:00:39. > :00:40.Good morning, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:42.Not good enough - that is Theresa May's
:00:43. > :00:47.own verdict on the response to the Grenfell Tower fire,
:00:48. > :00:50.but that is also what a growing number are saying about her
:00:51. > :00:54.Having failed to win a majority, Mrs May will face a daily battle
:00:55. > :00:59.to win the votes she needs in Parliament, which is maybe why
:01:00. > :01:01.the new Leader of the Commons has already cancelled next year's
:01:02. > :01:10.And Labour are claiming the Government isn't legitimate.
:01:11. > :01:12.Have they forgotten that, despite defying
:01:13. > :01:14.all expectations in the election, they didn't actually win?
:01:15. > :01:16.In London: The terrible Grenfell Tower fire
:01:17. > :01:20.How could such a tragedy be allowed to happen
:01:21. > :01:32.And with me to discuss all of that and more,
:01:33. > :01:36.three journalists who always defy expectations - Steve Richards,
:01:37. > :01:39.Julia Hartley-Brewer, and Tom Newton Dunn.
:01:40. > :01:44.And they'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:45. > :01:46.Theresa May's authority was already in freefall even
:01:47. > :01:48.before her faltering handling of the appalling disaster
:01:49. > :01:54.Yesterday she admitted the official response had not been good enough.
:01:55. > :01:59.This morning's front pages, as well as reflecting the full
:02:00. > :02:01.horror of that tragedy, are also full of claims
:02:02. > :02:04.that her critics are circling and ready to pounce,
:02:05. > :02:10.though none, as yet, have come out publicly.
:02:11. > :02:12.Her Chancellor, Philip Hammond, was asked about the Prime Minister's
:02:13. > :02:16.position on the Andrew Marr Show earlier.
:02:17. > :02:23.I think what the country needs now is a period of calm while we get on
:02:24. > :02:26.with the job in hand. We've got some very serious issues to address,
:02:27. > :02:32.including the Brexit negotiations are just starting. Theresa is
:02:33. > :02:36.leading the Government and I think the Government needs to get on with
:02:37. > :02:39.his job. The you know what? I think that is what most people in the
:02:40. > :02:44.country will think - the Government needs to get on with the day job of
:02:45. > :02:51.Government. Get on with the day job, Tom - is that what they are saying
:02:52. > :02:54.in private? Some are. I was at lunch with a minister on Thursday who
:02:55. > :02:58.said, we need to get this thing sorted now because if we go one like
:02:59. > :03:01.this with the Prime Minister without any power at all, we will end up in
:03:02. > :03:06.a John Major situation and it will only get worse. Talking to people
:03:07. > :03:11.this week, I don't think that is the predominant view. That seems to be
:03:12. > :03:15.that she has to stay for the time being, at least until conference,
:03:16. > :03:18.and possibly as far as the end of the Brexit negotiations, because
:03:19. > :03:23.there is no real alternative, no obvious person who can come in. The
:03:24. > :03:26.last thing they want to do now is have an unbelievably divisive
:03:27. > :03:30.leadership contest and rip up the very thin consensus that currently
:03:31. > :03:35.still exist on Brexit and go back to square one. Journalist in London are
:03:36. > :03:42.now searching for whom Tom had lunch with on Thursday. Julia, is that
:03:43. > :03:45.sustainable in public? The Prime Minister's authority was already in
:03:46. > :03:52.free fall and she has not handled this disaster well. After the 1922
:03:53. > :03:55.committee meeting, they said, she handled this well and can handle
:03:56. > :04:04.this stuff. It was astoundingly poorly handled. Both practically and
:04:05. > :04:07.in terms of PR. The question is, is she capable of changing and behaving
:04:08. > :04:16.in a different way? Her selling point running for the leadership
:04:17. > :04:22.was, I don't do emotion and I am steady as she goes. It has not been,
:04:23. > :04:24.so if you don't have the touchy-feely Tony Blair David
:04:25. > :04:28.Cameron stuff, and you don't have strong and stable, you are kind of
:04:29. > :04:35.left with nothing. It's not that people don't want her, they just
:04:36. > :04:43.don't want the alternative. Steve, you have studied and lived through
:04:44. > :04:49.many of these situations that cannot go on, but often it does. For one
:04:50. > :04:52.thing, there is a fear of an early election, where MPs will think, we
:04:53. > :04:58.might lose our seats, so we must stop that from happening. Fear the
:04:59. > :05:10.leadership contest by which some freakish sequence they elect another
:05:11. > :05:16.dud. 74-79, Gordon Brown after the nonelection, and he survived several
:05:17. > :05:22.coups. This is a hung parliament where she has lost an overall
:05:23. > :05:26.majority, and I think there are questions about whether she herself
:05:27. > :05:31.is ready for the mountainous, daunting assent to come. One of the
:05:32. > :05:35.reasons that Gordon Brown succeeded and carried on, Steve, was that
:05:36. > :05:40.other people concluded they might not be better at the big job in
:05:41. > :05:44.hand, then the economic crisis. Is there a chance that now, for all the
:05:45. > :05:52.criticism of her, people say, know what, she is the best handle Brexit?
:05:53. > :05:56.They want her to carry the can for Brexit and everything. No one wants
:05:57. > :06:01.the leadership, whether it is Boris Johnson, David Davis or anyone else,
:06:02. > :06:05.unless they can ride up on their white steed and save the day. Also,
:06:06. > :06:10.Brexit will not be the most beautiful experience. There will be
:06:11. > :06:14.compromises and pain. A lot of people think, we will get her to
:06:15. > :06:20.sign the ?50 billion cheque, someone else can come in on a white horse
:06:21. > :06:23.and save the day. Bets from journalists are not a clever thing
:06:24. > :06:29.to do, but are you all saying that you think she will survive for some
:06:30. > :06:34.time? I think she will, but I'm not sure how long. Philip Hammond didn't
:06:35. > :06:38.answer the question because he doesn't know either. I think she
:06:39. > :06:44.will for some time. A week ago, I thought there would be an election
:06:45. > :06:47.in the autumn. I didn't make a prediction of the election outcome,
:06:48. > :06:52.so I didn't get it wrong, but I didn't get it right either. If she
:06:53. > :06:55.doesn't screw up, she will probably last until the end of Brexit. For
:06:56. > :06:58.the moment, thank you very much. Theresa May's failure to win
:06:59. > :07:00.a majority after a disastrous election campaign has
:07:01. > :07:02.left her critics returning to that famous phrase once used
:07:03. > :07:04.by Norman Lamont to describe John Major - in office,
:07:05. > :07:06.but not in power. Short of MPs and shorn
:07:07. > :07:09.of her closest advisers, she now faces a disgruntled party,
:07:10. > :07:12.an emboldened opposition, the start of Brexit negotiations and,
:07:13. > :07:20.as we've been saying, claims that she has mishandled
:07:21. > :07:22.a national crisis. When Theresa May finally visited
:07:23. > :07:24.residents at the scene of the Grenfell Tower fire,
:07:25. > :07:26.she was jeered by some residents, Many questions have been raised,
:07:27. > :07:32.of course, about successive Governments' approach to fire
:07:33. > :07:35.regulation, as well as the speed and scale of the official
:07:36. > :07:39.response to the disaster. This crisis comes at a time
:07:40. > :07:42.when the Prime Minister is still trying to construct
:07:43. > :07:46.a Commons majority by securing the support of the ten MPs
:07:47. > :07:48.of Northern Ireland's The DUP is demanding more funding
:07:49. > :07:53.for Northern Ireland and is thought to want a series of Conservative
:07:54. > :08:04.manifesto promises dropped. This means that Wednesday's Queen's
:08:05. > :08:06.Speech, when the Government sets out its plans for the year, will -
:08:07. > :08:10.in the words of one Controversial plans like reversing
:08:11. > :08:13.the ban on opening new grammar schools, ending free lunches
:08:14. > :08:15.at English primary schools, and the scheme designed to reform
:08:16. > :08:18.social care funding are all likely to be scaled down or
:08:19. > :08:20.dropped altogether. The Government has scrapped next
:08:21. > :08:26.year's Queen's speech and is planning a rare
:08:27. > :08:28.two-year Parliament to give more time for MPs to debate
:08:29. > :08:31.Brexit, it says, but its critics say the Government
:08:32. > :08:34.is running scared. Because, of course, what hangs over
:08:35. > :08:37.everything the Government now does is the small matter
:08:38. > :08:40.of negotiating our way out Well, to discuss all of this,
:08:41. > :08:50.I'm joined by the newly appointed leader of the Commons,
:08:51. > :08:58.Andrea Leadsom. Good morning, and thanks for coming
:08:59. > :09:05.on the programme. The election seems a lifetime ago, but then, the
:09:06. > :09:08.Conservative Party promised strong and stable leadership. It's not
:09:09. > :09:14.unreasonable to say that you don't look strong or stable and there's
:09:15. > :09:18.not a lot of leadership. The last couple of weeks have been extremely
:09:19. > :09:22.devastating, and I think the real focus of the Government over the
:09:23. > :09:26.last week since that awful tragedy at Grenfell Tower has been trying to
:09:27. > :09:30.ensure that everything is being done for the victims. I know there has
:09:31. > :09:34.been a big narrative about what could have been done better and so
:09:35. > :09:38.on, but in truth, the Prime Minister has had a job to do, and she really
:09:39. > :09:43.has focused on trying to make sure that the residents are taking care
:09:44. > :09:46.of, and that's got to be the priority. Why did you go and meet
:09:47. > :09:52.them to hear their anger and pain but she initially did not? I was
:09:53. > :09:55.there as the new Leader of the House of Commons and had helped to arrange
:09:56. > :10:01.an emergency briefing for MPs and peers the previous day, and it was
:10:02. > :10:06.so apparent how desperately moved and sympathetic and distraught all
:10:07. > :10:10.MPs were, right across the House. Which raises the question of why the
:10:11. > :10:21.Prime Minister did not go. She had a job to do. Too busy? No, but she
:10:22. > :10:25.needed to ensure that what the residents needed, sorting out bank
:10:26. > :10:28.accounts, mobile phones, trauma counselling and accommodation, she
:10:29. > :10:33.was trying to get a handle on all of that to make sure that those things
:10:34. > :10:35.were taking care of. She issued a statement yesterday saying the
:10:36. > :10:41.response was not good enough. The one nudges and winks from her
:10:42. > :10:46.advisers that it was not done properly. Do you think the Prime
:10:47. > :10:50.Minister did not get this right? I think we are all very conscious that
:10:51. > :10:56.the support wasn't good enough in the first couple of days. Obviously,
:10:57. > :11:01.all local councils are geared up to try and deal with the relief from
:11:02. > :11:06.disasters such as this, but this is unprecedented, this is absolutely
:11:07. > :11:10.harrowing, and I know that the council did everything they could
:11:11. > :11:16.with massive support. People are furious, and with good reason. I
:11:17. > :11:20.hear you say that you understand and you feel people's pain. The Prime
:11:21. > :11:26.Minister was busy, the council did their bit, so who got it wrong?
:11:27. > :11:30.Someone has to be held responsible. Absolutely right, and as I am trying
:11:31. > :11:34.to explain, the council really... And I rang the chief executive to
:11:35. > :11:38.try and give specific feedback from some of the residents. He was
:11:39. > :11:42.absolutely trying to put the right people in place to deal with that.
:11:43. > :11:47.We had a lot of feedback from community leaders. So the council
:11:48. > :11:50.would be replaced? We are hearing talk of someone being drafted in to
:11:51. > :11:54.replace them because they are not doing well enough. The Prime
:11:55. > :11:57.Minister has decided to bring in very experienced civil servants to
:11:58. > :12:00.improve and to add to the resources of the local council so that issues
:12:01. > :12:05.can be addressed much more quickly and with greater experience and
:12:06. > :12:09.precision, quite rightly. Part of the problem with what may have led
:12:10. > :12:15.to the fire and what is happening now is that no one thinks anyone is
:12:16. > :12:21.in charge. When you talk about who could is -- who keeps people save,
:12:22. > :12:25.is it the council, the people who manage the block, is at the fire
:12:26. > :12:31.brigade, the people who inspect the work, the Government? No one knows
:12:32. > :12:36.who is in charge. In this specific case, the Prime Minister is now in
:12:37. > :12:40.charge of the committee that is bringing together all necessary
:12:41. > :12:43.resources, but I think you make a very good question, Nick - we do
:12:44. > :12:49.need to understand better how we can ensure that this just cannot happen
:12:50. > :12:53.again. By clear lines of responsibility. This is horrific.
:12:54. > :12:59.Yes, all those lessons need to be learnt about if I may, there are two
:13:00. > :13:03.aspects: Dealing with the very real, pressing, urgent needs of those
:13:04. > :13:06.poor, absolutely horrified and traumatised victims, and then this
:13:07. > :13:11.bigger question about who should be in charge and where the buck stops
:13:12. > :13:15.and who should be in control. They are two separate issues. When you
:13:16. > :13:24.hear the rage, and it is rage can I ask a personal question? Do you feel
:13:25. > :13:29.shame as a politician? Of course. We all think, what could we have done
:13:30. > :13:35.or should we have done? It's just unbearable. You know, this cannot
:13:36. > :13:39.happen in the 21st century, and yet it has. If it weren't for this, this
:13:40. > :13:42.would still be a huge week in politics, with the Queen 's speech
:13:43. > :13:45.coming, a new parliament, and you have been appointed Leader of the
:13:46. > :13:50.Commons, in charge of Government business. Why have you already,
:13:51. > :13:55.almost your first act as Leader of the Commons, scrapped the next Queen
:13:56. > :14:02.'s speech, next year's, to make sure that the parliament last for two
:14:03. > :14:07.years and not one, unusually? It happened in 2005 and 2010. It didn't
:14:08. > :14:11.happen during the war or during other crises. It is the rate of
:14:12. > :14:15.legislation rather than crises. There is a lot of legislation to go
:14:16. > :14:20.through. And we're leaving the EU at the end of March 2019, so having a
:14:21. > :14:24.two-year period in which to bring together parliament and Government
:14:25. > :14:28.to really make progress with legislation that is essential to
:14:29. > :14:32.making a real success of Brexit, there are some big advantages, it's
:14:33. > :14:36.all a bit technical, but as you will know, select committees don't have
:14:37. > :14:39.to ditch enquiries, bills don't have to be carried forward, and there
:14:40. > :14:45.will be more Parliamentary time for scrutiny... The advantages, you
:14:46. > :14:49.don't have to risk another Queen 's speech which you might lose. In
:14:50. > :14:52.other words, having two years makes it just a little bit easier for the
:14:53. > :14:58.Government to survive than it might otherwise be.
:14:59. > :15:05.I want to be clear, that is not any reason for doing this. There are
:15:06. > :15:10.plenty of opportunities if you want to speculate on problems for the
:15:11. > :15:18.Government. The point about this two year Parliament is it enables us to
:15:19. > :15:23.get the work of leaving the EU done, but the same time we have a
:15:24. > :15:25.legislative programme to tackle the issues of inequality, lack of
:15:26. > :15:30.opportunity, and we want to have a good run at that at this difficult
:15:31. > :15:36.time. You have yet to unveil the deal with the DUP, I assume we will
:15:37. > :15:42.see that tomorrow, we do, how many parts of the manifesto will have to
:15:43. > :15:48.be ditched? There are lengthy conversations now with the DUP and
:15:49. > :15:53.we share a number of interests in common, ensuring we make a success
:15:54. > :15:59.of Brexit and there's no hard border between the Republic of Ireland and
:16:00. > :16:02.Northern Ireland. They will brace against hard austerity, so some of
:16:03. > :16:07.the tough things you're doing in your manifesto like scrapping all
:16:08. > :16:12.meals in England for example, changing the social care system,
:16:13. > :16:17.ending the winter fuel allowance for some people, they will go, won't
:16:18. > :16:22.they? We don't ever talk about the Queen's speech in advance, the Queen
:16:23. > :16:26.will make those announcements on Wednesday. I'm preparing people for
:16:27. > :16:31.the fact that some of the things you said in the manifesto will have to
:16:32. > :16:37.go? The issue is that we have an enormous job to do to make a success
:16:38. > :16:42.of Brexit and we have huge ambitions for a social, domestic legislative
:16:43. > :16:46.programme that will improve life opportunities and reduce
:16:47. > :16:51.inequalities in this nation. Is that's a long winded way of saying
:16:52. > :16:58.yes? We will prioritise those things. You went to the country and
:16:59. > :17:02.Theresa May went to the country asking for a Brexit mandate and you
:17:03. > :17:11.didn't get one, the country didn't give you a majority. As one of the
:17:12. > :17:16.leading campaigners for Leave, does that make you conclude something has
:17:17. > :17:21.to change? Overrated percent voted for parties who stood on manifestos
:17:22. > :17:26.for leaving the EU so I don't recognise what you say that we don't
:17:27. > :17:30.have a mandate for Brexit. We do. At the referendum last year and also
:17:31. > :17:35.the results of the general election. As I say, over 80% of people voting
:17:36. > :17:39.for parties that will respect the result of the referendum. Had on
:17:40. > :17:43.television this morning Kier Starmer of the Labour Party saying he wanted
:17:44. > :17:53.to stay in the customs union, in other words you may have a majority
:17:54. > :17:56.for the headlines, but the detail there is no majority for, no
:17:57. > :18:00.agreement on and what I'm really asking you is whether you will have
:18:01. > :18:05.to reach out to find that sort of agreement. In my new job as Leader
:18:06. > :18:10.of the House of Commons, it will be important to listen to all members
:18:11. > :18:14.right across The House, but I think it is extremely clear that in
:18:15. > :18:20.leaving the EU we will be taking back control of our laws, our
:18:21. > :18:26.borders, our money, and that means leaving the single market, it means
:18:27. > :18:29.giving up on free movement. It means taking back those laws, putting them
:18:30. > :18:38.into UK law and being able to change them. If it takes time, in other
:18:39. > :18:42.words if that is the agreed and objective but to take some time and
:18:43. > :18:46.the Chancellor says, you know what, we need two or three years for
:18:47. > :18:56.business to be clear, for there to be no so-called cliff edges, do you
:18:57. > :19:02.say you have the time? The negotiation begins tomorrow. It is
:19:03. > :19:07.going to be very, you know, strong on all sides, but certainly my
:19:08. > :19:12.experience from talking to other EU politicians is that they absolutely
:19:13. > :19:19.recognise the desire as we do for a strong partnership and for there to
:19:20. > :19:23.be low tariff... I asked about time, and the reason is let's not use the
:19:24. > :19:30.word speculation, the Chancellor on the television this morning said
:19:31. > :19:34.time, no cliff edges, time. Where you have politicians across the EU
:19:35. > :19:41.and the UK who share the desire for a successful outcome with lower
:19:42. > :19:44.tariffs, zero nontariff barriers, free trade between ourselves, it
:19:45. > :19:50.should be possible to meet the time frame. In other words no
:19:51. > :19:55.transitional arrangements? I am extremely optimistic there is a lot
:19:56. > :20:00.we can agree on. I am just saying to you, my expectation is there will be
:20:01. > :20:03.a lot we can agree on and that will facilitate a smooth transition. It
:20:04. > :20:07.is clear Theresa May will not be running as your leader at the next
:20:08. > :20:13.general election, so when is the right time for the party to consider
:20:14. > :20:21.who will be leading next? Before or after Brexit? That is absolutely a
:20:22. > :20:25.statement I would reject. You cannot see into the future. We have seen a
:20:26. > :20:29.lot of change in recent weeks and months. The Prime Minister has done
:20:30. > :20:33.a fantastic job in bringing the country back to a good place since
:20:34. > :20:41.she has been the leader and Prime Minister. She is determined to
:20:42. > :20:46.continue... She might lead the party into another election. I don't look
:20:47. > :20:51.into the future. Let's put it another way, do you think there is a
:20:52. > :20:56.chance some of the Conservative will lead the Brexit negotiations? I
:20:57. > :21:02.think the Prime Minister will lead the Brexit negotiations. She has led
:21:03. > :21:09.preparations extremely well and determinedly on behalf of the whole
:21:10. > :21:14.country. And in that two years for the negotiation, it may be in need
:21:15. > :21:19.time to save can look ahead to who our next leader is. I think it is
:21:20. > :21:23.unhelpful to speculate on the future in that way. We need a coming
:21:24. > :21:29.together, a recognition that all people need to have their say, and
:21:30. > :21:33.strong leadership that can take us forward. Theresa May with her
:21:34. > :21:40.Cabinet are determined to provide that. Are you believed you didn't
:21:41. > :21:49.get the job? I supported the Prime Minister. -- are you relieve you
:21:50. > :21:53.didn't get the job? I am completely backing Theresa May as our Prime
:21:54. > :21:58.Minister. Thank you for taking the time to join does.
:21:59. > :22:00.Whilst Theresa May and the Government have been struggling
:22:01. > :22:03.to deal with the disaster at Grenfell Tower, Jeremy Corbyn
:22:04. > :22:06.was hailed by residents after his visit to the area on Thursday.
:22:07. > :22:08.Is Labour properly reflecting and channelling the public's anger,
:22:09. > :22:10.or are they exploiting it - playing political games,
:22:11. > :22:15.I'm joined now by the Shadow Local Government Secretary and Labour's
:22:16. > :22:27.Good morning. There is a lot of anger on the streets, much of it
:22:28. > :22:31.understandable that other people will share, but as the main
:22:32. > :22:37.opposition party, do you have a responsibility to calm it down
:22:38. > :22:43.rather than turn it up? I don't think we are stirring it up, I would
:22:44. > :22:47.hope that we have been fully responsible in reflecting the
:22:48. > :22:54.concerns, the anxieties, the hurt and worry of those residents in
:22:55. > :22:58.Kensington. I want to pay tribute to the community that pulls together in
:22:59. > :23:05.the face of adversity. Can't even begin to think of the pain that
:23:06. > :23:09.people are going through, the hurt that community is going through, and
:23:10. > :23:13.yet they have pulled together to look after one another to do some of
:23:14. > :23:17.the things that statutory authorities should be doing, and I
:23:18. > :23:21.think it is right and proper that we get to the bottom of what has
:23:22. > :23:26.happened in this dreadful tragedy, and make sure we put right
:23:27. > :23:30.everything that needs putting right so we never, ever experienced
:23:31. > :23:37.anything as horrific as this again. I want to talk about how that might
:23:38. > :23:44.be done in a second. You safe Labour are coming down. Clive Lewis tweeted
:23:45. > :23:49.Burn Neo Liberalism not People, do you think that is responsible at a
:23:50. > :23:57.time like this? I think it is important we are measured in our
:23:58. > :24:03.approach here. Is that measured? Clive will answer for what he has
:24:04. > :24:08.tweeted. There is an issue here that we have had seven years of cuts to
:24:09. > :24:11.our public services. Local authorities don't have the resources
:24:12. > :24:18.that they need to be able to provide some of the most basic services. The
:24:19. > :24:23.Fire Service is under resourced as well, and there are issues. This
:24:24. > :24:26.probably isn't the time to go into them, but there are issues that need
:24:27. > :24:30.to be resolved about how we make sure that health and safety
:24:31. > :24:35.regulation isn't seen as a burden on business, isn't seen as unnecessary
:24:36. > :24:41.red tape, it's about saving lives and protecting people. Your
:24:42. > :24:46.implication, almost your statement, is austerity was the reason for the
:24:47. > :24:51.fire. It may turn out to be true, and plenty of people believe it, but
:24:52. > :24:58.what is your evidence for saying austerity caused this fire? I
:24:59. > :25:03.haven't said that. I said there are number of issues here. Health and
:25:04. > :25:08.safety regulation is one, building regulations are another. The role of
:25:09. > :25:12.government is important in this, how local authorities are able to fund
:25:13. > :25:18.under resourced civil contingencies emergency planning. But your leader
:25:19. > :25:24.said if you cut local authority expenditure, the price is paid
:25:25. > :25:28.somehow. The implication was clear that the cuts lead to the fire and
:25:29. > :25:32.it could be that this was bad regulation, it could be that the
:25:33. > :25:36.regulation was fine but not followed, it could be criminal
:25:37. > :25:42.negligence, it may not turn out to be cuts at all. It could be all of
:25:43. > :25:47.those things and the important thing is we get the inquiry. We have as
:25:48. > :25:53.wide as possible terms of reference for the inquiry, we ensure the
:25:54. > :25:57.residents, victims and local community have a full voice in that
:25:58. > :26:02.inquiry and we make sure the actions which are required both that we
:26:03. > :26:07.already know from previous incidents but also the recommendations that,
:26:08. > :26:13.of this inquiry are acted upon. We cannot ever have situation again
:26:14. > :26:17.where we have recommendations from previous reports that have not been
:26:18. > :26:25.acted on by government or local government. There has been a focus
:26:26. > :26:29.of criticism on Kensington Council but there are many Labour councils
:26:30. > :26:35.with this kind of cladding on the residential tower blocks. Do you now
:26:36. > :26:38.know how many it is? No, but we do know every local authority and
:26:39. > :26:43.housing association in the country are now urgently investigating their
:26:44. > :26:49.own housing stock and we very clearly have to know that. I have
:26:50. > :26:57.got tower blocks in my own constituency that have recently been
:26:58. > :27:00.re-clad and I have contacted my housing providers because I want
:27:01. > :27:06.assurances on behalf of my constituents that they are living in
:27:07. > :27:14.safe housing. We understand me that carried out the work in Grenfell
:27:15. > :27:18.also carried out work in Labour run Camden so it's possible this sort of
:27:19. > :27:27.fire, God help us that it doesn't, it might happen in another borough
:27:28. > :27:30.and in an area where the parties opposed to austerity. Absolutely and
:27:31. > :27:35.we have got to make sure we identify precisely which housing stock does
:27:36. > :27:40.not meet modern requirements, does not meet the safety minimum
:27:41. > :27:45.standards, and that we urgently put that right. We cannot ever have a
:27:46. > :27:50.catastrophe like this again, and I have been in this job as shadow
:27:51. > :27:56.community Secretary for four days now. It pains me to see what has
:27:57. > :28:00.happened in Kensington. This is awful, these are human lives and we
:28:01. > :28:05.have got to start treating people and communities with the respect and
:28:06. > :28:08.with the humanity that they deserve. You were careful at the top to say
:28:09. > :28:16.it's important to be responsible, what do you think the fourth of the
:28:17. > :28:25.call for a day of rage, not by the Labour Party, the day of rage on
:28:26. > :28:31.Wednesday and quote, the Tories have blood on their hands? I don't
:28:32. > :28:35.associate myself with those kind of comments. I think if we are going to
:28:36. > :28:39.do something on Wednesday it is a vigil for those people who have lost
:28:40. > :28:45.their lives because this is a tragedy and we cannot ever have that
:28:46. > :28:48.happen again. The reason I ask is John McDonnell, the Shadow
:28:49. > :28:54.Chancellor, said, and I quote, I don't think this Government is a
:28:55. > :28:59.legitimate government. Do you think it is?
:29:00. > :29:06.In the sense that Theresa May went to the country asking for a bigger
:29:07. > :29:09.Parliamentary majority and a mandate from the people, and she came out on
:29:10. > :29:14.the 8th of June with no Parliamentary majority at all, so it
:29:15. > :29:16.does raise questions about the legitimacy of this Government's
:29:17. > :29:22.ability to put forward a programme that they stood for election on.
:29:23. > :29:27.That is a different point. I asked a simple question: Is this a
:29:28. > :29:31.legitimate Government? Did they win more votes and seats under the rules
:29:32. > :29:39.and therefore is your message to anyone taking to the streets to
:29:40. > :29:44.claim that they are not legitimate? We are a democracy, we have
:29:45. > :29:51.elections, and the Conservatives won 42% of the vote in the election. The
:29:52. > :29:57.Tories lost seats, and the Labour Party gain seats. We are in a
:29:58. > :30:03.Parliamentary democracy and we will hold the Government to account for
:30:04. > :30:10.as long as little as it survives. Why did Mr McDonnell not say what
:30:11. > :30:15.you have said, that you will beat them in the House of Commons? He
:30:16. > :30:19.went on to say, we need as many as 1 million people on the streets of
:30:20. > :30:21.London. He wasn't talking about this fire, to be fair, but about a
:30:22. > :30:25.protest planned for the start of July. He said we need a million
:30:26. > :30:32.people on the streets of London to force the Tories out. Is that
:30:33. > :30:34.democracy? Clearly, peaceful demonstration is part of our
:30:35. > :30:38.democratic rights, and people feel very strongly that this Government
:30:39. > :30:43.has lost a mandate because Theresa May went to the country asking for a
:30:44. > :30:47.bigger majority, and the country said no. They took that majority
:30:48. > :30:53.that she had away from her. I want to make sure we hold this Government
:30:54. > :30:58.to account, and at the earliest opportunity defeat this Government
:30:59. > :31:02.so that we can put into practice our positive agenda for a fairer,
:31:03. > :31:04.better, more recall Britain that works for the many, not the few.
:31:05. > :31:06.Thank you for joining us. Will the Government's Brexit
:31:07. > :31:09.plans have to change following the election
:31:10. > :31:11.after they failed to get the mandate Theresa May demanded,
:31:12. > :31:13.leaving them with no Lots of attention has focused
:31:14. > :31:17.on whether Britain's future does lie That makes it easy for firms
:31:18. > :31:23.to trade within the EU, but prevents Britain
:31:24. > :31:25.striking its own free trade deals Let's have a listen
:31:26. > :31:32.to Labour's Shadow Brexit Secretary, Keir Starmer, and the Chancellor,
:31:33. > :31:35.Philip Hammond, speaking earlier. Well, I think that should
:31:36. > :31:40.be left on the table. So, we could stay
:31:41. > :31:42.inside the customs union? We are leaving the EU,
:31:43. > :31:46.and because we are leaving the EU we will be leaving the single
:31:47. > :31:49.market, and by the way we will be The question is not whether we are
:31:50. > :31:53.leaving the customs union, the question is what we put
:31:54. > :31:56.in its place in order to deliver the objectives
:31:57. > :32:01.the Prime Minister set out. Well, to see what two
:32:02. > :32:04.people from the world of business make of this,
:32:05. > :32:06.I'm joined by the former director general of the CBI and one-time
:32:07. > :32:10.trade minister Digby Jones, and by the fund manager
:32:11. > :32:22.Nicola Horlick. Good morning to you both. Digby,
:32:23. > :32:27.before we get bogged down in what people should or shouldn't do in the
:32:28. > :32:32.Government, from a business perspective, the customs union -
:32:33. > :32:38.what exactly is it can provide does it matter to businesses? -- what
:32:39. > :32:42.exactly is it and why does it matter to businesses? People are saying we
:32:43. > :32:51.need to stay in the single market, but why then they say the other
:32:52. > :32:57.words - Britain's judges don't have control over the law? The customs
:32:58. > :33:03.union is something where you can be within a trading relationship, not
:33:04. > :33:07.as integrated as the single market, but the big problem we will have
:33:08. > :33:15.coming out of the single market is not tariffs, I don't think, because
:33:16. > :33:21.that will hurt Europe, the problem is the bureaucracy, the regulatory
:33:22. > :33:28.burden of getting goods and services across borders. Crudely, businesses
:33:29. > :33:33.are worried about being delayed on the border by paperwork, deliberate
:33:34. > :33:37.paperwork, perhaps, making it harder for our businesses to do business.
:33:38. > :33:48.That is what the issue is. That is the biggest part. The other part is
:33:49. > :33:51.that you get this sense of being in something, so that investors from
:33:52. > :33:55.Japan, America and China who come to Britain for good reasons get the
:33:56. > :33:59.advantage of being within this trading relationship. There are two
:34:00. > :34:03.big downsides to it. One is that you have to pay money for it. It doesn't
:34:04. > :34:11.come free. There is a check to write. And the second one, the big
:34:12. > :34:14.one, in all my years at the CBI and as a Trade Minister, you find that
:34:15. > :34:18.we are well known for trading openly around the world with good-quality
:34:19. > :34:22.traders will stop we don't do the protectionism of America and France,
:34:23. > :34:27.we are actually good at this. This forbid you from going around the
:34:28. > :34:32.world and dealing with Singapore, America or China, or whoever. You
:34:33. > :34:35.have two at brussels do it and you are forbidden from being part of the
:34:36. > :34:39.global economy. I think that will be the big thing that stops things.
:34:40. > :34:44.Thank you for the moment. Nicola, in the end, if you could get the
:34:45. > :34:47.advantages of a border that was simple to do business across,
:34:48. > :34:52.wouldn't it make sense, as Digby Jones says, to get out of the
:34:53. > :34:54.customs union and be able to trade around the world freely, without
:34:55. > :35:00.waiting for Brussels to do some deal that would take many years? The
:35:01. > :35:04.problem is, striking trade deals takes many years, as we've seen.
:35:05. > :35:10.There are many examples likely where the EU has been trying to negotiate
:35:11. > :35:12.something, or the US has, and it takes years and then sometimes
:35:13. > :35:17.stumbles at the last hurdle. The idea that we can suddenly strike our
:35:18. > :35:22.own trade deals is nonsense, in my view. It will take years. We will be
:35:23. > :35:30.cutting off our nose to spite our face if we shun the EU. There are
:35:31. > :35:33.500 million people in the EU, including Britain, so it goes down a
:35:34. > :35:37.bit if we come out. The point is, we can trade freely with that block
:35:38. > :35:43.currently with no constraints. You are cheering on Labour's Kia Starmer
:35:44. > :35:49.when he says, we are getting out of the EU, but we might be able to stay
:35:50. > :35:52.in the customs union? As Digby said, if you stay in the customs union,
:35:53. > :35:57.you cannot do your own trade deals. We heard from the Chancellor this
:35:58. > :36:01.morning that there was a middle position, where we get out of the
:36:02. > :36:04.customs union but over a period of years, to stop businesses having the
:36:05. > :36:09.worry is that you set out, there would be some sort of transition.
:36:10. > :36:15.Are you up for that? What business needs is certainty, boring
:36:16. > :36:18.predictability. And the next couple of years are going to deliver
:36:19. > :36:23.precisely the opposite. Anyone who thinks otherwise is for the birds.
:36:24. > :36:27.If it were set out as a timetable and everyone knew that by this date,
:36:28. > :36:34.this date and this date, things will happen, then I am up for that. We
:36:35. > :36:40.have to make sure that people understand, and this is so
:36:41. > :36:44.important, that the European union is big trading bloc, Nicola is
:36:45. > :36:54.right, but it is only one. This is Asia's century, not America's or
:36:55. > :37:00.Europe's. You have Brussels marching valiantly towards 1970. We need to
:37:01. > :37:04.hit our wagon to the world. A civil servant used a phrase many years ago
:37:05. > :37:09.- we don't want to chain ourselves to a corpse. He said that about
:37:10. > :37:16.Europe. The future is elsewhere, Nicola? The fact is, it is not only
:37:17. > :37:19.a huge area with 500 million people, but it is also very prosperous. You
:37:20. > :37:23.would have to do an awful lot of trade deals across many territories
:37:24. > :37:27.to actually replicate what we currently have, which is free access
:37:28. > :37:32.to a huge trade block with no constraints, and that has been
:37:33. > :37:36.beneficial to our economy. I want to be clear that you didn't want to
:37:37. > :37:39.leave, and you would love to reverse it now if you could, I suspect, but
:37:40. > :37:44.do you think it is possible to get out as the people voted for, but
:37:45. > :37:51.still have the advantages of the customs union? I think that is very.
:37:52. > :37:56.In or out? Yes. If you look at what happened during the election, there
:37:57. > :37:59.has been a huge thing about 80% of people voting for parties that want
:38:00. > :38:04.a Brexit. I don't think that's true. If you look at what happened, a lot
:38:05. > :38:07.of younger people voted who were expected to vote, and they are
:38:08. > :38:13.certainly not in favour of leaving the EU, the single market, the
:38:14. > :38:16.customs union or any of it. Would be, when you describe the advantages
:38:17. > :38:21.of the customs union, many people watching with thing, and therefore
:38:22. > :38:25.the end of your sentence would be, and that is why we should stay in,
:38:26. > :38:30.but you want to come out - why would you take such a risk? I think the
:38:31. > :38:35.negotiations over the next two years should be unique. We are the fifth
:38:36. > :38:41.or sixth biggest economy on earth. We ought to have a quality
:38:42. > :38:45.relationship with Europe for all the reasons that Nicola has said, and
:38:46. > :38:51.she's right, and at the same time reach out to the world. If it is
:38:52. > :38:55.achievable along with Philip Hammond's idea of feathering over
:38:56. > :39:01.the years, it is in Europe's interests. We need humility and less
:39:02. > :39:06.arrogance, but we have got to get there. Briefly, what is the
:39:07. > :39:12.nightmare, the fear, if we are not in the customs union? I believe it
:39:13. > :39:15.will be very detrimental to our economy, and also one thing: The
:39:16. > :39:22.fact of the matter is that Germany is in the EU. Germany does seven
:39:23. > :39:26.times as much trade with China as we do. The idea that the EU stops as
:39:27. > :39:30.trading with other countries is nonsense. A brief last sentence,
:39:31. > :39:37.Digby. The German example is rubbish. They dominate the EU and
:39:38. > :39:46.they use that as a way of enhancing their competitiveness in China. What
:39:47. > :39:49.is true, and you are right, that is coming out of the customs union done
:39:50. > :39:54.badly willed deny us the access we have spoken of, but done well, it
:39:55. > :39:59.will have the best of both worlds. Thank you both very much indeed.
:40:00. > :40:04.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:40:05. > :40:07.Coming up here in 20 minutes, The Week Ahead.
:40:08. > :40:21.First, though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:40:22. > :40:23.Hello and welcome to the London part of the show.
:40:24. > :40:26.There is only one story we are looking at today
:40:27. > :40:29.and of course that is the terrible fire at
:40:30. > :40:31.Grenfell Tower in Kensington, West London, that has claimed
:40:32. > :40:35.the lives of scores of victims and shaken the capital to its core.
:40:36. > :40:41.Who is to blame and what needs to be done to help rebuild this shattered
:40:42. > :40:43.community and ensure that this never happens again?
:40:44. > :40:45.Joining me to help answer some of those questions -
:40:46. > :40:49.Emma Dent Coad who only ten days ago won her seat to become
:40:50. > :40:53.the new Labour Member of Parliament for Kensington;
:40:54. > :40:57.Conservative MP for Bromley and Chislehurst Bob Neill who served
:40:58. > :41:00.as a Minister for Fire from 2010 to 2012 in the Cameron-led
:41:01. > :41:01.Coalition government, and Jim Fitzpatrick,
:41:02. > :41:04.Labour MP for Poplar and Limehouse, himself a former fireman for 20
:41:05. > :41:07.years and who has also served as Minister for London.
:41:08. > :41:10.Firstly, Emma, can I get your reaction, as the local MP,
:41:11. > :41:12.to the terrible events of early Wednesday morning
:41:13. > :41:22.Absolutely terrifying, and the worst thing for most of us is that this
:41:23. > :41:27.was clearly predicted and there have been concerns flagged up for many
:41:28. > :41:32.years by residents. As far as we can see, it was preventable, and that
:41:33. > :41:39.adds a whole new layer of horror to the event. Jim, you were a fireman,
:41:40. > :41:41.and you could go through endless training schedules and programmes
:41:42. > :41:48.but nothing could prepare you for this type of event? Know, and the
:41:49. > :41:52.best comment on that was from Danny Cotton, acting interim Commissioner
:41:53. > :41:58.of the Fire Service, who said that in her experience, she has never
:41:59. > :42:01.seen anything like it. It must have been absolutely shocking for the
:42:02. > :42:04.firefighters turning up, and I can't imagine what it was like for the
:42:05. > :42:10.victims. What is your reaction to the news? Above all, this is an
:42:11. > :42:14.appalling human tragedy and we have to reach out to the people who have
:42:15. > :42:18.suffered, who have lost family, possessions will stop Jim is also
:42:19. > :42:23.right to say, thank heavens for the professionalism of the Fire Service
:42:24. > :42:29.and the brave way in which Danny Cotton and her team responded to an
:42:30. > :42:32.extraordinary set of events. There are huge questions about whether or
:42:33. > :42:36.not this was preventable and what was done in the years gone by to try
:42:37. > :42:46.and stop this kind of thing happening. Jim, you were the fire
:42:47. > :42:50.minister from 2005 - 2006 - why didn't you ban plastic cladding? I
:42:51. > :42:54.don't know the answer to that question. That will be asked by the
:42:55. > :42:58.enquiry that has been set up. Everybody who has had any role at
:42:59. > :43:03.any level in local Government or central Government, be it an elected
:43:04. > :43:07.politician or a professional civil servant, we will be scrutinised, and
:43:08. > :43:11.these questions will be asked, and answers will have to be given. In
:43:12. > :43:17.2000, the House of Commons wrote a report saying that this particular
:43:18. > :43:22.type of cladding should be banned. There had been warnings. Do you
:43:23. > :43:26.recall from your time concerns being raised about this type of cladding,
:43:27. > :43:31.which seems to have been absolutely central to the spreading of this
:43:32. > :43:35.fire? I don't recall. It is over ten years ago, but there will be records
:43:36. > :43:40.and details of all the decisions that I took, and that will be open
:43:41. > :43:47.to complete scrutiny. What people want our answers to these questions
:43:48. > :43:51.-- people want answers to these questions and then there will be
:43:52. > :43:56.able to draw conclusions as to responsibility and culpability. We
:43:57. > :44:01.have seen some horrific pictures, charred black on the outside, and
:44:02. > :44:04.there is wide acceptance that the cladding filled with plastic is one
:44:05. > :44:15.of the reasons the fire spread so fast. There was a review in 2012
:44:16. > :44:20.after another tower block fire where people died in 2009 - what changed
:44:21. > :44:27.as a result of that fire under your watch?
:44:28. > :44:33.I made sure my chief fire adviser gave evidence to the inquest, the
:44:34. > :44:38.inquest reported after I left government but I do know my
:44:39. > :44:41.successor wrote to all housing providers and local authorities,
:44:42. > :44:48.drawing attention to the inquest findings, and also guidance was
:44:49. > :44:51.issued in 2014 on fighting fires in high-rise buildings. Plastic
:44:52. > :44:56.cladding was banned in Germany in the 1980s, do you remember from your
:44:57. > :45:02.time there that this is an appalling hazard and something should be done
:45:03. > :45:06.about it? There is always discussion about changing technology, but types
:45:07. > :45:12.of cladding change rapidly sometimes so you do need to be getting
:45:13. > :45:16.technical guidance to update the recommendations. It is one thing the
:45:17. > :45:19.public inquiry will have to look at, whether the recommendations were
:45:20. > :45:26.adequate, but also whether the work was done in accordance with existing
:45:27. > :45:29.recommendations. Philip Hammond kept mentioning the public inquiry on the
:45:30. > :45:33.Andrew Marr Show, but it will take some time to find the evidence of
:45:34. > :45:47.what happened here and we want answers before then. In 2009 after
:45:48. > :45:50.the Lakanal House fire, "It is recommended high-rise buildings
:45:51. > :45:55.consider the retrofitting of sprinkler systems", do you remember
:45:56. > :46:01.anyone ever coming to you saying that tower blocks should be retrofit
:46:02. > :46:04.with sprinkler systems? The recommendations from the coroner
:46:05. > :46:10.came after I left office but my successor did write drawing that
:46:11. > :46:15.recommendation to the attention of local authorities. The thing about
:46:16. > :46:17.the inquiry is this, the Government have made it clear we want an
:46:18. > :46:23.interim report quickly because people do need answers, so we need a
:46:24. > :46:27.detailed inquiry but we should be able to get an interim report
:46:28. > :46:34.answering some of those immediate questions as soon as possible. Emma,
:46:35. > :46:38.does that satisfy you? Not entirely. I wrote a letter to Amber bride
:46:39. > :46:43.which is widely available and we have made a number of points which
:46:44. > :46:49.we need to be addressed. They are all here in my letter, certain
:46:50. > :46:53.issues about dealing with the survivors now, and how they are to
:46:54. > :46:59.be housed and looked after and help must be available 24/ seven. We are
:47:00. > :47:03.still hearing stories of people not being allocated properly. There is
:47:04. > :47:06.one woman and her child who have been moved three times since
:47:07. > :47:11.Wednesday into different accommodation which is appalling. It
:47:12. > :47:14.will come onto the political response and whether it was adequate
:47:15. > :47:19.later but let's talk about safety and what could have been done before
:47:20. > :47:24.this happened. You were on the Housing scrutiny committee at
:47:25. > :47:28.Kensington and Chelsea, a long-term Council there, did anyone ever raise
:47:29. > :47:33.with you the issue of sprinkler safety? I have never heard it being
:47:34. > :47:38.discussed in relation... There is a claim it was offered to the
:47:39. > :47:42.residents of Grenfell Tower and they had refused it, and I've spoken to
:47:43. > :47:48.them and they say it was never refused. The issue of Grenfell Tower
:47:49. > :47:54.when it was on the board which I left in 2012 was that it was in a
:47:55. > :47:59.bad condition, the heating and hot water was constantly failing, people
:48:00. > :48:02.were concerned about the electrics and Windows were leaking. The
:48:03. > :48:07.refurbishment was welcomed to a certain extent but how it was done
:48:08. > :48:13.was decided after me. The committee system on the council, it is a
:48:14. > :48:17.scrutiny system, we don't make the decisions, and as a minority party
:48:18. > :48:22.councillor you can ask all the questions you like, if there is a
:48:23. > :48:28.vote which there is very rarely, it isn't in our hands. The Cabinet
:48:29. > :48:34.member signs it off, he has to be content. Jim, is it acceptable that
:48:35. > :48:38.only 1% of tower blocks have sprinklers fitted? When we know from
:48:39. > :48:42.the Fire Brigades Union no one has ever died in Britain in a tower
:48:43. > :48:49.blocks that was properly fitted with a sprinkler system. Sprinklers are
:48:50. > :48:52.very effective way of controlling fires and mostly extinguishing
:48:53. > :48:57.fires, certainly preventing them from spreading and allowing the fire
:48:58. > :49:02.brigade time to turn up which is why sprinklers are an attractive option,
:49:03. > :49:04.but of course the media has concentrated a lot on sprinklers and
:49:05. > :49:11.the firefighter response and praising that, that is the tip of
:49:12. > :49:14.the iceberg. This goes back to the building regulations and the
:49:15. > :49:18.appropriate specification of materials, the quality of work
:49:19. > :49:21.undertaken, the inspection of the work once it is completed to make
:49:22. > :49:28.sure it passes muster, the maintenance of the building, and has
:49:29. > :49:34.been raising that, and if that is done properly we don't get to a
:49:35. > :49:39.fire. If we don't get the fire, we don't need sprinklers and
:49:40. > :49:43.firefighters can go around educating people about fire, fitting smoke
:49:44. > :49:47.detectors and making sure people are aware of the dangers. So sprinklers
:49:48. > :49:51.are important, they do save lives and we should have more deployment
:49:52. > :49:57.of sprinklers, and I am positive it will be one of the major
:49:58. > :50:01.recommendations of this committee. People want answers as to why the
:50:02. > :50:06.sprinklers weren't there in the first place. Your successor Brandon
:50:07. > :50:09.Lewis said in 2014 we believe it is the responsibility of the fire
:50:10. > :50:18.industry rather than the Government to market fire sprinkler systems.
:50:19. > :50:23.The cost of fitting a sprinkler system may affect house building
:50:24. > :50:35.which we want to encourage. Does that strike you as an appalling
:50:36. > :50:39.abdication of responsibility? To say it is a responsibility of the fire
:50:40. > :50:43.industry rather than the Government to market sprinkler systems
:50:44. > :50:47.properly, coming after a tragedy in 2009 which was followed by a coroner
:50:48. > :50:50.'s report that concluded sprinkler systems should be retrofitted
:50:51. > :50:56.everywhere. That is the responsibility of the Government to
:50:57. > :50:58.set safety standards, the products are produced by the private sector
:50:59. > :51:03.and that is the point Brandon was making but we do need to make sure
:51:04. > :51:07.those products are available. It is a complex matter, sprinklers have a
:51:08. > :51:11.great role to play but they don't necessarily answer every problem and
:51:12. > :51:16.that is why in this inquiry we need to find out what happened back to
:51:17. > :51:21.the root cause. But we don't need it to report before we get a sense and
:51:22. > :51:25.an answer from you over whether it is the Government's responsibility
:51:26. > :51:30.to make sure sprinklers are retrofitted. Brandon Lewis' quote is
:51:31. > :51:35.saying it is responsibility of the fire industry rather than the
:51:36. > :51:38.Government. Actually what the Government did was to draw the
:51:39. > :51:44.attention of the coroner 's recommendation specifically to every
:51:45. > :51:47.provider of social housing across the country and they have the
:51:48. > :51:51.responsibility to fit those if they wish to do so. We need to consider
:51:52. > :51:56.whether we should revisit the strength of that guidance. I want to
:51:57. > :52:05.get another take on this. On Friday, our reporter
:52:06. > :52:07.Tanjil Rashid asked David Lammy, Labour MP for Tottenham,
:52:08. > :52:09.about the loss of a close Kadija and her family
:52:10. > :52:16.remind me of my family in the '70s - poor, working-class, to
:52:17. > :52:18.some extent vulnerable You've heard that the residents
:52:19. > :52:21.were complaining to the TMO, and their complaints
:52:22. > :52:24.were falling on deaf ears. We have got to reassess
:52:25. > :52:32.the truth of what it needs We have got to reassess
:52:33. > :52:34.the truth of what it means to be living in social housing, how
:52:35. > :52:38.hard it is to get any remedy when things go wrong, the conditions
:52:39. > :52:40.in which you live. Do you think we need to end social
:52:41. > :52:43.housing in tower blocks? Is that something
:52:44. > :52:46.that needs to change? Of course, there are tower blocks
:52:47. > :52:48.in London for the very wealthy. They have external fire escapes
:52:49. > :52:52.as well as internal ones, they have sprinkler systems, many
:52:53. > :52:54.lifts, there are many Unless you are prepared to bring
:52:55. > :52:59.public housing up to those standards, then it seems to me
:53:00. > :53:02.that we need to move away from those '70s tower blocks,
:53:03. > :53:05.we need to demolish them, to house people in different
:53:06. > :53:09.circumstances in the city. After almost a decade
:53:10. > :53:15.of austerity in this country, we need to
:53:16. > :53:18.bring the state back. I'm not sure that we want
:53:19. > :53:21.arm's-length organisations that don't take responsibility
:53:22. > :53:24.for the people who live in their buildings, who don't
:53:25. > :53:27.take their concerns seriously, who don't understand
:53:28. > :53:31.what it means if the lift breaks down that you've got to get 22
:53:32. > :53:34.floors up to the top, who don't understand
:53:35. > :53:39.what it's like living in the to the top, who don't understand
:53:40. > :53:43.what it's like living if the stairwells are occupied by drug
:53:44. > :53:45.addicts during the evening and during the course of the day,
:53:46. > :53:48.where there are no fire hoses, no alarms, no sprinklers,
:53:49. > :53:50.where apparently fire doors are taken out
:53:51. > :53:52.but not put back in. Why does it take a fire
:53:53. > :53:56.to wake us up to the reality of what's
:53:57. > :54:11.happening in the city? David Lambie MP speaking to our
:54:12. > :54:15.reporter there. Emma Dent Coad, why are there different safety standards
:54:16. > :54:19.for the rich? There shouldn't be, and we are hearing the difference
:54:20. > :54:23.between guidance and regulation. Regulations have been pulled back,
:54:24. > :54:29.and this idea we have got to get rid of the red tape. The standards
:54:30. > :54:33.should be the same. Maintenance of Council and housing association
:54:34. > :54:37.homes over the years has been deteriorating. I have seen that. We
:54:38. > :54:42.are back to appalling conditions some people are living in and they
:54:43. > :54:46.are not safe, and it is down to maintenance and funding for the
:54:47. > :54:51.maintenance. Do you agree with David Lambie that all tower blocks without
:54:52. > :54:55.sprinkler systems fitted should be abolished and residents should be
:54:56. > :55:01.rehoused? I don't actually and most of my career I have spent as an
:55:02. > :55:06.architecture historian and critic and a lot of my friends have been
:55:07. > :55:12.writing about similar tower blocks in the past. If they are properly
:55:13. > :55:19.maintained, and they are built to maintain fire in each unit. We have
:55:20. > :55:23.that a few years ago, there was smoke damage but you could see it
:55:24. > :55:28.was completely maintained. That is how it should be. If there are fire
:55:29. > :55:31.doors, concrete frame buildings are incredibly safe but they must be
:55:32. > :55:36.maintained properly and they didn't refurbishment is they have to
:55:37. > :55:40.restore firebreaks. They are safe if they are maintained properly so why
:55:41. > :55:46.aren't we maintaining our social housing to the same level as private
:55:47. > :55:50.housing? Perhaps the issue is who is in charge. Jim, you spent many years
:55:51. > :55:54.as a government minister in Labour years, 20 years as a fireman before
:55:55. > :55:58.that. We seem to have a situation with ministers in charge of
:55:59. > :56:03.regulations, councils funding an arms length management company, and
:56:04. > :56:10.a management company paying the cheapest bidder for a refurbishment.
:56:11. > :56:16.As of the system designed to make it easy for people to pass the buck.
:56:17. > :56:25.That's one way of looking at it, but if the law is enforced, people don't
:56:26. > :56:28.get chance to pass the buck. As Bob said, we see new methods of
:56:29. > :56:33.construction being developed up all the time, new materials being used,
:56:34. > :56:38.other countries banning particular materials. We have to keep up with
:56:39. > :56:42.this, if we don't we fall behind at our peril. Who should take
:56:43. > :56:46.responsibility? Because a lot of people who are very angry about this
:56:47. > :56:50.tragedy, who are protesting on the streets, who called the Prime
:56:51. > :56:55.Minister a coward when she tried to visit the site, they are saying no
:56:56. > :57:02.one is taking responsibility. Who should take responsibility for the
:57:03. > :57:06.safety of tower blocks like Grenfell of which we know there are many
:57:07. > :57:09.others around the country? Ultimately we as parliamentarians
:57:10. > :57:18.do, the Government does, it is their job to lay regulations that have to
:57:19. > :57:23.be forced so the buck stops with government. People who die in fires
:57:24. > :57:28.have historically always been the poor, the sick, the disabled, people
:57:29. > :57:31.with addiction difficulties. The accommodation provided for them, if
:57:32. > :57:36.it is up to the appropriate standard, they are safe. We can
:57:37. > :57:40.improve safety all the time but we need to make sure the basics are
:57:41. > :57:46.there to protect people in their own homes. It failed in Grenfell Tower,
:57:47. > :57:52.the inquiry will demonstrate how the fire started. There was a scandal in
:57:53. > :57:55.London recently with white goods exploding, manufacturers have a
:57:56. > :57:59.responsibility to recall goods which are not fit for purpose as well.
:58:00. > :58:05.There are whole host of issues which have to be looked at. Hopefully the
:58:06. > :58:11.inquiry will point to that stuff. Let's turn to the political
:58:12. > :58:18.responsibility. Bob Neill, has Theresa May's response been good
:58:19. > :58:21.enough? I think Theresa May has accepted that overall the
:58:22. > :58:27.Government's response has not been good enough. Theresa May was widely
:58:28. > :58:31.criticised for not speaking to more of the victims and their families,
:58:32. > :58:37.only to servicemen, she has subsequently seen them in Downing
:58:38. > :58:41.Street. She then went on Newsnight, and spoke to Emily Maitlis where she
:58:42. > :58:46.was empathetic toward the suffering of people and has been roundly
:58:47. > :58:50.condemned in today's papers including Tory supporting papers, so
:58:51. > :58:55.has her response been good enough? She is not one of those people
:58:56. > :59:00.perhaps it shows emotion as openly as some of us do. Don't you think if
:59:01. > :59:06.you are Prime Minister you need to show an understanding? Watch did do,
:59:07. > :59:10.is she went there and have particular security advice as to
:59:11. > :59:13.whether it was helpful for a prime ministerial visit to the scene
:59:14. > :59:18.immediately but she sat down with people, and I saw her do that, in
:59:19. > :59:23.difficult situations one-to-one, and she is a woman who cares. The key
:59:24. > :59:29.thing now is to get this package of help is delivered for people. There
:59:30. > :59:33.were questions about the Prime Minister's authority, she ordered a
:59:34. > :59:38.stamp collection which resulted in a hung parliament. You are soft Brexit
:59:39. > :59:45.man, a Remainer, do you think her response to Grenfell Tower has
:59:46. > :59:49.further damaged her authority? I don't think it need do so. Some
:59:50. > :59:53.people are making political capital out of it, I want to get on with the
:59:54. > :59:57.job of government. The people who suffered in Grenfell Tower need
:59:58. > :00:01.that, they don't need speculation in newspapers. We need the Government
:00:02. > :00:08.getting on with this job on the key issues that confront the Government
:00:09. > :00:12.as a whole. Visit Bob Neill right to say we should be focusing on people
:00:13. > :00:19.who need most help and not politicising this issue?
:00:20. > :00:26.People want justice, not waffle. They want straight talking. They are
:00:27. > :00:29.not children and they want to be talked to as responsible human
:00:30. > :00:33.being. They have been talked down to four years and their concerns have
:00:34. > :00:38.been ignored. The very chain of events that happened was predicted.
:00:39. > :00:41.That's horrendous, and they were ignored, infantilised and not
:00:42. > :00:45.listened to. I won't have people talking down to the people who
:00:46. > :00:47.elected me. Let's hear what the Communities Secretary had to say
:00:48. > :00:51.about this this week. We will do whatever it takes,
:00:52. > :00:54.we will take the expert advice, do whatever it takes to make those
:00:55. > :00:57.buildings safe or make those people We have to be led by the experts,
:00:58. > :01:08.but there can be no short Jim Fitzpatrick, are you seriously
:01:09. > :01:11.asserting that Tory austerity is somehow to blame for this awful
:01:12. > :01:17.human tragedy, as some on the left that said? I haven't said that, but
:01:18. > :01:22.what is clearly worth examining, and I'm sure the enquiry will look at
:01:23. > :01:25.it, is whether or not, going back to our fundamental point about the
:01:26. > :01:30.maintenance of these buildings, the appropriate skills being deployed by
:01:31. > :01:34.the workers who have been doing the construction, the right materials
:01:35. > :01:36.being purchased that are at the right specification, all of these
:01:37. > :01:41.things will have to be looked at. There is a rapport I think in the
:01:42. > :01:44.Sunday Mirror this morning that the number of inspections in tower
:01:45. > :01:49.blocks carried out by the Fire Service is down 25% between 2010 and
:01:50. > :01:52.2017, so why has that been happening when the risk is as great if not
:01:53. > :01:55.greater because there are more people in the country? There are
:01:56. > :02:00.questions that will have to be answered. Whether or not it has a
:02:01. > :02:05.direct effect will be for the enquiry to determine. Emma, briefly.
:02:06. > :02:14.This issue has very little to do with austerity. The council has huge
:02:15. > :02:17.reserves and I have criticised them for not spending it. We have
:02:18. > :02:21.austerity across the country, and some in Kensington and Chelsea. The
:02:22. > :02:25.council has been squirrelling money away are not using it where it would
:02:26. > :02:30.be best used. After the financial crash, we spent aliens bailing out
:02:31. > :02:34.bankers, some is in the crucial lesson this week that we don't care
:02:35. > :02:38.when it is poor people? I don't think that is the case. We need to
:02:39. > :02:42.learn that it is not just enough to put in place laws and regulations,
:02:43. > :02:47.we must have an enforced properly, and that has to be done, regardless
:02:48. > :02:50.of where people live and regardless of their circumstances. That is an
:02:51. > :02:55.important point we need to get from this enquiry. I am glad to see that
:02:56. > :03:00.the Government has said it will pay for legal representation for the
:03:01. > :03:08.victims potter-mac families so that they can have their say, and that
:03:09. > :03:12.they will have a say in the scoping -- for the victims' family so that
:03:13. > :03:21.they can have their say. Thanks to all of you.
:03:22. > :03:25.Even if the inferno in London had never happened, this would have been
:03:26. > :03:29.The Brexit negotiations finally begin in Brussels tomorrow -
:03:30. > :03:33.will ministers change their position?
:03:34. > :03:35.The Queen's Speech, which had to be delayed,
:03:36. > :03:38.but can the Government get its legislative agenda
:03:39. > :03:59.Still with me, Steve, Julia and Tom. Steve, Brexit, as if it is just a
:04:00. > :04:05.small thing this week. We have heard from the Chancellor this morning and
:04:06. > :04:09.from Andrea Leadsom - do you detect a shift in Government debate or
:04:10. > :04:14.still alive -- in Government approach or still a lively debate?
:04:15. > :04:19.Philip Hammond now is in a stronger position than he could ever have
:04:20. > :04:23.dreams who would be in -- he would be an before the election result, so
:04:24. > :04:29.tonally, we have him now confidently saying that the focus must be on the
:04:30. > :04:33.economy, on having some kind of deal whereby there are not bureaucrats
:04:34. > :04:41.blocking the movement of goods and so on, but beyond that, it's not
:04:42. > :04:44.entirely clear how he plans to use this new political muscularity. I
:04:45. > :04:49.think that will become clearer as the talks begin, but at this point,
:04:50. > :04:54.it all still seems fairly vague. Labour's position and the
:04:55. > :05:04.Government's as these talks begin tomorrow. Don't you smell a rat? Do
:05:05. > :05:07.you think, I know what they are rock to, they wanted ter at the
:05:08. > :05:10.referendum? It is almost irrelevant what the Government says and what
:05:11. > :05:15.they are thinking of doing. What matters is what is on the table,
:05:16. > :05:19.hence the nonsense about soft Brexit and hard Brexit. Soc Brexit is not
:05:20. > :05:26.Brexit and hard Brexit is not an option. Guy the Hofstadter did the
:05:27. > :05:34.work of Nigel Farage last week when he said that we could remain but
:05:35. > :05:40.lose the rebate. Even a slow Brexit... No, no, at the end of
:05:41. > :05:45.March in 2019 we will be out of the EU. That is what happens. There is a
:05:46. > :05:52.question of transition deals, which is fine. But we do not know which
:05:53. > :05:55.Government will be in power at the time, but will they obey the will of
:05:56. > :06:02.the people as expressed in the EU referendum, which is out of the free
:06:03. > :06:09.market, no free movement? This argument is irrelevant, I think.
:06:10. > :06:12.Tom, has a lot changed? Remit yes. The first compromise the Government
:06:13. > :06:16.made on Friday, which was almost unreported on Friday because we had
:06:17. > :06:19.so much more to talk about, Grenfell Tower being the major one, but the
:06:20. > :06:24.Government agreed to go by the EU timetable, which is to sort out the
:06:25. > :06:33.divorce and then move the trade deal. The other thing that changed
:06:34. > :06:40.is the composition of the House of Commons. There is no majority for
:06:41. > :06:44.Theresa May's version of Brexit. I think the area where there will be
:06:45. > :06:48.room for manoeuvre is immigration. It won't be the customs union. There
:06:49. > :06:54.will be an argument about the relationship, but it will be to
:06:55. > :07:03.soften up this call from Theresa May for immigration controls. Jobs first
:07:04. > :07:08.is a change in the Government position, isn't it? Tom is right
:07:09. > :07:13.about immigration. I was told that the decision to include student
:07:14. > :07:16.numbers in the immigration total was her view and hers alone. I think
:07:17. > :07:24.that will be dropped now, because the Cabinet feels strong enough to
:07:25. > :07:27.assert their different view. Every single member of that cabinet I am
:07:28. > :07:32.told apart from her did not want that. There is an example of
:07:33. > :07:37.refocusing. At the moment, it is not clear where that will lead. The
:07:38. > :07:46.talks will begin, I think, in an messy way. -- in a messy way. I have
:07:47. > :07:54.spoken to Tory MPs on the Remain site who wonder if we won't still be
:07:55. > :08:00.in in 2019. It is not possible. The legal process has begun. We are out
:08:01. > :08:05.of the EU at the end of that period. Transition could mean it feels very
:08:06. > :08:11.like we are still in. All this talk about compromise and so on, it is
:08:12. > :08:16.between members of the Cabinet and UK political parties. What matters
:08:17. > :08:22.is what is on the table and how the British people react. During these
:08:23. > :08:32.talks, the Government will have to compromise if they don't get to have
:08:33. > :08:36.their cake and eat it. Brexit will be soft. Do you think there is
:08:37. > :08:42.arithmetic that will bring a dramatic change? Bhui report this as
:08:43. > :08:49.internal machinations in the Tory Party in the Cabinet. It is what you
:08:50. > :08:59.can get through. We report this. She framed this election as a mandate
:09:00. > :09:09.for her version of Brexit. When she didn't get that mandate, I know it
:09:10. > :09:13.has become a cliche could, -- it has become a cliche, but she did not get
:09:14. > :09:16.the mandate cheese. Let's move on to the Queen's speech. That would be a
:09:17. > :09:21.huge story if it were not for fire and Brexit. This is a Government
:09:22. > :09:31.without a majority vote of Andrea Leadsom said, we are just elating
:09:32. > :09:36.next year's Queen's speech. Do you buy that? There will not be won
:09:37. > :09:47.because they do not know whether they will have the numbers to
:09:48. > :09:50.support it. Also, one Queen's speech and the Parliament business will be
:09:51. > :09:55.taken up by the Great Repeal Bill. There will be no legislative time
:09:56. > :10:06.left for the remnants left Theresa May's manifesto. She feels this
:10:07. > :10:12.desperate need to try. There will be a housing will, no doubt and one or
:10:13. > :10:16.two other things. Other things are dead in the water, grammar schools,
:10:17. > :10:23.for example. Some of the more interventionist policies are forever
:10:24. > :10:26.gone. Some people might well come an end to the ongoing new legislation
:10:27. > :10:30.about every topic which does not make anyone's life better. We don't
:10:31. > :10:33.know the details of the deal with the DUP, but we know it will be
:10:34. > :10:38.focused some of it on Northern Ireland itself. There is a chance
:10:39. > :10:46.that they see themselves as fighting austerity in the UK. You can't just
:10:47. > :10:51.have a set of policies for Northern Ireland to keep the DUP on board
:10:52. > :11:01.which will not apply if they seem rather rosy and benevolent to the
:11:02. > :11:05.rest of the UK. The Barnett Formula requires more spending in Wales and
:11:06. > :11:08.Scotland if you increase it for Northern Ireland. It is that
:11:09. > :11:19.whatever is spent in England, there are ramifications for the other
:11:20. > :11:22.nations of the UK. They are close to impotence, and the only question
:11:23. > :11:25.that will be asked is, can we get this through? Therefore, they will
:11:26. > :11:29.get it through because they won't put anything in that could be
:11:30. > :11:36.defeated. A last thought about the fire, then. However much we say
:11:37. > :11:41.these events are bigger, I have a feeling that the fire will dominate
:11:42. > :11:46.when MPs gather. Have ministers done enough, and have Labour done enough
:11:47. > :11:50.to do themselves from some of the protests, to avoid some of the
:11:51. > :11:56.political risks involved? In the short term, Downing Street is
:11:57. > :12:00.beginning to do enough. The Prime Minister is meeting relatives every
:12:01. > :12:02.day now, which is beginning to abate the political crisis. The great mess
:12:03. > :12:10.that will continue is that Labour have managed to turn this into an
:12:11. > :12:14.anti-austerity issue, and that will live on. The organisation has been
:12:15. > :12:18.appalling. This is about poor people's lives, at the end of the
:12:19. > :12:23.day. The way it has been politicised they think is completely wrong. It
:12:24. > :12:29.also raises questions about who is responsible for what. The instinct
:12:30. > :12:33.is to blame Theresa May for the whole lot, something that wouldn't
:12:34. > :12:37.have happened two months ago. What about the role of the local
:12:38. > :12:43.authority? What about the invisibility of the local authority
:12:44. > :12:48.afterwards? Which bit of our Government is responsible for what
:12:49. > :12:52.is? That is the cause of many crises in this country. It is ruled by
:12:53. > :13:01.committee and the bug doesn't stop with anyone. I thought, in many
:13:02. > :13:04.ways, for those of us in our line of work, as it were, the most painful
:13:05. > :13:11.question beyond the horrible human tragedy was to hear people say, we
:13:12. > :13:19.don't know who to ask. That was a failure by the local council. And
:13:20. > :13:23.you put it to Andrea Leadsom. I don't think making it the Prime
:13:24. > :13:25.Minister will reassure people. Thank you all very much indeed.
:13:26. > :13:29.The Daily Politics will be back on BBC Two at noon tomorrow,
:13:30. > :13:32.and Andrew will be back here at the same time next week.
:13:33. > :13:35.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.