0:00:41 > 0:00:42Morning, everyone.
0:00:42 > 0:00:44I'm Sarah Smith and this is the Sunday Politics -
0:00:44 > 0:00:46your inside briefing on all the big
0:00:46 > 0:00:48political stories happening in Westminster and beyond.
0:00:48 > 0:00:55Coming up on today's show.
0:00:55 > 0:01:09The decision to release serial sex attacker John Worboys...
0:01:09 > 0:01:11Does the Government now "look more like the country it represents"?
0:01:11 > 0:01:14After a tricky reshuffle, we speak to one of the new faces sitting
0:01:14 > 0:01:16around the Cabinet table - the immigration minister
0:01:16 > 0:01:17Caroline Nokes.
0:01:17 > 0:01:20Does the Government have a clearer idea about what our future
0:01:20 > 0:01:21relationship with the EU should look like?
0:01:21 > 0:01:24And for that matter, does the Labour Party
0:01:24 > 0:01:24have a settled view?
0:01:24 > 0:01:26The Shadow International Trade Secretary will be here.
0:01:26 > 0:01:29In London as the BBC's McMafia enthralls TV audiences, we look
0:01:29 > 0:01:35behind the headlines at global money-laundering in the capital.
0:01:39 > 0:01:41All that coming up in the programme.
0:01:41 > 0:01:43And sitting around our top table today, I'm joined
0:01:43 > 0:01:45by some familiar faces.
0:01:45 > 0:01:47We tried a reshuffle of our own but they simply refused
0:01:47 > 0:01:49to budge: Tom Newton Dunn, Julia Hartley-Brewer,
0:01:49 > 0:01:53and Steve Richards.
0:01:53 > 0:01:56Now, after a pretty bumpy 2017, Theresa May actually went
0:01:56 > 0:01:58in to the Christmas break in relatively good political health.
0:01:58 > 0:02:02So, what better way to kick off 2018 than by shaking up her top team
0:02:02 > 0:02:03and reasserting her authority?
0:02:03 > 0:02:11But as she found this week, things don't always go according to plan.
0:02:15 > 0:02:19If you're going to carry out major surgery on your Government, you need
0:02:19 > 0:02:26to be sure the prognosis is good.
0:02:26 > 0:02:28It was a picture of health to begin with, a fresh,
0:02:28 > 0:02:30new team at Party HQ, but before long, complications
0:02:30 > 0:02:35arose.
0:02:35 > 0:02:37Justine Greening, who's had a rocky time at Education, decided
0:02:37 > 0:02:39she'd had enough.
0:02:39 > 0:02:40She quit the Government rather than accept a
0:02:40 > 0:02:42sideways move.
0:02:42 > 0:02:44While Jeremy Hunt refused to budge from his job at
0:02:44 > 0:02:49Health.
0:02:49 > 0:02:51He even left his meeting having added social care to his job
0:02:51 > 0:02:55title.
0:02:55 > 0:02:58There was a fresher look among the junior ministerial ranks.
0:02:58 > 0:03:00But when the new Cabinet met on Tuesday morning, it looked...
0:03:00 > 0:03:03Well, very much like the old one.
0:03:03 > 0:03:05Normally loyal Conservative grandee Nicholas Soames asked, "Is that it?"
0:03:05 > 0:03:08The state of the NHS then caused more pain.
0:03:08 > 0:03:10Dozens of senior doctors wrote to the Prime Minister saying conditions
0:03:10 > 0:03:12in some hospitals were becoming intolerable.
0:03:12 > 0:03:16Patients were dying prematurely.
0:03:16 > 0:03:18We have now clearly reached the point where the NHS
0:03:18 > 0:03:20cannot meet the standards of care that we would,
0:03:20 > 0:03:27all of us in the NHS, ministers included, want to provide.
0:03:27 > 0:03:29At Prime Minister's Questions, the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn
0:03:29 > 0:03:31pressed on the bruise.
0:03:31 > 0:03:34We know the Prime Minister recognises there is a
0:03:34 > 0:03:36crisis in our NHS, because she wanted to sack
0:03:36 > 0:03:42the Health Secretary last week but was too weak to do it.
0:03:42 > 0:03:44Mr Corbyn announced his own reshuffle towards the end of the
0:03:44 > 0:03:46week, with a surprising return to the front
0:03:46 > 0:03:48bench for Clive Lewis, who
0:03:48 > 0:03:52has been cleared of sexual harassment claims.
0:03:52 > 0:03:57While two other Labour MPs, Kelvin Hopkins and
0:03:57 > 0:04:02Ivan Lewis, have been referred to an independent disciplinary
0:04:02 > 0:04:03panel over allegations of sexual misconduct.
0:04:03 > 0:04:05On Friday, US President Donald Trump raised the temperature, cancelling
0:04:05 > 0:04:09his visit to the UK next month to open the new American Embassy.
0:04:09 > 0:04:11Calling the decision to relocate the building to an off
0:04:11 > 0:04:15location is a bad deal.
0:04:15 > 0:04:18His friends on this side of the pond suspected
0:04:18 > 0:04:24there were other reasons for his decision.
0:04:24 > 0:04:26Just maybe, Sadiq Khan, Jeremy Corbyn in the Labour Party
0:04:26 > 0:04:30planning mass protests, maybe those optics he didn't like the look of.
0:04:30 > 0:04:33Nigel Farage also set pulses racing with this:
0:04:33 > 0:04:34I'm reaching the point of
0:04:34 > 0:04:36thinking that we should have a second referendum because...
0:04:36 > 0:04:37On what?
0:04:37 > 0:04:41On EU membership.
0:04:41 > 0:04:42The whole thing?!
0:04:42 > 0:04:43Of course, of course.
0:04:43 > 0:04:44The Conservatives hope focusing on the
0:04:44 > 0:04:46environment will bring the party back to health.
0:04:46 > 0:04:48The Prime Minister teamed up with her new eco-warrior
0:04:48 > 0:04:51Environment Secretary, Michael Gove, to crack down on the use of
0:04:51 > 0:04:52plastics.
0:04:52 > 0:04:55We must reduce the demand for plastic, reduce the number of
0:04:55 > 0:04:56plastics in circulation and improve our recycling rates.
0:04:56 > 0:04:58It all seems strangely reminiscent of someone who
0:04:58 > 0:05:02once said, vote blue, go green.
0:05:02 > 0:05:06In another tricky week that's left the
0:05:06 > 0:05:14PM looking a little green around the gills.
0:05:18 > 0:05:22Now, let's pick up on a story which broke overnight: the new
0:05:22 > 0:05:23Justice Secretary David Gauke is considering a judicial review
0:05:23 > 0:05:25of the decision to release the serial sex attacker
0:05:25 > 0:05:29John Worboys on parole.
0:05:29 > 0:05:32Earlier this month the Parole Board announced that he would be released
0:05:32 > 0:05:34under strict licence conditions.
0:05:34 > 0:05:37He was jailed in 2009 for a minimum of eight years for drugging
0:05:37 > 0:05:38and sexually assaulting 12 women.
0:05:38 > 0:05:41However, it's thought he may have carried out as many as 100 rapes
0:05:41 > 0:05:49and sexual assaults on women in London in the early 2000s.
0:05:49 > 0:05:54I will take this to the panel first. This is obviously a very emotive
0:05:54 > 0:05:59case, and people get very worked up about it, but the politics of the
0:05:59 > 0:06:03Justice Secretary, Tom, asking for a judicial review against the body
0:06:03 > 0:06:06which is really under the supervision of his own department,
0:06:06 > 0:06:11this gets a little odd.Justice Secretary criticises Justice
0:06:11 > 0:06:14Department shock. There is a whiff of panic in the Government over this
0:06:14 > 0:06:19now. I think David Gauke's decision is emblematic of that. For whatever
0:06:19 > 0:06:22reason, the Government have found themselves on the wrong side of
0:06:22 > 0:06:27public opinion on this. An appalling mass serial rapist is about to be
0:06:27 > 0:06:32let out of prison this week, having served less than ten years for
0:06:32 > 0:06:37crimes most of which he wasn't even prosecuted for. They have seven or
0:06:37 > 0:06:40eight days to do this judicial review, and David Gauke has only
0:06:40 > 0:06:45done it because he is under pressure from other Cabinet ministers. The
0:06:45 > 0:06:48entire Justice Department and justice policy has really been
0:06:48 > 0:06:53interested for up to seven years because the Tory Government really
0:06:53 > 0:06:59can't make up its mind between a liberal justice establishment is
0:06:59 > 0:07:03based on rehabilitation and less time in prison and the more
0:07:03 > 0:07:08traditional Tory authoritarian lock them up and throw the key away
0:07:08 > 0:07:13system, and the consequence is today's decision. You have had five
0:07:13 > 0:07:23Justice Secretary is, from the king of soft justice himself, Ken
0:07:23 > 0:07:27of soft justice himself, Ken Clarke, and now David Gauke, so perhaps it's
0:07:27 > 0:07:31no huge surprise that the system is now in a bit of a mess.If Tom is
0:07:31 > 0:07:34right that the Government are playing catch up on John Worboys
0:07:34 > 0:07:39because of the huge public outcry, is it nonetheless the right thing to
0:07:39 > 0:07:44do?It seems to me the parole board breached their own rules. The
0:07:44 > 0:07:47victims have a right to make representations. We know that some
0:07:47 > 0:07:53of the victims whose cases were brought, and again, he is not
0:07:53 > 0:08:01convicted as a serial rapist because those cases one brought to court, a
0:08:01 > 0:08:07decision made by Kia Starmer, then the Director of Public Prosecutions.
0:08:07 > 0:08:11The other fundamental issue is a lot of what Tom was saying, that the
0:08:11 > 0:08:15Tory Government is out of touch, as I think all of the establishment and
0:08:15 > 0:08:21party leaders are. Is this ridiculous nonsense that someone is
0:08:21 > 0:08:27released halfway through a sentence, if you are sentenced to ten years or
0:08:27 > 0:08:32whatever, you should be serving the full sentence, and maybe six months
0:08:32 > 0:08:35off for good behaviour, or better still, more years on for bad
0:08:35 > 0:08:39behaviour. I think the British public think the justice system is
0:08:39 > 0:08:43an absolute joke, and they think that because it is.You raise an
0:08:43 > 0:08:47interesting point about what the public care about versus what is
0:08:47 > 0:08:51debated at Westminster. We spent an enormous amount of last year talking
0:08:51 > 0:08:55about Brexit, to the exclusion of most other things. A few other
0:08:55 > 0:09:01issues have raised their heads this week, Steve. First and foremost, the
0:09:01 > 0:09:05NHS has been causing more than a few political problems for the
0:09:05 > 0:09:09Government.If Brexit wasn't swamping everything, this would be
0:09:09 > 0:09:14the overwhelming issue. Voters are much more concerned about this than
0:09:14 > 0:09:20anything else, with good cause. At some point, there will have to be a
0:09:20 > 0:09:27grown discussion about funding of the NHS and how we pay for it.
0:09:27 > 0:09:31Whether that will be possible in the current climate I doubt. But I don't
0:09:31 > 0:09:35think it's entirely impossible because I think the crisis will
0:09:35 > 0:09:44intensify. In a way, that has been overlooked, that 2017 election
0:09:44 > 0:09:46partly accepted miraculously in British politics that to get
0:09:46 > 0:09:50improvements in some services you have to pay for it. So, maybe there
0:09:50 > 0:09:55will be a grown-up debate, but don't hold your breath. In the meantime,
0:09:55 > 0:09:59it will be an issue that Theresa May will have to keep at least one eye
0:09:59 > 0:10:06on, as well as trying to negotiate the impossible with Brexit.At PMQs,
0:10:06 > 0:10:11the Prime Minister said the NHS was the best prepared it had ever been,
0:10:11 > 0:10:18and doctors were saying that patients were dying prematurely. In
0:10:18 > 0:10:25the short-term, political damage absolutely. The tanks are parked on
0:10:25 > 0:10:28Labour territory there. The general consensus in the country is not that
0:10:28 > 0:10:35they trust the Tories on the NHS, which is a big issue for them. A lot
0:10:35 > 0:10:39of the problems are down to the fact that we're getting older and living
0:10:39 > 0:10:42longer, and there are amazing treatments, operations and drugs
0:10:42 > 0:10:47that can keep us alive. We see it as a problem but it is a wonderful
0:10:47 > 0:10:50miracle of modern science and medicine and we should be grateful
0:10:50 > 0:10:57for such problems.The big news was that we were going to get a
0:10:57 > 0:10:59Government that looked more like the rest of the country in the
0:10:59 > 0:11:04reshuffle. It turned out not to be quite as dramatic as some of us
0:11:04 > 0:11:10expected. Was it a Government fail? Depends how you define fail. It has
0:11:10 > 0:11:13taken a few days for the penny to drop, though I had my suspicions on
0:11:13 > 0:11:19the night when some of the 20 15th intake got no promotions at all. It
0:11:19 > 0:11:27was a tell-tale sign. Was it a success in that it stored to the top
0:11:27 > 0:11:35of the buildings? Not really, she just rearranged the deckchairs on
0:11:35 > 0:11:47the Titanic. Caroline Noakes was attending Cabinet rather than being
0:11:47 > 0:11:51a full cabinet minister, but the Theresa May managed to fend off the
0:11:51 > 0:11:54vultures coming for her by absolutely wilfully, it now appears,
0:11:54 > 0:12:00failing to put key rivals into key positions, people like Rory Stewart,
0:12:00 > 0:12:12Dominic Raj, some of the 2015ers? It was a public fail but digging in
0:12:12 > 0:12:14privately.
0:12:14 > 0:12:16Well, listening to all that is my first guest, Caroline Nokes.
0:12:16 > 0:12:19She was promoted to immigration minister in the reshuffle this
0:12:19 > 0:12:23week and, in that role, now attends Cabinet.
0:12:24 > 0:12:29Congratulations on the new job. You are presumably part of the making
0:12:29 > 0:12:36the Government look more like the country. Did the Prime Minister
0:12:36 > 0:12:39achieve that?I think she did. Look at the whip's offers, where there
0:12:39 > 0:12:43are more women than ever before. I remember coming in in 2010 and
0:12:43 > 0:12:49looking at a wet's office that was really mail.Why can't we have 50-50
0:12:49 > 0:12:53women in the Cabinet?We are heading in the right direction, there are
0:12:53 > 0:13:00two more women in the Cabinet.Even the Scottish Government has a policy
0:13:00 > 0:13:06of 50-50 in the Cabinet - surely it's possible?We started from a
0:13:06 > 0:13:11very low base of women, even elected. I think we're doing a
0:13:11 > 0:13:14fantastic job of encouraging more women to come forward, and from more
0:13:14 > 0:13:19diverse backgrounds. It is a work in progress but we are headed in the
0:13:19 > 0:13:26right direction.
0:13:27 > 0:13:30right direction. People like Kerry bad not, who went to the same
0:13:30 > 0:13:34university as I did, the University of Sussex, hardly a breeding ground
0:13:34 > 0:13:45for Tory politicians.In the Government, there are 3% non-white
0:13:45 > 0:13:49people - not very representative?We have done a good job of attracting
0:13:49 > 0:13:52more diverse people to come and stand the rise in the Government.
0:13:52 > 0:14:02Our messages, -- our message is, we're working hard to make sure that
0:14:02 > 0:14:05those bright, young women from diverse backgrounds have a chance.
0:14:05 > 0:14:11You know, it's a process, isn't it? We are all climbing up the ladder. I
0:14:11 > 0:14:16think the Cabinet looks better than it did. I have always advocated more
0:14:16 > 0:14:20women in Parliament, and the last debate I did was about getting more
0:14:20 > 0:14:24women to stand in politics, and that really matters.The big news this
0:14:24 > 0:14:29morning is the idea that the Justice Secretary may take a judicial review
0:14:29 > 0:14:33against the release of John Worboys. What is your view on that? Should do
0:14:33 > 0:14:37just this minute himself be taking judicial review is against this kind
0:14:37 > 0:14:41of decision?We will look at the victims of Worboys and we want them
0:14:41 > 0:14:45to get the support they need and to see that justice is being done. It
0:14:45 > 0:14:49is absolutely right that David Gauke is looking at a judicial review.
0:14:49 > 0:14:52None of us feel happy with the parole board decision. This is a man
0:14:52 > 0:14:59who served less than ten years, and it's a horrific number of victims.
0:14:59 > 0:15:03We can't see the parole board's decision or the reasoning for it.
0:15:03 > 0:15:06The Government could change that at a stroke and allow them to publish
0:15:06 > 0:15:11it. Should they?The Justice Secretary is reviewing the process,
0:15:11 > 0:15:15which is important. We want people to have confidence. Our justice
0:15:15 > 0:15:19system is a very old and proud one. Let's not undermine it. Let's make
0:15:19 > 0:15:24sure we get the right decisions in place.Lets get onto your own brief,
0:15:24 > 0:15:30your new brief on immigration. It means you inherit the target of
0:15:30 > 0:15:36reducing net migration to the tens of thousands. The last five
0:15:36 > 0:15:42ministers have failed, will you do it?
0:15:42 > 0:15:42The last it?
0:15:42 > 0:15:43The last five it?
0:15:43 > 0:15:43The last five ministers it?
0:15:43 > 0:15:43The last five ministers have it?
0:15:43 > 0:15:44The last five ministers have seen it?
0:15:44 > 0:15:46The last five ministers have seen the trajectory heading down, the
0:15:46 > 0:15:51last figures we saw in the summer show it dropped significantly.It
0:15:51 > 0:15:56dropped slightly, 14,000 lower than when you came to power in 2010,
0:15:56 > 0:16:01overall net migration at 240 4000. We want to make sure this is a
0:16:01 > 0:16:04brittle open for business, that the brightest and best can come here to
0:16:04 > 0:16:10work and study. We are listening to the universities and to business via
0:16:10 > 0:16:13the immigration advisory committee...So if we are open to
0:16:13 > 0:16:16business and the brightest and best come here why have this target of
0:16:16 > 0:16:20reducing net migration to less than 100,000? Lots of Cabinet ministers
0:16:20 > 0:16:24would like to get rid of it. You could have lifted and the 2017
0:16:24 > 0:16:29manifesto and got rid of quite a headache.We had a referendum in
0:16:29 > 0:16:342016 which sent a clear message that people want that target to remain,
0:16:34 > 0:16:37they want to see as reducing immigration to sustainable levels
0:16:37 > 0:16:42and we are doing just that. It is in the manifesto so that is the
0:16:42 > 0:16:46direction of travel.Immigration from outside the EU, you claimed
0:16:46 > 0:16:51that once we leave everything will change with freedom of movement, but
0:16:51 > 0:16:56net migration from outside the EU which you have complete control over
0:16:56 > 0:16:59now, it's over 100,000 in and of itself. Why hasn't that been tackled
0:16:59 > 0:17:05in the seven years that this has now been a target?We are attacking it,
0:17:05 > 0:17:08and we are doing this I have a banking measures you have heard
0:17:08 > 0:17:11about this week, working to make sure that those with bank accounts
0:17:11 > 0:17:17and are not here legally have those Fresnel cursive necessary, that is
0:17:17 > 0:17:20important, we have a raft of measures but the current Home
0:17:20 > 0:17:23Secretary and the previous one have been clear on this, we will get
0:17:23 > 0:17:28these numbers down and do it in a manageable and sustained way.It is
0:17:28 > 0:17:35not what business one. The Tory mayor Andy Street says the target
0:17:35 > 0:17:39should be more like 150,000 so businesses can attract people with
0:17:39 > 0:17:43the skills they need and George Osborne says this is economic and
0:17:43 > 0:17:47made illiterate because we need higher migration and that --
0:17:47 > 0:17:49economically illiterate.Which is why we are listening to the
0:17:49 > 0:17:53committee which will report in September which will give a solid
0:17:53 > 0:17:57expert economist's view on what migration levels should be. But it
0:17:57 > 0:18:01was in the manifesto, we are determined to head in that direction
0:18:01 > 0:18:05and bring immigration down to a sustainable level.If you're
0:18:05 > 0:18:09immigration advisor comes to you and says somebody like Andy Street is
0:18:09 > 0:18:15right we need around 150,000 coming, will you change it? Because this was
0:18:15 > 0:18:21a manifesto promise to get it down to under 110,000 a year, so what
0:18:21 > 0:18:25will that looked like if you have disabled we didn't get it right.Am
0:18:25 > 0:18:31not going to prejudge.I and asking what you will do with their view
0:18:31 > 0:18:34because you are stuck with this promise of reducing immigration to
0:18:34 > 0:18:38tens of thousands, there's not much you can do if they oppose that.You
0:18:38 > 0:18:42are telling someone who has been in the job less than a week that she
0:18:42 > 0:18:47should make a decision on the hoof in a TV studio! Not a chance. What I
0:18:47 > 0:18:51need to do is listen to the experts and come up with the direction of
0:18:51 > 0:18:55travel that satisfies those who voted Believe in the referendum,
0:18:55 > 0:19:00that satisfies businesses, like the brilliant Russell group University
0:19:00 > 0:19:03and the one in Southampton on the edge of my constituency can still
0:19:03 > 0:19:08attract the best students. This is a really difficult complicated area.
0:19:08 > 0:19:12He mentioned the need to attract the brightest students. While other
0:19:12 > 0:19:16numbers of students coming to Britain to study included in the net
0:19:16 > 0:19:19migration figures? You could help yourselves quickly by taking them
0:19:19 > 0:19:24out of it. Just about every Cabinet member wants them removed from
0:19:24 > 0:19:28official figures, why are they there?The O M as determinate
0:19:28 > 0:19:31students should be included because they are here for more than 12
0:19:31 > 0:19:38months. We must make sure we have the public services that support
0:19:38 > 0:19:41them. Many of them go home after their study as they should but it is
0:19:41 > 0:19:45important that we work with the immigration advisory committee to
0:19:45 > 0:19:50get the right answers.You are happy about students being included in the
0:19:50 > 0:19:55migration figures?And happy we've got 24% more coming to our
0:19:55 > 0:19:59universities than we had in 2010. I'm happy that we are attracting a
0:19:59 > 0:20:04great calibre of student here, I'm equally happy that our former
0:20:04 > 0:20:07feminists are cracked down on bogus colleges and close them because we
0:20:07 > 0:20:12want bright students to come here and in the -- that our former Prime
0:20:12 > 0:20:17Minister cracked down on bogus colleges and closed them.Button
0:20:17 > 0:20:21back to the panel, Steve Camille can't envy the new Immigration
0:20:21 > 0:20:26Minister being tasked with reducing immigration to a level that no other
0:20:26 > 0:20:31Immigration Minister has been able to achieve.I don't envy you, I
0:20:31 > 0:20:35don't know your Private view but I do note that most Cabinet ministers
0:20:35 > 0:20:39don't want student numbers to be part of the total figure and Theresa
0:20:39 > 0:20:45May alone is still pressing this. I've just been doing a series about
0:20:45 > 0:20:50a David Cameron. He made a series of targets which were never met, as you
0:20:50 > 0:20:55said in the interview. Good luck with that. Lots of people I meet now
0:20:55 > 0:21:01who were in favour of Brexit, like farmers, pleading, as you will know,
0:21:01 > 0:21:04for cheap Labour from Eastern Europe to continue. They don't want to fill
0:21:04 > 0:21:15in loads more forms to get them. So there's a lot of talk
0:21:15 > 0:21:18there's a lot of talk about Nimby free movement and you have a tough
0:21:18 > 0:21:24brief.Julia, should net immigration be reduced to tens of thousands, is
0:21:24 > 0:21:28it important to the public?I find it bizarre they asked to a target
0:21:28 > 0:21:32they've never done anything to reach, certainly the immigration
0:21:32 > 0:21:35levels that they were able to control under the coalition and
0:21:35 > 0:21:40David Cameron on his own, the numbers can't be controlled
0:21:40 > 0:21:44completely, they never even came close, it was more than double,
0:21:44 > 0:21:49about 250,000. I find this row about students strange. If you live in the
0:21:49 > 0:21:52country for three or four years you need somewhere to live, you'll be
0:21:52 > 0:21:57getting buses and trains, might need to go to the hospital, is that the
0:21:57 > 0:22:00idea that these people don't exist because they are not here
0:22:00 > 0:22:05permanently? And some of them do stay. It's ridiculous. We need a
0:22:05 > 0:22:11sensible debate. Brexit wasn't about ending immigration. It was about us.
0:22:11 > 0:22:14Like virtually every other country in the world choosing who gets to
0:22:14 > 0:22:18come here. If you are qualified and have a skill we need we would love
0:22:18 > 0:22:24to have you, come on in, the water is lovely! But if we just want cheap
0:22:24 > 0:22:29Labour subsidised by the taxpayer with a housing benefit, to do jobs
0:22:29 > 0:22:32not paid enough, then I don't think we should. When it comes to farmers
0:22:32 > 0:22:39we should pay more for...Julia has given quite a good explanation of
0:22:39 > 0:22:43why the target was set up and should probably stay because if there is no
0:22:43 > 0:22:47target, then cheap Labour will continue to flow in because it's the
0:22:47 > 0:22:52easiest thing for business to do. If you are limited in who you can bring
0:22:52 > 0:22:56in new might turn to the indigenous British population and start hiring
0:22:56 > 0:23:01them to do decent jobs they are perfectly capable of doing.The
0:23:01 > 0:23:05panel will be staying with us throughout the programme. Thank you
0:23:05 > 0:23:09to Caroline Nokes, the Immigration Minister, for coming in.
0:23:09 > 0:23:12Now with all the other stuff that's been going on this week,
0:23:12 > 0:23:14you might be concerned we'd forgotten about the small
0:23:14 > 0:23:15matter of Brexit.
0:23:15 > 0:23:17But don't worry, it's still very much on the agenda.
0:23:17 > 0:23:20Having sealed a deal on the divorce talks,
0:23:20 > 0:23:22the focus is now shifting to the future relationship.
0:23:22 > 0:23:24The EU says we can only have an 'off-the-shelf' model,
0:23:24 > 0:23:26like the deals with Norway or Canada; but the UK Government
0:23:26 > 0:23:31says we can be far more ambitious, as Elizabeth Glinka reports.
0:23:31 > 0:23:39# Do you have the time # To listen to me whine?#.
0:23:42 > 0:23:44In her Florence speech, Theresa May made it
0:23:44 > 0:23:46clear that when it comes to
0:23:46 > 0:23:48trade negotiations with the EU, the UK isn't looking for any
0:23:48 > 0:23:50off-the-shelf kind of deal.
0:23:50 > 0:23:54It wants something special and bespoke.
0:23:54 > 0:23:55I'm optimistic about what we can achieve
0:23:55 > 0:23:59by finding a creative solution to a new economic relationship that
0:23:59 > 0:24:05can support prosperity for all our peoples.
0:24:05 > 0:24:07Before Christmas, the senior official in charge of Brexit
0:24:07 > 0:24:09told the Cabinet that when it comes to that
0:24:09 > 0:24:13creative solution, they
0:24:13 > 0:24:15should start thinking in terms of three baskets, what some people
0:24:15 > 0:24:16are calling managed divergence.
0:24:16 > 0:24:18The Institute for Government has been
0:24:18 > 0:24:22looking at what it means.
0:24:22 > 0:24:24Three baskets corresponds to the three areas
0:24:24 > 0:24:26that Theresa May spoke about in her Florence speech.
0:24:26 > 0:24:28We have full alignment, where we will continue to
0:24:28 > 0:24:31meet the same outcomes in the same way as we do now.
0:24:31 > 0:24:32Regulatory equivalence is where we will
0:24:32 > 0:24:34continue to meet the same outcomes as the EU
0:24:34 > 0:24:36but might go about it in a
0:24:36 > 0:24:38slightly different way.
0:24:38 > 0:24:42And then the final basket around divergence,
0:24:42 > 0:24:45where we will go about things in a different way and may choose
0:24:45 > 0:24:46to take completely different outcomes at the
0:24:46 > 0:24:48end of it.
0:24:48 > 0:24:51OK, so if we were to look at particular industries, say
0:24:51 > 0:24:53something like aviation, maybe workers' rights, we might put them
0:24:53 > 0:24:58in this basket because we are saying not much is going to change.
0:24:58 > 0:24:59It would be very difficult to put
0:24:59 > 0:25:02whole industries and whole sectors in specific baskets.
0:25:02 > 0:25:07If you take agriculture, for example, state aid
0:25:07 > 0:25:12and how much overall we can subsidise our farmers may well sit
0:25:12 > 0:25:15in full alignment, whereas issues about agricultural and environmental
0:25:15 > 0:25:17protection standards, we could continue to
0:25:17 > 0:25:18meet the same goals but
0:25:18 > 0:25:23by different means, and they can sit in the middle basket.
0:25:23 > 0:25:26Whereas, actually, exactly what we subsidise
0:25:26 > 0:25:29our farmers for could be completely up to the UK and sit in the
0:25:29 > 0:25:30divergent basket.
0:25:30 > 0:25:33So it would be very difficult to put single sectors
0:25:33 > 0:25:34in single baskets.
0:25:34 > 0:25:37If the UK is looking for a high degree of access
0:25:37 > 0:25:39to the single market, then the EU will expect
0:25:39 > 0:25:43lots of things ending up in the full alignment basket,
0:25:43 > 0:25:45whereas the UK will probably want to try and pull as much as possible
0:25:45 > 0:25:49into the regulatory equivalence basket.
0:25:49 > 0:25:53Of course, the point of all this is is to remind the EU that
0:25:53 > 0:25:56when it comes to these negotiations, the UK is in a unique position
0:25:56 > 0:26:00because currently we are completely in sync.
0:26:00 > 0:26:02It's in the interests of Britain and the EU to get on
0:26:02 > 0:26:09together.
0:26:09 > 0:26:11People are thinking that it's a binary thing, we are either
0:26:11 > 0:26:15in the EU or we're out, that it's night and day, but it isn't.
0:26:15 > 0:26:16The point about managed divergence is
0:26:16 > 0:26:18that it does give us much more flexibility.
0:26:18 > 0:26:21We can decide for ourselves which bits we want to keep
0:26:21 > 0:26:23and which bits we want to amend or get rid of.
0:26:23 > 0:26:24And I think...
0:26:24 > 0:26:26I think that's a huge opportunity.
0:26:26 > 0:26:28Philip Hammond and David Davies have been
0:26:28 > 0:26:30on a charm offensive in Germany this week,
0:26:30 > 0:26:32so just how are those very British baskets going down in
0:26:32 > 0:26:33Brussels?
0:26:33 > 0:26:36There is a concern that the UK will take a shopping basket,
0:26:36 > 0:26:39pick off the elements of the major trade agreements the EU has secured
0:26:39 > 0:26:41with third countries, take all those together.
0:26:41 > 0:26:44It gets the UK very close to full membership of the single
0:26:44 > 0:26:46market without any of the obligations, so I think
0:26:46 > 0:26:51they view managed divergence as another way in
0:26:51 > 0:26:55which the UK either hopes to cherry pick or have its cake and eat it.
0:26:55 > 0:26:57All member states will agree that they can't
0:26:57 > 0:26:59set a precedent with the
0:26:59 > 0:27:01UK that then sets internal challenges for themselves over the
0:27:01 > 0:27:03medium to longer term.
0:27:03 > 0:27:10Now, what goes into these baskets remains a
0:27:10 > 0:27:13bit of a mystery, but of course, there are deadlines because the next
0:27:13 > 0:27:15round of talks is due to get under way
0:27:15 > 0:27:16this spring.
0:27:16 > 0:27:19And you can find more Brexit analysis
0:27:19 > 0:27:23and explanation on the BBC website, at bbc.co.uk/Brexit.
0:27:23 > 0:27:25With me now is the Shadow International Trade
0:27:25 > 0:27:29Secretary, Barry Gardiner.
0:27:29 > 0:27:36Welcome to the programme, thank you for coming back. We were learning
0:27:36 > 0:27:39about the different baskets, full alignment, regulatory alignment.
0:27:39 > 0:27:43Labour say you want to give all the benefits and the single market so
0:27:43 > 0:27:49presumably want to stay as much in alignment as we do already?What
0:27:49 > 0:27:52we've said is that the government have said we could have all the
0:27:52 > 0:27:58benefits and we will hold them to that.To do that, we must keep most
0:27:58 > 0:28:04of what we can in the full alignment basket?We want to make sure we get
0:28:04 > 0:28:09as much of the benefits as we currently have once we have left the
0:28:09 > 0:28:14EU.You can't do that and diverged. Absolutely. That's the point.
0:28:14 > 0:28:18Diverges from that, whether through a trade deal with another country or
0:28:18 > 0:28:24whether it is simply because we want to deregulate our standards in the
0:28:24 > 0:28:28UK is going to cause a problem with maintaining the sort of trade we
0:28:28 > 0:28:32have with Europe. It's going to cause that economic bond. But we
0:28:32 > 0:28:36want to make sure we have a Brexit that is for jobs, for the economy
0:28:36 > 0:28:40and that's why we see the benefits of the single market, the benefits
0:28:40 > 0:28:45of the customs union, and swipe we said we wouldn't rule is off the
0:28:45 > 0:28:49table. Whereas the government precisely said it would. And that is
0:28:49 > 0:28:51the red lines that Theresa May put in place that are now causing her
0:28:51 > 0:28:57all these other problems.They've caused a few problems in policy for
0:28:57 > 0:29:00Labour as well because the closer you want to stay to single market
0:29:00 > 0:29:03rules, if we've loved the single market because that is government
0:29:03 > 0:29:09policy, more alignment would have -- if we've left. That is us accepting
0:29:09 > 0:29:14rules we had no say in making, a state you have described as being a
0:29:14 > 0:29:19vassal state.These other uses we really have to resolve. Because you
0:29:19 > 0:29:23are right, once we leave the EU that means we are not a member of the
0:29:23 > 0:29:28single market. It doesn't mean we can't trade into the single market,
0:29:28 > 0:29:33of course we can. We can do that in the same way that Norway does. But
0:29:33 > 0:29:36our economy is very different from that of Norway. And what we need to
0:29:36 > 0:29:41be sure about is when we are making our rules in this country we are
0:29:41 > 0:29:45doing it as close as possible to maintain the trade and the economic
0:29:45 > 0:29:49benefits we get in the European Union.There have been reports this
0:29:49 > 0:29:53week that Labour is working on a policy that would involve staying in
0:29:53 > 0:29:59the customs union. The Robert Peston programme on ITV...That could not
0:29:59 > 0:30:04be the case. I'm sorry to correct you on a technicality. But once you
0:30:04 > 0:30:08leave the EU you leave the treaties and it is the treaties that create
0:30:08 > 0:30:17the customs union. So we could not be a member of the customs union.
0:30:17 > 0:30:21You could be remember of a customs union, which is what Jeremy Corbyn
0:30:21 > 0:30:26was talking about on TV this morning.He was talking about the
0:30:26 > 0:30:29transition period immediately after leaving the EU. That has been our
0:30:29 > 0:30:34position for many months. We were the ones that said, in that
0:30:34 > 0:30:37transitional period, we want the status quo. We want to maintain
0:30:37 > 0:30:42things that are... We want to maintain a customs union and single
0:30:42 > 0:30:47market during that transition.Let's talk about the future after the
0:30:47 > 0:30:54transition period. Let's look at what you said you thought were the
0:30:54 > 0:30:59consequences.
0:31:03 > 0:31:08consequences. Do you still agree with that?I was specifically
0:31:08 > 0:31:12referring to, and if you go back on that quote a little bit, you will
0:31:12 > 0:31:16find we were talking about the turkey situation, which was a
0:31:16 > 0:31:20customs union agreement with the EU. That would be a very bad end point
0:31:20 > 0:31:24for us, because it would mean that the European Union ended up doing
0:31:24 > 0:31:27all the negotiations for trade for the UK. We would have to open our
0:31:27 > 0:31:33markets to any other company in -- any other country they made an
0:31:33 > 0:31:37agreement with. But that country would not have to liberalise its
0:31:37 > 0:31:42markets and open itself up to our goods and services.The common
0:31:42 > 0:31:45commercial policy is what governs all of this and binds us in with
0:31:45 > 0:31:48these trade treaties. The UK Government say they want to leave
0:31:48 > 0:31:56that. Is that the Labour position? We will be...Would you like to join
0:31:56 > 0:32:00something similar once we are no longer members of the EU?I already
0:32:00 > 0:32:04said, we believe that the benefits of what we currently have should be
0:32:04 > 0:32:07maintained as much as possible, and that means that whilst we cannot
0:32:07 > 0:32:13stay in the customs union, we should not have a turkey style customs
0:32:13 > 0:32:16union agreement, because that would be an asymmetrical relationship with
0:32:16 > 0:32:21any trading partner. What we do see as a possibility, and it is what we
0:32:21 > 0:32:33have not ruled out, which is to have a new customs union with the
0:32:33 > 0:32:36European Union, and that is something very interesting wave
0:32:36 > 0:32:41which in paragraph 31 of the cross-border trade taxation bill
0:32:41 > 0:32:45which came in on Monday from the Government, and which we debated
0:32:45 > 0:32:50them, they have actually put provision for that, a new customs
0:32:50 > 0:32:54union, where we would be an equal member.But you cannot possibly
0:32:54 > 0:32:58believe that you can have the benefits of being in a reformed
0:32:58 > 0:33:01customs union relationship with the EU and still have total freedom to
0:33:01 > 0:33:05make new trade deals. You have said you don't want anything which
0:33:05 > 0:33:09precludes us from making independent trade agreements with some of our
0:33:09 > 0:33:14bigger partners.Let's be clear about the nexus of problems we are
0:33:14 > 0:33:21trying to solve the run work our way through. You have, within the
0:33:21 > 0:33:25referendum, a clarity that people were voting for certain political
0:33:25 > 0:33:29issues, whether that was in terms of immigration, regaining sovereignty,
0:33:29 > 0:33:32or simply not paying money into Europe. All of these were things
0:33:32 > 0:33:38people thought they were voting for. If you were to be in a relationship
0:33:38 > 0:33:43in which some of those continued to be the case, where we were rule
0:33:43 > 0:33:52takers and not rule setters, as Norway is at the moment, and they
0:33:52 > 0:33:55are told they have no right to decide what the rules are going to
0:33:55 > 0:33:58be, that is a political problem which many people in this country
0:33:58 > 0:34:04would feel, what was the referendum all about if we don't achieve that?
0:34:04 > 0:34:09Let's...Just let me... I don't think it's clear, the problems we
0:34:09 > 0:34:14are trying to solve. We want to maintain a maximum economic benefit,
0:34:14 > 0:34:18to get the economic benefit of the jobs that we currently get from the
0:34:18 > 0:34:23trading relationship we have in a customs union and in a single market
0:34:23 > 0:34:27with the European Union. But to do that respecting the referendum will
0:34:27 > 0:34:31of the people for those political objectives.We understand that
0:34:31 > 0:34:39point.Labour has to bring back the 42 purse -- the 52% under 48%.We
0:34:39 > 0:34:45understand need to move you on to something else. We have heard the
0:34:45 > 0:34:50new Tory chairman Brandon Lewis say today that if any... He wants new
0:34:50 > 0:34:54Tory candidates to sign up to a respect pledge that they will
0:34:54 > 0:34:57conduct themselves on Twitter and in what they say in a respectful way,
0:34:57 > 0:35:03otherwise they will be removed as candidates.Of course, that's right.
0:35:03 > 0:35:07Jeremy Corbyn said that Labour should do it too. It raises
0:35:07 > 0:35:12questions about some Labour MPs. Jarrod O'Mara, for example, who has
0:35:12 > 0:35:16had the whip suspended.An investigation is being conducted, as
0:35:16 > 0:35:22is appropriate, within all the procedures of our party. Absolutely
0:35:22 > 0:35:26right, suspended.Because of remarks he made about women and homophobic
0:35:26 > 0:35:29comments. Then you look at the Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell,
0:35:29 > 0:35:34against whom no action has been taken, and he has said a number of
0:35:34 > 0:35:40things, but one of them which has been heavily criticised is that he
0:35:40 > 0:35:45wanted... Well, he agreed with people who wanted to see Esther
0:35:45 > 0:35:48McVeigh lynched. We have the audio of this. Let's listen and then we
0:35:48 > 0:36:00will ask you about it.I was up in Liverpool a fortnight ago...
0:36:21 > 0:36:26And obviously, he used a word that we won't be saying on TV, but is
0:36:26 > 0:36:32that respectful language?It is not language I would have used. Earlier
0:36:32 > 0:36:38today, you have been quoting remarks that were made by the President of
0:36:38 > 0:36:43the United States which were deeply offensive and unacceptable.Yes.
0:36:43 > 0:36:49Hang on.But this is about the Labour Party...And you quoted. The
0:36:49 > 0:36:53point I am making is that he was quoting what someone else was
0:36:53 > 0:36:58saying, and I would not have chosen to do that.He was clearly quoting
0:36:58 > 0:37:02with approval, not reporting it.The underlying issue which the
0:37:02 > 0:37:09Conservatives have been trying to cover up through all the smear on
0:37:09 > 0:37:11John McDonnell, Esther McVeigh, who was a Department for Work and
0:37:11 > 0:37:16Pensions minister, and at a time when she was in charge of work and
0:37:16 > 0:37:21pensions as a minister, her company had been reported for breach of
0:37:21 > 0:37:26health and safety guidelines. She is one of the ministers, and for that
0:37:26 > 0:37:30reason...Jeremy Corbyn said we should stick to policies and use
0:37:30 > 0:37:34respectful language. That wasn't respect.That's what I'm doing now,
0:37:34 > 0:37:36and I'm trying to make the underlying political point about
0:37:36 > 0:37:42what's going on here. She was in charge of a department in which she
0:37:42 > 0:37:45was responsible for health and safety when her own company which
0:37:45 > 0:37:53she was a director of, a construction company, they had been
0:37:53 > 0:37:57suspended, their work had had to be suspended twice within three months
0:37:57 > 0:38:01for breach of those health and safety guidelines, putting workers
0:38:01 > 0:38:07at risk in her own company. She is also somebody...We will have to
0:38:07 > 0:38:12leave it there. Thank you very much for that. It is coming up to
0:38:12 > 0:38:2611:40am. You're watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up:
0:38:26 > 0:38:27The future of the Ukip leader
0:38:27 > 0:38:30is in doubt after his girlfriend is suspended from the party
0:38:30 > 0:38:31for racist remarks.
0:38:31 > 0:38:33I'll be speaking to the Ukip Chairman.
0:38:33 > 0:38:35First though, it's time for the Sunday Politics where you are.
0:38:35 > 0:38:38Hello and welcome to the London part of the show.
0:38:38 > 0:38:40I'm Ellie Price.
0:38:40 > 0:38:43Coming up later: As the BBC drama series continues to captivate
0:38:43 > 0:38:45television audiences, we look behind the headlines
0:38:45 > 0:38:51at the real problem of global money laundering in the capital.
0:38:51 > 0:38:53Joining me for the duration of the show, the Labour MP
0:38:53 > 0:38:59for Ealing Central and Acton, Rupa Huq who is Co- Chair
0:38:59 > 0:39:01of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Anti-Corruption and Bob Neill,
0:39:01 > 0:39:03Conservative MP for Bromley and Chislehurst, who chairs
0:39:03 > 0:39:05the Justice Select committee.
0:39:05 > 0:39:09Now, according to a highly critical report published this week,
0:39:09 > 0:39:12passengers on Southern, Thameslink and Great Northern
0:39:12 > 0:39:14Services have suffered the worst rail disruption in the UK,
0:39:14 > 0:39:17with Londoners and London commuters bearing the brunt.
0:39:17 > 0:39:21The National Audit Office said the UK's largest rail franchise,
0:39:21 > 0:39:23GTR, has not provided value for money.
0:39:23 > 0:39:28Jerry Thomas has more.
0:39:28 > 0:39:36The report found that the services had been the worst n the network
0:39:39 > 0:39:39is
0:39:39 > 0:39:40--on the network
0:39:40 > 0:39:44since Govia Thameslink took over the routes and at worst only two
0:39:44 > 0:39:46thirds of trains arrived on time, 60% of delays on
0:39:46 > 0:39:48the GDR network were due to industrial action or lack of crew.
0:39:48 > 0:39:51And nearly 40% of delays were down to poor infrastructure.
0:39:51 > 0:39:52The Department for Transport is being
0:39:52 > 0:39:54blamed for not ensuring that adequate staffing available before
0:39:54 > 0:39:55awarding the franchise.
0:39:55 > 0:39:57Transport Secretary Chris Grayling responded
0:39:57 > 0:39:59to the criticism in the House of Commons.
0:39:59 > 0:40:02What I do apologise for is that we were not able to avoid the
0:40:02 > 0:40:04extraordinarily ill-judged actions by the trade unions who caused
0:40:04 > 0:40:08massive trouble for passengers.
0:40:08 > 0:40:09in
0:40:09 > 0:40:13The report went on to say that the Government
0:40:13 > 0:40:14should learn lessons from
0:40:14 > 0:40:22the case when it sets up other rail franchises in the future.
0:40:25 > 0:40:30lessons for franchises in the future - I think commuters would probably
0:40:30 > 0:40:34rather have action now. A sort of apology from the Transport
0:40:34 > 0:40:38Secretary, but the buck passed to the unions. What do you think is
0:40:38 > 0:40:41going on, and shouldn't he or the Government take more responsibility?
0:40:41 > 0:40:46Chris was right to make the point about the behaviour of the unions,
0:40:46 > 0:40:49which I think was absolutely unacceptable in that case, but there
0:40:49 > 0:40:53are other problems, and there is an issue with the way the franchises
0:40:53 > 0:40:57were drawn up in the first place. He does have an opportunity now to
0:40:57 > 0:41:01change the make-up of those franchises. I have said the same
0:41:01 > 0:41:06thing about south-eastern, my own franchise, which I think is too big.
0:41:06 > 0:41:09This one, an enormous geographic franchise, doesn't make any sense.
0:41:09 > 0:41:14As well as doing what the Government is doing, they should revise the
0:41:14 > 0:41:17geographic spread of the franchises to make them smaller. I don't think
0:41:17 > 0:41:21you can get a grip on something that size. The other thing I suggest we
0:41:21 > 0:41:25could do is to split off the suburban elements of the franchise
0:41:25 > 0:41:29and integrate those more closely with TEFL. You could sensibly do
0:41:29 > 0:41:37those things.Blame for the unions, Rupa?I agree with Bob that this
0:41:37 > 0:41:43franchises to a unwieldy. Northern, Southern, Thames Link, bits of
0:41:43 > 0:41:49Gatwick Express. It is too big for one company. They have said when it
0:41:49 > 0:41:53comes up again in 2021 they will break it up. Rather than the unions,
0:41:53 > 0:41:57I think it is the way we run our railways. I think we have to put
0:41:57 > 0:42:03train and track together and put the whole lot in public ownership. As
0:42:03 > 0:42:07Bob says, it covers from Peterborough to Portsmouth.The
0:42:07 > 0:42:11problem is, we feel there is a blame game giving on, the Government
0:42:11 > 0:42:16blaming the unions, the unions blaming the train companies. We need
0:42:16 > 0:42:19something done and soon, and the Government has suggested it is not
0:42:19 > 0:42:29going back to
0:42:29 > 0:42:33going back to TFL.They should ensure closer operational working
0:42:33 > 0:42:38between TFL and whoever gets the new franchise. I still think they should
0:42:38 > 0:42:41break up the franchises. Putting train and track together, I agree on
0:42:41 > 0:42:47that. That could be done in the context of a new franchise. I don't
0:42:47 > 0:42:51agree with bringing it into public ownership was not I commuted when it
0:42:51 > 0:42:55was British rail. I have been a commuter for 40 years. The myth that
0:42:55 > 0:43:00there was a good British rail is exactly that. It was terrible,
0:43:00 > 0:43:05absolutely awful.We don't have to go to a 70s model, you could do a
0:43:05 > 0:43:09European style one.The reason I favour privatisation is that you
0:43:09 > 0:43:14ought, if the company fails, you should take the camp franchise of
0:43:14 > 0:43:22them.There is a French company that took over from a Dutch company. They
0:43:22 > 0:43:26sold off the depot to Canadians. It seems weird that all these other
0:43:26 > 0:43:30foreign franchises can do it but not us.We will have to leave it there.
0:43:30 > 0:43:33We will watch this story.
0:43:33 > 0:43:36This week the Mayor faced questions from the London Assembly
0:43:36 > 0:43:37about his draft annual budget.
0:43:37 > 0:43:39Londoners will be finding out just how much he's investing
0:43:39 > 0:43:41in the public services he funds.
0:43:41 > 0:43:42Bhavani Vadde has more.
0:43:42 > 0:43:44It's that time of year when the mayor's metaphorical
0:43:44 > 0:43:46piggy bank is opened up.
0:43:46 > 0:43:50He has a pot of nearly £16 billion at his disposal for the
0:43:50 > 0:43:53next financial year.
0:43:53 > 0:43:57Sadiq Khan is currently being grilled by the
0:43:57 > 0:44:00London Assembly on his spending plans for the public services that
0:44:00 > 0:44:02he funds, such as transport, the Fire Service, the work
0:44:02 > 0:44:04of City Hall and policing.
0:44:04 > 0:44:06He's had time to bed into the job.
0:44:06 > 0:44:09This is his second annual budget and he's decided to
0:44:09 > 0:44:12raise his share of council tax, unlike his predecessor, Boris
0:44:12 > 0:44:17Johnson, who held it down.
0:44:17 > 0:44:19While police spending fell under Boris
0:44:19 > 0:44:21Johnson, Sadiq Khan is using his council tax hike to maintain
0:44:21 > 0:44:23spending on police operations at around £3.3 billion.
0:44:23 > 0:44:29The issue that stands out above all others in this
0:44:29 > 0:44:31budget is funding for the Metropolitan Police Service.
0:44:31 > 0:44:39Keeping Londoners safe is my top priority.
0:44:39 > 0:44:41Despite this, next year there will be 2000 fewer police
0:44:41 > 0:44:43officers in the capital.
0:44:43 > 0:44:46The mayor has dropped the strategic target of 32,000 officers
0:44:46 > 0:44:47which has been in place since 2012.
0:44:47 > 0:44:51He says that is due to government funding cuts in the face of
0:44:51 > 0:44:53increasing costs.
0:44:53 > 0:44:55The government has forced the Met to make £600
0:44:55 > 0:44:57million of cuts over recent years already.
0:44:57 > 0:44:59And the announcement on funding from the Policing Minister
0:44:59 > 0:45:07before Christmas was just smoke and mirrors.
0:45:11 > 0:45:17The Mayor, instead of taking ownership of his own actions, is far
0:45:17 > 0:45:19too quick to blame everybody under the sun.
0:45:19 > 0:45:23Whether it be his predecessor, or if he can't find reasons to blame
0:45:23 > 0:45:25him it will be the government or the man on the moon
0:45:25 > 0:45:26or anybody else but himself.
0:45:26 > 0:45:29The Mayor has the power to move funds around the GLA group, and
0:45:29 > 0:45:36he has not done so.
0:45:36 > 0:45:38So he could've maintained police officers numbers at a higher
0:45:38 > 0:45:39level and he hasn't.
0:45:39 > 0:45:41He's putting money into the London Fire Brigade
0:45:41 > 0:45:42rather than the police.
0:45:42 > 0:45:44And they will be putting that money straight
0:45:44 > 0:45:45into their reserves.
0:45:45 > 0:45:47So they won't be spending it on operational duties
0:45:47 > 0:45:48at all.
0:45:48 > 0:45:50Transport is the other big issue in this budget.
0:45:50 > 0:45:52Overall spending for Transport For London
0:45:52 > 0:45:54will drop slightly to around £9.5 billion, and this mayoral
0:45:54 > 0:45:55budget has highlighted some
0:45:55 > 0:45:57concerning pressures on TFL finances.
0:45:57 > 0:46:00So we've seen the mayor over the last year cut some of the
0:46:00 > 0:46:03buses across London.
0:46:03 > 0:46:05We are seeing fewer buses on bus routes right
0:46:05 > 0:46:07across the capital.
0:46:07 > 0:46:09And yet his budget has a line, saying we're
0:46:09 > 0:46:11going to get more revenue in from passengers on buses.
0:46:11 > 0:46:12It doesn't stack up.
0:46:12 > 0:46:15TFL is expecting to receive £900 million less in money
0:46:15 > 0:46:17from passenger fares than was projected in the mayor's budget just
0:46:17 > 0:46:18two years ago.
0:46:18 > 0:46:23And TFL's level of borrowing last year just over £12
0:46:23 > 0:46:25million is more than its total budget.
0:46:25 > 0:46:27That means debt repayments of about £500 million in the next
0:46:27 > 0:46:34year alone.
0:46:34 > 0:46:37You do need to invest in services in order to get income for
0:46:37 > 0:46:39the future.
0:46:39 > 0:46:41And one of the biggest pieces of investment that is
0:46:41 > 0:46:47under way at the moment is of course the development of Crossrail, the
0:46:47 > 0:46:48Elizabeth Line, parts of which will start running
0:46:48 > 0:46:50at the end of this year.
0:46:50 > 0:46:53So there will be a huge uplift in our passenger income.
0:46:53 > 0:46:55This is a draft budget that is due to be finalised
0:46:55 > 0:46:56next month.
0:46:56 > 0:46:58The mayor seems to have cross-party support from Assembly
0:46:58 > 0:47:01members on raising his share of council tax to fund policing.
0:47:01 > 0:47:03But there are questions over whether he
0:47:03 > 0:47:07is making the best use of the rest of the money in his piggy bank.
0:47:07 > 0:47:09Joining us, Professor Tony Travers, leading expert in Local Government
0:47:09 > 0:47:15from the London School of Economics.
0:47:15 > 0:47:19Hello, Tony. You have seen plenty of these budgets in your time, what do
0:47:19 > 0:47:23you make of this one?There are definitely a number of things knew
0:47:23 > 0:47:30about it, we heard about them in the film. One is the decision not to
0:47:30 > 0:47:32increase police spending significantly but to stop the
0:47:32 > 0:47:37reduction in police spending that's been going on for a number of years.
0:47:37 > 0:47:41Police grants have been cut not only in London and that has left police
0:47:41 > 0:47:46spending lower than it was six or eight years ago. What we have is a
0:47:46 > 0:47:50clear signal that the mayor is willing to push up council tax, a
0:47:50 > 0:47:54precept he sets, to stop fat reduction. It won't lead to a big
0:47:54 > 0:48:00increase in police spending. The same is true of the Fire Brigade.He
0:48:00 > 0:48:04has obviously worked out that it is palatable to lift council tax but
0:48:04 > 0:48:09you want see more bobbies on the beat.Not only the mayor and the
0:48:09 > 0:48:14government, they have both agreed that council tax must go up to pay
0:48:14 > 0:48:18for, as I say, not a big increase in police spending but at least to make
0:48:18 > 0:48:21sure it doesn't fall any further. However much politicians in
0:48:21 > 0:48:26different parties will argue that it is the other's case it's true that
0:48:26 > 0:48:31politicians and the mayor on the same side to put up council tax, not
0:48:31 > 0:48:34massively to increase police spending but to stop it falling any
0:48:34 > 0:48:40more.Rupa, let me bring you in on this. The Mayor of London has
0:48:40 > 0:48:45somewhat blamed central government for spending cuts. Yet it has been
0:48:45 > 0:48:49his choice to scrap the strategic target of 32,000 police officers on
0:48:49 > 0:48:55the beat.In the film you pointed out £600 million of savings as they
0:48:55 > 0:49:01are your euphemistically called. There are more coming. We have a
0:49:01 > 0:49:06government clever at displacing these cuts. Even in Ealing, we have
0:49:06 > 0:49:09now got fortnightly bin collection. No one came into politics to do any
0:49:09 > 0:49:13of that stuff. But when everything is being stretched thinner people
0:49:13 > 0:49:18are doing more and more with less and less, he's boxed into a corner
0:49:18 > 0:49:22and is running out of options. This is why the precept has to be raised,
0:49:22 > 0:49:27a courageous thing to do because Boris wouldn't do it.The government
0:49:27 > 0:49:32is responsible for 70% of funding of the Met. Four terror attacks last
0:49:32 > 0:49:38year, not a good look, is it, to cut funding.The government has
0:49:38 > 0:49:42protected police spending as a global figure. Precisely because of
0:49:42 > 0:49:46the terrorist threats more spending has to go on to those
0:49:46 > 0:49:54counterterrorist issues, that has made less available, what we
0:49:55 > 0:49:58sometimes call more local policing. I think that just reflects the
0:49:58 > 0:50:00pleasures we have as a society -- the pressures. I think it's a bit
0:50:00 > 0:50:03rich for the mayor to blame government and ask them for more
0:50:03 > 0:50:06money when you look at his draft budget figures there are £40 million
0:50:06 > 0:50:10not allocated. He needs to get his own budget in order. He isn't good
0:50:10 > 0:50:14at budgeting. He still hasn't actually worked out what he will do
0:50:14 > 0:50:17with £50 million of money. It doesn't give you much confidence in
0:50:17 > 0:50:25the approach he is adopting.Back to transport, we talked about fair
0:50:25 > 0:50:30revenues going down. Something to worry about? The mayor and his team
0:50:30 > 0:50:36talk about the opening of the Elizabeth Line and Crossrail.They
0:50:36 > 0:50:40were going to open and bring in extra fares, it will have to because
0:50:40 > 0:50:44part of the funding of Crossrail is to be paid for by borrowing, and
0:50:44 > 0:50:53that borrowing will now need to be surfaced from you in. Even before
0:50:53 > 0:51:00Crossrail opened this been a big reduction in yield fares to TEFL
0:51:00 > 0:51:05compared with what was projected a few years ago. Some of it will be
0:51:05 > 0:51:13because of their fees, some will be because of fares on tubes, as well
0:51:13 > 0:51:18as the National rail system have begun to fall and nobody was
0:51:18 > 0:51:23predicting that.What do you put that down too.Different patterns of
0:51:23 > 0:51:29work, people are responding to the strikes discussed earlier. Lots of
0:51:29 > 0:51:33reasons. But I think there's probably a bigger change going on in
0:51:33 > 0:51:37society about how people work and where they choose to live. And TfL
0:51:37 > 0:51:43and all of us will have to cope with the fact that fair income may not
0:51:43 > 0:51:47grow as it has done for many years and that will be a challenge for
0:51:47 > 0:51:58TfL.Rupa, how will TfL cope?He's kept his promise of freezing fares,
0:51:58 > 0:52:01generally the Labour Party and generate the first is a campaign
0:52:01 > 0:52:07about this going up. We had to differentiate this year.It's only a
0:52:07 > 0:52:11partial promise.He couldn't possibly keep his original promise.
0:52:11 > 0:52:15He's been attacked for doing that because people say these
0:52:15 > 0:52:20improvements won't happen, I think he's done it the right way.That
0:52:20 > 0:52:27freeze will cost £450 million over several years.Our constituents...
0:52:27 > 0:52:34On the go via story we had last summer, some of the first account
0:52:34 > 0:52:40have gone up over 12% since Christmas.In consequence of this
0:52:40 > 0:52:44partial fare freeze, we have seen consolations in other projects like
0:52:44 > 0:52:50the cancellation of 27 new trains on the Jubilee and Northern minds. It's
0:52:50 > 0:52:57going back to the old Gordon Brown approach to budgeting.
0:52:57 > 0:53:00approach to budgeting. You've got Sadiq Khan saying, we are borrowing
0:53:00 > 0:53:04to invest. That's what Gordon Brown did and what a mess that got us
0:53:04 > 0:53:13into. Not clever budgeting.George Osborne slashed the TfL grant... We
0:53:13 > 0:53:17will have to leave it there, unfortunately although we do like to
0:53:17 > 0:53:23argue about a budget. Tony, thank you for joining us.
0:53:23 > 0:53:25The BBC's latest hit drama series McMafia charts the rivalry
0:53:25 > 0:53:27between Eastern European organised crime factions - and London,
0:53:27 > 0:53:29it suggests, is right in the thick of it.
0:53:29 > 0:53:36Tanjil Rashid has more.
0:53:40 > 0:53:42London, at the heart of a nefarious Eastern
0:53:42 > 0:53:44European organised crime networks, that's
0:53:44 > 0:53:48the picture painted by the
0:53:48 > 0:53:51BBC drama McMafia in which Russian gangsters launder their money
0:53:51 > 0:53:56through the City's financial sector.
0:53:56 > 0:53:59And how accurate is it?
0:53:59 > 0:54:01This man was for many years at the front line in
0:54:01 > 0:54:04the fight against money-laundering from Eastern Europe and he says...
0:54:04 > 0:54:09Very simply very accurate.
0:54:09 > 0:54:11Typically ends up in London indirectly, in the
0:54:11 > 0:54:17sense that the assets are British-based,
0:54:17 > 0:54:18and that's typically property through foreign-owned companies.
0:54:18 > 0:54:24London is the world's foreign exchange capital and there's this
0:54:24 > 0:54:31huge network of asset management companies and corporate service
0:54:31 > 0:54:32providers, professional services, the lawyers, the accountants.
0:54:32 > 0:54:34There has been increasing scrutiny of the City's
0:54:34 > 0:54:36role in laundering money from Eastern Europe.
0:54:36 > 0:54:41Last year, a Guardian investigation showed that
0:54:41 > 0:54:45three-quarters of $1 billion of questionable money had passed
0:54:45 > 0:54:50into UK bank accounts over a four-year period.
0:54:50 > 0:54:51All of the major London-based high street banks were
0:54:51 > 0:54:52involved.
0:54:52 > 0:54:56One of the strangest causes of the situation is that rich
0:54:56 > 0:54:59criminals are attracted to London not because the capital is somehow
0:54:59 > 0:55:00lawless, but precisely for the opposite reason,
0:55:00 > 0:55:08because the rule of law is
0:55:08 > 0:55:15so strong here that they know that they can count on London's
0:55:15 > 0:55:19authorities to protect their private property, their ill-gotten gains.
0:55:19 > 0:55:21And that's why they choose London as the
0:55:21 > 0:55:23ultimate destination to launder all their money.
0:55:23 > 0:55:25The question is what London's lawmakers going to do about
0:55:25 > 0:55:26it.
0:55:26 > 0:55:29One good measure the government could take would be to ensure that
0:55:29 > 0:55:32there are prosecutions of the companies which are in effect front
0:55:32 > 0:55:34companies that allow to be laundered through them in the United Kingdom.
0:55:34 > 0:55:36The number of cases that have been prosecuted
0:55:36 > 0:55:40is very small indeed, and
0:55:40 > 0:55:42we require, I would suggest, more energy from the UK
0:55:42 > 0:55:43authorities to pursue those
0:55:43 > 0:55:44companies.
0:55:44 > 0:55:51In Russia they call everyone a gangster.
0:55:51 > 0:55:52So what.
0:55:52 > 0:55:53He's a businessman.
0:55:53 > 0:55:54But McMafia's portrait of Russian gangsters
0:55:54 > 0:55:55at large in London is
0:55:55 > 0:55:57disputed by the Russian government.
0:55:57 > 0:56:00In a statement the embassy told us they believe it is misleading and
0:56:00 > 0:56:01wrong.
0:56:01 > 0:56:04"If anything, a Russian citizen in the UK is much less
0:56:04 > 0:56:06likely to be imprisoned than an average British resident."
0:56:06 > 0:56:07Tanjil Rashid reporting.
0:56:07 > 0:56:08We're joined by Russia expert Luke Harding,
0:56:08 > 0:56:12who last year in The Guardian exposed the alleged role of London's
0:56:12 > 0:56:16banks in laundering Russian money.
0:56:16 > 0:56:22Hello Luke. It is a good watch for a Sunday night, but how accurate is
0:56:22 > 0:56:26it?Is pretty good, the Russian gangsters back-ups a little
0:56:26 > 0:56:29overblown, but the underlying thesis that London is the most corrupt
0:56:29 > 0:56:34place in the planet is too, not because of gangsters running round
0:56:34 > 0:56:40in Westminster but we allowed through, our banks, lawyers, real
0:56:40 > 0:56:44estate agents, and every so often we will publish this material, we'll go
0:56:44 > 0:56:48and see the National crime agency and they will say it's a bit
0:56:48 > 0:56:52difficult, the perpetrators are far away, we'd like to do something but
0:56:52 > 0:57:01we can't. That's not a sensible place to be.Collusion from the
0:57:01 > 0:57:04Russian government, you've suggested in the past, people are making
0:57:04 > 0:57:09money.It's not happening far away, it's an our doorsteps. Walk around
0:57:09 > 0:57:15West London and you can see it. It is firms registered at Companies
0:57:15 > 0:57:19House in London, one around the corner which processed $9 billion,
0:57:19 > 0:57:22they have posh sounding names and look OK but they are owned by
0:57:22 > 0:57:27mysterious entities in the Cayman Islands, the British Virgin Islands
0:57:27 > 0:57:32and so on. Often this money goes to British Overseas Territories. The
0:57:32 > 0:57:35government could force these territories to publish a register of
0:57:35 > 0:57:41who owns what but for reasons that escape me, they don't.Reds find
0:57:41 > 0:57:47out. Even TV drama writers are making money out of this.It's a
0:57:47 > 0:57:51consequence of London being a global city which brings a downside as well
0:57:51 > 0:57:55as an upside. And because it is a comparatively safe place. The
0:57:55 > 0:58:00government have taken a number of measures. As far as the National
0:58:00 > 0:58:02Crime Agency is concerned we've recently strengthened the links
0:58:02 > 0:58:06between that and the Serious Fraud Office by having a specific national
0:58:06 > 0:58:09economic crime unit which can toss those agencies and pull them
0:58:09 > 0:58:14together more effectively. Secondly a change in the law has made it
0:58:14 > 0:58:17easier to prosecute cases of corruption when they occur abroad
0:58:17 > 0:58:20but the perpetrators are here, that's a big step in the right
0:58:20 > 0:58:26direction. And thirdly we have greater transparency than most
0:58:26 > 0:58:29places when it comes to registering ownership. And we've got an
0:58:29 > 0:58:33agreement with the overseas territories now, they will have
0:58:33 > 0:58:36central measures of ownership and although they are not all published
0:58:36 > 0:58:40openly they do make all those details are available to any law
0:58:40 > 0:58:44enforcement agency on request. A major step in the right direction.
0:58:44 > 0:58:48There's more we could do, we should continue to be vigilant and look
0:58:48 > 0:58:52more at some of those bogus companies based here, but more
0:58:52 > 0:58:57resources into those issues.Rupa you up on the parliamentary group
0:58:57 > 0:59:02against corruption, we have heard that the rule of law protects some
0:59:02 > 0:59:08of these people, shouldn't it be used to pursue them?The programmers
0:59:08 > 0:59:13section but there's no smoke without fire and this culture of secrecy due
0:59:13 > 0:59:18to restrictions, there's £86 million of property, or, more than that,
0:59:18 > 0:59:25isn't it.Lots of money, think of a number!£10,000 alone in the borough
0:59:25 > 0:59:30of Westminster, where we are now, 6000 in Kensington and Chelsea, of
0:59:30 > 0:59:34these properties, we don't really know who owns them. Because in these
0:59:34 > 0:59:37secrecy jurisdictions of the company and we don't know that the
0:59:37 > 0:59:42individuals are, we could have greater transparency.Rupa seems to
0:59:42 > 0:59:48know who they are.With respect to Bob, it's not good enough, the
0:59:48 > 0:59:51others is agencies, they say that they are overwhelmed and people in
0:59:51 > 0:59:58the banks say there's so much of this stuff, it's like trying to play
0:59:58 > 1:00:02whack a croc. The way to do this publicly is shine a light on them
1:00:02 > 1:00:06and end the culture of offshore secrecy that is blighting this
1:00:06 > 1:00:10country. Also going through Scotland. A lot of Scottish schemes
1:00:10 > 1:00:15in Glasgow and places like that, it's not just London. David Cameron
1:00:15 > 1:00:19was keen to do something about this because his late father was an
1:00:19 > 1:00:26offshore. But from Theresa May I've seen nothing.
1:00:26 > 1:00:31She has tried to get an international group. If you move it
1:00:31 > 1:00:34from the British Virgin Islands to Delaware, one of the US
1:00:34 > 1:00:42jurisdictions, there is far less transparency than in the UK.Is it a
1:00:42 > 1:00:45lack of political will?I think this Government has dragged its feet. We
1:00:45 > 1:00:51have a strategy that came out at the end of last year, but we need proper
1:00:51 > 1:00:56legislation. David Cameron, remember he did that whole summit about it,
1:00:56 > 1:00:59and he said, let sunlight be the best disinfectant, but there has
1:00:59 > 1:01:03been very little action.He had an anti-corruption Summit but two
1:01:03 > 1:01:10months later was out of office.Very briefly, Bob, enough being done?You
1:01:10 > 1:01:15can never do enough. I think we have taken valid and important steps.
1:01:15 > 1:01:18Events that have happened since David's time have rather crowded out
1:01:18 > 1:01:22some of the political agenda, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't
1:01:22 > 1:01:25return to it.I have to stop you all.
1:01:25 > 1:01:26That's all we have time for.
1:01:26 > 1:01:28My thanks to Rupa to Bob and to Luke and with that,
1:01:28 > 1:01:36it's back to Sarah.
1:01:41 > 1:01:46Earlier we were talking about comments made by John McDonnell
1:01:46 > 1:01:51about Esther McVeigh. The Labour Party had been in touch to say that
1:01:51 > 1:01:59Mr McDonnell did not quote with approval, and that comments made in
1:01:59 > 1:02:07Parliament confirm that. We have been contacted also by the office of
1:02:07 > 1:02:09Kier Starmer, previously the Director of Public Prosecutions,
1:02:09 > 1:02:12saying he had nothing to do with the decision about John Worboys, and we
1:02:12 > 1:02:18are also happy to make that crystal clear. On to other news...
1:02:18 > 1:02:20Ukip has suspended the girlfriend of the party leader, Henry Bolton,
1:02:20 > 1:02:23after reports that she made racist remarks about Prince Harry's
1:02:23 > 1:02:24fiancee Meghan Markle.
1:02:24 > 1:02:26In text messages to a friend, Jo Marney described black people
1:02:26 > 1:02:29as "ugly" and said "her seed" would "taint our royal family".
1:02:29 > 1:02:31Ms Marney has apologised, and said that comments had been
1:02:31 > 1:02:33taken out of context.
1:02:33 > 1:02:41Paul Oakden, Ukip's party chairman, joins us from Birmingham.
1:02:43 > 1:02:49Can Henry Bolton carry on as leader after this?I think it is very clear
1:02:49 > 1:02:52that Henry is increasingly in a position where he has some difficult
1:02:52 > 1:02:57decisions to make. He knows that. He and I have spoken regularly over the
1:02:57 > 1:03:01weekend, as recently as this morning. I know he is focused on
1:03:01 > 1:03:05those decisions today. He intends on making those decisions today, and
1:03:05 > 1:03:08I'm sure that whatever he does will be in the best interests of the
1:03:08 > 1:03:14party.It sounds like you expect him to resign by the end of the day.Not
1:03:14 > 1:03:19at all. He is in a situation that he would rather not be in, which he
1:03:19 > 1:03:22acknowledges, but I believe he has the party's best interests at heart
1:03:22 > 1:03:30and that is what he will focus on. Would the party's best interests be
1:03:30 > 1:03:34served by him standing down as leader?It would be best served by
1:03:34 > 1:03:38the membership having the opportunity to have their say. Henry
1:03:38 > 1:03:42acknowledges there has been an error in judgment, and it is now for the
1:03:42 > 1:03:45party membership and ruling body to make a determination on whether they
1:03:45 > 1:03:49feel Henry is the best person to lead them into what will be an
1:03:49 > 1:03:52incredibly crucial 12 months for Brexit. The thing that matters
1:03:52 > 1:03:56beyond Ukip and everything else.If he doesn't decide by the end of the
1:03:56 > 1:04:06day that he will stand down, when will the NEC meet?A week today. I
1:04:06 > 1:04:10want to be clear - Henry is not deciding whether he will or won't
1:04:10 > 1:04:15resign today. He's deciding what he can do to help remedy this
1:04:15 > 1:04:20situation. As leader, he will play the leading role in making this
1:04:20 > 1:04:23better, clearly needs made better, and a lot of people take their lead
1:04:23 > 1:04:28from him. The party is represented by its governing body, which will
1:04:28 > 1:04:31meet a week today. If he is still the leader Robbie today, they will
1:04:31 > 1:04:35meet at that point and collectively make a decision about what to do
1:04:35 > 1:04:42going forward.It doesn't sound like he has your support.Far from it. My
1:04:42 > 1:04:49job is to make sure that our thousands of members, who joined not
1:04:49 > 1:04:56because of the leader's Private life but because of Brexit, and we will
1:04:56 > 1:05:04not deliver Brexit on our own. Now that Tony Blair is running around
1:05:04 > 1:05:08with Lord Adonis and Nick Clegg trying to ride roughshod over
1:05:08 > 1:05:13democracy, we need a grand coalition of all those groups that fought on
1:05:13 > 1:05:19the League side to come together to see the journey home. That is the
1:05:19 > 1:05:23priority.It is a huge distraction if you're leader is having to fend
1:05:23 > 1:05:28off the stories about his private life.It is true that we need to be
1:05:28 > 1:05:33behind our leader 100% in taking that battle forward. That is
1:05:33 > 1:05:36absolutely key. Whether or not the party decides it is willing to give
1:05:36 > 1:05:41that support to Henry is for the party decide. My role as German as
1:05:41 > 1:05:46to make sure they have the ability to voice their opinion. I have every
1:05:46 > 1:05:52confidence that our national
1:05:58 > 1:06:01executive committee will do what is in the interests of the party, and I
1:06:01 > 1:06:04have every confidence that that is what our leader will seek to do.
1:06:04 > 1:06:06Whatever the situation, I am confident that a week tomorrow, the
1:06:06 > 1:06:09party will be in fine form to take that to the Remain establishment.
1:06:09 > 1:06:09Thanks for joining us.
1:06:09 > 1:06:12Let's pick up on that with the panel. What do you think the
1:06:12 > 1:06:19prospects are for the Ukip leader? Based on that, it has Monty Python
1:06:19 > 1:06:25moment. He will do what is best for the party, but that best... This is
1:06:25 > 1:06:29symptomatic of a wider crisis for Ukip. I've lost count of the number
1:06:29 > 1:06:37of leaders they've had.Five in 18 months.Three of them were Nigel
1:06:37 > 1:06:41Farage!He will probably be back again. They were a powerful vessel
1:06:41 > 1:06:45for delivering that referendum, but it is a lesson for people wanting to
1:06:45 > 1:06:50start political parties - it was a fragile vessel. The fragility is are
1:06:50 > 1:06:56now being exposed in this impossible nightmare they have. They can't even
1:06:56 > 1:07:00find a credible leader. They have not resigned over principles, they
1:07:00 > 1:07:08have resigned in bizarre circumstances, time and again.One
1:07:08 > 1:07:12of them only lasted days.And that is not bad going on the basis of
1:07:12 > 1:07:16what could happen in the future. It shows that it is difficult to set up
1:07:16 > 1:07:21a credible, serious political party. And they have become incredible.On
1:07:21 > 1:07:25a more serious note, Paul Oakton was saying that it is more important
1:07:25 > 1:07:29than ever to have people are giving the Ukip case as we go through the
1:07:29 > 1:07:34process of Brexit. As a party, can they do that? Or do people think
1:07:34 > 1:07:39that
1:07:39 > 1:07:41that with the referendum done and dusted, Ukip are finished?We have
1:07:41 > 1:07:46seen that in their election results since. He was a credible leader, a
1:07:46 > 1:07:51background in the police, working in the EU, the Armed Forces. I don't
1:07:51 > 1:07:56want to live in Soviet Russia or modern-day North Korea where people
1:07:56 > 1:08:00have guilt by association. He hasn't made these racist remarks.She has
1:08:00 > 1:08:10been suspended from the partly, -- the party, she is his partner.They
1:08:10 > 1:08:15are not taken out of context, they are outrageous, no question at all,
1:08:15 > 1:08:18racist, disgusting remarks, and no question that she should be out of
1:08:18 > 1:08:22the party membership. I would say that his misjudgement in being a
1:08:22 > 1:08:26middle-aged man running off with a glamour model half his age is the
1:08:26 > 1:08:32embarrassment for him. If he wants to be in a relationship with someone
1:08:32 > 1:08:37with those vile views, it is a question of his judgment. But let's
1:08:37 > 1:08:46not confuse the person who committed the offence. The key thing is, Ukip
1:08:46 > 1:08:52had a role, and Nigel Farage in my view is one of the most influential
1:08:52 > 1:08:56politicians of the 21st century in terms of how he has changed
1:08:56 > 1:09:00politics. Part of that effectively meant that Ukip had no role. They
1:09:00 > 1:09:04believe they have an important role, because they don't believe Theresa
1:09:04 > 1:09:07May is delivering the Brexit that many people like me actually voted
1:09:07 > 1:09:13for. I would like to keep them on the back burner as a credible party
1:09:13 > 1:09:18if and when they are needed to like the touch paper beneath the stories.
1:09:18 > 1:09:24To hold Theresa May's fee to the fire. Nigel Farage sprang back into
1:09:24 > 1:09:27the news today, possibly because he was looking for increased relevance
1:09:27 > 1:09:31to get himself back in the headlines, saying that he now agrees
1:09:31 > 1:09:34with Nick Clegg and Tony Blair that there might have to be a second
1:09:34 > 1:09:40referendum. Explain that, Tom.He said it on Friday morning, sorry,
1:09:40 > 1:09:44Thursday morning, and now he has said it again. He has recanted a
1:09:44 > 1:09:51bit, saying that it is not that he wants one, but it is back on the
1:09:51 > 1:09:54front page of the Observer, repeating the message. I think there
1:09:54 > 1:09:59are now will be one. Do you think he could possibly be sniffing out a job
1:09:59 > 1:10:04vacancy coming up any time soon? My reading of your incisive interview
1:10:04 > 1:10:10with Paul Oakton was that we
1:10:17 > 1:10:22should -- was that he will be handed a revolver, possibly this afternoon.
1:10:22 > 1:10:31If Nigel Farage came back, it could be his third or fourth term?He
1:10:31 > 1:10:37could easily come back. He goes on TV programmes and gives interviews,
1:10:37 > 1:10:42and you can see our role for him. The vacancy is about to come up. It
1:10:42 > 1:10:49rather begins to feel like a fait accompli.The EU withdrawal bill is
1:10:49 > 1:10:52back in the Commons this week - trouble for the Government over what
1:10:52 > 1:10:59will happen this week?At certain moments, there will be, as there was
1:10:59 > 1:11:03in December, moments of potential drama, inevitably, because they
1:11:03 > 1:11:08haven't always got a guaranteed majority. I suspect that defeats
1:11:08 > 1:11:13like we saw with the Dominic grieve amendment won't happen very often,
1:11:13 > 1:11:17but there will be, as with the rest of this Brexit sequence, moments of
1:11:17 > 1:11:20heightened drama where it is not at all clear what is going to happen
1:11:20 > 1:11:24and whether she can get what she wants through, Theresa May. I think
1:11:24 > 1:11:29the referendum thing is interesting. There's no reason why the 2016 one
1:11:29 > 1:11:33should be seen as a theological thing that cannot be touched,
1:11:33 > 1:11:37because the 2016 one showed that you can have second referendums. It was
1:11:37 > 1:11:45a second one.Let's have another one in 40- odd years.Very briefly,
1:11:45 > 1:11:49Julia, are you disappointed that Donald Trump is not coming to London
1:11:49 > 1:11:53to open the embassy?I hold no torch for Donald Trump. He wants us to be
1:11:53 > 1:12:00lining the roots and way being -- waving our little flags. He wants to
1:12:00 > 1:12:07meet the corgis. I think we should be friendly with the leaders of
1:12:07 > 1:12:13major global powers who are our allies in trade and militarily. It
1:12:13 > 1:12:17would be foolish to upset that because we don't like the current
1:12:17 > 1:12:20incumbent. What might we might be looking for a trade deal with them
1:12:20 > 1:12:25as well. Theresa May might be relieved. Oh God, yes!Someone
1:12:25 > 1:12:29senior in the Government said to me on Friday, using similar words to
1:12:29 > 1:12:35Donald Trump, it would be an capital at show if he came, and the same if
1:12:35 > 1:12:50he didn't. -- it would be an S show. No one made remarks about President
1:12:50 > 1:12:54Macron or Angela Merkel. If we accept the Chinese president, a
1:12:54 > 1:12:58totalitarian who has his political opponents murdered, I think we can
1:12:58 > 1:13:01cope with Donald Trump, as hideous and horrible and racist and
1:13:01 > 1:13:10misogynistic as he is.Strange that he has
1:13:10 > 1:13:14he has in -- that he hasn't come given the respect shall
1:13:14 > 1:13:18relationship.For our defence and security relationships, we need
1:13:18 > 1:13:21this.We have to leave it there.
1:13:21 > 1:13:22That's all for today.
1:13:22 > 1:13:26Join me again next Sunday at 11 here on BBC One XXXXX.
1:13:26 > 1:13:29Until then, bye bye.
1:13:33 > 1:13:41-- join me again next Sunday at 11 here on BBC One.