17/12/2017

0:00:37 > 0:00:39Morning, everyone, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

0:00:39 > 0:00:41I'm Sarah Smith.

0:00:41 > 0:00:45And for the last time in 2017, this is your guide to the big

0:00:45 > 0:00:48political stories making the news this Sunday morning.

0:00:48 > 0:00:51Theresa May says she's silenced the doubters by securing a deal

0:00:51 > 0:00:59for Britain in the first phase of the Brexit negotations.

0:00:59 > 0:01:02Now attention turns to the much bigger task of deciding our future

0:01:02 > 0:01:03relationship with the EU.

0:01:03 > 0:01:06She'll be discussing that with her cabinet this week,

0:01:06 > 0:01:09but with so many huge unresolved questions about life after Brexit,

0:01:09 > 0:01:12can we possibly expect seasonal goodwill to break out

0:01:12 > 0:01:17across the Tory party and the country?

0:01:17 > 0:01:22And I'm here at stunning Warwick Castle to find out whether people

0:01:22 > 0:01:26here think that Labour are ready or not ready for government,

0:01:26 > 0:01:28and of course that means... I've bought the balls.

0:01:28 > 0:01:30In the capital, with Christmas approaching, the harrowing plight

0:01:30 > 0:01:39of refugees and the difficulties London faces in trying to help.

0:01:43 > 0:01:47All that coming up in the programme, our final show of the year.

0:01:47 > 0:01:49Think of it as our early Christmas present,

0:01:49 > 0:01:52one I'm afraid you can't take back to the shops.

0:01:52 > 0:01:54And joining me today, Fleet Street's answer

0:01:54 > 0:01:56to Santa's little helpers, Tom Newton Dunn,

0:01:56 > 0:01:59Camilla Tominey and Steve Richards.

0:01:59 > 0:02:02Well, we began the year talking about Brexit,

0:02:02 > 0:02:09and we'll finish talking about... you've guessed it, Brexit.

0:02:09 > 0:02:11And there have been big developments in just the past week,

0:02:11 > 0:02:15which saw Theresa May go from hero to zero, to somewhere in between.

0:02:17 > 0:02:23Seasonal goodwill spread through the Conservative Party

0:02:23 > 0:02:26on Monday, when Theresa May reported back to Parliament on her deal to

0:02:26 > 0:02:28move Brexit talks on to phase two.

0:02:28 > 0:02:31When people like me, Brexiteers, look at the alternative,

0:02:31 > 0:02:34namely the Labour government, a Labour government staying

0:02:34 > 0:02:37in the single market forever and having no control over

0:02:37 > 0:02:39immigration, it's amazing how our minds are concentrated

0:02:39 > 0:02:43in support of the Prime Minister.

0:02:43 > 0:02:44Across these benches, complete unanimity

0:02:44 > 0:02:50in congratulating the Prime Minister on securing this agreement.

0:02:50 > 0:02:53That Christmas cheer did not last long.

0:02:53 > 0:02:56On the eve of the European summit to ratify the deal,

0:02:56 > 0:03:00the EU Withdrawal Bill was back in the Commons.

0:03:00 > 0:03:03The Government avoided defeat on several amendments,

0:03:03 > 0:03:05but then came former Attorney General Dominic Grieve

0:03:05 > 0:03:08and his call for MPs to have a meaningful vote

0:03:08 > 0:03:11on the final Brexit deal.

0:03:11 > 0:03:13Brexit Secretary David Davis tried to head off the rebellion

0:03:13 > 0:03:15with a letter to backbenchers.

0:03:15 > 0:03:17In the final hour, there was a last-ditch offer.

0:03:17 > 0:03:20It wasn't enough.

0:03:20 > 0:03:22It's too late. I'm sorry.

0:03:22 > 0:03:26You cannot, you cannot treat the House in this fashion.

0:03:26 > 0:03:28The Prime Minister suffered her first defeat on government

0:03:28 > 0:03:31business of her premiership.

0:03:31 > 0:03:37The ayes to the right, 309. The noes to the left, 305.

0:03:37 > 0:03:42Labour were delighted.

0:03:42 > 0:03:45The Prime Minister tried a power grab, tried to push through the EU

0:03:45 > 0:03:47Withdrawal Bill without proper Parliamentary scrutiny and take

0:03:47 > 0:03:50powers away from Parliament. Parliament resisted tonight.

0:03:50 > 0:03:52Brexit supporters were enraged.

0:03:52 > 0:03:55One rebel, Stephen Hammond, was promptly sacked

0:03:55 > 0:03:58as vice-chairman of the party.

0:03:58 > 0:04:01It was an embarrassment for Theresa May, not a fatal blow.

0:04:01 > 0:04:07On Thursday, she arrived in Brussels sounding upbeat.

0:04:07 > 0:04:10I'm disappointed with the amendment, but actually the, EU Withdrawal Bill

0:04:10 > 0:04:12is making good progress through the House of Commons,

0:04:12 > 0:04:17and we're on course to deliver on Brexit.

0:04:17 > 0:04:22She was applauded by leaders of the 27 EU member states,

0:04:22 > 0:04:25rewarded on Friday with a tweet from EU Council President Donald

0:04:25 > 0:04:28Tusk confirming they had agreed to move on to phase two

0:04:28 > 0:04:31of the talks.

0:04:31 > 0:04:35"Congratulations, Theresa May," he said.

0:04:35 > 0:04:38Mrs May can't put her feet up for holidays just yet.

0:04:38 > 0:04:41The Cabinet will meet this week to discuss what the future

0:04:41 > 0:04:43relationship with the EU will look like for the first time.

0:04:43 > 0:04:47No one's expecting them all to be singing from the same carol sheet.

0:04:47 > 0:04:50But on Friday, a fresh rebellion over the EU

0:04:50 > 0:04:53Withdrawal Bill was headed off, so peace on earth, or at least

0:04:53 > 0:04:58within the Conservative Party, reigns for now.

0:05:02 > 0:05:07But how much longer can that harmony exist within the Cabinet? I will

0:05:07 > 0:05:11talk to the panel about next week's discussion on the future end state

0:05:11 > 0:05:15of our relations with the EU, because it will be discussed in

0:05:15 > 0:05:19Cabinet for the first time. Theresa May writing in the papers today, she

0:05:19 > 0:05:23proved the doubters wrong, is she right?She did in the sense that

0:05:23 > 0:05:28many people thought she wouldn't get through the first phase. They found

0:05:28 > 0:05:32words to bind all parties together. That's what she did in the first

0:05:32 > 0:05:36phase. She is right in that sense. The second phase of which this

0:05:36 > 0:05:42Cabinet meeting this week will be just an early tiptoeing on the

0:05:42 > 0:05:49Touraine, it will be much more mountainous and difficult. I suspect

0:05:49 > 0:05:54the Cabinet meeting will be merely exploring some of the themes, and

0:05:54 > 0:05:56there will be, for sure, no resolution as to what the

0:05:56 > 0:06:01government's final position will be. We have seen some themes explored

0:06:01 > 0:06:06this week, Philip Hammond yesterday in China talking about staying

0:06:06 > 0:06:10within the EU rules and regulations during the transition. We have Boris

0:06:10 > 0:06:14Johnson in the papers today setting out a vision for by virgin further

0:06:14 > 0:06:18from the EU then people like Hammond would like. Will that be aired in

0:06:18 > 0:06:23Cabinet?Are they going to be singing from the same carol sheet...

0:06:23 > 0:06:28Will they sing from the same spreadsheet in relation to Philip

0:06:28 > 0:06:33Hammond's desires? We note Boris Johnson speaking today in the Sunday

0:06:33 > 0:06:36Times, talking about the notion of eventual self-governance and a

0:06:36 > 0:06:42diverging. You have also got Michael Gove wanting, during the transition

0:06:42 > 0:06:46period, for us to be out of the common agricultural policy, Albert

0:06:46 > 0:06:50the Common fisheries policy, that will be a difficult issue for them

0:06:50 > 0:06:54to discuss. We are not even getting onto the end trade deal, and which

0:06:54 > 0:07:00direction do we want to go in? The Prime Minister has made clear she

0:07:00 > 0:07:03wants Canada plus model as opposed to a Norway style of agreement,

0:07:03 > 0:07:09which to be fair to her, she pointed out in Florence. She said an EEA

0:07:09 > 0:07:14agreement was not what was agreed, and we don't want to be rule takers.

0:07:14 > 0:07:19There is a lot to play for. Two Cabinet meetings, one of the

0:07:19 > 0:07:24subcabinet, the war committee, and the one on Tuesday following the

0:07:24 > 0:07:27parliament really address.The papers have gone on the idea that

0:07:27 > 0:07:30Boris is setting out a different vision of Britain after Brexit, but

0:07:30 > 0:07:34is it different to Theresa May in her Florence Beach?Not really. This

0:07:34 > 0:07:40is no different to what Boris has said, the Sunday before Christmas,

0:07:40 > 0:07:47there had to be a row -- Florence speech. This is well established

0:07:47 > 0:07:53positions, we know what they all think, and we have all been saying

0:07:53 > 0:07:58for a year and a half since the referendum that am at some stage, it

0:07:58 > 0:08:02would have to be crossed. There has to be a big choice between a

0:08:02 > 0:08:06diverging or harmonisation, because so far, the EU has been binary about

0:08:06 > 0:08:12it. It won't be solved in Cabinet this week or next month, my bet is,

0:08:12 > 0:08:18yet again, they will come up with a fudged to present to the EU, or

0:08:18 > 0:08:24Cabinet will fall apart and half of them will have to leave. Eventually,

0:08:24 > 0:08:32it will have to be grasped in the autumn when the EU say, "You either

0:08:32 > 0:08:35have to defecate or get off the potty, because this is what is in

0:08:35 > 0:08:41front of you." The third option was interesting, at the summit on

0:08:41 > 0:08:44Friday, something interesting happened, which was the EU blinked,

0:08:44 > 0:08:48they said, "Move on to trade and transition." But we are not quite

0:08:48 > 0:08:53ready to do trade. We are incredibly United to begin with, now we don't

0:08:53 > 0:09:01know what we want. We have three months before trade starts in March

0:09:01 > 0:09:05for everybody, for the British Governor, to influence the EU 27 in

0:09:05 > 0:09:09their thinking, and come up with a great third Way, which is cake and

0:09:09 > 0:09:13eat it.And will be considerably more corrugated than what we have

0:09:13 > 0:09:16done already. Stay there, we will come back to you during the course

0:09:16 > 0:09:19of the programme.

0:09:19 > 0:09:21Well, we can speak now to the Conservative MP

0:09:21 > 0:09:23for mid-Bedfordshire.

0:09:23 > 0:09:25She ruffled some feathers this week when she said that pro-European

0:09:25 > 0:09:27Tories who rebelled on the EU Withdrawal Bill

0:09:27 > 0:09:28should be deselected.

0:09:28 > 0:09:34Thank you for joining us. Can we talk first about the transition, or

0:09:34 > 0:09:39implementation period, two years after we leave the EU, a number of

0:09:39 > 0:09:42your colleagues have expressed a number of serious concerns about the

0:09:42 > 0:09:45idea we will be following EU rules and regulations during that period,

0:09:45 > 0:09:51how worried are you about that?I think everybody's concerned about

0:09:51 > 0:09:56that. The important thing is, we get this period, this transition period,

0:09:56 > 0:09:59through and done as quickly as possible. Therefore, we have to

0:09:59 > 0:10:03reach agreement. The reason why it needs to be done as quickly as

0:10:03 > 0:10:07possible is because it is in Britain's interests, it is in the

0:10:07 > 0:10:12interest of business, who required stability and security, and

0:10:12 > 0:10:16confidence moving forward. We've do need to get to this position as

0:10:16 > 0:10:20quickly as possible. The rebels from last week are going to have to

0:10:20 > 0:10:24explain why, if they don't think we should leave the Commons fishery

0:10:24 > 0:10:28policy, why that would not be in Britain's interest. There is a lot

0:10:28 > 0:10:32up for debate going forward.The Chancellor made it clear that he

0:10:32 > 0:10:37would be replicating the status quo during this transition period. That

0:10:37 > 0:10:40doesn't mean leaving the common fisheries policy or die vaulting in

0:10:40 > 0:10:46any way from EU rules. -- by vaulting.During his budget speech,

0:10:46 > 0:10:54he himself talk about the uniqueness of Britain. It took about my own

0:10:54 > 0:10:58constituency and area, which will become a tech corridor. So he has

0:10:58 > 0:11:04highlighted areas where we can divert, which is in high-tech. We

0:11:04 > 0:11:08can do it in that area, we can do it in my constituency, like art we do

0:11:08 > 0:11:14it in other areas...The point he was talking about was, yesterday, he

0:11:14 > 0:11:18said, we would be subject to all old rules and regulations during that

0:11:18 > 0:11:24period.It also depends how long that period is going to be. Most

0:11:24 > 0:11:28reasonable and sensible people can accept a period of time when we need

0:11:28 > 0:11:32to have those discussions, and when we will abide by those rules. The

0:11:32 > 0:11:37problem is, what we don't want to see is Brexit constantly kicked into

0:11:37 > 0:11:40the long grass as we go further and further forward, and Brexit never

0:11:40 > 0:11:45seems to be actually happening. There has to be an endgame.

0:11:45 > 0:11:49Everybody wants to see that. If we can't see that quickly enough, then

0:11:49 > 0:11:54we do have to have these unique and these individual situations where we

0:11:54 > 0:11:58may need to pull out of certain things sooner.Talking about the

0:11:58 > 0:12:01endgame, that is what the Cabinet will discuss this week, we know

0:12:01 > 0:12:05there will be a debate inside there, and people like Philip Hammond the

0:12:05 > 0:12:09Chancellor will argue that we stay closely aligned to EU rules and

0:12:09 > 0:12:12regulations even after we have finally left, how worried are you

0:12:12 > 0:12:19about those so-called soft Brexiteers prevailing in Cabinet?

0:12:19 > 0:12:26Gosh, do you know... I'm not sure they will prevail. I trust Theresa

0:12:26 > 0:12:30May, I trust David Davies, I trust Amber Rudd. I trust all of the

0:12:30 > 0:12:34people in Cabinet to reach an agreement. And because what they

0:12:34 > 0:12:37will be doing is reaching an agreement in Britain's interest and

0:12:37 > 0:12:41the interest of Parliament, and the interest of Brexit. All of those

0:12:41 > 0:12:45people in Cabinet stood on a manifesto in 2017 to deliver Brexit,

0:12:45 > 0:12:50and they have to do that in a way which the British people, who

0:12:50 > 0:12:53democratically exercised their vote, would like to see. Otherwise they

0:12:53 > 0:12:57will lose the support of the British public.You say you trust the

0:12:57 > 0:13:00Cabinet to deliver Brexit, do you trust all of your Tory MP colleagues

0:13:00 > 0:13:06to do so?Well, I hope so. Can I just say, I know the rebels are

0:13:06 > 0:13:11being lauded as he arose from whence they not, can I tell you who the

0:13:11 > 0:13:18real heroes are in all of this, they are the Conservative MPs, not the

0:13:18 > 0:13:23Labour MPs, but the Conservative MPs who believed in Remain, who

0:13:23 > 0:13:27campaigned for Remain, during the EU referendum, but stood on a manifesto

0:13:27 > 0:13:31to deliver Brexit, and they are the people who are the unsung heroes,

0:13:31 > 0:13:35who are backing the government and backing Theresa May, and doing so

0:13:35 > 0:13:39because they know that is their duty to do so. Some of the rebels could

0:13:39 > 0:13:43perhaps learn a lesson from some of their Remain colleagues, who know

0:13:43 > 0:13:48the right thing to do is to deliver Brexit, because that was voted for a

0:13:48 > 0:13:55democratic mandate.You are being quite Conser Liege reef, --

0:13:55 > 0:13:59consulate tree, but you did at the time tweaked that they should be

0:13:59 > 0:14:02deselected and never allowed to stand as Tory MPs again, have you

0:14:02 > 0:14:08changed your mind about that? Gosh... I don't know if I have

0:14:08 > 0:14:12changed my mind, but what I meant at the time was, most of these rebels

0:14:12 > 0:14:18voted for the private members' Bill to have a referendum. They stood on

0:14:18 > 0:14:23a manifesto in 2015 to deliver that referendum. And then they stood

0:14:23 > 0:14:27again on a manifesto in 2017 to implement Brexit. I think, to go

0:14:27 > 0:14:34back on those promises, that they were elected to honour, it is

0:14:34 > 0:14:39something for their associations to discuss and consider...But... Have

0:14:39 > 0:14:44they gone back on those promises? They would say they still want to

0:14:44 > 0:14:47intimate Brexit, they just want Parliament to have control over that

0:14:47 > 0:14:54rather than the executive.No, I don't believe they do. I believe

0:14:54 > 0:14:57what they have deliberately tried to do right from the moment of the

0:14:57 > 0:15:01referendum result is to frustrate and delay Brexit, and I believe this

0:15:01 > 0:15:06is a very active tactic they are using. No, I do believe they are

0:15:06 > 0:15:12honouring the promise they stood on in the 20 Zinedine manifesto. They

0:15:12 > 0:15:17should put trust in David Davies and the Prime Minister. Rather than make

0:15:17 > 0:15:20life difficult for the Prime Minister when she is leaving to go

0:15:20 > 0:15:24to Brussels for further negotiations, trust the Prime

0:15:24 > 0:15:27Minister and assist the Prime Minister. That is what they have

0:15:27 > 0:15:30been elected to do. There is a Conservative government that has

0:15:30 > 0:15:38been elected on a manifesto to deliver Brexit.

0:15:38 > 0:15:41From the beginning, they have gone out of their way to delay and

0:15:41 > 0:15:46frustrate this, and they need to stop doing it.Anna Soubry, one of

0:15:46 > 0:15:49the rebels, writing in the Mail on Sunday, says that calls for rebels

0:15:49 > 0:15:54to be deselected mean the Tories now have their own blue momentum

0:15:54 > 0:16:04movement.

0:16:31 > 0:16:36I do, I am sure he does.You frequently voted with your

0:16:36 > 0:16:41conscience, you voted against Tory primaries does in the past and

0:16:41 > 0:16:49rebelled against the whip, why is it different?I voted many times

0:16:49 > 0:16:52against the government, I am a self-declared rebel, but I do it at

0:16:52 > 0:16:56a time, you have to choose your rebellions carefully. What I would

0:16:56 > 0:17:00say is different now is that we have a Marxist government knocking on the

0:17:00 > 0:17:04door. We have a full mandate from the British public to deliver

0:17:04 > 0:17:10Brexit, they voted for it in the referendum. These MPs stood on that

0:17:10 > 0:17:13promise in 2017, today is very different. What happened on

0:17:13 > 0:17:17Wednesday night was the rebels put a spring in the step of Labour MPs.

0:17:17 > 0:17:24The party in Jeremy Corbyn's office could be heard in the car park

0:17:24 > 0:17:28outside. It has made life difficult for us to keep that Marxist

0:17:28 > 0:17:31government out of power eventually. They have helped Labour MPs find

0:17:31 > 0:17:38their mojo one is again. We don't want that to happen. We have an

0:17:38 > 0:17:43important situation that has not been seen since wartime. The

0:17:43 > 0:17:47response ability was to support the government.Nadeem, thank you for

0:17:47 > 0:17:50talking to us this morning.

0:17:50 > 0:17:52We can speak now to one of the leading pro-EU

0:17:52 > 0:17:55Conservative MPs, Ken Clarke. He's in Nottingham.

0:17:55 > 0:18:02Thank you for joining us this warning.Glad to be here.I hope you

0:18:02 > 0:18:06could hear Nadine Dorries, she says rebels, you and others, but voted

0:18:06 > 0:18:11against the government on Wednesday, are trying to reverse Brexit.You

0:18:11 > 0:18:14have succeeded in getting into all of this personal stuff, but I do

0:18:14 > 0:18:21think she is aiming it at me. I am a member of the government that led us

0:18:21 > 0:18:26into Europe and the single market, I did not vote in the referendum, and

0:18:26 > 0:18:29my constituents have no doubts about my views. The 20 Zinedine manifesto

0:18:29 > 0:18:34was produced after I had been adopted as a candidate, no one sent

0:18:34 > 0:18:40me a copy, and I haven't ever seen a copy of it. Let's get back to the

0:18:40 > 0:18:44big issues, which are how do we preserve the future prosperity of

0:18:44 > 0:18:48this country? How do we preserve a leading position in world affairs to

0:18:48 > 0:18:54look after our interest? What is the best thing to do for the interests

0:18:54 > 0:18:58of our children and our grandchildren? All of these other

0:18:58 > 0:19:07things, the right-wing newspaper rubbish,, it is trying to get a Tory

0:19:07 > 0:19:10equivalent of momentum.Do you think that the way to preserve the things

0:19:10 > 0:19:15you talk about is to put reverse Brexit?I don't think we can do

0:19:15 > 0:19:23that. I was in the small minority when I voted against in -- invoking

0:19:23 > 0:19:28Article 50. The party is moving towards Brexit, the country will see

0:19:28 > 0:19:41Brexit. Suddenly turning Brexit into a proposal, we have big lorry parks,

0:19:41 > 0:19:46customs officers, so different market regulations, you know,

0:19:46 > 0:19:51different rules about backing cleaner noise, that was not what the

0:19:51 > 0:19:55referendum was about. More importantly, it will do great damage

0:19:55 > 0:19:58to our economy, it could cost thousands of jobs and make the

0:19:58 > 0:20:08country much mess less attractive. We have now got to try to reach an

0:20:08 > 0:20:13agreement that produces a sensible, sensible political and economic

0:20:13 > 0:20:19future for this country in the real world, not in the slightly childish

0:20:19 > 0:20:22world of knock about politics.How confident are you the Cabinet will

0:20:22 > 0:20:27come to that compromise when they start to discuss things this week?

0:20:27 > 0:20:31We keep having public statements, which are rather alarming, but I am

0:20:31 > 0:20:35reasonably confident that they can. What are you alarmed by in the

0:20:35 > 0:20:43public state was?You are trying to get me to go on about Boris, out of

0:20:43 > 0:20:51line with what apply Mr has done. But the Chancellor has a duty to

0:20:51 > 0:20:55actually look after the British economy, to make sure business is

0:20:55 > 0:21:02not deterred from coming to this country, to make sure we keep our

0:21:02 > 0:21:07markets in Europe, and in the rest of the world, as intact as we can. I

0:21:07 > 0:21:13think the Cabinet will rally around that.Theresa May made pretty clear

0:21:13 > 0:21:16in her Florence speech that what we will leave the supermarket, the

0:21:16 > 0:21:30customs unit, and there fetch you ruled out the post Brexit future?

0:21:30 > 0:21:35Lancaster House was the first time anyone had interpreted, anyone in

0:21:35 > 0:21:38authority, had interpreted the referendum result to mean that. It

0:21:38 > 0:21:43does give rise to problems. What they have now got to address is the

0:21:43 > 0:21:47problems that arise. It started with last week, we suddenly faced

0:21:47 > 0:21:52Ireland, which nobody had mentioned, which is an insult to the people of

0:21:52 > 0:21:56Northern Ireland and Republic of Island, really we agreed then, we

0:21:56 > 0:22:00must keep the border open with regulatory convergence on both

0:22:00 > 0:22:04sides. It applies to Dover and Folkestone, and we won't get

0:22:04 > 0:22:12planning permission for the lorry parks we would need if we rush on

0:22:12 > 0:22:16abandoning the single market in March, 2019, we have brought coming.

0:22:16 > 0:22:21Let's not into Gibraltar. It would make the Irish problems looked like

0:22:21 > 0:22:25a picnic. You will have a lot of adage businesses wondering where on

0:22:25 > 0:22:34earth Britain is going unless we now interpret policy of the Florence

0:22:34 > 0:22:37speech and move on from the Florence speech, which was a big move

0:22:37 > 0:22:42forward, move on from the fact that we finally settled these three quite

0:22:42 > 0:22:46simple issues that had to be settled about our withdrawal, which could

0:22:46 > 0:22:54have been months ago had it not been for the troubles.

0:22:54 > 0:22:58We need to get onto a sensible economic future worked out by people

0:22:58 > 0:23:03prepared to read the brief and who know something about trade,

0:23:03 > 0:23:07investment and business in the modern, globalised economy.With the

0:23:07 > 0:23:12vote last week, in which Parliament now gets a meaningful say on the

0:23:12 > 0:23:16Brexit deal, do you interpret that to mean that parliament could send

0:23:16 > 0:23:19the Prime Minister back to Brussels to renegotiate a different deal if

0:23:19 > 0:23:22Parliament doesn't like it, so your views have to be taken into account

0:23:22 > 0:23:29with the final deal?Politics in this country is based on all

0:23:29 > 0:23:32governments having to take the views of Parliament into account. It's

0:23:32 > 0:23:36difficult when Parliament is a small majority where there is confusion,

0:23:36 > 0:23:42because the issue cuts across party lines, that makes it more difficult,

0:23:42 > 0:23:45but it was a mistake to invoke the royal prerogative, a mistake to try

0:23:45 > 0:23:51and avoid Parliament revoked. In the end, this is determining our future

0:23:51 > 0:23:56for the next generation or two on difficult issues that Parliament

0:23:56 > 0:24:00will have to approve before government can get a deal. That

0:24:00 > 0:24:04should strengthen Theresa May and David Davis's hands in the

0:24:04 > 0:24:08negotiations because, just like the other 27 negotiators, they will have

0:24:08 > 0:24:13to say that they can't deliver things which they can't get past

0:24:13 > 0:24:17their own parliament.It's been reported this morning that Heidi

0:24:17 > 0:24:20Allen, a Conservative MP who rebelled against the government last

0:24:20 > 0:24:26week, is facing threats of deselection. You are perfectly safe

0:24:26 > 0:24:31in your constituency, are you? What do you think of the other rebels

0:24:31 > 0:24:35being deselected?I don't think my constituents have any doubts about

0:24:35 > 0:24:38my views, not all of my association agree with me, but I have never

0:24:38 > 0:24:43fallen out with anybody personally because of political differences. I

0:24:43 > 0:24:49think this is all nonsense. It's caused by the rubbish that keeps

0:24:49 > 0:24:51appearing in the right-wing newspapers, which have completely

0:24:51 > 0:24:55lost their heads over the whole thing. It is totally absurd to say

0:24:55 > 0:25:01this is helping Jeremy Corbyn, it is weakening Theresa May and all the

0:25:01 > 0:25:05rest of it. Here we are, three days after the vote took place, and

0:25:05 > 0:25:10Theresa May is no weaker and she was after that. Jeremy Corbyn is not

0:25:10 > 0:25:18marching towards Downing Street. What we voted for is a Parliamentary

0:25:18 > 0:25:22accountability of the government. Nothing to do with blocking Brexit,

0:25:22 > 0:25:28and it is utterly idiotic few of our association members in various parts

0:25:28 > 0:25:34of country start interpreting this as the start of some sort of purge

0:25:34 > 0:25:39of backbench members of conscience. Eurosceptics have been voting

0:25:39 > 0:25:43against the government for the last 30 years, and nobody on my side of

0:25:43 > 0:25:46the argument has ever gone round saying they should be expelled from

0:25:46 > 0:25:54the party and sent to darkness. It is a broad church, it is a

0:25:54 > 0:25:58free-market party with a strong social conscience, and it has been a

0:25:58 > 0:26:02pro-European party for the first 50 years of my membership.Thank you

0:26:02 > 0:26:07for talking to us, and I'll come back to the panel. He says the Prime

0:26:07 > 0:26:10Minister was not weakened by that vote, and neither was Jeremy Corbyn

0:26:10 > 0:26:16emboldened. Is he right?Not quite right. What the vote did was point

0:26:16 > 0:26:22out what we all secretly knew. She wasn't further weakened by it, she

0:26:22 > 0:26:30was weakened by the general election result. She was always going to be

0:26:30 > 0:26:32in this predicament without a majority. That vote reminded

0:26:32 > 0:26:39everybody of how weak she is and will continue to be as this entire

0:26:39 > 0:26:42Parliament passes.The accusation from people like Nadine Dorries is

0:26:42 > 0:26:46that this helps Labour and intentionally offers in a Corbyn

0:26:46 > 0:26:51government is any truth in that? There was a perception of truth

0:26:51 > 0:26:56because of how close he got to number ten, which took us by

0:26:56 > 0:26:58surprise on election night, apart from you, who got it right. But

0:26:58 > 0:27:03equally I think there was a sense with Theresa May's own popularity,

0:27:03 > 0:27:07and recent polling is said that the Conservatives are gaining an Jeremy

0:27:07 > 0:27:13Corbyn, which is perhaps explained by the fact that people are unclear,

0:27:13 > 0:27:15despite numerous explanations by Keir Starmer, shadow Brexit

0:27:15 > 0:27:19Secretary, on the Labour opposition. They appear to have backtracked on

0:27:19 > 0:27:22their manifesto and want close alignment, if not remaining in the

0:27:22 > 0:27:27supermarket and customs union, which is anathema to anybody who voted for

0:27:27 > 0:27:30Brexit an Jeremy Corbyn and Labour, and equally I think it's interesting

0:27:30 > 0:27:36that, once we take ourselves out of Westminster bubble, some of the talk

0:27:36 > 0:27:39on the streets about Theresa May's apparent weakness is misplaced. A

0:27:39 > 0:27:44lots of people think she has shown resilience and they appreciate she

0:27:44 > 0:27:47is in a difficult political mess, in terms of her lack of a larger

0:27:47 > 0:27:52majority and the rest of it, but I think she was pity David after

0:27:52 > 0:27:58coughing gate, and I think that has turned into grudging admiration for

0:27:58 > 0:28:01the fact that she has defied the people who said it would be

0:28:01 > 0:28:06impossible and managed to get to the second phase of negotiations.I

0:28:06 > 0:28:09think what we got with the vote was recognition that this is a hung

0:28:09 > 0:28:16parliament. In a hung Parliament, government get defeated. . This is

0:28:16 > 0:28:20new to us because we had the coalition which a majority and the

0:28:20 > 0:28:27Labour and Thatcher landslide eras, but in the 70s, the key moments that

0:28:27 > 0:28:32Labour government defeated again and again, this one will. It's not that

0:28:32 > 0:28:35she is inherently weak as a personality, she is just in a weak

0:28:35 > 0:28:39position. There was a majority forming. It probably could have been

0:28:39 > 0:28:46bigger. In favour of that amendment last week. It will happen again

0:28:46 > 0:28:50because the House of Commons is in a different place on Europe than she

0:28:50 > 0:28:57is.Briefly.What was fascinating is that Nadine Dorries and those of her

0:28:57 > 0:29:00like said, you weakened her, nobody will take seriously in Brussels, but

0:29:00 > 0:29:08she went and she got love oned. It had an inverse effect. -- love oned.

0:29:08 > 0:29:13Using weakness as a strength.

0:29:13 > 0:29:16And you can find more Brexit analysis and explanation on the BBC

0:29:16 > 0:29:17website, at bbc.co.uk/brexit.

0:29:17 > 0:29:18Let's turn now to Labour.

0:29:18 > 0:29:21As 2017 draws to a close they've got plenty to feel upbeat about,

0:29:21 > 0:29:24although they could have to wait another four and a half years

0:29:24 > 0:29:26for a chance to form a government.

0:29:26 > 0:29:28The party says it's ready, but do the public agree?

0:29:28 > 0:29:31Elizabeth Glinka took the entirely unscientific moodbox

0:29:31 > 0:29:33to the constituency of Warwick and Leamington, a former

0:29:33 > 0:29:37Conservative seat snatched by Labour in June.

0:29:38 > 0:29:41This week, Theresa May faced her first defeat

0:29:41 > 0:29:44in the House of Commons - and, if you speak to Labour

0:29:44 > 0:29:46activists, they will tell you a general election could be just

0:29:46 > 0:29:50around the corner, and they are more than ready to form a government.

0:29:50 > 0:29:52So we've come here to Warwick Castle to ask people,

0:29:52 > 0:29:56is Labour ready or not ready?

0:29:59 > 0:30:00No, definitely not.

0:30:00 > 0:30:01Why not?

0:30:01 > 0:30:03I don't like the Labour leader.

0:30:04 > 0:30:07It's the first time I've been asked about politics here in the castle.

0:30:07 > 0:30:08I think they are ready.

0:30:08 > 0:30:11Absolutely not ready.

0:30:11 > 0:30:14They don't seem to have any strong policies and every time you hear

0:30:14 > 0:30:17them arguing against the Government they are just negative.

0:30:17 > 0:30:20There's not a positive, constructive response.

0:30:21 > 0:30:24I came from a country which was Communist for a long time.

0:30:24 > 0:30:27It terrifies me when I hear some of their ideas.

0:30:27 > 0:30:29Although I don't like the other guys, too.

0:30:29 > 0:30:32LAUGHTER.

0:30:32 > 0:30:35Would you say the Labour Party is ready for government?

0:30:35 > 0:30:37Yes.

0:30:37 > 0:30:39I'll take that as a yes.

0:30:39 > 0:30:40Sorry, Jeremy.

0:30:40 > 0:30:43I remember British Rail before it was privatised.

0:30:43 > 0:30:47It was dreadful.

0:30:47 > 0:30:49I would say ready.

0:30:49 > 0:30:53I think that the Tory party are totally focused on Brexit.

0:30:53 > 0:30:56They are not looking at any of the other problems,

0:30:56 > 0:30:58the NHS, housing, transport, everything else that's

0:30:58 > 0:31:00going on in the country, and I think the Labour Party

0:31:00 > 0:31:02would look at those other issues.

0:31:02 > 0:31:03Not ready.

0:31:03 > 0:31:04Not ready.

0:31:04 > 0:31:06They're not clear on their policies and a lot of infighting,

0:31:06 > 0:31:09so I just don't think they are ready to be in charge yet.

0:31:10 > 0:31:11Thank you for this.

0:31:11 > 0:31:12That's OK.

0:31:12 > 0:31:15There is never a knight around when you need one.

0:31:16 > 0:31:17I'd go with ready.

0:31:17 > 0:31:19I think, from what we've got at the moment, I think

0:31:19 > 0:31:21give them a chance.

0:31:21 > 0:31:23OK, let's go for it then.

0:31:23 > 0:31:25Not ready, maybe because I don't think the Shadow Chancellor

0:31:25 > 0:31:28is at all suitable.

0:31:32 > 0:31:34They can't do any worse than what we've already got

0:31:34 > 0:31:37at the moment, so I think time for a change.

0:31:37 > 0:31:42Would you say the Labour Party is ready or not ready for government?

0:31:45 > 0:31:46Interesting.

0:31:46 > 0:31:47Not ready.

0:31:47 > 0:31:48Why is that?

0:31:48 > 0:31:51Not ready, because they are still bickering amongst themselves.

0:31:51 > 0:31:53Because I am fed up with the Conservative government.

0:31:53 > 0:31:54I feel we need a change.

0:31:54 > 0:31:56OK, so why did you go for not ready?

0:31:56 > 0:31:59I just don't think they have what it takes just yet.

0:31:59 > 0:32:01Well, only eight more sleeps till Christmas,

0:32:01 > 0:32:04and I'm afraid Jeremy Corbyn may not like his present this year.

0:32:04 > 0:32:06The visitors here to Warwick Castle say that Labour is not

0:32:06 > 0:32:09ready for government.

0:32:09 > 0:32:14Right, better get the rest of these presents delivered.

0:32:14 > 0:32:16Elizabeth Glinka with the decidedly unscientific

0:32:16 > 0:32:18moodbox at Warwick Castle.

0:32:18 > 0:32:20Well, I'm joined now by the shadow justice

0:32:20 > 0:32:26secretary Richard Burgon, he's in Leeds.

0:32:26 > 0:32:32Good morning.Good morning, Sarah. We were told in the summer that

0:32:32 > 0:32:36Jeremy Corbyn reportedly said he would be Prime Minister by

0:32:36 > 0:32:40Christmas. It doesn't look as though it is likely to happen. Will he be

0:32:40 > 0:32:45in Number Ten by next Christmas, do you think?Who knows, all we can say

0:32:45 > 0:32:48is we will be ready for another general election when it take place

0:32:48 > 0:32:52and we are ready to go the full course is that needs to be the case

0:32:52 > 0:32:57as well.In order to be ready for an election, it will be important to

0:32:57 > 0:33:01have a clear position on Brexit, and in fairness the Labour opposition

0:33:01 > 0:33:05there has been some clarity in the last couple of weeks on bad, and it

0:33:05 > 0:33:12appears the wants to stay much closer to EU rules and regulations

0:33:12 > 0:33:15than the Conservative Party.What Labour wants to do is to reach a

0:33:15 > 0:33:20position where we have a good relationship with the EU has Brexit,

0:33:20 > 0:33:23because Britain is leaving the European Union and Labour accepts

0:33:23 > 0:33:26and respect the outcome of the referendum, and we want a post

0:33:26 > 0:33:31Brexit Britain where the economy and jobs is put first, not fixated on

0:33:31 > 0:33:34structures. That is the end goal we want to reach, will return as they

0:33:34 > 0:33:41good trading relationship with the EU and the rest of the world. --

0:33:41 > 0:33:44where Britain has a good trading relationship. And we want to protect

0:33:44 > 0:33:49environmental rights and workers as well.The Tories would say they are

0:33:49 > 0:33:52interested in those things as well but there has to be a structure

0:33:52 > 0:33:56around this when we have an in-state relationship with the EU. Is it fair

0:33:56 > 0:34:02to say you want a closer relationship than the government is

0:34:02 > 0:34:07arguing for?We have set out the vision of what we want in terms of

0:34:07 > 0:34:11Britain post Brexit. The problem that Theresa May as with negotiating

0:34:11 > 0:34:14is that, at the same time as negotiating with Brussels, she has

0:34:14 > 0:34:21two negotiate with her backbenchers and the extreme caucus in the

0:34:21 > 0:34:24Conservative Party who are ideological fixated on structures

0:34:24 > 0:34:31and the ECJ, and that raised -- that has really weakened her, as we saw

0:34:31 > 0:34:34in Parliament.We will have to have answers on those questions. If you

0:34:34 > 0:34:38say you are ready to form a government within the next year,

0:34:38 > 0:34:41Labour needs clear answers on these questions about whether or not you

0:34:41 > 0:34:46would ever consider a continuing role for the European Court of

0:34:46 > 0:34:52Justice, for instance.We see it as common sense that the ECJ should

0:34:52 > 0:34:59play a role in the transition period...After that?We are open

0:34:59 > 0:35:02minded, because every trade deal these institutions to protect and

0:35:02 > 0:35:07oversee that deal. Seems like common sense.Tom Watson has said that he

0:35:07 > 0:35:10wouldn't rule out a second referendum on Brexit, and Jeremy

0:35:10 > 0:35:13Corbyn a few weeks ago in Lisbon said something similar. Would you be

0:35:13 > 0:35:18in favour of a second referendum? Labour isn't calling for a second

0:35:18 > 0:35:26referendum.But Tom Watson said he wouldn't run it out.It could be the

0:35:26 > 0:35:30case that Theresa May caves in and starts asking for another

0:35:30 > 0:35:34referendum, I doubt that we are not in government I can say clearly we

0:35:34 > 0:35:39are not arguing for a second referendum, and I think that was

0:35:39 > 0:35:44made clear on Andrew Marr earlier today by Diane Abbott.Whatever the

0:35:44 > 0:35:47end relationship between the UK and EU, is it important you and to

0:35:47 > 0:35:54Labour that we see lower levels of immigration from the EU?We want to

0:35:54 > 0:35:58put the economy and jobs first and, if you listen to the public sector

0:35:58 > 0:36:03and the NHS, the care sector, they are clear that the role EU migrants

0:36:03 > 0:36:07have played and are playing is essential to growth, essential to

0:36:07 > 0:36:12the private sector, but also essential to our NHS as well.That

0:36:12 > 0:36:16sounds like you don't want lower levels of immigration after we

0:36:16 > 0:36:21leave.We want to put jobs and economy first, we want fair and

0:36:21 > 0:36:26reasonably managed migration, but free movement as it is will end when

0:36:26 > 0:36:29Britain leaves the EU and we will need a new arrangement that is fair

0:36:29 > 0:36:34and reasonably managed. We want to put and the public economy first.

0:36:34 > 0:36:43The Conservatives have a bad track record of making headline grabbing

0:36:43 > 0:36:48false promises on immigration but never meeting those targets.You are

0:36:48 > 0:36:51an enthusiastic supporter of Richard Leonard, the new leader of the

0:36:51 > 0:36:55Scottish Labour Party. You have called him an inspiring socialist in

0:36:55 > 0:36:59the past. Are you hoping the UK Labour manifesto will copy some of

0:36:59 > 0:37:04his rather more radical Labour ideas?It is for the Scottish Labour

0:37:04 > 0:37:09Party to decide Scottish policy.But do you want to some of his ideas

0:37:09 > 0:37:17replicated nationwide?We agree on most things, and Richard Leonard

0:37:17 > 0:37:21supported the UK wide manifesto in 2011, he enthusiastically supported

0:37:21 > 0:37:26the minimum wage rise, taking railways back into public ownership.

0:37:26 > 0:37:32What about the idea for a one-off wealth tax, 1% of the total wealth

0:37:32 > 0:37:37of the richest 10% being paid?That is a matter for the Scottish Labour

0:37:37 > 0:37:44Party.But would you like the same thing adopted nationwide?Our

0:37:44 > 0:37:49manifesto isn't decided by Shadow Cabinet members making declarations

0:37:49 > 0:37:54on the Sunday Politics.But you are allowed a view.Our manifesto was

0:37:54 > 0:37:59reached on a consensus basis, not only the Shadow Cabinet and

0:37:59 > 0:38:02Parliamentary Labour Party but with members all over the country. We are

0:38:02 > 0:38:07now the biggest political party in Western Europe. It will be for me to

0:38:07 > 0:38:12be making policy decisions live on air. We believe in the politics of

0:38:12 > 0:38:15consensus and collectivism and we will be taking that forward with our

0:38:15 > 0:38:21next manifesto.Some viewers may not know that, as well as being a Labour

0:38:21 > 0:38:24MP, you present a heavy metal show on your local radio station, so we

0:38:24 > 0:38:26have a click to listen to.

0:38:26 > 0:38:29The new album of Vallenfyre is called Fear Those Who Fear Him,

0:38:29 > 0:38:32and it's so heavy, it feels painful to listen to, in a good way.

0:38:32 > 0:38:33Let's see if you agree.

0:38:33 > 0:38:37This song is by Vallenfyre and it's called An Apathetic Grave.

0:38:37 > 0:38:41METAL GUITAR RIFF.

0:38:41 > 0:38:49MUSIC: An Apathetic Grave by Vallentyre.

0:38:49 > 0:38:53Clearly, you are a big heavy metal band. Jeremy Corbyn told the NME you

0:38:53 > 0:38:58listen to everything from Mahler to piped music, but he has never

0:38:58 > 0:39:01mentioned heavy metal. Can you introduce him to some of your

0:39:01 > 0:39:08favourite tracks?I could do. Jeremy has been on the front page of

0:39:08 > 0:39:11Kerrang, and what was nice was that he didn't pretend to like heavy

0:39:11 > 0:39:15metal. It's good he set that. Far more refreshing than when David

0:39:15 > 0:39:18Cameron used to pretend to like the Smiths.

0:39:18 > 0:39:21It's coming up to 11:40, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:39:21 > 0:39:24And, remember this?

0:39:24 > 0:39:27We have agreed that the government should call a general election.

0:39:27 > 0:39:30You're joking... Not another one!

0:39:31 > 0:39:35When we come back, we'll be taking a look back at the year in politics,

0:39:35 > 0:39:36and what a year it's been.

0:39:36 > 0:39:38First though, its time for the Sunday Politics where you are.

0:39:46 > 0:39:49Hello and welcome to the London part of the show.

0:39:49 > 0:39:53I'm Jo Coburn, and I'm joined for the duration by Sarah Jones,

0:39:53 > 0:39:55Labour MP for Croydon Central, and Bob Stewart, Conservative

0:39:55 > 0:39:57MP for Beckenham.

0:39:57 > 0:39:59Welcome to both of you.

0:39:59 > 0:40:02I want to start today with the Grenfell Tower fire.

0:40:02 > 0:40:05This week marked six months since the tragedy

0:40:05 > 0:40:07that claimed 71 lives.

0:40:07 > 0:40:11A multi-faith memorial service was held at St Paul's Cathedral.

0:40:11 > 0:40:16It was attended by survivors of the fire.

0:40:16 > 0:40:18People from the emergency services and members of the royal family,

0:40:18 > 0:40:20and the Prime Minister Theresa May.

0:40:20 > 0:40:23Survivors also delivered a petition to Number 10,

0:40:23 > 0:40:26calling for Mrs May to appoint people with an understanding

0:40:26 > 0:40:30of the local community to assist the chairman of the panel enquiry,

0:40:30 > 0:40:33Sir Martin Moore-Bick.

0:40:33 > 0:40:37Bob, six months on, and only 42 households have moved

0:40:37 > 0:40:40into permanent new homes.

0:40:40 > 0:40:42Is that acceptable, as far as you're concerned?

0:40:42 > 0:40:45It's clearly not acceptable for the people trying to find new homes.

0:40:45 > 0:40:48It's not acceptable if we can do something about it.

0:40:48 > 0:40:52And I suspect they're trying to move heaven and earth to help.

0:40:52 > 0:40:56To be honest, of course, it's not acceptable.

0:40:56 > 0:40:59It would be great if we could actually find the homes very close

0:40:59 > 0:41:03to where people want to live, but it is difficult in London.

0:41:03 > 0:41:06Right, do you accept that, Sarah, that actually this is more

0:41:06 > 0:41:09about the process of actually finding homes in a capital city that

0:41:09 > 0:41:10has a housing shortage?

0:41:10 > 0:41:14I think there have been quite a lot of failings in the way that people

0:41:14 > 0:41:15have been treated since the fire.

0:41:15 > 0:41:17I think the initial response was not good enough,

0:41:17 > 0:41:21and I think it took a long time for all the agencies to come

0:41:21 > 0:41:23together to really put the resources into trying to make sure people

0:41:23 > 0:41:26were housed, as well as looking after people who were very

0:41:26 > 0:41:29traumatised and needed support.

0:41:29 > 0:41:31And I think the trust is not there.

0:41:31 > 0:41:33And we need to try to rebuild that.

0:41:33 > 0:41:35And one of the things that we've suggested,

0:41:35 > 0:41:39that others have suggested, that survivors want,

0:41:39 > 0:41:43is to have a panel of people who can look at the enquiry and help to make

0:41:43 > 0:41:45sure it reflects the diversity of all the people who found

0:41:45 > 0:41:50themselves without a home.

0:41:50 > 0:41:52But I think we definitely need to be putting more resources

0:41:52 > 0:41:59into finding permanent housing.

0:41:59 > 0:42:02So more money, you would like to see, going into specifically

0:42:02 > 0:42:04finding homes for people who survived the Grenfell fire?

0:42:04 > 0:42:06I think we need more effort and more resource.

0:42:06 > 0:42:09I asked the Secretary of State right after the fire how long it would be

0:42:09 > 0:42:12before people were permanently rehoused, and he said he expected it

0:42:12 > 0:42:14within a few months, and that clearly hasn't happened.

0:42:14 > 0:42:16Sarah is talking there about the petition presented

0:42:16 > 0:42:19to Number 10, in order to build trust, because Conservative councils

0:42:19 > 0:42:23from Kensington and Chelsea Council had been asked not to attend this

0:42:23 > 0:42:25week's memorial service.

0:42:25 > 0:42:27What does that say about the level

0:42:27 > 0:42:29of trust between the authority and the surviving families?

0:42:29 > 0:42:30I don't know.

0:42:30 > 0:42:33I can't speak for them, but I do know some MPs,

0:42:33 > 0:42:36some Tory MPs, certainly went along to try to go to that.

0:42:36 > 0:42:37I didn't.

0:42:37 > 0:42:40It's well away from my constituency, but I have great sympathy

0:42:40 > 0:42:41for what's happened.

0:42:41 > 0:42:44Goodness, everyone wants to look after the people that have

0:42:44 > 0:42:47been hurt by this fire.

0:42:47 > 0:42:49They want to get them into decent accommodation,

0:42:49 > 0:42:51decent homes as soon as possible, but it is not easy.

0:42:51 > 0:42:53It is not easy.

0:42:53 > 0:42:56It's not just money, it's more than that.

0:42:56 > 0:42:58We've got to have the available accommodation.

0:42:58 > 0:43:00And there isn't available accommodation, because look

0:43:00 > 0:43:04at London, the waiting lists to try to get into social housing.

0:43:04 > 0:43:07What about the role of the Mayor, Sarah Jones, because he could

0:43:07 > 0:43:09actually take a lead, Sadiq Khan.

0:43:09 > 0:43:12Boris Johnson, his predecessor, has criticised him for actually

0:43:12 > 0:43:15failing to step up to the plate and put more pressure on,

0:43:15 > 0:43:20and he's in a position to do so.

0:43:20 > 0:43:23Yeah, I think it was a very unfortunate politicising of a very

0:43:23 > 0:43:24difficult situation.

0:43:24 > 0:43:26The Mayor's done everything he possibly can, he's given a lot

0:43:26 > 0:43:29of his staff to support, he's putting in place support

0:43:29 > 0:43:31for small businesses in the area that are struggling,

0:43:31 > 0:43:34he's doing all he can to make sure people are getting

0:43:34 > 0:43:35the support they need.

0:43:35 > 0:43:37But actually allocating housing to people, that is not his role.

0:43:37 > 0:43:39Local authorities have to do that, that's their job.

0:43:39 > 0:43:41Right, couldn't he put more pressure on the councils

0:43:41 > 0:43:43and local authorities...

0:43:43 > 0:43:45He's put on as much pressure as he possibly can.

0:43:45 > 0:43:53There is a wider issue, which Bob rightly says,

0:43:53 > 0:43:55which is the lack of affordable housing and the lack

0:43:55 > 0:43:56of housing in London.

0:43:56 > 0:43:59And we need to be doing so much more for this.

0:43:59 > 0:44:01One of the really sad things about the situation is,

0:44:01 > 0:44:05people are saying, "We don't want to go into temporary

0:44:05 > 0:44:08accommodation, because we think we will be left there for years."

0:44:08 > 0:44:11And, "We don't want to turn anything down because then we are scared

0:44:11 > 0:44:13we will be intentionally homeless."

0:44:13 > 0:44:16All these horrific things, which people across London have to go

0:44:16 > 0:44:17through when they're homeless, quite rightly, people

0:44:17 > 0:44:20in Grenfell are going, "We don't want all these things

0:44:20 > 0:44:21to happen to us."

0:44:21 > 0:44:24And that speaks to a much bigger problem, which is about government

0:44:24 > 0:44:25investing in housing.

0:44:25 > 0:44:27And Theresa May made a personal pledge, didn't she,

0:44:27 > 0:44:30to those families, about rehousing them within a matter of weeks.

0:44:30 > 0:44:32And in the end, that again, feeds into a lack of trust

0:44:32 > 0:44:34in what politicians are promising.

0:44:34 > 0:44:35We all want them to be rehoused.

0:44:35 > 0:44:38I'm sure she meant that as best she could.

0:44:38 > 0:44:41We all want everyone to be put into a decent home

0:44:41 > 0:44:42as soon as possible.

0:44:42 > 0:44:45Has there been a failure here on behalf of the politicians

0:44:45 > 0:44:46and the authority?

0:44:46 > 0:44:48There's been a failure because we haven't got enough

0:44:48 > 0:44:52accommodation for people for emergencies like this.

0:44:52 > 0:44:55People don't want to move away from where they live, Grenfell,

0:44:55 > 0:44:58they don't want to move away from there, but there isn't

0:44:58 > 0:45:00within a few blocks, within a few streets,

0:45:00 > 0:45:01there isn't the accommodation there.

0:45:01 > 0:45:05People were offered places outside and they don't want that,

0:45:05 > 0:45:07so it's really difficult.

0:45:07 > 0:45:10It's not just something you can fix easily.

0:45:10 > 0:45:12Well, it seems so.

0:45:12 > 0:45:14We're going to have to leave it there.

0:45:14 > 0:45:17In response to the ongoing wars in the Middle East

0:45:17 > 0:45:20and their contribution to the migrant crisis facing Europe,

0:45:20 > 0:45:23the UK Government pledged to resettle 20,000 Syrian refugees

0:45:23 > 0:45:27in this country by 2020.

0:45:27 > 0:45:27Matthew

0:45:27 > 0:45:30According to the latest Home Office statistics,

0:45:30 > 0:45:34Home Office statistics,

0:45:34 > 0:45:37London is actually the region in the UK that has taken

0:45:37 > 0:45:40in the fewest, only 400 or so, despite surveys that show a majority

0:45:40 > 0:45:45of Londoners being supportive of refugee resettlement in the capital.

0:45:46 > 0:45:53It is scenes like this that have forced more than 5 million to flee

0:45:53 > 0:45:55Syria and neighbouring countries since the outbreak of war.

0:45:55 > 0:45:57Religious persecution, ethnic conflict, violence against women,

0:45:57 > 0:46:00all have become widespread in parts of the Middle East, and it's causing

0:46:00 > 0:46:04many to look for refuge.

0:46:04 > 0:46:07Leila found it in London earlier this year under a government

0:46:07 > 0:46:13scheme that resettles endangered children and their parents.

0:46:13 > 0:46:19The children die, all the children die.

0:46:19 > 0:46:24I saw my children scared about the bomb and scared about...

0:46:24 > 0:46:27He can't play on the streets.

0:46:27 > 0:46:33This country, it's good for my children and for me,

0:46:33 > 0:46:34because gives us more options.

0:46:34 > 0:46:36What do you make of Londoners?

0:46:36 > 0:46:46Just London, just the name London, I feel...

0:46:46 > 0:46:49I can see more people and more language, and I see

0:46:49 > 0:46:53someone is not cover...

0:46:53 > 0:46:54Someone that is not covered.

0:46:54 > 0:46:57It's no problem.

0:46:57 > 0:47:01There, this is black, this is white, it's no problem.

0:47:01 > 0:47:02Refugee charities say there is strong support

0:47:02 > 0:47:04for resettlement in London.

0:47:04 > 0:47:06The population of London, they are desperate

0:47:06 > 0:47:10to welcome refugees.

0:47:10 > 0:47:13We see it every single day, with people wanting to volunteer

0:47:13 > 0:47:16for us, and they are calling on their local authorities to do

0:47:16 > 0:47:19all they can to resettle refugees into our wonderful capital.

0:47:19 > 0:47:21The Government has pledged by 2020 to take in 20,000

0:47:21 > 0:47:27refugees from Syria.

0:47:27 > 0:47:29So far, about half that number have been accepted,

0:47:29 > 0:47:31with London actually taking in the fewest, only 400.

0:47:31 > 0:47:34About half the local authorities in London haven't taken in a single

0:47:34 > 0:47:38refugee under the main scheme for refugee resettlement.

0:47:38 > 0:47:44Councils say it's because existing pressures on housing

0:47:44 > 0:47:46make it more difficult in the capital than elsewhere.

0:47:46 > 0:47:49According to City Hall, the solution lies in increasing

0:47:49 > 0:47:51the community sponsorship, and that includes the Archbishop

0:47:51 > 0:47:54of Canterbury, who is hosting a family of Syrian refugees

0:47:54 > 0:47:57in the grounds of Lambeth Palace.

0:47:57 > 0:47:59Lambeth has been more involved than most boroughs

0:47:59 > 0:48:00in welcoming refugees, even sending

0:48:00 > 0:48:03a representative to Calais.

0:48:03 > 0:48:07We've worked very closely with the community, in particular

0:48:07 > 0:48:09Lambeth Citizens Group, and as a result of that we've been

0:48:09 > 0:48:12able to manage to source housing that otherwise would have been

0:48:12 > 0:48:16unavailable for us, and it's because of that, I think,

0:48:16 > 0:48:19that we've been able to make sure we've got more refugees coming

0:48:19 > 0:48:21over to the country.

0:48:21 > 0:48:25Why is the London Borough of Lambeth devoting resources

0:48:25 > 0:48:27to the resettlement of refugees, when there is such a shortage

0:48:27 > 0:48:31of housing for those who are already living here?

0:48:31 > 0:48:35Housing is a real issue, but I think, for me

0:48:35 > 0:48:38and for the politicians in Lambeth, it's a moral case.

0:48:38 > 0:48:41We can do more and we need to help people who are living

0:48:41 > 0:48:42in dire circumstances.

0:48:42 > 0:48:47However, writer Douglas Murray isn't convinced that resettlement

0:48:47 > 0:48:49in London is the best way to help.

0:48:49 > 0:48:54It costs around 100 times as much to look after a migrant,

0:48:54 > 0:48:59an asylum seeker in Europe, in a country like Sweden,

0:48:59 > 0:49:02or a country like Britain, than it does to pay for them

0:49:02 > 0:49:06to remain in, for instance, Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey.

0:49:06 > 0:49:12We might feel that we can pat ourselves on the back for looking

0:49:12 > 0:49:16after 400 asylum seekers here, but that 400 asylum seekers

0:49:16 > 0:49:21could become 40,000.

0:49:21 > 0:49:23But Leila and her children are just grateful to be somewhere

0:49:23 > 0:49:25safe this Christmas.

0:49:25 > 0:49:29Thank you for giving us the chance, a new life.

0:49:29 > 0:49:34And Happy New Year.

0:49:34 > 0:49:37And joining us in the studio is Matthew Ryder, the deputy mayor

0:49:37 > 0:49:40for social integration, whose responsibilities include

0:49:40 > 0:49:42refugee resettlement in the capital.

0:49:42 > 0:49:44Welcome to the programme. Hi.

0:49:44 > 0:49:47London politicians like to talk about welcoming refugees but,

0:49:47 > 0:49:49in your mind, is 400 enough? No.

0:49:49 > 0:49:54I think it would be really good if we could do more,

0:49:54 > 0:49:57and I know the councils are doing the best they can, and City Hall

0:49:57 > 0:50:00is doing the best it can, but we have a structure,

0:50:00 > 0:50:03and the way the structure is set up means that a number of things have

0:50:03 > 0:50:06to be in place before a council can offer accommodation,

0:50:06 > 0:50:08because they must do it separately from the normal housing scheme

0:50:08 > 0:50:10for people who are here already.

0:50:10 > 0:50:13As a result, because of the way the structure is set up,

0:50:13 > 0:50:16it means that the housing price in London makes it very, very

0:50:16 > 0:50:19difficult to find available spaces, so I'd like London to do more

0:50:19 > 0:50:22and it's got to do its fair share.

0:50:22 > 0:50:25London wants to do its fair share but, at the moment, it's very

0:50:25 > 0:50:26difficult within that framework.

0:50:26 > 0:50:29We've got to find a way to make sure the framework is more flexible

0:50:29 > 0:50:32so that we don't have this problem with housing prices.

0:50:32 > 0:50:34But you say the councils are doing what they can,

0:50:34 > 0:50:37but there's a huge disparity in terms of the numbers that

0:50:37 > 0:50:38individual councils are taking.

0:50:38 > 0:50:41Rightly or wrongly, some of them have taken absolutely no one

0:50:41 > 0:50:44in terms of refugees and others have taken up to 50 or 60,

0:50:44 > 0:50:46and they are in similar parts of the capital.

0:50:46 > 0:50:49You've got to be really careful about that, because councils

0:50:49 > 0:50:52are trying to do their best in different ways.

0:50:52 > 0:50:56Some are rehousing refugees through different schemes,

0:50:56 > 0:50:58or asylum seekers through different schemes, or people who need help

0:50:58 > 0:50:59through different schemes.

0:50:59 > 0:51:01Some are doing it through this scheme.

0:51:01 > 0:51:04Some are supporting community sponsorship more.

0:51:04 > 0:51:07You've got to be a little bit careful about trying to judge one

0:51:07 > 0:51:10council against another just on the sheer numbers, given

0:51:10 > 0:51:12particularly because the numbers are low, so everybody

0:51:12 > 0:51:15is doing their best, but at the moment the numbers are too low.

0:51:15 > 0:51:17Are they doing their best, or is there in some

0:51:17 > 0:51:18cases just not the will?

0:51:18 > 0:51:20I think it's quite hard to second-guess councils.

0:51:20 > 0:51:23I think there are councils who are trying very hard,

0:51:23 > 0:51:26but what you have to understand when you talk about the numbers

0:51:26 > 0:51:28in this problem is it's the framework of the way

0:51:28 > 0:51:29it's set up.

0:51:29 > 0:51:31Various government departments give some money to councils

0:51:31 > 0:51:35for refugees, right?

0:51:35 > 0:51:38What then happens is they have to fit that into a framework

0:51:38 > 0:51:43of benefit payments and other things.

0:51:43 > 0:51:46What sets the difficulty is that the cost of housing prices

0:51:46 > 0:51:49in London, it is very difficult to fit it within that framework,

0:51:49 > 0:51:51so that's why councils are struggling to say,

0:51:51 > 0:51:52we've got available places.

0:51:52 > 0:51:55Putting the housing issue aside, because yes, that seems to underline

0:51:55 > 0:51:58almost everything that goes on in the capital, why is London

0:51:58 > 0:52:00lagging so far behind the rest of the country?

0:52:00 > 0:52:02Because of housing prices.

0:52:02 > 0:52:04You can't say, "Put the housing price aside," housing prices

0:52:04 > 0:52:06are so much higher in London. That is a problem.

0:52:06 > 0:52:09Can I just say, the irony of this... Sorry.

0:52:09 > 0:52:12No, go on.

0:52:12 > 0:52:14The irony of this is that London is, in many ways, ideally

0:52:14 > 0:52:16placed to take people.

0:52:16 > 0:52:20Londoners want people to come to London, there

0:52:20 > 0:52:22are jobs and opportunities here, and opportunities for people to feel

0:52:22 > 0:52:24culturally comfortable in London, because it is such a diverse

0:52:24 > 0:52:26city, 300 languages.

0:52:26 > 0:52:28We heard that in the film.

0:52:28 > 0:52:31The problem is, we have this irony that one of the best places

0:52:31 > 0:52:33to settle people is one of the hardest places

0:52:33 > 0:52:35to settle people.

0:52:35 > 0:52:37We've got to find a way to get that mismatch solved.

0:52:37 > 0:52:40But then, Sarah, if it is a mismatch, and however

0:52:40 > 0:52:44welcoming London may be, is it realistic, and is it

0:52:44 > 0:52:48actually something desirable to want to house more people,

0:52:48 > 0:52:51refugees coming to this country, when there aren't the homes?

0:52:51 > 0:52:54I think the point about which scheme we are talking about is

0:52:54 > 0:52:55really important here.

0:52:55 > 0:52:59So Croydon, my borough, has more unaccompanied asylum

0:52:59 > 0:53:02seekers in it than any other borough by some margin, we have over

0:53:02 > 0:53:04400 that we care for...

0:53:04 > 0:53:07It's zero here on the list in terms of taking refugees.

0:53:07 > 0:53:12Under that scheme, because we have over 400

0:53:12 > 0:53:14unaccompanied asylum seekers... That's not my question.

0:53:14 > 0:53:16My question is, is it desirable?

0:53:16 > 0:53:18If Matthew has explained it in the way he has,

0:53:18 > 0:53:20there is a huge problem because of housing prices,

0:53:20 > 0:53:22so shouldn't people be looking beyond the capital

0:53:22 > 0:53:24to settle refugees?

0:53:24 > 0:53:27This is what I'm saying, there are over 400 children

0:53:27 > 0:53:29in Croydon being looked after the local authority

0:53:29 > 0:53:35and housed via the... funded by the Home Office,

0:53:35 > 0:53:40it's a different scheme.

0:53:40 > 0:53:42We come back to first principles, which is,

0:53:42 > 0:53:44what kind of country do we want to be?

0:53:44 > 0:53:46Do we want to welcome people fleeing war and violence,

0:53:46 > 0:53:49who are in fear of their lives? Yes, of course we do.

0:53:49 > 0:53:50But to the capital?

0:53:50 > 0:53:52Yes, is that separate from migration and economic migration?

0:53:52 > 0:53:59Completely. Two completely different things.

0:53:59 > 0:54:01We're talking about housing vulnerable people in exactly,

0:54:01 > 0:54:03how you say, in a City, which actually, wants

0:54:03 > 0:54:06to welcome them. Of course we must do what we can.

0:54:06 > 0:54:08Should London, taking this into account, be

0:54:08 > 0:54:09taking in more refugees?

0:54:09 > 0:54:10Yes, if it could.

0:54:10 > 0:54:13But let's just take Bromley, we've got 1400 people in temporary

0:54:13 > 0:54:15accommodation at the moment, 3000 on the waiting list

0:54:15 > 0:54:16for social housing.

0:54:16 > 0:54:18Another 3000 waiting to get onto the social housing list.

0:54:18 > 0:54:21The accommodation is not there. It is very expensive.

0:54:21 > 0:54:22What Matthew's just said is perfectly neutral

0:54:22 > 0:54:27and decent, and proper.

0:54:27 > 0:54:30He wants to take more people in London, but we just can't do it

0:54:30 > 0:54:33on the money we've got.

0:54:33 > 0:54:36And what would it do to community relations?

0:54:36 > 0:54:40We already hear, and quite often it is used as a bit of a stick

0:54:40 > 0:54:42to beat authorities with, that there are waiting list,

0:54:42 > 0:54:47that there are families waiting here for a long time,

0:54:47 > 0:54:49waiting for accommodation, and yet, the capital and various

0:54:49 > 0:54:51authorities are being asked to take more refugees.

0:54:51 > 0:54:53I think you're misunderstanding the scheme.

0:54:53 > 0:54:56The scheme is designed to ensure we put people in housing outside

0:54:56 > 0:55:00of and away from the normal scheme of housing people already here.

0:55:00 > 0:55:02We're not talking about putting people into the ordinary process.

0:55:02 > 0:55:04Will people understand that? That's got to be communicated.

0:55:04 > 0:55:07I'm not sure... That's your job, isn't it.

0:55:07 > 0:55:10You mean, you've got to find additional housing.

0:55:10 > 0:55:12Where are we going to get the additional housing?

0:55:12 > 0:55:13I'll tell you.

0:55:13 > 0:55:15The way it works is, we have community sponsorship

0:55:15 > 0:55:18and councils trying to find it.

0:55:18 > 0:55:20What they're trying to do is incentivise private landlords

0:55:20 > 0:55:23to offer accommodation, usually at a lower rent

0:55:23 > 0:55:26for a short period of time, to make sure the pieces can fit

0:55:26 > 0:55:28in the package I was talking about.

0:55:28 > 0:55:31Now, one of the key points we may come onto is community sponsorship.

0:55:31 > 0:55:33That's a new type of scheme.

0:55:33 > 0:55:35And is it working? Well, is it working?

0:55:35 > 0:55:38It's at a really new stage, brought in last year,

0:55:38 > 0:55:41we have just had funding to have somebody in City Hall working

0:55:41 > 0:55:48on this specific point.

0:55:48 > 0:55:52and six in London,

0:55:52 > 0:55:54We have only 12 organisations so far across the country

0:55:54 > 0:55:56and six in London,

0:55:56 > 0:55:59four are faith organisations, but it is a new way of trying

0:55:59 > 0:56:01to solve this problem by getting communities to come together to fund

0:56:01 > 0:56:03spaces, which wouldn't ordinarily be available.

0:56:03 > 0:56:06So what we need to do, if I may say so, is find a way

0:56:06 > 0:56:09to communicate that, so that people can be reassured,

0:56:09 > 0:56:10they're not bouncing people out of accommodation.

0:56:10 > 0:56:14That's good, because that would be very difficult

0:56:14 > 0:56:16for people to understand, who have been on a waiting

0:56:16 > 0:56:19list for three, four, five years. That is the problem.

0:56:19 > 0:56:22What you're going to say is, we them to find additional accommodation,

0:56:22 > 0:56:25but it's not available to you, but you're still on the waiting list

0:56:25 > 0:56:26for the normal accommodation?

0:56:26 > 0:56:29Would you like to see more of an open-door policy when it comes

0:56:29 > 0:56:31to welcoming refugees to the UK and to London?

0:56:31 > 0:56:34I think what we need to watch is what happens to all of the other

0:56:34 > 0:56:37asylum seekers who come not under this scheme as well, because I'm

0:56:37 > 0:56:41on the Home Affairs Select Committee and we did a report into looking

0:56:41 > 0:56:43at what happens to you if you come here.

0:56:43 > 0:56:45And what happens is, you're housed, in the main,

0:56:45 > 0:56:50in accommodation run by Serco or G4S, lots of cases of really

0:56:50 > 0:56:52appalling accommodation - cockroaches and damp,

0:56:52 > 0:56:58all kinds of horrible things.

0:56:58 > 0:57:00And you get food vouchers of £36 a week, and you sit

0:57:00 > 0:57:02there until your asylum claim has been heard.

0:57:02 > 0:57:05And because of the asylum system, it takes such a long time.

0:57:05 > 0:57:08The Home Office doesn't have the resources to do it.

0:57:08 > 0:57:09You can be there for two years.

0:57:09 > 0:57:12So would it be better to actually put some resources in housing

0:57:12 > 0:57:15or settling refugees in the region?

0:57:15 > 0:57:18We're going to welcome people from countries where there is war,

0:57:18 > 0:57:19and where people are fleeing.

0:57:19 > 0:57:22We have more people in the world now, fleeing and on the move,

0:57:22 > 0:57:24than at any time in the past.

0:57:24 > 0:57:27So we need to make sure that, when they come here,

0:57:27 > 0:57:30we give them a decent place to stay until the decision is made,

0:57:30 > 0:57:33and then they can either stay or they have to go back.

0:57:33 > 0:57:35Matthew, we've run out of time, but thank you very much.

0:57:35 > 0:57:36Thank you.

0:57:36 > 0:57:39The second tallest skyscraper in London after the Shard is due

0:57:39 > 0:57:40to be built in Croydon.

0:57:40 > 0:57:44The mayor has given it the green light, but should London be building

0:57:44 > 0:57:49more high-rise towers? Jerry Thomas reports.

0:57:49 > 0:57:53This is 1 Lansdowne Road, soon to be hitting the Croydon skyline.

0:57:53 > 0:57:57Other than the Shard, it will be the tallest

0:57:57 > 0:57:59building in London and, according to the developer's

0:57:59 > 0:58:02website, it will be visible all the way from Piccadilly to Brighton.

0:58:02 > 0:58:05It's a mixed use development.

0:58:05 > 0:58:10It will have residential, 794 units, plus over 35,000 square

0:58:10 > 0:58:13metres of office space, plus retail, a swimming pool and

0:58:13 > 0:58:17a public viewing gallery as well.

0:58:17 > 0:58:19This is what the site looks like today.

0:58:19 > 0:58:21Demolition is due to start next autumn, with the site

0:58:21 > 0:58:23completed by the mid-2020s.

0:58:23 > 0:58:29Views from all around the area will be transformed.

0:58:29 > 0:58:32But, of the 794 homes, only 20% will be classed as affordable,

0:58:32 > 0:58:35well below the Mayor's aim of 50% across London.

0:58:35 > 0:58:38It isn't acceptable.

0:58:38 > 0:58:41The Mayor said it wasn't acceptable in his first response

0:58:41 > 0:58:43to the planning application.

0:58:43 > 0:58:46What we've seen change since then is a really minor improvement

0:58:46 > 0:58:49in the level of some of the rents that are being offered

0:58:49 > 0:58:51in the 20% affordable homes.

0:58:51 > 0:58:55It's gone down from the old definition of affordable,

0:58:55 > 0:58:5780% of market rate, to the London living rent, which is

0:58:57 > 0:58:59a third of local wages.

0:58:59 > 0:59:01That genuinely is affordable, but it's a tiny, tiny number

0:59:01 > 0:59:02of flats in this development.

0:59:02 > 0:59:05I don't think the Mayor has pushed back enough on this.

0:59:05 > 0:59:09I think it's a poor planning decision.

0:59:09 > 0:59:11If you think of all the people living around it

0:59:11 > 0:59:13in Croydon whose need is proper social rents,

0:59:13 > 0:59:16council levels of rent. There's none of that in this tower.

0:59:16 > 0:59:19It's a monument to a bad planning decision, and they're going to have

0:59:19 > 0:59:21to look at it for many years to come.

0:59:21 > 0:59:23Along with affordability, many Londoners' top concern

0:59:23 > 0:59:25about housing, in light of the tragedy in Grenfell,

0:59:25 > 0:59:28is now fire safety.

0:59:28 > 0:59:30Will Londoners still be happy to live high up

0:59:30 > 0:59:33in the way they once were?

0:59:33 > 0:59:35Well, people, rightly so, are concerned about fire

0:59:35 > 0:59:37in tall buildings.

0:59:37 > 0:59:39The good thing about Lansdowne is it's a purpose-built

0:59:39 > 0:59:41residential building.

0:59:41 > 0:59:44It's over 30 metres, so it will be required

0:59:44 > 0:59:46to have sprinklers and, of course, before it gets anywhere

0:59:46 > 0:59:48close to construction, it will need to have met

0:59:48 > 0:59:50all building regulations and be thoroughly assessed

0:59:50 > 0:59:56by trained building surveyors.

0:59:56 > 0:59:58While 1 Lansdowne Road's height will make it unique

0:59:58 > 1:00:01and it may come to represent a change in the nature of housing

1:00:01 > 1:00:03across outer London.

1:00:03 > 1:00:05To deal with the housing crisis, the Mayor wants people to build

1:00:05 > 1:00:07higher and more densely.

1:00:07 > 1:00:10So the future of London's suburbs could well look like this.

1:00:10 > 1:00:11Sarah, it's in your constituency.

1:00:11 > 1:00:13Sian Berry from the Greens says it's a monument

1:00:13 > 1:00:15to a bad planning decision.

1:00:15 > 1:00:16Is she right?

1:00:16 > 1:00:19I think it's quite an interesting development.

1:00:19 > 1:00:22Whether it ever gets built, we'll wait and see but,

1:00:22 > 1:00:25if you look at the context of Croydon, it's a major transport

1:00:25 > 1:00:28hub, a major economic area, and it has been for many years,

1:00:28 > 1:00:30since medieval times, when people came and traded

1:00:30 > 1:00:33from the coast up to London, so it's going to be a major hub.

1:00:33 > 1:00:35It's got lots of tall buildings already...

1:00:35 > 1:00:36Are you a fan?

1:00:36 > 1:00:38I think it's fine.

1:00:38 > 1:00:41I don't think it's the most beautiful building I've ever seen,

1:00:41 > 1:00:44but I think it's got affordable housing at a level which, within

1:00:44 > 1:00:46the London plan, is acceptable.

1:00:46 > 1:00:48They had to go the extra mile...

1:00:48 > 1:00:50Only 20% of this landmark development, and Sadiq Khan

1:00:50 > 1:00:51said it should be 50%.

1:00:51 > 1:00:54When Boris Johnson was the Mayor, his average was 13%

1:00:54 > 1:00:56of new developments were affordable.

1:00:56 > 1:00:58So you are saying that is your benchmark then?

1:00:58 > 1:00:59It's higher.

1:00:59 > 1:01:03It's not as high as we would want it to be, but what they had to do

1:01:03 > 1:01:06was to prove in the planning meeting that they looked at what was

1:01:06 > 1:01:10possible, and they had to provide a lot more information to City Hall

1:01:10 > 1:01:12about what was possible and feasible for that element,

1:01:12 > 1:01:14and that was the level they got to.

1:01:14 > 1:01:17What they did manage to do via the Mayor was to make sure that

1:01:17 > 1:01:20more of those homes will be London living rent housing,

1:01:20 > 1:01:22which is a good thing.

1:01:22 > 1:01:26Bob, are you a fan of having more tall buildings, higher density?

1:01:26 > 1:01:30Is that the future for meeting London's housing shortage?

1:01:30 > 1:01:32I don't think we have a choice, do we?

1:01:32 > 1:01:34We're going to have to do that.

1:01:34 > 1:01:37The fact of the matter is this doesn't affect my constituency,

1:01:37 > 1:01:39apart from making the skyline from it of Croydon, which I think

1:01:39 > 1:01:41is rather pretty, actually.

1:01:41 > 1:01:43I like the...

1:01:43 > 1:01:44I agree.

1:01:44 > 1:01:46It looks like a really great place.

1:01:46 > 1:01:47Yeah.

1:01:47 > 1:01:50It looks, from a distance, from my constituency, a great place.

1:01:50 > 1:01:53But it's up to the people that live there, to be honest.

1:01:53 > 1:01:55I mean, if the people that live there want it,

1:01:55 > 1:01:59that is the crucial thing.

1:01:59 > 1:02:01Who's going to be able to afford to actually live there,

1:02:01 > 1:02:04if we are talking about 80% of market rent?

1:02:04 > 1:02:07A lot of it is offices anyway, and, you know, there's a swimming pool

1:02:07 > 1:02:10and a restaurant and other parts of the development,

1:02:10 > 1:02:13and 20% is affordable.

1:02:13 > 1:02:17You are absolutely right, we need to do a lot more to build

1:02:17 > 1:02:18more affordable housing, and that is absolutely

1:02:18 > 1:02:20Sadiq Khan's number one priority in planning decisions.

1:02:20 > 1:02:23I would like local authorities be able to borrow so they can build

1:02:23 > 1:02:28straight council housing, so we can provide the affordable

1:02:28 > 1:02:31housing people need.

1:02:31 > 1:02:33That's for another discussion, but that's all we have time for.

1:02:33 > 1:02:37Thank you to both of you.

1:02:47 > 1:02:49Welcome back.

1:02:49 > 1:02:52You'll often hear people on TV shows like this one in December

1:02:52 > 1:02:54reflecting on what a momentous year it's been in politics.

1:02:54 > 1:02:56Well, this time we really mean it...

1:02:56 > 1:02:57Again.

1:02:57 > 1:03:00We sent Ellie Price off for a gentle stroll through the events

1:03:00 > 1:03:02that have shaped 2017.

1:03:04 > 1:03:072017 was shaped by what happened when Theresa May went for a hike

1:03:07 > 1:03:11with her husband in April and came back with a jolly good idea.

1:03:11 > 1:03:15I have just chaired a meeting of the Cabinet where we agreed

1:03:15 > 1:03:18that the Government should call a general election to be

1:03:18 > 1:03:22held on the 8th of June.

1:03:22 > 1:03:23General election.

1:03:23 > 1:03:24You're joking.

1:03:24 > 1:03:27Not another one!

1:03:27 > 1:03:29The path to victory seemed so clear.

1:03:29 > 1:03:32Article 50 had been triggered, the Tories had won a by-election,

1:03:32 > 1:03:35and they made big gains across the country at

1:03:35 > 1:03:37the local elections, at the expense of Ukip,

1:03:37 > 1:03:41whose vote collapsed, and Labour.

1:03:41 > 1:03:44Yes, we have to go out there in the next four weeks

1:03:44 > 1:03:46and get our message out.

1:03:46 > 1:03:48Labour launched a manifesto that called for the renationalisation

1:03:48 > 1:03:51of the water companies and an end to tuition fees.

1:03:51 > 1:03:54This is a programme of hope.

1:03:54 > 1:03:59The Tory campaign, by contrast, is built on one word, fear.

1:03:59 > 1:04:03The Tories, meanwhile, unveiled a document that included

1:04:03 > 1:04:06scrapping free school lunches for children in England and a

1:04:06 > 1:04:09shake-up of the social care system.

1:04:09 > 1:04:11Let us all go forward together.

1:04:11 > 1:04:13APPLAUSE.

1:04:13 > 1:04:16But then the way forward wasn't so obvious, and Theresa May

1:04:16 > 1:04:19was forced into a U-turn on social care.

1:04:19 > 1:04:21Nothing has changed.

1:04:22 > 1:04:25Nothing has changed.

1:04:25 > 1:04:29Then she refused to take part in any head-to-head televised debates.

1:04:29 > 1:04:32The Prime Minister is not here tonight.

1:04:32 > 1:04:36She can't be bothered, so why should you?

1:04:36 > 1:04:39In fact, Bake Off is on BBC Two next.

1:04:39 > 1:04:43It wasn't Bake Off, but she did go on the TV and talk about the bins,

1:04:43 > 1:04:46and it all seemed a bit cringey.

1:04:46 > 1:04:51I get to decide when I take the bins out, not if I take them out.

1:04:51 > 1:04:52LAUGHTER.

1:04:52 > 1:04:54But, I mean...

1:04:54 > 1:04:56There's boy jobs and girl jobs, you see.

1:04:56 > 1:04:57Oh, really?

1:04:57 > 1:04:58What, boy jobs...

1:04:58 > 1:05:01And then there was that weird time the Prime Minister was asked

1:05:01 > 1:05:03what was the naughtiest thing she'd ever done as a child.

1:05:03 > 1:05:07She said it was to run through a field of wheat.

1:05:07 > 1:05:08Come on, Ed.

1:05:09 > 1:05:10Come on, Ed.

1:05:10 > 1:05:17# The hills are alive with the sound of music...#

1:05:17 > 1:05:21Meanwhile, Jeremy Corbyn was positively frolicking out

1:05:21 > 1:05:24on the campaign trail, greeted like a rock star

1:05:24 > 1:05:27at his well-attended rallies.

1:05:27 > 1:05:30The other party leaders also had their challenges.

1:05:30 > 1:05:32You won't say whether you think having gay sex is a sin.

1:05:32 > 1:05:36Winning those 56 seats will be a huge challenge

1:05:36 > 1:05:38for Nicola Sturgeon's party.

1:05:38 > 1:05:40Ruth Davidson has predicted that we've hit a peak

1:05:40 > 1:05:42and the only way is down.

1:05:42 > 1:05:44This party...

1:05:44 > 1:05:45Hello.

1:05:45 > 1:05:49And what we are saying is that the Conservatives

1:05:49 > 1:05:51are the largest party.

1:05:51 > 1:05:54Note they don't have an overall majority at this stage.

1:05:54 > 1:05:56Deal or no deal, Mrs Foster?

1:05:56 > 1:05:59The Conservatives lost 12 seats, creating a hung parliament -

1:05:59 > 1:06:02so, 18 days after the election, Theresa May did a deal

1:06:02 > 1:06:06with the Democratic Unionist Party's ten MPs from Northern Ireland.

1:06:06 > 1:06:10Meanwhile, Jeremy Corbyn was hanging out with his

1:06:10 > 1:06:12new mates at Glastonbury.

1:06:12 > 1:06:15CROWD: # Oh, Jeremy Corbyn...#

1:06:15 > 1:06:17With the election over, Brexit negotiations dominated the summer,

1:06:17 > 1:06:21and keeping control of her own party was an uphill struggle for the PM.

1:06:21 > 1:06:25That's why everyone was focused on her conference speech,

1:06:25 > 1:06:27including a prankster.

1:06:27 > 1:06:30Boris, job done there.

1:06:30 > 1:06:31An errant frog...

1:06:31 > 1:06:32SHE COUGHS.

1:06:32 > 1:06:34Excuse me.

1:06:34 > 1:06:35The deficit is back to pre-crisis levels...

1:06:35 > 1:06:38And then the scenery that fell down.

1:06:38 > 1:06:41The PM put on a brave face and was supported by her husband,

1:06:41 > 1:06:43and later her Cabinet, after some whispering

1:06:43 > 1:06:47about her leadership.

1:06:47 > 1:06:48By the end of October, the sexual harassment

1:06:48 > 1:06:50scandal hit Westminster.

1:06:50 > 1:06:52Various MPs were implicated, and so was a Cabinet

1:06:52 > 1:06:54minister, who stood down.

1:06:54 > 1:06:56Below the high standards...

1:06:56 > 1:06:59A week later, another Cabinet resignation.

1:06:59 > 1:07:00This time, Priti Patel, the International Development

1:07:00 > 1:07:03Secretary, fell on her sword over unauthorised meetings

1:07:03 > 1:07:05she'd had with Israeli officials while on holiday.

1:07:05 > 1:07:07Although there are plenty of 27 moments Theresa May

1:07:07 > 1:07:11would probably rather forget, this handshake just last week

1:07:11 > 1:07:16was a crucial breakthrough in the Brexit negotiations.

1:07:16 > 1:07:20The moment the EU accepted it was time to move on and talk

1:07:20 > 1:07:22about the future relationship.

1:07:22 > 1:07:26Of course, that doesn't mean negotiations next

1:07:26 > 1:07:29year will be any easier.

1:07:29 > 1:07:32But with everything going on this year, 2018 couldn't possibly be

1:07:32 > 1:07:41so frantic, could it?

1:07:41 > 1:07:44Plenty to talk about in terms of the big moments of last year and what's

1:07:44 > 1:07:49likely to come in the year ahead with our panel. I'll ask you first,

1:07:49 > 1:07:54what was your favourite moment?I think it must be that exit poll

1:07:54 > 1:07:59macro which we just saw again. The moment that was announced, you felt

1:07:59 > 1:08:04British politics changing in dramatic ways, as it has done, in my

1:08:04 > 1:08:09view. It's been the most significant political year in terms of change

1:08:09 > 1:08:13since 1979, even though the same Prime Minister is in place. In that

1:08:13 > 1:08:18second, you realise it was a myth that a figure to the left of Tony

1:08:18 > 1:08:21Blair would doom Labour to electoral oblivion, you realised that young

1:08:21 > 1:08:26people were starting to vote with profound policy implications, which

1:08:26 > 1:08:30we are already starting to see, and that will continue, and you

1:08:30 > 1:08:34recognised in that nanosecond that she had lost the mandate for Brexit,

1:08:34 > 1:08:39and a hung parliament would transform the politics of Brexit, as

1:08:39 > 1:08:43we were discussing earlier. It meant many other things as well, that exit

1:08:43 > 1:08:50poll. It will be a Brexit poll another time! So it was a huge

1:08:50 > 1:08:56moment, and I think some of it will -- some of us will never forget it.

1:08:56 > 1:09:02I can't believe we have crammed all of that into a year! I think that

1:09:02 > 1:09:06seminal week where Boris wrote his 4000 word thesis on Brexit, which

1:09:06 > 1:09:12anyone who is a Brexiteer reading it had Land Of Hope And Glory ringing

1:09:12 > 1:09:16in their ears, and how that may or may not have changed Theresa May's

1:09:16 > 1:09:22Florence speech. Downing Street very much road against the idea that the

1:09:22 > 1:09:25substance was changed, but I think there was an acceptance that his

1:09:25 > 1:09:30Union Jack flying tone was incorporated into that speech, and

1:09:30 > 1:09:34it became how she set out in Britainposition going forward.I was

1:09:34 > 1:09:41tempted to say the incredible walk that reason may did with Donald

1:09:41 > 1:09:45Trump way back in January where they held hands. What an extra rib

1:09:45 > 1:09:47Trump way back in January where they picture that was, for those of us

1:09:47 > 1:09:52out there to see what she had just done full -- an incredible picture.

1:09:52 > 1:09:56But I'm going to be cheeky and go for another one, the conference

1:09:56 > 1:10:01speech, Theresa May's. Yet again, for anybody in that room, it was the

1:10:01 > 1:10:07most excruciating 55 minutes of anyone's political career or

1:10:07 > 1:10:12journalistic career, but also a very powerful metaphor for her

1:10:12 > 1:10:16premiership. Things are falling apart at the seams. It isn't going

1:10:16 > 1:10:22at all how she planned. Yet she is still there.If we've learned

1:10:22 > 1:10:24anything, it's that we shouldn't make political predictions because

1:10:24 > 1:10:28we will be proved wrong, but I'm going to ask you for a couple for

1:10:28 > 1:10:32the year ahead. Will we have a trade deal by October?We won't, not least

1:10:32 > 1:10:39because the EU has said they aren't going to offer one at any stage,

1:10:39 > 1:10:42they are going to offer a political declaration, those are the words in

1:10:42 > 1:10:46the council document on Friday. We might get that.Will Theresa May

1:10:46 > 1:10:53still be Prime Minister?By Christmas? What good is this time

1:10:53 > 1:11:03next year. --this time next year.I think it depends what happens in

1:11:03 > 1:11:06October. She might be Prime Minister but will she has set out a timetable

1:11:06 > 1:11:14for a change in leadership? Possibly.And will the Cabinet look

1:11:14 > 1:11:18the same?Not entirely but I think the key players will be in place. I

1:11:18 > 1:11:21think it would be too disruptive to change them, but that is a tentative

1:11:21 > 1:11:27prediction. One -- what an extraordinarily bigger Theresa May

1:11:27 > 1:11:31is. She isn't an actor like most of our Prime ministers but it is like

1:11:31 > 1:11:37she is in a James Bond half of the time. It is a glorious contrast, a

1:11:37 > 1:11:40shy, dog-eared figure, and the theatrics will continue into next

1:11:40 > 1:11:46year, and I think she will be there. -- a shy, dogged figure.They have

1:11:46 > 1:11:51tried to build a campaign about a presidential style of leadership,

1:11:51 > 1:11:55and she was ill suited to that, and now she is using weakness as a

1:11:55 > 1:11:58strength when it comes to negotiating in Europe. She hasn't

1:11:58 > 1:12:04really shown her cards on Brexit, but it's probably to her advantage

1:12:04 > 1:12:08nobody really knows exactly what makes her tick, what is Willie going

1:12:08 > 1:12:15on inside her head. It could be nothing. Maybe it's entirely empty,

1:12:15 > 1:12:18so she can be beautifully pragmatic and plough her way through the

1:12:18 > 1:12:24waves. Inside the bubble, she loses votes, she does a terrible speech

1:12:24 > 1:12:29and we kick her but, in the country, the more and more people you speak

1:12:29 > 1:12:35to, and they say, good on her, she is getting the EU kicking her, her

1:12:35 > 1:12:41side kicking her, but she still carries on. The fact that she is

1:12:41 > 1:12:47indefatigable...Exhausting to say. It's remarkable, so she is proving

1:12:47 > 1:12:53Prime Minister of our times.Will Corbyn still be there?He will be,

1:12:53 > 1:12:59but does he want to be? What will happen in goodness only knows.

1:12:59 > 1:13:03Looking back at the rally, it's interesting how popular and idolised

1:13:03 > 1:13:06he was then in that campaigning mode, which she was far better

1:13:06 > 1:13:09suited to spend Theresa May, who wasn't surrounded by crowds and

1:13:09 > 1:13:13seemed to be standing on a podium somewhere with Tory banners behind

1:13:13 > 1:13:18her. I don't know. I think the shine is coming off Corbyn, and I think

1:13:18 > 1:13:24the more that Labour tie themselves in knots over Brexit, having Richard

1:13:24 > 1:13:28Burgon earlier saying, let's have the ECJ ruling us for ever and not

1:13:28 > 1:13:33cut immigration, that isn't going to play well with Labour Brexit photos.

1:13:33 > 1:13:35We will be back to discuss all this next year.

1:13:35 > 1:13:39That's all for today, and that's all for 2017.

1:13:39 > 1:13:43Until then, bye-bye.