:00:40. > :00:45.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:46. > :00:47.Donald Trump says he wants to do a "powerful" trade deal
:00:48. > :00:51.Theresa May says other countries are ready to talk too.
:00:52. > :00:54.But could the transitional deal with the EU that some are pushing
:00:55. > :00:56.for scupper the Prime Minister's plans?
:00:57. > :01:01.Having defied expectation in last month's general election,
:01:02. > :01:04.are Jeremy Corbyn and his allies about to purge the party
:01:05. > :01:11.The deadliest fire in London since the Second World War has
:01:12. > :01:13.devastated a community and shocked Britain, but will the political
:01:14. > :01:16.storm that's blown up in its aftermath help uncover
:01:17. > :01:27.In London as City Hall argues for a special relationship with Europe
:01:28. > :01:45.Havering council are about to vote on breaking away from the capital.
:01:46. > :01:52.If we are darking today we apoll jierks it could be a power cut or
:01:53. > :01:56.the BBC is trying to save money with its fuel bill! Assuming you can see
:01:57. > :01:56.them... And with me - as always -
:01:57. > :02:00.for TV's second most keenly watched on-screen relationships
:02:01. > :02:02.after Love Island, the Sunday Politics panel -
:02:03. > :02:04.Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer They'll be tweeting
:02:05. > :02:10.throughout the programme. So - Donald Trump says a trade
:02:11. > :02:12.deal with UK could be Theresa May says that
:02:13. > :02:15.other world leaders, including those of China,
:02:16. > :02:18.India and Japan, are also keen to do President and PM were speaking at
:02:19. > :02:23.the G20 summit of the world's major President and PM were speaking at
:02:24. > :02:27.the G20 summit of the world's major But could the transitional
:02:28. > :02:30.deal that some want, that would keep the UK in the EU's
:02:31. > :02:33.single market and Customs Union for several years after exit,
:02:34. > :02:35.put paid to those plans? Here's what the man likely to be
:02:36. > :02:38.the next Lib Dem leader - Vince Cable - told the Marr show
:02:39. > :02:45.earlier. I'm beginning to think that
:02:46. > :02:48.Brexit may never happen, The problems are so enormous,
:02:49. > :02:55.the divisions within the two major parties are so enormous,
:02:56. > :02:59.I can see a scenario We're joined now from
:03:00. > :03:07.Shropshire by the former Conservative Cabinet Minister
:03:08. > :03:12.and leading Brexit Ogise, it could be a power cut or
:03:13. > :03:15.the BBC is trying to save money with its fuel bill! Assuming you can see
:03:16. > :03:18.them... Good morning to you, Vince Cable says that he thinks Brexit may
:03:19. > :03:23.now not happen, what do you say to that? What is new? Vince Cable
:03:24. > :03:28.always wanted to stay in the European Union, he is chucking
:03:29. > :03:33.buckets of water round, we had a huge vote last year, we had an
:03:34. > :03:38.enormous vote in the House of Commons, 494 votes to trigger
:03:39. > :03:43.Article 50, we had an election campaign in which the two main
:03:44. > :03:48.parties took 85% of the vote they back the speech and leaving the
:03:49. > :03:52.customs union and the single market and the ECJ and Vince Cable's party
:03:53. > :03:56.went down in votes as did the other parties that want to stay in the
:03:57. > :04:01.European Union. So Vince is behind history, we are going to leave, we
:04:02. > :04:05.are on target, Michael Gove triggered leaving the 1964 London
:04:06. > :04:11.convention so we can take back control of the seas and bring back a
:04:12. > :04:14.sane fishing policy and more important getting environmental
:04:15. > :04:21.gained in our marine environment, so... You think we are still heading
:04:22. > :04:24.for the exit but Mrs May called the election because she wanted a
:04:25. > :04:28.mandate for her version of Brexit. She didn't get it. Surely you can't
:04:29. > :04:32.just continue with business as usual? Well, we have been over the
:04:33. > :04:39.election, we did not get the number of sees we wanted but on votes, we
:04:40. > :04:43.got 13.7 million, that is more than the great Blair landslide. You had
:04:44. > :04:50.an overall majority and you lost it. That is a fact. I said that. We know
:04:51. > :04:55.that. So you didn't get the mandate. We got the vote! We got a lot votes
:04:56. > :04:58.and so did the Labour Party. You know we are in a Parliamentary
:04:59. > :05:02.system where what matters is the number of seats you get in the
:05:03. > :05:05.Commons, you know enough about the British constitution to know a that
:05:06. > :05:10.is what determines the mandate. Not the number of votes, we are not a
:05:11. > :05:14.Presidential system. I am First Minister throughly wear
:05:15. > :05:18.of that. 85% of the election voted for parties that wanted to leave. If
:05:19. > :05:23.you take votes in the Commons last week on the Queen's Speech not a
:05:24. > :05:27.single Conservative MP abstained or voted against and the Labour Party
:05:28. > :05:35.unwisely, Chuka Umunna triggered and amendment wanting us to stay in the
:05:36. > :05:40.customs union and got hammered. So, I am clear that we have to deliver
:05:41. > :05:46.this, much the most important point in all this, is if we do not deliver
:05:47. > :05:53.a proper Brexit which means leaving the single market, leaving the
:05:54. > :05:58.customs union and the jurisdiction of the ECJ, there will be appalling
:05:59. > :06:01.damage to the integrity of the whole establishment. Not just political,
:06:02. > :06:07.you, the media, and the judicial establishment. Some would say that
:06:08. > :06:12.damage has already been done in other area, let us look at the
:06:13. > :06:15.detail. Under Article 50 Britain leaves the EU in 20 months which
:06:16. > :06:21.means the deal will have to be done in 15 or 16 months to allow for
:06:22. > :06:26.people to approve it in the various Parliaments and so son. Progress has
:06:27. > :06:31.the been glacial. We have only just begun. Why should there not be a
:06:32. > :06:36.transitional deal that keep some of the current arrangements in place to
:06:37. > :06:43.mitigate this falling off a cliff? As Liam said in the Commons, Liam
:06:44. > :06:48.who? Liam Fox, this should be one of the easiest ever deals to conclude,
:06:49. > :06:53.because already, we have zero tariffs, already we have complete
:06:54. > :07:00.conformty on standards and already, those who are negotiating with us
:07:01. > :07:05.have an enormous surplus, the Germans sold an enormous number of
:07:06. > :07:12.cars, so that is the basis on which, if you look at Nafta... We haven't
:07:13. > :07:20.even started talking about free trade yet. That is not on the agenda
:07:21. > :07:26.yet. Let me finish. If you look at Nafta, that took 14 months, we are
:07:27. > :07:31.starting on a basis of mutual recognition of all our standard and
:07:32. > :07:35.zero tariffs so yes, there will be an implementation period but it is
:07:36. > :07:39.very very important politically this is concluded fast, as a huge
:07:40. > :07:43.economic imperative as well, because it is uncertainty about this that
:07:44. > :07:48.will damage future investment and job, the quicker we get on with it
:07:49. > :07:52.and we know where we are going and we can reach out to the world, we
:07:53. > :07:56.can take advantage of the fact stated on the European Commission
:07:57. > :08:01.website that 9 a 5% of the world's growth is going to come from outside
:08:02. > :08:07.European Union, which is what we are seeing, we have seen sales go from
:08:08. > :08:13.61% to 43% and it is tumbling to 43%. We cannot take advantage of
:08:14. > :08:20.these wonderful opportunities in the wider world... Why not? Why not?
:08:21. > :08:26.Germany does. Because they can't conclude free trade deals. Germany
:08:27. > :08:29.runs a balance of payment surplus, it finds it possible to trade with
:08:30. > :08:35.the rest of the EU and with the rest of the world. It has a bigger
:08:36. > :08:41.surplus than China, if Germany can do both why can't we? They can't.
:08:42. > :08:49.They can't conclude deal, we Trump wants to do a deal with us. You saw
:08:50. > :08:53.Theresa May sitting down with the economies of the future, India,
:08:54. > :09:01.China, South Korea, these are all longing to do more business with us,
:09:02. > :09:04.we can only do that once we are out of the customs union, that is vital
:09:05. > :09:09.for the future of this country, that is where the future growth is. The
:09:10. > :09:13.business in this country says we should stay in the single market and
:09:14. > :09:23.the customs union, at least through a transition period. Does that count
:09:24. > :09:28.for nothing, is Tory party now so antebusiness it ignores the wealth
:09:29. > :09:32.creators? I think what you are saying is that the CBI which
:09:33. > :09:37.represents very large organisations has made that statement, but talking
:09:38. > :09:40.to business widely, and smaller private businesses which dominate
:09:41. > :09:44.the economy, what is vital on this is to have a rapid implementation
:09:45. > :09:51.period. That is what is important. And there has to be clarity of where
:09:52. > :09:55.we are going, if we are in permanent limbo which will take a enormous
:09:56. > :09:58.amount of negotiation and will take ratification by the 27 countries and
:09:59. > :10:04.the European Parliament as well as our own, that will drag things out.
:10:05. > :10:09.What we need to do is a clean Claire statement of reciprocal free trade
:10:10. > :10:13.which should be really pretty easy to negotiate because we have that,
:10:14. > :10:18.we have conformty of standard, we have an implementation period. That
:10:19. > :10:22.needs to be done rapidly. Latest by the next election. OK, we shall see
:10:23. > :10:25.how simple it turns out to be. Thank you for joining us here.
:10:26. > :10:32.What do you make of this increasing talk of transition period in which
:10:33. > :10:36.it is not clear, we remain full members of the single market, full
:10:37. > :10:40.members of the customs union? Which came we cannot conclude very
:10:41. > :10:47.quickly, in Mr Trump's word a free trade deal? This is where the battle
:10:48. > :10:53.is now heading, between Brexiteer, levers, re-levers and the lot of it.
:10:54. > :10:58.This will be really what the only thing we could achieve in the next
:10:59. > :11:02.negotiations, what has changed since the general election which you were
:11:03. > :11:06.touching on there, is of course Brussels in the year 2017 are no
:11:07. > :11:11.longer negotiating with Theresa May, they are negotiating with the House
:11:12. > :11:14.of Commons and the you know majority for a softer Brexit, so this will
:11:15. > :11:19.begin, the transition deal will define the rest of deal, the rest of
:11:20. > :11:23.the final relationship, so getting the transition on the right
:11:24. > :11:28.trajectory is crucial, hence why you have Philip Hammond making a major
:11:29. > :11:31.play to try and keep one foot in the EU, if not necessarily in the custom
:11:32. > :11:36.union and the single market and everyone else says get out. These
:11:37. > :11:39.are the opening skirmishes on what will certainly be the nettle that
:11:40. > :11:44.will will be grasped round about some time between October and spring
:11:45. > :11:47.next year. Are you worried that the election result, the fact that she
:11:48. > :11:51.didn't get this mandate that she had looked for and she has ended up in a
:11:52. > :11:56.weaker position than she was before the election, is going to make
:11:57. > :12:00.Brexit more difficult, it is going to muddy the water, it means her
:12:01. > :12:07.idea of Brexit is not necessarily the one that become Brexit? Yes I am
:12:08. > :12:12.worried are about as a Brexiteer, the same remain yaks would have been
:12:13. > :12:21.trying to scupper the will of the British people as expressed in June
:12:22. > :12:26.2016. Now they might succeed. I don't think any will succeed. We
:12:27. > :12:30.have to stop this nonsense and the media included, of this talk of soft
:12:31. > :12:34.Brexit an transition period. We have a transition period once we are out
:12:35. > :12:38.when we are leading to the next process, with have to be out of the
:12:39. > :12:43.single market, and not under the European Court of Justice. All
:12:44. > :12:49.within the two years, all by March... That happens automatically,
:12:50. > :12:53.then we can agree for a two, three year max, three year period we will
:12:54. > :12:59.have a position as we move to the new deal, but I don't think there
:13:00. > :13:02.many Leave voters, most Remain voters accept that result, unlike
:13:03. > :13:06.the people like the CBI who are fighting against it still, they will
:13:07. > :13:12.accept anything more than that. I think Owen Paterson is right. We are
:13:13. > :13:16.in a situation where we will face some serious disflus the
:13:17. > :13:21.establishment, the political world, the Melissa Reidia if we don't obey
:13:22. > :13:28.the will of the people. What do you make of the reports in the Sunday
:13:29. > :13:32.papers, it was only ten days ago, two weeks' ago Mr Hammond was going
:13:33. > :13:35.to be the caretaker leader, that is a story that didn't seem to last
:13:36. > :13:41.to be the caretaker leader, that is 48-hour, but what do you make of the
:13:42. > :13:47.remain MPs on both sides of the House, plus peers, are going to try
:13:48. > :13:54.to derail this repeal act, that the Government needs to push EU law on
:13:55. > :13:59.to the UK statute book. I I think they will use it to at certain key
:14:00. > :14:03.points to attempt to defeat the Government, not over the whole
:14:04. > :14:09.thing, this summer reminds me so much of the summer of 92 who the
:14:10. > :14:14.Maastricht Treaty coming into a fragile John Major Government, and
:14:15. > :14:17.people then were plotting, in the opposite direction, Eurosceptics to
:14:18. > :14:22.try and stop that. He won with a huge percentage of the vote. Tiny
:14:23. > :14:31.majority, 23, bigger than she would have died for that. A shock victory.
:14:32. > :14:34.The The summer was full of talk and plotting, some which came to
:14:35. > :14:39.fruition in the sessions after and some will come into fruition from
:14:40. > :14:42.this autumn on ward where you will see alliances across the Commons
:14:43. > :14:46.manned the Lords, there will be moments of high Parliamentary drama,
:14:47. > :14:53.I think. Sounds like a long hot autumn.
:14:54. > :15:03.An a long hot autumn, and winter. Winter too? I thought it was all
:15:04. > :15:04.global warming. This will add to the temperature!
:15:05. > :15:07.Now, Jeremy Corbyn may not have won the election,
:15:08. > :15:09.but by confounding almost everyone's expectations he is unassailable
:15:10. > :15:10.as Labour leader for the foreseeable future.
:15:11. > :15:15.So what does that mean for his MPs, most of whom - just a year ago -
:15:16. > :15:23.Labour's new chairman and key cupping Ally said last week the
:15:24. > :15:28.party may be too broad church. He also seemed to endorse the idea of
:15:29. > :15:32.deselecting labour MPs critical of the leadership by saying if you get
:15:33. > :15:37.deselected there must be a reason. But he has since wrote back from his
:15:38. > :15:40.comments in another interview. Chris Williamson, the newly appointed
:15:41. > :15:44.labour frontbencher said some of his colleagues in the Parliamentary
:15:45. > :15:50.party think they have a God-given right to rule. He also said that if
:15:51. > :15:54.MPs don't support the leadership's programme, local constituency
:15:55. > :15:59.parties should find someone else who will. And in the seat of liveable
:16:00. > :16:04.waiver treats this week, left wing supporters of Jeremy Corbyn won
:16:05. > :16:10.several positions on the committee. One said she must get on board quite
:16:11. > :16:15.quickly now, and also publicly apologise for not supporting Mr
:16:16. > :16:25.Corbyn in the past. Some Labour MPs rushed to Luciano Berger's defends.
:16:26. > :16:29.Elsewhere, a list of 49 Labour MPs was published, and they said these
:16:30. > :16:33.usual suspects should join the Liberals. The list included
:16:34. > :16:37.prominent former frontbencher is like Chris Leslie, Chuka Umunna and
:16:38. > :16:42.tidying -- Heidi Alexander. And this is what the Shadow
:16:43. > :16:44.Education Secretary and Jeremy Corbyn ally,
:16:45. > :16:47.Angela Rayner, had to say earlier. Anyone that talks of deselecting
:16:48. > :16:49.any of my colleagues, frankly they need to think
:16:50. > :16:51.about actually, who are Who are making the problems
:16:52. > :16:58.for our communities at the moment? Who have made those disastrous
:16:59. > :17:00.policies that are hurting the people It doesn't help them if we're
:17:01. > :17:04.fighting each other. We're joined now from
:17:05. > :17:05.Sheffield by former Labour Cabinet Minister,
:17:06. > :17:16.Caroline Flint. Welcome to the programme. Labour
:17:17. > :17:23.frontbencher Chris Williamson has said, where Labour MPs don't support
:17:24. > :17:27.the leadership's programme it's incumbent on local members to find
:17:28. > :17:38.someone else who will. What do you make of that? I think it's very sad
:17:39. > :17:44.that talk of deselection is the line people are taking. We had an
:17:45. > :17:50.election where 262 Labour MPs, very different ones, have all won a
:17:51. > :17:54.mandate from their electorate and our job is, as Angela Rayner said
:17:55. > :17:57.this morning, is to focus on a government that is in disarray and
:17:58. > :18:00.how we can learn from the general election to broaden our appeal but
:18:01. > :18:05.also develop our policy is ready in time for the next election whenever
:18:06. > :18:11.that is called so I think all talk of deselection is misplaced and
:18:12. > :18:18.doesn't help Labour. But do you feel a purge of what is often referred to
:18:19. > :18:22.as the moderates in your party is now inevitable? No, because we have
:18:23. > :18:25.been here before in the 1980s when talk of deselection was suggested,
:18:26. > :18:31.it didn't happen in the way people thought it would, and I do believe,
:18:32. > :18:40.hearing how Ian Lee very, and I have worked with him in the 2010, 2015
:18:41. > :18:47.government and I have worked with Chris Williamson, Ian has already
:18:48. > :18:51.refined what he said, and what he's clearly was this deselection talk
:18:52. > :18:58.and the way to go ahead on it is not the right way forward. We to focus
:18:59. > :19:02.on looking outwards to understand that we have across the party
:19:03. > :19:05.hard-working Labour MPs with maybe different views across the Labour
:19:06. > :19:16.political spectrum, and I would have to say that Luciana is one of the
:19:17. > :19:20.most hard-working MPs in Parliament and homework on mental health is
:19:21. > :19:26.outstanding. That may be true, let's look at Luciana Berger's
:19:27. > :19:31.constituency. One of the committee members on her committee says she
:19:32. > :19:38.now has to get on board quite quickly. And even publicly apologise
:19:39. > :19:46.for past disloyalty. The direction of travel is clear, isn't it? That
:19:47. > :19:50.is one person on a committee in one constituency... Where there is a
:19:51. > :19:59.majority for that point of view now. I don't think there is, and the
:20:00. > :20:02.truth is... They took nine seat. Her constituency is all of the members
:20:03. > :20:06.in that constituency and what I would say, and I don't know this
:20:07. > :20:14.individual, look at the track record of Luciana and what she has done.
:20:15. > :20:19.Jeremy, in the 20 years I have been an MP under both Tony Blair and
:20:20. > :20:23.Gordon Brown, voted against the Labour whip on numerous occasions,
:20:24. > :20:28.he has been very upfront and honest about this, do you know in those 20
:20:29. > :20:33.years I never heard anybody say about Jeremy or anybody else who
:20:34. > :20:37.didn't vote with the Labour whip that they should face deselection or
:20:38. > :20:42.apologise. I think that represents the broad church of the Labour Party
:20:43. > :20:46.and we should look at what brings us together rather than differences on
:20:47. > :20:51.policy point of view and we should be looking outwards and dealing with
:20:52. > :20:55.that and working on it. You have said that three times but it has not
:20:56. > :20:59.happened and it may be that the people around Mr Corbyn, they think
:21:00. > :21:04.moderates like you, your day is over. You lost the 2015 election
:21:05. > :21:09.badly, you allowed Jeremy Corbyn to stand as leader, you failed to stop
:21:10. > :21:14.him twice, you thought he would make a mess of the June election and he
:21:15. > :21:18.didn't. Can you blame his supporters for wanting a career out of people
:21:19. > :21:22.who took these positions? I think there are some people who supported
:21:23. > :21:28.and still support Jeremy who feel that way but I don't believe they
:21:29. > :21:31.represent the people who supported Jeremy, and I don't believe Jeremy
:21:32. > :21:36.thinks this is in the best interests of the party. Only a few weeks ago
:21:37. > :21:41.John McDonnell praised my work on tax transparency. Since my election
:21:42. > :21:45.I have bumped into Jeremy and we have had a chat about what happened
:21:46. > :21:54.in the election and Jeremy recognises that we were up against
:21:55. > :21:58.an arrogant Tory party and has said to me he does understand this and
:21:59. > :22:05.said to the broader Parliamentary Labour Party... If I could just
:22:06. > :22:14.finish... What has he said about deselection? For example he said to
:22:15. > :22:20.me that he recognised that we have won in numerous places in
:22:21. > :22:24.outstanding circumstances but he's also said to me that he recognises
:22:25. > :22:27.that we need to broaden our reach and understand why we were
:22:28. > :22:34.working-class voters. That says to me that that is a leader who is up
:22:35. > :22:37.for and open to looking at the reasons why we were successful and
:22:38. > :22:43.the reasons we weren't and he wasn't closing down conversation on that. I
:22:44. > :22:48.take him on his word on that. He has not said that publicly. What we need
:22:49. > :22:52.from a leader is to challenge our party about where to go next and he
:22:53. > :22:57.has said that, Diane Abbott has said at a conference I was at a few weeks
:22:58. > :23:01.ago that we need now to look at our manifesto and look more clearly
:23:02. > :23:04.issues around tax and spend policies because obviously clearly now we
:23:05. > :23:08.have more time to look at those issues and also we may be facing a
:23:09. > :23:12.very different election when the time comes. That's what I want from
:23:13. > :23:17.the leadership team, talk about how we improve our message and reach,
:23:18. > :23:26.and by doing that get away from what song, a minority I have to say, are
:23:27. > :23:29.saying about deselection. Corbynistas like Paul Mason think
:23:30. > :23:35.moderates like you were to blame for the defeat. He said moderates were
:23:36. > :23:47.always attacking Mr Corbyn, that is quite popular view in the Jeremy
:23:48. > :23:51.Corbyn wing. I think that is Paul Mason's view and he is fundamentally
:23:52. > :23:56.wrong. When we look at the results of the last election, we can see a
:23:57. > :24:01.continuing from 2015 where Labour is losing support among older voters
:24:02. > :24:08.and what we see is in this election in 2017 Labour has... I think we are
:24:09. > :24:12.at our highest point amongst the middle-class voters compared to
:24:13. > :24:18.where we were in 1979 but the Tories are highest among working-class
:24:19. > :24:22.voters since 1979 as well. Those working-class voters weren't voting
:24:23. > :24:26.for a more left alternative to Labour and sadly they were voting
:24:27. > :24:29.Tory and we have to address that because our party is this broad
:24:30. > :24:32.church and representing working-class people is at the heart
:24:33. > :24:36.of what the Labour Party is about and that's a discussion we need to
:24:37. > :24:42.have. That is the depth of discussion we need to get into. That
:24:43. > :24:49.would put's with a fighting chance of taking on a Tory party that is in
:24:50. > :24:51.disarray. Caroline Flint, thank you for joining us.
:24:52. > :24:53.This week it was announced that the Grenfell Tower inquiry
:24:54. > :24:56.would hold its first public hearings in September, as it prepares
:24:57. > :24:58.to begin to examine what caused the tragedy.
:24:59. > :25:00.But some have warned that the situation now needs
:25:01. > :25:01.to be de-politicised, or it will damage
:25:02. > :25:05.In a moment we'll hear from the MP for Kensington and Chelsea
:25:06. > :25:07.where the Grenfell Tower fire took place.
:25:08. > :25:10.But first Emma Vardy looks at how political arguments have played
:25:11. > :25:25.a significant part in the aftermath of this terrible event.
:25:26. > :25:30.When you come here and you actually see it, your immediate thoughts
:25:31. > :25:34.are about the people, not about the politics.
:25:35. > :25:38.What happened up there is just so difficult to comprehend.
:25:39. > :25:45.But in the days after this tragedy, there was such outrage
:25:46. > :25:47.at governments and authorities, it became a political
:25:48. > :25:49.storm that those in power struggled to respond to.
:25:50. > :25:54.We want justice, we want justice, we want justice...
:25:55. > :26:01.People vented their anger outside Kensington town Hall.
:26:02. > :26:04.A visit to the Grenfell site by Theresa May saw her forced
:26:05. > :26:12.At Prime Minister's Questions, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn linked
:26:13. > :26:18.What the tragedy of Grenfell Tower has exposed is a disastrous
:26:19. > :26:22.And speaking at Glastonbury, Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell
:26:23. > :26:29.Those families, those individuals, 79 so far and there will be more,
:26:30. > :26:40.were murdered by political decisions that were taken over recent decades.
:26:41. > :26:42.I can't remember a major national tragedy that has been politicised
:26:43. > :26:48.I think using terms like murder is completely reckless
:26:49. > :26:56.The key thing is that we try to ascertain the facts
:26:57. > :27:00.this tragedy occurred to ensure it can never be repeated.
:27:01. > :27:02.And as soon as you introduce emotive phrases or emotive accusations
:27:03. > :27:05.or emotive allegations of that nature, then the discourse
:27:06. > :27:11.The whole debate around the tragedy becomes politicised and it makes it
:27:12. > :27:20.Some argue the political language that was used was wrong and helped
:27:21. > :27:24.to ramp up the vitriol in an unhelpful way, but
:27:25. > :27:29.for others, it was entirely justified.
:27:30. > :27:32.That's what an opposition party is for, it's to challenge
:27:33. > :27:38.the Government and to ask the right questions and I think people
:27:39. > :27:40.round here would say thank goodness, there's somebody in politics
:27:41. > :27:44.Pilgrim Tucker had helped Grenfell Tower residents campaign
:27:45. > :27:45.for building improvements in previous years, and returned
:27:46. > :27:49.I've been to meetings before the fire and I've been
:27:50. > :27:53.to meetings since the fire, attended by ordinary residents
:27:54. > :27:57.with no involvement in politics and they are saying very political
:27:58. > :28:00.things about land in London and property ownership in London,
:28:01. > :28:04.Had we campaigned harder, would we have prevented this?
:28:05. > :28:09.Fire safety campaigners say they were trying to draw attention
:28:10. > :28:14.to certain issues long before what happened at Grenfell Tower,
:28:15. > :28:26.and say it's no one political party but the whole system has failed.
:28:27. > :28:29.It's easy to say, "You've got an inquiry, let's wait for that."
:28:30. > :28:30.We already know two very clear things.
:28:31. > :28:32.Had the people there been protected by sprinklers,
:28:33. > :28:35.People don't die in homes protected by sprinklers.
:28:36. > :28:38.The second thing is the outrage that the building regulations had
:28:39. > :28:41.They should be done year in, year out.
:28:42. > :28:44.Generally people in house fires die in ones, twos
:28:45. > :28:46.or threes, which doesn't make a political statement.
:28:47. > :28:47.So the political parties haven't really needed
:28:48. > :28:52.They weren't prepared for 70 or more people to die at once
:28:53. > :28:56.The public inquiry, which will address some of those issues,
:28:57. > :28:58.has already faced calls for its newly appointed
:28:59. > :29:02.And that was a view echoed by the Labour MP
:29:03. > :29:08.You would call on him, would you, to stand down?
:29:09. > :29:13.I don't think there will be any credibility and some people
:29:14. > :29:16.are saying they won't cooperate with it so it's not going to work.
:29:17. > :29:21.I will look into this matter to the very best of my ability...
:29:22. > :29:24.I think the attacks on the chair have to cease, I think the attacks
:29:25. > :29:30.It actually makes it harder to get to the facts and get
:29:31. > :29:36.to the truth and that's the most important thing now.
:29:37. > :29:38.Some said it was unavoidable that this tragedy became political,
:29:39. > :29:47.but will the politics help get to the truth?
:29:48. > :29:49.I'm joined now by the Labour MP for Kensington -
:29:50. > :29:52.who we heard at the end of that film - Emma Dent Coad.
:29:53. > :30:03.Now this judge, leading the Grenfell inquiry, have you met him? I haven't
:30:04. > :30:08.met him, no. So what evidence do you have that he doesn't in your words
:30:09. > :30:12.understand human beings? Well, I am reflecting what people are telling
:30:13. > :30:17.me out there, that they as soon as his name was announced everybody
:30:18. > :30:22.looked up his credentials, they found a particular case he had been
:30:23. > :30:26.involved in, the very issue that people are most worried about, post
:30:27. > :30:31.Grenfell is they will be moved out of the borough somewhere else. This
:30:32. > :30:34.issue about social cleansing. It was insensitive to have chosen somebody
:30:35. > :30:38.with that on his record. Whether he made that decision according to the
:30:39. > :30:43.rules. It is one judgment in a long career, he may be able to defend
:30:44. > :30:46.what he did. You have said he doesn't understand human beings but
:30:47. > :30:51.you have told us you have never met him? It is nothing to do with
:30:52. > :30:54.meeting him. It is the system where people have to be friends in order
:30:55. > :30:58.to work together, judged by the evidence, judge by what people have
:30:59. > :31:02.done that, judge by merit and whether or not you can be friendly.
:31:03. > :31:07.What has he done wrong in his career? It is symbolic the issue he
:31:08. > :31:10.made a decision about, it is symbolic for everybody. I am
:31:11. > :31:15.reflecting the community who are been betrayed. You don't think in
:31:16. > :31:19.your often view you don't take the view he doesn't understand human
:31:20. > :31:22.beings. Personally I do. I do actually but I am reflecting what
:31:23. > :31:26.people are saying, the people who elected me, who have been badly
:31:27. > :31:32.betrayed by the authority, they are seeing it that way, they have been
:31:33. > :31:36.betrayed and now they see you know, they worst fear is this will be used
:31:37. > :31:41.top socially cleanse north Kensington. What is the evidence for
:31:42. > :31:45.that? About social cleansing? No, this will be used to do so. Whether
:31:46. > :31:50.or not there is ever, there is no trust in somebody who has been part
:31:51. > :31:53.of that process. He has been chosen by the Lord Chief Justice, not as
:31:54. > :32:00.the Prime Minister as some have said. He has a long ex perness of
:32:01. > :32:05.commercial contracts and disaster, both of which will be vital. It is a
:32:06. > :32:10.lot to do with overlapping commercial contract, he is a
:32:11. > :32:14.specialist in that area, what bit doesn't make his qualified and and
:32:15. > :32:18.doesn't he reflect the independence of the judiciary? Well, we certainly
:32:19. > :32:21.need somebody who can do the detail. This is a human disaster as much as
:32:22. > :32:25.anything else. We need somebody who, we saw in the meeting there, there
:32:26. > :32:30.is a lot of anger and people aren't trusting. . That would be true, we
:32:31. > :32:34.all understand the anger, of course, but that would be true whoever was
:32:35. > :32:39.chosen. Are you really after... Do you want someone to head up this
:32:40. > :32:42.inquiry that will give you a show trial rather than an independent
:32:43. > :32:47.inquiry. It is exactly the opposite. . Woe won't give us a show trial, is
:32:48. > :32:51.he? If there is no trust, people won't co-operate with him. A lot of
:32:52. > :32:56.people will need to co-operate with him. Some of the groups are not
:32:57. > :33:03.involved, they are protest groups who are not representing the
:33:04. > :33:07.victims, or the survivors, we have very little evidence that those who
:33:08. > :33:11.directly affected by this are saying they are not going to co-operate.
:33:12. > :33:16.Well, everybody who lives round there is a victim to some extent,
:33:17. > :33:20.they have all been affected, myself as well, I live three blocksia from
:33:21. > :33:24.it and a lot of the groups are very much involved in that community, not
:33:25. > :33:28.only the people who lived there who survived, but some of the campaign
:33:29. > :33:32.groups have been campaigning for years about social housing in area.
:33:33. > :33:38.What sort of person to you think should head up the inquiry is this
:33:39. > :33:42.If it has to be Martin, we need an advisory panel with representatives
:33:43. > :33:46.from different groups who can at least advise and feed in
:33:47. > :33:50.information, at least if we have no choice, we need at least that. But
:33:51. > :33:55.rather than him, what sort of person? I am not sure, are you
:33:56. > :34:00.saying he should remain but he needs to be assisted by a panel or he
:34:01. > :34:03.should be replaced? If we have no choice, then we should have an
:34:04. > :34:07.advisory panel to back it up. Something that people trust in. At
:34:08. > :34:11.the moment they don't trust the process, which is understandable,
:34:12. > :34:15.and his name was announced the same day as the Hillsborough disaster,
:34:16. > :34:19.the criminal investigation and so on, that after 28 year, this is what
:34:20. > :34:22.people, how people see it. They want, they don't trust the process s
:34:23. > :34:28.it won't work proppism it is not just what I think, it is what people
:34:29. > :34:32.who are directly involved thing. John McDonnell the Shadow Chancellor
:34:33. > :34:35.says people who died at Grenfell were murdered by political decision
:34:36. > :34:41.do you agree? That is a strong way of putting it. I know a lot of
:34:42. > :34:43.people feel like that. There is massive failure of political
:34:44. > :34:49.decision, I have seen that happening. But murder? That is an
:34:50. > :34:54.active verb. It means you intended to kill. So for Mr McDonnell to be
:34:55. > :34:58.right, these were political decisions taken intended to kill. I
:34:59. > :35:02.don't share his view on that particular issue, there has been a
:35:03. > :35:06.failure of care, for many, many years and a failure of investment
:35:07. > :35:11.for many year, as I have seen myself. But part of the problem has
:35:12. > :35:16.been investment. They had nine million spent on this block I was
:35:17. > :35:22.looking at it today, the other tower blocks round it have not been clad.
:35:23. > :35:26.Of course if they had gone on fire, the disaster would not have been on
:35:27. > :35:31.the same scale. Nine million helped to produce this. In indeed. The
:35:32. > :35:39.process of how that building was refurbished. It says it is to make
:35:40. > :35:42.it look better, half a mile down the road, the tower blocks have been
:35:43. > :35:49.clad, they were clad in mineral wool. I spent a day at a seminar by
:35:50. > :35:55.chance understanding, it is non-combustible. Who made that
:35:56. > :36:03.decision to use rain cladding rather than mineral wool. You were on the
:36:04. > :36:06.the board of who took that decision. The council had no say about the
:36:07. > :36:11.specification, we didn't have any involvement at all. It didn't come
:36:12. > :36:17.before you, because it has tenants on it too. The TMO does, The
:36:18. > :36:22.advisory committee to the TMO. There is the TMO. I was not there at the
:36:23. > :36:26.time. As far as I understand a sub group decided or reviewed the
:36:27. > :36:31.specifications of that. The housing and property committee is part of
:36:32. > :36:35.the council. Obviously you a say, but whether or not, we don't have
:36:36. > :36:42.any say at all over specification, I want to say somebody because I have
:36:43. > :36:48.been accused of... That because my predecessor said I should take
:36:49. > :36:51.responsibility, a clueing colleague of mine got beaten up for that,
:36:52. > :36:56.there is no foundation for that allegation. I thank you for clearing
:36:57. > :37:02.that up. Thank you for joining us too.
:37:03. > :37:04.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:05. > :37:06.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:37:07. > :37:10.Coming up here in 20 minutes, The Week Ahead.
:37:11. > :37:28.First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:37:29. > :37:30.Today must be officially the first day of summer.
:37:31. > :37:32.Not because a weatherman told us, but because it's the season
:37:33. > :37:34.when jobbing reporters awkwardly occupy the presenter's chair.
:37:35. > :37:39.As City Hall argues for a special relationship with Europe,
:37:40. > :37:42.Havering Council are about to vote on breaking away from the capital.
:37:43. > :37:45.With me for the next 20 minutes - Barry Gardiner, Labour MP
:37:46. > :37:47.for Brent North, Shadow Cabinet minister and a veteran of duffing up
:37:48. > :37:56.two big beasts of the Westminster reporting fraternity,
:37:57. > :37:58.Nick Robinson and Adam Boulton, during the election campaign.
:37:59. > :38:00.I'm hoping I'll not need a crash helmet, Barry.
:38:01. > :38:02.And the Conservative MP for Spelthorne on London's south
:38:03. > :38:06.Kwasi writes on his website that his first name is one given
:38:07. > :38:09.to boys born on Sundays in parts of Ghana.
:38:10. > :38:16.We must start with the grim reality of Grenfell Tower,
:38:17. > :38:19.and your reaction to the news that fire crews at Grenfell Tower
:38:20. > :38:21.on the night reported low water pressure, radio problems
:38:22. > :38:23.and the time it took to get high ladders -
:38:24. > :38:25.a higher platform - for tackling the fire
:38:26. > :39:02.It is easy to say we could have spent more money and things would
:39:03. > :39:07.have been mitigated, my own view is that clearly there were failures in
:39:08. > :39:10.terms of the cladding, in terms of the actual building and the
:39:11. > :39:13.regulations that were followed and that is why we have an inquiry, we
:39:14. > :39:18.have a judge who believe has been appointed who will look into the
:39:19. > :39:21.facts, and hopefully will fiend out some degree of responsibility but I
:39:22. > :39:24.don't think the fire equipment necessarily is the main focus, or
:39:25. > :39:28.should be the main focus of the investigation, we have to find out
:39:29. > :39:31.what happened. We have a sense of what happened. We need to get the
:39:32. > :39:36.facts straight and we immediate to work out what the failure in terms
:39:37. > :39:42.of regulation was a. The first thing I would like to say it is
:39:43. > :39:46.extraordinary how Emma as a new MP has stepped up and been able to deal
:39:47. > :39:49.with this. I think she has done a remarkable jobs, and I want to pay
:39:50. > :39:55.tribute to the work she has done, with her community. There she was a
:39:56. > :39:59.few minutes ago argued that Sir Martin Moore Bic should stand down,
:40:00. > :40:06.and that is not the view, is it of the Labour leadership? No No, what
:40:07. > :40:10.she has done is is really tried to understand the very deep anger, and
:40:11. > :40:16.concern of her community, and to reflect that to those in authority
:40:17. > :40:20.in Parliament. And I think she, you know, it is a very, sensitive,
:40:21. > :40:26.incredibly difficult role she has taken on as an MP with only days of
:40:27. > :40:32.experience. I think we should all recognise that. It is difficult,
:40:33. > :40:35.tightrope to walks but she has done it extraordinarily well. On the
:40:36. > :40:40.point you made about the equipment and so on, I think one of the things
:40:41. > :40:45.that we really should see the inquiry widened out to look at, is
:40:46. > :40:50.the way in which these supposedly compliance codes that are written,
:40:51. > :40:52.you see, there are building regulation, and then the industry
:40:53. > :40:57.creates compliance codes that says if you do this and this, then you
:40:58. > :41:03.might reach the compliance... And that seems to have gone wrong here
:41:04. > :41:07.and industry has been given too much power to water down the building
:41:08. > :41:10.regulations. We will come back if to that in a moment. I will stop you
:41:11. > :41:15.because the turmoil in Kensington has continued this week. At meeting
:41:16. > :41:19.residents heckled the judge, while the council has had a shake-up in
:41:20. > :41:23.its management imposed by the government, but will that be enough
:41:24. > :41:29.to quell the anger in the community? The Mayor of London says otherwise.
:41:30. > :41:31.After the dramatic silences of last week that saw the leader
:41:32. > :41:33.of Kensington and Chelsea Council resign, the Royal Borough
:41:34. > :41:40.Elizabeth Campbell was chosen to head the council in the presence
:41:41. > :41:42.of the minister for London, Greg Hands.
:41:43. > :41:44.A show of the Government's increasingly hands on approach to
:41:45. > :41:52.And the first thing I'm going to do, is to reach out to our community,
:41:53. > :42:00.And the second thing I'm going to do is to phone up Sajid Javid,
:42:01. > :42:03.as Secretary of State, and ask for more help.
:42:04. > :42:05.That's what her predecessor was criticised for not doing enough of.
:42:06. > :42:08.Now the government's ordered a new task force to take over
:42:09. > :42:12.It's not yet known who'll be on it, but we do know its remit.
:42:13. > :42:16.The special focus of this recovery task force is going to be
:42:17. > :42:22.on housing, regeneration, and community engagement.
:42:23. > :42:24.But Labour say no task force can restore the Conservative-run
:42:25. > :42:28.Mr Speaker, could I gently say to the Minister,
:42:29. > :42:30.the fudge at local level about who's in control won't work.
:42:31. > :42:32.The local community do not want the usual suspects in charge
:42:33. > :42:44.City Hall has a more radical proposal.
:42:45. > :42:46.What the Government should be doing is consulting local residents,
:42:47. > :42:49.and then sending in commissioners to take over the running
:42:50. > :42:52.While the row continues over who ought to be in charge,
:42:53. > :42:54.residents are living in precarious circumstances.
:42:55. > :42:56.Of the 158 families affected, only 14 have accepted offers
:42:57. > :43:03.of temporary accomodation - like this one.
:43:04. > :43:06.Others evacuated from the area were, this week, escorted back
:43:07. > :43:10.It's now up to the task force to find homes for those families
:43:11. > :43:20.I'm joined now by Eleanor Kelly, the Chief Executive
:43:21. > :43:23.of Southwark Council who has now been drafted in as the official
:43:24. > :43:25.spokesperson for the Grenfell Tower disaster response team.
:43:26. > :43:31.Good morning. Thank you for coming in. Any update for us this morning
:43:32. > :43:35.on the number of people who have been rehoused? The number of people
:43:36. > :43:38.who have accepted temporary been rehoused? The number of people
:43:39. > :43:42.rehousing is 16. It is starting to slowly move forward. What is the
:43:43. > :43:49.sticking point, why is that number still so low? People don't want to
:43:50. > :43:52.make two move, they want to move to their permanent accommodation and
:43:53. > :43:58.for many people, they have been through such a terrible trauma they
:43:59. > :44:01.are not ready to think about their housing option, including people who
:44:02. > :44:04.are having their housing needs assessed on the basis of family
:44:05. > :44:09.members who are missing, presumed dead. We hear a lot, understandably
:44:10. > :44:12.about the sense of anger, and dislocation there is in the
:44:13. > :44:17.community, how do you go about trying to address that? It is such a
:44:18. > :44:20.huge challenge. There are practicalities round trying to find
:44:21. > :44:25.homes and people wrestling with the dilemma of whether they want to go
:44:26. > :44:30.into temporary accommodation or wait, but how do you deal with that
:44:31. > :44:33.sense of dislocation, and anger and try and start the process of taking
:44:34. > :44:47.it on and helping people? You have to recognise the layers and
:44:48. > :44:50.impacts on different communities. You start with the bereaved and they
:44:51. > :44:54.have a different type of support package. You have the survivors from
:44:55. > :45:00.the fire and people whose homes have been destroyed in Grenfell Tower.
:45:01. > :45:07.The Lancaster west estate is an estate made up of 1000 properties,
:45:08. > :45:11.151 of which were destroyed, but the other 849 properties are inhabited
:45:12. > :45:21.and those people in that community have been impacted dreadfully too.
:45:22. > :45:25.Then you have the communities of Kensington and Chelsea, the issues
:45:26. > :45:29.around London, and of course this was a national disaster. You have to
:45:30. > :45:33.recognise the response and actions have to be specifically tailored and
:45:34. > :45:40.very detailed in respect of each of those different levels. So for
:45:41. > :45:45.instance you mentioned firstly those who are believed, what support is
:45:46. > :45:49.being offered for them? There's a specific facility in the friends and
:45:50. > :45:54.family assistance centre that provides a package directly to
:45:55. > :45:59.bereaved families and individuals. It is separate from any of the other
:46:00. > :46:02.facilities provided to any of the other communities and they are
:46:03. > :46:15.supported in specialist bereavement services as well as the bereavement
:46:16. > :46:19.services around housing, social care, and key workers have to be
:46:20. > :46:23.supported in a different way to the general community. How is the
:46:24. > :46:27.relationship working between you guys, the local authority, the Mayor
:46:28. > :46:31.of London and government. The argument would be made layers of
:46:32. > :46:37.complexity is necessary when responding to a tragedy of the scale
:46:38. > :46:45.but I guess there is a possibility of that bringing conflict. I don't
:46:46. > :46:50.see any conflict. There are probably something like 20 different agencies
:46:51. > :46:52.across the public sector, the voluntary sector and private sector
:46:53. > :46:57.as well as government bodies involved in this stage of the
:46:58. > :47:03.response which has moved from rescue into recovery. And it really is
:47:04. > :47:06.complex to get into much more steady state and get these communities back
:47:07. > :47:13.into something much more resembling business as usual. Your reaction to
:47:14. > :47:16.what you're hearing and the response governmentally, whether locally or
:47:17. > :47:22.nationally, how do you think it is going? Just listening to the
:47:23. > :47:26.account, I think people are coming together. It's obviously an
:47:27. > :47:30.appalling tragedy, nobody can deny that, this sort of thing should not
:47:31. > :47:34.be happening in London, but I'm struck by how people are coming
:47:35. > :47:39.together to find answers. There is an element of politics involved but
:47:40. > :47:42.after the tragedy, I'm actually quite surprised and pleased that
:47:43. > :47:47.people are trying to make common cause and get to the bottom of what
:47:48. > :47:52.went wrong and seeing how we can avert something as terrible as this
:47:53. > :48:00.happening again. It's a fairly good response. Barry? We have to cement
:48:01. > :48:04.things, there has to be a response to different elements of the
:48:05. > :48:08.community, those who have suffered treatments, in precisely the way you
:48:09. > :48:14.were saying, but also there has to be a vent for the anger and concern
:48:15. > :48:18.and that takes us into the realms of politics because we know that
:48:19. > :48:23.political decisions were not taken that could have averted this tragedy
:48:24. > :48:27.and that other decisions now need to be taken and swiftly to make sure
:48:28. > :48:31.nothing like this happens again. Thank you, and Eleanor thank you for
:48:32. > :48:32.coming in. Carnivals, with their cacophony
:48:33. > :48:35.and colour, have made the news this week with a row over the route
:48:36. > :48:38.of this year's Notting Hill Carnival and a prominent human rights
:48:39. > :48:44.campaigner arguing that the annual Pride London parade, which took
:48:45. > :48:46.place yesterday, has "morphed into a commercialised,
:48:47. > :48:48.bureaucratic and rule-bound event." The human rights campaigner
:48:49. > :48:54.Peter Tatchell has criticised the Mayor of London,
:48:55. > :48:55.Westminster Council and the Metropolitan Police
:48:56. > :48:57.for imposing what he contends are onerous controls
:48:58. > :49:00.and Draconian costs on the event, reducing the numbers of those
:49:01. > :49:08.marching to 26,000. He compares the controls to the much
:49:09. > :49:11.bigger Notting Hill Carnival, where, he argues, fewer restrictions
:49:12. > :49:15.are in place. A spokesperson for
:49:16. > :49:18.the Mayor responded: This year's Pride in London
:49:19. > :49:20.parade promises to be the biggest ever with 81 floats
:49:21. > :49:23.and 231 walking groups. Over one million people will line
:49:24. > :49:26.the streets in an event that will celebrate London's
:49:27. > :49:31.LGBT plus community. This week, the Notting Hill Carnival
:49:32. > :49:34.was in the news with the Minister for London, Greg Hands,
:49:35. > :49:36.writing to the mayor, Sadiq Khan, asking for the route of this year's
:49:37. > :49:39.carnival to be changed, so that it did not take place
:49:40. > :49:53.in the shadow of Grenfell Tower. Notting Hill Carnival is a firm
:49:54. > :49:55.London tradition and incredibly important to the local community. It
:49:56. > :49:57.should not be moved. And I'm joined by the human rights
:49:58. > :50:09.campaigner Peter Tatchell. Address our viewer who is thinking,
:50:10. > :50:12.gosh, Peter is moaning about this wonderful carnival that is so
:50:13. > :50:17.mainstream now that there's all these corporate sponsors, what's
:50:18. > :50:21.wrong with that? It is wonderful and there is huge progress but I think a
:50:22. > :50:26.lot of people feel that the event is now over commercialised. Of course
:50:27. > :50:30.we need corporate sponsorship to pay for it, that's fine, but it has
:50:31. > :50:34.become too dominant and the rules and restrictions imposed by the
:50:35. > :50:39.authorities are destroying the spontaneity of the event. I think
:50:40. > :50:45.compared to some years ago when 100,000 people were in the parade,
:50:46. > :50:54.to reduce it by rules to only 26,500 is a bit of an imposition. A bit
:50:55. > :51:00.churlish, isn't it? The ethos of Pride is that it is open to anyone,
:51:01. > :51:03.anyone who wants to celebrate LGBT communities can attend, and sadly
:51:04. > :51:06.this year lots of people couldn't join the parade because of the
:51:07. > :51:10.artificial numbers. From the perspective of the authorities, on
:51:11. > :51:14.the one hand you have got the police who will be concerned about ensuring
:51:15. > :51:20.it is safe, and I guess you have those within London who are also
:51:21. > :51:24.conscious that whilst many will want to celebrate, others will want to
:51:25. > :51:30.head out to central London and go shopping. There is a balancing act
:51:31. > :51:35.to be struck. No such concerns or restrictions were imposed on the
:51:36. > :51:39.previous weekend's anti-austerity March or other protests. They are
:51:40. > :51:44.not bound by the same rules or Draconian costs and I think there
:51:45. > :51:49.needs to be an even playing field for everyone. Let's broaden out our
:51:50. > :51:52.discussion to all things London and carnivals. There's a discussion
:51:53. > :51:57.about whether there should be re-routing of the Notting Hill
:51:58. > :52:06.Carnival the context of Grenfell Tower. Your reactions, picking up on
:52:07. > :52:13.the Pride celebrations, what do you make of what Peter said? I think he
:52:14. > :52:17.has a point. Years ago there were more people and it was less
:52:18. > :52:22.commercialised. I saw in your clip of Barclays Bank logo which is not
:52:23. > :52:26.something you necessarily would have seen ten or 15 years ago so I think
:52:27. > :52:30.Peter has a point but there's also the point about trying to make it
:52:31. > :52:34.safe and if the authorities, people feel that there are certain rules
:52:35. > :52:39.you need to have in order to keep the things smoothly running, I think
:52:40. > :52:45.that's fair enough too. Barry, on all things Notting Hill, we have
:52:46. > :52:52.seen a rejection of the suggestion on re-routing it because of Grenfell
:52:53. > :52:57.Tower, what do you think? I think the mayor is right. The Notting Hill
:52:58. > :53:02.Carnival has always been based in that community, to say it should be
:53:03. > :53:08.taken away is to deny the essence of what it is about. It must be rooted,
:53:09. > :53:14.part of that community. It must not see the community... The community
:53:15. > :53:19.mustn't feel that yet again officialdom is coming in and saying
:53:20. > :53:28.no no, we are going to take this away from you and sanitise it. You
:53:29. > :53:31.are bursting to come in. I think Greg is being misrepresented here. I
:53:32. > :53:34.think what you are saying is that because of this appalling event
:53:35. > :53:42.there should be some recognition of that and in some way the Carnival...
:53:43. > :53:49.So his point is more subtle? You yes, no one is trying to ban or
:53:50. > :53:54.restrict things. The community themselves don't want what Greg is
:53:55. > :54:02.saying. I let you speak, you have interrupted me, but what I'm saying
:54:03. > :54:07.is what Greg is saying is we should have acknowledgement that something
:54:08. > :54:11.appalling as happened. Peter, you are a veteran of carnivals and
:54:12. > :54:15.protests and celebrations and you have strong views on Pride, what are
:54:16. > :54:19.your views on what should happen to Notting Hill Carnival? I am pleased
:54:20. > :54:22.there are not the owner is restrictions that have been placed
:54:23. > :54:29.on Notting Hill carnival that have been placed on Pride. I agree the
:54:30. > :54:33.mayor is right, I don't think the Carnival should be moved, but I do
:54:34. > :54:37.think there should be some commemoration so tomorrow I'm
:54:38. > :54:41.writing to the Mayor of London proposing that 3pm on the Carnival
:54:42. > :54:47.Monday sirens should wail across west London to be followed by a
:54:48. > :54:51.minute's stillness and silence so we can fittingly commemorate the
:54:52. > :54:56.victims and that compromise means the Carnival can go on but we also
:54:57. > :55:01.very importantly remember those who have died and suffered. Thank you,
:55:02. > :55:02.very interesting. Peter, thank you for coming in.
:55:03. > :55:11.What is he on about, I hear you ask...
:55:12. > :55:14.well, some in one London borough are,
:55:15. > :55:16.to coin a phrase, saying they want to "take back control."
:55:17. > :55:19.The slogan used by outers in the EU referendum campaign has been
:55:20. > :55:22.borrowed by those hoping to wrestle back power from the Mayor
:55:23. > :55:25.Sadiq Khan and return it to the people of Havering -
:55:26. > :55:26.many of whom say they're not Londoners.
:55:27. > :55:32.Since the year 2000, City Hall has been in charge
:55:33. > :55:33.of London's planning, police, transport,
:55:34. > :55:36.the Fire Service, and environmental issues in the capital.
:55:37. > :55:39.This year the mayor's budget for all of that is ?16 billion.
:55:40. > :55:44.It's likely you spend about ?23 a month contributing
:55:45. > :55:47.towards that as part of your council tax, but just as some
:55:48. > :55:50.of London's Brexit heartlands wanted to take power and influence away
:55:51. > :55:52.from the EU, now one London borough wants to be free
:55:53. > :55:58.We want to take back control of planning,
:55:59. > :56:01.we want Havering to leave the London planning process.
:56:02. > :56:09.We raise tax through the GLA precept which is given over to the mayor,
:56:10. > :56:13.then we have to beg for that money back and of course we don't get back
:56:14. > :56:17.So you think Havering would be better off out?
:56:18. > :56:29.Here in the London Borough of Havering, it's market day.
:56:30. > :56:31.We are just 12 miles from the centre of London,
:56:32. > :56:34.but do people here feel like they are part of the capital?
:56:35. > :56:37.I feel I'm a bit, like, a bit both really.
:56:38. > :56:41.And do you think Sadiq Khan's City Hall should have control of Havering
:56:42. > :56:44.or do you think it should have control of itself?
:56:45. > :56:45.I think Havering should control itself.
:56:46. > :56:47.Go to London, it's a rat race, isn't it?
:56:48. > :56:52.Do you think Sadiq Khan's City Hall should have control of your life?
:56:53. > :57:00.It should be a Londoner doing the job that knows London.
:57:01. > :57:14.And yet there are also those here, like Jazz, who wanted her Indian
:57:15. > :57:16.restaurant to feel like part of the capital.
:57:17. > :57:17.You would find something like this in Shoreditch,
:57:18. > :57:19.Camden, so, you know, and this is provided
:57:20. > :57:26.The reason we have brought the feel of London so people in Havering
:57:27. > :57:28.don't have to travel too far out and this is more
:57:29. > :57:32.Which suggests some here do consider themselves to be Londoners.
:57:33. > :57:35.But on Wednesday the council will vote on a motion introduced
:57:36. > :57:38.by Ukip to make Havering a unitary authority - a move being described
:57:39. > :57:43.Yes, I find it slightly bizarre, to tell you the truth.
:57:44. > :57:47.I have been slightly blindsided when I heard about this.
:57:48. > :57:52.What is the implications for Havering having its own police
:57:53. > :57:55.force, I don't know the details about that, or I think
:57:56. > :57:59.I mean it does tap into a sense of people frustrated
:58:00. > :58:02.with the people who make decisions about their lives.
:58:03. > :58:04.A year ago it was the people over in Brussels.
:58:05. > :58:06.Now it seems to be people in the town hall.
:58:07. > :58:10.Sadiq Khan says he doesn't think councillors will give this
:58:11. > :58:13.motion the time of day, but the local Conservative MP says
:58:14. > :58:18.if it passes he will push for a change in the law.
:58:19. > :58:21.When you have a Labour Mayor of London that looks at a borough
:58:22. > :58:23.like Havering and thinks, ah, let's build tens of thousands
:58:24. > :58:26.of houses in a borough like that, when it doesn't have local support,
:58:27. > :58:32.A City Hall bureaucracy taking power away from local people,
:58:33. > :58:35.from local politicians and from the decision-making,
:58:36. > :58:41.you know, democratic decision-making local community is wrong.
:58:42. > :58:43.While most here admit a Hexit seems unlikely,
:58:44. > :58:46.it was only last year that similar frustrations led to
:58:47. > :58:57.Culturally fascinating reflections on what is happening in Havering,
:58:58. > :59:04.regardless to what happens about the suggestions in the council, and
:59:05. > :59:08.Kwasi there's a history we should tap into. Absolutely, when
:59:09. > :59:14.essentially Middlesex county council was abolished in 1965 the GLC was
:59:15. > :59:19.created, the two district councils which made up Spelthorne had a
:59:20. > :59:28.choice, they could decide to be part of Greater London or part of Surrey,
:59:29. > :59:32.which is what happened. When I hear that, I reflect on a familiar
:59:33. > :59:36.argument in my constituency. Some people say, why can't we be part of
:59:37. > :59:40.London, but I suspect the majority want to have a distinctive
:59:41. > :59:49.independence outside of London. They love being near London but don't see
:59:50. > :59:52.themselves as being part of it. They can say that is a problem these
:59:53. > :59:59.people are causing us and therefore what we will do is build a wall and
:00:00. > :00:04.keep them over there and guard our separation, or you can say, goodness
:00:05. > :00:10.me, we have a problem, and let's get in there and try and deal with that,
:00:11. > :00:11.and I think that is coming out at national and local
:00:12. > :00:14.and try and deal with that, and I think that is coming out
:00:15. > :00:27.Now just under a year ago, Theresa May was making her way back
:00:28. > :00:29.from Buckingham Palace having been asked by the Queen
:00:30. > :00:33.To say it's been a tumultuous twelve months would be an understatement -
:00:34. > :00:40.here's a reminder of the highs and lows.
:00:41. > :00:43.I have just been to Buckingham Palace, where Her Majesty the Queen
:00:44. > :00:52.has asked me to form a new Government and I accepted.
:00:53. > :00:54.If you're just managing, I want to address you directly.
:00:55. > :00:56.I know you're working around-the-clock, I know
:00:57. > :00:58.you're doing your best, and I know that sometimes
:00:59. > :01:06.When future generations look back at this time,
:01:07. > :01:09.they will judge us not only by the decision that we made, but by
:01:10. > :01:24.I have just chaired a meeting of the Cabinet, where we agreed
:01:25. > :01:28.that the Government should call a general election to
:01:29. > :01:46.The Conservative Party has won the most seats
:01:47. > :01:52.and probably the most votes, then it will be incumbent on us
:01:53. > :01:55.to ensure we have that period of stability and that is exactly
:01:56. > :02:12.So 12 months in the life of Theresa May, and the rest of us too. I am
:02:13. > :02:17.exhausted. I don't know what she feels like! How weak or strong is
:02:18. > :02:20.her position and this constant reporting, more on the Sunday paper
:02:21. > :02:25.today about groups of Tory MPs manoeuvring to bring her down in the
:02:26. > :02:29.autumn, before the autumn after the autumn, name a month between now and
:02:30. > :02:33.the end of the year. Is that, that has to be corrosive as well.
:02:34. > :02:37.Absolutely. Every week there will be another story. The reality is the
:02:38. > :02:41.stronger Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party look the stronger her
:02:42. > :02:45.position is because it is what are the alternative, Theresa May or...
:02:46. > :02:49.It is depending on the polls where it is Theresa May herself who is
:02:50. > :02:53.helping to cause that boost for Jeremy Corbyn, if she is the toxic
:02:54. > :02:58.part of the Tory party brand, and if they get rid of her the Tories would
:02:59. > :03:03.spring back up and the Labour Party would go down or is it best for her
:03:04. > :03:08.to soak it, literally draw out the toxins and then, I don't know, two
:03:09. > :03:13.money, six months a year, she stands down and next leader takes the over,
:03:14. > :03:18.next generation or David Davis and they start again, start afresh, and
:03:19. > :03:22.she takes all the badness, the toxins with her this is thing, there
:03:23. > :03:28.must be a hell of a lot of detailed polls right now find that out. I
:03:29. > :03:33.don't know the answer. Can she relaunch herself? No, she will make
:03:34. > :03:38.a big speech on Tuesday, ex tracts are being briefed into tomorrow's
:03:39. > :03:46.papers, I have seen them. . What is the subject matter? Me. Not me, her.
:03:47. > :03:50.There has been enough movement from BBC... It is going to be her, it
:03:51. > :03:54.will be the relaunch. I have a purpose, still here and allow me to
:03:55. > :03:58.stay, but the problem is, Julia is right, there is a feeling among Tory
:03:59. > :04:05.MPs it would be ideal for her to last at least two years, suck in the
:04:06. > :04:09.bad bit, and to have a referendum or not, and the miscalculations and
:04:10. > :04:14.bring in a new person, untarnished. The problem over that is events dear
:04:15. > :04:18.boy as someone once said. Brexit may go well, it may not. Talks may
:04:19. > :04:23.produce something or she may get stuck down a hole. She is the
:04:24. > :04:27.sticking plaster over the two side of the Tory party. She is there,
:04:28. > :04:32.because they want her to be there and that Palacester is stilled
:04:33. > :04:37.holding, if that seismic divide goes any further, the plaster breaks she
:04:38. > :04:42.will go down the hole with it. David Davis said she doesn't want a
:04:43. > :04:49.leadership election, the papers are full of briefings from what are
:04:50. > :04:52.claimed to be from his people saying she faces abject misery, that it is
:04:53. > :04:57.time she will have to go sooner rather than later, they clearly
:04:58. > :05:03.haven't got the memo from DD as he is called. Publicly they have, to
:05:04. > :05:10.declare loyalty until the moment when they feel the time has come to
:05:11. > :05:16.be disloyal. The problem she has got is that context determines 95% of
:05:17. > :05:21.how a leader is perceived. She can make a brilliant speech this week
:05:22. > :05:27.about how she plans to be bold but the context is that lost majority in
:05:28. > :05:33.the election, a hung parliament with Brexit looming. It makes it hard to
:05:34. > :05:39.be bold, hung Parliaments are not bold. You will have to manoeuvre all
:05:40. > :05:43.the time and it be exhausting and transparent in the scheming, a like
:05:44. > :05:47.with the arrangement with the DUP, some of the vote it is a have
:05:48. > :05:51.happened and it will be utterly draining, now Julia is is right. The
:05:52. > :05:54.key question for the Tories will be if they get someone else in, does
:05:55. > :06:00.that transform their prospects? While that is not clear, I agree she
:06:01. > :06:05.will probably cling on, but there will be no glorious summer for her
:06:06. > :06:10.again, the pre-election context was fantastic for her, it is really dark
:06:11. > :06:16.now, and tough. The key thing is what you said, who would have thunk
:06:17. > :06:21.it. You have said the Tories are frightened to call to provoke us
:06:22. > :06:25.another election because they fear, they think Jeremy Corbyn will win.
:06:26. > :06:31.Who would have thought we would get into that position? In the same
:06:32. > :06:34.argument who would have thought Theresa May been so popular. Who
:06:35. > :06:38.would have thought Jeremy Corbyn would get where he is now? That
:06:39. > :06:43.shows there is still hope for not maybe, maybe not Theresa May, I
:06:44. > :06:47.think that she has holed below the water line, what goes up can also
:06:48. > :06:52.come down, but in Theresa May's defence, and I don't think she will
:06:53. > :06:56.last very long, and I think she has been exposed, during the election
:06:57. > :07:01.campaign for just not having enough of depth, of the fight, but to be
:07:02. > :07:04.fair she must have a backbone of steel, a lesser man or holed below
:07:05. > :07:07.the water line, what goes up can also come down, but in Theresa May's
:07:08. > :07:09.defence, and I don't think she will last very long, and I think she has
:07:10. > :07:12.been exposed, during the election campaign for just not having enough
:07:13. > :07:15.of depth, of the fight, but to be fair she must have a backbone of
:07:16. > :07:18.steel, a lesser man or woman holed below the water line, what goes up
:07:19. > :07:21.can also come down, but in Theresa May's defence, and I don't think she
:07:22. > :07:23.will last very long, and I think she has been exposed, during the
:07:24. > :07:25.election campaign for just not having enough of depth, of the
:07:26. > :07:28.fight, but to be fair she must have a backbone of steel, a lesser man or
:07:29. > :07:32.woman who have gone, "I'm off now." To take the flak she is get, she is
:07:33. > :07:35.steely as they come. It is almost a form of penance she is doing, having
:07:36. > :07:37.brought her party to this less than glorious position, she's having to
:07:38. > :07:40.try and kind of restore things a bit, knowing in her heart of hearts
:07:41. > :07:42.and perhaps not as deep at that, that she will not be the
:07:43. > :07:44.beneficiary. Absolutely not. That is what she said to the 1922 Committee
:07:45. > :07:48.that Monday after the general election, I got us into this mess, I
:07:49. > :07:50.am going to get us out of it. Talks to MPs this week, it is interesting,
:07:51. > :07:53.there is pretty hard feeling settling that the new person should
:07:54. > :08:01.come from the 2010 intake, skip a generation. The Boris, the Teresa,
:08:02. > :08:06.the Hammonds. Bye Amber Rudd? She has a tiny minority -- majority.
:08:07. > :08:12.There was one minister in your foyer an hour ago. Did we have a foyer? I
:08:13. > :08:16.think about 30 of them, all of them believe it or not fancy their
:08:17. > :08:19.chance, and for any of those to expose themselves and to lay out
:08:20. > :08:21.their agenda they will need two-years to make these sort of
:08:22. > :08:27.Sport Reliefs Let us turn to Labour. Well, earlier we talked
:08:28. > :08:29.to Caroline Flint about the threat Here's what Shadow Minister
:08:30. > :08:34.and Corbyn ally, Chris Williamson, MPs need to reflect the political
:08:35. > :08:36.programme that is overwhelmingly supported by Labour members
:08:37. > :08:38.and Labour supporters, and if people aren't
:08:39. > :08:40.prepared to do that, then it will be up to members
:08:41. > :08:57.in their local constituencies How big a change is Labour going to
:08:58. > :09:03.undergo? To what extent will Labour now be recast in the mould of Mr
:09:04. > :09:08.Corbyn and his wing of the party? Well in policy terms it already has
:09:09. > :09:13.been largely recast into the Corbyn McDonnell view, although with lots
:09:14. > :09:18.of examples of them being pretty expedient, Trident being an example.
:09:19. > :09:21.Where they went into the election backing retention, even though
:09:22. > :09:25.personally they are totally committed to nuclear disarmament. He
:09:26. > :09:30.might be able to move to that position? They might but that
:09:31. > :09:34.example of expend yen sip leads me to this. . I suspect Corbyn and
:09:35. > :09:42.McDonnell will be thinking we are close to power do we really want 18
:09:43. > :09:48.months of Civil War, which is what deelection battles would become, and
:09:49. > :09:53.terrible publicity, and an imflowing a party on the verge possibly of an
:09:54. > :09:58.election win. -- implosion. My guess is they won't and they will go out
:09:59. > :10:03.of their way to try and stop it. John McDonnell said many times
:10:04. > :10:06.divide a party lose elections, I don't think they will want this.
:10:07. > :10:10.There are power battles in party, we have been talking about it in the
:10:11. > :10:13.Tory party, and there will be moments of heightened tension
:10:14. > :10:18.between the Labour MPs and their memberships but I don't think that
:10:19. > :10:25.this is going to happen. If Steve is right we should be looking for signs
:10:26. > :10:30.of them looking for signs of them hosing things down. Although, I
:10:31. > :10:34.don't think they need to do this. The moderate wing of the party, they
:10:35. > :10:39.are not standing up to Jeremy Corbyn any more, they are trying to get a
:10:40. > :10:43.few Select Committee Chairmanships and survive and hope something
:10:44. > :10:51.happens. The extraordinary thing is, given that no-one expected Jeremy
:10:52. > :10:57.Corbyn, no-one tried to deselect him and no-one accused him of
:10:58. > :11:01.disloyalty. We are in Soviet style show trial, you know, repent
:11:02. > :11:06.territory. We haven't had a show trial yet. Matter of time. Apart
:11:07. > :11:10.from Brexit. The Labour Party are united until it comes to votes on
:11:11. > :11:17.the House of Commons on what to do about Europe. So, Brexit goes well,
:11:18. > :11:24.that 49 will wither away a bit and start getting... If Brexit goes
:11:25. > :11:30.badly. Vince Cable saying we need a mud referendum, huge temptation then
:11:31. > :11:35.among Labour MPs to recalibrate and a oar gue for staying in and that
:11:36. > :11:41.would split the partyty down the middle. You heard Owen Paterson say
:11:42. > :11:46.85% of people voted for parties that wanted Brexit, meaning Labour and
:11:47. > :11:50.Conservative. It is true that Jeremy Corbyn and Mr McDonnell are more
:11:51. > :11:54.Eurosceptic than people realise. They want another election quickly,
:11:55. > :11:59.because they don't know how, this maybe as good as it gets. None of us
:12:00. > :12:03.know, so get an election quick because we think we might win it.
:12:04. > :12:10.That means that they could well play game, why would they just bolster
:12:11. > :12:15.the store Tories if a big defeat on Brexit could provoke an election. I
:12:16. > :12:19.am guessing they will play games, if there is chance of undermining the
:12:20. > :12:23.Government perhaps fatally to get this early election which would be
:12:24. > :12:28.massively in their interest, theyry ahead in the poll, I think that will
:12:29. > :12:32.do it. They have displayed expediency on Europe in the past,
:12:33. > :12:37.possibly arguing for it why having doubts about it in the referendum,
:12:38. > :12:41.for Remain, sorely. So yes, I think there will be, as I said earlier, in
:12:42. > :12:45.this Parliament there will be going to be moments where it looks as if
:12:46. > :12:50.the Government could be defeat and I think they will move towards
:12:51. > :12:56.defeating the Government. Any remainor should be more worried
:12:57. > :12:58.about the economics of a Corbyn left Government. On that point we better
:12:59. > :13:01.On that point we better leave it there.
:13:02. > :13:07.I'll be back here on BBC One at the same time next week
:13:08. > :13:11.And Jo Co's back tomorrow with the Daily Politics on BBC Two
:13:12. > :13:14.at the earlier time of 11am - that's because of Wimbledon.
:13:15. > :13:24.Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.