:00:36. > :00:41.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:42. > :00:42.Her position may be safe for the time-being.
:00:43. > :00:47.But what about Theresa May's policies?
:00:48. > :00:49.As ministers drops hints about easing the public sector pay
:00:50. > :00:53.cap, is the Conservative Party undergoing a rebrand?
:00:54. > :00:56.Jeremy Corbyn takes to the streets to call for an end to austerity.
:00:57. > :00:59.But with his party's divisions on Brexit thrust into the open
:01:00. > :01:05.is his post-election honeymoon coming to an end?
:01:06. > :01:10.And, with Brexit talks under way, we know there's plenty at stake
:01:11. > :01:12.for Britain, as it negotiates a new relationship.
:01:13. > :01:14.But what's at stake for the remaining EU countries?
:01:15. > :01:19.We speak to a leading European politician.
:01:20. > :01:24.In London - we'll have the latest on the crisis engulfing one
:01:25. > :01:26.of the Tories' flagship borough, Kensington and Chelsea,
:01:27. > :01:34.over its handling of the Grenfell tower disaster.
:01:35. > :01:39.And, on the eve of Wimbledon, I'm joined by the three top seats
:01:40. > :01:41.of political commentary, Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott
:01:42. > :01:46.They'll be serving up aces throughout the programme.
:01:47. > :01:49.Is the Government going to change its policy on public sector pay?
:01:50. > :01:52.The Conservative manifesto stated that the 1% cap on annual pay rises
:01:53. > :01:56.for public sector workers would remain in place
:01:57. > :02:00.until 2020, saving up to ?5 billion a year by then.
:02:01. > :02:05.Earlier this week there were rumblings that the policy
:02:06. > :02:08.would be reviewed, before the Treasury weighed in to suggest
:02:09. > :02:12.The new Environment Secretary, Michael Gove, was asked about it
:02:13. > :02:17.on the Andrew Marr show earlier today.
:02:18. > :02:20.I was Education Secretary and I know the schoolteachers pay review body
:02:21. > :02:29.Not a poodle but they work underneath the overall strategy
:02:30. > :02:31.set by the Chancellor, set by the government.
:02:32. > :02:33.They take account of that, but they also take account
:02:34. > :02:36.of other questions as well, including the number of people
:02:37. > :02:39.who are entering the profession, whether we need to have an increase
:02:40. > :02:42.in pay in order to ensure we get the best people in the profession.
:02:43. > :02:45.These pay review bodies have been set up in order to ensure we can
:02:46. > :02:48.have authoritative advice on what is required in order
:02:49. > :02:50.to ensure the public services on which we rely are effectively
:02:51. > :02:58.staffed and the people within them are effectively supported.
:02:59. > :03:00.I think we should respect the integrity of that process.
:03:01. > :03:03.I'm not an individual, I am a member of the government,
:03:04. > :03:11.Michael Gove. Two U-turns in one day, maybe going for the hat-trick
:03:12. > :03:15.this week. It sounds they are thinking of ways of loosening up the
:03:16. > :03:20.pay freeze but Mr Hammond doesn't want it to come out until the autumn
:03:21. > :03:23.budget. That is absolutely right. My understanding is the deal is already
:03:24. > :03:28.done. We've reported this week that 20 quite senior Tory MPs went to see
:03:29. > :03:32.the new chief of staff on Wednesday, to make it very clear indeed they
:03:33. > :03:36.would be voting for a budget that allowed the public sector pay freeze
:03:37. > :03:42.to continue. Fine, we're going to do this, we're going to give fresh
:03:43. > :03:46.advice to the pay review bodies that there remit has been expanded but we
:03:47. > :03:51.cannot do it today because it's a victory for comrades Jeremy Corbyn
:03:52. > :03:56.if we do. There we see, in a sense, the weakness of ten Downing St. They
:03:57. > :04:01.can't direct this policy themselves. They are overruled by Mr Hammond
:04:02. > :04:05.from Mr 11, and it only takes about 20 Tory MPs to say, hey, this is
:04:06. > :04:10.what we want and at the very least the government has to listen to them
:04:11. > :04:13.very seriously. They have to listen to the man they have to act, because
:04:14. > :04:17.that is the fragility of the new House of Commons. We saw it last
:04:18. > :04:23.week on another issue. If you have 20 people saying hey has got to rise
:04:24. > :04:27.in the public sector, beyond the cap, pay will rise in the public
:04:28. > :04:31.sector beyond the cap, because they won't be up to get it through the
:04:32. > :04:34.House of Commons. I think there are other issues involved beyond the
:04:35. > :04:39.numerical situation in the Commons. Lots of MPs came back after that
:04:40. > :04:43.election, including Gavin Barrell who is in number ten, who lost his
:04:44. > :04:47.seat, saying teachers and others were saying we can't carry on with
:04:48. > :04:53.the pay restraint up until 2020. I think it is going to happen for a
:04:54. > :04:58.combination of reasons. What happens to deficit reduction? The deficit is
:04:59. > :05:02.going to rise this year. There were a few Tory MPs but not many who feel
:05:03. > :05:06.it is wrong for the party to capitulate, having made such a point
:05:07. > :05:10.of principle about posterity, that it looks very, very week just to be
:05:11. > :05:15.caving in. I think Steve is right. This isn't just about the maths and
:05:16. > :05:19.the -- in the House of Commons, Tory MPs are frightened in a way I have
:05:20. > :05:25.never known them frightened before, at the momentum behind Jeremy Corbyn
:05:26. > :05:31.at the moment. There is a real feeling about the Tory brand being
:05:32. > :05:34.really in a very, very difficult place at the moment, where Tories
:05:35. > :05:38.look nasty, there isn't nearly enough sympathy and it feels
:05:39. > :05:44.politically impossible to stick with the pay limits as they are. That may
:05:45. > :05:48.be one reason that will keep Tory MPs in line, because the last thing
:05:49. > :05:52.they want at the moment is an election. When they say the country
:05:53. > :05:57.doesn't need on another election it means the Tory party doesn't mean
:05:58. > :06:03.another election, isn't that right? That's right and I think the view is
:06:04. > :06:06.settled. Notwithstanding frenzied speculation in Sunday newspapers,
:06:07. > :06:12.the daily newspapers are a lot more responsible! LAUGHTER
:06:13. > :06:18.But every Tory MP says to Reza until the end of Brexit, we don't want to
:06:19. > :06:22.open Pandora's box. -- Theresa May until the end of Brexit. The problem
:06:23. > :06:29.still remains, she does have a lot less authority, which is why you get
:06:30. > :06:32.bigwigs left, right and Centre for Michael Gove to Damian Green and
:06:33. > :06:36.Justine Greening rattling that instant more money. You have to keep
:06:37. > :06:41.the balance by leaving by consensus and a general for all, which we are
:06:42. > :06:44.in danger of looking like this morning. OK, we will see.
:06:45. > :06:47.So it's not exactly what you might call "strong and stable",
:06:48. > :06:54.but after a turbulent couple of weeks, it appears
:06:55. > :06:55.the Prime Minister has brought less instability,
:06:56. > :07:00.The Government's legislative programme is in place and Brexit
:07:01. > :07:03.So has Theresa May done enough to steady the ship
:07:04. > :07:09.It's been an action-packed story of suspense, drama and intrigue.
:07:10. > :07:18.The latest instalment, hotly anticipated.
:07:19. > :07:22."I got us into this mess", she told her MPs after the election,
:07:23. > :07:25.This week, Theresa May tried to do just that.
:07:26. > :07:29.To get the Democratic Unionist Party's ten MPs to back
:07:30. > :07:31.the minority government, the PM pledged ?1 billion
:07:32. > :07:40.Opposition parties branded it a bung and as the week went on,
:07:41. > :07:42.some have their own MPs who are less than enthusiastic.
:07:43. > :07:46.Mr Speaker, I can barely put into words my anger at the deal
:07:47. > :07:52.But having signed that piece of paper, the Tories now had a tight
:07:53. > :07:55.working majority of 13 to pass key Commons votes.
:07:56. > :07:59.It was, at the very least, breathing space.
:08:00. > :08:03.So, a deep breath and, midweek, and Labour proposal that the cap
:08:04. > :08:07.on public sector pay rises should be lifted.
:08:08. > :08:14.Some Tory MPs, including ministers, agreed, in principle.
:08:15. > :08:16.Labour's challenge failed, but the Government had
:08:17. > :08:20.We will listen to what people in this house have said before
:08:21. > :08:24.The public sector pay cap, by the way, was designed
:08:25. > :08:26.to save ?5 billion for the public purse by 2020.
:08:27. > :08:30.But the policy looks like it could be on its last legs.
:08:31. > :08:33.Thursday was the big moment, the Queen's Speech, which passed,
:08:34. > :08:40.Tory support for a Labour amendment led to a government pledge to front
:08:41. > :08:43.abortions in England for women from Northern Ireland.
:08:44. > :08:48.The ayes have it, the ayes have it, unlock.
:08:49. > :08:51.The last-minute compromises in this Queen's Speech suggests
:08:52. > :08:54.the Prime Minister is acutely aware of the arithmetic in Parliament.
:08:55. > :08:58.She will have to listen more to her own MPs and they know that.
:08:59. > :09:01.One former Cabinet minister told me every time seven of us get together,
:09:02. > :09:07.And yet, after this week, the Prime Minister may not be such
:09:08. > :09:12.I think the ship is certainly steadier.
:09:13. > :09:15.I think there is a degree of what I call a rolling probation
:09:16. > :09:17.for the Prime Minister at the moment.
:09:18. > :09:25.And I think the Prime Minister's performances in the chamber,
:09:26. > :09:27.Prime Minister's Questions, we had the first one back this
:09:28. > :09:30.week, where she reasserted a deal of her authority.
:09:31. > :09:36.And I think there is a great deal of relief and respect for that.
:09:37. > :09:38.Others say the party should reflect on more
:09:39. > :09:46.It doesn't matter if we have Alexander the great or the Ark
:09:47. > :09:48.Angel Gabriel as leader, unless we have fundamental reform.
:09:49. > :09:51.At the moment, often we have these policies but it's like a whole load
:09:52. > :09:53.of clothes pegs without a washing line, bringing them together.
:09:54. > :09:56.So we need to explain what we are about.
:09:57. > :09:57.The Conservative Party is there to help working
:09:58. > :10:01.The Conservative Party is there because we are the party
:10:02. > :10:04.of the ladder of opportunity to get people up that ladder.
:10:05. > :10:07.We have a moral purpose, too, just as the Labour Party do.
:10:08. > :10:12.Several MPs told me the debate within the party is still when,
:10:13. > :10:17.Anybody who says it will definitely be Theresa May as the leader
:10:18. > :10:20.of the Conservative Party going into the next general election
:10:21. > :10:27.It might be, I have to say at the moment it's
:10:28. > :10:35.But conversely, there is absolutely no appetite whatsoever,
:10:36. > :10:38.thre are no manoeuvres going on, no operations going on to instigate
:10:39. > :10:40.a leadership challenge to have a new leader
:10:41. > :10:47.of the Conservative Party in the immediate future.
:10:48. > :10:49.One theory is that Theresa May stays on as PM to negotiate
:10:50. > :10:53.To be something of a scapegoat for what will be,
:10:54. > :10:58.at best controversial, at worst, deeply unpopular.
:10:59. > :11:02.And then, to move aside to make way for a less tarnished leader, who can
:11:03. > :11:05.take the Conservatives into the next general election.
:11:06. > :11:13.It's the immediate future Theresa May will be focused on.
:11:14. > :11:16.This week, a G20 meeting in Hamburg with other world leader chums.
:11:17. > :11:18.Back home, she can't take her friends for granted
:11:19. > :11:20.and told her own MPs, she'd serve as long
:11:21. > :11:28.Joining me now is the Minister for International Trade Greg Hands.
:11:29. > :11:35.Welcome to the programme. Good morning, Andrew. Do you agree with
:11:36. > :11:40.your old Treasury boss, George Osborne, who said easing up on
:11:41. > :11:44.austerity would risk the mistakes of the past which led Britain to the
:11:45. > :11:47.point where there was no money left? There is no change in government
:11:48. > :11:52.policy. We must live within our means. That is the right thing to
:11:53. > :11:56.do. We have reduced the deficit by three quarters since 2010. That is
:11:57. > :12:00.work that is still ongoing. It's very important that we keep budget
:12:01. > :12:04.discipline, because it's impossible to pay for our public services
:12:05. > :12:08.without having a growing economy, the taxes coming into pay for all
:12:09. > :12:11.the services people want and expect. How can you continue to cut the
:12:12. > :12:15.deficit, it's actually rising this year compared to last year, how do
:12:16. > :12:19.you continue to cut the deficit? ?1 billion to find for the DUP, you
:12:20. > :12:22.have to find the money you could in debt because you couldn't change
:12:23. > :12:25.national insurance, and if you loosen up on the public sector pay
:12:26. > :12:30.freeze, you have to find money for that as well, how do you do both?
:12:31. > :12:35.It's important to have a prudent policy, a prudent fiscal budget
:12:36. > :12:39.policy. The Chancellor will be laying out his budget in the
:12:40. > :12:43.autumn... How do you square the circle and me all these demands?
:12:44. > :12:48.Your own ministers are talking about them and yet continue with deficit
:12:49. > :12:51.reduction? It's very important to consider what we have done on public
:12:52. > :12:55.sector pay. Actually by having that cap in place we have saved around
:12:56. > :13:00.200,000 public sector jobs. We have done a lot for the lower paid public
:13:01. > :13:04.sector workers by raising the personal allowance... I'm not asking
:13:05. > :13:09.about that, I'm asking how do you meet the demand for extra public
:13:10. > :13:12.spending and continue with deficit reduction? I think over the last
:13:13. > :13:17.seven years the government has had a very good record on this, Andrew. In
:13:18. > :13:20.terms of being able to reduce the deficit... While still putting in
:13:21. > :13:24.place increases in public funding. For example, in the Conservative
:13:25. > :13:29.manifesto we pledged 4 billion extra on schools and 8 billion extra on
:13:30. > :13:34.health. We can do the two together, but it does require that budget
:13:35. > :13:37.discipline overall, making sure that something is to get out of control.
:13:38. > :13:41.You were a number two in the Treasury during George Osborne's
:13:42. > :13:45.tenure. You protected pensioners with triple lock, free bus passes,
:13:46. > :13:48.the Winter fuel allowance but trebled tuition fees on young folk
:13:49. > :13:52.made it impossible for many of them to get a foot on the property
:13:53. > :13:56.ladder. Is it any wonder young people to vote for you? I think
:13:57. > :14:00.that's an important question for us and an important question as we look
:14:01. > :14:04.at the election. That's why I asked the question, what is the answer? We
:14:05. > :14:08.have to improve our offer and young people and provide more housing. I
:14:09. > :14:12.think we need to look at more money into schools, improving our schools
:14:13. > :14:17.as we go forward and making sure that cities like mine in London are
:14:18. > :14:20.made more liveable and more cost-effective for young people. Why
:14:21. > :14:24.haven't you done that in the past seven years? Instead you have
:14:25. > :14:28.secured the pensioners and you have knocked young folk may have turned
:14:29. > :14:32.against you. Why should young people believe in capitalism if they have
:14:33. > :14:35.no chance of accruing any capital? I think what we have done over the
:14:36. > :14:40.last seven years has actually been to build more homes. We just need to
:14:41. > :14:43.build the more quickly. Your record of building homes is even worse than
:14:44. > :14:51.the last Labour government and you know that. 62% of 18-24 -year-olds
:14:52. > :14:55.voted Labour. 62%. 56 of 25-35 -year-olds. You didn't build enough
:14:56. > :15:00.houses for these people. That is one of the reasons why we are addressing
:15:01. > :15:03.that. Why haven't you addressed it? 1.5 million new homes over the
:15:04. > :15:08.course of this Parliament and what we have done that with things like
:15:09. > :15:12.starter homes, shared ownership, it's much more flexible forms of
:15:13. > :15:14.tenure to make sure homes are more attractive to younger people,
:15:15. > :15:18.particularly younger people starting off in life. Ministers have bent
:15:19. > :15:22.telling me this for seven years and you never do it. -- been telling me.
:15:23. > :15:25.That is what the programme is designed to do. We have been
:15:26. > :15:30.building more homes. We need to accelerate that. We'll phone need an
:15:31. > :15:34.open conversation about how we improve elsewhere for young people
:15:35. > :15:40.in schools and universities and so on that. OK, Brexit. You are the
:15:41. > :15:47.International Trade Minister. Will the UK leave the customs union in
:15:48. > :15:52.March 2019, and if it doesn't make its own trade deals? Our position on
:15:53. > :15:57.exit and the customs union is unchanged. What is it? To leave the
:15:58. > :16:02.single market and Customs union. But other components of free trade
:16:03. > :16:05.agreement with the European Union and customs arrangements, so we have
:16:06. > :16:10.frictionless free trade with the European Union. Will that happen by
:16:11. > :16:13.March 2019? That is the negotiation that has just started. I am not
:16:14. > :16:18.putting an end state on that. What I'm saying is the objective in this
:16:19. > :16:22.is to make sure that we frictionless trade with the EU and come to a
:16:23. > :16:26.future customs arrangements to buy it's not clear we will be able to
:16:27. > :16:30.start making our own trade deals after March 2019? Once we leave the
:16:31. > :16:36.European Union, yes, I am clear we will be able to make our own trade
:16:37. > :16:40.deals. March 2019? When we leave the single union and the customs union
:16:41. > :16:43.we come to an arrangement with the European Union. We will be able to
:16:44. > :16:51.make free trade deals but at the moment we can't because we are in
:16:52. > :16:53.the EU. Will you be able to make them if there is a transition
:16:54. > :16:56.period? That remains to be seen. You might not. We have only just started
:16:57. > :16:59.the negotiation. You had a year to think about it. To think about a
:17:00. > :17:02.transition period and when it might start and then... What we are clear
:17:03. > :17:06.about is there should be no cliff edge for businesses in the UK and
:17:07. > :17:10.the European Union and to make sure the trade continues as frictionless
:17:11. > :17:13.as possible. We don't yet know if we will be able to make our free trade
:17:14. > :17:20.deals during the transitional period? It could be postponed until
:17:21. > :17:25.2021 or 22? We don't yet know if we're going to have a transition
:17:26. > :17:28.period, to be fair. The objection in all of this is to have frictionless
:17:29. > :17:30.free trade with the European Union and come to a customs arrangement.
:17:31. > :17:46.That is the objective. You are minister for London so let's
:17:47. > :17:51.turn to the Grenfell Tower disaster. Kensington and Chelsea Council is in
:17:52. > :17:58.chaos. The leader resigned on Friday and the chief executive has gone as
:17:59. > :18:02.well. That is what I mean, it is in chaos. We're waiting for a new
:18:03. > :18:07.leader for the council because it is important for local democracy to
:18:08. > :18:15.have its say. It is quite a big thing for government to to go in and
:18:16. > :18:21.put a Council on special measures. It is in a state, you have lost the
:18:22. > :18:25.chief executive, you've lost the council leader, it is lacking in
:18:26. > :18:29.experience and surely if there is ever a time to send in the
:18:30. > :18:36.Commissioners to get a grip of this crisis, it is now? We are waiting
:18:37. > :18:42.for a new leader. There is an interim chief executive coming over
:18:43. > :18:45.from Lewisham Council. Clearly, there will be lessons to be learned
:18:46. > :18:52.and that is a matter for the public enquiry. There will be an election
:18:53. > :18:57.within the Conservative group on the council. There are very capable
:18:58. > :19:05.councillors in Kensington and Chelsea. We haven't seen much sign
:19:06. > :19:13.of that, did you have any involvement in the resignation of
:19:14. > :19:17.the council leader? I spoke to him, like all council leaders do. I spoke
:19:18. > :19:22.to him, I spoke to the previous leader and the leader of might of
:19:23. > :19:26.the council. It is natural that MPs speak to their council leaders on an
:19:27. > :19:35.ongoing basis. We know the Council opted for cheaper cladding because
:19:36. > :19:38.they want good costs. So that cheese pairing is inevitable in town halls
:19:39. > :19:46.when central government, has yours has done, cut their budget by 40%? I
:19:47. > :19:51.don't accept the premise to that because a lot of financing has been
:19:52. > :19:57.devolved back to local government. But you have cut local government
:19:58. > :20:00.financing by 40%. There is 200 billion available over the rest of
:20:01. > :20:07.this Parliament to the local councils and we believe that is
:20:08. > :20:10.fair. Kensington and Chelsea Council spent ?8.6 million on this
:20:11. > :20:17.refurbishment. It is not necessarily a shortage of funds. Indeed, they
:20:18. > :20:24.have 274 million in reserves and they put people at risk to save
:20:25. > :20:29.?300,000. If that is not a case of putting in the Commissioners, what
:20:30. > :20:32.is? That is a matter for the ongoing enquiry and the lessons to be
:20:33. > :20:36.learned from that and how it happened is a matter for the
:20:37. > :20:39.different enquiries, including the public enquiries. Thank you.
:20:40. > :20:42.Theresa May's stated aim in calling the election last month was to get
:20:43. > :20:45.a stronger hand in the Brexit negotiations - in the end, the
:20:46. > :20:49.But it's worth remembering that there's a lot at stake for both
:20:50. > :20:53.After all, the UK is a major net contributor to the EU budget
:20:54. > :20:57.and a big trading partner for the 27 countries remaining in the EU.
:20:58. > :21:08.When Mr Davis and Mr Barnier kicked off the talk a couple of weeks ago,
:21:09. > :21:10.the tone was businesslike and broadly constructive.
:21:11. > :21:13.The two men agreed that the first age of the negotiation
:21:14. > :21:17.The rights of EU citizens living here and British
:21:18. > :21:22.The financial settlement that the UK will pay the EU,
:21:23. > :21:26.On citizens rights, the EU published their proposals three weeks ago,
:21:27. > :21:29.and the UK Government came forward with their plan last Monday.
:21:30. > :21:33.The UK offer, however, was greeted with scepticism.
:21:34. > :21:49.The Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte said...
:21:50. > :21:52.But elsewhere, some EU figures have begun to worry about the financial
:21:53. > :21:54.implications of Brexit for the remaining 27 countries.
:21:55. > :21:57.Gunther Oettinger, the EU's budget Commissioner, said this week that
:21:58. > :22:00.Brexit would leave a hole in the EU's finances of at least
:22:01. > :22:05.That's because the UK is a net contributor to the budget.
:22:06. > :22:08.The UK also runs a large trade deficit with the EU.
:22:09. > :22:11.Last year we bought ?312 billion worth of goods
:22:12. > :22:20.That is 71 billion more than we sold to the
:22:21. > :22:29.So the introduction of trade tariffs would be costly for both sides.
:22:30. > :22:30.The Brexit negotiations will continue every month.
:22:31. > :22:33.Mr Davis and Mr Barnier will have their next face-to-face
:22:34. > :22:35.meeting in Brussels on Monday the 17th of July.
:22:36. > :22:37.Joining me now from Rome is Roberto Gualtieri.
:22:38. > :22:39.He's a Socialist MEP, and part of the European
:22:40. > :22:50.Welcome to the programme. The British government has published a
:22:51. > :22:57.detailed plan to protect the rights of EU citizens living in the UK. The
:22:58. > :23:04.EU response was highly critical, will that be the EU's response to
:23:05. > :23:13.everything Britain proposes? First, we welcome the intention to protect
:23:14. > :23:18.EU citizens. But, our reading of the plan is that it falls short of its
:23:19. > :23:25.own ambitions, so there are a number of issues to be clarified. I think
:23:26. > :23:35.also to be corrected. For instance, while our proposal is based on a new
:23:36. > :23:39.low, this is based on a UK low and there are no guarantees that might
:23:40. > :23:44.be changed in the future. Then there is the famous issue of enforcement,
:23:45. > :23:49.which is based on UK courts. And third, there are a number of rights
:23:50. > :23:55.which seem to be missing. For instance, a family member will have
:23:56. > :24:01.to make his own request for settled status and we consider that an
:24:02. > :24:12.conceivable there might be two different answers. My own child, for
:24:13. > :24:17.instance. You are right, there are things to discuss. This wasn't a
:24:18. > :24:22.take it or leave it offer by the British government, it was the
:24:23. > :24:26.beginning of a negotiation. But Michel Barnier said it lacked
:24:27. > :24:29.clarity and vision. Someone else said it was worrisome and the Dutch
:24:30. > :24:33.Prime Minister said there were thousands of questions left
:24:34. > :24:39.unanswered. These are not helpful responses? It is not an issue of
:24:40. > :24:44.tones, it is an issue of the start of the negotiation, indeed. We are
:24:45. > :24:51.commentating the paper, identifying what is good, and the rights
:24:52. > :24:54.similar, there are a number of loopholes and there are some more
:24:55. > :25:00.from the issues relating to the legal status... It just sounds very
:25:01. > :25:07.constructive. Instead of saying, this is a good start, but there is
:25:08. > :25:14.much more to do. But you just sound negative. No, I don't think so. My
:25:15. > :25:20.first sentence was, I welcome the intention to protect the rights of
:25:21. > :25:25.EU citizens. That is a very constructive sentence. Then one has
:25:26. > :25:29.to be consistent and to find a mechanism which fully guarantees the
:25:30. > :25:32.right and the negotiation, and they are exactly for this purpose.
:25:33. > :25:36.Brussels is now worrying about how to fill the huge financial hole that
:25:37. > :25:44.Britain's departure will create in EU revenues. There is a number of
:25:45. > :25:48.ideas being floated at the moment, introduce an EU VAT supplement or
:25:49. > :25:52.take an axe to the common agricultural policy which is about
:25:53. > :26:00.40% of the budget. Does that appeal to you? There are two different
:26:01. > :26:06.problems. The first is to define the settlement, which has to be an
:26:07. > :26:10.integral part of the withdrawal agreement. We are not looking for
:26:11. > :26:17.fines, we are looking for only commitment to be paid. Then there is
:26:18. > :26:22.the issue for the future, were of course the union will have to
:26:23. > :26:29.reassess and redefine and improve its mechanism in its own resources
:26:30. > :26:36.so it can have an efficient finances in the future. So what do you want,
:26:37. > :26:44.and EU VAT or cutting money to Italy? I think the union deserves a
:26:45. > :26:49.better system of resources. This is for the future and we are working on
:26:50. > :26:54.that. Do you agree with the bustle's commission every member of the EU
:26:55. > :27:04.should adopt the euro by 2025? Yes, of course it is possible. Like it
:27:05. > :27:09.was for the United Kingdom, for Denmark, but in principle, the
:27:10. > :27:20.members of the union members of the union. So we think it would be good
:27:21. > :27:24.to a allowed the euro. There is the political will of the country to be
:27:25. > :27:30.taken into account but I think the euro has proven to be a successful
:27:31. > :27:35.currency, protecting citizens. I expect the membership will be
:27:36. > :27:41.broadened in the future. Why is it's GDP below what it was 15 years ago
:27:42. > :27:49.and the industrial output is below them what it was in 1984 so the euro
:27:50. > :27:55.hasn't been successful to you. You now run a massive deficit with
:27:56. > :28:01.Germany, where is the success? It should not be confused, the currency
:28:02. > :28:08.with the economic crisis we had. The also mistake in the conductor of the
:28:09. > :28:14.economic policy. We are changing austerity politics for more growth
:28:15. > :28:19.policies. Your country hasn't grown since you join the euro. The
:28:20. > :28:23.economic policy is another thing, so we need to change the economic
:28:24. > :28:28.policy. The common currencies is a strong protection for all of us.
:28:29. > :28:39.Your country hasn't grown since you joined the euro. I don't think your
:28:40. > :28:45.assessment is correct. Yes it is. By the way now, Italy is growing and
:28:46. > :28:50.that is good. Europe is growing. In 2017 it is growing more than the US
:28:51. > :28:59.and the UK. Do you accept if Britain had stayed in and been forced to
:29:00. > :29:06.join the euro in 2025, there is no public opinion support for joining
:29:07. > :29:10.the euro here? This is a joke. Whenever they say, if the UK had
:29:11. > :29:19.stayed in the union, the UK would be forced to join the euro. This is not
:29:20. > :29:24.true. That is what the Brussels delegation said. The Brussels
:29:25. > :29:33.commission said it thinks everybody in the EU should adopt the euro by
:29:34. > :29:39.2025. As I said, no. If you want to make a political statement, you are
:29:40. > :29:43.free to do so. But the fact is, the member of the delegation to the euro
:29:44. > :29:47.are supposed to join. Members who have decided to stay out of the
:29:48. > :29:53.euro, are free to stay out of the euro whilst they are in the EU. That
:29:54. > :29:56.is perfectly possible. Thank you for speaking to us from Rome today.
:29:57. > :29:59.Jeremy Corbyn has had a bit of a spring in his step
:30:00. > :30:01.since the election, after doing much better than pretty much
:30:02. > :30:04.Indeed, despite the party's internal splits, Labour
:30:05. > :30:08.But earlier this week, Labour's divisions on Brexit
:30:09. > :30:11.were thrust into the open as 50 Labour MPs defied the party line
:30:12. > :30:14.to vote in favour of a backbench amendment calling for the UK
:30:15. > :30:17.to remain members of the EU single market and customs union.
:30:18. > :30:20.One of those rebels was Labour MP Stella Creasy who had this to say
:30:21. > :30:27.What a lot of us are saying is we want, in these negotiations,
:30:28. > :30:33.To have a government that has forced through a hard Brexit,
:30:34. > :30:36.especially in the light of the general election result,
:30:37. > :30:38.with the public very clearly rejecting Theresa May's approach,
:30:39. > :30:43.And across the house, again, there are MPs saying,
:30:44. > :30:47.We don't know what is possible to achieve, but what we do know
:30:48. > :30:50.is if you walk in the room and you throw away something
:30:51. > :30:52.like single market membership, which 650,000 jobs in London alone
:30:53. > :30:55.are part of that, it's irresponsible.
:30:56. > :31:00.I'm joined now by the Shadow Justice Secretary Richard Burgon.
:31:01. > :31:10.Welcome to the programme. Thank you. On Thursday 49 MPs, almost a fifth
:31:11. > :31:14.of the Parliamentary party, rebelled against the leadership over Brexit,
:31:15. > :31:18.including three shadow ministers, were subsequently sacked by Jeremy
:31:19. > :31:24.Corbyn. Labour is now more divided on Brexit than the Tories? I don't
:31:25. > :31:27.think so. I think the amendment was regrettable and premature, and I
:31:28. > :31:30.agree with the Labour deputy leader Tom Watson, when he said he was
:31:31. > :31:34.disappointed about that. Actually, the difference in the Labour Party,
:31:35. > :31:38.the difference of nuance on the single market between those who
:31:39. > :31:42.definitely want to be a member of the single market, including some
:31:43. > :31:48.people who backed that amendment, and those who want tariff free
:31:49. > :31:52.access to the single market. The reality is, not just on Brexit, but
:31:53. > :31:56.a whole host of issue, it's the Conservative government that is
:31:57. > :32:01.completely divided and that odds with itself. If it is just nuance
:32:02. > :32:08.and you are not divided, Mark our card. The Chancellor said single
:32:09. > :32:12.access market mentorship is not on the table, the Brexit secretary said
:32:13. > :32:15.it should be and another shadow ministers speaks about seeking
:32:16. > :32:21.reformed membership of the European market and the customs union. Which
:32:22. > :32:25.one is Labour policy? Brexit is a settled issue, in that Labour
:32:26. > :32:29.accents Britain is leaving the European Union but we believe
:32:30. > :32:32.Britain has to have a relationship with the institutions. Which one is
:32:33. > :32:40.Labour policy of these three statements? Labour believes that we
:32:41. > :32:44.should be having a job 's first Brexit. A Brexit that puts the
:32:45. > :32:48.economy first. As our manifesto says, Britain's leaving the European
:32:49. > :32:55.Union, for example that also means the freedom of movement of labour,
:32:56. > :32:59.and the UK's part of that, will end when Britain leads the EU. Do you
:33:00. > :33:04.want freedom of movement to end? What we do want to end is the
:33:05. > :33:09.practice of unscrupulous employers, only recruiting workers from abroad
:33:10. > :33:16.and also an scrupulous employers trying to use the free you movement
:33:17. > :33:19.of labour to breakdown -- drag down terms and conditions. You can do
:33:20. > :33:24.that if we are in or out of the single market. Do you want freedom
:33:25. > :33:28.of movement to end? It is inevitable the freedom of movement will end. Do
:33:29. > :33:31.you want it to do is a question that that is the difference. Your
:33:32. > :33:37.manifesto said what you just said, I asked you if you want it to end?
:33:38. > :33:44.What Labour wants is Brexit that puts jobs on the economy that is.
:33:45. > :33:47.What Labour doesn't want is to put immigration and fall 's immigration
:33:48. > :33:51.targets as the Conservatives did on the table. What is the answer? It's
:33:52. > :33:55.quite simple, the free movement of labour will end in terms of when the
:33:56. > :34:00.UK leads the European Union. Labour's priority is not any other
:34:01. > :34:04.issue than jobs on the economy being put first and that is really
:34:05. > :34:07.important. Putting jobs on the economy does, should we leave or
:34:08. > :34:13.stay in the customs union? I think we need to leave all the options
:34:14. > :34:20.open on that. We need to negotiate without putting options off the
:34:21. > :34:24.table. You can't negotiate unless you know what your aim is, is it to
:34:25. > :34:29.leave or stay in the customs union? British manufacturers gain a lot,
:34:30. > :34:35.and their workers, in jobs, in terms of the current arrangement with a
:34:36. > :34:39.customs union. What we want is an equivalent benefit. We want the
:34:40. > :34:42.benefits of being in the customs union, even if when we leave the
:34:43. > :34:47.European Union we can't be in the customs union. These are the kind of
:34:48. > :34:50.demands that Theresa May should be making, and her ability to do so,
:34:51. > :34:54.I'm afraid, has been severely weakened by the fact you can't even
:34:55. > :34:58.command a majority now after she asked for a majority to do so. You
:34:59. > :35:02.have criticised the government for saying no deal is better than a bad
:35:03. > :35:07.deal, which I understand. But does that mean Labour's position is that
:35:08. > :35:12.any deal is better than no Deal? Any deal better than no Deal? No, no. It
:35:13. > :35:16.would be strange to say any deal is better than no Deal. We want a good
:35:17. > :35:23.deal for Britain. But if you can't get that? We are confident a Labour
:35:24. > :35:27.government could get that, we want a job 's first Brexit that puts jobs
:35:28. > :35:31.first and puts living standards first and doesn't use, as the
:35:32. > :35:35.Conservative government has tried to do, Brexit as a smoke screen to try
:35:36. > :35:42.and create some kind of low regulated tax haven... You could be
:35:43. > :35:46.in government for very shortly and the in these negotiations. If the EU
:35:47. > :35:52.does not budge on demanding 1 billion euros divorce Bill, would
:35:53. > :36:00.you just sack that for the sake of any deal or say no? -- suck it up?
:36:01. > :36:04.Labour won't be sucking up to anyone, the EU or anyone else. A
:36:05. > :36:08.Labour government would negotiate hard for Britain. What if they
:36:09. > :36:14.wouldn't budge? On the demand for 100 billion euros? What would you
:36:15. > :36:19.do? These are hypothetical scenarios, and these negotiations
:36:20. > :36:24.are nuanced and compensated. Labour would campaign, in opposition, hold
:36:25. > :36:27.the government to account for and in government deliver jobs first
:36:28. > :36:32.Brexit, that puts the economy does. The kind of post-Brexit Britain we
:36:33. > :36:35.want to see is one in which there is investment in industry, assistance
:36:36. > :36:40.from the government in industry and are more equal society with high
:36:41. > :36:44.wage jobs. Ian Wright Fricke, your new party says Labour is currently
:36:45. > :36:51.too broad a church. Do you agree with him? I think the Labour Party
:36:52. > :36:57.has always been a broad church. He says too broad? It has always been a
:36:58. > :37:01.broad church, socialists and trade unionists and long may it be so. You
:37:02. > :37:05.don't agree? The Labour Party is a broad church and it should be. Do
:37:06. > :37:09.you support lowering the threshold of MPs needed, that you need to get
:37:10. > :37:13.to stand for the Labour leadership? It is going to be debated at your
:37:14. > :37:20.autumn conference? This question isn't seen as dead about the
:37:21. > :37:23.leadership election many people predicted would occur after the
:37:24. > :37:27.general election won't be occurring. Do you support? Tom Watson says
:37:28. > :37:32.Jeremy Corbyn is secure for many years. I do believe all parties,
:37:33. > :37:35.including the Labour Party, need to be made more democratic. We have a
:37:36. > :37:40.membership of well over half a million and I would like the members
:37:41. > :37:46.to have more say in our party's policies and in the way the party is
:37:47. > :37:51.run. Jeremy Corbyn spoke at a left-wing rally in London yesterday.
:37:52. > :37:57.Among the crowd there were placards calling Theresa May a murderer,
:37:58. > :38:00.pictures of Mrs May's head on communist flags and Trotskyite
:38:01. > :38:04.banners. Are these the kind of people Mr Corbyn should be
:38:05. > :38:07.associating himself with, if he is a Prime Minister in waiting? The
:38:08. > :38:11.reality is when you speak at an outdoor meeting, you have no control
:38:12. > :38:15.who turns up or who is walking past. You have no control over the kind of
:38:16. > :38:19.banners people make. I understand the hundred and 50,000 members of
:38:20. > :38:26.the public at that event. No, there won't, 15,000. I spoke the night
:38:27. > :38:30.before the general election, in an event in Leeds city centre. For all
:38:31. > :38:34.I know, there could have been all sorts of people walking past,
:38:35. > :38:38.watching. The key thing is to judge Jeremy by his words, Judge Labour by
:38:39. > :38:43.our words on what we've done. We do believe in a new kind of politics.
:38:44. > :38:48.Also politics committed to changing our society for the better. OK,
:38:49. > :38:51.Richard Burgen, thank you for joining us today. It is coming up to
:38:52. > :38:57.11:40pm. -- 11:40am. We say goodbye to viewers
:38:58. > :39:00.in Scotland, who leave us now for
:39:01. > :39:02.Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in 20
:39:03. > :39:04.minutes, the Week Ahead... First though, the Sunday
:39:05. > :39:07.Politics where you are. Coming up later - a local
:39:08. > :39:14.authority in turmoil. We'll have the latest
:39:15. > :39:22.on the crisis engulfing one of the Tories' flagship boroughs,
:39:23. > :39:24.Kensington and Chelsea, over its handling of
:39:25. > :39:25.the Grenfell Tower disaster. I'll be discussing that
:39:26. > :39:28.with a Kensington councillor - former deputy leader
:39:29. > :39:29.of the authority - as well as our MP guests
:39:30. > :39:32.for the morning Clive Efford, Labour member for Eltham
:39:33. > :39:44.and the Conservative member It is worth picking up on comments
:39:45. > :39:49.to Andrew from Greg Hands, he said he won't be sending in a hit squad
:39:50. > :39:54.of Commissioners. It's quite a big thing to put a council on special
:39:55. > :39:57.measures, what do you say to that? I say they have to restore confidence
:39:58. > :40:01.of the local community, particularly those directly affected by the fire.
:40:02. > :40:05.They have clearly failed to do that. What we have is an administration in
:40:06. > :40:10.Kensington and Chelsea that have shown that they have an inability to
:40:11. > :40:16.be able to connect. Something has to be done. I support the idea of
:40:17. > :40:23.picking people from other local government bodies to go in there and
:40:24. > :40:28.provide an oversight of what's going on in Kensington and Chelsea, to try
:40:29. > :40:33.and restore that confidence. What could we lose from doing it? Why
:40:34. > :40:37.not? By all means send in people who can help an expert who can help sort
:40:38. > :40:40.the situation now, because it's a devastating set of circumstances.
:40:41. > :40:44.But to go into an elected council and shut it down and sending
:40:45. > :40:47.unelected commissioners, I don't think that will help anybody. That's
:40:48. > :40:51.more of a political gesture and I don't think the government should
:40:52. > :40:54.consider doing that. However, clearly Kensington and Chelsea have
:40:55. > :40:57.a lot to answer for and need to get a grip of the situation quickly.
:40:58. > :41:00.More on that in a moment, but let's turn now to knife crime.
:41:01. > :41:04.After years of going down, it's going up again in London.
:41:05. > :41:06.This week the Mayor, Sadiq Khan, launched a new strategy
:41:07. > :41:12.His Conservative opponents said it was too little and too late.
:41:13. > :41:17.Just to my left here is a children's play area, now a crime scene.
:41:18. > :41:20.He was murdered here on the Monks Hill Estate.
:41:21. > :41:25.Ten Londoners were murdered with knives last month,
:41:26. > :41:28.part of an escalation that's seen knife crime go up 11%
:41:29. > :41:33.Behind each statistic, a personal tragedy.
:41:34. > :41:35.Dwayne Jones ran a boxing club in Brixton, helping young
:41:36. > :41:39.people off the streets, until his life was cut short.
:41:40. > :41:42.I literally saw Dwayne 45 minutes before it happened.
:41:43. > :41:46.I just popped to the shop and said, "I'll be back soon, son".
:41:47. > :41:49.I got back with the shopping and only for two youths to say
:41:50. > :41:57.Went to the scene, and saw my son on the floor having open surgery.
:41:58. > :42:00.It's caused me, I'd now say I have a disability, which I have.
:42:01. > :42:03.It's not one that you can see on the outside,
:42:04. > :42:06.I'm going through trauma, shock, grief, hair loss.
:42:07. > :42:13.Today, Dwayne's mother Lorraine runs the gym he started.
:42:14. > :42:15.Part of their work is taking on young people referred
:42:16. > :42:19.by the police and giving them structure and discipline.
:42:20. > :42:22.Ant was sent here after he was found carrying a knife at school.
:42:23. > :42:24.The police eventually dropped the case against him
:42:25. > :42:36.Knife crime is so common in London, Ant says, that between 60-70%
:42:37. > :42:40.of boys will have carried a blade to a school like his at some point.
:42:41. > :42:42.Young people, some of them are scared for their lives bacause
:42:43. > :42:49.You could be a good person but something
:42:50. > :42:53.It was here at this gym in the week where the Mayor launched his
:42:54. > :42:57.It promises to give any school which wants one a metal detector,
:42:58. > :43:00.to increase stop and search, to name and shame retailers selling
:43:01. > :43:02.to minors, to improve coordination between organisations and spend
:43:03. > :43:04.an extra ?625,000 tackling the problem - taking
:43:05. > :43:11.Sadiq Khan says he wants to stop knife crime in London.
:43:12. > :43:12.Of course, that's a very laudable thing.
:43:13. > :43:17.But is it really what this strategy is going to do?
:43:18. > :43:20.For it to work, the Mayor is calling on the Government to reverse
:43:21. > :43:23.?22 million worth of cuts that have been made to youth
:43:24. > :43:29.Them cutting down the funding regarding the youth projects,
:43:30. > :43:33.So now you've cut their hope in half, you've cut
:43:34. > :43:35.their dreams in half, you've cut their
:43:36. > :43:39.When we were growing up there was a number of youth centres
:43:40. > :43:42.that were available to us and that kept us off the estate.
:43:43. > :43:44.We were inside the youth centres, we had community leaders
:43:45. > :43:47.that we could speak to, that had previously gone down
:43:48. > :43:52.But Conservatives have accused the Mayor of playing politics.
:43:53. > :43:54.If Sadiq Khan is really that concerned about youth services,
:43:55. > :43:59.they say, it's well within his powers to find the money himself.
:44:00. > :44:02.When you talk about stopping knife crime, it's a great news sound bite,
:44:03. > :44:05.we all want to stop knife crime, it's very important to Londoners,
:44:06. > :44:09.but when you only give ?600,000 to it, in the context of a budget
:44:10. > :44:19.And questions too about the Mayor's record on stop and search.
:44:20. > :44:21.When he was running for office he said he'd do everything
:44:22. > :44:27.in his power to reduce it, but now he's Mayor it's going up.
:44:28. > :44:28.There are issues around stop and search.
:44:29. > :44:31.It has to be accountable, it has to be transparent,
:44:32. > :44:33.and it's also very important that those officers
:44:34. > :44:35.who are undertaking stop and search, do so in an intelligent way
:44:36. > :44:38.and are confident to use the powers that they have.
:44:39. > :44:41.What we've found with talking to young people is their real issue
:44:42. > :44:44.with stop and search is how it's carried out.
:44:45. > :44:47.And while the Mayor says his plan is an ambitious one,
:44:48. > :44:49.it hasn't stopped his critics from saying it's too
:44:50. > :45:05.Joining us now is Patrick Green, from the Ben Kinsella Trust.
:45:06. > :45:13.It is early intervention, what is missing? Something we haven't done
:45:14. > :45:17.enough on. Talking to young people at the start. Stopping young people
:45:18. > :45:23.from offending in the first place. We work with 10,000 people over the
:45:24. > :45:29.last five years and when we ask them why they carry a knife, 99 times out
:45:30. > :45:34.of 100 they say protection. One group of young people safe they will
:45:35. > :45:38.carry a knife because they are fearful of being victimised, they
:45:39. > :45:41.have been victimised before and they feel threatened. They are young
:45:42. > :45:46.people, when you work with them, they don't want to carry a knife so
:45:47. > :45:51.in terms of early intervention you can work with them and help them
:45:52. > :45:56.find other ways. For the second group, our young people who are
:45:57. > :46:07.offending. They have drifted into offending and are carrying knives to
:46:08. > :46:10.protect themselves against other gang members. The work with them is
:46:11. > :46:12.much more intensive. But social health approach, looking at the
:46:13. > :46:15.issues around young people is important. If you do that, you drive
:46:16. > :46:23.down knife crime figures. What about diversion? The first instance is the
:46:24. > :46:30.challenge, we have too many young people offending, knife crime is up
:46:31. > :46:35.24%. Hospital admissions is up 13% with knife crime. We have a lot of
:46:36. > :46:39.work to do in terms of diversion but we have to stop young people
:46:40. > :46:45.offending in the first place. Enforcement, do we need to get
:46:46. > :46:49.tougher? After all the early intervention and the diversion
:46:50. > :46:54.activities, if you continue to offend, enforcement has to be right
:46:55. > :46:57.and proper. We have to ensure the law is used appropriately. Does
:46:58. > :47:03.there need to be more stop and search otherwise this figure will be
:47:04. > :47:07.out of control? Stop and search is interesting, if you carry a knife
:47:08. > :47:12.you should do so in the knowledge there is a high likelihood of you
:47:13. > :47:18.getting caught. Using police stop and search powers is to ensure that
:47:19. > :47:23.happens. We certainly need to ensure stop and search continues. It is
:47:24. > :47:30.only one part of Mike crime. It will not sought knife crime out by
:47:31. > :47:34.itself, but we need intelligence led stop and search. Police are now
:47:35. > :47:38.wearing video monitors. That should make a big difference in terms of
:47:39. > :47:42.their interaction with young people. Le a lot to get our teeth into,
:47:43. > :47:48.Andrew Russell, do you think police are going in and targeting in
:47:49. > :47:53.people? No, the police need to do more, but we need to give them the
:47:54. > :47:58.confidence and power to do their job. In my constituency, we are
:47:59. > :48:02.seeing a spike in knife crime. Local people are worried, but they want
:48:03. > :48:07.the police to go out and do their job and not be held back by any
:48:08. > :48:12.constraints. Stop and search is the right way forward, you have to do it
:48:13. > :48:16.sensitively and it should be intelligence led. But the police
:48:17. > :48:21.need to take this more seriously. There has been an uplift in knife
:48:22. > :48:24.crime and it is unacceptable. Burkini needs to be more stop and
:48:25. > :48:28.search and sometimes the police will get it wrong but they will annoy
:48:29. > :48:34.people who aren't carrying things? This is not just about the police,
:48:35. > :48:39.there is a series of levels. What do you say about stop and search to
:48:40. > :48:44.begin with? It needs to be intelligence led. There was a lot of
:48:45. > :48:49.consideration around stop and search after the MacPherson enquiry. When I
:48:50. > :48:55.spoke to my local police, they said using the forms they had to fill in,
:48:56. > :48:59.which this government scrapped, developed a lot of intelligence at a
:49:00. > :49:03.local level. The cuts to safer neighbourhood policing where police
:49:04. > :49:08.officers got to know their local communities, got to know what was
:49:09. > :49:11.going on, could pick up intelligence and those instances where gang
:49:12. > :49:21.members were preying on young people in the community. Do you agree with
:49:22. > :49:24.that? I am not an MP, but we want more policing, more re-sources for
:49:25. > :49:29.policing. The Mayor of London and the government have a duty to make
:49:30. > :49:32.sure people are protected. Do you think we will get them now, because
:49:33. > :49:37.of the precarious nature of the government at the moment?
:49:38. > :49:42.Governments have to balance the books. Whoever is in power, even if
:49:43. > :49:45.Jeremy was Prime Minister, he couldn't promise spending the
:49:46. > :49:50.country cannot afford. We have to live within our means, but make sure
:49:51. > :49:56.sufficient funding is available for essential things. In London, we can
:49:57. > :50:01.go no further in terms of cutting back on the police. Can I take you
:50:02. > :50:05.up on this, local councils may have had to cut budgets severely and
:50:06. > :50:11.youth services to an extent, it would be unusual, but the mayor
:50:12. > :50:15.could put up his precept to put money back into the services if he
:50:16. > :50:22.so wished with council tax? That would be a matter for him. What do
:50:23. > :50:26.suggest, you are a close ally? I am, he will have a lot of priority so I
:50:27. > :50:30.cannot sit here and say which priorities he should give that money
:50:31. > :50:36.to if he chooses to put the precept up. But he is calling for more
:50:37. > :50:40.investment in youth services. We went through this before in the
:50:41. > :50:45.1980s, I was working with young people at that time. When we see
:50:46. > :50:50.cuts of this kind, the austerity cuts we have seen, one of the first
:50:51. > :50:54.things that get squeezed is the non-statutory services that is the
:50:55. > :50:59.youth service. We are paying a price for that. We need those responsible
:51:00. > :51:06.adults within the community who can intervene and provide guidance young
:51:07. > :51:11.people. Final word? The answer is sustainability. We have run knife
:51:12. > :51:16.crime initiatives before, central government have done it on a lease
:51:17. > :51:20.two occasions. We have driven knife crime down and the ball gets
:51:21. > :51:24.dropped. Other things come along and we distracted. I don't want to come
:51:25. > :51:27.back here in a few years' time and be saying the same thing. Thank you
:51:28. > :51:29.for coming in. Tenants in blocks next to Grenfell
:51:30. > :51:33.tower won't have to pay rent until at least the end of the year,
:51:34. > :51:36.it's been announced. They've been without hot
:51:37. > :51:38.water since the fire. The move by Kensington
:51:39. > :51:40.and Chelsea Council looked like a first step in trying
:51:41. > :51:42.to restore credibility among its residents,
:51:43. > :51:44.after another difficult week. Councillors clashed with the press
:51:45. > :51:46.over a closed meeting, the leader and his deputy resigned,
:51:47. > :51:50.and the talk turned to a taskforce Tanjil Rashid takes
:51:51. > :52:06.us through events. Is this the first good decision you
:52:07. > :52:10.have made... On Friday, the leader of Kensington
:52:11. > :52:13.Chelsea Council made his exit from politics over his response
:52:14. > :52:15.to the Grenfell Tower tragedy. Pressure had been mounting
:52:16. > :52:17.on Councillor Paget-Brown ever since protesters stormed the town
:52:18. > :52:19.hall in anger, at what they And his decision to cut short
:52:20. > :52:23.Friday's Cabinet meeting, the first since the fire two weeks
:52:24. > :52:26.ago, earned him a rebuke I have therefore decided to step
:52:27. > :52:31.down as leader of the council, They will appoint a new deputy
:52:32. > :52:38.leader and Cabinet. But that's not what the
:52:39. > :52:40.Mayor Sadiq Khan wants. There is support on the ground
:52:41. > :53:11.for a completely new There were problems of gas pipe
:53:12. > :53:15.installation, stairwells that will not accessible and there were
:53:16. > :53:19.hundreds, literally hundreds of fire doors missing. The estimate by
:53:20. > :53:27.Camden Council said they need at least 1000 fire doors. In this
:53:28. > :53:34.atmosphere of intense scrutiny across London, it falls on Mr Javid
:53:35. > :53:38.whether or not to put councillors in Kensington and Chelsea. He said he
:53:39. > :53:40.will be keeping a close eye on the situation.
:53:41. > :53:42.Joining us now, former Mayoral adviser to Boris Johnson,
:53:43. > :53:47.a former deputy leader of Kensington council, and still a Conservative
:53:48. > :53:58.What would you have done differently in terms of the aftermath if you had
:53:59. > :54:02.been the leader? I am not claiming I would have done things better or
:54:03. > :54:08.differently. The important point to start with in any discussion, the
:54:09. > :54:14.council did let people down. There were heroic actions on behalf of
:54:15. > :54:17.individual council officers, but the overall organisation let people
:54:18. > :54:22.down. The Prime Minister said it was a failure of the state at every
:54:23. > :54:28.level. What was wrong? There is going to be an enquiry. The council
:54:29. > :54:33.was overwhelmed by the scale and didn't recognise sufficiently early
:54:34. > :54:40.it was being overwhelmed. What you think the reason for that is? It is
:54:41. > :54:45.a lack of people on the ground, we have had your reliance on voluntary
:54:46. > :54:48.services to help most of these people, is that austerity, cuts or
:54:49. > :54:54.not caring that much about this part of the community, compared with the
:54:55. > :54:58.majority of fairly well-to-do people in Kensington and Chelsea? I don't
:54:59. > :55:03.think that is fair and if you look at the quantity of donations, food
:55:04. > :55:08.and money that has come in, much of it from people throughout the whole
:55:09. > :55:13.of Kensington and Chelsea. There is a sense of solidarity. What went
:55:14. > :55:16.wrong at the time, is not something for me to pre-empt but the
:55:17. > :55:20.organisation was faced with a challenge, the scale of which it
:55:21. > :55:30.didn't immediately recognise. We have to acknowledge that and then
:55:31. > :55:33.ask where we go from there and that is the issue we need to think about.
:55:34. > :55:36.I can take your point on that, but you felt Nicholas Paget Brown should
:55:37. > :55:38.go. You won't just saying that because of the handling of the
:55:39. > :55:43.meeting with the press last week, but had the handling of everything
:55:44. > :55:46.been adequate up until then? What motivated me finally to say
:55:47. > :55:52.something, because he clearly did not want to go of his own volition.
:55:53. > :55:58.The team running the aid and support effort which represents the
:55:59. > :56:01.emergency civil response team, responsibility for that is to be
:56:02. > :56:06.handed over back to the council in the course of the next week or so,
:56:07. > :56:10.according to his statement. I simply didn't think it was credible you
:56:11. > :56:15.could go to the people of North Kensington and said the people
:56:16. > :56:19.responsible for your support and aid are the people who let you down.
:56:20. > :56:23.There had to be a change at the top for the council to stop being
:56:24. > :56:28.defensive and start owning the errors it made. Where do you go from
:56:29. > :56:33.there? The call for commissioners to be appointed? This is not an
:56:34. > :56:37.outrageous or unreasonable thing to say, but it is coming very much from
:56:38. > :56:43.the top and senior figures in the Labour Party. I don't hear any calls
:56:44. > :56:47.for that from local Labour councillors, who represent this area
:56:48. > :56:53.and who I think haven't sufficiently been brought into... You have
:56:54. > :56:58.already said, responsibility is going to be coming back to the
:56:59. > :57:01.council quite soon, that was the intention under Nicholas Paget
:57:02. > :57:06.Brown. It wasn't something that gave you confidence, what is wrong with
:57:07. > :57:10.the council having support and other people coming in and working
:57:11. > :57:14.alongside? They will not be taking over, they will be working
:57:15. > :57:21.alongside. As Andrew said earlier, it is right, the council does
:57:22. > :57:24.welcome support. Above all this, the government is not walking away from
:57:25. > :57:30.this, there is still a task force on the government is looking carefully
:57:31. > :57:34.at it. There are lots of agencies, the DVLA, Home Office, passport
:57:35. > :57:39.people. I am not suggesting these people are walking off the job, we
:57:40. > :57:43.need that help. But the call for commissioners is actually a call in
:57:44. > :57:48.effect, for the abolition of the council as a political entity. In
:57:49. > :57:56.the same way that when Tower Hamlets fell into the hands of people who
:57:57. > :58:02.were... Are the calls for this politically motivated? I am not
:58:03. > :58:07.going to say that. It is not coming from local people. Local people want
:58:08. > :58:15.to have their voices heard. It is not necessarily the council. They
:58:16. > :58:21.are not saying imposed people on us from outside. They are not saying
:58:22. > :58:25.that? They are absolutely saying they have no confidence in their
:58:26. > :58:30.local authority. They have said they want something done about that. But
:58:31. > :58:35.what they said about the mayor's call, which was a reasonable thing
:58:36. > :58:39.in the circumstances, was for them, the local people to be consulted
:58:40. > :58:44.about who come in and took over in the interim. They have absolutely no
:58:45. > :58:48.confidence in the current administration. Daniel, you call for
:58:49. > :58:52.the leader of the council to stand down, what is your plan? Who
:58:53. > :58:57.replaces him? Who is the person you have confidence in who can restore
:58:58. > :59:06.confidence of Kensington and Chelsea residents. Quickly. There is going
:59:07. > :59:13.to be... You have no name? There will be an election process in the
:59:14. > :59:17.next few days. The council, like all local authorities, the council has
:59:18. > :59:24.the urn and deliver trust. You are not entitled to trust. The council
:59:25. > :59:28.has to be given, in my view, as an institution for years to become, has
:59:29. > :59:32.to be given the chance to do that. One of the worries I have about
:59:33. > :59:36.appointing government commissioners to run this, you deny and delay the
:59:37. > :59:40.opportunity for that reconciliation between the council and the people
:59:41. > :59:45.who have been badly affected. I think that chance should be given,
:59:46. > :59:50.but it has to be earned. If it isn't, then something will have to
:59:51. > :59:56.happen like that. This could have happened in any council, it could
:59:57. > :00:00.have been in Greenwich or Haver ring. Because this is years of
:00:01. > :00:02.mismanagement, complacency, not particularly by Kensington and
:00:03. > :00:07.Chelsea but lots of councils have got to look at their safety. It
:00:08. > :00:12.could happen anywhere because of years of complacency and the lack of
:00:13. > :00:15.investment in local government? In local government but also national
:00:16. > :00:19.government of all parties. Let's stop naming and shaming people and
:00:20. > :00:23.pointing a finger in the political way, let's look at long-term
:00:24. > :00:27.solutions to ensure these things don't happen again. That is what
:00:28. > :00:31.people want us to do to make sure we don't have this horrific situation
:00:32. > :00:35.again. I don't want to turn this into a political argument. I want to
:00:36. > :00:38.talk about how we solve this for the future and make sure people are
:00:39. > :00:46.saved in whichever borough they live. This was a huge tragedy and it
:00:47. > :00:48.would have overwhelmed the resources of any local authority. It is
:00:49. > :00:54.important local authorities show their ability to work with other
:00:55. > :00:58.local authorities. The next day, after the Grenfell fire, local
:00:59. > :01:02.authorities were ringing Kensington and Chelsea, offering their
:01:03. > :01:05.assistance. They didn't respond. When the Prime Minister said there
:01:06. > :01:09.was a failure of the state at all levels, that is probably one of the
:01:10. > :01:15.things she was thinking about. That will come out further in in enquiry.
:01:16. > :01:19.Do you not accept and think that what is reflected was a pre-existing
:01:20. > :01:23.failure to reach out to this community? There was no sense of
:01:24. > :01:30.resilience, no relationship which enabled this authority and
:01:31. > :01:33.leadership to cope? Actually, I think the council probably would
:01:34. > :01:37.have made the same errors of judgment if the fire had taken place
:01:38. > :01:41.in a tower block in any part of the borough, because the scale of the
:01:42. > :01:46.disaster actually overwhelmed the council and they did not think it
:01:47. > :01:49.through correctly. That was an error, there were failings. I am not
:01:50. > :01:55.here to say everything went well. But I don't think it was related to
:01:56. > :01:59.the fact it was this tower, as opposed to another tower. Andrew,
:02:00. > :02:04.back to you. So, is the Conservative Party
:02:05. > :02:10.undergoing a re-brand? Can Jeremy Corbyn unite
:02:11. > :02:12.the Labour party? And has Michael Gove reinvented
:02:13. > :02:23.the political interview? Let's start with this conservative
:02:24. > :02:28.speeches. Damian Green, other people talking about the need to do some
:02:29. > :02:32.hard thinking about tuition fees, home ownership, a pitch for the
:02:33. > :02:37.young and many other things. That's normally the kind of speech as
:02:38. > :02:40.politicians give when you lose an election? It's ironic, it sort of
:02:41. > :02:45.feels like they have lost the election. I keep having to remind
:02:46. > :02:49.people that Tories got nearly 60 seats more than Labour got. This
:02:50. > :02:53.feels like the beginning of a repositioning, you are right. I
:02:54. > :02:58.wouldn't have said they are embarking on a rebrand but they need
:02:59. > :03:01.to. What was remarkable about the David Cameron years, particularly at
:03:02. > :03:06.the beginning of David Cameron's leadership of the party, was despite
:03:07. > :03:10.all the efforts he made to modernise the Conservative Party with the
:03:11. > :03:14.pitch on environment and big society and all of that stuff, is when you
:03:15. > :03:19.actually continued to poll people about what they thought of the
:03:20. > :03:22.Tories, they still thought the Tories represented the wealthy and
:03:23. > :03:27.were for the wealthy. It was only camera and that made the difference,
:03:28. > :03:30.and that hasn't gone away. I don't understand how they do this. To do
:03:31. > :03:33.blue sky thinking, to have a real rethink of what you stand for, is
:03:34. > :03:38.normally what you do in opposition. It's tougher to do when you are in
:03:39. > :03:41.power. I can see you could do it if you were a hundred seat majority and
:03:42. > :03:45.not much to worry about, but when you're living hand to mouth in a
:03:46. > :03:49.hung parliament, I don't see how these politicians have the bandwidth
:03:50. > :03:54.to survive and do this blue sky thinking. And they won't have. They
:03:55. > :04:02.will become exhausted very quickly, and by that I mean physically
:04:03. > :04:06.exhausted. As a minority Labour government of 1974-79 became
:04:07. > :04:13.exhausted quickly. Also, to think about this rethinking and rebranding
:04:14. > :04:16.means a coordinated approach, it's not. You will have individual
:04:17. > :04:19.ministers reflecting on what went wrong and what they need to do to
:04:20. > :04:25.put it right. Although they technically won more seats, they are
:04:26. > :04:33.a lot more marginal seats now than before. Why they don't want and
:04:34. > :04:36.another election. I think it will be, as I say, they haven't got a
:04:37. > :04:40.strong leader in place at the moment, it will be frantic and
:04:41. > :04:49.uncoordinated when they get the space to do it. And very reactive.
:04:50. > :04:52.Yes. Reactive events from the other parties, like Stella Creasy, and
:04:53. > :04:57.their own party. They have a leader who is not just weak and survival is
:04:58. > :05:03.the name of the game for her at the moment, she is not noted for policy
:05:04. > :05:11.development or policy rethink at all. She is, actually. Really? So
:05:12. > :05:14.sorry to burst this bubble. Look at the Tory party manifesto. I'm not
:05:15. > :05:18.saying I backed it or not, but the Tory party manifesto in the
:05:19. > :05:23.election, it was incredibly radical. They had an entire chapter called
:05:24. > :05:28.international generational failures. Arguing or solving or trying to
:05:29. > :05:38.solve a huge amount of problems they might have. That wasn't her, it
:05:39. > :05:44.wasn't actually her. Is the bubble still intact? It does, there is a
:05:45. > :05:48.lot of radical thinking going on. The problem they've got, they
:05:49. > :05:51.absolutely disastrously failed to sell it. The wrong person in charge
:05:52. > :05:55.to sell it, she doesn't look like much of a radical. They failed to
:05:56. > :05:58.make the point when they were given the chance in front of the
:05:59. > :06:02.electorate. They need to find a better way to communicate. Reports
:06:03. > :06:06.this morning on developing their own social media offensive. It has only
:06:07. > :06:13.been around for about seven years! Social media. Meanwhile, Labour, all
:06:14. > :06:17.the Labour people I speak to on the Corbin Bryant jet, they think now
:06:18. > :06:21.they just need to stick to the script. -- on the Jeremy Corbyn
:06:22. > :06:25.project. If the election was before the end of the year, they'd pretty
:06:26. > :06:29.much fight on the manifesto they just fought on? They would virtually
:06:30. > :06:36.publish the same manifesto if it was this year. They don't need to do
:06:37. > :06:40.more thinking? I think they do, because they didn't win either. The
:06:41. > :06:46.context of the next election will be different when it comes. There's no
:06:47. > :06:52.doubt, for now, they feel a sense of small letter M momentum and
:06:53. > :06:57.justifiably so after the election result. There are dangers of
:06:58. > :07:00.complacency and hubris, because they didn't win, but if there was an
:07:01. > :07:10.election in the autumn, they were published as a manifesto with some
:07:11. > :07:15.confidence. Is there any sense the honeymoon overfed Jeremy Corbyn? We
:07:16. > :07:20.saw the discipline problem he had midweek with those MPs who backed
:07:21. > :07:25.the Chuka Umunna amendment. In times gone by he had to live with it? It
:07:26. > :07:28.would be a great mistake to think there's a real sense of unity in the
:07:29. > :07:32.Parliamentary party, the problems that continued. It depends if you
:07:33. > :07:36.are one of the Labour MPs who in by Jeremy Corbyn because you thought he
:07:37. > :07:40.was unelectable, and those have gone a little quiet, or you didn't like
:07:41. > :07:43.him because you fundamentally disagreed with his policy
:07:44. > :07:49.principles. Those people are still not reconciled to his programme and
:07:50. > :07:55.agenda. This is more than Mr Corbyn I would suggest. The people who run
:07:56. > :08:04.the Labour Party are from the left. They are not going to consolidate...
:08:05. > :08:06.Whether Mr Corbyn falls under the proverbial bus, why make a
:08:07. > :08:10.difference, they will consolidate their grip, and we will see that at
:08:11. > :08:14.the party conference, and even without Mr Corbyn, this is now a
:08:15. > :08:20.party which is clearly of the left. They are in control. Absolutely, you
:08:21. > :08:23.heard it from Richard Burgon, talking about the need to give
:08:24. > :08:30.members more democratic control, therefore not the MPs, who are still
:08:31. > :08:34.moderate or Blairite, whatever you want to call it. There will be an
:08:35. > :08:37.almighty tussle. Jeremy Corbyn had given this very unexpected
:08:38. > :08:41.semi-victory, didn't win that election but did better than he
:08:42. > :08:44.thought, he could either be thoroughly consensual and get people
:08:45. > :08:48.like Yvette Cooper and Chuka Umunna back on the front bench and move
:08:49. > :08:53.towards, away from the hard left of the centre. All he could press on
:08:54. > :09:00.determine with the hard left vision and that is precisely what he's
:09:01. > :09:07.doing. That means undoubtably another war. You didn't win but
:09:08. > :09:12.you've done really well, much better than 80% of your own party said you
:09:13. > :09:16.would do. Indeed, they were all carping and getting ready for you to
:09:17. > :09:21.fail, so they could move in on you. Why would you not to do but you know
:09:22. > :09:26.you still have a problem with the Parliamentary party but you'd
:09:27. > :09:29.consolidate your control of the conference, the National executive
:09:30. > :09:34.committee, the grassroots, where you are in control? I understand what he
:09:35. > :09:37.did with the Shadow Cabinet. To that extent, Tesak prominent members of
:09:38. > :09:40.the Shadow Cabinet who have stood with him up until that election, to
:09:41. > :09:45.bring these figures in who hadn't been with him, would have been an
:09:46. > :09:49.act of betrayal, which is not his style. I can understand. There just
:09:50. > :09:56.wasn't the space to bring them in. Whether later on he needs to be
:09:57. > :09:59.pragmatic, as well as this conviction, Messiah figure, is a
:10:00. > :10:05.different question. I think there will be times when he will need to
:10:06. > :10:08.be. In the end, you can't run divided parties. A leader, one of
:10:09. > :10:12.the responsibilities of leadership, is to try as much as possible to
:10:13. > :10:18.bring people together. As well as just crushing them. I guess my point
:10:19. > :10:23.is, this is not a party that suddenly reverts to where it was
:10:24. > :10:27.after all when Mr Corbyn goes. This is a different Labour Party. That's
:10:28. > :10:31.the point I'm making. It is a different Labour Party and in some
:10:32. > :10:35.ways therein lies the opportunity for the Conservatives. There is very
:10:36. > :10:38.clear blue water there. What the Conservatives have totally failed to
:10:39. > :10:43.do is present themselves as a party that offers anything other than
:10:44. > :10:46.misery. A party that offers opportunity, aspiration and isn't
:10:47. > :10:52.just about making everything harder. The Daily Mail got it right when
:10:53. > :11:00.they said Theresa May has a gloom bucket. We're running out of time
:11:01. > :11:03.but I want to show you something here which may change the art of the
:11:04. > :11:05.Sunday political interview. Take a look at this.
:11:06. > :11:07.Are you absolutely clear that our environmental and food
:11:08. > :11:10.standards will not be loosened in any way, as a result of leaving
:11:11. > :11:12.the EU and doing free trade deals with other
:11:13. > :11:17.Up until the end of this Parliament, farmers have been guaranteed that
:11:18. > :11:22.You have suggested that very, very wealthy farmers,
:11:23. > :11:25.who get huge amounts of money from the EU at the moment,
:11:26. > :11:28.like Sir James Dyson and others, will get less money under
:11:29. > :11:36.Were you very, very surprised to be brought back?
:11:37. > :11:42.Michael Gove, thank you very much indeed.
:11:43. > :11:51.Well, this could change the art of the interview. Yes! Thanks a lot.
:11:52. > :11:56.Different politicians can do different things. Michael Gove is a
:11:57. > :11:58.big character, has a lot of licensed to say yes when he doesn't
:11:59. > :12:02.necessarily mean yes and we allow him to get away with it. Theresa May
:12:03. > :12:07.trying to pull that trick, not so much. It would be nice in my
:12:08. > :12:11.expensive she said yes or no to a question I asked! It would certainly
:12:12. > :12:16.make these programmes a lot shorter. LAUGHTER
:12:17. > :12:19.Nothing new about this. I listen to Michael Fallon tell the Armed Forces
:12:20. > :12:24.this week there was plenty of money in their budgets, it doesn't make it
:12:25. > :12:27.any more true. I am all in favour of those short interviews because there
:12:28. > :12:30.would be more room for the panel! You could have three minute
:12:31. > :12:36.political interviews and then half an hour of the panel afterwards. We
:12:37. > :12:40.promise not to do yes or no answers. They don't have to stop at yes or
:12:41. > :12:45.no, but I quite like when someone says yes or no and then explained
:12:46. > :12:48.why it is yes or no. So many politicians of all parties answer
:12:49. > :12:53.the question without getting to the yes or no bit. You just get a river
:12:54. > :12:56.of fudge. Tom makes a good point. Michael Gove is newly confident,
:12:57. > :13:01.he's just been reappointed to the Cabinet which he himself said he
:13:02. > :13:07.didn't expect. Therefore for the time being he is unsackable. They
:13:08. > :13:12.are all unsackable, they can all do this now! It does give you a bit
:13:13. > :13:16.more space for that yes or no direction, you know, which could
:13:17. > :13:21.land others, as Tom suggested, in trouble. He is in a strong place. I
:13:22. > :13:26.have feeling it won't reinvent the Sunday interview! That said this
:13:27. > :13:33.weekend, Wimbledon starts tomorrow so Joe will be back at 11 o'clock. I
:13:34. > :13:33.will be back at the same time next Sunday.
:13:34. > :14:06.Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:14:07. > :14:08.MAN: What makes you two make different from each other?
:14:09. > :14:17.but I don't, like, love it as much as Lucy.
:14:18. > :14:20.Oh, Arthur lives down the hill and I live down the hill.
:14:21. > :14:24.Good at counting and I'm good at hiding.
:14:25. > :14:38.SI KING: Let me guess, you're seeing a garden, aren't you?
:14:39. > :14:41.DAVE MYERS: Well, we're seeing a kitchen!
:14:42. > :14:44.With culinary inspiration from the great outdoors...
:14:45. > :14:48...we'll be cooking up some top nosh live in the open air.