:00:39. > :00:44.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:45. > :00:49.After the Grenfell Tower disaster, 34 tower blocks in 17 council areas
:00:50. > :00:52.in England have failed emergency fire safety tests, but not
:00:53. > :00:54.every building that fails will be evacuated.
:00:55. > :01:00.The government promises Britain will be a strong global
:01:01. > :01:03.trading power after Brexit, as negotiations get under way,
:01:04. > :01:06.we'll ask the international trade minister how.
:01:07. > :01:10.As Jeremy Corbyn celebrates his new rock-star status
:01:11. > :01:15.with a trip to Glastonbury, will the Labour leader
:01:16. > :01:20.use his new appeal to strengthen his grip on the party?
:01:21. > :01:23.In London, after the Grenfell Tower fire in Kensington and the series
:01:24. > :01:25.of terror attacks - what can be done to restore
:01:26. > :01:37.And with me throughout, our own supergroup of political
:01:38. > :01:40.pundits who'll be wowing the crowds throughout the programme,
:01:41. > :01:41.Helen Lewis, Tim Shipman and Isabel Oakeshott.
:01:42. > :01:45.They'll also be tweeting using the hashtag bbcsp.
:01:46. > :01:47.First, though, the government has confirmed that over 30 tower blocks
:01:48. > :01:52.across England have now failed an emergency fire safety test,
:01:53. > :01:54.following the Grenfall Tower disaster in which 79 people
:01:55. > :02:02.According to the government the cladding from 34 tower blocks
:02:03. > :02:06.has been tested and all of them have failed the combustibility test.
:02:07. > :02:10.The government plans to examine up to
:02:11. > :02:14.600 blocks and claim they can test 100 a day.
:02:15. > :02:17.The areas affected so far include Manchester, Plymouth and Portsmouth
:02:18. > :02:21.as well as the London boroughs of Barnet, Brent, Camden
:02:22. > :02:25.and Hounslow; all the relevant landlords and fire services
:02:26. > :02:30.Camden has already evacuated residents from
:02:31. > :02:35.650 flats whilst other councils have introduced interim measures such
:02:36. > :02:37.as 24-hour fire warden patrols to mitigate the risk before
:02:38. > :02:48.When you look at the national scale of this, this goes beyond austerity
:02:49. > :02:54.and finger-pointing at individual councils, this is a clear national
:02:55. > :02:57.system failure for the country. I'm surprised the response has been as
:02:58. > :03:02.muted as it has been, and initially there was a huge response. It is
:03:03. > :03:06.striking how every single building they test seems to fail these
:03:07. > :03:09.regulations, so people are slightly confused about whether this is the
:03:10. > :03:14.regulations at fault or the cladding that is at fault and I think what is
:03:15. > :03:18.most alarming to people, the insecurity. Some people have been
:03:19. > :03:22.told to evacuate and that is what happened in Camden and they were
:03:23. > :03:25.told until late at night. It is difficult for people to take pets
:03:26. > :03:30.outcome and other people have been told to stay in the commendation
:03:31. > :03:34.that may or may not be flammable. They have put fire wardens in
:03:35. > :03:40.instead. There is a problem that people feel this is a problem about
:03:41. > :03:44.social housing but not all of these are about social housing, but about
:03:45. > :03:49.the neglect to people that several successive governments have shown.
:03:50. > :03:53.People will wonder why the building regulations allow or the building
:03:54. > :03:58.regulations were flouted in a way that allowed so much inflammable
:03:59. > :04:02.material to clad our buildings. If you look in other countries,
:04:03. > :04:08.America, Germany, some of this is banned, and some people said some of
:04:09. > :04:11.the stuff has been put up in this country has also been banned and
:04:12. > :04:15.this shows what a disaster housing policy has been in this country for
:04:16. > :04:21.a generation. Neither party has been able to get a grip on it. There are
:04:22. > :04:25.several failures of the Tory council but Labour was in charge of putting
:04:26. > :04:28.this stuff into housing associations, where the controls
:04:29. > :04:32.have not been very good over long period, and what we need to do is
:04:33. > :04:35.build more homes and every government announces they are going
:04:36. > :04:40.to build more homes. Hopefully using the right material. Yes, but none of
:04:41. > :04:45.these governors have been able to build enough homes and we have a
:04:46. > :04:48.crisis of stock where people are put into houses like battery hens,
:04:49. > :04:53.frankly, in places where most people would not want to take a second
:04:54. > :04:57.look. Looking at Grenfell Tower, if that had not been clad, if they had
:04:58. > :05:02.kept the old concrete facade committee would not have gone up in
:05:03. > :05:07.fire. This has been a failure of government with a small G, national
:05:08. > :05:13.and local, Labour and Conservatives. Absolutely. It is not just about
:05:14. > :05:16.residential accommodation, hospitals might have this material, I'm
:05:17. > :05:20.hearing, and schools. Politically the challenge for the government,
:05:21. > :05:26.there is a huge logistical and humanitarian challenge but also the
:05:27. > :05:29.politics of it, as you rightly say, that this isn't just something which
:05:30. > :05:35.is linked directly to Tory austerity. The government now, the
:05:36. > :05:40.initial shock has worn off, and the challenge for the government is to
:05:41. > :05:42.make it clear that this is not just their direct responsibility and the
:05:43. > :05:48.result of the Tory cuts agenda and there are plenty of Labour councils
:05:49. > :05:52.who also have responsibility. Given the national crisis and the national
:05:53. > :05:57.failure, the government needs to be seen to get a grip on this.
:05:58. > :06:02.Absolutely. Most MPs would say they... Their response has been
:06:03. > :06:06.slightly more convincing than it was early on, but there are still huge
:06:07. > :06:09.potential for this to snowball especially if we have other
:06:10. > :06:14.buildings, not just residential, affected. There has been a change in
:06:15. > :06:18.the national mood, you see this in the Conservative Party. The word
:06:19. > :06:23.austerity was barely mentioned. Philip Hammond has relaxed his
:06:24. > :06:26.targets. Local councils bore the brunt of the cuts and they won't
:06:27. > :06:28.take any more, there is that sense, the people are tired of that.
:06:29. > :06:33.Indeed. OK. The Government says it will deliver
:06:34. > :06:35.a Brexit deal which will allow the UK to become a powerful global
:06:36. > :06:38.trading nation with the EU This morning the Brexit Secretary,
:06:39. > :06:42.David Davis, told the BBC he was certain he'd be able to get
:06:43. > :06:46.a good trade deal with Brussels, in part because of pressure
:06:47. > :06:50.from businesses within the EU. I mean it's not just
:06:51. > :06:53.the German car industry, it's Bavarian farmers,
:06:54. > :06:55.French farmers, Italian white goods manufacturers,
:06:56. > :06:59.you name it. The balance of trade basically
:07:00. > :07:02.is 230 billion from us to them, They have a very strong interest
:07:03. > :07:11.in getting a good deal, at the end of the day,
:07:12. > :07:14.on all sides on trade. And I've been joined
:07:15. > :07:18.by the Trade Minister Mark Price. Welcome to the programme. There are
:07:19. > :07:21.five main national business organisations in Britain and all of
:07:22. > :07:27.them want minimal custom checks after Brexit between the UK and the
:07:28. > :07:31.EU, how can you do that if we are leaving the customs union? There's a
:07:32. > :07:36.difference between the customs union and the customs arrangements. It is
:07:37. > :07:43.not that binary, you are not either in or out, you can work which with
:07:44. > :07:47.ever party you want, you have customs arrangements, which work to
:07:48. > :07:52.the benefit of business. That would need to cover all of the EU? You
:07:53. > :07:57.can't do that in bilateral business with members of the EU, it needs to
:07:58. > :08:01.be all of them? The negotiations will be with the commission and they
:08:02. > :08:05.will work on behalf of all EU members. I attend the trade
:08:06. > :08:09.ministers meeting and I've been four times since Brexit, and the mood is
:08:10. > :08:14.very positive about the relationship they want with the UK going forward.
:08:15. > :08:18.We have frictionless trade by being in the customs union at the moment,
:08:19. > :08:23.you can import into this country, and then they go seamlessly to the
:08:24. > :08:27.rest of the EU because everything coming into the EU comes in on the
:08:28. > :08:32.same terms, but if we are not in the customs union any more, how can you
:08:33. > :08:36.have that frictionless trade? You look at Harris first of all, and at
:08:37. > :08:40.the moment we are tariff free, but if you look at the arrangement like
:08:41. > :08:52.the Canadian trade Guild, it is 98% tariff free, -- the trade deal. The
:08:53. > :08:57.Canadian deal is not a customs deal. What I'm asking you is about the
:08:58. > :09:02.stuff coming into Britain which at the moment can then go seamlessly to
:09:03. > :09:06.the rest of the EU, and will not be able to do so if we are not in the
:09:07. > :09:14.customs union. I'm trying to explain the preconditions for having a
:09:15. > :09:25.customs arrangements, the first is, can tariff the parable of the -- the
:09:26. > :09:30.first is tariff, and then at the moment we take 56% of our goods from
:09:31. > :09:34.outside the EU. We have electronic passing of documentation and I'm
:09:35. > :09:38.told that 96% will go through within six seconds, and so we are not a
:09:39. > :09:42.novice to this and we all be do this with countries all over the world.
:09:43. > :09:48.We trade with 163 countries around the world, we are not building from
:09:49. > :09:52.no experience and no base. We have a place that we are working from. To
:09:53. > :09:55.do it sector by sector could take a long wire which is maybe why the
:09:56. > :10:01.Chancellor is now talking about a transitional period for single
:10:02. > :10:04.market access may be membership, and the customs union, how long a
:10:05. > :10:13.transition period are we looking at? Who knows. We will see how we get
:10:14. > :10:18.on. One year, two years? Who knows. From the European and UK perspective
:10:19. > :10:21.we want a smooth transition and this is what trade ministers are saying
:10:22. > :10:25.across Europe, this is not just a British desire. I have heard
:10:26. > :10:28.interviews with several European parliamentarians who say they want
:10:29. > :10:31.to move to a smooth transition and they would like a period of time to
:10:32. > :10:37.do that if we can't do that inside the initial period. Will we be able
:10:38. > :10:42.to make free trade deals with countries outside the EU in this
:10:43. > :10:46.transition period? We have a host of arrangements at the moment, but it
:10:47. > :10:51.is not that simple. With the EU we are party to about 40 trade deals by
:10:52. > :10:55.the time we go, and we will work with those countries to transition
:10:56. > :11:02.them. But in the transition period, can we make a free-trade deal with
:11:03. > :11:05.America or China? Can we do that? We have set up nine working groups at
:11:06. > :11:09.the moment with 15 different countries and what we are working
:11:10. > :11:12.through is how do we make sure when we leave the EU that the current
:11:13. > :11:17.arrangements that we have are carried forward, Liam Fox last week
:11:18. > :11:20.was in America and there are 20 agreements with America. We can talk
:11:21. > :11:24.about the current trading relationship, how do we make things
:11:25. > :11:28.better for our businesses in those countries in the way that customs
:11:29. > :11:31.work and the way their businesses are handled and then we can start
:11:32. > :11:37.thinking about how do we shape a future deal. In a transition period,
:11:38. > :11:44.can we strike a free-trade deal with a third party? No, we can't. We
:11:45. > :11:50.can't sign or negotiate. During the transition period? This is during
:11:51. > :11:54.the two-year period, but in the transition period that depends what
:11:55. > :11:59.we agree with the EU. Businesses want tariff free trade to continue
:12:00. > :12:07.between the EU and the UK. What indications have you had that the EU
:12:08. > :12:14.will agree to this? Businesses who want tariff free trade to continue.
:12:15. > :12:18.Between the UK and the EU. In all the discussion that I've had with
:12:19. > :12:22.trade ministers, and I've spoken to them all over the last year, there
:12:23. > :12:30.is a great appetite to impose tariffs where none exist today and
:12:31. > :12:33.as I've mentioned, the Canadian deal is 98% tariff free but also today,
:12:34. > :12:37.what we have said, we will make sure that for the least developed
:12:38. > :12:41.country, 48 of them, we give them preferential access to the UK, no
:12:42. > :12:49.tariffs or rotors, and there's another group of countries that we
:12:50. > :12:54.give reduced access to as well. What about tariff free trade between the
:12:55. > :12:59.EU and the UK? I think they will be keen to give us that. But no yes,
:13:00. > :13:04.despite all these meetings. We have got to sit down and negotiate, but
:13:05. > :13:08.the spirit is a good one. People in Europe want to get into a good place
:13:09. > :13:18.with us, why? Because the trade surplus with the UK is... I know all
:13:19. > :13:22.the reasons. Euro France only runs a surplus with four countries and we
:13:23. > :13:27.are one of them. So the indications are good? Yes, around the world,
:13:28. > :13:36.since Brexit, I visited 31 countries and I've met with 70 ministers and I
:13:37. > :13:44.have seen this. Let me come onto immigration. Businesses have also
:13:45. > :13:50.called for a flexible system of skills and Labour, so what system do
:13:51. > :13:54.you imagine? You have heard from the government that we don't want to
:13:55. > :13:57.harm our economy, and in Europe we have heard very loud and clear that
:13:58. > :14:03.people want to be able to source the right people for their businesses.
:14:04. > :14:08.What will the system be? Tomorrow the Prime Minister is going to make
:14:09. > :14:13.an announcement. That is about EU citizens already here, but what will
:14:14. > :14:18.the broad principles be under which people from the EU can come here to
:14:19. > :14:21.work? That will be in the paper that will be set up, we have the
:14:22. > :14:26.immigration bill coming forward, but we don't want to harm the UK
:14:27. > :14:31.economy. What is the priority? In your manifesto you had a policy of
:14:32. > :14:35.reducing net migration to the tens of thousands, so what is the
:14:36. > :14:41.priority, hitting Matt Targett or a system that meets the flexible needs
:14:42. > :14:45.of the economy? -- that target. It is a difficult call. I would say
:14:46. > :14:50.meeting the needs of the economy are hugely important. What is more
:14:51. > :14:54.important? The part of the jigsaw that is missing is what happens to
:14:55. > :14:58.the shape of the Labour force in the UK as we move into the digital
:14:59. > :15:05.error. The British consortium have said they will need 900,000 fewer
:15:06. > :15:08.workers in retail in ten years' time in every industry is being reshaped,
:15:09. > :15:14.and to take a point in time and say this is right... I'm asking for a
:15:15. > :15:17.general principle, what is more important, hitting the target or
:15:18. > :15:23.keeping immigration that is flexible to the economy? If you asked me as a
:15:24. > :15:26.businessman, for 30 years, I would say it is through the success of
:15:27. > :15:31.business and the success of our economy that we can afford the
:15:32. > :15:34.social services that we want. As a government minister we need to work
:15:35. > :15:37.through over the course of the next 2-3 years, but Bill through
:15:38. > :15:42.Parliament and decide where we get to, we have said there is a target
:15:43. > :15:46.of tens of thousands, and my personal view, given the digital
:15:47. > :15:52.changes, that is a perfectly reasonable target for us.
:15:53. > :15:58.Business says what they really need is clarity. One year after we voted
:15:59. > :16:03.to leave, what clarity have you brought to these issues this
:16:04. > :16:08.morning? That is a very good question. I think we have set out
:16:09. > :16:12.the principles. You cannot tell me the principles of immigration, the
:16:13. > :16:17.principles on which the customs union will operate, or the economy
:16:18. > :16:22.or hitting a target will be more important for immigration. The Prime
:16:23. > :16:26.Minister has set out what we intend to achieve. Through the Queen's
:16:27. > :16:31.speech will bring a different bills that address these issues. They will
:16:32. > :16:35.be there for Parliament to discuss, there will be consultation papers
:16:36. > :16:41.and business can be involved with that. We will be consulting and
:16:42. > :16:46.there will be a vote. That is process. I'm afraid we have run out
:16:47. > :16:51.of time, but that is processed. What you want us to do is to be able to
:16:52. > :16:57.say this is definitively what we will be able to get, but there are
:16:58. > :17:02.two site. If I was buying a business in Waitrose, I couldn't tell you
:17:03. > :17:09.what the outcome would be. I was simply asking what the Government's
:17:10. > :17:11.aim was. That has clearly been set out by the Prime Minister. Thank
:17:12. > :17:14.you. Jeremy Corbyn confounded his critics
:17:15. > :17:16.in the general election, increasing Labour's share
:17:17. > :17:18.of the vote and securing So will the Corbynistas use
:17:19. > :17:22.the result to strengthen Our reporter Emma Vardy
:17:23. > :17:24.has been finding out. Enjoying superstar
:17:25. > :17:29.status at Glastonbury. Since when did being
:17:30. > :17:33.a politician become this cool? Do you know, politics is actually
:17:34. > :17:39.about everyday life. It's about all of us
:17:40. > :17:42.and what we dream and what we want and what we achieve and what we want
:17:43. > :17:45.for everybody else. # Staying out for the summer,
:17:46. > :17:54.playing games in the rain It's looking like the summer
:17:55. > :18:04.of love for Jeremy Corbyn. As he basks in his post-election
:18:05. > :18:08.glow, well, as much as you can bask So, is all that bitter infighting
:18:09. > :18:14.in the party a distant memory Jeremy will stay the Labour leader
:18:15. > :18:23.now as long as he wants to do so. He's come back from the dead
:18:24. > :18:25.in terms of the predictions and so he will remain Labour leader
:18:26. > :18:31.for as long as he wants. Let's recognise that another world
:18:32. > :18:41.is possible if we come together. Former Corbyn critics like John Mann
:18:42. > :18:44.MP have been eating humble pie. The big issue for Jeremy now is,
:18:45. > :18:47.is he going to hold his people in and stop any factional battling
:18:48. > :18:50.in the Labour Party, and there are people on both
:18:51. > :18:52.sides of the old divide in the Labour Party who love nothing
:18:53. > :18:56.better than internal wrangling. Or is he going to consolidate his
:18:57. > :18:59.position and bring the Labour Party together and be a potential
:19:00. > :19:03.Prime Minister in waiting? The centrist Labour group Progress
:19:04. > :19:06.which had been associated with some of Corbyn's harshest critics says
:19:07. > :19:08.now the party is more In the general election,
:19:09. > :19:28.the Labour Party worked together, Labour MPs put their strongest foot
:19:29. > :19:30.forward in getting re-elected in their seats the national campaign
:19:31. > :19:33.pulled through and party staff We have shown that when we pull
:19:34. > :19:37.together we are a strong force. # Staying out for the summer,
:19:38. > :19:40.staying up for the summer #. Before the election,
:19:41. > :19:42.a number of party rule changes had been up for debate as pro and
:19:43. > :19:45.anti-Corbyn factions looked for ways So has all that now being kicked
:19:46. > :19:49.into the long grass? Any attempts to try and undermine
:19:50. > :19:52.Tom Watson as deputy leader, appoint a second deputy leader,
:19:53. > :19:54.attack the party staff, change the party rules,
:19:55. > :19:56.will show the public out there that the Labour Party is more
:19:57. > :19:59.interested in itself rather But will also put at risk that
:20:00. > :20:03.unity, that is fragile and quite frankly now,
:20:04. > :20:07.is led from the top. The way in which internal
:20:08. > :20:12.hostilities would recommend The way in which internal
:20:13. > :20:15.hostilities would recommence would be if there was a return
:20:16. > :20:18.to some of the sectarianism that we So if there were attempts
:20:19. > :20:22.to deselect MPs and councillors, those MPs and councillors
:20:23. > :20:24.are going to fight If there are attempts to cross
:20:25. > :20:32.a limited number of policy red lines on things like Trident renewal,
:20:33. > :20:34.again that would cause And if there are attempts to change
:20:35. > :20:44.the rule book of the party in a way that just gives blatant partisan
:20:45. > :20:47.advantage, then again it would cause divisions to re-emerge,
:20:48. > :20:49.but there's no need for them to do On policy and personnel, the ball
:20:50. > :20:53.is in Jeremy Corbyn's court. There will be a debate
:20:54. > :20:56.at conference, though, on what some are calling
:20:57. > :20:58.the McDonnell Amendment. A rule change that would lower
:20:59. > :21:01.the number of nominations needed Those on the left of the party have
:21:02. > :21:08.been accused of plotting to make it easier for a left-wing candidate
:21:09. > :21:11.to stand for leadership to succeed I think that opinion at conference
:21:12. > :21:22.is finely balanced on that. Because the elections
:21:23. > :21:24.for constituency delegates seem to be on a knife edge
:21:25. > :21:27.between the left and the right. We will know the outcome of those
:21:28. > :21:30.around the 9th of July And then it all depends
:21:31. > :21:37.on the attitude taken by a couple of the big unions like
:21:38. > :21:40.the GMB and Unison, about this proposal than Unite
:21:41. > :21:47.and the more left-wing unions are. Meanwhile, here at the Jeremy Corbyn
:21:48. > :21:59.supporting Momentum HQ, they believe there could be another
:22:00. > :22:01.general election within six months and are remaining
:22:02. > :22:03.in full campaign mode. We're going to be targeting
:22:04. > :22:06.new marginals and we're going to be training thousands of activists
:22:07. > :22:08.in those marginal constituencies and we going to be developing
:22:09. > :22:11.new technological platforms to make it easy for people to get
:22:12. > :22:13.involved in the election. Safe to say, they're
:22:14. > :22:15.feeling rather vindicated. Many of those who were bitterly
:22:16. > :22:20.opposed to Jeremy Corbyn have eaten their words
:22:21. > :22:22.and have apologised. Look, in the general election
:22:23. > :22:26.campaign, we campaigned for all Labour candidates
:22:27. > :22:33.in our target seats and marginal seats, irrespective of where they
:22:34. > :22:37.stood in the past on Jeremy Corbyn. We helped win seats for candidates
:22:38. > :22:41.who supported Progress, just as hard as we helped win seats
:22:42. > :22:47.for those who had always supported Jeremy and that's the way
:22:48. > :22:50.we are going to carry on. Well, I think that will last
:22:51. > :22:54.till the next election because we all want to
:22:55. > :22:56.win the next election. # Staying out for the summer,
:22:57. > :23:04.staying out for the summer #. For now, he's the man of the moment,
:23:05. > :23:08.but is this performance the peak of his popularity, or the precursor
:23:09. > :23:13.to Labour winning power? Before the general election
:23:14. > :23:21.was called, a proxy-battle for the future of the Labour party
:23:22. > :23:29.was played out in the election of the general secretary
:23:30. > :23:31.of Unite, the union, The incumbent, Len McClusky,
:23:32. > :23:38.who had put his weight behind Jeremy Corbyn,
:23:39. > :23:40.faced a challenge from Gerard Coyne, who was seen to be the Labour
:23:41. > :23:42.moderates' choice. Gerard Coyne narrowly lost,
:23:43. > :23:44.and this week he was sacked from his Unite position
:23:45. > :23:51.as a regional secretary. Good morning. You say you have been
:23:52. > :23:57.the victim of a kangaroo court and a short trial, what do you mean by
:23:58. > :24:02.that? After 29 years' service with the union I found myself dismissed
:24:03. > :24:06.for a trumped up charge that related to the election but was about
:24:07. > :24:11.nothing that relates directly to my role as a regional secretary so it
:24:12. > :24:17.showed to me that defence now cannot be tolerated inside Unite and that's
:24:18. > :24:20.a very concerning situation. The union says you were sacked for
:24:21. > :24:25.misuse of data during the leadership election campaign. You say it's
:24:26. > :24:29.because you have the audacity to challenge Len McCluskey. What's the
:24:30. > :24:34.evidence to support your side? The independent body appointed by the
:24:35. > :24:38.union to oversee the election this week produced a report that said in
:24:39. > :24:44.relation to the data issue there was no evidence I breached any rules and
:24:45. > :24:48.no evidence I breached the election guidance so actually the union's own
:24:49. > :24:53.independent body has exonerated me this week. You said "It's beyond
:24:54. > :25:03.parody that I is a 30 year member of the Labour Party should be accused
:25:04. > :25:10.of harming Unite Labour relations by Len McCluskey's chief of staff..."
:25:11. > :25:13.What do you mean by that? The investigation and the decision
:25:14. > :25:20.reached actually shows a much more concerning element about the
:25:21. > :25:24.involvement in the campaign and election that reflects badly in
:25:25. > :25:28.terms of his position as a member of the Communist Party and the sort of
:25:29. > :25:33.quite frankly Stalinist approach to the treatment I have received. So
:25:34. > :25:36.actually it was a show trial I endured recently and I don't believe
:25:37. > :25:43.I have received a fair process at all. And in this, in your words show
:25:44. > :25:48.trial, did this Unite leadership regard you as an enemy of the
:25:49. > :25:53.proletariat? The truth is they were very keen to see the descent and the
:25:54. > :25:57.different vision I have got for Unite which was focused on our
:25:58. > :26:02.members and protecting them in a difficult set of circumstances. They
:26:03. > :26:06.wanted to stamp out that voice which was one which was articulated in a
:26:07. > :26:13.different way for the union to go in the future. But you had lost. Yes
:26:14. > :26:17.but on a very small majority, and there were thousands of Unite voters
:26:18. > :26:21.that didn't have a chance to vote, which is why I'm now mounting a
:26:22. > :26:26.legal challenge to the election results and we are going to make
:26:27. > :26:32.sure it is rerun and given the opportunity to those members. So you
:26:33. > :26:36.think you have a claim in law? To put a ten point claim into the
:26:37. > :26:40.certification Officer, that has already gone in challenging the
:26:41. > :26:46.result on ten individual counts as to how it was not properly run in
:26:47. > :26:49.the first place. Do you have confidence in the certification
:26:50. > :26:54.Officer in that process or do you think you might end up in the High
:26:55. > :27:01.Court? If the certification Officer doesn't rule in favour of what I
:27:02. > :27:05.think is a strong case coming have to ask the question what is this
:27:06. > :27:11.certification Officer for, in that case I will be considering the High
:27:12. > :27:15.Court. If you are right about the way you were treated, what does it
:27:16. > :27:19.say about British trade unionism in the 21st-century that you can be
:27:20. > :27:27.sacked by your union for standing up to the boss? I expect to have a
:27:28. > :27:33.robust debate in a democratic election and not to be punished for
:27:34. > :27:37.it. I did engage in what was quite an interesting debate through the
:27:38. > :27:42.election campaign, but I've also served the union the 29 years and
:27:43. > :27:46.for most employees if they have had that length of service, some
:27:47. > :27:52.consideration would have been given to that. But Len McCluskey has been
:27:53. > :27:57.re-elected leader, Jeremy Corbyn now rules the Labour Party unchallenged.
:27:58. > :28:02.Andrew Murray, who you say mounted the show trial against you, was a
:28:03. > :28:08.key part of Jeremy Corbyn's election campaign. It does look like you've
:28:09. > :28:12.lost on all fronts. Jeremy did exceptionally well in the general
:28:13. > :28:16.election campaign, he got young people involved, and it's not about
:28:17. > :28:21.a left or right issue in terms of the party, it's about where the
:28:22. > :28:26.party goes. My fear is that the way I've treated will start to give an
:28:27. > :28:31.influence in the Labour movement or generally in the Labour Party that
:28:32. > :28:35.starts to look like purges are acceptable. If Labour does that, the
:28:36. > :28:38.electorate will never forgive them for an internal battle rather than
:28:39. > :28:43.being the effective opposition they need to be. Are you saying that what
:28:44. > :28:47.you believe happened to you could happen to other people now in the
:28:48. > :28:52.Labour Party itself? I think there is a real danger of that. The
:28:53. > :28:58.reality is the very people involved at the top of Unite, involved in the
:28:59. > :29:02.disciplinary process with myself, they are influential figures in
:29:03. > :29:05.Labour and part of my campaign is that Unite is too intrinsically
:29:06. > :29:09.linked with the top of the Labour Party and ready to be focusing on a
:29:10. > :29:13.much stronger industrial agenda for the future. If you have been a
:29:14. > :29:18.member of the Labour Party for 30 years. We have now been dismissed
:29:19. > :29:24.from your job is regional secretary I think in the West Midlands area?
:29:25. > :29:29.That's right. Have you heard from the Labour leadership on this issue?
:29:30. > :29:33.I haven't, and in terms of the leadership it would be nice to hear
:29:34. > :29:40.from them because we lost seats in the West Midlands, we should have
:29:41. > :29:44.felt onto, where working-class vote did not stay with Labour and it's
:29:45. > :29:47.important we reach out to and engage with those communities and make sure
:29:48. > :29:52.they support Labour in the future. Gerard Coyne, thank you for being
:29:53. > :29:56.with us. I've been joined now from Leeds
:29:57. > :30:08.by Labour's Jon Trickett, Welcome to the programme. Jeremy
:30:09. > :30:12.Corbyn says he wants to unite the party behind him, so why didn't he
:30:13. > :30:19.use the Shadow Cabinet reshuffle to do just that? First of all, why
:30:20. > :30:24.would he change a winning team? We did a very good election campaign,
:30:25. > :30:28.if we did not -- even if we did not quite get over the line. The Shadow
:30:29. > :30:31.Cabinet worked very hard to get their result, but there are
:30:32. > :30:35.vacancies and they were used to reach out and we have brought in the
:30:36. > :30:41.man who stood against Jeremy not that long ago in a tough battle for
:30:42. > :30:45.the leadership. I think that shows a leader who is reaching out, but also
:30:46. > :30:49.wanting to make sure that he keeps a winning team. That is a reasonable
:30:50. > :30:54.decision for him to make. What do you say to Gerard Coyne, Labour
:30:55. > :31:01.member 30 years, who believes he has been purged from the Unite union and
:31:02. > :31:07.that could be about to happen to Labour moderates in the party? There
:31:08. > :31:13.will be no purge. We want everyone together, what is remarkable is,
:31:14. > :31:16.when the so-called coup happened last year, when the PLP turned
:31:17. > :31:21.against Jeremy, our poll rating collapsed and as soon as the party
:31:22. > :31:26.reunited for the election the poll rating began to increase and that is
:31:27. > :31:30.a lesson for everyone. The lesson has been learned by all of us and we
:31:31. > :31:34.will work together as United party moving forward, but what should be
:31:35. > :31:38.clear to everyone, we cannot go back to the Labour Party as it was
:31:39. > :31:41.previously. He had got to move forward with Jeremy in the direction
:31:42. > :31:45.in which he has laid out for the party and the country. What do you
:31:46. > :31:51.say to Paul Mason, former journalists. -- former journalist.
:31:52. > :31:55.He said to Blair writes that if you want a centrist party, this is not
:31:56. > :32:02.going to be it for the next ten years -- Blairites. He said you have
:32:03. > :32:09.got to form your own party. He did look a bit excitable when I saw a
:32:10. > :32:12.piece by him on the internet, but the centre of gravity, it has
:32:13. > :32:16.changed in politics, and what was the centre is no longer the centre.
:32:17. > :32:20.The idea that a country should be run for a few at the expense of the
:32:21. > :32:25.many is one which I think has been largely destroyed in this election
:32:26. > :32:28.campaign. The centre has moved and the party has recognised with the
:32:29. > :32:32.new centre is and we now need to unite and begin to roll out the
:32:33. > :32:37.changes. There are many which need to be done on Jeremy's agenda. I say
:32:38. > :32:41.this to the party committee of Jeremy and the leadership the tools
:32:42. > :32:51.and he will finish the job -- the party, give Jeremy and the
:32:52. > :32:54.leadership the tours. If they want a more centre-left party, they are not
:32:55. > :33:00.going to get it? They should follow Paul Mason's advice? If they want
:33:01. > :33:04.that. We have heard many of them repenting on their sins in the last
:33:05. > :33:10.couple of days. That is another matter! LAUGHTER
:33:11. > :33:14.They have recognised there are new ways of campaigning we have got to
:33:15. > :33:17.listen to young people and see how they organise, but also our politics
:33:18. > :33:21.has changed as a party and it has resonated with the country. Gerard
:33:22. > :33:27.Coyne spoke about working class voters. I began writing about the
:33:28. > :33:31.problem with working class voters in 2005 at the height of the Tony Blair
:33:32. > :33:35.years and the party has more work to do in those communities and across
:33:36. > :33:40.the country to win the trust of everybody's so that we can serve
:33:41. > :33:43.them in government. Working-class voters swung to the Tories in the
:33:44. > :33:49.last election, middle-class voters went your way. There has been a
:33:50. > :33:52.problem with manual workers for some time, I don't need to be told about
:33:53. > :33:58.that, I'd been writing about it for ten years. I was a building worker
:33:59. > :34:02.for a while and we have got more work to do to regain the trust of
:34:03. > :34:05.these people, but some of the proposals will work for those people
:34:06. > :34:10.and we have got to bring them back in. Do you back the left wing move
:34:11. > :34:16.to lower the threshold of MPs needed to stand for the leadership? We will
:34:17. > :34:20.see where we get to, I'm in favour of democratising the Labour Party.
:34:21. > :34:26.Are you in favour or not? We will see where we get to. It has been a
:34:27. > :34:29.long-running debate. Do you think the threshold for anyone who wants
:34:30. > :34:36.to run for leadership should be cut to 5% of MPs? I'm not going to
:34:37. > :34:40.express my view at the moment, but when there is a leadership election
:34:41. > :34:45.it is important that every tendency within the party is represented on
:34:46. > :34:48.the ballot paper. And the rule that prevents a section of the right or
:34:49. > :34:54.the left or the centre from being on the ballot paper is a bad rule. That
:34:55. > :34:58.is an argument for lowering the threshold. We have got to look
:34:59. > :35:03.carefully at how we conduct leadership elections and that debate
:35:04. > :35:09.will be had. That far left figure we had in that film there, he said the
:35:10. > :35:16.Corbyn way of doing things is a successful way, and that is
:35:17. > :35:19.suggesting that you join the Corbyn bandwagon, you don't try to change
:35:20. > :35:24.it, that's the way forward the Labour Party? All parties have
:35:25. > :35:29.different points of view, and so is the Labour Party. You test ideas in
:35:30. > :35:33.action and what happened in the general election showed the idea
:35:34. > :35:37.that Jeremy has had and are successful, we have more than
:35:38. > :35:44.doubled our size. Over 600,000 members. You lost the third election
:35:45. > :35:50.in a row. We got the highest share of the vote, the largest number of
:35:51. > :35:59.votes. No, you didn't. The Tories did. I haven't finished my sentence.
:36:00. > :36:04.Labour has received since 1997. You lost. Of course, and that is why I
:36:05. > :36:08.have said you we have got to work harder to build confidence in people
:36:09. > :36:14.especially working people in our politics and the way we are going.
:36:15. > :36:18.Can I clarify the Labour position on Brexit? Jeremy Corbyn and John
:36:19. > :36:22.McDonnell has said the Labour position is to leave membership of
:36:23. > :36:26.the single market, so why have over 50 Labour politicians signed a
:36:27. > :36:31.letter to the Guardian in favour of membership of the single market?
:36:32. > :36:37.That is not exactly where we are. We are taking the view that we need to
:36:38. > :36:40.have access to all of the tariff rearrangements which exist within
:36:41. > :36:45.the customs union and the single market. What is the policy on
:36:46. > :36:52.membership? Let me finish. It is important to answer the question. I
:36:53. > :36:56.will give you a full answer, and the answer is, we are not wedded to any
:36:57. > :37:03.particular institutional framework, we are pragmatic about it. We will
:37:04. > :37:07.see how the negotiations go. We do not have to do one thing or another
:37:08. > :37:10.in terms of institutional relationships but we need a Brexit
:37:11. > :37:14.which works for jobs and growth and also for the protections which
:37:15. > :37:22.working people have also how that comes remains to be seen. I was
:37:23. > :37:27.asking for clarification. Is the Labour policy to remain members of
:37:28. > :37:33.the single market or not? Alp policy is to secure all of the rights which
:37:34. > :37:37.exist, tariff free access, within the single market and the customs
:37:38. > :37:41.union, and we are not saying that a particular institutional form is
:37:42. > :37:47.something we've always ourselves to at this stage. Are you for or
:37:48. > :37:52.against remaining members of the single market? It is not a question
:37:53. > :37:59.of four it is about securing the best possible arrangement for our
:38:00. > :38:06.economy and working people -- it is not a question of for or against.
:38:07. > :38:12.The labour MP Clive Lewis said Thatcher economic dogma was to blame
:38:13. > :38:18.for Grenfell Tower, but we know many tower blocks have been clad in the
:38:19. > :38:24.same material by Labour councils, was that also the fault of
:38:25. > :38:27.Thatcherite economic dogma? It is very difficult to say exactly what
:38:28. > :38:30.happened, and I worked in the building industry for many years and
:38:31. > :38:35.I know the regulations were very tight. It now looks as though
:38:36. > :38:41.something happened with the building regulations. And apart from that, we
:38:42. > :38:48.can't say exactly what lies behind this. By Tory and Labour councils,
:38:49. > :38:57.that is my point, both parties have questions to answer. Yes, but the
:38:58. > :38:58.government have sat on the recommendations, like the
:38:59. > :39:03.recommendation of this printer systems, they have sat on those
:39:04. > :39:11.documents for years. -- sprinkler systems. Do you think all parties
:39:12. > :39:15.should stop trying to make political capital out of what is effectively a
:39:16. > :39:20.national disaster? And tried to get to the bottom of a system explained
:39:21. > :39:25.the and try to do better regardless of the party? Yes, everyone should
:39:26. > :39:28.do the same. The sooner we get the results of the inquiry the better,
:39:29. > :39:31.but if there are decisions which can be made sooner than the public
:39:32. > :39:34.inquiry they should be made and implemented. Jon Trickett, thanks
:39:35. > :39:42.for joining us. It's just gone 1140,
:39:43. > :39:44.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:39:45. > :39:47.in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20
:39:48. > :39:50.minutes, the Week Ahead. First, though, the Sunday
:39:51. > :39:55.Politics where you are. We'll be picking up on the latest
:39:56. > :40:02.information about the tower blocks And reflecting on what we've
:40:03. > :40:07.learned so far about the Grenfell Tower fire itself,
:40:08. > :40:10.where the recovery operation is likely to last - say police -
:40:11. > :40:14.until the end of the year. I'm joined by the Conservative MP
:40:15. > :40:19.for Wimbledon, Stephen Hammond, and by Rushanara Ali,
:40:20. > :40:22.Labour MP for Bethnal Green and Bow. A word first about what's
:40:23. > :40:25.happening in Camden. Tenants of four blocks have
:40:26. > :40:27.spent a second night That is apart from 80 or so
:40:28. > :40:33.residents who have refused to budge. The work to remove the cladding
:40:34. > :40:36.here could take three or four weeks. The Labour-controlled council made
:40:37. > :40:43.the decision to evacuate buildings So far no other London
:40:44. > :40:46.council has followed suit. But we know there are issues
:40:47. > :40:49.around cladding in Barnet, Hounslow, Islington,
:40:50. > :40:53.Brent - and we suspect Wandsworth. Which has, like Croydon,
:40:54. > :40:55.said it is going to retrofit This is what the mayor
:40:56. > :41:07.of London said this morning. I was enclosed conduct with Camden
:41:08. > :41:11.Council on Wednesday and Thursday -- I was in close contact. I think they
:41:12. > :41:15.have done the right thing, you can't play Russian roulette with people's
:41:16. > :41:18.safety and they have received the advice from the experts that acted
:41:19. > :41:24.on the advice and I'm hoping that because the council speedily asked
:41:25. > :41:27.for this help and because the government has said they are
:41:28. > :41:31.committed to helping councils who need their help, we will soon the
:41:32. > :41:32.work that needs to be done on the building to make it safe so families
:41:33. > :41:46.can go back to their homes. A clear need for issuance, 34 tests
:41:47. > :41:51.have come back with 34 positives for flammable material -- reassurance.
:41:52. > :41:56.Yes, this has got to be done properly, but the problem is to make
:41:57. > :41:59.sure that we do the testing and then taking the fire advice and that is
:42:00. > :42:04.clearly what is taking, but also making sure that there is support
:42:05. > :42:09.for councils and local authorities who will have to bear the costs. As
:42:10. > :42:13.I understand it from Fire Services, the costs will vary from building to
:42:14. > :42:17.building. Because in itself the material is not a problem, it is
:42:18. > :42:21.what it is layered with which is the problem, making sure you understand
:42:22. > :42:26.that, and then the size of the building. In Tower Hamlets they
:42:27. > :42:29.don't seem to have the cladding that is a worry, but you can tell from
:42:30. > :42:35.the Czechs, there is real nervousness amongst the high-rise
:42:36. > :42:40.den stash you can tell from the checks. Yes, that huge anxiety, I
:42:41. > :42:45.was visiting residents in blocks where testing is being done, and in
:42:46. > :42:48.one case we are waiting for advice from the Department on whether the
:42:49. > :42:54.cladding needs to be removed so we have one block. We have fire wardens
:42:55. > :42:59.monitoring and supporting local residents in that block. We are not
:43:00. > :43:04.out of the woods either, but there is a bigger issue which is, I'm not
:43:05. > :43:09.confident that this is being done systematically, the cladding issue
:43:10. > :43:14.is being inspected systematically, but we had a fire in my constituency
:43:15. > :43:20.yesterday in a low rise building without cladding. And I'm concerned
:43:21. > :43:26.that the government needs to step up the inspections and support across
:43:27. > :43:31.blocks which could have wider issues which has come up, and I flagged up
:43:32. > :43:35.these issues through the communities and local government committee over
:43:36. > :43:41.the last year. We have got to look at this much more widely.
:43:42. > :43:44.So much blurs into one in this tumultuous period for the capital.
:43:45. > :43:47.But the attack outside a mosque at the beginning of the week again
:43:48. > :43:50.put safety and policing to the fore, and senior police officer
:43:51. > :43:53.after senior police officer talked about money.
:43:54. > :44:01.The emergency services put to the test again this week
:44:02. > :44:03.after a terror attack in Finsbury Park only days
:44:04. > :44:11.Across London, many are saying they don't feel safe,
:44:12. > :44:13.not least in the Muslim community who were subjected to
:44:14. > :44:18.Islamophobia, unfortunately, is on the rise, and hate crime
:44:19. > :44:21.is also on the rise and we have to do something
:44:22. > :44:26.This Muslim woman had to be comforted by the Communities
:44:27. > :44:33.I was devastated, scared, for the community,
:44:34. > :44:41.The government is stressing it will take Islamophobic
:44:42. > :44:48.There is no place for this hatred in our country today.
:44:49. > :44:51.And we need to work together as one society and one
:44:52. > :44:53.community to drive it out, this evil, that is affecting
:44:54. > :44:57.But the Mayor of London believes it is as much
:44:58. > :44:59.a question of resources for the Metropolitan Police
:45:00. > :45:03.which has had to make savings of ?600 million since 2010.
:45:04. > :45:07.My message to the government is, the plans you have to make further
:45:08. > :45:09.cuts of ?400 million, don't do it.
:45:10. > :45:12.My message to the government is, the plans you had to change
:45:13. > :45:16.the police funded formula so London loses more money, don't do it.
:45:17. > :45:19.But the opposition at City Hall say the mayor could find
:45:20. > :45:24.They do need to find another ?400 million of efficiency savings.
:45:25. > :45:26.?300 million of that had been earmarked before Sadiq Khan
:45:27. > :45:31.The mayor is in charge of a gross budget approaching ?17 billion.
:45:32. > :45:35.The ?100 million that he's missing and that is the real figure,
:45:36. > :45:38.not the one he is pushing in the media, is 0.59% of that.
:45:39. > :45:41.Any politician worth their salt can move things around to close that
:45:42. > :45:45.Whatever the case may be, the Commissioner Cressida Dick
:45:46. > :45:47.admitted to BBC London this week that her officers were
:45:48. > :45:52.We are not having any fewer calls for help from the public
:45:53. > :45:57.And I'm talking with the mayor and with the government
:45:58. > :46:04.about the resources that we need, I believe, in the future.
:46:05. > :46:06.She has acted to increase the number of officers armed with tasers
:46:07. > :46:13.to respond to situations like the attack in North London.
:46:14. > :46:15.But after three terror attacks in as many months,
:46:16. > :46:18.many are wondering what else needs to be done to protect
:46:19. > :46:31.Joining me now, Mak Chishty formerly the highest ranking Muslim
:46:32. > :46:38.The leader in Islington set this week he didn't think there had been
:46:39. > :46:42.a spike in hate crime after what happened at London Bridge, I think
:46:43. > :46:48.the Mayor of London said there had been. Have we seen an increase in
:46:49. > :46:51.hate crime? Definitely, there's been an increase following both
:46:52. > :46:55.Manchester but also following the London Bridge attacks to a point
:46:56. > :47:03.where it has reached unprecedented levels. It will stay -- return back
:47:04. > :47:09.to normal but there has been an increase. What can be done about it?
:47:10. > :47:14.We need to stop communities turning on one another so it's important to
:47:15. > :47:17.respond to the incident quickly, other community impact assessment so
:47:18. > :47:20.you understand the whole circumstances of it, and make sure
:47:21. > :47:25.communities and victims feel confident. This is about reaching
:47:26. > :47:31.out. So that they have confidence in police. How did you feel the
:47:32. > :47:37.response was not just by the police but community leaders of all faiths
:47:38. > :47:41.to what happened at Islington? I thought despite the horrendous
:47:42. > :47:45.attack, the fact that front line officers got there and neutralised
:47:46. > :47:49.the threat within eight minutes was excellent and a complete testament
:47:50. > :47:54.to their professionalism. I thought the way the community reacted,
:47:55. > :48:00.especially the imam, showed our principles and values and it was a
:48:01. > :48:02.good example. And I thought the way politicians, police and the
:48:03. > :48:09.community came together shown the ability of standing together against
:48:10. > :48:13.any threat, condemning it and being strong and defiant. You can talk
:48:14. > :48:17.freely now you are out of the force, do you think the police have been
:48:18. > :48:23.doing enough to tackle Islamophobia? I was responsible for hate crime,
:48:24. > :48:33.and a lot of the effort goes in there. A lot of other networks are
:48:34. > :48:43.used... You mean police? Community networks. We are building our
:48:44. > :48:49.ability to respond but also we are reaching out to people to say that
:48:50. > :48:53.no matter how small you think it is, it is important to tell us so we can
:48:54. > :48:58.identify trends and make sure we deter and prevent it and if we
:48:59. > :49:06.cannot, we capture someone and take them to justice. Where'd you think
:49:07. > :49:13.the law can be improved? Some people are accepting it as a way of life,
:49:14. > :49:17.and it shouldn't. Even if it is someone tugging at your headscarf,
:49:18. > :49:26.you may think the police cannot do something about this but we want to
:49:27. > :49:35.know. For community's sake, let us no. Rushanara Ali, is enough being
:49:36. > :49:39.done to tackle this? In my constituency we have had numerous
:49:40. > :49:42.attempts by far right groups who have demonstrated outside the east
:49:43. > :49:47.London mosque and we've had a lot of support from the police. We've also
:49:48. > :49:52.had in the past Antrim Choudhury and the Muslim defence league and the
:49:53. > :49:56.community wants quick, instant response from the police and we've
:49:57. > :49:59.had that but one of the issues is the balance between protest and
:50:00. > :50:03.incitement to violence and I think the Government needs to look at both
:50:04. > :50:11.kinds of protest and make sure that is dealt with firmly because we just
:50:12. > :50:16.cannot have violence taking place outside religious buildings. The
:50:17. > :50:20.second point is to support the Home Office offered for security in
:50:21. > :50:24.mosques, and glad the Government is reviewing the process because
:50:25. > :50:27.mosques like the east London Mosque didn't get the grant they had
:50:28. > :50:34.applied for even though they have been victims of hate crime. The
:50:35. > :50:40.final point is around community support officers. The commission
:50:41. > :50:44.raised alarm bells about the cut, they are the eyes and ears of our
:50:45. > :50:48.communities and now in my constituency the police are having
:50:49. > :50:52.to work with local communities to have community wardens and train
:50:53. > :50:57.them. We cannot have that as a substitute for policing which is
:50:58. > :51:02.where some areas are heading because of the 20,000 police cuts. How has
:51:03. > :51:12.your community responded to London Bridge, Stephen? A lot of people
:51:13. > :51:17.have said the same as what Mak side, which is we cannot allow terrorism
:51:18. > :51:23.to become routine. The Prime Minister was right in reviving it. I
:51:24. > :51:26.work closely with one of the mosques in my constituency, there was an
:51:27. > :51:30.extra piece walk after Manchester just highlight what they are doing
:51:31. > :51:34.within the community. But I think there are a number of things coming
:51:35. > :51:43.through and the first thing is the Home Secretary's response establish
:51:44. > :51:53.counter extremist commission. Also some of the programmes like the
:51:54. > :51:57.Channel programme to stop people being radicalised as one of the
:51:58. > :52:02.successes people don't hear about. Very quick point, do you think the
:52:03. > :52:08.?400 million cuts threatened for the Met will now happen? It's not
:52:09. > :52:18.politically durable, is it? There is a dispute with someone in your piece
:52:19. > :52:23.pointing out the mayor could protect this. They are putting an extra 500
:52:24. > :52:29.million for counterterrorism issues and as a London MPI will be arguing
:52:30. > :52:35.London needs that. Channel working, do you agree with that? I think it
:52:36. > :52:41.is working. It's not just about Islamic extremism, I think about 25%
:52:42. > :52:44.is about far right extremism as well so it's across the board. When the
:52:45. > :52:48.cuts started we were focused on traditional types of crimes, the
:52:49. > :52:57.things we were very familiar with. Going forward we have seen cyber and
:52:58. > :53:06.online abuse, we have seen hatred, and the mission has grown. At the
:53:07. > :53:10.same time as we have been constructing our resource base and
:53:11. > :53:15.going forward, I think the sensible question to be it cannot continue. I
:53:16. > :53:19.don't think it can, there needs to be a rethink about that but I'd like
:53:20. > :53:24.to once again pay tribute to our front line officers whose public
:53:25. > :53:28.service ethos is immeasurable but there will always be a limit to the
:53:29. > :53:33.stamina. Thank you for being here today.
:53:34. > :53:35.Recovery. Resilience.
:53:36. > :53:36.Re-housing. Recrimination.
:53:37. > :53:38.What happened at Grenfell tower is testing public agencies
:53:39. > :53:41.and political leaders - national and local - to the limit.
:53:42. > :53:45.Dan Freedman assessed things there this week.
:53:46. > :53:48.Red watch, returning to Grenfell for the first time since the fire
:53:49. > :53:56.to get closure and to apologise to those they couldn't save.
:53:57. > :54:10.It feels like the mood here is changing.
:54:11. > :54:12.It's been just over a week since fire tore
:54:13. > :54:15.through the Grenfell Tower, killing an as yet unknown number of people.
:54:16. > :54:20.and the anger rises, a day of rage march is planned
:54:21. > :54:25.# Justice for Grenfell # Justice for Grenfell.
:54:26. > :54:30.The protest passes peacefully, but the anger is still raw.
:54:31. > :54:39.These are the questions for everyone in every tower block.
:54:40. > :54:44.Justice looks like going around, checking every single building that
:54:45. > :54:48.Going around checking every single one of them,
:54:49. > :54:50.anywhere where they've got that material where it should not be,
:54:51. > :54:54.This week, local authorities said hundreds of English tower blocks may
:54:55. > :54:58.have used similar cladding to that used at Grenfell.
:54:59. > :55:01.The Government says no one will be left to live in unsafe
:55:02. > :55:05.buildings and promised an urgent public inquiry.
:55:06. > :55:07.But for Louise Christian, the tragedy represents
:55:08. > :55:13.She spent four years seeking justice after the last major UK tower block
:55:14. > :55:19.She acted for the six victims' families at the inquest.
:55:20. > :55:23.At the time it happened, there was huge shock.
:55:24. > :55:26.The public inquiry was announced, and then the public inquiry
:55:27. > :55:29.got delayed and delayed because of a criminal
:55:30. > :55:32.investigation, which went on for four and a half years.
:55:33. > :55:35.The public inquiry was downgraded into being an inquest.
:55:36. > :55:40.More importantly, the Government that's now in power didn't adopt any
:55:41. > :55:47.so for example sprinklers were not retrofitted in tower blocks.
:55:48. > :55:49.There wasn't a review of the building regulations,
:55:50. > :55:55.But the Fire Brigade union say the Government must
:55:56. > :55:59.Do you think this could be a Hillsborough moment?
:56:00. > :56:02.I think it's got to be a major, major turning point.
:56:03. > :56:05.Like Hillsborough, like other tragedies unfortunately.
:56:06. > :56:07.Unfortunately, it seems that in this country we only seem
:56:08. > :56:11.to learn when something this horrific happens.
:56:12. > :56:14.Osama lives in a neighbouring tower block, and asked us
:56:15. > :56:18.I was speaking to my neighbour and she said, you know,
:56:19. > :56:22.her kids have to look at that every day when they wake up.
:56:23. > :56:24.Every day, you know, when you go to the kitchen
:56:25. > :56:27.or you go to the balcony, you have to see that.
:56:28. > :56:31.It's literally a graveyard outside your house.
:56:32. > :56:35.He says there's a lot to do to make his block safe.
:56:36. > :56:38.Sometimes both lifts are broken down, so that, for example,
:56:39. > :56:41.I would have to walk more than ten floors a day up and
:56:42. > :56:46.I can imagine how that would be for elderly people living
:56:47. > :56:51.And then you see the poor maintenance of these buildings.
:56:52. > :56:54.It's like they have no regard for the residents who live here.
:56:55. > :57:08.And too early to know whether this time the response will be different.
:57:09. > :57:11.I'm joined by Mike Grannatt, who set up Civil Contingency Secretariat,
:57:12. > :57:13.which is the department in the Cabinet Office responsible
:57:14. > :57:25.Now retired some time ago but what did you think about the response
:57:26. > :57:30.here to the displaced people, the survivors? I think it stalled very
:57:31. > :57:34.clearly at the beginning when it shouldn't have done. Because there
:57:35. > :57:37.are good arrangements in place, they are so good they are cited in
:57:38. > :57:42.guidance to local authorities from the Government and the Society of
:57:43. > :57:50.local authority Chief executives, which was issued in 2014. We should
:57:51. > :57:56.have seen a response from the very beginning, where plans that should
:57:57. > :57:59.have been practised and tested went into place very quickly and we
:58:00. > :58:04.should have seen Kensington and Chelsea call in help quickly when
:58:05. > :58:09.they couldn't cope. Why didn't they do this? I don't know but sometimes
:58:10. > :58:14.senior managers can freeze in place with these things. It can be
:58:15. > :58:18.difficult to say we are not coping. The training exercises should have
:58:19. > :58:22.made it easy to do that. Am I right in thinking the procedures could
:58:23. > :58:25.only be triggered with the say-so of Kensington and Chelsea Council, and
:58:26. > :58:31.if they kept saying we will cope with this on our own, they couldn't
:58:32. > :58:35.trigger them? That might be what happened. Other authorities only got
:58:36. > :58:41.involved more than 48 hours afterwards, what would you say about
:58:42. > :58:44.that? I would say they must have been pushed into it by the
:58:45. > :58:49.Government, and they clearly weren't enough resources in London to get
:58:50. > :58:53.the job done, even with London's resources because by Monday they
:58:54. > :58:59.were calling in emergency planners from Kent. You are not likely to see
:59:00. > :59:02.a change in the system that can be triggered independently,
:59:03. > :59:06.immediately. Why did this not become a pan London response within a few
:59:07. > :59:09.hours? It is difficult to know because the chief executive at
:59:10. > :59:14.Kensington and Chelsea would have been sitting on a group to manage
:59:15. > :59:19.the incident. He and his counsel and his political leadership should have
:59:20. > :59:23.known very early on that they were facing a catastrophe. Surely there
:59:24. > :59:29.should be now a system where it gets triggered by someone outside of that
:59:30. > :59:31.council? You would hope so but that people best to do these things are
:59:32. > :59:35.people with resources on the ground. There will have to be a better
:59:36. > :59:38.system in place whereby central government will have to intervene
:59:39. > :59:43.early on and other boroughs are allowed to intervene early on to ask
:59:44. > :59:48.serious questions, do you want to help, we are sending it now. With
:59:49. > :59:52.these events you should throw resources at its early. By the time
:59:53. > :59:55.you have failed to do that, it is too late. Should the Government have
:59:56. > :00:01.acted more quickly to say this is London wide, you cannot cope,
:00:02. > :00:04.whatever you say we are coming in? I think the public inquiry should,
:00:05. > :00:08.after it has dealt with the urgent matters of fire protection, should
:00:09. > :00:14.look very hard up the system. It will be very awkward for your
:00:15. > :00:18.government, and your local authority when this comes out in the wash in
:00:19. > :00:21.the inquiry. It's important to see what comes out of the public inquiry
:00:22. > :00:25.and the Prime Minister was right in the House of Commons to apologise
:00:26. > :00:30.and say the initial response wasn't good enough. The initial response
:00:31. > :00:34.has kicked in, but everybody will have temporary accommodation within
:00:35. > :00:38.three weeks, permanent housing is being found for people, the system
:00:39. > :00:43.has kicked in, there's a Grenfell Tower recovery fund which is already
:00:44. > :00:47.going. The Treasury is making sure people can access their bank
:00:48. > :00:51.accounts. DWP is making sure people can access their benefits. The
:00:52. > :00:54.response was poor, the Prime Minister stood up, but we should
:00:55. > :00:58.look at whether the Government triggers this in future. The
:00:59. > :01:02.Government has now later in the day but now on top of it and absolutely
:01:03. > :01:05.funding the help to people who need it and one of the things that will
:01:06. > :01:08.also come out of this inquiry is to make sure we look at fire
:01:09. > :01:14.regulations in the future. As a result of the Lakanal House fire, DC
:01:15. > :01:24.LG did... What do you say about the response?
:01:25. > :01:26.I agree with the points about the response needing to be early and it
:01:27. > :01:31.is worrying that the government did not step in quickly enough. In the
:01:32. > :01:34.event of terrorist attacks we have a much better system of rapid
:01:35. > :01:38.response, and we need to draw on those lessons to make sure that we
:01:39. > :01:47.learn lessons quickly in the event of God forbid any future fires. The
:01:48. > :01:53.other thing, briefly, on the response after the previous
:01:54. > :01:58.enquiries, DDC LG committee raised issues in 2012 and 2013, and I've
:01:59. > :02:02.raised issues about building regulations and safety and it has
:02:03. > :02:08.fallen on deaf ears, I'm afraid. We can't have that in the future.
:02:09. > :02:14.Unelected representative, the civil servant takes the rap and resigns,
:02:15. > :02:17.no political accountability? There is clearly accountability, the Prime
:02:18. > :02:21.Minister has said we failed and we should have done it faster, and the
:02:22. > :02:24.response since then has been good and how it should have been, but of
:02:25. > :02:27.course there has been political acceptance that we got it wrong at
:02:28. > :02:31.the start and that is one of the lessons to learn, but the key thing
:02:32. > :02:35.is that this is affecting those people and we need to make sure we
:02:36. > :02:40.are doing things now that help. Very good to have you here.
:02:41. > :02:42.My thanks Mike Grannatt, to Rushanara Ali and
:02:43. > :02:49.We will be responding further in the weeks and months to come.
:02:50. > :02:54.And with that it's back to you, Andrew.
:02:55. > :02:57.What deal will Theresa May strike with the DUP to give
:02:58. > :03:04.Will the Prime Minister get her programme for government,
:03:05. > :03:07.the Queen's Speech, over the first hurdle in a House
:03:08. > :03:11.And who's in pole position to take over from Mrs May if she's
:03:12. > :03:30.A number of stories in the papers this morning about Philip Hammond
:03:31. > :03:36.becoming a caretaker Tory leader with the support of David Davis.
:03:37. > :03:42.What did you make of them? I was dismayed to hear that Tim was coming
:03:43. > :03:47.on the story because I was prepared to rubbish his story. I will go for
:03:48. > :03:52.it. This is great sport, and if I was in Tim's position I would also
:03:53. > :03:58.be cooking up stories, but Tim will say it is based on several very good
:03:59. > :04:01.sources, but my sense from the Tory backbenchers, they are in no way
:04:02. > :04:06.manoeuvring to get someone else installed in number ten, and I'm not
:04:07. > :04:09.saying that Theresa May is secure long-term but I don't sense that
:04:10. > :04:15.there is any immediate threat to her at the moment. I agree partly, but
:04:16. > :04:21.there is a shadow leadership battle. If you look at the fact that
:04:22. > :04:23.ministers have been out on the airwaves, people who I thought might
:04:24. > :04:27.have gone to a retirement home have popped up after the election
:04:28. > :04:32.campaign and are doing media again. People are jockeying, but the
:04:33. > :04:35.feeling of instability is such that they know it looks incredibly
:04:36. > :04:40.self-indulgent focus internally. We have started the Brexit clock by
:04:41. > :04:46.triggering Article 50 Mbits a hard time limit on that. We are in a
:04:47. > :04:53.world where it changes week by week, is it not incredible that there is a
:04:54. > :04:56.plan, to put Phil Hammond in as a caretaker for two years, then he
:04:57. > :05:02.will step down, and then I forget who will take over? Possibly Amber
:05:03. > :05:07.Rudd. The younger generation. This will all be done with David Davis's
:05:08. > :05:11.support, that is rather incredible. I thought it was incredible, as
:05:12. > :05:16.well, but the more calls I put in, there was a lot of chatter about
:05:17. > :05:25.this. What persuaded me that it was interesting, there were Brexit
:05:26. > :05:31.supporting MPs who felt they could stand Philip Hammond in charge. But
:05:32. > :05:34.everyone is taking the view that Theresa May is not going to lead
:05:35. > :05:38.them into the next election, so at what point do they installed the new
:05:39. > :05:43.leader? The sensible time would be in the late summer to get something
:05:44. > :05:47.in place by the party conference. With David Davis and Philip Hammond,
:05:48. > :05:50.pretty well everyone agrees they are the two grown-ups in the Cabinet and
:05:51. > :05:54.if they can come to arrangement with one of them at the top, that might
:05:55. > :05:59.be the way to have a smooth transition. Some of the stories have
:06:00. > :06:04.David Davis to be the caretaker and Phil Hammond to be the number two.
:06:05. > :06:08.David Davis was on the BBC this morning and he reacted to this.
:06:09. > :06:11.Let me be absolutely plain about this.
:06:12. > :06:13.Number one, I happen to think we've got a very good Prime Minister.
:06:14. > :06:16.I know she's coming under a lot of pressure at the moment,
:06:17. > :06:20.I've seen a number of prime ministers in
:06:21. > :06:22.Going right back to Margaret Thatcher.
:06:23. > :06:25.She makes good decisions, she's bold.
:06:26. > :06:27.There's no crisis about this government.
:06:28. > :06:30.It's very very clear that she's a good Prime Minister.
:06:31. > :06:34.Point number two, I want a stable backdrop to this Brexit negotiation.
:06:35. > :06:40.What is your message to those Tories who are already ruffling around
:06:41. > :06:41.in the rhododendrons muttering about leadership
:06:42. > :06:47.Don't be so self-indulgent is my message to those.
:06:48. > :06:55.Of course, he would say that, to an extent. I thought that was quite
:06:56. > :06:59.sincere. I've observed him long enough to know that he is always on
:07:00. > :07:04.manoeuvres of some sort but if he is on manoeuvres now, they involve not
:07:05. > :07:07.being manoeuvres for the time being. If there was credibility to this, if
:07:08. > :07:12.they were really thinking they would have a caretaker and then replace
:07:13. > :07:16.the caretaker with someone else, and then we may do something different,
:07:17. > :07:21.what with the voters make, at a time of national crisis, of huge
:07:22. > :07:26.difficulty, that the Tory party is just playing musical chairs? That is
:07:27. > :07:29.why you have MPs like Ken Clarke who say that this looks very
:07:30. > :07:36.self-indulgent. If anything we have learned from the last 20 years, it
:07:37. > :07:39.is that if you try to have a cooked up thing where everyone knows they
:07:40. > :07:43.are going to be the front man and you are the real brains of the
:07:44. > :07:47.operation, that is a recipe for huge falling out, and people need to know
:07:48. > :07:52.who they are voting for. You didn't say the bit when David Davis was
:07:53. > :07:55.asked if he would go for the leadership, and he said I'm not
:07:56. > :08:02.getting into that. -- you didn't show the bit. Let's move on. He is
:08:03. > :08:08.on quantum manoeuvres. To the more immediate. Tim, where are we with
:08:09. > :08:14.this attempt with the Conservatives to get a deal with the DUP? It is in
:08:15. > :08:20.a mess, but effectively done. People say the confidence side of it was
:08:21. > :08:23.sorted a few weeks ago, but then the fire happened and they weren't keen
:08:24. > :08:27.to do a big announcement and they are still arguing over, not so much
:08:28. > :08:33.the amount of money, but the mechanisms and how it works. I've
:08:34. > :08:37.spoken to DUP sources who say there is no circumstance in which they
:08:38. > :08:40.would vote down this Queen's Speech and the other thing that is
:08:41. > :08:44.happening, the time is meant to be running out on the next stage of the
:08:45. > :08:48.Stormont arrangements and the threat that is coming from the Tory Chief
:08:49. > :08:52.Whip Gavin Williamson to the DUP and one they take very seriously, if you
:08:53. > :08:57.don't vote for the Queen's Speech on Thursday you could effectively have
:08:58. > :09:03.Jeremy Corbyn taking direct rule of Northern Ireland with his old pals
:09:04. > :09:09.from Sinn Fein. That is the threat the Tories hang over the DUP, but
:09:10. > :09:11.the DUP are tough negotiators and if they haven't agreed to an
:09:12. > :09:16.arrangement by the Queen's Speech and they simply abstain, the
:09:17. > :09:22.government will probably still get it through, but the margin will be
:09:23. > :09:25.slight. It's a strange situation. Whether government has greater
:09:26. > :09:28.priorities than forming a government, than forming a majority
:09:29. > :09:33.government, I think they feel fairly confident that they can get over the
:09:34. > :09:37.hurdle next week. And it might be rather marginal, but as long as they
:09:38. > :09:41.can get through it. Simply wresting back on the assurance that there are
:09:42. > :09:49.no circumstances in which the DUP will bring them crashing down. That
:09:50. > :09:53.is enough for now. The long-term situation for Northern Ireland
:09:54. > :09:56.politics is very interesting. This will come under pressure if there is
:09:57. > :09:59.a vote in which the Sinn Fein votes would have made a difference, that
:10:00. > :10:05.is how they squeezed the SDLP and at the same time there is a pressure
:10:06. > :10:08.for them to come back to the Stormont talks, because there will
:10:09. > :10:13.be money flowing into Northern Ireland and they will be acute focus
:10:14. > :10:16.on the areas to which that is going. Labour will put down the memory
:10:17. > :10:24.which will highlight a number of things in the Labour manifesto and
:10:25. > :10:27.-- will put down the manifesto. They may well lose, probably, but at the
:10:28. > :10:32.moment Labour really thinks, if they could cause another election, they
:10:33. > :10:36.think they could win. So there will be all sorts of pressure, lots of
:10:37. > :10:40.votes which will go down to the wire. It is very important, Labour
:10:41. > :10:44.think they can win and fable but votes that can go down to the wire
:10:45. > :10:50.and we will see what the next couple of years will look like -- they will
:10:51. > :10:54.put votes. This is not a world that the Tory MPs like the look of, they
:10:55. > :10:57.have been told they can't take time off, they will be kept late at the
:10:58. > :11:03.House of Commons and that will put stress on the Tory party. The poor
:11:04. > :11:08.dears. The important thing, that they accept the view that the Labour
:11:09. > :11:15.Party has, because Tory MPs also believe Labour will win the election
:11:16. > :11:20.if it will -- if it were to happen any time soon. And so anyone who
:11:21. > :11:24.shares the Labour view on the customs union and things like that.
:11:25. > :11:28.If the government loses a crucial vote, this doesn't trigger an
:11:29. > :11:33.election, but it means the Queen would ask Jeremy Corbyn to form a
:11:34. > :11:42.government. He would say, yes. He might well. What remains to be seen,
:11:43. > :11:44.how effective Labour are now as a machine, Parliamentary machine,
:11:45. > :11:49.because what we saw from the election, Jeremy Corbyn exceeded any
:11:50. > :11:53.expectations in his talents as a campaigner but the fundamentals, if
:11:54. > :11:58.you talk to labour MPs who have been sceptical about him, haven't changed
:11:59. > :12:01.in terms of his ability to manage the Parliamentary party. Nothing
:12:02. > :12:06.that has happened so far in terms of the rhetoric coming out from Labour
:12:07. > :12:10.on Brexit gives any cause for confidence that there is a strategy
:12:11. > :12:17.or even a tone that has been set that is coherent. You heard the
:12:18. > :12:23.Unite union man Gerard Coyne who believes he has been purged from the
:12:24. > :12:28.organisation and he believed that could happen in the party, as well.
:12:29. > :12:31.But if you have achieved what Jeremy Corbyn has achieved, and he is now
:12:32. > :12:36.ahead in the polls, even if they don't matter much will stop he has
:12:37. > :12:40.better ratings than Theresa May now. Why would you not say, this is a
:12:41. > :12:45.winning formula and I will rebuild the party in my image? It is a
:12:46. > :12:50.legitimate thing to do, but Europe is crucial. That is why Labour was
:12:51. > :12:53.like another election sooner rather than later before any crucial votes
:12:54. > :12:57.on things like the customs union and freedom of movement because they
:12:58. > :13:03.held together a much bigger coalition than anybody thought but
:13:04. > :13:10.they did that on the back of angry Remainers. This could factor again
:13:11. > :13:13.for them. When we talk about remaking the Labour Party in the
:13:14. > :13:19.image of Jeremy Corbyn, the question is, is that someone who is sceptical
:13:20. > :13:21.about Europe, and you will see some Labour MPs rebelling on Europe
:13:22. > :13:27.because they know that's the thing the members agree with them on, and
:13:28. > :13:31.not with Mr Corbyn. A week really is a long time in politics, as Harold
:13:32. > :13:34.Wilson said. Jo Coburn will be on BBC Two at noon
:13:35. > :13:39.tomorrow with the Daily Politics, and I'll be back here on BBC One
:13:40. > :13:42.next Sunday at 11am with Remember - if it's Sunday,
:13:43. > :14:11.it's the Sunday Politics. The critically-acclaimed
:14:12. > :14:13.series is back. then we have to treat only patients
:14:14. > :14:18.with very early stages of favourable tumours and let everybody
:14:19. > :14:22.else die, and that's not ethical. Explore the human stories
:14:23. > :14:31.behind the headlines. Across the country,
:14:32. > :14:37.11 million people But how would their landlords manage
:14:38. > :14:42.living as tenants?