26/11/2017

0:00:38 > 0:00:39Morning everyone and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

0:00:39 > 0:00:42I'm Sarah Smith.

0:00:42 > 0:00:45And this is your essential briefing on everything that's

0:00:45 > 0:00:48happening this Sunday morning in the world of politics.

0:00:48 > 0:00:50Ireland says it will "continue to play tough until the end"

0:00:50 > 0:00:52over the Irish border.

0:00:52 > 0:00:54As Dublin threatens to derail Brexit trade

0:00:54 > 0:00:57talks, vice-president of the European Parliament Mairead

0:00:57 > 0:01:01McGuiness tells us why she thinks a hard border would cause havoc.

0:01:01 > 0:01:03Leading Brexiteer and former Northern Ireland Secretary Owen

0:01:03 > 0:01:07Paterson will debate with her live.

0:01:07 > 0:01:10It was billed as a make or break moment for the Chancellor -

0:01:10 > 0:01:12Phillip Hammond appears to have avoided an omni or even

0:01:12 > 0:01:14a mini-shambles.

0:01:14 > 0:01:17We'll get Budget reaction from the man who last month tried

0:01:17 > 0:01:20to topple Theresa May - former Tory Chairman, Grant Shapps.

0:01:21 > 0:01:27And what did the Chancellor do for the North?

0:01:27 > 0:01:30How affects it was Labour's response?

0:01:30 > 0:01:32I'll be talking to the Mayor of Greater Manchester,

0:01:32 > 0:01:33Labour's Andy Burnham.

0:01:33 > 0:01:36In London, with domestic violence on the rise would a mandatory

0:01:36 > 0:01:38register for offenders help protect women from abusive partners?

0:01:46 > 0:01:48All that coming up in the programme.

0:01:48 > 0:01:51So, no omni-shambles Budget.

0:01:51 > 0:01:54But don't worry, if you're a fan of the shambolic you'll

0:01:54 > 0:01:56love our political panel, Sam Coates, Zoe Williams

0:01:56 > 0:01:58and Iain Martin.

0:01:58 > 0:02:00Welcome to the programme.

0:02:00 > 0:02:02It has been the Budget that's dominated the political week.

0:02:02 > 0:02:06There was no pasty tax or national insurance U-turn -

0:02:06 > 0:02:09but there were sharp downgrades for growth and productivity,

0:02:09 > 0:02:13offset by enough optimism to cheer the Tory benches.

0:02:17 > 0:02:22This week's Budget was billed as a make or break for Philip Hammond.

0:02:22 > 0:02:25His last effort in March contained a manifesto-mangling national

0:02:25 > 0:02:28insurance rise which lasted barely a week.

0:02:28 > 0:02:30Humiliated today, Chancellor?

0:02:30 > 0:02:35Will you resign?

0:02:35 > 0:02:37This time, his cheery demeanour was perhaps designed

0:02:37 > 0:02:39to confound his critics who think his outlook on Brexit

0:02:39 > 0:02:43is, well, miserable.

0:02:43 > 0:02:47What he's doing is very close to sabotage.

0:02:47 > 0:02:52Regrettably, our productivity performance continues to disappoint.

0:02:52 > 0:02:54But the downbeat tone wasn't down to Hammond,

0:02:54 > 0:03:00it was the independent Office for Budget Responsibility,

0:03:00 > 0:03:02the lower productivity projections lead to growth forecasts

0:03:02 > 0:03:04of less than 2%.

0:03:04 > 0:03:08Here's the new realistic forecast, average growth of just 1.4% a year.

0:03:08 > 0:03:12A slowdown that won't go away.

0:03:14 > 0:03:17The Chancellor may not have been able to drive up

0:03:17 > 0:03:19productivity and growth, but he has a cunning plan to remove

0:03:19 > 0:03:22the need to drive at all.

0:03:22 > 0:03:25David Cameron's old mate Jeremy Clarkson is reported to be

0:03:25 > 0:03:26less than impressed.

0:03:26 > 0:03:28Jeremy Clarkson doesn't like them.

0:03:28 > 0:03:33But there are many other good reasons to pursue this technology.

0:03:33 > 0:03:39So today we step up our support for it.

0:03:39 > 0:03:42Sorry, Jeremy, but definitely not the first time you've been

0:03:42 > 0:03:44snubbed by Hammond and May.

0:03:44 > 0:03:46More money for the English health service, a Brexit fund

0:03:46 > 0:03:48and abolishing stamp duty for first-time buyers

0:03:48 > 0:03:49lifted the mood.

0:03:49 > 0:03:53I commend this statement to the house.

0:03:58 > 0:04:01But senior figures in the NHS said the new money was not enough

0:04:01 > 0:04:04and less, in this Budget at least, than the amount pledged for Brexit,

0:04:04 > 0:04:07giving some Remainers plenty of fun on Twitter.

0:04:09 > 0:04:12It turned out the stamp duty changes would mainly help

0:04:12 > 0:04:15people selling a house, not buying them.

0:04:15 > 0:04:19Tweaks to the Universal Credit system soothed Tory concerns,

0:04:19 > 0:04:21but they didn't calm the Labour leader.

0:04:21 > 0:04:23Uncaring!

0:04:23 > 0:04:27The uncaring, uncooth attitude of certain members opposite!

0:04:28 > 0:04:29Order!

0:04:30 > 0:04:30Order!

0:04:32 > 0:04:35And his Shadow Chancellor had some number trouble.

0:04:35 > 0:04:39How much do we now spend on paying the interest of our national debt.

0:04:39 > 0:04:40A lot.

0:04:40 > 0:04:41How much?

0:04:41 > 0:04:43Well, I'll give you the figure.

0:04:43 > 0:04:45I'll send you a note on the figure.

0:04:45 > 0:04:46You don't know?

0:04:46 > 0:04:47I know the figure...

0:04:47 > 0:04:48How much?

0:04:48 > 0:04:49I'll send it.

0:04:49 > 0:04:51Well, you tell me now.

0:04:51 > 0:04:54The forecast may be sticky, but at least the Daily Mail

0:04:54 > 0:04:55had a positive outlook.

0:04:55 > 0:04:59Phil was no longer a miserable donkey.

0:04:59 > 0:05:02And by the end of the week, the Chancellor could still smile.

0:05:02 > 0:05:04He might even stay in Number 11 long enough to deliver

0:05:04 > 0:05:08next year's Budget.

0:05:09 > 0:05:11We're joined now by the former Conservative Party

0:05:11 > 0:05:15Chairman, Grant Shapps.

0:05:15 > 0:05:20Thank you very much for coming in. No banana skin in the Budget for

0:05:20 > 0:05:23Philip Hammond, but really dismal growth prospects. What is the

0:05:23 > 0:05:28government back to doing wrong? Well, first of all, he cheered up

0:05:28 > 0:05:31the backbenches by giving quite an upbeat assessment. The economy is

0:05:31 > 0:05:38still growing, the jobs factory of Europe. Not words we are used to

0:05:38 > 0:05:43hearing from Philip Hammond.But overall, growth prospects are really

0:05:43 > 0:05:49bad, they have been significantly downgraded.Of course, the really

0:05:49 > 0:05:52big story is the Office for Budget Responsibility say we are going to

0:05:52 > 0:05:56grow at 1.5%, not 2%. That is a real problem. I thought Philip's

0:05:56 > 0:05:59presentation of the issue was interesting. He said this is of the

0:05:59 > 0:06:03outside of our control, it is the office of Budget response ability.

0:06:03 > 0:06:07It is to do with productivity, who knows what that is made up of? That

0:06:07 > 0:06:11sort of excuses get mug from having to do anything. There are things we

0:06:11 > 0:06:15can do to attract business to this country. You have the tax base, the

0:06:15 > 0:06:20attitude towards business. We spent quite a while looking like we were

0:06:20 > 0:06:25not interested in business, business being thought of as bad. I am

0:06:25 > 0:06:29pleased to see that is changing.You think the few has a pro-business

0:06:29 > 0:06:33attitude that wasn't there a year ago?We have them locked out of

0:06:33 > 0:06:37Downing Street for a while, sector leaders could not express their

0:06:37 > 0:06:42concerns. Some conference speeches that business as the bad guys rather

0:06:42 > 0:06:47than job creators. That seems to have gone and I welcome it.Why?

0:06:47 > 0:06:50Because it is not realistic to believe that business is evil and

0:06:50 > 0:06:58bad. Business people that create the jobs for this country, the well for

0:06:58 > 0:07:00this country...But why do you think the government but robust change the

0:07:00 > 0:07:08message on that?It is hard to know what created that. Since the

0:07:08 > 0:07:10election we have a change in emphasis. Business leaders are now

0:07:10 > 0:07:13welcomed to come and talk to the Prime Minister and the Chancellor

0:07:13 > 0:07:17about what is going on. One thing we could do now, we are leaving Europe,

0:07:17 > 0:07:20we had all of those red tape challenges in the Coalition

0:07:20 > 0:07:23Government but we always got stuck when it got to the EU. We had to

0:07:23 > 0:07:27say, we can't do anything about that red tape. We can now go back on

0:07:27 > 0:07:31that. I would like the cupboard to go further and not just accept

0:07:31 > 0:07:33figures from the Office for Budget Responsibility. I'm actually

0:07:33 > 0:07:38doubtful about that and I think that Philip Hammond is as well. Growth of

0:07:38 > 0:07:46productivity is a difficult thing to measure. This country trades more

0:07:46 > 0:07:49online than any other country in the world. We are top of that league

0:07:49 > 0:07:52table. That has to be a more efficient way to do business. Yet it

0:07:52 > 0:07:57does not seem to be reflected in productivity.They are forecasts,

0:07:57 > 0:08:02the productivity figures. But the middle, things could be worse, the

0:08:02 > 0:08:08OBR say. The... Seems to say these are the projections, we hope it

0:08:08 > 0:08:14isn't that. Is it the Buttler's job to do something about productivity?

0:08:14 > 0:08:20The government EU has a role to play. I started a printing business

0:08:20 > 0:08:24which still exists to this day. Uncertainty over Brexit could lead a

0:08:24 > 0:08:28business like that to delay purchasing a new press. One that is

0:08:28 > 0:08:33likely to be faster, less setup time, print stuff faster.

0:08:33 > 0:08:37Uncertainty in the economy slows that down. Of course the Government

0:08:37 > 0:08:45has a role. It cannot act the way it treats taxation, investment, it can

0:08:45 > 0:08:48encourage businesses. Actually, I suspect what the Office for Budget

0:08:48 > 0:08:52Responsibility has done is said, oh, all of this uncertainty has lead to

0:08:52 > 0:08:56slower productivity and therefore we will continue projecting forward,

0:08:56 > 0:09:02almost ad infinitum. The projections went up five years. If we can get

0:09:02 > 0:09:06the Brexit uncertainty out of the way...That is what I was about to

0:09:06 > 0:09:10say. The great uncertainty is under Brexit. We are not entering a period

0:09:10 > 0:09:13where things will be more certain people can confidently make

0:09:13 > 0:09:16investment decisions, nobody knows what the future trading relationship

0:09:16 > 0:09:21will be.I think Government can help with that. If you have a Government

0:09:21 > 0:09:25that, at its heart, fundamentally, is singing from the same hymn sheet,

0:09:25 > 0:09:29you saw Number 10 and Number 11, finally, a bit of banter between the

0:09:29 > 0:09:39two of them, the Chancellor and the Prime Minister, they went out on

0:09:39 > 0:09:42Thursday and did a visit together. You have a Cabinet meeting reported

0:09:42 > 0:09:44from Tuesday where they are agreeing how to go forward collectively on

0:09:44 > 0:09:47Europe. If you can have the central government working in unison, it

0:09:47 > 0:09:49gives business of evidence, it gives the economy confidence that maybe

0:09:49 > 0:09:53you can get to faster growth by having better productivity and more

0:09:53 > 0:09:57inward investment.Six weeks ago you were calling for the Prime Minister

0:09:57 > 0:10:02to stand down. You were outed as leading a coup against her. Have you

0:10:02 > 0:10:06changed your mind?I saw your lead-in, calling colleagues that

0:10:06 > 0:10:09want to go and speak to the Prime Minister about a perfectly sensible

0:10:09 > 0:10:13subject that she herself has asked for colleagues' opinions on, how

0:10:13 > 0:10:18long should I be in this role, to call it a plot is tabloid. The

0:10:18 > 0:10:21reality is, of course colleagues should be able to have that

0:10:21 > 0:10:24conversation. We do not live in North Korea. We shouldn't be not

0:10:24 > 0:10:27allowed to express views, nor do they disappear if you don't express

0:10:27 > 0:10:31them.You said your colleagues have buried their heads in the sand,

0:10:31 > 0:10:36hoping things would get better. It never got better for Gordon Brown or

0:10:36 > 0:10:41John Major, it will not get that for Theresa May. Have you changed your

0:10:41 > 0:10:45mindI think that colleagues should be allowed to have views and express

0:10:45 > 0:10:50them. My views have not changed. However, I also accept the reality

0:10:50 > 0:10:55of the situation, that we are in a very sensitive period with Brexit

0:10:55 > 0:11:00negotiations. Six weeks ago is six weeks ago. Time moves on and Brexit

0:11:00 > 0:11:05negotiations wait 101. What we have to do have is a Government that is

0:11:05 > 0:11:12capable of singing from the same hymn sheet, going to Brussels. If

0:11:12 > 0:11:17you have Number 10 and Number 11 at each other's throats, when you have

0:11:17 > 0:11:24people been briefed against the centre, whips that are more

0:11:24 > 0:11:26interested in... We have mutineers on the front of the Telegraph, 50

0:11:26 > 0:11:30people that wanted not to have the date for Brexit in the bill. I don't

0:11:30 > 0:11:36happen to agree with those people. But to have colleagues accused of

0:11:36 > 0:11:39being mutineers because they have a slightly diverted the view is

0:11:39 > 0:11:47ridiculous. -- diverted view. I am pleased what we are seeing now is an

0:11:47 > 0:11:53attitude from the centre saying let's work together, let's not

0:11:53 > 0:11:56briefed against others, let's get on and stop the country from the even

0:11:56 > 0:12:00bigger danger than Brexit, a Jeremy Corbyn government.Stay there for a

0:12:00 > 0:12:07moment. I am going to bring in the panel. You were listening to that

0:12:07 > 0:12:14interview. A change in mood towards the Prime Minister?Haven't seems to

0:12:14 > 0:12:18have cheered up a lot. He seemed to me like a man giving his own leaving

0:12:18 > 0:12:26speech. There was a devil may care attitude aspect, not really backed

0:12:26 > 0:12:30up by what you're saying. They wanted always. There would be OBR

0:12:30 > 0:12:33figures to be nothing to do with a Government. Unfortunately they have

0:12:33 > 0:12:38revised down, there is nothing we can really do. At the same time,

0:12:38 > 0:12:43they wanted to show Conservative policies are capable of driving

0:12:43 > 0:12:47growth. They want to say, unfortunately it is not a generous

0:12:47 > 0:12:50Budget because growth figures are revised downwards, while at the same

0:12:50 > 0:12:54time saying that the OBR is often wrong, who knows if it will be

0:12:54 > 0:13:01correct. I don't think you get any clear analysis from this.Cake and

0:13:01 > 0:13:10eat it?The significance is not really economic, it is political. If

0:13:10 > 0:13:14you go back a week, it seemed possible, likely even, that the

0:13:14 > 0:13:20Chancellor was going to be replaced in a reshuffle expected between now

0:13:20 > 0:13:27and Christmas. He has saved his job. His critics in other parties will

0:13:27 > 0:13:31say, well, his job should be about more than his own personal survival.

0:13:31 > 0:13:37But it alters the dynamics. It means that the government but was not

0:13:37 > 0:13:43quite Chancellor, it means a reshuffle could be less substantial

0:13:43 > 0:13:47than might have been the case. It seems the Tories have had a shocking

0:13:47 > 0:13:53run over the last few months. They were rather buoyed up by it. Not

0:13:53 > 0:13:57that it was a massive success as a Budget, it was just OK. That counts

0:13:57 > 0:14:00for quite a lot at the moment. Listening to what Grant Shapps was

0:14:00 > 0:14:05telling us, it sounds like Theresa May's job is safe as well?I would

0:14:05 > 0:14:10if she is sitting in Downing Street wearing a badge saying Philip

0:14:10 > 0:14:16Hammond saved my job? The point is, just to pull out the camera, the

0:14:16 > 0:14:19fundamentals have not changed. The Conservatives did not win an overall

0:14:19 > 0:14:22majority at the election, they still have to deliver Brexit in an

0:14:22 > 0:14:29incredibly complicated process, that looks intractable with negotiation

0:14:29 > 0:14:31difficulties, particularly with Ireland, but also bringing the

0:14:31 > 0:14:35Cabinet together over some of these incredibly thorny issues about where

0:14:35 > 0:14:45Brexit is going to end up. Although Grant is putting a positive gloss on

0:14:45 > 0:14:47it now, the conference after which he was adjusted people might

0:14:47 > 0:14:53consider her going -- after which he suggested people might consider her

0:14:53 > 0:14:56going, things have not really changed. He says his view has not

0:14:56 > 0:15:01really changed, and I think that many of the people that Grant talks

0:15:01 > 0:15:05to, they have not changed their fundamental view about the talents

0:15:05 > 0:15:08and otherwise of Theresa May. I wonder how many people think what

0:15:08 > 0:15:12Grant thinks at the moment?We will come back to you and ask you that.

0:15:12 > 0:15:16How many people agree with you? Do you still have the same view about

0:15:16 > 0:15:20the Prime Minister?I have said exactly what I think. You don't have

0:15:20 > 0:15:24to second-guess what I think about all of this. Nor do I think it is

0:15:24 > 0:15:30worth day by day giving a running commentary on that. I was heartened

0:15:30 > 0:15:34to see Number 10 and number 11 working together. We can make some

0:15:34 > 0:15:38progress. I think that is a very good thing. The lesson to be

0:15:38 > 0:15:41learned, just because people have diverse views, it has not been there

0:15:41 > 0:15:45should be vilified. I think we were in danger of doing that through the

0:15:45 > 0:15:48whips or Number 10, or what have you. I'm pleased to see we have a

0:15:48 > 0:15:54more mature attitude coming from Downing Street.

0:15:54 > 0:15:58You once said you thought you would make a good Prime Minister yourself,

0:15:58 > 0:16:02do you still think that?The question was do you have the

0:16:02 > 0:16:06required ability to make these decisions and the rest of it. To

0:16:06 > 0:16:10answer that question would be as if to say I don't think she should be

0:16:10 > 0:16:15doing it but that's not what I think at all. I think this country

0:16:15 > 0:16:18requires leadership which unites particularly those involved in the

0:16:18 > 0:16:22Government and I'm pleased that's what we are now starting to get.

0:16:22 > 0:16:28Grant Shapps, thanks for coming to talk to us today.

0:16:28 > 0:16:30Now, the Northern Powerhouse was a phrase coined

0:16:30 > 0:16:31by Philip Hammond's predecessor, George Osborne.

0:16:31 > 0:16:33But Theresa May has insisted that she wouldn't be

0:16:33 > 0:16:35pulling the plug on it.

0:16:35 > 0:16:37So how did it fare in this month's Budget?

0:16:37 > 0:16:39Joining us now from Salford is the Mayor

0:16:39 > 0:16:39of Greater Manchester, Andy Burnham.

0:16:39 > 0:16:44Thanks for coming in. I assume you must be very pleased with the Budget

0:16:44 > 0:16:48and the amount of money delivered for the Northern Powerhouse?When I

0:16:48 > 0:16:52came into this job I was clear I would never play politics for the

0:16:52 > 0:16:58sake of it. There was good news in this Budget for Manchester, money

0:16:58 > 0:17:04which we need very much, money to help us tackle rough sleeping.

0:17:04 > 0:17:08Again, a big priority for me. But overall I have to say it is pretty

0:17:08 > 0:17:16thin pickings for the north of England. The headline measure on

0:17:16 > 0:17:18stamp duty massively benefits the South over the north and people here

0:17:18 > 0:17:23who are suffering every day on the rail system, our clapped-out rail

0:17:23 > 0:17:28system, they didn't get any good news in terms of electrification or

0:17:28 > 0:17:37improvement of services. All we got was an -- promise of improvement of

0:17:37 > 0:17:43mobile services.The Government is giving new £12 million to help cover

0:17:43 > 0:17:49the cost relating to the Manchester Arena attack. You must be welcoming

0:17:49 > 0:17:52of that too.This is difficult because I'm conscious whenever this

0:17:52 > 0:17:57issue comes up, I'm conscious of the families. We put our bid in some

0:17:57 > 0:18:03time ago. The cost we have incurred so far is 17 million and we have a

0:18:03 > 0:18:08further 11 million we will incur through the inquest process. We have

0:18:08 > 0:18:11been raising that privately and I haven't gone public on this issue

0:18:11 > 0:18:16until the Prime Minister said last week we would have the answer, and

0:18:16 > 0:18:21we got that on Friday. It falls some way short. I cannot see why the

0:18:21 > 0:18:25Government is not meeting our cost in full. As I said at the beginning,

0:18:25 > 0:18:29I would never make politics out of this issue but when we got our

0:18:29 > 0:18:33answer and it wasn't good enough I had to make our position clear. I

0:18:33 > 0:18:37will be replying to the Prime Minister saying let's sort this out

0:18:37 > 0:18:42properly. I just hope we can now get a full agreement for all of our

0:18:42 > 0:18:46costs from the Government.You've accused the Government before of

0:18:46 > 0:18:51being London centric and ignoring other parts of the UK. Given that

0:18:51 > 0:18:57you have welcomed of the spending measures, do you feel that problem

0:18:57 > 0:19:02has been addressed?Definitely not. The country is London centric. The

0:19:02 > 0:19:07way transport investment is assessed by the Treasury favours the areas

0:19:07 > 0:19:10where there is already greater economic growth. The system is

0:19:10 > 0:19:15biased against the north and that needs to change. In the Budget we

0:19:15 > 0:19:19got a half-hearted commitment to the rail system of the future for the

0:19:19 > 0:19:25north of England but Crossrail 2, the project in London, got more of a

0:19:25 > 0:19:31thumbs up. I'm speaking for people here who feel this has been very

0:19:31 > 0:19:35unfair over decades. We have a transport system here that is

0:19:35 > 0:19:40creaking now and it is completely congested, it isn't working for

0:19:40 > 0:19:44people. The Government needs to grip that problem much more directly. The

0:19:44 > 0:19:48problem I guess with this Budget was there's an elephant in the room and

0:19:48 > 0:19:53that is the Brexit Divorce Bill. There was a feeling for me they were

0:19:53 > 0:19:57not committing money our infrastructure cause of this thing

0:19:57 > 0:20:02looming behind. To have no mention of social care, no mention of police

0:20:02 > 0:20:08funding, these were two gaping holes at the heart of this Budget.Surely

0:20:08 > 0:20:13you think they should be making a generous offer for the Brexit

0:20:13 > 0:20:17divorce settlement? You are not advocating that we walk away without

0:20:17 > 0:20:24paying our dues?No, my point was a different one. It looks like the

0:20:24 > 0:20:27Government is holding back on the investment the north of England

0:20:27 > 0:20:32needs until they have settled this question, but the challenges facing

0:20:32 > 0:20:35our public services and the productivity challenge facing the

0:20:35 > 0:20:39north is urgent and it is critical we get that investment so we can

0:20:39 > 0:20:44rise to the challenge of exit. I saw this as a Budget where the

0:20:44 > 0:20:50Chancellor was holding back. This year of all years, to have no

0:20:50 > 0:20:53mention of police security counterterrorism in the Budget

0:20:53 > 0:20:57seemed a monumental mistake. The police service here has not got much

0:20:57 > 0:21:04left to give. It is down to the bare minimum and we need to see the

0:21:04 > 0:21:08Chancellor bringing forward new funding for the police in the

0:21:08 > 0:21:12December settlement that it's about to get. To have no mention of it

0:21:12 > 0:21:18just seemed to me to be a major mistake.What did you make of Jeremy

0:21:18 > 0:21:25Corbyn's response to the Budget?I thought it was passionate. I don't

0:21:25 > 0:21:31think they will deal with the issue of Universal Credit.It was

0:21:31 > 0:21:36passionate but was it effective?I think so. People want to see people

0:21:36 > 0:21:41speaking with that level of commitment, genuine concern. The

0:21:41 > 0:21:44dangers are still there with Universal Credit. Tinkering with the

0:21:44 > 0:21:48waiting times I don't think will take away the problem that it could

0:21:48 > 0:21:52put more people on our streets, huddled in doorways. The Government

0:21:52 > 0:21:57needs to give a clear commitment that we won't see people spiralling

0:21:57 > 0:22:01into debt and then at the risk of being homeless as a result of

0:22:01 > 0:22:06Universal Credit roll out.The day after the Budget John McDonnell got

0:22:06 > 0:22:12in a muddle over his figures on debt repayment. He must -- you must have

0:22:12 > 0:22:16been cringing as you watched some of those interviews.You always get

0:22:16 > 0:22:22these interviews after the Budget. I have sat in those positions and I

0:22:22 > 0:22:26think it is partly what turns people off politics. I'm not here

0:22:26 > 0:22:30necessarily to speak for the front bench, I thought they mounted a good

0:22:30 > 0:22:36critique of the Budget. What I want is a more wholehearted embrace of

0:22:36 > 0:22:39devolution from both political parties. The challenge the country

0:22:39 > 0:22:44is facing right now is that we are to London centric, Brexit is

0:22:44 > 0:22:48looming, we need investment in the regions and I don't think we can

0:22:48 > 0:22:53bring this power back from Brussels and then keep it all in Westminster.

0:22:53 > 0:22:57We are already in overcentralised country and its crucial the power is

0:22:57 > 0:23:00passed down to places like Greater Manchester and I want to see both

0:23:00 > 0:23:04parties embracing that is part of the response to the referendum.I'm

0:23:04 > 0:23:09not asking you to speak for the Labour front bench, but how did it

0:23:09 > 0:23:13look to you when they were responding to it, you will know

0:23:13 > 0:23:18Labour are trailing in the polls on economic competence - did they do

0:23:18 > 0:23:21enough this week to adjust people's view as to whether or not Labour

0:23:21 > 0:23:26should be put in charge of the economy?That is the challenge that

0:23:26 > 0:23:30the Labour Party has to convince the country it can run a stronger

0:23:30 > 0:23:34economy. The Shadow Chancellor has put investment in infrastructure

0:23:34 > 0:23:39front and centre of what he's saying and I think he's absolutely right to

0:23:39 > 0:23:51do that. The country is crying out for that transport system,

0:23:51 > 0:23:53particularly here in the north that will allow us to improve

0:23:53 > 0:23:55productivity and they are not getting that from the current

0:23:55 > 0:23:57Chancellor. Looming questions about the Divorce Bill, so therefore he

0:23:57 > 0:24:00won't commit to the investment now. What you got from the Shadow

0:24:00 > 0:24:04Chancellor was a clearer analysis of what the country needs, and I think

0:24:04 > 0:24:09that's what people want to hear. Andy Burnham, thank you for coming

0:24:09 > 0:24:12in to talk to us.

0:24:12 > 0:24:15Last week we had a film from Leave campaigner Gisela Stuart on why

0:24:15 > 0:24:18business will continue to prosper across Europe after Brexit.

0:24:18 > 0:24:20This week, London and Dublin have clashed over what will

0:24:20 > 0:24:22happen to the border between Northern Ireland

0:24:22 > 0:24:25and the Irish Republic - something the EU says needs to be

0:24:25 > 0:24:27resolved if Brexit negotiations are to move onto trade next month.

0:24:27 > 0:24:30So today, Irish MEP and vice president of the European

0:24:30 > 0:24:33Parliament, Mairead McGuiness, takes us to the border to explain

0:24:33 > 0:24:38why she thinks Brexit could cause business -

0:24:38 > 0:24:41and the people on the island of Ireland -

0:24:41 > 0:24:42considerable difficulties.

0:24:53 > 0:24:56This is Dundalk in County Louth, a town close to the border

0:24:56 > 0:24:59with Northern Ireland, and close to where I grew up myself.

0:24:59 > 0:25:03Today, I represent the constituency along that 310 mile border.

0:25:03 > 0:25:05With the Brexit negotiations ongoing, people along the border

0:25:05 > 0:25:11are troubled by the uncertainty.

0:25:11 > 0:25:14From Dundalk, you can take a straight road to Northern Ireland

0:25:14 > 0:25:19and there's no stopping.

0:25:19 > 0:25:22At the last count, there are over 300 different road crossings

0:25:22 > 0:25:27between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.

0:25:27 > 0:25:29The big question is, what will change post-Brexit?

0:25:29 > 0:25:33And what do we have to do to keep the situation as it is today?

0:25:33 > 0:25:36For me, there is only one way, that the United Kingdom stays

0:25:36 > 0:25:41in the customs union.

0:25:41 > 0:25:43But I know the UK are determined not to do that.

0:25:43 > 0:25:45I think the negotiations are struggling.

0:25:45 > 0:25:47Not too far from the border crossing, just south,

0:25:47 > 0:25:49I caught up with beef farmer Jim Murray.

0:25:49 > 0:25:51That's the actual border itself, just ahead.

0:25:51 > 0:25:53The actual border is about half a mile past that.

0:25:53 > 0:25:56Today it is frictionless and seamless, and invisible.

0:25:56 > 0:25:58Totally.

0:25:58 > 0:26:00Do think it's going to stay that way after Brexit?

0:26:00 > 0:26:03Well, I hope it will stay like that, because were used to this.

0:26:03 > 0:26:06Well, I hope it will stay like that, because we're used to this.

0:26:06 > 0:26:10I come from a time when I remember that you couldn't actually go down

0:26:10 > 0:26:12that road to access, to do some business

0:26:12 > 0:26:14in the north, because the road was actually blocked.

0:26:14 > 0:26:16Have you been reassured by any of the political statements around

0:26:16 > 0:26:18the border in particular, basically saying that things

0:26:18 > 0:26:19will stay as they are?

0:26:19 > 0:26:22I haven't, really, because seamless and frictionless borders, you know,

0:26:22 > 0:26:25to me it is an oxymoron.

0:26:25 > 0:26:27Because it's still a border.

0:26:27 > 0:26:29I also visited George McArdle.

0:26:29 > 0:26:31He's been running a haulage company for the last 50

0:26:31 > 0:26:34years with experience of crossing the border.

0:26:34 > 0:26:36What are you worried about?

0:26:36 > 0:26:41We're worried about customs and delays.

0:26:41 > 0:26:46We'd be delayed a couple of hours.

0:26:46 > 0:26:51Would there be costs involved for you?

0:26:51 > 0:26:53We'd be paying drivers, the trucks lying idle.

0:26:53 > 0:26:55People say that, while we have peace, it is fragile.

0:26:55 > 0:26:56It's very fragile.

0:26:56 > 0:26:58Any little thing could upset the whole thing again,

0:26:58 > 0:27:01and we wouldn't like to see Brexit be the cause of it.

0:27:07 > 0:27:10We are moving from the Republic of Ireland, just across the border,

0:27:10 > 0:27:16and I'm now in Northern Ireland.

0:27:16 > 0:27:18It was very smooth, seamless and frictionless.

0:27:18 > 0:27:23I suppose that's what we want to see continue in a post-Brexit era.

0:27:23 > 0:27:25Just across the border into Northern Ireland, I caught

0:27:25 > 0:27:27up with Des Fraser, who gave me his view

0:27:27 > 0:27:29about why the United Kingdom decided to leave Europe.

0:27:29 > 0:27:32First of all it was the cost.

0:27:32 > 0:27:35I also felt, particularly the likes of the slurry ban, for agriculture,

0:27:35 > 0:27:37I don't think there should be somebody in Brussels

0:27:37 > 0:27:39telling us when we can or can't spread our slurry.

0:27:39 > 0:27:42What effect do you think Brexit would have on the border?

0:27:42 > 0:27:45Do you think we're going to be able to avoid a hard border?

0:27:45 > 0:27:47Getting a solution is the difficulty, there's no doubt.

0:27:47 > 0:27:50There's a harmonious relationship, you know,

0:27:50 > 0:27:53with Europe and Switzerland, Europe and Norway, without a hard

0:27:53 > 0:27:56border in existence.

0:27:56 > 0:27:59It's very clear that people on both sides of the border want the special

0:27:59 > 0:28:02circumstances on the island of Ireland to be taken into account

0:28:02 > 0:28:05in the Brexit negotiations.

0:28:05 > 0:28:10But can it be and will it be done in time for the December council?

0:28:10 > 0:28:12Will we resolve the conundrum and square the circle

0:28:12 > 0:28:18of an invisible border on the island of Ireland post-Brexit?

0:28:22 > 0:28:25And Mairead McGuiness joins us now from Dublin.

0:28:25 > 0:28:30The former Northern Ireland Secretary and leading Brexiteer,

0:28:30 > 0:28:34Owen Paterson, is in Shropshire.

0:28:34 > 0:28:48Thank you both for joining us. Owen Paterson, Mariad laid out her case,

0:28:48 > 0:28:53does the Government have an answer to this?Yes, there's already an

0:28:53 > 0:29:03existing border. I've been going there since ten years ago. There's a

0:29:03 > 0:29:08currency board, now a euro sterling border, a VAT border, a corporation

0:29:08 > 0:29:13tax border, and in all the time I've been going to Northern Ireland and

0:29:13 > 0:29:26the public, not a single person ever said this presents a problem....

0:29:26 > 0:29:34Physical border.Through the referendum campaign, we made it

0:29:34 > 0:29:38clear there are electronic measures and techniques, existing techniques

0:29:38 > 0:29:42such as authorised economic operators and this can all be made

0:29:42 > 0:29:48to work if there is a will on the border. It has a small amount of

0:29:48 > 0:29:56trade. Northern Ireland has 80% of its trade to the rest of the UK,

0:29:56 > 0:30:03only 5% goes over the border. It would be very easy to license

0:30:03 > 0:30:07tankers that take milk over the border as authorising economic

0:30:07 > 0:30:11operators that go over every day, they would be recognised on a

0:30:11 > 0:30:15regular basis, all invoices done electronically. It is a very small

0:30:15 > 0:30:26problem if there is a will.Let's bring in Mairead McGuiness. Owen

0:30:26 > 0:30:29Paterson sounds like he's saying you're exaggerating the problem is

0:30:29 > 0:30:32here.

0:30:32 > 0:30:35I've listened to it several times and not heard anything new. He is

0:30:35 > 0:30:39right that where there is a will there is a way. This is a serious

0:30:39 > 0:30:43matter for my constituency, for the island of Ireland and Europe. We

0:30:43 > 0:30:48have not found the way. To bring up separate currencies, OK, it is part

0:30:48 > 0:30:53of the situation, but we don't have a border in the visible sense. When

0:30:53 > 0:30:56the United Kingdom remains determined to leave the customs

0:30:56 > 0:31:00union and single market, the milk that he refers to produced in

0:31:00 > 0:31:04Northern Ireland and processed in the Republic of Ireland comes from a

0:31:04 > 0:31:07country that is a third country, no longer a member of the European

0:31:07 > 0:31:12Union. There are many issues about that. I know the fathers in Northern

0:31:12 > 0:31:15Ireland are deeply concerned about the consequences for them as daily

0:31:15 > 0:31:21farmers. -- dairy farmers. They are troubled by his insistence that he

0:31:21 > 0:31:25wants to scrap many of the rules around the food industry and

0:31:25 > 0:31:30agriculture. He wants to scrap support for agriculture. Even

0:31:30 > 0:31:33farmers that voted Leave, they are now quite perplexed about what they

0:31:33 > 0:31:37are hearing from the UK side, not just around the issue of the border,

0:31:37 > 0:31:43but on the wider issues of trade. That is where this problem really

0:31:43 > 0:31:47lies, and where we will have great difficulty. I am more troubled this

0:31:47 > 0:31:51morning, because I read a quote from Arlene Fox the trade Secretary,

0:31:51 > 0:31:55saying that the border issue and the Irish issue will not be solved until

0:31:55 > 0:32:00the final stage, until we reach a decision on trade. I hope the United

0:32:00 > 0:32:04Kingdom is not holding the situation to ransom in these negotiations. It

0:32:04 > 0:32:11is far too serious and too critical. Let's go to Owen Paterson.May I

0:32:11 > 0:32:15finish this point?We now have a situation on the island of Ireland

0:32:15 > 0:32:18and Northern Ireland where we have built piece and we are hoping to

0:32:18 > 0:32:22maintain that. I believe that we will and we can. Unfortunately,

0:32:22 > 0:32:25there is no assembly, there are divisions between the communities

0:32:25 > 0:32:30but they are now becoming deeper. We have to work really hard to avoid

0:32:30 > 0:32:35that. Part of that is to make sure, as Theresa May said on Friday, she

0:32:35 > 0:32:38wants the situation to remain the same as it is today, post-Brexit.

0:32:38 > 0:32:43The only way to achieve that is to stay in the customs union and single

0:32:43 > 0:32:48market. That is the solution.A lot for you to pick up on. Let's start

0:32:48 > 0:32:51with the idea that it might be possible to come up with a final

0:32:51 > 0:32:54solution to the Irish border question after we have seen the

0:32:54 > 0:32:59shape of a trade deal. EU made it clear we cannot talk about trade

0:32:59 > 0:33:04until the Irish border has been settled?Saw those comments were

0:33:04 > 0:33:09completely ridiculous and they have been repeated when we have done

0:33:09 > 0:33:12interviews before. -- some of those comments. The idea that Northern

0:33:12 > 0:33:17Ireland will be taken out of the UK is absurd. 78 million people voted

0:33:17 > 0:33:21to leave the European Union, they voted to leave the customs union and

0:33:21 > 0:33:27the single market, and the jurisdiction of the ECJ. The idea

0:33:27 > 0:33:30that politicians in Dublin can somehow start to force Northern

0:33:30 > 0:33:34Ireland to stay, against the will of a significant number of citizens,

0:33:34 > 0:33:37within an arrangement that will not serve the economic and you're

0:33:37 > 0:33:40politically, it is really very dangerous. Let's talk about the

0:33:40 > 0:33:44peace process, I can't think of anything more destabilising... This

0:33:44 > 0:33:50is a really important point. I want to make this point. It is really

0:33:50 > 0:33:52very irresponsible politicians to make a statement like that, saying

0:33:52 > 0:33:57they are going to force and blackmail the UK into getting a

0:33:57 > 0:34:00special status for Northern Ireland outside the rest of the UK. That is

0:34:00 > 0:34:05a really dangerous thing to do and they should stop doing it. There are

0:34:05 > 0:34:08perfectly sensible, technical solutions to the problem of the

0:34:08 > 0:34:11border. We currently have complete conformity of standards. Products

0:34:11 > 0:34:17going over the border go on a very regular basis. It is a tiny part of

0:34:17 > 0:34:21trade between the Republic of Ireland and the UK. It is a really

0:34:21 > 0:34:25tiny part of trade between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland

0:34:25 > 0:34:30and it is solvable by modern methods. The idea we will go back to

0:34:30 > 0:34:36old customs, with customs officials in bridges, sticking a ladle into a

0:34:36 > 0:34:46couple trickle, it is out of date. Less than 2% of goods are inspected

0:34:46 > 0:34:54physically. This is completely out of date. -- sticking a ladle into a

0:34:54 > 0:35:07tub of back-to-back.I am disturbed by some of those comments, to

0:35:07 > 0:35:11describe that view as ridiculous is not helpful. To suggest it is

0:35:11 > 0:35:15blackmailing is appalling. The UK, the Irish at the European Union know

0:35:15 > 0:35:21we have had a difficult history. We have worked hard politically and

0:35:21 > 0:35:29financially to make sure we move forward and we have. If the United

0:35:29 > 0:35:33Kingdom does trade agreements with other partners and goods are flowing

0:35:33 > 0:35:36into Northern Ireland, we have to watch and know where they are coming

0:35:36 > 0:35:40from. That will affect businesses in Northern Ireland, as it will affect

0:35:40 > 0:35:44businesses in the European Union. I dislike this notion, and it is

0:35:44 > 0:35:48happening and happened again in this studio this morning, that the United

0:35:48 > 0:35:52Kingdom and Owen Paterson would say if borders go up, it is our fault.

0:35:52 > 0:35:55Let's be frank, because we should be, we are neighbours and good

0:35:55 > 0:36:02friends. The European Union, 28 today, we respect the democratic

0:36:02 > 0:36:05decision of the United Kingdom to leave, but I would ask you to

0:36:05 > 0:36:09reflect on the reality of Northern Ireland, where people voted to stay

0:36:09 > 0:36:12because they knew the consequences for them. Regrettably, where the

0:36:12 > 0:36:15referendum was taking place, there was no talk about the consequences

0:36:15 > 0:36:21for Northern Ireland or the island of Ireland. We are left in a

0:36:21 > 0:36:24situation where, retrospectively, we are trying to find solutions. If it

0:36:24 > 0:36:28upsets your guest at the studio, I repeated anyway, we have to be frank

0:36:28 > 0:36:32with one another. The way to stay the same on the island of Ireland,

0:36:32 > 0:36:37as it is today, post-Brexit, is for at least the United Kingdom to take

0:36:37 > 0:36:40the red off the table, to stay the customs union and single market

0:36:40 > 0:36:45gives us what we have today, and invisible border, seamless trade,

0:36:45 > 0:36:51and also building at helping to keep those relationships. The good

0:36:51 > 0:36:55relationship was helped in no small part because Ireland, the United

0:36:55 > 0:37:00Kingdom and 26 other countries can sit around a table. They sit in the

0:37:00 > 0:37:03European Parliament, in the council, and we do business because we got to

0:37:03 > 0:37:08know each other. We have formal and informal talks and relationships. We

0:37:08 > 0:37:11should really strive to continue that. It is in the interests of the

0:37:11 > 0:37:15people we spoke to on the border, those that wanted the United Kingdom

0:37:15 > 0:37:19to stay, and those that might have had a different view.Owen Paterson,

0:37:19 > 0:37:28can you see that this can be resolved before we know the shape of

0:37:28 > 0:37:31a final trade deal? The idea that the Irish question needs to be

0:37:31 > 0:37:34settled before we move on to talking about future trading or relations?

0:37:34 > 0:37:38Is that possible?As somebody who spent time a shadow and Secretary of

0:37:38 > 0:37:45State, going very regularly to Dublin, getting the main political

0:37:45 > 0:37:49parties in on that, I appreciate the good level of relations between the

0:37:49 > 0:37:53UK and the Republic of Ireland, the enormous benefits to so many people.

0:37:53 > 0:37:58Therefore, I am absolutely dismayed at the talk this morning, which is

0:37:58 > 0:38:00completely unrealistic, expecting Northern Ireland to be given a

0:38:00 > 0:38:05separate status, outside, effectively, the United Kingdom. 87%

0:38:05 > 0:38:11of sales, purely on economics, are within the UK. Henri

0:38:12 > 0:38:16-- on economic grounds, it is crazy. It is very dangerous. There was a

0:38:16 > 0:38:20referendum at the time of the Belfast agreement. There was

0:38:20 > 0:38:25overwhelming support for it to stay in the UK. All of the polls show

0:38:25 > 0:38:31that Northern Ireland will stay very firmly within the UK.Very quickly,

0:38:31 > 0:38:39then, one last point?I hate to say, but Owen may not be listening to

0:38:39 > 0:38:43what I said. I said the United Kingdom would stay in the customs

0:38:43 > 0:38:46union and single market, I did not say Northern Ireland should separate

0:38:46 > 0:38:51and stay in, although that is a potential solution, it is not the

0:38:51 > 0:38:55one I said this morning. Please respond to what I have said.We

0:38:55 > 0:38:59don't have time to respond to any of that. It is an issue we will return

0:38:59 > 0:39:03to. Thank you very much.

0:39:03 > 0:39:07It's coming up to 11.40, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:39:07 > 0:39:09Coming up on the programme, Ellie's taken the Moodbox to Yorkshire

0:39:13 > 0:39:17A big event that will make us feel better off. But enough about Black

0:39:17 > 0:39:21Friday, we also have the Budget this week. We are asking shoppers in

0:39:21 > 0:39:23Leeds what matters most to them.

0:39:23 > 0:39:24First though, it's time for the Sunday Politics where you are.

0:39:37 > 0:39:40Hello and welcome to the London part of the show.

0:39:40 > 0:39:41I'm Jo Coburn.

0:39:41 > 0:39:43Joining me for the duration, Theresa Villiers, Conservative MP

0:39:43 > 0:39:45for Chipping Barnet and a leading Brexiteer, and Wes Streeting,

0:39:45 > 0:39:47Labour MP for Ilford North, a Remainer who sits

0:39:47 > 0:39:50on the Treasury Select Committee.

0:39:50 > 0:39:53Welcome to you both.

0:39:53 > 0:39:56I want to start with the Grenfell Tower fire

0:39:56 > 0:39:59and the announcement in the Budget that the Government

0:39:59 > 0:40:01is pledging more money to help with the fallout from the disaster.

0:40:01 > 0:40:04Jerry Thomas reports.

0:40:04 > 0:40:05In Wednesday's Budget, the Chancellor Philip Hammond

0:40:05 > 0:40:08announced more help for the survivors of the fire

0:40:08 > 0:40:13that claimed 71 lives and made hundreds homeless.

0:40:13 > 0:40:16Today I can announce we will provide Kensington and Chelsea Council

0:40:16 > 0:40:18with a further £28 million for mental health and counselling

0:40:18 > 0:40:20services, regeneration support for the surrounding areas,

0:40:20 > 0:40:25and to provide a new community space for local residents.

0:40:25 > 0:40:28I spent weeks speaking to ministers and I'm absolutely delighted that

0:40:28 > 0:40:37they've agreed to give us £28 million today.

0:40:37 > 0:40:39Following the Grenfell Tower disaster, fire safety flaws

0:40:39 > 0:40:41were discovered in hundreds of high-rise blocks

0:40:41 > 0:40:44around the country.

0:40:44 > 0:40:46Mr Hammond has called on local authorities to speed up efforts

0:40:46 > 0:40:49to ensure all high-rise towers are safe, adding any local

0:40:49 > 0:40:51authorities which needed financial help to do so should go directly

0:40:51 > 0:40:59to central government.

0:40:59 > 0:41:01If any local authority cannot access funding to pay

0:41:01 > 0:41:04for essential fire safety work, they should contact us immediately.

0:41:04 > 0:41:07However, BBC London has discovered that about half of London's boroughs

0:41:07 > 0:41:10had asked for financial help to the tune of £400 million.

0:41:10 > 0:41:15So far, they haven't received a penny.

0:41:15 > 0:41:18We have already approached the Government on a number

0:41:18 > 0:41:20of occasions, asked for the money we desperately need here

0:41:20 > 0:41:25in Croydon to fit sprinklers, and been turned down.

0:41:25 > 0:41:26It's promises of jam tomorrow.

0:41:26 > 0:41:29We have over 130 blocks over seven floors high and if we wanted to put

0:41:29 > 0:41:32sprinklers in them for example, we would need many millions

0:41:32 > 0:41:34of pounds from the Government and there's no sign

0:41:34 > 0:41:37whatsoever of that.

0:41:37 > 0:41:40The Government have said they will not allow what they call

0:41:40 > 0:41:42financial restraints to get in the way of any essential

0:41:42 > 0:41:46fire safety works.

0:41:46 > 0:41:51Jerry Thomas reporting there.

0:41:51 > 0:41:53Wes Streeting, do you welcome the pledge of £28 million?

0:41:53 > 0:41:55It's a significant amount of money for Grenfell fire victims.

0:41:55 > 0:41:58Of course, I mean when dealing with a major disaster like this,

0:41:58 > 0:42:00Kensington and Chelsea Council clearly need support.

0:42:00 > 0:42:03I think it's one of the parts of the Budget speech I cheered

0:42:03 > 0:42:05actually because I think it's right that particularly mental health

0:42:05 > 0:42:07support is in place.

0:42:07 > 0:42:10What does concern me however is there are still over 100 Grenfell

0:42:10 > 0:42:12families still living in hotels or temporary accommodation

0:42:12 > 0:42:15and I think the least we can do is give them a bit of longer-term

0:42:15 > 0:42:18security and a home they can call their own.

0:42:18 > 0:42:19So I hope we will see

0:42:19 > 0:42:23more urgent action on that funds from government.

0:42:23 > 0:42:25As you heard in the film from Alison Butler and John Biggs,

0:42:25 > 0:42:28I think lots of local authorities across London which do have tower

0:42:28 > 0:42:31blocks and want to see those tower blocks retrofitted with sprinklers

0:42:31 > 0:42:34to give residents the confidence that if a similar disaster erupted

0:42:34 > 0:42:43there would be better response.

0:42:43 > 0:42:45I'm afraid that's where the gulf between rhetoric

0:42:45 > 0:42:46and reality kicks in.

0:42:46 > 0:42:49Let's start with the money going to Kensington and Chelsea.

0:42:49 > 0:42:51Is that the right place to put that money?

0:42:51 > 0:42:53Should it be run by central government rather than

0:42:53 > 0:42:55the council directly?

0:42:55 > 0:42:57The Government and Kensington and Chelsea Council are working very

0:42:57 > 0:43:00closely together to support the families and deal with the

0:43:00 > 0:43:01terrible aftermath of this tragedy.

0:43:01 > 0:43:04So I think the academic point about whether technically the money

0:43:04 > 0:43:06is controlled by the Council or central government

0:43:06 > 0:43:10is they need to work together to solve the problem.

0:43:10 > 0:43:12It's not so much an academic point.

0:43:12 > 0:43:14There has been criticism that actually the council hasn't dealt

0:43:14 > 0:43:15with it successfully and effectively

0:43:15 > 0:43:18until now, so giving them a large pot of money,

0:43:18 > 0:43:21are they the right people - not from a practical point of view -

0:43:21 > 0:43:28but whether they can actually do the job.

0:43:28 > 0:43:30It's clear that Kensington and Chelsea need help

0:43:30 > 0:43:32from central government to deal with the situation.

0:43:32 > 0:43:34They have been getting it from an early stage,

0:43:34 > 0:43:35I'm sure that will continue.

0:43:35 > 0:43:36Do you agree?

0:43:36 > 0:43:38Yes, I mean I agree with Theresa.

0:43:38 > 0:43:40Who is controlling the budget is less important than

0:43:40 > 0:43:44the outcomes for residents.

0:43:44 > 0:43:46So you think they're up to the job, Kensington and Chelsea?

0:43:46 > 0:43:48Well, look, there are clearly problems with

0:43:48 > 0:43:49the previous leadership

0:43:49 > 0:43:51of the council and it was right that the leadership

0:43:51 > 0:43:53of the council resigned.

0:43:53 > 0:43:55In terms of the new leadership of the council, I don't

0:43:55 > 0:43:56feel close enough.

0:43:56 > 0:43:59And tempting though it is to bash a Tory council

0:43:59 > 0:44:01because they are Tories, I think they've got enough

0:44:01 > 0:44:04on their plate and I certainly don't envy the position the leader

0:44:04 > 0:44:06of the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea finds herself in,

0:44:06 > 0:44:08having to deal with the aftermath of this disaster.

0:44:08 > 0:44:11I think it's important we give them the support across the political

0:44:11 > 0:44:14spectrum to do the job well.

0:44:14 > 0:44:17So was it helpful of your Labour colleague, Emma Dent Coad,

0:44:17 > 0:44:19as the local MP there, to say she didn't really

0:44:19 > 0:44:23trust the council to spend the money wisely?

0:44:23 > 0:44:26Well, Emma has been a lot closer to the whole disaster than I have

0:44:26 > 0:44:29and certainly for a new MP to be confronted with this disaster

0:44:29 > 0:44:31in the very first few weeks in office is difficult,

0:44:31 > 0:44:34but I think the jury is still out on the new leadership

0:44:34 > 0:44:42of Kensington and Chelsea.

0:44:42 > 0:44:45I think they've got the chance to prove themselves and the most

0:44:45 > 0:44:47important thing is the residents and making sure they get

0:44:47 > 0:44:48the support they need.

0:44:48 > 0:44:50What's the point, Theresa Villiers, of the Chancellor saying,

0:44:50 > 0:44:52come to us, come to me, councils out there,

0:44:52 > 0:44:54if you need funding or access

0:44:54 > 0:44:56to funds in order to retrofit sprinklers or for any fire safety,

0:44:56 > 0:44:59things you need to do, when half of London's boroughs say

0:44:59 > 0:45:02they have asked for that money and haven't got it?

0:45:02 > 0:45:03Well, the Chancellor repeated his statement that he's

0:45:03 > 0:45:06made a number of times that councils should come to central government

0:45:06 > 0:45:08if they need this funding.

0:45:08 > 0:45:10Now, I don't know the history of the individual boroughs.

0:45:10 > 0:45:13If they are saying they're not getting all of their funding...

0:45:13 > 0:45:15Or any of it, they say the Government has yet

0:45:15 > 0:45:16to agree to any support.

0:45:16 > 0:45:19I would suggest they go back to Sajid Javid of the DCLG

0:45:19 > 0:45:23and have a further discussion.

0:45:23 > 0:45:25There are divided views about sprinklers, whether they are

0:45:25 > 0:45:26the right way forward.

0:45:26 > 0:45:29There will obviously need to be a debate about what are

0:45:29 > 0:45:30the best safety measures.

0:45:30 > 0:45:33In part, we won't know that for certain until the public inquiry

0:45:33 > 0:45:35reports, but it is very important for local councils if they are

0:45:35 > 0:45:37worried about these issues to continue the dialogue

0:45:37 > 0:45:40with central government so they can get the funding they need.

0:45:40 > 0:45:43Do you think Philip Hammond should guarantee that money for fire safety

0:45:43 > 0:45:44for councils who ask for it?

0:45:44 > 0:45:47He has sort of more or less done that, but obviously won't give

0:45:47 > 0:45:49an individual blank cheque to each council.

0:45:49 > 0:45:51They need to check these are the right measures

0:45:51 > 0:45:53and that they can be funded.

0:45:53 > 0:45:54Can he be trusted to do that?

0:45:54 > 0:45:58Well look, there's a gap between rhetoric and reality.

0:45:58 > 0:46:00My experience of a deputy leader of a London borough previously

0:46:00 > 0:46:03before being elected to Parliament is that local authorities are far

0:46:03 > 0:46:05better at spending their money than central government,

0:46:05 > 0:46:08and I think the Chancellor has got to be a bit clearer

0:46:08 > 0:46:09about what is up for grabs

0:46:09 > 0:46:15and genuinely meeting the needs of London boroughs.

0:46:15 > 0:46:17Right, and we will obviously closely follow the story.

0:46:17 > 0:46:19Now, of all the areas the Chancellor raised in his Budget,

0:46:19 > 0:46:22the one issue that was most anticipated in London was housing.

0:46:22 > 0:46:23Tanjil Rashid has been gauging the reaction

0:46:23 > 0:46:24from the housing sector.

0:46:24 > 0:46:27So today, we set out an ambitious plan to tackle

0:46:27 > 0:46:31the housing challenge.

0:46:31 > 0:46:33A challenge that resonated especially at this housing industry

0:46:33 > 0:46:37event on Budget afternoon.

0:46:37 > 0:46:39Councils at the sharp end of London's housing shortage will,

0:46:39 > 0:46:42following this week's Budget, be able to borrow more to build

0:46:42 > 0:46:44houses, but they say it's not the freedom to borrow that

0:46:44 > 0:46:55they'd asked for.

0:46:58 > 0:47:01It's this borrowing cap that revives really an artificial ceiling

0:47:01 > 0:47:05on what we can build.

0:47:05 > 0:47:08We wanted to see that lifted for councils across London

0:47:08 > 0:47:10and instead what we've heard is there's £1 billion, it's

0:47:10 > 0:47:13£1 billion for the whole of England, councils will have to bid in.

0:47:13 > 0:47:16It already sounds like a scheme that is mired in bureaucracy

0:47:16 > 0:47:18but doesn't have the sorts of cash that is required.

0:47:18 > 0:47:20The Government has scrapped stamp duty for first time buyers

0:47:20 > 0:47:23of houses under £300,000, and for the first 300,000 on a house

0:47:23 > 0:47:29costing up to half a million, saving on average £5,000 in London.

0:47:29 > 0:47:31It's a policy targeting young people, but there are advocates

0:47:31 > 0:47:34of generation rent who say it may make things worse.

0:47:34 > 0:47:37That might sound like a really great offer for my generation of people

0:47:37 > 0:47:40looking to get on the property ladder, but actually if you look

0:47:40 > 0:47:41at the Independent Office for Budget Responsibility's

0:47:41 > 0:47:45own figures, all they really say is that will push up house prices.

0:47:45 > 0:47:48In fact the saving that first time buyers might make from not having

0:47:48 > 0:47:50stamp duty will be absorbed by house prices.

0:47:50 > 0:47:56There are 270,000 sites in London that have planning permission

0:47:56 > 0:47:58but remain undeveloped.

0:47:58 > 0:48:01There will now be a review into why that's the case but there are doubts

0:48:01 > 0:48:05over whether the Chancellor has dealt with the real issue.

0:48:05 > 0:48:09He has stopped short in terms of looking at land in London

0:48:09 > 0:48:14and particularly saying whether 24%, nearly a quarter of land in London

0:48:14 > 0:48:17being green belt, is the right use of that land within the remit

0:48:17 > 0:48:19of the Greater London area.

0:48:19 > 0:48:21The Government had raised expectations that this would be

0:48:21 > 0:48:24a radical house-building Budget and they have for example announced

0:48:24 > 0:48:29£44 billion' worth of capital investment in housing.

0:48:29 > 0:48:31Nevertheless, the word from the great and the good

0:48:31 > 0:48:32of the housing sector

0:48:32 > 0:48:35gathered here is that it wasn't quite the slam dunk the Chancellor

0:48:35 > 0:48:36had been hoping for.

0:48:37 > 0:48:41Theresa Villiers, what was radical about announcing £44 billion

0:48:41 > 0:48:45for a housing package of which only £15 billion was actually new money?

0:48:45 > 0:48:47Well, it is radical, that's a significant amount of money

0:48:47 > 0:48:49and the Chancellor is determined to provide the infrastructure

0:48:49 > 0:48:55we need to enable housing developments to go ahead.

0:48:55 > 0:48:58I know in many places the anxiety about getting planning permission

0:48:58 > 0:49:02for new homes is whether the local infrastructure can cope.

0:49:02 > 0:49:04Well, with these additional resources, it's going to be much

0:49:04 > 0:49:06easier to get those planning permissions because there

0:49:06 > 0:49:08can be more confidence that the infrastructure locally

0:49:08 > 0:49:16is able to support it.

0:49:16 > 0:49:18Right, with the 300,000 homes, that's the pledge being

0:49:18 > 0:49:20built by the mid 2020s.

0:49:20 > 0:49:21There is a chronic housing shortage now.

0:49:21 > 0:49:23We've built around a million new homes since 2010.

0:49:23 > 0:49:26You've built 217,000 new homes this year,

0:49:26 > 0:49:28that's still below the target of 250,000 and that's

0:49:28 > 0:49:32from a very low bar.

0:49:32 > 0:49:35The Government is very clear it needs to do more,

0:49:35 > 0:49:38it needs to do better, that's why we are having this review

0:49:38 > 0:49:40about why planning permissions are not being built,

0:49:40 > 0:49:42but the solution is not to build on the green belt.

0:49:42 > 0:49:43Why not?

0:49:43 > 0:49:48Because if we build on the green belt, we will end up with urban

0:49:48 > 0:49:50sprawl all the way to Birmingham.

0:49:50 > 0:49:51That green belt is vital to keep London breathing,

0:49:51 > 0:49:53to protect London's environment.

0:49:53 > 0:49:55Philip Hammond was reported to want to announce that there

0:49:55 > 0:49:58should be some building on the green belt but Tory MPs have

0:49:58 > 0:49:59stopped him doing that.

0:49:59 > 0:50:04Isn't that the only way to radically up the number of homes that

0:50:04 > 0:50:06are built, by building on the green belt?

0:50:06 > 0:50:10Not at all.

0:50:10 > 0:50:13There are plenty of brownfield sites in the city that we can build on.

0:50:13 > 0:50:14Do you agree?

0:50:14 > 0:50:16Was it to protect the green belt, Wes Streeting?

0:50:16 > 0:50:18Well, I certainly support the brownfield first policy.

0:50:18 > 0:50:20Obviously there is scope to look at reclassifying and redesignating

0:50:20 > 0:50:23greenbelt but when you look at the available urban land

0:50:23 > 0:50:25available in London, there is still space to build

0:50:25 > 0:50:28significant numbers of new homes but this is a supply and demand

0:50:28 > 0:50:31issue, it's as simple as that.

0:50:31 > 0:50:33Until we see significant investment in supply of new homes

0:50:33 > 0:50:36available to rent or buy, we are not going to solve

0:50:36 > 0:50:38London's housing crisis.

0:50:38 > 0:50:41What the Chancellor announced this week didn't come close to meeting

0:50:41 > 0:50:42London's housing needs soon enough.

0:50:42 > 0:50:44Did you support the abolition of stamp duty for most

0:50:44 > 0:50:46first time buyers?

0:50:46 > 0:50:48In isolation, as we heard in the package there,

0:50:48 > 0:50:51all that's going to do is drive up house prices further and offset any

0:50:51 > 0:50:53benefit to first time buyers.

0:50:53 > 0:50:56Although something very similar was in the Labour Party manifesto.

0:50:56 > 0:50:58And I was just going to come onto our manifesto.

0:50:58 > 0:51:03The key difference in Labour's manifesto is that that policy

0:51:03 > 0:51:08would work alongside an unprecedented period of new home

0:51:08 > 0:51:12construction outside of a post-war period and unless you've got that

0:51:12 > 0:51:14level of investment, we need 66,000 homes

0:51:14 > 0:51:16a year at least to meet London's housing needs.

0:51:16 > 0:51:17That would require 2.7 billion.

0:51:17 > 0:51:19Londoners were short-changed with just 0.5 billion

0:51:19 > 0:51:20for new homes in this Budget.

0:51:20 > 0:51:23So for the Budget that was meant to be the housing Budget,

0:51:23 > 0:51:26the big breakthrough, it was a bit of a damp squib really.

0:51:26 > 0:51:30What do you say about the impartial Office for Budget Responsibility

0:51:30 > 0:51:33setting out that actually all that stamp duty abolition will do is push

0:51:33 > 0:51:36up prices and actually won't help anything like the numbers of people

0:51:36 > 0:51:37the Chancellor said?

0:51:37 > 0:51:39Well, they have their views obviously.

0:51:39 > 0:51:42It might have some impact on house prices but it still means that first

0:51:42 > 0:51:45time buyers have less cash to find to get on the housing

0:51:45 > 0:51:46ladder so it will help...

0:51:46 > 0:51:48But the prices will be higher.

0:51:48 > 0:51:49It will be helpful but we acknowledge it's

0:51:49 > 0:51:51not the whole answer.

0:51:51 > 0:51:53That's why the Budget also contained an increase in investment

0:51:53 > 0:51:57in the infrastructure we need to build more homes.

0:51:57 > 0:51:59Should councils be able to borrow large amounts

0:51:59 > 0:52:01of money to build homes?

0:52:01 > 0:52:05Councils already have borrowing powers.

0:52:05 > 0:52:09They have some and they are limited.

0:52:09 > 0:52:11We do need to maintain caution because ultimately those monies

0:52:11 > 0:52:14have to be paid back, but I know it's important to keep

0:52:14 > 0:52:16these things under review, and housing associations

0:52:16 > 0:52:20are obviously getting more opportunities to borrow

0:52:20 > 0:52:26now than in the past because of the reclassification

0:52:26 > 0:52:29of their debt, so things are changing and if changes

0:52:29 > 0:52:31are needed in the future in relation to local government,

0:52:31 > 0:52:33I'm sure the Chancellor will look at that.

0:52:33 > 0:52:34We have to leave it there.

0:52:34 > 0:52:36This week, the Office of National Statistics published

0:52:36 > 0:52:39a report that found that nationally over 1 million domestic

0:52:39 > 0:52:41abuse-related incidents were reported to police in the year

0:52:41 > 0:52:43ending March 2017.

0:52:43 > 0:52:45And domestic abuse in London, in particular, is on the rise,

0:52:45 > 0:52:50accounting for one in ten reported offences in the capital.

0:52:50 > 0:52:53Now a cross-party group from the London Assembly has called

0:52:53 > 0:52:55on the government to create a register identifying people

0:52:55 > 0:53:00convicted of domestic abuse, similar to the sex offenders register.

0:53:00 > 0:53:05But is this the most effective way to protect potential victims?

0:53:05 > 0:53:08Bhavani Vadde reports, and I should warn you that her film does contain

0:53:08 > 0:53:12some distressing images.

0:53:12 > 0:53:16Zoe Dronfield's story is one of remarkable survival.

0:53:16 > 0:53:18She suffered a brutal eight-hour attack by her ex-boyfriend,

0:53:18 > 0:53:23who had been stalking and harassing her.

0:53:23 > 0:53:26I just remember thuds raining down on my head.

0:53:26 > 0:53:30I had 15 separate injuries from that attack.

0:53:30 > 0:53:33It was a sustained attack with knives involved, a meat cleaver.

0:53:33 > 0:53:37I knew I had to get out of there, I knew he was going to kill me.

0:53:37 > 0:53:40After he was convicted, she learnt that 13 other women had

0:53:40 > 0:53:42also been his victims.

0:53:42 > 0:53:44Since then, she's campaigned for serial domestic violence abusers

0:53:44 > 0:53:51and stalkers to be put on a register.

0:53:51 > 0:53:53He was known to the police.

0:53:53 > 0:53:55It was the same force for all of those victims

0:53:55 > 0:53:57and they never picked up this pattern and escalation.

0:53:57 > 0:54:00This kind of behaviour has been going on and it's been allowed

0:54:00 > 0:54:05to escalate to almost murder.

0:54:05 > 0:54:08If he was on a register, that would mean that he would be

0:54:08 > 0:54:09tracked and monitored.

0:54:09 > 0:54:12Zoe's is not an isolated incident.

0:54:12 > 0:54:15It's been a year since five-year-old Alex Malcolm was beaten to death

0:54:15 > 0:54:16in a park in Catford.

0:54:16 > 0:54:19His killer, Marvyn Iheanacho, was a partner of Alex's mother

0:54:19 > 0:54:26who had no knowledge of his history of violence.

0:54:26 > 0:54:29It was that particularly tragic case that prompted the London Assembly

0:54:29 > 0:54:31to start a cross-party campaign for a register of those convicted

0:54:31 > 0:54:34of domestic abuse offences, similar to the one used

0:54:34 > 0:54:39for sexual offenders.

0:54:39 > 0:54:42Those guilty of certain sexual offences must keep the police

0:54:42 > 0:54:49updated on their personal details, including their address.

0:54:49 > 0:54:51Assembly members are calling on the Government to include

0:54:51 > 0:54:53an equivalent system in the forthcoming domestic

0:54:53 > 0:54:54violence and abuse bill, which is expected this

0:54:54 > 0:54:57Parliamentary session.

0:54:57 > 0:55:00Domestic violence and abuse is increasing, so we need something

0:55:00 > 0:55:04extra to give some added strength to help police manage offenders

0:55:04 > 0:55:10but also manage the risk, because I think we could have

0:55:10 > 0:55:12prevented that tragic murder of that five-year-old,

0:55:12 > 0:55:15and I think we can prevent repeat abuse, violence and other

0:55:15 > 0:55:17against women in the future by having such a list.

0:55:17 > 0:55:20Domestic abuse accounts for around one in ten of all recorded

0:55:20 > 0:55:21differences in London.

0:55:21 > 0:55:23There's been a 15% increase in the number

0:55:23 > 0:55:29of victims in three years.

0:55:29 > 0:55:34Four out of ten survivors are repeat victims, but despite these rising

0:55:34 > 0:55:43numbers there's been a 38% fall in spending by London councils

0:55:43 > 0:55:45on services designed to help those who've suffered domestic violence.

0:55:45 > 0:55:48And sufficient resources will be key to a domestic abuse

0:55:48 > 0:55:49register being effective, according to one charity

0:55:49 > 0:55:53working in the sector.

0:55:53 > 0:55:57A register needs to be backed up with a range of services that can

0:55:57 > 0:55:58work directly with domestic abuse perpetrators, and both

0:55:58 > 0:56:01manage their behaviour and control their behaviour and help

0:56:01 > 0:56:05them change, so that's a mixture of existing sanctions being used

0:56:05 > 0:56:10properly and enforced consistently, and then a range of new services

0:56:10 > 0:56:17that are properly resourced that help people change.

0:56:17 > 0:56:24There is clearly a need for more resources.

0:56:24 > 0:56:28We have less than 1% of perpetrators today who get put on any kind

0:56:28 > 0:56:29of programme or anything that helps them change.

0:56:29 > 0:56:32The Home Office told us that the publication of a domestic

0:56:32 > 0:56:35violence and abuse bill will aim to break the cycle of harm.

0:56:35 > 0:56:37Measures planned for the bill include a definition

0:56:37 > 0:56:40of domestic abuse in law and a new domestic abuse commission.

0:56:40 > 0:56:43But Zoe says she will continue to lobby for a domestic abuse

0:56:43 > 0:56:46register to prevent anyone else going through the same

0:56:46 > 0:56:49ordeal as her.

0:56:49 > 0:56:51Joining me now, Sophie Walker, leader

0:56:51 > 0:56:53of the Women's Equality Party.

0:56:53 > 0:56:55Welcome to the programme.

0:56:55 > 0:56:57The statistics were quite shocking actually, the numbers

0:56:57 > 0:56:59of domestic violence.

0:56:59 > 0:57:01Would a register, though, be the best way to protect victims

0:57:01 > 0:57:04and potential victims?

0:57:04 > 0:57:09Well, I'm very glad you asked that because I think that too often

0:57:09 > 0:57:11when we talk about violence against women and girls,

0:57:11 > 0:57:17we talk about the details.

0:57:17 > 0:57:21A register would certainly, I think, go some way potentially

0:57:21 > 0:57:25towards helping victims and potential victims

0:57:25 > 0:57:30if it was constructed with the help of victims in a way that is fully

0:57:30 > 0:57:34funded, in a way that incorporates police training.

0:57:34 > 0:57:38But actually, when we talk about violence against women

0:57:38 > 0:57:40and girls, we talk too much about policing it, we talk too

0:57:40 > 0:57:44much about it as though it is something we have to manage,

0:57:44 > 0:57:49and we do not talk about what causes it and how we stop it.

0:57:49 > 0:57:54And what causes it is a fundamental imbalance of power between men

0:57:54 > 0:57:59and women, which comes about because women earn less,

0:57:59 > 0:58:02women have less opportunity to participate in the economy.

0:58:02 > 0:58:05It's interesting we have just been talking about the Budget.

0:58:05 > 0:58:09Year after year after year, our Chancellor, from whichever

0:58:09 > 0:58:12party, investing in physical infrastructure rather

0:58:12 > 0:58:15than the social infrastructure that would revolutionise women's lives.

0:58:15 > 0:58:18Let's pick up first of all on the register.

0:58:18 > 0:58:20Theresa Villiers, you have been written to, presumably,

0:58:20 > 0:58:21by the London Assembly.

0:58:21 > 0:58:23They have written to all MPs in London.

0:58:23 > 0:58:25Do you back their cross-party campaign for a register?

0:58:25 > 0:58:27I'm open-minded on this at the moment.

0:58:27 > 0:58:30I think there is quite a strong case for it.

0:58:30 > 0:58:32We need to think it through.

0:58:32 > 0:58:35I think what would make sense is the Government

0:58:35 > 0:58:37is about to consult on its legislation on domestic

0:58:37 > 0:58:39violence and abuse...

0:58:39 > 0:58:47Is this going to be part of it?

0:58:47 > 0:58:50I think it's worth putting a question on this in that

0:58:50 > 0:58:53consultation because we do need to make sure we get this right.

0:58:53 > 0:58:56What I would agree on, if we do go ahead with this,

0:58:56 > 0:58:58it is obviously only one part of an effective strategy

0:58:58 > 0:58:59to tackle this.

0:58:59 > 0:59:02Right, but you haven't made up your mind, you haven't signed

0:59:02 > 0:59:03up to this campaign?

0:59:03 > 0:59:04Not 100%.

0:59:04 > 0:59:06I think we need to investigate it thoroughly but there

0:59:06 > 0:59:09is quite a credible case for going ahead with this.

0:59:09 > 0:59:11Do you agree with Sophie Walker that it is gender inequality

0:59:11 > 0:59:14that is the cause, in the main part, of domestic abuse?

0:59:14 > 0:59:17It is a very significant contributor to the fact of this problem, yes.

0:59:17 > 0:59:20Right, what are your objections to - if you have reservations,

0:59:20 > 0:59:23what are your reservations about not signing up?

0:59:23 > 0:59:26I think we need to first of all work out the interaction with other

0:59:26 > 0:59:29databases in particular.

0:59:29 > 0:59:32We wouldn't want confusion or duplication of databases

0:59:32 > 0:59:34to cause complication and undermine our ability to keep

0:59:34 > 0:59:36track of these offenders.

0:59:36 > 0:59:39That would be the main point of caution.

0:59:39 > 0:59:40Are you going to sign up to it?

0:59:40 > 0:59:44I do support the register actually.

0:59:44 > 0:59:47I think it would be a welcome step forward and a tool

0:59:47 > 0:59:52for combating domestic abuse, but I agree with Sophie,

0:59:52 > 0:59:54there are a far wider range of issues both about structural

0:59:54 > 0:59:57inequality facing women in our society but also on domestic

0:59:57 > 0:59:58abuse and domestic

0:59:58 > 1:00:00violence specifically, we heard in the film that local

1:00:00 > 1:00:05government has been clobbered by cuts and that means services

1:00:05 > 1:00:08available to support victims of domestic abuse have been up

1:00:08 > 1:00:14for the chop alongside other critical services,

1:00:14 > 1:00:16and without falling into the trap that Sophie identified earlier

1:00:16 > 1:00:21of just talking about the policing of this, you know, the fact

1:00:21 > 1:00:24is the Met have lost £600 million since 2010, another 400 million set

1:00:24 > 1:00:26to follow and the policing of domestic violence is an important

1:00:26 > 1:00:28component of this.

1:00:28 > 1:00:31As with other forms of serious crime facing Londoners,

1:00:31 > 1:00:35one in ten crimes in London are domestic abuse, our ability

1:00:35 > 1:00:38to effectively deal with this crime is limited if we don't have

1:00:38 > 1:00:39sufficient police resources.

1:00:39 > 1:00:41Do you accept that point?

1:00:41 > 1:00:43What I would like us to be talking about,

1:00:43 > 1:00:46if we are going to talk about the details, is funding

1:00:46 > 1:00:48because the commissioning model is absolutely broken.

1:00:48 > 1:00:50These services are not...

1:00:50 > 1:00:52We need services not just to support women but also

1:00:52 > 1:01:00to advocate for women.

1:01:00 > 1:01:01What we are losing are the specialist services

1:01:01 > 1:01:03particularly for black,

1:01:03 > 1:01:05Asian, ethnic minority women, for women with disabilities,

1:01:05 > 1:01:07because the competitive tendering process knocks them out.

1:01:07 > 1:01:11So you have to be big, you have to be able to offer a cheaper model,

1:01:11 > 1:01:13those are often then generic models.

1:01:13 > 1:01:18They are knocking out the specialist services.

1:01:18 > 1:01:21In Haringey alone, they've lost 14 places, three refuges have

1:01:21 > 1:01:22closed one of which is...

1:01:22 > 1:01:25I will put that to Theresa Villiers in a minute, but what about men?

1:01:25 > 1:01:28Men too also suffer from domestic abuse and then the gender inequality

1:01:28 > 1:01:31arguments you put forward doesn't quite cover that's because more

1:01:31 > 1:01:33reporting has meant more men coming forward too.

1:01:33 > 1:01:35Do you accept that?

1:01:35 > 1:01:37Actually it really does cover it because it's about power

1:01:37 > 1:01:38and because the vast...

1:01:38 > 1:01:44So two things, if I may, to answer that.

1:01:44 > 1:01:46We haven't got long.

1:01:46 > 1:01:47The vast majority of people who experienced domestic

1:01:47 > 1:01:49violence are women.

1:01:49 > 1:01:51The vast majority of men who experience domestic violence -

1:01:51 > 1:01:54or a significant proportion - are in gay relationships.

1:01:54 > 1:01:57There is a significant proportion of men who experienced domestic

1:01:57 > 1:01:59violence as a result of power imbalance, which comes back

1:01:59 > 1:02:06to a general inequality of power.

1:02:06 > 1:02:09Very briefly in the closing seconds, do you accept that those cuts have

1:02:09 > 1:02:11damaged the ability to deal with domestic abuse?

1:02:11 > 1:02:14The Government has been doing its very best to protect

1:02:14 > 1:02:15support services in this area.

1:02:15 > 1:02:19The Mayor of London is sitting on about half a billion of reserves.

1:02:19 > 1:02:21He should be spending some of it on this priority.

1:02:21 > 1:02:23That's all we have time for.

1:02:23 > 1:02:29My thanks to all the guests today and, with that, it's back to Sarah.

1:02:32 > 1:02:34Welcome back.

1:02:34 > 1:02:38Now, they play big in Westminster - but does the rest of the country

1:02:38 > 1:02:40notice big set-piece political moments like this week's Budget?

1:02:40 > 1:02:42Ellie took our not-so-scientific barometer of public opinion,

1:02:42 > 1:02:44the Moodbox, to Yorkshire.

1:02:47 > 1:02:49Two things happened this week to make us think about spending

1:02:49 > 1:02:52and feel like we've got more pounds in our pockets.

1:02:52 > 1:02:57But which was more important?

1:02:57 > 1:02:59That's a question we're asking shoppers here in Leeds today.

1:02:59 > 1:03:00What matters more?

1:03:00 > 1:03:02Is it Black Friday or the Budget?

1:03:05 > 1:03:07Black Friday, because you're out there, you're

1:03:07 > 1:03:08going to get a bargain.

1:03:08 > 1:03:10It's a nice build-up towards Christmas and the Budget,

1:03:10 > 1:03:12they take away from you.

1:03:12 > 1:03:15This is a more fun day than watching Philip Hammond doing the Budget?

1:03:15 > 1:03:18Definitely!

1:03:18 > 1:03:19Is not going to spoil our day today.

1:03:19 > 1:03:22# Cos we are living in a material world

1:03:22 > 1:03:25# And I am a material girl...

1:03:25 > 1:03:27The Budget matters for first-time buyers, with the stamp duty.

1:03:27 > 1:03:28My daughter is buying.

1:03:28 > 1:03:33Do you think Black Friday would put more money

1:03:33 > 1:03:35than the Chancellor?

1:03:35 > 1:03:37Probably.

1:03:37 > 1:03:38Probably.

1:03:38 > 1:03:40I suppose it affects everyone, it's more important.

1:03:40 > 1:03:41And Black Friday is just quite commercialised.

1:03:41 > 1:03:43I suppose I'm here shopping!

1:03:43 > 1:03:45The Budget is more important, think.

1:03:45 > 1:03:49If they get the Budget wrong, Black Friday doesn't mean anything.

1:03:49 > 1:03:51Did they get the Budget wrong?

1:03:51 > 1:03:52I think they get it wrong every year!

1:03:52 > 1:03:55What matters more to you, the Budget or Black Friday?

1:03:55 > 1:03:56Black Friday!

1:03:56 > 1:03:58Because it's cheaper, and I got my coat.

1:03:58 > 1:04:00Did you look at what was in the Budget?

1:04:00 > 1:04:01No!

1:04:01 > 1:04:02# Only boys that save their pennies

1:04:02 > 1:04:06# Make my rainy day

1:04:06 > 1:04:09# Cos we are living in a material world...

1:04:09 > 1:04:11I just think Black Friday is a big con.

1:04:11 > 1:04:12Do you?

1:04:12 > 1:04:13Yes, I do.

1:04:13 > 1:04:15Do you think the Budget was a big con?

1:04:15 > 1:04:18Not for me, but for some people.

1:04:18 > 1:04:20# And I am a material girl

1:04:21 > 1:04:24# Living in a material world...

1:04:25 > 1:04:29What puts more money in your pocket, the Budget or Black Friday?

1:04:29 > 1:04:30Probably Black Friday.

1:04:30 > 1:04:31Yeah!

1:04:31 > 1:04:32Why?

1:04:32 > 1:04:35Yeah, a lot of deals on Black Friday.

1:04:35 > 1:04:39More money in your pocket but, actually, overall, the Budget.

1:04:39 > 1:04:41What's more important, the Budget or Black Friday?

1:04:41 > 1:04:42What's the Budget?

1:04:42 > 1:04:43Well, it was...

1:04:43 > 1:04:46The Chancellor talking about money and stuff on Wednesday?

1:04:46 > 1:04:49Jesus, I'm really rubbish.

1:04:49 > 1:04:50Definitely the Budget.

1:04:50 > 1:04:51Why's that?

1:04:51 > 1:04:56Because I'm not a big shopper.

1:04:56 > 1:04:59Did you pay any attention to any of the bargains being offered

1:04:59 > 1:05:00by the Chancellor on Wednesday?

1:05:00 > 1:05:02I saw stamp duty got rid of.

1:05:02 > 1:05:04But that doesn't apply to us right now.

1:05:04 > 1:05:05And so Black Friday's better?

1:05:05 > 1:05:06Yeah.

1:05:06 > 1:05:08# A material, a material world...

1:05:08 > 1:05:11Well, Black Friday is in full swing in Leeds.

1:05:11 > 1:05:13But shoppers here have discounted that and say

1:05:13 > 1:05:15it is Wednesday's Budget that matters more to them.

1:05:15 > 1:05:17# Living in a material world...

1:05:18 > 1:05:21So that's the view from Leeds on a Budget that self-consciously

1:05:21 > 1:05:25tried to target younger voters with the abolition of stamp duty

1:05:25 > 1:05:28for some first time buyers and extending the young person's

1:05:28 > 1:05:32railcard to rail travellers up to the age of 30.

1:05:32 > 1:05:35In June's election, as subsequent polling revealed,

1:05:35 > 1:05:39the Conservatives trailed Labour by some margin amongst the young.

1:05:39 > 1:05:41I use the word "young", but even those in their 40s

1:05:41 > 1:05:47were more likely to vote Labour than Conservative.

1:05:47 > 1:05:52Will the Budget have addressed any of those problems? Time to turn to

1:05:52 > 1:05:59the panel. Zoe, giveaways to the under 30s, does it make a difference

1:05:59 > 1:06:03to the Tories?The Railcard is actually quite a bad other, it has a

1:06:03 > 1:06:06lot of restrictions. The shortcomings of the Railcard were

1:06:06 > 1:06:11the least bad thing about the idea. It is so trivial, such a failure to

1:06:11 > 1:06:16address what young people are saying about politics. You know, huge debt

1:06:16 > 1:06:19burden is at the end of university, the impossibility of joining the

1:06:19 > 1:06:23housing market. They are talking about massive, structural changes to

1:06:23 > 1:06:32the economy that make different to our lives. The Conservatives come

1:06:32 > 1:06:35back with a Railcard? It is almost like they are sabotaging themselves.

1:06:35 > 1:06:40It wasn't just stamp duty, also stimulating the market to make more

1:06:40 > 1:06:43houses available. Would that have been noticed by younger voters that

1:06:43 > 1:06:47have not been turning to the Conservatives?The housing market is

1:06:47 > 1:06:52still massively broken, it is not entirely clear that the

1:06:52 > 1:06:56Chancellor's, what he called a £44 billion package, experts said 15

1:06:56 > 1:06:59billion or less, if that will fix the problems and started to bring

1:06:59 > 1:07:02down the price of houses, it is not clear that the housing package will

1:07:02 > 1:07:08result in a large number of extra homes being built. Ultimately, in

1:07:08 > 1:07:11the big picture, this was a forgettable Budget. That is just how

1:07:11 > 1:07:15Theresa May and Philip Hammond pretty much wanted it. They did not

1:07:15 > 1:07:18want it to be a Budget that went down in flames because it was

1:07:18 > 1:07:21defeated in the Commons or because there was a Tory rebellion about

1:07:21 > 1:07:28some nefarious tax raising measure. What it did, worryingly for the

1:07:28 > 1:07:32Conservatives, is that it accepted some of Labour's arguments. It said,

1:07:32 > 1:07:37we know that the NHS is a bit underfunded, so we will give it some

1:07:37 > 1:07:40money. We know there is a problem in the housing market, we will put some

1:07:40 > 1:07:45money to that. It accepted some of Labour's solutions. Because tax

1:07:45 > 1:07:49rising it's too hard, we are going to borrow to get out of the

1:07:49 > 1:07:52political problems, make do and mend the political problem is that there

1:07:52 > 1:07:55are. Having gone some way towards acknowledging the problems and

1:07:55 > 1:07:58solutions that Labour offer, they have a hell of a job trying to

1:07:58 > 1:08:06convince people that going whole hog that Labour suggests is the wrong

1:08:06 > 1:08:08answer. That is one of the big problems they face.I don't think

1:08:08 > 1:08:11the Tories really stand a chance on this question with younger voters

1:08:11 > 1:08:15until they have a change of leadership, maybe even a couple of

1:08:15 > 1:08:18leaders before then. They are only really going to connect to people

1:08:18 > 1:08:21below the age of 45 when those voters see somebody that does not

1:08:21 > 1:08:29look like the identikit concept of a Tory. There is a trust deficit. The

1:08:29 > 1:08:38Tories are regarded by younger voters as the nasty party.Earlier

1:08:38 > 1:08:44we heard from Mairead McGuinness and Owen Paterson on the issue of the

1:08:44 > 1:08:48Irish border, as the war of words continues to ramp up.I am troubled

1:08:48 > 1:08:52this morning because I have read a quote from Arlene Fox, the trade

1:08:52 > 1:08:58Secretary, saying that the border issue will not be solved until the

1:08:58 > 1:09:02final stage, until we reach a decision on trade. I hope that the

1:09:02 > 1:09:06United Kingdom is not holding the Irish situation to ransom. It is far

1:09:06 > 1:09:12too serious and far too critical.It is very irresponsible politicians to

1:09:12 > 1:09:16make a statement like that, saying they are going to force and

1:09:16 > 1:09:19blackmailed the UK into having a special status for Northern Ireland

1:09:19 > 1:09:23outside the rest of the UK. That is a really dangerous thing to do and

1:09:23 > 1:09:27they should stop doing it. There are perfectly sensible technical

1:09:27 > 1:09:31solutions to the problem of the border.Let's pick up some of that

1:09:31 > 1:09:37with the panel. It was quite bad-tempered, I have to say, for two

1:09:37 > 1:09:41people that are supposed to be the best of our lives, the UK and Irish

1:09:41 > 1:09:49government. The row is heating up? Yes, feelings are running very high.

1:09:49 > 1:09:53There is quite a lot of hype about this and I don't think it is likely

1:09:53 > 1:09:57that the EU will put Ireland in a position where Ireland has to Beto

1:09:57 > 1:10:09moving forward on the trade talks. -- veto. The solution probably lies

1:10:09 > 1:10:15in phase two. What could be happening, and this is why I think

1:10:15 > 1:10:22December is so critical, if there is not a breakthrough in December, I

1:10:22 > 1:10:27think the atmosphere changes and Britain effectively needs to start

1:10:27 > 1:10:35preparing for there being no deal. It is possible that Emmanuel Macron,

1:10:35 > 1:10:38France, being quite difficult with the British, could use the Irish

1:10:38 > 1:10:43argument to say that the 27 is not satisfied with the progress. I think

1:10:43 > 1:10:48at that point, it would be pushing the British Government too far.I

1:10:48 > 1:10:58basically agree with Ian. I don't think we need to put on the table a

1:10:58 > 1:11:01fully fledged plan for how to deal with the Irish border. I think what

1:11:01 > 1:11:04is going on is a certain amount of choreography for the Irish in

1:11:04 > 1:11:08Brussels and London, so that the British make clear we are taking

1:11:08 > 1:11:12this incredibly seriously. There needs to be warm words, in the sense

1:11:12 > 1:11:16of progress. As Ian says, you can't have a plan until we know what the

1:11:16 > 1:11:18end state relationship with the European Union is going to be. It

1:11:18 > 1:11:24does look like there will be a lot of talk. I am not sure it will

1:11:24 > 1:11:27result in a catastrophic failure in three weeks' time. However, this

1:11:27 > 1:11:34remains possibly the most pivotal moment in the talks. Theresa May has

1:11:34 > 1:11:37to have satisfied the European Union politically. We will knowing about

1:11:37 > 1:11:42two weeks whether she is going to achieve that or not. If she doesn't,

1:11:42 > 1:11:46I think we're going to be right back into government in crisis territory.

1:11:46 > 1:11:52She has made wanted to get progress towards a a fundamental aim of her

1:11:52 > 1:11:58premiership, and I don't think that if that looks like it is going to

1:11:58 > 1:12:01collapse you will be in a strong position.Is that right, absolutely

1:12:01 > 1:12:05crucial that the EU we want to trade talks?It is still unclear whether

1:12:05 > 1:12:10the end of the customs union and single market are a done deal within

1:12:10 > 1:12:12the Conservative Party. Owen Paterson is talking as though that

1:12:12 > 1:12:18is what people voted for, of course it isn't.It is what he believes.We

1:12:18 > 1:12:23don't know that is the Conservative position. The idea this is somehow

1:12:23 > 1:12:26Europe or Island's fault for not moving forward, how can we negotiate

1:12:26 > 1:12:30on something when we don't know what we want? I get no sense that we know

1:12:30 > 1:12:35what we want.There is a lot of blame to go round. The point is that

1:12:35 > 1:12:40the crunch is coming sooner than people anticipate. If there is an

1:12:40 > 1:12:43progress in December, effectively there will be no progress until we

1:12:43 > 1:12:52get too -- until we get to March. Psychologically, it will be a very

1:12:52 > 1:12:57important moment and Britain will have to be getting ready one way or

1:12:57 > 1:13:02another.It would increase the possibility of no deal?I think

1:13:02 > 1:13:05there would be a huge amount of opposition to the idea of going into

1:13:05 > 1:13:08a no deal scenario just because the Conservative Party, which drove

1:13:08 > 1:13:18this, couldn't make its mind up.One of the frustrating things about the

1:13:18 > 1:13:22whole debate is that Theresa May does not take a lead. She is one of

1:13:22 > 1:13:25the most frustrating people to watch, because she always reacts to

1:13:25 > 1:13:29everybody else.Thank you very much.

1:13:29 > 1:13:30That's all for today.

1:13:30 > 1:13:32Thanks to all my guests.

1:13:32 > 1:13:34Join me again next Sunday at 11am here on BBC One.

1:13:34 > 1:13:35Until then, bye-bye.