44. > :52:50.with a modest charge That is not good enough
:52:51. > :52:58.in his first term. Sadiq is good on incentivising
:52:59. > :53:00.affordable housing, but we would like to see more
:53:01. > :53:03.on direct action to build homes. Mayor Khan, for your first
:53:04. > :53:08.six months in charge, Mayor Khan, I know you understand
:53:09. > :53:14.the issues involved in youth violence and I know that you care,
:53:15. > :53:17.but we need to see action now to stop more young people
:53:18. > :53:19.being murdered. Sadiq, you've got off
:53:20. > :53:24.to a good start, but please So not bad, but could do better
:53:25. > :53:31.seems to be the verdict Sadiq Khan has only been
:53:32. > :53:40.in the job six months. He has three and a half
:53:41. > :53:43.years left at City Hall, plenty of time to make his mark,
:53:44. > :54:10.and plenty to build on too. Is that fair? Yes, we have a big job
:54:11. > :54:19.to do. All of the points made by the experts were good point. As for the
:54:20. > :54:22.Tory chap... ! Let's look at the one Gareth Baker made because Londoners
:54:23. > :54:29.won't pay a penny more, do you regret phrasing it like that? No, I
:54:30. > :54:33.was quite clear in my manifesto and the BBC came along when I unveiled
:54:34. > :54:37.this massive poster which had a good-looking Labour candidate and
:54:38. > :54:44.above me were the words tear fell fares frozen... It didn't specify,
:54:45. > :54:49.do you feel you should have made the distinction clearly? I was clear,
:54:50. > :54:54.transport for London fares to be frozen. In the last eight years they
:54:55. > :54:58.have gone up by more than 42%, we have the most expensive fares in all
:54:59. > :55:03.of Europe. I have frozen them over the next four years. If I can do it,
:55:04. > :55:07.why can't the Government, and that's why am disappointed by the Autumn
:55:08. > :55:14.Statement. The previous mayor who said it wasn't possible to have a
:55:15. > :55:22.two for one hopper, I have done it, unlimited bus travel within one
:55:23. > :55:28.hour. The previous three mayors promised on the night you, I have
:55:29. > :55:31.got it running. Those people paying on travelcards are going to be
:55:32. > :55:34.paying more every year, do you regret they were given the
:55:35. > :55:42.impression by you they were going to? I understand the Government have
:55:43. > :55:47.not managed to do with train companies what I have done with
:55:48. > :56:00.Transport for London. You never went back to the rail companies when you
:56:01. > :56:05.are asked about it. We have frozen them for the next four years,
:56:06. > :56:09.Transport for London fares. My point to the Conservative is that he
:56:10. > :56:12.should be lobbying his government to say that if the Mayor of London Ken
:56:13. > :56:19.freeze Transport for London fares, how can you does the Government not
:56:20. > :56:25.persuade the private companies, which make a huge amount of profits
:56:26. > :56:29.by the way, to freeze their fares? It is supposed to cost at the moment
:56:30. > :56:34.?640 million, the cost of your fares freeze, now that we know inflation
:56:35. > :56:37.is jumping up so high, it is going much closer to what Transport for
:56:38. > :56:44.London was Saints would lead to it costing much more, 1.9 billion. Do
:56:45. > :56:49.you accept how your estimate will inevitably now be much higher
:56:50. > :56:52.because of inflation? No, we have published the Transport for London
:56:53. > :56:57.commissioner how we are going to pay for the first two years of Transport
:56:58. > :57:00.for London freezes. When the business plan is published shortly,
:57:01. > :57:05.we will be setting out how the freeze will be paid for. And
:57:06. > :57:11.Transport for London was good but floppy. That is why we have brought
:57:12. > :57:16.in efficiencies, to make sure we bid for work overseas and get people to
:57:17. > :57:20.pay for it. To make sure we haven't got people earning huge salaries
:57:21. > :57:24.which are not justifiable, to reduce the number of consultants, but also
:57:25. > :57:29.encourage more people to use public transport. Can I ask about policing.
:57:30. > :57:32.We heard about knife crime, but what you say about the Metropolitan
:57:33. > :57:40.Police after we have had operation Midland which has been the cause of
:57:41. > :57:45.some controversy, we have at the -- we have had the conviction of a
:57:46. > :57:48.paedophile, we have had the report from Her Majesty 's Inspectorate
:57:49. > :57:54.about child protection safeguarding, one of the worst ever produced, is
:57:55. > :57:57.the Met in crisis? I want to start by saying each day we should
:57:58. > :58:01.recognise tens of thousands of police officers go to work and risk
:58:02. > :58:07.their lives to keep's save so one of the first things I did was to order
:58:08. > :58:13.a review into whether we are safe in relation to a terror incident. Can
:58:14. > :58:17.we focus on this whole issue... If you are police officer, you are
:58:18. > :58:21.responsible for also ensuring children are safe, victims are safe,
:58:22. > :58:30.and the other things you talked about. We have gone through a
:58:31. > :58:39.difficult time in relation to be Enriques report, the HMIC report on
:58:40. > :58:44.Friday... Is there a big need to restore confidence here? And how
:58:45. > :58:47.will you do that? That's one of the reasons I've already spoken to the
:58:48. > :58:54.Home Secretary. We've published an action plan to address the
:58:55. > :59:00.inefficiencies identified, addressing the issues recognised by
:59:01. > :59:09.Henriques. The easiest thing for me to do is blame the previous mayor,
:59:10. > :59:12.and forget about it but I have an action plan to address it and that's
:59:13. > :59:16.why it's important the Home Secretary and I appoint a new
:59:17. > :59:19.commissioner, in March hopefully, who will understand the challenges
:59:20. > :59:23.of being the Met Police Commissioner but also recognises what a privilege
:59:24. > :59:26.it is to be the commissioner of the best police service in the world,
:59:27. > :59:30.leading police officers who worked their socks off every day. Air
:59:31. > :59:39.quality, banned diesel cars, that's the answer. Thanks for the B from
:59:40. > :59:51.Simon by the way. I'm going to make sure airing London isn't a killer in
:59:52. > :59:54.-- any more. That is why I have got bold and ambitious plans which are
:59:55. > :59:58.the envy of cities around the world in relation to the ultralow
:59:59. > :00:04.emissions zone, bringing it in in the New Year, widening it. From next
:00:05. > :00:11.year, the most polluting vehicle pay an extra ?10 on the congestion
:00:12. > :00:15.charge. Only buying electric, hybrid or hydrogen buses from 2018 but I
:00:16. > :00:19.cannot do it by myself and the Government needs to help me in
:00:20. > :00:26.relation to a national diesel strategy. We need to make sure the
:00:27. > :00:32.Government does more in relation to the judgment from the court. You
:00:33. > :00:38.have got 30 seconds to say, in one year's time what will have mattered
:00:39. > :00:41.what you have achieved? Progress on building genuinely affordable homes.
:00:42. > :00:46.I'm hoping by next year the budget will be even more generous in
:00:47. > :00:50.relation to devolution. We want more devolution next year, but also
:00:51. > :00:55.Brexit. We have got to make sure Londoners don't lose out when the
:00:56. > :00:59.article 15 noticed this served. We have got to make sure London is
:01:00. > :01:05.open. Thank you. Andrew, back to you.
:01:06. > :01:07.Is Theresa May serious about curbing executive pay?
:01:08. > :01:11.Who will be crowned Nigel Farage's successor as Ukip leader?
:01:12. > :01:16.And can the Lib Dems pull off a by-election upset in Richmond?
:01:17. > :01:41.So,,, on pay talk about the executive of what executives get
:01:42. > :01:43.compared to the average worker in the company, giving shareholders
:01:44. > :01:47.real power to vote down pay rises if they don't like them, which is
:01:48. > :01:56.pretty much what Ed Miliband proposed in the general election in
:01:57. > :02:00.2015. Is she serious about this? She is very serious, and the Tory party
:02:01. > :02:03.probably does owe Ed Miliband an apology for trashing his ideas and
:02:04. > :02:08.2015 and then putting them all up for votes in November 20 16. She is
:02:09. > :02:11.very serious, and this all comes back to her desperate fear that
:02:12. > :02:18.unless capitalism reforms itself and becomes more acceptable to the just
:02:19. > :02:21.about managing or even 78% of the country who are not earning vast
:02:22. > :02:26.wealth at anywhere near the figures you see in the City, serious things
:02:27. > :02:30.will happen and the political sense of trust will implode. She has
:02:31. > :02:34.already been bartered down by her own Cabinet on this. She wanted to
:02:35. > :02:41.go further and make workers on the board mandatory. They have managed
:02:42. > :02:45.to stop that. What will her fallback position be on workers on the board
:02:46. > :02:52.if she is not able to get it into some claw? We would like to have
:02:53. > :02:57.workers on the board, but whatever they do on the board there will have
:02:58. > :03:01.no voting powers on the board. When you look at what was leaked out over
:03:02. > :03:06.the weekend, that we should know the ratio of the top to the average and
:03:07. > :03:11.that shareholders who own the company should determine, in the
:03:12. > :03:16.end, the highest-paid salaries, you kind of think, what could the
:03:17. > :03:22.possible objection be to any of that? Two things. One, I agree with
:03:23. > :03:28.Tom that she is deadly serious about this agenda and it comes under the
:03:29. > :03:31.banner, that sentence in the party conference speech about "It's time
:03:32. > :03:37.to focus on the good that government can do". She is by instinct more of
:03:38. > :03:41.an interventionist than Cameron and Osborne. But she is incredibly
:03:42. > :03:45.cautious, whether it is through the internal constraints of opposition
:03:46. > :03:52.within Cabinet, or her own small C Conservative caution in implementing
:03:53. > :03:55.this stuff. Part of the problem is the practicalities. George Osborne
:03:56. > :03:58.commission will Hutton to do a report which came out with similar
:03:59. > :04:03.proposals, which were never implemented. It is quite hard to
:04:04. > :04:08.enforce. It will antagonise business leaders when she's to woo them again
:04:09. > :04:13.in this Brexit furore. So there are problems with it. And judging by
:04:14. > :04:17.what has happened so far, my guess is that the aim will be genuinely
:04:18. > :04:20.bold and interesting, and the implementation incredibly cautious.
:04:21. > :04:27.Does it matter if she annoys some business leaders? Isn't that part of
:04:28. > :04:31.her brand? Will there be problems on the Tory backbenches with it? I
:04:32. > :04:34.think there will be and I think it does matter at this sensitive time
:04:35. > :04:40.for when we are positioning ourselves as a country and whether
:04:41. > :04:42.we are going to brand ourselves as a great city of business, implementing
:04:43. > :04:47.quite interventionist policies. Any suggestion that the government can
:04:48. > :04:51.control how much the top earners get, I think would be received in a
:04:52. > :04:54.hostile way. What would be wrong with the shareholders, who own the
:04:55. > :04:59.company, determining the pay of the higher hands, the executives?
:05:00. > :05:02.Morally, you can absolutely make that argument but to business
:05:03. > :05:08.leaders, they will not like it. Ultimately, this will not come down
:05:09. > :05:11.to more than a row of beans. There was a huge debate about whether
:05:12. > :05:17.there should be quotas of women on boards. In the end, that never
:05:18. > :05:22.happened. All we get is figures. But quotas of women, for which there is
:05:23. > :05:26.a case and a case against too, that was a government mandate. This is
:05:27. > :05:29.not, this is simply empowering shareholders who own the company to
:05:30. > :05:38.determine the pay of the people they hire. There is a strong moral
:05:39. > :05:43.argument for it. Strong economic argument. But the Tory backbenchers
:05:44. > :05:46.will not like this. The downside is that this is a world where companies
:05:47. > :05:50.are thinking about upping sticks to Europe. No, they say they are
:05:51. > :05:58.thinking of that. Not one has done it yet. Others have made massive
:05:59. > :06:03.investments in this country. But is it not an incentive for those making
:06:04. > :06:10.these threats to actually do it? In Europe, bankers' pay is now mandated
:06:11. > :06:14.by Brussels. It is a vivid way of showing you are addressing the issue
:06:15. > :06:23.of inequality. I think she will go with it, but let's move on to Ukip.
:06:24. > :06:27.I think we will get the result tomorrow. There are the top three
:06:28. > :06:33.candidates. Paul Nuttall, Suzanne Evans and on my right, John Reid
:06:34. > :06:39.Evans. One of them will be the next leader. Who is going to win? It is
:06:40. > :06:43.widely predicted to be Paul Nuttall and is probably the outcome that the
:06:44. > :06:46.Labour Party fears most. Paul Nuttall is a very effective
:06:47. > :06:52.communicator. He is not a household name, far from it, but people will
:06:53. > :06:57.begin to learn more about him and find that he is actually quite a
:06:58. > :07:03.strong leader. Can people Ukip together again after this shambolic
:07:04. > :07:09.period since the referendum? If anyone can, he can. And his brand of
:07:10. > :07:15.working collar, Northern Ukip is the thing that will work for them. Do
:07:16. > :07:19.you think he is the favourite? It would be amazing if he doesn't win.
:07:20. > :07:24.His greatest problem will be getting Nigel Farage off his back. He is
:07:25. > :07:31.going on a speaking tour of North America. A long speaking tour. Ukip
:07:32. > :07:35.won this EU referendum. They had the chance to hoover up these
:07:36. > :07:39.discontented Labour voters in the north, and all he has done is
:07:40. > :07:43.associated with Ukip with Farage. But Nigel Farage is fed up of Ukip
:07:44. > :07:49.and will be glad to be hands of it. The bigger problem is money. If it
:07:50. > :07:54.is Paul Nuttall, and we don't know the results yet, but he is the
:07:55. > :07:58.favourite, if it is him, I would suggest that that is the result
:07:59. > :08:02.Labour is frightened of most. To be honest, I think they are frightened
:08:03. > :08:07.of Ukip whatever the result. Possibly with good cause. The reason
:08:08. > :08:11.I qualify that is that what you call a shambles over the summer has been
:08:12. > :08:17.something that goes beyond Monty Python in its absurdity and madness.
:08:18. > :08:23.That calls into question whether it can function as a political party
:08:24. > :08:29.when you have what has gone on. The number of leaders itself has been an
:08:30. > :08:34.act of madness. In a context which should be fantastic for them. They
:08:35. > :08:38.have won a referendum. There is a debate about what form Brexit should
:08:39. > :08:43.take, it is a dream for them, and they have gone bonkers. If he can
:08:44. > :08:45.turn it around, I agree that he is a powerful media communicator, and
:08:46. > :08:51.then it is a threat to Labour. But he has got to show that first.
:08:52. > :08:56.Indeed. The by-election in Richmond in south-west London, called by Zac
:08:57. > :09:00.Goldsmith over Heathrow. Has it turned out to be a by-election about
:09:01. > :09:05.Heathrow, or has it turned into a by-election, which is what the Lib
:09:06. > :09:09.Dems wanted, about Brexit? We will know on Thursday. If the Lib Dems
:09:10. > :09:13.win, they will turn it into an EU referendum. It seems incredibly
:09:14. > :09:18.close now. The Lib Dems are swamping Richmond. They had 1000 activists
:09:19. > :09:22.there yesterday. That is getting on for 100th of the population of the
:09:23. > :09:27.place! If the Lib Dems don't manage to win on Thursday and don't manage
:09:28. > :09:30.to turn it into an EU referendum despite all their efforts, it will
:09:31. > :09:39.probably be a disaster for the party. What do you hear, Isabel? I
:09:40. > :09:43.hear that the Lib Dems have absolutely swamped the constituency,
:09:44. > :09:48.but this may backfire. I saw a bit of this myself, living in Witney,
:09:49. > :09:54.when the Lib Dems also swamped and people began to get fed up of their
:09:55. > :09:57.aggressive tactics. I understand that Zac Goldsmith is cautiously
:09:58. > :10:06.optimistic that he will pull this one off. Quick stab at the result? I
:10:07. > :10:11.don't know. But we are entering a period when by-elections are
:10:12. > :10:15.acquiring significant again. If the Lib Dems were to make a game, it
:10:16. > :10:21.would breathe life into that near moribund party like nothing else.
:10:22. > :10:26.Similarly, other by-elections in this shapeless political world we
:10:27. > :10:29.are in are going to become significant. We don't know if we are
:10:30. > :10:32.covering it live on Thursday night yet because we have to find at the
:10:33. > :10:39.time they are going to declare. Richmond are quite late in
:10:40. > :10:44.declaring, but if it is in the early hours, that is fine. If it is on
:10:45. > :10:47.breakfast television, they be not. I want to show you this. Michael Gove
:10:48. > :10:53.was on the Andrew Marr Show this morning. In the now notorious
:10:54. > :10:57.comment that I made, I was actually cut off in midstream, as politicians
:10:58. > :11:02.often. The point I made was not that all experts are that is nonsense.
:11:03. > :11:10.Expert engineers, doctors and physicists are not wrong. But there
:11:11. > :11:12.is a subclass of experts, particularly social scientists, who
:11:13. > :11:17.have to reflect on some of the mistakes they have made. And the
:11:18. > :11:21.recession, which was predicted that we would have if we voted to leave,
:11:22. > :11:27.has gone like a puff of smoke. So economic experts, he talks about.
:11:28. > :11:31.The Chancellor has based all of his forward predictions in this Autumn
:11:32. > :11:38.Statement on the economic expert forecasters. The Office for Budget
:11:39. > :11:43.Responsibility has said it is 50-50, which is the toss of a coin. But
:11:44. > :11:49.what was he supposed to do? You would ideally have to have a Budget
:11:50. > :11:57.that had several sets of scenarios, and that is impossible. Crystal ball
:11:58. > :12:00.territory. But you do wonder if governments are right to do so much
:12:01. > :12:05.of their fiscal projections on the basis of forecasts which turn out to
:12:06. > :12:09.be wrong. They have nothing else to go on. The Treasury forecast is to
:12:10. > :12:14.be wrong. No doubt the OBR forecast will prove not to be exact. As you
:12:15. > :12:18.say, they admitted that they are navigating through fog at the
:12:19. > :12:22.moment. But he also added that it was fog caused by Brexit. So Brexit,
:12:23. > :12:30.even if you accept that these forecasts might be wrong, is causing
:12:31. > :12:36.such a level of uncertainty. He put the figure at 60 billion. That could
:12:37. > :12:44.come to haunt him. He hasn't got a clue. He admitted it. He said,
:12:45. > :12:47.Parliament mandates me to come up with something, so I am going to
:12:48. > :12:53.give you a number. But I wouldn't trust it if I were you, he basically
:12:54. > :12:56.said. I agree with you. The man who borrowed 122 billion more off the
:12:57. > :12:59.back of a coin toss was Philip Hammond. It begs the question, what
:13:00. > :13:03.does that say about the confidence Philip Hammond has in his own
:13:04. > :13:10.government's renegotiation? Not a huge amount. I agree. Philip Hammond
:13:11. > :13:14.quoted the OBR figures. He basically said, this is uncertain and it looks
:13:15. > :13:21.bad, and on we go with it. It is a very interesting situation, he said.
:13:22. > :13:24.He was for Remain and he works in a department which regards it as a
:13:25. > :13:31.disaster, whatever everyone else thinks. I have just been told we are
:13:32. > :13:33.covering the by-election. We are part of the constitution.
:13:34. > :13:35.Jo Coburn will have more Daily Politics tomorrow
:13:36. > :13:39.And I'll be back here on BBC One next Sunday at 11.
:13:40. > :14:13.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:14:14. > :14:16.to signify the Africans who were here.
:14:17. > :14:44.The story of Henry VIII and his six wives