04/12/2016

:00:38. > :00:45.Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson accepts we might continue to pay EU

:00:46. > :00:48.budget contributions even after we leave, but says

:00:49. > :00:54.Tim Farron says his party's dramatic win in the Richmond Park by-election

:00:55. > :00:58.is a vote against a so-called "hard" Brexit.

:00:59. > :01:01.But do the Lib Dems really want any kind of Brexit at all?

:01:02. > :01:06.We speak to former party leader Nick Clegg.

:01:07. > :01:08.Ukip's new leader says he wants to "replace Labour".

:01:09. > :01:11.Some Labour MPs are jittery because of the party leadership's

:01:12. > :01:19.Shadow Home Secretary Diane Abbott joins us live.

:01:20. > :01:21.In London, we will be looking closely at that by-election

:01:22. > :01:34.Why did the people of Richmond Park vote the way they did?

:01:35. > :01:39.And with me - as always - three fully paid-up members

:01:40. > :01:41.of the metropolitan elite - although which metropolis,

:01:42. > :01:45.Toby Young, Helen Lewis and Tom Newton Dunn, who'll be

:01:46. > :01:50.So, the Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson, has accepted that

:01:51. > :01:56.Britain might pay something into the EU budget after Brexit,

:01:57. > :01:59.though he says there is no reason why they should be too onerous.

:02:00. > :02:01.That was after the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU,

:02:02. > :02:07.David Davis, suggested earlier this week that Britain would indeed

:02:08. > :02:11.consider paying for access to EU markets after Brexit.

:02:12. > :02:14.Here is what Mr Johnson said on the Marr Show earlier.

:02:15. > :02:16.A lot of people will be watching, thinking -

:02:17. > :02:20.hold on a second, after Brexit, are we are going to be paying large

:02:21. > :02:22.amounts of money to the EU, in return for access to markets?

:02:23. > :02:25.Well, I've given you an indication of the kind of payments that

:02:26. > :02:33.My own view is, I see no reason why those payments should be large.

:02:34. > :02:36.And as I say, I do see a big opportunity for us to take the money

:02:37. > :02:47.that we're getting back and spend it on other priorities.

:02:48. > :02:54.Toby, the papers this morning, they are awash with the minutiae of

:02:55. > :02:59.Brexit, spinning whatever they have got depending on whether they are

:03:00. > :03:05.Remain or Leave. Is it not getting as close to ridiculous? It does feel

:03:06. > :03:10.a bit absurd and it is unfortunately the effect of the Government not

:03:11. > :03:14.announcing, not declaring what its Brexit strategy is going to be.

:03:15. > :03:18.Because the Dortmund has said it cannot do that without showing its

:03:19. > :03:22.hand in the forthcoming negotiations, it is difficult to go

:03:23. > :03:26.back on that -- the Government. I think we will see this fee per

:03:27. > :03:32.speculation for months if not years. The observer is leading with a

:03:33. > :03:37.couple of die-hard Remain Tories, not happy, surprise, surprise! The

:03:38. > :03:41.Telegraph, in Leave paper, saying the Italian Ambassador did not say

:03:42. > :03:47.this about Boris Johnson this week. Sky News ran the story endlessly

:03:48. > :03:52.last week. But Toby is right, this sort of flotsam and gets in, the

:03:53. > :03:57.Government has itself to blame. Yes, and we have now got Queen of Brexit,

:03:58. > :04:05.dirty Brexit, white, grey, hard, soft. This is about Single Market

:04:06. > :04:10.and that is what this is about. No wait pays more per capita into the

:04:11. > :04:15.budget to access this European Economic Area and that is what we

:04:16. > :04:20.need more clarity about. Not more than we do but a lot. More per

:04:21. > :04:26.capita, I believe it is 79. It pays a what! . Boris Johnson said we do

:04:27. > :04:30.not want to pay, only a small amount. This is the bad news that

:04:31. > :04:35.would suggest, this is going to continue until the Government fills

:04:36. > :04:41.the vacuum, which means not this year. No, probably not next year

:04:42. > :04:44.either because we should not expect anything revolutionary from the

:04:45. > :04:48.Government when Theresa May does trigger Article 50. Maybe not even

:04:49. > :04:53.in 2018 because we will only know the shape of the deal and what we

:04:54. > :04:57.get in 2019. They will have the alpine strategic goals. No, I don't

:04:58. > :05:01.think they will do. They can keep going along with this line of the

:05:02. > :05:05.best possible trade deal and controlling immigration with maybe a

:05:06. > :05:11.couple more details of, we are prepared to consider contributions.

:05:12. > :05:14.And on that, I would suggest the BBC is misreporting Boris Johnson. I did

:05:15. > :05:19.not hear him at any stage this morning say he is happy with budget

:05:20. > :05:23.contributions, he is merely happy to contribute a small schemes like

:05:24. > :05:27.Rasmus. Contributing to the budget is different, it is paying billions

:05:28. > :05:32.potentially into a pool of money which if you are out of the EU, you

:05:33. > :05:36.have even less control. David Davis was talking of a bit more than that

:05:37. > :05:39.but it wasn't specified. It is a red flag for a lot of people who thought

:05:40. > :05:48.there would be more money to spend this country if we left the EU. The

:05:49. > :05:54.famous figure on the bus. The more they spend in other ways, the less

:05:55. > :05:58.there will be. That is true, but the Helen is right. It looks as though

:05:59. > :06:02.we are beginning to glimpse a government strategy and they are

:06:03. > :06:07.willing to pay to access the Single Market and a negotiation will partly

:06:08. > :06:11.be about how much. One aspect often overlooked is the Article 50

:06:12. > :06:15.negotiation is separate from a free trade negotiation. They often get

:06:16. > :06:19.run together and we do not know if the negotiations towards agreeing a

:06:20. > :06:23.free trade agreement can begin at the same time as the Article 50

:06:24. > :06:39.negotiations or whether they have to wait until the Article 50

:06:40. > :06:42.deal has been concluded before embarking on the free trade

:06:43. > :06:44.negotiation. They have to do that, there will be speculation about what

:06:45. > :06:48.that looks like 45, maybe ten years. I understand they intend to do it in

:06:49. > :06:49.parallel but do not take that to the bank! That is a caveat otherwise she

:06:50. > :06:50.would be criticising us again! After a devastating

:06:51. > :06:52.general election, you'd be forgiven for thinking

:06:53. > :06:54.that the Liberal Democrats were But earlier this week,

:06:55. > :06:59.the party won a stunning by-election victory in Richmond Park,

:07:00. > :07:01.overturning Zac Goldsmith's 23,000 The new MP, Sarah Olney,

:07:02. > :07:09.has even gone as far as to suggest that the result paved the way

:07:10. > :07:11.for Parliament to "override" Here she is talking

:07:12. > :07:16.to reporters after her victory. Are you still going to vote

:07:17. > :07:19.against Article 50, and isn't that flying in the face of what the rest

:07:20. > :07:26.of the country voted That's the commitment

:07:27. > :07:28.I made in my campaign. My by-election victory means I have

:07:29. > :07:30.got a personal mandate from the voters of Richmond Park

:07:31. > :07:33.that that is what A third of Tory Leavers

:07:34. > :07:36.voted Liberal Democrat yesterday because they say,

:07:37. > :07:38.hang about, this is not what we voted for, Theresa May

:07:39. > :07:41.is taking a Ukip-ish slant They want a country that is open,

:07:42. > :07:47.tolerant and united. It is not 48 versus 52,

:07:48. > :07:50.it's about the country coming together behind a moderate,

:07:51. > :07:51.progressive opposition I'm joined now by the former leader

:07:52. > :07:56.of the Liberal Democrats and former Deputy Prime Minister,

:07:57. > :07:57.Nick Clegg. He is now the party's

:07:58. > :08:07.Brexit spokesman. Welcome back to the programme. Tim

:08:08. > :08:13.Farron says Richmond is a rejection of Brexit and the 2015 General

:08:14. > :08:17.Election, even Donald Trump, which will be news to America. In what way

:08:18. > :08:23.does 20,000 people voting for the Lib Dems in one of the most affluent

:08:24. > :08:27.anti-Brexit constituencies in the country mean any of that? I think

:08:28. > :08:35.when these by-elections happen, people quite rightly both for and

:08:36. > :08:39.against say all sorts of things which either turn out or not to be

:08:40. > :08:42.true. I think clearly you cannot extrapolate from one part of

:08:43. > :08:47.south-west London to the rest of the country. I heard the result in South

:08:48. > :08:50.West Sheffield, very different in south-west London. Having spent a

:08:51. > :08:54.lot of time in the Richmond campaign, the most significant thing

:08:55. > :08:58.was not about the details of Article 50 and Single Market, it was a very

:08:59. > :09:02.strong feeling among those kind of people, and there are millions

:09:03. > :09:12.around the country, who feel that because they disagreed with the

:09:13. > :09:14.outcome on June 23rd, they are being delegitimised and no longer entitled

:09:15. > :09:17.to hold those views, they are shouted down as moaners and people

:09:18. > :09:19.living in denial. It is always emotion driving these things more

:09:20. > :09:24.than cerebral ideas. It was that emotion that came through in the

:09:25. > :09:27.by-election. Next week, we have a by-election in a place that voted

:09:28. > :09:32.60% to leave and I would suggest your party will not win that is, a

:09:33. > :09:36.Brexit supporter will win that comfortably. So a big Remain

:09:37. > :09:42.constituency votes to remain and a big Leave votes to leave. Ukip might

:09:43. > :09:47.win and if that happens, it might reveal that as politics becomes more

:09:48. > :09:52.defined buying Brexit, it is the parties with the clearest positions,

:09:53. > :09:56.in this case Ukip and the Liberal Democrats, who communicate more

:09:57. > :10:00.clearly with the public. And the mainstream parties are increasingly

:10:01. > :10:04.divided and opaque in what they really mean. We will see what

:10:05. > :10:08.happens. Let's look at how clear cut your party's position is. Sarah

:10:09. > :10:14.Olney, your new MP for Richmond, will vote against triggering Article

:10:15. > :10:18.50, what may, is that Liberal Democrat policy? No, that is her

:10:19. > :10:21.personal mandate as the clip shows that is has a mandate she feels she

:10:22. > :10:26.has received because that is the basis upon which she put herself

:10:27. > :10:29.forward to the people of Richmond. You will not vote against Article

:10:30. > :10:35.50? There are certain cases in which I would. If you got a second

:10:36. > :10:39.referendum, you would not? If I got a second and the Government would

:10:40. > :10:42.keep us in the Single Market, I would not. You brought this idea of

:10:43. > :10:49.a second referendum on the deal itself. Most EU leaders do not want

:10:50. > :10:52.us to leave and they are the ones we negotiate with. If they know there

:10:53. > :10:58.is a vote on the terms, surely they have a massive incentive to give the

:10:59. > :11:03.worst possible deal? This goes back to the origins of the debate prior

:11:04. > :11:09.to the vote on June 23rd. What is haunting the nation is the fact that

:11:10. > :11:14.the Brexit backers did not spell out what they meant. You will no doubt

:11:15. > :11:18.quote this and that but there is no manifesto from Nigel Farage, Michael

:11:19. > :11:21.Gove and Boris Johnson, United and coherent, not talking about

:11:22. > :11:27.television clips watched by fractions of the electorate... On

:11:28. > :11:32.crucial things like whether we stay in the Single Market, absolutely

:11:33. > :11:36.not. The official Leave campaign, the framework document widely

:11:37. > :11:39.covered by the media said, we want the supremacy of EU law and the

:11:40. > :11:45.European Court of jurisdiction the end, we want budget contributions to

:11:46. > :11:49.end, we want the EU's control over UK borders the end and we want the

:11:50. > :11:54.UK to leave the common commercial policy. A way of describing the

:11:55. > :11:59.Single Market. No, it is the Customs Union. The only person in British

:12:00. > :12:02.politics... Plenty of leaders of the Leave campaign said they wanted to

:12:03. > :12:06.leave the Single Market. The common commercial policy is not the Single

:12:07. > :12:10.Market. They talk about the Single Market, they want to leave the

:12:11. > :12:15.Customs Union as well. They want to leave the Single Market. We should

:12:16. > :12:19.be really clear, why is it in that case that ministers from this Brexit

:12:20. > :12:22.government do not come before Parliament now to say we stick to

:12:23. > :12:27.what we apparently said so clearly? They did not, it was much more

:12:28. > :12:31.opaque. We will rule out the Norway option. Let's look at what the

:12:32. > :12:35.leaders of your side of the campaign and the leaders of the Leave

:12:36. > :12:39.campaign said when asked about the Single Market. Can we see that now?

:12:40. > :12:43.The British public would be voting if we leave to leave the EU and

:12:44. > :12:47.still be the Single Market. Should we come out of the Single Market? I

:12:48. > :12:51.think that almost certainly would be the case, yes. Do you want is to

:12:52. > :12:56.stay inside the Single Market, yes or no? No, we should be outside the

:12:57. > :13:00.Single Market. I said to Michael Gove, after Brexit, will we be

:13:01. > :13:05.inside the Single Market, and he said no. He was right. We would be

:13:06. > :13:09.out of the Single Market, that is the reality, Britain would be

:13:10. > :13:12.quitting. Quitting the Single Market.

:13:13. > :13:18.Where was the manifesto? Where was the document? Where was the

:13:19. > :13:22.manifesto from the key Brexiteers, Johnson, Gove and Farrage, saying,

:13:23. > :13:26.British people, this is what will happen if you read the European

:13:27. > :13:30.Union. It was not there because it is not as if we were not warned.

:13:31. > :13:34.Dominik Commons, apparently the intellectual architect of the

:13:35. > :13:39.campaign, said it is very important we do not say what we mean. People

:13:40. > :13:43.watching this programme will see clearly what they said. Sorry to

:13:44. > :13:47.break this to you but what someone says to you and mumbles in admission

:13:48. > :13:50.on the cross questioning from you in a television studio watched by a

:13:51. > :13:55.fraction of the Electric is not the same as putting me for the British

:13:56. > :13:57.people a clear plan. Wear with a policy documents? It is very

:13:58. > :14:02.important because you have gone round in circles on this for weeks.

:14:03. > :14:05.Let me explain... I am trying to get you to understand reading people in

:14:06. > :14:10.the campaign made it clear we would leave the Single Market as members.

:14:11. > :14:17.Why did David Steve said after the referendum, not even before, in a

:14:18. > :14:21.post on this famous essay before he became Brexit Secretary, why did he

:14:22. > :14:25.say he bought Single Market arrangement should continue? Why did

:14:26. > :14:28.Greg Clark, a Minister when negotiating with Nissan, say, we are

:14:29. > :14:32.pursuing not only trade arrangements with the rest of the European Union

:14:33. > :14:37.free of tariffs, free of bureaucratic impediments. You know

:14:38. > :14:40.as well as I do that you cannot have tried very bureaucratic impediments

:14:41. > :14:44.other than being a member of the Single Market.

:14:45. > :14:49.shutter If the second referendum also important, why didn't you

:14:50. > :14:53.mention it? We were fighting to stay in. But you never said that if you

:14:54. > :14:55.lost there would have to be a referendum on the deal itself? Let's

:14:56. > :14:57.look at you said. It's quite, quite different

:14:58. > :14:59.to any other kind of vote It's not like a general election,

:15:00. > :15:06.however important they seem, that binds the hands of the next

:15:07. > :15:10.Parliament, for the next five years, or set expectations

:15:11. > :15:26.about what a government will do. Once in a generation. It is clear

:15:27. > :15:31.now that was only a few won. If you lost, you wanted a second? This is

:15:32. > :15:35.getting us nowhere. That is entirely consistent with saying that since

:15:36. > :15:38.the victorious side, the Brexiteers, did not spell out to the British

:15:39. > :15:42.public what Brexit means, and we still don't know what it means, we

:15:43. > :15:46.still have absolutely no notion if they want to pay contributions or

:15:47. > :15:50.not, if they want to be part of foreign policy arrangements or

:15:51. > :15:54.not... Why didn't you say that at the time? That was the 27th of

:15:55. > :15:58.April, one clip from the wider debate. We, as the Liberal

:15:59. > :16:01.Democrats, are quite logically saying, since the victors in the

:16:02. > :16:04.referendum, yes, they have a mandate to pull out of the European Union,

:16:05. > :16:08.they did not have a mandate how to do it because they did not spell it

:16:09. > :16:12.out to the British people. It is not a second referendum. It is the first

:16:13. > :16:15.referendum, or it would be the first referendum on the terms of

:16:16. > :16:20.departure. The terms of the new re-engagement with the rest of the

:16:21. > :16:25.union. The position on soft Brexit, that we would remain a member of the

:16:26. > :16:28.single market, right? Which means that we would accept free movement

:16:29. > :16:35.of people, that goes with membership? It is a bit more

:16:36. > :16:39.complicated than that, as you know. My own view is that there is plenty

:16:40. > :16:42.of scope, if this Government was intelligent about it, to say to

:16:43. > :16:46.other European member states, look, it is now time to grant to Britain,

:16:47. > :16:54.in return for continued membership of the single market, the least

:16:55. > :17:04.economically destructive form of Brexit, granted to Britain a Europe

:17:05. > :17:08.wide migration frees. We could get that? The government EU doesn't

:17:09. > :17:13.appear to be trying. At the moment, membership of the single market

:17:14. > :17:19.means free movement. Norway, for instance... Norway has free

:17:20. > :17:23.movement, it is even in Schengen. They have a legal ability to

:17:24. > :17:28.constrain free movement. Which they haven't done. But it is their

:17:29. > :17:31.choice, it is an entitlement. We would remain subject to the

:17:32. > :17:38.jurisdiction of the European Court? Here is the issue with the single

:17:39. > :17:41.market, I hear constantly, politicians and commentators, saying

:17:42. > :17:45.it is just a day with tariffs. The most important thing, as identified

:17:46. > :17:51.by Margaret Thatcher, is the body of rules. And that would be the

:17:52. > :17:58.European Court? Well, if you really want to get into a... It follows the

:17:59. > :18:04.case law. They have more discretion. They have never gone against ECJ

:18:05. > :18:09.law? It would have to be the European Court? Whether you have a

:18:10. > :18:13.direct Amaq one ruling, or another body, call is Mary all Paul eyecare,

:18:14. > :18:23.if you want to trade into a single market of rules... Call it maryjane,

:18:24. > :18:27.for all I care. You would abide by those rules. If we were to trade

:18:28. > :18:33.inside the single market, we would do so anyway. You would stay in the

:18:34. > :18:41.customs union? I would. I want to add up what this means. We remain

:18:42. > :18:46.single market membership, we continue with EU contributions, free

:18:47. > :18:49.movement of people, said the jurisdiction of the European Court,

:18:50. > :18:53.we remain in a customs union, so we can't do most of our own trade

:18:54. > :19:01.deals. You know what that is called? Membership of the EU. Know it is

:19:02. > :19:06.not. There are a number of countries in the EEA, which do make financial

:19:07. > :19:10.contributions. They have the ability for people to come in and out of the

:19:11. > :19:15.European Union. Of course, I accept, for the hardest, hardline

:19:16. > :19:21.Brexiteers... But this has always been the dilemma as a country. What

:19:22. > :19:24.is right for the prosperity of future generations is not

:19:25. > :19:27.politically convenient for the Conservative Party, what is

:19:28. > :19:30.politically convenient to them is economically self harming. What my

:19:31. > :19:35.party chooses is the least economically self harming future for

:19:36. > :19:40.our children. Given that you say you accept the result, when you add up

:19:41. > :19:47.everything that you want to happen, it is clear that you don't. You want

:19:48. > :19:51.an arrangement of soft Brexit, very little different from the status

:19:52. > :19:54.quo. You want a second referendum that would incentivise Europeans to

:19:55. > :19:59.give such a bad deal that we would vote against it, and you would

:20:00. > :20:04.encourage that? To somehow claim that the status Norway and other EEA

:20:05. > :20:07.countries have is equivalent to membership is nonsense. They have a

:20:08. > :20:13.common agricultural policy which is their own. You described Norway as

:20:14. > :20:16.powerless and voiceless. But that is not my problem, that is the problem

:20:17. > :20:20.of the Brexiteers promising, as you know, to have their cake and eat it.

:20:21. > :20:28.They have won. I am now in opposition. With victory should come

:20:29. > :20:34.clarity, responsibility and a duty to the country not to your own

:20:35. > :20:39.party. These are the ones that are hoisted by their own petard. They

:20:40. > :20:43.will claim they have an economic utopia by pulling out all the

:20:44. > :20:46.largest single market, a single market we created under Margaret

:20:47. > :20:51.Thatcher. It is not my problem that they cannot regard the Leeds resolve

:20:52. > :20:54.their own dilemma that having access to the British manufactured single

:20:55. > :20:59.market does, in one way or another, have to abide by the rules. That is

:21:00. > :21:02.not my problem, it is theirs. Your party is called the Liberal

:21:03. > :21:09.Democrats. Many people watching this will think maybe it is time for a

:21:10. > :21:14.rebrand? Just drop the Democrat bit. I don't know what you are driving

:21:15. > :21:20.at? You seem to want to fly in the face of the Democratic vote. We are

:21:21. > :21:29.saying there are choices in how we leave. Yes, some compromises, but it

:21:30. > :21:32.safeguards the safety, the clean environment, the jobs and prosperity

:21:33. > :21:37.of our children and grandchildren. If it comes to the point that

:21:38. > :21:41.anybody who suggests we put our country before the narrow lanes of

:21:42. > :21:43.Brexiteers is shouted down, we have come to a very sorry place. Thank

:21:44. > :21:45.you for joining us. Ukip's new leader, Paul Nuttall,

:21:46. > :21:48.says his party can gain at least ten And he hopes to do it at the expense

:21:49. > :21:53.of Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party, which he says doesn't represent

:21:54. > :21:55.working people anymore. Some Labour MPs, particularly those

:21:56. > :21:57.in working-class Northern seats, Ellie Price has been

:21:58. > :22:04.to Barnsley to investigate. I want to replace the Labour Party

:22:05. > :22:07.and make Ukip the patriotic Ukip says it will take the fight

:22:08. > :22:16.to Labour in its very heartland, places like the north of England,

:22:17. > :22:19.places like here in Barnsley, where 70% of people voted

:22:20. > :22:21.for Brexit and where, in the last general election,

:22:22. > :22:24.Ukip came a strong second in two It is surely in the back

:22:25. > :22:38.of Dan Jarvis's mind. He has been the Labour

:22:39. > :22:41.MP here since 2011. Do you worry that they're going

:22:42. > :22:44.to vote Ukip at the next election? We should not be complacent

:22:45. > :22:47.about the fact that a resurgent Ukip could provide a significant

:22:48. > :22:50.challenge for us and we have to make The big issue here is immigration,

:22:51. > :22:56.in a town that he says He is worried Labour doesn't

:22:57. > :23:00.currently have the answers. We are not getting it

:23:01. > :23:05.quite right just yet, because we haven't demonstrated

:23:06. > :23:07.to the public that we I don't think we were able to do

:23:08. > :23:11.that in the previous parliament, and I think there is still

:23:12. > :23:14.a specific concern that people look at us and think we don't take it

:23:15. > :23:18.as seriously as they take it, because we can't ever afford to go

:23:19. > :23:20.into a general election with the public thinking we don't

:23:21. > :23:23.take the issue of Diane Abbott doesn't seem

:23:24. > :23:26.to think there should be I think if you're trying

:23:27. > :23:30.to achieve anything, it's useful to have a target,

:23:31. > :23:33.because it's quite a useful waymarker as to whether you

:23:34. > :23:34.are making progress. So, my own view is that there should

:23:35. > :23:38.be some sort of target. I think it's a bit early to say

:23:39. > :23:41.precisely what that should be, But my instinct is,

:23:42. > :23:47.if you want to demonstrate to the public that you take this

:23:48. > :23:50.very seriously, the notion that you should have some sort

:23:51. > :23:53.of target is the right one. But the plan is to park tanks

:23:54. > :23:57.on the lawns of places like this. Fresh from coming second in Ukip's

:23:58. > :23:59.recent leadership contest, she is now the chair of the party's

:24:00. > :24:02.Policy Committee. That's why we invited her to get

:24:03. > :24:05.a taste of what people A party that sticks

:24:06. > :24:14.for the working class people. I think they are standing

:24:15. > :24:16.for the beliefs of the people in the north of England more

:24:17. > :24:19.than the south of England. Her impromptu canvassing

:24:20. > :24:22.session here went well. But the challenge for

:24:23. > :24:25.the new leader, Paul Nuttall, will be to break the voting habits

:24:26. > :24:29.of generations of Labour supporters. With Paul Nuttall as our new leader,

:24:30. > :24:34.we have a real opportunity here. A Bootle man, Liverpool,

:24:35. > :24:36.working-class accent, a guy who has grown up in the North

:24:37. > :24:40.of England and can talk to people in a different way

:24:41. > :24:45.than perhaps Nigel Farage did. If Nigel Farage couldn't do it

:24:46. > :24:49.why would Paul Nuttall, who just happens to have a northern

:24:50. > :24:52.accent, make any difference? I think with Nigel standing down

:24:53. > :25:00.as leader, I think also there will be more people

:25:01. > :25:03.in the front line of Ukip. I think, perhaps rightly,

:25:04. > :25:05.we have sometimes been criticised I think that is going to change very

:25:06. > :25:11.swiftly and very dramatically. Will you have a target

:25:12. > :25:16.list here in the North? I think we will be looking to target

:25:17. > :25:23.in particular those seats where there is a Labour member

:25:24. > :25:26.of Parliament who does not want to leave the European Union,

:25:27. > :25:28.but his constituents, or her constituents,

:25:29. > :25:30.want to get out. They have got to be our top

:25:31. > :25:34.priorities, particularly if we are looking at constituencies

:25:35. > :25:37.where we ran Labour a close second Ukip came second to Labour in 44

:25:38. > :25:40.constituencies in last That was before people in most

:25:41. > :25:44.of those areas voted this With that in mind, Paul Nuttall

:25:45. > :25:50.predicts his party will have There is no floor

:25:51. > :25:54.under the Labour vote. The connection between these voters

:25:55. > :25:56.and the Labour Party The party, for so long,

:25:57. > :26:01.has dismissed their concerns and not That prediction is,

:26:02. > :26:04.I think, realistic. I think that is probably a central

:26:05. > :26:07.case, but it could be much worse. Even if it is lower,

:26:08. > :26:10.it is still probably going to be a disaster for Labour,

:26:11. > :26:13.because a big chunk of working class That means the seat will go Tory,

:26:14. > :26:18.because the Tory vote stays solid, If voters here have felt

:26:19. > :26:21.forgotten by Westminster, they may want to be careful

:26:22. > :26:23.what they wish for. Places like this will become

:26:24. > :26:26.a battle ground for two parties that I'm joined now by the Shadow Home

:26:27. > :26:39.Secretary, Diane Abbott. Welcome back to the programme. We

:26:40. > :26:43.had the new immigration statistics out this week. Let's look at the

:26:44. > :26:50.numbers on the screen. The numbers have never been higher. 650,000

:26:51. > :26:56.people came here, migrants, in the year, to June. Take away those that

:26:57. > :27:02.are leaving, it comes to a net figure of 330 5000. That level of

:27:03. > :27:05.immigration, too high, too low or about right? Any politician who

:27:06. > :27:18.thinks you can set targets for immigration has got a fool for an

:27:19. > :27:23.economic adviser. What the Labour Party is talking about is trying to

:27:24. > :27:30.bear down on the reasons immigrants come here. Without setting a target,

:27:31. > :27:34.is it too high or about right? Targets don't set a difference. I'm

:27:35. > :27:39.not asking you to set a target, I'm asking if that is about right or

:27:40. > :27:44.not? It reflects underlying economic conditions and we would like to

:27:45. > :27:48.adjust those. It reflects the underlying economic situation. We

:27:49. > :27:52.have to deal with that. Do you want to reduce immigration numbers? You

:27:53. > :28:00.can bear down on immigration. There are two main reasons why immigrants

:28:01. > :28:06.come here. The main one is to work. That is partly about the skills gap

:28:07. > :28:13.in the UK, partly about the fact that predatory employers use

:28:14. > :28:20.immigration to undercut British workers, black and white. How many

:28:21. > :28:23.immigrants are subject to predatory employers? How many are waiting for

:28:24. > :28:27.below the minimum wage? We don't know, because the whole point about

:28:28. > :28:31.them working for less than the minimum wage is that it is not

:28:32. > :28:34.properly documented. What we want to do is prosecute employers who pay

:28:35. > :28:39.below the minimum wage. The figures for prosecution or about seven. Many

:28:40. > :28:43.employers have been named and shamed and they have had to pay arrears to

:28:44. > :28:49.the people that were not getting the minimum wage and they have had to

:28:50. > :28:53.pay penalties, about ?3.5 million. It only covers about 10,000 people.

:28:54. > :28:57.We know that the number of illegal migrants here, we have no evidence

:28:58. > :29:01.that there are huge numbers below the minimum wage. Illegal is another

:29:02. > :29:04.matter. But you cannot show to me whether that would make a

:29:05. > :29:08.difference, because you don't know the numbers? Of course we don't know

:29:09. > :29:11.the numbers. As for the people that have been named and shamed, the fact

:29:12. > :29:18.they only cover a small number of people, that just shows how weak the

:29:19. > :29:24.policy is. What we would do is to strengthen the factories

:29:25. > :29:30.Inspectorate, we would ramp up penalties on people who are not...

:29:31. > :29:34.Prosecutions on people. They paid penalties and paid arrears. But you

:29:35. > :29:39.don't know by how much migration would reduce, even if there was full

:29:40. > :29:42.enforcement of the minimum wage. And a lot of these people are not

:29:43. > :29:45.migrants, they are people that were here. It is hard to see how much, if

:29:46. > :29:51.at all, that would reduce immigration numbers?

:29:52. > :29:55.Brexiteers The anxiety in constituencies like Bradford is the

:29:56. > :29:59.sense they are being undercut and losing job because of migrants and

:30:00. > :30:03.we would look to address that. He said at the last election that

:30:04. > :30:07.Labour's manifesto which pledged to bear down on immigration numbers

:30:08. > :30:11.were shameful. Why are you now advocating something you thought

:30:12. > :30:14.were shameful? What I thought was shameful was the immigration

:30:15. > :30:18.controls that did nothing for us and played very badly in some parts of

:30:19. > :30:27.the country. You are talking about your own form of control, to bed

:30:28. > :30:29.down is your phrase, to bed down on numbers means to control it. The

:30:30. > :30:31.current leadership is very clear that we want to stop the

:30:32. > :30:35.undercutting British workers and we want to stop the exploitation of

:30:36. > :30:40.immigrants. What I think is shameful is to play a game with

:30:41. > :30:43.anti-immigrant rhetoric. We have seen across the Atlantic where that

:30:44. > :30:48.leads to pursue. Donald Trump. Staying on the side of the Atlantic,

:30:49. > :30:52.you cannot tell me how many legal migrants are paid less than the

:30:53. > :30:56.minimum wage. He said the party policy was clear but we have had a

:30:57. > :30:58.number of statements from your party about policy. This is Jeremy

:30:59. > :31:25.Corbyn's spokesman... Which one is Labour policy? Our

:31:26. > :31:30.policy is fair rules and reasonable management of migration. Which one

:31:31. > :31:34.of these three is Labour policy? Jeremy Corbyn's spokesperson, we can

:31:35. > :31:38.discount that, Jeremy has never said anything like that. But he has been

:31:39. > :31:48.very clear we must not play politics with migration. We discount Jeremy

:31:49. > :31:50.Corbyn's spokesman? Yes. Emily Thornbury, is that the policy? Our

:31:51. > :31:56.policy is fair rules and reasonable management of migration and that is

:31:57. > :31:58.what she was saying. Clive Lewis, Shadow Business Secretary, proposes

:31:59. > :32:04.migrants should only be allowed to come here if they belong to a trade

:32:05. > :32:08.union is that your policy? He has gone back on that, you cannot insist

:32:09. > :32:13.that people during a union. But we should do everything we can to

:32:14. > :32:17.encourage people to join a union. They would not have to be a member

:32:18. > :32:21.to join? Clive Lewis is no longer saying that. Dan Jarvis, in the

:32:22. > :32:27.film, and other prominent Labour MP, says Labour should have a target to

:32:28. > :32:32.cut immigration can you don't agree? I am a former home Office civil

:32:33. > :32:37.servant and I can tell you targets never work, look at the humiliation

:32:38. > :32:41.of the Tories, immigration is as high as it has ever been. Targets

:32:42. > :32:45.are not the point, the point is to look at the underlying economic

:32:46. > :32:50.issues which bring migrants to our shores. But if you were to do that

:32:51. > :32:55.and do it successfully, what is the scale to cut the numbers? You cannot

:32:56. > :32:59.count illegal migrants and you cannot count employers who pay less

:33:00. > :33:05.than the minimum wage. Let me show you something you said at a fringe

:33:06. > :33:10.event of the Labour conference in Liverpool.

:33:11. > :33:14.It would be wrong to unnecessarily throwaway access to the Single

:33:15. > :33:20.Market in the name of controlling migration through ending single

:33:21. > :33:26.movement. Ending free movement. Because ending free movement has

:33:27. > :33:36.become a synonym for anti immigrant races and the Labour Party... --

:33:37. > :33:42.racism. The Labour Party should never be on the wrong side of that

:33:43. > :33:46.argument. Chuka Umunna, Rachel Greaves, Ed

:33:47. > :33:51.Balls, they have called to an end of free movement of Labour from the EU,

:33:52. > :33:56.they all guilty of anti-immigrant racism? I am aware of what they said

:33:57. > :34:01.and Keir Starmer and I went to Brussels last month and we spoke to

:34:02. > :34:04.a series of spokespeople, both for the Parliament and for the

:34:05. > :34:08.Commission on freedom of movement. And they were very clear that there

:34:09. > :34:13.will be no deal on freedom of movement. I did not ask about a

:34:14. > :34:17.deal, but if you are against free movement as these three Labour

:34:18. > :34:21.colleagues are, prominent colleagues, you have said to take

:34:22. > :34:25.that position is to be guilty of anti-immigrant racism. Is that what

:34:26. > :34:29.they are guilty of? I am not accusing them of that, I am saying

:34:30. > :34:34.they are not facing facts. You cannot have access to the Single

:34:35. > :34:38.Market without freedom of movement. You can have access, just not

:34:39. > :34:45.membership. Membership brings full freedom of movement, access does

:34:46. > :34:48.not. I spoke with Keir Starmer to every major European Commission

:34:49. > :34:53.spokesperson on this and they were clear there is no deal to be done on

:34:54. > :34:58.freedom of movement. And if we negotiated a deal which appeared to

:34:59. > :35:01.involve a condition of freedom of movement, the European Parliament

:35:02. > :35:06.simply would not vote for it. Canada has substantial access to the Single

:35:07. > :35:10.Market, it is not a member, but it has substantial access and there is

:35:11. > :35:14.no freedom of movement for Canada. I am telling you you can have any

:35:15. > :35:18.European spokesperson in the studio and ask them, can we have access

:35:19. > :35:24.without freedom of movement? They will tell you know. Why has Canada

:35:25. > :35:32.got a robust free trade movement agreement with the EU that does not

:35:33. > :35:34.involve freedom of movement? Why could Britain not have that as well?

:35:35. > :35:36.Because our geographical situation across the Channel from the European

:35:37. > :35:43.continent is very different from Canada. Whether people like it or

:35:44. > :35:50.not, it is not whether you or against freedom of movement or not,

:35:51. > :35:54.it is like the weather. If the UK of the Channel from continental Europe

:35:55. > :35:58.wants access to the Single Market, there has to be commensurate freedom

:35:59. > :36:03.of movement. Otherwise, the European Parliament will not vote for that

:36:04. > :36:06.deal. You understand the difference between access and membership? I

:36:07. > :36:09.understand we could not have membership without freedom of

:36:10. > :36:12.movement, I am puzzled as to why we could not have some degree of

:36:13. > :36:16.access, it would have to be negotiated, but some degree of

:36:17. > :36:20.access not involving free movement. There are about 30 countries around

:36:21. > :36:25.the world which have substantial access to the EU and not free

:36:26. > :36:29.movement. Europe is saying something different, you need to ask European

:36:30. > :36:33.spokespeople into the studio and ask them why they refuse to accept there

:36:34. > :36:41.can be a deal which involves no freedom of movement. If and when we

:36:42. > :36:51.leave the EU, what would Labour's policy be towards immigration from

:36:52. > :36:55.the EU? If and when we leave the EU, we would want fair rules and

:36:56. > :37:02.reasonable management. What would that mean in practice? For instance,

:37:03. > :37:05.we would prevent employers going to Europe to recruit directly for jobs

:37:06. > :37:11.here without making those jobs open to British people. But we do not

:37:12. > :37:15.know again how much that difference would make? You would have the

:37:16. > :37:19.freedom to have a policy, would you have a policy on immigration? The

:37:20. > :37:26.Labour Party has always had a policy. The EU. We do not have a

:37:27. > :37:31.policy because we do not have one, when free movement comes to an end,

:37:32. > :37:35.on what basis would we allow EU citizens to work here? On the basis

:37:36. > :37:39.of fairness and on the basis of what is good for the economy because that

:37:40. > :37:43.is what has been lost sight of in this debate. Your Shadow Cabinet

:37:44. > :37:47.colleague John Healy said this week Labour just does not understand what

:37:48. > :37:52.matters to many working class communities. Is he wrong? He is

:37:53. > :37:58.wrong if what he's saying is that we have to right on immigration to save

:37:59. > :38:04.seats from Ukip. My belief is if the Labour Party starts saying Ukip is

:38:05. > :38:08.right and immigration is the course of these people's problems, if we

:38:09. > :38:12.start to say that, that gives credence to Ukip. Thank you very

:38:13. > :38:14.much, you made that clear, thank you.

:38:15. > :38:16.It's just gone 11:35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:38:17. > :38:18.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:38:19. > :38:24.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.

:38:25. > :38:32.First, though, the Sunday Politics where you are.

:38:33. > :38:36.This week, later on, we are looking at why

:38:37. > :38:41.are sensing a Brexit bonus in the capital.

:38:42. > :38:42.Ploughing hundreds of millions into the regeneration

:38:43. > :38:47.One Chinese company tells us why they think leaving the EU

:38:48. > :38:52.Here this week, Chris Philp, Conservative MP for Croydon South,

:38:53. > :38:54.and Tulip Siddiq, Labour MP for Hampstead and Kilburn.

:38:55. > :39:02.We have to start on one story first, haven't we?

:39:03. > :39:06.This week's by-election result in Richmond Park, in North Kingston.

:39:07. > :39:08.The Lib Dems pulling out all the stops and succeeding

:39:09. > :39:14.in reversing Zac Goldsmith's 23,000 majority.

:39:15. > :39:17.The Lib Dems say it's a victory for their anti-Brexit cause.

:39:18. > :39:19.Others say that it is not amounting to that much.

:39:20. > :39:21.What can we read into these results, Chris Philp?

:39:22. > :39:26.By-elections are funny things and often throw up funny results.

:39:27. > :39:29.I suppose it's not entirely surprising that an area which voted

:39:30. > :39:31.very heavily Remain, about 70% Remain in the recent

:39:32. > :39:35.referendum, voted the way that they did, given that Zac

:39:36. > :39:37.was a Brexit supporting MP and the Lib Dems were successful

:39:38. > :39:40.in turning the by-election into a sort of mini

:39:41. > :39:44.But, of course, we had a vote nationally across the entire country

:39:45. > :39:47.and the Government's not going to be changing its policy simply

:39:48. > :39:49.because one area which voted Remain in June effectively voted Remain

:39:50. > :39:58.again, albeit by a smaller margin, only about 50%, compared to 70%.

:39:59. > :40:01.Interesting also, the Labour vote shrank to almost nothing,

:40:02. > :40:04.down from 12% to about 3%, also something of a surprise.

:40:05. > :40:16.He lost his deposit, the Labour candidate, Christian Wolmar?

:40:17. > :40:19.Look, if anyone thinks that Labour's going to do well in Richmond,

:40:20. > :40:24.So I'm not surprised we did how we did.

:40:25. > :40:26.This was a referendum on Zac Goldsmith and the Tories.

:40:27. > :40:29.It's not just about Brexit, Londoners paid Zac Goldsmith back

:40:30. > :40:31.for the divisive and, frankly speaking, bigoted campaign

:40:32. > :40:33.that he ran against Sadiq Khan just six months ago.

:40:34. > :40:36.Does it look as if, do you accept, does it look as if some

:40:37. > :40:39.Labour supporters there, because the vote did go down

:40:40. > :40:41.considerably on the 2015 election, that some of the voters there have

:40:42. > :40:43.lent their vote and supported Liberal Democrats here,

:40:44. > :40:48.In all honesty, I think it was just to make sure that Zac Goldsmith

:40:49. > :40:51.didn't get elected after the way not only did he run the divisive

:40:52. > :40:54.campaign he did against Sadiq Khan, which people still remember,

:40:55. > :40:58.but also, I think this shows, the result shows that Heathrow

:40:59. > :41:01.is not the number-one priority on everyone's list.

:41:02. > :41:03.It's something that's important, but the bread and butter issues

:41:04. > :41:09.Housing, education and Brexit, of course.

:41:10. > :41:11.Do you accept that, that it indicates that Heathrow isn't

:41:12. > :41:16.all that it's cracked up to be, as well as just being folly

:41:17. > :41:19.of somebody thinking they can put something like this to the test

:41:20. > :41:22.I'm not a fan of people randomly calling by-elections

:41:23. > :41:26.David Davis did it, actually, about ten years ago.

:41:27. > :41:29.The way we run our constitution is not that members of Parliament

:41:30. > :41:31.resign and call by-elections each time they're unhappy

:41:32. > :41:36.He was a bit foolish to have done this, was he?

:41:37. > :41:39.Well, clearly foolish because he lost, but also,

:41:40. > :41:43.constitutionally, it was a foolish thing to do.

:41:44. > :41:46.It's not how we run our country, it's not how parliament

:41:47. > :41:49.I think it was constitutionally foolish, as well as

:41:50. > :41:53.Of course, there was no Conservative candidate on the ticket.

:41:54. > :41:55.I think it was, I'm afraid to say, a rather personal

:41:56. > :42:02.But it can't surely be welcome to you as a party,

:42:03. > :42:05.trying to chart a way forward on Brexit, that this has happened

:42:06. > :42:07.so soon and sent such an obviously clear message?

:42:08. > :42:09.Well, as I said, Richmond voted overwhelmingly

:42:10. > :42:11.in favour of remaining in the European Union last year.

:42:12. > :42:13.They were overwhelmingly in favour of Eurosceptic

:42:14. > :42:16.So they were prepared to be nuanced before.

:42:17. > :42:18.This time, they made it absolutely clear what they wanted.

:42:19. > :42:27.The proxy Remain vote went from 70, down to 50.

:42:28. > :42:29.I think what is clear, Brexit, as a political issue

:42:30. > :42:32.in our national debate, is clearly much larger now

:42:33. > :42:34.than it was in 2015, because we are actually

:42:35. > :42:39.So it's real and we need to work out a way of leaving

:42:40. > :42:41.the European Union to best advantage, to make

:42:42. > :42:45.as a great city and our country continues to produce record numbers

:42:46. > :42:47.of jobs and continues to grow, as it has been doing.

:42:48. > :42:51.So, it's not surprising Brexit is a bigger issue now than it was in

:42:52. > :42:54.Something that really focused on the Conservatives, let's move on.

:42:55. > :42:57.We've got a lot to get through and we want to move

:42:58. > :42:59.onto the next thing as soon as we can.

:43:00. > :43:03.Mayor on a programme that put housing to the fore.

:43:04. > :43:05.But what happened this week to one of his key pledges,

:43:06. > :43:08.the one claiming that half of all new homes built

:43:09. > :43:11.More affordable housing for Londoners, one of Sidiq Khan's

:43:12. > :43:17.50% of all housing built in London would need to be

:43:18. > :43:19.genuinely affordable - or so he pledged

:43:20. > :43:26.At least half of all new homes that are built, that

:43:27. > :43:28.are given permission for, should be genuinely affordable.

:43:29. > :43:33.50% of all new homes built in London are genuinely affordable.

:43:34. > :43:35.But this week, it emerged that the Mayor was now

:43:36. > :43:38.relaxing his 50% affordability target in order to give developers

:43:39. > :43:50.Developers now only need to ensure 35% of homes built our affordable.

:43:51. > :43:53.Developers now only need to ensure 35% of homes built are affordable.

:43:54. > :43:55.Critics say the Mayor has broken a promise.

:43:56. > :43:59.Here we have a Labour Mayor who enters into an election saying

:44:00. > :44:01.he is going to build 80,000 homes a year,

:44:02. > :44:04.and he's going to have 50% affordable homes of all those.

:44:05. > :44:07.And we get seven months on and he issues his own press

:44:08. > :44:09.release saying, actually, guys, I was only kidding!

:44:10. > :44:23.Sadiq Khan has won some plaudits for his housing policy.

:44:24. > :44:26.You have to remember we are coming from a situation where developers

:44:27. > :44:29.were getting away with just 13% of what they were building

:44:30. > :44:34.What we are seeing here is a promise to be much tougher with developers

:44:35. > :44:44.Some believe his affordable housing policy is too focused on ownership

:44:45. > :44:49.What we were promised during the election was real

:44:50. > :44:51.action on rents for people who are struggling to afford

:44:52. > :44:55.What we have seen today is basically a re-announcement of an existing

:44:56. > :44:58.Tory Government scheme that's called rent-to-buy.

:44:59. > :45:01.The things they've announced seem to be entirely aimed at people

:45:02. > :45:04.who are well on their way to owning their own home already.

:45:05. > :45:06.People who are slightly better off, up to ?60,000 in income,

:45:07. > :45:13.The ability to afford a home is an issue close

:45:14. > :45:19.Can Sidiq Khan afford to disappoint them?

:45:20. > :45:21.Well, James Murray is here deputy mayor for housing.

:45:22. > :45:30.Let's start with this point, if you are trying to hit 50%

:45:31. > :45:33.and that is still a target, why do you say to developers 35%?

:45:34. > :45:41.So, the measure about having a threshold of 35% is a first step.

:45:42. > :45:43.It is one measure we are using straightaway, to try to raise

:45:44. > :45:46.the amount of affordable housing in the system as we move

:45:47. > :45:50.What you've got to understand, when you are trying to increase

:45:51. > :45:53.the amount of affordable housing in London, is that you

:45:54. > :45:57.have the planning tools, where threshold comes in.

:45:58. > :45:59.You also have investment, hand in hand.

:46:00. > :46:01.We secured, after really good negotiations with government over

:46:02. > :46:03.the summer, ?3.15 billion, which will go into building more

:46:04. > :46:08.That kind of money can go to housing associations, for instance,

:46:09. > :46:10.who can build at least 50%, sometimes even 60% affordable

:46:11. > :46:13.And, together, this moves us in that direction.

:46:14. > :46:16.Are you saying that you can say to developers you only

:46:17. > :46:18.have to build a third, well, not "only", because it is

:46:19. > :46:21.still quite a lot, historically, a third that is affordable?

:46:22. > :46:24.Because the amount of affordability you get from housing associations,

:46:25. > :46:27.other providers, will bring the average up to 50% eventually?

:46:28. > :46:30.Is that what you are saying that you are going to do?

:46:31. > :46:37.If you just let me say why I think that is part of it,

:46:38. > :46:40.I think it is really important to understand that these are first

:46:41. > :46:42.steps in the direction that we need to take.

:46:43. > :46:45.If you look at what we inherited, we inherited a situation where just

:46:46. > :46:47.13% of homes given planning permission under the previous

:46:48. > :46:52.So we all recognise it's going to take time

:46:53. > :46:57.But what we've done is we have come up with a way of increasing

:46:58. > :47:00.the amount of affordable housing, ahead of the new London plan,

:47:01. > :47:02.which is going to come out in draft next year,

:47:03. > :47:04.trying to increase the amount of affordable housing even

:47:05. > :47:09.I think what is really interesting, if you look at the reaction

:47:10. > :47:12.to what we came out with this week, you had someone from Shelter in your

:47:13. > :47:15.We also had Tony Pidgley, from Berkeley Homes,

:47:16. > :47:19.saying he can make this work, he can live with what were saying.

:47:20. > :47:21.Well, I imagine he will be very happy he is not

:47:22. > :47:24.My point is, if you have Shelter and developers,

:47:25. > :47:27.and the big housing associations, all saying, you know what,

:47:28. > :47:31.this is ambitious but practical, that is a good way to take it on.

:47:32. > :47:34.You will know that what Shelter also say is that it was absurd to make

:47:35. > :47:37.the claim that you could go to 50% affordability straightaway

:47:38. > :47:39.and give that impression in an election campaign.

:47:40. > :47:45.Just allows people like me to constantly saying

:47:46. > :47:48.it is a broken pledge, or a pledge that has now been shoved

:47:49. > :47:52.I think we have been clear, right from day one,

:47:53. > :47:55.It's going to take time to get there.

:47:56. > :48:01.Day one from the mayoralty, do you mean?

:48:02. > :48:04.But the point I'm making, about the pledge he made

:48:05. > :48:06.during the campaign, which was going to be

:48:07. > :48:10.We hit the ground running, anybody comes forward with a plot,

:48:11. > :48:13.we want half of all of these homes to be affordable.

:48:14. > :48:16.In the manifesto, it said we were going to set

:48:17. > :48:20.We said we were going to work with boroughs and others

:48:21. > :48:24.It's very clear, upon taking office, you realise quite how rock bottom

:48:25. > :48:26.it is, in terms of the amount of affordable housing

:48:27. > :48:30.What we have done over the last six months is work together

:48:31. > :48:32.with councils of all different political backgrounds,

:48:33. > :48:34.with the Government, with home-builders, with housing

:48:35. > :48:35.associations, with everyone across London, and Londoners

:48:36. > :48:37.themselves, to work out how to increase the amount

:48:38. > :48:45.of affordable housing towards a long-term target of 50%.

:48:46. > :48:48.The kind of stuff we are talking about today is a first step.

:48:49. > :48:51.It is a few measures we are going to use to get

:48:52. > :48:53.the amount of affordable housing up quickly.

:48:54. > :48:55.Let me double-check whether, by the end of this term,

:48:56. > :48:57.this mayoral term, you will be heading 50% affordability.

:48:58. > :49:02.You're talking about first steps, presumably final step will be

:49:03. > :49:07.We are going to have a draft London plan coming out next year,

:49:08. > :49:10.which is going to set out this overall target of 50% and how

:49:11. > :49:15.But this is early first steps we can do to move in that direction.

:49:16. > :49:17.I think it is really, really important to understand

:49:18. > :49:19.that the planning threshold, this minimum threshold,

:49:20. > :49:23.getting up to 35 and beyond, is a way of moving up from the 13%

:49:24. > :49:25.which we inherited and it works hand-in-hand with the funding.

:49:26. > :49:28.You know, the ?3.15 billion, towards 90,000 affordable homes.

:49:29. > :49:30.?3.15 billion from the Conservative government.

:49:31. > :49:35.I know Andrew Boff makes the point he does, but you have

:49:36. > :49:39.You can't just go from 13, 13% in the last year

:49:40. > :49:41.of Boris Johnson's mayoralty, to 50%, straightaway.

:49:42. > :49:44.Over the eight years of Ken Livingstone's

:49:45. > :49:46.mayoralty and the eight years of Boris Johnson's mayoralty,

:49:47. > :49:48.there were affordable homes in the low 30s,

:49:49. > :49:51.I think it was 31 under Boris Johnson, 33 under Ken Livingstone.

:49:52. > :49:55.Everybody told Sadiq Khan during the campaign that 50%

:49:56. > :49:57.was completely unachievable, but he chose to then

:49:58. > :50:02.claim he would hit 50%, for reasons of electoral expediency.

:50:03. > :50:07.No wonder people lose trust in politicians.

:50:08. > :50:11.And he didn't say he would aspire to it, or get to it over

:50:12. > :50:13.some period of time, he said he would amend the planning

:50:14. > :50:19.Isn't this a slight problem, Tulip, that this happened to you?

:50:20. > :50:22.You must have had the impression, people in your constituency felt

:50:23. > :50:26.there was a pledge and it was going to happen pretty quickly?

:50:27. > :50:28.I will not take any lectures from the Conservative Party

:50:29. > :50:34.were approved last year - these are the facts -

:50:35. > :50:43.Sadiq Khan has done more in six months of being Mayor, in terms

:50:44. > :50:44.of affordable housing, fighting the Conservative

:50:45. > :50:47.Government, which I watched until he got the ?3.5 billion.

:50:48. > :50:50.He was Conservative Mayor, with a Conservative government.

:50:51. > :50:53.Your government recognises this because it has given them money,

:50:54. > :50:57.expressly the 15,000 affordable homes each year.

:50:58. > :51:08.Boris Johnson, by the way, delivered 31% of affordable homes

:51:09. > :51:10.so I'm proud it's a Conservative government which is delivering

:51:11. > :51:13.affordable housing, while it's a Labour Mayor who is shamefully

:51:14. > :51:34.Are you proud of this Conservative government that's

:51:35. > :51:40.I am really proud of the work that we've done with the Government

:51:41. > :51:45.You know the slogan - 'A city for all Londoners.'

:51:46. > :51:47.Well, that really means it's working with everyone across London.

:51:48. > :51:50.So what that means in practice is working with councils

:51:51. > :51:54.This is about us taking leadership here, working

:51:55. > :52:00.Even after you've been so aggressive!

:52:01. > :52:05.All right, well, you know we'll be returning to it often.

:52:06. > :52:07.For the moment, thanks very much indeed.

:52:08. > :52:09.Some have been predicting that Brexit will drive away the foreign

:52:10. > :52:12.money that has flowed into London in the past decade,

:52:13. > :52:14.but what is the attitude among Chinese investors in particular,

:52:15. > :52:18.who've taken such a keen interest in opportunities in the capital?

:52:19. > :52:21.Since the summer, the 60% of Londoners who voted to remain

:52:22. > :52:26.A spike in racist attacks, a collapsing pound,

:52:27. > :52:34.But if you want to look for it, there's plenty of good news as well.

:52:35. > :52:37.The falling pound, well, it makes things expensive for us,

:52:38. > :52:40.but people around the world have just been handed a massive

:52:41. > :52:43.It means we had a boom in tourism this summer,

:52:44. > :52:46.and there are lots of signs that people are willing to invest

:52:47. > :52:57.30,000 jobs are set to be created just across the water

:52:58. > :52:59.from City Airport, in the Royal Albert Docks,

:53:00. > :53:05.Designed as an Asian business hub, it covers a 35-acre site,

:53:06. > :53:11.The planning permission guarantees that 40% of jobs

:53:12. > :53:13.will go to local people, and the first buildings

:53:14. > :53:20.Now, all of this has been a long time coming.

:53:21. > :53:23.ADP, the company in charge, first got involved in the site in 2008.

:53:24. > :53:26.Planning permission was signed off in 2014, but the money was only

:53:27. > :53:28.signed off last month, when four Chinese banks approved

:53:29. > :53:37.Now, ABP said that Brexit, far from being a hindrance

:53:38. > :53:43.in getting that money, was actually a help.

:53:44. > :53:45.Chinese, or the Asian, and in fact the Asian world think

:53:46. > :53:51.post-Brexit has now finally come and is a very good idea.

:53:52. > :53:54.They see surely the exchange rate going down.

:53:55. > :53:57.Certainly, it is 10% discount on most of the purchases, and makes

:53:58. > :53:59.them more interested in investing in London, especially

:54:00. > :54:08.But also, surely, to expand their business in London.

:54:09. > :54:12.We are always happy when business is doing good and I see that the UK

:54:13. > :54:21.The local MP is the Remainer Stephen Timms, who says he had been worried

:54:22. > :54:28.It is about Chinese and other businesses coming into Europe

:54:29. > :54:32.for the first time and wanting to trade with the whole of Europe.

:54:33. > :54:35.Obviously, there's a question mark at the moment about what exactly our

:54:36. > :54:37.future trading relationship with the rest of Europe

:54:38. > :54:42.So I'm pleased that the project is going ahead.

:54:43. > :54:44.As you say, the currency change has helped.

:54:45. > :54:48.But I think it does reflect a wider confidence.

:54:49. > :54:50.Last year, Britain literally laid out the red carpet

:54:51. > :54:52.for the Chinese President Xi and promised a new era

:54:53. > :54:56.The more we trade together, the more we have a stake

:54:57. > :55:04.But rather than a gateway into the EU, something at the root

:55:05. > :55:07.of all this is that the Chinese see London as the way

:55:08. > :55:13.The Chinese government have taken a long-term view that

:55:14. > :55:15.London is their gateway into the world's

:55:16. > :55:25.So perhaps the most interesting thing that's going on - and has been

:55:26. > :55:28.going on for the last four or five years now - is how China

:55:29. > :55:33.is investing in the ecosystem of the City of London.

:55:34. > :55:38.But the Chinese are also snapping up London property.

:55:39. > :55:40.This is Spire London, a new Chinese-owned block,

:55:41. > :55:42.set not just to be the tallest building in Canary Wharf,

:55:43. > :55:46.but the biggest residential tower in Western Europe.

:55:47. > :55:49.According to one estimate, Chinese companies are investing

:55:50. > :55:52.?4 billion in London property this year, up by a third on the year

:55:53. > :55:56.before, making them - some reckon - the beast investors in the capital

:55:57. > :56:00.Some of it is down to the fact that, actually,

:56:01. > :56:05.So actually, there's a big desire from developers in China to actually

:56:06. > :56:07.expand their market reach and actually identify

:56:08. > :56:11.Last summer, the Chinese stock market crashed.

:56:12. > :56:13.Some property is proving hard to sell, and putting your money

:56:14. > :56:17.into London still looks like a safe bet.

:56:18. > :56:21.Perhaps the question is, for how long?

:56:22. > :56:24.And, Tulip, do you accept that kind of optimistic picture?

:56:25. > :56:27.Well, you know, we need investment in London, obviously,

:56:28. > :56:30.and I'm glad that Sadiq Khan has made it clear that London

:56:31. > :56:34.But if you're asking me whether I'm optimistic about the future

:56:35. > :56:37.of the country in light of Brexit, I'll be honest and say

:56:38. > :56:41.We haven't seen any kind of plan from the Conservative

:56:42. > :56:47.All I know is that Brexit means Brexit, but I don't actually

:56:48. > :56:49.know what that means, and I know the notes from an aide

:56:50. > :56:55.I'd like to hear a long-term plan from the Conservative Government

:56:56. > :57:01.Maybe it could mean cake, having cake and eating it.

:57:02. > :57:05.Look at this Chinese businessman saying...

:57:06. > :57:09.I think this is one of many investments that we need to look at.

:57:10. > :57:12.And I do think he's being a bit too optimistic, in my opinion.

:57:13. > :57:14.I'm glad he's investing, we need homes.

:57:15. > :57:17.An independent IPPR report said we need 50,000 homes in the capital

:57:18. > :57:21.But do I really think this is going to achieve it,

:57:22. > :57:27.Well, I obviously, like Tulip, welcome the Chinese investment

:57:28. > :57:29.in regenerating parts of East London.

:57:30. > :57:31.I welcome the fact that they're investing in building houses

:57:32. > :57:34.and that they're willing to look through Brexit, as Nissan did,

:57:35. > :57:36.to I hope a prosperous future ahead, providing we get

:57:37. > :57:41.One thing that just does slightly concern me is the idea that some

:57:42. > :57:43.of these developments get sold, the apartments get sold

:57:44. > :57:51.And I would like to see an emphasis placed on selling those houses

:57:52. > :57:54.to first-time buyers in London, who are struggling to get

:57:55. > :57:57.And that's an area which I would like to see...

:57:58. > :57:59.But what about the point we're hearing a lot,

:58:00. > :58:01.that people, the Chinese, wouldn't come and set up

:58:02. > :58:04.their European headquarters here - and that was a plan particularly

:58:05. > :58:07.on that site in East London - because of Brexit?

:58:08. > :58:08.Well, it looks like he's quite happy.

:58:09. > :58:11.It does look like he's quite happy and I'm delighted by that.

:58:12. > :58:13.And I'm delighted by Nissan's plans in Sunderland.

:58:14. > :58:16.And I hope that if we do get this negotiation right -

:58:17. > :58:20.and it will be difficult, by the way - I hope we see many more

:58:21. > :58:22.international companies using London and using the United Kingdom

:58:23. > :58:27.I just wonder whether it's a kind of early sign of the kind

:58:28. > :58:30.of flexibility that international business and huge capital ends up

:58:31. > :58:34.Well, if we can adopt it and work in London, I'd be delighted,

:58:35. > :58:36.because no-one cares about London more than London MPs

:58:37. > :58:40.But it depends on what happens with other investments.

:58:41. > :58:43.This is one of many, as I've said, but I do want to make sure

:58:44. > :58:47.And I'd echo Chris Philp's words actually about making sure that

:58:48. > :58:50.homes are not sold off to foreign developers and to foreign

:58:51. > :58:53.homeowners, who buy it and don't live in the homes and take it

:58:54. > :59:04.Now for the rest of the political news - in 60 Seconds.

:59:05. > :59:08.London Mayor Sadiq Khan has unveiled a ?7 million programme to give young

:59:09. > :59:10.Londoners the skills to access jobs in the capital's digital,

:59:11. > :59:17.The Mayor's Digital Talent Programme will have a particular focus

:59:18. > :59:20.on boosting the proportion of women and black and minority ethnic

:59:21. > :59:26.Further rail disruption flagged up this week.

:59:27. > :59:29.London Underground office staff have voted for industrial action over

:59:30. > :59:34.And the train drivers' union Aslef looks set to strike on December 13th

:59:35. > :59:35.over their opposition to driver-only

:59:36. > :59:45.Paramedics are not being dispatched to thousands of 999 calls,

:59:46. > :59:48.as London Ambulance Service struggles to cope with a record

:59:49. > :59:55.The service revealed that crews were not being sent

:59:56. > :59:58.to about 2,500 patients a week, to enable it to target resources

:59:59. > :00:12.Chris, you've been instrumental in helping get a limited amount

:00:13. > :00:13.of compensation for people coming through Southern.

:00:14. > :00:15.No end to this industrial action, though.

:00:16. > :00:20.Your government needs to intervene and sort it out, doesn't it?

:00:21. > :00:23.Well, the compensation is a small step in the right direction,

:00:24. > :00:26.but we need to take urgent action to upgrade the points

:00:27. > :00:29.And the RMT and Aslef need to end their completely pointless

:00:30. > :00:31.strike that's inflicting misery on hundreds of thousands

:00:32. > :00:36.Getting to that board and the leadership of the company

:00:37. > :00:38.and saying, come on, get together and find a solution.

:00:39. > :00:41.Well, I mean, the RMT have already accepted the drivers will open

:00:42. > :00:44.and close doors from January, so they're striking over something

:00:45. > :00:46.They should call off the strike immediately,

:00:47. > :00:54.And, of course, Sadiq Khan was the person who was going to end

:00:55. > :00:55.all the kind of Tube strife in future.

:00:56. > :00:58.The Government needs to sit down and talk to people

:00:59. > :01:02.What I would say to you is that people don't strike lightly.

:01:03. > :01:04.If they strike, it's because it's a last resort

:01:05. > :01:08.But he said he was going to reduce it.

:01:09. > :01:10.It looks like it's all going to start happening again.

:01:11. > :01:13.Well, the Government needs to play a role as well, and Sadiq

:01:14. > :01:18.I mean, we all need to come together and make sure this doesn't happen,

:01:19. > :01:20.because it severely does disrupt commuters and their travels.

:01:21. > :01:23.OK, to you both, thanks very much indeed for coming in.

:01:24. > :01:36.The Government's Supreme Court appeal against

:01:37. > :01:41.And, are the Lib Dems "back in the game"?

:01:42. > :01:59.The Italians have this constitutional referendum today,

:02:00. > :02:05.Matteo Renzi says if he loses, he will resign and that will spark a

:02:06. > :02:08.political crisis on top of the potential banking crisis, 18% of

:02:09. > :02:14.Italian bank loans on non-performing so they will not be paid back. He

:02:15. > :02:18.needs a 40 billion bailout and for complicated reasons, he cannot do

:02:19. > :02:22.it. By tomorrow morning, Italy could be the European story and not

:02:23. > :02:27.Britain. Britain is an age long forgotten problem in the world. We

:02:28. > :02:31.have had Trump, Italy and also Austria. Italy has long been the

:02:32. > :02:35.forgotten eurozone crisis about happen. It is not banking but also

:02:36. > :02:39.sovereign debt, they have a ridiculous deficit and this is what

:02:40. > :02:43.Mr Renzi is trying to tackle with constitutional reform. I do not

:02:44. > :02:47.think it is a necessary given that just because Renzi loses the

:02:48. > :02:51.referendum which he could do, he is behind in the polls, he will resign.

:02:52. > :03:03.Politicians have a funny way of digging themselves out of holes. He

:03:04. > :03:05.said he would resign and then he said he would not and now he is

:03:06. > :03:08.saying he is again. The Italian President who appoints the Prime

:03:09. > :03:11.Minister might talk him out of it. If it is against, the signal it

:03:12. > :03:14.sends to the markets is that Italy cannot reform itself. And so the

:03:15. > :03:20.chances of ever getting on top of a sovereign debt which is 135% of

:03:21. > :03:25.Italy's GDP, in an economy that has not grown since it joined the euro,

:03:26. > :03:29.that would be a strong signal to the markets. There is an echo of David

:03:30. > :03:37.Cameron's slightly back me or sack me approach to the EU referendum. A

:03:38. > :03:41.loan is 56 words long. Incredible. A bundle of reforms on the original

:03:42. > :03:45.idea of cutting the number of people in the second chamber and increasing

:03:46. > :03:48.the speed of legislation. It has turned into a confidence vote in

:03:49. > :03:52.Renzi. Before they stopped polling and they have two in the run-up to

:03:53. > :03:58.something like this, it looked like the No vote was quite for a head, so

:03:59. > :04:01.the insurgency vote. Given the record of the polls, I guess Renzi

:04:02. > :04:07.should go to bed early because he has won! A poll early today said the

:04:08. > :04:11.public will losing confidence in pollsters, surprise surprise.

:04:12. > :04:17.Another reason it would mean a financial crisis if there is a vote

:04:18. > :04:20.of no is that the Five Star Movement which would put up a candidate at a

:04:21. > :04:25.general election, which there could be, depending on what the President

:04:26. > :04:29.decides to do, the likelihood is the Five Star Movement might win. One of

:04:30. > :04:34.their policy commitments is to hold a referendum about whether Italy

:04:35. > :04:38.remains in the euro. And they will campaign against, so that is no

:04:39. > :04:43.comfort to the markets. Italian polls do not close until ten o'clock

:04:44. > :04:47.our time, 11 o'clock in Italy and we will get exit polls earlier. The

:04:48. > :04:51.South, we think, will be very much a No vote and the North could be

:04:52. > :04:55.different. By the morning, we will have a clear-cut idea. Meanwhile,

:04:56. > :04:58.the Supreme Court he is the appeal from the Government on Article 50

:04:59. > :05:02.and what the role of Parliament should be. It is not look like we

:05:03. > :05:08.will get a decision until January. I would suggest this Supreme Court

:05:09. > :05:13.ruling will be quite historic in that, I get the impression the

:05:14. > :05:19.judges intends to lay down quite clear parameters on what Executive

:05:20. > :05:23.powers are. They are taking it very seriously, instead of a panel of

:05:24. > :05:28.three judges, there is a bank of them. They acknowledge this is big.

:05:29. > :05:33.And it could be a slight anticlimax. There is a majority for this very

:05:34. > :05:37.simple bill, passing Article 50. Labour have said they will try to

:05:38. > :05:40.amend it but they will not block it. You might end up with enormous rage

:05:41. > :05:45.about these unelected judges and they might make their ruling and

:05:46. > :05:49.there is a simply -- there is a simple bill which passes. The

:05:50. > :05:53.interesting thing is the process. It will lay out a historical precedent

:05:54. > :05:56.for years and years to come by the Supreme Court. The Sunday Telegraph

:05:57. > :06:01.this morning said that the Government was ready with a very

:06:02. > :06:06.short Bill saying, this House votes to trigger Article 50. Words to that

:06:07. > :06:10.effect. Can it get away with that? I think it probably can because no MP

:06:11. > :06:14.and no political party really wants to be seen to stand on the way of

:06:15. > :06:18.Brexit quite yet. The Government whips I have spoken to and other

:06:19. > :06:22.opposition party leaders, they all say the fight is on the great repeal

:06:23. > :06:26.Bill and not less. There is one really interesting thing that has

:06:27. > :06:30.happened as a result of this great legal fight which we expect the

:06:31. > :06:34.Supreme Court will hide -- will hold at the High Court verdict. It is

:06:35. > :06:38.already significantly softening the Government's view on Brexit as we

:06:39. > :06:45.discussed earlier. Talking about a grey or a less hard Brexit. You look

:06:46. > :06:48.at what David Davis said in the House of Commons on Thursday about

:06:49. > :06:53.painting the budget contributions, still keeping some element of

:06:54. > :06:57.freedom of movement. There is a really important thing, if you want

:06:58. > :07:00.to get something through the House of Commons to trigger Article 50,

:07:01. > :07:05.you have to have the numbers with you and there is not a majority for

:07:06. > :07:09.a hard Brexit. You do wonder in a way wider government, unless it

:07:10. > :07:13.wants some kind of authoritative, historic statement one way or

:07:14. > :07:19.another on this, why if it has got the votes as they are saying, it did

:07:20. > :07:26.not just go and trigger Article 50. After it lost in the lower court. I

:07:27. > :07:29.think it is concerned about a bill to trigger Article 50 being amended

:07:30. > :07:35.and the process being frustrated by the opponents of Brexit. There is a

:07:36. > :07:40.risk the Supreme Court will refer the decision to the European Court

:07:41. > :07:47.of Justice. Earlier this week, the most senior British member of the

:07:48. > :07:50.ECJ, said it had ultimate authority when it came to Article 50 and the

:07:51. > :07:55.Supreme Court may take that view as well and refer it. From the point of

:07:56. > :08:01.view of Brexit, nothing could be better than Britain and its

:08:02. > :08:06.powerlessness expose and we have to see permission from a European court

:08:07. > :08:10.to leave the European Union and if Theresa May wanted to trigger a

:08:11. > :08:13.second general election before the ECJ has ruled, that would be the

:08:14. > :08:19.second referendum that Nick Clegg and others have been wishing for and

:08:20. > :08:22.I think the Brexiteers would win that hands down. We shall see,

:08:23. > :08:27.interesting development if that does go to the macro 3. Earlier, we

:08:28. > :08:33.listened to Diane Abbott on immigration -- Diane Abbott. There

:08:34. > :08:37.was a bit on Diane Jarvis we did not put in about Mr Jarvis and his

:08:38. > :08:40.reaction to Diane as Shadow Home Secretary, let's listen to that.

:08:41. > :08:43.She is the Shadow Home Secretary, so this whole issue of immigration,

:08:44. > :08:45.she is the mouthpiece for Labour, is she robust enough?

:08:46. > :08:48.Well, all of us in the Labour Party who believe this

:08:49. > :08:50.is an important issue - which I hope would be

:08:51. > :08:52.pretty much everybody - have an absolute responsibility

:08:53. > :08:54.to discuss this in a very grown-up way.

:08:55. > :08:58.But I cannot lose sight of the fact that in my constituency

:08:59. > :09:00.and around the country, and I've spoken to thousands

:09:01. > :09:03.of people about it, immigration is a very important issue.

:09:04. > :09:13.I think the proof of the pudding always will be in the eating.

:09:14. > :09:20.Dan Jarvis, we thought you would like to see that! Did we learn

:09:21. > :09:24.something about Labour's immigration policy this morning? Definitely, it

:09:25. > :09:27.is no secret Labour backbenchers are unhappy with the leadership on an

:09:28. > :09:32.enormous range of issues. What is more interesting is the view of

:09:33. > :09:36.Diane Abbott that Labour should defend the principle of immigration,

:09:37. > :09:40.not the view of Kai Di sky blue is an John McDonnell, the other close

:09:41. > :09:45.advisers of Jeremy Corbyn. There is a split within the people around

:09:46. > :09:49.Jeremy Corbyn and so absolutely we did learn something. We learned

:09:50. > :09:53.about the split? We're not miracle workers, we did not learn about the

:09:54. > :09:58.policy! It is close to Christmas, I can as for a present! The fact that

:09:59. > :10:02.there is a split on the Labour frontbench is probably not news so I

:10:03. > :10:06.argued there was nothing we learned at all! What was amazing about that

:10:07. > :10:11.Diane Abbott interview, she was able to contradict or dismiss or offend

:10:12. > :10:16.five different members of the Labour front bench. I counted John Healy,

:10:17. > :10:20.Keir Starmer, Clive Lewis, Emily Thornberry and Jeremy Corbyn's

:10:21. > :10:25.spokesman. That is extraordinary and that also will not make news because

:10:26. > :10:31.we think that is now normal. It will not make column inches of the great

:10:32. > :10:34.volcano on the front bench. Brief but before we finish on the Liberal

:10:35. > :10:38.Democrats? The danger of the Richmond Park by-election victory

:10:39. > :10:42.for Labour and the resurgence of the Liberal Democrats is that they now

:10:43. > :10:47.become the official opposition and they will move into that space which

:10:48. > :10:51.Labour has essentially vacated by being leaderless. I have got the

:10:52. > :10:57.Labour calendar, I got you a present for 2017. Great photographs of Keir

:10:58. > :11:04.Hardie and the founding of the health service. Thomas Attlee.

:11:05. > :11:07.Homosexuality being legalised and decriminalised in 1967. Funnily

:11:08. > :11:12.enough, no picture of Tony Blair, the man that won more elections for

:11:13. > :11:19.Labour. Just a little thing and made the first which was the year that

:11:20. > :11:27.Tony Blair won an election. Liberal Democrats, you can see it, on this

:11:28. > :11:32.day under Tony Blair, Labour win a landslide general election. 20th

:11:33. > :11:36.anniversary. Sarah Olney is the new MP for Richmond. I interviewed her

:11:37. > :11:40.in the middle of the night. Just after she had won, and she gave an

:11:41. > :11:43.interview to LBC and we thought you would like to see a clip of that.

:11:44. > :11:45.They voted for a departure, but not a destination.

:11:46. > :11:48.You know, there was no clear manifesto for what happened to,

:11:49. > :11:50.you know, our membership of the Single Market, or what...

:11:51. > :11:54.The Remain campaign said we were going to leave

:11:55. > :12:01.Every single leading member of the Remain campaign said a vote

:12:02. > :12:04.to leave the EU was a vote to leave the Single Market.

:12:05. > :12:10.I'm really sorry, but Sarah has to leave now.

:12:11. > :12:15.Sarah, if you want to be an elected Member of Parliament,

:12:16. > :12:17.I think you should probably be able to answer some simple

:12:18. > :12:20.Can you get Sarah back on the line, please?

:12:21. > :12:30.There you go, always helpful to have a PR man! At least Nick Clegg did

:12:31. > :12:36.not do that today. No, he took his punches and heat threw some back.

:12:37. > :12:39.Yes, he stood his ground well. Lib Dems, is this significant or not?

:12:40. > :12:44.There are not many seats like Richmond were 72% voted to remain.

:12:45. > :12:49.But there are many were Labour could be squeezed, it is a tactical

:12:50. > :12:53.anti-Tory vote and the best place for that is Lib Dems. For tips on

:12:54. > :12:57.strategy, the Lib Dems potentially think they have 40% is now flocking

:12:58. > :13:00.to them who voted Remain and it does not add up in constituency seats,

:13:01. > :13:05.especially in the south-west where they lost their seats. It is a

:13:06. > :13:09.Brexit area and they will not win them back there. It gives the Lib

:13:10. > :13:13.Dems something distinctive to say. Completely, they have a big yellow

:13:14. > :13:17.flag right in the middle of British politics and they have not had that

:13:18. > :13:24.for seven, eight years. We will leave it there, thank you.

:13:25. > :13:26.We will have more politics throughout the week.

:13:27. > :13:30.That's all for today, I'll be back at the same time next weekend.

:13:31. > :14:20.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:14:21. > :14:24.Does it hurt you to touch the control? Yeah.

:14:25. > :14:28.To sign my name would be an incredible thing.

:14:29. > :14:31.'Graham needs a better way to communicate.

:14:32. > :14:34.'What if the best brains in Britain could help to fix your life?'

:14:35. > :14:38.You know you're doing it for the right reasons, so you keep going.

:14:39. > :14:42.Gah! Did it just work? It's life-changing.