0:00:38 > 0:00:40Morning, everyone, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
0:00:40 > 0:00:41I'm Sarah Smith.
0:00:41 > 0:00:44And this is your essential briefing to everything that's happening this
0:00:44 > 0:00:47morning in the world of politics.
0:00:47 > 0:00:50Big fines for bosses who take bonuses from firms with black holes
0:00:50 > 0:00:54in their pension funds - will the Prime Minister's promise
0:00:54 > 0:00:56help the Government get back on the front foot
0:00:56 > 0:00:59after the collapse of Carillion?
0:00:59 > 0:01:01Leading Brexiteer Jacob Rees-Mogg says the Lords risk fundamental
0:01:01 > 0:01:08reform if they obstruct the passage of the EU Withdrawal Bill.
0:01:08 > 0:01:10Arch-remainer Lord Adonis says that's their job.
0:01:10 > 0:01:12We'll bring the MP and the peer together.
0:01:12 > 0:01:15Henry Bolton fights to save his job after a week of damaging headlines
0:01:15 > 0:01:17about his relationship with a 25-year-old model.
0:01:17 > 0:01:19We'll be talk to the Ukip leader live.
0:01:19 > 0:01:26Will it be his last interview as party leader?
0:01:26 > 0:01:31In London, knife crime is on the rise. Could the solution lie in
0:01:31 > 0:01:36Scotland where it is treated as a public health issue?
0:01:38 > 0:01:43All that coming up in the programme.
0:01:43 > 0:01:47And with me today, our regular gaggle of experts providing
0:01:47 > 0:01:50the inside track on all the big stories - Tom Newton Dunn,
0:01:50 > 0:01:52Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.
0:01:52 > 0:01:56First this morning, Theresa May is proposing what she's
0:01:56 > 0:01:58calling tough new rules to penalise company executives
0:01:58 > 0:02:01who try to line their own pockets by putting their workers'
0:02:01 > 0:02:02pensions at risk.
0:02:02 > 0:02:04"An unacceptable abuse," she says, "that will end."
0:02:04 > 0:02:06Her comments come as the Government attempts to seize the initiative
0:02:06 > 0:02:08after the collapse of the giant construction, services
0:02:08 > 0:02:10and out-sourcing company, Carillion, which went into liquidation
0:02:10 > 0:02:15on Monday with debts of around £1.5 billion.
0:02:15 > 0:02:17One of Britain's biggest construction firms, Carillion,
0:02:17 > 0:02:20has been put into liquidation.
0:02:20 > 0:02:2620,000 workers face an uncertain future.
0:02:26 > 0:02:28Carillion employed people providing essential services in our schools,
0:02:28 > 0:02:31hospitals, railways and prisons.
0:02:31 > 0:02:34They had to be told they would be paid when they turned
0:02:34 > 0:02:35up to work on Monday.
0:02:35 > 0:02:39Let me be clear that all employees should continue to turn up to work
0:02:39 > 0:02:41confident in the knowledge that they will be paid
0:02:41 > 0:02:48for the public services that they are providing.
0:02:48 > 0:02:50The firm had around 450 contracts with government,
0:02:50 > 0:02:53on top of private work and overseas projects.
0:02:53 > 0:02:56Some of those had been handed to the company after it issued
0:02:56 > 0:02:57profit warnings last year.
0:02:57 > 0:02:59Prime Minister, why were contracts awarded to Carillion
0:02:59 > 0:03:01despite the warnings?
0:03:01 > 0:03:04Labour and the unions wanted answers.
0:03:04 > 0:03:07Why did the Government not heed the warnings?
0:03:07 > 0:03:12Why did they continue to give billions of pounds of contracts
0:03:12 > 0:03:15to a company that the City were backing against in 2013?
0:03:15 > 0:03:23That's the real question.
0:03:24 > 0:03:26And it's emerged the firm's former chief executive, Richard Howson,
0:03:26 > 0:03:29who left the firm last year, received £1.5 million in pay
0:03:29 > 0:03:31and bonuses in 2016, while many ordinary employees face
0:03:31 > 0:03:34the prospect of being laid-off and a huge black hole
0:03:34 > 0:03:36in the company's pension scheme could result in their
0:03:36 > 0:03:40pensions being slashed.
0:03:40 > 0:03:43Subcontractors who hadn't been paid for weeks were warned they might get
0:03:43 > 0:03:46just 1p for every pound they are owed.
0:03:46 > 0:03:53Some warned that they too might go to the wall.
0:03:53 > 0:03:56We are not really a business of a size that can trade
0:03:56 > 0:03:58through that without some form of support from the Government.
0:03:58 > 0:04:01If it's not forthcoming, I think ourselves and lots of businesses
0:04:01 > 0:04:03like us will probably go out of business.
0:04:03 > 0:04:04In the wake of the collapse...
0:04:04 > 0:04:07For Labour though, this was not just about the failure of one company.
0:04:07 > 0:04:10By Monday night, Jeremy Corbyn had taken to social media.
0:04:10 > 0:04:14At Prime Minister's Questions, he pressed the point home.
0:04:14 > 0:04:16This is not one isolated case of government negligence
0:04:16 > 0:04:17and corporate failure.
0:04:17 > 0:04:22It is a broken system.
0:04:22 > 0:04:28Virgin and Stagecoach's management of East Coast Trains,
0:04:28 > 0:04:30Capita and Atos' handling of disability assessments,
0:04:30 > 0:04:33and security firm G4S's failure to provide security at the Olympics
0:04:33 > 0:04:36were all examples, according to Jeremy Corbyn, of the private
0:04:36 > 0:04:38sector failing the public sector.
0:04:38 > 0:04:43These corporations, Mr Speaker, need to be shown the door.
0:04:43 > 0:04:50We need our public services provided by public employees
0:04:50 > 0:04:55with a public service ethos and a strong public oversight.
0:04:55 > 0:04:59As the ruins of Carillion lie around her, will the Prime Minister
0:04:59 > 0:05:02act to end this costly racket?
0:05:02 > 0:05:05Theresa May pointed out it was the Blair and Brown
0:05:05 > 0:05:08governments that signed many of the big public-private
0:05:08 > 0:05:11partnership deals and she suspected there was something else behind
0:05:11 > 0:05:14the current Labour leadership's hostility to the private sector.
0:05:14 > 0:05:17But what Labour oppose isn't just a role for private companies
0:05:17 > 0:05:21in public services but the private sector as a whole.
0:05:21 > 0:05:25This is a Labour Party that has turned its back on investment,
0:05:25 > 0:05:28on growth, on jobs.
0:05:28 > 0:05:33A Labour Party that will always put politics before people.
0:05:33 > 0:05:36So, under a Labour government, how far would their
0:05:36 > 0:05:40nationalisation plans go?
0:05:40 > 0:05:42Would every binman, builder and even bankers have to be
0:05:42 > 0:05:49employed by the state?
0:05:49 > 0:05:52Carillion's collapses the big story of the week and it will continue to
0:05:52 > 0:05:56have political consequences I will talk through now at the panel. Tom
0:05:56 > 0:06:00Newton Dunn, presumably the caps of Carillion has prompted this promise
0:06:00 > 0:06:05from Theresa May that she will punish bosses who continue to take
0:06:05 > 0:06:09bonuses when they have black holes in the pension fund, is this
0:06:09 > 0:06:13something new?This is our expectation, the Prime Minister has
0:06:13 > 0:06:17acted dramatically as a response to the collapse of Carillion last week.
0:06:17 > 0:06:22The problem as I recall a party conference speech she gave in
0:06:22 > 0:06:26October, 2016, the citizens of nowhere, calling out a rotten
0:06:26 > 0:06:32corrupt apples across the country then, Philip Green who presided over
0:06:32 > 0:06:37the collapse of BHS, leaving a massive pensions black hole, an
0:06:37 > 0:06:41entire year and a bit has passed and no apparent government action. I
0:06:41 > 0:06:50fear Theresa May with the bold words in the new look Observer this
0:06:50 > 0:06:53morning, action today, still action tomorrow.It is what people want to
0:06:53 > 0:06:59hear?Certainly people do want to hear it, although they are amazed it
0:06:59 > 0:07:03has not happened before. Jeremy Corbyn is playing this beautifully.
0:07:03 > 0:07:08There is a much more worrying bigger picture here for the Conservatives.
0:07:08 > 0:07:14The opportunity they have created for Jeremy Corbyn to underline his
0:07:14 > 0:07:19case that unfettered free markets do not work and somehow or other
0:07:19 > 0:07:23Carillion symbolises everything that is wrong about the system, as we
0:07:23 > 0:07:27heard him say in the clip. I do not think most voters are particularly
0:07:27 > 0:07:31ideological, they just want things to work. But if the Government is
0:07:31 > 0:07:36seen to be incompetent on this scale, it creates a vacuum for the
0:07:36 > 0:07:43leader of the Labour Party to put an ideological spin on it and he is
0:07:43 > 0:07:45doing it very effectively.The Prime Minister is right when she says more
0:07:45 > 0:07:49of these PFI contracts were signed under Blair and Brown than under
0:07:49 > 0:07:54subsequent Tory governments, but now you have a Jeremy Corbyn Labour
0:07:54 > 0:07:58Party in opposition, they do not have to shoulder the blame for that?
0:07:58 > 0:08:02Jeremy Corbyn oppose them at the time. The late 1970s in reverse,
0:08:02 > 0:08:08that is what we are seeing. Bowman the minority Labour government being
0:08:08 > 0:08:12torn apart. Now we have a minority Conservative government being
0:08:12 > 0:08:17challenged by tidal waves which put them on the defensive all the time.
0:08:17 > 0:08:21We have not time to go through other examples, but just on this one,
0:08:21 > 0:08:27Theresa May is quite well equipped, as Tom said, from the beginning, she
0:08:27 > 0:08:30taught the language of intervention and corporate governments, coming
0:08:30 > 0:08:34after the bad people in the private sector, but because of the lack of
0:08:34 > 0:08:38action to follow it up and because Jeremy Corbyn genuinely believes in
0:08:38 > 0:08:43these things, it is much easier for him to swim with these tidal waves
0:08:43 > 0:08:47than her lead in this deeply pressurised minority government.We
0:08:47 > 0:08:51have been talking to all three of you through the programme, let us
0:08:51 > 0:08:56pick up on Carillion with the Shadow Attorney General, Labour's Shami
0:08:56 > 0:09:00Chakrabarti. Labour have been very critical of the Government's
0:09:00 > 0:09:02response to the collapse of Carillion, what would Labour have
0:09:02 > 0:09:08done differently this week if you had been in government?I think what
0:09:08 > 0:09:13we would do and what we will do, as soon as we are in government, is
0:09:13 > 0:09:18look in a far more fundamental way at PFI, outsourcing, and by the
0:09:18 > 0:09:24way...We will get on the principles of this, but if you had won the
0:09:24 > 0:09:28election in 2017, it would have been a Labour government handling the
0:09:28 > 0:09:31collapse, what would have been different in your response?We would
0:09:31 > 0:09:36not have left it so late, we would not have bailed out a company that
0:09:36 > 0:09:40already had raised serious warning signals in the City, we would not
0:09:40 > 0:09:48have allowed them to get into subcontracting with, for example,
0:09:48 > 0:09:53Cerco, worth millions of pounds, profit warnings against that company
0:09:53 > 0:09:57too.Cerco are a big government provider, should they be looking at
0:09:57 > 0:10:01all of their contracts with the likes of Cerco who have also issued
0:10:01 > 0:10:05profit warnings?You do have to look at all of the arrangements and the
0:10:05 > 0:10:09subcontracting arrangements. It is not because I am ideological leap
0:10:09 > 0:10:16opposed to the private sector, it will be smaller private sector
0:10:16 > 0:10:23companies suffering from nonpayment. Should the Government help? The man
0:10:23 > 0:10:26running the small business in the film saying they might go to the
0:10:26 > 0:10:30wall.Quite possibly. But with accountability. It is all very well
0:10:30 > 0:10:36for Mrs May to say she will sting the big executives, there has to be
0:10:36 > 0:10:39ministerial responsibility as well. One of my concerns is that when
0:10:39 > 0:10:45vital public services of a kind almost constitutional, for example,
0:10:45 > 0:10:50prisons, get contracted out, what you are actually devolving as
0:10:50 > 0:10:53ministerial responsibility, something goes terribly wrong, in a
0:10:53 > 0:10:58vital utility, a matter of security, infrastructure, and ministers, of
0:10:58 > 0:11:03whatever colour, put up their hands and say, it is wicked executives.
0:11:03 > 0:11:08What we need is ministerial responsibility, oversight, of course
0:11:08 > 0:11:13we want a thriving private sector, but some vital services need to be
0:11:13 > 0:11:17run by public servants and with ministers held to account.Sometimes
0:11:17 > 0:11:20when you hear Labour Shadow ministers talking, it sounds as
0:11:20 > 0:11:24though they want to take absolutely everything back into public
0:11:24 > 0:11:29ownership.That is not the case. I believe in a mixed economy and I
0:11:29 > 0:11:34know my colleagues do too but there are times when some things need to
0:11:34 > 0:11:38be in public hands. That will include on constitutional grounds
0:11:38 > 0:11:42talking about people's human rights, basic security, and it will also
0:11:42 > 0:11:46mean sometimes when you have a big organisation and outsourcing is used
0:11:46 > 0:11:52to grind down the working conditions of some workers and break down the
0:11:52 > 0:11:56sense of community solidarity.Where is it appropriate for private
0:11:56 > 0:12:01contracts?For example, there are some things that the private sector
0:12:01 > 0:12:04probably does better. When you're running a police force, you are
0:12:04 > 0:12:09unlikely to say, we will make the motorbikes for the police officers
0:12:09 > 0:12:13better than BMW. Maybe you will but I doubt it will happen any time
0:12:13 > 0:12:18soon.You need to look at this. What about cleaning in offices and police
0:12:18 > 0:12:24stations? Should that be run by the police or outsourced?Maybe
0:12:24 > 0:12:28hospitals are better example because cleanliness in a hospital is quite
0:12:28 > 0:12:32often a matter of life and death. Sometimes it is better even for
0:12:32 > 0:12:38something that seems not a core service like claiming to be in
0:12:38 > 0:12:43public hands. You need to look at this on a case-by-case basis.You do
0:12:43 > 0:12:47not have many examples of where it is appropriate for private companies
0:12:47 > 0:12:51to be involved. Prisons and probation, what about catering in
0:12:51 > 0:12:56prisons, does that have to be in public hands?What you want to do is
0:12:56 > 0:13:02look at the quality of the service, the quality of the conditions, for
0:13:02 > 0:13:07the people working there, and to see what would be best value for the
0:13:07 > 0:13:11public and for the public purse. It is not ideological, but in some
0:13:11 > 0:13:17cases, principles are at stake.We are left with the problem here of
0:13:17 > 0:13:19workers worried about pensions, working for Carillion and
0:13:19 > 0:13:24subcontractors who might not get paid. If the Government work to talk
0:13:24 > 0:13:28about putting taxpayers' money into helping out those people or those
0:13:28 > 0:13:32companies, would the Labour Party object?We would want to look at the
0:13:32 > 0:13:38conditions of spending public money? In principle? It is not the fault of
0:13:38 > 0:13:41the subcontracting small companies they will not get paid.Indeed, but
0:13:41 > 0:13:46if you decide to spend public money, for example, to help the smaller
0:13:46 > 0:13:53businesses, you want accountability in response. You
0:13:53 > 0:13:55in response. You might well want to legislate to give priority to
0:13:55 > 0:13:57pension funds, for example, over shareholders who have not done their
0:13:57 > 0:14:00job of corporate governance in these cases.Moving on to talk about
0:14:00 > 0:14:05something else, if you don't mind, the serial six attacker, this time
0:14:05 > 0:14:08last week we were sitting here talking about the fact the Justice
0:14:08 > 0:14:12Minister said he would launch a judicial review and now he will not
0:14:12 > 0:14:18because it has little chance of succeeding. Should the Government be
0:14:18 > 0:14:21pursuing a judicial review?My view at the time, I held my tongue about
0:14:21 > 0:14:26it because I am used to politicians wading in in a knee jerk way when
0:14:26 > 0:14:30there is a case of this kind, my view is that if there is to be a
0:14:30 > 0:14:34judicial review of the parole board decision, the best person to bring
0:14:34 > 0:14:38such a review would be a victim because the chances are their best
0:14:38 > 0:14:42arguments would be under the Human Rights Act which gives rights to
0:14:42 > 0:14:49victims and not to politicians. Crowdfunding attempt to raise money
0:14:49 > 0:14:51to do that perhaps?If the Justice Secretary wants to make a name for
0:14:51 > 0:14:55himself with this as a new Justice Secretary, he might better give his
0:14:55 > 0:15:00attentions to making sure the people have decent levels of legal aid so
0:15:00 > 0:15:03they can vindicate their rights under the Human Rights Act. In
0:15:03 > 0:15:06relation to the case of John Worboys and the crisis of public confidence,
0:15:06 > 0:15:11that it is in danger of creating, we could do with an end review of the
0:15:11 > 0:15:19whole case, from the moment a young woman
0:15:19 > 0:15:22woman went to the police and was not believed to the moment this release
0:15:22 > 0:15:24decision was made arguably with the lack of transparency and involvement
0:15:24 > 0:15:27of victims.He was prosecuted for offences against 12 women and we
0:15:27 > 0:15:29know there were almost 100 other women who came forward. The CPS said
0:15:29 > 0:15:33there was not enough evidence and they cannot revisit that decision,
0:15:33 > 0:15:37if there was not enough evidence then, there will not be enough now.
0:15:37 > 0:15:41I am not second-guessing the particular CPS decision is because I
0:15:41 > 0:15:45am not in a position to do that but there are issues for the whole
0:15:45 > 0:15:49system from the moment that a woman went to the police and was not
0:15:49 > 0:16:06treated with the respect she deserved, to victims.
0:16:06 > 0:16:10Kier Starmer was director of prosecutions at the time and he said
0:16:10 > 0:16:15he didn't have any involvement in the decision-making behind it.Nor
0:16:15 > 0:16:23did his predecessor.But he should have done, shouldn't he? He has
0:16:23 > 0:16:29prosecuted for only 12 cases, the DPP should be involved in that.My
0:16:29 > 0:16:39argument is this whole
0:16:45 > 0:16:48story on this whole case and the numbers of women involved and
0:16:48 > 0:16:50frankly the anxiety this decision has caused to women who weren't even
0:16:50 > 0:16:54victims means there needs to be an end to end review of how the system
0:16:54 > 0:16:56has worked in this case, from the moment a woman went to the police
0:16:56 > 0:16:59and was arguably not believed in was made without the input of victims
0:16:59 > 0:17:01who I would expect to be given notice and the opportunity to make
0:17:01 > 0:17:03representations to the parole board. There's a story running in the
0:17:03 > 0:17:06Sunday Times this morning about Momentum and saying they are trying
0:17:06 > 0:17:11to deselect 50 Labour MPs. The fact of the matter is whether have been
0:17:11 > 0:17:18Parliamentary selections, momentum candidates have... Do you think
0:17:18 > 0:17:25actually the Parliamentary Labour Party should better
0:17:26 > 0:17:29Party should better reflect Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party?Momentum is
0:17:29 > 0:17:36not prioritising the selection of some candidates over others. They
0:17:36 > 0:17:40are part of the Labour movement that has always had various strands
0:17:40 > 0:17:45within it. What is exciting to me is not exciting to the Sunday Times,
0:17:45 > 0:17:49fair enough, but we have a Democratic party becoming more
0:17:49 > 0:17:57democratic. I...There is still a massive disconnect between those who
0:17:57 > 0:18:01sit in Parliament and those who have joined since Jeremy Corbyn became
0:18:01 > 0:18:12leader.I think these things become exaggerated. I have noticed people
0:18:12 > 0:18:16uniting around purposes, not least the scandal around Carillion. I
0:18:16 > 0:18:22don't really spot this red Menace in the way other people do. It's a
0:18:22 > 0:18:26democratic party, and most popular movement of about 600,000 people and
0:18:26 > 0:18:31I think that something to be optimistic about.Thank you for
0:18:31 > 0:18:41talking to this morning.
0:18:41 > 0:18:46Momentum haven't been that successful so far.I think it has
0:18:46 > 0:18:51been overblown on the basis of the evidence. You quoted the procedure
0:18:51 > 0:18:55is taking place so far, they haven't prevailed that often and in the
0:18:55 > 0:18:59Sunday Times this morning they resorted to the example of Haringey
0:18:59 > 0:19:04Council where there are a lot of specific local issues. At this point
0:19:04 > 0:19:08it is unclear whether the selection will become the overwhelming theme
0:19:08 > 0:19:12over the next few years in the Labour Party. It might do but the
0:19:12 > 0:19:17evidence so far is it is much more nuanced than some papers are
0:19:17 > 0:19:23suggesting.Three new Momentum members on the NEC this morning, is
0:19:23 > 0:19:30it going to make a difference do you think?A huge difference because
0:19:30 > 0:19:33Corbyn and his wing of the party can now do precisely what they want, as
0:19:33 > 0:19:38long as they have the union muscle behind them during conference votes,
0:19:38 > 0:19:43then the party and any which way he wants to run it is his. I disagree
0:19:43 > 0:19:47with Steve, the difference in language Jeremy Corbyn and his close
0:19:47 > 0:19:53associates were using after the NEC elections this week on mandatory
0:19:53 > 0:20:00reselection is, Shami wasn't asked if she believed in them, Rebecca
0:20:00 > 0:20:06Long-Bailey was, and they refused to rule them out and say they were a
0:20:06 > 0:20:15bad thing. In my view, it is without doubt that Corbyn will at some stage
0:20:15 > 0:20:20try to reshape the Parliamentary party more in his image and you may
0:20:20 > 0:20:26argue why should he not do that. Shami was saying the party is much
0:20:26 > 0:20:32more united around Jeremy Corbyn and when we see a story like Carillion
0:20:32 > 0:20:37it is easier for him to get the backing of the Parliamentary party.
0:20:37 > 0:20:43I think that's right. How unpleasant and ugly and divisive is it to have
0:20:43 > 0:20:47the story is out, whether or not they are completely accurate or
0:20:47 > 0:20:52whoever is briefing, I think it looks very bad on the atmosphere of
0:20:52 > 0:20:56the Parliamentary party. Where I do think Shami has a good point is on
0:20:56 > 0:21:02the size of the Labour membership. 600,000, the Conservatives can only
0:21:02 > 0:21:13dream of getting a fraction of
0:21:13 > 0:21:15dream of getting a fraction of this, so clearly there is a big problem
0:21:15 > 0:21:17for the Tory party there in matching what Labour is doing.We should ask,
0:21:17 > 0:21:21mandatory reselection for Labour MPs, are you in favour, Shami?Any
0:21:21 > 0:21:25democratic process should be across the board and for everyone. Where
0:21:25 > 0:21:29MPs are doing a good job, including working with their membership, and
0:21:29 > 0:21:33you have to work with your membership to get the vote out in
0:21:33 > 0:21:36the Labour Party, that relationship works well and I think that
0:21:36 > 0:21:41relationship will only work better into the future. I have been all
0:21:41 > 0:21:49over the country to all sorts of CLPs campaigning, and you would be
0:21:49 > 0:21:53surprised at the number of places where there is a very happy
0:21:53 > 0:21:58relationship between the MP and the party regardless of the particular
0:21:58 > 0:22:00strand they come from.Thank you for that.
0:22:00 > 0:22:02Now, the Government's flagship Brexit legislation -
0:22:02 > 0:22:04the EU Withdrawal Bill - hasn't always had the easiest
0:22:04 > 0:22:08of times in the House of Commons, but this week, MPs voted to send it
0:22:08 > 0:22:10through for consideration in the House of Lords.
0:22:10 > 0:22:12A number of peers having expressed concern about the so-called Henry
0:22:12 > 0:22:15VIII powers the bill grants to ministers to make changes to some
0:22:15 > 0:22:16laws without parliamentary scrutiny.
0:22:16 > 0:22:18And of course, a number of peers are dismayed
0:22:18 > 0:22:20about the process of Brexit itself.
0:22:20 > 0:22:23So, are we likely to see more dramatic attempts to change
0:22:23 > 0:22:25the Bill in a chamber full of unelected lawmakers?
0:22:25 > 0:22:33Ellie Price has been taking their temperature.
0:22:34 > 0:22:37Stop Brexit!
0:22:37 > 0:22:40You'd think a bill that sought to enshrine EU law into British law
0:22:40 > 0:22:42after Brexit would be popular with the pro-Remain
0:22:42 > 0:22:44crowd in Parliament.
0:22:44 > 0:22:47But when the Withdrawal Bill cleared the Commons this week,
0:22:47 > 0:22:50one Tory Remain-supporting MP said he hoped the House of Lords would
0:22:50 > 0:22:53make an enormous amount of changes.
0:22:53 > 0:22:57Good lord, what are they up to?!
0:22:57 > 0:23:00I think what will happen is that the Government will suffer
0:23:00 > 0:23:04a series of defeats, which will reduce the power
0:23:04 > 0:23:07of ministers to do things without proper scrutiny,
0:23:07 > 0:23:11and put in place a sensible series of votes - both in Parliament
0:23:11 > 0:23:15and the people at the end of the process - so that when we do
0:23:15 > 0:23:17get an end point to Brexit, people can say that it's
0:23:17 > 0:23:23been done properly.
0:23:23 > 0:23:24So a second referendum is on the table?
0:23:24 > 0:23:26It's definitely on the table.
0:23:26 > 0:23:28You would expect a Lib Dem to say that, but some Tory
0:23:28 > 0:23:33peers want changes too.
0:23:33 > 0:23:36If it comes to the situation where it looks as if what people
0:23:36 > 0:23:38voted for cannot be delivered, then we have to decide how
0:23:38 > 0:23:43best to move forward.
0:23:43 > 0:23:47I don't believe the House of Lords is trying to block Brexit at all.
0:23:47 > 0:23:51I think what the House of Lords is doing is its constitutional duty.
0:23:51 > 0:23:54So anyone hoping the House of Lords will deliver a fatal blow to Brexit
0:23:54 > 0:23:59will be disappointed, but so too will anyone hoping
0:23:59 > 0:24:01that the Withdrawal Bill will come out of there unchanged.
0:24:01 > 0:24:06So what is all the fuss about?
0:24:06 > 0:24:08The extent of the Government taking powers to itself while giving
0:24:08 > 0:24:10powers to Parliament, Henry VIII powers, this issue,
0:24:10 > 0:24:13of course, about the kind of protections we've had under EU
0:24:13 > 0:24:15law that we've contributed to for consumer protection,
0:24:15 > 0:24:19workplace protection, environmental issues,
0:24:19 > 0:24:23they are coming into UK law and that's what this bill does
0:24:23 > 0:24:26but it needs to make sure they're protected in UK law; they can't just
0:24:26 > 0:24:28be overturned the next day.
0:24:28 > 0:24:31There has to be a mandatory process to do that.
0:24:31 > 0:24:34But this was the reaction when some elected MPs over in the Commons
0:24:34 > 0:24:35voted against aspects of the Withdrawal Bill,
0:24:35 > 0:24:39causing a government defeat.
0:24:39 > 0:24:41One of their own colleagues even talked of treachery.
0:24:41 > 0:24:46Another MP, Jacob Rees-Mogg, this week said the laws would face
0:24:46 > 0:24:49reform if it tried to frustrate the democratic will of the people.
0:24:49 > 0:24:57So is the chamber full of unelected Remainers playing with fire?
0:24:58 > 0:25:00Since I've been leader in the House of Lords,
0:25:00 > 0:25:02for just over two years, what I've found is every time
0:25:02 > 0:25:04someone doesn't agree with something we're doing,
0:25:04 > 0:25:06they will get quite hysterical about "take
0:25:06 > 0:25:09away their powers," it's almost an off-with-their-heads moment.
0:25:09 > 0:25:12But you know, there is quite prescribed powers we do,
0:25:12 > 0:25:13we take them seriously and responsibly, and,
0:25:13 > 0:25:16if there are changes we think should be made,
0:25:16 > 0:25:20we will send them back to the House of Commons.
0:25:20 > 0:25:22And even one of the lesser-spotted Brexit-supporting
0:25:22 > 0:25:23Lords isn't worried.
0:25:23 > 0:25:26There are a number of lords are in cahoots with Messrs Tusk
0:25:26 > 0:25:28and Juncker in trying to persuade the British people that they made
0:25:28 > 0:25:32a grave mistake when they voted to leave Brexit, and I have no doubt
0:25:32 > 0:25:34they will have a bit of fun doing that.
0:25:34 > 0:25:36But on the big issues, like whether we should
0:25:36 > 0:25:39have a second referendum, the Lords voted by a majority
0:25:39 > 0:25:42of more than 200 against that last year; or if you look at the Commons
0:25:42 > 0:25:45vote where the majority was over 200 against remaining in the single
0:25:45 > 0:25:48market and the customs union, I think the Lords will look
0:25:48 > 0:25:50to the elected House and do what they're good at,
0:25:50 > 0:25:52which is to consider the detail.
0:25:52 > 0:25:56Of course, one of the biggest differences between the Lords
0:25:56 > 0:25:58and Commons is the presence of nearly 200 crossbenchers -
0:25:58 > 0:26:01members who aren't in a party and don't take the whip,
0:26:01 > 0:26:03and they include some of the most distinguished legal
0:26:03 > 0:26:05minds in the country.
0:26:05 > 0:26:07And debate over the bill's constitutional implications may well
0:26:07 > 0:26:11lead to more than one showdown with the Commons.
0:26:11 > 0:26:15It's worth remembering that the Corporate Manslaughter
0:26:15 > 0:26:18and Corporate Homicide Bill went back and forth between the two
0:26:18 > 0:26:22Houses seven times only a few years ago, and that was just an aspect
0:26:22 > 0:26:25of the criminal justice system, it wasn't about the biggest decision
0:26:25 > 0:26:30this country is taking since 1945.
0:26:30 > 0:26:38So I think people need to be a little bit relaxed about that.
0:26:39 > 0:26:42Like the MPs on the Green benches of the Commons,
0:26:42 > 0:26:46the Lords on their red benches agreed to trigger Article 50.
0:26:46 > 0:26:49But the Lords, like the Commons, is split on what Brexit
0:26:49 > 0:26:52should actually look like.
0:26:52 > 0:26:56There may be some toing and froing, or ping-pong as it's known around
0:26:56 > 0:26:59here, but pretty much everyone agrees the Lords can't
0:26:59 > 0:27:01and won't block the bill, and it will go through,
0:27:01 > 0:27:06probably, by the end of May.
0:27:06 > 0:27:08Ellie Price reporting.
0:27:08 > 0:27:10Well, to discuss this, we're joined from Somerset
0:27:10 > 0:27:12by the MP Jacob Rees-Mogg.
0:27:12 > 0:27:16This week he was elected chair of the influential
0:27:16 > 0:27:17European Research Group, made up of Brexit-backing
0:27:17 > 0:27:18Conservative backbenchers.
0:27:18 > 0:27:26And in the studio, we're joined by Andrew Adonis.
0:27:26 > 0:27:29He's a Labour peer who resigned from his role as a Government
0:27:29 > 0:27:33adviser last month over its Brexit strategy.
0:27:33 > 0:27:37Lord Adonis, you have made your opposition to Brexit clear, recently
0:27:37 > 0:27:42describing it as a national list spasm that can be stopped. Do you
0:27:42 > 0:27:48think the EU Withdrawal Bill is the opportunity to stop Brexit?I agree
0:27:48 > 0:27:53this is the biggest decision the country will take since 1945. I do
0:27:53 > 0:27:58not think the Lords can stop it, this is an issue for the people. It
0:27:58 > 0:28:01started with the people in a referendum and my view is the final
0:28:01 > 0:28:05sites should go to the people. The critical issue over the coming
0:28:05 > 0:28:09months will be the relationship between the House of Lords and the
0:28:09 > 0:28:13House of Commons in seeing people have the final say.When you say
0:28:13 > 0:28:18people have the final say, you are talking about a second referendum?
0:28:18 > 0:28:24The first referendum on Mrs May's terms on departure of the EU, not a
0:28:24 > 0:28:27rerun of the referendum two years ago because when we have that we
0:28:27 > 0:28:33didn't know what the terms would be. We are a democracy, we engage the
0:28:33 > 0:28:38people, this is the biggest decision since 1945 and the people should
0:28:38 > 0:28:44have the final say.Let me bring in Jacob Rees-Mogg on that, you are
0:28:44 > 0:28:48confident we will have a Brexit deal that will look attractive to most of
0:28:48 > 0:28:51the electorate so presumably you wouldn't be too worried about the
0:28:51 > 0:28:56second referendum on the terms of the deal?I think the ambition of
0:28:56 > 0:29:01the Lords in putting forward a second referendum is to try to stop
0:29:01 > 0:29:05tax it, and Lord Adonis has been clear about that. He said only
0:29:05 > 0:29:09yesterday he wanted to delete all of the clauses of the Withdrawal Bill.
0:29:09 > 0:29:13We have had a referendum, then a general election where both main
0:29:13 > 0:29:17parties backed the referendum results. I think if somebody wants a
0:29:17 > 0:29:22second referendum they should win a general election first, campaigning
0:29:22 > 0:29:26for one, rather than getting unelected peers to use it as a
0:29:26 > 0:29:30stratagem to obstruct Brexit. It is noticeable Lord Adonis and others
0:29:30 > 0:29:40have not called for a second referendum on other things
0:29:40 > 0:29:42referendum on other things like the Scottish vote.Lord Adonis, you have
0:29:42 > 0:29:45sent you will make the Government's life an absolute misery over the EU
0:29:45 > 0:29:49Withdrawal Bill which sounds as if you are using it as a stick to beat
0:29:49 > 0:29:54a policy or a decision you don't like rather than your real role
0:29:54 > 0:29:57which is legislative scrutiny. There's a huge amount of scrutiny to
0:29:57 > 0:30:02do. The powers which ministers are given in this bill is without
0:30:02 > 0:30:05precedent in a single piece of legislation, they have order making
0:30:05 > 0:30:09powers over the whole sphere of legislation that was previously
0:30:09 > 0:30:12enshrined in European law so if the House of Lords doesn't pay attention
0:30:12 > 0:30:18to that it's not doing its job. Coming back to Jacob's remarks,
0:30:18 > 0:30:29Jacob himself has been a
0:30:31 > 0:30:34supporter of the second referendum. In the House of Commons in 2011 he
0:30:34 > 0:30:36himself set out a case for a referendum on the terms of departure
0:30:36 > 0:30:39from the European Union if the electorate voted first time around
0:30:39 > 0:30:42to set the process in train. Jacob is contradicting his own position.
0:30:42 > 0:30:48You are shaking your head, Jacob Rees-Mogg.
0:30:48 > 0:30:52That is simply inaccurate. There was a proposal for a referendum to begin
0:30:52 > 0:30:57a process of negotiating nonmembership, to give them a
0:30:57 > 0:31:01mandate, and he would come back with what he achieved, and there would be
0:31:01 > 0:31:05a referendum on the result. The Prime Minister decided to have a
0:31:05 > 0:31:12straightforward referendum, in or out. Lord Adonis is speaking about
0:31:12 > 0:31:16discussion before the referendum terms were set, then they were set,
0:31:16 > 0:31:20everyone knew what they were voting for, to leave the EU, it was clear
0:31:20 > 0:31:24that meant leaving the single market and the customs union. I put a dent
0:31:24 > 0:31:31Lord Adonis, he would not be calling for a second referendum had Remain
0:31:31 > 0:31:35won.That is completely untrue. We did not know what the terms were.
0:31:35 > 0:31:39The Conservative manifesto for the election before said we would stay
0:31:39 > 0:31:46in the single market. These are Jacob's words, in the House of
0:31:46 > 0:31:50Commons, in 2011, it might make sense to have the second referendum
0:31:50 > 0:31:53after the renegotiation is completed...He says he is talking
0:31:53 > 0:31:59about Cameron's renegotiation that he went to before.Exactly the same
0:31:59 > 0:32:03principle applies now. We are seeing the terms Mrs May is coming back
0:32:03 > 0:32:06with, it is absolutely right that people should have a safe and it
0:32:06 > 0:32:09should not be Jacob Rees Mogg and Brexit ideologues deciding what the
0:32:09 > 0:32:18terms are.The difficulty with this is that people decided in a
0:32:18 > 0:32:20referendum, the general election manifestos of both parties committed
0:32:20 > 0:32:24to carrying out the result of the referendum, if Lord Adonis wants to
0:32:24 > 0:32:28put his case forward, he should try to stand for election, something I
0:32:28 > 0:32:33do not think he has ever done, win a general election campaigning to
0:32:33 > 0:32:37reverse the result. Unelected peers should not try to frustrate the will
0:32:37 > 0:32:41of the British people, as now expressed in two Democratic votes.
0:32:41 > 0:32:45On that, you have been issuing some veiled threats this week, saying the
0:32:45 > 0:32:49House of Lords would get into difficulties if they try to
0:32:49 > 0:32:54frustrate Brexit, what do you mean by that?I think what Baroness Smith
0:32:54 > 0:32:59is saying is very sensible, the House of Lords will abide by the
0:32:59 > 0:33:02Constitutional conventions, it will look to revise, I have concerns
0:33:02 > 0:33:06about some of the Henry VIII powers myself, a perfectly reasonable thing
0:33:06 > 0:33:11for the Lords to look at in its normal constitutional role. But if
0:33:11 > 0:33:15the House of Lords gets into a 1909 position of peers against the
0:33:15 > 0:33:22people, the people win and the Lords need to be aware of that, they need
0:33:22 > 0:33:24to observe the constitutional norms and then everything will carry on.
0:33:24 > 0:33:27The Lords need to be aware that what might happen to them in those
0:33:27 > 0:33:32circumstances, that government could flood the Chamber with 200 new Tory
0:33:32 > 0:33:36peers?It is already pretty flooded, but yes, you would have to have a
0:33:36 > 0:33:41deluge on top of a flood. The House of Lords has to abide by the
0:33:41 > 0:33:44constitutional norms, otherwise the Prime Minister would be perfectly
0:33:44 > 0:33:48entitled to use reserve powers to create more peers. I hope that will
0:33:48 > 0:33:51not be necessary. This is a conditional, not something I am
0:33:51 > 0:33:56calling for.What he is doing is threatening the Lords, Brexit
0:33:56 > 0:33:59ideologues who will stop at nothing to get Brexit through without the
0:33:59 > 0:34:05people the final say. He is dodging the issue because nobody is talking
0:34:05 > 0:34:08about the House of Lords asserting itself against the people. The issue
0:34:08 > 0:34:13which it will come down to resist the House of Lords invites the House
0:34:13 > 0:34:16of Commons, Jacob and his colleagues, themselves to reach a
0:34:16 > 0:34:20decision again on the issue of whether they should have a
0:34:20 > 0:34:25referendum on the final terms. It is not anti-democratic, it is the
0:34:25 > 0:34:29proper expression of democracy and the House of Lords. It is something
0:34:29 > 0:34:34which Jacob himself has supported in the past, no longer convenient for
0:34:34 > 0:34:39him to recognise that fact, but people's past does catch up with
0:34:39 > 0:34:44them. Nigel Farage has come to support a referendum on Mrs May's
0:34:44 > 0:34:49Brexit deal because he realises it is inevitable. As people realise the
0:34:49 > 0:34:52gravity of this decision and the fact Parliament itself is not in a
0:34:52 > 0:34:57great place to take it because there has been a referendum. The case for
0:34:57 > 0:35:01a referendum on Mrs May's terms will be unstoppable and the House of
0:35:01 > 0:35:05Lords will play an important democratic role in inviting the
0:35:05 > 0:35:09House of Commons to reach a decision on that.Jacob Rees Mogg, it would
0:35:09 > 0:35:13be ironic if the British constitution is working its way with
0:35:13 > 0:35:16the House of Lords making its revisions sending it back to the
0:35:16 > 0:35:20Commons, for you to argue against that, when what you wanted was for
0:35:20 > 0:35:26us to take control back of our own government.I am all in favour of
0:35:26 > 0:35:29taking back control and decisions being made in the House of Commons
0:35:29 > 0:35:34with the Lords acting as a revising Chamber. You have to understand the
0:35:34 > 0:35:38motives, they are trying to obstruct Brexit. Lord Adonis said the
0:35:38 > 0:35:44decision to leave for is as big a mistake as appeasement in the 1930s,
0:35:44 > 0:35:50almost hysterical reaction to the Brexit decision, and they are using
0:35:50 > 0:35:54it as a strategy to frustrate Brexit. What they should do is not
0:35:54 > 0:35:57used the unelected Lords but they should campaign in a general
0:35:57 > 0:36:01election if they have to campaign to do it as the Labour Party notably
0:36:01 > 0:36:05didn't in 2017, to call for a second referendum and reverse the result,
0:36:05 > 0:36:09but they do not have the courage because they know the British people
0:36:09 > 0:36:13are not with them.One slightly different thing before we finish,
0:36:13 > 0:36:16are you excited the buyer tapestry is coming to Britain, you don't
0:36:16 > 0:36:22think it is maybe a bit cheeky of the French celebrating something to
0:36:22 > 0:36:29a celebrating the Norman victory over the British?
0:36:30 > 0:36:34over the British?-- Bayeaux tapestry. I think it is a splendid
0:36:34 > 0:36:37gesture. We could send them a fragment of the union Jack from
0:36:37 > 0:36:44Nelson's ship at Trafalgar to remind them that by and large we win the
0:36:44 > 0:36:51battles.Some people have suggested we send Jacob but Bayeaux tapestry
0:36:51 > 0:36:56is much more recent in its views.On the big issue of Brexit... We will
0:36:56 > 0:36:59have to leave it there, Jacob Rees Mogg, Lord Adonis, thank you for
0:36:59 > 0:37:01that.
0:37:01 > 0:37:03And you can find more Brexit analysis
0:37:03 > 0:37:06and explanation on the BBC website, at bbc.co.uk/Brexit.
0:37:06 > 0:37:07It's coming up to 11.40am.
0:37:07 > 0:37:09You're watching the Sunday Politics.
0:37:09 > 0:37:12Coming up on the programme, we'll be talking to embattled Ukip
0:37:12 > 0:37:13leader Henry Bolton ahead of his make-or-break meeting
0:37:13 > 0:37:15with the party's executive.
0:37:15 > 0:37:23First, though, it's time for the Sunday Politics where you are.
0:37:28 > 0:37:30Hello and welcome to the London part of the show.
0:37:30 > 0:37:31I'm Jo Coburn.
0:37:31 > 0:37:35Joining me for the duration of the programme, Jackie Doyle-Price,
0:37:35 > 0:37:37Conservative MP for Thurrock, and Sarah Jones, Labour MP
0:37:37 > 0:37:38for Croydon Central.
0:37:38 > 0:37:40Welcome to both of you.
0:37:40 > 0:37:42Under Sadiq Khan, London has witnessed an enormous
0:37:42 > 0:37:44surge in knife crime.
0:37:44 > 0:37:50Offences are up by almost a third on a year ago.
0:37:50 > 0:37:53Having enjoyed good poll ratings in his honeymoon period in office,
0:37:53 > 0:37:57the mayor now finds himself under real pressure for the first time.
0:37:57 > 0:38:00But could an answer to the problem be found north of the border,
0:38:00 > 0:38:03in Scotland, where ten years ago, after being faced with similar
0:38:03 > 0:38:05levels of violence on the streets, the Government started to treat
0:38:05 > 0:38:08knife crime as a health issue?
0:38:08 > 0:38:12The result appears to have been a dramatic improvement
0:38:12 > 0:38:15and the Met Police Commissioner, Cressida Dick, says the capital
0:38:15 > 0:38:16should now follow suit.
0:38:16 > 0:38:18But what exactly would it mean in practice?
0:38:18 > 0:38:24Andrew has been to Scotland to find out.
0:38:24 > 0:38:28The back half of the 20th century saw Scotland, and Glasgow
0:38:28 > 0:38:30in particular, become victim to an epidemic of knife crime
0:38:30 > 0:38:31which claimed hundreds of lives.
0:38:31 > 0:38:35This is Desmond.
0:38:35 > 0:38:38He witnessed knife violence first-hand from a very young age
0:38:38 > 0:38:40and eventually became an offender as well, before turning
0:38:40 > 0:38:44his life around.
0:38:44 > 0:38:46I was brought up with a mother on drugs.
0:38:46 > 0:38:51Her partners were always violent, so it was always knives
0:38:51 > 0:38:54getting thrown about or scissors, like kitchen knives.
0:38:54 > 0:38:57I was only a kid, so they are scary, that is protection to them,
0:38:57 > 0:38:59so a knife will protect me.
0:38:59 > 0:39:02Like people say, if you carry a knife, you intend to use it.
0:39:02 > 0:39:04If you throw a knife at someone for a fight,
0:39:04 > 0:39:09I either use it at them or they take it off me and they use it on me,
0:39:09 > 0:39:12so I was in a fight in Glasgow, I was selling drugs.
0:39:12 > 0:39:16And someone tried to take my drugs off me.
0:39:16 > 0:39:18I had to pull my knife out.
0:39:18 > 0:39:22It was the first time I went to use it and I was scared.
0:39:22 > 0:39:24"I need to show them I am not scared."
0:39:24 > 0:39:25So I just stabbed the guy.
0:39:25 > 0:39:26But I didn't stab him...
0:39:26 > 0:39:30I didn't know where I was going to stab him, but I stabbed him
0:39:30 > 0:39:33and I stabbed him in the side and I stabbed him and I thought,
0:39:33 > 0:39:35it wasn't as bad as what I thought it was.
0:39:35 > 0:39:38I thought, I can do that again.
0:39:38 > 0:39:40I don't know what the feeling was, but it was like power.
0:39:40 > 0:39:44For years, people tried and failed to find a solution.
0:39:44 > 0:39:47A little over a decade ago, things in Scotland had
0:39:47 > 0:39:51got incredibly serious.
0:39:51 > 0:39:54A report by the United Nations found that it was the most violent country
0:39:54 > 0:39:57in all of the developed world.
0:39:57 > 0:40:00You were three times more likely to be assaulted if you were a Scot
0:40:00 > 0:40:04than if you were American.
0:40:04 > 0:40:06And 30 times more likely than if you were Japanese.
0:40:06 > 0:40:10But since then, there has been a remarkable change.
0:40:10 > 0:40:18Since the mid-noughties, the murder rate has halved.
0:40:19 > 0:40:21Crimes involving handling an offensive weapon are down by two
0:40:21 > 0:40:24thirds and violence is at the lowest rate for nearly half a century.
0:40:24 > 0:40:28All of this has happened at the same time that something called a public
0:40:28 > 0:40:30health approach has been taken to the issue.
0:40:30 > 0:40:32Fundamental to that change was a group of medics.
0:40:32 > 0:40:34We were all seeing huge numbers of people coming through hospital
0:40:34 > 0:40:38doors who had been injured as a result of violence and we felt
0:40:38 > 0:40:40that we wanted to do something about that.
0:40:40 > 0:40:41The World Health Organization had recently recommended trying
0:40:41 > 0:40:47to understand violence as if it was a disease.
0:40:47 > 0:40:50If you get involved in a situation where your friends are involved
0:40:50 > 0:40:53in violence, it's likely to spread throughout your friend group
0:40:53 > 0:40:57and we had a big problem ten years ago with young people hanging
0:40:57 > 0:40:59about in gangs and that was just something that became expected
0:40:59 > 0:41:02of that kind of social structure.
0:41:02 > 0:41:05So it's kind of like an infection.
0:41:05 > 0:41:07And the public health approach means using scientific methodology
0:41:07 > 0:41:10to treat violence like a virus.
0:41:10 > 0:41:16Essentially, the public health approach involves trying to decide
0:41:16 > 0:41:18what your problem is, so you obviously need some
0:41:18 > 0:41:19data and some analysis.
0:41:19 > 0:41:22You then have a look at what interventions might work
0:41:22 > 0:41:25to deal with the problem and then test them out.
0:41:25 > 0:41:28And if they work, you scale them up and try to reach as many people
0:41:28 > 0:41:36as you possibly can.
0:41:36 > 0:41:38It was an idea taken up by the Scottish authorities,
0:41:38 > 0:41:41helped by a new body called the violence reduction unit.
0:41:41 > 0:41:43The new approach tied together schools, hospitals, youth services -
0:41:43 > 0:41:45whowever could be shown to make a real difference.
0:41:45 > 0:41:49The key thing here is to recognise that if you want to tackle the issue
0:41:49 > 0:41:52of violent crime and knife crime in particular is not to simply think
0:41:52 > 0:41:55it is about increasing the sentences for individuals who are convicted
0:41:55 > 0:41:57of these crimes, that it is simply about more policing.
0:41:57 > 0:42:00The criminal justice system has an important part to play,
0:42:00 > 0:42:03but the key to it is preventing it from happening in the first place.
0:42:03 > 0:42:09That is about working with young people who maybe get
0:42:09 > 0:42:11involved in violent crime, maybe carrying knives, so trying
0:42:11 > 0:42:13to understand exactly why they are carrying knives and why
0:42:13 > 0:42:15they think they need to get involved in violence.
0:42:15 > 0:42:18And what you can do to prevent them from getting involved
0:42:18 > 0:42:19in it in the first place.
0:42:19 > 0:42:22Now part of that solution is Des who we met at
0:42:22 > 0:42:24the beginning of this report.
0:42:24 > 0:42:26He has been going around schools, warning young people away
0:42:26 > 0:42:27from the path he took.
0:42:27 > 0:42:28Life is a circle.
0:42:28 > 0:42:31As long as one person can change, that one person can help someone
0:42:31 > 0:42:33else change and just go round in a circle.
0:42:33 > 0:42:37The more people that we get to help people, the more people that we can
0:42:37 > 0:42:40get to give someone a helping hand, you can change the world.
0:42:40 > 0:42:44Less violence, less crimes, less people in prison, less drug using.
0:42:44 > 0:42:49And here in London, people are taking notice.
0:42:49 > 0:42:53Met Police Commissioner Cressida Dick this week taking part
0:42:53 > 0:42:55in a hunt for knives in front of TV cameras,
0:42:55 > 0:42:58she says that we too should be following a public health
0:42:58 > 0:43:00approach to the problem, just like Scotland has.
0:43:00 > 0:43:02But whether we can manage the scale and success
0:43:02 > 0:43:07of the Scottish experiment is a different question altogether.
0:43:07 > 0:43:10I am joined in the studio by Teme from Forefront,
0:43:10 > 0:43:13an organisation which helps young people to escape a life of violence.
0:43:13 > 0:43:15And the deputy mayor for policing and crime, Sophie Linden.
0:43:15 > 0:43:17Welcome to both of you.
0:43:17 > 0:43:20Sophie Linden, first of all, are you signed up to adopting this
0:43:20 > 0:43:21public health approach?
0:43:21 > 0:43:22Absolutely.
0:43:22 > 0:43:24I mean, this is...
0:43:24 > 0:43:26We have learnt the lessons from Scotland and from
0:43:26 > 0:43:29elsewhere, such as New York.
0:43:29 > 0:43:32We published a strategy to tackle knife crime last year where we very
0:43:32 > 0:43:37clearly put a public health agenda into the middle of it.
0:43:37 > 0:43:40We can only tackle knife crime if it is not just around policing
0:43:40 > 0:43:42and the criminal justice service, as the package says,
0:43:42 > 0:43:44but by working with schools, families, communities
0:43:44 > 0:43:45and with the health service.
0:43:45 > 0:43:48So how much money have you pledged to actually financing
0:43:48 > 0:43:49and working in this way?
0:43:49 > 0:43:56In the face of massive government cuts across England
0:43:56 > 0:43:59and Wales and in London, schools are facing a £99 million
0:43:59 > 0:44:03funding gap next year alone, the mayor is investing in putting
0:44:03 > 0:44:05money upfront in terms of preventative work
0:44:05 > 0:44:07with young people, but also investing in policing.
0:44:07 > 0:44:10But frankly, that's not going to be enough.
0:44:10 > 0:44:13The Government needs to step up and reverse the cuts.
0:44:13 > 0:44:16London has seen 30 youth centres close over the course
0:44:16 > 0:44:18of the last administration.
0:44:18 > 0:44:23This is having a real impact on the lives of young people.
0:44:23 > 0:44:25Could the mayor be contributing more?
0:44:25 > 0:44:27Would you like to see Sadiq Khan pledging more money,
0:44:27 > 0:44:28before you go to central government?
0:44:28 > 0:44:31In the face of really large government cuts,
0:44:31 > 0:44:34the mayor is putting the money in that he can, but it's not
0:44:34 > 0:44:36going to fill that gap.
0:44:36 > 0:44:38The Government needs to step up, if it is serious
0:44:38 > 0:44:39about tackling violence.
0:44:39 > 0:44:42How much money do you think is required to fund a successful
0:44:42 > 0:44:45public health approach?
0:44:45 > 0:44:48Well, we know, after years of underfunding, that 30 youth
0:44:48 > 0:44:49centres in London have closed, that's about 13,000
0:44:49 > 0:44:51places for young people.
0:44:51 > 0:44:59As I have said already, schools are facing a funding gap...
0:45:04 > 0:45:06Sure, but what sort of money are you talking about?
0:45:06 > 0:45:09Well, we need to look at exactly what filling that gap
0:45:09 > 0:45:12and what we have done is we have put money in and invested money
0:45:12 > 0:45:15into services and in policing and we need the Government to step
0:45:15 > 0:45:17up and put the money where it is needed.
0:45:17 > 0:45:19Jackie Doyle-Price, should the Government be putting,
0:45:19 > 0:45:21central government, real cash behind this sort of approach?
0:45:21 > 0:45:24What is a crisis in terms of knife crime in London?
0:45:24 > 0:45:27The reality is, the Government can only spend as much money as it
0:45:27 > 0:45:28collects from people, taxpayers.
0:45:28 > 0:45:31Therefore, we need to make the choice about how we spend it.
0:45:31 > 0:45:33What I would say, however, is that investing in this kind
0:45:33 > 0:45:35of programme actually saves, because we obviously take
0:45:35 > 0:45:37cost out of policing, if we can actually get
0:45:37 > 0:45:40the behavioural change, but it will take time to actually
0:45:40 > 0:45:42embed a system where we are changing young people's behaviour
0:45:42 > 0:45:44and people are spending less activities carrying knives.
0:45:44 > 0:45:46Right, but you would then see more funds?
0:45:46 > 0:45:49You would like to see more funds going from central government
0:45:49 > 0:45:51because, in the long term, it would save money?
0:45:51 > 0:45:53We need to be smarter about how we spend.
0:45:53 > 0:45:54Have you, Sophie, visited the violence
0:45:54 > 0:45:55reduction unit in Glasgow?
0:45:55 > 0:45:58I have met the present leader of the violence
0:45:58 > 0:45:59reduction unit in Glasgow.
0:45:59 > 0:46:01We've certainly looked at it when we were developing
0:46:01 > 0:46:03the knife crime strategy and many of the things
0:46:03 > 0:46:05they have been doing, and they have been doing them
0:46:05 > 0:46:08for years, and that is very, very important, there are not
0:46:08 > 0:46:09short-term solutions to this.
0:46:09 > 0:46:12Do you think it is important you went up there and actually
0:46:12 > 0:46:14learnt the lessons face-to-face and see the unit in operation?
0:46:14 > 0:46:17We are always keen to learn lessons and we will always make
0:46:17 > 0:46:18sure we can learn them.
0:46:18 > 0:46:21Right, are you going to set up a violence reduction unit along
0:46:21 > 0:46:22the same sorts of lines?
0:46:22 > 0:46:25We have a specific unit within the mayor's office of police
0:46:25 > 0:46:27and crime looking at violence and across London.
0:46:27 > 0:46:29Of course, Scotland is very different to London.
0:46:29 > 0:46:31We have 32 boroughs and we have different mechanisms
0:46:31 > 0:46:33and governments, but absolutely, we want to make sure
0:46:33 > 0:46:35that we have this public health approach alongside really
0:46:35 > 0:46:37good, effective enforcement.
0:46:37 > 0:46:40What is your reaction?
0:46:40 > 0:46:43This is obviously the sort of rhetoric and warm words
0:46:43 > 0:46:46you want to hear from the police, but do you think this is the real
0:46:46 > 0:46:49action that is needed to tackle knife crime in this way?
0:46:49 > 0:46:53I have personally visited the VRU in Scotland and I think we have
0:46:53 > 0:46:58learned a lot of lessons but we're implementing them, we are not
0:46:58 > 0:46:59putting them in practice.
0:46:59 > 0:47:02In terms of endorsing a public health approach, that is one thing,
0:47:02 > 0:47:04but actually taking the steps required to implement
0:47:04 > 0:47:07the public health approach, that is something different
0:47:07 > 0:47:09which I do not think we have seen enough movement towards that yet.
0:47:09 > 0:47:12Do you think the commitment is there to do something?
0:47:12 > 0:47:14I think a lot of people have made a commitment publicly.
0:47:14 > 0:47:17If we can see this endorsed on paper, through the strategies
0:47:17 > 0:47:20and policies, then we can have more faith that it might take shape.
0:47:20 > 0:47:21One of the problems, Sophie, historically,
0:47:21 > 0:47:24has been a lack of trust between black and minority
0:47:24 > 0:47:25ethnic communities and the police in London.
0:47:25 > 0:47:27What are you doing to improve that?
0:47:27 > 0:47:30So, just in terms of the policing, we are reintroducing neighbourhood
0:47:30 > 0:47:33policing which I think is very important aspect of ensuring that
0:47:33 > 0:47:39local communities know that police and the police
0:47:39 > 0:47:41know their local community.
0:47:41 > 0:47:44But also, we have got a commitment and we already have about 300
0:47:44 > 0:47:46Metropolitan Police officers in the secondary schools of London
0:47:46 > 0:47:49working with young people so that the first engagement
0:47:49 > 0:47:52and encounter with the police is not in that confrontational situation.
0:47:52 > 0:47:54One of the things that I think the community finds very difficult
0:47:54 > 0:47:56is the issue of stop and search.
0:47:56 > 0:48:00Why are black people four times more likely to be stopped and searched?
0:48:00 > 0:48:07We recognise some of the complexities around stop
0:48:07 > 0:48:10and search and some of the worries young people have in London
0:48:10 > 0:48:13around stop and search, but stop and search is an effective
0:48:13 > 0:48:15tactic for keeping knives and weapons off the street.
0:48:15 > 0:48:18And what the mayor and myself have been saying, and the commissioner,
0:48:18 > 0:48:26the commissioner said this week and I was there on the knife sweep
0:48:27 > 0:48:29that you filmed, is you should expect an increase in
0:48:29 > 0:48:31stop and search over the next coming months.
0:48:31 > 0:48:34Where there is an increase in knife crime and an increase in violence,
0:48:34 > 0:48:37you should expect an increase in stop and search.
0:48:37 > 0:48:38With more black people being stopped, disproportionately.
0:48:38 > 0:48:41What's important is that stop and search is done effectively,
0:48:41 > 0:48:44it is done in an intelligence-led way and to ensure it is
0:48:44 > 0:48:45those people who are...who we have got intelligence
0:48:45 > 0:48:47of carrying knives that are stopped
0:48:47 > 0:48:50and searched in an appropriate way and in the right way.
0:48:50 > 0:48:52Temi, do you welcome an increase in stop and search?
0:48:52 > 0:48:54No, I don't, I think when campaigners and activists
0:48:54 > 0:48:57like myself make these comments about stop and search, sometimes
0:48:57 > 0:48:58they can be misinterpreted.
0:48:58 > 0:49:00We are not saying that in the interactions where weapons
0:49:00 > 0:49:05are found and removed that stop and search is bad, we are saying
0:49:05 > 0:49:07a blanket roll-out every time we see the figures
0:49:07 > 0:49:09to say there's an increase
0:49:09 > 0:49:11in violence, that the only approach we have is a rapid
0:49:11 > 0:49:13increase in stop and search, that's not effective.
0:49:13 > 0:49:16And I will just say one thing about that relationship
0:49:16 > 0:49:17between young people, particularly young black
0:49:17 > 0:49:19people and the police, and I've made this argument before.
0:49:19 > 0:49:22These young people, when they feel their lives are under threat,
0:49:22 > 0:49:23they are not calling the police.
0:49:23 > 0:49:26There is no trust or relationship for them to use the police
0:49:26 > 0:49:29as the conflict reduction they are supposed to be.
0:49:29 > 0:49:31So the increase in stop and search, that just further
0:49:31 > 0:49:32erodes that relationship.
0:49:32 > 0:49:33Do you accept that?
0:49:33 > 0:49:35I absolutely recognise we have an issue with certain
0:49:35 > 0:49:38sections of young people, not just black young people but some
0:49:38 > 0:49:40white young people as well, where trust and confidence
0:49:40 > 0:49:41is an issue.
0:49:41 > 0:49:43And stop and search is one of the motivating factors.
0:49:43 > 0:49:46Stop and search can be an issue in that.
0:49:46 > 0:49:48What matters is that it's done effectively but what also matters
0:49:48 > 0:49:50is that there's good transparency and accountability and officers
0:49:50 > 0:49:51are held to account.
0:49:51 > 0:49:54Body worn video, which has been rolled out across London,
0:49:54 > 0:49:57is a game changer in this because both sides have a record
0:49:57 > 0:49:58of the interaction.
0:49:58 > 0:49:59It is reducing complaints as we speak.
0:49:59 > 0:50:02Do you support the shift towards an increase in stop
0:50:02 > 0:50:03and search again, Sarah?
0:50:03 > 0:50:06I think what we have to do is look at this in the round, right?
0:50:06 > 0:50:08So what do we want London to be?
0:50:08 > 0:50:11We want London to be the safest city in the world, don't we?
0:50:11 > 0:50:13That's what we want it to be.
0:50:13 > 0:50:16We want people to come here, to live here, to be content
0:50:16 > 0:50:17and our greatest asset...
0:50:17 > 0:50:19No one would disagree with that.
0:50:19 > 0:50:21Our greatest asset in doing that is our young people.
0:50:21 > 0:50:24They are the ones that are going to create the society
0:50:24 > 0:50:25we want to live in.
0:50:25 > 0:50:28So, should stop and search be increased on the streets of London?
0:50:28 > 0:50:31So, just to finish, the first aim is to enable our young people to be
0:50:31 > 0:50:34the wonderful people they can be and to achieve what they want
0:50:34 > 0:50:36to achieve, and to have safe and happy lives.
0:50:36 > 0:50:40Part of the policing aspect of this is stop and search, of course it is,
0:50:40 > 0:50:43but it's a much bigger problem and it's more about schools.
0:50:43 > 0:50:44The number of expulsions has gone up dramatically.
0:50:44 > 0:50:46What happens to those children in London?
0:50:46 > 0:50:49What is it like to be a young person in London?
0:50:49 > 0:50:51What messages are we giving them that all we are going
0:50:51 > 0:50:55on about is the kind of crimes and not their ability to do
0:50:55 > 0:50:56what they want to do?
0:50:56 > 0:50:58So the public health approach they have done
0:50:58 > 0:51:01in Scotland that has taken ten, 15 years, that looks at every single
0:51:01 > 0:51:04aspect of young people's lives and says what we need to put
0:51:04 > 0:51:07in place, surely that's the right approach and that's where you start.
0:51:07 > 0:51:08So is the Mayor, Sadiq Khan, correct?
0:51:08 > 0:51:12Do you support his policy shift increasing stop
0:51:12 > 0:51:14and search again rather than taking the holistic approach?
0:51:14 > 0:51:17Exactly as Sophie said, it is a very complicated issue
0:51:17 > 0:51:20and you have got to be super careful to try to take the
0:51:20 > 0:51:27community with you.
0:51:27 > 0:51:30To me, we have to look at the results stop and search bring.
0:51:30 > 0:51:33So at the moment, something like one in three stop and searches,
0:51:33 > 0:51:35they find something which shows they are targeting appropriately.
0:51:35 > 0:51:39Back in the day, that was like one in ten, which was far worse,
0:51:39 > 0:51:42and led to huge understandable conflict in our community.
0:51:42 > 0:51:45So we need to do it properly, and there's a role to it but it's
0:51:45 > 0:51:50nowhere near the biggest part of the solution.
0:51:50 > 0:51:52Temi, one of issues is that reducing stop and search doesn't seem
0:51:52 > 0:51:55to have increased trust, so in a way it hasn't
0:51:55 > 0:51:56solved the problem.
0:51:56 > 0:51:58When stop and search was cut, when it was reduced,
0:51:58 > 0:52:00it hasn't led to this better relationship between black
0:52:00 > 0:52:03and minority ethnic communities and the police.
0:52:03 > 0:52:06I completely agree with you. Let me be blunt about it.
0:52:06 > 0:52:09You're not just going to do one tactic that is going to reverse
0:52:09 > 0:52:11decades of mistrust and a bad relationship that's
0:52:11 > 0:52:12been constructed.
0:52:12 > 0:52:14It's an intergenerational problem, it's a historical problem,
0:52:14 > 0:52:18so stop and search is a continuation of the sus laws we saw decades ago.
0:52:18 > 0:52:20Young people know this, their communities have
0:52:20 > 0:52:26had problems with it, their parents have had problems
0:52:26 > 0:52:28with it, their grandparents had problems with it and therefore
0:52:28 > 0:52:32it's going to take more than just this one action to build the trust
0:52:32 > 0:52:33again between these communities.
0:52:33 > 0:52:38Jackie Doyle-Price, do you think it is right to move away
0:52:38 > 0:52:41from s sort of criminal justice style approach to a purely public
0:52:41 > 0:52:44health approach in the way they did in Scotland?
0:52:44 > 0:52:45I wouldn't see it as either/or actually.
0:52:45 > 0:52:48Given that it takes time to embed behavioural change which a public
0:52:48 > 0:52:50health approach is designed to achieve, you've got
0:52:50 > 0:52:52to have a programme of enforcement alongside that.
0:52:52 > 0:52:55It is carrot and stick at the end of the day.
0:52:55 > 0:52:58It is so serious because of the numbers that we are talking
0:52:58 > 0:53:01about and the tragedies we see every week or so on the evening news,
0:53:01 > 0:53:06particularly over Christmas and New Year period.
0:53:06 > 0:53:09Do you think there need to be tougher mandatory sentences
0:53:09 > 0:53:10for carrying knives?
0:53:10 > 0:53:12If there was tougher sentences, you know, and that worked,
0:53:12 > 0:53:16there would be no crime in America, right?
0:53:16 > 0:53:19If we just locked people up and that was the solution,
0:53:19 > 0:53:20everything would be fixed.
0:53:20 > 0:53:22We've got a binary decision to make, either things carry
0:53:22 > 0:53:26on as they are and knife crime goes up and down as it does,
0:53:26 > 0:53:30or we do something about it and the only way to look
0:53:30 > 0:53:33at it is to look at it from a point of view of poverty,
0:53:33 > 0:53:34aspiration, inequality, jobs, mental health,
0:53:34 > 0:53:36education, and put all of those pillars in place.
0:53:36 > 0:53:38Right, do you agree with that?
0:53:38 > 0:53:43Well, as with all things, we tend to, when it falls
0:53:43 > 0:53:44into criminal activity, that's where society
0:53:44 > 0:53:45has failed so the more
0:53:45 > 0:53:47you can intervene early to prevent these things,
0:53:47 > 0:53:49that's absolutely the right way to go.
0:53:49 > 0:53:51Right, because do you accept, Sophie, that the problem
0:53:51 > 0:53:54here is that actually a lot of the young people in London
0:53:54 > 0:53:56are more frightened of being attacked and injured with a knife
0:53:56 > 0:53:58than they are about going to prison?
0:53:58 > 0:54:01So when we were developing the knife crime strategy
0:54:01 > 0:54:04which we published last year, and it is actively being delivered
0:54:04 > 0:54:06at the moment, we spoke to many young people,
0:54:06 > 0:54:09in prison and out of prison, and they told us they were worried
0:54:09 > 0:54:12and scared about carrying a knife.
0:54:12 > 0:54:15I absolutely agree with Sarah and with Jackie and Temi that this
0:54:15 > 0:54:16has to be much wider.
0:54:16 > 0:54:19It is not as the film said, it's not simply criminal justice
0:54:19 > 0:54:20or simply enforcement.
0:54:20 > 0:54:22They have their place, they are important.
0:54:22 > 0:54:26Sentencing, stop and search enforcement, but we have to get
0:54:26 > 0:54:30to the root causes, and in order to do that we have to really face up
0:54:30 > 0:54:34and the Government has to face up to the fact the cuts and the money
0:54:34 > 0:54:36coming out of those vital services is really impacting
0:54:36 > 0:54:37on young people's lives.
0:54:37 > 0:54:40But I say again, we can only spend what we collect from taxpayers
0:54:40 > 0:54:44and that's causing tough choices and decisions to be made,
0:54:44 > 0:54:46but we have to decide what our priorities
0:54:46 > 0:54:48are and what we need to tackle.
0:54:48 > 0:54:50I would say tackling violence is an absolute priority.
0:54:50 > 0:54:53Sophie and Temi, thank you both very much for coming in.
0:54:53 > 0:54:57With the demise of the construction and private public service provider
0:54:57 > 0:54:59Carillion, just how will London cope in shoring up the damage done
0:54:59 > 0:55:04to transport, libraries, prisons, police training and much more?
0:55:04 > 0:55:06And should the capital be calling time on outsourcing such public
0:55:06 > 0:55:08services to private companies?
0:55:08 > 0:55:11Jerry Thomas has this.
0:55:11 > 0:55:14Since it went bust on Monday, Carillion's vast network
0:55:14 > 0:55:17of operations across London have been left in the lurch.
0:55:17 > 0:55:23They were involved in the construction of more than 1000
0:55:23 > 0:55:26homes in the capital, in what may be a blow to
0:55:26 > 0:55:31the Mayor's house-building target.
0:55:31 > 0:55:34One of Carillion's largest public sector contracts was a £12 million
0:55:34 > 0:55:36refurbishment St Helier's Hospital in south London.
0:55:36 > 0:55:38The authorities have acted to ensure the continuation of services,
0:55:38 > 0:55:41but it's sparking a debate about the merits of PFI contracts.
0:55:41 > 0:55:44A National Audit Office report this week said hospitals built under PFI
0:55:44 > 0:55:46contracts cost 70% more than if the Government
0:55:46 > 0:55:49borrowed the money itself.
0:55:49 > 0:55:50Carillion was responsible for maintaining some
0:55:50 > 0:55:56of London's largest prisons, from Pentonville to Wandsworth.
0:55:56 > 0:56:04Even before the company failed this week, the conditions in the prisons
0:56:04 > 0:56:06they ran had been severely criticised by the independent
0:56:06 > 0:56:08monitoring board.
0:56:08 > 0:56:10Meanwhile library services in Croydon that have been
0:56:10 > 0:56:12run by Carillion have been brought in-house.
0:56:12 > 0:56:14The Mayor has questioned whether contracts such as these
0:56:14 > 0:56:16should have been given in the first place.
0:56:16 > 0:56:19There needs to be an urgent investigation into all that went
0:56:19 > 0:56:21on with relation to new contracts given by the Government
0:56:21 > 0:56:24to Carillion, when everyone else appeared to know this company
0:56:24 > 0:56:25was in danger.
0:56:25 > 0:56:28A collapse of this magnitude may well make it more difficult
0:56:28 > 0:56:30for the Government to justify outsourcing in the future.
0:56:30 > 0:56:34Sarah, the collapse of Carillion, this major construction company,
0:56:34 > 0:56:37involved in building 1,000 homes at the time of liquidation,
0:56:37 > 0:56:39how is that going to affect Sadiq Khan's housing target?
0:56:39 > 0:56:42We need to investigate exactly where they are involved,
0:56:42 > 0:56:47what the contracts are and what can be done about it, and the Government
0:56:47 > 0:56:50has to step in and do all of the right things in terms
0:56:50 > 0:56:53of making sure where there is public sector contracts but also
0:56:53 > 0:57:01where there's private sector contracts because these are people's
0:57:03 > 0:57:05jobs and livelihoods, and, you know, that people's jobs
0:57:05 > 0:57:07are protected and the work gets done.
0:57:07 > 0:57:11I think there's a big job of work to do first and foremost to make
0:57:11 > 0:57:13sure we are building the things we need to build.
0:57:13 > 0:57:15Network Rail has a lot of contracts with Carillion, and in Croydon
0:57:15 > 0:57:18we desperately need some upgrades to our train lines because it's
0:57:18 > 0:57:21falling over as it is, and if we don't get that investment,
0:57:21 > 0:57:25people won't be able to get to work and everything will grind to a halt
0:57:25 > 0:57:26so we need to sort this out.
0:57:26 > 0:57:29Setting up a taskforce but going much further in terms
0:57:29 > 0:57:31of making sure people's jobs and pensions are supported as well.
0:57:31 > 0:57:34I've had e-mails, I don't know about you, from people who've got
0:57:34 > 0:57:36Carillion pensions who are really worried about what's
0:57:36 > 0:57:37going to happen to them.
0:57:37 > 0:57:42Jackie, do you think there is a philosophical argument
0:57:42 > 0:57:45now to have that there should be an end to big public sector
0:57:45 > 0:57:47contracts, delivering vital services being given to a private company
0:57:47 > 0:57:48like Carillion in the future?
0:57:48 > 0:57:51I wouldn't go anywhere near as far as that, Jo,
0:57:51 > 0:57:53but I think there is an issue about how we manage
0:57:53 > 0:57:54public sector contracts.
0:57:54 > 0:57:58I spent five years on the Public Accounts Committee and saw a lot
0:57:58 > 0:58:05of these contracts up close, and I think there is an issue
0:58:05 > 0:58:07about how some departments manage contracting out.
0:58:07 > 0:58:09We could be a whole lot better at this.
0:58:09 > 0:58:12I think we've ended up with a system which has tended to generate big
0:58:12 > 0:58:15monopolies in the private sector doing public sector work,
0:58:15 > 0:58:17and there are a lot of risks associated with that.
0:58:17 > 0:58:19If there's any learning to be done from this,
0:58:19 > 0:58:22I think that's the lesson we need to really act on.
0:58:22 > 0:58:26Right, do you accept that the Government's defence
0:58:26 > 0:58:29is they don't want to put a private firm going bust, the cost
0:58:29 > 0:58:31of that, onto the taxpayer, on to the London taxpayer?
0:58:31 > 0:58:35I think we've got to look at the cost of lots of these massive
0:58:35 > 0:58:37contracts that are costing the taxpayer lots of money
0:58:37 > 0:58:40in the first place and I think we need to have a look at how
0:58:40 > 0:58:41we do this.
0:58:41 > 0:58:43Should it end, then, that relationship...
0:58:43 > 0:58:45Should public contracts be given to private companies
0:58:45 > 0:58:46like Carillion in the future?
0:58:46 > 0:58:49I think there's a balance to be struck, and as Jeremy Corbyn said,
0:58:49 > 0:58:52where things are failing we need to look at that but in the main
0:58:52 > 0:58:57we want public sector contracts to be within the public sector.
0:58:57 > 0:59:00So you do want to try to bring everything in-house?
0:59:00 > 0:59:07Yes, if I could try and just say two things that have happened.
0:59:07 > 0:59:10One is that Government ministers didn't meet with Carillion to talk
0:59:10 > 0:59:16about this issue over the last few months, and the other is the banks,
0:59:16 > 0:59:19one of the chief execs of one of the banks that decided not
0:59:19 > 0:59:21to support Carillion said that the decision didn't even
0:59:21 > 0:59:22come across his desk.
0:59:22 > 0:59:25So here we have a decision about tens of thousands of jobs
0:59:25 > 0:59:27and it's not going anywhere near ministers or the chief execs
0:59:27 > 0:59:32of banks, so clearly that structure is not working.
0:59:32 > 0:59:34And the independent monitoring board, Jackie, have repeatedly
0:59:34 > 0:59:39criticised Carillion for poor maintenance of prisons
0:59:39 > 0:59:42but they were able to hold onto the contracts - why?
0:59:42 > 0:59:45Again, that is something we need to look at in terms of how
0:59:45 > 0:59:48we manage these contracts because there is a lot of benefit
0:59:48 > 0:59:49from transferring the risk to private sector providers.
0:59:49 > 0:59:54What are they?
0:59:54 > 0:59:55Value for money, you can hold them to account.
0:59:55 > 0:59:57Let's not pretend that when we had companies in national ownership
0:59:57 > 1:00:00throughout the '70s everything was perfect, it was not.
1:00:00 > 1:00:02There was a reason we moved to outsourcing things
1:00:02 > 1:00:03to the private sector.
1:00:03 > 1:00:06But it only works if the contract is suitable and fit for purpose,
1:00:06 > 1:00:09and I think ministers and civil servants need to be a lot more
1:00:09 > 1:00:11vigilant about making sure it will deliver for the taxpayer.
1:00:11 > 1:00:15All right, well thank you to both of you for being our guests
1:00:15 > 1:00:16today on the programme.
1:00:16 > 1:00:24That is Jackie Doyle-Price and Sarah Jones, and it's back to Sarah.
1:00:25 > 1:00:27Welcome back.
1:00:27 > 1:00:29Now, the Ukip leader, Henry Bolton, faces his party's
1:00:29 > 1:00:32ruling body later today, who will decide whether they think
1:00:32 > 1:00:35he should be sacked after less than four months into the job.
1:00:35 > 1:00:38The showdown comes after a week of damaging headlines
1:00:38 > 1:00:41about his private life.
1:00:41 > 1:00:4354-year-old Henry Bolton met 25-year old Jo Marney
1:00:43 > 1:00:51at a Ukip party last month.
1:00:55 > 1:00:58He left his wife on 23rd December and spent Boxing Day
1:00:58 > 1:00:59with the former model.
1:00:59 > 1:01:02Last weekend, the Mail on Sunday revealed that Ms Marney had sent
1:01:02 > 1:01:03racist text messages about Prince Harry's
1:01:03 > 1:01:04fiance, Meghan Markle.
1:01:04 > 1:01:07She said Harry's black American fiance would taint the royal family
1:01:07 > 1:01:10with her seed and pave the way for the way for a black king.
1:01:10 > 1:01:12On Monday, she was suspended from Ukip.
1:01:12 > 1:01:14Mr Bolton said he would end the romantic element
1:01:14 > 1:01:15of the relationship.
1:01:15 > 1:01:17But just two days later, they were spotted having dinner at
1:01:17 > 1:01:19a swanky restaurant in Westminster.
1:01:19 > 1:01:20She later went back to his flat.
1:01:20 > 1:01:24But Mr Bolton insists that was just to collect her bags and he provided
1:01:24 > 1:01:28a taxi receipt to prove it.
1:01:28 > 1:01:31He says he still loves her, it was "the happiest I've been
1:01:31 > 1:01:34in years" during their whirlwind romance and hasn't ruled out
1:01:34 > 1:01:36re-kindling the relationship.
1:01:36 > 1:01:36And Henry Bolton joins us now.
1:01:36 > 1:01:42Can you rekindle your relationship with the woolly executive? What do
1:01:42 > 1:01:49you expect the outcome of the meeting will be? -- with the
1:01:49 > 1:01:53executive.The meeting was set up to discuss the present situation. They
1:01:53 > 1:01:56may decide to have a vote of no-confidence and if they do and it
1:01:56 > 1:02:02goes against me, it goes to the membership.You could at that point
1:02:02 > 1:02:05say, the National Executive Committee do not have confidence in
1:02:05 > 1:02:10the do, I had better stand down.I could do, but I will not. There are
1:02:10 > 1:02:14number of elements here, the most important is the NEC should have its
1:02:14 > 1:02:18eye on the political poll, the need for the party get itself on its feet
1:02:18 > 1:02:23and deliver an effective message in terms of the Brexit debate and how
1:02:23 > 1:02:29policies shape for the UK post-Brexit -- the political ball.
1:02:29 > 1:02:33They will probably also have questions about your personal life,
1:02:33 > 1:02:39and this is an opportunity for clear this up. On Monday, you told us your
1:02:39 > 1:02:43romantic relationship with Jo Marney was over and then you were seen
1:02:43 > 1:02:48having dinner together and on the tube going home after dinner, is the
1:02:48 > 1:02:52relationship over?I am not going to go into the details. That
1:02:52 > 1:02:58relationship in terms of the party is now over, Ms Marney has resigned.
1:02:58 > 1:03:01She was suspended.She resigned as of yesterday. She made an apology to
1:03:01 > 1:03:05the members yesterday for the embarrassment caused and any
1:03:05 > 1:03:09disruption and problems caused for the party. I think that draws a line
1:03:09 > 1:03:16under that.It doesn't because you said publicly on Monday that the
1:03:16 > 1:03:19relationship was over and then you are seen having dinner with somebody
1:03:19 > 1:03:26who's views, and she has revealed, she had to apologise for, if you
1:03:26 > 1:03:31judge someone by the company you keep, you should not have dinner
1:03:31 > 1:03:35with her.We have information out in the public domain that shows, that
1:03:35 > 1:03:40proves, there is an insurgency going on within the party. Some of that
1:03:40 > 1:03:45information came from her, in addition, she had a number of death
1:03:45 > 1:03:48threat she wanted to discuss and she did have to collect things from my
1:03:48 > 1:03:54apartment. That is all done.You will not be having dinner with her
1:03:54 > 1:03:59again?I may do. The romantic element is over. It would be inhuman
1:03:59 > 1:04:04to simply walk away and cut the link entirely. I will not do that.This
1:04:04 > 1:04:07is someone who has embarrassed the party and the leadership by sending
1:04:07 > 1:04:14racist messages about Meghan Markle but you think it is appropriate for
1:04:14 > 1:04:17you to continue?I have for the content of the messages, they are
1:04:17 > 1:04:24appalling, and she has admitted that. -- I abhor the content of the
1:04:24 > 1:04:30messages. My job is to get the party on its feet. At the moment, everyone
1:04:30 > 1:04:34is talking about Brexit, but actually, leaving the EU is not the
1:04:34 > 1:04:38point, the point is getting back our independence for this country in
1:04:38 > 1:04:43every area of administration, that has been the objective.There are
1:04:43 > 1:04:46lots of people who did not know you were the leader of Ukip until this
1:04:46 > 1:04:52hit the front pages! You have not been doing a great job of getting
1:04:52 > 1:04:56Ukip into the Brexit debate and instead this relationship has
1:04:56 > 1:04:59brought the party in to distribute and surely if you want this to be
1:04:59 > 1:05:05about the politics, you should stand down? -- brought the party into
1:05:05 > 1:05:09disrepute.I am delivering the message now, we have an agenda to
1:05:09 > 1:05:16move forward in terms of internal reform to build the solid base. But
1:05:16 > 1:05:20it is necessary, they have been neglected. They need to be rebuilt
1:05:20 > 1:05:24and then we can move forward politically. That is my core
1:05:24 > 1:05:27purpose. Any other debate is a distraction and I will not let
1:05:27 > 1:05:31myself get drawn down that route. She has left the party, we move
1:05:31 > 1:05:36forward.Your behaviour started the debate.Are we not talking about
1:05:36 > 1:05:41this leadership thing being a moral court as to what the state of my
1:05:41 > 1:05:45marriage and personal relationships is? What is important to the nation
1:05:45 > 1:05:49and the voters under 17.4 million people who voted to leave the EU is
1:05:49 > 1:05:52that this country gets its independence back from Brussels and
1:05:52 > 1:05:56that we can move forward on that basis.You are suggesting we should
1:05:56 > 1:06:00not have a period moral debate about whether it was right for you to
1:06:00 > 1:06:07leave your wife or have a much younger girlfriend, people are upset
1:06:07 > 1:06:11about you keeping company with someone who has sent offensive and
1:06:11 > 1:06:14racist messages and this is someone you want to continue having some
1:06:14 > 1:06:21kind of relationship with and that questions your judgment -- prurient
1:06:21 > 1:06:26moral debate.I do not think that it is good for British politics at all
1:06:26 > 1:06:29or the nation to start focusing on someone's domestic affairs rather
1:06:29 > 1:06:34than the politics they are delivering. With this country, we
1:06:34 > 1:06:40need to work hard, this party needs to work hard to unite the various
1:06:40 > 1:06:42leave campaigns, to mobilise them and take forward the cause for
1:06:42 > 1:06:46independence and that is what I am absolutely determined to do and I am
1:06:46 > 1:06:51not going to let this party be disrupted by internal squabbling
1:06:51 > 1:06:54which has exploited my own domestic situation in order to cause
1:06:54 > 1:07:01problems.You have said in your leadership election that it would
1:07:01 > 1:07:05cripple Ukip, why? -- you said the new leadership election would
1:07:05 > 1:07:11cripple Ukip, why?It would take months, it would take us off the
1:07:11 > 1:07:14battlefield for the Brexit debate. We cannot afford to do that
1:07:14 > 1:07:19politically. At the same time, the resulting in fighting would give our
1:07:19 > 1:07:23political enemies ammunition to pull the party apart. The party, if the
1:07:23 > 1:07:27NEC makes the wrong decision today, the party will start doing that in
1:07:27 > 1:07:31itself. Politically, this party cannot afford to have a leadership
1:07:31 > 1:07:35election now.Just to be clear, regardless of whether or not the NEC
1:07:35 > 1:07:45vote to have comments in you, you will try to have confidence in you.
1:07:45 > 1:07:51I will remain in contact.Thank you, Henry Bolton. Henry Bolton says he
1:07:51 > 1:07:59wants to refocus us onto the politics of Ukip, away from his
1:07:59 > 1:08:03critical life -- personal life, do you think there is any chance?It is
1:08:03 > 1:08:07so depressing. We should be past the stage where we hold politicians so
1:08:07 > 1:08:11morally to account. I don't care about Henry Bolton's love life, it
1:08:11 > 1:08:15is not my business. I care about the fact it is the only thing I know
1:08:15 > 1:08:20about him and his leadership of the UK Independence Party at the moment.
1:08:20 > 1:08:25I do not mean to be rude, Henry, but I think you are finished, Ukip is
1:08:25 > 1:08:29finished, the sooner you accept that, the better for all the people
1:08:29 > 1:08:34who care about Brexit and the delivery of Brexit because right now
1:08:34 > 1:08:38you cannot focus on that, you are too busy, too distracted, sorting
1:08:38 > 1:08:42out this mess in your private life. Now Nigel Farage and Arron Banks are
1:08:42 > 1:08:47talking about a new movement, separate to Ukip. Is it time to put
1:08:47 > 1:08:51the party to bed and start something new?That will be dependent on the
1:08:51 > 1:08:55decision that NEC makes this afternoon. If they decide to keep me
1:08:55 > 1:08:59as leader, we will be able to move forward with the agenda of reform we
1:08:59 > 1:09:05have been talking about. If it takes another course of action, I suspect
1:09:05 > 1:09:09Isabel is right. It is a difficult challenge, absolutely, but that only
1:09:09 > 1:09:14chance for the party is to continue as it is in the present agenda of
1:09:14 > 1:09:18reforms I have initiated and taking forward. If we do not do that, quite
1:09:18 > 1:09:25frankly, I think Isabel is correct. Tom Newton Dunn?I think Ukip does
1:09:25 > 1:09:30have a future. I disagree a tiny bit with Isabel. If only it can somehow
1:09:30 > 1:09:38stay together until Theresa May finally does the deal with the EU
1:09:38 > 1:09:4327. There will be compromises in the deal, there may be payment of access
1:09:43 > 1:09:47to the single market for financial services, although Theresa May will
1:09:47 > 1:09:51not call it that. It will be some form of a fudge simply because it
1:09:51 > 1:09:56has to be. We heard Emmanuel Macron this morning, holding with Angela
1:09:56 > 1:10:00Merkel's hardline of no cherry picking. Ukip Ozma opportunity to be
1:10:00 > 1:10:13the hard-core Brexit fighters -- Ukip's opportunity. They have to
1:10:13 > 1:10:17stay, crucially, alive until that point. Personally, for Mr Bolton, I
1:10:17 > 1:10:23have a terrible feeling he will lose his job and girlfriend after this. A
1:10:23 > 1:10:26terrible individual tragedy.Steve Richards, is it necessary there is a
1:10:26 > 1:10:31voice, whether from Arron Banks, and Nigel Farage, whether it continues
1:10:31 > 1:10:37to be Ukip, is there not a wing of the Tory party, Jacob Rees-Mogg
1:10:37 > 1:10:40earlier, are they not doing the job of holding the Government to account
1:10:40 > 1:10:46and making sure they get the kind of Brexit they think people voted for?
1:10:46 > 1:10:51Partly. Some Brexit voters went to Labour because their concerns about
1:10:51 > 1:10:55being left behind were partly addressed by the Labour manifested
1:10:55 > 1:11:00at the last election. It is also about the credibility of the voice.
1:11:00 > 1:11:05The problem Ukip has had over the last 18 months is that all political
1:11:05 > 1:11:10parties are fragile, the theme of the programme today, the other big
1:11:10 > 1:11:14ones all, but when you have all of these leadership contest, all
1:11:14 > 1:11:17triggered by wacky absurd circumstances, the degree to which
1:11:17 > 1:11:24weightiness and credibility is taken away is such that it is difficult
1:11:24 > 1:11:28for a party to recover. I am with Isabel, it has reached the point
1:11:28 > 1:11:33where even though Brexit is this golden opportunity for Ukip, it has
1:11:33 > 1:11:38imploded to such an extent I cannot see how it pulls back.Would you
1:11:38 > 1:11:42welcome the return of Nigel Farage to the political scene?I would
1:11:42 > 1:11:47always welcome his return, he livens up political debate, nobody can
1:11:47 > 1:11:49doubt his passion for ensuring Brexit is delivered in the way
1:11:49 > 1:11:54voters who backed that in the referendum envisaged. There is
1:11:54 > 1:11:59clearly a vacuum. Bring it on, I say.You think it is serious, the
1:11:59 > 1:12:03idea him and Arron Banks might start something new?I do not know about
1:12:03 > 1:12:07Arron Banks but I know Nigel Farage has the appetite, he is extremely
1:12:07 > 1:12:11worried about the fate of Brexit and whether there will be some great
1:12:11 > 1:12:14betrayal of voters and I know he is thinking very carefully about what
1:12:14 > 1:12:19to do next.Would that worried the Prime Minister, if Nigel Farage was
1:12:19 > 1:12:25to come back central stage?This Brexit deal is going to disappoint
1:12:25 > 1:12:33lots of people who voted Brexit. There is political space there for a
1:12:33 > 1:12:38harder Brexit political force. But it has to have the other ingredients
1:12:38 > 1:12:41of weightiness, credibility and coherence that Ukip always struggled
1:12:41 > 1:12:46with.Quick word. It has to have a very persuasive narrator and Nigel
1:12:46 > 1:12:54Farage, like I'm or loathe him, there has been no politician in the
1:12:54 > 1:12:57current generation who can put forward a more persuasive case than
1:12:57 > 1:13:03Nigel Farage. If he comes back, very bad news for the government.Thank
1:13:03 > 1:13:07you very much to the panel and my guests today.
1:13:07 > 1:13:10And before we go, there's just time to tell you about a new podcast -
1:13:10 > 1:13:12Prime Minister's Questions with Andrew Neil.
1:13:12 > 1:13:13It's available every Wednesday afternoon,
1:13:13 > 1:13:15after Prime Minister's Questions, with highlights and analysis
1:13:15 > 1:13:16from Andrew and his guests.
1:13:16 > 1:13:18You can listen and subscribe on your phone's podcast
1:13:18 > 1:13:19apps and iPlayer radio.
1:13:19 > 1:13:20That's all for today.
1:13:20 > 1:13:23Join me again next Sunday at 11am here on BBC One.
1:13:23 > 1:13:30Until then, bye bye.