0:00:39 > 0:00:41Morning everyone, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
0:00:41 > 0:00:43I'm Sarah Smith.
0:00:43 > 0:00:46And this is the programme that will provide your essential briefing
0:00:46 > 0:00:47on everything that's moving and shaking in
0:00:47 > 0:00:49the world of politics.
0:00:49 > 0:00:52Can the Conservative Party speak with one voice on Brexit?
0:00:52 > 0:00:56As Tory splits spill out in to the open once again this week,
0:00:56 > 0:00:57can the Prime Minister reassert her authority
0:00:57 > 0:01:00over a divided party?
0:01:00 > 0:01:03We'll be speaking to the former Conservative Cabinet
0:01:03 > 0:01:05Minister, Theresa Villiers - hitherto a loyal voice,
0:01:05 > 0:01:09but who says she's now worried about Brexit being diluted.
0:01:09 > 0:01:11Is Jeremy Corbyn heading for a fight with Labour councillors?
0:01:11 > 0:01:15As local government chiefs accuse the party's ruling body of trying
0:01:15 > 0:01:16to intervene in local decisions,
0:01:16 > 0:01:24we'll be speaking to one of Jeremy Corbyn's key allies.
0:01:25 > 0:01:29In the capital, can prefab houses throw off their bad reputation and
0:01:29 > 0:01:36prove to be the answer to the housing crisis in London?
0:01:36 > 0:01:38All that coming up in the programme.
0:01:38 > 0:01:41And to help me to make sense of all the big stories today, I'm
0:01:41 > 0:01:44joined by Camilla Tominey, Rafael Behr and Rachel Shabi.
0:01:44 > 0:01:47I'm sure they certainly won't all speak with one voice.
0:01:47 > 0:01:49The newspaper headlines make pretty grim reading
0:01:49 > 0:01:50for the Government this morning.
0:01:50 > 0:01:53'Tories in Turmoil', 'Brexit betrayal',
0:01:53 > 0:01:55'PM told to raise her game'.
0:01:55 > 0:01:58Tory Brexit divisions erupted in public once again this week.
0:01:58 > 0:01:59So, is the Government's biggest priority now
0:01:59 > 0:02:07becoming its biggest headache?
0:02:12 > 0:02:17Morning, Home Secretary. They divided cabinet?A new cabinet since
0:02:17 > 0:02:24that modest reshuffle but still the same old Brexit split. Foreign
0:02:24 > 0:02:28Secretary Boris Johnson, who spent so much time on that infamous boss
0:02:28 > 0:02:34promising extra money for the NHS, went off Brive at the meeting on
0:02:34 > 0:02:39Tuesday, pushing the government to honour that much maligned pledge.Do
0:02:39 > 0:02:44you want to be the health secretary? Philip Hammond was in Brussels from
0:02:44 > 0:02:50where he sent a swift review.Mr Johnson is the foreign secretary. I
0:02:50 > 0:02:56gave the Health Secretary an extra £6 billion at the recent budget.And
0:02:56 > 0:03:01labour leader Jeremy Corbyn piled in at Prime Minister 's questions.Does
0:03:01 > 0:03:04the Prime Minister agree with the Foreign Secretary that the national
0:03:04 > 0:03:08Health Service needs an extra £5 billion?I think the right
0:03:08 > 0:03:12honourable gentleman, as I recall was here for the autumn budget which
0:03:12 > 0:03:15was given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, where he announced he
0:03:15 > 0:03:21would be putting £6 billion more into the National Health Service.
0:03:21 > 0:03:25Meanwhile, Jacob Rees-Mogg took on the Brexit Secretary David Davis
0:03:25 > 0:03:29over the transition deal.We are only actually out at the end of the
0:03:29 > 0:03:33transition. That is a big shift in government policy and a big move
0:03:33 > 0:03:44away from the vault.I do not accept your description.
0:03:44 > 0:03:46your description.Next day, Theresa May travelled to the World Economic
0:03:46 > 0:03:51Forum in Davos to heal a different divide, this time her special
0:03:51 > 0:03:57relationship with Donald Trump.
0:04:01 > 0:04:03relationship with Donald Trump. Her Chancellor described in modest
0:04:03 > 0:04:06change in Britain's relationship with the EU. Now he was being
0:04:06 > 0:04:13rebuked by furious colleagues as well as his boss. David Davies
0:04:13 > 0:04:20insists the Cabinet are united. They want a good deal.There is no
0:04:20 > 0:04:23difference between the Chancellor and myself and indeed the Prime
0:04:23 > 0:04:26Minister, in terms of the fact we both want a Brexit that serves the
0:04:26 > 0:04:31British economy and the British people.The EU will set out their
0:04:31 > 0:04:36bargaining position for a phase two of the Brexit negotiations tomorrow.
0:04:36 > 0:04:41But can we find an agreed British response.
0:04:41 > 0:04:45So to discuss the implications of all of the week's events I've got my
0:04:45 > 0:04:51expert panel. Welcome. Camilla, these are quite remarkable headlines
0:04:51 > 0:04:55this morning about the party being in turmoil over Theresa May's
0:04:55 > 0:04:59leadership and the direction of Brexit policy. Let's start with
0:04:59 > 0:05:05Brexit. How deep are the divide?I think they are very deep. The tide
0:05:05 > 0:05:10has turned a bit in the last week. Normally when you are covering these
0:05:10 > 0:05:14issues in the lobby, there is underlying hysteria. I think there
0:05:14 > 0:05:16are quite a lot of people on both sides scratching their heads,
0:05:16 > 0:05:21looking at some of the editorials we saw in the week about the Tory
0:05:21 > 0:05:25party, particularly when referring to Theresa May as a Wizard of Oz
0:05:25 > 0:05:31character. A lot in the Tory party can't disagree with that. They
0:05:31 > 0:05:34regard her as a caretaker Prime Minister. A lot of them have been
0:05:34 > 0:05:38giving her the benefit of the doubt particularly on Brexit because she
0:05:38 > 0:05:44has been consistent about what Brexit means. That did not mean
0:05:44 > 0:05:49leaving the single market and the Customs Union. -- that it must mean.
0:05:49 > 0:05:53To have Boris Johnson and Philip Hammond freelancing on the sidelines
0:05:53 > 0:05:57makes her look weak and unable to keep the Cabinet together. That
0:05:57 > 0:06:01gives the general impression to the country that they aren't quite in
0:06:01 > 0:06:05charge of things and that she particularly isn't across her brief.
0:06:05 > 0:06:09The key question at the heart of this is which of these Cabinet
0:06:09 > 0:06:15ministers are reflecting the Prime Minister pots opinion on this --'s
0:06:15 > 0:06:19opinion on this. Does she agree with Philip Hammond, or is she looking
0:06:19 > 0:06:24for a more significant divergence? This is absolutely critical. We talk
0:06:24 > 0:06:31about Brexit divisions. We are used to thinking about the division being
0:06:31 > 0:06:34about Remainers and levers. That is not the division we are talking
0:06:34 > 0:06:40about. There is a group of people in government who have now focused on
0:06:40 > 0:06:43the practical technical difficulty of what is required to get Britain
0:06:43 > 0:06:47safely out of the European Union. And they for the most part, and I
0:06:47 > 0:06:51will include the Prime Minister, have understood it is a long
0:06:51 > 0:06:55incremental process. You want an arrangement that looks pretty much
0:06:55 > 0:06:59like the status quo. If there is going to be divergence from EU
0:06:59 > 0:07:03rules, it will be incremental. We get the impression the Prime
0:07:03 > 0:07:05Minister has signed off on that approach because she is a cautious
0:07:05 > 0:07:10person. The problem is the Chancellor said it out loud. He had
0:07:10 > 0:07:16the temerity to say it. This is the plan. You have the other group of
0:07:16 > 0:07:20people, the harder, more ideological Brexiteers are not in government,
0:07:20 > 0:07:23who don't have to focus on the practical reality, look at that and
0:07:23 > 0:07:27think, that doesn't sound like emancipation and freedom, that
0:07:27 > 0:07:33sounds a bit boring. When you listen to what some of the critics of the
0:07:33 > 0:07:37Prime Minister from the hard Brexit position are saying, it is not
0:07:37 > 0:07:40obvious what they are asking her to do. What they want from her is a
0:07:40 > 0:07:48sense of clarity, a sense of whether or not she can have the confidence
0:07:48 > 0:07:51to stand up and say, the Chancellor is right. They are testing courtesy
0:07:51 > 0:07:56of she can do that and she won't do that because she doesn't want the
0:07:56 > 0:08:02huge tsunami of betrayal from the right.It is also impossible
0:08:02 > 0:08:06Bridgeford Theresa May to try and cross. How can she reconcile these
0:08:06 > 0:08:10different views of what Brexit is going to look like at the point
0:08:10 > 0:08:15where we have to start laying out what Britain's approach will be?
0:08:15 > 0:08:19That is the problem. The divisions are seemingly irreconcilable in the
0:08:19 > 0:08:23party. That is their own problem. It has become a national problem
0:08:23 > 0:08:29because they are doing it while in government. They have a over us
0:08:29 > 0:08:32while they are falling apart. That is completely irresponsible. In
0:08:32 > 0:08:39terms of where we are going to end up, we all know. We saw from phase
0:08:39 > 0:08:45one of EU that actually everything was conceded to the soft Brexit
0:08:45 > 0:08:50model was conceded two in what was agreed to during the parameters of
0:08:50 > 0:08:54phase one. It seems like, do we really have to go through this all
0:08:54 > 0:08:58again, this pretend, this bickering, this biting, when we know in the end
0:08:58 > 0:09:03we are going to end up with a situation that is a soft Brexit
0:09:03 > 0:09:07because this is where the major constituency is in Westminster and
0:09:07 > 0:09:11the country.We have a couple of guest to make disagree with that. We
0:09:11 > 0:09:13will return to you guys later.
0:09:13 > 0:09:15Well, the Cabinet Minister David Lidington was talking
0:09:15 > 0:09:17to Andrew Marr this morning, and was asked about the backlash
0:09:17 > 0:09:20on the Government's Brexit strategy from Jacob Rees-Mogg and other
0:09:20 > 0:09:22Conservative MPs.
0:09:22 > 0:09:29Jacob, like everybody else, needs to see how negotiations go. We are
0:09:29 > 0:09:32about to start negotiations. I'm not going into detail about that
0:09:32 > 0:09:37process. Secondly, the very fact that we will have left the European
0:09:37 > 0:09:43Union is a big deal indeed. The bill in front of Parliament extinguishes
0:09:43 > 0:09:47the power of the European Court and supranational EU law over the UK.
0:09:47 > 0:09:49I'm joined now by the former Cabinet Minister, Theresa Villiers.
0:09:49 > 0:09:52She has written a piece in today's Sunday Telegraph telling
0:09:52 > 0:09:56of her growing concern that Brexit is being diluted.
0:09:56 > 0:10:03Thank you for coming on. What do you mean by Brexit been diluted?I have
0:10:03 > 0:10:08consistently argued the case for compromise and I recognise it is
0:10:08 > 0:10:14necessary. What I was saying in my article this morning was that if you
0:10:14 > 0:10:17go too far with compromise, eventually you get to the point
0:10:17 > 0:10:20where we wouldn't generally be leaving the European Union, we
0:10:20 > 0:10:24wouldn't be respecting the result of the referendum.You are concerned
0:10:24 > 0:10:30that is the direction they're heading in?I am concerned. We must
0:10:30 > 0:10:34retain the right to divergence Romeu laws. One of the key points of
0:10:34 > 0:10:38leaving the European Union is to ensure that we make our own laws in
0:10:38 > 0:10:44our own parliaments and not be subject to laws made by people we
0:10:44 > 0:10:48don't elect and can't remove.What has made you concerned that is the
0:10:48 > 0:10:52direction in which we are heading? Is it Chancellor talking about
0:10:52 > 0:10:55modest changes or something happening behind the scenes?It is a
0:10:55 > 0:11:01combination of things. I think in part the government faces a
0:11:01 > 0:11:04difficult challenge convincing people on the Leave side of the
0:11:04 > 0:11:08debate. So many times in the past there have been Prime Ministers
0:11:08 > 0:11:12who've gone to Brussels and said, it will be fine, we would bring you
0:11:12 > 0:11:16back a deal, and at the last minute there has been, territory has been
0:11:16 > 0:11:20given away. We have made compromises. I accept the need for
0:11:20 > 0:11:24that. There is only so far you can go before ultimately you find
0:11:24 > 0:11:30yourself in a position where you are deleting Brexit so much that it
0:11:30 > 0:11:33isn't leaving the European Union in a real sense.When you hear Philip
0:11:33 > 0:11:38Hammond say they will only be modest changes to our relationship with the
0:11:38 > 0:11:42EU, you think he is reflecting government policy? Downing Street
0:11:42 > 0:11:49tried to refute what he was saying. Only actually said was, you can't
0:11:49 > 0:11:53call leaving the single market and Customs union a modest change. You
0:11:53 > 0:11:56are anxious, are you, that right at the top they are worried about
0:11:56 > 0:12:02keeping fairly close alignment with the EU?The Prime Minister set out a
0:12:02 > 0:12:06bold vision for Brexit in her Lancaster House speech. My article
0:12:06 > 0:12:10is about appealing to the government to stick to that vision and
0:12:10 > 0:12:13implemented so that once we leave the European Union we are back in
0:12:13 > 0:12:18control of our laws, money and borders.The Prime Minister has set
0:12:18 > 0:12:22this out in Lancaster House and in Florence. Why do you think she would
0:12:22 > 0:12:28be backsliding? Makes you think anything has changed?I don't think
0:12:28 > 0:12:33she wants to backslide. I think what is happening is that she is under
0:12:33 > 0:12:37huge sustained pressure from a range of quarters to reverse the result of
0:12:37 > 0:12:42the referendum. So in part, but I am trying to do is to re-emphasise the
0:12:42 > 0:12:46positive case for Brexit. And we emphasise that whilst there are
0:12:46 > 0:12:53those who want to soften things up and frustrate the implementation of
0:12:53 > 0:12:56the referendum, others are enthusiastic about implementing that
0:12:56 > 0:13:00vision in the Lancaster House speech.Were those people who want
0:13:00 > 0:13:04to frustrate her? You must be worried they are right inside the
0:13:04 > 0:13:09Cabinet for you to write a newspaper article about this. You must be
0:13:09 > 0:13:14worried if his right at the top of government?I don't believe that. I
0:13:14 > 0:13:21think the Cabinet is united in wanting to do this.
0:13:21 > 0:13:24wanting to do this.After the different views we had this week?
0:13:24 > 0:13:28This is an issue that has divided the country. The key battle now is
0:13:28 > 0:13:34what is going to be the end state we ask for in the negotiations? We must
0:13:34 > 0:13:38ask for an end state based on the Lancaster House speech, which means
0:13:38 > 0:13:41retaining control, making our own laws in our own Parliament. That is
0:13:41 > 0:13:45how we have -- we become genuinely an independent country again and
0:13:45 > 0:13:51respect the result of the referendum.Do you think the
0:13:51 > 0:13:54Chancellor was contravening stated policy when he talked about modest
0:13:54 > 0:13:59changes. --? Was he out of line?I wouldn't make too much of that one
0:13:59 > 0:14:03comment. That has not wanted my concerns. What I want to do is
0:14:03 > 0:14:09ensure the case for a real Brexit is made. I fully acknowledge the
0:14:09 > 0:14:13technical scale of the exercise of withdrawing from the European Union.
0:14:13 > 0:14:18It is very complicated. That is one of the reasons why I have had a --
0:14:18 > 0:14:21advocated and supported compromise. There is only so far you can go
0:14:21 > 0:14:26without -- with compromise without finding yourself selling out on the
0:14:26 > 0:14:29people who voted to leave.The next phase will be about the
0:14:29 > 0:14:34implementation period before we get to the final future relationship
0:14:34 > 0:14:39with the EU. We learned a little bit more about the government approached
0:14:39 > 0:14:42and that this week. David Davis made it sound as if there will be no
0:14:42 > 0:14:46changes to free movement of people whatsoever during the two-year
0:14:46 > 0:14:51transition phase. Does that concern you? That seems to be a change in
0:14:51 > 0:14:56policy.For me, the important issue is what happens at the end of the
0:14:56 > 0:15:02transition period.You are relaxed about two years of transition which
0:15:02 > 0:15:07looks most identical to staying in the EU?I accept that looks like
0:15:07 > 0:15:10what is current to happen. I think there is a case for a transition
0:15:10 > 0:15:16period. I think my worry now is if we go into the transition period
0:15:16 > 0:15:18without the clearest possible understanding of what the
0:15:18 > 0:15:22arrangements are when we leave, so I believe that we must have as much
0:15:22 > 0:15:27detail as possible in relation to our agreement with the European
0:15:27 > 0:15:31Union, that we reach before the transition period starts. If we go
0:15:31 > 0:15:38into it not knowing the end state, that would worry me.
0:15:39 > 0:15:43When it comes to the end state, what are the things you couldn't sign up
0:15:43 > 0:15:50to? What's being described as easy movement of people in and out of the
0:15:50 > 0:15:54UK, would that lead to a point it was a Brexit deal you couldn't agree
0:15:54 > 0:16:01to?The key issues are the end state must allow the UK to run its own
0:16:01 > 0:16:05trade policy and make its own decisions on rules and regulations.
0:16:05 > 0:16:10So no involvement from the European Court of Justice?The Government has
0:16:10 > 0:16:18agreed a time limited role for that. I don't see it as a problem but any
0:16:18 > 0:16:21enlargement of that role I would see as worrying.Do you think there's
0:16:21 > 0:16:27any possibility you could end up voting against this in Parliament?
0:16:27 > 0:16:30I'm not going to make predictions on how I will vote on a deal that
0:16:30 > 0:16:35hasn't been agreed yet. I want to make sure we work together to try to
0:16:35 > 0:16:38bridge divisions, to come up with an agreement with the European Union
0:16:38 > 0:16:43which gives us a new partnership with them, which hopefully a
0:16:43 > 0:16:46majority can be comfortable whichever way they vote in June 2000
0:16:46 > 0:16:4916.Thank you.
0:16:49 > 0:16:52Joining me now from Newcastle is the Brexit
0:16:52 > 0:16:54Minister Lord Callanan.
0:16:54 > 0:16:57Can you offer any reassurance to Theresa Villiers and any other
0:16:57 > 0:17:00members of your party who are worried about this that government
0:17:00 > 0:17:05is not going soft on Brexit?We are not going soft, there's been no
0:17:05 > 0:17:11backsliding on the Prime Minister's Lancaster house speech. We will be
0:17:11 > 0:17:16regaining control of our laws, money and borders. We will be establishing
0:17:16 > 0:17:23an independent trade policy as she set out in her speech.
0:17:23 > 0:17:26set out in her speech.Theresa Villiers is completely wrong when
0:17:26 > 0:17:31she says she's worried Brexit is being diluted, is she?Yes, she is
0:17:31 > 0:17:35wrong. It's not being diluted, the Prime Minister is in charge of the
0:17:35 > 0:17:39negotiations and we will be negotiating with our European
0:17:39 > 0:17:43partners in good faith, our friends and allies, but the objectives
0:17:43 > 0:17:47remain as she set out.So it was the Chancellor who was wrong when he
0:17:47 > 0:17:52said there would only be modest changes in our relationship?No, the
0:17:52 > 0:17:56Chancellor has said he is of the vision the Prime Minister has set
0:17:56 > 0:18:01out.
0:18:01 > 0:18:06out. We will be negotiating with our European partners to bring about
0:18:06 > 0:18:09frictionless trading arrangements but the important part of the
0:18:09 > 0:18:13negotiations is that we have to regain control of our ability to set
0:18:13 > 0:18:17our own rules and undulations. Though there may be some areas where
0:18:17 > 0:18:21if there are integrated supply lines we might want to reflect current EU
0:18:21 > 0:18:25regulations but the important thing is we decide those matters for
0:18:25 > 0:18:30ourselves.David Davis presumably speaks for government when he is
0:18:30 > 0:18:34describing the transition phase, and he says during this implementation
0:18:34 > 0:18:39period people will of course be able to travel between the UK and the EU
0:18:39 > 0:18:43to live and work. That sounds like free movement is continuing as
0:18:43 > 0:18:51before but we were told it would end as soon as we left the EU in 2019.
0:18:51 > 0:18:56We would introduce a registration scheme so we knew he was coming to
0:18:56 > 0:19:00the country.You could do that right now. This registration idea, this is
0:19:00 > 0:19:05not something that comes about because we have left the EU, we
0:19:05 > 0:19:10could have introduced that years ago if we wanted to. Several European
0:19:10 > 0:19:18countries asked the UK citizens to register.Let's see what the
0:19:18 > 0:19:21negotiations produced, but what we want to do is reflect current rules
0:19:21 > 0:19:25and regulations as closely as possible so that at the end of the
0:19:25 > 0:19:29implementation period, and it's important that is strictly
0:19:29 > 0:19:33time-limited, we agree with the EU on that, at the end of that state we
0:19:33 > 0:19:38will introduce a new immigration policy and take control of our
0:19:38 > 0:19:48rules, regulations and borders. It sounds
0:19:48 > 0:19:53sounds a lot like a red line that has gone very pale pink.
0:19:53 > 0:19:56We are about to have the negotiations. We will sit down in
0:19:56 > 0:20:00good faith with our European partners, talk about how the
0:20:00 > 0:20:04implementation period will work and what the end state will be.But we
0:20:04 > 0:20:08don't have to wait to find out what the UK Government position is
0:20:08 > 0:20:13because David Davis set it out this week and pretty much described free
0:20:13 > 0:20:17movement continuing as it is.As I said, we are having the
0:20:17 > 0:20:21negotiations, we are about to start them, let's not give away our
0:20:21 > 0:20:26positions before we do that. We want to reach an agreement as soon as
0:20:26 > 0:20:29possible so we get certainty that business knows where we are going at
0:20:29 > 0:20:34the end of the period and we move towards the new state at the end of
0:20:34 > 0:20:40a strictly time-limited implementation period.So would it
0:20:40 > 0:20:42be helpful if the Prime Minister were to make another speech, where
0:20:42 > 0:20:45she set out clearly what the Government's position is on the
0:20:45 > 0:20:48future direction of travel on the transition period and future end
0:20:48 > 0:20:52state so that instead of listening to Cabinet ministers with diverging
0:20:52 > 0:20:57views on this, we knew from the Prime Minister what the Government's
0:20:57 > 0:21:04policy was?The policy remains what she set out in detail in the
0:21:04 > 0:21:06Lancaster house speech followed up by the Florence speech where she
0:21:06 > 0:21:11outlined the new end state we want to end up with and the procedures
0:21:11 > 0:21:17for getting there. She set it out in great detail, that was very clear
0:21:17 > 0:21:25but we need to have under -- negotiation at the end of the day.
0:21:25 > 0:21:28These are difficult, complicated and tricky areas but we remain focused
0:21:28 > 0:21:33on the end state which is we will be leaving the single market and the
0:21:33 > 0:21:38customs union, having independent trade policy and deciding our own
0:21:38 > 0:21:41rules and regulations.The EU Withdrawal Bill will come to the
0:21:41 > 0:21:48Lords this week to your house, are we going to see government
0:21:48 > 0:21:54compromise?We will be listening to the debate. We showed that we were
0:21:54 > 0:21:59prepared to reflect and think about contributions made, and if people
0:21:59 > 0:22:02have suggestions that we agree with that we will improve the legislation
0:22:02 > 0:22:06and of course we will do that. The House of Lords has a very important
0:22:06 > 0:22:10role and we will carry that out effectively and we will listen to
0:22:10 > 0:22:15what the debate says.So you are open to government amendments
0:22:15 > 0:22:23changing the EU Withdrawal Bill? On issues like Henry VIII powers or
0:22:23 > 0:22:27something like that?We have already compromised on those areas in the
0:22:27 > 0:22:31House of Commons so we will listen to what the debate brings. Peers
0:22:31 > 0:22:35take their role of scrutinising EU legislation closely and we will
0:22:35 > 0:22:39reflect on that and introduce changes if we think they are
0:22:39 > 0:22:43warranted.Thanks for talking to us this morning.
0:22:43 > 0:22:46And you can find more Brexit analysis and explanation on the
0:22:46 > 0:22:47BBC website.
0:22:47 > 0:22:49This week Labour's ruling body, the National
0:22:49 > 0:22:51Executive Committee, or NEC, stepped in to a bitter row
0:22:51 > 0:22:53about a controversial housing project in the London
0:22:53 > 0:22:54borough of Haringey.
0:22:54 > 0:22:57It's led to deep divisions between the NEC and councillors
0:22:57 > 0:22:59across the country, with the Labour leader of Newcastle City Council
0:22:59 > 0:23:06calling it a "declaration of war".
0:23:06 > 0:23:07With Jeremy Corbyn supporters consolidating their grip
0:23:07 > 0:23:10on the ruling body of the party, Emma Vardy's been looking
0:23:10 > 0:23:15at the new battle lines being drawn.
0:23:15 > 0:23:20You might not think to look at it but this council estate in north
0:23:20 > 0:23:23London is being seen as a battle ground for the very soul of the
0:23:23 > 0:23:29Labour Party. Labour run Haringey plans to redevelop the estate in
0:23:29 > 0:23:34partnership with a private company but the pro-Corbyn pressure group
0:23:34 > 0:23:41momentum has led a campaign opposing it.You do not gift people's houses
0:23:41 > 0:23:46to a private developer and say you can demolish these...When Labour's
0:23:46 > 0:23:50ruling body, the NEC, intervened telling Haringey to force the
0:23:50 > 0:23:56project, some Labour supporters were outraged.We have now got the
0:23:56 > 0:23:58National executive committee effectively telling a Labour council
0:23:58 > 0:24:05what to do and I'm thinking where does this end?This, some believe,
0:24:05 > 0:24:10is what they see as the hard left of the party using the row as an excuse
0:24:10 > 0:24:14to get rid of more moderate Labour council is ahead of next year 's
0:24:14 > 0:24:19elections. Around a third of the Haringey Labour group of either been
0:24:19 > 0:24:24deselected or they have stood down. How is this being seen by other
0:24:24 > 0:24:29Labour council is looking on? There's 100 names on an open letter
0:24:29 > 0:24:33to the NEC today saying stay out of local council business, and one of
0:24:33 > 0:24:38them, the Labour leader of Corby Borough Council who can be found up
0:24:38 > 0:24:46there, called it a disgrace.I signed the letter because I wanted
0:24:46 > 0:24:50to demonstrate solidarity with a colleague, also to send a message to
0:24:50 > 0:24:53the NEC that we believe it is inappropriate to intervene in the
0:24:53 > 0:24:59way they did. Labour and local government are the people governing
0:24:59 > 0:25:03here in this country, we are not in Government nationally, we are in
0:25:03 > 0:25:08Government locally and we are doing a good job locally. We are
0:25:08 > 0:25:13protecting our people.Do you think the NEC will listen?I would hope
0:25:13 > 0:25:18so.The intervention that led to this row came for the first time
0:25:18 > 0:25:25since Momentum leader was elected as one of its members.The NEC has
0:25:25 > 0:25:30expressed a view, it has not mandated, not stormed in and taken
0:25:30 > 0:25:34over, and I think for every person you can find who is upset I can find
0:25:34 > 0:25:39tenants who are delighted.Jeremy Corbyn's support base on the NEC has
0:25:39 > 0:25:42been strengthened after recent elections so could this lead to
0:25:42 > 0:25:46sweeping changes on party policy in the future?Where you can see
0:25:46 > 0:25:52greater radicalism is on areas of economic policy, following Carillion
0:25:52 > 0:25:56Labour has been clear they want an end to outsourcing completely if
0:25:56 > 0:25:59they are elected, that they would like to take contracts back
0:25:59 > 0:26:04in-house, and at a local of all the tensions exist as well.What is the
0:26:04 > 0:26:10risk with upsetting councils?Is it causes local divisions and they want
0:26:10 > 0:26:17parties to be focused on governing. It also threatens to cause tensions
0:26:17 > 0:26:21between MPs. A lot of MPs see Labour councillors as proud bastions of the
0:26:21 > 0:26:26party and see them as a barrier to those who they think are taking too
0:26:26 > 0:26:32much of a faction or ideological approach.What would your message
0:26:32 > 0:26:36beta Jeremy Corbyn?That the Labour Party are very fortunate to have a
0:26:36 > 0:26:40large cohort of very experienced and talented councillors up and down the
0:26:40 > 0:26:46country. We know what we are doing, a us to get on with that.Local
0:26:46 > 0:26:54councils aside, in Parliament Jeremy Corbyn has won the
0:26:54 > 0:26:57Corbyn has won the support of many Labour MPs who now believe he should
0:26:57 > 0:27:00lead them into the next election, but could it be the relationship
0:27:00 > 0:27:02with the wider party in local government that becomes the one that
0:27:02 > 0:27:03is more difficult to manage?
0:27:03 > 0:27:04Emma Vardy reporting.
0:27:04 > 0:27:07Jon Trickett is a member of the Shadow Cabinet, and also sits
0:27:07 > 0:27:08on Labour's National Executive Committee.
0:27:08 > 0:27:14He joins me now from Yorkshire.
0:27:14 > 0:27:19We have got the leader of Newcastle City Council, the Labour leader,
0:27:19 > 0:27:23saying this is a declaration of war, the NEC getting involved in the
0:27:23 > 0:27:30local government decision.The first thing to say is Labour is in
0:27:30 > 0:27:33Government throughout this country in local councils, we are very proud
0:27:33 > 0:27:37of our record in local government but the NEC took a decision the
0:27:37 > 0:27:41other day, it was unanimous by the way, nobody voted against it, and
0:27:41 > 0:27:45Nick was in the room. He made a strong case for the autonomy of
0:27:45 > 0:27:49councils and in general that is what we think too. In fact we want to
0:27:49 > 0:27:55bring more powers back to local council...You cannot reconcile
0:27:55 > 0:28:00giving more power to councils with the idea there is a top-down diktats
0:28:00 > 0:28:05on what decisions councils must take.Let me just finish the point
0:28:05 > 0:28:11because what the NEC did was to ask for a pause. We did it politely but
0:28:11 > 0:28:15we said before that should happen, let's have a conversation between
0:28:15 > 0:28:19Haringey and the NEC and that conversation is now taking place or
0:28:19 > 0:28:24Wilby. I think this is an exaggerated row and when people look
0:28:24 > 0:28:29at the facts, we have asked for a pause is not necessarily a change in
0:28:29 > 0:28:36policy, though we think the policy was wrong and we want a conversation
0:28:36 > 0:28:41with Haringey.You are having a conversation between the NEC and
0:28:41 > 0:28:44Haringey. If Haringey Council refused to change their minds about
0:28:44 > 0:28:50this, they will then be subject to a diktats from the NEC, will they not?
0:28:50 > 0:28:53I'm not going to go into a speculative conversation with you
0:28:53 > 0:29:01but let's remember the background to this. This is effectively a huge
0:29:01 > 0:29:05deal outsourcing huge amounts of resources and assets in Haringey. It
0:29:05 > 0:29:11is very controversial and remember this, the NEC received a letter from
0:29:11 > 0:29:1622 Labour councillors on Haringey Council asking for a pause. We
0:29:16 > 0:29:21reacted to that request from within Haringey itself and all of this
0:29:21 > 0:29:26takes in the background of problems at Grenfell and also with the
0:29:26 > 0:29:29collapse of Carillion, both of which I think our matters we need to be
0:29:29 > 0:29:34thinking about when we are thinking in local councils about outsourcing
0:29:34 > 0:29:37additional provision. I am optimistic we will find an amicable
0:29:37 > 0:29:41way forward.It gets to a fundamental policy aspect of the
0:29:41 > 0:29:45Labour Party as to who makes decisions and surely you say some
0:29:45 > 0:29:54Labour councils were concerned about this, the majority of Labour members
0:29:54 > 0:30:01on the council were in favour of it.
0:30:01 > 0:30:04The ruling body of the Labour Party is obliged by the Constitution to
0:30:04 > 0:30:12take a view where there is clearly a dispute within one of our
0:30:12 > 0:30:15constitutional elements. And there was an absolutely clear position
0:30:15 > 0:30:20that there was a dispute. We were asked to intervene. We took a view
0:30:20 > 0:30:24and asked the council to think about it again and agreed to mediation. I
0:30:24 > 0:30:30don't think this is unreasonable. The Constitution of the party
0:30:30 > 0:30:33requires the NEC from time to time to make sure that the constitutional
0:30:33 > 0:30:36elements operate within the policies, programmes and principles
0:30:36 > 0:30:43of the Labour Party. I think it is a storm in a teacup.It is about the
0:30:43 > 0:30:47controversial issue of outsourcing. That is something you are speaking
0:30:47 > 0:30:53out about this week, saying the Labour government would reverse
0:30:53 > 0:30:56outsourcing, setting out clear rules for companies you would give
0:30:56 > 0:30:58contracts to, including the idea that the boss should not be paid
0:30:58 > 0:31:05more than 20 times more than the lowest paid worker. It would be
0:31:05 > 0:31:12quite difficult to find construction companies to build, say, HS2 if
0:31:12 > 0:31:17you're going to stick to those rules?Well, there are all kinds of
0:31:17 > 0:31:20different contracts which are outsourced. Some of them can be done
0:31:20 > 0:31:25by the public sector, others can't. We will be thinking about those
0:31:25 > 0:31:31services which are outsourced. The facts are if you work for the
0:31:31 > 0:31:34Council or the government, the top ratio to the average pay is 20 to
0:31:34 > 0:31:43one. In the private sector it is 156 to one. That means in a year's work
0:31:43 > 0:31:47by a chief executive, the average worker has to work 156 years, almost
0:31:47 > 0:31:53for working like -- lifetimes. We don't think that is how taxpayers
0:31:53 > 0:31:57want the money spent.When you say you won't give government contracts
0:31:57 > 0:32:04to companies who don't have this 20 to one pay ratio you are talking all
0:32:04 > 0:32:10government contracts?We have said we want to move towards a ratio of
0:32:10 > 0:32:1320 to one. I don't think people watching will have any compunction
0:32:13 > 0:32:21to say that is not unreasonable. If you are a boss you should definitely
0:32:21 > 0:32:25earn more than the average pay. But 156 times? I don't think that is
0:32:25 > 0:32:32reasonable.Depends how quickly you would move towards this. If you got
0:32:32 > 0:32:38into government and took over the management of say HS2, and there are
0:32:38 > 0:32:43£7 billion worth of contracts, most are companies which don't fit your
0:32:43 > 0:32:46criteria, would you be cancelling those contracts are maintaining
0:32:46 > 0:32:53contracts with companies that don't fit your pay rules?Contracts which
0:32:53 > 0:32:57are already left, you cannot easily break those contracts, nor should
0:32:57 > 0:33:01you want to. It would be illegal. If the contract was operating in a way
0:33:01 > 0:33:05which was contrary to the contract, clearly we would want to look at
0:33:05 > 0:33:14bringing that back in-house. It is horses for horses -- courses.
0:33:15 > 0:33:18horses for horses -- courses.So you would continue with the contracts
0:33:18 > 0:33:21the government signed for the construction of HS2 even though
0:33:21 > 0:33:26these companies don't meet your criteria?In the case of HS2,
0:33:26 > 0:33:30remember, it went to Carillion, and 20 Carillion after government knew
0:33:30 > 0:33:38they were in trouble.There are ten more companies involved in this.But
0:33:38 > 0:33:42Carillion are in trouble. The truth is the government gave them billions
0:33:42 > 0:33:47of pounds, I think it was £1.4 billion, to a company which was
0:33:47 > 0:33:50clearly going belly up. It is completely wrong.
0:33:50 > 0:33:57Jon Trickett, thank you. I will talk to the panel about what we have
0:33:57 > 0:34:01heard on the programme so far. In Trieste -- interesting ideas from
0:34:01 > 0:34:08Jon Trickett. It would be harder to impose their rules about outsourcing
0:34:08 > 0:34:15and private companies, wouldn't it? Not necessarily. The Carillion thing
0:34:15 > 0:34:21as come at an interesting time. It has exposed in bold the kind of
0:34:21 > 0:34:27suspicion we have had for some time, which is that these PFIs are really
0:34:27 > 0:34:33just a vehicle for private companies to take public funding and not
0:34:33 > 0:34:37deliver on the services that they were supposed to do. It ends up
0:34:37 > 0:34:44costing us more. It is in line with a shift in public mood we have seen.
0:34:44 > 0:34:47There is overwhelming support for nationalisation across sectors, from
0:34:47 > 0:34:54utilities to railways and actually across politics. Conservative voters
0:34:54 > 0:34:59favour nationalisation. It is no wonder that we have this level of
0:34:59 > 0:35:05discontent when we see something like Carillion happen. Yes, it might
0:35:05 > 0:35:09be difficult in the short term to return some of those contracts into
0:35:09 > 0:35:12public hands. But it is going to be cheaper and more efficient and
0:35:12 > 0:35:18better for everyone in the long term, that much is clear.Camilla,
0:35:18 > 0:35:23do you think it is even possible to impose these kinds of rules, the 20
0:35:23 > 0:35:29to one pay ratio, four any company with a government contract?No. And
0:35:29 > 0:35:33as Andrew Gilligan's piece in the Sunday Times showed, a lot of these
0:35:33 > 0:35:39ideological premises have no basis in law whatsoever. Momentum has
0:35:39 > 0:35:45suggested to Capp pay at £60,000. What effect would that have on head
0:35:45 > 0:35:48teachers in Haringey? The people in Haringey did not vote for a
0:35:48 > 0:35:52Momentum, they voted for Labour. Haringey is a broad church. It takes
0:35:52 > 0:35:58in top on one hand and Highgate on the other. Our Momentum's policies
0:35:58 > 0:36:02representative of the constituency as a whole? No. It is deeply
0:36:02 > 0:36:09worrying people are being deselected by people with fanatical views. John
0:36:09 > 0:36:14Landis man is hugely controversial figure. He claims to be a Bastian of
0:36:14 > 0:36:20socialism and socialist policies, yet at the same time we have
0:36:20 > 0:36:21discovered, and the Sunday Express have had a lot of in-depth analysis
0:36:21 > 0:36:26of his own finances, he recently loaned £5,000 to his son's property
0:36:26 > 0:36:34company, which in turn is charged with franchising McDonald's outlets.
0:36:34 > 0:36:42John Landsman is not here to defend himself. Move on from that point.
0:36:42 > 0:36:47Let me bring in Raphael first. Haringey is emblematic of a wider
0:36:47 > 0:36:52thing happening in the Labour Party. You have got the NEC that met this
0:36:52 > 0:36:56week, the first time since you had more Momentum members elected.
0:36:56 > 0:36:59Interesting to watch if it changes the decisions they make. How
0:36:59 > 0:37:04worrying will it be people to see them getting involved in something
0:37:04 > 0:37:09as local as the decisions in Haringey?Momentum is a complex
0:37:09 > 0:37:12institution. It is not an ideological phalanx or something
0:37:12 > 0:37:18captured by the hard left. What is very interesting about this is that
0:37:18 > 0:37:22this is a tension within the left and labour that predates Jeremy
0:37:22 > 0:37:29Corbyn and Momentum. You have a tension between people who would
0:37:29 > 0:37:32start with a fixed idea of what it means invincible to be on the left,
0:37:32 > 0:37:37and people who take a slightly more pragmatic view to get elected.
0:37:37 > 0:37:41Broadly within the Labour Party at the moment Jeremy Corbyn as won the
0:37:41 > 0:37:46ideological argument. People have been marginalised. The problem is
0:37:46 > 0:37:50when you had the election last year and labour did better than a lot of
0:37:50 > 0:37:53people thought, including a lot better than Jeremy Corbyn and John
0:37:53 > 0:37:57McDonnell thought, something switched and Labour thought, we can
0:37:57 > 0:38:01do this, we can get into government. Suddenly the pragmatic tendency
0:38:01 > 0:38:07started to appear within the Corbyn movement. The tension is not between
0:38:07 > 0:38:12anti-Corbyn and pro Corbyn. It is about how you sneak up power, not
0:38:12 > 0:38:16alienate too many people. Can you actually win, beat Theresa May and
0:38:16 > 0:38:20get into government? That tension is happening inside the head of Jeremy
0:38:20 > 0:38:24Corbyn and John McDonnell. It is happening inside the head of Jon
0:38:24 > 0:38:25Trickett. We have to leave that now.
0:38:25 > 0:38:28It's coming up to 11.40 - you're watching the Sunday Politics.
0:38:28 > 0:38:30Coming up on the programme, the Leader of the Opposition
0:38:30 > 0:38:33and the leader of the free world have been giving their advice
0:38:33 > 0:38:35to the Prime Minister on how to conduct Brexit.
0:38:35 > 0:38:38We'll be discussing all that a little later on.
0:38:38 > 0:38:41First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
0:38:45 > 0:38:50Hello and welcome to the London part of the show - I'm Jo Coburn.
0:38:50 > 0:38:54I am joined for the duration by Siobhan McDonagh,
0:38:54 > 0:38:59Labour MP for Mitcham and Morden, and Paul Scully Conservative MP
0:38:59 > 0:39:00for Sutton and Cheam.
0:39:00 > 0:39:02I want to start with gun crime in the capital.
0:39:02 > 0:39:04It's gone up significantly over the last three
0:39:04 > 0:39:08years - by 44% in fact.
0:39:08 > 0:39:11That's according to a London Assembly Police and Crime Committee
0:39:11 > 0:39:14report published this week, which also found that both offenders
0:39:14 > 0:39:20and victims of gun crime are getting younger.
0:39:20 > 0:39:26How are where were you of the fact that gun crime has gone up by quite
0:39:26 > 0:39:30a large percentage?I wasn't aware of the exact statistics and the big
0:39:30 > 0:39:34jump. One of the things that comes out of the report is we don't know
0:39:34 > 0:39:38how many guns are on the street. I was quite surprised by how many gun
0:39:38 > 0:39:42crimes weren't actually to do with gang crime. I think it is 50% of
0:39:42 > 0:39:50gang crime, which means half is not. What needs to be done?You need to
0:39:50 > 0:39:55encourage families and neighbours to say when they think there is a gun
0:39:55 > 0:39:59available. Often when people know they are too frightened to inform
0:39:59 > 0:40:03the police. We need to break that down. I think that schools need to
0:40:03 > 0:40:13be on their guard, ...You think there are guns in schools?I imagine
0:40:13 > 0:40:19that does happen.
0:40:19 > 0:40:21that does happen. Older brothers, co-proprietor using them because
0:40:21 > 0:40:25they think they are people who want to be detected.Is this a lack of
0:40:25 > 0:40:29intelligence by the Metropolitan police?A lot of it is that guns are
0:40:29 > 0:40:35coming through places like the dark web. It is tough in terms of new
0:40:35 > 0:40:40technology being able to access guns. They tend to come up with
0:40:40 > 0:40:44trophy guns rather than the stuff which is used in crime.What is
0:40:44 > 0:40:48driving this? It is in the last two years and to some extent the UK has
0:40:48 > 0:40:53been protected because it is an island, so it hasn't been easy for
0:40:53 > 0:40:56criminals to get guns onto the mainland. What has changed?I think
0:40:56 > 0:41:04it is accessibility, either by people coming or going, by cheaper,
0:41:04 > 0:41:08easier public transport access through the tunnel, by plane. It is
0:41:08 > 0:41:13there and perhaps people feel that they escalate upwards from knives
0:41:13 > 0:41:19and it is the path that he go down. Will this be similar to knife crime
0:41:19 > 0:41:23in the sense that there will be a spiral effect of people thinking
0:41:23 > 0:41:27they need to protect themselves? Is it not just gang-related, for
0:41:27 > 0:41:31example? They will be more in circulation.That is why what we
0:41:31 > 0:41:37need to do is lay out the facts for the mayor. Take a lead to get the
0:41:37 > 0:41:41intelligence so we don't get to the point where it is a choice to carry
0:41:41 > 0:41:46a gun.This is a serious issue so I don't want to make a cheap political
0:41:46 > 0:41:50point. But you do need the specialist police in order to do
0:41:50 > 0:41:53this work. And at a time when our numbers are going down, police on
0:41:53 > 0:41:59the streets, particularly the CSOs, often the people that residents are
0:41:59 > 0:42:02happy to speak to, build a relationship with, we need to build
0:42:02 > 0:42:07confidence to have those networks. It is about intelligence but police
0:42:07 > 0:42:09numbers in London have been reasonably static. It is also about
0:42:09 > 0:42:15giving extra funding to Sciver. And it is then extending that to
0:42:15 > 0:42:21analysis of the dark web. -- cyber. What if there are not enough police
0:42:21 > 0:42:25officers being the eyes and the years? Want that exacerbate the
0:42:25 > 0:42:29problem?It will certainly exacerbate intelligence gathering.
0:42:29 > 0:42:33We do need more police on the street. We want to make sure that we
0:42:33 > 0:42:35have everything in place to have those eyes and ears.
0:42:35 > 0:42:38When you think of a prefab home, the image of post-war
0:42:38 > 0:42:40homes comes to mind.
0:42:40 > 0:42:41They became synonymous with bad housing.
0:42:41 > 0:42:46But could a new generation of prefab homes - manufactured
0:42:46 > 0:42:48with precision in factories - be an answer to London's
0:42:48 > 0:42:49housing shortage?
0:42:49 > 0:42:54Bhavani Vadde reports.
0:42:54 > 0:42:58Lorraine has been waiting for a suitable housing for nearly two
0:42:58 > 0:43:03years. In the meantime, sharing his studio flat in mid-June with her
0:43:03 > 0:43:0817-year-old daughter has been difficult.Cramped. Very cramped.
0:43:08 > 0:43:14And depressing. She studies late at night. I have to get up at six
0:43:14 > 0:43:17o'clock in the morning to get to work, so it is pretty hard. There is
0:43:17 > 0:43:24no space for anything. Bags and boxes everywhere.Down the road from
0:43:24 > 0:43:26the rain, could this development provide the solution to building
0:43:26 > 0:43:36housing quickly? -- from Lorraine. The 37 flats were built in a
0:43:36 > 0:43:41factory, transported to the site by Laurie and lifted into position. The
0:43:41 > 0:43:46process took five months. About half the time of traditional methods. And
0:43:46 > 0:43:53it was 25% cheaper, costing £63,000 per flat. In a new departure for the
0:43:53 > 0:43:58YMCA, they have built these homes on land bought from Merton Council. As
0:43:58 > 0:44:01part of that transaction, half of the residents come from the waiting
0:44:01 > 0:44:06list of the Council and the other half from hostels.In terms of
0:44:06 > 0:44:10quality of build, the living experiences better than most things
0:44:10 > 0:44:16out there. For just over £2 million you can deliver just over 36 homes
0:44:16 > 0:44:20very quickly for people. It is a fantastic affordable solution. We
0:44:20 > 0:44:24would love to roll out more of these. We would love more London
0:44:24 > 0:44:31boroughs to do this.But Lorraine lives in the borough of Merton.
0:44:31 > 0:44:37There are 9000 families currently on housing register. You need to show
0:44:37 > 0:44:41some leadership in your borough to get those homes built, don't you?We
0:44:41 > 0:44:44are showing leadership to build properties to make sure people are
0:44:44 > 0:44:48not in cramped conditions. We are the first borough to have prefab
0:44:48 > 0:44:55housing. We do need government to help. The best way they can help is
0:44:55 > 0:45:02to allow us to borrow to build.Some housing analysts predict that 2018
0:45:02 > 0:45:05could be the year that the modern version of the prefab home really
0:45:05 > 0:45:10takes off. And not just affordable housing development is like this one
0:45:10 > 0:45:14in Mitcham. Factory built flats are already
0:45:14 > 0:45:20available to buy across London. The developers of these ones, pocket
0:45:20 > 0:45:24homes, have received £25 million investment by the mayor to deliver
0:45:24 > 0:45:321000 affordable homes. A third of them will be factory built.
0:45:32 > 0:45:36The report concluded this kind of technology could be the answer to
0:45:36 > 0:45:39London's housing crisis.We need them now to start working the
0:45:39 > 0:45:45market, make sure it develops. There is certainly a demand, all we need
0:45:45 > 0:45:49now is for the mayor to pull his finger out and start taking action.
0:45:49 > 0:45:53We need the main programmes of housing in London to incorporate
0:45:53 > 0:45:58modular housing, otherwise we will be waiting too long for those homes
0:45:58 > 0:46:03to come online. He has not produced any targets for the number of
0:46:03 > 0:46:07modular homes being built.The mayor says he is promoting factory built
0:46:07 > 0:46:11homes by investing some of the £3 billion he has secured from
0:46:11 > 0:46:17government to build affordable housing.The mayor has targets and
0:46:17 > 0:46:22that is a crucial target for us, we want to see the affordable homes
0:46:22 > 0:46:26built. Modular construction is a key role to play in supporting those
0:46:26 > 0:46:32targets.There are concerns that savings developers may make won't be
0:46:32 > 0:46:37passed on to home-buyers, but they can be built on awkward brown field
0:46:37 > 0:46:43sites, they are faster to manufacture, and could be cheaper.
0:46:43 > 0:46:45So, what's the delay?
0:46:45 > 0:46:47I'm joined by Sir Steve Bullock, Mayor for Lewisham,
0:46:47 > 0:46:50and the executive member for Housing for London Councils,
0:46:50 > 0:46:56the cross party body that represents all of London's local authorities.
0:46:56 > 0:47:01Welcome to the programme, I will come to you in a moment. Siobhan, do
0:47:01 > 0:47:11you think the mayor is doing enough? I am sure. What we know is that many
0:47:11 > 0:47:14properties, we need them quickly and we need them to be cheap and able
0:47:14 > 0:47:20for people to live in them. It is up to councils, up to the mayor, up to
0:47:20 > 0:47:24the health service to say could we use that piece of land for housing
0:47:24 > 0:47:31and if the answer is yes, get those in.But we have heard criticism in
0:47:31 > 0:47:38the film saying Sadiq Khan hasn't set targets for the number, to
0:47:38 > 0:47:43stimulate the market, why not?There is nothing stopping local
0:47:43 > 0:47:46authorities from doing it and we need direction from government as
0:47:46 > 0:47:49well, and I believe you're right on this programme is absolutely timely
0:47:49 > 0:47:54because I think we are going to see all sorts of interest, not just for
0:47:54 > 0:47:59rent but to buy.But Steve, words are not enough and rhetoric will not
0:47:59 > 0:48:04build these houses for
0:48:08 > 0:48:14build these houses for -- rhetoric will not build these houses.
0:48:14 > 0:48:16will not build these houses.It is increasing the amount of
0:48:16 > 0:48:19pre-manufactured that is in other forms of construction because one of
0:48:19 > 0:48:23the problems we have is we don't have the people to build using
0:48:23 > 0:48:28traditional methods.That's because you haven't put in the demand. If
0:48:28 > 0:48:32the demand was there, surely the production would follow.What needs
0:48:32 > 0:48:36to happen is across the country developers need to make it clear
0:48:36 > 0:48:43that we are going to do this so that factories can be built, can get the
0:48:43 > 0:48:48order books built up.Right, why aren't they? Everyone is sitting
0:48:48 > 0:48:52here, I haven't asked Paul yet, saying it should be done, yet no one
0:48:52 > 0:48:57is signalling that they would put either money or resources behind
0:48:57 > 0:49:03production.Hopefully after this piece they will do. I would say to
0:49:03 > 0:49:07my own counsel, let us get started, let commercial developers get
0:49:07 > 0:49:15started. We want those properties quickly. In my borough we have 189
0:49:15 > 0:49:22families in homeless accommodation, Paul insults and has got about 350.
0:49:22 > 0:49:31-- Paul in Sutton.Paul, do you think this is the solution?Yes,
0:49:31 > 0:49:35it's an important part of the solution and commercial
0:49:35 > 0:49:39organisations are already getting involved. A school in my area was
0:49:39 > 0:49:44expanded using modular build. It can help in terms of extensions in
0:49:44 > 0:49:47central London because you are not disrupting traffic, but in
0:49:47 > 0:49:53affordability what we need is at the heart of the mayor's Housing
0:49:53 > 0:49:58strategy so we need a closer lead from the Mayor to drive modular
0:49:58 > 0:50:04homes as an option.Do you agree there needs to be more of a lead
0:50:04 > 0:50:10from the Mayor?I think there is. He's trying to promote local
0:50:10 > 0:50:14authorities to do it, he's making money available. We have got to say
0:50:14 > 0:50:18to local authorities make it your top issue because there are so many
0:50:18 > 0:50:23other things going on.You've also got Transport for London which owns
0:50:23 > 0:50:27a lot of land in London, something like the size of Camden, so he
0:50:27 > 0:50:31should be taking more of a lead and showing it.So you are not doing
0:50:31 > 0:50:39enough and putting your money where your mouth is?Far from it. We have
0:50:39 > 0:50:43done one, we will do two more, also the London boroughs are working
0:50:43 > 0:50:47together because doing this at scale will be important so we can place
0:50:47 > 0:50:53orders for London as a whole but let's us get the manufacture of it.
0:50:53 > 0:51:01Why not commit to a certain number, why not say we will be bold and
0:51:01 > 0:51:06build hundreds of thousands of these homes?I think we will, but saying
0:51:06 > 0:51:16it doesn't...Is that why we haven't built enough houses of any
0:51:16 > 0:51:20description?We will say to the factories, build them and we will
0:51:20 > 0:51:24allocate them.We know the Government target is 300,000 new
0:51:24 > 0:51:30houses a year, the last time we provided that number was 1969. It
0:51:30 > 0:51:35meant councils were building, housing association is building and
0:51:35 > 0:51:38the private sector was building so unless we get an opportunity for
0:51:38 > 0:51:43councils to be able to lift the cap off their borrowing abilities, we
0:51:43 > 0:51:47won't see those sort of numbers. This is not the case that if
0:51:47 > 0:51:54councils were insane -- if councils were able to borrow that money they
0:51:54 > 0:51:59could take the lead?If they are going to be borrowing money, they
0:51:59 > 0:52:05should be borrowing it responsibly for infrastructure locally, instead
0:52:05 > 0:52:10of building a handful of council houses.Did you know councils can go
0:52:10 > 0:52:18out and buy a shopping centre but they can't go out and build houses.
0:52:18 > 0:52:21It is absolutely right, there are plenty of options for councils to
0:52:21 > 0:52:26borrow money for local infrastructure.Absolutely not. The
0:52:26 > 0:52:30Council like mine which has transferred its stock to a housing
0:52:30 > 0:52:35association has no ability to and buy to build.What is your view on
0:52:35 > 0:52:39this? Haven't councils got other options, rather than borrowing vast
0:52:39 > 0:52:45amounts of money on taxpayer perhaps in some cases for responsible
0:52:45 > 0:52:51schemes?I don't know about responsible schemes but there are of
0:52:51 > 0:52:58things councils can do. You can borrow to some extent but there is a
0:52:58 > 0:53:03cap on it. You can come up with arrangements with companies. The key
0:53:03 > 0:53:06to this, particularly with modular building, is getting people to
0:53:06 > 0:53:11accept this is a change which is happening. There's a perception
0:53:11 > 0:53:15problem here. Our friends from the Institute of Housing Finance were in
0:53:15 > 0:53:19the Lords last week trying to get this across. We all have to say this
0:53:19 > 0:53:28is the way we are going to do it in the future.But somebody has got to
0:53:28 > 0:53:31it first.You are talking about large amounts of money but we are
0:53:31 > 0:53:33saying this is not large amounts of money, but councils are spending a
0:53:33 > 0:53:39huge amount of money leaving people in temporary accommodation for years
0:53:39 > 0:53:44on end. We want an opportunity for the money to be spent while in
0:53:44 > 0:53:47decent homes.That's about priorities, making sure our
0:53:47 > 0:53:52residents are calling out the councils to say look, invest in our
0:53:52 > 0:53:58own areas, not Oxford, not shopping centres.Is prefab housing a
0:53:58 > 0:54:02long-term solution? Isn't this another short-term solution for the
0:54:02 > 0:54:06housing that needed?Clearly you need to make sure they are of
0:54:06 > 0:54:11quality but the pre-fabs now are in many ways better because of the
0:54:11 > 0:54:16precision you can make them in a factory.They are fantastic, I have
0:54:16 > 0:54:22been inside them.How long do you think they would last?Minimum 60
0:54:22 > 0:54:29years, I would say longer.I have heard people who believe they have
0:54:29 > 0:54:35120 years. After the foundations are built, they can construct ten houses
0:54:35 > 0:54:40per day.What would you like to see Sadiq Khan do?Set a target that 50%
0:54:40 > 0:54:46of new housing in London is either modular or pre-manufactured.And if
0:54:46 > 0:54:52he did that, what would the response be from London councils?London
0:54:52 > 0:54:55councils where they are in control would step up the amount they are
0:54:55 > 0:55:02doing but we need developers to do it too.Would you like to see
0:55:02 > 0:55:06councils have more freedom to spend money on the provisions you have
0:55:06 > 0:55:10talked about?If they are spending money and investing in their local
0:55:10 > 0:55:16area, it is far better...Shouldn't you allow councils to make decisions
0:55:16 > 0:55:19themselves?There is scope for borrowing money but it doesn't need
0:55:19 > 0:55:23to be the council themselves borrowing money and building
0:55:23 > 0:55:26everything, they need to be unlocking developers and other
0:55:26 > 0:55:31options.I'd like the Government to require that any public body is
0:55:31 > 0:55:36required to say the first use of the sites they have is for housing.All
0:55:36 > 0:55:41right, we will have to leave it there, thank you very much.
0:55:41 > 0:55:43Now, London has its own Mayor, its own budget
0:55:43 > 0:55:44and a Minister for London too.
0:55:44 > 0:55:47But is that enough to deal with the problems and policy
0:55:47 > 0:55:49questions facing the capital when so many of these affect people
0:55:49 > 0:55:52beyond London's official boundaries.
0:55:52 > 0:55:54The Mayor hosted his "Wider South East Summit" this week,
0:55:54 > 0:55:56meeting council leaders from outside London to see how they
0:55:56 > 0:56:01could work together.
0:56:01 > 0:56:04Separately, a new report by the Centre for London called
0:56:04 > 0:56:06on politicians to rethink the capital's borders and how
0:56:06 > 0:56:08policy is made throughout London and the Southeast.
0:56:08 > 0:56:11They say the housing shortage needs to be dealt with by building
0:56:11 > 0:56:13housing outside London, supported by greater integration
0:56:13 > 0:56:19of rail across the southeast.
0:56:19 > 0:56:21They're calling it the "Southern Superhub".
0:56:21 > 0:56:23Joining me Richard Brown from the think tank behind
0:56:23 > 0:56:27the report, Centre for London.
0:56:27 > 0:56:31Who actually benefits from some of the things you are recommending
0:56:31 > 0:56:36here?I think everyone across London, the Southeast should
0:56:36 > 0:56:41benefit. London no longer operates as a single city, about 16% of its
0:56:41 > 0:56:45workers come in every day, it is connected to towns and cities across
0:56:45 > 0:56:48the south-east of England but the planning for where the houses go
0:56:48 > 0:56:54isn't really joined up. These places are still operating like three
0:56:54 > 0:56:57completely different regions.So what are you suggesting should
0:56:57 > 0:57:07happen?There has been progress in recent years. For
0:57:07 > 0:57:09recent years. For around the first 15 years of the mayoralty there was
0:57:09 > 0:57:11this idea London would consume its own smoke and accommodate the growth
0:57:11 > 0:57:13within the city boundaries. The cracks have been showing in that
0:57:13 > 0:57:16because we have seen more and more people moving outside and it is
0:57:16 > 0:57:20causing problems in towns and cities outside of London soaks the new
0:57:20 > 0:57:25mayor has set out a plan that says a lot more about collaboration across
0:57:25 > 0:57:29the south-east. He's holding a Wider South East Summit but we think it
0:57:29 > 0:57:34needs to go further. Rather than occasional pieces of ad hoc
0:57:34 > 0:57:37regulation, there needs to be an understanding of how this part of
0:57:37 > 0:57:41the country, which creates about half of the UK's well, how is this
0:57:41 > 0:57:50part of the country going to grow? It makes sense, quite often we are
0:57:50 > 0:57:53talking about Labour-controlled councils in the centre of London and
0:57:53 > 0:57:57Tory councils on the outside and they don't always work together
0:57:57 > 0:58:03within London soaks why would they on the outer London and beyond?
0:58:03 > 0:58:07There are political difficulties and they have been exacerbated in recent
0:58:07 > 0:58:11years would sometimes accusations London is dumping growth, dumping
0:58:11 > 0:58:16people on those councils outside, but on the infrastructure and
0:58:16 > 0:58:21housing issues, there may not be as much between them as party politics
0:58:21 > 0:58:26would suggest.Are there examples of where it could work?There has been
0:58:26 > 0:58:30conversations about Crossrail 2, that has been much more of a joined
0:58:30 > 0:58:34up process than the first Crossrail was.Another layer of government
0:58:34 > 0:58:38bureaucracy could come knocking if you are going to start to put the
0:58:38 > 0:58:45GLA and councils outside of London together.I think it needs to be a
0:58:45 > 0:58:49reasonably light of Fort partnership rather than a big bureaucratic
0:58:49 > 0:58:53blunderbuss. The first thing to think about is getting a shared
0:58:53 > 0:58:57understanding of the challenges, then if you need to think about
0:58:57 > 0:59:03institutions you can do that afterwards.Should London's official
0:59:03 > 0:59:07borders be expanded?I don't think so at this stage but I would agree
0:59:07 > 0:59:11we need to have closer collaboration. I have got a bit of a
0:59:11 > 0:59:17green belt in our borough so you are suddenly out into fields and a
0:59:17 > 0:59:20different character in the Surrey countryside, but that is the same as
0:59:20 > 0:59:25you said about inner and outer London so you have got to make sure
0:59:25 > 0:59:27those relationships work and then you have got to bring different
0:59:27 > 0:59:33groups of people with you.But housing and transport, are you
0:59:33 > 0:59:37saying -- you are saying there should be collaboration so why did
0:59:37 > 0:59:41the Government put paid to the sort of collaboration Richard is calling
0:59:41 > 0:59:46for?When we are looking at the southern franchise being renewed,
0:59:46 > 0:59:53for example, definitely not with Southern! We need to make sure the
0:59:53 > 0:59:58mayor has more of a say in that but that's not to dictate terms or be
0:59:58 > 1:00:02seen to dictate terms in Surrey, Suffolk, Sussex and Kent.Isn't that
1:00:02 > 1:00:07the worry, that in the end London will consume those outer boroughs
1:00:07 > 1:00:12for their own ends?There is constantly this row but London is
1:00:12 > 1:00:16too big for its boots but London is a great driver of our economic
1:00:16 > 1:00:20success as a country and we desperately need better housing and
1:00:20 > 1:00:26transport. Actually I think local councils work across boundary quite
1:00:26 > 1:00:30well. In terms of the tram we have in Mitch, we worked with Croydon
1:00:30 > 1:00:35when it was Conservative, and Liberal Democrats. People want
1:00:35 > 1:00:39better for their city and region and that will be the driver of them
1:00:39 > 1:00:43working together.But politics gets in the way. That was clearly
1:00:43 > 1:00:47demonstrated in a letter leaked by Chris Grayling, who said he didn't
1:00:47 > 1:00:53want to see more power, certainly for the railways, being handed to a
1:00:53 > 1:00:58Labour mayor.
1:00:58 > 1:01:03That is really sad. I think the mayor would do an excellent job. I
1:01:03 > 1:01:12am doing a backbench debate on poverty per children in London.What
1:01:12 > 1:01:20he was saying, the problem with the Maher is the problem is he is
1:01:20 > 1:01:26speaking to his target audience. -- mayor. That is a problem for outer
1:01:26 > 1:01:29London. Sutton, in terms of transport into London, we do not get
1:01:29 > 1:01:34the attention we need from the mayor. That will be problematic for
1:01:34 > 1:01:34Kent, and Sussex.
1:01:34 > 1:01:36That's all we have time for.
1:01:36 > 1:01:38My thanks to Richard Brown and of course to Siobhain
1:01:38 > 1:01:39McDonagh and Paul Scully.
1:01:39 > 1:01:41And with that it's back to Sarah.
1:01:48 > 1:01:53Welcome back. There have been plenty of stories this week about Tory
1:01:53 > 1:01:57Brexit angst. What about the Labour Party? Reports suggest Jeremy Corbyn
1:01:57 > 1:02:02is planning a big awayday to thrash out Brexit policy.
1:02:02 > 1:02:10Healy was on Andrew Marr this morning.The problem with the
1:02:10 > 1:02:13undermining of workers' rights and conditions has been a serious one.
1:02:13 > 1:02:19What we are saying is there would be enforcement of the agency agenda
1:02:19 > 1:02:23that the EU has put forward, preventing wholescale groups of
1:02:23 > 1:02:26workers brought in to undercut and undermined. There has to be a
1:02:26 > 1:02:31regulated environment.If you get that, then you could have easy
1:02:31 > 1:02:38movement?We did. We have a recruitment crisis in the NHS now,
1:02:38 > 1:02:40particularly many nurses from Poland and other countries who have
1:02:40 > 1:02:46traditionally gone to work in this country.We are making progress. You
1:02:46 > 1:02:52have agreed to ease of movement... Our expert panel are still here to
1:02:52 > 1:02:56talk about the Labour approach to Brexit and some of the other issues.
1:02:56 > 1:03:00That was Jeremy Corbyn being questioned on the Labour approach to
1:03:00 > 1:03:05free movement of people. When they go on their big awayday this week,
1:03:05 > 1:03:09will we get clarity on the fundamental issues? Do Labour want
1:03:09 > 1:03:14us to stay in the single market and the Customs Union?The key thing to
1:03:14 > 1:03:18understand about the Labour position on Brexit is there a competing
1:03:18 > 1:03:22constituencies the Labour membership as to pay attention to. You have a
1:03:22 > 1:03:28liberal, younger, pro-remain people, ardent supporters of Jeremy Corbyn
1:03:28 > 1:03:32but also passionate against Brexit. They see it as a Ukip culture war
1:03:32 > 1:03:36thing they hate. You have a lot of people living in constituencies who
1:03:36 > 1:03:41have voted Labour who are a little bit Ukip in some of their cultured
1:03:41 > 1:03:47views of the project. They are ardently pro-Brexit. You have an
1:03:47 > 1:03:50ideological left faction, represented in the Labour leader's
1:03:50 > 1:03:55who think the EU is a capitalist thing and we would be better off out
1:03:55 > 1:03:59of it. It is technically hard for the Labour leader to reconcile those
1:03:59 > 1:04:03views. On the Customs Union and the single market, the Labour problem is
1:04:03 > 1:04:11the same as the government problem. Anybody understands that the UK's
1:04:11 > 1:04:14interests are served by being in essentially the single market and
1:04:14 > 1:04:19the Customs Union, but also it happens to be a fact that the UK has
1:04:19 > 1:04:22voted to leave the European Union. If you stay on the Customs Union and
1:04:22 > 1:04:26the single market, the Norwegian model, a lot of people will feel
1:04:26 > 1:04:32that is not enough Brexit. They simply don't have answers to these
1:04:32 > 1:04:36questions. They recognise what economic reality is telling them to
1:04:36 > 1:04:39do and they haven't found a way of expressing that economic reality to
1:04:39 > 1:04:45the 52% of people devoted to leave. Then you enter up with the kind of
1:04:45 > 1:04:49conversation Jeremy Corbyn was having with Andrew Marr. The policy
1:04:49 > 1:04:52becomes a little bit confused as to whether they are in favour of free
1:04:52 > 1:04:57movement, easy movement. Free movement is not a phrase he wants to
1:04:57 > 1:05:00use. He doesn't want to close the barriers. It all looks a bit
1:05:00 > 1:05:05confused?Nobody has ever suggested ending free movement means ending
1:05:05 > 1:05:10immigration completely. One of the main tranches of the Brexit argument
1:05:10 > 1:05:16was to make it fairer for non-EU immigrants to come to the country.
1:05:16 > 1:05:20Currently working occupational shortage lists are used to get
1:05:20 > 1:05:24people to come in. If we need more doctors, choreographers, dancers,
1:05:24 > 1:05:28then we should put them at the top of the tree and say, these are the
1:05:28 > 1:05:33people who want to come in. Equally, we need seasonal workers. There is
1:05:33 > 1:05:36an itinerant against uncontrolled immigration. That is what the EU
1:05:36 > 1:05:40immigration system is perceived to be. And controlled immigration. It
1:05:40 > 1:05:44has inevitably led to complaints on the Remain side of things that we
1:05:44 > 1:05:49will suddenly have no doctors and nurses. There was a row about that
1:05:49 > 1:05:54recently. The latest ONS figures suggest there has been a 5.4% rise
1:05:54 > 1:05:59in EU doctors and nurses coming into Britain. We will see. To be fair to
1:05:59 > 1:06:01Jeremy Corbyn Knipe body gave a pretty good account of himself today
1:06:01 > 1:06:08and answered questions in a fairly straight way. He did a better job of
1:06:08 > 1:06:11explaining Labour's Brexit position than Kier Starmer has been doing for
1:06:11 > 1:06:18weeks.It has been difficult for a Labour spokespeople to outline the
1:06:18 > 1:06:23policy on Brexit. There doesn't appear to be a clear policy. Do you
1:06:23 > 1:06:27think they are moving to a position where they will have a much more
1:06:27 > 1:06:35defined approach to what they want? First of all, I think Rafael's
1:06:35 > 1:06:38description was a bit of a mischaracterisation. The Labour
1:06:38 > 1:06:45position now is we're Remainers that accept a democratic vote has taken
1:06:45 > 1:06:49place and we need to exit the EU because that was the result. We need
1:06:49 > 1:06:53to do that in a way that keeps business and jobs and the economy
1:06:53 > 1:06:57vibrant. In a way that the Conservatives showed no particular
1:06:57 > 1:07:02sign of caring about. It is not that they think the EU is a dastardly
1:07:02 > 1:07:06project, it is more like, this is what people voted for, how do we do
1:07:06 > 1:07:14it? There is no point in the Labour Party at running the government on
1:07:14 > 1:07:19Brexit. There is no point in the Labour Party saying, this is exactly
1:07:19 > 1:07:22what we would do, when the government is the one in the driving
1:07:22 > 1:07:26seat. They are controlling the negotiations, they get to decide
1:07:26 > 1:07:31what is going on. What Labour can do in this reality is challenge the
1:07:31 > 1:07:34government when they think they are wrong, as they have done in fact
1:07:34 > 1:07:39since the negotiations began. We have got a transition period. We
1:07:39 > 1:07:43have got various things. We have got a parliamentary vote at the end of
1:07:43 > 1:07:51Brexit. That is because of Labour putting pressure on government. You
1:07:51 > 1:07:59can take credit. You can put it where you want to. We're having a
1:07:59 > 1:08:02discussion about what the Labour Party position on Brexit is. I am
1:08:02 > 1:08:06saying, where is the wisdom of Labour overrunning the government,
1:08:06 > 1:08:10which is controlling negotiations? The other thing that is important to
1:08:10 > 1:08:17says the party position is very responsive and it is changing. As I
1:08:17 > 1:08:20understand that they are very responsive to all the polling on
1:08:20 > 1:08:27positions around a referendum.How unusual for the Labour Party to
1:08:27 > 1:08:32respond to public opinion.But that's just democratic, isn't it,
1:08:32 > 1:08:38Rafael? They are responsive to the conversations they are having with
1:08:38 > 1:08:43their EU sister parties in Europe. They are listening to all these
1:08:43 > 1:08:49things. And calibrating as things go on.Donald Trump had some advice as
1:08:49 > 1:08:54to how we should approach the EU negotiations. Aimed at the Prime
1:08:54 > 1:08:57Minister not Jeremy Corbyn. This is how he said he would approach
1:08:57 > 1:09:00negotiations. Would it be the way I would
1:09:00 > 1:09:07negotiate? No. I have a lot of respect for your Prime Minister. I
1:09:07 > 1:09:11think they are doing a job. I think I would've negotiated it
1:09:11 > 1:09:15differently. I would have had a different attitude.What would you
1:09:15 > 1:09:20have done?I would have said the European Union is not cracked up to
1:09:20 > 1:09:23what it is supposed to be and I would have taken a tougher stand in
1:09:23 > 1:09:27getting out.A few in the Conservative Party would probably
1:09:27 > 1:09:32agree with Donald Trump. Is that helpful to the Prime Minister?
1:09:32 > 1:09:36Coming after what was a helpful week from Donald Trump in terms of
1:09:36 > 1:09:38relations with the Prime Minister, his love of Britain and his promise
1:09:38 > 1:09:44of tremendous trade in Davos, perhaps it is a bit of a slide.
1:09:44 > 1:09:47Actually this morning we heard Piers Morgan described Donald Trump, his
1:09:47 > 1:09:52close friend, as a ball china shop. That would be his approach to
1:09:52 > 1:09:56negotiations. Perhaps David Cameron should have taken more a bit Donald
1:09:56 > 1:10:00Trump approach when he tried to reform the EU from the inside, which
1:10:00 > 1:10:04in the end his failure to do so led to the referendum we are now
1:10:04 > 1:10:08debating.There are lots in the Conservative Party, lots of
1:10:08 > 1:10:12backbench Brexiteers, who think that is what has gone wrong, that the
1:10:12 > 1:10:15government has made too many concessions to the EU, hasn't been
1:10:15 > 1:10:23hard enough in the divorce period. Yes, a lot of those people are not
1:10:23 > 1:10:27in government and have not got a practical -- practical reality of
1:10:27 > 1:10:30what is required to take the UK out of European Union. Everything Donald
1:10:30 > 1:10:34Trump is said about international policy, particularly with regard to
1:10:34 > 1:10:37Europe and the European Union, demonstrated as not have a great
1:10:37 > 1:10:41understanding of what the EU is as a project or an institution. If I was
1:10:41 > 1:10:44a Tory Brexiteer I would be a bit concerned about Donald Trump been
1:10:44 > 1:10:49very enthusiastic about the project, because for a lot of liberal minded,
1:10:49 > 1:10:52moderate people in the broad mainstream of public life and
1:10:52 > 1:10:57politics, Donald Trump is absolutely toxic. The idea that Brexit is a
1:10:57 > 1:11:03sibling project -- project is damaging. Theresa May will want to
1:11:03 > 1:11:08make it distinct from what Donald Trump is doing.One other
1:11:08 > 1:11:11intervention today is Grant Schapps has been out in the papers. He has
1:11:11 > 1:11:15said it is becoming increasingly clear we cannot continue to muddle
1:11:15 > 1:11:21along like this. Mrs May should name a date. By that he means a date by
1:11:21 > 1:11:24which she will exit Number 10 and stopping Prime Minister. He wants a
1:11:24 > 1:11:28timetable. He says if that doesn't happen there may be a revolt.
1:11:28 > 1:11:34Rachel, it is not what she needs, is it?Is not what she needs. It is
1:11:34 > 1:11:37maybe what the country needs. She has been put on notice. She has been
1:11:37 > 1:11:42told of things don't improve by May, which is when there are local
1:11:42 > 1:11:45elections, including in major cities, if the Conservative Party do
1:11:45 > 1:11:50as badly in those as they are expected to, and predicted two, then
1:11:50 > 1:11:58there may be more moves to get rid of her. It is not surprising, is it?
1:11:58 > 1:12:02The situation is completely untenable. We can't model along like
1:12:02 > 1:12:08this, having a Prime Minister or can't lead.Graham Bailey, the chair
1:12:08 > 1:12:15of the 19 -- 1922 committee, said he keeps getting letters from backbench
1:12:15 > 1:12:21MPs who want to trigger a leadership contest -- contest. They say it is
1:12:21 > 1:12:25getting nearly 40 mark. That sounds like they are warning MPs, please
1:12:25 > 1:12:28don't send in any more letters because you may trigger a leadership
1:12:28 > 1:12:33contest. Is that a real threat?I think the notion of Graham Brady
1:12:33 > 1:12:38being ashen faced is probably quite true. There are a lot of stories
1:12:38 > 1:12:42today saying that eight of the new intake are prepared to give letters
1:12:42 > 1:12:47in. Some of the old schools. Problems among Remainers and
1:12:47 > 1:12:53Brexiteers. After recent may need to do is take hold of the situation. --
1:12:53 > 1:13:00what to May needs to do is take hold of the situation. She needs a third
1:13:00 > 1:13:03keynote speech on Brexit to take control, to silence the critics.
1:13:03 > 1:13:08Boris Johnson is due to give his own landmark speech on a so-called
1:13:08 > 1:13:12liberal Brexit, which I'm sure Rachel will be looking forward to
1:13:12 > 1:13:15hearing. Perhaps Theresa May should seize the moment, take control and
1:13:15 > 1:13:21put her own new stamp, so people are not just mentioning Lancaster House
1:13:21 > 1:13:26and Florence but a Newsbeat.A big danger for Theresa May is not
1:13:26 > 1:13:30Brexit. There are a lot of Tory MPs who think Brexit is taking care of
1:13:30 > 1:13:32itself. They are worried about the NHS. We
1:13:32 > 1:13:33have to leave it there.
1:13:33 > 1:13:34That's all for today.
1:13:34 > 1:13:37Join me again next Sunday at 11am here on BBC One.
1:13:37 > 1:13:43Until then, bye bye.