:00:34. > :00:36.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:37. > :00:40.She faces huge political fights over Brexit, Scottish independence,
:00:41. > :00:53.After a tumultuous political week, we'll analyse the PM's prospects.
:00:54. > :00:55.With chatter increasing about a possible early General Election,
:00:56. > :01:00.Jeremy Corbyn's campaign chief joins me live.
:01:01. > :01:03.NHS bosses warn health services in England are facing "mission
:01:04. > :01:07.impossible" and waiting times for operations will rocket,
:01:08. > :01:10.unless hospitals are given more cash this year.
:01:11. > :01:15.The chief executive of NHS Providers joins me live.
:01:16. > :01:18.In London this week, a question of space.
:01:19. > :01:21.How the need for new homes in a congested city is getting
:01:22. > :01:35.All that to come before 12:15pm, and I'll also be talking
:01:36. > :01:38.to the former leader of the Liberal Democrats Nick Clegg
:01:39. > :01:40.from his party's spring conference in York.
:01:41. > :01:45.With me here in the studio, throughout the programme,
:01:46. > :01:47.three of the country's top political commentators:
:01:48. > :01:53.Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.
:01:54. > :01:54.They'll be tweeting their thoughts using #bbcsp.
:01:55. > :01:57.So, the political challenges facing Theresa May are stacking up.
:01:58. > :02:03.As well as negotiating Britain's exit from the EU,
:02:04. > :02:06.the PM must now deal with SNP demands for a second referendum
:02:07. > :02:11.on Scottish independence, backbenchers agitating against cuts
:02:12. > :02:14.to school budgets, and a humiliated Chancellor forced to u-turn on a key
:02:15. > :02:19.budget measure just one week after announcing it.
:02:20. > :02:20.Here's Adam Fleming on aturbulent political week
:02:21. > :02:38.Monday, 11:30am, TV crews gather in the residence of the First
:02:39. > :02:39.Minister of Scotland, who's got a surprise.
:02:40. > :02:42.She wants a vote on whether Scotland should leave the UK
:02:43. > :02:46.By taking the steps I have set out today I am ensuring that Scotland's
:02:47. > :02:49.future will be decided, not just by me, the
:02:50. > :02:50.Scottish Government, or the
:02:51. > :02:52.SNP, it will be decided by the people of Scotland.
:02:53. > :03:02.Westminster, 6:25pm the same day, MPs reject
:03:03. > :03:06.amendments to the legislation authorising the Prime Minister to
:03:07. > :03:20.The Bill ceremonially heads to the Lords where peers abandoned
:03:21. > :03:22.attempts to change it and it becomes law.
:03:23. > :03:28.But Downing Street doesn't trigger Article 50 as many had expected.
:03:29. > :03:31.Some say they were spooked by Nicola Sturgeon.
:03:32. > :03:47.We get an e-mail from the Treasury can the
:03:48. > :03:49.We get an e-mail from the Treasury cancelling
:03:50. > :04:00.the planned rise in National Insurance for
:04:01. > :04:02.the self-employed announced the budget.
:04:03. > :04:04.It's just minutes before Prime Minister's Questions at noon.
:04:05. > :04:06.The trend towards greater self-employment does create a
:04:07. > :04:09.We will bring forward further proposals
:04:10. > :04:12.but we will not bring forward increases to NICs later in this
:04:13. > :04:16.It seems to me like a government in a bit of chaos here.
:04:17. > :04:18.By making this change today we are listening to our colleagues
:04:19. > :04:22.fulfil both the letter and the spirit of our manifesto tax
:04:23. > :04:32.Thursday, 7am, Conservative campaign HQ and the
:04:33. > :04:34.Electoral Commission fines the party ?70,000 for misreporting spending
:04:35. > :04:37.But that's not what the Prime Minister
:04:38. > :04:43.Because at 12:19pm she gives her verdict on a
:04:44. > :04:48.We should be working together, not pulling apart.
:04:49. > :04:50.We should be working together to get that
:04:51. > :04:51.right deal for Scotland, that
:04:52. > :04:56.So, as I say, that's my job as Prime Minister and
:04:57. > :05:00.so for that reason I say to the SNP now is not the time.
:05:01. > :05:02.Friday and time for the faithful to gather.
:05:03. > :05:03.SNP activists at their spring conference
:05:04. > :05:14.Conservatives in Cardiff to hear the Prime Minister
:05:15. > :05:18.promote her plan for a more meritocratic Brexit Britain.
:05:19. > :05:20.At 11:10am comes some news about a newspaper that's frankly
:05:21. > :05:27.I'm thrilled and excited to be the new editor of The
:05:28. > :05:29.Evening Standard and, you know, with so many
:05:30. > :05:30.big issues in our world what
:05:31. > :05:36.good analysis, great news journalism.
:05:37. > :05:41.It's a really important time for good journalism that The
:05:42. > :05:42.Evening Standard is going to provide.
:05:43. > :05:49.There was no let-up yesterday as Gordon Brown launched proposals
:05:50. > :05:54.Under my proposals we keep the Barnett
:05:55. > :05:58.Formula, we keep the fiscal transfers, but we also bring the
:05:59. > :06:03.and fisheries back to the Scottish Parliament.
:06:04. > :06:05.And just think, all this and we're still counting down to the
:06:06. > :06:23.What a week in politics. It has been a torrid week for the government,
:06:24. > :06:27.Isabel Oakeshott, but does Theresa May shake it off, or is this a sign
:06:28. > :06:30.of worse to come? We may all be feeling a bit breathless after the
:06:31. > :06:38.events of last week and we are in for a a long war of attrition with
:06:39. > :06:42.the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon's strategy will be to foster over lengthy
:06:43. > :06:47.periods of time as much resentment and anger as she can in Scotland and
:06:48. > :06:52.try to create the impression that independence is somehow inevitable.
:06:53. > :06:56.Is Scotland the biggest challenge for Theresa May in the next year or
:06:57. > :07:00.so? I think it probably is because if you look at how relatively easily
:07:01. > :07:04.the Brexit bill went through on an issue where people could hardly feel
:07:05. > :07:07.more passionate in the Commons, and actually despite all the potential
:07:08. > :07:11.drama it has gone through quite smoothly. To go back to your
:07:12. > :07:16.original question, she just carries on. Don't underestimate the basic
:07:17. > :07:20.quiet and will towards Theresa May amongst the majority of Tory
:07:21. > :07:24.backbenchers. Yes, there are difficult little issues over school
:07:25. > :07:28.funding, sorry, it's not a little issue, it is a big one but she will
:07:29. > :07:32.get over that and treat each thing as it comes and keep pressing on.
:07:33. > :07:37.Has she not called Nicola Sturgeon's Bluff in that the First Minister
:07:38. > :07:42.said I want a referendum, here is roughly when I wanted, the Prime
:07:43. > :07:46.Minister says you're not having one. What happens next? She has done
:07:47. > :07:51.quite well and impact the progress Theresa May made this week in
:07:52. > :07:54.frustrating Nicola Sturgeon was evident when Nicola Sturgeon said,
:07:55. > :07:58.OK, maybe we can talk about the timing after. Nicola Sturgeon has
:07:59. > :08:01.already been the first one to blink. I would slightly disagree with
:08:02. > :08:05.Isabel Oakeshott, I don't agree Scotland will be the biggest hurdle
:08:06. > :08:11.for her. What this week showed as is Theresa May... It was a reality
:08:12. > :08:14.bites week. Theresa May is juggling four mammoth crises at the same
:08:15. > :08:17.time, Brexit obviously which I still think will be the biggest challenge
:08:18. > :08:24.to get a good deal, Trump left field who popped up at GCHQ on Friday and
:08:25. > :08:30.Scotland and the fiscal challenge, this enormous great problem, and it
:08:31. > :08:36.reinforced the point this is not an easy time in politics. The budget is
:08:37. > :08:39.over four years. That was one small problem, the immediate problem is
:08:40. > :08:42.how to fill the social care crisis and the ageing demographic. This is
:08:43. > :08:45.not normal times in British politics and Theresa May does not have a
:08:46. > :08:50.normal workload on her plate, hence why I think we will see more
:08:51. > :08:55.mistakes made as time goes on and as she has this almost impossible
:08:56. > :08:58.workload to juggle. How tempted do you think the Prime Minister is to
:08:59. > :09:03.call an early election? There is more chatter about it now. Is she
:09:04. > :09:07.tempted and if there is will she succumb? I will answer that in a
:09:08. > :09:11.second as Harold Wilson used to say. I want to agree, disagree with the
:09:12. > :09:14.rest of the panel about how she has out manipulated Nicola Sturgeon this
:09:15. > :09:19.week. I think Nicola Sturgeon expected Theresa May to say no to
:09:20. > :09:23.her expected timetable. It would be amazing if she had said yes. She
:09:24. > :09:27.expected her to say no but Sturgeon catalyst that will fuel support for
:09:28. > :09:33.her cause. There is no sign of that. The latest poll this morning shows
:09:34. > :09:39.66-44 against independence and only 13% think they would be better off
:09:40. > :09:43.with an independent Scotland and a clear majority do not want a second
:09:44. > :09:46.referendum. But the calculation of resistance from Westminster combined
:09:47. > :09:49.with Brexit which hasn't started yet, I think this is her
:09:50. > :09:54.calculation, she didn't expect Theresa May to say, sure, go ahead,
:09:55. > :09:58.I'm sure she expected Theresa May to say no, you can't have it at your
:09:59. > :10:02.desired timetable. On the wider point, I think Theresa May is in a
:10:03. > :10:06.fascinating position, she is both strong because she faces weak
:10:07. > :10:11.opposition and is ahead in the opinion polls. But faces the most
:10:12. > :10:16.daunting agenda of any Prime Minister for 40 or 50 years, I
:10:17. > :10:19.think. So it's a weird combination. I don't think she wants to call an
:10:20. > :10:22.election. I don't think she has thought about how you would
:10:23. > :10:26.manipulate it, what the trigger would be, and whether she's got the
:10:27. > :10:32.energy and space to prepare for and then mount a campaign was beginning
:10:33. > :10:37.the Brexit negotiation. Now, you could see the cause would be the
:10:38. > :10:40.small majorities that will make her life hellish, which it will do.
:10:41. > :10:44.Whether a landslide would help is another question, they can be
:10:45. > :10:49.difficult too. But I think the problems outweigh the advantages of
:10:50. > :10:52.going early. Do you think she would go for an early election? I don't
:10:53. > :10:56.and I think you have to look at the rhetoric coming out of No 10 which
:10:57. > :10:59.is so firm on this question, it is a delicious prospect for us as
:11:00. > :11:02.commentators to think there might be an election around the corner but
:11:03. > :11:07.they are so firm on this I can't see it happening. I agree, we are in
:11:08. > :11:09.unanimous agreement on this one. It is superficially attractive because
:11:10. > :11:13.she would love the big majority and she would get a lot more through
:11:14. > :11:17.Parliament especially with Brexit. The nitty-gritty of it makes an
:11:18. > :11:21.early General Election this year almost impossible. How do you write
:11:22. > :11:26.a manifesto on high Brexit versus soft Brexit, it opens up a Pandora's
:11:27. > :11:30.box of uncertainties. And there is enough with the European elections.
:11:31. > :11:34.The EU will say are we negotiating with you or the person who may
:11:35. > :11:38.replace you? How do you keep the Tory party united going to an
:11:39. > :11:42.election? How do you call one, with a vote of no confidence in yourself
:11:43. > :11:43.you may end up losing. Easy on paper but difficult in practice. We shall
:11:44. > :11:45.see. So if Theresa May did go
:11:46. > :11:48.for an early election this spring, The party's campaigns
:11:49. > :11:58.and elections chief Andrew Gwynne Andrew Gwynne, the government, as we
:11:59. > :12:01.have just been talking about, executed one of the most
:12:02. > :12:05.embarrassing U-turns in recent history this week. It has been a
:12:06. > :12:08.torrid time for the Theresa May government. Why are the Tories still
:12:09. > :12:13.so chipper? The Labour Party has been on an
:12:14. > :12:16.early election footing since before Christmas and we are preparing
:12:17. > :12:20.ourselves for that eventuality in case that does come. That means that
:12:21. > :12:25.we've got to get ourselves into a position whereby we can not only
:12:26. > :12:31.challenge the government but we can also offer a valuable alternative
:12:32. > :12:37.for the British people to choose from should that election arise. So,
:12:38. > :12:40.would you welcome an early General Election? Well, of course, I don't
:12:41. > :12:43.want this government to be in power so of course if there is an
:12:44. > :12:47.opportunity to put a case to the British people as to why there is a
:12:48. > :12:52.better way, and I believe the Labour way is the better way than of course
:12:53. > :12:57.we would want to put that case to the country. So, would Labour vote
:12:58. > :13:01.in the Commons for an early election? Well, of course as an
:13:02. > :13:05.opposition, not wanting to be in opposition, wanting to be in
:13:06. > :13:09.government should the government put forward a measure in accordance with
:13:10. > :13:13.the Fixed-term Parliaments Act then that's something we would very
:13:14. > :13:16.seriously have to consider. I know you would have to consider it but
:13:17. > :13:21.would you vote for an early election or not? Well, of course we want to
:13:22. > :13:24.be the government so if the current government puts forward measures to
:13:25. > :13:28.bring forward a General Election we would want to put our case to the
:13:29. > :13:33.British public and that's one of the jobs that I've been given, together
:13:34. > :13:37.Labour Party organisation early into a position where we can fight a
:13:38. > :13:41.General Election -- organisationally. For the avoidance
:13:42. > :13:45.of doubt, if the Government work to issue a motion in the Commons for an
:13:46. > :13:49.early election, the Labour Party would vote for an early election?
:13:50. > :13:53.It would be very difficult not, Andrew. If the Government wants to
:13:54. > :13:56.dissolve parliament, wants a General Election, we don't want the Tories
:13:57. > :14:01.in government, we want to be in government and we want to have that
:14:02. > :14:03.opportunity to put that case to the British people.
:14:04. > :14:12.Are you ready for an early election? You say you have been on a war all
:14:13. > :14:14.but since the Labour conference last autumn, but are you ready for one?
:14:15. > :14:18.How big is the election fighting fund? We have substantial amounts of
:14:19. > :14:22.money in our fighting fund, that is true, because not only has the
:14:23. > :14:27.Labour Party managed to eliminate its own financial deficit that it
:14:28. > :14:35.inherited from previous election campaigns, we have also managed to
:14:36. > :14:40.build up a substantial fund in the off chance we have an election. We
:14:41. > :14:44.have also expanded massively operations at Labour HQ, we are
:14:45. > :14:48.taking on additional staff, and one of the jobs that myself and Ian
:14:49. > :14:51.Lavery who I job share with are currently doing is to go around the
:14:52. > :14:55.Parliamentary Labour Party to make sure that Labour colleagues have the
:14:56. > :14:59.support and the resources that they need, should they have to face the
:15:00. > :15:03.electorate in their constituencies. So you are on a war footing, ready
:15:04. > :15:07.for the fight, you say you would vote for the fight, so have you got
:15:08. > :15:12.your tax and spend policies ready to roll out? That is something the
:15:13. > :15:17.shadow Treasury team will be discussing. One of the things is, if
:15:18. > :15:20.there is an early General Election, the normal timetable for these
:15:21. > :15:25.things gets fast-track because our policy decision-making body, its
:15:26. > :15:30.annual conference, we have the national policy forum that creates
:15:31. > :15:33.policies suggestions. You have been on a war footing since the last
:15:34. > :15:37.Labour conference, that is what Mr Corbyn told us. So you must have a
:15:38. > :15:42.fair idea of what policies you would fight an early election on. How much
:15:43. > :15:46.extra per year would you spend on the NHS? Well, look, I'm not going
:15:47. > :15:50.to set out the Labour manifesto for an election that hasn't been called.
:15:51. > :15:55.I'm just asking you about the NHS. You must have a policy for that. We
:15:56. > :16:01.have a policy for the NHS. So how much extra? I will not set out
:16:02. > :16:04.Labour's tax-and-spend policies here on The Sunday Politics when there
:16:05. > :16:08.hasn't even been election called. You said you had been on a war
:16:09. > :16:14.footing and you are prepared to vote for one, so if you can't Tommy that,
:16:15. > :16:19.can you tell me what the corporation rate tax on company profits be under
:16:20. > :16:25.a Labour government -- tell me that. You will have to be patient. I have.
:16:26. > :16:28.And wait for Mrs May to trigger an early election. If there is an
:16:29. > :16:33.election on the 4th of May the rich would have to be issued on the 27th
:16:34. > :16:38.of March, so that's not long to wait. If that date passes we aren't
:16:39. > :16:43.having an election on the 4th of May and the normal timetable for policy
:16:44. > :16:47.development will continue. All right. You lost Copeland, I think
:16:48. > :16:51.you were in charge of a by-election for Labour, your national poll
:16:52. > :16:56.ratings are still dire, even after week of terrible times for the
:16:57. > :17:00.Tories. Sometimes you even lose local government by-elections in
:17:01. > :17:04.safe seats, including in the place you are now, in Salford. How long
:17:05. > :17:09.does Mr Corbyn have to turn this around? Well, look, the issue of the
:17:10. > :17:13.Labour leadership was settled last year. The last thing the Labour
:17:14. > :17:17.Party now needs is another period of introspection with the Labour Party
:17:18. > :17:24.merely talks to the Labour Party. We are now on an election footing in
:17:25. > :17:29.case Mrs May does trigger an early General Election. We need to be
:17:30. > :17:33.talking to the British people are not to ourselves. So any speculation
:17:34. > :17:37.about the Labour leadership might excite you in the media but actually
:17:38. > :17:40.for us in the Labour Party it's about re-engaging and reconnecting
:17:41. > :17:44.with the voters. Rather than being excited, I feel quite daunted at the
:17:45. > :17:50.prospect of an early election. So I wouldn't get that right. Normally,
:17:51. > :17:54.given the number of mistakes this government has made, and its
:17:55. > :17:58.mid-term, you would expect any self-respecting opposition to be
:17:59. > :18:04.about ten points ahead. On the latest polls this morning you are 17
:18:05. > :18:08.behind. There is a 27-30 point gap from where you should normally be as
:18:09. > :18:11.an opposition. Are you telling me that if that doesn't change, you
:18:12. > :18:17.still fight the General Election with Mr Corbyn?
:18:18. > :18:25.These are matters for the future. I believe the leadership issue was
:18:26. > :18:29.settled last year. We have had two leadership contest in two years.
:18:30. > :18:33.Would you seriously contemplate going into the next election, if it
:18:34. > :18:39.is early I perfectly understand Jeremy Corbyn is your man, but if it
:18:40. > :18:43.is not until 2020, and you are still 17 points behind in the polls, will
:18:44. > :18:48.you go into the next election like that? There is a lot of future
:18:49. > :18:57.looking and speculation there, I don't know what the future holds,
:18:58. > :18:59.where the Labour Party will be in 12 months let alone by 2020 summit
:19:00. > :19:02.cross those bridges when we come to it. My main challenge is to make
:19:03. > :19:05.sure the Labour Party is in the best possible place organisationally to
:19:06. > :19:08.fight an election, that's my challenge and I'm up for that to
:19:09. > :19:15.make sure we are in the best possible place to make sure Labour
:19:16. > :19:21.returns as many Labour MPs as possible. Thank you for joining us.
:19:22. > :19:23.And we're joined now from the Liberal Democrats' spring
:19:24. > :19:25.conference in York by the former Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg.
:19:26. > :19:34.Good morning. In his conference speech today, Tim Farron lumps
:19:35. > :19:39.Theresa May with Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump. In
:19:40. > :19:48.what way is Mrs May similar to Marine Le Pen? Of course he is not
:19:49. > :19:53.saying Theresa May is identical to Marine Le Pen, I think what Tim
:19:54. > :19:57.Wilby spelling out shortly in his speech is that we need to be aware
:19:58. > :20:04.what's going on in the world, the International settlement that was
:20:05. > :20:10.arrived at after the First World -- Second World War, that bound
:20:11. > :20:15.supranational organisations is under attack from characters as diverse as
:20:16. > :20:19.Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump, and that by side in so
:20:20. > :20:23.ostentatiously with Donald Trump and pursuing this very hard Brexit,
:20:24. > :20:28.Theresa May appears to be giving succour to that much more
:20:29. > :20:32.isolationist chauvinist view of the world than the multilateral approach
:20:33. > :20:38.that Britain has subscribed to for a long time. The exact words he plans
:20:39. > :20:46.to use are welcome to the New World order, Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump,
:20:47. > :20:52.Marine Le Pen, Theresa May, aggressive and teenage to, anti-EU,
:20:53. > :20:56.nationalistic. In what way is Mrs May fitting into any of that? In
:20:57. > :21:02.what way is she similar to Vladimir Putin? I'm not aware she has
:21:03. > :21:07.interfered with other people's elections. The clue is in the quote
:21:08. > :21:12.you just read out, which is the world order. The world order over
:21:13. > :21:16.the last half century or more, by the way a lesson I'm afraid we have
:21:17. > :21:21.to learn in Europe because of the terrible bloodshed of two world was
:21:22. > :21:26.in the space of a few decades, was based on the idea might is not
:21:27. > :21:32.right. Strong arm leaders cannot throw their weight around. What we
:21:33. > :21:38.have now with Putin, the populism across parts of Europe and Donald
:21:39. > :21:43.Trump who thinks the EU will unravel is a shift to a radically different
:21:44. > :21:49.view of the world. Mrs May doesn't think any of that. She is not
:21:50. > :21:55.antenatal, not anti-EU, she says she wants the EU to succeed. She's not
:21:56. > :21:58.aggressive as far as I'm aware so I'm not sure why you would lump the
:21:59. > :22:05.British Prime Minister in with these other characters. Let me explain, by
:22:06. > :22:13.choosing this uncompromising approach to Brexit, clearly in doing
:22:14. > :22:17.so she, in my view, maybe not yours or others, is pursuing a self
:22:18. > :22:20.harming approach to the United Kingdom but also pulling up the
:22:21. > :22:25.threads that bind the rest of the European Union together, in so
:22:26. > :22:30.ostentatiously siding with Donald Trump, somehow declaring in my view
:22:31. > :22:39.speciously that we can make up with the trade we will lose, she's not
:22:40. > :22:43.challenging the shift to a more chauvinist approach to world affairs
:22:44. > :22:48.that is happening in many places. You are at your party's Spring
:22:49. > :22:53.conference, I think we can agree any Lib Dem come back will take a long
:22:54. > :22:58.time. Would Tory dominance be more effectively challenged by a
:22:59. > :23:03.realignment of the centre and the centre-left? Are you working towards
:23:04. > :23:10.that? I missed half the question but I think you are talking about a
:23:11. > :23:14.realignment. As a cook a way to get over Tory dominance, would you want
:23:15. > :23:20.that to happen? Are you working towards that? My view is the
:23:21. > :23:24.recovery of the Lib Dems will be quicker than you suggest. People
:23:25. > :23:28.often forget that even the low point of our fortunes in the last election
:23:29. > :23:33.we still got a million more votes than the SNP, it's only because we
:23:34. > :23:41.have got this crazy electoral system... But the SNP fight in
:23:42. > :23:47.Scotland, you fight in the whole country! But I'm saying the way
:23:48. > :23:56.seats are allocated overlooks the fact that 2.5 million still voted
:23:57. > :24:00.for us. But my own view is of course there are people feeling
:24:01. > :24:03.increasingly homeless in the liberal wing of the Conservative Party
:24:04. > :24:07.because they are now in a party which is in effect indistinguishable
:24:08. > :24:14.from Ukip on some of the biggest issues of the day, and homeless folk
:24:15. > :24:18.on the rational, reasonable wing of the Labour Party. I would invite
:24:19. > :24:22.them to join the Liberal Democrats and I would invite everyone across
:24:23. > :24:27.parties to talk about the idea is that bind us because the Westminster
:24:28. > :24:31.village can invest a lot of energy building new castles in the sky,
:24:32. > :24:34.inventing new names for parties when actually what you want is for people
:24:35. > :24:46.on the progressive centre ground of British politics to talk about the
:24:47. > :24:51.ideas that unite them, from the dilemmas of artificial intelligence
:24:52. > :24:55.to climate change. Do you think in your own view, can Brexit still be
:24:56. > :25:04.thwarted or is it now a matter of getting the best terms? I think we
:25:05. > :25:08.are in an interlude, almost a calm between two storms, the storm of the
:25:09. > :25:12.referendum itself and the collision between the Government's stated
:25:13. > :25:16.ambitions for Brexit and the reality of having to negotiate something
:25:17. > :25:21.unworkable with 27 other governments. The one thing I can
:25:22. > :25:32.guarantee you is that what the Government has promised to the
:25:33. > :25:37.British people cannot happen. Over a slower period of time we will work
:25:38. > :25:41.out our new relationship with the European Union. Theresa May said she
:25:42. > :25:48.will settle divorce arrangements, and pensions, so one, negotiate new
:25:49. > :25:52.trade agreements, new climate change policies and so on, and have all of
:25:53. > :25:57.that ratified within two years, that will not happen so I think there
:25:58. > :26:02.will be a lot of turbulence in the next couple of years. Will you use
:26:03. > :26:09.this turbulence to try to thwart Brexit, to find a way of rolling
:26:10. > :26:13.back the decision? It's not about repeating the debates of the past or
:26:14. > :26:18.thwarting the will of the people but it is comparing what people were
:26:19. > :26:24.promised from the ?350 million for the NHS every week through to this
:26:25. > :26:28.glittering array of new trade agreements we will sign across the
:26:29. > :26:32.world, with the reality that will transpire in the next couple of
:26:33. > :26:36.years and at that point, yes it is my belief people should be able to
:26:37. > :26:40.take a second look at if that is what they really want. A couple of
:26:41. > :26:48.quick questions, would you welcome an early general election? I always
:26:49. > :26:55.welcome them, we couldn't do worse than we did last time. That is
:26:56. > :26:57.certainly true. You have a column in the Evening Standard, have you
:26:58. > :27:04.spoken to the new editor about whether he will keep your column or
:27:05. > :27:11.spike it? No, I wait in nervous anticipation. Can you be a newspaper
:27:12. > :27:19.editor in the morning and an MP in the afternoon? Do I think that's
:27:20. > :27:24.feasible? Sorry, I missed a bit. There is no prohibition, no law
:27:25. > :27:29.against MPs being editors. They have been in the past and no doubt will
:27:30. > :27:36.again in the future. He is taking a lot on, he is an editor, also
:27:37. > :27:40.wanting to be an MP, a jetsetting academic in the States, working in
:27:41. > :27:45.the city, I suspect something will give. It seems to me even by his
:27:46. > :27:51.self-confidence standards in his own abilities I suspect he is taking on
:27:52. > :27:54.a little bit too much. Very diplomatic, Mr Clegg, I'm sure you
:27:55. > :27:59.will get to keep the column. Thanks for joining us.
:28:00. > :28:01.Now, for the last six months England's NHS bosses have been
:28:02. > :28:04.warning the health service needs more money to help it meet
:28:05. > :28:07.But in his first Budget, the Chancellor offered
:28:08. > :28:09.no immediate relief, and today the head of
:28:10. > :28:11.the organisation representing England's NHS trusts says hundreds
:28:12. > :28:14.of thousands of patients will have to wait longer for both emergency
:28:15. > :28:15.care and planned operations, unless the Government
:28:16. > :28:23.Warnings over funding are not exactly new.
:28:24. > :28:26.Back in 2014 the head of the NHS in England, Simon Stevens,
:28:27. > :28:31.published his plan for the future of the health service.
:28:32. > :28:34.In his five-year forward view, Stevens said the NHS in England
:28:35. > :28:37.would face a funding shortfall of up to ?30 billion by 2020.
:28:38. > :28:40.To bridge that gap he said the NHS would need more money
:28:41. > :28:43.from the Government, at least ?8 billion extra,
:28:44. > :28:46.and that the health service could account for the rest by making
:28:47. > :28:53.The Government says it's given the health service more than what it
:28:54. > :28:56.asked for, and that NHS in England will have received
:28:57. > :29:01.That number is disputed by NHS managers and the chair
:29:02. > :29:03.of Parliament's health committee, who say the figure is more
:29:04. > :29:07.like ?4.5 billion, while other parts of the health and social care budget
:29:08. > :29:12.have been cut, putting pressure on the front line.
:29:13. > :29:16.Last year, two thirds of NHS trusts in England finished
:29:17. > :29:18.the year in the red, and despite emergency bailouts
:29:19. > :29:20.from the Government, the NHS is likely to record
:29:21. > :29:25.Meanwhile national targets on waiting times for A
:29:26. > :29:28.departments, diagnostic tests, and operations are being
:29:29. > :29:35.This month's Budget provided ?2 billion for social care
:29:36. > :29:39.but there was no new cash for the NHS, leading trusts to warn
:29:40. > :29:42.that patient care is beginning to suffer, and what is being asked
:29:43. > :29:48.And I'm joined now by the Chief Executive of NHS
:29:49. > :29:53.Providers in England, Chris Hopson.
:29:54. > :30:00.Welcome to the programme. Morning, Andrew. I will come onto the extra
:30:01. > :30:05.money you need to do your job properly in a minute but first, part
:30:06. > :30:08.of the deal was you had to make 22 billion in efficiency savings, not a
:30:09. > :30:14.bank that money but spend it on patient care, the front line, and so
:30:15. > :30:17.on. How is that going? So, last parliament we realised around 18
:30:18. > :30:20.billion of productivity and efficiency savings, we are realising
:30:21. > :30:24.more this year so we are on course to realise 3 billion this year, that
:30:25. > :30:29.is a quarter of a billion more than last year but all of us in the NHS
:30:30. > :30:33.knew the 22 billion would be a very stretching target and we are
:30:34. > :30:40.somewhat inevitably falling short. So it is 22 billion by 2,020.
:30:41. > :30:48.Roughly. That was the time. We are now into 2017. So how much of the 22
:30:49. > :30:53.billion have you achieved? We realised around 3 billion last year
:30:54. > :30:59.and we will realise 3 billion this year, Court of billion more, 3.25
:31:00. > :31:03.billion this year, so we are on course for 18-19,000,000,000. By the
:31:04. > :31:07.2021 period? You are not that far away. The problem is the degree to
:31:08. > :31:12.which demand is going up. We have record demand over the winter period
:31:13. > :31:16.and that actually meant we have seen more people than we have ever seen
:31:17. > :31:22.before but performance is still under real pressure. Let me come
:31:23. > :31:26.onto that. When you agreed on the 22 billion efficiency savings plus some
:31:27. > :31:30.extra money from the government, I know there is a bit of an argument
:31:31. > :31:35.about how much that is actually worth, had you not factored in this
:31:36. > :31:39.extra demand that you saw coming over the next three or four years?
:31:40. > :31:44.Let's be very clear committee referred to Simon Stevens's forward
:31:45. > :31:48.view and we signed up to it but the 22 billion was a process run at the
:31:49. > :31:51.centre of government by the Department of Health with its arms
:31:52. > :31:55.length bodies, NHS England and others and is not something that was
:31:56. > :31:59.consulted on with the NHS. But you signed up to it. We always said that
:32:00. > :32:05.the day that that Spending Review was announced, the idea that the NHS
:32:06. > :32:09.where customer demand goes up something like four or 5% every
:32:10. > :32:12.year, the idea that in the middle years of Parliament we would be able
:32:13. > :32:18.to provide the same level of service when we were only getting funding
:32:19. > :32:23.increases of 1.3%, 0.4% and 0.7%, and I can show you the press release
:32:24. > :32:27.we issued, we always said there was going to be a gap and that we would
:32:28. > :32:34.not be able to deliver what was required. The full 22 billion in
:32:35. > :32:36.other words? What we said to Simon Stevens at the Public Accounts
:32:37. > :32:42.Committee a few months ago, the NHS didn't get what it was asked for.
:32:43. > :32:49.Today the NHS, cope with the resources it has according to you.
:32:50. > :32:52.How much more does it need? Are reported is about 2017-18 and we
:32:53. > :32:56.estimate that what we are being asked to do, and again, Andrew, you
:32:57. > :33:01.clearly set it out in the package, we are a long way off the four-hour
:33:02. > :33:05.A target and a long way off the 92%. The waiting times and
:33:06. > :33:10.operations. How much more do you need? And we are making up a ?900
:33:11. > :33:15.million deficit. If you take all of those into account we estimate you
:33:16. > :33:19.would need an extra ?3.5 billion next year in order to deliver all of
:33:20. > :33:23.those targets and eliminate the deficit. That would be 3.5 billion
:33:24. > :33:28.on top of what is already planned next year and that would be 3.5
:33:29. > :33:30.billion repeated in the years to come too? Yes, Andrew it is
:33:31. > :33:36.important we should make an important distinction about the NHS
:33:37. > :33:40.versus other public services. When the last government, the last Labour
:33:41. > :33:44.government put extra money into the NHS it clearly said that in return
:33:45. > :33:48.for that it would establish some standards in the NHS Constitution,
:33:49. > :33:53.the 95% A target we have talked about and the 92% elective surgery
:33:54. > :33:56.we have talked about. The trust we represent are very clear, they would
:33:57. > :34:00.want to realise those standards, but you can only do it if you pay for
:34:01. > :34:05.it. The problem is at the moment is we are in the longest and deepest
:34:06. > :34:09.financial squeeze in NHS history. As we have said, funding is only going
:34:10. > :34:14.up by 1% per year but every year just to stand still cost and demand
:34:15. > :34:19.go up by more than 4%. There is clearly a demand for more money. I
:34:20. > :34:22.think people watching this programme will think probably the NHS is going
:34:23. > :34:27.to have to get more money to meet the goals you have been given. I
:34:28. > :34:32.think they would also like to be sure that your Mac running the NHS
:34:33. > :34:36.as efficiently as it could be. We read this morning that trusts have
:34:37. > :34:41.got ?100 million of empty properties that cost 10 million to maintain, 36
:34:42. > :34:46.office blocks are not being used, you have surplus land equivalent to
:34:47. > :34:51.1800 football pitches. Yes, there are a number of things that we know
:34:52. > :34:56.in the NHS we need to do better but let me remind you, Andrew, in the
:34:57. > :34:59.last Parliament we realised ?18 billion worth of cost improvement
:35:00. > :35:06.gains. We are going to realise another 3 billion this year, 0.25
:35:07. > :35:09.billion more than last year so these things are being targeted. But
:35:10. > :35:12.having that surplus land, it is almost certainly in areas where
:35:13. > :35:19.there is a demand for housing. Absolutely. So why not release it
:35:20. > :35:23.for housing? You get the money, the people get their houses and its
:35:24. > :35:26.contribution and a signal that you are running NHS assets as
:35:27. > :35:31.efficiently as you can? Tell me if I'm going to too much detail for
:35:32. > :35:35.you. One of the reasons as to why our trusts are reluctant to realise
:35:36. > :35:39.those land sales is because there is an assumption that the money would
:35:40. > :35:43.go back to the Treasury and wouldn't benefit NHS trusts. You could make a
:35:44. > :35:47.deal, couldn't you? That's part of the conversation going on at the
:35:48. > :35:52.moment. The issue is that we would want to ensure that if we do release
:35:53. > :36:04.land, quite rightly the benefit, particularly in foundation trusts
:36:05. > :36:05.which are, as you will remember, deliberately autonomous
:36:06. > :36:07.organisations, that they should keep the benefit of those land sales.
:36:08. > :36:08.Have you raised that with the government?
:36:09. > :36:20.Yes we have. What did they say? They are in discussions of it. We heard
:36:21. > :36:25.somebody who moved from one job and then to another job and given a big
:36:26. > :36:29.salary and then almost ?200,000 as a payoff. There is a national mood for
:36:30. > :36:32.the NHS to get more money. But before you give anybody any more
:36:33. > :36:36.money you want to be sure that the money you have got already is being
:36:37. > :36:41.properly spent, which for us, is the patient at the end of the day. And
:36:42. > :36:49.yet there seem to be these enormous salaries and payoffs. I've worked in
:36:50. > :36:51.a FTSE 100 on the board of Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs and I
:36:52. > :36:54.have worked in large organisations. I can look you completely straight
:36:55. > :36:57.in the eye and tell you that the jobs that our hospital, community,
:36:58. > :37:00.mental health and ambulance chief Executives do are amongst the most
:37:01. > :37:05.complicated leadership roles I have ever seen. It doesn't seem to me to
:37:06. > :37:08.be unreasonable that in order to get the right quality of people we
:37:09. > :37:12.should pay an appropriate salary. The reality is the salaries are paid
:37:13. > :37:17.are not excessive when talking about managing budgets of over ?1 billion
:37:18. > :37:24.a year and talking about managing tens of thousands of staff. There
:37:25. > :37:28.was a doctor working as a locum that earned an extra ?375,000. One of the
:37:29. > :37:32.problems in the NHS is a mismatch between the number of staff we need
:37:33. > :37:35.and the number of staff coming through the pipeline. What is having
:37:36. > :37:40.to happen is if you want to keep a service going you have to use Mackem
:37:41. > :37:46.and agency staff. Even at that cost? You would not want to pay those
:37:47. > :37:50.amounts. But you are. The chief Executives's choice in those areas
:37:51. > :37:55.is giving the service open or employing a locum. I'm sure you
:37:56. > :37:58.could find a locum prepared to work for less than that. What indication,
:37:59. > :38:03.what hopes do you have of getting the extra ?3 billion? The government
:38:04. > :38:08.has been very clear, for the moment it wants to stick to the existing
:38:09. > :38:12.funding settlement it has agreed. So there was nothing in the budget. Can
:38:13. > :38:17.I finish by making one important point. Please, finish. This is the
:38:18. > :38:23.first time the NHS has said before the year has even started that we
:38:24. > :38:28.can't deliver on those standards. We believe, as do most people who work
:38:29. > :38:32.in the NHS, that the NHS is on a gradual slow decline. This is a very
:38:33. > :38:35.important inflection point to Mark, this is the first time before the
:38:36. > :38:39.financial year starts that we say we cannot meet the targets we are being
:38:40. > :38:43.asked to deliver and are in the NHS Constitution. We have run out of
:38:44. > :38:44.time. Chris Hopson, thank you for being with me.
:38:45. > :38:46.It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:38:47. > :38:49.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:38:50. > :38:52.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
:38:53. > :38:59.First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:39:00. > :39:06.This week, we've got more on Brexit and the course the Mayor wants
:39:07. > :39:13.Then later, a look at the dimensions of our homes.
:39:14. > :39:17.Why the need for new homes in a congested city
:39:18. > :39:21.is getting developers to think, well, small.
:39:22. > :39:23.Here with me thinking big, Stephen Hammond Conservative MP
:39:24. > :39:30.for Wimbledon and Dawn Butler, Labour MP for Brent Central.
:39:31. > :39:36.Welcome to you both. Let's start with the news late this week.
:39:37. > :39:40.Evening Standard has a new editor. There are so many big issues in the
:39:41. > :39:44.world, what people want are authoritative facts, good analysis,
:39:45. > :39:46.great news journalism and it's an important time for good journalism
:39:47. > :39:49.and The Evening Standard is going to provide it.
:39:50. > :39:55.What did you think of that appointment? I am stunned by the
:39:56. > :40:00.appointment, he is not qualified journalist to have such a huge role.
:40:01. > :40:03.When I first heard it, I thought OK, fine, they will be a by-election and
:40:04. > :40:07.then I heard there isn't going to be a by-election so he's going to have
:40:08. > :40:12.three jobs, all well paid, one of them ?13,000 a day, one of them he
:40:13. > :40:16.is not even qualified for. That is privilege in all its forms. I think,
:40:17. > :40:20.is it good for London? Is it good for The Evening Standard? I hope
:40:21. > :40:24.George Osborne will not be biased but he's not a journalist, so how
:40:25. > :40:29.does it work? How can you have a job as an editor of a major newspaper
:40:30. > :40:35.and not be a journalist? How does it work? So, you approve of that!
:40:36. > :40:38.Stephen Hammond, there is life after being Chancellor. Clearly George is
:40:39. > :40:41.a talented individual and it is a surprise to a lot of people but
:40:42. > :40:45.against that we in London need as many people to stand up for us as we
:40:46. > :40:49.can and I think George will insure that happens. People forget he has a
:40:50. > :40:54.big hinterland of interest beyond just politics. He has was been a
:40:55. > :40:57.huge supporter of the arts, and infrastructure, so those sorts of
:40:58. > :41:01.things are the things... But so am I! Those are the key things London
:41:02. > :41:05.need and the key thing is The Evening Standard will do. Both The
:41:06. > :41:09.Evening Standard who wanted a high profile editor have got one, and
:41:10. > :41:13.also George, would recognise they are not going to fall into the
:41:14. > :41:19.stupidity trap of being biased. I think a lot of this is going to be
:41:20. > :41:22.overstated. Presumably if people are expecting The Evening Standard to
:41:23. > :41:30.continue to steer the same impartial and nonpartisan political stance, he
:41:31. > :41:34.will want to surprise, would he? It's not impossible for him to be
:41:35. > :41:39.neutral in his reporting, but I just don't know how he will fit that all
:41:40. > :41:42.in. He's an MP, that takes up a lot of time. If it doesn't then he is
:41:43. > :41:45.doing something wrong. He has another job on top of that and then
:41:46. > :41:49.he is going to be editor of The Evening Standard. How will he fit
:41:50. > :41:52.that in? What he said to the staff on Friday, of course he would put
:41:53. > :41:56.London first, if it's good for London he will say so and if not it
:41:57. > :42:02.would be. We can expect him to be entirely fair with Sadiq Khan, the
:42:03. > :42:05.Labour Mayor of London. It is quite good news for Sadiq Khan because he
:42:06. > :42:08.will want to be over fair and overcompensate. Some people worry it
:42:09. > :42:14.might let Sadiq Khan off the hook of it. I think this is an issue. I
:42:15. > :42:17.understand his comments to the staff on Friday were extremely impressive.
:42:18. > :42:21.I also think, we all know who the political reporters of The Evening
:42:22. > :42:25.Standard are who do a great job and I can't imagine George will get
:42:26. > :42:28.involved in that. So, Dawn Butler, tell us that George Osborne is a
:42:29. > :42:39.good editor but do it in sign language. Erm, he's an editor. This
:42:40. > :42:46.is good, this isn't good. What's bad? Bad is this. The reason I bring
:42:47. > :42:48.that up is of course because of this and you in the House earlier this
:42:49. > :42:51.week. Sorry...the 18th of March marks
:42:52. > :42:56.the 14th anniversary since the UK Government recognised
:42:57. > :43:12.British sign language? Slightly hesitant, you almost had to
:43:13. > :43:15.look down at your notes. I was nervous, really nervous. I hadn't
:43:16. > :43:18.read about how you got involved in it. I learned it 20 years ago
:43:19. > :43:25.because I worked with somebody who was deaf and I thought we needed to
:43:26. > :43:30.be more accommodating and I thought I should learn sign language up to
:43:31. > :43:35.level two. It was great fun. Did you see it? I didn't see it but I think
:43:36. > :43:38.even more people have seen it because of being in the House and it
:43:39. > :43:42.is impressive and the right thing to say. I hope the Government gave her
:43:43. > :43:45.a good response. And a quirk of fate we had you on the programme this
:43:46. > :43:47.week. So, let's move on. The Mayor was grilled by MPs this
:43:48. > :43:51.week on how he's going to steer In City Hall's response
:43:52. > :43:54.to the Government's initial Brexit blueprint, Sadiq Khan said access
:43:55. > :43:56.to the single market was crucial, EU nationals here should
:43:57. > :43:58.have their status clarified immediately, and an 'interim' plan
:43:59. > :44:01.was needed in case no trade and regulatory deals are in place
:44:02. > :44:05.in two years' time at the point The Government's Brexit Bill has
:44:06. > :44:14.passed, clearing the path for the Prime Minister to trigger
:44:15. > :44:17.Article 50 and negotiate Britain's exit from the EU,
:44:18. > :44:19.but here in London many are concerned about what will come
:44:20. > :44:24.of those negotiations. These protesters are angry
:44:25. > :44:26.about the Government's refusal to guarantee the rights of EU
:44:27. > :44:32.nationals to stay. We are talking about people who have
:44:33. > :44:35.contributed to this society, who are married to British people,
:44:36. > :44:40.who have British children, and they should not become pawns
:44:41. > :44:45.in Theresa May's game. One in ten Londoners
:44:46. > :44:52.were born in the EU, and they're particularly prominent
:44:53. > :44:54.in the capital's construction They are at the heart
:44:55. > :44:57.of City Hall's response to the Government's Brexit White Paper,
:44:58. > :45:00.in which the mayor calls for a cast-iron guarantee to EU
:45:01. > :45:04.nationals before negotiations. Other demands include more powers
:45:05. > :45:07.for London over the allocation of work permits in the capital,
:45:08. > :45:10.and continued access to the single market after Brexit,
:45:11. > :45:12.unless and until a new trade agreement with the EU
:45:13. > :45:19.has been reached. That would require what's been
:45:20. > :45:22.called an interim deal, as Sadiq Khan explained
:45:23. > :45:24.to parliament's Brexit Why not err on the side of caution
:45:25. > :45:31.and have an interim deal should it be the case that in less
:45:32. > :45:40.than two years we have got --not reached a deal with the EU,
:45:41. > :45:44.so in two years and one day rather than falling off a cliff edge -
:45:45. > :45:47.by the way a phrase used in the White Paper -
:45:48. > :45:49.going to WTO terms, But will World Trade Organisation
:45:50. > :45:53.rules be as catastrophic I think in the medium term,
:45:54. > :45:57.if anything, under WTO rules the City of London could do better
:45:58. > :46:06.than if it had a trade which might constrain it
:46:07. > :46:09.in some sort of way. If we weren't akin to the EU
:46:10. > :46:12.regulations, we could deregulate, there would be more competitors
:46:13. > :46:14.and we could become more globally It will be two years of negotiations
:46:15. > :46:25.before we know for sure. The point some MPs were making to
:46:26. > :46:31.Sadiq Khan during that session was why talk about, what's the point of
:46:32. > :46:36.creating an interim deal because it weakens your negotiating position,
:46:37. > :46:44.there will be a deal, no problem. It doesn't weaken it. I've always been
:46:45. > :46:47.told that if you fail to plan you plan to fail and Sadiq Khan is
:46:48. > :46:53.saying we need a planned because Theresa May says she won't do a bad
:46:54. > :47:00.deal, no deal is better than a bad deal, well actually no deal is a bad
:47:01. > :47:03.deal. In order for London not collapse it needs to have an interim
:47:04. > :47:06.deal so that it doesn't fall over the cliff edge, so businesses can
:47:07. > :47:11.feel confident in doing business in London and not as they are currently
:47:12. > :47:18.doing, talking about moving out of London. If we move businesses out of
:47:19. > :47:21.London, remember, business is the capital, it is where economy grows.
:47:22. > :47:29.Can you imagine if that was to collapse? Any danger of firms moving
:47:30. > :47:33.out of London? Clearly there is a danger, and that is right Philip
:47:34. > :47:38.Hammond and David Davies have said the same thing, which is that mini
:47:39. > :47:42.to do two things in the first part of negotiations, to guarantee the
:47:43. > :47:47.rights of EU citizens to live here, but what the Home Secretary said
:47:48. > :47:52.about putting that into the repeal Bill their rights guarantees it, and
:47:53. > :47:56.it does although we want to see a reciprocal deal. Secondly, David
:47:57. > :48:00.Davis and Philip Hammond have said we need transitional arrangements
:48:01. > :48:05.because it may be difficult to get a deal within two years and a lot of
:48:06. > :48:08.people think that to be true. As the Prime Minister said, we want to
:48:09. > :48:11.avoid the cliff edge and that's why we want the transitional
:48:12. > :48:19.arrangements in place. The Mayor wants to create the impression... He
:48:20. > :48:23.respects the mandate of the people, but at the same time being critical
:48:24. > :48:31.of the status of EU workers, the lack of an internal deal... Dawn and
:48:32. > :48:36.I both voted the same way which was to Remain but we are not fighting
:48:37. > :48:39.that bottle any more, we are leaving the European Union and the key is
:48:40. > :48:43.how we leave and we want to make sure there is a good deal for
:48:44. > :48:46.London. I've been in a lot of work with financial industries to make
:48:47. > :48:51.sure the negotiating position that would be good for them in terms of
:48:52. > :48:54.access, potentially looking at passports, the Government
:48:55. > :48:59.understands those and I'm pleased to see that will be at the forefront...
:49:00. > :49:07.You're making that case on behalf of firms? I stood up at a big meeting
:49:08. > :49:09.ten days ago to launch Brexit negotiations, I'm doing several
:49:10. > :49:16.things with people behind the scenes. Now the decision has been
:49:17. > :49:22.made, tell me how good the capital will be in three years' time in its
:49:23. > :49:31.financial sector. The key thing now is to stand up and fight fire with
:49:32. > :49:34.fire. What is going to be good? One second, firstly we have to say
:49:35. > :49:40.London is still going to be the best place to do business in all sorts of
:49:41. > :49:44.industries, and we need to stop other countries and companies coming
:49:45. > :49:49.through London trying to weed people away. That is a big focus for the
:49:50. > :49:53.Government and the mayor to talk London up. Then we need to negotiate
:49:54. > :49:58.harder and don't forget there is quite a good reason London is so
:49:59. > :50:01.successful, so powerful, and it's because there are all those
:50:02. > :50:05.infrastructure in what they call the ecosystem around industries in
:50:06. > :50:09.London and it is difficult to replicate that anywhere else. What
:50:10. > :50:14.one is beginning to hear quietly is that certain other places realise
:50:15. > :50:19.that and maybe to benefit to find mutual... How will this make the
:50:20. > :50:26.capital of illegal place in five years? 40% of businesses in the UK
:50:27. > :50:31.are already talk about leaving or moving parts of their organisation
:50:32. > :50:39.outside of the UK. How can they come to that? We have this transitional
:50:40. > :50:41.deal and it kicks in, and after two years if Theresa May hasn't
:50:42. > :50:46.negotiated a deal that is better than what we have now, which is
:50:47. > :50:52.extremely unlikely, then that's when it kicks in. So you are saying this
:50:53. > :50:56.is disastrous. No, I'm saying we need to have a solid plan because
:50:57. > :51:01.you need to have stability in the market. 1 million people from the EU
:51:02. > :51:07.work in London, they need stability, so we are saying the Prime Minister
:51:08. > :51:11.will be negotiating for two years, she will try her best and then see
:51:12. > :51:13.what she can negotiate after that and I think it is a fair point. Fair
:51:14. > :51:15.enough. London is one of the least densely
:51:16. > :51:18.populated metropolises in the world. But the desperate need for more
:51:19. > :51:20.housing may soon change that. At City Hall there are now
:51:21. > :51:23.discussions going on about whether we should be
:51:24. > :51:24.building more densely? Not many major city's public
:51:25. > :51:34.transport systems run through In fact, Botany Bay in north London
:51:35. > :51:38.is something rather special. The people here get
:51:39. > :51:41.to enjoy more open space than in any other
:51:42. > :51:43.part of the capital. Now, this is the least densely
:51:44. > :51:45.populated part, not just of London, but possibly any
:51:46. > :51:47.major city in the world. There's just 123 people living
:51:48. > :51:49.here in every Now, there's a very
:51:50. > :51:52.good reason for that. What that means for the rest
:51:53. > :52:02.of London is that because you can't expand around the capital's
:52:03. > :52:04.perimeter, the pressure everywhere When large sites do become
:52:05. > :52:09.available, like around Battersea Power Station,
:52:10. > :52:12.the pressure is on. More and more homes are being
:52:13. > :52:14.squeezed into what Now, developers of course
:52:15. > :52:20.want to make money but they also are under enormous pressure
:52:21. > :52:23.from the politicians, who are trying to build as many homes as possible
:52:24. > :52:25.to deal The result is that
:52:26. > :52:29.sites like this are going to be built with incredible
:52:30. > :52:32.density of a type that London has Millharbour, just
:52:33. > :52:36.south of Canary Wharf. It's the most densely
:52:37. > :52:39.populated part of the UK It's 9,000 times as dense
:52:40. > :52:51.as the core of Enfield where we started this film,
:52:52. > :52:54.and it's even ten times as dense This, I think, is the pattern
:52:55. > :52:58.of the future and not only If you look in places
:52:59. > :53:01.like Wembley and Harrow even, you begin to see not
:53:02. > :53:05.things quite as dense as this but things that are beginning
:53:06. > :53:08.to look more like this. The downside is that you do end up,
:53:09. > :53:13.they certainly have here, with sometimes, if it's not really
:53:14. > :53:15.beautifully designed, quite gloomy properties that overlook each other
:53:16. > :53:19.and it feels crowded. And for many people,
:53:20. > :53:22.obviously not the people who live here, but for many people this
:53:23. > :53:25.area would probably Certainly compared with much
:53:26. > :53:31.of the rest of London, In fact, an amazing 47%
:53:32. > :53:37.of London is green open space - parks, woodlands,
:53:38. > :53:39.back gardens, the lot. The sort of properties
:53:40. > :53:45.that people like living in and stay living
:53:46. > :53:48.in through all the phases
:53:49. > :53:53.of the family tends It's got a front door,
:53:54. > :53:57.it's got a street, it's got a little The Victorian houses,
:53:58. > :54:06.very high-density, but they are flexible, they can be adjusted,
:54:07. > :54:09.they can become offices, they can But it can be used in all
:54:10. > :54:13.sorts of different ways. But houses aren't
:54:14. > :54:14.what's getting built. Another vision altogether
:54:15. > :54:16.is being put into action They're making hundreds of flats
:54:17. > :54:21.sized just 400 square feet and Not everybody, they say,
:54:22. > :54:29.is after a house and a garden. That is not the view
:54:30. > :54:36.of people in their 20s, their 30s, 40s, who are absolutely
:54:37. > :54:40.critical to the London economy and they want
:54:41. > :54:42.a different kind of housing. They have fewer possessions,
:54:43. > :54:44.they want to get into the centre of town faster,
:54:45. > :54:47.they want to have buildings that So I think actually
:54:48. > :54:50.the garden may be for a But whatever your opinion,
:54:51. > :54:53.London is getting I'm joined by Conservative assembly
:54:54. > :55:01.member Andrew Boff, who is chair of the London Assembly Housing
:55:02. > :55:11.Committee. You are scrutinising what the mayor
:55:12. > :55:15.is doing here, is that the future? Is it inevitable? It is certainly
:55:16. > :55:19.not inevitable, and I think you will find the general consensus of all
:55:20. > :55:22.parties that sometimes we are letting developers get away with
:55:23. > :55:28.things and actually the kind of housing that Londoners actually
:55:29. > :55:32.want, as was indicated in the film if you ask them, most Londoners want
:55:33. > :55:38.to live in a terraced house with a door that opens onto the street and
:55:39. > :55:43.a garden at the back. Curiously enough, if it is three or four
:55:44. > :55:49.stories, that's a very dense form of housing, as dense as trying to build
:55:50. > :55:54.up and up. Yes, more dense than people imagine but not dense enough
:55:55. > :55:58.to answer the housing needs of the capital. Nothing will be dense
:55:59. > :56:02.enough. In London we are stuck with a political boundary that was based
:56:03. > :56:06.upon the travel to work area of the 1950s. It doesn't represent the
:56:07. > :56:13.economic area that covers a lot of the south-east. We have been arguing
:56:14. > :56:17.for a long time that the Government needs to ramp up the idea of garden
:56:18. > :56:23.cities in the south-east to solve the problems of the south-east. It
:56:24. > :56:26.is not just London's housing problems, in the south-east outside
:56:27. > :56:30.of London they equally have problems. We have to start building
:56:31. > :56:34.again and giving the opportunities for people to develop. What do you
:56:35. > :56:38.want to see in terms of the building being done in London to meet most of
:56:39. > :56:46.the population needs in both inner and outer London? Clearly the right
:56:47. > :56:50.kinds of buildings are not being built and we saw in both Harrow and
:56:51. > :56:56.Haringey where the mayor granted permission, in fact he called in two
:56:57. > :57:01.applications, one for a 21 story tower block, another for a 17 story
:57:02. > :57:05.tower block, where parties of all colours were against those
:57:06. > :57:12.applications, the mayor called them in and granted them. This is another
:57:13. > :57:16.Sadiq promise he has dropped because he said during the election campaign
:57:17. > :57:20.tall buildings would not be granted permission if they weren't in
:57:21. > :57:26.character of the area, and these are clearly not. Do we accept we have to
:57:27. > :57:31.go with that dense, small, having to think about options like this so
:57:32. > :57:36.grave is the problem? I think we have to solve the housing crisis and
:57:37. > :57:42.to do that means you have to build up so you can have more capacity. I
:57:43. > :57:46.think the style of the property is important, the size is important,
:57:47. > :57:50.but I also think fundamentally it is the cost because there's no point in
:57:51. > :57:57.building these tiny little box places for people to live in and
:57:58. > :58:01.they are paying as much as they would for a house. Wembley was
:58:02. > :58:05.mentioned in the clip, there's loads of high rise buildings going up, and
:58:06. > :58:10.the infrastructure as well, that's what concerns me, that there has to
:58:11. > :58:16.be the infrastructure to support people living there. It is not just
:58:17. > :58:22.travel, it is doctors and shops... Should we be building more high and
:58:23. > :58:28.dense in races like Wimbledon? They need to take their fair share?
:58:29. > :58:33.Everybody needs to think about it in their area but it doesn't need to be
:58:34. > :58:38.skyscrapers, as Andrew said. There's a big regeneration going on in my
:58:39. > :58:43.area around South Wimbledon, and the maximum height, there is a mixture
:58:44. > :58:47.of all sorts of things but up to seven story mansion blocks that will
:58:48. > :58:53.fit in well with the local area. Also a number of town houses. The
:58:54. > :58:57.other key thing in London is that we need to be building more and part of
:58:58. > :59:01.that is we need to get the London land commission working on bringing
:59:02. > :59:05.more of that public land back, and getting more councils using power
:59:06. > :59:09.with developers to use permission in principle so we get these things
:59:10. > :59:15.built. The other great thing that happened in the Autumn Statement was
:59:16. > :59:21.allowing housing association is to build ten year free. 30 seconds
:59:22. > :59:25.left, wrap-up, in a few years' time, where should we be? It sounds to me
:59:26. > :59:31.you might want everything but we have got to house a lot of people
:59:32. > :59:36.here. There is in the room. Some of the social problems in London are
:59:37. > :59:41.hidden, one of the biggest problems in Dawn's constituency is
:59:42. > :59:45.overcrowding in properties. There are over 300,000 young people being
:59:46. > :59:49.brought up in overcrowded households, you do not solve the
:59:50. > :59:53.issue by forcing them into tower blocks. One of the most astounding
:59:54. > :59:57.things that came out of the interrogation of the mayor's plan is
:59:58. > :00:01.that he has done no research into the health outcomes of different
:00:02. > :00:05.types of building and they are profound. And you will be making
:00:06. > :00:07.sure he does in due course. Thank you very much indeed.
:00:08. > :00:11.And now for the rest of the political news in 60 seconds.
:00:12. > :00:15.The Public Accounts Committee have said too much money is being paid
:00:16. > :00:17.for the land and buildings needed for new
:00:18. > :00:24.The chair, Meg Hillier MP, said in the constituency
:00:25. > :00:27.of Hackney South and Shoreditch civil servants have purchased
:00:28. > :00:29.a former police station for ?7.6 million, even though it had
:00:30. > :00:34.been valued at 3 million six months previously.
:00:35. > :00:37.A coroner has demanded an urgent investigation into the safety
:00:38. > :00:39.of cycle lane blue paint after linking two deaths
:00:40. > :00:47.Transport for London has been warned there is a risk that future deaths
:00:48. > :00:52.will occur if it does not take action over the low grip surfaces.
:00:53. > :00:55.A deal aimed at ending dispute between Southern Rail and the Aslef
:00:56. > :00:59.union over driver-only trains has been agreed.
:01:00. > :01:02.Govia Thameslink rail said both sides had secured a recommended deal
:01:03. > :01:19.The result of the vote will be announced on the 3rd of April.
:01:20. > :01:25.Stephen Hammond can answer this one because of the short time available.
:01:26. > :01:31.Free Schools cost an awful lot for the space, don't they? There is
:01:32. > :01:34.difficulty finding space for Free Schools and we are finding that in
:01:35. > :01:39.my constituency. That is staggering and we need to look carefully at why
:01:40. > :01:42.that scale was overpaid. There will be some value coming through at the
:01:43. > :01:45.end. We also need to look at the definition and value of public
:01:46. > :01:49.buildings and the fact they could be taken out of non-use into use much
:01:50. > :01:55.more quickly we need to look at the pricing of these buildings. Thank
:01:56. > :02:00.you both. Say goodbye. Goodbye. Back to you.
:02:01. > :02:03.So, can George Osborne stay on as a member of Parliament
:02:04. > :02:07.Will Conservative backbenchers force a Government re-think
:02:08. > :02:11.And is Theresa May about to cap gas and electricity prices?
:02:12. > :02:20.Whose idea was that first of all? They are all questions for the Week
:02:21. > :02:30.Ahead to. Let's start with the story that is
:02:31. > :02:34.too much fun to miss, on Friday it was announced the former Chancellor
:02:35. > :02:39.would be the new editor of London's Evening Standard newspaper, a
:02:40. > :02:42.position he will take up in mid-May on a salary of ?200,000 for four
:02:43. > :02:46.days a week. But Mr Osborne has said he will not
:02:47. > :02:49.be stepping down as MP for Tatton in Cheshire,
:02:50. > :02:52.a job he's held since 2001, Alongside these duties,
:02:53. > :02:55.he's also chairman of While being committed to one day
:02:56. > :03:01.a week at Black Rock, an American asset management firm -
:03:02. > :03:04.a part-time role that earns him Then he's polishing his academic
:03:05. > :03:09.credentials, as a fellow at the McCain Institute,
:03:10. > :03:11.an American thinktank, And finally as a member
:03:12. > :03:19.of the Washington Speaker's Bureau, he also earns his keep
:03:20. > :03:25.as an after-dinner speaker, banking around ?750,000
:03:26. > :03:37.since last summer. So there you go. Nice little earners
:03:38. > :03:41.if you can get them. The problem, though, is he has put second jobs on
:03:42. > :03:44.the agenda and lots of his fellow MPs are not happy because they have
:03:45. > :03:50.got second jobs but not making that kind of money. No, and a lot of MPs
:03:51. > :03:54.on both sides actually are unhappy about it exactly for those reasons.
:03:55. > :03:58.I find it a very interesting appointment. We have got these
:03:59. > :04:03.people on the centre and centre right of politics who have been used
:04:04. > :04:08.to power since 1997, they have been on the airwaves today, Tony Blair,
:04:09. > :04:12.Nick Clegg, George Osborne, and they are all seeking other platforms now
:04:13. > :04:16.because power has moved elsewhere. So Tony Blair is setting up this new
:04:17. > :04:20.foundation, Nick Clegg refused to condemn George Osborne, Tony Blair
:04:21. > :04:26.praised the appointment. They are all searching for new platforms.
:04:27. > :04:30.They might have overestimated the degree to which this will be a huge
:04:31. > :04:36.influential platform. The standard was very pro-Tory at the 2015
:04:37. > :04:40.election but London voted Labour, it was pro-Zac Goldsmith but they
:04:41. > :04:44.elected Sadiq Khan. It might be overestimating the degree to which
:04:45. > :04:49.this is a hugely influential paper. But I can see why it attracts him as
:04:50. > :04:55.a platform when all these platforms have disappeared, eg power and
:04:56. > :05:00.government. All of these people who used to be in power are quietly
:05:01. > :05:04.getting together again, Mr Blair on television this morning, George
:05:05. > :05:09.Osborne not only filling his bank account but now in charge of
:05:10. > :05:13.London's most important newspaper, Nick Clegg out today not saying
:05:14. > :05:20.Brexit was a done deal, waiting to see what happens, even John Major
:05:21. > :05:23.was wheeled out again today in the Mail on Sunday. They are all playing
:05:24. > :05:28.for position. I half expect David Cameron to turn up as features
:05:29. > :05:35.editor on The Evening Standard. Brexit and breakfast! With Mr Clegg,
:05:36. > :05:38.did he not? I do not think this is sustainable for George Osborne, I
:05:39. > :05:42.worked at The Evening Standard and I was there for three years, I know
:05:43. > :05:46.what the hours are like for a humble journalist, never mind the editor.
:05:47. > :05:50.If he thinks he can get at 4am everyday to be in the offices at 5am
:05:51. > :05:54.to oversee the splash, manage everything in the way and edited
:05:55. > :05:59.should he is in cloud cuckoo land. What this says to people is there is
:06:00. > :06:03.a kind of feel of soft corruption about public life here, where you
:06:04. > :06:06.see what you can get away with. He thinks he can brazen this out and
:06:07. > :06:09.maybe he can but what kind of message does that send to people
:06:10. > :06:15.about how seriously people take the role of being an MP? He must have
:06:16. > :06:20.known. He applied for the job. The Russian owner didn't approach him,
:06:21. > :06:26.he approached Lebedev, the proprietor, for it. He must have
:06:27. > :06:29.calculated there would be some kickback. I wonder if he realised
:06:30. > :06:33.there would be quite the kickback there has been. I think that's
:06:34. > :06:37.probably right. This hasn't finished yet, by the way, this will go on and
:06:38. > :06:43.on. How on earth does George Osborne cover the budget in the autumn? Big
:06:44. > :06:47.budget, lots of physical changes and tax rises to deal with the messages
:06:48. > :06:53.out of this week. You can see already, Theresa May budget crashes.
:06:54. > :06:58.It could be worse. She's useless! Or, worse than that, me, brilliant
:06:59. > :07:04.budget, terrible newspaper, I've never buying it again. He has
:07:05. > :07:07.hoisted his own petard. He has not bought it properly through. It's a
:07:08. > :07:14.something interesting about his own future calculations, if he wants to
:07:15. > :07:17.stay on as an MP in 2020 and be Prime Minister as he has or was
:07:18. > :07:21.wanted to be he has got to find a new seat. How do you go into an
:07:22. > :07:26.association and say I should be an MP, I can do it for at least four
:07:27. > :07:29.hours Purdy after editing The Evening Standard, making a big
:07:30. > :07:36.speech and telling Black Rock how to make a big profit. The feature pages
:07:37. > :07:41.have to be approved for the next day and feature pages are aware the
:07:42. > :07:46.editor gets to make their mark. The news is the news. The feature is
:07:47. > :07:49.what concerns you, what he is in your bonnet. That defines the
:07:50. > :07:59.newspaper, doesn't it? It is not over yet. Too much 101 on
:08:00. > :08:02.newspapers. And Haatheq at. School funding, the consultation
:08:03. > :08:10.period ends, it has been a tricky one for the government, some areas
:08:11. > :08:14.losing. I guess we are seeing this through the prism of the National
:08:15. > :08:20.Insurance contributions now, it is a small majority, if Tory MPs are
:08:21. > :08:25.unhappy she may not get her way. Talking to backbench MPs who are
:08:26. > :08:30.unhappy the feeling is it is not going to go ahead in the proposed
:08:31. > :08:34.form that the consultation has been on. No 10 will definitely have to
:08:35. > :08:38.move on this. It is unclear whether they will scrap it completely, or
:08:39. > :08:43.will they bring in something possibly like a base level, floor
:08:44. > :08:48.level pupil funding below which you can't go? You would then still need
:08:49. > :08:52.to find some extra money. So there are no easy solutions on this but
:08:53. > :08:55.what is clear it is not going to go ahead in its current form. Parents
:08:56. > :09:00.have been getting letters across the country in England about what this
:09:01. > :09:04.will mean for teachers and so on in certain schools. It's not just a
:09:05. > :09:08.matter of the education Department, the schools, or the teachers and
:09:09. > :09:13.Tory backbenchers. Parents are being mobilised on this. The point of the
:09:14. > :09:17.new funding formula is to allocate more money to the more
:09:18. > :09:21.disadvantaged. That means schools in the more prosperous suburbs are
:09:22. > :09:25.going to lose money. Budget cuts on schools which are already
:09:26. > :09:30.struggling. It comes down again to be huge problem, the ever smaller
:09:31. > :09:35.fiscal pool, ever greater demands, NHS, social care, education as well,
:09:36. > :09:39.adding to Theresa May and Phillip Hammond's enormous problems. Here is
:09:40. > :09:44.an interesting issue, Steve. There was a labour Leader of the
:09:45. > :09:48.Opposition that once suggested perhaps given these huge energy
:09:49. > :09:52.companies which seemed to be good at passing on energy rises but not so
:09:53. > :09:56.good at cutting energy prices when it falls, that perhaps we should put
:09:57. > :10:01.a cap on them until at least we study how the market goes. This was
:10:02. > :10:05.obviously ludicrous Marxism and quite rightly knocked down by the
:10:06. > :10:10.Conservatives, except that Mrs May is now talking about putting a cap
:10:11. > :10:13.on energy prices. Yes, I think if it wasn't for Brexit we would focus
:10:14. > :10:18.much more on Theresa May's Ed Miliband streak. Whether this
:10:19. > :10:23.translates into policies, let us see. That bit we don't know. That
:10:24. > :10:26.bit we don't know but in terms of argument her speech to the
:10:27. > :10:30.Conservative conference on Friday was about the third or fourth time
:10:31. > :10:35.where she said as part of the speech, let's focus on the good that
:10:36. > :10:40.government can do, including in intervening in markets, exactly in
:10:41. > :10:43.the way that he used to argue. As you say, we await the policy
:10:44. > :10:47.consequences of that. She seems more cautious in terms of policy in
:10:48. > :10:52.fermentation. But in terms of the industrial strategy, in terms of
:10:53. > :10:56.implying intervention in certain markets, there is a kind of
:10:57. > :11:00.Milibandesque streak. And there comes a time when she has to walk
:11:01. > :11:06.the walk as well as talk the talk. They talk a lot about the just about
:11:07. > :11:10.managing, just about managing face rising food bills because of the
:11:11. > :11:16.lower pound and face rising fuel bills because of the rise in oil and
:11:17. > :11:21.in other commodities. One of the two things you could do to help the just
:11:22. > :11:24.about managing is to cut their food bills and the second would be to cut
:11:25. > :11:28.their fuel bills. At some stage she has to do something for them. We
:11:29. > :11:32.don't know what is going to happen to food bills under Brexit, that
:11:33. > :11:36.could become a really serious issue. They could abolish tariffs. There
:11:37. > :11:39.has been a lot of talking the talk and big announcements put out and
:11:40. > :11:41.not following through so I agree with you on that but lots of Tory
:11:42. > :11:56.MPs will have a big problem on this and the principle of
:11:57. > :11:59.continually talking about interfering in markets, whether it's
:12:00. > :12:01.on executive pay, whether it is on energy, at a time when Britain needs
:12:02. > :12:04.to send out this message to the world in their view, in the view of
:12:05. > :12:07.Brexit supporting MPs, that we are open for business and the government
:12:08. > :12:10.is not about poking around and doing this kind of thing. Of course, you
:12:11. > :12:12.could argue there is not a problem in the market for energy, it is a
:12:13. > :12:15.malfunctioning market that doesn't operate like a free market should,
:12:16. > :12:19.so that provides even Adam Smith, the inventor of market economics
:12:20. > :12:22.would have said on that basis you should intervene. I was in Cardiff
:12:23. > :12:26.to listen to Theresa May's latest explanation for doing this. By the
:12:27. > :12:31.way, we've been waiting nine months, this was one of her big ideas. You
:12:32. > :12:35.are right, let's see a bit of the meat, please. My newspaper has been
:12:36. > :12:38.calling for some pretty hefty government action on this for quite
:12:39. > :12:44.some time. For the just about managings? Yes and specifically to
:12:45. > :12:48.sort out an energy market dominated by the big six, which is manifestly
:12:49. > :12:51.ripping people off left, right and centre. Theresa May's argument in
:12:52. > :12:58.Cardiff on Friday morning which, by the way, went down like a proverbial
:12:59. > :13:01.windbreak at the proverbial funeral because Tories... You know what I
:13:02. > :13:04.mean Andrew, the big hand coming into from the state telling
:13:05. > :13:08.businesses what to do. They went very quiet indeed. They were having
:13:09. > :13:13.saving the union and Nato but there was no clapping for that. The point
:13:14. > :13:16.being, this is what she needs to do to prove her assault, to prove those
:13:17. > :13:21.first words on the steps of Downing Street. We await to see the actions
:13:22. > :13:28.taken. On that unusual agreement we will
:13:29. > :13:30.leave it there. The Daily Politics will be back on BBC Two tomorrow at
:13:31. > :13:32.noon and everyday during the week. And I'll be here on BBC One
:13:33. > :13:35.next Sunday at 11am. Remember, if it's Sunday,
:13:36. > :13:37.it's the Sunday Politics.