03/12/2017

0:00:39 > 0:00:40Good morning, everyone.

0:00:40 > 0:00:42I'm Sarah Smith.

0:00:42 > 0:00:45Welcome to the Sunday Politics - your essential guide to the biggest

0:00:45 > 0:00:46political stories of the week.

0:00:46 > 0:00:50Coming up on today's show...

0:00:50 > 0:00:52Ahead of a crucial EU summit, is Theresa May on the brink

0:00:52 > 0:00:55of a breakthrough on Brexit?

0:00:55 > 0:00:59Or, after a slightly torrid week, is she in danger of being

0:00:59 > 0:01:01overtaken by events?

0:01:01 > 0:01:03The ex-Labour minister Alan Milburn quits as chairman

0:01:03 > 0:01:06of the Social Mobility Commission, saying he has "little hope"

0:01:06 > 0:01:08the current government can make the "necessary" progress.

0:01:08 > 0:01:10What does this mean for a Prime Minister who vowed

0:01:10 > 0:01:13to fight against the "burning injustice" of inequality?

0:01:13 > 0:01:16And, we speak to the academic who's carrying out economic "wargaming"

0:01:16 > 0:01:21scenarios for the Labour party, in the event it wins power.

0:01:21 > 0:01:24People are going to trust us with their jobs and their pensions

0:01:24 > 0:01:26and their livelihoods.

0:01:26 > 0:01:28We've got to show we know what we're doing.

0:01:28 > 0:01:34This seems like common sense to me.

0:01:34 > 0:01:37In London, he is the man with the plan but can mayor,

0:01:37 > 0:01:40Sadiq Khan's vision for the capital really solve the housing crisis?

0:01:47 > 0:01:49Yes, all that coming up in the programme.

0:01:49 > 0:01:53And to help guide me through all the week's

0:01:53 > 0:01:55twists and turns, I'm joined by Tom Newton Dunn,

0:01:55 > 0:01:57Isabel Oakeshott, and Steve Richards.

0:01:57 > 0:02:00Now, the breaking news this morning is the resignation of Alan Milburn -

0:02:00 > 0:02:03the ex-Labour minister who, for the last five years, has chaired

0:02:03 > 0:02:04the Social Mobility Commission.

0:02:04 > 0:02:06He says the Government is too preoccupied with Brexit

0:02:06 > 0:02:08to focus on social justice.

0:02:08 > 0:02:13We'll be assessing the significance of that in a moment.

0:02:13 > 0:02:16But first, if that relationship has turned sour for the Prime Minister,

0:02:16 > 0:02:20it wasn't the only one this week.

0:02:20 > 0:02:23Like all relationships, our liaison with our European neighbours

0:02:23 > 0:02:27has had its ups and downs.

0:02:27 > 0:02:31Theresa May wants a deep and special partnership after Brexit.

0:02:31 > 0:02:35Thus far, money has been the main obstacle to

0:02:35 > 0:02:38an amicable divorce.

0:02:38 > 0:02:41This week, a possible breakthrough.

0:02:41 > 0:02:44He once said "the EU could go whistle if they

0:02:44 > 0:02:48asked for too much," now he's practically dancing with joy.

0:02:48 > 0:02:51It's a fantastic opportunity now to get going.

0:02:51 > 0:02:54Others are always harder to please.

0:02:54 > 0:02:57It is not worth nearly 50 billion sterling.

0:02:57 > 0:03:03No deal is better than a bad deal and this is a very bad deal indeed.

0:03:03 > 0:03:05Brussels may be on board with the divorce bill but

0:03:05 > 0:03:07there's trouble over the Irish border.

0:03:07 > 0:03:11If the UK offer is unacceptable for Ireland, it will

0:03:11 > 0:03:16also be unacceptable for the EU.

0:03:16 > 0:03:19Reports suggest Stormont could be given more power to agree bespoke

0:03:19 > 0:03:21trading arrangements with the Republic but that, in turn,

0:03:21 > 0:03:25enraged Theresa May's partners in Parliament.

0:03:25 > 0:03:28The DUP could walk out of their marriage of convenience

0:03:28 > 0:03:31with the Tories if the Government allows Northern Ireland to diverge

0:03:31 > 0:03:36from the rest of the UK.

0:03:36 > 0:03:39If there is any hint that in order to placate Dublin and the EU,

0:03:39 > 0:03:41they are prepared to have Northern Ireland treated differently

0:03:41 > 0:03:48than the rest of the United Kingdom, then they can't rely on our vote.

0:03:48 > 0:03:49But it was the "special relationship" that came

0:03:49 > 0:03:53under most strain.

0:03:53 > 0:03:55As Donald Trump re-tweeted Islamophobia videos,

0:03:55 > 0:03:58posted by the far right group, Britain First.

0:03:58 > 0:04:01Denounced by Downing Street, the President took to Twitter again,

0:04:01 > 0:04:03telling Theresa May directly, "Don't focus on me,

0:04:03 > 0:04:08we are doing just fine."

0:04:08 > 0:04:11The Prime Minister on a surprise trip to the Middle East was plunged

0:04:11 > 0:04:13into a very public row.

0:04:13 > 0:04:15I'm very clear that re-tweeting from Britain

0:04:15 > 0:04:19First was the wrong thing to do.

0:04:19 > 0:04:25The May-Trump mini break in the UK might be off.

0:04:25 > 0:04:27I certainly don't think he should be should be coming next year.

0:04:27 > 0:04:31Next year is supposed to be a happy event for the Royal family.

0:04:31 > 0:04:33We certainly don't want Trump turning up in the middle

0:04:33 > 0:04:34of all of that.

0:04:34 > 0:04:37Meanwhile, Labour leader and GQ magazine cover model declared

0:04:37 > 0:04:41himself to be an enemy of greedy bankers.

0:04:41 > 0:04:45So, when they say, we're a threat, they're right.

0:04:45 > 0:04:47We are a threat to a damaging and failed

0:04:47 > 0:04:51system that's rigged for the few.

0:04:51 > 0:04:53The Prime Minister's closest political

0:04:53 > 0:04:56friend stood in for her at the dispatch box on Wednesday

0:04:56 > 0:04:58while she was abroad but fresh questions emerged later

0:04:58 > 0:05:00in the week about whether he'd used a Parliamentary

0:05:00 > 0:05:06computer to view pornography some nine years ago.

0:05:06 > 0:05:09Theresa May will meet be EU Commission President

0:05:09 > 0:05:11Jean-Claude Juncker tomorrow.

0:05:11 > 0:05:13They will discuss the revised offer on the divorce

0:05:13 > 0:05:15bill and whether talks can now move on to trade

0:05:15 > 0:05:17post-Brexit.

0:05:17 > 0:05:20It has not been an easy relationship with leaks from

0:05:20 > 0:05:22previous meetings finding their way into the German press.

0:05:22 > 0:05:32Hopefully, they can put all of that behind them.

0:05:32 > 0:05:37So, we will talk through one of the top stories for the week with our

0:05:37 > 0:05:41panel in the studio. We are going to be looking ahead to what is

0:05:41 > 0:05:45happening in Brussels. The Prime Minister is going over for a working

0:05:45 > 0:05:48lunch with Jean-Claude Juncker tomorrow. We are always saying we

0:05:48 > 0:05:53have reached a critical stage in the negotiations.Is it a critical

0:05:53 > 0:06:00point? It is. It is endgame of chapter one. There are two chapters,

0:06:00 > 0:06:05divorce and then trade. This is the end of the first half, at the 43rd

0:06:05 > 0:06:11minute. It is probably 0-0. We need to get over the line and into

0:06:11 > 0:06:16half-time and into the second half. Wyatt is so critical is the Prime

0:06:16 > 0:06:21Minister, in the next few days, she cannot wait till the 14th or 15th of

0:06:21 > 0:06:27December, have to choose to govern is to choose. One side is saying

0:06:27 > 0:06:32this is what we will act set to move on to the second phase and the

0:06:32 > 0:06:37Eurosceptics will say, we will not access to any of that. She has to

0:06:37 > 0:06:44get off the fence. One is what they will do about easy JN the other

0:06:44 > 0:06:50about the Irish border. To divert or not diverged?This is only the end

0:06:50 > 0:06:56of the first half of the process. If the EU agrees we can move onto the

0:06:56 > 0:07:02second half. That is not guaranteed, is it?Tom's analogy, I will not go

0:07:02 > 0:07:11too far with it because I'm not a football expert. Brexiteers feel it

0:07:11 > 0:07:19is more like 1-0 to the EU. There is a circulation today, leave means

0:07:19 > 0:07:25leave, which is signed by eminent business people and academics. Only

0:07:25 > 0:07:29a few MPs, about five of them on now. We were discussing this earlier

0:07:29 > 0:07:33and Tom made the point it is quite a hostile thing for a Tory MP to sign

0:07:33 > 0:07:38a letter like this. Many more agree with the contents of the letter,

0:07:38 > 0:07:44which sets out the set of conditions the PM must not agree to, in their

0:07:44 > 0:07:49view, must not capitulate to as the negotiation goes forward. It is

0:07:49 > 0:07:53about when free movement of people ends and we retain the power to go

0:07:53 > 0:07:58to WTO if all else fails.We be discussing this further with our

0:07:58 > 0:08:04guests and find out what the EU had think about it. The other big news

0:08:04 > 0:08:07of the morning is that Alan Milburn resigned from the social mobility

0:08:07 > 0:08:19commission. He told and remarked earlier why. -- Andrew Marr.

0:08:19 > 0:08:21In various social mobility roles, I've served a Labour Prime Minister,

0:08:21 > 0:08:24a coalition Prime Minister, and now, a Conservative one.

0:08:24 > 0:08:27I've done so because I care deeply about the issue and I believe

0:08:27 > 0:08:28that it matters profoundly to the country.

0:08:28 > 0:08:31I've reached the conclusion, sadly, that with the current government,

0:08:31 > 0:08:33there is little if any hope of progress being made

0:08:33 > 0:08:35towards the fairer Britain that the Prime Minister

0:08:35 > 0:08:36has talked about.

0:08:36 > 0:08:38The Government, probably for understandable reasons,

0:08:38 > 0:08:40is focused on Brexit, and seems to lack the bandwidth

0:08:40 > 0:08:43to be able to translate the rhetoric of healing social division

0:08:43 > 0:08:48and promoting social justice into a reality.

0:08:48 > 0:08:51That is a pretty damning statement, the Government does not have the

0:08:51 > 0:08:58bandwidth to do with anything other than Brexit.It is true. Brexit is

0:08:58 > 0:09:02sucking up all political energy much practical energy in Whitehall.

0:09:02 > 0:09:07Beyond that, the significance of this is not huge. I think these

0:09:07 > 0:09:12commissions float uneasily in government. If you make policy on

0:09:12 > 0:09:16social justice, you can do that within a government department if

0:09:16 > 0:09:21you are serious about it. I think it was set up partly with good

0:09:21 > 0:09:25intentions in the coalition period, partly to break off the Blairites

0:09:25 > 0:09:30from Labour and get them involved with these so called modernising

0:09:30 > 0:09:36Conservative project, and the fact that it is ending, I don't think in

0:09:36 > 0:09:40itself is significant. But he is absolutely... By the way they were

0:09:40 > 0:09:44never entirely clear on policy terms. The fact he said I am not a

0:09:44 > 0:09:51status quo nor am I with Theresa May, what are going to be the

0:09:51 > 0:09:55mediating agencies? There are some huge issues to address. Whether this

0:09:55 > 0:10:00was the appropriate way to do it in the first place, I have doubts about

0:10:00 > 0:10:02it.Thank you for that.

0:10:02 > 0:10:05Well, to pick up on all of that, I'm joined by the former

0:10:05 > 0:10:07Conservative leader, Michael Howard.

0:10:07 > 0:10:11Thank you for coming in. Let's start with the claim by Alan Milburn that

0:10:11 > 0:10:15the Government does not have the time or capacity to do anything

0:10:15 > 0:10:20other than Brexit. That must be a concern to you as well.I think he

0:10:20 > 0:10:25is wrong. I share his concern about social mobility. When I was the

0:10:25 > 0:10:29leader of the Conservative Party used to make speeches about the

0:10:29 > 0:10:32British dream and the importance of social mobility. There is always

0:10:32 > 0:10:43more to be done but we have actually made a lot of progress. Can I give

0:10:43 > 0:10:45you some examples? We would all agree that education is key to

0:10:45 > 0:10:49social mobility. We have 1.9 million children now, 1.9 million children

0:10:49 > 0:10:54more than in 2010 in good or outstanding schools.His complaint

0:10:54 > 0:10:59was not that nothing has been done since 2010 but nothing can be done

0:10:59 > 0:11:05now.It is still happening. Income inequality is at its lowest level

0:11:05 > 0:11:12for 30 years. More taxes being paid than under the Labour years. One of

0:11:12 > 0:11:18the worst things that can happen to a child is to live in a workless

0:11:18 > 0:11:21household. The number of workless households has been shrinking. And

0:11:21 > 0:11:29implement is at its lowest level since 1975.-- unemployment. Theresa

0:11:29 > 0:11:33May, when she became Prime Minister last year, said this is a country of

0:11:33 > 0:11:38burning injustice.It is. There is always more to be done. You say it

0:11:38 > 0:11:42is in the past. This morning we have had an announcement that a

0:11:42 > 0:11:47considerable amount of extra money will be devoted in helping children

0:11:47 > 0:11:54facing mental health challenges in our schools. That is important as

0:11:54 > 0:11:57well in relation to social mobility. Of course there is more to be done.

0:11:57 > 0:12:00I think quite a lot of progress has been made on social mobility and

0:12:00 > 0:12:06should not forget that.Let's move on to wrecks it. You will have read

0:12:06 > 0:12:12reports that she will offer a divorce bill somewhere between 40

0:12:12 > 0:12:16billion and 50 billion euros, maybe slightly more. You said back in

0:12:16 > 0:12:19April that you would be astonished if the bill was anything like 50

0:12:19 > 0:12:26billion euros for the you must be producer prize.We all started off

0:12:26 > 0:12:34with aspirations. -- you must be pretty surprised. I do not know what

0:12:34 > 0:12:39the sum will be. Whatever it is it will be a fraction of the amount we

0:12:39 > 0:12:43have paid into the European Union over the last 40 years and would pay

0:12:43 > 0:12:50into the European Union for the next 40.You are now fairly relaxed about

0:12:50 > 0:12:56something around this mark?I have confidence in the Prime Minister and

0:12:56 > 0:13:00David Davis. I want to let them decide what is the best deal. I'm

0:13:00 > 0:13:06confident we'll get a good deal. I'm confident in the Prime Minister and

0:13:06 > 0:13:11David Davies.You know the more money we spend on the divorce the

0:13:11 > 0:13:21more bashes nevertheless many we have to spend on other things. Our

0:13:21 > 0:13:25guest last week felt it had to be delivered to keep faith in the

0:13:25 > 0:13:31process.In the budget a few days ago the Government promised more

0:13:31 > 0:13:37than an extra £350 million for the health service, running into almost

0:13:37 > 0:13:43£2 billion.They did not promise that in the budget?Over time, more

0:13:43 > 0:13:47money will be available when we are out. These payments, I don't know

0:13:47 > 0:13:52what the sum would be, are going to be spread out over many years. The

0:13:52 > 0:13:56annual bill will not be anything like that. In the end there will be

0:13:56 > 0:14:02more money to spend on the health service and other desirable things

0:14:02 > 0:14:05because we will not have to make this very large, annual contribution

0:14:05 > 0:14:10we were making.You have always been a committed Eurosceptic. Do not

0:14:10 > 0:14:14worry that the European Union seem to be having it their way? They

0:14:14 > 0:14:19wanted to discuss divorce before the trade deals. We agreed to that. The

0:14:19 > 0:14:24divorce bill seems to have gone up substantially since Theresa May was

0:14:24 > 0:14:27speaking in her Florence speech. They are getting what they want as

0:14:27 > 0:14:33we are going through the process and we seem to be capitulating.I do not

0:14:33 > 0:14:38think that is fair. There is a huge amount of posturing, which always

0:14:38 > 0:14:42goes on in negotiations. The approach of the European Union is in

0:14:42 > 0:14:48breach of Article 50. Article 50 says the arrangements for the

0:14:48 > 0:14:53departure of a member state have to take into account the future

0:14:53 > 0:14:57relationship of that state with the European Union. You cannot take

0:14:57 > 0:15:00something into account if you are not prepared to talk about it. They

0:15:00 > 0:15:06are in breach of Article 50. That is the approach they have chosen. I am

0:15:06 > 0:15:12confident. I think we will move forward to the next phase, to pursue

0:15:12 > 0:15:15Tom's analogy, I hope they will not be injury time at the end of the

0:15:15 > 0:15:28first half and I hope we will get an agreement this month and then we can

0:15:28 > 0:15:30start talking turkey.Do you agree with the leave means leave letter in

0:15:30 > 0:15:33the paper today without demanding the UK be free to sign employment

0:15:33 > 0:15:37trade deals and note end to restriction is by the European Court

0:15:37 > 0:15:44of Justice?I share the aspirations contained in the letter.You did not

0:15:44 > 0:15:52sign it.No.Did they ask you to? No. I am not inclined to make

0:15:52 > 0:15:57demands at this stage. I think they should be allowed to get on with the

0:15:57 > 0:16:00negotiations. I have confidence in their ability to do so. I'm

0:16:00 > 0:16:04confident that in the end will get a good deal in the interests of the UK

0:16:04 > 0:16:08and of the European Union because there is a great commonality of

0:16:08 > 0:16:13interest between the two of us to have a good relationship, a deep and

0:16:13 > 0:16:18special relationship the Prime Minister has spoken of.You are

0:16:18 > 0:16:22trying not to be a back-seat driver. As a former leader of the Tory Party

0:16:22 > 0:16:26you probably understand how annoying that will be that you are an

0:16:26 > 0:16:31interested party entitled to your view on this. Iain Duncan Smith is

0:16:31 > 0:16:35in the papers saying how important it is to end the authority of the

0:16:35 > 0:16:45European Court of Justice. Is that a red line for you?

0:16:45 > 0:16:48I have every confidence in the Prime Minister and in David Davis and I

0:16:48 > 0:16:52think they will end up with a good deal.They're just going to pick up

0:16:52 > 0:16:58with our panel here. Listening to Michael Howard there, very carefully

0:16:58 > 0:17:04trying not to step on the Prime Minister's toes, but clearly he

0:17:04 > 0:17:08shares some sympathy with people who do want to put some red lines on

0:17:08 > 0:17:12her?I know Michael Howard is a forensic follower of politics, so

0:17:12 > 0:17:16I'm surprised he is completely confident about Theresa May

0:17:16 > 0:17:20delivering this, given that when she returned from the last summit, when

0:17:20 > 0:17:24she made her House of Commons statement, she was clear, to my

0:17:24 > 0:17:28surprise, actually, that during the transition, I am not surprised in

0:17:28 > 0:17:32how it turned out but I am surprised she was so clear, that the European

0:17:32 > 0:17:37court would hold some sway. It has two, because if the transition is to

0:17:37 > 0:17:42be effective, it means one way or another we will still sort of be in

0:17:42 > 0:17:45the single market and Customs union for a time and therefore the

0:17:45 > 0:17:50European court will hold some sway. And she said it. I saw Jacob

0:17:50 > 0:17:55Rees-Mogg's response of horror. But she did say it. And so that is

0:17:55 > 0:17:57already I think part of the equation. So the response of her

0:17:57 > 0:18:07Brexiteers on this will be pivotal. Iain Duncan Smith is not alone in

0:18:07 > 0:18:09being absolutely resolute that the ECJ will have nothing to do with

0:18:09 > 0:18:13Britain?Absolutely, and I think that the concern amongst the harder

0:18:13 > 0:18:20line Brexiteers is that this transitional arrangement is a

0:18:20 > 0:18:22continuation of the status quo, and that it might even slip. Now, the

0:18:22 > 0:18:25Prime Minister has try to be reassuring on that, and there have

0:18:25 > 0:18:31been indications it might slip a few weeks but definitely not longer. But

0:18:31 > 0:18:38I think that Brexit MPs want more assurances that this will not end up

0:18:38 > 0:18:41just being kicked into the long grass.Will those assurances be

0:18:41 > 0:18:44given?I don't think they will be. She is going to have to compromise.

0:18:44 > 0:18:50The other choice is to walk away. A perfectly admirable choice but it is

0:18:50 > 0:18:53a choice she needs to make. The interesting question is, what do

0:18:53 > 0:18:59these people plan to do about it? What does Michael Howard plan to do

0:18:59 > 0:19:07if the £45 billion bill, which he is now accepting, it would appear, the

0:19:07 > 0:19:12four MPs and some other quite senior party figures, what do they plan to

0:19:12 > 0:19:15do if the Prime Minister compromises? Will they vote against

0:19:15 > 0:19:22it, will they put their considerable legislative weight, which Michael

0:19:22 > 0:19:25Howard could do in the House of Lords, against it?Even though

0:19:25 > 0:19:30you're being very diplomatic today, is there a point at which you would

0:19:30 > 0:19:34speak out if something you saw as fundamentally unacceptable occurred?

0:19:34 > 0:19:40That is a very hypothetical question, Sarah!The idea that you

0:19:40 > 0:19:43might find something out of Brussels being unacceptable is hypothetical?

0:19:43 > 0:19:50Lets wait and see. I have said and I am in danger of repeating myself, I

0:19:50 > 0:19:54have every confidence in the Prime Minister and in David Davis. I think

0:19:54 > 0:20:00we will end up with a good deal. You would in expect in negotiations like

0:20:00 > 0:20:06this an awful lot of posturing.Let me into you because I need to ask

0:20:06 > 0:20:11you about one other thing before we go. Damian Green, you will know

0:20:11 > 0:20:16there have been more stories reported this week around the

0:20:16 > 0:20:17accusation that he viewed pornography on a Parliamentary

0:20:17 > 0:20:22computer, something he absolutely resolutely denies. If it is

0:20:22 > 0:20:25discovered that he wasn't telling the truth when he told the Prime

0:20:25 > 0:20:30Minister he hadn't done this, would it be a resigning matter?I don't

0:20:30 > 0:20:34know, that is another hypothetical question. Damian was my

0:20:34 > 0:20:37Parliamentary neighbour for many years, he has denied it and I

0:20:37 > 0:20:41believe him and I agree with those very senior figures yesterday who

0:20:41 > 0:20:46condemned the leaking of information by these retired police officers. I

0:20:46 > 0:20:52think that's a very serious matter indeed. Policing in this country is

0:20:52 > 0:21:03based on trust between the police and the public. And if we have...

0:21:03 > 0:21:08Michael Howard, thank you very much for talking to us.

0:21:08 > 0:21:11The EU has warned Theresa May that she must satisfy Irish demands,

0:21:11 > 0:21:13if the Brexit negotiations are to move forward this week.

0:21:13 > 0:21:15But ahead of a crucial meeting between Theresa May

0:21:15 > 0:21:18and Jean-Claude Juncker tomorrow, it seems there is still work to do.

0:21:18 > 0:21:20Here's the Irish Foreign Minister, Simon Coveney,

0:21:20 > 0:21:26speaking this morning.

0:21:26 > 0:21:31There is no desire in Ireland to delay this process. But at the same

0:21:31 > 0:21:33time we have irresponsibility as a government to represent the

0:21:33 > 0:21:37interests on the island of Ireland, north and south. Let's not forget

0:21:37 > 0:21:40that next year will be the 20th anniversary of the Good Friday

0:21:40 > 0:21:44Agreement, which is the basis for the peace process, and relations

0:21:44 > 0:21:48between Britain and Ireland on the island of Ireland. And we believe

0:21:48 > 0:21:54that as an island, Ireland is uniquely vulnerable and exposed to a

0:21:54 > 0:21:59potential bad outcome from Brexit.

0:21:59 > 0:22:01With me now is the Shadow International Trade

0:22:01 > 0:22:06Secretary, Barry Gardiner.

0:22:06 > 0:22:09Obviously, it is absolutely crucial that a resolution is found to this

0:22:09 > 0:22:13problem - what is Labour's position? I think you have to proceed here on

0:22:13 > 0:22:17the basis of principles. The first principle is, do nothing that

0:22:17 > 0:22:21damages the peace process. The second principle is, do nothing that

0:22:21 > 0:22:27averages the economy. And by that I mean both the economy and Northern

0:22:27 > 0:22:33Ireland, in Ireland as a whole and in the UK and Ireland as a whole.

0:22:33 > 0:22:39Now, that means that we have to... But that's the impossible conundrum,

0:22:39 > 0:22:42how to do all of those things at once?It can't be impossible,

0:22:42 > 0:22:45because we've got to do it. Of course it is being made much more

0:22:45 > 0:22:49difficult by the government's red lines on this. And the government

0:22:49 > 0:22:54has stated very publicly and clearly that it wants to come out of the

0:22:54 > 0:22:57customs union and the single market. And of course, what actually creates

0:22:57 > 0:23:01checks at the border is when you have regulator we variants and when

0:23:01 > 0:23:05you have product standards that are different. So, that means that you

0:23:05 > 0:23:09have to check what's coming in and out for any tariffs that you wish to

0:23:09 > 0:23:15impose. Now, that's why it has been, I think and my party thinks, foolish

0:23:15 > 0:23:20to have removed the structural possibilities which lie in the

0:23:20 > 0:23:25customs union or the single market, from what the government's

0:23:25 > 0:23:30negotiating position is.That's very interesting, because I can see

0:23:30 > 0:23:33clearly, and so can the Irish government, exactly how staying in

0:23:33 > 0:23:36the customs union and the single market would help resolve the

0:23:36 > 0:23:40question for the island of Ireland, but also it raises questions for the

0:23:40 > 0:23:43United Kingdom. It is also interesting because if we have a

0:23:43 > 0:23:46look at what you say back in July, who didn't sound quite as pleased

0:23:46 > 0:23:52about the single market, when you said we would in effect become a

0:23:52 > 0:23:57vassal state, obliged to pay into the EU budget and having even less

0:23:57 > 0:24:00sovereignty than we do now - you weren't so keen on the single market

0:24:00 > 0:24:03then?I am not so keen on the single market membership as opposed to

0:24:03 > 0:24:07being a member of the EU. Single market membership without being a

0:24:07 > 0:24:11member of the EU means that you do not have a say in the rules which

0:24:11 > 0:24:16you have to abide by.But we're leaving the EU, let's take that as a

0:24:16 > 0:24:21given.Let's talk about where we are going forward. I was setting out

0:24:21 > 0:24:26very clearly, and I don't think you would disagree with what I said, I

0:24:26 > 0:24:29was setting out very clearly the applications of leaving the EU in

0:24:29 > 0:24:33the way that the government had set out. And those implications are

0:24:33 > 0:24:38clear. I believe I set them out correctly. Where we are now is, we

0:24:38 > 0:24:43have to find a solution to this problem. Simon Coveney was actually

0:24:43 > 0:24:46earlier very clear in saying that you don't have to have a full

0:24:46 > 0:24:53solution in phase one, but there has to be the real expectation that

0:24:53 > 0:24:58we're going to be able to resolve it in phase two. The first thing that

0:24:58 > 0:25:01both sides need to say here is that we will look at the Common Travel

0:25:01 > 0:25:04Area, which has existed since 1922, and that should be part and parcel

0:25:04 > 0:25:07of the deal going forward. The second element that I think is

0:25:07 > 0:25:14really important here is to understand precisely what the peace

0:25:14 > 0:25:18settlement was, when in the Good Friday Agreement in 1998 we set out

0:25:18 > 0:25:23that there should be no security checks at the border. That was

0:25:23 > 0:25:26critically important. But of course, security checks in those days were

0:25:26 > 0:25:30in place because of the situation, the military, paramilitary

0:25:30 > 0:25:35situation. But when those security checks were taken away, because we

0:25:35 > 0:25:41were members of the single market and because we were members of the

0:25:41 > 0:25:44customs union, there were no additional customs checks. Now, to

0:25:44 > 0:25:47say that you order the Good Friday Agreement and have no security

0:25:47 > 0:25:52checks, with all the military paraphernalia that goes with that,

0:25:52 > 0:25:59does not mean that you cannot have typified customs checks. But those

0:25:59 > 0:26:02customs checks will only be put in place if the government wants to

0:26:02 > 0:26:08deregulate. My party doesn't. My party doesn't want to deregulate, we

0:26:08 > 0:26:14don't want to impose these terrorists. The government is in a

0:26:14 > 0:26:17bind here, because most of the key players around of Brexit want to

0:26:17 > 0:26:21deregulate, and that means there have to be tariffs, and that means

0:26:21 > 0:26:24they have to be imposed at a border. Jeremy Corbyn yesterday refused to

0:26:24 > 0:26:29rule out the possibility of a second referendum on our EU membership - is

0:26:29 > 0:26:34it now the Labour Party's policy that we might vote again on this?

0:26:34 > 0:26:37No, it's not.Why did he say we have not made any decision on a second

0:26:37 > 0:26:41referendum?That precisely says that it is not, because policy because we

0:26:41 > 0:26:48have not made a decision on it!You could make a decision Ameobi not to

0:26:48 > 0:26:51have a second referendum?Let's be absolutely upfront about this. The

0:26:51 > 0:26:56idea that you would have a second referendum, I think you would say

0:26:56 > 0:26:59you were going to have a second referendum. Like the Liberal

0:26:59 > 0:27:03Democrats have done. That would be to encourage the EU to give you the

0:27:03 > 0:27:09worst possible deal that there was, so that when you're then voted on

0:27:09 > 0:27:14it, everybody would say, we can't possibly go there. The key thing, in

0:27:14 > 0:27:20my view, is that it was always foolish, always foolish, to have a

0:27:20 > 0:27:2450% class one referendum. Because if you are trying to...That's what we

0:27:24 > 0:27:29had, we are now looking at the future. I'm talking about the

0:27:29 > 0:27:34future. It sounds like Jeremy Corbyn is saying it is a possibility that

0:27:34 > 0:27:39Labour might call for one?I am trying to answer your question. I am

0:27:39 > 0:27:43not trying to avoid it. When we go forward, if we were to have another

0:27:43 > 0:27:46referendum on the same lines as we have had, and it were to be 52-48

0:27:46 > 0:27:52the other way, what would that achieve hammered absolutely nothing.

0:27:52 > 0:27:56It would then be game on for a third or fourth referendum. The only way

0:27:56 > 0:27:59in which in my view you could possibly contemplate a second

0:27:59 > 0:28:02referendum would be if you had a threshold which I believe should

0:28:02 > 0:28:07have been there in the first place of a two thirds majority. But that I

0:28:07 > 0:28:10stress is not Labour Party policy, it is not something that we've

0:28:10 > 0:28:18decided, and Jeremy Corbyn articulated that yesterday.Have you

0:28:18 > 0:28:21spoken to Diane Abbott, who has written to two constituents in the

0:28:21 > 0:28:26past month saying she would make the case for a second referendum?Diane

0:28:26 > 0:28:30has already said that letter was poorly worded Pozzo, as she called

0:28:30 > 0:28:36it. I will not make any further comment on it.

0:28:36 > 0:28:39The Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, came in for a bit

0:28:39 > 0:28:41of flak recently when he admitted that Labour was preparing

0:28:41 > 0:28:44for possible negative scenarios, such as a run on the pound,

0:28:44 > 0:28:47if it wins power.

0:28:47 > 0:28:52Speaking on the fringes of his party's conference, he said

0:28:52 > 0:28:54he was carrying out "war game-type scenario planning" in the event

0:28:54 > 0:28:56of an election victory.

0:28:56 > 0:28:57John McDonnell, the man helping Mr McDonald.

0:28:57 > 0:28:59Well, the man helping Mr McDonnell do that is

0:28:59 > 0:29:00the academic Richard Barbrook.

0:29:00 > 0:29:03He's also the man behind 'Games for the Many' -

0:29:03 > 0:29:04the political gaming studio that produced CorbynRun.

0:29:04 > 0:29:10Ellie Price went along to meet him.

0:29:10 > 0:29:12You may have seen some of these during the election.

0:29:12 > 0:29:15In May Bot, the gamer helps the PM shoot, run and slide

0:29:15 > 0:29:16her way to dystopia.

0:29:16 > 0:29:20And then downloaded 150,000 times in the first week of

0:29:20 > 0:29:22the campaign alone, Corbyn Run, which sees Jeremy Corbyn shaking

0:29:22 > 0:29:25down bankers to pay for policy pledges.

0:29:25 > 0:29:27And it's one of the things the Labour leadership think can win

0:29:27 > 0:29:30them the next election.

0:29:30 > 0:29:38It put an idea out there that you can actually

0:29:38 > 0:29:42engage in politics in a way which is both a good laugh,

0:29:42 > 0:29:44enjoy the game.

0:29:44 > 0:29:46But actually it is quite stimulating as well.

0:29:46 > 0:29:48What happened was, that prompted ideas about a

0:29:48 > 0:29:49fair taxation system and the policies that

0:29:49 > 0:29:50were being launched.

0:29:50 > 0:29:52It's new creative way into ideas.

0:29:52 > 0:29:55Are you worried that the Tories will catch on?

0:29:55 > 0:30:00They most probably will catch on.

0:30:00 > 0:30:04But it's not just about the medium, it is about the message as well.

0:30:04 > 0:30:05Richard, what is happening here?

0:30:05 > 0:30:06It's a games jam. Right.

0:30:06 > 0:30:08People are coming together to make app games,

0:30:08 > 0:30:11laptop games, board games, getting ready for the local elections in May

0:30:11 > 0:30:12to propagate Labour's message.

0:30:12 > 0:30:13And is it really working?

0:30:13 > 0:30:16You have 50-odd people here, that's hardly going to change the world.

0:30:16 > 0:30:17No.

0:30:17 > 0:30:22I'm from the punk generation.

0:30:22 > 0:30:23I'm from the punk generation.

0:30:23 > 0:30:26The first time I saw the Sex Pistols, there were 40 or 50

0:30:26 > 0:30:27people in the room.

0:30:27 > 0:30:30Then, in the late-80s, I went to the very early raves

0:30:30 > 0:30:32and again there were very small groups of people.

0:30:32 > 0:30:34Yet, in both cases, these cultures, you start off

0:30:34 > 0:30:36with small groups of people and they can suddenly

0:30:36 > 0:30:38become a mass phenomenom.

0:30:38 > 0:30:40And, I'm reliably informed, it isn't just for computer geeks.

0:30:40 > 0:30:42Yes, we've got people here who are activists and have

0:30:42 > 0:30:45never coded in their lives and they're using tools,

0:30:45 > 0:30:49with which you can make games with no coding skills.

0:30:49 > 0:30:51I'm not sure I believe you but here is a challenge.

0:30:51 > 0:30:53Can you make me a game?

0:30:53 > 0:30:54Yes, I can.

0:30:54 > 0:31:03The challenge begins.

0:31:03 > 0:31:04OK.

0:31:04 > 0:31:05I'm done.

0:31:05 > 0:31:06That took less than half an hour.

0:31:06 > 0:31:07Can I see it?

0:31:07 > 0:31:08Yeah, of course.

0:31:08 > 0:31:12You go up to John and he says, "We're making games to change the

0:31:12 > 0:31:13face of politics."

0:31:13 > 0:31:16Then you go up to Jeremy and he says, "for the many,

0:31:16 > 0:31:17not the few."

0:31:17 > 0:31:20OK, so it's not exactly Super Mario but Labour are looking

0:31:20 > 0:31:22at another kind of gaming, so-called war-gaming.

0:31:22 > 0:31:24Considering possible future scenarios.

0:31:24 > 0:31:26Something John McDonnell talked about at the last

0:31:26 > 0:31:29Labour Conference.

0:31:29 > 0:31:34What if there is a run on the pound, what happens if

0:31:34 > 0:31:36there is this concept of capital flight?

0:31:36 > 0:31:38I don't think there will but you never know

0:31:38 > 0:31:42so we've got a scenario planned for that.

0:31:42 > 0:31:45Richard is also part of the Shadow Treasury

0:31:45 > 0:31:48war-gaming team, who are expected to meet again in the next few weeks.

0:31:48 > 0:31:51If people are going to trust us with their jobs and their pensions

0:31:51 > 0:31:53and their livelihoods, we've got to show

0:31:53 > 0:31:54we know what we are doing.

0:31:54 > 0:31:58This seems like common sense to me.

0:31:58 > 0:32:02From games jams like these, Labour hoped to create a campaign

0:32:02 > 0:32:05tool that will take them to the next level - Downing Street.

0:32:05 > 0:32:08If politics is a game, there are novel ways to play.

0:32:08 > 0:32:14And Richard Barbrook joins me now.

0:32:14 > 0:32:18Thanks for coming in. John McDonnell said the conference he was working

0:32:18 > 0:32:23with you are looking at different scenarios I possibly around on the

0:32:23 > 0:32:29pound. It caused huge amount of controversy. Can you understand why?

0:32:29 > 0:32:34I was actually. Surprised that people are surprised that political

0:32:34 > 0:32:38parties are not doing this. The military, the civil service,

0:32:38 > 0:32:43Corporation Banks, they all do this. The surprise was one would imagine

0:32:43 > 0:32:46that a Labour government neither hoped nor predicted there would be a

0:32:46 > 0:32:54run on the pound and capital flight. Given the fanaticism of the present

0:32:54 > 0:32:58government, probably when we get elected, the pound would likely go

0:32:58 > 0:33:05up. You need to think about these problems beforehand. There are

0:33:05 > 0:33:09potential difficulties to foresee. You can scenario plan for those. You

0:33:09 > 0:33:14can read about problems coming up ahead and you can talk about them

0:33:14 > 0:33:20but actually to experience in a game like atmosphere, the pressures of

0:33:20 > 0:33:23making decisions... You can identify problems and think about solutions,

0:33:23 > 0:33:28try out ideas. If it does not work you can reiterate again and again

0:33:28 > 0:33:33and again.When the Treasury does something like this, with very

0:33:33 > 0:33:37complex statistical models and huge amounts of data, can you feed it

0:33:37 > 0:33:45into a scenario?You can on that basis. What you can do more is test

0:33:45 > 0:33:49the team coming together and seeing how it responds under pressure. A

0:33:49 > 0:33:53good example, if you think about the National Health Service. If it were

0:33:53 > 0:33:57a flu pandemic they would have to think about how to reallocate

0:33:57 > 0:34:01resources. There would be sickness amongst staff, more people going to

0:34:01 > 0:34:04hospitals and you get together a group of people responsible for

0:34:04 > 0:34:08running the NHS. You put them together and put them through a

0:34:08 > 0:34:14three-hour simulation of it and that is the same sort of thing we are

0:34:14 > 0:34:17doing. We are looking at what happens when Labour gets in, the

0:34:17 > 0:34:20first 100 days in power, for the first budget, what would you do?

0:34:20 > 0:34:25Whether it is a run on the pound or something, you create pressures and

0:34:25 > 0:34:31problems for them to create the idea of how they have to operate as a

0:34:31 > 0:34:35team.Does that give you the opportunity to stress test some of

0:34:35 > 0:34:39the more radical policies that Labour came up with in the last

0:34:39 > 0:34:43manifesto like nationalising the water companies or electricity firms

0:34:43 > 0:34:54or something like that?It is only maybe in this media bubble in

0:34:54 > 0:34:56Britain that we think neoliberalism is the only alternative.Those are

0:34:56 > 0:35:00to mainstream for you to bother about?I said the initial simulation

0:35:00 > 0:35:04as any of the first 100 days we are looking at how we would put together

0:35:04 > 0:35:12a budget. That is not really what the focus is. It is making it

0:35:12 > 0:35:16happen, the decision-making process. That is what you are trying to train

0:35:16 > 0:35:19people for. The military does this, the civil service does this put up

0:35:19 > 0:35:26if you do not do this you are in a very bad position. The election, the

0:35:26 > 0:35:29Liberal Democrats did no contingency planning as to what would happen if

0:35:29 > 0:35:35there were a hung parliament but the civil service did. They ripped

0:35:35 > 0:35:39people into becoming a junior appendage of the Tory Party with the

0:35:39 > 0:35:45disastrous results that came from that.Is this the kind of

0:35:45 > 0:35:48discussions that a Shadow Cabinet would be having in the run-up to the

0:35:48 > 0:35:53general election anyway? That is that fundamental job of an

0:35:53 > 0:35:59opposition.This is a fundamental method of doing it. You are just

0:35:59 > 0:36:03surprised that a political parties doing this. If you are the military

0:36:03 > 0:36:08or the civil service you use this tool. You are just surprised... I am

0:36:08 > 0:36:12surprised that you are surprised. The other thing you are doing

0:36:12 > 0:36:18separate from the war game scenario, the apps and the games go further --

0:36:18 > 0:36:26which you say can further political engagement, are they really

0:36:26 > 0:36:37spreading a message?A good example is the Jeremy Corbyn ran.I have

0:36:37 > 0:36:44played that. It is about mugging bankers in the streets.Why we have

0:36:44 > 0:36:49austerities is about the tax cuts. You reverse that and you campaign

0:36:49 > 0:36:51fuel social programme. In doing so, it shows that you are more

0:36:51 > 0:36:56successful in raising revenue can unlock certain pledges and people

0:36:56 > 0:37:02join your campaign.Stay there if you will. I will come to the panel.

0:37:02 > 0:37:06Do you think this sounds like a useful, political tool, to sit there

0:37:06 > 0:37:11in a game like atmosphere and work hard to intimate radical programme

0:37:11 > 0:37:15for government?Yes. It sounds sensible and not the only thing they

0:37:15 > 0:37:21are doing. I can see them Maya city of John McDonnell was to speak aloud

0:37:21 > 0:37:27in any context about a potential run on the pound. -- naivete. To prepare

0:37:27 > 0:37:34for eventualities, prepare for the first 100 days by using all kinds of

0:37:34 > 0:37:40devices, is highly sensible.Even if it has been publicised to working

0:37:40 > 0:37:45with games developers.You kept going on about military, war-gaming

0:37:45 > 0:37:50exercises. I am co-authoring a book on defence at the moment. In one of

0:37:50 > 0:37:56the most important recent war-gaming exercises we did with the Americans,

0:37:56 > 0:38:00we were wiped out within a day because our targeting policy was so

0:38:00 > 0:38:05outdated. I think the fear in the city is exactly that would happen

0:38:05 > 0:38:11economically because your economic policy is so outdated.I will let

0:38:11 > 0:38:17you respond to that and ask you another question as well.She is

0:38:17 > 0:38:24just the Tory Troll.I'm not a member of the Tory Party. No reason

0:38:24 > 0:38:32to be impolite to people. If Morgan Stanley came here and said we want

0:38:32 > 0:38:38to game out what a Labour government would mean for business, would you

0:38:38 > 0:38:43do that?I would not do it but I would be very surprised if they are

0:38:43 > 0:38:49not already doing that.Thank you for coming in to talk to us.

0:38:49 > 0:38:50It's coming up to 11:40am.

0:38:50 > 0:38:52You're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:38:52 > 0:38:54Coming up on the programme...

0:38:54 > 0:38:56We sent the Sunday Politics moodbox - our unscientific poll

0:38:56 > 0:38:58featuring plastic balls - to South West London.

0:38:58 > 0:38:59After polling suggested the Conservative Party

0:38:59 > 0:39:01aren't seen as "caring", we asked people in

0:39:01 > 0:39:03Putney what they value more in politicians -

0:39:03 > 0:39:04competence or compassion?

0:39:04 > 0:39:06I think that anybody who is in parliament

0:39:06 > 0:39:09should be confident, otherwise they shouldn't be an MP in

0:39:09 > 0:39:15the first place, whatever party they are.

0:39:15 > 0:39:16-- competent.

0:39:16 > 0:39:17Do they have enough compassion?

0:39:17 > 0:39:18Hm?

0:39:18 > 0:39:19Do they have enough compassion?

0:39:19 > 0:39:21No.

0:39:21 > 0:39:23But then, who does have enough compassion these days?

0:39:23 > 0:39:24Hardly anybody, my dear.

0:39:24 > 0:39:31First though, it's time for the Sunday Politics where you are.

0:39:31 > 0:39:33Hello and welcome to the London part of the programme.

0:39:33 > 0:39:38I'm Ellie Price.

0:39:38 > 0:39:40Joining me for the duration, Heidi Alexander, Labour MP

0:39:40 > 0:39:43for Lewisham East, the Conservative MP for Croydon South,

0:39:43 > 0:39:46Chris Philp, and Lord Adonis, a former Labour minister,

0:39:46 > 0:39:48now a non-affiliated peer, who chairs the National Infrastructure

0:39:48 > 0:39:49Commission.

0:39:49 > 0:39:50Welcome to you all.

0:39:50 > 0:39:52It was the centrepiece of the 2012 Olympics,

0:39:52 > 0:39:55but the glory days of what's been renamed the London Stadium

0:39:55 > 0:39:56seem a long way off.

0:39:56 > 0:39:59This week the mayor, Sadiq Khan, agreed to take over the former

0:39:59 > 0:40:02Olympic stadium, and published a highly critical review

0:40:02 > 0:40:09of how it's being run.

0:40:09 > 0:40:12In it he blames the previous mayor Boris Johnson for saddling

0:40:12 > 0:40:15the taxpayer, not the tenants, West Ham United, with the bill

0:40:15 > 0:40:16for the stadium's transformation from exclusively hosting athletics

0:40:16 > 0:40:18to include football.

0:40:18 > 0:40:20He says that the costs were £133 million more

0:40:20 > 0:40:23than the incorrect estimates when West Ham signed the deal.

0:40:23 > 0:40:30And the stadium is now forecast to lose £24 million in 2017-18.

0:40:30 > 0:40:33Now, the mayor has agreed a deal with Newham Council to take over

0:40:33 > 0:40:34control of the stadium.

0:40:34 > 0:40:36Andrew, let's start with you.

0:40:36 > 0:40:37This was such a high-profile

0:40:37 > 0:40:42project - what's gone wrong?

0:40:42 > 0:40:45It's not a good idea in my experience for local authorities

0:40:45 > 0:40:46to start running stadia.

0:40:46 > 0:40:48This is the big moral of it.

0:40:48 > 0:40:50These are private enterprises, let's be frank, these football clubs,

0:40:50 > 0:40:53they make a lot of money, they don't really need the state

0:40:53 > 0:40:55to come in and help them, too.

0:40:55 > 0:40:58And of course, there was a big issue about what was going to be done

0:40:58 > 0:41:00within Olympic assets and so on.

0:41:00 > 0:41:03I think the lesson I draw from this is, let these football clubs,

0:41:03 > 0:41:04which have got these super business-alert directors,

0:41:04 > 0:41:08business incomes, let

0:41:08 > 0:41:12them sort these things out themselves and don't saddle

0:41:12 > 0:41:15taxpayers with having to deal with what could be for many,

0:41:15 > 0:41:18many decades now the debts which are left.

0:41:18 > 0:41:20So, Boris Johnson mishandled this, then?

0:41:20 > 0:41:23Well, he was mayor at the time but I'm not making a particularly

0:41:23 > 0:41:24part political point.

0:41:24 > 0:41:25Local authorities always

0:41:25 > 0:41:28like the idea of the glitz of having big stadia,

0:41:28 > 0:41:29and venues and so on,

0:41:29 > 0:41:31and they've got lots of big things to do.

0:41:31 > 0:41:33We're talking later in your programme about

0:41:33 > 0:41:38housing and transport - nobody else can do those.

0:41:38 > 0:41:40It's up to the local authorities and the government to do

0:41:40 > 0:41:42that, and they should concentrate on those.

0:41:42 > 0:41:45Heidi - Newham Council, the mayor very much involved in all of this?

0:41:45 > 0:41:46They're to blame?

0:41:46 > 0:41:47I don't think so.

0:41:47 > 0:41:50I think the report that Sadiq Khan has published this week shows that

0:41:50 > 0:41:55actually, the decisions that Boris Johnson took when he was mayor

0:41:55 > 0:41:57in response to the legal challenge which happened in 2011,

0:41:57 > 0:42:00I think he panicked and he was quick to say,

0:42:00 > 0:42:03we'll rent it out to West Ham, when perhaps he could have held back

0:42:03 > 0:42:05a little bit and adopted a more sensible negotiating position.

0:42:05 > 0:42:15So, some of the contracts massively underestimated the costs

0:42:15 > 0:42:17of transforming the stadium from the Olympic Stadium for

0:42:17 > 0:42:20use by West Ham Football Club.

0:42:20 > 0:42:23I think the cost of some of this retractable seating as well,

0:42:23 > 0:42:25and Boris Johnson's decision to have the Rugby World Cup

0:42:25 > 0:42:27there in 2015 added delay, disruption and cost.

0:42:27 > 0:42:30So, I do think that Boris Johnson has got some very serious

0:42:30 > 0:42:38questions to answer.

0:42:38 > 0:42:41Of course, we all know that he had his eye on developing

0:42:41 > 0:42:43career opportunities over the river in Westminster, so

0:42:43 > 0:42:44perhaps we shouldn't be so surprised.

0:42:44 > 0:42:46Chris - this doesn't make entirely comfortable reading,

0:42:46 > 0:42:47does it, for Boris Johnson?

0:42:47 > 0:42:50We shouldn't forget that in the few years since the Olympics,

0:42:50 > 0:42:51we've had some fantastic events there beside

0:42:51 > 0:42:55the Olympics themselves.

0:42:55 > 0:42:57We had the Athletics World Cup in 2017, the Rugby World Cup,

0:42:57 > 0:43:00and of course that whole part of his London has

0:43:00 > 0:43:01regenerated enormously, party down to the stadium.

0:43:01 > 0:43:03Those are all good things.

0:43:03 > 0:43:06I think the point Lord Adonis made was the most interesting one.

0:43:06 > 0:43:09The way this got set up initially in response to a court case,

0:43:09 > 0:43:12it wasn't really Boris's choice, but it was set up with the state

0:43:12 > 0:43:15essentially running this, taking the operational risk but also

0:43:15 > 0:43:18responsibility for all the revenue, so, naming rights and letting

0:43:18 > 0:43:25out the stadium for rock concerts and so on.

0:43:25 > 0:43:28It turns out the government, or the state, the Mayor of London,

0:43:28 > 0:43:31didn't do a very good job, and there is a real lesson

0:43:31 > 0:43:33there for those people who advocate nationalisation in other areas.

0:43:33 > 0:43:35The state running what are basically is business

0:43:35 > 0:43:36enterprises doesn't work.

0:43:36 > 0:43:39Sadiq Khan's line that he is now stepping in and taking it over I'm

0:43:39 > 0:43:41afraid to say is a bit disingenuous.

0:43:41 > 0:43:43Via the London Legacy Development Corporation, he has controlled

0:43:43 > 0:43:46this, because they own most of E20, the stadium owner.

0:43:46 > 0:43:49So, Sadiq Khan has had a year and a half to get this sorted out,

0:43:49 > 0:43:52and it is regrettable it has taken him that length of time

0:43:52 > 0:43:53to even look at this.

0:43:53 > 0:43:55So, all of this stuff about stepping in now

0:43:55 > 0:43:58is a bit of a gimmick, I'm afraid.

0:43:58 > 0:44:00He has only been mayor for not terribly long.

0:44:00 > 0:44:02Andrew Adonis - this all sounds like a catalogue of errors

0:44:02 > 0:44:04from various different parts -

0:44:04 > 0:44:06a public inquiry, what needs to be done?

0:44:06 > 0:44:08I don't think looking backwards is going to help much.

0:44:08 > 0:44:10On Chris's point, I agree with him in parts.

0:44:10 > 0:44:11I don't think...

0:44:11 > 0:44:13There's so many things we've got

0:44:13 > 0:44:14to sort out in London.

0:44:14 > 0:44:15A massive housing crisis...

0:44:15 > 0:44:25Surely someone should be held to account?

0:44:25 > 0:44:27Well, it was a unique set of circumstances to do

0:44:27 > 0:44:30with what you're going to do with Olympic assets.

0:44:30 > 0:44:33We don't host Olympic Games very often, so it was

0:44:33 > 0:44:34an unusual situation.

0:44:34 > 0:44:36But I don't think it's fair to criticise Sadiq.

0:44:36 > 0:44:37It was a hospital pass.

0:44:37 > 0:44:41There was no easy answer to this.

0:44:41 > 0:44:44And what he's trying to do is to make the best of it,

0:44:44 > 0:44:47and I think what he is proposing to do is about right.

0:44:47 > 0:44:50But the lesson I draw from this is not that the state should retreat

0:44:50 > 0:44:52from things which are important - housing, transport,

0:44:52 > 0:44:54welfare services, all hugely important -

0:44:54 > 0:44:56but running sports stadia, I don't think we need

0:44:56 > 0:44:57the Mayor of London

0:44:57 > 0:44:59to be doing too much of that in the future.

0:44:59 > 0:45:02I suspect this is something which will run and run.

0:45:02 > 0:45:04It has been 18 months in the drafting, but this week

0:45:04 > 0:45:07finally saw the Mayor of London launch his planning bible,

0:45:07 > 0:45:10a so-called London plan sets rules for all new building in the capital

0:45:10 > 0:45:13and offers guidance on everything from gender neutral toilets to a ban

0:45:13 > 0:45:14on fracking within the city limits.

0:45:14 > 0:45:17Most crucially, it's also a guide of how Sadiq Khan plans

0:45:17 > 0:45:18to end the housing crisis.

0:45:18 > 0:45:19Will it work?

0:45:19 > 0:45:20Andrew has this report.

0:45:20 > 0:45:21Barking Riverside in east London.

0:45:21 > 0:45:24One of the largest redevelopment sites in all of Western Europe.

0:45:24 > 0:45:26This site was first acquired for development in 1994.

0:45:26 > 0:45:28In that near quarter of a century, they've managed

0:45:28 > 0:45:33to build just 900 homes.

0:45:33 > 0:45:34to build just 900 homes.

0:45:34 > 0:45:39In fact it's almost an emblem for London's failure to deal

0:45:39 > 0:45:40with the housing crisis.

0:45:40 > 0:45:43But this week, the mayor was here to launch the London plan,

0:45:43 > 0:45:46his bible for all new housing developments in the capital.

0:45:46 > 0:45:48And with the arrival of a new London overground train station here,

0:45:48 > 0:45:53he thinks Barking Riverside can become a symbol of his success.

0:45:53 > 0:45:55Well, we're to build more than 10,000 homes,

0:45:55 > 0:45:57a community, seven schools, a good London overground extension,

0:45:57 > 0:46:02we're going ahead with that.

0:46:02 > 0:46:06Bus links here, cultural facilities here, opening up

0:46:06 > 0:46:10the river behind us, the ambition of the council is

0:46:10 > 0:46:11Barcelona on the Thames - why not?

0:46:11 > 0:46:15Across London, the mayor wants a target of 50% of new homes

0:46:15 > 0:46:18to be affordable housing, and to more than double

0:46:18 > 0:46:19the rate of house

0:46:19 > 0:46:21building to 66,000 homes a year.

0:46:21 > 0:46:23But is Sadiq Khan's new strategy really going to be

0:46:23 > 0:46:30enough to turn those numbers into a reality?

0:46:30 > 0:46:33Here is Meridian Water in Enfield, another vast 10,000-home site to be

0:46:33 > 0:46:44built on industrial, brownfield land.

0:46:53 > 0:46:55It was launched with great fanfare by the last mayor

0:46:55 > 0:46:57Boris Johnson back in 2015.

0:46:57 > 0:47:00But two years on, the future of this site doesn't quite look

0:47:00 > 0:47:01as rosy as it once did.

0:47:01 > 0:47:03Just ask Barratt homes, who were meant to be

0:47:03 > 0:47:05developing the land, pulled out on a deal thought

0:47:05 > 0:47:06to be worth £6 billion.

0:47:06 > 0:47:08Why?

0:47:08 > 0:47:10Well, they couldn't agree terms with the local authority.

0:47:10 > 0:47:11We're around here at the moment...

0:47:11 > 0:47:14Local Conservatives say the London plan could make it harder to sign

0:47:14 > 0:47:17a new deal with someone else, due to the mayor's 50%

0:47:17 > 0:47:19affordable housing target, which they say will make it harder

0:47:19 > 0:47:21for developers to make the site financially viable.

0:47:21 > 0:47:22It's clearly more challenging.

0:47:22 > 0:47:24The council is talking to its reserve bidder.

0:47:24 > 0:47:26But the goalposts have now changed from when Barratt won

0:47:26 > 0:47:28the development partner status, when the procurement

0:47:28 > 0:47:29was done several years ago.

0:47:29 > 0:47:32So, clearly, 50% is going to be a major challenge to deliver this,

0:47:32 > 0:47:36and it could mean that it may not ever come about at all.

0:47:36 > 0:47:37Brownfield land is expensive, complicated to build

0:47:37 > 0:47:39on and can be painfully slow.

0:47:39 > 0:47:42But the mayor has ruled out building on the green belt, and in fact,

0:47:42 > 0:47:45wants to increase the amount of green spaces in London.

0:47:45 > 0:47:47So, where exactly are all his new homes supposed to go?

0:47:47 > 0:47:51If you really want to tackle this problem, there is one silver bullet,

0:47:51 > 0:47:53and that is that you need to radically increase

0:47:53 > 0:47:54the supply of land.

0:47:54 > 0:47:57You can have targets for how many homes you want built a year.

0:47:57 > 0:48:02You can have targets for how many of them

0:48:02 > 0:48:06are so-called affordable, but unless you are going to allow

0:48:06 > 0:48:08the building on some of the green space in London,

0:48:08 > 0:48:11you are not going to crack this problem.

0:48:11 > 0:48:12Instead, the London plan has another radical solution.

0:48:12 > 0:48:14It scraps all limits on housing density.

0:48:14 > 0:48:17More homes are going to be squeezed onto the little space we have,

0:48:17 > 0:48:20much of which is coming to the suburbs.

0:48:20 > 0:48:23We have 54 high-rise blocks already.

0:48:23 > 0:48:25So, if you look at our borough, it's split very much

0:48:25 > 0:48:26into different segments.

0:48:26 > 0:48:31I think it's about how you use design to make place work.

0:48:31 > 0:48:33For years, politicians of all stripes have lined up

0:48:33 > 0:48:35to promise Londoners housing numbers that have never been built.

0:48:35 > 0:48:38The question is whether Sadiq Khan can do something different.

0:48:38 > 0:48:40Well, we've got it here, all 500 pages of it.

0:48:40 > 0:48:46It's quite a weighty tome.

0:48:46 > 0:48:48I've also got James Murray, the Deputy Mayor for

0:48:48 > 0:48:50housing, joining us.

0:48:50 > 0:48:53Hello, James.

0:48:53 > 0:48:56James, Londoners are very used to promises of extra affordable

0:48:56 > 0:48:58housing being announced.

0:48:58 > 0:49:00Ken Livingstone had the same target, in fact, 50%

0:49:00 > 0:49:02of new homes being affordable.

0:49:02 > 0:49:07He didn't manage it - why do you think you will?

0:49:07 > 0:49:10What the mayor has set out in the draft London plan,

0:49:10 > 0:49:15it's hugely ambitious, it's very bold, it's showing how

0:49:15 > 0:49:17we can build 65,000 homes a year, 50% of them being affordable,

0:49:17 > 0:49:19without building on green belt.

0:49:19 > 0:49:21But it is hugely ambitious.

0:49:21 > 0:49:22But ambitious often means unachievable.

0:49:22 > 0:49:28We're really clear that we need government

0:49:28 > 0:49:30support if we're going to get these built.

0:49:30 > 0:49:34Part of the London plan is how we're going to start turning things around

0:49:34 > 0:49:35around from the mess that we inherited from

0:49:35 > 0:49:38Boris Johnson, where there was just 13% affordable housing and no homes

0:49:38 > 0:49:39for social rent...

0:49:39 > 0:49:41Let's focus on your plans, though.

0:49:41 > 0:49:43You saw in the film there that having affordable housing can put

0:49:43 > 0:49:45off developers and actually...

0:49:45 > 0:49:48I notice you've still got your policy to let developers go ahead

0:49:48 > 0:49:50with planning just 35% affordable homes if they don't

0:49:50 > 0:49:53take a public subsidy - that's sort of a concession,

0:49:53 > 0:49:54isn't it?

0:49:54 > 0:49:57We make no apologies for being very bold and ambitious

0:49:57 > 0:49:58about affordable housing.

0:49:58 > 0:50:01Because when you talk to Londoners about what they need,

0:50:01 > 0:50:04what's really clear is that people need more affordable homes,

0:50:04 > 0:50:07genuinely affordable homes that people can trust are affordable

0:50:07 > 0:50:12and help people who are struggling to rent or buy.

0:50:12 > 0:50:14So, we're setting an ambitious target of 55% overall,

0:50:14 > 0:50:16which is a combination of private led developments, public sector

0:50:16 > 0:50:18land, homes we can invest in using the investment

0:50:18 > 0:50:20secured in government.

0:50:20 > 0:50:22For developers, a lot of the conversations we've been

0:50:22 > 0:50:25having over the last 18 months have centred on them wanting certainty.

0:50:25 > 0:50:27If we can say, look, if you can get at least

0:50:27 > 0:50:2935% affordable housing, you can fast track through

0:50:29 > 0:50:31the planning system, get building within two years

0:50:31 > 0:50:34and hopefully everyone's a winner.

0:50:34 > 0:50:41One of the key issues in this plan is this idea of not

0:50:41 > 0:50:43building on the green belt, but concentrating on existing land,

0:50:43 > 0:50:45on brownfield sites - they're not easy to build

0:50:45 > 0:50:46on, though, are they?

0:50:46 > 0:50:49It's going to be very challenging.

0:50:49 > 0:50:52But what we've done through the drafting of the London

0:50:52 > 0:50:55plan is done a really extensive look across London at where

0:50:55 > 0:50:57all of the capacity is.

0:50:57 > 0:51:00That's really why the London plan is so bold and so ambitious this

0:51:00 > 0:51:02time around, because it's really pushing the densities,

0:51:02 > 0:51:04it's really saying, what can we get on the brownfield sites

0:51:04 > 0:51:06that we have within London?

0:51:06 > 0:51:08And crucially, how can we make sure that every borough

0:51:08 > 0:51:09in London plays its part?

0:51:09 > 0:51:11So, it's not just about one borough being overdeveloped,

0:51:11 > 0:51:13and others not developing at all.

0:51:13 > 0:51:16This is about everywhere in London playing its part in delivering those

0:51:16 > 0:51:19thousands of homes that we need.

0:51:19 > 0:51:22The issue, though, density is go to be a problem

0:51:22 > 0:51:28for both of you and your constituents, isn't it?

0:51:28 > 0:51:31People in suburbs don't particularly want to live in high density areas?

0:51:31 > 0:51:33And building on people's back happens, as the plan suggests,

0:51:33 > 0:51:38is definitely not a good idea.

0:51:38 > 0:51:39What London needs is action not words.

0:51:39 > 0:51:41We've had a lot of words from politicians.

0:51:41 > 0:51:43What we need are more homes being built.

0:51:43 > 0:51:46We saw a couple of examples in the film, in Enfield,

0:51:46 > 0:51:48for instance, where the developer, Barratt homes, was poised to build

0:51:48 > 0:51:50thousands and thousands of units on a brownfield site,

0:51:50 > 0:51:52but they pulled out because the affordable

0:51:52 > 0:51:55housing target was too high and it was financially not viable.

0:51:55 > 0:51:57I fully accept the need to build affordable housing.

0:51:57 > 0:52:00But the way you make housing affordable is to build more of it.

0:52:00 > 0:52:03Under Sadiq Khan, housing starts have gone down by 23% compared

0:52:03 > 0:52:06to Boris Johnson's last year, and even worse, housing association

0:52:06 > 0:52:08and council housing starts have gone down by 21%.

0:52:08 > 0:52:10So we need action, not words.

0:52:10 > 0:52:17You wanted to interject, that wasn't the reason that

0:52:17 > 0:52:19You wanted to interject, that wasn't the reason for that

0:52:19 > 0:52:20Barratt's example...?

0:52:20 > 0:52:23I think we need to be clear on a few things.

0:52:23 > 0:52:24Firstly, building on gardens.

0:52:24 > 0:52:27As I'm sure you probably know, people are always allowed to put

0:52:27 > 0:52:29forward planning applications for gardens that they own.

0:52:29 > 0:52:31What we're saying is that if people bring forward those applications,

0:52:31 > 0:52:34we want the green to be reprovided in the development or nearby,

0:52:34 > 0:52:37and crucially we want more homes to be built so that more Londoners

0:52:37 > 0:52:39can benefit from the development that happens.

0:52:39 > 0:52:43One of the crucial points to say here, Chris, is that you're part

0:52:43 > 0:52:45of a government who talks about building more housing,

0:52:45 > 0:52:48but the first time we met, you lobbied me to stop a development

0:52:48 > 0:52:49going ahead in your local area.

0:52:49 > 0:52:50Because it was inappropriate.

0:52:50 > 0:52:52So, how are we supposed to get up to...

0:52:52 > 0:52:54Let me answer that directly.

0:52:54 > 0:52:55Can I answer the question?

0:52:55 > 0:52:58There are sites in London like the one in Enfield that has

0:52:58 > 0:53:00fallen over on your watch, like Croydon town centre,

0:53:00 > 0:53:02like Old Oak Common, like Barking Riverside,

0:53:02 > 0:53:04that we should bring forward, instead of inappropriate areas

0:53:04 > 0:53:06like the one that you referred to just then.

0:53:06 > 0:53:09The one that you tried to block.

0:53:09 > 0:53:12Can I just say, I think Chris talks a good came here.

0:53:12 > 0:53:16But what James has just alluded to is that politicians have to stand

0:53:16 > 0:53:17up and be counted on this issue.

0:53:17 > 0:53:21You know, there is a tendency to say, not at the end of my road,

0:53:21 > 0:53:22not in my back garden.

0:53:22 > 0:53:23London needs more homes.

0:53:23 > 0:53:26If you would just let me finish.

0:53:26 > 0:53:29One second, Chris.

0:53:29 > 0:53:32You talk about people needing action and not words.

0:53:32 > 0:53:35What we need is action from government.

0:53:35 > 0:53:39When I first became an MP in 2010, the first act of the coalition

0:53:39 > 0:53:43government was to cut the national affordable house-building

0:53:43 > 0:53:46programme by 63%.

0:53:46 > 0:53:48Anything that Theresa May has announced in the last year

0:53:48 > 0:53:51or so is playing at the edges of this problem.

0:53:51 > 0:53:55We saw a budget where the Chancellor was pussyfooting around with saying,

0:53:55 > 0:53:58we're going to do a review into planning permissions...

0:53:58 > 0:54:01We need real investment and we need investment on a large scale.

0:54:01 > 0:54:05We need five times as much investment in genuinely affordable

0:54:05 > 0:54:09homes than is going at the moment.

0:54:09 > 0:54:11We also need some space.

0:54:11 > 0:54:13I would like to bring Andrew Adonis in on this.

0:54:13 > 0:54:16Andrew, you saw in the film - the silver bullet would be

0:54:16 > 0:54:17building on the green belt?

0:54:17 > 0:54:18We're not short of space.

0:54:18 > 0:54:21There's masses of brownfield land which can be built on.

0:54:21 > 0:54:31But brownfield land is not easy to build on, is it?

0:54:40 > 0:54:43A key requirement is, you need to be able to get to it.

0:54:43 > 0:54:46And one of the big challenges we face in large parts of London

0:54:46 > 0:54:47is poor connectivity.

0:54:47 > 0:54:49It is no accident that what is driving the development

0:54:49 > 0:54:51of Barking Riverside now is the extension of

0:54:51 > 0:54:52the London Overground.

0:54:52 > 0:54:54It spent ten years being a desert, that site.

0:54:54 > 0:54:55I've been there.

0:54:55 > 0:54:58You go to Barking, then you to catch a bus,

0:54:58 > 0:54:59and it's ten 20 minutes.

0:54:59 > 0:55:01It could be half an hour in the rush hour.

0:55:01 > 0:55:04Of course people won't live there if they can't get to work.

0:55:04 > 0:55:07Once it's two stops from Barking on the overground with direct

0:55:07 > 0:55:09links all across London, which you'll get, that place

0:55:09 > 0:55:10will be transformed.

0:55:10 > 0:55:13Across the parties we've realised that over the last ten years.

0:55:13 > 0:55:15Crossrail is opening next year, the Elizabeth line.

0:55:15 > 0:55:17It will transform housing densities in the stations around.

0:55:17 > 0:55:19There are plans the mayor has taken forward, which the Government

0:55:19 > 0:55:21is supporting for Crossrail 2.

0:55:21 > 0:55:23That will be the new North-South line in London.

0:55:23 > 0:55:25That could itself unlock 200,000 homes, most of them

0:55:25 > 0:55:27on brownfield sites, but which at the moment

0:55:27 > 0:55:28are very hard to get to.

0:55:28 > 0:55:29Very quickly, James.

0:55:29 > 0:55:30Briefly, if you will.

0:55:30 > 0:55:32This accusation that you are going to ruin

0:55:32 > 0:55:34the suburbs that, in effect.

0:55:34 > 0:55:35This whole plan is anti-suburbs?

0:55:35 > 0:55:37There is an emphasis in the plan on good design

0:55:37 > 0:55:40and that is whether you are building in the suburbs or in central

0:55:40 > 0:55:43or inner London, right across London we want to see well-designed,

0:55:43 > 0:55:44high density housing.

0:55:44 > 0:55:47We are very clear that everywhere in London needs to play a part.

0:55:47 > 0:55:49That includes even places in Chris's constituency,

0:55:49 > 0:55:51where he needs to get with the programme and start

0:55:51 > 0:55:53building more housing rather than blocking developments,

0:55:53 > 0:55:55where we can get more homes for Londoners.

0:55:55 > 0:55:57Right, we'll have to leave it there, I'm afraid.

0:55:57 > 0:55:59I know you'd like to come back in.

0:55:59 > 0:56:00I certainly would.

0:56:00 > 0:56:03Some of that's not accurate but I'll let it go for now.

0:56:03 > 0:56:04Thank you, James.

0:56:04 > 0:56:05Thanks, James Murray, for joining us.

0:56:05 > 0:56:09I'm sorry to bring it up on what is a day off for most,

0:56:09 > 0:56:11but picture the morning commute, as you squeeze into a bus

0:56:11 > 0:56:14or are forced to nestle into some stranger's armpit on a train.

0:56:14 > 0:56:16You've probably come to an obvious conclusion.

0:56:16 > 0:56:18More and more people seem to be using public transport.

0:56:18 > 0:56:20Actually, according to the stats, you're wrong.

0:56:20 > 0:56:21London's population is increasing.

0:56:21 > 0:56:24Its economy is growing and jobs continue to be created.

0:56:24 > 0:56:26That's why so much new transport infrastructure is planned

0:56:26 > 0:56:28from the Bakerloo line extension to the proposed Crossrail 2,

0:56:28 > 0:56:31with more people and more jobs, the use of public transport ought

0:56:31 > 0:56:32to be on the rise.

0:56:32 > 0:56:34Except, if you look at the latest official figures, it's not.

0:56:34 > 0:56:37Rail journeys in London and the south-east were down almost

0:56:37 > 0:56:405% this year, and bus journeys have fallen by 6% in

0:56:40 > 0:56:42the last three years.

0:56:42 > 0:56:44As for the tube, there were 13 million fewer underground

0:56:44 > 0:56:47journeys this year than last.

0:56:47 > 0:56:51It's a bit of a mystery.

0:56:51 > 0:56:53I'm not sure anybody knows what the reason behind this fall

0:56:53 > 0:57:00in transport use is.

0:57:00 > 0:57:04It looks as if it's something to do with the change in the pattern

0:57:04 > 0:57:05of how people use their lives.

0:57:05 > 0:57:07Perhaps they've got fed up with the Southern Railway

0:57:07 > 0:57:10and the strikes and they've decided to work at home more,

0:57:10 > 0:57:13or just change their entire pattern of approach to work.

0:57:13 > 0:57:15The traditional pattern of commuting from outer London into offices

0:57:15 > 0:57:18in the centre is being disrupted by the rise of people working

0:57:18 > 0:57:19from home and elsewhere.

0:57:19 > 0:57:23Places like the Collective in Brent, where people not only work but live.

0:57:23 > 0:57:28You can imagine what it would take for me to get an office in the City.

0:57:28 > 0:57:35I'd need shirts for the office, then the amount I'd have

0:57:35 > 0:57:38to pay would be much, much greater and I would be alone

0:57:38 > 0:57:40sitting in an office working by myself.

0:57:40 > 0:57:42Suddenly, the physical office is becoming more and more redundant.

0:57:42 > 0:57:45The data shows another people who are working remotely is rising.

0:57:45 > 0:57:48Our business is built on the idea that the way we work,

0:57:48 > 0:57:53the way we live and the way we play is changing fundamentally.

0:57:53 > 0:57:56If I look at our demographic, people between the ages of 22-35,

0:57:56 > 0:57:58the numbers of freelancers is increasing fairly rapidly.

0:57:58 > 0:58:02There may be other causes.

0:58:02 > 0:58:06Road congestion has consistently slowed buses down.

0:58:06 > 0:58:08Cycling, too, is on the rise.

0:58:08 > 0:58:10Whatever the case may be, there are implications for Transport

0:58:10 > 0:58:11for London's finances.

0:58:11 > 0:58:13Their yield this year may fall in cash terms.

0:58:13 > 0:58:19That, of course, means there's less money for future investment.

0:58:19 > 0:58:21And it will begin to beg questions about how long a fares

0:58:21 > 0:58:23freeze could be sustained.

0:58:23 > 0:58:26But the mayor says, it's actually the fares freeze

0:58:26 > 0:58:33that's the solution.

0:58:33 > 0:58:35We've seen in London, where we've frozen TfL fares

0:58:35 > 0:58:37on the London overground, usage has gone up.

0:58:37 > 0:58:39Compare and contrast London Overground with

0:58:39 > 0:58:41the suburban lines - Southern, South-east

0:58:41 > 0:58:43and South-western, where it has gone down by 5%.

0:58:43 > 0:58:47In a statement, Transport for London told us they have significantly

0:58:47 > 0:58:49reduced their operating costs, by £153 million.

0:58:49 > 0:58:57But there are many challenges ahead for London's transport planners.

0:58:57 > 0:58:58It's counter-intuitive stuff, isn't it?

0:58:58 > 0:59:00Andrew Adonis, what do you make of these figures?

0:59:00 > 0:59:02We need to break it down into different parts.

0:59:02 > 0:59:06Bus usage has been really seriously hit by congestion.

0:59:06 > 0:59:11Average bus speeds in Central London now are lower than they were with

0:59:11 > 0:59:15the horse and carriage, before the First World War.

0:59:15 > 0:59:20The number 11 bus goes through Central London at an average

0:59:20 > 0:59:23now of three and a half miles an hour - you could walk faster.

0:59:23 > 0:59:26Is that what people are doing? I think some people are.

0:59:26 > 0:59:27Particularly when they get into Central London.

0:59:27 > 0:59:29They are walking that last bit.

0:59:29 > 0:59:30That needs to be sorted out.

0:59:30 > 0:59:32There are good reasons for it.

0:59:32 > 0:59:34I am a great supporter of the cycle superhighways.

0:59:34 > 0:59:37We've got to have modern cycling infrastructure but we have not yet

0:59:37 > 0:59:39sorted out all of the associated traffic movements around it.

0:59:39 > 0:59:41I think that needs to be worked through.

0:59:41 > 0:59:44It's also part of the reason why I'm strongly in favour of bus

0:59:44 > 0:59:47prioritisation and doing more to get cars out of Central London.

0:59:47 > 0:59:49I think the plans to pedestrianise completely Oxford Street,

0:59:49 > 0:59:56which has now been mooted for ten years, when the Elizabeth line opens

0:59:56 > 0:59:58and you'll have huge numbers coming out of Bond Street

0:59:58 > 1:00:00and Tottenham Court Road Stations, those sorts of policies

1:00:00 > 1:00:02will be important.

1:00:02 > 1:00:04Then you need the buses to terminate around those stations.

1:00:04 > 1:00:06In the case of the tube and the overground,

1:00:06 > 1:00:10it's a bit more of a mystery.

1:00:10 > 1:00:12Tony is onto something there.

1:00:12 > 1:00:15We have had some of the worst strikes in the history of London

1:00:15 > 1:00:17commuting in the summer.

1:00:17 > 1:00:20That is one of the busiest sets of commuter lines into London.

1:00:20 > 1:00:24That has been so disruptive that I think, what has actually happened,

1:00:24 > 1:00:29it has instilled new patterns of working where, in order not to be

1:00:29 > 1:00:31subject to the absolute chaos and confusion of Southern Rail,

1:00:31 > 1:00:34people have started working at home more or at least for at least two

1:00:34 > 1:00:36or three days a week more.

1:00:36 > 1:00:38They have changed their working patterns.

1:00:38 > 1:00:39In time that may be a good thing.

1:00:39 > 1:00:42Heidi, this presents a bit of a problem for TfL's revenues.

1:00:42 > 1:00:44If people are not paying for their fares, how

1:00:44 > 1:00:46are you going to pay for investment in rail?

1:00:46 > 1:00:49Interestingly, I had a conversation with someone at the GLA this morning

1:00:49 > 1:00:52about this and they said they have actually seen some pick-up

1:00:52 > 1:00:54in passenger numbers in the last couple of months

1:00:54 > 1:00:57and that the revenue for TfL is ahead of budget in terms

1:00:57 > 1:01:00of what was predicted.

1:01:00 > 1:01:08But, yeah, it will be a huge challenge to balance the books.

1:01:08 > 1:01:11As that video showed, I think we have already in the last year,

1:01:11 > 1:01:16Sadiq has managed to reduce the operating costs by 153

1:01:16 > 1:01:20million through reducing layers of management,

1:01:20 > 1:01:24rationalising their accommodation, that sort of thing.

1:01:24 > 1:01:26I agree with what Andrew has said.

1:01:26 > 1:01:29There are a lot of different reasons for this.

1:01:29 > 1:01:32I think of my own journey into work, which is absolutely horrendous

1:01:32 > 1:01:37on South-eastern Trains.

1:01:37 > 1:01:40My husband stopped using the train network altogether.

1:01:40 > 1:01:42I want to bring in Chris on this.

1:01:42 > 1:01:43What do you make of all of this?

1:01:43 > 1:01:48I was a bit surprised.

1:01:48 > 1:01:50On Southern Trains to Croydon, and on the tubes, it

1:01:50 > 1:01:51still feels pretty crowded.

1:01:51 > 1:01:53I was surprised to see those figures.

1:01:53 > 1:01:54I think Andrew is right.

1:01:54 > 1:01:56The RMT strikes, 40 days of strikes on Southern,

1:01:56 > 1:01:58has had a crippling effect on Croydon residents and residents

1:01:58 > 1:02:00up and down the Brighton main line.

1:02:00 > 1:02:01That would have contributed.

1:02:01 > 1:02:04Also, to be honest, Sadiq Khan promised during the mayoral election

1:02:04 > 1:02:09that not a single Londoner would pay a penny more in 2020 but, in fact,

1:02:09 > 1:02:11he has put up fares, contrary to his promise,

1:02:11 > 1:02:14on Travelcards and Oyster cards.

1:02:14 > 1:02:18I'm really sorry to say we're out of time.

1:02:18 > 1:02:23I'm going to have to hand back to Sarah.

1:02:27 > 1:02:28Welcome back.

1:02:28 > 1:02:34Tom, Isabel and Steve are still with me.

1:02:34 > 1:02:38Let's talk about a couple of the interviews we heard earlier in the

1:02:38 > 1:02:42programme. Let's start with Michael Howard. He was putting up a very

1:02:42 > 1:02:46strong defence of Damian Green and harsh criticism of the police who

1:02:46 > 1:02:52had been speaking out saying they had reservations about what Damian

1:02:52 > 1:02:57Green had been doing with his Parliamentary computer. We surprised

1:02:57 > 1:03:03at that, is about?Not at all. There is much support for Damian Green,

1:03:03 > 1:03:07including Labour MPs. It is in relation to how the police have

1:03:07 > 1:03:11behaved over this. There is discomfort among MPs about how the

1:03:11 > 1:03:15police were involved in this. Most people will have forgotten the

1:03:15 > 1:03:18various dramas around that some years ago when police were invited

1:03:18 > 1:03:23into the Commons over a leak investigation. MPs feel that was no

1:03:23 > 1:03:28place for officers to be and they are uncomfortable about the leaking

1:03:28 > 1:03:31of this confidential information. I think the question now is whether

1:03:31 > 1:03:36Damian Green has lied about what he did although she is ago. To me,

1:03:36 > 1:03:41personally, and too many Tory MPs, whether or not he viewed pawn ten

1:03:41 > 1:03:48years ago or however long it was ago, it was clearly inappropriate

1:03:48 > 1:03:51behaviour on an office computer. Perhaps if he had acknowledged it

1:03:51 > 1:03:55and said he was going through a hard time, he might get away with it. If

1:03:55 > 1:03:59it is proven he lied and he is finished, whether or not there are a

1:03:59 > 1:04:04lot of sympathetic MPs over the way he is being treated here.It is

1:04:04 > 1:04:10interesting how many MPs are sympathetic. David Davis has

1:04:10 > 1:04:19threatened to resign from the Cabinet is Damian Green went.This

1:04:19 > 1:04:24goes back ten, 15 years of Tory Party history. David Davis, Damian

1:04:24 > 1:04:29Green and Theresa May or worked very closely together. They were

1:04:29 > 1:04:33horrified about the immigration papers leaks. It was proven to be a

1:04:33 > 1:04:35pretty bad thing that was done and the police apologise. Moving on to

1:04:35 > 1:04:43where we are now, it strikes me that Theresa May is downed if she does

1:04:43 > 1:04:48find Damian Green for being a cover-up rather than the crime

1:04:48 > 1:04:52himself, he has made a series of statements about pornography on his

1:04:52 > 1:04:56computer, it is not the possession but how he tried to disguise it was

1:04:56 > 1:05:01there. If she fires him, then she will have terrible troubles with the

1:05:01 > 1:05:04likes of David Davis and people furious in the party, Andrew

1:05:04 > 1:05:09Mitchell furious that the police are calling the shots. If she does not

1:05:09 > 1:05:14fire him, as some ministers in government, some Tory MPs, who think

1:05:14 > 1:05:22it is impossible for him to stay on with the mess as it currently is and

1:05:22 > 1:05:25his inconsistencies. She has made this worse for herself by sitting

1:05:25 > 1:05:28on, if not the full report but the substance of it for some time now.

1:05:28 > 1:05:33You think surely has the report that has not looked at it yet.She has

1:05:33 > 1:05:36not seen the full report but has been kept up to date with where it

1:05:36 > 1:05:42is going and what the findings are. She has been forced to take a very

1:05:42 > 1:05:46tough decision, like Angela Merkel always has and survived in politics

1:05:46 > 1:05:52very well, by simply not taking that decision, sometimes it works

1:05:52 > 1:05:58brilliantly and events work-out but sometimes it gets deeper.Barry

1:05:58 > 1:06:02Gardner was talking about Labour's EU policies was that he would not

1:06:02 > 1:06:06rule out a second referendum. He made it clear it was not party

1:06:06 > 1:06:11policy at the moment. I was asking about Jeremy Corbyn saying he would

1:06:11 > 1:06:16not rule out a second referendum. Saying it was a possibility if there

1:06:16 > 1:06:21was a two thirds threshold on it, which is a new idea.The position of

1:06:21 > 1:06:25the Labour Party, and the smart one for the time being, is to do what

1:06:25 > 1:06:31Harold Wilson used to call keep all options open. If there are big cries

1:06:31 > 1:06:38for another referendum, opinion polls from some of them who voted

1:06:38 > 1:06:42Brexit when they see a deal, the Labour leadership will come around

1:06:42 > 1:06:46and say they will support a referendum. They are being wholly

1:06:46 > 1:06:50pragmatic about this, as most opposition parties are when dealing

1:06:50 > 1:06:55with Europe. Before 97, Tony Blair was in favour of the single currency

1:06:55 > 1:07:01but loving the pound. This ambiguity is a feature of politics in Europe.

1:07:01 > 1:07:09They are in a broadly smart position for now.Ambiguity, some might call

1:07:09 > 1:07:18it inconsistency.I call it cynicism myself.Can it work for them?It is

1:07:18 > 1:07:22extraordinary cynical. I have seen some lame polls of small samples

1:07:22 > 1:07:26which purport to show there is a contingency of people who want

1:07:26 > 1:07:31another referendum. It comes down to how you phrase the question. This

1:07:31 > 1:07:35was the biggest democratic mandate for a decision to be taken that we

1:07:35 > 1:07:40have had in history. Most people just want Brexit to get gone. I

1:07:40 > 1:07:45think there is an extraordinary 50 quid Brexit at the moment, even

1:07:45 > 1:07:49amongst the people who wanted to happen. People wanted over with nets

1:07:49 > 1:07:58get on with building the new feature for the country. -- and let's get

1:07:58 > 1:08:00on.

1:08:00 > 1:08:03Now, you know how the old cliche goes: if you're not a Liberal

1:08:03 > 1:08:04when you're young then you've no heart.

1:08:04 > 1:08:06And if you're not a Conservative when you're old,

1:08:06 > 1:08:08then you've no brain.

1:08:08 > 1:08:10Well, it seems the Conservative Party might be getting a bit

1:08:10 > 1:08:11worried it's true.

1:08:11 > 1:08:13According to a report in The Guardian this week,

1:08:13 > 1:08:16party chiefs were concerned after surveys of public opinion

1:08:16 > 1:08:18showed that while Conservatives are seen as more credible

1:08:18 > 1:08:20on their policies, Labour are well ahead amongst voters when it

1:08:20 > 1:08:21comes to compassion.

1:08:21 > 1:08:23But can that be right, and which matters more

1:08:23 > 1:08:25to the British public ?

1:08:25 > 1:08:28We sent reporter Emma Vardy out into the cold with our rather

1:08:28 > 1:08:33unscientific moodbox.

1:08:33 > 1:08:35Tories have been told that polling suggests that people think

1:08:35 > 1:08:38Conservatives are competent when it comes to their policies but not

1:08:38 > 1:08:41caring enough when it comes to their values.

1:08:41 > 1:08:44So, we're in the Tory marginal of Putney to ask people

1:08:44 > 1:08:49what's more important, competence or compassion?

1:08:49 > 1:08:50Compassion.

1:08:50 > 1:08:52Why is that?

1:08:52 > 1:08:54Because it affects all of us.

1:08:54 > 1:08:59Compassion.

1:08:59 > 1:09:01I think they forget that it is real people they are

1:09:01 > 1:09:03governing, it is not just about the budget.

1:09:03 > 1:09:06It is about the budget, obviously, balancing the books, but

1:09:06 > 1:09:09I think you need to think about the little people, like these two.

1:09:09 > 1:09:10Like these.

1:09:10 > 1:09:13Competence, surely.

1:09:13 > 1:09:15Because if they are not, then we're going to

1:09:15 > 1:09:18need even more compassion because there will be even more people

1:09:18 > 1:09:19suffering.

1:09:19 > 1:09:20Thank you so much.

1:09:20 > 1:09:21Thank you.

1:09:21 > 1:09:25There are a lot of competent people who can take care of a job

1:09:25 > 1:09:27but a lot of these competent people don't really have compassion.

1:09:27 > 1:09:28It has to be competence.

1:09:28 > 1:09:30It has to be.

1:09:30 > 1:09:31Why competence?

1:09:31 > 1:09:33At the end of the day, obviously compassion is

1:09:33 > 1:09:38extremely important but due to the state our finances are in,

1:09:38 > 1:09:40competence has to be the way to go, unfortunately.

1:09:40 > 1:09:42Competence, I think.

1:09:42 > 1:09:42Why's that?

1:09:42 > 1:09:46Well, because they seem to be paid

1:09:46 > 1:09:49very well and don't have a lot of competence and fail this country

1:09:49 > 1:09:52miserably.

1:09:52 > 1:09:59People need to have a heart.

1:09:59 > 1:10:01If they're competent and don't have a heart, it's worthless.

1:10:01 > 1:10:02Competence.

1:10:02 > 1:10:04You can't have fools running the country.

1:10:04 > 1:10:06Well, I think that anybody who is in parliament

1:10:06 > 1:10:07should be conpetent.

1:10:07 > 1:10:09Otherwise you shouldn't be an MP in the first

1:10:09 > 1:10:10place, whatever party they are.

1:10:10 > 1:10:12Do they have enough compassion?

1:10:12 > 1:10:13No.

1:10:13 > 1:10:15But then who does have enough compassion these days?

1:10:15 > 1:10:16Hardly anybody, my dear.

1:10:16 > 1:10:19Should politicians do it from the heart, do you think?

1:10:19 > 1:10:20No.

1:10:20 > 1:10:22And I think they should do it from the heart.

1:10:22 > 1:10:25I think they just swerve everything.

1:10:25 > 1:10:28I am a heart on my sleeve man and I love that honesty,

1:10:28 > 1:10:29that genuine feel, enthusiasm.

1:10:29 > 1:10:30I can tell you are.

1:10:30 > 1:10:31I'm feeling the warmth.

1:10:31 > 1:10:32Thank you very much.

1:10:32 > 1:10:33Pleasure.

1:10:33 > 1:10:36Seems like it could be time for the Tory Party to

1:10:36 > 1:10:38enter the season of goodwill.

1:10:38 > 1:10:40Here in Putney, it was a narrow victory

1:10:40 > 1:10:50over competence for compassion.

1:10:50 > 1:10:55Emma in Putney. Let's bring the discussion into the studio. Are the

1:10:55 > 1:11:03Tories right? M BBC and is competent and not compassionate? Does it

1:11:03 > 1:11:07matter?The bigger worry is that they are not being seen as competent

1:11:07 > 1:11:12and that is fatal for a government. The two are connected full study

1:11:12 > 1:11:17cannot be compassionate because that involves public spending if you are

1:11:17 > 1:11:24not competent. With respect to the brilliant film, it is a slight

1:11:24 > 1:11:30juxtaposition. Many Tory MPs return from the last election saying we are

1:11:30 > 1:11:36seen again as the mean party. I was getting endless complaints about

1:11:36 > 1:11:41school cuts, health cuts and so on. But competence is the key. If you

1:11:41 > 1:11:48lose that, you're doomed as the Government.Time for Theresa May to

1:11:48 > 1:11:54start hugging huskies?That so well. I broadly agree with Steve,

1:11:54 > 1:11:59obviously you have to be competent. This is a huge problem for the Tory

1:11:59 > 1:12:02Party, particularly among young voters thought it was high time the

1:12:02 > 1:12:08Tory Party stopped letting labour monopolise the moral high ground on

1:12:08 > 1:12:12everything. Apart from the fact I'm sure he believes it in his heart

1:12:12 > 1:12:17when you are seeing figures like Michael Gove really embracing

1:12:17 > 1:12:20so-called softer causes like environmentalism and animal welfare.

1:12:20 > 1:12:28The Tories must do that to win over young voters.They have did do that.

1:12:28 > 1:12:32Can they do it?Compassion versus competence is the age of problem the

1:12:32 > 1:12:37Tory Party have had for years and it is the same with the Labour Party.

1:12:37 > 1:12:44Tony Blair pulled that trick brilliantly in 1997. The Tories can

1:12:44 > 1:12:53do that. But it will not shift the barometer too much. To make inroads

1:12:53 > 1:12:57on compassion, the Tories will have to reorganise whether money is in

1:12:57 > 1:13:02Britain and help out younger people, the socially immobile. That is where

1:13:02 > 1:13:09the problem is. They have no money and no majority. If you cannot get

1:13:09 > 1:13:12stuffed through the House of Commons you cannot change the country. That

1:13:12 > 1:13:17is where they will be stuck until the next election.Thank you all for

1:13:17 > 1:13:23being with us this afternoon.

1:13:23 > 1:13:25That's all for today - thanks to all my guests

1:13:25 > 1:13:27and my three amigos here.

1:13:27 > 1:13:29Join me again next Sunday at 11 here on BBC One

1:13:29 > 1:13:30for more Sunday Politics.

1:13:30 > 1:13:37Until then, bye-bye.