:01:07. > :01:11.Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees and citizens of seven
:01:12. > :01:13.mainly Muslim countries sparks protests at several US airports.
:01:14. > :01:15.The President says "it's working out very nicely"
:01:16. > :01:19.After getting too close to comfort for some to the US President,
:01:20. > :01:22.Theresa May refuses to condemn his refugee ban despite being asked
:01:23. > :01:24.about it three times at a press conference.
:01:25. > :01:26.Should she have spoken out more strongly?
:01:27. > :01:28.We'll ask former Ukip leader and Trump confidant Nigel Farage
:01:29. > :01:31.what he makes of the travel ban and the Prime Minister's
:01:32. > :01:34.In London this week, the mayor, Sadiq Khan,
:01:35. > :01:36.has been coming under pressure to explain his fares freeze
:01:37. > :01:38.and why it doesn't apply to everybody.
:01:39. > :01:40.And with me, the best and brightest political
:01:41. > :01:41.panel in the business - Steve Richards, Julia
:01:42. > :01:44.They'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:45. > :01:47.It was soon after Theresa May left the White House on Friday that
:01:48. > :01:50.Donald Trump signed the executive order banning citizens from seven
:01:51. > :01:56.President Trump's 90-day ban covers Iran, Iraq,
:01:57. > :01:59.Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen and Syria, from
:02:00. > :02:03.where refugees are banned from until further notice.
:02:04. > :02:06.Donald Trump's executive order also imposes a complete ban
:02:07. > :02:11.on all refugees coming to the US for the next 120 days.
:02:12. > :02:15.Mr Trump said that the ban would keep radical Islamic terrorists out
:02:16. > :02:24.But the ban has sparked protests across the US,
:02:25. > :02:26.as people affected and already in the air were detained
:02:27. > :02:30.US laws have begun legal action to challenge the ban, which many
:02:31. > :02:36.At a press conference in Ankara, Turkey, Theresa May was asked
:02:37. > :02:40.about the refugee ban three times before giving this response...
:02:41. > :02:43.Well, the United States is responsible for the United States'
:02:44. > :02:49.The United Kingdom is responsible for the United Kingdom's policy
:02:50. > :02:52.on refugees, and our policy on refugees is to have a number
:02:53. > :02:54.of voluntary schemes to bring Syrian refugees into the country.
:02:55. > :03:09.Downing Street later issued a statement saying:
:03:10. > :03:12.This morning, the Treasury Minister, David Gauke, was asked why
:03:13. > :03:14.Theresa May had refused to condemn the travel ban at yesterday's
:03:15. > :03:20.The Prime Minister is not a shoot-from-the-hip
:03:21. > :03:25.She wants to see the evidence, she wants
:03:26. > :03:29.to understand precisely what the implications are.
:03:30. > :03:32.She'd been in a series of very lengthy meetings with
:03:33. > :03:36.President Erdogan, and she's someone who wants to see the briefing and
:03:37. > :03:39.understand it, and then will respond to that.
:03:40. > :03:42.I think there are times where, you know, there's always
:03:43. > :03:45.pressure to respond within a news cycle and so on.
:03:46. > :03:47.The important thing is, we are saying we disagree with it
:03:48. > :03:51.We're joined now from North London by the Conservative
:03:52. > :04:03.Should the Government in general and Theresa May in particular be more
:04:04. > :04:12.vocal in their criticism of Donald Trump's travel bans? Well, as David
:04:13. > :04:15.just said, it is obviously right that Theresa has now said this is an
:04:16. > :04:19.appropriate and not something we agree with in our Government, but I
:04:20. > :04:26.wish she had said something at the time, not least because it affects
:04:27. > :04:30.our own citizens. One of our own MPs, Nadhim, for example, because it
:04:31. > :04:37.is also a global crisis. She had clearly built an excellent with
:04:38. > :04:41.Donald Trump -- she had built an excellent relationship with him, but
:04:42. > :04:45.she could have been firmer. Mrs May hasn't said any word of criticism
:04:46. > :04:51.about the travel bans. She refused to say anything three times in
:04:52. > :04:54.Ankara, and it is merely an anonymous Downing Street
:04:55. > :04:57.spokesperson that has issued the subsequent mild criticism. We have
:04:58. > :05:01.not heard from the Prime Minister at all on this matter in terms of
:05:02. > :05:06.criticism. No, but the spokesperson will be speaking with her blessing,
:05:07. > :05:09.so it is clearly something she has acknowledged. As I said before, I
:05:10. > :05:13.wish she had said something at the time. The global climate at the
:05:14. > :05:18.moment is delicate and we need our leaders to work together to address
:05:19. > :05:22.things like the refugee crisis. Potentially, this plays into the
:05:23. > :05:30.hands of Daesh. It is absolutely not the right message. What would you
:05:31. > :05:33.like the Prime Minister to say? As with any new relationship, it is
:05:34. > :05:37.about testing the boundaries. They had clearly got on well, so she
:05:38. > :05:40.should have felt braver to say something there and then. I would
:05:41. > :05:43.have preferred her to say, for example, I need to talk to Donald
:05:44. > :05:46.Trump about this. It is not something I support and I want to
:05:47. > :05:50.understand why because I believe there is a better way to deal with
:05:51. > :05:54.the terrorist threat. I would have liked her to suggest that she would
:05:55. > :05:58.engage with him to do that. The president has instituted a 90 day
:05:59. > :06:04.temporary ban on people coming from seven mainly Muslim majority
:06:05. > :06:09.population countries. The seven were on President Obama's list of the
:06:10. > :06:14.biggest terrorist threats to the United States. Mr Trump wants this
:06:15. > :06:19.temporary ban until he puts tougher vetting procedures in place. What is
:06:20. > :06:24.wrong with that? Because it appeared to me that it wasn't thought through
:06:25. > :06:27.and it was affecting ordinary citizens and some British citizens.
:06:28. > :06:31.It can't be right that a president in that position of power can
:06:32. > :06:36.arbitrarily come up with executive powers like that. It has already
:06:37. > :06:41.been challenged by his own courts. So it is not the considered approach
:06:42. > :06:45.I want to see in a global leader. Who do you believe will be hurt by
:06:46. > :06:59.this, given that there can be exceptions on a case-by-case basis?
:07:00. > :07:04.I think potentially, our global reputation is going to be hurt by
:07:05. > :07:09.this. I have been to the refugee camps in Europe myself. There are
:07:10. > :07:12.desperate people trying to free persecution who will be hurt by
:07:13. > :07:16.this. We are trying to heal the wounds in this country not only
:07:17. > :07:19.because of Brexit. This is a time of coming together, not about saying it
:07:20. > :07:23.is located discriminatory against race and religion in this way. Do
:07:24. > :07:30.you believe that Mr Trump's state visit should go ahead? Well, he is
:07:31. > :07:33.the leader of America, so it does need to go ahead and we need to work
:07:34. > :07:37.with him. I believe Theresa has started in a positive manner was
:07:38. > :07:40.that she just needs to continue in that vein. If he comes to our
:07:41. > :07:46.country, he needs to respect the way we feel about things. But yes, he is
:07:47. > :07:50.the president, so he does need to come to the UK. There is some debate
:07:51. > :07:54.within Westminster as to where it is appropriate for him to speak to MPs,
:07:55. > :07:58.but it is right that he comes. But if he does come on a state visit,
:07:59. > :08:01.should he be granted what this country has always thought of as a
:08:02. > :08:07.great honour, which is a joint address to both Houses of
:08:08. > :08:10.Parliament? I haven't been an MP long enough to understand the
:08:11. > :08:15.protocol of where is the right location for him to do that, but I
:08:16. > :08:20.believe in the past, it has been the greatest leaders, when they have
:08:21. > :08:24.achieved great things globally, it is Westminster Hall. But there are a
:08:25. > :08:28.number of MPs saying that is not the most appropriate place and I am
:08:29. > :08:31.inclined to agree. You don't think he should be accorded the privilege
:08:32. > :08:36.of speaking to a joint session of Parliament? I think there are places
:08:37. > :08:39.where he can do that, but Westminster Hall is not yet the
:08:40. > :08:50.right place. Thank you for joining us.
:08:51. > :08:56.Steve, within 24 hours, we have seen the difficulty of becoming Donald
:08:57. > :09:00.Trump's best friend. On the one hand, it could have huge advantages,
:09:01. > :09:05.particularly for a Brexit Britain. On the other hand, if you are going
:09:06. > :09:10.to be his best friend, you don't have to give a running commentary on
:09:11. > :09:15.every major thing he does. Yeah. We have learned a bit about Theresa
:09:16. > :09:21.May, that when she has to produce a set piece speech which she has time
:09:22. > :09:25.to prepare, she can get it totally right and sometimes more than right.
:09:26. > :09:34.When she is faced with a fast-moving story, she is leaden footed and
:09:35. > :09:38.can't think quickly on her feet. We know, did she regret not saying
:09:39. > :09:42.more? Evidently she did, because we got a statement from the Downing
:09:43. > :09:46.Street spokesperson saying more. So she can't think quickly. She's going
:09:47. > :09:49.to have to think very quickly in response to some of the things he's
:09:50. > :09:54.going to be doing, because she will be asked about it all the time. It
:09:55. > :09:59.does highlight the wider danger that the assumption that the special
:10:00. > :10:03.relationship is always a safe and fertile place to be has been proven
:10:04. > :10:08.wrong before and I think it will be proven wrong big-time in this case.
:10:09. > :10:13.You're shaking your head. I don't see why we are responsible for
:10:14. > :10:16.American domestic policy. I am as appalled as the next person by what
:10:17. > :10:22.Donald Trump has done. He said he was going to do this, which was why
:10:23. > :10:25.I did not want Americans to vote for him. In fact, what he has
:10:26. > :10:30.implemented is much less than what he said he would do when he was
:10:31. > :10:36.campaigning. I have always felt that the campaigning Trump was the real
:10:37. > :10:39.Trump. But what he has done is actually constitutional. He has the
:10:40. > :10:45.executive power to issue this order. It is within the rules in terms of a
:10:46. > :10:49.class of aliens deemed to be a risk to the United States. It is a 90 day
:10:50. > :10:55.limited ban. The last president who did this was a Democrat president,
:10:56. > :10:59.President Carter. He did it in the aftermath of the Iranian crisis.
:11:00. > :11:03.Well, given the spate of terror attacks on American territory in
:11:04. > :11:11.recent years, you could argue that he meant well. I don't agree with
:11:12. > :11:15.Donald Trump. But have people from these countries that he has banned
:11:16. > :11:20.been involved in terrorist attacks? That is the absurdity. He has not
:11:21. > :11:23.included Egypt or Pakistan. But I don't remove everyone getting in
:11:24. > :11:26.such a state about President Carter. The reality is that it is a legal
:11:27. > :11:36.thing for him to do. I don't like it. But it is not my territory. It
:11:37. > :11:41.is illegal, because they have been given a right to remain by a judge
:11:42. > :11:46.in Brooklyn and another judging Alexandra. That is a different issue
:11:47. > :11:52.for people who have already gone through the vetting. I don't agree
:11:53. > :11:56.with this. However, I don't think it's reasonable to say that Theresa
:11:57. > :12:01.May, because she wants to do a deal with Donald Trump, I don't give is
:12:02. > :12:07.reasonable to say she have to agree with each of his policies. It is
:12:08. > :12:11.nonsense. But the issue, Janan, is not whether she needs to agree with
:12:12. > :12:17.him. The question is that she will be questioned about him all the time
:12:18. > :12:21.now. And although these are matters of domestic policy, the refugee
:12:22. > :12:27.policy is international. They speak to issues that affect Britain as
:12:28. > :12:31.well, and I would suggest that she will not get away with this
:12:32. > :12:35.anonymous statement from Downing Street. People will demand a she
:12:36. > :12:39.says something on the record. She would get away with it indefinitely.
:12:40. > :12:43.These situations will recur every time Donald Trump says or does
:12:44. > :12:48.something contentious. She will be pressed to this associate her
:12:49. > :12:52.administration from his. She will probably be in a better logistical
:12:53. > :12:57.situation to do so. She has spent a big chunk of the past 72 hours in
:12:58. > :13:01.the air. She flew from Washington to Ankara, than from Ankara to London.
:13:02. > :13:04.We don't have Air Force One, we don't have those frictionless
:13:05. > :13:08.communications with the ground. She would have been incommunicado for
:13:09. > :13:12.large periods of time when this story was breaking. That doesn't
:13:13. > :13:16.excuse the stiff response when she landed and issued a statement via
:13:17. > :13:20.Downing Street. But during that delay, she did have a plausible
:13:21. > :13:24.excuse. She has also got a much more tricky geopolitical situation than
:13:25. > :13:29.many other world leaders. She has to strike a favourable trade deal with
:13:30. > :13:33.the new US president. It is all very well people saying Justin Trudeau of
:13:34. > :13:36.Canada was much more vociferous in his criticism of Donald Trump. He is
:13:37. > :13:42.already in Nafta, he is not striking a new deal. For how long, we don't
:13:43. > :13:44.know. Exactly, he's trying to stay in Nafta, but he is in a less tricky
:13:45. > :13:49.situation than she is. Now, Theresa May's was the first
:13:50. > :13:51.foreign leader to meet President Trump and the visit
:13:52. > :13:54.was seen as quite a coup for the Prime Minister,
:13:55. > :13:56.keen for a new trading relationship with the United States
:13:57. > :13:58.in the wake of Brexit. The Prime Minister congratulated
:13:59. > :14:00.the new US President for his "stunning election victory"
:14:01. > :14:03.but might not have intended to be pictured walking
:14:04. > :14:05.through the White House with him That picture of Donald Trump helping
:14:06. > :14:09.Theresa May down the steps through the White House colonnade
:14:10. > :14:12.will be the enduring image Mrs May said the President
:14:13. > :14:20.told her he was "100% behind Nato". And for her part, the Prime Minister
:14:21. > :14:24.said she would work hard to make sure other Nato countries
:14:25. > :14:27.increased their defence spending It's been announced
:14:28. > :14:33.that there will be a new trade negotiation agreement,
:14:34. > :14:35.with high-level talks The hope is that this will lead
:14:36. > :14:40.to a new trade deal between the two countries as soon as
:14:41. > :14:45.Britain leaves the EU. Mr Trump said he believed "Brexit's
:14:46. > :14:47.going to be a wonderful thing". On Russia, Theresa May made clear
:14:48. > :14:50.to Donald Trump her continued
:14:51. > :14:56.backing for sanctions. And following the controversy over
:14:57. > :14:58.the President's support for torture, Mr Trump said he would defer
:14:59. > :15:01.to his Secretary of Defense, General James Mattis, who argues
:15:02. > :15:04.that the practice doesn't work. And I'm joined now by the former
:15:05. > :15:20.Ukip leader, Nigel Farage. Do you agree with Mr Trump's
:15:21. > :15:25.decision to ban Syrian refugees indefinitely from entering the
:15:26. > :15:29.United States? I agree with the concept of democracy, a point which
:15:30. > :15:33.appears to be missed by almost all commentators including the BBC. He
:15:34. > :15:37.was elected to get tough and say he would do everything in his power to
:15:38. > :15:45.protect America from infiltration by ISIS terrorists. There are seven
:15:46. > :15:51.countries on that list. He's entitled to do this. I didn't ask if
:15:52. > :15:57.he was entitled, I asked if agree with it. I do, because if you just
:15:58. > :16:00.look at what's happening in France and Germany, if you look at Angela
:16:01. > :16:06.Merkel's policy which was to allow virtually anyone in from anywhere,
:16:07. > :16:10.look what it led to. You said in 2013 there's a responsibility on all
:16:11. > :16:15.of us in the free west to help some of those people fleeing Syria
:16:16. > :16:20.literally in fear of their lives. That's the Christian community in
:16:21. > :16:23.virtually all of those country, it is almost too late because many have
:16:24. > :16:29.been wiped out but if you are looking for a genuine definition of
:16:30. > :16:34.a refugee, going back to 1951, it is someone in direct fear of
:16:35. > :16:38.persecution of their life because of their race, religion or beliefs. But
:16:39. > :16:42.you didn't talk about only Christians, and in January 2014 you
:16:43. > :16:46.said, I seem to recall it was Ukip who started the debate on allowing
:16:47. > :16:53.Syrian refugees, you seem to be in favour of allowing proper refugees
:16:54. > :17:01.into this country. If they can be defined. Mr Trump won't let any in.
:17:02. > :17:05.He is running American policy, not British policy. Since I made those
:17:06. > :17:09.comments, we have had the Angela Merkel madness and I think Trump's
:17:10. > :17:14.policy in many ways has been shaped by what Angela Merkel did. He is
:17:15. > :17:17.fully entitled to do this, and as far as we are concerned in this
:17:18. > :17:27.country, I would like to see extreme vetting. Since 9/11 can you name any
:17:28. > :17:32.terrorist event in the United States that has involved refugees that have
:17:33. > :17:36.been allowed into the country? No, in fact the terrorist events have
:17:37. > :17:41.been US citizens radicalised. When you have a problem already, why
:17:42. > :17:44.would you wish to add to it? I would remind you that of the eight people
:17:45. > :17:48.that committed those atrocities in Paris, five of them had got into
:17:49. > :17:54.Europe posing as refugees so there is an issue here. But perhaps not
:17:55. > :17:58.for America because it has the most rigorous and lengthy screening
:17:59. > :18:03.process in the world, especially for Syrians. You have to register with
:18:04. > :18:07.the UN agency for refugees, which then recommend certain names to
:18:08. > :18:11.America, they then go through biometric screening, database
:18:12. > :18:22.screening, intelligent screenings, including four separate intelligence
:18:23. > :18:29.agencies screening you. How more rigorous would you want it to be? It
:18:30. > :18:33.is much more rigorous than we are or the rest of Europe. This is why we
:18:34. > :18:36.have elections, so voters can make choices and they voted for Donald
:18:37. > :18:42.Trump to become president and he said he would put bans in place and
:18:43. > :18:45.then move towards extreme vetting. As far as the Syrians are concerned
:18:46. > :18:52.he's made that decision but that's what he was voted in fourth. Since
:18:53. > :18:57.you know him, you have met him, you are confident of his, I'm testing
:18:58. > :19:01.you on the logic of it. Not that he's democratically elected, I'm not
:19:02. > :19:04.asking about that, I'm trying to get the case, particularly since if you
:19:05. > :19:11.take the seven countries of which the ban applies for 19 days, again,
:19:12. > :19:14.of these seven countries, its citizens have not been involved in
:19:15. > :19:19.terrorist attacks in the United States. It would be a mistake to say
:19:20. > :19:22.it is just Muslim countries because the biggest Muslim countries in the
:19:23. > :19:25.world have not been included in this. The point is they have made
:19:26. > :19:31.this assessment, they bought themselves 90 days to think about
:19:32. > :19:37.the policy. This is exactly what Trump's voters would have wanted him
:19:38. > :19:42.to do. You said the President's rhetoric on immigrants made even you
:19:43. > :19:46.feel very uncomfortable. Because he started by saying there was a total
:19:47. > :19:51.ban, then amended it to say there would be vetting. My guess is that
:19:52. > :19:55.what he will do is try to genuinely help Syrian people and he will be
:19:56. > :20:02.talking about the creation of some safe zones. Let's see. He hasn't. We
:20:03. > :20:08.will see. I suspect something like that is coming down the trap. What
:20:09. > :20:14.advice did you give to the president and his advisers ahead of Theresa
:20:15. > :20:18.May's visit? That I wanted us to talk about trade and to give the
:20:19. > :20:22.Prime Minister the impression that actually... When she has been
:20:23. > :20:27.surrounded by her whole career by civil servants and politicians who
:20:28. > :20:31.say that everything takes five years or seven years or ten years, to make
:20:32. > :20:35.it clear to the Prime Minister that if there is will, these things can
:20:36. > :20:39.be done quickly. Isn't there a danger of a British Prime Minister
:20:40. > :20:44.who has to deal with the president of the United States, to Ally
:20:45. > :20:50.herself so closely with such an unpredictable, controversial
:20:51. > :20:54.president, banning Muslims in certain ways and refugees, building
:20:55. > :20:58.a war with Mexico, threatening trade was with other countries, thinking
:20:59. > :21:03.of ending sanctions against Russia? I missing something here, what is
:21:04. > :21:08.controversial about defending the Mexican border? Bill Clinton spoke
:21:09. > :21:13.in tough terms, George Bush built six miles of fence, and because it
:21:14. > :21:16.is Donald Trump there is uproar. So you think there is no risk of the
:21:17. > :21:20.British by Minister being the best friend of this type of president? I
:21:21. > :21:24.think there is no risk in putting together a trade deal and no risk in
:21:25. > :21:29.her being the bridge between America and the rest of Nato to say to Nato
:21:30. > :21:35.members if you don't pay your 2% he is serious so on those things there
:21:36. > :21:39.is no risk at all. It was clear from her Lancaster house speech that the
:21:40. > :21:43.Brexiteers in the Government had won pretty much every argument in terms
:21:44. > :21:51.of negotiations to come out. What you want from her? She was very good
:21:52. > :21:54.as Home Secretary, Tory party conferences, the Tory press saying
:21:55. > :21:59.this was the new Thatcher and she failed. She even failed to control
:22:00. > :22:03.immigration from outside the European Union so yes, it was a good
:22:04. > :22:07.speech and for many on the Eurosceptic side of the argument, I
:22:08. > :22:10.could scarcely believe that a British Prime Minister was saying
:22:11. > :22:17.things which I had been roundly abused and vilified for. But I have
:22:18. > :22:21.a feeling we may be in for a very frustrating 2017. The mood as I can
:22:22. > :22:25.see it in Brussels is that negotiating with Britain is not a
:22:26. > :22:29.priority, they are far more worried about Dutch elections, French
:22:30. > :22:34.elections, German elections and possibly even Italian elections. I
:22:35. > :22:37.worry that by the end of this year we may not have made much progress
:22:38. > :22:44.and that's why the Trump visit suddenly things brings into focus.
:22:45. > :22:48.What if by the middle of June, for argument 's sake, the Americans say
:22:49. > :22:52.OK we reached this position with the British, compromised on the tough
:22:53. > :22:58.stuff, food standards and things like that, we are ready to sign a
:22:59. > :23:02.deal now, and Theresa May is to say actually Mr Juncker says I cannot
:23:03. > :23:08.sign this until we leave. What will they do? They cannot throw us out,
:23:09. > :23:12.we are living anyway. But everybody agrees you can talk about the deal,
:23:13. > :23:17.maybe even do the heads of agreement but you cannot sign a treaty until
:23:18. > :23:21.we have left the EU. Let me predict that at the end of this year we will
:23:22. > :23:24.find a European Union who frankly don't want to talk to us and
:23:25. > :23:29.countries around the world that want to get on and do things and that
:23:30. > :23:33.will be the big tension for Mrs May over the course of this year. If the
:23:34. > :23:37.Prime Minister is giving you everything you want on Brexit, you
:23:38. > :23:41.agree that she's trying to get from your point of view the right things.
:23:42. > :23:46.If she delivers on that and get Brexit on the terms of which you
:23:47. > :23:51.approve, what's the point of Ukip? You could argue that about any
:23:52. > :23:56.political party. If we have achieved the goal that we set out to achieve,
:23:57. > :24:00.there are right now out there 4 million people who are Ukip
:24:01. > :24:05.loyalists. They are delighted that by voting Ukip we got a referendum,
:24:06. > :24:09.they will be even happier if they seek us leave the European Union and
:24:10. > :24:14.I think there is still a gap in British politics for a party that
:24:15. > :24:17.says it as it sees it, is not afraid by political correctness and is seen
:24:18. > :24:22.to be on the side of the little people, and that's why, with the
:24:23. > :24:27.Labour Party is fundamentally split, and it really is totally split over
:24:28. > :24:31.this European question, I think Ukip is in good shape. That proposition
:24:32. > :24:36.will be put to test at the Stoke Central by-election, one of Ukip's
:24:37. > :24:40.best prospects in the country. Some people call it the capital of
:24:41. > :24:47.Brexit. Labour is in chaos over Article 50, is picked a candidate to
:24:48. > :24:56.fight Stoke Central who has described Brexit is a pile of notes.
:24:57. > :25:00.If your successor, Paul Nuttall, cannot win the Stoke by-election,
:25:01. > :25:04.there's not much hope for you, is there? I think he will. I've always
:25:05. > :25:10.been told don't make predictions but I think he will win. If you doesn't
:25:11. > :25:15.it will be tough, we will still have our 4 million loyalists, but if it
:25:16. > :25:19.does we can actually see Labour are beatable in their heartlands and
:25:20. > :25:22.Ukip will be off to the second big stage. Nigel Farage, thank you for
:25:23. > :25:23.being with us. It's just gone 11.25,
:25:24. > :25:25.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:25:26. > :25:28.in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 15 minutes, I'll
:25:29. > :25:32.be talking to our political panel. First though, the Sunday
:25:33. > :25:41.Politics where you are. We've got a shorter segment
:25:42. > :25:48.for you this week, but ready to pack a lot in are our guests
:25:49. > :25:56.Clive Efford, Labour MP for Eltham, and Chris Philp, Conservative MP
:25:57. > :25:58.for Croydon South. Let's kick off with proposals
:25:59. > :26:02.to devolve more financial powers to the Mayor
:26:03. > :26:04.and the capital's boroughs. The suggestions are contained
:26:05. > :26:07.in the second report of the London Finance
:26:08. > :26:09.Commission, out this week. The first report, you may remember,
:26:10. > :26:12.happened under Mayor Boris Johnson. This one's gone further in what it's
:26:13. > :26:15.asking for: retention of income tax, maybe a share of VAT,
:26:16. > :26:18.as well as control of property taxes And it recommends looking
:26:19. > :26:22.at new taxes like a London tourism The commission chair
:26:23. > :26:26.is Tony Travers. What we're recommending that's
:26:27. > :26:28.different this time is that in the spirit of further devolution,
:26:29. > :26:30.which the Government itself has been talking about,
:26:31. > :26:32.the possibility of greater health devolution, skills and further
:26:33. > :26:36.education, possibly more transport devolution and so on,
:26:37. > :26:38.that you could begin not only to devolve property
:26:39. > :26:43.taxes fully to London, but go beyond that and take part
:26:44. > :26:47.of income tax or VAT and assign part That wouldn't mean that
:26:48. > :26:54.London set the tax rates, but they would keep part
:26:55. > :26:57.of the yield that was generated here and could therefore drive up
:26:58. > :27:00.the yield by pursuing particular economic policies that would make
:27:01. > :27:02.the City grow faster and therefore, London's boroughs and
:27:03. > :27:20.the mayor would keep more Chris Philp, an awful lot of detail
:27:21. > :27:25.in there but in principle anything you hear in there you wouldn't go
:27:26. > :27:29.and do, or do you guard against any of this stuff? I think the idea of
:27:30. > :27:33.devolution to London is a good idea, the one idea I didn't hear in the
:27:34. > :27:43.film was the idea of letting London keep some of its business rates or
:27:44. > :27:47.keep... What about some of the other ones income tax, VAT, it is getting
:27:48. > :27:50.a portion of it that is raised in London. I think the idea is to have
:27:51. > :27:55.a starting point that is fiscally neutral, and of some of these taxes
:27:56. > :27:57.grow, meaning the economy is growing, they generate more
:27:58. > :28:02.receipts, London would keep that growth as an incentive to London to
:28:03. > :28:06.help London grow. For me, business rates is the most sensible one
:28:07. > :28:19.because it is directly linked to encouraging business. The Chancellor
:28:20. > :28:22.has said that in the budget coming up this spring, he will be making a
:28:23. > :28:24.financial devolution offer to London and the Mayor of London, and I would
:28:25. > :28:28.certainly support that, particularly in this area of business rates.
:28:29. > :28:32.Clive Efford comedy you sign up to London has taken a big hit as a
:28:33. > :28:37.result of the Government's changes but I think this discussion is
:28:38. > :28:41.overdue because, I mean I know it is becoming a cliche to say in this
:28:42. > :28:47.post Brexit period, but London is a huge shop window for Britain, and
:28:48. > :28:52.what this report is talking about is giving London the resources to
:28:53. > :28:58.generate that economic activity that is so vital for the whole country,
:28:59. > :29:03.and not cutting off the important redistribution of taxes from the
:29:04. > :29:06.economic activity that is concentrated around London and the
:29:07. > :29:10.south-east. That is an important thing and it gives London the
:29:11. > :29:15.devolved power to be able to make those decisions that will drive that
:29:16. > :29:21.forwards. What do you say about tourism tax though, it dangerous? It
:29:22. > :29:25.has to be looked up, but I would be very careful about how we do it
:29:26. > :29:28.because we already have a very high rate of VAT compared with our
:29:29. > :29:35.European competitors, and what we want is more tourism to come here. I
:29:36. > :29:38.would look at possibly the Government on areas like hospitality
:29:39. > :29:43.and things like that, looking to be more competitive with their European
:29:44. > :29:49.partners, for instance it is half the rate in France, and bring more
:29:50. > :29:53.tourism in. To be clear from you, Chris, do you believe the Government
:29:54. > :29:58.is committed to going anywhere near some of this stuff? Stamp duty, for
:29:59. > :30:02.instance, you know how much is raised in the capital, why isn't a
:30:03. > :30:07.lot more of that retained? The list we have seen in the report is a very
:30:08. > :30:10.long list, there is a balance to strike so I think it's right London
:30:11. > :30:16.gets more control of its tax base, so things like business rates make
:30:17. > :30:18.sense. If you push it too far, as Clive was saying, you impede the
:30:19. > :30:23.Government's ability to help out other parts of the country, which do
:30:24. > :30:32.need help. It would also impede London and the vital infrastructure.
:30:33. > :30:37.He has said he will do this. You have to strike a balance between
:30:38. > :30:41.letting London keep a larger proportion of taxes raised here.
:30:42. > :30:44.That is right. But at the same time, you have to give the government
:30:45. > :30:48.financial firepower to look after the whole of the UK. As a London MP,
:30:49. > :30:51.I do want to see the balance shift towards London and I am confident
:30:52. > :30:54.that we will see that in spring budget.
:30:55. > :30:57.Talking of money, the mayor's budget proposals for next year
:30:58. > :30:59.are currently being pored over at City Hall.
:31:00. > :31:01.And there's been more talk about whether Sadiq Khan
:31:02. > :31:04.was as clear as he might have been when he promised to freeze fares.
:31:05. > :31:07.It did not, as it turned out, mean keeping all fares down,
:31:08. > :31:09.as those using trains and travelcards have found out.
:31:10. > :31:14.Back when he was running for office last year, this
:31:15. > :31:17.I've got a fully funded package to freeze fares...
:31:18. > :31:20.Over four years, so Londoners won't pay a penny more...
:31:21. > :31:27.But after winning the keys to City Hall, he clarified
:31:28. > :31:32.that the freeze would only apply to single fares and not travelcards.
:31:33. > :31:43.Travelcards cover all public transport in London,
:31:44. > :31:45.including suburban rail services, which are run by private companies
:31:46. > :31:52.The fares on those lines are set by the Government and this
:31:53. > :31:55.So, the mayor says, it's out of his hands.
:31:56. > :31:58.That, however, is not necessarily the impression that people got
:31:59. > :32:02.For example, in an article about his fares freeze,
:32:03. > :32:15.In fact, it now turns out that even
:32:16. > :32:18.Transport for London had assumed that meant a freeze in travelcards.
:32:19. > :32:21.Details emerged last week, when the MayorWatch blog got hold
:32:22. > :32:24.of a briefing document written by TfL, detailing how they had built
:32:25. > :32:28.a travelcard freeze into their costings of the policy.
:32:29. > :32:31.People did not accidentally come away with the impression
:32:32. > :32:34.that Sadiq was talking about freezing travelcards.
:32:35. > :32:36.He wrote an article in the Evening Standard
:32:37. > :32:38.where he cited the rising cost of travelcards, the sacrifices
:32:39. > :32:40.people needed to make on their food bills,
:32:41. > :32:42.their ability to feed their kids, the pressure caused
:32:43. > :32:45.He raised it repeatedly, the cost of travelcards
:32:46. > :32:48.and the impact it had on Londoners' income and disposable income.
:32:49. > :32:50.He engineered a situation where people thought that the fares
:32:51. > :32:55.freeze would encompass all transport fares in London, and it doesn't.
:32:56. > :32:58.And he's pulled away from it saying he didn't have the power,
:32:59. > :33:01.and this document proves that not only did he have the power
:33:02. > :33:03.and the money, but even people at Transport for London,
:33:04. > :33:06.who are being paid to monitor his manifesto,
:33:07. > :33:09.thought that a freeze on travelcards was something he had in mind.
:33:10. > :33:12.And the fact that TfL had put a figure on the cost of freezing
:33:13. > :33:16.travelcards suggests to some that despite by what the mayor says,
:33:17. > :33:22.He could make that decision and choose to use his
:33:23. > :33:24.transport funding to freeze or fares for Londoners.
:33:25. > :33:31.He was given advice on how much it would cost and how
:33:32. > :33:34.Questions have also been asked about a policy
:33:35. > :33:38.that appears on Sadiq.London, Mr Khan's website from when he was
:33:39. > :33:41.campaigning for office. It clearly says that bus fares would not be
:33:42. > :33:49.frozen in his first year in office, but cut, and that hasn't happened.
:33:50. > :33:50.In fact, that's not in the manifesto.
:33:51. > :33:53.I think that was in a sort of discussion paper
:33:54. > :33:56.When the mayor finally published his manifesto,
:33:57. > :34:01.it was very clear about freezing fares and going for a hopper ticket.
:34:02. > :34:04.The front page of the City Hall website clearly states
:34:05. > :34:06.that the mayor is freezing fares in 2017, and then gives
:34:07. > :34:09.details about exactly how it's going to apply.
:34:10. > :34:12.But it won't stop some arguing that there should have been this
:34:13. > :34:28.Do you think he should have been clearer, Clive? Let's be clear. He
:34:29. > :34:32.has frozen the fares for every feather which he receives the fare
:34:33. > :34:36.box. So all the fares he has control over, he has frozen in line with his
:34:37. > :34:43.promise. But he should have been clear that it is all fares. Even
:34:44. > :34:50.with travelcards, when he said about people struggling to say, he then
:34:51. > :34:55.didn't say we are going to freeze them. The challenge here is for the
:34:56. > :34:58.Government, who control the rail fares, to take the lead from the
:34:59. > :35:04.Mayor of London and freeze the fares. We are getting an appalling
:35:05. > :35:07.service. Don't forget, the Conservative mayoral candidate went
:35:08. > :35:12.into the mayoral election saying they were going to put London's
:35:13. > :35:17.fares up by 70%. But should the Labour candidate have been clear
:35:18. > :35:22.that he was only going to put up TfL fares? He can only put up the fares
:35:23. > :35:26.for which he has the powers of control. But Transport for London
:35:27. > :35:32.had the impression that he meant all fares as well. The figure that has
:35:33. > :35:35.been quoted is the figure that it would have cost TfL, had the
:35:36. > :35:40.Government frozen fares in line with the Mayor's freeze on fares. That is
:35:41. > :35:43.the 600 million figure that is being bandied around. So it is a bit
:35:44. > :35:45.dishonest to suggest that that figure would cover the cost of
:35:46. > :35:52.subsidising fares of private rail providers. Those be clear. Sadiq
:35:53. > :35:56.Khan grossly misled Londoners. What he said during the mayoral election
:35:57. > :36:01.campaign, he said, no ifs, no buts, no one will pay a penny more.
:36:02. > :36:05.Nothing about travelcards or single fares. No one will pay a penny more
:36:06. > :36:09.is what he said. It is not true. But he has gone on after the mayoral
:36:10. > :36:12.election, where he is trying to excuse what he has done. He claimed
:36:13. > :36:13.he didn't have the power over these other fares. He claimed it was
:36:14. > :36:31.outside of his power to do a complete their freeze.
:36:32. > :36:33.He has also made it clear since then that he knows that theoretically, he
:36:34. > :36:36.could pay. Why didn't you point this out before the election? We all
:36:37. > :36:38.pointed out that what he was promising was undeliverable, and he
:36:39. > :36:41.got into a strap about it. For what reason? For financial reasons. He
:36:42. > :36:43.said after the election that he didn't have the power to do a
:36:44. > :36:47.complete freeze. This request by London travel watch shows that TfL
:36:48. > :36:51.gave him advice that it was possible. It shows it can be done,
:36:52. > :36:56.because it was done with the help of government money which froze the
:36:57. > :37:01.rail element the previous year. He couldn't assume that that element is
:37:02. > :37:05.going to be there, could he? If he had chosen to, he could have used
:37:06. > :37:09.City Hall money to have a complete their freeze. That is what the TfL
:37:10. > :37:15.paper advised him he could do. He chose not to do with that. He chose
:37:16. > :37:19.not to keep his promise and tried to cover it up by claiming it was
:37:20. > :37:24.impossible. Was he being disingenuous or was he ignorant when
:37:25. > :37:27.he covered it up? I can't speak for whether he was ignorant on it, but
:37:28. > :37:31.it is evident that when you make a promise about freezing fares, you
:37:32. > :37:35.can only freeze those over which you have control. The increase on rail
:37:36. > :37:38.cards is a government decision. It is for the Government to follow the
:37:39. > :37:49.lead of the London mayor and freeze fares. The overground service is
:37:50. > :37:52.part of TfL and it is frozen. If the Government were to hand over the
:37:53. > :38:01.franchises of suburban rail to Mayor Khan, those fares would be frozen.
:38:02. > :38:05.So you go and bring your friend. Sadiq Khan has now accepted he could
:38:06. > :38:07.have frozen these fares if he had chosen to spend City Hall money on
:38:08. > :38:09.it. He chose to break his promise. Now it's time for the rest
:38:10. > :38:20.of the political news in 60 seconds. The cost of West Ham's London
:38:21. > :38:23.stadium, almost entirely paid for by the taxpayer,
:38:24. > :38:25.is to be investigated by City Hall. Mayor Sadiq Khan said "We need
:38:26. > :38:28.to find out how on earth the transformation costs
:38:29. > :38:30.were allowed to skyrocket, whether appropriate checks were made
:38:31. > :38:32.before key decisions were made." The cost of the building has already
:38:33. > :38:39.reached more than ?753 million. Staying with football,
:38:40. > :38:41.and Lewisham Council has abandoned the controversial compulsory
:38:42. > :38:43.purchase of land around Millwall FC had argued
:38:44. > :38:48.the development could Lewisham Council said,
:38:49. > :38:52."Any decision that the council may take in the future will be
:38:53. > :38:58.a wholly new decision." A very high air pollution warning
:38:59. > :39:02.has been issued for London for the first time under
:39:03. > :39:05.a new alert system. Warnings are being issued
:39:06. > :39:07.at bus stops, roadside signs and tube stations,
:39:08. > :39:26.under the new system set up Millwall season-ticket holder. But
:39:27. > :39:31.we are not going to talk about that. Air pollution, very high alerts.
:39:32. > :39:36.What difference will this make? It will draw public attention to the
:39:37. > :39:41.problem we have, 9500 premature deaths a year due to air pollution.
:39:42. > :39:43.So this is an important issue. We have got to review things like
:39:44. > :39:49.decisions over future road-building and said, is this going to make air
:39:50. > :39:55.quality worse and if it is, we have to rethink the decision. It is an
:39:56. > :40:00.issue that is going. Just telling us that it is high, does that serve a
:40:01. > :40:07.purpose? I agree that it is a problem. My wife is asthma --
:40:08. > :40:10.asthmatic and I have three-year-old twins. Governments of both colours
:40:11. > :40:14.have encouraged diesel cars over the years via the tax system. That has
:40:15. > :40:18.been catastrophic for the country and for London, so we need action to
:40:19. > :40:24.get those diesel cars off our roads. Would you support that? We do need
:40:25. > :40:31.to review the use of diesel vehicles and yes, we need to prioritise
:40:32. > :40:38.air-pollution. Thank you for being here.
:40:39. > :40:42.Welcome back and let's get back to Donald Trump's travel ban
:40:43. > :40:47.on refugees and citizens from seven mainly Muslim countries.
:40:48. > :40:51.Earlier, the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, told ITV that a state
:40:52. > :40:53.visit by President Trump to the UK should not go ahead
:40:54. > :41:06.I think it would be totally wrong for him to be coming here while that
:41:07. > :41:10.situation is going on. He has to be challenged on this. So until the ban
:41:11. > :41:15.is lifted, you don't think he should come? I am not happy about him
:41:16. > :41:20.coming here until the ban is lifted. Look at what is happening with those
:41:21. > :41:25.countries. What will be the long term effect of this on the rest of
:41:26. > :41:30.the world? Is this state visit going to become a matter of huge political
:41:31. > :41:34.debate in this country? It would be anyway, but it is a temporary ban,
:41:35. > :41:38.so Jeremy Corbyn is on safe territory. It will be over by April
:41:39. > :41:43.and he is not due to come until summer. But there are three bands.
:41:44. > :41:48.There is the 90 day ban on people coming from the southern countries.
:41:49. > :41:52.There is the 120 day ban on refugees from anywhere in the world, and
:41:53. > :41:57.there is the indefinite ban on Syrian refugees. So there may still
:41:58. > :42:02.be some bans in place. But bear in mind the number of Syrian refugees
:42:03. > :42:05.and refugees from around the world that President Obama took over his
:42:06. > :42:09.eight years. There were years when it was not even up to 50 Syrian
:42:10. > :42:15.refugees that were taken since the civil war has started. This is an
:42:16. > :42:21.ongoing American policy. 12,500 Syrian refugees have come in the
:42:22. > :42:29.last year. Before that, it was a hundred and sometimes under 50. But
:42:30. > :42:32.they are reasonable numbers now, although not something America
:42:33. > :42:38.couldn't absorb. Donald Trump is discovering that being a president
:42:39. > :42:42.is different from being a business man. And Jeremy Corbyn has to learn
:42:43. > :42:46.the art of leadership, having been a backbench MP, and has struggled to
:42:47. > :42:50.do it, as we are about to discuss with article 50. With this, you have
:42:51. > :42:55.to dramatise the politics of this, and this is what he has done with
:42:56. > :43:00.that statement. Most controversial ever state visit now? I would
:43:01. > :43:05.imagine so. Even regardless of any opposition from the opposition to
:43:06. > :43:10.trump's physical presence in the streets, the presence of
:43:11. > :43:13.demonstrators will be an international new story. If trump's
:43:14. > :43:17.demands for the details of the visit are quite as extreme and as picky as
:43:18. > :43:21.some of the Sunday papers have suggested, that could also be the
:43:22. > :43:26.source of controversy. What do you have in mind? Isn't he anxious that
:43:27. > :43:30.only certain members of the Royal Family turn up? He doesn't want a
:43:31. > :43:38.one-on-one with Prince Charles. Who would, though! Some people may be
:43:39. > :43:42.sympathetic on that. It is the one subject where he is in line with
:43:43. > :43:48.British opinion. Playing golf in front of the Queen may be a higher
:43:49. > :43:50.priority. We have to be realistic. Given the other people from around
:43:51. > :43:54.the world that the Queen has played host to, like the Chinese president
:43:55. > :43:59.and Saudi kings and the like, we have had a lot worse come to visit
:44:00. > :44:05.than Donald Trump. Brexit - how serious our neighbour's problems on
:44:06. > :44:09.this? Very serious, but they often are with Europe. Labour were splits
:44:10. > :44:14.when we joined in the 70s, and still won general elections, in 1974 and
:44:15. > :44:18.1975. There were all over the place in terms of the single currency.
:44:19. > :44:19.Blair said one thing one day and the opposite the next day. Brown did the
:44:20. > :44:33.same. Brown usually set the opposite of
:44:34. > :44:37.what Blair said! They won landslide because they have the political
:44:38. > :44:39.skills to put all of the pressure on the major government, even though
:44:40. > :44:44.their position on the single currency was the same as major's. It
:44:45. > :44:50.is about with Europe the art of leadership. You have to be a
:44:51. > :44:54.political conjuror, you have to dissemble authoritative leak when
:44:55. > :44:57.you lead a divided party over Europe, and Jeremy Corbyn to his
:44:58. > :45:03.personal credit cannot dissemble, but he's not an individual person on
:45:04. > :45:08.this. He's leading a split party in danger of falling apart, and you
:45:09. > :45:13.need the skills of a political conjurer. Clearly self-evidently
:45:14. > :45:16.he's not displaying it because we are talking about the chaotic split
:45:17. > :45:20.which will manifest itself in that vote on Article 50. Labour and the
:45:21. > :45:25.SNP and the Lib Dems too I would have thought will all put amendments
:45:26. > :45:31.down to the short Article 50 piece of legislation. Do they have any
:45:32. > :45:35.chance of succeeding? No substantial world is changing amendments. I
:45:36. > :45:40.don't think Theresa May has much to worry about actually. I think if
:45:41. > :45:44.anything the reason she's pushed the legal appeal is that it helps her to
:45:45. > :45:48.have a big chunk of the media and a big chunk of public opinion worrying
:45:49. > :45:53.that the popular will of last year is in danger of being overturned and
:45:54. > :45:59.so even if it was a completely hopeless legal appeal, it generated
:46:00. > :46:02.headlines for a week that as an incumbent Prime Minister trying to
:46:03. > :46:06.execute believe vote suits you politically. I think it is a much
:46:07. > :46:10.bigger problem for Labour, we've already seen some Shadow Cabinet
:46:11. > :46:14.issues in the previous week. You have got to remember it's not just a
:46:15. > :46:21.majority of Labour MPs that want to stay in the European Union, but a
:46:22. > :46:24.majority of Labour constituencies, and a majority of labour macro
:46:25. > :46:29.voters wanted to stay as well so we have three lines of division. One
:46:30. > :46:32.amendment that might get through if it was called, and it is in the
:46:33. > :46:37.hands of the Deputy speaker who will be chairing these debates, and that
:46:38. > :46:41.will be an amendment that said regardless of how the Europeans
:46:42. > :46:46.treat our citizens in Europe, all EU citizens here will be afforded full
:46:47. > :46:54.rights to remain. That might get through. It may indeed and lots of
:46:55. > :46:59.backbench MPs would backpack. We all know there will not be mass
:47:00. > :47:03.deportations, it is not legal, it won't happen, it is simply a
:47:04. > :47:07.negotiating tactic. I agree with those who say you shouldn't be using
:47:08. > :47:12.people as a negotiating tactic, but the reality as it is the EU leaders
:47:13. > :47:16.that are doing that because it's already been offered. The remain as
:47:17. > :47:21.should be attacking the EU governments for not offering that in
:47:22. > :47:25.return. Article 50 is the easy bit for her. I agree with other members
:47:26. > :47:29.of the panel that she will get it through and the court case almost
:47:30. > :47:33.helps her by getting an easy journey through Parliament, then it gets
:47:34. > :47:38.really difficult. All of this has been a preamble and once she begins
:47:39. > :47:43.that nightmarish negotiation, there will be opportunities for a smart
:47:44. > :47:50.opposition to make quite a lot of the turmoil to come. Whether Labour
:47:51. > :47:56.are capable of that, let's wait and see. The divisions in Labour are
:47:57. > :48:00.nightmarish for them but by no means unprecedented. Arguably it was much
:48:01. > :48:05.more complicated in the early 1970s when you had Titans on either side,
:48:06. > :48:14.big ex-cabinet ministers... Tony Benn... Michael Foot, they were all
:48:15. > :48:19.at it. The fundamental issue of in or out, and they won two elections,
:48:20. > :48:25.so you have got to be really clever. But also how money more Labour MPs
:48:26. > :48:27.will resign. We shall find out this week.
:48:28. > :48:30.The Daily Politics is back tomorrow at midday and all
:48:31. > :48:34.I'll be back here on BBC one next week.
:48:35. > :49:07.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:49:08. > :49:22.a free five-a-side tournament that's for everyone.
:49:23. > :49:26.For more information, go to the Get Inspired website.