22/10/2017

:00:39. > :00:42.Morning everyone, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:43. > :00:45.And this is your essential briefing on everything

:00:46. > :00:48.that's moving and shaking in the world of politics.

:00:49. > :00:51.Theresa May wants the big internet companies to take down extremist

:00:52. > :00:56.But is the most dangerous material beyond the reach of the government

:00:57. > :01:01.We'll be speaking to a Home Office minister.

:01:02. > :01:04.Progress, yes - but French President Emmanuel

:01:05. > :01:07.Macron, says that when it comes to agreeing on a divorce bill

:01:08. > :01:11.the UK and EU are "not even half way there".

:01:12. > :01:19.So are Brexit talks just living on a prayer?

:01:20. > :01:23.I'm in Canterbury asking whether the benefits system is too cruel or too

:01:24. > :01:23.kind. In London this week, four months

:01:24. > :01:26.on from the Grenfell Tower fire, should the body responsible

:01:27. > :01:38.for the building be disbanded? And with me today, our regular

:01:39. > :01:44.gaggle of political experts. All of them fresh from a long hot

:01:45. > :01:47.bath - as prescribed So they are fully de-stressed

:01:48. > :01:53.and ready to make a calm and collected assessment

:01:54. > :01:54.of the day's political Tom Newton Dunn,

:01:55. > :01:58.Helen Lewis and Iain Martin. So, what are the big

:01:59. > :02:00.political stories making The Shadow Brexit Secretary,

:02:01. > :02:05.Keir Starmer, has delivered Theresa May an ultimatum over

:02:06. > :02:08.the EU withdrawal bill. He says he'll instruct Labour MPs

:02:09. > :02:11.to vote with rebel Conservative MPs for a binding vote

:02:12. > :02:15.on the final EU deal - that's unless Theresa May

:02:16. > :02:18.accepts six changes to the crucial legislation that's currently

:02:19. > :02:20.going through parliament. They include a commitment

:02:21. > :02:22.to a transition period, during which Britain would stay

:02:23. > :02:24.in the single market And to maintain workers'

:02:25. > :02:29.and human rights at the levels As if Brexit wasn't enough

:02:30. > :02:34.of a headache for the EU, the constitutional crisis in Spain

:02:35. > :02:38.has escalated further. The government in Madrid is set

:02:39. > :02:40.to strip the Catalan regional government of its powers,

:02:41. > :02:43.after it stated its intention to declare independence

:02:44. > :02:47.following the referendum Back here in the UK,

:02:48. > :02:50.the government is launching a consultation on how

:02:51. > :02:52.to speed up the process The Communities Secretary,

:02:53. > :02:56.Sajid Javid, wants to reduce the cost of buying a home and outlaw

:02:57. > :03:00.practices such as gazumping. He also suggested this

:03:01. > :03:03.morning that there would be more money for house building

:03:04. > :03:16.in the next month's Budget. We are looking at new investments. I

:03:17. > :03:19.am sure the budget will be covering housing. But what I want to do is

:03:20. > :03:24.make sure that we are using everything we have available to deal

:03:25. > :03:29.with this housing crisis. Where that means, for example, that we can

:03:30. > :03:31.sensibly borrow more to invest in the infrastructure that leads to

:03:32. > :03:35.more housing, take advantage of some of the record low interest rates we

:03:36. > :03:39.have, we should absolutely consider that.

:03:40. > :03:46.Let's pic up on that with our panel. What do you make of him saying there

:03:47. > :03:51.could be more money for investment? There is a bit of a split in the

:03:52. > :04:00.Tory party on this with people who are small majorities... The story of

:04:01. > :04:05.the 2017 election was mortgage owners and homeowners, more of them

:04:06. > :04:11.voted Conservative. Those people are very worried. They don't think Sajid

:04:12. > :04:15.Javid goes far enough. You have these Tories sitting in leafy seat

:04:16. > :04:19.with big majorities who worry that anything about increasing supply of

:04:20. > :04:22.housing will upset their constituents. There is a lot of

:04:23. > :04:28.nibbling around the edges when the real problem is supply. That is

:04:29. > :04:33.something that Labour failed to address and the Conservatives are

:04:34. > :04:39.still failing to address. On the ideological front in terms of

:04:40. > :04:45.borrowing, this is a shift from the Conservative government? Borrow to

:04:46. > :04:52.build? Where'er we that before? It was a big Lib Dem thing. No Sajid

:04:53. > :04:57.Javid, considered the pinnacle of free marketeer Tories, is coming up

:04:58. > :05:00.with it, too. This is the reality the Chancellor is facing in this

:05:01. > :05:07.budget. Every chancellor is under pressure to spend money. But he has

:05:08. > :05:13.got to pay for it is Newtown reversal, 2 billion, public sector

:05:14. > :05:15.pay rises, and now this huge plan on housing because Theresa May did not

:05:16. > :05:22.go far enough in his conference speech. What does he do? He borrows.

:05:23. > :05:28.The government has to look like it's doing something on the plastic front

:05:29. > :05:31.and to save the Chancellor's skin? The Chancellor emerged from the

:05:32. > :05:36.general election in a pretty strong position. Theresa May wanted to fire

:05:37. > :05:39.him. He seems to have squandered a lot of that political capital since.

:05:40. > :05:44.He is now really playing for his career. It is also very strange way

:05:45. > :05:51.to put together a budget. If you think back to when Gordon used to do

:05:52. > :05:55.it, or George Osborne, you wouldn't have had other ministers essentially

:05:56. > :05:59.bidding in public. That is a function of the fact that the Prime

:06:00. > :06:03.Minister and the Chancellor lacked authority and lack the ability to

:06:04. > :06:09.actually discipline any of those ministers. It is a bidding war. Even

:06:10. > :06:13.before the budget, there is a possibility we could see changes on

:06:14. > :06:17.Universal Credit. The government has already changed the helpline to make

:06:18. > :06:21.it free. We will be talking to Debbie Abrahams later. Do you think

:06:22. > :06:26.the government will have to make further changes to Universal Credit?

:06:27. > :06:30.I think they would be wise to. If there is an option of doing a

:06:31. > :06:34.U-turn, always do it. The helpline is a classic example. It was a

:06:35. > :06:39.concession made before PMQ. The other concessions will be more

:06:40. > :06:44.expensive. The whole way Universal Credit is built is a problem. This

:06:45. > :06:48.idea of paying and arrears is unfortunately very difficult for

:06:49. > :06:52.people whose lifestyles are chaotic, or have experienced illness, and

:06:53. > :06:55.they find it hard to budget. There are other problems so baked into

:06:56. > :06:59.Universal Credit they can't be solved. For example, that it goes to

:07:00. > :07:03.the head of the household rather than individual people. That is a

:07:04. > :07:06.problem for women suffering from domestic violence. It is inherent in

:07:07. > :07:11.that system. There is only so much tinkering. It is the six weight --

:07:12. > :07:15.week wait from the initial claim that has been making the headlines.

:07:16. > :07:21.Is that something the government can change? It will cost them. Any

:07:22. > :07:26.change to Universal Credit will cost them. The problem with Universal

:07:27. > :07:29.Credit is that everybody across the board, the Labour Party agreed it

:07:30. > :07:34.was the right thing to do, but it has been hollowed out macro year

:07:35. > :07:42.after year by largely George Osborne raiding Iain Duncan Smith's budget

:07:43. > :07:46.and adding extra weight etc. That comes to a huge amount of money. It

:07:47. > :07:53.makes Universal Credit a lot less effective. Some Tory MPs would say

:07:54. > :07:59.it is more unfair. At the moment the government has decided not to whip

:08:00. > :08:03.against the Labour motion, that was the moment we knew they would have

:08:04. > :08:07.to move on this. As a consequence of being a minority government, they

:08:08. > :08:12.simply do not have the numbers any more to stand up against Tory rebels

:08:13. > :08:15.in the centre, the more liberal minded Tory rebels who want to

:08:16. > :08:20.oppose it. They will have to make this change before the budget? I

:08:21. > :08:24.think they will have two. The other problem is that the whole world of

:08:25. > :08:29.work has actually changed, even in the time that this policy has been

:08:30. > :08:35.implemented. Design is ten years ago by Iain Duncan Smith in opposition,

:08:36. > :08:39.pushed through from 2010. US the rise of the gig economy, were a lot

:08:40. > :08:47.of people who work in temporary, low people -- low-paid work, appear on a

:08:48. > :08:51.48, 72 hour basis, with small amounts going into their account,

:08:52. > :08:56.rather than waiting for the monthly salary cheques. The problem with it,

:08:57. > :08:58.and we are about to find out, is it adaptable?

:08:59. > :09:01.We will pic up more on this later. Theresa May has repeatedly called

:09:02. > :09:04.for big tech companies to do more to tackle extremist content

:09:05. > :09:06.on their platforms. At the G7 this week internet

:09:07. > :09:08.companies like Twitter, Facebook and Google

:09:09. > :09:10.were once again brought face to face with ministers

:09:11. > :09:13.to be held to account. But with extremists always finding

:09:14. > :09:16.new ways to spread propaganda, is the political pressure

:09:17. > :09:19.on internet giants really having any effect?

:09:20. > :09:22.Emma Vardy has this report. After a series of terror attacks

:09:23. > :09:27.in the UK this year, Internet firms were accused of having

:09:28. > :09:30.blood on their hands. It was claimed it would take only

:09:31. > :09:34.minutes on Google to find bomb-making instructions

:09:35. > :09:37.for the device which detonated It believes the big web companies

:09:38. > :09:45.like Google, Facebook and Twitter now have

:09:46. > :09:48.a responsibility to play a much more proactive role in the

:09:49. > :09:52.fight against terror. Not only by taking down jihadist

:09:53. > :09:55.and right wing material, but also by developing ways

:09:56. > :09:58.to prevent extreme groups from having a presence

:09:59. > :10:00.on the platforms So, this is a national action

:10:01. > :10:07.video, a banned neo-Nazi And we reported this video

:10:08. > :10:13.to YouTube back in February. And yet we still find the same

:10:14. > :10:17.video up there again months later, but on

:10:18. > :10:22.somebody else's channel. As chair of the Home Affairs

:10:23. > :10:26.Select Committee, Yvette Cooper told me she has challenged

:10:27. > :10:29.Internet firms repeatedly over why material like this is

:10:30. > :10:32.so easily available. Why can't they just find a way

:10:33. > :10:36.to do their own searches and remove Tech firms were called

:10:37. > :10:43.to give evidence about this to the committee

:10:44. > :10:45.in February of this year. At that time they still

:10:46. > :10:49.refused to tell us even, for example, how many staff

:10:50. > :10:52.they had working on online And in the case of YouTube even

:10:53. > :10:58.refused to accept they had any responsibility to search proactively

:10:59. > :11:02.for this kind of illegal material. However, they still just don't go

:11:03. > :11:10.far enough to remove illegal material that they could very easily

:11:11. > :11:13.do, especially when these are some of the richest

:11:14. > :11:16.companies in the world. It ranges from hate speech

:11:17. > :11:20.and all the way through to the I've come to New Scotland Yard

:11:21. > :11:27.to meet an officer from a specialist police unit dealing

:11:28. > :11:30.with this every day. Because of the nature of his work,

:11:31. > :11:33.we can't show his identity Our remit is to facilitate

:11:34. > :11:39.the removal of extremist and terrorist material

:11:40. > :11:40.from the Internet. The material we ask to be removed

:11:41. > :11:43.has been scanned by human eye, and our officers

:11:44. > :11:47.have looked at it. From your perspective, what is your

:11:48. > :11:50.interaction like with the big We have a good working relationship

:11:51. > :11:54.with the big companies. Most of them have

:11:55. > :11:58.representatives in the UK. If we feel we need to

:11:59. > :12:01.escalate something, we can. At a day-to-day level,

:12:02. > :12:06.the people we engage with in the companies do take it

:12:07. > :12:09.extremely seriously. Google, which owns

:12:10. > :12:14.YouTube, relies not only on the police to help alert it

:12:15. > :12:17.to extremist content, but also works with a wide community of trusted

:12:18. > :12:22.flaggers and users with specialist But there are times when not

:12:23. > :12:28.everybody agrees on what should be taken down, or to draw the line

:12:29. > :12:31.on what constitutes speech. Academics at Kings College London

:12:32. > :12:39.are now working with Google to identify

:12:40. > :12:40.extremist material. Theresa May has called for this

:12:41. > :12:43.content to be taken down within But tech companies and experts say

:12:44. > :12:50.it's not that simple. YouTube posts lots of videos that

:12:51. > :12:58.document war crimes, committed either by Syrian rebel

:12:59. > :13:01.groups or the Syrian regime. These are very important

:13:02. > :13:03.videos for them to host. They will hopefully one day be

:13:04. > :13:05.used to bring criminals to justice who have committed

:13:06. > :13:07.horrific war crimes. That is a service that YouTube

:13:08. > :13:10.provides to humanity, in essence, by being able to be a repository

:13:11. > :13:13.for the documentation of crimes. Yet if you were to

:13:14. > :13:15.automate the process, those videos would be caught up

:13:16. > :13:17.in the same kind of way in which a beheading video would be

:13:18. > :13:20.captured or a propaganda So this is a

:13:21. > :13:23.labour-intensive process. So setting a target of two hours

:13:24. > :13:31.seems pretty arbitrary. Facebook and Google say

:13:32. > :13:37.they are beginning to use artificial intelligence to spot certain images

:13:38. > :13:41.and text related to terrorism. Twitter says it suspended nearly

:13:42. > :13:44.300,000 accounts in the first half YouTube redirects users

:13:45. > :13:48.searching for extremist And companies are now sharing

:13:49. > :13:56.databases of suspicious material and have set up the global Internet

:13:57. > :13:58.forum to bring together the But away from the big companies

:13:59. > :14:04.there is another problem. Much of the most serious extremist

:14:05. > :14:08.material has migrated onto smaller Now the semi-encrypted

:14:09. > :14:14.app Telegram, based in Russia, is the app choice

:14:15. > :14:17.for disseminating jihadist material. Telegram has taken

:14:18. > :14:21.on a life of its own. It seems to be the primary arena

:14:22. > :14:25.of activity now in which a lot People trying to give

:14:26. > :14:29.other people inspiration. These do disappear with relative

:14:30. > :14:31.frequency on Telegram, but they pop back up very, very quickly,

:14:32. > :14:36.in a way that they don't do Is it really fair,

:14:37. > :14:40.the amount of scrutiny put on the big companies at

:14:41. > :14:43.the moment, when actually a lot of extremist material is being shared

:14:44. > :14:46.on smaller platforms, and yet they can't be hauled in front

:14:47. > :14:49.of the select committee? So it is much harder

:14:50. > :14:52.when you get to some of these smaller platforms, the secure ones,

:14:53. > :14:56.and also some of them which may be located in countries where there

:14:57. > :15:00.is no effort to even have any proper action against them

:15:01. > :15:05.or proper standards in place. I don't think that lets

:15:06. > :15:08.the big companies off the hook, because given their global

:15:09. > :15:11.reach they have to do their bit. Some of those smaller

:15:12. > :15:16.companies are actually more dangerous and more challenging

:15:17. > :15:21.and more difficult to deal with. This week, the

:15:22. > :15:24.Director-General of MI5 said the UK will continue

:15:25. > :15:26.to be a target. Security services are in no doubt

:15:27. > :15:30.that material spread on social media and messaging apps is helping

:15:31. > :15:33.to direct and inspire With the work that's now been

:15:34. > :15:39.stepped up by Internet firms, in private at least,

:15:40. > :15:42.politicians now agree that But should there be more attacks,

:15:43. > :15:47.the tech companies know that unless even more tangible changes

:15:48. > :15:50.to their platforms can be seen, it will be them that can be

:15:51. > :16:01.in the firing line once again. We're joined now by the Home Office

:16:02. > :16:03.Minister, Brandon Lewis - But first let's speak

:16:04. > :16:06.to Sasha Havlicek, of the Institute for

:16:07. > :16:09.Strategic Dialogue, which has been given

:16:10. > :16:11.?1 million by Google to fund projects that help counter

:16:12. > :16:26.extremism in the UK. We saw Andrew Parker they're saying

:16:27. > :16:29.we face an extreme threat and he says tech companies have an ethical

:16:30. > :16:33.responsibility to do something about this, do you agree? I do, and I

:16:34. > :16:36.think they have committed to that, we have seen big changement and

:16:37. > :16:41.investments being made. There are three types of response that can

:16:42. > :16:44.happen, one you have talked about, the moderation and removal of

:16:45. > :16:49.extremist and terrorist content, that has been the large focus for

:16:50. > :16:52.Government, for the international community, we have seen a lot of

:16:53. > :16:57.pressure being put on companies to do more to automate their responses,

:16:58. > :17:02.for better or worse. Just to pick up on that, is it working? We saw

:17:03. > :17:06.examples there even on big sites like YouTube of extremist videos

:17:07. > :17:11.popping back up again? That is right, and there is migration to

:17:12. > :17:15.smaller platforms, this is a wider ecosystem so it is difficult.

:17:16. > :17:26.Efforts are being made in terms of our division intelligence, machine

:17:27. > :17:29.learning, but, as we've heard before, there is a massive challenge

:17:30. > :17:31.in terms of grey area content, context of content, and human review

:17:32. > :17:34.is important. But there are two ways to respond to this, and I believe

:17:35. > :17:36.there is an enormous amount that needs to be done and companies are

:17:37. > :17:39.investing. One is education and resilience, we all need to know

:17:40. > :17:42.better how to get resilient and respond to this sort of stuff...

:17:43. > :17:47.What do you mean, that viewers should look away from it rather than

:17:48. > :17:51.tech companies take it down? Not about looking away from it but civil

:17:52. > :17:55.society organisations need to challenge this, grey area content

:17:56. > :18:07.which is often not beheading videos but stuff about the good life, let's

:18:08. > :18:09.say, in Raqqa, telling you about the NHS providing fantastic services in

:18:10. > :18:12.Syria, which is difficult to take down, it is not obviously violent,

:18:13. > :18:14.much of it is not even branded material. We need competition

:18:15. > :18:16.strategies there, this is a battle of hearts and minds... That makes

:18:17. > :18:19.perfect sense but sounds like you are changing the subject from the

:18:20. > :18:22.fact you have been asked to remove extremist material more quickly and

:18:23. > :18:27.keep it off the web and that does not seem to be happening yet? That

:18:28. > :18:30.will never be the whole response to the problem and I think more is

:18:31. > :18:36.being done now to invest in ways in which to do that more speedily and

:18:37. > :18:40.more effectively, and the engagement of organisations like ours, like

:18:41. > :18:46.skin -- like King's College, organisations that can provide more

:18:47. > :18:50.input will help, but we also need to educate people to compete more

:18:51. > :18:53.effectively but also so they can understand the provenance of the

:18:54. > :18:58.content they are seeing so they understand what is propaganda, what

:18:59. > :19:03.is hate speech. Blizzard tools that young people and older people will

:19:04. > :19:07.need to have. It is not just a case of people exposed to extremist

:19:08. > :19:12.propaganda, though. Andrew Parker, the MI5 chief, was saying this week

:19:13. > :19:15.that plots are being hatched, people are using the Internet to

:19:16. > :19:18.communicate with each other and put together within hours plots that

:19:19. > :19:23.would have taken weeks previously. That is right and much of that

:19:24. > :19:27.happened in encrypted spaces. Propaganda seeks to interest and

:19:28. > :19:32.insight people, develop an interest in the organisations and pulled them

:19:33. > :19:38.progressively in. We need to combat that, provide counter content and

:19:39. > :19:43.compete effectively in that space, without also see direct engagement,

:19:44. > :19:48.extremists are effective at one-to-one messaging with people,

:19:49. > :19:52.giving vulnerable individuals to radicalisation a lot of time and

:19:53. > :19:57.love, and we need to be doing that, Internet companies have invested

:19:58. > :20:00.some innovative approaches to that direct counter speech, direct

:20:01. > :20:05.messaging and we do some of that, and we need to start to invest in

:20:06. > :20:09.scaling up innovations within civil society. This Google Grant, the

:20:10. > :20:17.innovation fund, is about equipping civil society, educators, social

:20:18. > :20:22.companies, we need to do much more at a civic level to respond. We will

:20:23. > :20:28.leave it there for now and bring in the Home Office minister Brandon

:20:29. > :20:31.Lewis. Listening to that, are you satisfied that tech companies are

:20:32. > :20:35.giving enough? They were put on notice a month ago by the Prime

:20:36. > :20:40.Minister, the deadline has run out, have they met your expectations? As

:20:41. > :20:44.you said, the Prime Minister held that meeting a month ago and I think

:20:45. > :20:48.the Prime Minister and Amber Rudd as Home Secretary have globally led the

:20:49. > :20:51.way on this. There is more to do and the Internet companies themselves

:20:52. > :20:56.are recognising that. What we have heard in the clips you have played

:20:57. > :21:01.if this is a hugely complex area, but we need to see big Internet

:21:02. > :21:05.companies doing more. What Sasha was saying there and what we heard in

:21:06. > :21:08.the film is that it can be difficult to work out what is extremist

:21:09. > :21:12.material, some of it will be obvious but some of it may not necessarily

:21:13. > :21:16.be obviously so and therefore easy to take down within two hours, which

:21:17. > :21:22.is what the Prime Minister suggested. Who is it up to what is

:21:23. > :21:27.extremist and what is Free Speech? You are right, that is why this is

:21:28. > :21:30.such a complex area. I agree with the lady who outlined the fact that

:21:31. > :21:34.this is not just about making sure we see the material come down in two

:21:35. > :21:38.hours, we do want Internet companies to do that and work towards

:21:39. > :21:43.technology which stops it coming up in a first prize, but it is also

:21:44. > :21:48.about educating ourselves and having civil society involved in this, and

:21:49. > :21:51.that is why we are working with tech companies inputting time, effort and

:21:52. > :21:55.money into working with community groups and local authorities to make

:21:56. > :21:58.sure we educate people around what this content is and what is right

:21:59. > :22:03.about the British society and why we should continue to promote that and

:22:04. > :22:07.resist this kind of Divergent from terrorist organisations, but we do

:22:08. > :22:10.need to make sure we have protections and the Internet does

:22:11. > :22:15.not become a back door for terrorists to act. But you have set

:22:16. > :22:23.this limit on tech companies of two hours whilst simultaneously saying

:22:24. > :22:25.it is difficult to determine what is extremist propaganda, and you don't

:22:26. > :22:28.even seem to know who is the final arbiter of what is extremist and

:22:29. > :22:31.what is not? What is clear is we have had examples, as you showed a

:22:32. > :22:36.few minutes ago, are people being able to go online, download, look

:22:37. > :22:40.at, and upload in the past, terrorist material, how to commit a

:22:41. > :22:43.terrorist atrocity. We need to make sure that the access to technology

:22:44. > :22:47.ensures those sites not only come down quickly but the ideal is when

:22:48. > :22:51.they are not able to go up in the first place, so you will remember in

:22:52. > :23:13.the Prime Minister's speech, the Home Secretary's speech at

:23:14. > :23:16.the conference, outlining to the walls around the sentencing for

:23:17. > :23:19.criminals and people who download this material and continue to view

:23:20. > :23:21.it, as well as those using it to commit atrocities. In Germany there

:23:22. > :23:24.is a new law meaning companies can be fined 50 million euros if illegal

:23:25. > :23:26.content is not taken down within 24 hours, with the UK Government

:23:27. > :23:28.consider something similar? We have said all along we restrict ourselves

:23:29. > :23:31.from not looking at legislation at all, it is very much part of the

:23:32. > :23:33.artillery that central Government has, looking at legislation, but we

:23:34. > :23:36.are also clear that the real winner on this is to get Internet companies

:23:37. > :23:39.fulfilling their moral and ethical duties, technology is moving so fast

:23:40. > :23:41.now, we need to make sure we moved with it, the weight legislation

:23:42. > :23:43.cannot always do, and that is why it is right that Internet companies

:23:44. > :24:03.take the responsibility, and not just the big companies but there are

:24:04. > :24:05.lots of small and medium companies out there, so having the ability for

:24:06. > :24:08.those big companies to work with, do presentations for, help small and

:24:09. > :24:10.medium companies means we are all internationally protected as well,

:24:11. > :24:12.it has to be a global approach. We know the Internet sees their

:24:13. > :24:15.boundaries, does not understand the boundaries we see on a map of the

:24:16. > :24:17.world. We have to make sure technology can keep up with that.

:24:18. > :24:20.Brandon Lewis, thank you. If I can pick up one last point with you,

:24:21. > :24:22.Sasha, where there are companies like Telegram, based in Russia,

:24:23. > :24:25.mentioned in the film, there is nothing we can do from here to stop

:24:26. > :24:28.extremist material on that. Can there be a global effort for an

:24:29. > :24:34.international standard? I think that is exactly the point of the global

:24:35. > :24:37.Internet forum on counterterrorism, we have been working on a

:24:38. > :24:41.classification framework not for the big companies but for the smaller

:24:42. > :24:46.ones, to train them up on that, as it has been noted they have variable

:24:47. > :24:49.capacity in terms of being able to monitor and remove this kind of

:24:50. > :24:53.content, but also the knowledge is lacking so there is more we can do

:24:54. > :24:56.in that space. There is need for a bigger evidence base in

:24:57. > :25:08.understanding what is it we are trying to do, so when Twitter says

:25:09. > :25:10.300,000 bits of accounts removed, is that great news, bad news? We need

:25:11. > :25:13.to have a common framework for measuring success and we hope very

:25:14. > :25:15.much to work towards that. Thanks very much for that.

:25:16. > :25:18.So, as expected, when EU leaders met in Brussels on Friday, they decided

:25:19. > :25:20.that not enough progress had been made for the Brexit negotiations

:25:21. > :25:24.to move onto the next stage of talks about a possible new trade deal.

:25:25. > :25:27.But they did give the go-ahead for EU officials to start preparing

:25:28. > :25:29.for those trade talks, which could now begin in December.

:25:30. > :25:33.For that to happen, there will need to be an agreement on the so-called

:25:34. > :25:36.divorce bill, and on that the two sides still look a long way apart.

:25:37. > :25:39.The UK wants the divorce bill to be as low as possible,

:25:40. > :25:42.but all the other 27 EU countries want it to be as higher.

:25:43. > :25:45.Because when Britain leaves, there will be a hole in the EU

:25:46. > :25:47.budget and they'll have to cover the shortfall.

:25:48. > :25:52.The bill covers things like the pensions of former EU

:25:53. > :25:54.staff, the cost of relocating EU agencies based in the UK,

:25:55. > :25:56.and outstanding commitments to EU programmes.

:25:57. > :25:58.EU sources have put the total at anything between 50 billion

:25:59. > :26:09.The UK has agreed to meet its financial obligations,

:26:10. > :26:12.but Brexit secretary David Davis has said, "We will not be

:26:13. > :26:15.And Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson suggested European

:26:16. > :26:19.In her Florence speech last month, the Prime Minister indicated the UK

:26:20. > :26:25.But at this week's summit, there were whispers that Theresa May

:26:26. > :26:27.has privately reassured the other EU leaders

:26:28. > :26:31.that she is willing to pay a lot more.

:26:32. > :26:32.French President Emmanuel Macron says,

:26:33. > :26:34."We are not halfway there", creating speculation that he thinks

:26:35. > :26:37.the bill should be should be more than 40 billion euros.

:26:38. > :26:40.We're joined now from Salford by the Conservative MP and Leave

:26:41. > :26:44.And from Rome, by the Italian MEP, Roberto Gualtieri, who sits

:26:45. > :26:49.on the European Parliament's Brexit Steering Group.

:26:50. > :26:58.If I can come to you first, Nigel Adams, what do you think the bill

:26:59. > :27:02.ought to be? Has the Prime Minister got any political room to move above

:27:03. > :27:07.something like 20 billion euros? Can she sell it to the party if it is

:27:08. > :27:10.more than that? 20 billion relates to the two-year transition, our

:27:11. > :27:15.membership during that period of time. Anything else above that

:27:16. > :27:18.should clearly relate to our contractual obligations, you

:27:19. > :27:22.mentioned a few of them. We want to make certain that Lord Peter

:27:23. > :27:25.Mandelson gets his pension in do is old age and clearly there will be

:27:26. > :27:34.all sorts of British people who work at the European Union, their

:27:35. > :27:36.pensions need to be looked after, you mentioned EU institutions moving

:27:37. > :27:39.from Britain back to the EU. If that is the case clearly there will be

:27:40. > :27:42.costs to that. But there seems to be a lot of Enid Blyton figures

:27:43. > :27:44.floating around. You quite rightly said at the beginning of the

:27:45. > :27:49.programme that the European Union is coming at it from a stance of

:27:50. > :27:51.wanting as much money as they can from the United Kingdom in order

:27:52. > :27:56.that they don't have to fill the hole that is created, and I come at

:27:57. > :27:59.it from the fact that I've percent 75,000 people in the Ribble Valley

:28:00. > :28:02.and want to make sure that we only pay what we need to because we want

:28:03. > :28:06.the rest of the money spent on British public services in

:28:07. > :28:12.hospitals, schools, the police force and Armed Forces. That is where I am

:28:13. > :28:17.coming from and I think it behoves people like Roberto in Rome to look

:28:18. > :28:21.practically at what that figure is because you just don't make it up,

:28:22. > :28:25.it has to actually relate to something. I know you are not going

:28:26. > :28:29.to put a figure on it here today for that very reason but there must be

:28:30. > :28:35.limits beyond which you would not go? David Davis said 100 billion new

:28:36. > :28:39.roads would be unacceptable. Does sporty or the billion euros feel

:28:40. > :28:44.like something the UK could agree to? -- 40 or 50 billion euros. Only

:28:45. > :28:51.if it relates to something we can actually see that we owe. 100

:28:52. > :28:56.billion does seem rather fanciful to me. I want to make sure, I am

:28:57. > :29:00.clinically optimistic about Britain leaving the European Union and

:29:01. > :29:04.wanting the United Kingdom to assist the rest of the 27 into grooming.

:29:05. > :29:09.Roberto knows in his country they have youth unemployment of 35%,

:29:10. > :29:13.which is awful... Let's bring Roberto Gualtieri in at that point,

:29:14. > :29:17.thank you for joining us from Rome. Nigel Evans does not want to put a

:29:18. > :29:21.figure on what the UK Government would be prepared to pay. Do you

:29:22. > :29:26.think the EU have a figure in mind of what they think is an acceptable

:29:27. > :29:35.divorce Bill? No, we want first to agree on a method of forming a

:29:36. > :29:38.general commitment to the obligations that are stemming from

:29:39. > :29:45.membership of the union in numbers, so we are not yet at the point of

:29:46. > :29:50.numbers. We would like exacted a start doing that exercise, to go

:29:51. > :29:54.line by line to find what is a commitment, what does it mean, and

:29:55. > :30:00.so prepared the ground for arriving at a number. So far this exercise

:30:01. > :30:05.has been postponed by the UK, and I welcome the readiness to enter and

:30:06. > :30:08.start doing this exercise, which is essential to move to the second

:30:09. > :30:11.phase. I was going to ask, talks have been going on in Brussels for

:30:12. > :30:14.weeks, if they have not been going online by line through the

:30:15. > :30:20.commitments, what have they been doing? Sorry, I did not get the

:30:21. > :30:24.question? What has been going on in the talks if it is not going through

:30:25. > :30:29.the commitments to work out what the UK owes?

:30:30. > :30:37.Payal on the financial settlement we lost a lot of time because for the

:30:38. > :30:42.first phase the UK was putting into place the principle of meeting the

:30:43. > :30:47.moral obligation. Theresa May's speech in Florence was positive in a

:30:48. > :30:52.sense. This has not yet been translated into a very practical

:30:53. > :30:58.exercise of going line by line across the budget. The

:30:59. > :31:03.liabilities... There is a lot of technical stuff. It is very tech --

:31:04. > :31:09.concrete when we transform it in reality. It is a complex exercise

:31:10. > :31:14.and we need to start this as soon as possible. Nigel Adams -- Nigel

:31:15. > :31:22.Evans, you are nodding enthusiastically. They haven't been

:31:23. > :31:26.prepared to go line by line through their financial commitments? As far

:31:27. > :31:29.as I'm aware the United Kingdom is not holding back at all. We have

:31:30. > :31:32.been told we can't macro start talking about trade until the

:31:33. > :31:37.divorce payments have been settled. They need to get on with that.

:31:38. > :31:42.Roberta knows that Britain has got a ?7 billion deficit with Italy. We

:31:43. > :31:50.love buying your Prasad go, your car is, your fashion, we want to carry

:31:51. > :31:53.on doing that. The sooner that we can get to this so-called divorce

:31:54. > :31:56.settlement figure dealt with we can ensure that we have got as

:31:57. > :32:01.frictionless as possible a trade deal between the European Union and

:32:02. > :32:05.the United Kingdom, it is going to benefit everybody. We just want to

:32:06. > :32:11.get on with it. Nigel Evans says we can't macro agree divorce bill we

:32:12. > :32:16.had agree -- see what the trade situation looks like. It is

:32:17. > :32:22.impossible to agree that some until the trade talks have been resolved?

:32:23. > :32:27.We are confusing things. We want to start the discussion on the trade

:32:28. > :32:32.agreement, which is very important, but to do that we need to settle the

:32:33. > :32:36.main element of the withdrawal agreement. Divorce first is the

:32:37. > :32:42.logic principle. Even the logic of my interlocutor who says we want to

:32:43. > :32:46.pay what is needed, not more, requires this exercise. We look

:32:47. > :32:50.forward to starting this exercise. The sooner we start this exercise

:32:51. > :32:54.that I described before, the sooner we can enter into the discussion on

:32:55. > :32:58.the element of the future trade relationship. Nigel Evans, the UK

:32:59. > :33:02.government did agree to the sequencing of these talks, but the

:33:03. > :33:07.divorce arrangement would be settled before trade. But it sounds now like

:33:08. > :33:11.you and others are saying you won't agree a divorce Bill until you know

:33:12. > :33:17.the shape of the trade deal? We all want Britain to have a clean break

:33:18. > :33:23.by 2019, with the transitional arrangement where absolutely

:33:24. > :33:27.necessary. Right that there are -- right the very beginning, Theresa

:33:28. > :33:31.May offered an olive branch new citizens -- EU citizens living in

:33:32. > :33:35.the United Kingdom. We have 600,000 Italians living in the UK and we

:33:36. > :33:39.want them to stay. For all sorts of reasons that has been held up by the

:33:40. > :33:43.European Union. I believe Roberta and I as politicians are probably

:33:44. > :33:48.got more in common than that which separates us. He wants to ensure a

:33:49. > :33:54.timely departure from the UK. As one of his MEP compatriots said in the

:33:55. > :33:59.European Parliament two weeks ago, why would you want to punish the

:34:00. > :34:03.United Kingdom? As long as Roberto comes added from the same place as I

:34:04. > :34:07.do, we don't want to punish anybody, we can get on with what we need to

:34:08. > :34:13.do to make sure that Brexit happens in the best interest of Italy, the

:34:14. > :34:20.UK and the other countries. Absolutely. We don't want to punish

:34:21. > :34:24.anybody. We don't want to punish the UK citizens, or EU taxpayers, that

:34:25. > :34:28.they don't have to pay for commitments they can get in other

:34:29. > :34:35.countries. We are very happy now that Theresa May has introduced a

:34:36. > :34:42.number of important elements on citizens' rights. We are ready to

:34:43. > :34:46.finalise them. So there is in effect no administrative burden, which is

:34:47. > :34:50.imported. We need to simplify the procedure. Safeguard all the rights

:34:51. > :34:54.for the future. These are important things. This is our priority and we

:34:55. > :34:56.look forward to finalising it as soon as possible in the withdrawal

:34:57. > :34:57.agreement. Thank you very much.

:34:58. > :35:00.The time has just gone 11.30, and we say goodbye now

:35:01. > :35:03.to viewers in Scotland, who leave us for the Sunday Politics Scotland.

:35:04. > :35:06.Away from Brexit, Labour have been making the running this week

:35:07. > :35:08.with its attacks on the government's flagship welfare reform,

:35:09. > :35:13.On Wednesday, the Work and Pensions Secretary, David Gauke,

:35:14. > :35:15.bowed to pressure by abolishing charges

:35:16. > :35:19.In a moment we'll be talking to his opposite number,

:35:20. > :35:25.First, Ellie Price, has taken the mood box to Canterbury to ask

:35:26. > :35:29.what people there think of the welfare system.

:35:30. > :35:31.Welcome to Canterbury, a city where, as long

:35:32. > :35:33.as anyone can remember, it's

:35:34. > :35:38.That was, of course, until June, when

:35:39. > :35:41.Labour took it with a majority of less than 200.

:35:42. > :35:44.What we're asking people today is about the benefits

:35:45. > :35:51.system - do they think it's too cruel, or too kind?

:35:52. > :35:54.We can't have people on the bread line, we can't have people

:35:55. > :35:58.just trying to get through, it's just not right.

:35:59. > :36:02.I just think it's abused by a lot of people.

:36:03. > :36:04.People call people scroungers, but they don't know what

:36:05. > :36:09.And I'm a Christian as well, so being a

:36:10. > :36:12.Christian socialist, to me it's logical.

:36:13. > :36:14.Too cruel to the people who actually need it, but too kind to the

:36:15. > :36:18.Generally, in comparison to the rest of the world,

:36:19. > :36:23.A lot of people out there, it's quite easier to go

:36:24. > :36:27.than it is to go out and look for a job, you know?

:36:28. > :36:30.If the benefits are too generous, I've had it before at work

:36:31. > :36:32.when people actually say, "Oh, sorry, I can't work

:36:33. > :36:37.the job because I'm going to be worse off because I earn more on my

:36:38. > :36:41.Things are tough generally for everybody, I know, but

:36:42. > :36:44.my feeling is that actually there is good support in place.

:36:45. > :36:46.But to say it's too generous or it's too harsh,

:36:47. > :36:50.to be honest I find that difficult, I feel I need to give the ball back.

:36:51. > :36:53.I don't mind paying for it if it's genuine, but I know families,

:36:54. > :36:56.generation after generation, who've never worked, never will work.

:36:57. > :37:08.If that's all the balls meaning that people think it's too kind...

:37:09. > :37:16.Some of my friends are in that position where

:37:17. > :37:21.they've had their benefits stopped and been forced into work.

:37:22. > :37:23.Because everything is dearer anyway, and they

:37:24. > :37:27.never give you anything extra, do they?

:37:28. > :37:29.You have to wait six weeks for your money to come

:37:30. > :37:35.When you're right on the edge of everything, six weeks is enough to

:37:36. > :37:38.put you in debt which you cannot get out of.

:37:39. > :37:41.So I think the current benefits system is absolutely too

:37:42. > :37:48.The storm for now is over, and so is the mood box.

:37:49. > :37:53.And while several people said they thought that

:37:54. > :37:55.the benefits system was broadly about right,

:37:56. > :37:57.of those who voted in the

:37:58. > :38:01.mood box today say, no, it's too cruel.

:38:02. > :38:02.And the Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary,

:38:03. > :38:17.In the debate in the Commons this week led by Labour, you called for a

:38:18. > :38:22.pause in the roll-out of Universal Credit. Why not scrap it altogether?

:38:23. > :38:26.Because we have always agreed with the principles which are around

:38:27. > :38:30.simplifying the Social Security system of ensuring that work pays.

:38:31. > :38:37.There are a number of fundamental flaws. On top of that we have seen

:38:38. > :38:40.in the budget various cuts and the freeze to Social Security payments.

:38:41. > :38:45.On top of that we have had various administrative issues. We are

:38:46. > :38:49.calling for a pause and I will work with the government to fix these

:38:50. > :38:54.fundamental issues. It is not just the fact it changes the way in which

:38:55. > :38:57.benefits are paid. As it is going to be implemented, many working

:38:58. > :39:02.households will lose an average of ?1300 a year if it -- if they have

:39:03. > :39:06.got children. We would expect the Labour Party to be shedding more

:39:07. > :39:12.likely about that? We have been, to be fair. In the summer you mentioned

:39:13. > :39:19.the average of ?1000. Lone parents can lose up to ?4000 a year. This is

:39:20. > :39:25.absolutely massive. Then there is a consequence of knocking people into

:39:26. > :39:28.debt, rent arrears. I had a nurse, a single mum, and she had converted

:39:29. > :39:32.from tax credits to Universal Credit in the summer. She had the six-week

:39:33. > :39:38.wait, she went into arrears and she has just been served an eviction

:39:39. > :39:41.notice. This is because it is being rolled out, currently 600,000, a

:39:42. > :39:45.million in the next six months. We really need to stop this. Use aid is

:39:46. > :39:51.about the amount of money people are being paid as well as how they are

:39:52. > :39:55.paid it. -- you say it is about. What we have said is first of all we

:39:56. > :40:01.want to see a reduction in terms of the time that people wait. I

:40:02. > :40:05.understand that. But looking at the amount of money people get in every

:40:06. > :40:10.month, how much would Labour committed to increasing the benefit?

:40:11. > :40:14.We want to work with the government. We recognise there are difficulties.

:40:15. > :40:18.We have set by ?10 billion over the next Parliament to make sure that we

:40:19. > :40:25.would add in that element about ensuring that work pays. It is not

:40:26. > :40:30.currently doing that. ?10 billion for Universal Credit? Yes, to

:40:31. > :40:34.transform it. A key Social Security programme. How much on other welfare

:40:35. > :40:39.benefits would Labour be prepared to spend? People in Canterbury say the

:40:40. > :40:45.system is too cruel. What would Labour be prepared to spend? For

:40:46. > :40:49.example, for disabled people, there have been a number of cuts around

:40:50. > :40:53.that. The employment support allowance group, who are deemed as

:40:54. > :40:58.possibly being fit for working in the future, have had about ?1500 a

:40:59. > :41:02.year taken off them. That started in April. We said we would reinstate

:41:03. > :41:06.that. We would reinstate the Personal Independent Payment for

:41:07. > :41:11.people with mental health problems. How much extra money would you be

:41:12. > :41:15.paying for extra benefits? I know you have policies on the bedroom

:41:16. > :41:21.close etc. How much additional money would Labour be prepared to put into

:41:22. > :41:24.the welfare system? If we look at reinstating those particular cuts

:41:25. > :41:30.and transforming Universal Credit, it works out at about ?4 billion

:41:31. > :41:34.every year. The IFA 's think the government is saving ?15 billion a

:41:35. > :41:40.year with the welfare changes. -- the ISS. We're looking around at

:41:41. > :41:44.other commitments. We know there would be additional revenue created

:41:45. > :41:50.from reintroducing the real living wage of ?10 an hour. That would lead

:41:51. > :41:53.to about 3.6 billion extra in the Treasury coffers. We want to make

:41:54. > :41:57.sure that we look at it in the round. But you are not committing

:41:58. > :42:02.that money to welfare benefits. Don't you feel as if you are putting

:42:03. > :42:04.your money where your mouth is? Well, it is. We need to look at it

:42:05. > :42:08.in the context of other offers we Well, it is. We need to look at it

:42:09. > :42:15.are making. If we look at the housing offer, nearly a quarter of

:42:16. > :42:18.the spending is around housing benefit and a quarter of that goes

:42:19. > :42:24.to private landlords. We want to make sure that we are again making

:42:25. > :42:28.sure that rents come down and we're not paying so much on housing

:42:29. > :42:32.benefit. There are other financial commitments. Labour committed to the

:42:33. > :42:37.triple for pensions. Because of the inflation rate they will be getting

:42:38. > :42:42.an of 3%. There is a freeze on what welfare benefits are paid. Is that

:42:43. > :42:46.right? We think it is right that we shouldn't be pushing sick and

:42:47. > :42:52.disabled people, or older people into poverty. 300,000 more older

:42:53. > :42:59.people have been pushed into poverty since 2010. We believe it is the

:43:00. > :43:04.right thing to do. Let me just finish this point. We have also said

:43:05. > :43:08.that we wanted to make sure that we extend the freeze to working age

:43:09. > :43:14.people. We are looking at it in the context. We should not be pitting

:43:15. > :43:19.one generation against the other. You have made other commitments like

:43:20. > :43:23.free tuition fees, for instance, which would cost many billion pounds

:43:24. > :43:27.a year. Why is that more important than helping the very poorest

:43:28. > :43:33.households in the country? It's definitely not. What we need to do

:43:34. > :43:39.is develop... We know we have 7.4 million working people living in

:43:40. > :43:42.poverty. Absolutely outrageous for the fifth richest country in the

:43:43. > :43:47.world to have that level. Three out of the 4 million children living in

:43:48. > :43:52.poverty are from working families. We need to make sure our vision for

:43:53. > :43:57.a high-paid, high skill economy is delivered. The way we will deliver

:43:58. > :44:02.that is by improving the skill base and ensuring that we invest and

:44:03. > :44:07.support our industries, especially small businesses. We need to make

:44:08. > :44:10.sure that this balance is achieved. Can you give a commitment that you

:44:11. > :44:16.would reverse all the cuts to working age benefits that you argued

:44:17. > :44:20.against? I can commit that we will make things fairer for people who

:44:21. > :44:24.are in and out of work. But not that you will actually reverse the cuts

:44:25. > :44:30.made by this government? You have seen the grade book, Sarah, so you

:44:31. > :44:36.know exactly what we have committed to. We will make sure that in

:44:37. > :44:40.addition to providing a real living wage of ?10 an hour, working eight

:44:41. > :44:45.support will be there. If you are in and out of work, we will support

:44:46. > :44:49.you. The communities secretary has been

:44:50. > :44:52.saying this morning that the government will borrow money to

:44:53. > :44:59.invest in housing. What is your response? If it is at the levels

:45:00. > :45:03.that we have had, about 300,000, is that correct? It a little bit less.

:45:04. > :45:07.We committed to 500,000 a year. It is less than we would like to see.

:45:08. > :45:10.It is a move in the right direction. It needs to be the right type of

:45:11. > :45:15.housing. Social and affordable housing is so important. It will

:45:16. > :45:16.help me in terms of bringing my social security spending down around

:45:17. > :45:17.housing benefit. Thank you. I will be back with our political

:45:18. > :45:22.panel in 20 minutes. First though, its time for

:45:23. > :45:32.the Sunday Politics where you are. Hello, welcome to the London

:45:33. > :45:34.part of the show. Joining us for the duration,

:45:35. > :45:38.Tulip Siddiq, Labour MP for Hampstead and Kilburn,

:45:39. > :45:40.whose aunt is Prime And Paul Scully, Conservative MP

:45:41. > :45:46.for Sutton and Cheam, who is co-chair of the all-party

:45:47. > :45:48.parliamentary group And I want to start by asking

:45:49. > :45:56.you both about your reflections on the humanitarian crisis

:45:57. > :45:58.in Myanmar, and the plight I understand you were there

:45:59. > :46:02.on the border very recently, Paul? I went with the Conservative Friends

:46:03. > :46:04.of Bangladesh for a week, but we spent two days in Cox's Bazar

:46:05. > :46:07.on the border and in We saw some really horrific things

:46:08. > :46:11.and heard some horrific things and we were determined to come back

:46:12. > :46:14.and tell those people's Well, let's take a look

:46:15. > :46:17.at some of the pictures, because there are quite distressing

:46:18. > :46:20.images of a mass exodus leaving These were the streams of people

:46:21. > :46:29.that were captured on film by the BBC, and they're arriving

:46:30. > :46:32.and they're being looked after in camps in Bangladesh,

:46:33. > :46:35.and of course with your connections there, Tulip, your aunt of course

:46:36. > :46:39.in her leadership role You're probably aware, Jo,

:46:40. > :46:47.that Bangladesh is the eighth most populous country in the world,

:46:48. > :46:51.so it's not a very rich country, it's also a very young country,

:46:52. > :46:56.it only came into being in 1971, and it's taking in these

:46:57. > :47:00.refugees, the Rohingya. It's very difficult,

:47:01. > :47:02.from what I can imagine It doesn't have a lot of money,

:47:03. > :47:11.the country doesn't have a lot of money, and they have half

:47:12. > :47:13.a million people from the Rohingya community living

:47:14. > :47:15.in Bangladesh at the moment, What about reflections

:47:16. > :47:19.by Bangladeshis here in London? Sending shockwaves, no doubt,

:47:20. > :47:22.through the capital? That's right, and, as I mentioned,

:47:23. > :47:28.Bangladesh is a very young country, it only came into being in 1971,

:47:29. > :47:32.so the war of independence is still very much in people's minds,

:47:33. > :47:34.and that was called a genocide, and what's happening now in Myanmar

:47:35. > :47:37.has the hallmarks of a genocide, which is why people

:47:38. > :47:39.are so sympathetic. Paul, you are the first MP

:47:40. > :47:42.in the House of Commons of Burmese heritage,

:47:43. > :47:44.why has Aung Sang Suu Kyi not spoken out about the atrocities

:47:45. > :47:46.going on in Myanmar? Well, the fact that my

:47:47. > :47:50.father was born there, it absolutely breaks my heart

:47:51. > :47:53.to see this happening. I said in Parliament last week that

:47:54. > :47:56.Aung San Suu Kyi should be speaking out more clearly,

:47:57. > :47:58.but who we need to be focusing our ire on is a guy

:47:59. > :48:01.called Min Aung Hlaing, He's the guy that can

:48:02. > :48:04.stop this tomorrow. But she could stop

:48:05. > :48:07.it if she spoke out. She is such an influential person

:48:08. > :48:10.not just in her own country She's a person of influence,

:48:11. > :48:15.but she's a de facto leader - the military still have a huge

:48:16. > :48:18.influence on the government and they also run that state,

:48:19. > :48:21.the Rakhine state, as well. They're the ones actually

:48:22. > :48:23.that we need to put pressure Right, but she has an overwhelmingly

:48:24. > :48:31.popular mandate, and she has said no conflict has taken place since 5th

:48:32. > :48:33.September, and no Well that clearly isn't the case,

:48:34. > :48:37.we've seen the evidence? Well, I've smelt the evidence,

:48:38. > :48:40.actually, I saw the smoke on the Burmese border,

:48:41. > :48:43.I could smell the smoke on the Burmese border, so, yes,

:48:44. > :48:47.that's absolutely incorrect, which is why we need to get better

:48:48. > :48:50.access into Rakhine state Do you think she's been very,

:48:51. > :48:54.very seriously damaged in terms I think we can see how

:48:55. > :48:58.people have called her out across the world,

:48:59. > :49:00.there is a definite But I think what we've got to do,

:49:01. > :49:04.as well as calling out the disproportionate response

:49:05. > :49:07.from the Burmese military, we've actually got to find a solution,

:49:08. > :49:10.and it's a really complex situation because the Burmese people

:49:11. > :49:12.are actually behind her in this, surprisingly, but they are actually

:49:13. > :49:16.behind her as a popular movement. In terms of what should

:49:17. > :49:20.be done here, Tulip, do you think she should be stripped

:49:21. > :49:24.of her freedom of the city honour In my opinion, one woman's silence

:49:25. > :49:29.means there's ethnic We're sitting here watching her

:49:30. > :49:36.while she doesn't say anything. I'm one of those people

:49:37. > :49:38.who grew up watching Aung San Suu Kyi and thinking,

:49:39. > :49:42."This woman is amazing." There's nothing I can say

:49:43. > :49:45.to defend her silence. Where she might not directly be

:49:46. > :49:48.in power, she has enough influence to call out the rape,

:49:49. > :49:52.the abuse, the murder, the torture that's happening

:49:53. > :49:55.to all the people in Myanmar So, in my opinion, any honours

:49:56. > :49:59.that she has have to be taken away, but first and foremost she needs

:50:00. > :50:02.to speak out, because there is ethnic cleansing of the Rohingya

:50:03. > :50:05.community right now. It's been four months

:50:06. > :50:11.since the fire at Grenfell Tower, which killed an estimated 80 people

:50:12. > :50:14.and left hundreds homeless. So far, only 14 families

:50:15. > :50:19.have been re-housed. This week there has been a row over

:50:20. > :50:22.the future of the Kensington and Chelsea tenant management

:50:23. > :50:24.organisation, the body once While work began this week

:50:25. > :50:34.to screen Grenfell Tower, there was also considerable anger

:50:35. > :50:37.over plans to disband the organisation that was

:50:38. > :50:40.responsible for it at the time Residents fear that a bid to wind up

:50:41. > :50:46.the Kensington and Chelsea tenant management organisation,

:50:47. > :50:54.known as the TMO, would leave them without a voice over

:50:55. > :50:56.how their homes are run, The TMO was stripped of its contract

:50:57. > :51:04.to manage nearly 10,000 properties on behalf of the council,

:51:05. > :51:08.but many residents still want it to be in a position to be

:51:09. > :51:11.held to account over Right now, all these people

:51:12. > :51:15.are heading into the AGM of that In that meeting, they were going

:51:16. > :51:20.to be asked to relinquish their membership and voting rights

:51:21. > :51:23.to allow the council to take control Lawyers representing

:51:24. > :51:29.the bereaved had warned that, if that was to happen,

:51:30. > :51:32.it could hinder bringing corporate manslaughter charges and civil

:51:33. > :51:36.lawsuits against the TMO, so residents are claiming a victory

:51:37. > :51:39.after those present at the meeting Gordon Futter proposed

:51:40. > :51:44.the postponement. That is the first time in 20

:51:45. > :51:48.years that we've won a battle against the TMO,

:51:49. > :51:51.so wonderful, it feels great. If we begin that process of proper,

:51:52. > :51:54.real consultation, that will begin a healing process

:51:55. > :51:58.that we desperately Both the TMO and the council

:51:59. > :52:02.were widely criticised Joe Delaney from the Grenfell Action

:52:03. > :52:08.Group believes the handling of this situation has

:52:09. > :52:12.further undermined trust. It's their actions in this

:52:13. > :52:15.which ensure that they certainly aren't on the road to rebuilding

:52:16. > :52:18.that trust at the moment, and that's Melvyn Atkins grew up

:52:19. > :52:21.near Grenfell Tower He says many want to see the TMO

:52:22. > :52:28.dismantled, but at the right time. I think it's wrong to make

:52:29. > :52:32.decisions over people's lives I think people have had enough and,

:52:33. > :52:38.unfortunately, it shouldn't take the events of something as horrific

:52:39. > :52:41.as Grenfell Tower to engage people and make them realise that,

:52:42. > :52:44.actually, we are going to stand up The Labour MP for the area

:52:45. > :52:49.echoes those criticisms. It looks like another glorious mess

:52:50. > :52:53.and utter chaos on behalf of the TMO We've had too much of that

:52:54. > :52:58.in the past few months. We need a bit of clarity,

:52:59. > :53:00.we need some honesty, and that's the only way that anybody

:53:01. > :53:04.will begin to trust them. The deputy leader of Kensington

:53:05. > :53:10.and Chelsea council said their aim had been to work directly

:53:11. > :53:12.with residents, rather He gave certain guarantees

:53:13. > :53:16.if the council was to take The TMO would not be wound up,

:53:17. > :53:21.it would be kept, it would be supported to fulfil its obligations

:53:22. > :53:24.to both the police inquiry and the criminal investigation,

:53:25. > :53:27.and that's very important. We would establish an independent

:53:28. > :53:30.board of directors on the TMO During this stand-off

:53:31. > :53:36.about the structure of the TMO, many survivors of the Grenfell fire

:53:37. > :53:40.are still waiting to be rehoused. Around 80 people were killed,

:53:41. > :53:44.and 203 households were left So far, 14 of those households have

:53:45. > :53:49.been permanently rehoused, I'd hope that trust will be seen

:53:50. > :53:56.in the context of the 235-million that's being spent at the moment

:53:57. > :53:59.in order to provide housing We've now secured 193 homes,

:54:00. > :54:05.and we have a promise to secure 300 by Christmas to give people

:54:06. > :54:10.a lot of choice. The decision about the future

:54:11. > :54:13.of the TMO has been adjourned for at least 21 days,

:54:14. > :54:21.so there's still uncertainty for residents of the borough over

:54:22. > :54:24.how their homes will be managed, and some way to go

:54:25. > :54:26.before survivors get But, for now, they are claiming

:54:27. > :54:30.a small victory in that battle. Paul, do you understand the fears

:54:31. > :54:32.that people there have that the tenant management

:54:33. > :54:35.organisation and the people on it, who were there at the time

:54:36. > :54:38.of the fire, might escape justice? I can understand why there's

:54:39. > :54:40.a disjoint and mistrust. My understanding,

:54:41. > :54:46.having looked at it - and I'm not a legal expert,

:54:47. > :54:49.I wasn't at the meeting, clearly - is that they were going to keep

:54:50. > :54:52.the TMO there so that they can actually get some answers and get

:54:53. > :54:55.them to meet justice as well, because it's really important that

:54:56. > :54:57.anybody who's found to be, whether criminally or corporately,

:54:58. > :54:59.whatever, done anything wrong, Do you have faith now

:55:00. > :55:04.in the process, or do you agree with your Labour colleagues

:55:05. > :55:07.like Diane Abbott, who said that commissioners need to be sent

:55:08. > :55:12.in to run the council? I think what's reasonable is to make

:55:13. > :55:17.sure that there's some justice and there's transparency

:55:18. > :55:19.and accountability, and it really The most depressing part

:55:20. > :55:22.of that clip, for me, was a resident saying,

:55:23. > :55:25."This is the first time in 20 years that we've had

:55:26. > :55:28.a victory with the TMO." What kind of establishment

:55:29. > :55:30.is it where you feel I don't think Grenfell

:55:31. > :55:35.is an isolated incident, I think this is common for social

:55:36. > :55:39.tenants all across the country, and my worry is that this inquiry

:55:40. > :55:43.will happen and the Government will ignore the overall effects

:55:44. > :55:45.of how building regulation and social housing regulation

:55:46. > :55:47.actually isn't being enforced. Is that fair, as far

:55:48. > :55:49.as you're concerned? Will the Government

:55:50. > :55:51.actually take on board Yes, absolutely...

:55:52. > :55:56.Really, you can guarantee that? Well, I can't guarantee it

:55:57. > :55:59.because I'm not in the Government, but I've looked at Sajid Javid,

:56:00. > :56:02.I've looked at Alok Sharma, the Housing Minister,

:56:03. > :56:05.and what they've said as well, and they've been visibly moved

:56:06. > :56:08.by Grenfell and the results They've also started having a green

:56:09. > :56:15.paper on social housing as a whole, to see what lessons we can learn

:56:16. > :56:18.about the future of social housing. Do you accept that money, hard cash,

:56:19. > :56:21.needs to go behind some You're right, those ministers have

:56:22. > :56:25.been very moved and they've spoken very emotionally about what has

:56:26. > :56:28.happened, but, in the end, the promise that was made

:56:29. > :56:33.by Theresa May in her conference speech was still a very small amount

:56:34. > :56:35.of money when you think of the number of socially rented

:56:36. > :56:37.homes that are needed. Well, yes, and in terms

:56:38. > :56:41.of restoring and rejuvenating... In terms of fire safety,

:56:42. > :56:44.these sorts of things, I've done a walkabout of one

:56:45. > :56:46.of the two tower blocks so far in my area that's

:56:47. > :56:49.council-owned and clad, The Minister has talked

:56:50. > :56:55.about financial flexibilities, because that will depend on each

:56:56. > :56:58.individual local authority, whether it's loans, whether it's

:56:59. > :57:01.changing the revenue account, different solutions

:57:02. > :57:02.for different areas. Right, but the solutions

:57:03. > :57:05.are what people are interested in. But where the leadership

:57:06. > :57:07.from City Hall? Where's their voice,

:57:08. > :57:09.where's Sadiq Khan? Sadiq Khan has been very vocal

:57:10. > :57:14.on this, but my point is it's not enough for ministers just to be

:57:15. > :57:16.deeply moved - we need I want to see more of

:57:17. > :57:19.the families rehoused. It's been four months

:57:20. > :57:23.since the tragedy happened, 50 families are living in hostels

:57:24. > :57:26.at the moment. What about the extra

:57:27. > :57:31.money for fire safety? Every person I speak

:57:32. > :57:33.to in my constituency is terrified, We need extra money from Government

:57:34. > :57:38.to reinforce that fire safety But do you have to look

:57:39. > :57:46.at the regulations first and actually find out what really

:57:47. > :57:48.did cause and exacerbate the fire here at Grenfell,

:57:49. > :57:51.before money is thrown at solutions that actually don't

:57:52. > :57:53.solve the problem? Obviously things need to be looked

:57:54. > :57:56.at and we need to get to the bottom of the problem,

:57:57. > :57:59.but there does seem to be a reluctance on the part

:58:00. > :58:01.of Government to commit to money, It's the local authority

:58:02. > :58:06.as the owners of the buildings that have got to be the first people

:58:07. > :58:09.there to look at it. The two buildings I talked

:58:10. > :58:11.about in Sutton... Where will they find

:58:12. > :58:13.the money, local councils? Well, they can come up

:58:14. > :58:15.with the solutions and once we've got the solutions,

:58:16. > :58:18.we know the finances and what the cost is,

:58:19. > :58:21.then we can start looking Is it acceptable that only 14

:58:22. > :58:25.households have been moved I know what they've done,

:58:26. > :58:30.everybody's had the offer of a personal housing officer

:58:31. > :58:32.to talk through their requirements, whether they want to go into a tower

:58:33. > :58:35.block, whether they want to go The vast, vast majority have had

:58:36. > :58:40.that discussion and actually, what they're doing, some

:58:41. > :58:42.of the people haven't moved into a new home because they're

:58:43. > :58:44.literally talking about decorations and the kind of place that

:58:45. > :58:46.they're moving into. You want to get the right sort

:58:47. > :58:49.of properties for the right families, there is a housing crisis

:58:50. > :58:52.of course in London, There is a housing crisis in London

:58:53. > :58:56.but we need to prioritise people who've gone through such a traumatic

:58:57. > :58:59.tragedy in Grenfell Tower and, having been a local councillor,

:59:00. > :59:01.70% of overall council funding is dependent on Government

:59:02. > :59:04.hand-outs, so unless the Government stops cutting council budgets year

:59:05. > :59:07.after year, the council's not going to have enough

:59:08. > :59:09.money to do anything. Is one of the problems that actually

:59:10. > :59:12.there isn't one single Of course there are lots

:59:13. > :59:15.of different people and bodies involved -

:59:16. > :59:17.does there need to be I don't think necessarily a Grenfell

:59:18. > :59:21.tsar, but, as I say, I think the housing minister has

:59:22. > :59:25.taken a really hands-on approach to this, he's

:59:26. > :59:28.been down there many, many times, spoken to a lot

:59:29. > :59:30.of residents, a lot of residents have come up to Whitehall,

:59:31. > :59:32.Downing Street, Parliament, etc, so there's a lot

:59:33. > :59:35.of conversations going on, but the solutions for those people,

:59:36. > :59:38.in terms of the housing, it's a long-term solution,

:59:39. > :59:41.you don't want to be moving Let's find a long-term solution,

:59:42. > :59:44.which is difficult in London for the housing shortage that

:59:45. > :59:46.you've talked about. I don't think we need a tsar,

:59:47. > :59:49.I think we need to listen to the residents, because it sounds

:59:50. > :59:52.like their voices haven't been heard for years and years,

:59:53. > :59:55.either by the TMO or the council, and we need to start

:59:56. > :59:57.listening to them. The victims have

:59:58. > :59:58.lost their families. The Prime Minister recently spoke

:59:59. > :00:05.about the difficulty young people had in getting onto the housing

:00:06. > :00:07.ladder - one of many ways in which young people

:00:08. > :00:10.claim they are worse off Now it's understood the Chancellor

:00:11. > :00:13.is considering a cut in stamp duty for first-time buyers,

:00:14. > :00:16.which would be worth around ?10,000 for the average Londoner buying

:00:17. > :00:20.a home for the first time. Tanjil Rashid sat down with former

:00:21. > :00:24.minister David Willetts, who chaired the commission

:00:25. > :00:26.on intergenerational inequality, and began by asking him whether cuts

:00:27. > :00:30.to stamp duty would help win back I think a stamp duty cut

:00:31. > :00:36.for first-time buyers would be a great idea,

:00:37. > :00:39.but also, fundamentally on housing, we've just got

:00:40. > :00:44.to get more houses built. Isn't cutting stamp duty

:00:45. > :00:49.missing the point somewhat, given that the problem in London

:00:50. > :00:53.is so often with renters? Well, the evidence is that young

:00:54. > :00:56.people do still aspire to own their own home,

:00:57. > :00:59.so we've got to help them It's not as if young people want

:01:00. > :01:04.a Marxist revolution, they just Meanwhile, of course,

:01:05. > :01:07.you're quite right, they are renting and there's more we should do

:01:08. > :01:10.to help them, both with the quality of the tenancies they've

:01:11. > :01:13.got and with the cost. How acute are these problems

:01:14. > :01:15.in the capital in particular? If you just look at pay,

:01:16. > :01:21.pay rates for young people However, housing costs

:01:22. > :01:24.are very high indeed, and once you allow for the fact that

:01:25. > :01:27.they're having to put so much of their income

:01:28. > :01:29.aside to pay for rent, then living standards

:01:30. > :01:33.in London are no higher than, and in some measures even lower

:01:34. > :01:35.than, the rest of the country. As a former Universities Minister,

:01:36. > :01:39.you had some involvement with the issue of tuition fees,

:01:40. > :01:42.which is one of the core complaints Do you have any regrets

:01:43. > :01:49.about tuition fees? I think the fundamentals

:01:50. > :01:52.of housing and wages are more important than the exact way

:01:53. > :01:55.in which you finance When you look at how we do it,

:01:56. > :02:01.this so-called debt is not like a mortgage debt

:02:02. > :02:04.or an overdraft, it's basically saying you pay 9% of your earnings

:02:05. > :02:07.above a very high threshold, After the disappointing

:02:08. > :02:15.results for the Tories in the last election in London,

:02:16. > :02:19.there's been a lot of speculation about how the Tories can win

:02:20. > :02:21.back support in London, Some are saying that these policies

:02:22. > :02:26.are sort of Corbyn-lite policies - I always think, looking back

:02:27. > :02:30.to my time in politics, you should do what you think

:02:31. > :02:33.is necessary to tackle Whether it's the same

:02:34. > :02:39.as a proposition from a different political party, just do

:02:40. > :02:41.what you think is right, and I think there's now a very

:02:42. > :02:44.strong appetite in Government to recognise that it's right

:02:45. > :02:48.that we do whatever is necessary to offer a fair deal

:02:49. > :02:50.to young people. Joining us is Abi Wilkinson,

:02:51. > :02:52.freelance journalist, who writes Abi, do you think the

:02:53. > :03:03.Conservatives are doing enough What it feels like to me is young

:03:04. > :03:07.people turned out at a higher rate than they normally do in the last

:03:08. > :03:10.election and now they are scrabbling around, trying to pitch watered-down

:03:11. > :03:13.versions of Labour policies in a desperate attempt

:03:14. > :03:16.to win a bit of this new, I think David Willets was absolutely

:03:17. > :03:27.right that the way you tackle this Now, there is a balance

:03:28. > :03:32.because you've only got a certain pot of money to work this out,

:03:33. > :03:34.but I think reducing stamp duty for young people,

:03:35. > :03:39.certainly in London, is going to be a really important

:03:40. > :03:41.factor, but only one factor in solving housing,

:03:42. > :03:44.which is, at the end of the day, What do you think about the stamp

:03:45. > :03:48.duty issue particularly? If we believe that young

:03:49. > :03:50.people want to buy homes, want to get onto the property

:03:51. > :03:53.ladder, will that be an incentive? I've been reading up on it and,

:03:54. > :03:56.as I understand it, what might happen is it just simply pushes

:03:57. > :03:59.the prices up, because unless you increase supply,

:04:00. > :04:01.if people get helped out with the money there then sellers

:04:02. > :04:05.can just charge more. I think there's a lot they could be

:04:06. > :04:08.doing to increase supply. Is Help To Buy really the answer,

:04:09. > :04:12.when actually it is the private rented sector where people need

:04:13. > :04:14.so much more help? To be frank, Help To Buy,

:04:15. > :04:17.stamp duty cuts and these kind It is, as Abi said,

:04:18. > :04:22.increasing supply. In terms of rent, I'm actually

:04:23. > :04:25.leading a debate on Monday talking about taking rent into account

:04:26. > :04:29.when you're actually applying for a mortgage,

:04:30. > :04:31.because rent tends to be more From my perspective,

:04:32. > :04:38.what I want is a secure tenancy, so my landlord can't,

:04:39. > :04:41.say, sign for a year then hike the rent up to a level higher

:04:42. > :04:45.than I can afford so I have A lot of European countries have

:04:46. > :04:48.much more secure tenancies, And you think that would

:04:49. > :04:52.make a big difference? Do you agree with David Willets,

:04:53. > :04:55.though, that young people don't want Yeah, I think that's true,

:04:56. > :04:58.I don't think young people are all voting Labour

:04:59. > :05:00.because they're all radicals. Young people want a decent life,

:05:01. > :05:03.ultimately, and they think That doesn't mean, yeah,

:05:04. > :05:09.of course I agree that we're not The Labour Party has made an offer

:05:10. > :05:16.and an overture to young people, and more of them did vote

:05:17. > :05:19.for your party, but was it cynically-based with promises

:05:20. > :05:21.of scrapping tuition fees? Are these things

:05:22. > :05:25.actually affordable? Our manifesto was costed,

:05:26. > :05:27.unlike other manifestos, And it was disputed, of course,

:05:28. > :05:31.by the Institute for Fiscal Studies. For us, the whole point was not

:05:32. > :05:35.so much about a cheap gimmick... This gimmick about stamp duty,

:05:36. > :05:44.I think, is such a giveaway A senior source close

:05:45. > :05:51.to the Government actually said in the Financial Times,

:05:52. > :05:54.the Chancellor knows that this is the last time he can

:05:55. > :05:57.appeal to young people, so he's doing this in

:05:58. > :05:59.a desperate attempt. In our election we talked

:06:00. > :06:01.about lots of things, Building more houses,

:06:02. > :06:04.bringing back educational maintenance allowance -

:06:05. > :06:06.that's really important to young That's the kind of things

:06:07. > :06:11.they should be looking at before How much are you playing catch-up

:06:12. > :06:18.here with the Labour Party? Because it is interesting that

:06:19. > :06:21.all these policies from the Tory party and the mood music has changed

:06:22. > :06:23.since the election? Just because you have a senior

:06:24. > :06:26.source doesn't mean it's true, these quotes in the Financial Times,

:06:27. > :06:28.these kinds of things. If you're going to tackle

:06:29. > :06:30.intergenerational fairness, it's not actually about an electoral

:06:31. > :06:33.cycle, as we've heard, Whether you're looking at social

:06:34. > :06:36.care and health care at the elderly stage,

:06:37. > :06:39.or you're looking at student fees, you're looking at housing

:06:40. > :06:42.at a young people's aspect, all of these things need to be

:06:43. > :06:47.tackled over long-term solutions. Right, let's look at tuition fees,

:06:48. > :06:51.how big an issue is that? I think there's no reason that

:06:52. > :06:55.tuition fees shouldn't be paid out of general taxation,

:06:56. > :06:59.because a lot of people went to university before tuition fees

:07:00. > :07:02.were brought in and are earning a lot now and they can definitely

:07:03. > :07:04.afford to help contribute. In terms of debt, it's not the debt

:07:05. > :07:07.that burdens me most, you do only pay it back over

:07:08. > :07:10.a certain threshold. Things like credit card debt that

:07:11. > :07:12.young people are taking on increasingly frequently I think

:07:13. > :07:15.is a much more pressing issue. And what about lowering taxes

:07:16. > :07:18.for people in their 20s and 30s? There's nothing wrong

:07:19. > :07:22.with "from each according The problem is, young

:07:23. > :07:26.people are earning less, Taxes should be based

:07:27. > :07:29.on your ability to pay. I think that seems very much

:07:30. > :07:32.like a gimmick to me. In the end, do you need to hurt some

:07:33. > :07:36.of your older voters or pensioners in terms

:07:37. > :07:38.of looking at the triple-lock, which was discussed

:07:39. > :07:41.in the manifesto, means-testing universal benefits, in order to use

:07:42. > :07:44.some of that money to help younger It's not about hurting people

:07:45. > :07:50.but I think we do need to make sure that everybody's paying a fair

:07:51. > :07:52.amount of tax... And have you got it

:07:53. > :07:54.wrong up until now? Well I think these are the things

:07:55. > :07:57.we were testing in the manifesto. I think we actually should have

:07:58. > :08:00.spent more time debating it and having a more rounded debate

:08:01. > :08:02.for the long-term solutions that But ultimately we can't

:08:03. > :08:07.keep on going as we are, spending more money than we're

:08:08. > :08:09.actually earning as a country and having, in some areas,

:08:10. > :08:11.in unfair proportions. Abi Wilkinson thank you very much

:08:12. > :08:15.for coming onto the programme today. That's all we have time for,

:08:16. > :08:18.my thanks to Paul and Tulip. And our political panel

:08:19. > :08:44.Tom Newton Dunn, Helen Lewis Wheel pick up on some of the things

:08:45. > :08:46.we were talking about earlier. Principally Brexit. Nigel Evans said

:08:47. > :08:52.the British government would not agree a divorce bill until the issue

:08:53. > :08:59.of the trade bill. Liam Fox said a similar thing. Are we at a

:09:00. > :09:03.stalemate? I don't think so. I think it actually means that we are in a

:09:04. > :09:08.pretty decent shape to then move on in December at the summit to the

:09:09. > :09:14.crucial next stage on trade talks. Theresa May also said what Liam Fox

:09:15. > :09:17.said this morning, at a press conference in Brussels. She said

:09:18. > :09:20.there will be no figure until we see everything else on the table. That

:09:21. > :09:28.would be the last thing we do at the back end of 2018. The likes of the

:09:29. > :09:32.Dutch prime minister said we don't need you to put a figure on the

:09:33. > :09:36.table to move onto the next stage. We need to spell out what to do

:09:37. > :09:43.things you do want to pay for. Those against that approach say you can

:09:44. > :09:47.tie it up very quickly and come to a figure. I think the government will

:09:48. > :09:51.hold back on some stuff. The full agreement on pensions. You can see

:09:52. > :09:59.an area where the British government and the EU 27 can coalesce around.

:10:00. > :10:04.There has been more progress than the EU and the talks have been given

:10:05. > :10:07.credit for this week? Yes, you're the remarkable prospect of European

:10:08. > :10:13.leaders tried to go out of their way to emphasise they were hoping

:10:14. > :10:18.Theresa May. That is as much about what Michel Barnier is doing. He

:10:19. > :10:26.should be seen by the UK as the good guy. He is the note -- EU

:10:27. > :10:29.negotiator. Yes. He has to talk to the 27 and try to persuade Angela

:10:30. > :10:34.Merkel and Emmanuel Macron to give him room for a manoeuvre. He was

:10:35. > :10:42.pleased by pluck -- Florence. I think what happened on Friday was

:10:43. > :10:45.the result of him explaining to Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron

:10:46. > :10:49.that some gestures were needed to show that there is movement.

:10:50. > :10:53.Otherwise, if there is an agreement to move forward in December, really

:10:54. > :10:58.from the moment that Christmas is out of the way, Britain then

:10:59. > :11:02.probably goes into full-blown, no Deal preparation. It wasn't just

:11:03. > :11:09.Theresa May who was in Brussels. Jeremy Corbyn was there as well. Did

:11:10. > :11:12.that have any effect? Labour are trying to represent themselves as an

:11:13. > :11:18.alternative, that they are grown-ups underwear. If they are seen to be

:11:19. > :11:22.deliberately trying to wreck this process, that doesn't make them look

:11:23. > :11:25.very grown-up. They will get a huge slapping in the press. They don't

:11:26. > :11:28.have a great vested interest in doing things that will later be seen

:11:29. > :11:31.to be unpopular. For the moment they are very happy with their position

:11:32. > :11:36.because they feel they can be all things to all men. But as those

:11:37. > :11:41.individual bits of the line items come up, they will be forced to make

:11:42. > :11:45.unpopular decisions. Theresa May appears to be almost using the

:11:46. > :11:50.problems she has with the Cabinet, the divisions within the UK

:11:51. > :11:55.government, lack of authority as Prime Minister, as a strength as she

:11:56. > :11:58.goes into the EU? That was the most remarkable thing about the summit

:11:59. > :12:06.for me. She made an absolute virtue of her extraordinary weakness at

:12:07. > :12:10.home. A cabinet in full disagreement and a House of Commons that doesn't

:12:11. > :12:14.have a majority to vote for any kind of Brexit. Instead of Queen

:12:15. > :12:19.Boadicea, she who handbags anybody who gets in the way, she went on to

:12:20. > :12:23.say, I'm weak, I'm humble, I desperately need your help, you have

:12:24. > :12:27.to give me something I can sell to the British people with the brackets

:12:28. > :12:31.behind it, the subtext, if you don't, you will get Boris Johnson.

:12:32. > :12:37.Amazingly, they fell for this. Hook line and sinker. That is true but it

:12:38. > :12:41.is worth emphasising there is weakness on the other side. Brexit

:12:42. > :12:44.is not the only thing the European Union has on its plate. It has the

:12:45. > :12:51.situation in Catalonia. The election last night of a Eurosceptic populist

:12:52. > :12:55.in the Czech Republic. What is happening in Austria. Germany

:12:56. > :12:59.doesn't have a government. I think it's a mistake to see it as the 27

:13:00. > :13:04.with no problems at all and Britain having absolutely no cards to play.

:13:05. > :13:08.The other thing that worries the Germans is the future of the single

:13:09. > :13:13.currency, of which London is the major supplier of capital and

:13:14. > :13:19.services, and really powers the eurozone. Quite a lot of practical

:13:20. > :13:21.politics is coming into play. We have to leave it there.

:13:22. > :13:24.Jo Coburn will be back with the Daily Politics -

:13:25. > :13:26.that's on BBC Two at midday tomorrow.

:13:27. > :13:30.Join me again next Sunday at 11 here on BBC One.