12/02/2017

:00:39. > :00:42.Commons Speaker John Bercow is accused of compromising his

:00:43. > :00:45.impartiality by revealing he voted Remain in last year's EU referendum.

:00:46. > :00:54.The EU Withdrawal Bill clears its first Parliamentary hurdle.

:00:55. > :00:57.But will the House of Lords be quite so accommodating?

:00:58. > :01:03.Labour's Leader in the Lords joins us live.

:01:04. > :01:08.And we report from Stoke-on-Trent ahead of a crucial by-election

:01:09. > :01:10.later this month, where Ukip is looking to give

:01:11. > :01:16.In London this week, as City Hall unveils initiatives

:01:17. > :01:21.to tackle air pollution, a clear example is being

:01:22. > :01:33.And with me a political panel who frequently like to compromise

:01:34. > :01:39.Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Janan Ganesh.

:01:40. > :01:45.I'll be trying to keep them in order during the course of the programme.

:01:46. > :01:48.So, Commons Speaker John Bercow has insisted his ability

:01:49. > :01:54.to act impartially is not damaged by reports that he voted to Remain

:01:55. > :02:01.The Sunday Telegraph reveals that Speaker Bercow revealed his views

:02:02. > :02:03.in front of an audience of students at Reading University

:02:04. > :02:20.This may not be popular with some people in this audience -

:02:21. > :02:25.I thought it was better to stay in the European Union than not,

:02:26. > :02:28.partly for economic reason, being part of a big trade bloc,

:02:29. > :02:33.and partly because I think we're in a world of power blocs,

:02:34. > :02:35.and I think for all the weaknesses and deficiencies

:02:36. > :02:38.of the European Union, it is better to be part of that big

:02:39. > :02:49.Speaker Bercow speaking at Reading University earlier this month. Does

:02:50. > :02:54.he not care is this I get that impression, he knows perfectly well,

:02:55. > :02:57.it states he has to be particularly -- Parliamentary neural. Whether

:02:58. > :03:02.there are going to be enough votes to force him out, the question, the

:03:03. > :03:07.last speaker wept out with the 20 vote against him. You yes to have

:03:08. > :03:14.the command of the support across the House. There is a Deputy

:03:15. > :03:23.Speaker, waiting, who would be superb. I think even the people who

:03:24. > :03:29.pretend to support Macis have had enough -- Speaker Bercow have had

:03:30. > :03:32.enough of his ways. The reason I ask whether he care, he didn't just tell

:03:33. > :03:36.the students that he voted to Remain, he then gave them a running

:03:37. > :03:43.commentary on all the issues that will be part of the Brexit

:03:44. > :03:46.negotiations, workers' rights, immigration, trade policy, everyone

:03:47. > :03:51.maternity leave got a hat tip from him. He would be a very well

:03:52. > :03:56.prepared Brexit minister if attendance needs a colleague --

:03:57. > :04:01.David Davis needs a colleague. I don't think this story makes his

:04:02. > :04:04.position untenable, what does is the wired pattern of behaviour of

:04:05. > :04:12.excessive candour on his political views, going back years, this is a

:04:13. > :04:19.guy who when the Queen visited Parliament described her as theical

:04:20. > :04:23.lied scope Queen. He had a running argument with David Cameron. We know

:04:24. > :04:33.his views on Brexit, we know his views on Donald Trump. . He has

:04:34. > :04:38.given interviews, none of the views are illegitimate but the candour

:04:39. > :04:42.which they are expressed with is scrupulous. Given Lyndsay Hoyle is a

:04:43. > :04:47.class accuse. He is the Deputy Speaker. And a fairly ready

:04:48. > :04:52.replacement, whether there is more of a movement to say, maybe not

:04:53. > :04:56.force Bercow out but acknowledge he has had a few years in the job and

:04:57. > :05:02.the question of successor ship comes into play. Has he concluded he is

:05:03. > :05:06.untouchable? What I can definitely say, is that he is determined to

:05:07. > :05:10.fight this one out, and not go of his own volition, so if he goes he

:05:11. > :05:17.will have to be forced out. He wants to stay. Which will be tough. It

:05:18. > :05:20.will be tough. Likely as things stand. I would say this, I speak to

:05:21. > :05:25.someone who likes the way he has brought the House of Commons to

:05:26. > :05:28.life, held ministers to account, forced them into explain thing,

:05:29. > :05:32.whenever there is a topical issue you know it will be in the House of

:05:33. > :05:39.Commons. He has changed that. He has. Time has been courageous, Ied a

:05:40. > :05:46.mire the way he has been a speaker. I would say this, during the

:05:47. > :05:49.referendum campaign, he asked me Nick Clegg, and Peter Hitchens to

:05:50. > :05:54.debate Brexit if his constituency. It was a packed out meeting. He

:05:55. > :05:59.chaired it. I said don't you want to join in? He didn't. He showed no

:06:00. > :06:06.desire to join in, he was impartial. He goes out to universities and kind

:06:07. > :06:12.of demyth GCSEs Parliament by speaking to them in a way, he

:06:13. > :06:19.doesn't gets credit for it and stays on after and drinks with them.

:06:20. > :06:24.Sometimes he, you know, it is clearly a mistake to have gone into

:06:25. > :06:27.his views retrospectively on that referendum campaign, I don't think

:06:28. > :06:31.that, did he try and stop Article 50 from being triggered in the House of

:06:32. > :06:35.Commons? That would be a scandal. Even that would be beyond him.

:06:36. > :06:41.Briefly, yes or no, could you imagine Betty Boothroyd behaving

:06:42. > :06:45.like that? Not at all. None of the recent speakers I could imagine

:06:46. > :06:48.doing that. It is good he is different.

:06:49. > :06:53.The bill that will allow the government to trigger Article 50

:06:54. > :06:54.and begin Brexit negotiations was voted through

:06:55. > :06:59.Many MPs were in a difficult position - unsure whether to vote

:07:00. > :07:00.with their conscience, their constituency,

:07:01. > :07:03.Europe, once such a divisive issue for the Conservatives,

:07:04. > :07:06.is now causing major divisions inside the Labour Party.

:07:07. > :07:11.So, let's have a look what happened in a bit more detail:

:07:12. > :07:13.Thanks to academic research carried out since the referendum,

:07:14. > :07:15.we now have estimates of how each individual constituency voted.

:07:16. > :07:21.It's thought that 410 constituencies voted Leave.

:07:22. > :07:29.On Wednesday night, the EU Notification of Withdrawal Bill

:07:30. > :07:31.was voted through by the House of Commons.

:07:32. > :07:40.The bill left the Labour Party divided.

:07:41. > :07:42.Jeremy Corbyn told his MPs to respect the result

:07:43. > :07:44.of the referendum and vote for the government's bill -

:07:45. > :07:48.But 52 Labour MPs defied Mr Corbyn's thee-line whip

:07:49. > :08:04.That's about a fifth of the Parliamentary Labour Party.

:08:05. > :08:06.Of those 52 Labour MPs who voted against the bill,

:08:07. > :08:08.the majority, 45 of them, represent seats that voted Remain.

:08:09. > :08:11.However, seven Labour MPs voted against the Article 50 Bill,

:08:12. > :08:13.even though their constituents voted Leave in the referendum.

:08:14. > :08:15.The Conservative Party were much more united.

:08:16. > :08:18.The vast majority of Tory MPs, 320 of them, voted for the bill.

:08:19. > :08:20.Just one Conservative MP, Ken Clarke, voted against it.

:08:21. > :08:22.His constituency, Rushcliffe in Nottinghamshire, voted Remain.

:08:23. > :08:24.The bill will now go to the House of Lords -

:08:25. > :08:38.peers will start debating it on Monday the 20th of February.

:08:39. > :08:40.Joining me now is Matthew Goodwin, politics professor at

:08:41. > :08:43.He's got a book out next month called

:08:44. > :08:45.Brexit: Why Britain Voted To Leave The European Union.

:08:46. > :08:53.Welcome to the programme. Has Brexit, how you voted in the

:08:54. > :08:57.referendum and your continuing attitudes toward it, is that now

:08:58. > :09:03.becoming the new dividing line in British politics? I think it

:09:04. > :09:06.certainly is contributing to a new dividing line, in western politics

:09:07. > :09:10.more generally, we know over the last ten years, that the old left

:09:11. > :09:15.and right division has been making way for a new division, between

:09:16. > :09:18.essentially social liberals and Conservative, and Brexit was a, an

:09:19. > :09:23.incident a moment that really reflected that new dividing line, so

:09:24. > :09:29.it wasn't just the case that Brexit has cut across Labour's base, it is

:09:30. > :09:34.that dividing line, that deeper division is cutting across social

:09:35. > :09:38.democracies more generally. Is there a possibility, no higher than that,

:09:39. > :09:43.that it will reShane our party politics? I think it is too early to

:09:44. > :09:46.know whether this is a fundamental long-term realignment. If we look at

:09:47. > :09:52.what is happening in local by-election, what is happening at

:09:53. > :09:59.by-elections, pictures a bit mixed but if you look at how some of the

:10:00. > :10:03.Labour vote is responding, I think that potentially reflects the

:10:04. > :10:07.possibility of a terminal decline for the Labour Party, it is going to

:10:08. > :10:11.be incredibly difficult for Labour to win these voters back, these are

:10:12. > :10:15.traditional working class, socially Conservative voters who are leaving

:10:16. > :10:19.the party, don't forget, since the 1997 general election. It is not

:10:20. > :10:24.just because of the referendum. If that was the case, Labour would

:10:25. > :10:28.become more a party of the Metropolitan areas, and less of a

:10:29. > :10:33.party outside of these area, is that what you are saying? What we are S

:10:34. > :10:38.seeing across the west can social democracy that retrenchment into the

:10:39. > :10:42.cosmopolitan, Metropolitan city area, university towns, you can

:10:43. > :10:46.seeing in many European states populist right parties filling the

:10:47. > :10:52.traditional socialist area, why are they doing that? Because they are

:10:53. > :10:56.offering two message, economic and cultural protectionism. Social

:10:57. > :10:59.Democrats are clinging to that economic protectionism but not

:11:00. > :11:03.saying much about migration and multiculturalism and that sort of

:11:04. > :11:06.stuff. Are there deeper forces at work than Jeremy Corbyn? He often

:11:07. > :11:11.gets the blame for what is happening to the Labour Party now, but if you

:11:12. > :11:18.look the way the Greek socialist party has been wiped out. The German

:11:19. > :11:22.Social Democrats are in trouble. The Italian socialist party has lost a

:11:23. > :11:27.referendum. The French socialist are coming close to being wiped out on

:11:28. > :11:31.April 23rd, Labour's problems, are part of a much wider problem of

:11:32. > :11:35.social democracy S Jeremy Corbyn is a surface problem, what I mean by

:11:36. > :11:39.that is you could replace him tosh with another leader, they would

:11:40. > :11:46.still have this fundamental tension within the electorate. They are

:11:47. > :11:48.trying to appeal to two differenter reconcilable groups of voters who

:11:49. > :11:53.think differently about the key issues of the day. It is very

:11:54. > :12:00.difficult for any centre left party now to assemble the kinds of

:12:01. > :12:03.coalitionses we saw in the '90s with Clinton and Blair and Schroeder.

:12:04. > :12:09.Those days are gone. Does that explain why it is now Labour, rather

:12:10. > :12:13.than the Conservatives, historically the party divided over the European

:12:14. > :12:18.Union, does all of that help to explain why its Labour that now

:12:19. > :12:24.seems, disunited over the EU? I think so, I think also that the

:12:25. > :12:28.issue of Brexit, and the EU, is so immatly wrapped up with that issue

:12:29. > :12:33.of immigration, if you look at who has been abandoned Labour since 2015

:12:34. > :12:39.or the late 90s, the one thing those voters share is a rejection of the

:12:40. > :12:43.so-called liberal consensus on EU membership and mass immigration. It

:12:44. > :12:48.is difficult for any Labour lead eer co-bin or Clive Lewis on Dan Jarvis,

:12:49. > :12:52.to bring those voters back unless they are going to move on that

:12:53. > :12:57.cultural terrain. If they are not, they may not go to Ukip, they might

:12:58. > :12:58.go to somewhere more difficult for Labour which is political apathy.

:12:59. > :13:01.Thank you for that. Attention now shifts to the House

:13:02. > :13:04.of Lords where peers will begin scrutinising the EU Withdrawal Bill

:13:05. > :13:07.in just over a week. Brexit Secretary David Davis urged

:13:08. > :13:10.the Lords "to do its patriotic duty" and resist the urge to tinker

:13:11. > :13:12.with the legislation. Former minister Oliver Letwin

:13:13. > :13:14.went one further - mooting the possibility

:13:15. > :13:16.of the abolition of the Lords if it sought to frustrate

:13:17. > :13:18.the bill in any way. Here he is posing the question

:13:19. > :13:26.in the Commons on Thursday. Would he find time, in government

:13:27. > :13:29.time for a debate, should the other place seek to delay beyond the end

:13:30. > :13:32.of March the passage of our accession to Article 50, for this

:13:33. > :13:35.House to discuss the possibility of either the abolition or full-scale

:13:36. > :13:45.reform of the other place? And Oliver Letwin joins

:13:46. > :13:58.me now from Dorset. Welcome back to the programme Mr Let

:13:59. > :14:02.win. Before we come on to the Lord's, can I get your thoughts on a

:14:03. > :14:06.matter that has been making the news this morning and John Bercow's

:14:07. > :14:11.remarks about being a remain voter an giving something of a running

:14:12. > :14:16.commentary on various Brexit issues, has he sqloefr stepped the mark as

:14:17. > :14:24.speaker? -- overstepped the mark. I think this is slightly a fuss about

:14:25. > :14:27.nothing. Every person who thinks about politics will have had some

:14:28. > :14:31.opinion about great matters like Brexit, and I really don't see any

:14:32. > :14:37.particular reason why his opinion shouldn't be known after the fact.

:14:38. > :14:41.I, I was there throughout the five days of the Brexit debate, and I

:14:42. > :14:46.have to say, I thought he was pretty scrupulously fair in the way he

:14:47. > :14:49.handled the House, so, I, I don't really share the view that there is

:14:50. > :14:54.some terrible thing that has been revealed this weekend. Let me come

:14:55. > :15:00.on to what we are here to talk about, which is the Lords. Why have

:15:01. > :15:04.you raised the threat of the abolition of the Lord for doing its

:15:05. > :15:12.job of scrutinising what is coming out the Commons? Well, you know,

:15:13. > :15:16.Andrew, this question of the job of the House of Lords and scrutiny, has

:15:17. > :15:22.to be looked at carefully. There are all sorts of bills that come out the

:15:23. > :15:26.House of Commons which are detailed things that relate to, finance, and

:15:27. > :15:31.expenditure, and the criminal law, and all that sort of thing, and all

:15:32. > :15:35.of that, I admire the work that the House of Lords does, as you say

:15:36. > :15:41.scrutinising and we shouldn't use that word loosely, it means looking

:15:42. > :15:46.carefully at the detail, line by line of complicated legislation,

:15:47. > :15:50.hundreds of Paps in some cases, and spotting, using the considerable

:15:51. > :15:54.expertise many, not all be many of the peers have, in any given field,

:15:55. > :15:58.to identify things where the Commons has got it wrong in the sense that

:15:59. > :16:02.the legislation wouldn't achieve what the Government of the day is

:16:03. > :16:07.seeking to make it achieve. That is a serious proper role for an Upper

:16:08. > :16:11.House and the House of Lords performs it pretty

:16:12. > :16:22.Now this is a very different case. This is a two clause bill. The first

:16:23. > :16:28.clause which is the operative clause says the Prime Minister should go

:16:29. > :16:34.ahead and sign... I understand all that. We haven't got that much time,

:16:35. > :16:41.this is becoming a monologue. There is nothing to scrutinise, Andrew.

:16:42. > :16:45.There were plenty of amendments put before the Commons, none of them got

:16:46. > :16:49.through, it is true. There are eight Labour amendments in the Lords, are

:16:50. > :16:54.you resigned to this bill coming back to the Commons with amendments?

:16:55. > :16:58.No, it should not come back with amendments. There were hundreds of

:16:59. > :17:01.amendments literally put down in the House of Commons, they were all

:17:02. > :17:06.drunk. They were all trying one way or another to derail the process.

:17:07. > :17:13.This is a binary issue, should Theresa May sign the withdrawal or

:17:14. > :17:19.not? What should the Commons do? The Commons has now voted in favour of

:17:20. > :17:27.it. Node do should tolerate and unelected chamber forcing the

:17:28. > :17:31.British people... The people voted in a referendum and the Commons

:17:32. > :17:36.voted. The matter is now signed and sealed and should not be derailed by

:17:37. > :17:41.the House of Lords. On Labour amendment wants confirmation that

:17:42. > :17:44.when it is done, the potential Brexit agreement will be put before

:17:45. > :17:50.parliament before any vote in the European Parliament, that has been

:17:51. > :17:55.an agreed principle, what is wrong with that amendments? The government

:17:56. > :17:58.has already agreed there will be a vote, but actually, what the

:17:59. > :18:03.amendments were seeking was to give the Commons a further vote on

:18:04. > :18:06.whether we actually leave or not. That is already decided. Neither the

:18:07. > :18:12.House of Lords nor anybody else has a right in my view, despite the fact

:18:13. > :18:17.I was a remain, to what the will of the British people. Nobody should

:18:18. > :18:21.think an unelected chamber should now try to change the course of

:18:22. > :18:27.British history by asserting amendments in a very effective on

:18:28. > :18:29.clause bill which says go ahead and trigger Article 50. Are you

:18:30. > :18:33.concerned that amendments by the Lords which would then have to go

:18:34. > :18:40.back to the Commons for consideration, are you concerned

:18:41. > :18:45.that could derail or delay the Prime Minister's timetable for Article 50?

:18:46. > :18:50.Yes, exactly. That would be the result of a prolonged bout of

:18:51. > :18:53.ping-pong between the two houses, or much worse, if the House of Lords

:18:54. > :18:58.failed to give way and the Parliament act had to be used. It

:18:59. > :19:02.would really be intolerable. It is not good for our country. Those of

:19:03. > :19:08.us who voted remain would prefer for that not to happen. The whole

:19:09. > :19:12.country -- it is important for the whole country that this happens in a

:19:13. > :19:17.rapid way and allowing the government free rein to negotiate,

:19:18. > :19:21.that is surely in all our advantages? Deed think any efforts

:19:22. > :19:26.to abolish the House of Lords, an issue you have raised, does that

:19:27. > :19:33.make it easier because your friend David Cameron stuffed the upper

:19:34. > :19:37.chamber with donors, lapdogs and lingerie designers? I was among

:19:38. > :19:41.those who advocated for many years wholesale reform of the House of

:19:42. > :19:46.Lords, to turn it into a serious elected second chamber. I think we

:19:47. > :19:51.should have an upper house which commands legitimacy. This is a

:19:52. > :19:56.second issue. Here we have not got such a House and it seems to be very

:19:57. > :19:59.clear that it should not seek to derail on delay the action which has

:20:00. > :20:04.been mandated by the referendum, agreed by the House of Commons, and

:20:05. > :20:09.what we want to see now is a smooth orderly effect for this bill, so it

:20:10. > :20:15.becomes law and Theresa May can go ahead and negotiate on our behalf.

:20:16. > :20:18.One more question on the process, if the Lords to amend the bill and it

:20:19. > :20:24.goes back to the Commons and the Commons sends these amendments back

:20:25. > :20:31.again, take them out, how long could this ping-pong between the two

:20:32. > :20:35.chambers go on in your experience? It is a very, very interesting and

:20:36. > :20:39.complicated question with the clerks of the two ends of the Palace of

:20:40. > :20:45.Westminster not always agreeing about this. But through certain

:20:46. > :20:48.machinations of slightly changing amendments as they go, in my

:20:49. > :20:52.experience this could carry on for an awful long time if clever people,

:20:53. > :20:55.and there are plenty of clever people in the House of Lords, want

:20:56. > :20:59.to do that and that is precisely why I think we should not tolerate it.

:21:00. > :21:02.Oliver Letwin, thank you for joining us from Dorset.

:21:03. > :21:07.Joining me now is Labour's Leader in the House of Lords, Angela Smith.

:21:08. > :21:13.The Commons passed this bill without any amendments... There were

:21:14. > :21:18.changes, the government did concede a couple of points. But the

:21:19. > :21:23.amendments did not go through. Does that put pressure on the Lords to do

:21:24. > :21:27.the same? I think the Lords always feels under pressure to do the right

:21:28. > :21:33.thing. When I heard Oliver Letwin, I did not know whether to laugh or

:21:34. > :21:39.cry. We will not frustrate, we will not wreck, we will not sabotage. We

:21:40. > :21:43.will do what David Davis said was our patriotic duty. We will

:21:44. > :21:46.scrutinise the bill. We have at amendments from the Labour Party. We

:21:47. > :21:50.will look at those. It depends on the government response if we vote

:21:51. > :21:54.on those. There could be amendments asking the Commons to look again.

:21:55. > :22:00.That is normally what we do. It is not the wrong thing to do. But if

:22:01. > :22:04.you do this and make amendments, it then goes back to the Commons. If

:22:05. > :22:08.the Commons rejects the Lords' amendments, what do you think will

:22:09. > :22:14.happen? I do not see any extended ping-pong at all. It is perfectly

:22:15. > :22:19.legitimate. We are not talking about the outcome of negotiations, we are

:22:20. > :22:22.talking about the process. The process of engaging with Parliament

:22:23. > :22:25.and reporting to Parliament. It would be totally responsible for

:22:26. > :22:29.Parliament to say, off you go, Theresa May, have two years of

:22:30. > :22:33.negotiation and come back and talk to us at the end. The has to be a

:22:34. > :22:37.process where the government can use the expertise of parliament to get

:22:38. > :22:43.this right. But if you do put in some amendments, it has to go back

:22:44. > :22:46.to the Commons, they may well say they don't want those amendments and

:22:47. > :22:51.it may go back to the Lords, could that at the very least delay the

:22:52. > :22:56.Prime Minister's Brexit timetable? I don't think so. She said the end of

:22:57. > :23:00.March. Time has been built in for all the normal processes. I think

:23:01. > :23:04.Oliver Letwin and others are getting a bit overexcited. This is the

:23:05. > :23:08.normal process. Unless the government get things right the

:23:09. > :23:12.first time every time, the has to be this kind of process. These are

:23:13. > :23:16.reasonable amendments. This is a Labour amendment we are talking

:23:17. > :23:30.about here, you want a vote in the UK Parliament before any

:23:31. > :23:34.vote in the European Parliament if and when the Brexit deal is done,

:23:35. > :23:37.the Commons and the Lords get to vote on it first. But the government

:23:38. > :23:40.I think have already agreed to that so what is the point? It needs to be

:23:41. > :23:43.on the face of the bill. It is over well if the government have agreed

:23:44. > :23:47.it. Lord dubs had an agreement about child and look what happened to

:23:48. > :23:52.that. Does not sound as if you would go to the wire on that? It is

:23:53. > :23:57.important it is not just about the vote at the end, you have the

:23:58. > :24:03.ongoing engagement. If it is going to be a bad deal, we need to know

:24:04. > :24:08.long before we get to that stage? Is it something you would hold out for?

:24:09. > :24:13.I don't know yet. It is about how the House of Lords votes, Labour do

:24:14. > :24:16.not have a majority, we never had a majority in the House of Lords when

:24:17. > :24:22.we were in government. It is wrong to suggest that we cannot debate

:24:23. > :24:28.these issues... I don't think anyone is suggesting that. They are. It is

:24:29. > :24:31.not unfair to ask the government to ask the House of Commons to look

:24:32. > :24:35.again to look at those issues if that is what the House of Lords

:24:36. > :24:40.decides. Bit of the House of Commons says we looked, we are sticking with

:24:41. > :24:45.what we voted for, we rejected every amendment by at least 30 votes on

:24:46. > :24:49.all occasions, the Lords then have to buckle, is that what you are

:24:50. > :24:53.saying? Some point I think it is clear the House of Commons have to

:24:54. > :24:57.have its say. I think it is inconceivable that having had a

:24:58. > :25:02.referendum, which was not overwhelming, but it was a clear

:25:03. > :25:05.result, the House of Lords has no intention of sabotaging that but

:25:06. > :25:09.there are things which are not good about the process that we think

:25:10. > :25:13.could be improved. We have not just have the result of the referendum

:25:14. > :25:19.which voted to leave, but we have had the will of the Commons that

:25:20. > :25:25.passed this legislation by a majority of 372. And I am not

:25:26. > :25:30.contesting that for a second! Could you cite a precedent for the upper

:25:31. > :25:34.house amending a bill which passed by 372 votes in the Commons? Quite

:25:35. > :25:37.other things will come to the House of Lords with big majorities from

:25:38. > :25:42.the Commons and quite often the amendments we get, with that then

:25:43. > :25:47.forward and the government sees it could do better. Though not

:25:48. > :25:50.necessarily saying the government has got things wrong, but they could

:25:51. > :25:56.do things better. That happens time and time again and it is not

:25:57. > :26:01.unusual. If you were seen to thwart the referendum result and the vote

:26:02. > :26:05.in the Commons, the elected chamber of parliament, is the threat of

:26:06. > :26:09.abolition hanging over you? I think that is really ridiculous and

:26:10. > :26:12.absolute nonsense. We are not tying to what the decision of the House of

:26:13. > :26:16.Commons, we are trying to do better. It is a bit rich of the government

:26:17. > :26:21.and Oliver Letwin to complain about getting things through in time when

:26:22. > :26:26.the House of Commons spent -- the government spent three months trying

:26:27. > :26:29.to debate this issue. There have been some strong questions put to

:26:30. > :26:32.the government from the House of Lords on all sides. I don't know if

:26:33. > :26:41.the amendments have been passed or not. I think we have a good case for

:26:42. > :26:49.the government to get debate the point. If a traditional MP like

:26:50. > :26:52.Oliver Letwin is calling for the abolition of the hereditary and

:26:53. > :26:56.appointed chamber, and the Labour person like yourself was trying to

:26:57. > :27:02.defend that, that would not be a sustainable position, I would

:27:03. > :27:04.suggest! We saw this with the Strathclyde report as well, this is

:27:05. > :27:07.a government like no other. It is the first Conservative government in

:27:08. > :27:12.history not to have an automatic majority. They do not like challenge

:27:13. > :27:18.or scrutiny. But you get my point, Labour cannot go to the wire in

:27:19. > :27:21.defending and an elected second chamber, can it? Actually, Labour

:27:22. > :27:24.can go to the wire in saying the government does not get it right

:27:25. > :27:31.every time. House of Lords is going to normal processes and people like

:27:32. > :27:35.Oliver Letwin are really getting a little bit over excited, and people

:27:36. > :27:42.who have been anonymously briefing. Who has been anonymously briefing? I

:27:43. > :27:45.don't know, they are anonymous! I understand people want to make

:27:46. > :27:49.amendments, that is the role of the House of Lords, but can I just for

:27:50. > :27:52.the avoidance of doubt, is it still your case that whatever amendments

:27:53. > :27:58.to make, whatever may go back and forward, it is not your intention to

:27:59. > :28:03.stop Article 50 being triggered by the end of March? I have been saying

:28:04. > :28:07.that, exactly that for months and months and months. It is

:28:08. > :28:10.inconceivable that an unelected House will thwart the will of the

:28:11. > :28:14.House of Commons and a referendum on this issue. But that does not mean

:28:15. > :28:19.we will be bullied by Oliver Letwin and others. But the triggering will

:28:20. > :28:24.happen by the end of March? I very much suspect so unless Theresa May

:28:25. > :28:27.has second thoughts, I suspect that will happen. Thank you.

:28:28. > :28:29.Now, just because it's parliamentary recess next week

:28:30. > :28:33.There are two by-elections round the corner -

:28:34. > :28:35.one in Copeland, and another in Stoke-on-Trent Central

:28:36. > :28:37.where the former Shadow Education Secretary,

:28:38. > :28:39.Tristram Hunt, vacated his seat to take up a role

:28:40. > :28:42.as Director of the Victoria Albert Museum in London.

:28:43. > :28:45.But Labour are facing a fight to hold onto the constituency

:28:46. > :28:51.Seconds away, Ukip's new leader has stepped into the ring

:28:52. > :28:53.as their candidate in a by-election bout to see

:28:54. > :29:00.At the last election Ukip came second to Labour here

:29:01. > :29:05.But now they are confident they can land a knockout blow,

:29:06. > :29:12.because this place is packed with people that voted to leave the EU.

:29:13. > :29:15.70% of people voted to leave the European Union.

:29:16. > :29:23.I'm the only candidate standing in this election

:29:24. > :29:25.who is a true Brexiteer, who has always campaigned to leave

:29:26. > :29:28.the EU and therefore I believe I would be the best person

:29:29. > :29:31.But he has had to fight off allegations

:29:32. > :29:34.he wasn't living in the constituency when he entered the contest.

:29:35. > :29:37.Explain to me what is going on with this issue about your house?

:29:38. > :29:39.Well, we took up the lease the day before nominations.

:29:40. > :29:42.Everything we've done is perfectly legal and within the law.

:29:43. > :29:47.The Labour Party are trying to get off the real issues in this election

:29:48. > :29:54.and focus on something which is banal nonsense.

:29:55. > :30:00.And there's been trouble as well for the Labour contender.

:30:01. > :30:02.He's been labelled a Remoaner after he sent a series

:30:03. > :30:05.of anti-Brexit tweets, filled with words

:30:06. > :30:15.I can't believe I'm about to ask this question in a nursery

:30:16. > :30:18.on a Sunday morning TV programme, but did you really tweet that

:30:19. > :30:23.I tweeted many things about Brexit, that's tweet is out there.

:30:24. > :30:26.It was done quite after the referendum result and it

:30:27. > :30:29.was my way of showing my frustration at the fact that months

:30:30. > :30:34.after the result we hadn't had anything from the government.

:30:35. > :30:36.Theresa May had failed to produce any plan,

:30:37. > :30:38.she had failed to give any meaningful statement

:30:39. > :30:40.about what Brexit meant other than bland statements

:30:41. > :30:43.about Brexit is Brexit, and it's a hard Brexit, or a soft Brexit.

:30:44. > :30:47.The context of it was it was out of frustration.

:30:48. > :30:50.So you didn't mean to insult the 70% of the people who live here

:30:51. > :30:53.I never mean to insult anybody and you know,

:30:54. > :30:56.I've made it quite clear, if I'm elected as the member

:30:57. > :30:58.of Parliament for Stoke-on-Trent Central, I will absolutely respect

:30:59. > :31:00.the wishes of the people of Stoke Central.

:31:01. > :31:04.I will make sure my vote in parliament is to trigger Article 50.

:31:05. > :31:07.While the Tories' man has done little bit of rebranding too.

:31:08. > :31:10.I voted Remain and I've been open about that, but my top priority

:31:11. > :31:12.is about the economy and to ensure we still have an

:31:13. > :31:16.Theresa May has set out clear proposal to ensure we develop

:31:17. > :31:26.a trade relationship with Europe and make that a success.

:31:27. > :31:29.It means the Lib Dems and the Greens are the ones battling Brexit.

:31:30. > :31:31.Well, when the Lib Dem candidate is actually here.

:31:32. > :31:37.The candidate is a consultant cardiologist.

:31:38. > :31:40.He is actually at work today doing very important heart surgery.

:31:41. > :31:43.He will be back tomorrow, back on the campaign trail working hard.

:31:44. > :31:47.30% of people voted to Remain and nobody else

:31:48. > :31:51.is representing them, so, you know, it is still a live issue.

:31:52. > :31:52.It is still something people care about.

:31:53. > :31:55.We are only at the start of the Article 50 process

:31:56. > :32:00.We are very a clear that we are standing up for those

:32:01. > :32:03.who want to remain in the single market, who want to protect jobs

:32:04. > :32:08.Labour have taken people for granted in this area for a great many years.

:32:09. > :32:10.Ukip, I'm afraid, all Ukip can offer to politics is division.

:32:11. > :32:13.I've covered a lot of by-elections where Ukip have come second.

:32:14. > :32:16.We'll find out if they really got Labour on the ropes this

:32:17. > :32:36.And here is a full list of all the candidates standing

:32:37. > :32:47.in the Stoke-on-Trent Central by-election.

:32:48. > :32:56.They do atract lots of candidates. You can get that on the BBC website

:32:57. > :33:04.as well. I was trying to think back, here we have the main opposition

:33:05. > :33:05.party defending two seats in by-elections in the midterm of a

:33:06. > :33:13.government. All the speculation is where the

:33:14. > :33:18.opposition party can hold on, that is unprecedented. I can't give of an

:33:19. > :33:23.equivalent. You wouldn't just expect them to win seats they have held

:33:24. > :33:29.traditionally, you would expect hem to make inroads into seats held by

:33:30. > :33:33.the other party, I wonder if they fail to hold on to just one of

:33:34. > :33:39.these, whether it accelerates the momentum and criticism of the

:33:40. > :33:43.leadership of the moment. I think they are interesting constituencies.

:33:44. > :33:48.Matthew good win was talking about the left win coalition over the

:33:49. > :33:56.years, almost being too broad for its own good, including places like

:33:57. > :34:00.Primrose Hill and Hackney. Big university towns in Manchester,

:34:01. > :34:10.Bristol. Diverse ethnically and included places like Stoke which are

:34:11. > :34:15.more Conservative. With a small c. Less economically well-off, more

:34:16. > :34:18.diverse, can the left hang on to both bits of country. Recent

:34:19. > :34:22.evidence suggests it cannot and the opportunity for Ukip is to pick up

:34:23. > :34:26.the second of those two types of community, the Stokes and the cope

:34:27. > :34:30.lands. That what makes the by-elections interest I would

:34:31. > :34:35.suggest. It is not just about Mr Corbyn's future about which we hear

:34:36. > :34:39.too much, it is about this traditional Labour coalition, can it

:34:40. > :34:43.still survive, particularly in places like Stoke? Europe clearly is

:34:44. > :34:50.a test. I think it's a myth by the way that Labour are only split now,

:34:51. > :34:55.over Europe and it has always been a Tory problem, last time I was on I

:34:56. > :35:02.mentioned it. That is why we had a referendum in 75. That is why they

:35:03. > :35:07.had a round then. But they were in chaos behind the scenes over what

:35:08. > :35:11.they thought about the euro, skillful leadership can paper over

:35:12. > :35:16.the cracks, and to address the wider issue of whether we are now in an

:35:17. > :35:20.era where left right issues have disappeared, and there is more of a

:35:21. > :35:28.regional divide, if you take Europe out of the equation which you can't,

:35:29. > :35:31.but if you were able to, issues about health, transport housing do

:35:32. > :35:37.split more left-right than a regional divide, so I think there is

:35:38. > :35:42.still fundamental left-right issues, but Europe isn't one of them and

:35:43. > :35:46.Europe has to be managed by a Labour leader skill fully and evidently

:35:47. > :35:51.that hasn't happened now. How would you see the by-elections in the

:35:52. > :35:55.current political context? Labour should be walking them, it should be

:35:56. > :35:57.a sign of the March of the Labour Party taking on the current

:35:58. > :36:01.Conservative Government. I don't think they raise any questions about

:36:02. > :36:05.Corbyn's leadership because the people who put him in don't think

:36:06. > :36:10.that winning elections matter, you have to remember this will be the

:36:11. > :36:14.mainstream media, it will be our fault why any of those Labour

:36:15. > :36:18.candidates don't win, the thing that is interesting is whether there is

:36:19. > :36:22.is a role for Ukip. The argument after the referendum was Ukip has

:36:23. > :36:28.done its job, it got the referendum, nothing to see here, I remember

:36:29. > :36:34.speaking to put a Nuttall before he was Ukip leader, on the day after

:36:35. > :36:38.the battle and he said this is Year Zero, where Ukip starts now, and

:36:39. > :36:42.this, and this is the interesting thing, does, do we see this one

:36:43. > :36:46.particular party having a role in the future? And I think it is all to

:36:47. > :36:51.play for, they could not not have stood in this seat. They have to win

:36:52. > :36:54.it to be an electoral force. The Labour candidate in Copeland has

:36:55. > :36:58.made the NHS the issue for her in this, that goes into the left-right,

:36:59. > :37:04.are we spending enough, are we not? That will be a test of what you were

:37:05. > :37:07.saying to see if traditional left-right issue, which at the

:37:08. > :37:11.moment would play Labour's way I would suggest, are big enough to

:37:12. > :37:15.overcome all the things you have been talking about and Matthew has

:37:16. > :37:19.been talking about. Maybe at this particular junction they are not,

:37:20. > :37:25.but I don't think any of those issues will go away, and that is why

:37:26. > :37:31.I question whether we are see the end of a historic left-right divide.

:37:32. > :37:34.At the moment with Europe so prominent, clearly these

:37:35. > :37:38.by-elections are unusual. And they will be a test of leadership for

:37:39. > :37:41.Theresa May in the coming months if not at the moment, as they have been

:37:42. > :37:46.in a way that he hasn't risen to, for the Labour leader.

:37:47. > :37:50.We will be leave on BBC One on the night, February 23rd off back of

:37:51. > :37:52.this week, we will bring you the result of both these crucial

:37:53. > :37:56.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:37:57. > :37:59.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

:38:00. > :38:02.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.

:38:03. > :38:14.First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.

:38:15. > :38:19.This week, two of the most pressing issues currently facing the capital.

:38:20. > :38:21.Fist, that acute shortage of housing, then a little

:38:22. > :38:26.As the mayor begins to set out a number of initiatives to tackle

:38:27. > :38:31.it, we look at what lessons can be learned from Paris.

:38:32. > :38:34.Here with us this week, Paul Scully, Conservative MP

:38:35. > :38:36.for Sutton and Cheam, and Dawn Butler, Labour

:38:37. > :38:45.I just want to ask them one thing quickly about this

:38:46. > :38:47.issue of social care, which is rising rapidly up

:38:48. > :38:51.If Surrey County Council were prepared, Paul,

:38:52. > :38:55.to withdraw their threat of 15% council tax rise for social care,

:38:56. > :38:57.there must have been something they were offered by Government.

:38:58. > :39:00.Are you going to be asking for something similar?

:39:01. > :39:02.It's interesting that, you know, Surrey County Council,

:39:03. > :39:09.they put up the 15% to a referendum, which from what I was hearing

:39:10. > :39:12.they were clearly going to lose, and they can approach the Government

:39:13. > :39:14.to at least acknowledge the fact it's a problem,

:39:15. > :39:16.which they've done - cute lobbying frankly.

:39:17. > :39:20.But what we have done in Sutton, our local council has just

:39:21. > :39:24.passed a motion to say, well, we're not going to ask for any

:39:25. > :39:27.more money, we're not going to change anything but we're

:39:28. > :39:29.going to get our MPs to write a letter, which we've

:39:30. > :39:32.already done any way, because we do want to be involved

:39:33. > :39:34.in that conversation, because adult social care

:39:35. > :39:35.is a hugely important issue to tackle.

:39:36. > :39:41.Well, Brent wants Nick's number, so we can all get

:39:42. > :39:47.To be fair, people could always vote Conservative next year.

:39:48. > :39:51.Having a sweetheart deal isn't good enough.

:39:52. > :39:54.Having numbers you can say, well, actually you don't have do

:39:55. > :39:57.the referendum because we're going to sort it out.

:39:58. > :40:00.Liverpool next door, tried to get a meeting

:40:01. > :40:02.with the Government, at least four times, possibly more.

:40:03. > :40:11.Liverpool tried to get a deal and they weren't

:40:12. > :40:16.I would love to have a deal in Brent, we are short,

:40:17. > :40:20.There is no sweetheart deal, but David Hodge has been

:40:21. > :40:23.a senior person in the LGA, he knows how local Government works

:40:24. > :40:25.and he will be making approaches all council leaders should

:40:26. > :40:31.It may be I reckon many people are saying we won't see

:40:32. > :40:34.the signs this year, but may be in subsequent years

:40:35. > :40:36.we have to remember this and look and see what the settlements

:40:37. > :40:39.are in future years, but we must move on.

:40:40. > :40:41.In the Government's housing White Paper this week

:40:42. > :40:49.were some potential remedies, no building to rent,

:40:50. > :40:51.more pressure on developers and planners to get construction

:40:52. > :40:53.moving faster, encouraging greater density in housing

:40:54. > :40:57.We'll explore how far this could address the acute shortage

:40:58. > :40:59.in the capital in just a moment, after this.

:41:00. > :41:02.The housing market is broken, because we haven't

:41:03. > :41:05.So says the Government's new housing White Paper.

:41:06. > :41:09.It announces a raft of new policies to get more houses built.

:41:10. > :41:14.All councils will be pressured to release more land

:41:15. > :41:19.The Government says many councils haven't come up with adequate plans

:41:20. > :41:27.Pointing to London as one of the least dense cities in western

:41:28. > :41:30.Europe, new planning regulations will encourage developers

:41:31. > :41:33.to pack in more homes, and also to deter low-density

:41:34. > :41:39.housing, Londoners on incomes below ?90,000 will be entitled to buy

:41:40. > :41:42.new starter homes at a discount of 20%, up to the value

:41:43. > :41:45.There is also a particular emphasis on renters,

:41:46. > :41:46.with letting agent fees to be banned.

:41:47. > :41:49.The Government says housing policy shouldn't just be about those

:41:50. > :41:54.We have to accept there are some people who won't be able

:41:55. > :41:58.to own and others who will in time, but they will have

:41:59. > :42:06.If as a government you want to have something to say to everybody,

:42:07. > :42:09.you have got to have policies that both help people that want to own,

:42:10. > :42:11.but also help people that are having to rent.

:42:12. > :42:13.The housing market may well be broken, will these measures

:42:14. > :42:16.Well, let's talk about that with James Murray,

:42:17. > :42:19.deputy mayor for housing, and Campbell Robb, chief executive

:42:20. > :42:25.What did you get from this White Paper, what did

:42:26. > :42:30.It certainly signified a very big shift in Government thinking,

:42:31. > :42:31.about where housing policy should go.

:42:32. > :42:35.And that is very welcome in the sense that finally,

:42:36. > :42:38.policy might start to catch up with the reality of many people's

:42:39. > :42:40.lives who are living in the private rented sector.

:42:41. > :42:43.For too long, successive Governments have focussed entirely on policy

:42:44. > :42:51.That has become just a pipe dream for so many people,

:42:52. > :42:54.particularly in London, so that is a good and welcome shift.

:42:55. > :42:58.I think we would like to see a lot more how that is going to happen,

:42:59. > :43:00.how that is going to be affordable, what type of rented homes

:43:01. > :43:03.are going to be built and how they will make that happen.

:43:04. > :43:07.In terms of a shift of view, I think that is a welcome start.

:43:08. > :43:12.Always, I'm afraid, and that's about the poorest in society.

:43:13. > :43:14.40% of the poorest Londoners live in the private rented sector

:43:15. > :43:17.and this immediately won't make that much difference to their lives.

:43:18. > :43:20.It's how we really begin to see those people who are really not just

:43:21. > :43:22.managing, slipping into some very difficult circumstances -

:43:23. > :43:25.rent is one of the biggest things that affects them and we need

:43:26. > :43:28.to really get this motoring and get councils and the mayor

:43:29. > :43:32.really working together, because otherwise, with food

:43:33. > :43:37.and prices going up, and wages may or may not go up,

:43:38. > :43:41.we will see a lot of people tipping into more trouble,

:43:42. > :43:43.and that's what this housing bill needs to begin to tackle.

:43:44. > :43:46.Why wasn't it saying, this White Paper, why wasn't it

:43:47. > :43:49.We have seen the emphasis on affordability, though.

:43:50. > :43:53.It is, and I think the challenge is back to politicians

:43:54. > :43:56.round the table to make a case for how all of you really begin

:43:57. > :43:59.to think about some of the poorest constituents in your area.

:44:00. > :44:02.So you are not going to benefit at this stage from the terrible

:44:03. > :44:04.rents that they paying, and the landlords.

:44:05. > :44:06.The Government has done other things to make the conditions better,

:44:07. > :44:09.but I really believe if we don't really begin to look at some

:44:10. > :44:12.of the work they are doing in London on living rents and those

:44:13. > :44:16.We need to begin to control the cost, but we also need

:44:17. > :44:19.to look at the other side, we need to make sure people

:44:20. > :44:22.are getting a decent wage, that the cost of other goods doesn't

:44:23. > :44:26.So it's a whole lot of things we need to see.

:44:27. > :44:29.So James Murray, as you start to feel your way with the mayor,

:44:30. > :44:32.to coming up with a strategy that deals with London going forward,

:44:33. > :44:35.what did this change for you, or what is different for you now,

:44:36. > :44:39.I think we welcome the White Paper, you know, it shows us pointing

:44:40. > :44:46.It shows the direction we are moving in now recognises that we need

:44:47. > :44:48.different sorts of homes for different people, in London,

:44:49. > :44:52.and I think what Londoners have seen is the benefit of having a mayor

:44:53. > :44:54.and his team at City Hall, who work closely with Government,

:44:55. > :44:58.Are you saying that because of its focus on rent?

:44:59. > :45:01.You think there is a clear shift to the rent?

:45:02. > :45:03.I think there is a lot of different shifts.

:45:04. > :45:05.There is a lot of practical measures in the bill,

:45:06. > :45:08.in the White Paper which show a slightly different emphasis,

:45:09. > :45:10.and we are pointing in a better direction.

:45:11. > :45:11.The proposals there which we can discuss

:45:12. > :45:15.It was encouraging for us to hear Gavin Barwell say,

:45:16. > :45:19.on the day the White Paper came out, that he is looking to do a bespoke

:45:20. > :45:22.deal with us about greater devolution to London over housing

:45:23. > :45:24.power, which means it gives us the opportunity to make sure

:45:25. > :45:27.we have the tools we need in London to build the homes

:45:28. > :45:32.Dawn Butler, as a Labour MP in somewhere like Brent,

:45:33. > :45:35.I don't feel that confidence because this Government has made

:45:36. > :45:37.so many announcements around housing, you know, over 1,000

:45:38. > :45:40.announcement since 2010 around housing, yet still nothing

:45:41. > :45:45.I agree the White Paper kind of signifies it is going

:45:46. > :45:48.in the right direction, but ultimately, you know,

:45:49. > :45:50.we need to build more homes, but they have

:45:51. > :45:58.In Brent, houses are going for ?720,000.

:45:59. > :46:02.130% more than the average wage, so what we need is more affordable

:46:03. > :46:06.homes, they need to be built and we need more social housing.

:46:07. > :46:10.This Government's ideologically committed to not building social

:46:11. > :46:15.housing and trying to move everybody out and away from their families

:46:16. > :46:18.and from the areas of work, like doctors and nurses

:46:19. > :46:25.Two points, because it is Campbell's as well, there is a shift perhaps

:46:26. > :46:27.away from ownership, and do you welcome that,

:46:28. > :46:29.or are you absolutely wedded to the old Thatcherite

:46:30. > :46:35.But also it is still not addressing right down at the bottom end

:46:36. > :46:37.of the market that social, what affordable rents means

:46:38. > :46:39.now is something pretty close to market rent.

:46:40. > :46:42.I think in terms of the first question, I think Campbell was right

:46:43. > :46:47.when he said this is a very rounded White Paper, looking at a range of,

:46:48. > :46:54.I think this links in with the need for different types of private

:46:55. > :46:57.solutions, in terms of intermediate housing, shared living,

:46:58. > :47:00.and these kind of projects that are already happening,

:47:01. > :47:05.But one thing that really stuck out, if you are talking

:47:06. > :47:08.about a lot of affordability, whether it is ownership or rent,

:47:09. > :47:11.ultimately the starting point is about building more houses,

:47:12. > :47:14.and the thing that stuck out in the White Paper for me,

:47:15. > :47:17.as a former councillor, was the ability for local councils

:47:18. > :47:20.to push developers to use the planning permission

:47:21. > :47:24.I haven't been a councillor for seven years, but there's

:47:25. > :47:26.still developments that I was on the committee giving

:47:27. > :47:29.planning permission for that are still sitting on a bit of paper.

:47:30. > :47:32.You are happy this White Paper, signals it is going to be more

:47:33. > :47:34.affordable housing for the people of your area?

:47:35. > :47:39.If you look at the completions that have happened over

:47:40. > :47:41.the last year under Boris, not the planning permission

:47:42. > :47:43.by the completion, there are already a significant amount of those,

:47:44. > :47:49.There were supposed to be 200,000 new houses built.

:47:50. > :47:53.As I say, 38% of actual completion, but we absolutely need more,

:47:54. > :47:56.and I think this is the start of a conversation.

:47:57. > :47:59.That is the point about a White Paper, it is not a policy,

:48:00. > :48:01.it's a conversation, it's consultation now

:48:02. > :48:04.we need to get stuck into, make it not just a bit of paper,

:48:05. > :48:11.I want to ask James Murray, what does this mean in terms

:48:12. > :48:14.of you shifting how much or the kind of housing you will be providing

:48:15. > :48:17.here, how much are you going to go for in terms of ownership,

:48:18. > :48:20.how much is going to be London living rent, a third

:48:21. > :48:26.If you look at the deal which we did with Government last November

:48:27. > :48:29.in the Autumn Statement, where we secured ?33.15 billion,

:48:30. > :48:34.A record for a Conservative Government.

:48:35. > :48:36.Yes, and I think that shows you know, Londoners

:48:37. > :48:39.have seen the benefit of when you have the mayor

:48:40. > :48:42.and his team in City Hall working with Government to try and get

:48:43. > :48:45.Or a Conservative Government that realises there is a problem

:48:46. > :48:47.and spends that money, whoever is in City Hall.

:48:48. > :48:49.The truth is everyone in London knows there

:48:50. > :48:52.is a housing crisis, and you know, as we are working

:48:53. > :48:55.One simple question now, say you have your affordable housing,

:48:56. > :48:59.you have promised it is going to be, half of all the new housing

:49:00. > :49:01.you build is affordable, of that affordable chunk,

:49:02. > :49:04.how much will be a third of average wages in the area?

:49:05. > :49:08.What we set out clearly on the 90,000 homes,

:49:09. > :49:11.I can give you a precise answer on that one.

:49:12. > :49:13.So the 90,000 homes we agreed with Government, putting

:49:14. > :49:15.?3.15 billion towards that, around two thirds of them

:49:16. > :49:18.are going to be for shared ownership or London living rent,

:49:19. > :49:20.and the other third will be affordable homes to rent.

:49:21. > :49:23.So how much will be the London living rent, that element?

:49:24. > :49:26.That will be within the two thirds, so the 60,000.

:49:27. > :49:28.How much of it, because that is key one that

:49:29. > :49:31.How much are you going to be helping them?

:49:32. > :49:34.The ones that will help people on the lowest incomes

:49:35. > :49:37.So those which are affordable rent or social rent,

:49:38. > :49:40.those are the ones that are helping people on the lowest incomes,

:49:41. > :49:43.which is a question that has been brought up today.

:49:44. > :49:46.I am nodding in the hope that everyone around this

:49:47. > :49:48.table recognises that, and I hope it's a genuinely

:49:49. > :49:51.consultation, because I think there is still a gap within this

:49:52. > :49:54.White Paper about what happens to the poorest people in society,

:49:55. > :49:56.going forward or right now, in terms of what they can

:49:57. > :49:59.afford to rent and what they can afford to buy.

:50:00. > :50:02.And I really think that we hope and we have lots of solutions

:50:03. > :50:04.and proposals we will bring to Government, for London as well,

:50:05. > :50:07.particularly because we have to recognise it is harder in London,

:50:08. > :50:11.it is tougher, there is more need, but I think this is a really good

:50:12. > :50:14.opportunity for everyone to sit down and say come on, let's put ideology

:50:15. > :50:16.away from this and get on with getting some proper housing

:50:17. > :50:20.Can I ask one thing, check one last thing,

:50:21. > :50:23.do you agree and do you accept this is a shift away from ownership,

:50:24. > :50:26.and thus we've been a little bit preoccupied with ownership,

:50:27. > :50:29.allowing right to buy or putting the money into shared ownership,

:50:30. > :50:36.There is nothing wrong with, to meet people's aspirations

:50:37. > :50:39.to own their own home, but Campbell is absolutely right

:50:40. > :50:42.when he started off, you know, talking about the fact we are living

:50:43. > :50:45.in London, and it is a particular peculiarly broken market,

:50:46. > :50:51.I'm an out of London MP and the challenges there are getting

:50:52. > :50:54.just as tough as parts of inner London, I have a son

:50:55. > :50:58.that is renting and we have all got the same pressures.

:50:59. > :51:01.Thanks for you to two for coming, good to see you.

:51:02. > :51:06.Sadiq Khan is calling for the Government to help scrap

:51:07. > :51:08.diesel vehicles with a generous package of compensation

:51:09. > :51:14.It would cost a tidy half a billion pounds in London alone.

:51:15. > :51:17.The mayor claims he has the boldest plans of any city in the world

:51:18. > :51:20.to tackle air pollution, but this report suggests it

:51:21. > :51:27.doesn't compare to what is being done in Paris.

:51:28. > :51:33.Not always known for being the calmest of experiences.

:51:34. > :51:36.But getting in a car in the French capital might soon be

:51:37. > :51:43.Take the ten lane Champs Elysees, which last Sunday you would

:51:44. > :51:52.Once a month, all vehicles are banned and buskers

:51:53. > :52:00.So, other than giving people a chance to boost their social

:52:01. > :52:03.media profile, what, you may ask, is the point?

:52:04. > :52:06.Well, the mayor of Paris is trying to say something very simple.

:52:07. > :52:08.If this, the Champs Elysees, one of the most famous

:52:09. > :52:13.streets in all the world, doesn't belong to the motor car,

:52:14. > :52:19.The mayor of Paris has even said she eventually wants to see

:52:20. > :52:22.the middle of the City out-of-bounds for every car, all the time.

:52:23. > :52:28.With exceptions for residents, deliveries and emergency services.

:52:29. > :52:33.The city of Paris has decided to fight the pollution in the air,

:52:34. > :52:38.and she's doing a lot of things, many, many different projects,

:52:39. > :52:44.but one of them is to bring the most important streets to the users

:52:45. > :52:51.No driver has been allowed up the left or right banks

:52:52. > :52:56.All of which starts to post big questions about how much Sadiq Khan

:52:57. > :53:00.is doing to fight air pollution in London.

:53:01. > :53:03.Now the mayor likes to say that London under him has the toughest

:53:04. > :53:07.anti-air pollution measures of any major city in the world.

:53:08. > :53:10.But, in fact, you only have to get a two-and-a-half hour train ride

:53:11. > :53:13.from St Pancras to find our nearest major rival is doing

:53:14. > :53:20.Both London and Paris have very similar problems with the air

:53:21. > :53:24.quality readings you get from monitoring stations.

:53:25. > :53:27.It means on a bad day, both cities are capable of having

:53:28. > :53:29.the highest readings anywhere in the world, including big

:53:30. > :53:35.In London, the mayor issues a warning but Paris

:53:36. > :53:43.Every car now has a number, according to how polluting it is.

:53:44. > :53:44.On the wrong day with the wrong sticker,

:53:45. > :53:50.Paris's deputy mayor for transport told us it a system they copied

:53:51. > :53:57.from the Germans and he thinks London will follow suit.

:53:58. > :54:01.TRANSLATION: Berlin has shown a significant reduction

:54:02. > :54:06.in polluting emissions, and air quality there has

:54:07. > :54:11.There is no reason why applying this system in Paris should not

:54:12. > :54:14.This is why we chose to pursue this path and believe

:54:15. > :54:18.Now the mayor of Paris wants to go even further than that.

:54:19. > :54:21.From 2020, people driving diesel cars will be banned from Paris,

:54:22. > :54:29.The most he wants to do is introduce a charge so people can

:54:30. > :54:32.still drive air polluting cars, but they have to pay a little extra

:54:33. > :54:38.And in France, 60% of cars are diesel, meaning over half

:54:39. > :54:44.of the motor cars on the road are set to be banned entirely.

:54:45. > :54:46.As you might have guessed, it is not universally popular.

:54:47. > :54:49.Please, don't do the same thing in London.

:54:50. > :54:52.Think about all the drivers in their cars today.

:54:53. > :55:04.So perhaps the real question for London is not whether Paris

:55:05. > :55:07.is doing more to crack down than we are, but if any

:55:08. > :55:13.of what they are doing we should be copying.

:55:14. > :55:16.Val Shawcross is here, deputy mayor for transport.

:55:17. > :55:21.For whatever reason the explanation might be, do you accept

:55:22. > :55:24.that Paris is bolder, bigger, bolder, better?

:55:25. > :55:29.No, I think they have communicated a very bold vision, which is great.

:55:30. > :55:32.I don't think the practical steps are behind it.

:55:33. > :55:35.I don't think the science is as strong as what we have

:55:36. > :55:40.For example, in London, if we have pursue the programme

:55:41. > :55:44.we are going through, by 2020 we will have

:55:45. > :55:49.reduced the air pollution in London by at least half.

:55:50. > :55:53.That is the date at which they are talking about doing a diesel ban

:55:54. > :55:56.in a small area of Paris, so, you know, the programme we have

:55:57. > :55:59.got is a very practical one and very deliverable,

:56:00. > :56:02.and I am very confident what we will do is make

:56:03. > :56:07.But how come, if they say they are banning all diesel vehicles

:56:08. > :56:11.by 2020, and you're not, but charging - it will be the T

:56:12. > :56:17.charge, ?10 or whatever it is - how come that is bolder than Paris?

:56:18. > :56:21.Well, you know, we do actually have to go through a transition,

:56:22. > :56:24.because we don't have the powers to ban diesel by the way,

:56:25. > :56:27.but if we did, you would find there would be a rush

:56:28. > :56:32.In all of this we have to balance a couple of things.

:56:33. > :56:34.One is we don't want to increase carbon dioxide emissions,

:56:35. > :56:40.The other thing is you have to bear in mind the entire

:56:41. > :56:45.London, you know, the practical things that London needs to run

:56:46. > :56:48.around usually are diesel, so what we want is to make sure

:56:49. > :56:51.we put enough pressure on enough carrots and sticks to make sure

:56:52. > :56:55.we transform the vehicles running around London to much cleaner

:56:56. > :57:04.Putting money where mouth is, the mayor of Paris does put ?500

:57:05. > :57:08.or offers ?500 as that scrappage compensation for people

:57:09. > :57:13.You are not doing that, you are just asking the Government for it.

:57:14. > :57:16.We have put some money into a scrappage scheme

:57:17. > :57:21.You are in effect saying you are not going to do much.

:57:22. > :57:24.No, and we have also, we are going through a programme

:57:25. > :57:27.which has been announced of cleaning up every bus in London.

:57:28. > :57:31.So by 2020, all of the buses - and a huge fleet it is in London -

:57:32. > :57:35.will be Euro Six standard, so we have a very practical

:57:36. > :57:38.programme that we are going through, it is legal and it has a very

:57:39. > :57:43.But no more money will come from the mayor in terms

:57:44. > :57:45.of private vehicles, getting us to get rid of our cars.

:57:46. > :57:48.We have asked the Government to help us with that.

:57:49. > :57:50.I know, but I am talking about the mayor's money.

:57:51. > :57:52.But the Government could find the money if -

:57:53. > :57:55.at the moment there is a fiscal incentive to people to buy diesel,

:57:56. > :57:59.which we think is completely wrong and outdated.

:58:00. > :58:03.If they remove that incentive and put it into a scrappage scheme,

:58:04. > :58:09.OK, one more, pedestrianisation, well advanced in Paris,

:58:10. > :58:15.Stickers, keeping cars out on polluted days,

:58:16. > :58:20.We are working on a big programme, as you know, with Westminster

:58:21. > :58:23.to look at what we can do with Oxford Street, and that is

:58:24. > :58:28.We have got a big healthy streets programme which has been funded

:58:29. > :58:31.in the business plan for more pedestrian and walking facilities,

:58:32. > :58:37.So we do have some complementary measures we are putting in over

:58:38. > :58:42.the next few years that will support this whose programme.

:58:43. > :58:45.Are you disappointed that Paris appears to be bolder than London,

:58:46. > :58:50.I am not disappointed, in that I know that the mayor has

:58:51. > :58:53.some funding for instance that we will be

:58:54. > :59:03.Some of my schools are adjacent to the north circular road

:59:04. > :59:06.for example, and the pollution is so high, nine out of ten

:59:07. > :59:09.in the readings, so that I am going to be applying,

:59:10. > :59:12.with the schools, to make sure we can pull down some of these

:59:13. > :59:14.fundings for innovative ways of combatting the pollution

:59:15. > :59:21.I think we have to push ahead with the diesel scrappage scheme

:59:22. > :59:25.I think the mayor and the Government has a role to play...

:59:26. > :59:28.At a cost of ?500 million, which he said this week,

:59:29. > :59:30.asking the Government, don't you think it's something

:59:31. > :59:33.It has to come out of general taxation,

:59:34. > :59:40.Yes, I think Val said that you do need to have a transition period

:59:41. > :59:43.on this, because what I would like to see is the move

:59:44. > :59:47.from the fiscal benefits of buying diesel as happened in the early

:59:48. > :59:52.2000s, allowing people to move not just from a diesel car,

:59:53. > :59:56.but hopefully to electric cars, and things like that,

:59:57. > :59:59.I saw Blue Point London the other day and they have some really good

:00:00. > :00:03.pioneering plans to put in more charge points,

:00:04. > :00:06.because you have to have - if you are going to get

:00:07. > :00:08.rid of one car you have to have an environmentally-friendly

:00:09. > :00:16.There is no point scrapping it for the sake of scrapping it.

:00:17. > :00:20.Are you saying that what Paris is saying is exaggerated

:00:21. > :00:22.because they are talking a much smaller area?

:00:23. > :00:24.Or can you name me one area where you think

:00:25. > :00:31.currently London is bolder, further ahead than Paris?

:00:32. > :00:33.We will be starting the T charge, the toxicity charge,

:00:34. > :00:37.So the pre-2006 vehicles, the objective is this October,

:00:38. > :00:39.so that is going to be very very important.

:00:40. > :00:41.I think there is another thing about the stickers, you know.

:00:42. > :00:43.The congestion charge, which is the technology we'll

:00:44. > :00:46.be using in October, that the camera based technology

:00:47. > :00:48.picks up 98% of offenders, whereas if you are using a sticker

:00:49. > :00:51.scheme, you have to have traffic wardens, so we will have tight

:00:52. > :00:59.We look forward to this competition continuing.

:01:00. > :01:00.Val Shawcross, thank you very much indeed.

:01:01. > :01:14.After the excitement and late nights in the Commons last week,

:01:15. > :01:17.MPs are having a little break this week as we head into

:01:18. > :01:21.But there's still plenty in the diary in the near future -

:01:22. > :01:28.let's just remind ourselves of some key upcoming dates.

:01:29. > :01:38.There they are. We have the two by-elections on February 23rd. The

:01:39. > :01:41.budget is 8th March. That will be the last spring budget under this

:01:42. > :01:56.Government because it moves to the autumn.

:01:57. > :02:02.That round of French elections narrows the candidates, probably

:02:03. > :02:08.about eight or nine, down to two, the two who come first and second,

:02:09. > :02:15.then go into a play off round on May 7th. That will determine the next

:02:16. > :02:18.President. Steve, listening to Oliver Letwin and to the Labour

:02:19. > :02:22.leader in the House of Lords, is there any way you think that end of

:02:23. > :02:28.March deadline for Mrs May could be in jeopardy? No, I don't. Andrew

:02:29. > :02:32.Smith couldn't have been clearer with you they would do nothing to

:02:33. > :02:38.block not just Article 50 but that timetable, so I would be surprised

:02:39. > :02:43.if they don't make it. Given her, Theresa May's explicit determination

:02:44. > :02:48.to do so, not to do so would have become a problem for her, I think

:02:49. > :02:52.one way or another... No before this vote last week there was a vote nor

:02:53. > :02:57.the deadline, to agree the deadline by all sides. Plain sailing do you

:02:58. > :03:00.think? There is no serious Parliamentary resistance and it

:03:01. > :03:03.would be a personal embarrassment, I think for the Prime Minister to name

:03:04. > :03:09.the the end of March as the deadline and to miss it, unless she has a

:03:10. > :03:13.good excuse. I I reckon it will change the atmosphere of politics

:03:14. > :03:17.for the next two years, as soon as the negotiations begin, people in

:03:18. > :03:21.our profession will hunt for any detail and inside information we can

:03:22. > :03:25.find, thing also be leaked, I think from the European side from time to

:03:26. > :03:29.time, it will dominate the headlines for a solid two years and change

:03:30. > :03:36.politics. Let me just raise a possible, a dark cloud. No bigger

:03:37. > :03:39.than man's hand, that can complicate the timetable, because the Royal

:03:40. > :03:44.Assent on the current timetable has to come round the 13th. I would

:03:45. > :03:49.suggest that the Prime Minister can't trigger that until she does

:03:50. > :03:54.get the Royal Assent. If there is a bit of ping-pong that could delay

:03:55. > :03:58.that by receive day, the last thing the Europeans would want, they have

:03:59. > :04:04.another big meeting at the end of March which is the 60th anniversary

:04:05. > :04:11.of the Treaty of Rome. They don't want Article 50 to land on the

:04:12. > :04:15.table... It would infuriate everybody. My guess is she will have

:04:16. > :04:19.done it by then, this is between the Commons and the Lords, I mean Andrew

:04:20. > :04:26.Smith couldn't have been clearer, that they might send something back

:04:27. > :04:31.but they didn't expect a kind of a long play over this, so. The Liberal

:04:32. > :04:36.Democrats, they are almost an irrelevance in the Commons but not

:04:37. > :04:40.the Lords, they feel differently. Now, we don't know yet what the

:04:41. > :04:44.European Union negotiating position is going to be, we don't know

:04:45. > :04:47.because there are several crucial elections taking place, the Dutch

:04:48. > :04:51.taking place in March and then the one we put up, the French, and, at

:04:52. > :04:58.the moment, the French one is, it seems like it is coming down, to a

:04:59. > :05:06.play-off in the second round between Madame Le Pen who could come first

:05:07. > :05:10.in the first round and this Blairite figure, independent, centre-leftish

:05:11. > :05:15.Mr Macron, he may well get through and that, and the outcome of that

:05:16. > :05:20.will be an important determine napt on our negotiations. -- determinant.

:05:21. > :05:24.You o couldn't have two more different candidate, you have a

:05:25. > :05:28.national a front candidate and on the other hand the closest thing

:05:29. > :05:36.France could have you to a liberal President. With a small l. A

:05:37. > :05:41.reformist liberal President. It would be the most French thing in

:05:42. > :05:47.the world to elect someone who while the rest of the world is elected

:05:48. > :05:53.elitist, to elect someone who is the son of a teacher, who has liberal

:05:54. > :06:01.views, is a member of the French elite. It would be a thing for them

:06:02. > :06:09.to elect a man like that which I why I see them doing it. If it is Le

:06:10. > :06:13.Pen, Brexit becomes a minor sideshow, if it is Le Pen, the

:06:14. > :06:20.future of the European Union is? Danger, regardless of whether we are

:06:21. > :06:24.were in or out. I suggest if it is Mr Macron that presents some

:06:25. > :06:28.problems. He doesn't have his own party. He won't have a majority in

:06:29. > :06:32.the French assembly, he is untried and untested. He wants to do a

:06:33. > :06:39.number of things that will be unpopular which is why a number of

:06:40. > :06:47.people close to Mrs Le Pen tell me that she has her eye on 2022. She

:06:48. > :06:53.thinks lit go to hell in a hand basket under Mr Macron. He hasn't

:06:54. > :06:58.got the experience. What I find fascinating. It is not just all to

:06:59. > :07:02.play for in France, it is the fact what happens in France and Germany,

:07:03. > :07:08.not so much Holland I think but Germany later on in the year, how

:07:09. > :07:21.much it impacts what we are going to get. How much which ex #i78 panting

:07:22. > :07:24.on them. And at the time we are trying to, withdrawing ourself from

:07:25. > :07:28.European politics it is fascinating how much it will affect us. You see

:07:29. > :07:34.what Matthew was talking about earlier in the show, that what we do

:07:35. > :07:37.know, almost for sure, is that the socialist candidate will not get

:07:38. > :07:42.through to the second round. He could come firth but the

:07:43. > :07:46.centre-right candidate. If we were discussing that monthing a we would

:07:47. > :07:51.say it between teen the centre-right and the national fronts. We are to

:07:52. > :07:55.saying that. Matthew good win who spent a time in France isn't sure Le

:07:56. > :08:01.Pen will get into the second round, which is interesting. It is, I mean,

:08:02. > :08:07.it is going to be as important for the future of the European Union, as

:08:08. > :08:10.in retrospect the British 2015 general election was, if Labour had

:08:11. > :08:14.got in there would have been no referendum. That referendum has

:08:15. > :08:20.transformed the European Union because we are leaving and the

:08:21. > :08:25.French election is significant. We will be live from Paris on April

:08:26. > :08:30.23rd on the day France goings to the first round of polls. Tom Watson, he

:08:31. > :08:32.was on The Andrew Marr Show earlier today, was asked about Mr Corbyn,

:08:33. > :08:37.this is what he had to say. We had a damaging second leadership

:08:38. > :08:40.election, so we've got The polls aren't great for us,

:08:41. > :08:44.but I'm determined now we've got the leadership settled for this

:08:45. > :08:47.parliament, that we can focus on developing a very positive clear

:08:48. > :09:02.message to the British people So Julia, I don't know who are you

:09:03. > :09:08.are giggling. I find it untenable that, he is a very good media

:09:09. > :09:11.performer and he comes on and he is sitting there so well, you know,

:09:12. > :09:16.things are bad but don't worry we are looking at what we can do to win

:09:17. > :09:21.2020. The idea that Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were sitting in their

:09:22. > :09:26.offices or on TV screens at this time in the electoral cycle thinking

:09:27. > :09:31.well I wonder if we can come up with a policy the British people might

:09:32. > :09:39.like. It is a nonsense, this is Tuesday night book zlufb. I am going

:09:40. > :09:46.to ask you the question I was going to before. I would suggest that he

:09:47. > :09:52.the right. The deputy Labour leader Tom Watson is violent the leadership

:09:53. > :09:57.is settled, with one caveat, unless the Corbynistas themselves to decide

:09:58. > :10:02.to move on Mr Corbyn, if the left of the Labour Party decides then it is

:10:03. > :10:06.not settled. Settled. If that doesn't happen that is That would be

:10:07. > :10:11.the worst situation if you are a Labour moderate. The Corbynistas

:10:12. > :10:17.would be saying the problem is no Corbynism, it is Corbyn himself, if

:10:18. > :10:22.we a younger person leading the process we can win the next general

:10:23. > :10:26.election, which means you have another itration of this, another

:10:27. > :10:34.five year experiment. And that is worst of all. If you are a Labour

:10:35. > :10:38.moderate, what you want is Jeremy Corbyn contest the next general

:10:39. > :10:42.election, possibly loses badly and then a Labour not moderate runs for

:10:43. > :10:47.the leadership saying we have tried your way, the worst would be Corbyn

:10:48. > :10:51.going, and a younger seven version of him trying and the experiment

:10:52. > :10:57.being extended. I see no easy way out of this. That is why he radiated

:10:58. > :11:02.the enthusiasm of someone in a hostage video in that interview.

:11:03. > :11:08.Maybe he has the Stockholm Syndrome now. The Labour moderates have had

:11:09. > :11:12.their day in the sun, two days in the sun and they lost. I suggest

:11:13. > :11:17.they are not going to try for the hat-trick again. Is there any

:11:18. > :11:24.indication that on the more Corbyn wing of the Labour Party, there is

:11:25. > :11:29.now doubts about their man. Yes, just to translate Tom Watson, what

:11:30. > :11:35.he meant was I Tom Watson am not going to get involved in another

:11:36. > :11:40.attempted coup. I tried it and it was a catastrophe. That is question

:11:41. > :11:46.enhe says it is set selled. It is because there is speculation on a

:11:47. > :11:52.daily basis. I disagree, Julia said I think this lot don't care about

:11:53. > :11:55.winning, I think they do. If the current position continue, one of

:11:56. > :12:00.two things will happen. Either Jeremy Corbyn will decide himself

:12:01. > :12:06.will decide he doesn't want to carry on. He half enjoys I it and half

:12:07. > :12:11.hates it. Finds it a strain. If that doesn't happen there will be some

:12:12. > :12:17.people round him who will say, look, this isn't working. There is another

:12:18. > :12:23.three-and-a-half years. There is a long way to go. I can't see it

:12:24. > :12:27.lasting in this way with politics in a state of flux, Tories will be

:12:28. > :12:32.under pressure in the coming two years, to have opinion polls at this

:12:33. > :12:37.level, I think is unsustainable. Final thought from you.? Yes, the

:12:38. > :12:41.idea it St another three-and-a-half years is just madness, but the

:12:42. > :12:47.people we are putting up at replacement for Jeremy Corbyn, and

:12:48. > :12:51.they have been focus grouping them. Most members wouldn't know who most

:12:52. > :12:55.of people were let alone most of the public.

:12:56. > :13:02.Angela rain? They are not overwhelmed with leadership

:13:03. > :13:06.potential at the moment. Very diplomatically put. Neither are the

:13:07. > :13:07.Tories, but they happened to have one at the moment. All right. That

:13:08. > :13:11.is it. Now, there's no Daily

:13:12. > :13:13.or Sunday Politics for the next week But the Daily Politics will be back

:13:14. > :13:18.on Monday 20th February and I'll be back here with the Sunday Politics

:13:19. > :13:22.on the 26th. Remember if it's Sunday,

:13:23. > :13:24.it's the Sunday Politics... Just back from

:13:25. > :14:05.a very long shift at work...