0:00:39 > 0:00:42Morning everyone and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
0:00:42 > 0:00:44I'm Sarah Smith and I'll be bringing you your essential briefing
0:00:44 > 0:00:47on all the top political stories this week.
0:00:47 > 0:00:50She's done the easy bit, now comes the hard part.
0:00:50 > 0:00:52As we move on to trade and transition talks with the EU,
0:00:52 > 0:00:57just what sort of deal is the Prime Minister aiming for?
0:00:57 > 0:01:00The issue of trade across the Irish border is likely to dominate
0:01:00 > 0:01:02those talks, we'll speak to the Northern Ireland
0:01:02 > 0:01:05Secretary James Brokenshire about what he thinks a solution
0:01:05 > 0:01:08to the problem could look like.
0:01:08 > 0:01:10Momentum, the group set up to support Jeremy Corbyn,
0:01:10 > 0:01:13is facing allegations it's trying to take over the Labour
0:01:13 > 0:01:18party, we'll investigate.
0:01:18 > 0:01:19In London.
0:01:19 > 0:01:22New figures show child poverty is projected to rise for the
0:01:22 > 0:01:23first time in a decade.
0:01:23 > 0:01:31Is the government doing enough?
0:01:31 > 0:01:35All that coming up in the programme.
0:01:35 > 0:01:41And with me today to try to make sense of is all, three journalists
0:01:41 > 0:01:43who are in full alignment with this week's political developments.
0:01:43 > 0:01:45Tim Shipman, Helen Lewis and Toby Young.
0:01:45 > 0:01:48The cliche that a week is a long time in politics has
0:01:48 > 0:01:49never been more apt.
0:01:49 > 0:01:52As Theresa May first appeared to be the brink of collapse,
0:01:52 > 0:01:55and then claimed victory with a deal to allow Brexit talks to move
0:01:55 > 0:01:56on to the next phase.
0:01:56 > 0:01:59Deal or no deal?
0:01:59 > 0:02:01The question that took Theresa May to Brussels not
0:02:01 > 0:02:03once but twice this week.
0:02:03 > 0:02:05On Monday it seemed it was all sorted.
0:02:05 > 0:02:07Time to move onto talks about trade.
0:02:07 > 0:02:09Then in stepped Arlene Foster.
0:02:09 > 0:02:13Northern Ireland must leave the European
0:02:13 > 0:02:17Union on the same terms as the rest of the United Kingdom.
0:02:17 > 0:02:19So lunch was left to go cold in Brussels as the
0:02:19 > 0:02:21PM rushed home to try and save the deal.
0:02:21 > 0:02:25The problem ran along the Irish border.
0:02:25 > 0:02:27Did promises of regulatory alignment mean Northern
0:02:27 > 0:02:30Ireland would operate differently from the rest of the UK?
0:02:30 > 0:02:33Unionist alarm bells could be heard in
0:02:33 > 0:02:37Westminster where Theresa May relies on their support.
0:02:37 > 0:02:39While others saw their chance to tell their own
0:02:39 > 0:02:44bespoke Brexit deal.
0:02:44 > 0:02:46So back to the drawing board and a chance for
0:02:46 > 0:02:47Labour to stick the boot in.
0:02:47 > 0:02:49What an embarrassment.
0:02:49 > 0:02:52Shambles.
0:02:52 > 0:02:54The last 24 hours have given a new meaning to
0:02:54 > 0:02:55the phrase coalition of chaos.
0:02:55 > 0:02:59There was a tricky moment for the Brexit
0:02:59 > 0:03:01secretary as he was quizzed over his economic impact studies that don't
0:03:01 > 0:03:07actually exist.
0:03:07 > 0:03:09So there isn't one, for example, on the automotive
0:03:09 > 0:03:11sector.
0:03:11 > 0:03:13On the automotive sector.
0:03:13 > 0:03:14Is there one on aerospace?
0:03:14 > 0:03:16No.
0:03:16 > 0:03:18One on financial services?
0:03:18 > 0:03:21I think the answer is going to be no to all of
0:03:21 > 0:03:22them.
0:03:22 > 0:03:23Right.
0:03:23 > 0:03:25By the Chancellor admitted the Cabinet has not yet
0:03:25 > 0:03:26debated future European trading relations.
0:03:26 > 0:03:28The Cabinet has had general discussions about how Brexit
0:03:28 > 0:03:31negotiations but we haven't had a specific, er, mandate of the
0:03:31 > 0:03:33position.
0:03:33 > 0:03:38At Prime Minister's Questions Brexiteers reminded the PM
0:03:38 > 0:03:42they too had lines they wouldn't cross.
0:03:42 > 0:03:51Will she apply a new coat of paint to her red lines because I
0:03:51 > 0:03:53fear on Monday they were beginning to look a little bit pink.
0:03:53 > 0:03:55Talks through the night on Thursday and
0:03:55 > 0:03:56finally, white smoke.
0:03:56 > 0:03:58Tweeted by Jean-Claude Juncker's chief of staff
0:03:58 > 0:03:59to signal a deal had been done.
0:03:59 > 0:04:014am Friday.
0:04:01 > 0:04:03The red eye back to Brussels, the Brexit Secretary's
0:04:03 > 0:04:05face told the story of a long night.
0:04:05 > 0:04:10A tweak of the words and a deal agreed.
0:04:10 > 0:04:12Sufficient progress has now been made on the strict
0:04:12 > 0:04:13terms of the divorce.
0:04:13 > 0:04:15Not everyone was happy.
0:04:15 > 0:04:18There are still matters there that we would have liked
0:04:18 > 0:04:20to have seen clarified.
0:04:20 > 0:04:22The whole thing is a humiliation.
0:04:22 > 0:04:24In a letter yesterday Environment Secretary Michael Gove
0:04:24 > 0:04:27said voters could change the deal if they don't like it.
0:04:27 > 0:04:35At the next general election.
0:04:35 > 0:04:39Let's unpack a week of remarkable political developments with our
0:04:39 > 0:04:42panel.
0:04:42 > 0:04:46Tim, the papers are claiming a marvellous victory for Theresa May,
0:04:46 > 0:04:51but this is a problem of her own making she managed to dig herself
0:04:51 > 0:04:55out of?The government announced immediately they had got a deal and
0:04:55 > 0:04:59it took them two and a half weeks to nail it down. It is worth
0:04:59 > 0:05:03remembering that when she went off to Brussels to Jean-Claude Juncker
0:05:03 > 0:05:09who said, don't come here unless you are ready to go. Theresa May kicked
0:05:09 > 0:05:13him out of his office for an hour while she begged Arlene Foster to
0:05:13 > 0:05:18get in line and initially, it wasn't happening because they hadn't nailed
0:05:18 > 0:05:22it down. People say, why weren't all these civil servants and people who
0:05:22 > 0:05:28know about how to deal with these guys, engaged in this process? The
0:05:28 > 0:05:31separation between the Northern Ireland Office and Downing Street,
0:05:31 > 0:05:34the whip office was negligent and they should have been holding hands
0:05:34 > 0:05:38with the DUP and Tilly was taken over the line. Disaster was only
0:05:38 > 0:05:46narrowly averted. They were saying earlier in the week, this is a
0:05:46 > 0:05:50catastrophe and Theresa May needs to go.But she pulled it out in the
0:05:50 > 0:05:55end. We were talking about takeover plots, Theresa May might lose her
0:05:55 > 0:05:59job and now it is a victory.When you are talking about this, you have
0:05:59 > 0:06:04to divorce the theatre around it and the last-minute concessions, which
0:06:04 > 0:06:08will not end. The question is what happens when the Forge recedes.
0:06:08 > 0:06:13Everyone has something out of this deal because there is no clarity.
0:06:13 > 0:06:17Arlene Foster said they wanted clarity. Both sides when they get
0:06:17 > 0:06:22the clarity will be unhappy, but the question is what they will do about
0:06:22 > 0:06:27it.Toby, both people on both sides of the Brexit debate in the Tory
0:06:27 > 0:06:32party, who are claiming they are very, very happy. They can't all be
0:06:32 > 0:06:39happy.I am not surprised the Brexiteers our content. There are
0:06:39 > 0:06:43various things the remain as predicted couldn't be achieved. They
0:06:43 > 0:06:48thought they would be a backbench rebellion. Now that looks like the
0:06:48 > 0:06:54divorce bill will sail through. A lot of Remainers thought the state
0:06:54 > 0:07:04is of EU nationals would remain uncertain for long time. This makes
0:07:04 > 0:07:09no Deal Brexit less likely that was always the Remainers best of
0:07:09 > 0:07:13reversing the result of the referendum.Now we're left with the
0:07:13 > 0:07:18question, what does full alignment mean. David Davis asked that that
0:07:18 > 0:07:19this morning.
0:07:19 > 0:07:20It means outcomes.
0:07:20 > 0:07:22It means...
0:07:22 > 0:07:23If I arrived in two cars, they are next
0:07:23 > 0:07:25to each other.
0:07:25 > 0:07:27Well, Northern Ireland is next to the Republic of Ireland.
0:07:27 > 0:07:30Yes, and it will have next to regulations, it will be very
0:07:30 > 0:07:31similar.
0:07:31 > 0:07:32There will be some similarities.
0:07:32 > 0:07:34Again, the Prime Minister laid this out in her
0:07:34 > 0:07:35Florence speech.
0:07:35 > 0:07:38She said there are areas where we will want similar
0:07:38 > 0:07:40outcomes and we'll have similar methods to achieve them.
0:07:40 > 0:07:43There will be areas where we have similar
0:07:43 > 0:07:46outcomes where there will be different methods to achieve them.
0:07:46 > 0:07:49That's going to be true of a lot of product areas, a lot of
0:07:49 > 0:07:50manufacturing.
0:07:50 > 0:07:52There will be areas where we want different outcomes and
0:07:52 > 0:07:56we will use different methods.
0:07:56 > 0:08:02That was clear as mud, Toby, what do you think full alignment means?I
0:08:02 > 0:08:06don't think we should spend as much time as you seem to want to,
0:08:06 > 0:08:11discussing it. As Michael Gove clarified, it doesn't have any legal
0:08:11 > 0:08:16force. It doesn't have any binding, legal force. It hasn't got to the
0:08:16 > 0:08:20stage of the treaty. It might be difficult to unwind because it is
0:08:20 > 0:08:25the basis of an agreement. But nonetheless, it is not binding and a
0:08:25 > 0:08:31lot is left to play for.It is what got the DUP on-board, finding a form
0:08:31 > 0:08:37of words which could be what you wanted them to.People wanting
0:08:37 > 0:08:40immigration cut without the economy taking a hit. The same thing with
0:08:40 > 0:08:46the DUP, they want to stay aligned to prison, but they don't want their
0:08:46 > 0:08:50agriculture, Northern Ireland is one of the biggest industries, to take a
0:08:50 > 0:08:55massive hit from a hard border. So you are trying to reconcile two
0:08:55 > 0:09:01contradictory impulses. That Philip Hammond clip is extraordinary saying
0:09:01 > 0:09:04the Cabinet have a discuss where they think this ends up in the end.
0:09:04 > 0:09:10That is where the row will be. Number Ten is specifically briefing
0:09:10 > 0:09:19full alignment, so we haven't solved anything.It is a verb, he converge,
0:09:19 > 0:09:24I don't do converge, we have full alignment. The Conservative Party
0:09:24 > 0:09:29managed to get through a general election where they had half of
0:09:29 > 0:09:35their supporters hardline. This may help them keep the show on the road.
0:09:35 > 0:09:40We will be talking to all three of you throughout the programme.
0:09:40 > 0:09:42So it was the arrangements to avoid a hard border
0:09:42 > 0:09:44between Northern Ireland and the Republic that
0:09:44 > 0:09:45threatened to scupper progress in the Brexit talks.
0:09:45 > 0:09:47And there remains confusion over exactly what it
0:09:47 > 0:09:48is that's been agreed.
0:09:48 > 0:09:51Hopefully we can clarify some of that with the Secretary of State
0:09:51 > 0:09:55for Northern Ireland James Brokenshire.
0:09:55 > 0:09:58Thanks for coming in. Can we go back to the beginning of the week and the
0:09:58 > 0:10:04discussions with the DUP. Where you involved in that?It is worth
0:10:04 > 0:10:08stressing this is a fast-moving situation. When the Prime Minister
0:10:08 > 0:10:12was in Brussels at the start of the week, the text hadn't been agreed.
0:10:12 > 0:10:17That is why we've got the conclusion with the text effectively now being
0:10:17 > 0:10:21able to go on to the second phase. Where you part of the back and
0:10:21 > 0:10:26forward between Number Ten and the DUP?I don't want to get into the
0:10:26 > 0:10:30details, but I have been involved, supporting the Prime Minister and
0:10:30 > 0:10:34making sure we have got sufficient progress and why we have the benefit
0:10:34 > 0:10:40of moving into phase two, which is worth we can solve the issues with
0:10:40 > 0:10:42relation to Northern Ireland.He was a significant failure at the
0:10:42 > 0:10:50beginning of the week to flight to Brussels without the DUP agreeing on
0:10:50 > 0:10:56the text.It was a fast-moving situation.Why go for lunch with
0:10:56 > 0:11:02Jean-Claude Juncker if there wasn't agreed text?It was to continue the
0:11:02 > 0:11:05discussions.The Prime Minister didn't think she had a deal on
0:11:05 > 0:11:09Monday, she went to Brussels knowing there wasn't an agreement with the
0:11:09 > 0:11:15DUP.The text wasn't agreed, as I have underlined on a few occasions
0:11:15 > 0:11:19already in this interview. It is how we have secured what we needed to
0:11:19 > 0:11:25do. We needed to give that assurance in relation to Northern Ireland's
0:11:25 > 0:11:28constitutional status in ensuring trade between Northern Ireland and
0:11:28 > 0:11:32Great Britain could remain unfettered. That is important and we
0:11:32 > 0:11:37can now solve this on phase two.The agreement said there would be full
0:11:37 > 0:11:42alignment with the EU in the event of no deal. It doesn't say anything
0:11:42 > 0:11:46how you will avoid a hard border if there is a trade deal with the EU.
0:11:46 > 0:11:50You are looking at paragraph 49 of the agreement. First and foremost,
0:11:50 > 0:11:56this is about securing a free trade agreement. Secondly, if that isn't
0:11:56 > 0:12:01sufficient you move onto specific solutions to deal with the unique
0:12:01 > 0:12:04circumstances of Northern Ireland. Only through an agreed outcome, do
0:12:04 > 0:12:08you move on to the issue of alignment, which I'm sure we will
0:12:08 > 0:12:13discuss further.Your preferred option is to have the free trade.
0:12:13 > 0:12:19Absolutely.Nothing has been solved on how you avoid a hard border
0:12:19 > 0:12:22between Northern Ireland and the republic if you have a free-trade
0:12:22 > 0:12:30deal.We were never going to solve this in the first phase how this
0:12:30 > 0:12:35agreement, we want to secure is firmly in Ireland's interest, given
0:12:35 > 0:12:38the nature of trade between Ireland and the whole of the United Kingdom.
0:12:38 > 0:12:42That is why we go into this second phase with confidence we can secure
0:12:42 > 0:12:48the positive outcome, which is the best way to solve this.The Irish
0:12:48 > 0:12:53Taoiseach says it is clear in which way it is going. He says we believe
0:12:53 > 0:12:57the UK and Northern Ireland will remain in alignment with the EU. Is
0:12:57 > 0:13:03that your understanding?I think he underlines we could come to
0:13:03 > 0:13:07different arrangements. It wasn't about the same, somehow we would
0:13:07 > 0:13:12stay within the customs union, the single market. We are not. The text
0:13:12 > 0:13:16says clearly, we are leaving and Northern Ireland will be part of
0:13:16 > 0:13:23that. Having shared outcomes may mean we may achieve that to the same
0:13:23 > 0:13:28or substantially the same way, or very differently.It cannot be too
0:13:28 > 0:13:32different if you have to maintain this idea you don't have a hard
0:13:32 > 0:13:36border between Northern Ireland and the republic. How does this allow
0:13:36 > 0:13:40you to strike free trade deals with the United States for instance, if
0:13:40 > 0:13:42you have got to maintain either alignment or come to some of the
0:13:42 > 0:13:45United States for instance, if you have got to maintain either
0:13:45 > 0:13:47alignment or come to some other border solution?Let's take a couple
0:13:47 > 0:13:50of examples. In relation to data daylight, have your prescription
0:13:50 > 0:13:57service nor those -- north or south of the border. How that can converge
0:13:57 > 0:14:06between Ireland and the UK. Things like agriculture.Let's talk about
0:14:06 > 0:14:10agriculture. If we were to strike a free trade deal with the US, they
0:14:10 > 0:14:16have made it clear we will have to diverged from EU rules on some
0:14:16 > 0:14:19agricultural standards, like chlorine washed chicken, how can we
0:14:19 > 0:14:25do the kind of deal the US will insist on and still maintain these
0:14:25 > 0:14:30border arrangements?We are yet to get into those discussions.They
0:14:30 > 0:14:34have been to London and they have said, if we stay too closely aligned
0:14:34 > 0:14:39with the EU we will be able to get a deal with the US.We're not going to
0:14:39 > 0:14:43somehow compromise our food safety standards to have a race to the
0:14:43 > 0:14:47bottom. That is why knowing the integrated nature of the food sector
0:14:47 > 0:14:54on island, is why we said we are proud to look at alignment with
0:14:54 > 0:14:59agricultural standards.That tie your hands. Why does the former
0:14:59 > 0:15:03Brexit minister himself say it will handicap our ability to enter into
0:15:03 > 0:15:09free-trade arrangements?We have difference across the United Kingdom
0:15:09 > 0:15:11over some of these devolved issues. It doesn't create barriers within
0:15:11 > 0:15:19the UK market. We are compliant with the same rules as the EU and it is
0:15:19 > 0:15:23positive decisions we might take. When it comes down to this issue,
0:15:23 > 0:15:27there won't be this race to the bottom in relation to standards.It
0:15:27 > 0:15:33is important to understand. You are tying the government's hands in its
0:15:33 > 0:15:37ability to strike the free trade deals that was supposed to create
0:15:37 > 0:15:41the optimistic post Brexit future proclaimed by the government.It is
0:15:41 > 0:15:46why we want to yes, secure the positive free-trade agreement, Abbas
0:15:46 > 0:15:51Bogue agreement with our EU partners, but equally, which we
0:15:51 > 0:15:53don't have, the flexibility to negotiate trade deals around the
0:15:53 > 0:16:01world so have the benefit of having to do that.
0:16:01 > 0:16:04The answer to this free trade deals is how you manage the border between
0:16:04 > 0:16:09the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, that has not been answered.
0:16:09 > 0:16:12We've set up the framework, we've not been able to have these
0:16:12 > 0:16:17discussions yet. That's why it was so important, where it was a really
0:16:17 > 0:16:21positive achievement that Theresa May secured by moving into phase two
0:16:21 > 0:16:24where we can do just that. To look at all these different elements we
0:16:24 > 0:16:29been working hard on with the EU that need to be solved whether
0:16:29 > 0:16:32through the free trade agreement, whether through specific
0:16:32 > 0:16:39circumstances to meet these issues, and protecting the ability from
0:16:39 > 0:16:48people to move from Northern Ireland's, into the Republic, really
0:16:48 > 0:16:50importantly underlining the significance of the Good Friday
0:16:50 > 0:16:54Agreement.The Prime Minister significantly said no deal was
0:16:54 > 0:16:59better than a bad deal. What this means in Brussels as if there is no
0:16:59 > 0:17:03do we have to stay in full alignment with the rules and regulations, is
0:17:03 > 0:17:08that the possible?Is the document states, nothing is agreed until
0:17:08 > 0:17:14everything is agreed.In the situation of no deal, nothing would
0:17:14 > 0:17:19be agreed and that is the circumstance in which this deal
0:17:19 > 0:17:23kicks in...?This document doesn't commit in that way. We are not
0:17:23 > 0:17:29contemplating a notable situation. The Prime Minister has frequently
0:17:29 > 0:17:33contemplated that, saying no deal is better than a bad deal.I think it
0:17:33 > 0:17:39says this in a good way, to secure this positive outcome that agreement
0:17:39 > 0:17:44with our EU partners. We will only do that if it is acceptable. Under
0:17:44 > 0:17:49the no deal statements that the Prime Minister has made.When this
0:17:49 > 0:17:54agreement says, in the event of no deal, we will maintain full
0:17:54 > 0:18:00alignment, you say this doesn't mean no deal?This document doesn't deal
0:18:00 > 0:18:04with no deal. That's what I'm saying. Paragraph five...So in the
0:18:04 > 0:18:09absence of agreed solutions the UK will maintain full alignment with
0:18:09 > 0:18:14the rules of the customs union? Paragraph five scissors and
0:18:14 > 0:18:20agreement being reached...So you need an agreement before you have
0:18:20 > 0:18:24absence of agreed solutions.It is about the three tiered approach will
0:18:24 > 0:18:28take, free-trade agreements, dealing with unique circumstances and then
0:18:28 > 0:18:32moving onto the alignment issues. It is this three tiered approach that
0:18:32 > 0:18:37will inform the negotiations. This is why I say this provides us with a
0:18:37 > 0:18:41positive backdrop to go into phase two, to get positive outcomes in
0:18:41 > 0:18:44ensuring there is no barrier between the Republic of Ireland and Northern
0:18:44 > 0:18:50Ireland. I take the positive viewpoint, around getting agreement,
0:18:50 > 0:18:54securing that bright positive future for Northern Ireland and the UK as a
0:18:54 > 0:19:02whole which is what that does.James Brokenshire, thank you. Tim, are you
0:19:02 > 0:19:07a clearer? On what has been agreed? Much less clear. What is the scope
0:19:07 > 0:19:11of this alignment issue? If you listen to government ministers, and
0:19:11 > 0:19:14David Davis earlier and James has said nothing that contradicts that,
0:19:14 > 0:19:19you are talking about big areas like agriculture and energy. David Davis
0:19:19 > 0:19:23said it would cover four areas, is put to someone in the Irish
0:19:23 > 0:19:27government has said and covered 142 areas, there's quite a big gap
0:19:27 > 0:19:31between them and we haven't yet bridged that intellectually, it
0:19:31 > 0:19:36seems.And not much clearer on what if there is no deal.We would crash
0:19:36 > 0:19:40out which would be definitely worse than a bad deal. An appalling
0:19:40 > 0:19:44outcome. I think the whole issue of these agricultural standards is
0:19:44 > 0:19:48fascinating because it reveals the difference between the average Leave
0:19:48 > 0:19:55voter and the average person on the right, the free trader who is not
0:19:55 > 0:19:59worried about safety standards and is fine with chlorine tipped chicken
0:19:59 > 0:20:03but we no one that free-trade Dale got bounced out of contention one
0:20:03 > 0:20:06thing that revolted people with the idea of lower animal safety
0:20:06 > 0:20:10standards, food covered in bacteria then washed in chlorine. So you have
0:20:10 > 0:20:15one wing of the Tory party who are OK with that and people who voted
0:20:15 > 0:20:21Leave who are not.Is it still on the table, this idea of no deal?It
0:20:21 > 0:20:27has to be, until we've concluded a deal, because otherwise our
0:20:27 > 0:20:30negotiating position is weaker. In some ways the way that we've managed
0:20:30 > 0:20:35to agree on what the status of EU National 's would-be and what the
0:20:35 > 0:20:38role of the ECJ would be for eight years after we leave, suggest that
0:20:38 > 0:20:44even in the absence of a trade deal or even a transition deal being
0:20:44 > 0:20:46successfully negotiated we could nonetheless put a minimal deal in
0:20:46 > 0:20:50place which could guarantee the rights of UK National is here and
0:20:50 > 0:20:55British nationals in Europe. So in that way it makes no deal a little
0:20:55 > 0:21:01less unpalatable but I think we will still get a deal.Thanks for that.
0:21:01 > 0:21:03Well, discussions of what the government wants its final
0:21:03 > 0:21:06deal to look like also brings into focus what Labour's
0:21:06 > 0:21:07plans would be.
0:21:07 > 0:21:09Speaking this morning Labour's Shadow Brexit Secretary Keir Starmer
0:21:09 > 0:21:13argued that Britain should remain as close to the EU as possible.
0:21:13 > 0:21:16How we negotiate that agreement with the EU is a matter for
0:21:16 > 0:21:17negotiation.
0:21:17 > 0:21:20It doesn't mean it's cut and paste, but we do have a
0:21:20 > 0:21:23choice, do we want to stay aligned so we can trade successfully or do
0:21:23 > 0:21:25we want to tear apart?
0:21:25 > 0:21:26And I say we should stay aligned.
0:21:26 > 0:21:29We are talking about what sort of Britain we are
0:21:29 > 0:21:32going to be and what the next 40 or 50 years might look like.
0:21:32 > 0:21:34I don't think anybody voted to make it
0:21:34 > 0:21:37harder to trade with Europe.
0:21:37 > 0:21:41Emily Thornberry, Labour's shadow foreign affairs spokesperson, is
0:21:41 > 0:21:44with me now. Thank you for coming in. That was Keir Starmer this
0:21:44 > 0:21:49morning. I don't want to put words into his mouth or yours but I
0:21:49 > 0:21:53interpret that as saying, we are not staying in the single market, that
0:21:53 > 0:21:56is not the Labour position but we want to maintain many of the
0:21:56 > 0:22:01arrangements we have with the single market. Is that right?We've always
0:22:01 > 0:22:05said we have to accept the results of the referendum, we have some
0:22:05 > 0:22:09tests to be abided by to get a good deal so we need to be able to get
0:22:09 > 0:22:13the full advantage of access to the single market and the customs union.
0:22:13 > 0:22:17To achieve that what Keir Starmer seemed to be saying was that was a
0:22:17 > 0:22:21closely aligned to the rules and regulations of the EU, possibly even
0:22:21 > 0:22:25pay for access to the free market and while free movement of people
0:22:25 > 0:22:28wouldn't he said they should be easy movement of people from the UK to
0:22:28 > 0:22:32the EU and vice versa. Is that really respecting the referendum
0:22:32 > 0:22:36result?We have to leave the European Union that there's no
0:22:36 > 0:22:42reason why we don't need go a long way. It would not be respecting the
0:22:42 > 0:22:45referendum and the sentiment that has expressed during the referendum
0:22:45 > 0:22:49if we did not move, after leaving the European Union, to a system
0:22:49 > 0:22:53where we had fair rules and managed migration, so people could easily
0:22:53 > 0:22:58travel across Europe and those that we need to have an ox economy - this
0:22:58 > 0:23:07we need an our economy can stay and that will help us.If we are staying
0:23:07 > 0:23:11closely aligned to the rules and regulations of the EU why we have no
0:23:11 > 0:23:16say in the formation of those rules how is that taking back control?
0:23:16 > 0:23:20We're going to leave and it seems to us that people wanted to leave, they
0:23:20 > 0:23:24wanted some form of control over migration and fair rules and managed
0:23:24 > 0:23:27migration is what we want but they did not vote to lose their jobs
0:23:27 > 0:23:33offer their neighbours to lose their jobs. We need to prioritise the
0:23:33 > 0:23:36economy and trade when it came to negotiations and people should be in
0:23:36 > 0:23:40no doubt that our biggest trading partner is the European Union. It
0:23:40 > 0:23:44would be economically ridiculous for us to march off into the Atlantic
0:23:44 > 0:23:48and say, we are turning our backs on the European Union. To go into deals
0:23:48 > 0:23:54with them we'd need the same rules when it came to our exporting of
0:23:54 > 0:23:57carrots or anything else. If you want to export vacuum cleaners to
0:23:57 > 0:24:01Europe they need to have the same safety standards as the rest of
0:24:01 > 0:24:07Europe.Do you think people who voted to leave will be happy that we
0:24:07 > 0:24:11would follow and mirror the rules and regulations of EU when we have
0:24:11 > 0:24:17no say in their creation now, we become will takers and not makers?
0:24:17 > 0:24:22What we've said is that we need an interim period when we negotiate
0:24:22 > 0:24:26properly and have a long-standing relationship with EU. When it comes
0:24:26 > 0:24:29to exporting goods clearly we need the same standards and don't want to
0:24:29 > 0:24:33undercut European standards, nobody wants and implement controls, we
0:24:33 > 0:24:37need all these things to be less in Britain than in the rest of Europe,
0:24:37 > 0:24:42well, some Tories do but we don't and we are clear about that.That
0:24:42 > 0:24:47would constrain our ability to sign free trade deals with other
0:24:47 > 0:24:51countries. The more closely aligned we stay with EU the less movement we
0:24:51 > 0:24:58will have to sign a new deal with the USA for example.What we need is
0:24:58 > 0:25:01a custom-built arrangement between Britain and the rest of Europe. We'd
0:25:01 > 0:25:05need to be in a form of the customs union and closely aligned to the
0:25:05 > 0:25:09single market and that might give us room to make the that is something
0:25:09 > 0:25:13we need to be involved in negotiation...That is clearly of
0:25:13 > 0:25:17secondary importance to you, the ability to strike new deals with
0:25:17 > 0:25:22third countries.We've always been pragmatic, most of our trade has
0:25:22 > 0:25:26been with EU. We're just stating a fact and we shouldn't put the kibosh
0:25:26 > 0:25:31on that.Are you happy with the agreement Theresa May struck this
0:25:31 > 0:25:36week?Really don't understand it. I've looked at it, I don't
0:25:36 > 0:25:41understand. I think probably what she is doing is she's rubbed at some
0:25:41 > 0:25:45of her red lines, and that's good because you shouldn't go into
0:25:45 > 0:25:49negotiations with hard red lines like she has. I don't understand how
0:25:49 > 0:25:53on one hand she is saying she's going to align and on the other hand
0:25:53 > 0:25:57will be out of the single market on the customs union. It doesn't really
0:25:57 > 0:26:01make any sense to me.I thought that was the position you said Labour
0:26:01 > 0:26:04win, leaving the single market on the customs union but wanting to
0:26:04 > 0:26:09stay aligned to Europe and is regulations...They say they've
0:26:09 > 0:26:14swept any form of customs union of the table. That's what I understand.
0:26:14 > 0:26:17She is swept away any suggestion that the European Court of Justice
0:26:17 > 0:26:20would have anything to do with any rules. She seems to be busily
0:26:20 > 0:26:24putting them back on the table again. That's probably a good thing.
0:26:24 > 0:26:28What a waste of time. Because wouldn't it have been good to have
0:26:28 > 0:26:31began on a pragmatic, realistic basis and we might have got further
0:26:31 > 0:26:37than we have now. We are running out of time.What is Labour's answer to
0:26:37 > 0:26:43the question of the border between the northern Ireland and the
0:26:43 > 0:26:46Republic of Ireland, how do you avoid hardboard?The further we go
0:26:46 > 0:26:49from the EU, the harder it is to have a soft border. What we have
0:26:49 > 0:26:53said without that a form of customs union is a viable option. Melbourne
0:26:53 > 0:26:57has come up with any other suggestion.This idea, it says in
0:26:57 > 0:27:01the agreement that was struck with EU in the absence of any other
0:27:01 > 0:27:05agreement, this idea that we would maintain the full alignment with the
0:27:05 > 0:27:09rules and regulations come you are satisfied that it works well for the
0:27:09 > 0:27:13UK and EU and solves the border question?Of course there has to be
0:27:13 > 0:27:17a form of alignment, of course the European Court of Justice need staff
0:27:17 > 0:27:20an ongoing relationship with British justice in the way we put forward
0:27:20 > 0:27:26rules when we are working with the rest of the EU. Why have we denied
0:27:26 > 0:27:32at all this time, it is self-evident and continues to be so.It is
0:27:32 > 0:27:37proposed that an amendment be put forward that would give MPs a
0:27:37 > 0:27:40meaningful vote on this while there is still time for more negotiation
0:27:40 > 0:27:44rather than at the end of negotiations, will Labour support
0:27:44 > 0:27:48that?We have always said this. From the outset we have said, why should
0:27:48 > 0:27:52parliaments across the rest of Europe have a vote on this, and the
0:27:52 > 0:27:56European Parliament have a vote, the people of Walloons will have a lot
0:27:56 > 0:28:02in it, why not the British people? That has to be a meaningful vote. --
0:28:02 > 0:28:05one at the British Parliament. They will have to factor in what the
0:28:05 > 0:28:08British Parliament thinks. And many people in the British Parliament
0:28:08 > 0:28:12will not accept no deal, for example. If they think they are
0:28:12 > 0:28:14going to come to the British Parliament with no deal is an option
0:28:14 > 0:28:18they have another think coming. There's another amendment to the Lib
0:28:18 > 0:28:23Dems want, to put forward the option of remaining in the single market.
0:28:23 > 0:28:26Vince Cable has said it is specifically designed to flush out
0:28:26 > 0:28:29the Labour Party by asking straight out will you support this amendment
0:28:29 > 0:28:34or not with the option of staying in the single market. How would Labour
0:28:34 > 0:28:40vote on that?We are leaving the EU, we need a custom made deal with the
0:28:40 > 0:28:44EU. We need to be able to respect the views of the British people as
0:28:44 > 0:28:47expressed in the referendum and one debate was about ensuring that we
0:28:47 > 0:28:51have more control of migration. We've been told that the four
0:28:51 > 0:28:55freedoms mean we can't stay in the single market as it currently is so
0:28:55 > 0:28:59we need a different deal. Those other things we should have focused
0:28:59 > 0:29:03on rack from the outset.Emily Thornberry, thank you very much for
0:29:03 > 0:29:06coming in this morning.
0:29:06 > 0:29:09There have been a number of reports in the press recently accusing
0:29:09 > 0:29:11the Labour pressure group Momentum of forcing serving Labour
0:29:11 > 0:29:13councillors off the ballot paper for re-election in favour
0:29:13 > 0:29:14of their own candidates.
0:29:14 > 0:29:17Sources close to Momentum argue they are simply helping to reflect
0:29:17 > 0:29:19the new make-up of the Labour Party.
0:29:19 > 0:29:20So is there any truth in the allegations?
0:29:20 > 0:29:30Elizabeth Glinka has been to Brighton to find out.
0:29:31 > 0:29:33They say to keep your friends close and your
0:29:33 > 0:29:36enemies closer, and in the
0:29:36 > 0:29:38Labour Party in Brighton they are
0:29:38 > 0:29:46very close indeed. Here, as in many other parts of the country,
0:29:46 > 0:29:51there are suggestions that Momentum is attempting to seize control and
0:29:51 > 0:29:52ultimately replace sitting councillors with candidates of their
0:29:52 > 0:29:57own choosing.
0:29:57 > 0:30:00Two weeks ago Momentum won all nine positions on the
0:30:00 > 0:30:02committee which will organise the selection of candidates
0:30:02 > 0:30:04for the next City Council elections in 2019.
0:30:04 > 0:30:06Local activists have spoken about installing the first Socialist
0:30:06 > 0:30:08council in the city, the implication being that the current Labour
0:30:08 > 0:30:10council is not quite socialist enough.
0:30:10 > 0:30:18If you talk to people from Momentum, they will say to you, we
0:30:18 > 0:30:19have brought in all these new members, they're
0:30:19 > 0:30:21full of enthusiasm,
0:30:21 > 0:30:31why shouldn't we have our people moving in to take over the party,
0:30:31 > 0:30:45we are the future of the party.
0:30:45 > 0:30:47Is there bullying going on in Brighton?
0:30:47 > 0:30:48I think there has been.
0:30:48 > 0:30:51And I think that has predominantly been from people
0:30:51 > 0:30:53outside the Labour Party and it is not acceptable.
0:30:53 > 0:30:55Wouldn't be accurate to say that Momentum members and
0:30:55 > 0:30:58some of the new Labour Party members are mobilising against the existing
0:30:58 > 0:30:59councillors?
0:30:59 > 0:31:02I think there has been some chatter about that and a lot of
0:31:02 > 0:31:06that has been from those who are not in the party at the present time.
0:31:06 > 0:31:08Once people are not members of the Labour Party,
0:31:08 > 0:31:10they can't share our values and therefore they should be
0:31:10 > 0:31:12excluded from Momentum.
0:31:12 > 0:31:21And that would be a way to unify the party in
0:31:21 > 0:31:23Brighton and Hove and around the country.
0:31:23 > 0:31:33As a former minister in the Blair government you might expect of
0:31:33 > 0:31:36a captain to take that view.
0:31:36 > 0:31:38I spoke to a number of Labour Party
0:31:38 > 0:31:40members who said they had experienced intimidation and that
0:31:40 > 0:31:42Momentum was authoritarian and brutal to existing councillors.
0:31:42 > 0:31:44None would agree to appear on camera.
0:31:44 > 0:31:47While I was in Brighton a Momentum activist posted this video and
0:31:47 > 0:31:48social media.
0:31:48 > 0:31:49The faces of three Labour councillors including the
0:31:49 > 0:31:51council leader had been superimposed.
0:31:51 > 0:31:53Something I put to a local Momentum organiser Greg
0:31:53 > 0:31:55Hadfield, who is currently suspended from the Labour Party.
0:31:55 > 0:31:58I haven't seen it so I'm not going to comment on it.
0:31:58 > 0:31:59And you think that is?
0:31:59 > 0:32:01I'm happy to get back to you and have
0:32:01 > 0:32:03considered view but I haven't seen it.
0:32:03 > 0:32:06I have spoken to a number of people across the party in Brighton
0:32:06 > 0:32:10and Hove, some of them tell me that Momentum are using bullying tactics,
0:32:10 > 0:32:13that the party is very divided and they feel not able to speak up
0:32:13 > 0:32:15and air their views.
0:32:15 > 0:32:18They are saying that on the record?
0:32:18 > 0:32:22Because I think that's shocking smears.
0:32:22 > 0:32:24What we have seen in Brighton and Hove in the
0:32:24 > 0:32:27last 18 months is a massive upsurge in democratic, decent democratic
0:32:27 > 0:32:32engagement with party members.
0:32:32 > 0:32:37Anyone who says that, first of all they are lying,
0:32:37 > 0:32:40but also they don't have the best interests of the party.
0:32:40 > 0:32:42Would you like to get rid of the current
0:32:42 > 0:32:44cohort of councillors in Brighton and Hove,
0:32:44 > 0:32:46the Labour councillors.
0:32:46 > 0:32:49I would love it for members to elect the best
0:32:49 > 0:32:51representatives of this Labour Party that they can.
0:32:51 > 0:32:58If that is bullying, if that is not democratic, if that
0:32:58 > 0:33:00is deselecting, then people saying that have a very
0:33:00 > 0:33:02strange view of democracy.
0:33:02 > 0:33:05Overnight Labour suspended the member who posted the video.
0:33:05 > 0:33:08He denied was anti-Semitic and issued an apology.
0:33:08 > 0:33:12Away from Brighton the deselection of Labour
0:33:12 > 0:33:14councillors in Haringey and in other London boroughs has
0:33:14 > 0:33:18made the national press.
0:33:18 > 0:33:20There have been deselection is in other places as
0:33:20 > 0:33:22well including Hastings and by just aware the
0:33:22 > 0:33:25former mayor is among the casualties.
0:33:25 > 0:33:28I think we need a cultural message from the top.
0:33:28 > 0:33:30Momentum clearly have a place in the Labour movement now
0:33:30 > 0:33:32although they are not affiliated with the party
0:33:32 > 0:33:34formally they have brought energy and ideas to the party.
0:33:34 > 0:33:36That is no bad thing.
0:33:36 > 0:33:38But Jeremy Corbyn is not just the party leader but the
0:33:38 > 0:33:41figurehead of momentum, he has to send a message
0:33:41 > 0:33:43to all his troops, if you like around the country,
0:33:43 > 0:33:45saying perhaps, not in my name.
0:33:45 > 0:33:47Having spoken to people from across the
0:33:47 > 0:33:53Labour Party in Brighton, there are those that
0:33:53 > 0:33:56will tell you that the party is more united than ever before
0:33:56 > 0:33:58and they are incredibly positive about the future.
0:33:58 > 0:34:00But on the other side even people who
0:34:00 > 0:34:03describe themselves as being on the left say they feel despondent
0:34:03 > 0:34:09and that the atmosphere can only be described as toxic.
0:34:09 > 0:34:12Well we asked Momentum if someone could come on to discuss the issues
0:34:12 > 0:34:18raised in that film but no one was available.
0:34:18 > 0:34:25Never mind, we have our panel of experts. Helen, is it perfectly
0:34:25 > 0:34:30legitimate for momentum to get their own candidate selected. They are in
0:34:30 > 0:34:36the ascendancy now, so why shouldn't they have more candidates?They have
0:34:36 > 0:34:43a legitimate position and they are entitled to push it forward. But it
0:34:43 > 0:34:46is controlled by two Private limited companies and the data is in the
0:34:46 > 0:34:54hands of one man. They talk about progress and the Fabians, it is
0:34:54 > 0:34:59around Jeremy Corbyn as a person. The third thing, they are very
0:34:59 > 0:35:03successful in terms of making viral videos and they are an effective,
0:35:03 > 0:35:07organising force and that is why people are so worried.Momentum do
0:35:07 > 0:35:12show the way politics is going, they are fantastic at mobilising people,
0:35:12 > 0:35:17reaching their supporters and doing it in different ways, are centrists
0:35:17 > 0:35:21in the Labour Party frightened by their success?Definitely and that
0:35:21 > 0:35:25is why they haven't been able to put up a better fight. To claim this is
0:35:25 > 0:35:32an undemocratic, because votes have been taken before Momentum takes
0:35:32 > 0:35:36control like the Brighton & Hove Albion are to, is absurd. It isn't
0:35:36 > 0:35:42democratic because a small neo-Nazis calls will be holding the Labour
0:35:42 > 0:35:49Party to ransom. It doesn't matter whether they can sit out at these
0:35:49 > 0:35:56meetings until 2am until moderates have to go home. It doesn't make it
0:35:56 > 0:36:05a takeover, it is definitely not democratic as it would be if Britain
0:36:05 > 0:36:12First took over the Labour Party.Is that fair?The problem is calling it
0:36:12 > 0:36:18tiny. It isn't tiny any more. The last lot of people campaigning on
0:36:18 > 0:36:22the streets for Labour were involved in Momentum. If you look at their
0:36:22 > 0:36:29social media, 60% of voters saw a Momentum video on their Facebook
0:36:29 > 0:36:35feeds during the general election and Momentum spent £2000 on it.
0:36:35 > 0:36:40Everything else spread virally. There is a popularity and yes they
0:36:40 > 0:36:44are a bunch of old leftie Marxists, but on the other side there is
0:36:44 > 0:36:51people cheering the Jeremy Corbyn, they have come together and it is a
0:36:51 > 0:36:58powerful force and no wonder the Blairites and motorists are worried.
0:36:58 > 0:37:04It is a form of bullying?You have these optimistic people who want to
0:37:04 > 0:37:09change the world, tied up with a group of people who are effective
0:37:09 > 0:37:16organisers and behave in a substandard way a lot of the time.
0:37:16 > 0:37:21To compare them with Britain First is over the top. To compare it with
0:37:21 > 0:37:27an organisation whose explicit purpose is to advance racist
0:37:27 > 0:37:32propaganda is unfair.We will leave that therefore now.
0:37:32 > 0:37:35It's coming up to 11.40, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
0:37:35 > 0:37:37Coming up on the programme, we hit the streets to find out
0:37:37 > 0:37:40if people are looking on the bright side of Brexit.
0:37:40 > 0:37:42I'm with Christmas shoppers in Basingstoke to ask,
0:37:42 > 0:37:45when it comes to what we may get in that final Brexit deal,
0:37:45 > 0:37:47are you an optimist or a pessimist?
0:37:47 > 0:37:54First though, its time for the Sunday Politics where you are.
0:37:54 > 0:37:57Hello and welcome to the London part of the show.
0:37:57 > 0:38:00I'm Jo Coburn.
0:38:00 > 0:38:02And I'm joined for the duration by
0:38:02 > 0:38:11Bambos Charalambous, the new Labour MP for Enfield Southgate and
0:38:11 > 0:38:13Mark Field Foreign Office minister and Conservative MP for the Cities
0:38:13 > 0:38:14of London and Westminster.
0:38:14 > 0:38:15Welcome to both of you.
0:38:15 > 0:38:18I want to start with Brexit for a change, with phase one
0:38:18 > 0:38:21of the negotiations out of the way, the Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan,
0:38:21 > 0:38:24said he welcomed the agreement and EU citizens living in the UK and
0:38:24 > 0:38:26British people living in the EU.
0:38:26 > 0:38:29But he criticised the PM for insisting
0:38:29 > 0:38:35Britain will leave the single market and the customs union, which he said
0:38:35 > 0:38:38meant it was now unlikely they would be a deal that would work
0:38:38 > 0:38:40in London's best interests.
0:38:40 > 0:38:42Mark Gield in financial services will post
0:38:42 > 0:38:44Brexit London be more successful than it is now?
0:38:44 > 0:38:45We will wait and see.
0:38:45 > 0:38:55I think we have to be bold come positive, optimistic, buccaneering,
0:38:55 > 0:38:57I don't deny that obviously there are some concerns
0:38:57 > 0:39:00being expressed in the City, and therefore think it is one
0:39:00 > 0:39:02of those key strategic sectors that I think this whole move
0:39:02 > 0:39:05towards alignment that we've seen over the last 48 hours,
0:39:05 > 0:39:08that has to have its part to play.
0:39:08 > 0:39:10I think we will look upon financial services,
0:39:10 > 0:39:14professional services, pharmaceuticals, biotech,
0:39:14 > 0:39:16these industries which, fragmentation is bad news of the EU
0:39:16 > 0:39:1927 as much as it is that the UK.
0:39:19 > 0:39:23And I think in the long term we will want to emanate in
0:39:23 > 0:39:25British law the new regulations and directives that come from Europe.
0:39:25 > 0:39:27In many ways suspect that means being
0:39:27 > 0:39:35run the table to discuss that.
0:39:35 > 0:39:38There will be those key sectors will be have alignment and will be
0:39:38 > 0:39:41free our own trade deals in a range of other areas.
0:39:41 > 0:39:44In effect we will not really have left the customs union.
0:39:44 > 0:39:46For certain sectors, it will have equivalents which will be like
0:39:46 > 0:39:49staying in the customs union but that will only apply in certain
0:39:49 > 0:39:52sectors of the economy.
0:39:52 > 0:39:57Bambos, freedom of movement will end when the UK
0:39:57 > 0:40:00leaves the single market and leaves the EU will that be good, in your
0:40:00 > 0:40:06mind, for London?
0:40:06 > 0:40:09I think it will be a worry because we'll need the best
0:40:09 > 0:40:13people we can to work in UK, London, because we're global city and we
0:40:13 > 0:40:16need to make sure we have the jobs, we attract people to work in the
0:40:16 > 0:40:18industries we have in London with the best jobs.
0:40:18 > 0:40:19Right.
0:40:19 > 0:40:21Keir Starmer has said that staying in the customs
0:40:21 > 0:40:23union should remain on the table.
0:40:23 > 0:40:26Do you think remaining in the single market and also remain on the table?
0:40:26 > 0:40:27I'm not so sure.
0:40:27 > 0:40:30I think the customs union is the one that is most
0:40:30 > 0:40:31important because that provides the detail
0:40:31 > 0:40:33for so many businesses that we want.
0:40:33 > 0:40:36So I think the customs union is far more important than the
0:40:36 > 0:40:37single market.
0:40:37 > 0:40:39Lets leave it there for the moment.
0:40:39 > 0:40:41Mark will be interested in this as minister for
0:40:41 > 0:40:44Asia, the Maher of London was on a trade mission to India
0:40:44 > 0:40:47and Pakistan this week and this is what he had to
0:40:47 > 0:40:48say.
0:40:48 > 0:40:51If Theresa May wants to make Brexit a success, as I'm sure she
0:40:51 > 0:40:54does, if she wants to ensure that businesses
0:40:54 > 0:40:56continue to flourish and thrive, we continue having access
0:40:56 > 0:40:59to talented people from around the world including India,
0:40:59 > 0:41:01it is in her interests to make sure she changes
0:41:01 > 0:41:02the rules and immigration.
0:41:02 > 0:41:04Sadiq Khan there.
0:41:04 > 0:41:06Mark, in order to actually mitigate the challenges
0:41:06 > 0:41:10of Brexit as Sadiq Khan sees them and to attract
0:41:10 > 0:41:12talent from India, do you think there has to be more
0:41:12 > 0:41:14generosity on visas?
0:41:14 > 0:41:16There is already quite a lot more generosity.
0:41:16 > 0:41:18I have to say it is a discussion I have with my
0:41:18 > 0:41:20counterparts, Indian and Pakistani ministers...
0:41:20 > 0:41:29But they want more.
0:41:29 > 0:41:32They do, it's obviously at people level, educational establishments
0:41:32 > 0:41:36but also highly skilled individuals and particularly in India you have
0:41:36 > 0:41:38an amazing technology sector, going back to the time of Nehru with
0:41:38 > 0:41:41technology related universities.
0:41:41 > 0:41:44So yes, I think there is something in there.
0:41:44 > 0:41:48One of the great things about watching Sadiq Khan, I think all of
0:41:48 > 0:41:54us as Londoners who are cosmopolitan are very proud of the idea of having
0:41:54 > 0:41:57someone who is a Muslim out in that part of the world, representing
0:41:57 > 0:41:59London, I think it is a great trip.
0:41:59 > 0:42:04The only thing I would say, one of the difficulties he has in many
0:42:04 > 0:42:06ways, it applies also to Boris Johnson and Ken Livingstone,
0:42:06 > 0:42:09his predecessors, the powers of the Mayor of London are limited.
0:42:09 > 0:42:10Outside of transportation and policing.
0:42:10 > 0:42:12One of the difficulties is, I'm sure he
0:42:12 > 0:42:15will try to make the case to say London needs a specific, special
0:42:15 > 0:42:16visa deal.
0:42:16 > 0:42:19The truth is that he hasn't got the power to make such a case.
0:42:19 > 0:42:22Do you accept that he is limited, he can cheerlead from the
0:42:22 > 0:42:26sidelines but he will be reacting to policy?
0:42:26 > 0:42:30I think he can make the case, he is the leader of a global
0:42:30 > 0:42:33city, and is uniquely placed to make sure we attract people over here.
0:42:33 > 0:42:36Obviously there needs to be changes in legislation for the visas, and
0:42:36 > 0:42:39that's back to the government, if they want a Britain that works
0:42:39 > 0:42:43for everybody, they need to make sure that is dealt with.
0:42:43 > 0:42:46Would you like to see further powers devolved to the mayor,
0:42:46 > 0:42:48with regards to things like immigration?
0:42:48 > 0:42:52Further powers would be a good thing, whether immigration
0:42:52 > 0:42:56would work I don't know but I think more devolution is good for London.
0:42:56 > 0:42:59Do you see the number of visas going up
0:42:59 > 0:43:01in order to do a trade deal with countries like India
0:43:01 > 0:43:03in post Brexit Britain?
0:43:03 > 0:43:06Well, one of the reasons people voted Brexit was concerns
0:43:06 > 0:43:10about immigration so it is ironic that now we are talking about more
0:43:10 > 0:43:19immigration to London but I do think more visas would be an issue.
0:43:19 > 0:43:21I have constituents that have problems who
0:43:21 > 0:43:26are here doing jobs, getting problems getting leave to remain so
0:43:26 > 0:43:29we already have a talent pool in the UK and they are struggling with
0:43:29 > 0:43:30visas at present.
0:43:30 > 0:43:32I would say that the issue about immigration, you're
0:43:32 > 0:43:34right, clearly a major factor in the referendum campaign,
0:43:34 > 0:43:36but I think it's the issues about having control
0:43:36 > 0:43:39of immigration, of immigration, the reality
0:43:39 > 0:43:41of course is a member of the European Union
0:43:41 > 0:43:42we had no control...
0:43:42 > 0:43:44The figures could go up as a result?
0:43:44 > 0:43:47If we are going to be the great success story which I very much hope
0:43:47 > 0:43:50we will be economically, if we are going to be buccaneering and
0:43:50 > 0:43:53positive and optimistic, yes, if British business makes the case
0:43:53 > 0:43:54and we are thriving, particularly in
0:43:54 > 0:43:57those global industries, then yes, we may see more immigration
0:43:57 > 0:43:58certainly coming from outside the European Union.
0:43:58 > 0:44:02That wasn't the message people had with Brexit.
0:44:02 > 0:44:04Although the messaging in London was very different.
0:44:04 > 0:44:07And will no doubt continue to be so.
0:44:07 > 0:44:10Now there is a row in Haringey over the council's
0:44:10 > 0:44:14flagship policy to redevelop two estates in partnership with a
0:44:14 > 0:44:17private company and build 6,400 homes.
0:44:17 > 0:44:20It has been the focus of criticism over fears that locals
0:44:20 > 0:44:25will be priced out of their communities.
0:44:25 > 0:44:31The Northumberland Park estate in North London, months away from
0:44:31 > 0:44:34Tottenham Hotspur's billion pound new stadium, is also one of the most
0:44:34 > 0:44:35deprived areas in Britain.
0:44:35 > 0:44:37Haringey Council has developed a plan to
0:44:37 > 0:44:46regenerate it and the neighbouring Broadwater farm estate.
0:44:46 > 0:44:52A 20 year project to build 6400 homes worth £4 billion.
0:44:52 > 0:44:5440% of the homes are slated to be affordable.
0:44:54 > 0:44:57The plan involves the Council partnering with a
0:44:57 > 0:45:01property company, Lendlease in a 50-50
0:45:01 > 0:45:03venture known as the HDV or Haringey development vehicle.
0:45:03 > 0:45:06This has sparked protests about privatisation and what critics
0:45:06 > 0:45:11have called the social cleansing of the neighbourhood.
0:45:11 > 0:45:13The Labour-run council say cuts to the housing
0:45:13 > 0:45:15budget leave them with no choice but to enter
0:45:15 > 0:45:17into such an arrangement.
0:45:17 > 0:45:19There are now doubts about its future though
0:45:19 > 0:45:20after reselection process has
0:45:20 > 0:45:25seen at least 17 Labour councillors either withdraw from May's council
0:45:25 > 0:45:26elections or find themselves deselected.
0:45:26 > 0:45:29Earlier this year a resident of Northumberland Park told
0:45:29 > 0:45:37Sunday politics London about her fears.
0:45:37 > 0:45:38People have brought their families up here.
0:45:38 > 0:45:39People have got memories.
0:45:39 > 0:45:41It is not just a house.
0:45:41 > 0:45:44And that's not the concern of the council, it is pure profit.
0:45:44 > 0:45:46And nothing they say is going to make me
0:45:46 > 0:45:47think any different about that.
0:45:47 > 0:45:52The scheme is currently subject to judicial review.
0:45:52 > 0:45:54I'm joined now by Councillor Alan Strickland, Haringey's cabinet
0:45:54 > 0:46:02member for housing until May, when he will be stepping down.
0:46:02 > 0:46:03And by the Guardian's chief economics
0:46:03 > 0:46:05commentator, who grew up near the Northumberland Park estate.
0:46:05 > 0:46:07Welcome to both of you.
0:46:07 > 0:46:09First of all, Alan, you heard in that film, the lady
0:46:09 > 0:46:11saying it is just about profit.
0:46:11 > 0:46:12Is that right?
0:46:12 > 0:46:13Absolutely not.
0:46:13 > 0:46:20This is fundamentally about tackling our
0:46:20 > 0:46:2610,000 long waiting list, 3,000 people in temporary accommodation
0:46:26 > 0:46:28and unacceptable levels of poverty and unemployment in the
0:46:28 > 0:46:29Northumberland Park estate.
0:46:29 > 0:46:32That's why we want to build new homes, why
0:46:32 > 0:46:38existing tenants are guaranteed replacement homes with the same rent
0:46:38 > 0:46:41and why there will be new schools, new health centre and Major jobs
0:46:41 > 0:46:42programmes.
0:46:42 > 0:46:43That's what it's about.
0:46:43 > 0:46:44What's your problem?
0:46:44 > 0:46:46There's no social housing target for any of the
0:46:46 > 0:46:48estates in the Haringey Development Vehicle.
0:46:48 > 0:46:49There's been precious little consultation.
0:46:49 > 0:46:50What consultation there has been on Haringey Council's
0:46:50 > 0:46:57own consultancy reports has been dire, so that three
0:46:57 > 0:46:59quarters of Sam's neighbours on the Northumberland Park estate don't
0:46:59 > 0:47:01even know there's going to be a demolition.
0:47:01 > 0:47:03Meanwhile, the council's putting out papers which has got
0:47:03 > 0:47:05maps, colour-coded, which shows streets, houses,
0:47:05 > 0:47:06flats which will be knocked
0:47:06 > 0:47:07down.
0:47:07 > 0:47:10We don't know what will replace them.
0:47:10 > 0:47:13We have just been given a very loose promise about 40%
0:47:13 > 0:47:14affordable.
0:47:14 > 0:47:16Which everybody knows in London, doesn't mean affordable at
0:47:16 > 0:47:19all.
0:47:19 > 0:47:21So you don't believe Alan when he says all
0:47:21 > 0:47:22council tenants whose
0:47:22 > 0:47:25existing homes are demolished, are guaranteed to be rehoused on the
0:47:25 > 0:47:25same terms?
0:47:25 > 0:47:27Well, I have read...
0:47:27 > 0:47:30Actually, I should thank Alan because he spoilt a number of
0:47:30 > 0:47:33weekends for me because I had to go through the paperwork
0:47:33 > 0:47:35put out by Haringey Council.
0:47:35 > 0:47:36Someone has to!
0:47:36 > 0:47:38And read the difference between what the
0:47:38 > 0:47:43rhetoric is and what they have actually agreed to.
0:47:43 > 0:47:45The actual plan is shot through with more get out
0:47:45 > 0:47:47clauses that would keep David Blaine happy.
0:47:47 > 0:47:48So it doesn't include housing association tenants.
0:47:48 > 0:47:50It doesn't include people who already owned
0:47:50 > 0:47:51their own places.
0:47:51 > 0:47:52So it doesn't include leaseholders.
0:47:52 > 0:47:54And it doesn't include people like shopkeepers.
0:47:54 > 0:47:56Let's put that to Alan, is that true?
0:47:56 > 0:47:57No.
0:47:57 > 0:48:00Are there no guarantees for those groups of people, and if
0:48:00 > 0:48:02there are, why aren't they in your plan?
0:48:02 > 0:48:04There are clear guarantees set out in our policy.
0:48:04 > 0:48:06I know Aditya has raised the leaseholder issue before,
0:48:06 > 0:48:07so I checked the policy this morning.
0:48:07 > 0:48:09It's mentioned on page two.
0:48:09 > 0:48:11There are clear guarantees for tenants, for leaseholders.
0:48:11 > 0:48:13Sorry, Alan, section 5.44, I can quote you
0:48:13 > 0:48:17the paragraph, I know it so well by now.
0:48:17 > 0:48:19Section 5.44 of your members' agreement that you voted through
0:48:19 > 0:48:21this summer does not give those guarantees.
0:48:21 > 0:48:23It is shot through with get out clauses.
0:48:23 > 0:48:25It also makes it clear that all the promises you make
0:48:25 > 0:48:29do not apply to estates beyond Northumberland Park and a couple of
0:48:29 > 0:48:31the others in the first tranche.
0:48:31 > 0:48:32People on Broadwater Farm Estate are not subject
0:48:32 > 0:48:34to the same promises.
0:48:34 > 0:48:39I think what I am talking about is the
0:48:39 > 0:48:46very clear policy the Cabinet adopted that gives clear
0:48:46 > 0:48:48guarantees for estates that are to be regenerated.
0:48:48 > 0:48:49That is there.
0:48:49 > 0:48:51That is there in black and white.
0:48:51 > 0:48:55We have been very, very clear that that
0:48:55 > 0:48:57trumps any other document and lawyers have made
0:48:57 > 0:48:58that very clear as well.
0:48:58 > 0:49:01Can Lendlease be trusted to regenerate the estate in the way
0:49:01 > 0:49:03that you are certainly saying today?
0:49:03 > 0:49:06Most councils in London have done on big regeneration schemes is sell
0:49:06 > 0:49:08land 100% to a developer and then you only have control through the
0:49:08 > 0:49:10planning committee.
0:49:10 > 0:49:12What we are proposing is a 50-50 partnership.
0:49:12 > 0:49:14Half the people round the table on that board
0:49:14 > 0:49:15will be people from the council.
0:49:15 > 0:49:17So we can't be forced to do anything.
0:49:17 > 0:49:20We have a lot of control into the future and it puts the
0:49:20 > 0:49:23council in the driving seat rather than playing second fiddle.
0:49:23 > 0:49:26It's a private fiddle which will not be run by the Council, the council
0:49:26 > 0:49:28do not have majority control, they don't have the final
0:49:28 > 0:49:30control over this.
0:49:30 > 0:49:32And the track record isn't great, is it,
0:49:32 > 0:49:34because if you look at Lendlease, they were given the rights to
0:49:34 > 0:49:37develop an estate in Southwark for example and there were only 82
0:49:37 > 0:49:39social houses provided out of 1,200 that were demolished.
0:49:39 > 0:49:41How can you promise that won't happen again
0:49:41 > 0:49:42here?
0:49:42 > 0:49:45We made it clear to everybody who bid for this that we absolutely
0:49:45 > 0:49:47expect to see large amounts of affordable
0:49:47 > 0:49:50housing, new clinics, new
0:49:50 > 0:49:56schools and other things.
0:49:56 > 0:49:58And Lendlease have got a good track record of working
0:49:58 > 0:50:01with the public sector,
0:50:01 > 0:50:04and in fact they have built several things for the BBC.
0:50:04 > 0:50:05Where is the target for social housing?
0:50:05 > 0:50:07There is no target for social housing.
0:50:07 > 0:50:08That's a target for affordable housing.
0:50:08 > 0:50:10It's very clear, all tenants who live on
0:50:10 > 0:50:13the estate at the moment are guaranteed replacement homes...
0:50:13 > 0:50:16The problem for this...
0:50:16 > 0:50:19Don't talk over each other, go on.
0:50:19 > 0:50:20The way that Alan and his colleagues have
0:50:20 > 0:50:22approached this is shot through with contempt.
0:50:22 > 0:50:24Contempt for their colleagues who have written two
0:50:24 > 0:50:27reports, fraud scrutiny committee, contempt for the MPs, both of them
0:50:27 > 0:50:29in the area have written letters calling for an immediate halt.
0:50:29 > 0:50:31Contempt for people living on the estate
0:50:31 > 0:50:32such as Sam Leggett who
0:50:32 > 0:50:35didn't even know this was happening until it was too late.
0:50:35 > 0:50:37Is not your role to always criticise policies?
0:50:37 > 0:50:39Isn't this a genuine attempt by the council to actually meet,
0:50:39 > 0:50:42let me finish the question, to actually
0:50:42 > 0:50:47meet the needs of the housing crisis in London by doing something?
0:50:47 > 0:50:53I'm from the same borough as Bambos
0:50:53 > 0:50:56he's my MP, and I've written pieces in support of what
0:50:56 > 0:50:59Enfield Council has been doing in housing which is trying to build
0:50:59 > 0:51:01housing, and which is commissioned by the council.
0:51:01 > 0:51:02You are making it more difficult with these
0:51:02 > 0:51:04criticisms.
0:51:04 > 0:51:06No, because I favour social housing which is the thing
0:51:06 > 0:51:08that we have most dire need for in London.
0:51:08 > 0:51:11Bambos, who is right here?
0:51:11 > 0:51:15In Enfield we have got Housing Gateway
0:51:15 > 0:51:17which is acquiring properties to house council tenants.
0:51:17 > 0:51:19And we plan to do that, why, because it takes
0:51:19 > 0:51:21pressure off the huge costs we face of temporary accommodation.
0:51:21 > 0:51:24Right, but you are actually using money the
0:51:24 > 0:51:25council is raising.
0:51:25 > 0:51:26The council is borrowing the money to buy
0:51:26 > 0:51:28properties.
0:51:28 > 0:51:35Is that not the problem, that actually councils need to have
0:51:35 > 0:51:37of money, so that they
0:51:37 > 0:51:40can invest in the sorts of housing schemes that are needed in places
0:51:40 > 0:51:42like Haringey without running into these sorts of problems?
0:51:42 > 0:51:44I think we know why for historical reasons
0:51:44 > 0:51:46there's been a reluctance from central government, not just from
0:51:46 > 0:51:48Conservative Central government...
0:51:48 > 0:51:49Should that change?
0:51:49 > 0:51:52I feel sorry for the situation Alan is in, he is
0:51:52 > 0:51:57almost being punished for trying to deal with the housing crisis.
0:51:57 > 0:51:59I have been an MP for 16 years.
0:51:59 > 0:52:04I was a councillor in Kensington and Chelsea
0:52:04 > 0:52:07in London so effectively for 25 years I've been involved in London
0:52:07 > 0:52:08politics as an elected politician.
0:52:08 > 0:52:10And there's always been a housing crisis.
0:52:10 > 0:52:11And it's got a lot worse.
0:52:11 > 0:52:13I think we need imaginative solutions,
0:52:13 > 0:52:16and rather than being held back by an ideology that says,
0:52:16 > 0:52:19we must have this...
0:52:19 > 0:52:21We mustn't talk over the people we're meant to be looking after,
0:52:21 > 0:52:23isn't that right?
0:52:23 > 0:52:25Can I come to a final question.
0:52:25 > 0:52:29The regeneration will drive up prices.
0:52:29 > 0:52:31For those who already own their own leases or
0:52:31 > 0:52:32pay commercial rents.
0:52:32 > 0:52:34And in that sense you will end up driving them
0:52:34 > 0:52:36out those neighbourhoods.
0:52:36 > 0:52:38As I said, if you live on one of those estates
0:52:38 > 0:52:41at the moment, you are guaranteed replacement home on the same terms.
0:52:41 > 0:52:44We are working hard, we've got a full-time team of staff
0:52:44 > 0:52:45out every day talking to tenants on these
0:52:45 > 0:52:47estates.
0:52:47 > 0:52:50It is not the case that we're not listening and our desire
0:52:50 > 0:52:53to do something is driven by people saying we need more homes, more
0:52:53 > 0:52:56jobs, please sort out the local school, please get us more services,
0:52:56 > 0:52:58we are being driven by what residents are telling us.
0:52:58 > 0:53:01Will you be reassured at all?
0:53:01 > 0:53:11I will be reassured when I see an actual
0:53:12 > 0:53:15document which you haven't got, I think, which says actually we have
0:53:15 > 0:53:18got a social housing target which is satisfactory and we will have a
0:53:18 > 0:53:21genuine right to return not a rhetorical right to return
0:53:21 > 0:53:23which is undercut by the pieces of paper they
0:53:23 > 0:53:24sign off.
0:53:24 > 0:53:25Thank you to both of you.
0:53:25 > 0:53:28It's the time of year when most children are looking forward to
0:53:28 > 0:53:29being spoilt at Christmas.
0:53:29 > 0:53:31But a significant number of children in
0:53:31 > 0:53:32London are doing without, and child poverty
0:53:32 > 0:53:34rates in the capital are
0:53:34 > 0:53:36projected to rise the first time in a decade.
0:53:36 > 0:53:37This special report.
0:53:37 > 0:53:39This is the weekly drop in session of
0:53:39 > 0:53:41Little Village, which distributes children's clothes and equipment
0:53:41 > 0:53:47donated by local families to parents who can't afford them.
0:53:47 > 0:53:49There's a festive feeling at the charity's
0:53:49 > 0:53:52Christmas party but the majority of parents referred here are raising
0:53:52 > 0:53:53children on little or no income.
0:53:53 > 0:53:55Kefara is one of those parents.
0:53:55 > 0:53:58It is a struggle when you have three kids and paying
0:53:58 > 0:54:07the bills and getting food and so on and other stuff,
0:54:11 > 0:54:15so when it comes down to clothes or items they need it's kind of hard
0:54:15 > 0:54:17to find the money to stretch for that extra.
0:54:17 > 0:54:20Child poverty in London has been decreasing for about a decade.
0:54:20 > 0:54:22Currently 37% of children in London, that's 700,000, are deemed
0:54:22 > 0:54:31to be living in poverty, meaning they miss out on what most
0:54:31 > 0:54:33take for granted such as warm clothes or decent food.
0:54:33 > 0:54:36But a new study has projected that figure will rise to 42%
0:54:36 > 0:54:37or 900,000 children by 2021.
0:54:37 > 0:54:40Around 70% of children in poverty in London are in a working family.
0:54:40 > 0:54:42This charity operates in three boroughs.
0:54:42 > 0:54:43Camden, Southwark and Wandsworth.
0:54:43 > 0:54:50And it has seen a growing need for its services.
0:54:50 > 0:54:54It's very striking, the level of need we are seeing,
0:54:54 > 0:55:01given that we live in London, a wealthy city.
0:55:01 > 0:55:04We have mums going back to properties which are rat-infested,
0:55:04 > 0:55:06we have families coming in saying they can't afford nappies and 40%
0:55:06 > 0:55:09of the people we see don't have a safe place
0:55:09 > 0:55:11for their babies to sleep.
0:55:11 > 0:55:13Formerly there was cross-party support to end child
0:55:13 > 0:55:14poverty by 2020.
0:55:14 > 0:55:17That target was dropped last year when the government introduced
0:55:17 > 0:55:19new ways to measure child poverty, including levels of family
0:55:19 > 0:55:26breakdown, debt and addiction.
0:55:26 > 0:55:31But the Child Poverty Action Group says there needs to be
0:55:31 > 0:55:32a credible focus on tackling the issue.
0:55:32 > 0:55:35We have no social policy at the moment about how
0:55:35 > 0:55:37to tackle child poverty, there was due to be a government
0:55:37 > 0:55:39paper on life chances but that never came,
0:55:39 > 0:55:42that was going to be a Green paper on social justice
0:55:42 > 0:55:43and that never came either.
0:55:43 > 0:55:46The effect of that vacuum in policy is that we see no effective remedies
0:55:46 > 0:55:48to the child poverty rises we face.
0:55:48 > 0:55:56We need to address low pay and high housing costs and most will tackle
0:55:56 > 0:55:59- most of all we need to tackle the benefit freezes and the cuts
0:55:59 > 0:56:00to benefit tax credits
0:56:00 > 0:56:02and Universal Credit that need to be remedied.
0:56:02 > 0:56:04However the Centre for Social Justice argues that welfare
0:56:04 > 0:56:07reforms will help tackle the causes of child poverty.
0:56:07 > 0:56:09You've got to recognise some of the things the government has done
0:56:09 > 0:56:11that has been successful, they've reduced the numbers
0:56:11 > 0:56:14of workless households to record lows and we know that having someone
0:56:14 > 0:56:18in work in a family is the best thing for helping a child, to ensure
0:56:18 > 0:56:20the child is not in poverty.
0:56:20 > 0:56:23But those working at Little Village say that has not been the experience
0:56:23 > 0:56:30for parents they've helped.
0:56:30 > 0:56:33We see many families here living on low incomes,
0:56:33 > 0:56:35struggling to pay their bills,
0:56:35 > 0:56:37struggling to close their children and also in work.
0:56:37 > 0:56:39The truth is that having a job does not guarantee that
0:56:39 > 0:56:41you will not live in poverty.
0:56:41 > 0:56:44The government claims poverty is no higher than it was in 2010 and that
0:56:44 > 0:56:47nearly three-quarters of children from workless families moved out
0:56:47 > 0:56:54of poverty when their parents entered into full-time work.
0:56:54 > 0:56:58This may be little comfort perhaps for families can't afford to provide
0:56:58 > 0:57:07the essentials for their children.
0:57:07 > 0:57:10Mark Field, how shaming is it that by the government's
0:57:10 > 0:57:12own definition 700,000 children are living in London in poverty?
0:57:12 > 0:57:14I would not use the word shaming.
0:57:14 > 0:57:17All of us know as MPs that we've got poverty in London.
0:57:17 > 0:57:20That's a very large number of children by your own
0:57:20 > 0:57:26definition living in poverty.
0:57:26 > 0:57:29The concern is that those who are in work, we know that London
0:57:29 > 0:57:32is an incredibly expensive place to live.
0:57:32 > 0:57:35The one thing I would say, a lot of these statistics on poverty
0:57:35 > 0:57:37tend to be relative, it was a good point made,
0:57:37 > 0:57:43let's get this Green paper, let's get some legislation in place,
0:57:43 > 0:57:45that has gone on hold.
0:57:45 > 0:57:47I wouldn't deny that's been a positive way forward.
0:57:47 > 0:57:49But child poverty is expected to rise in London...
0:57:49 > 0:57:51This has not been dealt with...
0:57:51 > 0:57:53We need also to recognise that educational attainment has got
0:57:53 > 0:57:56higher, in many ways London is a city with great opportunity,
0:57:56 > 0:58:01people may be born into poverty and make their way in life and that
0:58:01 > 0:58:05sense of social mobility which has stalled in much of the country,
0:58:05 > 0:58:06in London still is a positive thing.
0:58:06 > 0:58:12That is not to justify what is happening, there are some
0:58:12 > 0:58:15real issues that need to be dealt with but we still have that sense
0:58:15 > 0:58:18of mobility and people are able to get on in life
0:58:18 > 0:58:22not least because of educational attainment.
0:58:22 > 0:58:24What would Labour do to tackle this issue?
0:58:24 > 0:58:27I think it's shocking that you have 37% and rising children in poverty
0:58:27 > 0:58:32in one of the wealthiest capitals in the world.
0:58:32 > 0:58:35Obviously it is Mark's government's fault that this has happened,
0:58:35 > 0:58:38it is through the policies they've introduced, things like the benefit
0:58:38 > 0:58:41cap and the attack on child tax credits and the medieval sort
0:58:41 > 0:58:45of rape clause...
0:58:45 > 0:58:47Would Labour reverse all of those cuts?
0:58:47 > 0:58:48If you read our manifesto...
0:58:48 > 0:58:49Which I have.
0:58:49 > 0:58:51We will sort out Universal Credit...
0:58:51 > 0:58:56You say you will sort out Universal Credit,
0:58:56 > 0:58:58you still agree with that in principle.
0:58:58 > 0:59:01I think it's always better to have people working but the way
0:59:01 > 0:59:05the government has gone about it, where it has been trialled,
0:59:05 > 0:59:09you've had people getting into debts and getting into rent arrears
0:59:09 > 0:59:16which is causing problems, but the fact is that more children,
0:59:16 > 0:59:2170% of the children are children of working families.
0:59:21 > 0:59:23Let me put that point to Mark.
0:59:23 > 0:59:25That is the travesty because your government has gone
0:59:25 > 0:59:27on and on about making work pay.
0:59:27 > 0:59:29It doesn't pay in London because 70% of the children we've
0:59:29 > 0:59:31talked about in poverty are from a working family.
0:59:31 > 0:59:35Once people are in work and they are getting
0:59:35 > 0:59:41better paid, better jobs that the CSJ research suggests...
0:59:41 > 0:59:43But not enough to pay for the high cost of housing.
0:59:43 > 0:59:46You start at that point, but I think once households are in work...
0:59:46 > 0:59:56The housing costs, I accept the housing costs are extreme.
1:00:01 > 1:00:04It doesn't pay in London because 70% of the children we've
1:00:04 > 1:00:06talked about in poverty are from a working family.
1:00:06 > 1:00:08Once people are in work and they are getting
1:00:08 > 1:00:10better paid, better jobs that the CSJ research suggests...
1:00:10 > 1:00:13But not enough to pay for the high cost of housing.
1:00:13 > 1:00:16You start at that point, but I think once households are in work...
1:00:16 > 1:00:18The housing costs, I accept the housing costs are extreme.
1:00:18 > 1:00:21But also, pay is flat-lining so the pay isn't going up.
1:00:21 > 1:00:23But also there has been underinvestment over many,
1:00:23 > 1:00:25many years and I think that's a problem.
1:00:25 > 1:00:28Also, in Mark's constituency, I spoke to a teenager who told me
1:00:28 > 1:00:30that children have got rickets in schools in Mark's constituency.
1:00:30 > 1:00:32That is one of the wealthiest in London.
1:00:32 > 1:00:35Let me come back to what Labour would do, because you say
1:00:35 > 1:00:36you would sort out Universal Credit.
1:00:36 > 1:00:39And you said that you would reverse some of the welfare cuts,
1:00:39 > 1:00:42but Labour's manifesto is quite clear that you would only reverse
1:00:42 > 1:00:45a quarter, or a third, sorry, a third of the cuts that have been
1:00:45 > 1:00:51proposed by the government.
1:00:51 > 1:00:54There is money in the budget, for instance, the personal tax
1:00:54 > 1:00:57credit is 1.3 billion and that could wipe out the two child tax
1:00:57 > 1:00:59credit limit that has been introduced by the government.
1:00:59 > 1:01:01We will have to leave it there.
1:01:01 > 1:01:03My thanks to both of you and now, back to Sarah.
1:01:03 > 1:01:05Welcome back, I have got my political insiders here who will
1:01:05 > 1:01:08give us a peek behind the curtains of what has been going on with the
1:01:08 > 1:01:11big stories of the week. One of the interesting thing is, after Theresa
1:01:11 > 1:01:16May had done this deal in Brussels, Michael Gove wrote a piece in the
1:01:16 > 1:01:19paper yesterday which said if the British people dislike the
1:01:19 > 1:01:23arrangements we negotiate, they will have the ability to change it, what
1:01:23 > 1:01:30did he mean by that?I think he had a few things going on. First of all
1:01:30 > 1:01:34he was effectively saying that the wording in this communique doesn't
1:01:34 > 1:01:38resolve the issue of how much regulatory alignment there should be
1:01:38 > 1:01:43between the UK and the EU, going on into the future. That is helpful
1:01:43 > 1:01:47because it means he can be loyal and support the Prime Minister and
1:01:47 > 1:01:51endorsed what she has done so far without appearing to endorse some
1:01:51 > 1:01:56sort of soft Brexit and it gives him wriggle room to endorse further
1:01:56 > 1:02:00concessions, if they are just parking these issues, rather than
1:02:00 > 1:02:06resolving them in stone. It gives them the ability to exercise
1:02:06 > 1:02:09flexibility in the future. The wisdom within the party is, Theresa
1:02:09 > 1:02:16May will probably step down after we have left in 2019 and after that we
1:02:16 > 1:02:21will look for somebody who is in talks fight with having taken one
1:02:21 > 1:02:27side or the other which would rule out the Brexiteer is like Michael
1:02:27 > 1:02:33Gove. But if we are just parking these issues, and there will be
1:02:33 > 1:02:36chants to debate them at the next general election, it means somebody
1:02:36 > 1:02:44like Michael Gove could be a viable candidate.It was interesting to
1:02:44 > 1:02:48watch Michael Gove on Friday morning, so supportive of the Prime
1:02:48 > 1:02:53Minister as he did a round of media interviews.Is this part of a bigger
1:02:53 > 1:02:59plan? Sometimes he is so supportive, I think he is taking the make. He
1:02:59 > 1:03:05said this is the best speech he has ever seen and I thought he had laid
1:03:05 > 1:03:09it on a bit thick. But there is a point, I think he thinks he might
1:03:09 > 1:03:14run for the Tory leadership. He has made a lot of jokes with how badly
1:03:14 > 1:03:17it went last time and I'm not convinced it will go any better next
1:03:17 > 1:03:23time.In the middle of the week, people were getting ready for a
1:03:23 > 1:03:28leadership challenge?Yes, I was getting unsolicited calls, which is
1:03:28 > 1:03:33a good sign there is something going on. There were five MPs who have
1:03:33 > 1:03:37previously said they would not consider getting rid of Theresa May,
1:03:37 > 1:03:42who were putting in their letters for a vote of no-confidence. That
1:03:42 > 1:03:47has gone away but Theresa May only has so many lives. The poor way the
1:03:47 > 1:03:52business with the DUP was handled has caused her a bit of damage.
1:03:52 > 1:03:58There is a lot of murmuring this weekend, where Brexiteer is, like
1:03:58 > 1:04:03Michael Gove have said this doesn't settle anything. Lots of people
1:04:03 > 1:04:06going around saying nothing is sorted until everything is sorted.
1:04:06 > 1:04:11It is a way of saying, nothing to see here, we haven't capitulated
1:04:11 > 1:04:16yet. But they are looking at the wording of the document and they are
1:04:16 > 1:04:19concerned.It will be harder for the Prime Minister to smooth over these
1:04:19 > 1:04:23cracks in the cabinet sit down and have a proper discussion about the
1:04:23 > 1:04:28end stage, the type of future trading relationship, will they do
1:04:28 > 1:04:35that next week?The crunch meeting will, the week after. The Brexit War
1:04:35 > 1:04:40Cabinet. It now has Michael Gove on it and Gavin Williamson, the new
1:04:40 > 1:04:45Defence Secretary. I am told Gavin Williamson is supporting Michael
1:04:45 > 1:04:49Gove, Boris Johnson and David Davis in saying we need to have the
1:04:49 > 1:04:54freedom to diverged. The significance of that, there was a
1:04:54 > 1:04:59majority of 4-3 in favour of the diverges, rather than the liners.
1:04:59 > 1:05:05With Theresa May drifting above them. Looks like are going in that
1:05:05 > 1:05:09direction.Toby, one of the things the Prime Minister has been able to
1:05:09 > 1:05:14do, is stand above those arguments, play the role of having a casting
1:05:14 > 1:05:21vote. If she does cast her vote one side or the other, does that make
1:05:21 > 1:05:25her Premiership more difficult?It would make her Premiership more
1:05:25 > 1:05:28difficult and that is why she has had to postpone doing that until
1:05:28 > 1:05:33now. But that doesn't mean she would definitely not survive if she comes
1:05:33 > 1:05:38down on one side or the other. Tim and I had a disagreement on what
1:05:38 > 1:05:44Gavin Williamson was up to. I think it is partly because it sure is up
1:05:44 > 1:05:47Theresa May's position if the Brexiteer thought they would be in a
1:05:47 > 1:05:53minority and in danger of being outflanked by Hammond and Amber Rudd
1:05:53 > 1:05:57in the committee. They might be more inclined to rebel and whip up
1:05:57 > 1:06:01discontent. If they think they will have a majority, they will keep
1:06:01 > 1:06:06their powder dry which means Theresa May gets to live another day. I
1:06:06 > 1:06:10thought it was Gavin Williamson being loyal to the Prime Minister,
1:06:10 > 1:06:16keep the Brexiteers onside. But Tim's view is, he is ambitious for
1:06:16 > 1:06:21the leadership himself and if he positions himself as the Brexiteer
1:06:21 > 1:06:25candidate, he will have more hope. It doesn't look quite so good next
1:06:25 > 1:06:31to the remaining candidates.Gavin Williamson has been at the centre of
1:06:31 > 1:06:34another story, the fight he has been having with Philip Hammond, the
1:06:34 > 1:06:39Chancellor.It is one of those things were personal beef has been
1:06:39 > 1:06:45brought into this. There does seem to be a personal animosity between
1:06:45 > 1:06:50them. Gavin Williamson will have to go on a charm offensive if he wants
1:06:50 > 1:06:56to have a go at the leadership. When he was moved from Chief Whip to
1:06:56 > 1:07:01Defence Secretary, some of the briefings coming out where
1:07:01 > 1:07:06extraordinary, people'spersonal dislike about in. Chief Whip does
1:07:06 > 1:07:11earn you some enemies, but he does have some ground to make up.He is
1:07:11 > 1:07:15one of the signatories with the DUP so if there is a change of
1:07:15 > 1:07:18government before the agreement expires, to keep the government
1:07:18 > 1:07:24alive, you would have to be in the cabinet.
1:07:24 > 1:07:27So with lots of glowing headlines in the papers over the weekend
1:07:27 > 1:07:28and pictures of a beaming Theresa May everywhere,
1:07:28 > 1:07:31is it time for the Brexit doom-mongers to start feeling
1:07:31 > 1:07:32a bit more optimistic?
1:07:32 > 1:07:35We sent Emma Vardy to Basingstoke, which pretty much split down
1:07:35 > 1:07:37the same lines as the rest of the country in terms
1:07:37 > 1:07:40of the referendum vote, to find our how hopeful people
1:07:40 > 1:07:41are feeling about the deal.
1:07:41 > 1:07:45There's just over two weeks until Christmas and Theresa May's
1:07:45 > 1:07:49gift to you this year was getting us onto the next stage of talks.
1:07:49 > 1:07:51Will we end up with a good agreement for Britain?
1:07:51 > 1:07:54We are here to ask the people of Basingstoke, when it comes
1:07:54 > 1:08:05to the final Brexit deal, are you an optimist or a pessimist.
1:08:05 > 1:08:07We are coming out of the club.
1:08:07 > 1:08:10of being in the club, we are coming
1:08:10 > 1:08:12out and we are going to lose out.
1:08:12 > 1:08:13We are a great nation.
1:08:13 > 1:08:16We are going to do it.
1:08:16 > 1:08:20I just think we haven't got a great idea of what it looks like.
1:08:20 > 1:08:23We are British, we get on with things.
1:08:23 > 1:08:25We've gone through a war.
1:08:25 > 1:08:26Not you, but I have, you know.
1:08:26 > 1:08:30It is wonderful.
1:08:30 > 1:08:33We are a lovely country, I love it and I'm very
1:08:33 > 1:08:34patriotically so there you are.
1:08:34 > 1:08:36Merry Christmas to you.
1:08:36 > 1:08:44Happy Christmas.
1:08:44 > 1:08:47Not enough information was given to us, the money or anything.
1:08:47 > 1:08:49And being ruled by Brussels, didn't like that.
1:08:49 > 1:08:52And we were just ill informed.
1:08:52 > 1:08:54I think it's going to happen, I think Theresa May
1:08:54 > 1:09:01is doing a very good job.
1:09:01 > 1:09:03I'm counting on it being a disaster, personally.
1:09:03 > 1:09:09Maybe the house prices will come down.
1:09:09 > 1:09:11It's happening, don't want a bad deal, just
1:09:11 > 1:09:13got to get on with it, I suppose.
1:09:13 > 1:09:16Everything they told us during the campaign seems to have
1:09:16 > 1:09:18gone out the window and they seem to be doing something
1:09:18 > 1:09:19completely different now.
1:09:19 > 1:09:21She's been hanging on, hanging on and now we
1:09:21 > 1:09:22are paying £44 billion.
1:09:22 > 1:09:23Come on!
1:09:23 > 1:09:24Optimistic.
1:09:24 > 1:09:26Optimistic, why is that, sir?
1:09:26 > 1:09:31All those bad forecasts they made when the vote was taken,
1:09:31 > 1:09:33the country is going to fall apart, everyone will be poorer.
1:09:33 > 1:09:37None of it has happened, has it?
1:09:37 > 1:09:40You can't vote with these, but this lot should know a thing
1:09:40 > 1:09:43or two about doing a deal, what do you reckon?
1:09:43 > 1:09:45Are we going to end up with a good deal?
1:09:45 > 1:09:49Yes, I think so.
1:09:49 > 1:09:50Why shouldn't we?
1:09:50 > 1:09:52They want our trade, we want their trade.
1:09:52 > 1:09:53Have a ball.
1:09:53 > 1:09:56Going to be wobbly, but we've gone through worse.
1:09:56 > 1:09:59No, we haven't got a good deal, not with what she did yesterday.
1:09:59 > 1:10:01Basically, we've decided to give away everything in the negotiations.
1:10:01 > 1:10:02Should we have been tougher?
1:10:02 > 1:10:04Yes.
1:10:04 > 1:10:06They need trade with us, we need trade with them,
1:10:06 > 1:10:14so a deal will be made.
1:10:14 > 1:10:15So you are pretty hopeful then?
1:10:15 > 1:10:17Yes.
1:10:17 > 1:10:18It's going to work out?
1:10:18 > 1:10:19Yes.
1:10:19 > 1:10:21Plenty of Christmas cheer here, but were the people of Basingstoke
1:10:21 > 1:10:23hopeful of getting a good deal?
1:10:23 > 1:10:28It's close, but most were optimistic that we will.
1:10:28 > 1:10:34Some optimistic voters there, our voters following this and trying to
1:10:34 > 1:10:38work out whether what they wanted during the referendum is being
1:10:38 > 1:10:42delivered?Some are following it more closely than others. The money
1:10:42 > 1:10:48cuts through, people get that, it was the essential focus of the
1:10:48 > 1:10:53referendum campaign. But let's spare the public as best we can, this
1:10:53 > 1:10:56discussion of every intricacy. Those who cover it professionally have
1:10:56 > 1:11:02been close to throwing ourselves off buildings in the last year. To some
1:11:02 > 1:11:08degree, they should leave us to do the heavy lifting. It is interesting
1:11:08 > 1:11:12that they are optimistic. I was optimistic there would be a deal,
1:11:12 > 1:11:18but not necessarily it would be that great. What has happened in the last
1:11:18 > 1:11:22six months, put optimism and pessimism aside, there is a sense of
1:11:22 > 1:11:26realism about what is going on. We have seen what it's like the 18 with
1:11:26 > 1:11:31Brussels. We have talked about the cabinet negotiating with themselves,
1:11:31 > 1:11:36but what will happen with the other 27 countries? They will have their
1:11:36 > 1:11:39own negotiations early in the New Year and they will set the
1:11:39 > 1:11:42parameters of what they want and what they want Michel Barnier to
1:11:42 > 1:11:49negotiate. That will be closer to what we will be getting.We focused
1:11:49 > 1:11:54a great deal on the split within the Cabinet and the Prime Minister tried
1:11:54 > 1:12:01to keep the Brexiteers and the Remainers onside.They don't think
1:12:01 > 1:12:07there will be a good deal. I am pessimistic for the simple reason,
1:12:07 > 1:12:12if there was one pledge that mood voting more than others, would be be
1:12:12 > 1:12:17extra 350 million for the NHS and public services. I will not happen,
1:12:17 > 1:12:21we have a massive productivity problem. Social care is still a
1:12:21 > 1:12:25looming crisis, we cannot afford to care for elderly people in the way
1:12:25 > 1:12:29we would like to. None of that is being sold by Brexit. It's not going
1:12:29 > 1:12:36to the Commons at the moment. We're not talking about schools, hospitals
1:12:36 > 1:12:40and local councils.Are you optimistic or pessimistic? Even if
1:12:40 > 1:12:44we are committed to pay up to 40 billion over the next 20 years it is
1:12:44 > 1:12:49less than 10 billion a year in net contributions for the next 20 years.
1:12:49 > 1:12:53I am optimistic deal will be done and I am optimistic it will be a
1:12:53 > 1:12:59good deal. Let's not forget as James Brokenshire pointed out, in the
1:12:59 > 1:13:02communique on Friday morning, it said the EU accepted the UK would no
1:13:02 > 1:13:06longer be in the single market or the customs union, yet they have
1:13:06 > 1:13:10gone on with the willingness to negotiate free-trade arrangement. I
1:13:10 > 1:13:17think it will be something like the deal with Canada, a free-trade
1:13:17 > 1:13:21agreements and not something like the Norway deal.Thank you all very
1:13:21 > 1:13:23much.
1:13:23 > 1:13:25That's all for today, thanks to all my guests,
1:13:25 > 1:13:27especially Helen, Toby and Tim for keeping me company
1:13:27 > 1:13:28throughout the show.
1:13:28 > 1:13:31Join me again next Sunday at 11 here on BBC One.
1:13:31 > 1:13:33Until then, those of you who can, enjoy the snow.
1:13:33 > 1:13:41Bye bye.