05/11/2017

0:00:40 > 0:00:42Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

0:00:42 > 0:00:44I'm Sarah Smith.

0:00:44 > 0:00:47And this is your guide to everything that's happening in the world

0:00:47 > 0:00:48of politics this Sunday morning.

0:00:48 > 0:00:50On today's show:

0:00:50 > 0:00:53Theresa May's right-hand man Damian Green has denied claims that

0:00:53 > 0:01:00police found pornography on a computer in his office in 2008.

0:01:00 > 0:01:03He says the allegations by a former police chief are "political smears."

0:01:03 > 0:01:05With claims of sexual harassment at Westminster growing by the day,

0:01:05 > 0:01:08can either Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn do anything to get

0:01:08 > 0:01:10to grips with a scandal threatening to engulf

0:01:10 > 0:01:14the entire political class?

0:01:14 > 0:01:20We'll ask a minister and senior member of the Shadow Cabinet.

0:01:20 > 0:01:24And some on the left of politics have been gathering to mark 100

0:01:24 > 0:01:26years since the Russian Revolution, but was it an event that should be

0:01:26 > 0:01:28mourned, rather than celebrated?

0:01:28 > 0:01:30George Galloway and Peter Hitchens will join me live.

0:01:30 > 0:01:32In London, why the mental health consequences of the Grenfell Tower

0:01:32 > 0:01:39fire could prove the greatest challenge yet.

0:01:47 > 0:01:49So there's plenty of explosive political news

0:01:49 > 0:01:51to get you in the mood for bonfire night -

0:01:51 > 0:01:54and with me as usual, three journalists who know quite

0:01:54 > 0:01:56a bit about parliamentary plots - if rather less about

0:01:56 > 0:01:57gunpowder and treason.

0:01:57 > 0:01:59It's Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

0:01:59 > 0:02:03So what are the big political stories making the news this Sunday?

0:02:03 > 0:02:10Well, the papers are brimming with further allegations against MPs

0:02:10 > 0:02:13in the sexual harassment scandal, which according to one newspaper has

0:02:13 > 0:02:15left Westminster frozen in fear.

0:02:15 > 0:02:17First Secretary of State Damian Green, already under

0:02:17 > 0:02:19investigation over allegations - which he strongly denies -

0:02:19 > 0:02:22of propositioning a female activist, is the subject of new claims that

0:02:22 > 0:02:24police discovered pornography on a computer in his Westminster

0:02:24 > 0:02:26office in 2008.

0:02:26 > 0:02:28Mr Green denies the allegation, made by former senior

0:02:28 > 0:02:30police officer Bob Quick, saying it is "completely untrue,"

0:02:30 > 0:02:38and adding that he is the victim of disreputable "political smears."

0:02:38 > 0:02:40Michael Fallon, who resigned as Defence Secretary this week

0:02:40 > 0:02:43over his past behaviour, is also subject to fresh claims

0:02:43 > 0:02:48he lunged at a female journalist in 2003 after a lunch.

0:02:48 > 0:02:50Labour is facing questions over its handling of sexual

0:02:50 > 0:02:57misconduct allegations.

0:02:57 > 0:03:00This morning Shadow Cabinet minister Dawn Butler refused to be drawn

0:03:00 > 0:03:03on whether Jeremy Corbyn knew about alleged misconduct by MP

0:03:03 > 0:03:10Kelvin Hopkins when he was promoted to the Shadow Cabinet.

0:03:10 > 0:03:13And there is a reminder that normal political life goes on,

0:03:13 > 0:03:16with reports that the Cabinet has agreed to put housing at the heart

0:03:16 > 0:03:17of Philip Hammond's upcoming Budget.

0:03:17 > 0:03:20Well, let's hear from Home Secretary Amber Rudd now -

0:03:20 > 0:03:23she was on the Andrew Marr Show earlier talking about the claims

0:03:23 > 0:03:25against her Cabinet colleague Damian Green.

0:03:25 > 0:03:31Absolutely not. I think it is something that will take place in

0:03:31 > 0:03:36terms of clearing out Westminster of that sort of behaviour, and I think

0:03:36 > 0:03:38that Westminster afterwards, including the Government, will be

0:03:38 > 0:03:47better for it. When we are confident that men and women can work any

0:03:47 > 0:03:50respectful environment and people on the receiving end of abuse of power

0:03:50 > 0:03:56can come forward. That will be a positive thing.

0:03:56 > 0:04:00Let's see what our panel make of this fairly explosive week. Good

0:04:00 > 0:04:07morning to all of you. Starting with you, Steve. Not a party political

0:04:07 > 0:04:10issue but the Tories are in Government. How much harder for them

0:04:10 > 0:04:15is it an Labour?Always harder when you are in Government because it

0:04:15 > 0:04:19makes governing almost impossible. And the wider context is a Prime

0:04:19 > 0:04:22Minister who lost her overall majority a few months ago and

0:04:22 > 0:04:25actually that is the context of everything. When you are having to

0:04:25 > 0:04:28deal with the scandal of such unpredictability, where the

0:04:28 > 0:04:39terms are so imprecise, it is a "lunge", a resignation issue, to use

0:04:39 > 0:04:43that term, and nightmare. I don't think it is fatal. Scandals rarely

0:04:43 > 0:04:49bring down governments, but it makes governing for Theresa May a form of

0:04:49 > 0:04:52political health.Isabel Oakeshott, Damian Green has denied all

0:04:52 > 0:04:56allegations made against him, but there are more this morning. He is

0:04:56 > 0:05:01being investigated by the Cabinet Office at the moment. If Theresa May

0:05:01 > 0:05:04were to effectively lose her Deputy Prime Minister, has serious without

0:05:04 > 0:05:09the?I think very serious indeed. I think it is very significant and

0:05:09 > 0:05:13strange he was not defended in the Home Secretary Amber Rudd in that

0:05:13 > 0:05:17clip we saw today, she didn't say I am certain he will survive, and I am

0:05:17 > 0:05:22beginning to feel that Damian may not survive this. We don't know

0:05:22 > 0:05:25whether it is the last of the allegations that may come out in

0:05:25 > 0:05:29relation to him. It seems to me that the allegations were previously of a

0:05:29 > 0:05:35rather minor order, but this seems to have escalated. And I think one

0:05:35 > 0:05:38of the big problems for Theresa May, and there are the many at the

0:05:38 > 0:05:44moment, for months we have been saying that this Government has no

0:05:44 > 0:05:47bandwidth to do anything except Brexit and right now she can't even

0:05:47 > 0:05:51do Brexit. What is the point of it all?It is important to make clear

0:05:51 > 0:05:55not only that Damian Green denies all of these allegations, but the

0:05:55 > 0:06:01computer mentioned was in a shared office so there is no reason it

0:06:01 > 0:06:05would definitely be his # No guarantee it would definitely

0:06:05 > 0:06:17be his. But we have had two MPs on television this morning, Anna

0:06:17 > 0:06:22Soubry, saying he should stand down. There is an awful lot going on here.

0:06:22 > 0:06:28It is not just a pretty awful sexual harassment scandal. There are also

0:06:28 > 0:06:32without a doubt MPs, police officers, going about settling

0:06:32 > 0:06:37scores. For me I have to say for our pretty discredited police officer

0:06:37 > 0:06:41Bob Quick, to make accusations against serving Cabinet minister, to

0:06:41 > 0:06:48suggest he should go for extreme pornography on computers he may or

0:06:48 > 0:06:51may not have known, it may be extremely distasteful but it is

0:06:51 > 0:06:54alarming for democracy to have ex-police officers like this coming

0:06:54 > 0:06:58in and trying to play with democracy. Some politicians are also

0:06:58 > 0:07:01meeting claims, some for the right reasons to get the allegations out

0:07:01 > 0:07:04there and so on but others for their own agendas and all of this puts the

0:07:04 > 0:07:08Prime Minister in an unbelievably hard situation. I agree with Steve

0:07:08 > 0:07:12and Isabel, she desperately needs two show leadership in all this, but

0:07:12 > 0:07:15every way she could turn there are incredible downfalls, people blaming

0:07:15 > 0:07:20her for trying to get to the bottom of all this. It is very people who

0:07:20 > 0:07:24she is relying on for her leadership, the very Tory MPs the

0:07:24 > 0:07:27support she can't lose.It is not just the Tory party and of course

0:07:27 > 0:07:31Jeremy Corbyn will be making a speech later today where this will

0:07:31 > 0:07:34inevitably and there are accusations about how the senior leadership in

0:07:34 > 0:07:40the Labour Party have handled this. What about that situation?Yes, but

0:07:40 > 0:07:42the Government is much harder because you are meant to be doing

0:07:42 > 0:07:4610,000 other things at the same time. This is about a deregulated

0:07:46 > 0:07:50work environment. For all those who say, I hate the way Britain is too

0:07:50 > 0:07:53regulated, this is what happens in a deregulated work environment. The

0:07:53 > 0:08:02House of Commons has no HR or whatever, MPs, advisors, so, MPs

0:08:02 > 0:08:05actually don't have much power but they do have power over who the

0:08:05 > 0:08:09point and how to treat them. I think this is the way forward in terms of

0:08:09 > 0:08:12the practical outcome, but it is across the political spectrum.But

0:08:12 > 0:08:18it is unclear what it will be. Can the party sort this out?I'm not

0:08:18 > 0:08:21sure I entirely agree, Steve, you cannot regulate all human

0:08:21 > 0:08:25interaction and a lot of these stories have been about interactions

0:08:25 > 0:08:30between politicians and journalists alike, who have gone out for lunch,

0:08:30 > 0:08:36chosen to drink, presumably to create an informal atmosphere, and

0:08:36 > 0:08:41at what point is a step towards somebody to say goodbye, a peck on

0:08:41 > 0:08:45the cheek or whatever, a lunge? You can't regulate that sort of thing.

0:08:45 > 0:08:50Throughout the programme will come back to some of these things and how

0:08:50 > 0:08:52they might be regulated.

0:08:52 > 0:08:54Now, the Home Secretary has also today been talking

0:08:54 > 0:08:57about what she calls the "moral duty" of social media companies

0:08:57 > 0:09:00to stop child sexual exploitation, ahead of a meeting with her US

0:09:00 > 0:09:01counterparts this week.

0:09:01 > 0:09:03We're joined now by the Home Office minister Sarah Newton -

0:09:03 > 0:09:05she's in our Truro studio.

0:09:05 > 0:09:08Thanks very much for coming in to speak the first night. I want to

0:09:08 > 0:09:12talk to you about the Government's efforts to tackle child pornography,

0:09:12 > 0:09:15but let's pick up on some of the sexual harassment issues at

0:09:15 > 0:09:18Westminster first. Two of your parliamentary colleagues this

0:09:18 > 0:09:22morning saying they think the first Secretary of State Damian Green

0:09:22 > 0:09:28should step down whilst being investigated. Do you agree?Look, he

0:09:28 > 0:09:34has vigorously denied these accusations, and the Cabinet Office

0:09:34 > 0:09:39is investigating these accusations, so we do have processes for when

0:09:39 > 0:09:42ministers have these accusations made against them so they are

0:09:42 > 0:09:46properly investigated. And that is what is going on at the moment.Is

0:09:46 > 0:09:51that process people can be confident in? He is effectively being

0:09:51 > 0:09:57investigated by Jeremy Heywood, one of his colleagues.This is a tried

0:09:57 > 0:10:02and tested process that has stood the test of time, and it is

0:10:02 > 0:10:05important...Has it? Surely what we are learning is it has not stood the

0:10:05 > 0:10:08test of time and that in fact allegations like this have been

0:10:08 > 0:10:12swept under the carpet and ignored for years and years in Westminster,

0:10:12 > 0:10:17exactly what we are learning right now.I think you are conflating two

0:10:17 > 0:10:20things they are, and what we really do need to do is look at the whole

0:10:20 > 0:10:24range of allegations people have been making, and make sure

0:10:24 > 0:10:28Parliament is a safe place for people to work, a respectful

0:10:28 > 0:10:34environment for people who have been subjected to harassment or bullying

0:10:34 > 0:10:36or inappropriate behaviour, so that they feel confident to come forward

0:10:36 > 0:10:40knowing they will be listened to, that there will be an open and

0:10:40 > 0:10:43transparent and fair to everyone concerned process for getting to the

0:10:43 > 0:10:48bottom of it, and that is exactly what the Prime Minister and the

0:10:48 > 0:10:53Leader of the Cows have set out, Prime Minister's meeting with all

0:10:53 > 0:10:58the leaders of the parties tomorrow to set out a proper process so we

0:10:58 > 0:11:06can modernise the work environment at Westminster -- leader of the

0:11:06 > 0:11:10House have set out.You think Damian Green should remain in the Cabinet

0:11:10 > 0:11:16well being investigated?That will be down to Sir Jeremy Heywood. If he

0:11:16 > 0:11:19thinks the misdemeanours have a basis, that he should stand aside,

0:11:19 > 0:11:25that will be the recommendation. I will not second the inquiry on what

0:11:25 > 0:11:29Sir Jeremy Heywood finds.You were in the Whips' Office yourself for a

0:11:29 > 0:11:33year. And much has been said this week of the whips being in receipt

0:11:33 > 0:11:37of a lot of information about bad behaviour, and instead of reporting

0:11:37 > 0:11:41it to authorities they were using it as ammunition. Was that your

0:11:41 > 0:11:47experience?Absolutely not. I was at the Whips' Office up to 2015 and,

0:11:47 > 0:11:50yes, I heard about the rumours of a black spreadsheet, and I can

0:11:50 > 0:11:54certainly say I never saw such a thing. How I went about my business

0:11:54 > 0:11:59as a whip is really twofold. It is quite a technical job in many ways,

0:11:59 > 0:12:05about of the Government through the House, working with the House

0:12:05 > 0:12:09authorities, the opposition. Also... Did you ever hear rumours of these

0:12:09 > 0:12:17people's bad behaviour?Sorry?Did you ever hear rumours of MPs

0:12:17 > 0:12:20misbehaving, sexual harassment, allegations are that?If anybody had

0:12:20 > 0:12:25brought a complaint to me about the behaviour of one of the MPs who were

0:12:25 > 0:12:29in my flock, I would take that really seriously, but bull-mac, that

0:12:29 > 0:12:33didn't happen.You said nobody brought you a complaint. Did you

0:12:33 > 0:12:39hear rumours? -- but no, that didn't happen.About the members of my

0:12:39 > 0:12:43flock? Absolutely not.Is that the MPs you were specifically in charge

0:12:43 > 0:12:49of?I did not have that experience at all.Let's move on and talk about

0:12:49 > 0:12:53the Home Secretary's trip to Washington this week, where she will

0:12:53 > 0:12:56urge tech companies to go further and faster on online child abuse. We

0:12:56 > 0:13:00have heard a lot from this Government urging these companies to

0:13:00 > 0:13:04do something. One specific ideas of what they could do, do you have a

0:13:04 > 0:13:07clear idea of what you are asking from tech companies?Absolutely

0:13:07 > 0:13:13right. As you know, this horrendous crime of child sexual exploitation

0:13:13 > 0:13:19and grooming is constantly evolving as the opportunities for the

0:13:19 > 0:13:22perpetrators arise. They are now using live streaming, different

0:13:22 > 0:13:27sorts of platforms, which are largely controlled by the big

0:13:27 > 0:13:31companies in America. What we really want them to do is to step up and

0:13:31 > 0:13:36use their huge expertise, used the huge money they have got, to help

0:13:36 > 0:13:41find technological solutions to read their sites and rid the opportunity

0:13:41 > 0:13:44of these paedophiles to be able to groom young people. We need the

0:13:44 > 0:13:51politicians in America to exert pressure, as well as other

0:13:51 > 0:13:54companies, because these are global problems. We are not going to solve

0:13:54 > 0:13:58this problem in the UK alone. We have made a lot of progress, working

0:13:58 > 0:14:02with Facebook and other companies as well, but we really need to keep one

0:14:02 > 0:14:07step ahead of the technology, one step ahead of the perpetrators, who

0:14:07 > 0:14:13are using these opportunities to commit horrendous crimes.

0:14:13 > 0:14:17It was back in 2014 Theresa May for the Internet companies to do more in

0:14:17 > 0:14:20terms of child abuse online and we have not seen significant action,

0:14:20 > 0:14:24and it does not appear these kind of calls from the Government actually

0:14:24 > 0:14:29make difference. Well, at the moment we are seeing

0:14:29 > 0:14:34the police being able to make about 400 arrests per month, about 500

0:14:34 > 0:14:38children being safeguarded. The Government itself is investing a lot

0:14:38 > 0:14:44of money in new technology like the project Arachnid, and making sure

0:14:44 > 0:14:47the police have the specialist resources they need to go

0:14:47 > 0:14:50undercover, and absolutely find these perpetrators and bring them to

0:14:50 > 0:14:53justice, but we do need to constantly have the engagement and

0:14:53 > 0:14:58support of the companies themselves to invest in further technologies to

0:14:58 > 0:15:01prevent this from happening. As you say, we have made progress but we

0:15:01 > 0:15:06need to see yet more.Sarah Newton, thank you very much for speaking to

0:15:06 > 0:15:08us today.

0:15:08 > 0:15:10Michael Fallon's decision to resign this week,

0:15:10 > 0:15:15saying his past conduct with women fell short of the standard expected

0:15:15 > 0:15:17of the Armed Forces, led to something of a minor reshuffle.

0:15:17 > 0:15:19And the Prime Minister took Westminster by surprise

0:15:19 > 0:15:22when she announced his replacement, former Chief Whip and relative

0:15:22 > 0:15:24newcomer to the ministerial ranks, Gavin Williamson.

0:15:24 > 0:15:28Here he is speaking on the day of his appointment.

0:15:28 > 0:15:30It's an immense privilege to have been appointed Secretary

0:15:30 > 0:15:33of State for Defence, and what we need to be doing

0:15:33 > 0:15:35is continuing to focus on countering Daesh,

0:15:35 > 0:15:38making sure that our national security is at the forefront

0:15:38 > 0:15:40of everything that we do, and we have some of the world's

0:15:40 > 0:15:43greatest armed services, and it's such a privilege to be able

0:15:43 > 0:15:49to work with them.

0:15:49 > 0:15:52Gavin Williamson, who you saw there, arrives at the Ministry of Defence

0:15:52 > 0:15:54at a challenging time for UK defence.

0:15:54 > 0:15:56The Government has promised an above-inflation increase

0:15:56 > 0:15:58in spending every year but the Ministry of Defence

0:15:58 > 0:16:00is already committed to finding £20 billion of savings

0:16:00 > 0:16:01over the next ten years.

0:16:01 > 0:16:03The Cabinet Office is currently conducting a security review

0:16:03 > 0:16:06which will look at military capabilities and funding up to 2022,

0:16:06 > 0:16:08while there are continuing reports of shortages

0:16:08 > 0:16:13of manpower and equipment.

0:16:13 > 0:16:15And if Labour were to win power, questions persist over

0:16:15 > 0:16:17what a Jeremy Corbyn premiership would mean for defence budget

0:16:17 > 0:16:19and the traditional cornerstones of UK defence policy

0:16:19 > 0:16:20like Trident and Nato.

0:16:20 > 0:16:22Well we're joined now by the Shadow Defence

0:16:22 > 0:16:26secretary, Nia Griffith.

0:16:26 > 0:16:28Well we're joined now by the Shadow Defence

0:16:28 > 0:16:33secretary, Nia Griffith.

0:16:33 > 0:16:38Let's talk about defence spending first. Would Labour commit to the

0:16:38 > 0:16:41same thing this Government has which is an above inflation increase in

0:16:41 > 0:16:45spending every year?We've been absolutely clear about that. First

0:16:45 > 0:16:51and foremost we'd meet our commitment of spending at least 2%

0:16:51 > 0:16:57of GDP on defence as is our Nato commitment and we would match the

0:16:57 > 0:17:00Government's year-on-year 0.5% increase above inflation. This is

0:17:00 > 0:17:04really important. Labour's always had a good strong track record of

0:17:04 > 0:17:07spending on defence.Jeremy Corbyn seems to have a different view.

0:17:07 > 0:17:12Speaking at a protest in 2010 he said Labour wanted to fight all the

0:17:12 > 0:17:16cuts except those in the Armed Forces where we want to see a few

0:17:16 > 0:17:21more cuts taking place. He doesn't seem committed to defence spending?

0:17:21 > 0:17:25In the manifesto for this year's election, 2017, he and John

0:17:25 > 0:17:29McDonnell have been absolutely clear we support the exact words I've been

0:17:29 > 0:17:35using now, at least 2% of the spend of GDP spent on defence.Jeremy

0:17:35 > 0:17:39Corbyn's changed his mind on that? He's been very clear about that and

0:17:39 > 0:17:45it was in our manifesto this year. You criticised the Government on

0:17:45 > 0:17:50whether they meet their 2% commitment on defence. You saying

0:17:50 > 0:17:52they were fiddling the figures because they were including

0:17:52 > 0:17:58pensions. You would strip that out and snake sure there's 2% spending

0:17:58 > 0:18:01on defence which doesn't include pensions?Technically, the

0:18:01 > 0:18:03Government would argue you are allowed to include pensions by the

0:18:03 > 0:18:09Nato rules. But we've been very clear, really, when you're talking

0:18:09 > 0:18:13about defence spending it should mean defence. When you look at the

0:18:13 > 0:18:19last year of the Labour Government we spent 2.5% GDP on defence. We are

0:18:19 > 0:18:24very much committed to looking at what we need in our defence budget

0:18:24 > 0:18:28and looking to the problems they have now where they can't meet the

0:18:28 > 0:18:33commitments they've made.You would sprip pensions out of those figures.

0:18:33 > 0:18:38In order to live up to these commitments you have to find an

0:18:38 > 0:18:42extra billion for the defence budgets because we're not

0:18:42 > 0:18:46calculating pensions anymore?John McDonnell is well aware of what they

0:18:46 > 0:18:50are doing. Putting in the conflict resolution money which Gordon Brown

0:18:50 > 0:18:55kept separate. He is well aware of the figures and the difficulties. We

0:18:55 > 0:18:59are certainly very committed to a defence budget that really does make

0:18:59 > 0:19:04a difference.I'm not clear whether you're telling me it will be 2% 69

0:19:04 > 0:19:10spending, excluding pensions?We want it to be 2% of GDP as in the

0:19:10 > 0:19:14way Labour always calculate it had up until 2010, not including

0:19:14 > 0:19:19pensions.A significant increase in military spending?We are talking

0:19:19 > 0:19:23about making sure the spending we need is there because, at the

0:19:23 > 0:19:27current situation, we have with the current Government, they are

0:19:27 > 0:19:32overstretched. Even the very caution National Audit Office says they are

0:19:32 > 0:19:37at immense risk of not being able to meet the expenditure commitment the

0:19:37 > 0:19:42they have made. Others talk about a black hole. You mentioned it that

0:19:42 > 0:19:49£20 billion. There is a real issue we have to address.To you know what

0:19:49 > 0:19:54it will cost, how muchedingsal funds will have to be found?We have to

0:19:54 > 0:19:59rook at what are the needs at the time as well as the facts we want to

0:19:59 > 0:20:03make that 2% commitment not including things which have just

0:20:03 > 0:20:07been brushed in now by the Conservative Government.Let's move

0:20:07 > 0:20:13on to a different aspect of defence. There is a treaty banning nuclear

0:20:13 > 0:20:17weapons opened at the UN for signatories. 122 countries have

0:20:17 > 0:20:22already signed it. Would an incoming Labour Government sign that treaty?

0:20:22 > 0:20:25The important point here is there was an Is inned opportunity for

0:20:25 > 0:20:30there to be observers from the UK. There should have been at that

0:20:30 > 0:20:36treaty talks.That doesn't change the calculation whether or not an

0:20:36 > 0:20:42incoming Labour Government would sign that treaty?We are committed

0:20:42 > 0:20:47to a strong multi-lateral disarming programme. That's what we've seen

0:20:47 > 0:20:51missing.This is a multilateral approach to try to get rid of

0:20:51 > 0:20:55nuclear weapons. What you say you want. Would a Labour Government sign

0:20:55 > 0:21:00that treaty?You we have to look at how you go about things. We need toe

0:21:00 > 0:21:03somebody clear we want to de-escalate tensions across the

0:21:03 > 0:21:08world. Work with other nuclear partners to help stop the

0:21:08 > 0:21:12proliferation of nuclear weapons. We want to work with those countries

0:21:12 > 0:21:18who feel very strongly about the treaty so we can work together. We

0:21:18 > 0:21:24have to do that in a multilateral framework.This is a multi-lateral

0:21:24 > 0:21:28disarmament framework. Under the auspice Is of the UN disto see how

0:21:28 > 0:21:32else it could be organised. This is a great opportunity for you, who

0:21:32 > 0:21:37have been a lifelong campaigner for disarmament.ment Labour Government

0:21:37 > 0:21:42will be the first nuclear power to do so, sign it and lead the way.We

0:21:42 > 0:21:47need to use our position to be responsible and call for responsible

0:21:47 > 0:21:50multi-lateral disarmamentment there was progress made on this in the

0:21:50 > 0:21:53eighties and nineties with considerable amount of are heads put

0:21:53 > 0:21:57to one side and destroyed. We need to get back on the front foot there.

0:21:57 > 0:22:00I don't see any presence by the UK Government at the moment on that

0:22:00 > 0:22:05aagain da. It is not helpful for the nukes leer nations to be separated

0:22:05 > 0:22:11from the non-nuclear nation in the these debates.That's why I don't

0:22:11 > 0:22:15understand why you're not taking the opportunity to say a Labour

0:22:15 > 0:22:19Government would Take The Stand.We should wok together and we should

0:22:19 > 0:22:24use our position as a nuclear power to work for a multilateral

0:22:24 > 0:22:28disarmament programme.You were very clear in your manifesto that the

0:22:28 > 0:22:32Labour Party would keep Trident for the meantime.Abs will yously.We

0:22:32 > 0:22:36know throughout his life, Jeremy Corbyn's long wanted to get rid of

0:22:36 > 0:22:42it. He signed up to the manifesto saying Trident would stay. Has he

0:22:42 > 0:22:47changed his minds?The important thing is that was a manifesto

0:22:47 > 0:22:51Jeremy, John McDonnell's agreed to. We stood on it in 2017 because that

0:22:51 > 0:22:56is the Labour Party position. Absolutely. I'm asking if the Labour

0:22:56 > 0:22:59Leader really believes in that position?He believes in democracy

0:22:59 > 0:23:02in the party. That is the Labour Party position. I don't see that

0:23:02 > 0:23:06position changing at all. He has said very clearly that he accepts

0:23:06 > 0:23:10that is our Labour Party position. And that is the manifesto we've

0:23:10 > 0:23:15stood on and will continue to stand on.I'll need to ask questions about

0:23:15 > 0:23:20sexual harassment in Westminster. It is as much as inissue for the Labour

0:23:20 > 0:23:24Party as the Conservative. It was not clear listening to Dawn Butler,

0:23:24 > 0:23:27your colleague on The Andrew Marr Show this morning, she was asked

0:23:27 > 0:23:32whether or not the leadership knew about allegations by Kelvin Hopkins.

0:23:32 > 0:23:36Do you know?I absolutely do not know at this moment in time. That's

0:23:36 > 0:23:38why there has to be an investigation. It is extremely

0:23:38 > 0:23:43important to find out what the allegations were, exactly what

0:23:43 > 0:23:48happened, who was told and who told what to whom. Then we will be in a

0:23:48 > 0:23:53position to see what the situation is. In the meantime, Kelvin Hopkins

0:23:53 > 0:23:59has been suspended which is the cricket thing to do.Rosie Winterton

0:23:59 > 0:24:04has been outspoken about what she let the leadership know. If it is

0:24:04 > 0:24:07the case the leadership did know about these allegations should he

0:24:07 > 0:24:12have been put into the Shadow Cabinet?The real question is who

0:24:12 > 0:24:18did know what when.But what I'm asking you is...I am anot going to

0:24:18 > 0:24:22speculate whether there was an if or whatever. We need to know how that

0:24:22 > 0:24:26information was transmitted. Was it put in writing. What it made clear,

0:24:26 > 0:24:30who was told what, when. Until we have a full investigation it would

0:24:30 > 0:24:34be inappropriate to comment. What is absolute lie clear, we need to get

0:24:34 > 0:24:38this right for the future. We must have proper procedures so we deal

0:24:38 > 0:24:43with incidents as and when they occur. And we deal with them

0:24:43 > 0:24:47prepperly in a way which gets to the bottom of the issue and deals with

0:24:47 > 0:24:51it properly.Why should anyone have confidence the Labour Party will

0:24:51 > 0:24:55treat issues that seriously when, firstly there's a question whether

0:24:55 > 0:25:00they knew about Kelvin hop kips and others have been dissuaded from

0:25:00 > 0:25:05making complaints. Knots just Bex Bailey. Monica Lennon said when she

0:25:05 > 0:25:10was harassed at a party senior figures in the Labour Party told her

0:25:10 > 0:25:16it was her own fault. It seems as if there hasn't been a culture within

0:25:16 > 0:25:22Labour to make a complaint.That's why we're having a thorough review

0:25:22 > 0:25:27of procedures. We brought in new procedures in July. We need to

0:25:27 > 0:25:32ensure there's a proper helpline available. We are appointing an

0:25:32 > 0:25:35independent organisation which will deal with allegations first-hand so

0:25:35 > 0:25:38nobody has to go to somebody they think might know other people, be

0:25:38 > 0:25:44friends with other people. They can go somewhere completely confidential

0:25:44 > 0:25:48and private. These are often things you can't want to tell your cross

0:25:48 > 0:25:52friends about. We will appoint that organisation and make sure people

0:25:52 > 0:25:57can go there and access to it is made widely known. It is very, very

0:25:57 > 0:26:00important when people come into a job, they know if anything does

0:26:00 > 0:26:04happen, they will be able to complain. Whether they are ordinary

0:26:04 > 0:26:10party members or working in Westminster.Thank you for talking

0:26:10 > 0:26:11to us

0:26:11 > 0:26:13For Thank you for talking to us some

0:26:13 > 0:26:14on the left of politics,

0:26:14 > 0:26:17this weekend wasn't just a chance

0:26:17 > 0:26:19to mark the anniversary of the failed gunpowder

0:26:19 > 0:26:21plot here in Britain, but also events in Russia 100 years

0:26:21 > 0:26:23ago, when Bolshevik revolutionaries led by Lenin seized power

0:26:23 > 0:26:25and ushered in seven decades of Communist rule.

0:26:25 > 0:26:27For critics, that's something to regret, not celebrate.

0:26:27 > 0:26:29Elizabeth Glinka went to one event in London to find out more.

0:26:34 > 0:26:36The 7th November 1917.

0:26:36 > 0:26:40Red Guards under the leadership of Vladimir Lenin begin to occupy

0:26:40 > 0:26:44Government buildings in Petrograd.

0:26:44 > 0:26:47This uprising, known popularly as Red October

0:26:47 > 0:26:49because of the difference in the Gregorian calendar,

0:26:49 > 0:26:53was, in fact, a coup.

0:26:53 > 0:26:56The winds of socialist change had been blowing for some time.

0:26:56 > 0:27:02The Tsars had resisted reform and millions toiled in a state

0:27:02 > 0:27:04of almost medieval surfdom.

0:27:04 > 0:27:07Then war.

0:27:07 > 0:27:12Nearly two million Russians would die.

0:27:12 > 0:27:18The revolution had really begun nine months earlier in February 1917.

0:27:18 > 0:27:24The world's first socialist republic was declared.

0:27:24 > 0:27:26October, well that was the Bolsheviks

0:27:26 > 0:27:31asserting their authority.

0:27:32 > 0:27:36A hundred years on, as this event at the TUC shows,

0:27:36 > 0:27:38there's still plenty of people who want to remember and even

0:27:38 > 0:27:42celebrate those momentous events.

0:27:42 > 0:27:45Mainly as an event in history,

0:27:45 > 0:27:48this is an example of historical development in action,

0:27:48 > 0:27:51the ability of people to club together and be able to affect

0:27:51 > 0:27:53the discourse of history.

0:27:53 > 0:27:56It was people's first attempt at trying to build socialism.

0:27:56 > 0:27:58Although there were many terrible things that happened,

0:27:58 > 0:28:01I think we have to try and draw from experience.

0:28:01 > 0:28:03Jeremy Corbyn's close friend and adviser, Andrew Murray,

0:28:03 > 0:28:06was chairing the opening session.

0:28:06 > 0:28:10He didn't want to talk to us but we did manage to speak

0:28:10 > 0:28:16to the daughter of one of the most famous Communists of all time.

0:28:16 > 0:28:18TRANSLATION:It's an historic moment

0:28:18 > 0:28:21which opened up possibilities for further changes

0:28:21 > 0:28:24and allowed other people to strive for a different world.

0:28:24 > 0:28:27A world, which it seems, some are still keen to push for.

0:28:27 > 0:28:30We're growing, so there is obviously a positive reflection.

0:28:30 > 0:28:32There is a lot of negative propaganda that comes

0:28:32 > 0:28:34from the Cold War period.

0:28:34 > 0:28:36It is harder to talk to older people maybe.

0:28:36 > 0:28:38But younger people are quite receptive.

0:28:38 > 0:28:41The events and discussions taking place here today cover a whole range

0:28:41 > 0:28:44of topics from women's rights to the Third World

0:28:44 > 0:28:47and the impact on British socialism.

0:28:47 > 0:28:50But there's much less discussion of the Russian Civil War,

0:28:50 > 0:28:54the purges and the political repression that would come later.

0:28:54 > 0:28:57We wanted to have this conference

0:28:57 > 0:29:00because we wanted to show it in a positive light.

0:29:00 > 0:29:03Whatever one's view of what happened to the Soviet Union subsequently

0:29:03 > 0:29:07the fact is it is important to understand the process

0:29:07 > 0:29:11of revolutionary change for its own sake.

0:29:12 > 0:29:16Red October would usher in 70 years of communism.

0:29:16 > 0:29:19The proletarite would rise, find respect and security.

0:29:19 > 0:29:22But the suppression of the peoples of Eastern Europe, the forced labour

0:29:22 > 0:29:27camps and the murder of hundreds of thousands, if not millions

0:29:27 > 0:29:30of people, make it difficult for many to see that revolution

0:29:30 > 0:29:35as something to celebrate.

0:29:36 > 0:29:38That was Elizabeth Glinka reporting.

0:29:38 > 0:29:40So is the centenary of the Russian Revolution a cause

0:29:40 > 0:29:41for celebration, or regret?

0:29:41 > 0:29:43Well, to discuss this I'm joined by former Labour

0:29:43 > 0:29:49and Respect MP George Galloway, and the journalist Peter Hitchens.

0:29:49 > 0:29:54Good morning. Let me start with you George Galloway. Is the October

0:29:54 > 0:29:59revolution a cause for celebration? With the, if not for the October

0:29:59 > 0:30:02revolution, we'd been conducting this interview in German. Though the

0:30:02 > 0:30:06truth is this interview wouldn't be taking place and we probably

0:30:06 > 0:30:13wouldn't be alive for a variety of reasons. The Soviet Union broke the

0:30:13 > 0:30:17back of Hitler, as Mr Churchill often owe pined in Parliament and

0:30:17 > 0:30:24elsewhere. If not for the Soviet Union, Hitler would have ruled. And

0:30:24 > 0:30:30his successorsness, perhaps until now, from Vladivostok all the way to

0:30:30 > 0:30:34Portugal.You say we wouldn't be able to have this discussion. In the

0:30:34 > 0:30:37former Soviet Union we couldn't have this office either?That's also

0:30:37 > 0:30:44true. But even the...George will be able to say, that of course.Even

0:30:44 > 0:30:49the sun has spots on its face as they used to say in the Soviet

0:30:49 > 0:30:58Union. There is no doubt tremendous abrasions, big crimes, a lot of

0:30:58 > 0:31:07suffering but, if not for the transformation, then the Soviet

0:31:07 > 0:31:14Union, Russia's GDP increased from 1930 to 190 and the Nazi occupation.

0:31:14 > 0:31:21And the strength that defeated Hitlerism would not have been there.

0:31:21 > 0:31:25Peter Hitchens, does it offend you there are people celebrating 100

0:31:25 > 0:31:30years since the Russian Revolution? Offend? No, but in the Soviet Union,

0:31:30 > 0:31:35in which I lived, you would not have been able to say it was set up by a

0:31:35 > 0:31:38cynical bitch, almost bloodless, but engineered by the German Imperial

0:31:38 > 0:31:55Government using -- a cynical putsch, almost bloodless. That this

0:31:55 > 0:32:00was the inauguration of an immensely long period of repression,

0:32:00 > 0:32:04brutality, secret police, concentration camps and lies, which

0:32:04 > 0:32:08I am likely to have seen come to an end in my lifetime, and I cannot see

0:32:08 > 0:32:11why anybody looking at that disastrous country where so much

0:32:11 > 0:32:14misery was needlessly imposed on so many people for so long could

0:32:14 > 0:32:17possibly celebrate the beginning of it, which was completely avoidable,

0:32:17 > 0:32:23and as I say was truly the result of the cynical foreign policy and

0:32:23 > 0:32:25intelligence operations of the Imperial German Government is trying

0:32:25 > 0:32:30to save it skin...But everyone including George Galloway

0:32:30 > 0:32:35acknowledges the tyranny and terror that followed.He doesn't. He gives

0:32:35 > 0:32:38statistics about GDP but fails to mention the people murdered in

0:32:38 > 0:32:44labour

0:32:44 > 0:32:50camp... He was of course formerly a Trotskyite and sung the praises of

0:32:50 > 0:32:54Lenin, which I have not done and neither have I done today. I have

0:32:54 > 0:32:59never been a Communist, unlike Peter Hitchens, but I do acknowledge and

0:32:59 > 0:33:03celebrate that an entirely different world opened up as a result of the

0:33:03 > 0:33:08events in October 19 17. China, you have just seen their party congress,

0:33:08 > 0:33:12decorated with the iconography of the Bolshevik Revolution, and China

0:33:12 > 0:33:16is the most powerful, or soon will be the most powerful country on the

0:33:16 > 0:33:20earth.With one of the most repressive government?I don't think

0:33:20 > 0:33:26that is true. There is repression in China, but...Enormous repression in

0:33:26 > 0:33:30China! How can you possibly argue there is an?China has taken more

0:33:30 > 0:33:35people out of poverty in the last 30 years than any country, resume,

0:33:35 > 0:33:41system, ever has -- how can you possibly argue there is not?All

0:33:41 > 0:33:44despots always argue, trying to distract your attention from the

0:33:44 > 0:33:47mountains of skulls behind them, their supposed economic success,

0:33:47 > 0:33:51which generally does not turn out to be as great as claimed. The Soviet

0:33:51 > 0:33:56Union was an enormous pile of rust by the time I lived there and was a

0:33:56 > 0:34:01complete catastrophe.Yes, that is why it fell down. But we are talking

0:34:01 > 0:34:06about the Revolution 100 years ago. Is it possible to separate the two

0:34:06 > 0:34:09events? A popular overthrowing of a government is perhaps different from

0:34:09 > 0:34:14the tyranny and terror that followed.It was not a popular

0:34:14 > 0:34:18overthrow. You sure this Eisenstein propaganda as if it were fact. What

0:34:18 > 0:34:23we see was a film made afterwards. What actually happened was a putsch

0:34:23 > 0:34:32in the middle of the night in which hardly anybody... Nobody has even

0:34:32 > 0:34:39mentioned...That German connection, a rather more important...Nobody

0:34:39 > 0:34:42has even mentioned during this year until now that there was a Russian

0:34:42 > 0:34:47Revolution. There were two. The first one was a genuine uprising,

0:34:47 > 0:34:50overthrowing the old regime, and I think we can all be glad of it. The

0:34:50 > 0:34:57second one was a cynical for -- foreign financed putsch and it does

0:34:57 > 0:35:01not deserve to be spoken out.Is that true, and Menshevik revolution

0:35:01 > 0:35:06would have done better than a Bolshevik one?It is not my business

0:35:06 > 0:35:12and entirely counterfactual fiction, if I may...Unlike how you open this

0:35:12 > 0:35:16discussion.That is the most important thing. If not for the

0:35:16 > 0:35:23Soviet Union, we wouldn't be here. Hetmyer might still, and most of the

0:35:23 > 0:35:28world, with its allies -- Adolph Hitler might have won and they make,

0:35:28 > 0:35:33and most of the world...The effect of Bolshevism and coming is on

0:35:33 > 0:35:37Europe was colossal.Let's bring it all a little bit more up-to-date.

0:35:37 > 0:35:42You were saying earlier you have never been a Leninist, although

0:35:42 > 0:35:48Peter Hitchens confesses he was at one time.Absolutely was a

0:35:48 > 0:35:55Trotskyist, and now nor the complete folly of that particular political

0:35:55 > 0:36:00disposition.John McDonnell in the Labour Party openly says he is a

0:36:00 > 0:36:04Trotskyist, a Leninist, is that a problem for the Labour Party?I

0:36:04 > 0:36:08would have thought, arts would be more respected now than he has been

0:36:08 > 0:36:13for quite some time as capitalism is collapsing around our ears. From

0:36:13 > 0:36:192008 the Economist itself, the bible of capitalism, began to resurrect

0:36:19 > 0:36:24Marxist economics and analysis, so I really don't think it is. Jeremy

0:36:24 > 0:36:34Corbyn is not a Marxist. It only took them four years, 54...It is

0:36:34 > 0:36:41not that.I think we are moving into an era where Governments like the

0:36:41 > 0:36:45Chinese Government are making plans, and are succeeding in implementing

0:36:45 > 0:36:51them, and thus transforming their position. China in 1949, and I don't

0:36:51 > 0:36:54need to tell you, was just about the most backward place you could

0:36:54 > 0:37:01possibly imagine. And from 1949 to now it has sold transforms that it

0:37:01 > 0:37:09is the world's biggest economy...We are in danger of getting sidetracked

0:37:09 > 0:37:14by China here.I have to put this point in. If China was backward in

0:37:14 > 0:37:181949 it was far more backward by the time Mao Zedong finished his great

0:37:18 > 0:37:22leap forward and starved millions of people to death in the period of

0:37:22 > 0:37:27economic lunacy. You just don't notice...What George was saying

0:37:27 > 0:37:31they are, and a sense certainly amongst younger voters in this

0:37:31 > 0:37:33country and others, where they are turning against capitalism, they

0:37:33 > 0:37:37don't think it has worked or delivered for them, that this kind

0:37:37 > 0:37:41of Marxist Leninist philosophy is becoming more popular?Let's hope

0:37:41 > 0:37:45not. The fact the current system is failing does not seem to recommend

0:37:45 > 0:37:50the Soviet system, which is demonstrably a failure, and even its

0:37:50 > 0:37:54own leaders admitted it failed and that is why they tried to reform it

0:37:54 > 0:37:57in the period I was there and why it collapsed. Whatever you might want

0:37:57 > 0:38:00to conclude from examining our position, the Soviet alternative is

0:38:00 > 0:38:03not the thing you want the dues. This was a long period of disaster,

0:38:03 > 0:38:08and I remember at the end of it watching in Moscow said a film which

0:38:08 > 0:38:14has never been shown here, and the title means approximately we can't

0:38:14 > 0:38:20go on living like this, and for the first time, the politburo told the

0:38:20 > 0:38:22truth about what life was like in the dreadful place and everyone in

0:38:22 > 0:38:26that cinema was weeping because finally they saw the truth being

0:38:26 > 0:38:28told about the dreadful anti-civilisation in which they had

0:38:28 > 0:38:32been taught to live for so long. The idea we should celebrate it revive

0:38:32 > 0:38:37it seems to me to be verging on the obscene.George, one interesting

0:38:37 > 0:38:41question about this of course, whilst there are events going on in

0:38:41 > 0:38:45London and across the UK to mark this centenary, it is not being

0:38:45 > 0:38:48celebrated in Russia.I was in Russia a couple of weeks ago. There

0:38:48 > 0:38:53is a big debate about whether it ought to be, and many people are

0:38:53 > 0:38:57celebrating it...Vladimir Putin is not. He would want to ignore it.But

0:38:57 > 0:39:02the Communist Party is the second biggest party in Russia. And it is

0:39:02 > 0:39:08the ruling party in China, which, with respect, is not a separate

0:39:08 > 0:39:10thing, because China is continuing the Russian Revolution and doing

0:39:10 > 0:39:16rather better at it than the Russians did, but there are many

0:39:16 > 0:39:19people, particularly older, that is true, who think that the era of the

0:39:19 > 0:39:25Soviet Union was better than the very cold period of capitalism that

0:39:25 > 0:39:32succeeded it. So half the world followed for a time the red flag,

0:39:32 > 0:39:40the red banner of Leninism. No one will do so again. Leninism of the

0:39:40 > 0:39:44kind that Peter used to proselytise is certainly not coming back, but

0:39:44 > 0:39:49Marxism is going to live on.Let's hope not.Thank you both, gentlemen,

0:39:49 > 0:39:51for coming on to speak about that.

0:39:51 > 0:39:52It's coming up to 11.40am.

0:39:52 > 0:39:53You're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:39:53 > 0:39:57Coming up on the programme:

0:39:57 > 0:40:00We've taken the moodbox to where else but bonfire night celebrations.

0:40:00 > 0:40:02We've taken the moodbox to where else but bonfire night celebrations?

0:40:02 > 0:40:05It wasn't just Westminster that had the fireworks this week.

0:40:05 > 0:40:07We're asking people in Guildford in Surrey,

0:40:07 > 0:40:13does Theresa May have control of her Government and her party?

0:40:13 > 0:40:22First, though, it's time for the Sunday Politics where you are.

0:40:22 > 0:40:23Hello.

0:40:23 > 0:40:25Welcome to the London part of the show.

0:40:25 > 0:40:27I'm Jo Coburn.

0:40:27 > 0:40:29Joining me for the duration today, Rosena Allin-Khan, Labour MP

0:40:29 > 0:40:40for Tooting who succeeded Sadiq Khan in the seat.

0:40:43 > 0:40:45And Andrew Rosindell, the Conservative MP for Romford.

0:40:45 > 0:40:50Welcome to both of you.

0:40:50 > 0:40:53This week, the Bank of England said it believed up to 75,000 jobs

0:40:53 > 0:40:55could be lost in financial services following Britain's departure

0:40:55 > 0:40:56from the European Union.

0:40:56 > 0:40:59They fear that in the event of a no-deal Brexit, these jobs,

0:40:59 > 0:41:01the overwhelming majority of which are now in London,

0:41:01 > 0:41:03would be moved to the continent.

0:41:03 > 0:41:05The Bank of England described that is as a reasonable scenario.

0:41:05 > 0:41:07Do you agree?

0:41:07 > 0:41:09How many predictions have we had from the Bank of England that have

0:41:09 > 0:41:11been completely wrong?

0:41:11 > 0:41:13I'm afraid that too many people are making productions which usually

0:41:13 > 0:41:14turn out to be false.

0:41:14 > 0:41:17And they never think about the new jobs that will be

0:41:17 > 0:41:19created by the global Britain policy we're adopting.

0:41:19 > 0:41:20Huge opportunities for Britain.

0:41:20 > 0:41:25Of course, there will be an adjustment.

0:41:25 > 0:41:26Of course some jobs may change.

0:41:26 > 0:41:33Some may go.

0:41:33 > 0:41:36But it's a huge opportunity, and that's the way we should

0:41:36 > 0:41:37be looking at it.

0:41:37 > 0:41:39Which predictions have the Bank of England got totally

0:41:39 > 0:41:40wrong in the past?

0:41:40 > 0:41:43Well, if you remember, before the referendum, the CBI,

0:41:43 > 0:41:44the Bank of England, all sorts of international

0:41:44 > 0:41:46organisations, financial institutions, said that there

0:41:46 > 0:41:48would be an economic downturn, a massive one, that we would go

0:41:48 > 0:41:50straight into a recession.

0:41:50 > 0:41:58Well, none of that happened, and actually...

0:41:58 > 0:42:00And you're saying none of it will happen?

0:42:00 > 0:42:02No one can predict the future of any economy.

0:42:02 > 0:42:04Econominies do go up and down, but I think Brexit has

0:42:04 > 0:42:06not been a disaster.

0:42:06 > 0:42:08In fact, I think it's going to be a great success.

0:42:08 > 0:42:11Rosena, do you think it is true to say that Project Fear,

0:42:11 > 0:42:14as it was dubbed in the run-up to the referendum, predicted

0:42:14 > 0:42:16an immediate economic hit, if you like, and that hasn't

0:42:16 > 0:42:19happened, many people would say - is this phase two of Project Fear,

0:42:19 > 0:42:21predicting that up to 75,000 jobs may be lost?

0:42:21 > 0:42:23No, I don't believe it is.

0:42:23 > 0:42:26I actually think that this is a very serious warning sign from the Bank

0:42:26 > 0:42:29of England that this Government's misguided approach to the handling

0:42:29 > 0:42:31of the Brexit negotiations is going to have a seriously

0:42:31 > 0:42:36negative impact on jobs and growth in London,

0:42:36 > 0:42:39and no deal would have an absolutely catastrophic effect for living

0:42:39 > 0:42:40standards and jobs in London.

0:42:40 > 0:42:43And is that because you want to thwart Brexit, and actually try

0:42:43 > 0:42:45and find a way of remaining in the European Union?

0:42:45 > 0:42:48It's not that I want to thwart Brexit at all.

0:42:48 > 0:42:51It's the fact that I can see what is going on out there.

0:42:51 > 0:42:53People are so shrouded with fear at the moment because this

0:42:53 > 0:42:55Government clearly can't negotiate their way out of a paper

0:42:55 > 0:42:58bag, let alone a good deal, that there already relocating

0:42:58 > 0:43:02to other parts of Europe.

0:43:02 > 0:43:05I mean, there is evidence of that already, and we had that tweet

0:43:05 > 0:43:08from the Lloyds boss saying he's looking forward to spending

0:43:08 > 0:43:09more time in Frankfurt.

0:43:09 > 0:43:11I mean, there's somebody in the industry worried

0:43:11 > 0:43:13about banking jobs that are going to move the other

0:43:13 > 0:43:14capitals in Europe.

0:43:14 > 0:43:16Jo, I'm here to serve my country.

0:43:16 > 0:43:18I believe in Britain, and I believe we're going to be

0:43:18 > 0:43:21a great successful nation outside the EU, and I really do think,

0:43:21 > 0:43:28and I say to the Labour Party, I say to businesses,

0:43:28 > 0:43:31the Bank of England, get over this - we are leaving the EU,

0:43:31 > 0:43:33we can be very successful economically as we've

0:43:33 > 0:43:34always been in the past.

0:43:34 > 0:43:37The EU is not the reason why Britain is a great

0:43:37 > 0:43:40successful economic entity.

0:43:40 > 0:43:42It's because of our own policies, of our own ingenuity,

0:43:42 > 0:43:45and we should let that be successful, and not keep harping

0:43:45 > 0:43:47on about a referendum which is now history.

0:43:47 > 0:43:48Let's move forward and make Britain a success.

0:43:48 > 0:43:52If I may, while the Conservative Government are trying to throw us

0:43:52 > 0:43:54over an economic cliff edge, I'd like to ask you,

0:43:54 > 0:43:57if you can give me the date that we can expect the first payment

0:43:57 > 0:43:59of the £350 million for our NHS?

0:43:59 > 0:44:01Again, we're bringing party politics into what should be a united

0:44:01 > 0:44:03position to do the best for Britain.

0:44:03 > 0:44:05But the Conservative Government are completely divided?

0:44:05 > 0:44:10Not at all.

0:44:10 > 0:44:12We want the best situation for the United Kingdom post-Brexit,

0:44:12 > 0:44:16and we'd like you on board to help us.

0:44:16 > 0:44:19This should be a national task to actually ensure our

0:44:19 > 0:44:21people are prosperous and that Britain succeeds once

0:44:21 > 0:44:25we leave the European Union.

0:44:25 > 0:44:28I'm afraid you may not like it but we are leaving the EU,

0:44:28 > 0:44:30the British people voted for it and we're going to

0:44:30 > 0:44:31follow it through.

0:44:31 > 0:44:33Did people actually vote, as Philip Hammond said,

0:44:33 > 0:44:36did they vote to be poorer?

0:44:36 > 0:44:37He says not.

0:44:37 > 0:44:38Well, that's not going to happen, Jo.

0:44:38 > 0:44:41We are going to be trading globally, make our own laws,

0:44:41 > 0:44:42our own trade agreements.

0:44:42 > 0:44:45The opportunities there are vast.

0:44:45 > 0:44:47But how do you know if you've just said

0:44:47 > 0:44:50that the predictions on the other side, it's impossible to be able

0:44:50 > 0:44:51to forecast what's going to happen?

0:44:51 > 0:44:53How are you so confident, how can you guarantee

0:44:53 > 0:44:56it's going to turn out in the way you say?

0:44:56 > 0:45:00It is very easy because we make our own decisions like we used to do.

0:45:00 > 0:45:02When we make our own decisions, the British people always succeed.

0:45:02 > 0:45:05When we trade globally, when we make our own laws,

0:45:05 > 0:45:07we can always succeed because we are a confident people.

0:45:07 > 0:45:08Can I just correct myself?

0:45:08 > 0:45:11Earlier I think I said the head of Lloyds, what I meant

0:45:11 > 0:45:13was Lloyd Blankfein, who is the Chief Executive

0:45:13 > 0:45:14of Goldman Sachs.

0:45:14 > 0:45:17Talk about conflating the name of the bank and the name

0:45:17 > 0:45:20of the person at the head of it!

0:45:20 > 0:45:23But in terms of those predictions, the numbers vary so hugely, and it

0:45:23 > 0:45:26does depend on the trade deal that the UK actually secures.

0:45:26 > 0:45:28So you also can't predict, really, with any confirmation,

0:45:28 > 0:45:31that it will be as bad as the Bank of England says?

0:45:31 > 0:45:33Of course.

0:45:33 > 0:45:36But I do know the Labour Party want to protect the rights of EU

0:45:36 > 0:45:37citizens living and wokking here.

0:45:37 > 0:45:39So do we.

0:45:39 > 0:45:40The Conservative Party don't.

0:45:40 > 0:45:41We've made that clear, haven't we?

0:45:41 > 0:45:44What I do know is the Labour Party want to protect workers' rights,

0:45:44 > 0:45:46consumers' rights and our environmental standards

0:45:46 > 0:45:47and the Conservative Party don't.

0:45:47 > 0:45:48How do you know that?

0:45:48 > 0:45:50What evidence is there the Conservative Party doesn't

0:45:50 > 0:45:51want to protect workers' rights?

0:45:51 > 0:45:54Because I sit in the chamber all the time.

0:45:54 > 0:45:57I see how they vote against every amendment we put out there in order

0:45:57 > 0:45:59to prove that the EU put workers' rights first.

0:45:59 > 0:46:01You have a party, Andrew, that's so divided...

0:46:01 > 0:46:03Sorry, we're integrating EU laws into British law

0:46:03 > 0:46:05so there is a seamless continuation of the existing arrangement.

0:46:05 > 0:46:09The Repeal Bill has been stalled again and again and again.

0:46:09 > 0:46:11The only reason this Repeal Bill's been stalled

0:46:11 > 0:46:13is because of the political antics of the opposition.

0:46:13 > 0:46:16So, we want to actually continue with sensible arrangements,

0:46:16 > 0:46:18whether it's workers' rights, the environment, citizens' rights,

0:46:18 > 0:46:20all of that is sensible.

0:46:20 > 0:46:22We don't want to jettison any of it.

0:46:22 > 0:46:24You really shouldn't say things that aren't correct.

0:46:24 > 0:46:28That debate is clearly going to go on over the next two years.

0:46:28 > 0:46:32Now, the fire at Grenfell Tower in June caused an estimated 80

0:46:32 > 0:46:36deaths and over 70 injuries.

0:46:36 > 0:46:40But the local NHS Trust says that it is the long-term mental

0:46:40 > 0:46:44health impact that could be the greatest challenge of all.

0:46:46 > 0:46:49A few weeks ago, Grenfell Tower was covered up by authorities.

0:46:49 > 0:46:52An indication of how traumatic the sight of the ruin is for so many

0:46:52 > 0:46:55survivors and local residents.

0:46:55 > 0:46:59Experts say as many as 11,000 people could be suffering from mental

0:46:59 > 0:47:03health difficulties as a consequence of the fire.

0:47:03 > 0:47:06The man leading the mental health response claims that makes

0:47:06 > 0:47:10the central and north-west London NHS Trust the largest trauma

0:47:10 > 0:47:12response operation in Europe.

0:47:12 > 0:47:15They're not just the people in the tower but people

0:47:15 > 0:47:17in the neighbouring area who were evacuated.

0:47:17 > 0:47:20And the area around it, very often people have very strong

0:47:20 > 0:47:22social links to people in the tower.

0:47:22 > 0:47:25They knew someone in there who was affected.

0:47:25 > 0:47:27Then you have the bereaved.

0:47:27 > 0:47:29And, of course, if you look out from Grenfell Tower,

0:47:29 > 0:47:32which I have since the fire, you see lots of tower blocks,

0:47:32 > 0:47:36lots of people could see the fire over a very long period of time.

0:47:36 > 0:47:40Those affected include the head of London Fire Brigade Dany Cotton

0:47:40 > 0:47:44who has herself sought counselling.

0:47:44 > 0:47:48The trust has so far seen more than 1,300 people for post-traumatic

0:47:48 > 0:47:52stress disorder or related concerns.

0:47:52 > 0:47:54But there are worries many who are suffering will not

0:47:54 > 0:47:56seek the help they need.

0:47:56 > 0:47:58200 staff have been dedicated to knocking on doors

0:47:58 > 0:48:00to find these people.

0:48:00 > 0:48:02Psychologists have also accompanied at least 40 survivors

0:48:02 > 0:48:07on visits to the tower.

0:48:07 > 0:48:10They wanted to go into their old flats to collect usually thinks

0:48:10 > 0:48:14of sentimental value - photographs and keepsakes -

0:48:14 > 0:48:17and for a lot of people they were saying that it also gives

0:48:17 > 0:48:19them some sense of closure.

0:48:19 > 0:48:21They realised it brought it home that they weren't

0:48:21 > 0:48:24going back into there, and so they were able to move on.

0:48:24 > 0:48:27The blaze last summer lasted 60 hours, but the toll it's had

0:48:27 > 0:48:30on the mental health of so many Londoners will not be

0:48:30 > 0:48:33known for many years yet.

0:48:33 > 0:48:36Joining me to discuss this is Claire Murdoch,

0:48:36 > 0:48:39CEO of the central and north west London NHS Foundation Trust.

0:48:39 > 0:48:41Welcome to the programme.

0:48:41 > 0:48:45With the NHS straining at seams, according to many people

0:48:45 > 0:48:48who work within it, do you have the wherewithal

0:48:48 > 0:48:50to cope with this extra mental health crisis?

0:48:50 > 0:48:52We absolutely do.

0:48:52 > 0:48:56We've been inundated with offers of help from experts

0:48:56 > 0:48:59from across the country who want to come and

0:48:59 > 0:49:05bring their skills into Grenfell and work with us.

0:49:05 > 0:49:09We've recruited to more than 100 additional therapy posts to start

0:49:09 > 0:49:13to treat people suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder,

0:49:13 > 0:49:15and the Government and NHS England combined have made it quite clear

0:49:15 > 0:49:18that we must do the best by the people of Grenfell.

0:49:18 > 0:49:22Do you need more money, though, to deal with this?

0:49:22 > 0:49:25It's both more money and more people, and we have both of those.

0:49:25 > 0:49:27Right.

0:49:27 > 0:49:30I mean, Dr John Green, clinical director at the Grenfell Tower NHS

0:49:30 > 0:49:32Mental Health Response, says it's the largest mental health

0:49:32 > 0:49:34operation of its kind in Europe.

0:49:34 > 0:49:35Is that true?

0:49:35 > 0:49:39We think it's true, yes, because it's the largest

0:49:39 > 0:49:44incident of its kind, and it's got some exceptional

0:49:44 > 0:49:50characteristics that mean that the trauma that is felt will be

0:49:50 > 0:49:54felt now and for a long time, and will need expert treatment

0:49:54 > 0:49:56as people experience, over the coming year, two and three,

0:49:56 > 0:49:59post-traumatic stress disorder and other anxiety,

0:49:59 > 0:50:00depression, and so on and so forth.

0:50:00 > 0:50:03So we believe it is true.

0:50:03 > 0:50:07So have you got the guarantees that you are going to have the resources

0:50:07 > 0:50:09at your disposal in terms of the expert staff

0:50:09 > 0:50:12as well as the financial resources to deal with this in the long-term,

0:50:12 > 0:50:13from the Department of Health?

0:50:13 > 0:50:15Yes.

0:50:15 > 0:50:17What's Jeremy Hunt promised you, then?

0:50:17 > 0:50:22Well, I don't know if Jeremy Hunt personally has promised me this,

0:50:22 > 0:50:25but what we are doing at the moment, because of the extraordinary nature

0:50:25 > 0:50:29of Grenfell, we are working really closely with the local community,

0:50:29 > 0:50:33faith leaders, third sector groups, the GPs and others to ascertain

0:50:33 > 0:50:35the extent of the need.

0:50:35 > 0:50:39I mean, we are learning as we go as well.

0:50:39 > 0:50:43Obviously where our expertise kicks in as the NHS is in evidence-based

0:50:43 > 0:50:47treatment for trauma, but what we are clear

0:50:47 > 0:50:51about at the moment is where the need arises we will meet it.

0:50:51 > 0:50:54And that funding and personnel, at the moment, do not look

0:50:54 > 0:50:56like they will be a problem at all.

0:50:56 > 0:50:58Right, your colleague, Doctor John Green, has said

0:50:58 > 0:51:00that the trust is doing a lot of things that people

0:51:00 > 0:51:02had never done before.

0:51:02 > 0:51:04What does he mean - what, for example?

0:51:04 > 0:51:11I think given the extraordinary nature of Grenfell, we are learning,

0:51:11 > 0:51:14as the NHS, to bring our expertise to bear with the different

0:51:14 > 0:51:25communities there, so we're doing lots of outreach.

0:51:25 > 0:51:28For example, day and night we've got nurses with backpacks on who've

0:51:28 > 0:51:29knocked on more than 3000 doors.

0:51:29 > 0:51:32We are in the churches, in mosques, we were at

0:51:32 > 0:51:33the Notting Hill Carnival.

0:51:33 > 0:51:35We have just had an outreach team working around Halloween

0:51:35 > 0:51:42and then Guy Fawkes night, making sure that any event that

0:51:42 > 0:51:44comes that needs additional support for local communities

0:51:44 > 0:51:45we are able to provide.

0:51:45 > 0:51:48Rosena, what do you make of the authorities' response

0:51:48 > 0:51:50to Grenfell Tower, particularly in relation to what is now

0:51:50 > 0:51:54a mental health challenge?

0:51:54 > 0:51:57Well, first of all I would just really like to applaud Claire

0:51:57 > 0:52:00and her team for the sterling work that they are doing, and I think

0:52:00 > 0:52:02what happened at Grenfell Tower is an unprecedented catastrophe

0:52:02 > 0:52:06of unparalleled magnitude which is going to have

0:52:06 > 0:52:07to psychological, physical and traumatic effects

0:52:07 > 0:52:10for the ongoing period.

0:52:10 > 0:52:12Now, this goes beyond party politics, but there are lessons

0:52:12 > 0:52:13that need to be learned.

0:52:13 > 0:52:17Some of the response happened far too slowly,

0:52:17 > 0:52:20and for example there was a family in Tooting who really really

0:52:20 > 0:52:22suffered as a result.

0:52:22 > 0:52:24Do you think the response was to slow?

0:52:24 > 0:52:29And are you reassured by Theresa May's commitment

0:52:29 > 0:52:32when she says that mental health should be given parity of esteem

0:52:32 > 0:52:35with physical health issues?

0:52:35 > 0:52:38It's relatively easy to say that - how do you actually back it up?

0:52:38 > 0:52:41I agree with her entirely, and, Claire, you reassured a lot

0:52:41 > 0:52:43of people today I think in what you've said.

0:52:43 > 0:52:46It's a terrible tragedy.

0:52:46 > 0:52:49Rosena's right - it was absolutely awful and no one

0:52:49 > 0:52:51could have predicted it.

0:52:51 > 0:52:55We've got to learn the lessons from that, and certainly in terms

0:52:55 > 0:52:58of those people that are suffering trauma after this event -

0:52:58 > 0:53:01not only those from Grenfell but the surrounding area,

0:53:01 > 0:53:07we need to be there for them, and the Government has committed,

0:53:07 > 0:53:11and Claire's confirming this, that there is the support there.

0:53:11 > 0:53:15Yes, it should be parity with physical illness,

0:53:15 > 0:53:17and I think the Prime Minister's made that very clear,

0:53:17 > 0:53:19that that's going to be one of her priorities

0:53:19 > 0:53:21in the coming years.

0:53:21 > 0:53:23An extra billion is being put into that in the next two

0:53:23 > 0:53:24or three years alone.

0:53:24 > 0:53:27Right, do MPs get it?

0:53:27 > 0:53:29I mean, you're a trained doctor - do you think your colleagues

0:53:29 > 0:53:32in the Houses of Parliament have really appreciated the importance

0:53:32 > 0:53:34of mental health as an issue today?

0:53:34 > 0:53:36I still practice medicine in the NHS.

0:53:36 > 0:53:40I'm a frontline emergency trauma doctor.

0:53:40 > 0:53:44I see people coming in with mental health issues all of the time.

0:53:44 > 0:53:47I see people in my community suffering with mental health issues.

0:53:47 > 0:53:52I see people coming in with physical manifestations

0:53:52 > 0:53:59of mental health problems.

0:53:59 > 0:54:02Since 2010 there are almost 7,000 less mental health doctors

0:54:02 > 0:54:06and nurses in our communities.

0:54:06 > 0:54:09I think that people like Claire and her team can only do their work

0:54:09 > 0:54:10if they're adequately resourced.

0:54:10 > 0:54:13I think a lot of hot air's come out of this Government

0:54:13 > 0:54:14about mental health provision.

0:54:14 > 0:54:16We need to see the walk being walked, not just

0:54:16 > 0:54:18the talking about talked.

0:54:18 > 0:54:21Why were there cuts made to the numbers of mental health staff?

0:54:21 > 0:54:24I can't answer that.

0:54:24 > 0:54:28It is a decision based on local needs and whether it is a trust that

0:54:28 > 0:54:30decides that or Central Government, that's a matter decided

0:54:30 > 0:54:32there and then.

0:54:32 > 0:54:35What we've all learnt from this incident is we need more resources.

0:54:35 > 0:54:36We've heard today there are resources going in.

0:54:36 > 0:54:41No Government gets it right.

0:54:41 > 0:54:44Let's face it, any party in power, there's always need for more money

0:54:44 > 0:54:45for different things.

0:54:45 > 0:54:47But Theresa May's obviously made this a personal crusade?

0:54:47 > 0:54:48She has done.

0:54:48 > 0:54:50I applaud her for that.

0:54:50 > 0:54:53We've really got to make sure this doesn't become a political football.

0:54:53 > 0:54:55The people out there need support.

0:54:55 > 0:54:58Politicians of all parties should work together to make sure

0:54:58 > 0:54:59in a situation like that, adequate resources

0:54:59 > 0:55:01are made available.

0:55:01 > 0:55:05To improve mental health for people who have suffered

0:55:05 > 0:55:07in the tragedy of Grenfell Tower, how important is the fact

0:55:07 > 0:55:13they should be housed adequately?

0:55:13 > 0:55:16It is undeniable people need the security of a home and to know

0:55:16 > 0:55:20where they're going to be living.

0:55:20 > 0:55:23We would see it as generally, you can provide more effective

0:55:23 > 0:55:25post-traumatic stress disorder counselling once people

0:55:25 > 0:55:27are living somewhere settled.

0:55:27 > 0:55:28So, housing's important.

0:55:28 > 0:55:32A home is important, of course.

0:55:32 > 0:55:34Claire, thank you very much for coming in.

0:55:34 > 0:55:35Thank you.

0:55:35 > 0:55:37Now, crowdfunding is being increasingly used to fund community

0:55:37 > 0:55:40projects in London many of which may once have been run by councils.

0:55:40 > 0:55:44So, is this type of civic crowdfunding digital

0:55:44 > 0:55:47democracy in action or is it, as some critics claim,

0:55:47 > 0:55:57privatisation masquerading as democracy?

0:55:58 > 0:55:59# I need the dollar, dollar, that's

0:55:59 > 0:56:02what I need. #

0:56:02 > 0:56:05From the Shoreditch cafe and art space to the Camden high line.

0:56:05 > 0:56:07All these community projects are trying to get

0:56:07 > 0:56:08the public to part with their cash

0:56:08 > 0:56:09through online crowdfunding.

0:56:09 > 0:56:11And civic crowdfunding for projects that

0:56:11 > 0:56:14provide a community service or improve local spaces is a growing

0:56:14 > 0:56:16trend in London.

0:56:16 > 0:56:18It has the support of councils across the capital,

0:56:18 > 0:56:21as well as the mayor.

0:56:21 > 0:56:23Crowdfund London can help you make a real difference

0:56:23 > 0:56:25in your local area.

0:56:25 > 0:56:27This is one of the projects the mayor is backing.

0:56:27 > 0:56:30A new library in Cricklewood in Brent.

0:56:30 > 0:56:33The old library was closed due to council cuts sparking protest

0:56:33 > 0:56:36from the local community.

0:56:36 > 0:56:39Now volunteers are crowdfunding to recreate that service.

0:56:39 > 0:56:42We have no choice.

0:56:42 > 0:56:44There's no other community space here that has open

0:56:44 > 0:56:45access for everybody.

0:56:45 > 0:56:47I don't want to mitigate this constant cutting

0:56:47 > 0:56:49of funds to councils.

0:56:49 > 0:56:52I don't agree with it.

0:56:52 > 0:56:54However, we're living in that world on local civic projects

0:56:54 > 0:56:57and are trying to make the most of it.

0:56:57 > 0:57:00Spending on local civic projects in the UK like on swimming pools

0:57:00 > 0:57:03or parks is estimated to have dropped from £3 billion annually

0:57:03 > 0:57:13to £600 million annually.

0:57:13 > 0:57:15So how does civic crowdfunding dove tail with the services

0:57:15 > 0:57:18councils must provide within these constrained budgets?

0:57:18 > 0:57:20Councils across the country have been hit hard by austerity.

0:57:20 > 0:57:22That definitely means that some services pull-back,

0:57:22 > 0:57:24but this is actually a really good example of something optimistic

0:57:24 > 0:57:27and fresh that happening, something we are keen to support.

0:57:27 > 0:57:29For me, crowdfunding is really something that should happen

0:57:29 > 0:57:32in addition to what councils already do, and in a way

0:57:32 > 0:57:34which is complementary.

0:57:34 > 0:57:36Spacehive, the London-based website which is working

0:57:36 > 0:57:38with councils and the mayor, claims to be the world's first

0:57:38 > 0:57:45crowdfunding platform dedicated to civic projects.

0:57:45 > 0:57:48There's actually a very small number of people who feel

0:57:48 > 0:57:50that they have the opportunity to shape their local area.

0:57:50 > 0:57:52Civic crowdfunding opens the space up.

0:57:52 > 0:57:55It does allow more people to come forward with ideas and to support

0:57:55 > 0:57:56them if they wish to do so.

0:57:56 > 0:57:59And it's in that spirit that local authorities are embracing this.

0:57:59 > 0:58:02A lot of people come in thinking, isn't it exciting that we can

0:58:02 > 0:58:04mobilise different sources of funding for this sort of stuff?

0:58:04 > 0:58:08But they are really attracted at the end of the day by the social

0:58:08 > 0:58:09value that this brings, the way it empowers communities.

0:58:09 > 0:58:1125 councils in London have Spacehive accounts,

0:58:11 > 0:58:15of which 16 have pledged money to crowd funded project.

0:58:15 > 0:58:18So far 226 projects in the capital have raised £5.2 million

0:58:18 > 0:58:24through that one website alone, and that figure is expected to rise

0:58:24 > 0:58:27to £23 million by 2020.

0:58:27 > 0:58:29But the civic crowdfunding phenomenon has raised

0:58:29 > 0:58:34concerns in some quarters.

0:58:34 > 0:58:38If crowdfunding starts to be normalised, actually it starts

0:58:38 > 0:58:42to shift what we expect the council to provide, and actually in the US

0:58:42 > 0:58:45they do crowdfund the maintenance of pavements or sidewalks,

0:58:45 > 0:58:50so it shows you in what direction this could start to go.

0:58:50 > 0:58:53I'm also worried about the democratic aspect of all of this.

0:58:53 > 0:58:57In order to fund services you have to have the money

0:58:57 > 0:59:05in which to fund them, and for people who don't have extra

0:59:05 > 0:59:07income to fund services, they're not having a voice either.

0:59:07 > 0:59:09So does civic crowdfunding make it easier for people

0:59:09 > 0:59:12to improve their communities, or let local authorities

0:59:12 > 0:59:13and the Government off the hook?

0:59:13 > 0:59:15MUSIC: I Need A Dollar by Aloe Blacc

0:59:15 > 0:59:24Rosena, should crowdfunding be used to fund what

0:59:24 > 0:59:25are statutory requirements for council to supply, like libraries,

0:59:25 > 0:59:27for example?

0:59:27 > 0:59:32I think councils are finding themselves in such difficult

0:59:32 > 0:59:34circumstances with the amount their budgets have been cut that

0:59:34 > 0:59:37they are faced with choices that quite frankly aren't really a

0:59:37 > 0:59:39choice, such as funding social care, funding rape crisis centres or

0:59:39 > 0:59:40keeping a library open.

0:59:40 > 0:59:42They're not able to do all of them.

0:59:42 > 0:59:46It's not really a choice.

0:59:46 > 0:59:47They're having to close libraries, and community-led

0:59:47 > 0:59:51initiatives are sprouting up more and more, and I think it's a really

0:59:51 > 0:59:53good idea and I welcome what the mayor's doing supporting local

0:59:53 > 0:59:56good idea and I welcome what the mayor's doing supporting local

0:59:56 > 0:59:57council.

0:59:57 > 0:59:59Is that how you see crowdfunding being used, the

0:59:59 > 1:00:02actually plug a gap because of a lack of funding at local authority

1:00:02 > 1:00:03level?

1:00:03 > 1:00:06Well, let's be clear about this.

1:00:06 > 1:00:09This is an amazing new way of raising funds, to provide

1:00:09 > 1:00:12for local community projects.

1:00:12 > 1:00:15People want to give money to good causes, whether

1:00:15 > 1:00:17its charitable causes, local community centres.

1:00:17 > 1:00:19Even small businesses can use crowdfunding as a

1:00:19 > 1:00:22way of bringing in extra revenue, so I think overall it's a very good

1:00:22 > 1:00:23thing.

1:00:23 > 1:00:25I do take the point that councils have certain

1:00:25 > 1:00:28responsibilities, and it's no good councils just avoiding having to do

1:00:28 > 1:00:30things themselves and it being replaced by crowdfunding, but it

1:00:30 > 1:00:33can certainly be an addition to what councils are doing.

1:00:33 > 1:00:35Right, so in other words you don't think it

1:00:35 > 1:00:37should be used for those sort of critical -

1:00:37 > 1:00:39so it shouldn't be letting councils off the hook?

1:00:39 > 1:00:42No, where there are gaps and where the

1:00:42 > 1:00:44councils can't do things, and let's be honest about this.

1:00:44 > 1:00:46We are living in a different world today.

1:00:46 > 1:00:49You don't have endless amounts of money to spend on things.

1:00:49 > 1:00:51If crowdfunding can actually be used to secure local facilities,

1:00:51 > 1:00:54then it's a jolly good idea and we should encourage it.

1:00:54 > 1:00:57But I've looked at the website of the company that was in the film,

1:00:57 > 1:00:59and they are doing things like Good Food, Catford,

1:00:59 > 1:01:01Southall Light Show.

1:01:01 > 1:01:04These are adding value, if you like, but are they critically important

1:01:04 > 1:01:08to local communities, or are these the sort of,

1:01:08 > 1:01:11if you like, things round the edges when there are other more critical

1:01:11 > 1:01:14issues that could be dealt with?

1:01:14 > 1:01:20Look, by 2020 councils are going to have £16 billion less,

1:01:20 > 1:01:23and we need to make sure that councils are able to provide

1:01:23 > 1:01:24the critical services.

1:01:24 > 1:01:27Would I like us to have to be in this position?

1:01:27 > 1:01:28Of course not.

1:01:28 > 1:01:29Why are we here?

1:01:29 > 1:01:31It's because of a lack of Government funding.

1:01:31 > 1:01:37But we are here, and I actually applaud

1:01:37 > 1:01:40communities saying, we want community spaces,

1:01:40 > 1:01:42we want to have community led initiatives that we support.

1:01:42 > 1:01:44And I think it's a good idea.

1:01:44 > 1:01:45Is that because councils' funding has been

1:01:45 > 1:01:47cut to the bone by your Government?

1:01:47 > 1:01:50It's because the Government that we have today inherited one

1:01:50 > 1:01:52huge deficit, and a massive debt which we are trying to get

1:01:52 > 1:01:56on top of - you know, the country is still in the red.

1:01:56 > 1:01:59And so, so many things have to be reduced in what we spend to try

1:01:59 > 1:02:02and get the economy in the right shape so that we can be

1:02:02 > 1:02:03prosperous in the future.

1:02:03 > 1:02:05You can't live off borrowed money forever.

1:02:05 > 1:02:09I know we may have different views on this, but I honestly think

1:02:09 > 1:02:12there is no bad thing in getting the community to assist in raising

1:02:12 > 1:02:16money for good projects that the local people want.

1:02:16 > 1:02:19So it should be a partnership, really, between local councils,

1:02:19 > 1:02:22charities and the community at large.

1:02:22 > 1:02:30Isn't Labour just embracing the idea of the big society,

1:02:30 > 1:02:32which was David Cameron, the former Conservative Prime

1:02:32 > 1:02:33Minister's big idea?

1:02:33 > 1:02:34Not really.

1:02:34 > 1:02:37I think what it's doing is actually embracing where we

1:02:37 > 1:02:39are, saying austerity isn't working, but we're fighting back.

1:02:39 > 1:02:40It's about Labour saying that actually people

1:02:40 > 1:02:44don't want to see their libraries closed.

1:02:44 > 1:02:47They want to have facilities for their children, they want there

1:02:47 > 1:02:51to be no socio-economic divide, so they are taking leadership.

1:02:51 > 1:02:53Right, but I mean being involved in the

1:02:53 > 1:02:55Furzedown oak sculpture trail isn't about combating austerity, is it?

1:02:55 > 1:02:58That is a sort of middle-class pursuit, if you like, in your

1:02:58 > 1:02:59constituency?

1:02:59 > 1:03:00But that wasn't successful.

1:03:00 > 1:03:03So it wasn't able to raise the amount of money it needed,

1:03:03 > 1:03:04so it didn't go ahead.

1:03:04 > 1:03:05That's the point.

1:03:05 > 1:03:07It's free choice.

1:03:07 > 1:03:08So people can choose what projects they want

1:03:08 > 1:03:10to support.

1:03:10 > 1:03:13All right, and at that point we have to end it there.

1:03:13 > 1:03:14My thanks to Rosena and Andrew, and with that it's back to Sarah.

1:03:15 > 1:03:17It's been a tricky week for Theresa May -

1:03:17 > 1:03:18again, you might think.

1:03:18 > 1:03:21She's lost a Cabinet minister and been forced into a reshuffle

1:03:21 > 1:03:24which did little for party unity, to say nothing of losing a Commons

1:03:24 > 1:03:27vote on Brexit and yet more reports of fireworks in Cabinet meetings -

1:03:27 > 1:03:28this time apparently over housing.

1:03:28 > 1:03:31So, is the Prime Minister's time in office going with a bang

1:03:31 > 1:03:32or more of a whimper?

1:03:32 > 1:03:33Well, we sent Ellie Price

1:03:33 > 1:03:35and the entirely unscientific Sunday Politics moodbox

1:03:35 > 1:03:38to Conservative-held Surrey, to find out.

1:03:38 > 1:03:41ALL:Three, two, one.

1:03:41 > 1:03:47# Ignite the light and let it shine...#

1:03:47 > 1:03:51It's a tale of lit fuses, plots, conspiracy, treachery,

1:03:51 > 1:03:54but enough of the recent goings on in the Conservative Party,

1:03:54 > 1:03:58it's firework night here in Guildford and we're asking,

1:03:58 > 1:04:01does Theresa May have control of her Government and her party?

1:04:01 > 1:04:01Yes or no?

1:04:01 > 1:04:07# Baby you're a firework...#

1:04:07 > 1:04:10With all the scandals in Government at the moment

1:04:10 > 1:04:13and Brexit seems to be dragging on a little bit longer than we thought.

1:04:13 > 1:04:17So, at the moment, I don't think she is in control.

1:04:19 > 1:04:22She's too many people sniping at her back, really.

1:04:22 > 1:04:24Do you think Theresa May's in control?

1:04:24 > 1:04:26I think she's in control.

1:04:26 > 1:04:28She's in a good job having a tough time.

1:04:28 > 1:04:29No, I don't.

1:04:29 > 1:04:30I think she's a mess.

1:04:30 > 1:04:33Even when you read her body language when she's being interviewed

1:04:33 > 1:04:35by people, she doesn't seem like she's in control.

1:04:35 > 1:04:40I think she has poor advisers.

1:04:42 > 1:04:45I'm going to put it in the "yes".

1:04:45 > 1:04:49I do think she's struggling but, I still hope, still think she has

1:04:49 > 1:04:52a bit of a grip on them.

1:04:52 > 1:04:54The Queen is England's role.

1:04:54 > 1:04:56It's her birth right.

1:04:56 > 1:05:00She is England's role of this country.

1:05:00 > 1:05:02I'm going to vote for Theresa May.

1:05:02 > 1:05:06I don't think there's anyone who could do a better job.

1:05:06 > 1:05:09I think she's had a bit of a poisoned chalice with Brexit but

1:05:09 > 1:05:11I think she could have done better.

1:05:11 > 1:05:13The money's not going to where it needs to go.

1:05:13 > 1:05:15I think she should resign, really.

1:05:15 > 1:05:17I feel a bit sorry for her, actually.

1:05:17 > 1:05:19I think she's been witch-hunted a little bit.

1:05:19 > 1:05:23She's doing her best.

1:05:23 > 1:05:25With everything that's going on with the Cabinet at the

1:05:25 > 1:05:28moment, I think the Conservative Party is in a real mess, actually.

1:05:28 > 1:05:31Very disappointed.

1:05:31 > 1:05:36Well, you get bickering in all parts not just the Conservative Party.

1:05:36 > 1:05:39And that's just sort of par for the course.

1:05:39 > 1:05:41But I'm sure she'll hold everybody together

1:05:41 > 1:05:44despite the current difficulties.

1:05:44 > 1:05:46The Tories weren't in control when they had the referendum

1:05:46 > 1:05:48in the first place for the euro.

1:05:48 > 1:05:51We've had two years of complete chaos.

1:05:51 > 1:05:54I don't see an end to it.

1:05:54 > 1:05:57Well, I seem to have acquired a few new friends.

1:05:57 > 1:06:00The oohs and ahs are over and so the moodbox

1:06:00 > 1:06:04and the result is...

1:06:04 > 1:06:05No.

1:06:05 > 1:06:06The majority of people here in Guildford

1:06:06 > 1:06:09don't think Theresa May is in control.

1:06:09 > 1:06:13CHEERING

1:06:13 > 1:06:16That was Ellie with the entirely unscientific moodbox, and thanks

1:06:16 > 1:06:22to Bushy Hill Junior School in Guildford for having her along.

1:06:22 > 1:06:27Let's put the Sorbol question to our panel. Equally unscientific but all

1:06:27 > 1:06:30seasoned Westminster watchers. Is Theresa May in control of her

1:06:30 > 1:06:35Government at the moment or is all of this sex harassment allegations

1:06:35 > 1:06:39swimming around loosening her grip? Depends what you mean by in control.

1:06:39 > 1:06:46All Prime Ministers have a degree of control. They retain the power much

1:06:46 > 1:06:50tat wrongage as we saw with her reshuffle. Didn't go down well with

1:06:50 > 1:06:56her MPs but she did it. You can't be fully in control of these situations

1:06:56 > 1:06:59in effectively what is a hung Parliament. If she won a land sheep

1:06:59 > 1:07:02in the election she would have the authority to do what she wanted. She

1:07:02 > 1:07:07could float over something like this. Stories like this, you could

1:07:07 > 1:07:10say she's perfectly suited for it, the vicar's daughter, the church

1:07:10 > 1:07:14goer, to sort it out. It is much more complicated than that. I don't

1:07:14 > 1:07:18think she will be able to get a full grip of it. There are some practical

1:07:18 > 1:07:23things that need to happen that will happen. I remember with back to

1:07:23 > 1:07:27basics and John Major, that equally vague scandal, what was back to

1:07:27 > 1:07:32basics about? It was still running months afterwards, stories about a

1:07:32 > 1:07:36minister having an affair. This is different. I can see it will be

1:07:36 > 1:07:40impossible for her to fully get to grips with it.Does it provide an

1:07:40 > 1:07:44opportunity for Theresa May to be seen to be taking really serious

1:07:44 > 1:07:47action, trying to root out a bad culture in Westminster and therefore

1:07:47 > 1:07:51get some political credit for it? That opportunity was available to

1:07:51 > 1:07:57her all of last week and she hasn't taken it. What's remarkable for me

1:07:57 > 1:08:00is the near complete breakdown in discipline in the higher ranks the

1:08:00 > 1:08:05Tory Party. It is extraordinary you have Cabinet level ministers who are

1:08:05 > 1:08:09not supporting their colleagues. Ministers and former ministers

1:08:09 > 1:08:13giving interviews in which they slag off their former colleagues. It is

1:08:13 > 1:08:17an absolute unholy mess. There is no sense that she is gripping this. Or

1:08:17 > 1:08:21has any particular solution. I think we can have a lot of sympathy for

1:08:21 > 1:08:25her in terms of finding a solution. How on earth do you grip a problem

1:08:25 > 1:08:33like this where you're talking about apparently an indefinite period of

1:08:33 > 1:08:37retrospective examination of potential faults. 15 years is no

1:08:37 > 1:08:40longer too historic for somebody to dredge up some small thing that may

1:08:40 > 1:08:44or may not have happened to them. It is very difficult for her. But she's

1:08:44 > 1:08:51being battered around by events. Where does this story go next?I

1:08:51 > 1:08:55think the whip's office on every party, Tories, Labour, Liberal

1:08:55 > 1:08:58Democrats, SNP all have their own whipping operations. That seems to

1:08:58 > 1:09:04be the place of it really. This is because, where do we draw the line?

1:09:04 > 1:09:07Going forward what mechanisms are put in place to top this helping

1:09:07 > 1:09:11again. To take allegations seriously, report them and

1:09:11 > 1:09:16investigate them independently. Or is there a bigger job to go back

1:09:16 > 1:09:21into the past retrospective, who knew what when as Nia said about

1:09:21 > 1:09:26Kelvin Hopkins. This is a Shadow Defence Secretary saying what did

1:09:26 > 1:09:30the Labour Party leader know about Kelvin Hopkins' allegations when he

1:09:30 > 1:09:35promoted him? Theresa May is unable to do the retrospective bit. She's

1:09:35 > 1:09:40simply too weak. I asked this of Number Ten last week. Why are you

1:09:40 > 1:09:43not more front-foot the on this. They said they would be if they

1:09:43 > 1:09:47possibly could be. She's running a minority Government. She cannot be

1:09:47 > 1:09:52seen to be going after a witch-hunt on her own people. So, I think this

1:09:52 > 1:10:01goes on. Enof thebly what the whips new -- inevitably what the whips

1:10:01 > 1:10:10knew will be parment. Amber Rudd did the same thing on Andrew Marr.They

1:10:10 > 1:10:15are being precise about the fact they didn't know anything. Sarah

1:10:15 > 1:10:19Newton said she heard no allegations about her flock, the the MPs she was

1:10:19 > 1:10:26in charge of rather than rumours about any other Tories.Amber Rudd

1:10:26 > 1:10:31say, I do not recognise the more lurid allegations. What about the

1:10:31 > 1:10:35less lurid once? So, this smells very, very bad indeed.Jeremy

1:10:35 > 1:10:41Corbyn's going to have to answer some of these questions as well?

1:10:41 > 1:10:46Yeah, but the whip's thing is a red herring. Their remit is to get the

1:10:46 > 1:10:48vote out for the Government fundamentally. Everybody knows that.

1:10:48 > 1:10:52They are not there, it is one of the problems. They are not there to be

1:10:52 > 1:10:57moral guides to these MPs. They are there to win votes for the

1:10:57 > 1:11:01Government or the opposition if that becomes possible. And deal brutally

1:11:01 > 1:11:05with MPs to make sure they get out and vote. Of course they knew

1:11:05 > 1:11:10virtually everything. But whether they were obliged to act as moral

1:11:10 > 1:11:13guard yawns in these situations, I don't think they were. It was not

1:11:13 > 1:11:18part of their job. Maybe you need moral guardians in there but not the

1:11:18 > 1:11:22whips.Normally, less than three-weeks out from a budget that's

1:11:22 > 1:11:25what we'd been talking about. Dominating our conversation. Given

1:11:25 > 1:11:28that's set for November 22nd, is that an opportunity for the

1:11:28 > 1:11:33Government to seize back control of the story?Philip Hammond may be

1:11:33 > 1:11:37glad we're not spending too much time talking about the budget. It

1:11:37 > 1:11:41should be an opportunity for the Government to seize the agenda, draw

1:11:41 > 1:11:45a line under all of this. I think one of the very difficult as pects

1:11:45 > 1:11:49of this so-called scandal for the Government to manage is knowing

1:11:49 > 1:11:53quite how long it will run. In the normal scheme of things they lose

1:11:53 > 1:11:57steam after a couple of weeks. But there are so many potential gayses

1:11:57 > 1:12:02that could come out, it might run longer than that. Rather like the

1:12:02 > 1:12:05expenses scandal. But there is an opportunity at the budget to reset

1:12:05 > 1:12:10the' again da. I just don't think Philip Hammond will take it. I think

1:12:10 > 1:12:14he's a very caution Chancellor. At the moment, there is a feeling

1:12:14 > 1:12:19Theresa May's leadership is so weak it will be too dangerous for them to

1:12:19 > 1:12:24do anything particularly dram attic why. I expect a steady as you go

1:12:24 > 1:12:28budget where they will be hoping not to make any mistakes.You say there

1:12:28 > 1:12:34is disagreement in the Cabinet about what should be in the budget?

1:12:34 > 1:12:40Disagreement between the Chancellor and the Prime Minister. The

1:12:40 > 1:12:44witch-hunt is hiding a huge story which is the incredible dysfunction

1:12:44 > 1:12:48between Number Ten and number 11. Philip Hammond and Theresa May can't

1:12:48 > 1:12:52bear to be in the same room with each other let alone agreeing what's

1:12:52 > 1:12:56in the budget. It is coming down to housing. Everybody agrees it has to

1:12:56 > 1:13:02be the centrepiece of the budget. They have to get more houses built.

1:13:02 > 1:13:07Philip Hammond wands that bee deregulation. Theresa May wants to

1:13:07 > 1:13:10are borrow up to 50 billion merchandise more for the Government

1:13:10 > 1:13:12to build for themselves.

1:13:12 > 1:13:13That's all for today.

1:13:13 > 1:13:15There's no Sunday Politics next weekend

1:13:15 > 1:13:17while Parliament is in recess,

1:13:17 > 1:13:20but I'll be back here at 11am on BBC One in two weeks' time.

1:13:20 > 1:13:24Until then, bye bye.