:00:37. > :00:40.Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:43.New CCTV images are released showing suicide bomber, Salman Abedi,
:00:44. > :00:47.on the night he attacked Manchester Arena, killing 22 people.
:00:48. > :00:49.Are the politicians and the security services doing
:00:50. > :00:55.Theresa May says Britain needs to be "stronger and more resolute"
:00:56. > :00:58.in confronting extremist views, as she outlines plans
:00:59. > :01:02.for a new Commission to counter extremism.
:01:03. > :01:06.We'll be talking to the Security Minister.
:01:07. > :01:08.Jeremy Corbyn says a Labour government would recruit 1,000
:01:09. > :01:15.more staff at security and intelligence agencies.
:01:16. > :01:26.We will be talking to one of his key supporters. In London, we look at
:01:27. > :01:33.what the Conservatives are offering the capital, having voted Remain.
:01:34. > :01:35.To help guide me through this morning, I'm joined by
:01:36. > :01:37.Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Tim Marshall.
:01:38. > :01:41.They'll be sharing their thoughts on Twitter and you can join
:01:42. > :01:49.So, with a week and a half to go, the election campaign
:01:50. > :01:52.And some recent polls suggest the race is just
:01:53. > :01:59.We'll be taking a closer look at that in just a moment but, first,
:02:00. > :02:02.here are some of the key events over the next 10 days or so:
:02:03. > :02:07.Tonight at 6pm will see the third of the party leader interviews.
:02:08. > :02:09.This time it's the SNP's Nicola Sturgeon facing questions
:02:10. > :02:15.While many across the UK will be enjoying tomorrow's bank holiday,
:02:16. > :02:17.there will be no break in campaigning for
:02:18. > :02:23.And in the evening it will be the turn of Ukip's Paul Nuttall
:02:24. > :02:27.On Tuesday the SNP publish their manifesto -
:02:28. > :02:30.the last of the major parties to do so - after last week's
:02:31. > :02:33.Then on Wednesday, the BBC's Election Debate will see
:02:34. > :02:37.representatives from the seven main parties debate in front
:02:38. > :02:46.On Thursday, Lib Dem leader Tim Farron will have his interview...
:02:47. > :02:48.Before Friday's Question Time special with Theresa May
:02:49. > :02:51.They won't debate each other, but will take questions
:02:52. > :02:53.consecutively from members of the audience.
:02:54. > :02:56.The final week of campaigning is a short one, with politicians
:02:57. > :03:04.cramming in three days of door-knocking before voters go
:03:05. > :03:10.We'll have an exit poll once voting has ended at 10pm,
:03:11. > :03:13.with the result expected early in the morning of June 9th.
:03:14. > :03:16.Well, it's Sunday, and that always means a spate of new opinion
:03:17. > :03:19.And they make for fascinating, if a tad confusing, reading.
:03:20. > :03:21.There are five new opinion polls today, which have
:03:22. > :03:23.the Conservative lead over Labour anywhere from six
:03:24. > :03:27.points to 14 points. So, what's going on?
:03:28. > :03:29.Professor John Curtice is the expert we always turn
:03:30. > :03:37.to at times like this, and he joins me from Glasgow.
:03:38. > :03:45.Take us through these polls. They seem to be all over the place? They
:03:46. > :03:50.may seem to be but there is a very consistent key message. Four of
:03:51. > :03:53.these five polls, if you compare them with what they were saying
:03:54. > :03:58.before the Conservative manifesto launch on the 18th, four say the
:03:59. > :04:04.Conservatives are down by two points. Four of them say the Labour
:04:05. > :04:11.vote is up by two points. A clear consistent message. The Conservative
:04:12. > :04:15.lead has narrowed. Why does this matter? It matters because we are
:04:16. > :04:19.now in a position where the leads are such that the Conservatives can
:04:20. > :04:24.no longer be sure of getting the landslide majority they want. Some
:04:25. > :04:28.posters suggesting they may be in trouble and it is going to get
:04:29. > :04:38.rather close. Others suggested is further apart. There are two major
:04:39. > :04:42.sources of... The Poles agree that young voters will vote Labour if
:04:43. > :04:48.they vote. Older voters will vote for the Conservatives. How many of
:04:49. > :04:53.those younger voters will turn out to vote? The second thing is whether
:04:54. > :04:56.the evidence in the opinion polls that the Conservatives are advancing
:04:57. > :05:00.more in the North of England and the Midlands is realised that the ballot
:05:01. > :05:04.box? If it is not realised, the Tories chances of getting a
:05:05. > :05:10.landslide look remote. If it is, they could still well indeed get a
:05:11. > :05:14.majority more than 80%. The Conservatives have lost some ground
:05:15. > :05:21.depending on which opinion poll you look at. What about the Labour
:05:22. > :05:25.Party? It is gaining ground. It has been gaining ground ever since week
:05:26. > :05:31.one. They started on 26, they now average 35. There were a lot of
:05:32. > :05:34.people out there at the beginning of the campaign who were saying, I
:05:35. > :05:39.usually vote Labour but the truth is I'm not sure about Jeremy Corbyn.
:05:40. > :05:44.They seem to have decided the Labour manifesto wasn't so bad. They have
:05:45. > :05:50.looked at Theresa May and have said, we will stick with Labour. Labour
:05:51. > :05:52.have managed to draw back into the fold some of their traditional
:05:53. > :05:57.voters who were disenchanted, together with, crucially, some of
:05:58. > :06:02.those younger voters who have never voted before, who have always been a
:06:03. > :06:05.particular target for Jeremy Corbyn. What is your reaction to previous
:06:06. > :06:09.opinion polls and elections weather has been a feeling that some of the
:06:10. > :06:15.Labour support has been overstated? This be a worry this time? That is
:06:16. > :06:18.one of the uncertainties that faces the opinion polls and the rest of
:06:19. > :06:23.us. We had a conference on Friday at which it was carefully explained
:06:24. > :06:28.that pollsters have been trying to correct the errors that resulted in
:06:29. > :06:33.an overestimation of Labour support a couple of years ago, particularly
:06:34. > :06:36.among younger voters. You shouldn't assume the opinion polls will be
:06:37. > :06:40.wrong this time because they were wrong the last time. We want in
:06:41. > :06:49.truth know whether or not the polls have got it right. Even if they are
:06:50. > :06:53.wrong in terms of the level, they are not wrong in terms of the trend.
:06:54. > :07:00.The trends have been dramatic so far. A big rise in Tory support
:07:01. > :07:04.early on at the expense of Ukip. And subsequently, a remarkable rise in
:07:05. > :07:08.Labour support, albeit from a low initial baseline. This election has
:07:09. > :07:12.already seen quite a lot of movement. We shouldn't rule out the
:07:13. > :07:20.possibility there will be yet more in the ten days to come.
:07:21. > :07:24.That is his analysis. Let's talk to the panel. Julia, how concerned
:07:25. > :07:30.should Conservative headquarters be at this particular point at what
:07:31. > :07:33.looks like an apparent surge by Labour? Depends if you want a
:07:34. > :07:39.massive landslide majority or might not. I assume the Tory party do.
:07:40. > :07:45.Whether anybody thinks that is a good idea is a different matter.
:07:46. > :07:51.Undoubtedly the manifesto league was a total disaster. Social care policy
:07:52. > :07:55.and the U-turn. Lots of stuff in the Labour manifesto was very appealing.
:07:56. > :07:59.The tactic from Sir Lynton Crosby was clear. It is all about Theresa
:08:00. > :08:04.May. Don't even mention the candidate or the party. The Labour
:08:05. > :08:09.Party, the candidates are on the moderate side are saying, don't
:08:10. > :08:13.mention Jeremy Corbyn. This has been a battle between two big people. The
:08:14. > :08:17.more we have seen of Theresa May, she has gone down. The more we have
:08:18. > :08:23.seen of Jeremy Corbyn, he has gone up. If you make it about strong and
:08:24. > :08:25.stable leadership and then you do something like a massive
:08:26. > :08:30.unprecedented U-turn on a key policy like social care, the knock is even
:08:31. > :08:33.greater. Do you think that is the reason for the change in the opinion
:08:34. > :08:38.polls or is Labour gaining some momentum? I think it is part of the
:08:39. > :08:41.reason. You can understand why the focus was on her at the beginning
:08:42. > :08:45.because her personal ratings were stratospheric. What is interesting
:08:46. > :08:51.is all successful leaders basically cast a spell over voters in the
:08:52. > :08:56.media. None of them are titans. All of them are flawed. It is a question
:08:57. > :09:00.of when the spell is broken. This is a first for a leader's spell to be
:09:01. > :09:04.broken during an election campaign. That was a moment of high
:09:05. > :09:09.significance. The fact the Labour Party campaign is more robust than
:09:10. > :09:14.many thought it would be is the other factor. I think it is the
:09:15. > :09:17.combination of the two, that the trend, as Professor John Curtis
:09:18. > :09:22.said, the trend has been this narrow. There has not been much
:09:23. > :09:27.campaigning. Local campaigning resumed on Thursday, national
:09:28. > :09:31.campaigning on Friday. Do you think, Tim Marshall, that the opinion polls
:09:32. > :09:33.are reflecting what happened in Manchester and people's thoughts
:09:34. > :09:38.about which party will keep them safe? No, I think that will come
:09:39. > :09:42.next week. I think it is too soon for that. It was quite
:09:43. > :09:48.understandable from the V -- the very beginning for Lynton Crosby to
:09:49. > :09:55.frame the campaign in terms of Theresa May and Brexit. The
:09:56. > :10:00.electorate can have its own view. You always have to go back to
:10:01. > :10:06.Clinton's it's the economy stupid for most of the electorate. It is
:10:07. > :10:12.framed in your electricity bill. It is framed in your jobs. Both
:10:13. > :10:17.manifestos have got more holes in them than Swiss cheese. It comes
:10:18. > :10:20.down to which manifesto you believe. The Labour manifesto makes more
:10:21. > :10:25.promises about things you care about like your electricity bill.
:10:26. > :10:29.Interesting, but in the end despite while we thought would be a Brexit
:10:30. > :10:34.election, it has been a lot about public services. It always comes
:10:35. > :10:39.down to bread-and-butter issues. I don't think we have quite seen how
:10:40. > :10:42.the terrorist you has played out. We had the Westminster attack only a
:10:43. > :10:47.couple of months ago. That was already factored in in terms of who
:10:48. > :10:52.you trust and who you don't trust. The IRA stuff from Jeremy Corbyn is
:10:53. > :10:55.already factored in. People actually care about how ordinary government
:10:56. > :10:57.policies affect their lives. Thank you very much.
:10:58. > :10:59.The election campaign was, of course, put on hold
:11:00. > :11:01.following the terrorist attack in Manchester
:11:02. > :11:04.But now that campaigning has resumed, it's hardly
:11:05. > :11:06.surprising that security is now a primary concern.
:11:07. > :11:09.The Labour Party has announced it would recruit 1,000 more
:11:10. > :11:23.Jeremy Corbyn, speaking on ITV at short while ago, says previous cuts
:11:24. > :11:28.have undermined security. It seems that the cuts in police
:11:29. > :11:31.numbers have led to some very dangerous situation is emerging. It
:11:32. > :11:37.is also a question of a community response as well. So that where, an
:11:38. > :11:41.imam, for example, lets the police he is concerned about a muddy, I
:11:42. > :11:45.would hope they would act. And I would hope we have -- and I would
:11:46. > :11:46.hope they would have the resources to act as well.
:11:47. > :11:48.Joining me now from Leeds is the Shadow Justice
:11:49. > :11:57.Good morning. You have announced a thousand more Security and
:11:58. > :12:01.Intelligence agency staff. That is in line with what the government has
:12:02. > :12:05.already announced and the Shadow Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, has
:12:06. > :12:10.said you would not be spending any more money. It doesn't amount to
:12:11. > :12:14.much, does it? That is just one of the parts of our pledge card on the
:12:15. > :12:20.safer communities. There is also 10,000 extra police, because the
:12:21. > :12:24.Conservatives cut the police by 20,000. That 10,000 extra police
:12:25. > :12:29.would mean in -- and extra police officer in each neighbourhood. There
:12:30. > :12:37.are 3000 extra put -- prison officers. Prison staff has been cut
:12:38. > :12:40.by 6000. That is a third. It is not helping keep communities safer. We
:12:41. > :12:46.are pledging 3000 extra firefighters. Also, a thousand extra
:12:47. > :12:55.security staff and 500 extra border guards. There have been 13 areas
:12:56. > :13:00.identified where our borders are not as secure as they should be. That is
:13:01. > :13:03.the list of numbers you have given. If we concentrate on the security
:13:04. > :13:07.services, because it was Jeremy Corbyn he said there will be more
:13:08. > :13:13.police on the streets under Labour. If the security sources need more
:13:14. > :13:18.resources they should get them. Why aren't you giving them more? We are
:13:19. > :13:22.committing to a thousand more police. The Godinet is doing that as
:13:23. > :13:28.well. You are not committing anything more. The government has
:13:29. > :13:34.not delivered on that promise. We will deliver on that promise is --
:13:35. > :13:39.promise. What Jeremy has made very clear is that you can't do security
:13:40. > :13:45.on the cheap. Austerity has to stop at the police station door, and at
:13:46. > :13:47.the hospital door. But we will be giving the resources required to
:13:48. > :13:54.keep our communities safer. So you will give them the resources and
:13:55. > :13:58.more powers? Well, the police need to be empowered. But when you listen
:13:59. > :14:02.to what the Police Federation are saying, they have been speaking out
:14:03. > :14:08.for a long time about the danger caused by police cuts. And I'm
:14:09. > :14:13.talking not only about terrorism, not only about acts of extreme
:14:14. > :14:18.violence, but anything from anti-social behaviour to burglary.
:14:19. > :14:24.Use it more powers. What sort of powers are you thinking of giving
:14:25. > :14:29.the security services? We need to listen to them. That is not a power.
:14:30. > :14:34.We need to listen to the intelligence community and the
:14:35. > :14:37.security service, to the army and the police, about what they think
:14:38. > :14:42.and how they think our communities could be made safe. One thing is
:14:43. > :14:47.clear. Cutting the number of police by 20,000 makes our community is
:14:48. > :14:51.less safe, not more safe. You said you will listen to the security
:14:52. > :14:57.services. Can voters be reassured and guaranteed that Jeremy Corbyn
:14:58. > :15:02.will listen to the security services and the police in terms of more
:15:03. > :15:05.powers if that is what they want? Until now he has spent his whole
:15:06. > :15:10.political career voting against measures designed to tackle
:15:11. > :15:15.home-grown and international terrorism. Jeremy Corbyn's speech on
:15:16. > :15:20.safer communities earlier this week made clear he is listening to the
:15:21. > :15:24.security services. So he would grant those new powers. He voted against
:15:25. > :15:32.the terrorism Act in 2000, into thousands and six. In 2011. And in
:15:33. > :15:38.2014, the data retention and investigatory Powers act. Which new
:15:39. > :15:42.powers will he be happy to enact? Just to say, Jeremy Corbyn along
:15:43. > :15:47.with Theresa May, David Davis and many Conservative MPs, voted against
:15:48. > :15:51.legislation where they thought it would be ill-advised, ineffective or
:15:52. > :15:55.actually counter-productive. It is a very complex situation. What we
:15:56. > :16:00.don't want to do is introduce hastily prepared laws with one eye
:16:01. > :16:04.to the newspaper headlines, which can act as recruiting sergeants for
:16:05. > :16:07.terrorism. And actually, when I said earlier that Jeremy Corbyn made
:16:08. > :16:11.clear in his speech this week that he has been listening to the
:16:12. > :16:14.security services, what he said about the international situation
:16:15. > :16:20.has also been said by the former head of MI5, Stella Rimington, and
:16:21. > :16:21.her predecessor. As well as president of back -- President
:16:22. > :16:30.Barack Obama. You say he will give the police and
:16:31. > :16:34.security services the resources and powers they need. If we look back at
:16:35. > :16:39.some of the legislation Jeremy Corbyn and others voted against in
:16:40. > :16:49.2000, it gave the Secretary of State the -- new powers... Does Jeremy
:16:50. > :16:53.Corbyn still think that is a bad idea? Jeremy Corbyn along with
:16:54. > :16:59.Theresa May, David Davis and others... I know you want to bracket
:17:00. > :17:03.it with Conservatives but I'm interested in what Jeremy Corbyn
:17:04. > :17:06.will do when he says we are going to be smarter about fighting terrorism.
:17:07. > :17:12.If he's not prepared to vote in favour of those sorts of measures,
:17:13. > :17:18.or trying to impose restrictions on suspects, I'm trying to find out
:17:19. > :17:22.what he will do. It is a complex situation. With this legislation the
:17:23. > :17:26.devil is often in the detail. If it was a simple and stopping terrorism
:17:27. > :17:31.by voting a piece of legislation through Parliament, it would have
:17:32. > :17:38.been stopped a long time ago. Sadly there are no easy answers, and that
:17:39. > :17:41.is recognised by Barack Obama, Stella Rimington, the head of the
:17:42. > :17:46.MI5, by David Davis and other Conservative MPs. What is clear, as
:17:47. > :17:50.Jeremy made clear in his speech this week, is the way things are being
:17:51. > :17:54.done currently is not working. We have got to be tough on terrorism
:17:55. > :17:58.and the unforgivable acts of murder, but also tough on the causes of
:17:59. > :18:03.terrorism as well. The sad truth is there are no easy answers. If there
:18:04. > :18:15.were, the problem would have been solved a long time ago. If you more
:18:16. > :18:18.security and terrorism officers but your leader is still uncomfortable
:18:19. > :18:20.with giving them the powers they need to do their jobs because it is
:18:21. > :18:23.complicated legislation, they will want to know how you are going to do
:18:24. > :18:38.it. At another stop the War rally in 2014, Jeremy Corbyn said the murder
:18:39. > :18:41.of a charity worker was jingoism. At the beginning of that speech he
:18:42. > :18:47.mentioned the importance of the one-minute silence for the memory of
:18:48. > :18:52.Alan Henning who was murdered. What he has also made clear is
:18:53. > :18:56.responsibility for acts of terrorism and murder lies with the murder, and
:18:57. > :19:03.something that's really disappointed me is that the Prime Minister said
:19:04. > :19:16.the other day that in Jeremy Corbyn's speech on this on Monday,
:19:17. > :19:21.he said... Whether she agrees with him on his politics, she knows he
:19:22. > :19:24.didn't say that in his speech, but what troubles me is you have got a
:19:25. > :19:28.Prime Minister who must have sat down with her advisers earlier that
:19:29. > :19:32.day and said, well I do know he didn't say that but if we say he did
:19:33. > :19:37.we might win some votes. I think that is shameful and it shows
:19:38. > :19:40.Theresa May cannot be trusted. These issues should transcend party
:19:41. > :19:44.politics. We need to pull together on this issue. Thank you very much.
:19:45. > :19:47.Well, the Conservatives have promised a new statutory commission
:19:48. > :19:50.The party says it will identify extremism, including
:19:51. > :19:52.the "non-violent" kind, and help communities stand up to it.
:19:53. > :19:54.Also this morning, the Security Minister, Ben Wallace,
:19:55. > :19:56.has attacked internet giants for failing to tackle terror
:19:57. > :19:58.online, and accused them of being ruthless money-makers.
:19:59. > :20:11.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Those comments you have made about
:20:12. > :20:16.social media companies failing in their responsibility to take down
:20:17. > :20:21.extremist material, what will you do to compel them? I think we will look
:20:22. > :20:25.at the range of options. The Germans have proposed a fine, we are not
:20:26. > :20:30.sure whether that will work, but there are range of pressures we can
:20:31. > :20:35.put onto some of these companies. Some have complied. In the article
:20:36. > :20:40.in the Sunday Telegraph today I did say it is not all of them. They are
:20:41. > :20:45.not immune to pressure. We can do internationally, and the Prime
:20:46. > :20:48.Minister urged at the G7 and international response. I think
:20:49. > :20:54.there are a range of issues. We could change the law. You mentioned
:20:55. > :20:59.the G7, and rhetoric and warm words are fine to an extent but it is
:21:00. > :21:02.action people want. If you have made these impassioned remarks in the
:21:03. > :21:09.newspapers about them failing to do the job, people want to know what
:21:10. > :21:13.powers do you have now to say to social media companies take down
:21:14. > :21:17.this material? We have an act that was recently passed. In this area we
:21:18. > :21:23.have just finished consulting on one of the areas we could use but we
:21:24. > :21:29.cannot pre-empt the consultation. We have right now officials from my
:21:30. > :21:34.department over in the United States with American officials working with
:21:35. > :21:40.CSPs because what we see is that they do respond to pressure. The
:21:41. > :21:44.best example is we think they have the technology and the capability to
:21:45. > :21:50.change the algorithms they use that maximise profit over safety. But you
:21:51. > :21:54.are relying on these companies devoting more resources to this line
:21:55. > :22:00.of work that you would like to see them do. Have you got any evidence
:22:01. > :22:03.they will do that? They said, only a few weeks ago before the election
:22:04. > :22:07.was called the Home Secretary hosted a Round Table with them. We have
:22:08. > :22:13.evidence they are trying to improve it. A few are refusing to or being
:22:14. > :22:16.difficult, and that's why the Prime Minister was right to step up not
:22:17. > :22:21.only the language she was using but to say we are not going to allow
:22:22. > :22:24.this to progress any more. People will be worried about who will make
:22:25. > :22:30.the judgment about what is unacceptable and what should be
:22:31. > :22:35.taken down. Let me show you this, which was shared widely across
:22:36. > :22:40.social media. If you read that quote you could argue it is at the same
:22:41. > :22:44.end if you like. The man in the picture is a terrorist hate
:22:45. > :22:50.preacher, the jihadist who was killed in Yemen by the Americans. Is
:22:51. > :22:54.this the sort of thing you would be demanding social media companies
:22:55. > :23:00.take down? You have to look at the context it was deployed in. I could
:23:01. > :23:04.show you some of the 270,000 pieces we have had removed since 2010 from
:23:05. > :23:09.internet sites that have been extreme. The big issue is not often
:23:10. > :23:13.the individual image, it is the way these companies set up the
:23:14. > :23:19.algorithms to link you. If you were watching that on Facebook delivered
:23:20. > :23:25.to you, perhaps you would like to look at this, because that's how
:23:26. > :23:34.they set it up. If you go onto YouTube, you can get let down the
:23:35. > :23:37.path from looking at Manchester... I understand your example, but from a
:23:38. > :23:45.practical level are you expecting media companies to take down that
:23:46. > :23:49.sort of posts if it appeared? Yes... You are? Who will make the decisions
:23:50. > :23:55.about what will radicalise young people that could lead someone down
:23:56. > :24:00.the path to let off a bomb? If I invite your viewers to look at the
:24:01. > :24:04.work the Guardian have done on Facebook guidance, to say for
:24:05. > :24:08.example it is OK to produce videos or broadcast videos of
:24:09. > :24:13.seven-year-olds being bullied as long as it wasn't accompanied by
:24:14. > :24:17.captions, I don't think you need to be an expert to say that is not
:24:18. > :24:22.acceptable. Something more worrying for you as a journalist and me as a
:24:23. > :24:27.politician, another set of guidance that says... I think this is quite
:24:28. > :24:33.menacing... That certain people don't deserve our protection. That
:24:34. > :24:36.includes journalists and politicians and people who are controversial. So
:24:37. > :24:42.I think there is more work to be done but at the end of the day it is
:24:43. > :24:46.the pathway this stuff leads to. It is more about examining how much
:24:47. > :24:49.progress you can make. The Government says there are up to
:24:50. > :24:56.23,000 potential terrorist attackers in this country, 3000 of those
:24:57. > :25:07.posing a serious threat being monitored. That is pretty
:25:08. > :25:11.disturbing, these are big numbers. Yes, and the tragedy of Manchester
:25:12. > :25:14.shows this is not about failure, it is about the scale of the challenge
:25:15. > :25:22.we face and that is why it is important that alongside people is
:25:23. > :25:25.powers. Should you double the size of MI5 for example? We have
:25:26. > :25:31.increased year-on-year in real terms not only the money but the numbers
:25:32. > :25:37.of people in MI5. It is now 2000 we have committed to increased to...
:25:38. > :25:42.Before the attack. Before our manifesto we had recruited, we have
:25:43. > :25:49.increased the whole of government spending on counterterrorism from
:25:50. > :25:58.?11.7 billion in 2015 up to 15.7 billion. Would you expand the number
:25:59. > :26:03.of people in MI5? I have asked them on a regular basis if they have the
:26:04. > :26:08.resource if they are happy with it, and the answer comes back time and
:26:09. > :26:12.time again, yes we are. You have quite extensive powers at your
:26:13. > :26:18.disposal, the question is if you are using them. Measures were introduced
:26:19. > :26:23.in 2012 to replace control orders, but they have rarely been used. Only
:26:24. > :26:33.seven are currently in operation. Why? Because there are a whole... It
:26:34. > :26:36.is just one tool in the tool box. Other powers we use, we take away
:26:37. > :26:45.people's passports if we think they are about to travel. How many? I
:26:46. > :26:49.cannot comment, it is a sensitive issue. Plenty of people are finding
:26:50. > :26:52.their passport has been removed and at the same time we strip people of
:26:53. > :27:01.citizenship to make sure they don't come back. On top of that, because
:27:02. > :27:04.of the investment made in GCHQ, MI5 and counterterrorism, we have more
:27:05. > :27:13.powers and more ability to monitor them. But are you using them enough?
:27:14. > :27:18.Only seven TPIMs are in operation. You won't give me any of the other
:27:19. > :27:22.measures at your disposal, but if they are only in single figures,
:27:23. > :27:28.that doesn't seem to compare with the numbers who are being monitored.
:27:29. > :27:33.Also, we have to strike a balance between... We have to satisfy the
:27:34. > :27:39.court so we have to make sure there is enough evidence to restrict
:27:40. > :27:44.people's freedoms. TPIMs do all sorts of good things to keep people
:27:45. > :27:52.safe. It sends people away from where they live, it tags them... I
:27:53. > :27:55.tell you why they are better. The control orders were on track to be
:27:56. > :28:00.struck down by the courts because one of the things we have to satisfy
:28:01. > :28:03.is the courts but we also have to satisfy, we have to make sure we get
:28:04. > :28:08.the balance between the community is right and the measures we take. If
:28:09. > :28:13.we alienate our communities, we won't get the intelligence that
:28:14. > :28:16.allows us to catch it. There is no point in having more police and
:28:17. > :28:23.intelligence services if you don't give them the powers to do the job.
:28:24. > :28:33.Jeremy Corbyn were licensed James Bond to do precisely nothing. And --
:28:34. > :28:35.thank you. The revelation that the Manchester
:28:36. > :28:43.suicide bomber, 22-year-old Salman Abedi, was born in this
:28:44. > :28:46.country has raised fresh concerns about the effectiveness of the UK's
:28:47. > :28:48.counter-extremism policy. In a moment we'll be talking to two
:28:49. > :28:51.people who've spent their careers investigating
:28:52. > :28:52.radicalisation in the UK. Douglas Murray,
:28:53. > :28:54.of the Henry Jackson Society, and Sara Khan, author of The Battle
:28:55. > :28:57.for British Islam and CEO of the counter-extremism
:28:58. > :28:58.organisation Inspire. We asked both for a personal take
:28:59. > :29:01.on how to confront the problem of Islamist extremism.
:29:02. > :29:04.First up, here's Douglas Murray. Even after all these dead,
:29:05. > :29:09.all this mourning and defiance, We remain stuck in the John Lennon
:29:10. > :29:27.response to terrorism - Our politicians still refuse
:29:28. > :29:31.to accurately identify the sources of the problem,
:29:32. > :29:33.and polite society This country gave asylum to
:29:34. > :29:39.the Libyan parents of Salman Abedi. Their son repaid that generosity
:29:40. > :29:44.by killing 22 British people, one for each year of life this
:29:45. > :29:50.country had given him. We need to think far more
:29:51. > :29:54.deeply about all this. Eastern Europe doesn't
:29:55. > :29:58.have an Islamic terrorism problem France has the worst problem
:29:59. > :30:05.because it has the most Islam. Are we ever going to draw
:30:06. > :30:09.any lessons from this? For the time being, the game
:30:10. > :30:17.is to be as inoffensive as possible. The rot isn't just within
:30:18. > :30:21.the Muslim communities. Consider all those retired British
:30:22. > :30:24.officials and others who shill, and are in the pay of the Saudis
:30:25. > :30:29.and other foreign states, even while they pump the extreme
:30:30. > :30:34.versions of Islam into our country. It is high time we
:30:35. > :30:44.became serious too. Islamist extremism is
:30:45. > :30:52.flourishing in our country. We're failing to defeat it,
:30:53. > :30:59.so what can we do about it? Whenever I say we must counter those
:31:00. > :31:02.Muslim organisations who are promoting hatred,
:31:03. > :31:07.discrimination, and sometimes even violence, I'm often either ignored
:31:08. > :31:12.by some politicians out of a misplaced fear of cultural
:31:13. > :31:14.sensitivity, or I find myself experiencing abuse by some
:31:15. > :31:18.of my fellow Muslims. These groups and their sympathisers
:31:19. > :31:26.tour Muslim communities, hold events, and have hundreds
:31:27. > :31:29.of thousands of followers Yet there is little counter
:31:30. > :31:34.challenge to their toxic anti-Western narrative,
:31:35. > :31:39.which includes opposition I've seen politicians
:31:40. > :31:44.and charities partner with and support some of these
:31:45. > :31:49.voices and groups. Many anti-racist groups
:31:50. > :31:55.will challenge those on the far right but not Muslim hate preachers,
:31:56. > :31:58.in the erroneous belief that to do But it's Islamophobic not
:31:59. > :32:06.to challenge them because it implies Following the attack on Monday,
:32:07. > :32:15.it cannot be business as usual. We must counter those
:32:16. > :32:29.who seek to divide us. Sarah Karen Allen Douglas Murray
:32:30. > :32:33.join me know. You wrote a book, strange death of Europe. What did
:32:34. > :32:39.you mean in your film when you said, let's get serious? Several things.
:32:40. > :32:43.Let me give you one example. The young man who carried out this
:32:44. > :32:47.atrocious attack was a student at Salford University for two years. He
:32:48. > :32:53.was on a campus which is, from its leadership to its student
:32:54. > :32:58.leadership, opposes all aspects of the government's only counter
:32:59. > :33:04.extremism programme. They boast they are boycotting it. They always did
:33:05. > :33:09.this. The university he was at was against the only counter extremism
:33:10. > :33:15.policy this state has. This is just one example of a much bigger
:33:16. > :33:20.problem. What are you suggesting? Shut down the University? Force them
:33:21. > :33:28.to change their policies? I think in the case of Salford, which
:33:29. > :33:35.discourages students from reporting Islamic extremism... When you
:33:36. > :33:39.discover you have produced a suicide bomber in Manchester, you should be
:33:40. > :33:45.held responsible. What do you say to that? I think it is quite clear from
:33:46. > :33:48.I am experienced there have been politicians who have undermined
:33:49. > :33:52.Prevent, community organisations, Islamist groups who have been at the
:33:53. > :34:01.forefront of undermining and countering Prevent, but also wider
:34:02. > :34:03.counter extremism measures. Islamist -- Islamist extremes and has
:34:04. > :34:08.flourished in this country. If Summer Rae had given us a crystal
:34:09. > :34:13.ball ten years ago and said, look forward and you will see hundreds of
:34:14. > :34:16.people leave this country to join Isis, we will have hundreds of
:34:17. > :34:19.people convicted of Islamist offences, I think we would have been
:34:20. > :34:24.quite shocked that things have got worse as opposed to getting better.
:34:25. > :34:27.Douglas Murray, the essence of your argument when you made the
:34:28. > :34:31.comparison between the numbers of Muslims in other countries is that
:34:32. > :34:35.we have too much Islam in Britain? The aunt Tilly Muslim Brotherhood
:34:36. > :34:41.give is that the answer to absolutely everything is Islam. Less
:34:42. > :34:45.Islam is a good thing. Let me finish. The Islamic world is in the
:34:46. > :34:50.middle of a very serious problem. It has been going on since the
:34:51. > :34:52.beginning. I think it is not worth continuing to risk our own security
:34:53. > :34:58.simply in order to be politically correct. I would disagree with
:34:59. > :35:03.Douglas on that. Nobody is going to deny that since the end of the 20th
:35:04. > :35:08.century there has been a rise in Islamist extreme terror
:35:09. > :35:11.organisations. Yes, there is a crisis within contemporary Islam,
:35:12. > :35:15.but there is a class. There are competing claims about what the
:35:16. > :35:18.faith stands for. While we are seeing Islamist terror
:35:19. > :35:25.organisations, leading theologians are saying that the concept of a
:35:26. > :35:31.caliphate is outdated. Muslims should be adopting a human rights
:35:32. > :35:36.culture. I entirely agree with that. There are obviously people trying to
:35:37. > :35:39.counter that. I would urge us to take the long view. In the history
:35:40. > :35:44.of Islam there have been many reformers. Most of the time they
:35:45. > :35:47.have ended a up being the ones on the brunt of the violence. I deeply
:35:48. > :35:53.resent what you and others do in this country. I want you to win. But
:35:54. > :35:57.they are a Billy good minority. A poll last year found that two thirds
:35:58. > :36:01.of British Muslims found they would not report a family member they
:36:02. > :36:11.found to be involved in extremism to the police. You are proposing more
:36:12. > :36:16.Draconian measures. I wish they could win. We should do everything
:36:17. > :36:20.we can to support people like that. What we should recognise the scale
:36:21. > :36:24.of the problem is beyond our current understanding. You counter
:36:25. > :36:28.radicalisation on a university campus or online? Discussion we had
:36:29. > :36:35.with Ben Wallace about the material that is out there. If we pursue in a
:36:36. > :36:40.hard-line way perhaps the sort of thing Douglas Murray is suggesting,
:36:41. > :36:46.gone is freedom of speech, gone is freedom of debate and discussion?
:36:47. > :36:51.The best way to counter extremism is through the prism of human rights.
:36:52. > :36:56.We cannot abandon our human rights to fight extremism. Where I think we
:36:57. > :37:03.are going wrong, where there is a gap, is the lack of counter work to
:37:04. > :37:09.challenge Islamist ideals. How many people are going to say we need to
:37:10. > :37:13.counter that strict narrative? That is where we are not doing enough
:37:14. > :37:19.work. What about the human rights point, that you cannot take away
:37:20. > :37:25.people's human rights? I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting we
:37:26. > :37:31.do things that ensure that 22 people don't get blown up on an average
:37:32. > :37:37.Monday again, OK? Dissent to be opposed to people want to blow up
:37:38. > :37:41.our daughters is not opposing human rights. If you're taking government
:37:42. > :37:45.money and you are an institution like Salford University you should
:37:46. > :37:49.be held responsible for not cooperating with standard security
:37:50. > :37:55.measures. You can challenge extremism without abandoning human
:37:56. > :37:58.rights. We have got to actually counter the Islamist narrative.
:37:59. > :38:03.We're not doing enough. This is not about closing down free speech. This
:38:04. > :38:07.is encouraging it. This is the most effective way of countering the
:38:08. > :38:15.Islamist narrative. Why isn't it doing better? A number of reasons.
:38:16. > :38:20.One is there is a denial taking place. A lot of apologetics. Part of
:38:21. > :38:24.it is the way we talk about Muslims in this country. We use the term
:38:25. > :38:29.Muslim community as if they are homogenous. There is a positive
:38:30. > :38:33.trend but there is a negative trend among British Muslims. We need to
:38:34. > :38:38.counter those promoting the idea that Muslims are part of a
:38:39. > :38:41.collective identity. I agree. It is also the case there is massive push
:38:42. > :38:45.back because a lot of Muslims are defending the faith in this country.
:38:46. > :38:49.We think we can push them down a better path but they are defending
:38:50. > :38:51.absolutely everything. We need to get real about that. Thank you very
:38:52. > :38:52.much. It's just gone 11.35,
:38:53. > :38:54.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:38:55. > :38:57.in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20
:38:58. > :39:00.minutes, the Week Ahead. First though, the Sunday
:39:01. > :39:11.Politics where you are. Jo, thanks very much.
:39:12. > :39:16.Hello and welcome to us. We've got the Conservatives'
:39:17. > :39:18.offer to London very much And with me here is a former
:39:19. > :39:22.leader of the party, Iain Duncan Smith.
:39:23. > :39:23.Welcome. We'll be going thorugh a number
:39:24. > :39:27.of policy areas in a moment. But on the story, the issue
:39:28. > :39:41.that its hard to get away from. Let's look at policing. Can London
:39:42. > :39:47.possibly be safer now than it was in 2010 after ?600 million worth of
:39:48. > :39:51.cuts? I think London is safer but nothing is absolute. You don't make
:39:52. > :39:54.predictions about this. The safety of London depends on what people
:39:55. > :39:59.recognise is going on in their communities, in the Islamic
:40:00. > :40:03.community, and reported to the authorities, so the authorities can
:40:04. > :40:07.take action. The key areas that deal with counterintelligence, those
:40:08. > :40:20.areas have been massively reinvested in. What about community policing?
:40:21. > :40:26.Doesn't that matter? 100 million is gone. 400 million to go. Do you
:40:27. > :40:29.defend those cuts? I do because the way you are effective in life
:40:30. > :40:35.doesn't depend on the mat of money you'd spend. It is how you deploy
:40:36. > :40:40.your resources. In the Metropolitan Police there is a rethink of how
:40:41. > :40:46.best to deploy resources, to make them more effective, get them on the
:40:47. > :40:50.front line, get the back up. With falling crime, and there has been
:40:51. > :40:53.falling crime in all those years, the Met police is probably no more
:40:54. > :41:00.efficient and effective than at any time. Crime has been falling. Some
:41:01. > :41:04.would say one of the reasons it has been falling is because police
:41:05. > :41:12.numbers and police investment has been up. You are making all of these
:41:13. > :41:17.cuts to policing. It is no accident that knife crime and violent crime
:41:18. > :41:21.is shooting up again? The issue about knife crime is an area that
:41:22. > :41:24.needs to be looked at carefully and separately. A huge amount of that is
:41:25. > :41:29.down to the growth in street gangs in United Kingdom, and certainly
:41:30. > :41:34.here in London, and the way it is dealt with. Where I live, we have
:41:35. > :41:41.started to look at tackling violent street gangs. In America they show
:41:42. > :41:48.you that you need strong community groups. You need those to be helping
:41:49. > :41:53.the police. Take the serious guys out and the them. That is a process.
:41:54. > :41:59.Not everywhere is doing that. There needs to be a concerted effort. The
:42:00. > :42:06.mayor should lead the charge on getting the different boroughs
:42:07. > :42:11.involved. That is how to do with it. It is not just more numbers. You
:42:12. > :42:15.have to focus on how you break the gangs. The Mayor of London recently
:42:16. > :42:20.described your leader as the... The Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan,
:42:21. > :42:23.recently accused Theresa May of being the most anti-London
:42:24. > :42:25.Prime Minister since Would the Conservative manifesto
:42:26. > :42:43.disadvantage the capital? Please welcome the Prime Minister,
:42:44. > :42:47.Theresa May. This year's Conservative manifesto may have had
:42:48. > :42:51.an almost unique impact. According to opinion pollsters, there is no
:42:52. > :42:55.example of these documents making a party less popular. But this may be
:42:56. > :43:01.an exception. Because it is the responsibility of leadership to be
:43:02. > :43:06.upfront and straight with people. At least according to the Labour mayor
:43:07. > :43:10.Sadiq Khan, this is the most anti-London government for decades.
:43:11. > :43:13.Time and again there are references to power and wealth being too
:43:14. > :43:18.concentrated in the capital. It goes so far as to say that closing the
:43:19. > :43:22.gap between London and other cities is the biggest prize in Britain
:43:23. > :43:25.today. There is no doubt the Conservative manifesto, in the way
:43:26. > :43:30.it looks at London, has the sense that London has over performed. And
:43:31. > :43:35.that is somehow bad for the rest of the country and we need to Tikrit
:43:36. > :43:39.authors away from London. In the manifesto, there is a promise to
:43:40. > :43:45.push ahead with the new funding formula for schools. Unlike the last
:43:46. > :43:49.Conservative manifesto, there is no mention of Crossrail two. There is a
:43:50. > :43:54.place to move service jobs outside London and to move Channel 4. While
:43:55. > :43:59.rebalancing the UK economy may sound like a good idea in principle, the
:44:00. > :44:01.reality is that London has the highest unemployment rate of
:44:02. > :44:05.anywhere in Britain. So if the Tories are talking about moving
:44:06. > :44:09.thousands of jobs from London and putting them somewhere else, do they
:44:10. > :44:17.not risk making one of London's most serious problems even worse? There
:44:18. > :44:23.we are. Lovely day. But more than anything else is the Conservative
:44:24. > :44:26.reforms to social care that have drawn criticism. Currently you get
:44:27. > :44:34.free care from the state if you have assets of less than ?23,000. But the
:44:35. > :44:37.plans will see that threshold rise. However, that now includes the value
:44:38. > :44:46.of your home. Since almost every home in the capital is worth at
:44:47. > :44:49.least 100,000, people will have to pay for their care with their home,
:44:50. > :44:54.including Margaret and her husband Eddie, who has Alzheimer's. His care
:44:55. > :45:01.bills are currently around ?3000 a month.
:45:02. > :45:12.By announcing that 100,000 limit to what you would lose, it was such a
:45:13. > :45:18.shock, and one felt out of control. You thought, oh dear. The reforms
:45:19. > :45:22.have been dogged in dementia tax, criticised for making people pay for
:45:23. > :45:28.having illnesses like Alzheimer's which require long-term care and
:45:29. > :45:33.treatment. It is a disease of the brain and this is another issue that
:45:34. > :45:40.the people with dementia have a chronic disease, why should they be
:45:41. > :45:47.paying really for the whole of the care in many cases as proposed, when
:45:48. > :45:51.it is a health issue? It is radical measure from a government trying to
:45:52. > :45:57.harness the incredible wealth is now tied up in London's housing. But in
:45:58. > :46:01.terms of dealing with the causes of the capital's housing crisis, the
:46:02. > :46:05.only direct reference in the manifesto is a promise not to
:46:06. > :46:09.concentrate development in the south-east of England. We need to
:46:10. > :46:14.build homes elsewhere as well. It is a very London view to save housing
:46:15. > :46:19.crisis is just a problem in our city. There are other parts of the
:46:20. > :46:24.country where the affordability ratio is at unaffordable levels. If
:46:25. > :46:29.I am the housing minister after the reaction my job is to solve the
:46:30. > :46:33.housing crisis across the country. This is a key battle ground for the
:46:34. > :46:37.Conservatives, but to do that they will need to convince Londoners they
:46:38. > :46:41.have the best interests of the capital at heart.
:46:42. > :46:47.It was an interesting expression in there about closing the gap between
:46:48. > :46:51.other cities and London. Has that balance been wrong? Do you accept
:46:52. > :46:54.that in redressing the balance in London may have to go through a
:46:55. > :46:59.transitional phase when it is not getting the same as others? I don't
:47:00. > :47:04.think that what you do when you try to redress the balance is strip
:47:05. > :47:11.stuff from London. You encourage people to do more in other regions.
:47:12. > :47:14.I will be looking at regional productivity, and we have almost
:47:15. > :47:18.uniquely in this country very big disparity between London and the
:47:19. > :47:24.south-east and the rest of the UK, in some parts really enormous. It is
:47:25. > :47:30.right for the Government to say, look, we need to do more to get
:47:31. > :47:34.things right in Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds... So in other
:47:35. > :47:39.words you think it will be levelling up. Looking at education, how can
:47:40. > :47:43.that be the case we know the shortages and cost of living are
:47:44. > :47:47.disproportionately high in London, how can a 7% real terms reduction
:47:48. > :47:53.per-pupil spending by the Conservatives over the next five
:47:54. > :47:57.years, how can that help? The 4 billion extra of the Conservative
:47:58. > :48:01.Party has said we will put back into education means in real terms,
:48:02. > :48:11.including inflation and everything else, school funding will go up.
:48:12. > :48:15.Per-pupil? Numbers go up because there is a rising number of pupils
:48:16. > :48:18.going into schools, here particularly in London, so the
:48:19. > :48:23.Government has gone one stage further and said any reassessment -
:48:24. > :48:28.because they have gone through this reassessment of how the money is
:48:29. > :48:33.spent - those schools will not lose out, they have guaranteed that
:48:34. > :48:35.money. That is the funding formula but the overall investment
:48:36. > :48:41.Conservatives are putting into schools in real terms, will you tell
:48:42. > :48:46.me if any of your head teachers anywhere, have any of them said they
:48:47. > :48:51.are happy with current resources? I have teachers and head teachers say
:48:52. > :48:55.they are concerned, of course they will be. My constituency is slightly
:48:56. > :48:59.divided, but the key point I have made is we have had a huge
:49:00. > :49:03.investment in schools over the last ten years, I really enormous amount,
:49:04. > :49:07.and going forward getting the economy right means the chances of
:49:08. > :49:11.reinvesting much more money in the future are higher there. The choice
:49:12. > :49:15.for London at the end of the day is not just about is it more or less,
:49:16. > :49:27.it is who do you think will be able to afford to make those pledges. OK,
:49:28. > :49:31.social care, this tricky one. Did you want to see a cap in the
:49:32. > :49:35.manifesto? I have always believed there would be a cap because this is
:49:36. > :49:40.not a policy statement, it is a Green paper coming out after the
:49:41. > :49:45.election. So were you surprised when there was no cap in the manifesto? I
:49:46. > :49:52.just assumed you don't put everything into the manifesto
:49:53. > :49:55.because it is a Green paper... Really? Something so crucial? The
:49:56. > :50:00.policy is about the Green paper about how we afford long-term care
:50:01. > :50:05.and one of the biggest problems is, and what isn't clear in your report
:50:06. > :50:08.is that right now people who have people in residential care, the
:50:09. > :50:14.houses are taken into consideration. The report was wrong on the 23,000,
:50:15. > :50:21.you can go down as low as 14,000 before... But now we know property
:50:22. > :50:27.is responsible for providing care. In which case we don't say 14,000 in
:50:28. > :50:31.savings, we say 100,000, never below, and with the cup it means you
:50:32. > :50:36.will be limited the amount you have to contribute. Which means do you
:50:37. > :50:42.accept by the looks of it anyone earning or with an estate over
:50:43. > :50:51.200,000 will gain? Do you think this is fair person owning an estate of
:50:52. > :50:55.?1 million pays the same as someone owning ?200,000? The people who can
:50:56. > :50:59.afford it will make a greater contribution, but the cap on the
:51:00. > :51:04.amount is clearer now at 100,000, secondly there will be no fear that
:51:05. > :51:09.someone in the house... It is not clear because we don't know where
:51:10. > :51:16.the cap is. It will be really essential. Right now it is forecast
:51:17. > :51:21.to be around 70 2000. That will be the discussion point in the Green
:51:22. > :51:27.paper. Can you understand the uncertainty that comes across. How
:51:28. > :51:31.damaging has it been? I don't think it has been damaging, there has been
:51:32. > :51:35.concern about it. The problem is most people don't know because they
:51:36. > :51:41.don't end up getting care, but if they do have to end up getting care
:51:42. > :51:45.they will actually end up paying significant sums of money for it. So
:51:46. > :51:49.this stops that happening and it stops the sale of the house at any
:51:50. > :51:55.cost until after both parties... Some people with long memories will
:51:56. > :51:59.remember the Conservatives attacking Labour for the same thing. Right now
:52:00. > :52:04.you can be asked to sell your house because they need the money to pay
:52:05. > :52:09.upfront. Some councils don't but some do and that causes anxiety, so
:52:10. > :52:14.this is a much better deal for people who are living... Another
:52:15. > :52:20.disproportionate impact in London is the question of benefits. Child tax
:52:21. > :52:24.credit cut and so on. You resigned from the Government over the cuts to
:52:25. > :52:31.disability and none of these things have been reversed in anyway. What
:52:32. > :52:37.do you say about that? We wanted to get more people into work, and more
:52:38. > :52:46.people with disability into work and both of those things are happening.
:52:47. > :52:53.My view was clear, I was posed to any change and the recent I resigned
:52:54. > :52:58.was because it was proposed to reduce that and I stopped fart so it
:52:59. > :53:03.isn't happening now. The truth is benefit payments rose by 60% under
:53:04. > :53:07.the last government and that became unsustainable for people who were by
:53:08. > :53:10.and large working but seeing no increase in their salaries. We know
:53:11. > :53:14.how much you talked about trying to help people through the universal
:53:15. > :53:20.credit, which you were responsible when you were the Minister for
:53:21. > :53:36.developing. It is rolling out brilliantly, it will change people's
:53:37. > :53:40.lives. You were also very unhappy... You will accept that in the
:53:41. > :53:43.manifesto those don't change, disproportionate impact on London
:53:44. > :53:47.again. These are the details you won't get into in a manifesto but I
:53:48. > :53:50.have continued to argue it would be the right thing to do to start
:53:51. > :53:55.restoring much of those allowances because it will encourage people to
:53:56. > :53:59.go back to work, but that is a matter for the Government. My
:54:00. > :54:04.argument remains the same. Universal credit will have a dramatic and
:54:05. > :54:11.positive effect on people's lives. It does affect about 50% of the
:54:12. > :54:19.people in London, apparently it has led already to being inventive
:54:20. > :54:24.arrears. No, the roll-out has reassessed the whole process and the
:54:25. > :54:28.reality is the rent arrears are not directly due to universal credit.
:54:29. > :54:33.Universal credit now has a much better system. Those who are renting
:54:34. > :54:38.houses can access universal credit. They can figure out who is on
:54:39. > :54:42.benefits, and if they start running up arrears they can hand them back
:54:43. > :54:47.to direct payment, that happens immediately under universal credit,
:54:48. > :54:51.it didn't under the old system. They could go on for months running up
:54:52. > :54:56.arrears. Universal credit will be a much better system for helping
:54:57. > :55:04.people with problems. Slow progress, and now you are not there will it be
:55:05. > :55:12.allowed to wither. No, it is rolling out now. Yes, but slowly. Let's move
:55:13. > :55:16.on. The Prime Minister called the snap
:55:17. > :55:19.election - she says - to give her a strong mandate
:55:20. > :55:21.to secure the best But how does that work for Londoners
:55:22. > :55:25.when the capital voted to remain in the EU,
:55:26. > :55:28.and when so much in the capital is at stake, from house building
:55:29. > :55:31.to the health of the City of London? Dan Freedman has been
:55:32. > :55:33.investigating. When she launched her party's
:55:34. > :55:35.manifesto earlier this month, the Prime Minister put Brexit
:55:36. > :55:36.front and centre. With the right Brexit deal secured,
:55:37. > :55:39.my mainstream government And in the party manifesto,
:55:40. > :55:43.Theresa May says Brexit will define us, our place in the world,
:55:44. > :55:45.our economic security by these broad brush
:55:46. > :55:54.stroke Brexit pledges? That we'll no longer
:55:55. > :55:56.members of the single market or customs union,
:55:57. > :56:00.we will enact a Great law into UK law, and we continue
:56:01. > :56:04.to believe that no deal is better London voted 60%
:56:05. > :56:08.to remain in the EU. Its success partly built
:56:09. > :56:10.on attracting international finance, global talent, and being seen
:56:11. > :56:13.as a gateway to the European market. So, will these Conservative
:56:14. > :56:18.commitments cut it in the capital? So anecdotally my feeling is that
:56:19. > :56:21.around 50% of our workforce comes If you reduce that, if you put
:56:22. > :56:28.barriers in the way, that's a significant hurdle
:56:29. > :56:31.to overcome and you will have real If we've already got a skills
:56:32. > :56:37.shortage at the moment in the UK, if you make it harder for people
:56:38. > :56:40.to come in, how is that skills You're going to have a rising wage
:56:41. > :56:44.demand, it could lead Bad news in a city where,
:56:45. > :56:49.after eight years of a Conservative mayoralty,
:56:50. > :56:51.the population grew by 900,000 A few miles away in Canary Wharf,
:56:52. > :56:59.and financial technology - or FinTech - is becoming another
:57:00. > :57:02.area where London's blowing European So, for us, really the big concern
:57:03. > :57:11.is around uncertainty. We don't know what's happening
:57:12. > :57:15.in regards to the trade agreements. We need the best Europeans
:57:16. > :57:18.to want to work for us, so for us it would be sensible
:57:19. > :57:21.to think about relocation For us, it's actually the freedom
:57:22. > :57:25.of movement argument So, because we have that
:57:26. > :57:29.development office in Latvia and because we are growing
:57:30. > :57:31.there quite rapidly, Are we still going to have access
:57:32. > :57:36.to that after Brexit? And while they do have
:57:37. > :57:38.questions about Brexit, who they think should negotiate
:57:39. > :57:41.it is clear. I think there's no question that
:57:42. > :57:43.Theresa May is the person that you would want at the table
:57:44. > :57:48.negotiating on our behalf. Probably Theresa's job to do this
:57:49. > :58:16.and to get the UK out of whatever How can the party have any
:58:17. > :58:21.credibility including this pledge on immigration, where you don't explain
:58:22. > :58:24.how you will get to it and there is no assessment of the impact it will
:58:25. > :58:29.have in London, and we have heard from all of the business groups of
:58:30. > :58:33.just how important migrant labour is? I wrote a paper about this a few
:58:34. > :58:37.months ago and the Government I think is heading in roughly the same
:58:38. > :58:41.direction. We have to take back control of our borders so we have
:58:42. > :58:46.controlled migration, controlling who comes in and what they come
:58:47. > :58:54.forth. You base it around jobs so we have a work permit process... Why is
:58:55. > :58:59.this not in the manifesto? The Government has already spoken about
:59:00. > :59:03.the work permit process. It hugely depends on... That is the real
:59:04. > :59:09.problem because people are being asked - you accept that? I
:59:10. > :59:14.understand people's concerns but we are just about to start the
:59:15. > :59:19.negotiations. The Evening Standard, edited by your old friend George
:59:20. > :59:33.Osborne, said economically illiterate. I actually think for
:59:34. > :59:37.example through the 1990s with very happily settled in migration but
:59:38. > :59:42.under a controlled basis that was well within that scope. The economy
:59:43. > :59:46.is growing at the moment... The economy was growing them. The idea
:59:47. > :59:51.uncontrolled migration is required for the economy to grow is total
:59:52. > :59:56.nonsense. Controlled migration is what we are talking about. Let me
:59:57. > :00:01.give you an example. What assessment has been done of the construction
:00:02. > :00:07.sector? There are currently 60,000 vacancies, how will you fill those?
:00:08. > :00:12.If you deal with entry-level trades, for example heavy goods vehicle
:00:13. > :00:15.drivers, you can deal with the construction industry, railways...
:00:16. > :00:21.There is a huge demand in these areas but many don't bother to train
:00:22. > :00:28.British workers. When I was running the DWP, we had queues of people who
:00:29. > :00:33.would love to have been... You blame business? They haven't trained
:00:34. > :00:38.people, and they will admit it. It was too easy to go somewhere else
:00:39. > :00:44.and get skilled people in without having to commit to that. Heavy
:00:45. > :00:49.goods vehicle, when you approach those companies they say they cannot
:00:50. > :00:56.find anybody. I bought a bunch of courses for them, got the costs
:00:57. > :01:01.down. What happens in the interim? There is no interim, that's the key
:01:02. > :01:10.point. With a controlled border we need to look at upscaling people.
:01:11. > :01:22.I was talking to a Belgian producer the other day and he loved. He said,
:01:23. > :01:26.we explored to you because we think you go for low skilled, imported
:01:27. > :01:31.workers. We invest in training. That is why we can sell around the world
:01:32. > :01:36.and sometimes your companies don't. We need to look at getting British
:01:37. > :01:40.people trained properly. That will help the productivity position of
:01:41. > :01:48.the UK. Yes, there will be in word migration. The Sunday Times today
:01:49. > :01:54.speculating that IDS may be back in the Cabinet. Have you had
:01:55. > :01:59.discussions? No, certainly not. I'm a free spirit and I can get on down
:02:00. > :02:03.to debate the issues I want. I want the Conservative government to get
:02:04. > :02:04.re-elected. Is the only choice for strong and stable leadership.
:02:05. > :02:19.Now, after the Manchester attack, will the final week of election
:02:20. > :02:26.campaigning different in tone from what came before? My panel are here.
:02:27. > :02:30.Tim Marshall, it will be very front of Centre for the next few days. Is
:02:31. > :02:36.that a good thing for the election if it is going to be framed to who
:02:37. > :02:40.do you feel more safe with? It is inevitable but I think it will only
:02:41. > :02:45.be part of the election. As I said before the opt out, for many voters
:02:46. > :02:51.this is also about economics, unemployment. It is not all about
:02:52. > :02:57.Brexit, nor is it only about security. What it will do, I hope,
:02:58. > :03:01.is get the tone of the debate right. Although I have already seen the
:03:02. > :03:06.tone being lowered. I wasn't impressed with Mr Corbyn's speech
:03:07. > :03:10.last week blaming it on a foreign policy, which is a wafer thin
:03:11. > :03:15.analysis of what is going on. Inappropriate timing too soon? No, I
:03:16. > :03:24.think the argument is utter nonsense. I don't want to attack
:03:25. > :03:27.just one side. The Conservative party, I've forgotten which minister
:03:28. > :03:33.has already said that we would be safer under a Tory Prime Minister,
:03:34. > :03:41.it has got nothing to do with Labour or Tory government, the next Islamic
:03:42. > :03:47.attack. It is to do with jihadist ideology, not party policies. You
:03:48. > :03:52.raise an important issue about tone. It also points to a broader
:03:53. > :03:55.argument, one we were having earlier, has politics been two
:03:56. > :04:01.courses with this issue of extremism? Has the conversation
:04:02. > :04:06.about it tiptoed around some of the sensitive issues? And by the media.
:04:07. > :04:14.You highlight the problem of this being part of the election campaign
:04:15. > :04:18.by saying, has politics been too cautious? Who do you mean by
:04:19. > :04:22.politics? And in an election campaign there is a duty to be a
:04:23. > :04:30.divide, and adamant about values, policies etc. Security is an issue
:04:31. > :04:34.that transcends those political divides. So I think it is deeply
:04:35. > :04:41.unhealthy. It is nobody's fault a tragedy occurred. But if you ask me
:04:42. > :04:48.does it help or enhance an election debate? Emphatically not. A tragic
:04:49. > :04:54.event brings politics, as you call it, together. Security is an issue
:04:55. > :05:01.that is complex and doesn't divide neatly. Elections are political
:05:02. > :05:06.battles, by definition. So I think the coming together of this, a
:05:07. > :05:13.tragedy occurred anyway, but it is an unfortunate context. Do you agree
:05:14. > :05:18.or do you think this is a time to talk about these issues? Is it a
:05:19. > :05:23.time to review the level of argument? This is a political
:05:24. > :05:26.debate. I personally think the politicians should have been out and
:05:27. > :05:33.about on Wednesday. There is no wrong time to get it right. We
:05:34. > :05:40.mustn't let the terrorists affect our way of life. But they have when
:05:41. > :05:43.we disrupt the election campaign. It may be party political. But for a
:05:44. > :05:49.lot of voters, including me, I want to hear from party leaders. What do
:05:50. > :05:54.you plan to do about this? Right now, I've not heard anything that
:05:55. > :05:58.suggests any of these parties have got to grips with the real problem,
:05:59. > :06:02.which is that we are not actually tackling the problem in our midst.
:06:03. > :06:06.Douglas Murray touched on it earlier. We have not even come to
:06:07. > :06:15.grips with the scale of the problem. Does Labour have a grip -- Power
:06:16. > :06:20.Point in terms of terrorist legislation? It is complicated. And
:06:21. > :06:25.not all of it has worked or is used enough by government? It is another
:06:26. > :06:30.example where this doesn't work in an election debate because David
:06:31. > :06:34.Davis has opposed a lot of this terrorism legislation. He is now
:06:35. > :06:41.heading Brexit. There is a civil liberties argument which I
:06:42. > :06:46.personally have doubts about. Again, it brings people together from the
:06:47. > :06:50.major parties. And Corbyn didn't actually say it was the cause of
:06:51. > :06:54.terrorism, British foreign policy, but it helped to facilitate
:06:55. > :06:58.terrorism, which is a different argument. Again, that would be
:06:59. > :07:02.supported by some Tories as well. That is why it is difficult in an
:07:03. > :07:07.election campaign for this issue to dominate. The front page of the
:07:08. > :07:10.Sunday Times talks about a campaign relaunch, which may not, grow as a
:07:11. > :07:17.great surprise following the social care fiasco. Do we know what that
:07:18. > :07:22.will entail? It sounds like Boris Johnson will play a role. The whole
:07:23. > :07:26.point is it was all about Theresa May and it turns out that is not
:07:27. > :07:30.quite good enough. The more we have seen of Theresa May, the less
:07:31. > :07:34.impressive she has looked. Certainly the Andrew Neil interview just
:07:35. > :07:39.repeating the same thing again and again. Voters don't like that. They
:07:40. > :07:43.like people who are honest and actually engage with them. When we
:07:44. > :07:47.see beat interviews in the next few days, I think it will be interesting
:07:48. > :07:51.to see if she changes tack and tries to engage with what people are
:07:52. > :07:58.asking. If it is back to leadership and Brexit, and the economy, will
:07:59. > :08:08.that be more comfortable ground? I think so. I understand framing it in
:08:09. > :08:12.terms of Brexit. But she has got to broaden it out. I think that is why
:08:13. > :08:20.she is broadening it out. I don't think the tragic events will
:08:21. > :08:24.absolutely dominate. That would be a small victory for terrorism. This is
:08:25. > :08:29.a country of 65 million people with an awful lot of issues. We have 65
:08:30. > :08:36.million votes, well, 65 million people with opinions in two weeks.
:08:37. > :08:40.It is quite a long campaign. There is still time to go. What do you
:08:41. > :08:45.think Labour will be focusing on from now on? I would imagine they
:08:46. > :08:51.will look very closely at where they are well ahead in the opinion polls
:08:52. > :08:56.and focus on that relentlessly. Public services, NHS etc. And try to
:08:57. > :09:02.get it off as soon as possible from security and fees is used which, on
:09:03. > :09:06.one level at least, appear to be a gift to the Conservatives. I assume
:09:07. > :09:10.that is what they are going to do. But this is a very unpredictable
:09:11. > :09:14.campaign where nothing has gone according to plan. Let's look ahead.
:09:15. > :09:21.On Wednesday evening we have got an election debate. It is in Cambridge.
:09:22. > :09:26.Leaders of some of the parties. Amber Rudd will be representing the
:09:27. > :09:30.Conservatives. We don't know yet who will represent Labour. Today we have
:09:31. > :09:35.had Amber Road and Diane Abbott against each other on Andrew Marr.
:09:36. > :09:40.Let's have a look. I think there is something to be said for a Home
:09:41. > :09:43.Secretary who has actually worked in the Home Office. I work in the home
:09:44. > :09:48.office for nearly three years as a graduate trainee. This government
:09:49. > :09:53.has always felt that urgency. That is why we have been putting in
:09:54. > :09:55.additional money. It is significant that the commission for extremism in
:09:56. > :10:01.the manifesto was put in before Manchester. We need to do more. You
:10:02. > :10:06.voted against prescribing those groups. Because there were groups on
:10:07. > :10:11.that list I deemed to be dissidents rather than terrorist organisations.
:10:12. > :10:13.We are making good progress with the companies who put in place
:10:14. > :10:20.encryption. We will continue to build on that. It was 34 years ago.
:10:21. > :10:25.I had a rather splendid Afro at the time. I don't have the same
:10:26. > :10:30.hairstyle. And I don't have the same views. It is 34 years on. The
:10:31. > :10:36.hairstyle has gone. Some of the views have gone. So you no longer,
:10:37. > :10:43.you regret what you said about the IRA? The hairstyle has gone, the
:10:44. > :10:46.views have gone. I would say to Diane Abbott that I have changed my
:10:47. > :10:53.hairstyle are few times in 34 years but I have not changed my view of
:10:54. > :10:56.how we keep the British public safe. Let's get away from hairstyle sides
:10:57. > :11:01.talk about the prospect of the two of them taking part in the election
:11:02. > :11:07.debate. Would you like to see that? On one level I would like to see it
:11:08. > :11:11.and another the level I would like to see an intelligent debate. I'm
:11:12. > :11:16.glad I never had an Afro or supported the IRA. Whenever Diane
:11:17. > :11:23.Abbott steps out in a TV studio or a radio studio, Labour haemorrhage
:11:24. > :11:27.votes. She cannot say things like my regret supporting this or that
:11:28. > :11:33.legislation. She is an absolute disaster. If Labour put her up, they
:11:34. > :11:44.are beyond mad. Who do you think Labour should put up? By the way, I
:11:45. > :11:49.did have an Afro! I based my whole log on Kevin Keegan and it was good.
:11:50. > :12:02.That is the wrong question. I will explain why. The Labour campaign, it
:12:03. > :12:07.seems to me there were only five or six people put up. That is the fault
:12:08. > :12:11.of others who refused to take part. It also shows the degree to which
:12:12. > :12:14.the current leadership can only rely on five or six people. I would
:12:15. > :12:19.imagine we are talking about a pool of five or six people. As for my
:12:20. > :12:23.judgment as to who the best public performer is in that pool, it would
:12:24. > :12:30.be by some margin John McDonnell, who is a very good interviewee and
:12:31. > :12:37.performer. I think he is a very good performer. It would come back to the
:12:38. > :12:44.economy at some point, presumably. But then it comes back to the IRA. I
:12:45. > :12:48.don't think the debate will be very illuminating. I think if Amber Rudd
:12:49. > :12:53.is there, Diane Abbott should be there. I think the leaders should be
:12:54. > :12:57.debating. Some people say it is froth. I think the leader -- the
:12:58. > :13:01.electorate gets a sense of the leaders. On haircuts, I would like
:13:02. > :13:05.to thank both of them are talking about the haircuts. I am looking
:13:06. > :13:11.forward to tomorrow's papers and the theme that will run through the
:13:12. > :13:18.week. Let's not finish on the hair. Thank you very much for being our
:13:19. > :13:23.guests. That is it for today. Thank the panel for Jonny May. Andrew Neil
:13:24. > :13:29.will be back next weekend. And I will be back on BBC Two on Tuesday.
:13:30. > :13:33.That is at midday with more daily politics. In the meantime, have a
:13:34. > :14:08.very lovely bank holiday. From all of us here, bye-bye.
:14:09. > :14:11.As voters prepare to go to the polls to choose who represents them
:14:12. > :14:21.the SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon joins me for the Andrew Neil Interviews.
:14:22. > :14:22.One minute to get the food on the plate.
:14:23. > :14:27...team them up with a Michelin starred chef,
:14:28. > :14:28.putting their reputation on the line.
:14:29. > :14:36...which team will have the recipe for success?
:14:37. > :14:39.One minute to get the food on the plate.