0:00:39 > 0:00:41Morning, everyone, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
0:00:41 > 0:00:43I'm Sarah Smith.
0:00:43 > 0:00:45And this is the programme that will provide your essential briefing
0:00:45 > 0:00:47on everything that's moving and shaking in the
0:00:47 > 0:00:49world of politics.
0:00:49 > 0:00:51Theresa May is back after her trip to China.
0:00:51 > 0:00:54But there's plenty of fire and fury from within her own party over
0:00:54 > 0:00:56Brexit and her ability to lead.
0:00:56 > 0:01:00The Conservative chairman joins me live.
0:01:00 > 0:01:03Labour tells demonstrators only it can save the NHS.
0:01:03 > 0:01:05So, do the party's health spending plans add up?
0:01:05 > 0:01:09We'll talk to the Shadow Health Secretary.
0:01:09 > 0:01:12Months on from the sexual harassment and bullying scandal that
0:01:12 > 0:01:13engulfed Westminster, we'll be asking what's happened
0:01:13 > 0:01:21to plans for Parliament to clean up its act.
0:01:21 > 0:01:25And a violent scuffle at a speech by one Tory MP has been widely
0:01:25 > 0:01:26condemned.
0:01:26 > 0:01:31But is it symptomatic of a wider problem in politics?
0:01:31 > 0:01:34In London, a Labour council leader bullied out of power by the left.
0:01:34 > 0:01:37That's the allegation that sparked a civil war in the party.
0:01:37 > 0:01:40All that coming up in the programme.
0:01:52 > 0:01:54All that coming up in the programme.
0:01:54 > 0:01:57And, as one newspaper speculates about a 'dream team' being urged
0:01:57 > 0:02:00to take over at Number 10, we've got our own dream team
0:02:00 > 0:02:02of journalists - Tom Newton Dunn, Julia Hartley-Brewer,
0:02:02 > 0:02:03and Steve Richards.
0:02:03 > 0:02:05And they've promised not to plot against me...
0:02:05 > 0:02:07At least until the end of the show.
0:02:07 > 0:02:09So, the Prime Minister may have been out
0:02:09 > 0:02:12of the country to drum up trade but, even from 5,000 miles away, it
0:02:12 > 0:02:14must have been hard to ignore the continuing unrest
0:02:14 > 0:02:15from some in her party,
0:02:15 > 0:02:19and repeated calls to be clearer about Brexit.
0:02:19 > 0:02:23Theresa May was in China this week, where she gave President Xi Jinping
0:02:23 > 0:02:27DVDs of Blue Planet as a reminder of the dangers of plastic pollution.
0:02:27 > 0:02:30Back home, Conservative MPs gave her some advice on how to lead
0:02:30 > 0:02:33the party and the Government.
0:02:33 > 0:02:35Some advice was offered to Cabinet ministers
0:02:35 > 0:02:37getting restless on Brexit.
0:02:37 > 0:02:40The best way they can support her is to take a vow
0:02:40 > 0:02:42of silence on the subject.
0:02:42 > 0:02:44But most was for the Prime Minister herself.
0:02:44 > 0:02:46Some even aired their thoughts in public.
0:02:46 > 0:02:49I do think the window is closed because politics can be
0:02:49 > 0:02:52quite a brutal game.
0:02:52 > 0:02:55When is the Government going to stand up against the hard
0:02:55 > 0:02:58Brexiteers who mainly inhabit these benches?
0:02:58 > 0:03:01She does not actually have a majority for her
0:03:01 > 0:03:02policy in her Cabinet.
0:03:02 > 0:03:06It was advice of a different kind that hit the Government
0:03:06 > 0:03:08when BuzzFeed published leaked civil service analysis suggesting that,
0:03:08 > 0:03:11under various off-the-shelf trading models, the UK would be less well
0:03:11 > 0:03:15off in 15 years than if we'd stayed in the EU.
0:03:15 > 0:03:20But Brexit Minister Steve Baker wasn't worried about the forecasts.
0:03:20 > 0:03:24I think that they are always wrong, and wrong for good reasons.
0:03:24 > 0:03:26The analysis was grist to the mill for Brexit critics,
0:03:26 > 0:03:33but Theresa May probably didn't expect one minister to pile in.
0:03:33 > 0:03:35Justice Department's Phillip Lee said the leaked report couldn't just
0:03:35 > 0:03:38be dismissed and that, if anywhere near correct,
0:03:38 > 0:03:41it raised a serious question about current Brexit policy.
0:03:41 > 0:03:44But that's thinking 15 years ahead.
0:03:44 > 0:03:47One former Brexit Minister George Bridges took aim at the Government
0:03:47 > 0:03:53and the House of Lords for still not knowing what it wanted.
0:03:53 > 0:03:57All we hear day after day are conflicting, confusing voices.
0:03:57 > 0:03:59Theresa May returned from China saying she had secured £9 billion
0:03:59 > 0:04:03of business deals during the trip.
0:04:03 > 0:04:06Local media dubbed her Auntie May, while International Trade Secretary
0:04:06 > 0:04:09Liam Fox said her middle name is 'resilience', claiming foreign
0:04:09 > 0:04:14leaders were well aware of Theresa May's strength.
0:04:14 > 0:04:18You look at the Prime Minister in a different way than some of,
0:04:18 > 0:04:23let's say, the internal tea room discussions in the UK do.
0:04:23 > 0:04:26While at home there was speculation about her ability to lead,
0:04:26 > 0:04:27Auntie May herself was clear.
0:04:27 > 0:04:29I am not a quitter.
0:04:29 > 0:04:32She will be relieved the only resignation she was offered this
0:04:32 > 0:04:38week was from a minister who'd shown up late to Parliament.
0:04:38 > 0:04:40I'm thoroughly ashamed at not being in my place,
0:04:40 > 0:04:42and therefore I shall be offering my resignation
0:04:42 > 0:04:43to the Prime Minister.
0:04:43 > 0:04:46But with open warfare in her party, calls to step up her game,
0:04:46 > 0:04:49and a crucial Cabinet meeting on Brexit within days,
0:04:49 > 0:04:52Theresa May knows she needs to do something special to ensure the next
0:04:52 > 0:05:00departure isn't hers.
0:05:02 > 0:05:07There is plenty to talk about with my panel of political insiders. It
0:05:07 > 0:05:12feels like Theresa May's worst week since last week that she began the
0:05:12 > 0:05:17show but talking about how difficult it was with fights within the party.
0:05:17 > 0:05:24Is it even worse? It is about the same. What is interesting, if I can
0:05:24 > 0:05:31put this in some context, I am working in a project with the Prime
0:05:31 > 0:05:36Minister at the moment. Many Prime Minister 's worry about being
0:05:36 > 0:05:41deposed but it is rare to happen. From 1968 Harold Wilson was in
0:05:41 > 0:05:50trouble and he survived another eight years. I'm not predicting...
0:05:50 > 0:05:53John Major survived until the general election. This is a constant
0:05:53 > 0:05:59theme in British politics that Prime Minister 's are rarely deposed at
0:05:59 > 0:06:03the moment I work on the assumption she will be around for some time to
0:06:03 > 0:06:09come.It is highly distracting though. It cannot help with the
0:06:09 > 0:06:16issue of the Government or wrecks it for that matter.All of Theresa
0:06:16 > 0:06:21May's woes art of her own making. It is about showing backbone and spine
0:06:21 > 0:06:25and having a Brexit policy and sticking with it. I find it
0:06:25 > 0:06:30extraordinary we will have two meetings with the Brexit War Cabinet
0:06:30 > 0:06:34on Wednesday and Thursday of this week to decide the Brexit policy.
0:06:34 > 0:06:39She has been in office for a long time it is a long time since the
0:06:39 > 0:06:43last election. It is a total travesty of leadership that is going
0:06:43 > 0:06:49on. All of her problems are of her own making. She could be doing with
0:06:49 > 0:06:51warring factions in her party, the opposition and all the other
0:06:51 > 0:06:55threats, just to be a strong Prime Minister. Making it clear to the
0:06:55 > 0:07:01likes of Philip Hammond, you are doubtful that he should have been
0:07:01 > 0:07:08out a long time ago if she had the will and strength to do so.Is it
0:07:08 > 0:07:11not by being ambiguous about her position on terror, and she has been
0:07:11 > 0:07:18able to remain as leader of the Conservative Party?Completely. I
0:07:18 > 0:07:21disagree with Julia and Steve that there is a third way in all of this.
0:07:21 > 0:07:28I believe all her problems are not of her own making. Brexit was not of
0:07:28 > 0:07:32her own making. She somehow had to try to get this through parliament
0:07:32 > 0:07:41where she has no majority, where she has eight Cabinet split and it is a
0:07:41 > 0:07:44huge problem. The only reason she is there is because she has not made a
0:07:44 > 0:07:49big decision, she has not got off the fence she is trying to keep the
0:07:49 > 0:07:54ship together and compromise. As was said in the brilliant speech in the
0:07:54 > 0:07:59House of Lords, to govern is to choose. Tony Blair said that this is
0:07:59 > 0:08:03the year of choice. The next six months will be the six months of
0:08:03 > 0:08:08choices for Theresa May. User needs to get the choices on Brexit, market
0:08:08 > 0:08:13control, sovereignty, access to huge, great big decisions. She needs
0:08:13 > 0:08:22to get that past four different hurdles was achieved to get the
0:08:22 > 0:08:25Cabinet on board among her own MPs to stay alive and stay in charge
0:08:25 > 0:08:28having made those decisions. Then she has too persuade the EU to buy
0:08:28 > 0:08:33whatever it is she will sell. I find it very, very hard indeed to think
0:08:33 > 0:08:37she will get over all four hurdles by the end of the year. Therefore I
0:08:37 > 0:08:41am afraid I cannot see her as leading the Tory Party by the end of
0:08:41 > 0:08:47it.I think it would be risky for anyone to make any predictions. Can
0:08:47 > 0:08:55I point out that 2018 was not the year of choice?2016 was the year of
0:08:55 > 0:09:00choice. I care about what the British electorate wants. The
0:09:00 > 0:09:05British electorate made their choice in 2016. Theresa May did not
0:09:05 > 0:09:11increase her majority of the 85% of people voted for two major parties
0:09:11 > 0:09:15in the Ukip and the other parties supported Brexit. There is a mandate
0:09:15 > 0:09:19we need to get on and do the will of the British people.I completely
0:09:19 > 0:09:23agree with Tom about these hurdles. They are almost impossible to get
0:09:23 > 0:09:29over. But that would apply to any Prime Minister. So, you have to ask
0:09:29 > 0:09:33the question, what does it solve? In the longer term, changing leader
0:09:33 > 0:09:38might give the more electoral success, who knows? But it does not
0:09:38 > 0:09:42solve getting over those hurdles you could have Boris Johnson saying,
0:09:42 > 0:09:49Britain can rule the waves. Those hurdles will still be there.But a
0:09:49 > 0:09:52Prime Minister who knew more about... .Mac will come back to this
0:09:52 > 0:09:55later in the programme. In the meantime we will move on.
0:09:55 > 0:09:58The Home Secretary, Amber Rudd, has been speaking this morning
0:09:58 > 0:10:00to the Andrew Marr Show, and she claimed the Cabinet
0:10:00 > 0:10:02isn't as divided over Brexit as some claim.
0:10:02 > 0:10:05I have a surprise for the Brexiteers, which is the committee
0:10:05 > 0:10:08that meets in order to help make these decisions, is meeting, as you
0:10:08 > 0:10:11rightly say, twice this week, is more united than they think.
0:10:11 > 0:10:13We meet in the committee, we meet privately for discussions.
0:10:13 > 0:10:16I think we will arrive at something which suits us all.
0:10:16 > 0:10:19There will be choices to be made within them but we all want the same
0:10:19 > 0:10:23thing, which is to arrive at a deal that works for the UK, that
0:10:23 > 0:10:24looks ahead.
0:10:24 > 0:10:27It's not just about protecting trade behind us, it's about looking ahead
0:10:27 > 0:10:29to what kind of country we want to be afterwards.
0:10:29 > 0:10:31We all have those interests at heart.
0:10:31 > 0:10:33And I'm joined now by the chairman of the Conservative Party,
0:10:33 > 0:10:38Brandon Lewis.
0:10:38 > 0:10:43Thank you for coming in. Amber Rudd is saying the Cabinet is more united
0:10:43 > 0:10:45than people think. The parties that he doesn't look that way from some
0:10:45 > 0:10:49of the things they have heard this week. It is your job to get them on
0:10:49 > 0:10:53the same page in order to make that happen, do you need to spell out a
0:10:53 > 0:11:02vision of what Brexit will look like so they can get behind it?It is
0:11:02 > 0:11:06like what Amber said. The Cabinet is united behind the Prime Minister to
0:11:06 > 0:11:12make sure we get a good deal for the European Union.We are hearing lots
0:11:12 > 0:11:19of noises, complaining. They want to know more about what the end state
0:11:19 > 0:11:26will be otherwise they will row more.Where I disagree is all MPs,
0:11:26 > 0:11:32certainly in the Conservative Party, are united in seeing we get a good
0:11:32 > 0:11:36deal on leaving the EU for the United Kingdom.Bernard Jenkin
0:11:36 > 0:11:41saying we need to end confusion in government. They are complaining
0:11:41 > 0:11:45about the present uncertainty. Working out what is the right deal
0:11:45 > 0:11:48for the United Kingdom. In negotiations we are having with a 27
0:11:48 > 0:11:52partners who want to continue to trade with in the European Union is
0:11:52 > 0:11:56a very serious and, located piece of work. We never said this was an easy
0:11:56 > 0:12:01piece of work and it is why there are meetings of the subcommittee in
0:12:01 > 0:12:07the Cabinet going through the details. We have the deal, the first
0:12:07 > 0:12:12stage of the deal, before Christmas. We must look to the next stage which
0:12:12 > 0:12:16is agreeing the situation in the period of translation after March
0:12:16 > 0:12:212000 and 19. The ultimate deal that we want, for people in the United
0:12:21 > 0:12:25Kingdom, after the transition period as well.We're all waiting with
0:12:25 > 0:12:32breath. Your backbenchers, whatever side of the other in they are on the
0:12:32 > 0:12:36desperately want to know what the end state will look like. After the
0:12:36 > 0:12:41Cabinet subcommittees meet later in the week, we get more detail?There
0:12:41 > 0:12:45are a couple of key issues. Within Brexit we have been very clear.
0:12:45 > 0:12:49We're going to leave the European Union, and the customs union. We
0:12:49 > 0:12:55want to make sure we can leave the control of the Borders to the United
0:12:55 > 0:12:58Kingdom, the Government of the United Kingdom. When I am talking to
0:12:58 > 0:13:04residents, across the country, they also want to know that the Prime
0:13:04 > 0:13:08Minister is focused on issues that matter to people every day. They're
0:13:08 > 0:13:11getting good education or housing opportunities for people. The
0:13:11 > 0:13:14knowledge and confidence there will be growth in the economy and
0:13:14 > 0:13:18security in the future as well.It is hard for the Dublin to get on
0:13:18 > 0:13:23with that whenever such a fight within the party among backbenchers
0:13:23 > 0:13:26and senior influential people, coming out and criticising the
0:13:26 > 0:13:31party, criticising the leadership. Until there is more clarity on
0:13:31 > 0:13:37Brexit you will not be able
0:13:41 > 0:13:42Brexit you will not be able to get on with the other policies because
0:13:42 > 0:13:46there is such a row in the party.We have a range of views, expertise and
0:13:46 > 0:13:48great talent to draw on all stop people putting their ideas forward.
0:13:48 > 0:13:51Jacob is a really good example of that. We saw what happened the other
0:13:51 > 0:13:54night with the hard left doing everything they can to try to stop
0:13:54 > 0:13:57people having their safest we have to ultimately make decisions about
0:13:57 > 0:14:05what we think is right for the country in the longer run. -- having
0:14:05 > 0:14:09their say about what we have to ultimately make decisions about.Do
0:14:09 > 0:14:19you worry whether there is a hidden agenda?My experience has been the
0:14:19 > 0:14:23civil service in this country has been superb. They work hard in the
0:14:23 > 0:14:27best interests of the Government. It is their job to give impartial
0:14:27 > 0:14:32views. You think they do? That is one reason why the world is envious
0:14:32 > 0:14:36of our civil service and rightly so. Our job as ministers and the
0:14:36 > 0:14:41Government ultimately is to make decisions on their behalf as you
0:14:41 > 0:14:44give consideration and ultimately we are the ones who have to make the
0:14:44 > 0:14:49decisions.Jacob Rees Mogg says they are fiddling the figures and putting
0:14:49 > 0:14:55out information that is wrong.As Amber Rudd herself said, one of the
0:14:55 > 0:15:02most gracious and intelligent people I know, on this, I slightly
0:15:02 > 0:15:07disagree. Perhaps they are doing. In the leaked reports, which have not
0:15:07 > 0:15:13been approved and signed off by ministers, it is about forecasts. It
0:15:13 > 0:15:16does not take into account what the final negotiation will be nor the
0:15:16 > 0:15:19final decisions let alone the domestic policy, which we are
0:15:19 > 0:15:25getting on with. Making sure that people have opportunities and
0:15:25 > 0:15:28businesses can grow.You mentioned the scuffle at Jacob Rees Mogg was
0:15:28 > 0:15:32involved in earlier in the week, some fairly ugly scenes which no one
0:15:32 > 0:15:35wants to see those that you have plans to tackle intimidation in
0:15:35 > 0:15:40political life?
0:15:40 > 0:15:44We cannot allow the hard left to create a situation where people feel
0:15:44 > 0:15:49so intimidated they are not prepared to come forward and have their say.
0:15:49 > 0:15:54What we are seeing, and what we saw in the report is actually people on
0:15:54 > 0:15:57the left giving horrendous abuse to people across the political
0:15:57 > 0:16:02spectrum. I do agree, whether someone's views are at the centre,
0:16:02 > 0:16:05right or left, they should have the freedom and knowledge they can come
0:16:05 > 0:16:13forward and stand as a candidate. We are going to change the law to make
0:16:13 > 0:16:21it against the law for people to intimidate people. But also from the
0:16:21 > 0:16:26Conservative Party point of view, internally we will have a respect
0:16:26 > 0:16:34pledge that all of our candidates will sign up to. If they breach that
0:16:34 > 0:16:41cold, we will suspend them.It's often Labour politicians who are the
0:16:41 > 0:16:45target of a lot of abuse. It is Diane Abbott who gets far and away
0:16:45 > 0:16:51the most abuse on Twitter. How can you be sure these aren't members of
0:16:51 > 0:16:55your own party or your own supporters who are abusing left-wing
0:16:55 > 0:17:00politicians?We have to differentiate. We should be able to
0:17:00 > 0:17:04robust we have our debates. I have debated with Diane Abbott over her
0:17:04 > 0:17:12inability to get her numbers right on police numbers. We have seen the
0:17:12 > 0:17:21Shadow Chancellor... However it is from, it is not acceptable. I will
0:17:21 > 0:17:26deal with that. We need to have good, clear, freedom of speech,
0:17:26 > 0:17:30robust debate with respect and I respect the Labour Party to do the
0:17:30 > 0:17:36right thing and condemn what we saw the other night, and see the
0:17:36 > 0:17:39leadership do the right thing. There's no evidence it had anything
0:17:39 > 0:17:45to do the Labour Party.What we do know is when you have the Shadow
0:17:45 > 0:17:50Chancellor of the country encouraging abuse of people
0:17:50 > 0:17:56individually...He denies that. He says he actually argues against that
0:17:56 > 0:18:05and says he condemned it.What anybody can see, anybody can look up
0:18:05 > 0:18:08what John McDonnell said. We have not seen anyone in the senior
0:18:08 > 0:18:12echelons of the Labour Party do anything to condemn this kind of
0:18:12 > 0:18:17action or come out and say they will sign up to a respect pledge but we
0:18:17 > 0:18:22will do that.Getting back to the Tory party, it is not just the
0:18:22 > 0:18:26ructions that have erupted this week, there has been a lot of
0:18:26 > 0:18:30criticism of Theresa May's leadership, Heidi Allen saying it
0:18:30 > 0:18:35was time to get a grip and lead, another MP said he had a profound
0:18:35 > 0:18:44fear of Jeremy Corbyn becoming leader if they don't get their act
0:18:44 > 0:18:48together. It is difficult to manage a febrile situation in which a large
0:18:48 > 0:18:53number of your MPs don't seem to want Theresa May to lead the party
0:18:53 > 0:19:02into the next election.I know Heidi and Johnnie very well. I have heard
0:19:02 > 0:19:05him be very clear that Theresa May is the right person to lead the
0:19:05 > 0:19:12country and actually Theresa May as someone who cares passionately about
0:19:12 > 0:19:16getting fairness in society, opportunity for people...Why do
0:19:16 > 0:19:20your own MPs not appear to understand that?We should all be
0:19:20 > 0:19:28uniting behind our leader.Funnily enough that is what David Lidington
0:19:28 > 0:19:31said on the Andrew Marr Show last week when he said it was time to
0:19:31 > 0:19:36come together in a spirit of mutual respect. Will they listen to you
0:19:36 > 0:19:41this week, stop the sniping from the sidelines?I have been speaking to
0:19:41 > 0:19:45colleagues and myself, what I get consistently is they want us to be
0:19:45 > 0:19:52focused on the job we should be doing. The job I think most of your
0:19:52 > 0:19:57viewers would want us to get on with is delivering a good Brexit but also
0:19:57 > 0:20:01we have a domestic agenda to deliver, like supporting the NHS,
0:20:01 > 0:20:06making sure businesses can grow, people keeping more money in their
0:20:06 > 0:20:11pocket and a country that is growing and optimistic about its future
0:20:11 > 0:20:14opportunities.One Conservative council got itself in trouble this
0:20:14 > 0:20:18week, they run out of money in Northamptonshire. The leader of the
0:20:18 > 0:20:23council said they had been warning the Government from about 2014 that
0:20:23 > 0:20:29they couldn't cope with the level of cuts they were facing. Did you not
0:20:29 > 0:20:36listen to her?
0:20:36 > 0:20:45listen to her?Across local government councils hopping -- ... I
0:20:45 > 0:20:52do think there are more efficiencies that can be found.In
0:20:52 > 0:20:56Northamptonshire they say they have actually run out of money.District
0:20:56 > 0:21:00authorities can look at how they can do more, about sharing services,
0:21:00 > 0:21:05sharing senior management and saving substantial amounts of money. I
0:21:05 > 0:21:08would encourage those local authorities to look at that
0:21:08 > 0:21:11opportunity because it means they can put more of their time and
0:21:11 > 0:21:16effort and the money they do have is focusing on giving good first-class
0:21:16 > 0:21:21services.You are of course going to allow them to raise council tax, and
0:21:21 > 0:21:25we have had warnings from other Tory run councils as well saying they are
0:21:25 > 0:21:30running out of money. It is a bit difficult though isn't it when you
0:21:30 > 0:21:35have prided yourself on low taxes that many people are likely to see
0:21:35 > 0:21:42pretty big rises in their council tax.We have to make difficult
0:21:42 > 0:21:49decisions due to the economic legacy we inherited. Council tax roughly
0:21:49 > 0:21:52doubled under Labour, I was a council leader where the party had
0:21:52 > 0:21:57run my counsel at the time with increases of 16% year-on-year. We
0:21:57 > 0:22:05have brought that back down so we had the council tax freeze, and I
0:22:05 > 0:22:08would encourage council leaders to look at how they spend their money.
0:22:08 > 0:22:15But council taxes will be going up, you reckon?They will be using the
0:22:15 > 0:22:21ability they have to raise it a few percent to give good local services.
0:22:21 > 0:22:24People are looking at how efficient they are, how they are focused on
0:22:24 > 0:22:28their local needs to get good Conservative governments in May this
0:22:28 > 0:22:30year.Thank you.
0:22:30 > 0:22:32Yesterday, thousands of people marched on the rainy
0:22:32 > 0:22:34streets of London to protest against what organisers described
0:22:34 > 0:22:35as a crisis in NHS funding.
0:22:35 > 0:22:37The Shadow Health Secretary, Jonathan Ashworth,
0:22:37 > 0:22:39was there and told the crowds that under Labour
0:22:39 > 0:22:42there would be more money for the NHS, higher pay for staff,
0:22:42 > 0:22:45and privatisation would end.
0:22:45 > 0:22:49No more PFI hospitals.
0:22:49 > 0:22:51No more Carillion outsourcing, leaving hospitals dirty and unclean,
0:22:51 > 0:22:59affecting patient safety.
0:22:59 > 0:23:01And we're putting Virgin Care, and organisations like
0:23:01 > 0:23:02that, on notice today.
0:23:02 > 0:23:04No more suing of the NHS, no more privatisation.
0:23:04 > 0:23:06Privatisation comes to the end with a Labour government,
0:23:06 > 0:23:09as we get rid of that Lansley Act and restore, and indeed reinstate,
0:23:09 > 0:23:17a public National Health Service.
0:23:23 > 0:23:25And Jonathan Ashworth is back in his constituency in Leicester.
0:23:25 > 0:23:30He joins me from there now.
0:23:30 > 0:23:38Good morning. On that March you were demanding the NHS get the funding it
0:23:38 > 0:23:42needs but we have been looking back at Labour's manifesto and you
0:23:42 > 0:23:46weren't really promising very much more money for the NHS than the Tory
0:23:46 > 0:23:53government says it will deliver.We would be putting in an extra £5
0:23:53 > 0:23:58billion into the NHS this year. You will recall that Simon Stevens, the
0:23:58 > 0:24:02head of the NHS, was asking for an extra four billion this year. They
0:24:02 > 0:24:07didn't get that in the November budget but we would put an extra £5
0:24:07 > 0:24:13billion into the NHS this year.You were talking about an increase of 2%
0:24:13 > 0:24:18per year, more than this Government is promising which is 1.2% this
0:24:18 > 0:24:24year, but historically health spending usually goes up by about 4%
0:24:24 > 0:24:29per year and you were promising half of that.Yes, over 62 years it went
0:24:29 > 0:24:33up by 4% but we would be increasing expenditure quite substantially in
0:24:33 > 0:24:39the NHS in the early years of the Parliament.But to an average of 2%
0:24:39 > 0:24:43a year over the Government?Yes but we also said we would establish an
0:24:43 > 0:24:47OBR for the health service to advise government on long-term spending
0:24:47 > 0:24:52needs of the NHS so we would have an independent body giving us an
0:24:52 > 0:24:56accurate assessment of the demographic changes, the staffing
0:24:56 > 0:25:01needs of the NHS, which would inform future spending decisions. In the
0:25:01 > 0:25:05early years of the parliament we would be spending substantially more
0:25:05 > 0:25:10on the NHS, not just for hospitals which are overcrowded because we
0:25:10 > 0:25:14have lost 14,500 beds since 2010 but also more investment in community
0:25:14 > 0:25:20health service.It's very difficult for you to give statistics about how
0:25:20 > 0:25:24much trouble the NHS is in when you were promising a very modest
0:25:24 > 0:25:29increase in spending of 2%. Under the last Labour government, health
0:25:29 > 0:25:34spending rose by 6% per year, under Margaret Thatcher's government it
0:25:34 > 0:25:41went up by 3% a year. Your manifesto pledge was to give the NHS on
0:25:41 > 0:25:45average less money than Margaret Thatcher did.But we would be
0:25:45 > 0:25:51allocating £5 billion for the NHS. You say it is a modest increase, if
0:25:51 > 0:25:55I could say it is substantially more than this Government is putting into
0:25:55 > 0:26:01the NHS and when you have Simon Stevens saying the NHS needs four
0:26:01 > 0:26:04billion this year, we were promising more than that so you say it is
0:26:04 > 0:26:07modest but I suggest it is a significant level of investment
0:26:07 > 0:26:13which would allow us to get waiting lists down. They could reach 5
0:26:13 > 0:26:17million under the Government. It would allow us to deal with
0:26:17 > 0:26:25overcrowded hospitals and allow us to invest in
0:26:26 > 0:26:29to invest in community health services, stop the cuts to child and
0:26:29 > 0:26:31adolescent mental health services, allow us to recruit so we have the
0:26:31 > 0:26:42nurses we need.That is what you can buy for £5 billion you say, is
0:26:42 > 0:26:47scrapping tuition fees are better use of the money?I'm always going
0:26:47 > 0:26:55to argue for more money for the NHS, as someone who aspires to be the
0:26:55 > 0:26:59Health Secretary.And therefore argue against scrapping tuition
0:26:59 > 0:27:08fees?The tuition fee pledge was a promise made by Jeremy Corbyn and
0:27:08 > 0:27:11John McDonnell when Jeremy Corbyn run for the leadership of the Labour
0:27:11 > 0:27:16Party and proved to be very popular electorally as a pledge so I can see
0:27:16 > 0:27:20why the Labour Party will be sticking with that, but I'm always
0:27:20 > 0:27:31going to be making the case for more money for the NHS. We have seen £6
0:27:31 > 0:27:37billion of cuts and
0:27:37 > 0:27:41billion of cuts and other...It is not clear the amount of money
0:27:41 > 0:27:45offered by Labour will be sufficient to offer their aspirations in social
0:27:45 > 0:27:54care.I would say it would be. Across the Parliament we would put
0:27:54 > 0:27:57an extra £8 billion but we know we have to look at better ways of
0:27:57 > 0:28:05integrating health and social care. The NHS was created in 1948, social
0:28:05 > 0:28:08care was created as a sister service but they have never worked together
0:28:08 > 0:28:14as closely as they should. We are older, with various different
0:28:14 > 0:28:19conditions, we know the social care system and the NHS will have to work
0:28:19 > 0:28:22more closely together so we would look at integrating properly health
0:28:22 > 0:28:28and social care but that is a medium to long-term plan, not something a
0:28:28 > 0:28:33politician can deliver overnight.It was made clear at the rally you work
0:28:33 > 0:28:36at yesterday Labour politicians pledging no more outsourcing in the
0:28:36 > 0:28:41NHS, what does that actually mean? No more private companies of any
0:28:41 > 0:28:46kind involved in healthcare at all? What we would want to bring an end
0:28:46 > 0:28:53to is the way in which, because of the health and social care act from
0:28:53 > 0:28:56for years ago, it means community health contracts have to always be
0:28:56 > 0:29:03put out to tender. Millions is wasted, some even say billions
0:29:03 > 0:29:07wasted, on the constant tendering of contracts. We have just seen a
0:29:07 > 0:29:11children's health contracts go to virgin care in Lancashire. When
0:29:11 > 0:29:15virgin care didn't win a contract in Surrey, they forced the NHS to
0:29:15 > 0:29:21settle with them out of court. Macmillan Cancer Support have one in
0:29:21 > 0:29:25Staffordshire, the Red Cross, St John's ambulance, they all have
0:29:25 > 0:29:29contracts provided for under the very act you say you want to repeal.
0:29:29 > 0:29:40You don't want these people involved in health care delivery?Macmillan
0:29:40 > 0:29:45nurses have had a role since the 1970s. They complement what the NHS
0:29:45 > 0:29:49offers so we are not talking about ending the voluntary sector role.
0:29:49 > 0:29:55This isn't just voluntary services. No, but we are talking about private
0:29:55 > 0:29:59firms where a full contract for service delivery, say a children's
0:29:59 > 0:30:05health service, is handed over to virgin, that means the staff are
0:30:05 > 0:30:09handed over, the only way virgin or whatever that private sector company
0:30:09 > 0:30:14is can make a profit is by cutting down on terms and conditions. It
0:30:14 > 0:30:18means the staff are often down branded, knocked down a level in
0:30:18 > 0:30:23terms of their pay, and we don't believe that delivers the quality of
0:30:23 > 0:30:34care children deserve and that's what we want to end.
0:30:37 > 0:30:41You talk about the long waiting lists. Under the last Labour
0:30:41 > 0:30:45government that they came in at a time in the NHS was and a lot of
0:30:45 > 0:30:48pressure and delivery used private sector companies to work through the
0:30:48 > 0:30:52backlog of people who were waiting for operations in order to get the
0:30:52 > 0:30:56waiting lists down quickly. Do you not think that the NHS as an estate
0:30:56 > 0:31:07now where you may be forced to consider that?The NHS has always
0:31:07 > 0:31:10got extra capacity from private service providers in that
0:31:10 > 0:31:14circumstance. The Labour government was not handing over the delivery
0:31:14 > 0:31:19lock, stock and barrel for the whole sort of health contract.That's the
0:31:19 > 0:31:24difference. But you might still buy in services. When you say
0:31:24 > 0:31:32outsourcing is finished, it doesn't mean the whole involvement of
0:31:32 > 0:31:36private companies is finished?The NHS will not build its own
0:31:36 > 0:31:41ambulances. We will still buy from the private sector. Without capacity
0:31:41 > 0:31:46in the NHS we will buy in from the private sector. If you want to get
0:31:46 > 0:31:49the rescheduled by Easter, if you wanted to do that, the anyway the
0:31:49 > 0:31:55NHS could do that is by buying in from the private sector. There is a
0:31:55 > 0:31:58difference between spot buying in the private sector and handing out a
0:31:58 > 0:32:03complete contract. Take a really in four example with the cleaning
0:32:03 > 0:32:07contract.I will have to leave you on and ask you about Haringey
0:32:07 > 0:32:13Council before we go. Clare Cockburn was on the Andrew Marr show earlier
0:32:13 > 0:32:21and she has been giving interviews, talking about bullying within the
0:32:21 > 0:32:26Labour Party and at council meetings. -- Kober thought she said
0:32:26 > 0:32:31she could not complain to the NEC because she thought that was in
0:32:31 > 0:32:37itself a problem. That is deeply worrying, isn't it?I don't know all
0:32:37 > 0:32:42the ins and outs I have seen what is in the newspapers but I used to be a
0:32:42 > 0:32:50member of the National Executive committee until 18 months ago. Clare
0:32:50 > 0:32:53Kober, if there were specific complaints, they do need to go to
0:32:53 > 0:32:57the NEC and the NEC would look at that. Various committees would look
0:32:57 > 0:33:03at that very seriously.You reached a point when a senior member of the
0:33:03 > 0:33:06party does not trust the NEC to sort this out because she thinks they are
0:33:06 > 0:33:12part of the problem and not the answer.I would say that the NEC, in
0:33:12 > 0:33:18my experience, would look at these things. The NEC got involved in
0:33:18 > 0:33:23mediation talks. I am not a member of it anymore but what I understand
0:33:23 > 0:33:28is a substantial number of Labour councillors in Haringey asked the
0:33:28 > 0:33:32NEC to intervene I don't know the ins and outs but it is clear there
0:33:32 > 0:33:36are two sides of the story. On specific allegations where there was
0:33:36 > 0:33:41a meeting in Haringey where there was anti-Semitic chanting in things
0:33:41 > 0:33:45like that, if those people are Labour Party members were they need
0:33:45 > 0:33:49to be reported. If people are being anti-Semitic they will be thrown out
0:33:49 > 0:33:52of the Labour Party, simple as that. Thank you.
0:33:52 > 0:33:54Allegations of sexual harassment and bullying rocked Westminster
0:33:54 > 0:33:55when they emerged last autumn.
0:33:55 > 0:33:58By the end of the year, two Cabinet ministers had resigned
0:33:58 > 0:34:00and several MPs from different parties had been suspended
0:34:00 > 0:34:03pending investigations.
0:34:03 > 0:34:05The Government promised action, and announced a cross-party working
0:34:05 > 0:34:07group to decide what it should be.
0:34:07 > 0:34:09But, so far, it hasn't recommended anything.
0:34:09 > 0:34:11Ellie Price has been finding out what's going on.
0:34:11 > 0:34:16And, just a warning, her report includes some flash photography.
0:34:16 > 0:34:19It wasn't parliament's finest hour.
0:34:19 > 0:34:22Revelations of shady goings-on, of sexual harassment in the Palace's
0:34:22 > 0:34:26bars and back rooms, of bullying in its offices.
0:34:26 > 0:34:30Of course, the vast majority of MPs and their staff were not implicated.
0:34:30 > 0:34:33But it was enough that all the party leaders agreed
0:34:33 > 0:34:36something needed to be done.
0:34:36 > 0:34:39We should not rest until everyone working in Parliament can feel safe,
0:34:39 > 0:34:43valued and respected.
0:34:43 > 0:34:46We have a chance now to get this right, for everyone
0:34:46 > 0:34:47on the parliamentary estate.
0:34:47 > 0:34:49Political leaders agreed to set up a cross-party
0:34:49 > 0:34:52working group in November.
0:34:52 > 0:34:54MPs, peers, and other interested groups have been working
0:34:54 > 0:34:57on the proposals ever since.
0:34:57 > 0:35:00The Leader of the House had said she wanted the recommendations to be
0:35:00 > 0:35:02voted on by Parliament and implemented by
0:35:02 > 0:35:05the end of January.
0:35:05 > 0:35:08But here we are at the beginning of February and still the report
0:35:08 > 0:35:10hasn't been published.
0:35:10 > 0:35:13Sources close to the working group tell me it was held up
0:35:13 > 0:35:16before Christmas and then its scope was widened.
0:35:16 > 0:35:19It was then due to be released on Thursday but I'm told it
0:35:19 > 0:35:24still needs final sign off from the party leaders.
0:35:24 > 0:35:27I've been told there is now broad consensus among members on the group
0:35:27 > 0:35:30that its recommendations are suitably robust.
0:35:30 > 0:35:33Sources close to the talks told me there's recommendations are likely
0:35:33 > 0:35:36to include a new independent grievance procedure for staff,
0:35:36 > 0:35:39consent lessons for MPs, starting after the next general
0:35:39 > 0:35:43election, a new code of conduct, and the one most likely
0:35:43 > 0:35:47to grab the headlines, tougher sanctions, including making
0:35:47 > 0:35:50easier the process to recall - and potentially fire
0:35:50 > 0:35:53- an MP.
0:35:53 > 0:35:56The current situation is one where I would face harsher sanctions
0:35:56 > 0:36:00and penalties for being rude about another MP on the floor
0:36:00 > 0:36:01of the House of Commons than I would if I were bullying
0:36:01 > 0:36:04or harassing a member of staff.
0:36:04 > 0:36:07I don't think that is a reasonable, or tenable, situation,
0:36:07 > 0:36:11and I think we need to give staff, and the general public we work for,
0:36:11 > 0:36:13the confidence that Parliament is not just abiding by the law
0:36:13 > 0:36:19on employment rights and workplace rights
0:36:19 > 0:36:21but actually setting a standard.
0:36:21 > 0:36:24A representative from Unite is also on the working party.
0:36:24 > 0:36:26The union says its members, who work in Parliament,
0:36:26 > 0:36:30have lost faith in the system.
0:36:30 > 0:36:33Our members don't have confidence at the moment that there's
0:36:33 > 0:36:35going to be enough change in Parliament to make
0:36:35 > 0:36:38a difference to the bullying and harassment culture.
0:36:38 > 0:36:41There needs to be positive engagement with staff and encourage
0:36:41 > 0:36:45them, and give them confidence that, if they make a complaint over
0:36:45 > 0:36:51bullying and harassment, that there will be proper investigation.
0:36:51 > 0:36:53And the working group has its work cut out.
0:36:53 > 0:36:56As HR experts consulted during the process point out,
0:36:56 > 0:37:00reforming the existing employment rules in Parliament
0:37:00 > 0:37:03is not straightforward.
0:37:03 > 0:37:06One of the big challenges, you've got 650 MPs, who are all
0:37:06 > 0:37:10running their own offices and staff.
0:37:10 > 0:37:14So, effectively, you've got 650 small firms in effect.
0:37:14 > 0:37:18And the extent to which they have had previous experience in managing
0:37:18 > 0:37:21people, and running businesses, is probably limited
0:37:21 > 0:37:23in many instances.
0:37:23 > 0:37:26So, that's part of the problem.
0:37:26 > 0:37:29But any overhaul of the system is unnecessary, says this MP
0:37:29 > 0:37:33who has been in Parliament for nearly 35 years.
0:37:33 > 0:37:35I think, by and large, the rules work as they are.
0:37:35 > 0:37:38And, if courtesy and common sense are applied, there is no need
0:37:38 > 0:37:42for any change at all.
0:37:42 > 0:37:44Yeah, there are bad apples in the barrel.
0:37:44 > 0:37:47But those bad apples tend to get weeded out pretty fast.
0:37:47 > 0:37:51And I think we could create, if we're not careful,
0:37:51 > 0:37:57a whistle-blowers charter, a witch hunters charter.
0:37:57 > 0:38:04Very difficult for a male of any age to defend against an allegation.
0:38:04 > 0:38:07I'm told the report will be published next week,
0:38:07 > 0:38:10possibly on Tuesday, and MPs will then debate
0:38:10 > 0:38:13it in the Commons.
0:38:13 > 0:38:17But it may not satisfy everyone that it's exactly what's required to put
0:38:17 > 0:38:24this House in order.
0:38:24 > 0:38:25It's coming up to 11:40am.
0:38:25 > 0:38:28You're watching the Sunday Politics.
0:38:28 > 0:38:30Coming up on the programme, we'll be talking about the violent
0:38:30 > 0:38:33scenes after protestors interrupted a speech by the Conservative
0:38:33 > 0:38:34MP Jacob Rees Mogg, and plenty more.
0:38:34 > 0:38:42First though, it's time for the Sunday Politics where you are.
0:38:46 > 0:38:49Hello and welcome to the London part of the show.
0:38:49 > 0:38:51I'm Norman Smith.
0:38:51 > 0:38:55Joining me for the duration of the programme,
0:38:55 > 0:38:56Dawn Butler, Labour MP
0:38:56 > 0:38:59for Brent Central and Shadow Women and Equalities Secretary,
0:38:59 > 0:39:02and Greg Hands, Conservative MP for Chelsea and Fulham, and Minister
0:39:02 > 0:39:04for International Trade.
0:39:04 > 0:39:06Greetings to you both.
0:39:06 > 0:39:09Now this week Claire Kober, Leader of Haringey Council, announced
0:39:09 > 0:39:13she was standing down from her role amid accusations that she had
0:39:13 > 0:39:17suffered sexism and bullying from sections of the Labour Party,
0:39:17 > 0:39:21creating a mood of unrest in the run-up to the local
0:39:21 > 0:39:24elections in May.
0:39:24 > 0:39:29Jerry Thomas has more.
0:39:29 > 0:39:31Claire Kober's announcement follows a public row her Administration has
0:39:31 > 0:39:33had with Momentum, the left-wing campaign group, over controversial
0:39:33 > 0:39:36regeneration plans in Haringey.
0:39:36 > 0:39:39Momentum had urged the council to halt a controversial £2 billion
0:39:39 > 0:39:42deal with a private property developer to build six and a half
0:39:42 > 0:39:46thousand new homes.
0:39:46 > 0:39:48You're gifting the land before the people of Northumberland Park
0:39:48 > 0:39:50have been consulted about demolition.
0:39:50 > 0:39:52So, what are you going to do?
0:39:52 > 0:39:54What do you do then?
0:39:54 > 0:39:5722 Haringey councillors opposed to the scheme
0:39:57 > 0:40:01asked Labour's National Executive to intervene in the
0:40:01 > 0:40:02scheme, which was a public- private partnership
0:40:02 > 0:40:05between the council and developers.
0:40:05 > 0:40:07The NEC passed a motion requesting the scheme be stopped
0:40:07 > 0:40:09unless there was more of a consensus.
0:40:09 > 0:40:13It meant Miss Kober could not sign off the deal.
0:40:13 > 0:40:16This decision was met with criticism from several
0:40:16 > 0:40:18Labour council leaders across the country,
0:40:18 > 0:40:21who publicly backed Haringey's leader.
0:40:21 > 0:40:23Miss Kober feels she wasn't consulted over the NEC's
0:40:23 > 0:40:28ruling, which, she says was handled very badly.
0:40:28 > 0:40:30The NEC's action was unprecedented.
0:40:30 > 0:40:33It was unhelpful.
0:40:33 > 0:40:36I'm certainly of the view that those in Labour local
0:40:36 > 0:40:40government feel similarly to me, over 70 council leaders came out
0:40:40 > 0:40:44to say that this was an unfortunate and unacceptable act.
0:40:44 > 0:40:48I'm in no doubt that the behaviour and actions of
0:40:48 > 0:40:52certain individuals at certain times meet the test of both sexism,
0:40:52 > 0:40:56bullying and politically intimidatory behaviour.
0:40:56 > 0:40:59Her decision to stand down follows months of acrimonious
0:40:59 > 0:41:02deselection battles over who should stand for
0:41:02 > 0:41:06Labour in the borough in May's local elections.
0:41:06 > 0:41:09Joining me is Sarah Hayward, a Labour councillor in Camden,
0:41:09 > 0:41:13who was leader of Camden Council from 2012 to 2017.
0:41:13 > 0:41:18And you have written very strongly in defence of Clare Kober.
0:41:18 > 0:41:20You suggest that the Labour Party has cannibalised her.
0:41:20 > 0:41:22Meaning what?
0:41:22 > 0:41:24That they have acted in a way that has
0:41:24 > 0:41:29forced her resignation.
0:41:29 > 0:41:31Your package mentioned about just how acrimonious
0:41:31 > 0:41:34the selections had become there.
0:41:34 > 0:41:37The NEC's actions last week did not follow any due process.
0:41:37 > 0:41:39They didn't involve members of the Labour group,
0:41:39 > 0:41:45or Clare Kober herself.
0:41:45 > 0:41:48The mediation that was suggested couldn't have worked
0:41:48 > 0:41:50because of the legal framework around local government,
0:41:50 > 0:41:52and so they put Clare in an impossible position.
0:41:52 > 0:41:54But, let me put it to you.
0:41:54 > 0:41:57What has happened here is she has just lost the argument.
0:41:57 > 0:42:00She has lost the argument with the local Labour Party.
0:42:00 > 0:42:03She has lost the argument with two local Labour MPs.
0:42:03 > 0:42:05She's lost the argument with local unions
0:42:05 > 0:42:06and, seemingly, lost the
0:42:06 > 0:42:07argument in the NEC, too.
0:42:07 > 0:42:08That's all that's happened.
0:42:08 > 0:42:13And yet, the councillors who support the HDV in
0:42:13 > 0:42:16the wards where that is to go ahead won their selections really easily
0:42:16 > 0:42:18and, as Clare wrote herself, in resigning, these decisions are
0:42:18 > 0:42:21difficult but textured, multifaceted decisions.
0:42:21 > 0:42:24They are not binary, they are not yes or no, and they need
0:42:24 > 0:42:27something a whole lot more adult, and a recognition of the complexity,
0:42:27 > 0:42:32than the binary decision of the NEC said.
0:42:32 > 0:42:34Well, let's just talk about the NEC's role.
0:42:34 > 0:42:42The NEC, at the end of the day, has not said, no, stop.
0:42:43 > 0:42:47They simply said, can you guys sit down and try and sort this out?
0:42:47 > 0:42:48That's all they've said.
0:42:48 > 0:42:49Yes.
0:42:49 > 0:42:51They can say that if they want to put up
0:42:51 > 0:42:54there were elections in 2014 that mentioned refurbishment and
0:42:54 > 0:42:56rebuilding of council homes.
0:42:56 > 0:42:58The current Labour group got endorsement for that.
0:42:58 > 0:43:00The election period, the administration period,
0:43:00 > 0:43:01is four years until May this year.
0:43:01 > 0:43:03Council officers can't take instruction from the NEC.
0:43:03 > 0:43:06They can't take instruction from candidates who aren't elected yet.
0:43:06 > 0:43:08They can only take instructions from the elected political masters who
0:43:08 > 0:43:11form the legitimate Administration and they are for four years.
0:43:11 > 0:43:13It has simply put the Labour Party in
0:43:13 > 0:43:18Haringey in an impossible position.
0:43:18 > 0:43:23Dawn, the NEC has many roles in life.
0:43:23 > 0:43:26But one of its roles it certainly does not have is to
0:43:26 > 0:43:28interfere in the housing policy of a local authority.
0:43:28 > 0:43:30That is nothing to do with the NEC.
0:43:30 > 0:43:32They should have kept their noses out.
0:43:32 > 0:43:34I don't think that's the case here.
0:43:34 > 0:43:35You think they do have a right?
0:43:35 > 0:43:36No, no.
0:43:36 > 0:43:40What I first of all want to say, and I think it's really
0:43:40 > 0:43:42important to put on record, that everybody acknowledges the important
0:43:42 > 0:43:44role that there has played in Haringey.
0:43:44 > 0:43:49She took over... Jeremy Corbyn has said nothing about her.Everyone has
0:43:49 > 0:43:53said she took over and led Haringey at a very difficult time for that
0:43:53 > 0:43:57she has done an important role. Everyone has been on record to
0:43:57 > 0:44:02acknowledge that and say she has done great work. I am sad she is
0:44:02 > 0:44:09stepping down. The NEC involvement is because, over 20 councillors had
0:44:09 > 0:44:14written to the NEC. Both the MPs had written to the NEC and asked them to
0:44:14 > 0:44:20maybe help in mediation.The NEC could have said, this is nothing to
0:44:20 > 0:44:26do with us.As you said earlier in the piece, what the NEC actually did
0:44:26 > 0:44:30was to say, can we pause this question is there a way we can all
0:44:30 > 0:44:36mediate and find a way through this? Let's move on to another aspect,
0:44:36 > 0:44:43which is sexism and misogyny buzzed up such as...
0:44:45 > 0:44:49Women leaders in Government experience a huge amount of
0:44:49 > 0:44:55misogyny.Give some details so people understand.Claire needs to
0:44:55 > 0:44:59speak for the sexism she suffered. There are some fairly terrible
0:44:59 > 0:45:06stories she has told me. I have had senior civil servants top down at me
0:45:06 > 0:45:10and talk at the chief executive who is a man. I have had a senior civil
0:45:10 > 0:45:15servant wink at me, I've had people second-guess my opinion and try and
0:45:15 > 0:45:22go over my head. I've had people go through my male colleague when the
0:45:22 > 0:45:28final decision rested with me, I have had death threats.Dawn Butler,
0:45:28 > 0:45:32you are the Shadow Minister for equalities and women, you are trying
0:45:32 > 0:45:37to come up with some sort of measures. When you hear that, are
0:45:37 > 0:45:40you not appalled that is going on in the Labour Party and why isn't more
0:45:40 > 0:45:47being done by your leadership to tackle it?I have to say the
0:45:47 > 0:45:52examples I gave weren't from within the Labour Party, just to be clear.
0:45:52 > 0:45:55There are examples Dawn would have experienced as a woman in Labour
0:45:55 > 0:46:00Party as well.I don't want any woman going through what she has
0:46:00 > 0:46:03gone through and what other women are going through in terms of when
0:46:03 > 0:46:09they are in positions of power. The Labour Party has very clear, robust
0:46:09 > 0:46:16policies to deal with any sexism, any racism.Isn't there are much
0:46:16 > 0:46:20easier solution, if it is for people like you in your position to
0:46:20 > 0:46:24denounce and condemns those carrying out those sorts of acts against
0:46:24 > 0:46:29Claire Kober?I will denounce any racism, sexism and bullying in a
0:46:29 > 0:46:35heartbeat but it needs more than just me or the leader denouncing it,
0:46:35 > 0:46:42as he has done.Has he?Yes, and any cases of sexism or bullying will be
0:46:42 > 0:46:48dealt with in the strictest and sternest terms because we have
0:46:48 > 0:46:52robust procedures. I would encourage people to report any cases because
0:46:52 > 0:46:58that's how we make things better. You are Camden councillor, the
0:46:58 > 0:47:02implications for the local Labour authorities who are now looking over
0:47:02 > 0:47:06their shoulder and wondering what the NEC will make of that.There is
0:47:06 > 0:47:11a real risk of that and I hope that with Claire 's resignation the NEC
0:47:11 > 0:47:18will take a pause and think about the tone may want to set. Local
0:47:18 > 0:47:22government is autonomous and constituted for four year terms in
0:47:22 > 0:47:26London and we need to be able to act in the interest of our communities
0:47:26 > 0:47:30without second guessing what our party hierarchy will do. Obviously
0:47:30 > 0:47:36the party will intervene if someone acts illegally as has happened in
0:47:36 > 0:47:42the 1980s or improperly according to sexism and bullying but that's not
0:47:42 > 0:47:47what happened in Haringey.On sexism and bullying, is this because of the
0:47:47 > 0:47:52emergence of Momentum creating a brutal culture?I think the Labour
0:47:52 > 0:47:58Party suddenly has had sexism its entire time, I experienced sexism
0:47:58 > 0:48:02when I stood for selection for Parliament myself and I'm sure
0:48:02 > 0:48:07daunted when she went through the selection process. The atmosphere
0:48:07 > 0:48:11has got very difficult within the Labour Party since Momentum have
0:48:11 > 0:48:15been on the scene.I know the media tries to blame everything on
0:48:15 > 0:48:21Momentum, I don't think that is the case.What is there a culture where
0:48:21 > 0:48:28people are intimidated and frightened to speak out?There is no
0:48:28 > 0:48:33new culture and if one is developing it will be stamped out, but local
0:48:33 > 0:48:36leaders of councils like Sarah have had to suffer because of this
0:48:36 > 0:48:39Conservative government making cuts to their budget and they are having
0:48:39 > 0:48:45to do the same work for less money. That is the elephant in the room,
0:48:45 > 0:48:50the pressure on councils is because of the cuts from Conservative
0:48:50 > 0:48:56government.Greg Hands, you have been sitting patiently. Do you have
0:48:56 > 0:49:01sympathy with Claire Kober?I do, she is Labour's most senior woman in
0:49:01 > 0:49:06local government and she's been hounded out by Momentum, closely
0:49:06 > 0:49:10aligned to Jeremy Corbyn. Across London we are seeing a hard left
0:49:10 > 0:49:17takeover. Which I particularly fear... We are learning now about
0:49:17 > 0:49:21the councils in the run-up to the local election, what I fear could
0:49:21 > 0:49:26happen is people may vote Labour in May and discover the council they
0:49:26 > 0:49:30actually get it significantly harder left than the Labour candidates may
0:49:30 > 0:49:37think they are voting for.Let's stop it there because it brings us
0:49:37 > 0:49:41on quite nicely.
0:49:41 > 0:49:42Elsewhere in London, another Labour local authority
0:49:42 > 0:49:45leader is facing opposition from within his own party and looks
0:49:45 > 0:49:48set to be facing a political challenge after decades in power.
0:49:48 > 0:49:50Sir Robin Wales was going to be the Labour candidate
0:49:50 > 0:49:53for Mayor of Newham, but after that result was mired
0:49:53 > 0:49:56in controversy and the threat of a legal challenge,
0:49:56 > 0:49:58the party this week kicked off a rerun
0:49:58 > 0:50:01of the trigger ballot to decide whether he'll be re-nominated.
0:50:01 > 0:50:03If the field is opened up to other candidates,
0:50:03 > 0:50:05this one-time stronghold of centrist Labour could take a different turn.
0:50:05 > 0:50:13Tanjil Rashid reports.
0:50:22 > 0:50:27This is Newham in 2005, desolate brownfield in the second poorest
0:50:27 > 0:50:31borough of the country. Today it is greener, shinier, taller. The
0:50:31 > 0:50:37development hasn't stopped. Newham is changing. You can see
0:50:37 > 0:50:42construction at every turn and a canopy of cranes overlooks this
0:50:42 > 0:50:47part, but one thing that hasn't changed for 23 years has been the
0:50:47 > 0:50:51man in charge, Sir Robin Wales, who has been mayor since 2002 and
0:50:51 > 0:50:56leading the council since 1995 in one form or another. In that time
0:50:56 > 0:51:01his policies have shaped the borough.If we look at education
0:51:01 > 0:51:05performance in this borough 's 25 years ago it would have been one of
0:51:05 > 0:51:09the lowest in the country and that has been transformed. 75% of young
0:51:09 > 0:51:14people going to university in Newham don't have a parent that goes to
0:51:14 > 0:51:18university which suggests they are achieving a good level of social
0:51:18 > 0:51:24mobility.Policies focused on social mobility have in her view left too
0:51:24 > 0:51:28many behind.Newham was keen to attract middle-class communities to
0:51:28 > 0:51:32come and live here and that this part of the problem, it has not
0:51:32 > 0:51:35prioritised housing for social needs because it had a view it wanted to
0:51:35 > 0:51:40attract a different group of people to live in Newham.In the last two
0:51:40 > 0:51:47council elections, Labour has won every single seat leading private
0:51:47 > 0:51:52eye to call it a 1-party state. Labour's internal selection
0:51:52 > 0:51:57processes where the real battle takes. Some councillors are
0:51:57 > 0:52:00challenging their leader's renomination to be mayor. This man
0:52:00 > 0:52:07was a member of Sir Robin Wales's cabinet but he's turned on him.We
0:52:07 > 0:52:14are standing here in an estate which they started the counting in 2005,
0:52:14 > 0:52:18there's about 389 empty units last night and only last night they are
0:52:18 > 0:52:24evicted rough sleepers in the town centre. Here there's 300 units they
0:52:24 > 0:52:27could be sleeping in and that's a disgrace.There have also been
0:52:27 > 0:52:35concerns about what critics call the mismanagement of the London Stadium
0:52:35 > 0:52:42in which £52 million was lost.We have seen the centre of gravity of
0:52:42 > 0:52:50London moving quite sharply eastwards. The biggest increase in
0:52:50 > 0:52:54employment in any London Borough thanks to the success of Newham's
0:52:54 > 0:52:58workplace programme and the mayor has to take a chunk of the credit
0:52:58 > 0:53:03for that success.Both Stephen and Sir Robin are associated with the
0:53:03 > 0:53:06centrist Labour establishment now being challenged by the rise of
0:53:06 > 0:53:09Momentum elsewhere in London but none of the councillors pushing for
0:53:09 > 0:53:17Sir Robin Wales's removal are members of the pro-Corbyn pressure
0:53:17 > 0:53:22group. Inside a vote is being taken by this branch of the Labour Party
0:53:22 > 0:53:27to determine whether to renominate the current mayor of Newham, Sir
0:53:27 > 0:53:30Robin Wales. After his controversial renomination more than a year ago,
0:53:30 > 0:53:35the party is really running the so-called trigger ballots. Even Sir
0:53:35 > 0:53:39Robin Wales himself has called on supporters to open up the nomination
0:53:39 > 0:53:46to candidates other than himself. Are you a supporter of Sir Robin
0:53:46 > 0:53:49Wales?Yes, he has done a lot of good things within the borough.I
0:53:49 > 0:53:56have mixed feelings, put it that way.He has done a good job so far
0:53:56 > 0:54:01in new one.I would like to see someone from an ethnic minority.
0:54:01 > 0:54:05With only three months ago before the council elections, Labour have
0:54:05 > 0:54:14to decide soon who leads them in Newham.
0:54:23 > 0:54:29You could say it encourages cronyism, where do you stand on 23
0:54:29 > 0:54:36years, good or bad?It should be up to the general electorate not to
0:54:36 > 0:54:39selection meetings behind closed doors in smoke-filled rooms. If the
0:54:39 > 0:54:44electorate have confidence and he's a directly elected mayor in this
0:54:44 > 0:54:47case, then I think he should put himself to the electorate and see
0:54:47 > 0:54:52what they have to say. I don't have a problem with someone serving forum
0:54:52 > 0:55:00on time.Isn't there the loss of energy new ideas?I don't agree with
0:55:00 > 0:55:04everything he's done but he has introduced some real innovations in
0:55:04 > 0:55:10local government. I first came across him 25 years ago...Has he
0:55:10 > 0:55:15still got as much energy?I think so, I saw him last year. Certainly
0:55:15 > 0:55:19what he's doing with the regeneration, he and I launched a
0:55:19 > 0:55:24big new Chinese investment in Newham borough last year and I personally
0:55:24 > 0:55:30think he's got the energy.Dawn, where do you stand on that and what
0:55:30 > 0:55:36about the idea of having fixed terms for council leaders?I do agree with
0:55:36 > 0:55:46Greg on the aspect of Labour in power delivers great things in local
0:55:46 > 0:55:53areas and also...But is 23 years too long?The thing is we have a
0:55:53 > 0:55:58selection process within the Labour Party, all parties have a way of
0:55:58 > 0:56:01selecting a candidate, then that candidate is put to the wider
0:56:01 > 0:56:09electorate to decide.The US president can serve two terms, good
0:56:09 > 0:56:14idea for council leaders?I think there was previously an idea that
0:56:14 > 0:56:19somebody elected should serve maybe two or three terms and then that the
0:56:19 > 0:56:23renewed, but it is in a way renewed when you have an affirmative
0:56:23 > 0:56:28nomination process.It doesn't say much for the calibre of local
0:56:28 > 0:56:34candidates, where is the fresh blood in the Newham Labour Party?I don't
0:56:34 > 0:56:39think that is the case. At the end of the day you select the best
0:56:39 > 0:56:43person for the job. Robin himself has said let's have an open
0:56:43 > 0:56:48selection and open it up. We just want to go out and fight so we can
0:56:48 > 0:56:53return a Labour mayor and continue to do good things.I wonder how many
0:56:53 > 0:56:57years he would think maybe I'm going to call it a day, but we will see
0:56:57 > 0:56:59what happens to him.
0:56:59 > 0:57:01Now May's local elections are looming with some Conservatives
0:57:01 > 0:57:04fearing they are facing a very difficult time at the polls.
0:57:04 > 0:57:09But just how bad could it get?
0:57:09 > 0:57:13Polling at the moment suggests the Conservatives are doing rather less
0:57:13 > 0:57:17well now than they were in the run-up to the 2014 collections on
0:57:17 > 0:57:23these contests were last fought and actually they did pretty badly in
0:57:23 > 0:57:26vote share then so if they do as badly as some of the polls have
0:57:26 > 0:57:30suggested, it is possible the Conservatives could be down to even
0:57:30 > 0:57:36as low as one council at the most, that's the worst that could happen,
0:57:36 > 0:57:41more likely to be five but you never know.Greg Hands, let's just assume
0:57:41 > 0:57:45you are going to tell me the Conservatives will be terribly well
0:57:45 > 0:57:50but the tide seems to be running out on you in London. What do you put
0:57:50 > 0:57:56that down to?That difficult general election last year but I'm seeing a
0:57:56 > 0:58:00lot of good new candidates and campaigns, we have had Labour
0:58:00 > 0:58:06councillors...He said you could go down to one council.I have been out
0:58:06 > 0:58:11and about with my council candidates in Kensington and Chelsea,
0:58:11 > 0:58:14Hammersmith and Fulham, a lot of enthusiasm and good, well-run
0:58:14 > 0:58:20Conservative councils.Are you saying it is all hunky-dory, no
0:58:20 > 0:58:25problem, because even a colleague of yours Stephen Hammond said Rayleigh
0:58:25 > 0:58:30alarm bells should be ringing about what's happening to the Conservative
0:58:30 > 0:58:35Party in London.It's a challenging environment but we have well-run
0:58:35 > 0:58:39Conservative councils that would be put at risk. And actually, what
0:58:39 > 0:58:44would happen if some of these left wing Momentum groups run these
0:58:44 > 0:58:49councils it would be a disaster for local residents.Do you take any
0:58:49 > 0:58:52responsibility for what appears to be happening to the Conservative
0:58:52 > 0:58:57Party in London?I think we all take a collective interest in the London
0:58:57 > 0:59:01Conservative Party but we are fighting hard, out there campaigning
0:59:01 > 0:59:09virtually every day of the week. We have lots of new blood.The problem
0:59:09 > 0:59:14you have, Brexit. London is an anti-Brexit city, the Tory party is
0:59:14 > 0:59:19appropriate to party, therein lies your problem.Jeremy Corbyn's
0:59:19 > 0:59:24leadership is in favour of leaving the customs union and single market,
0:59:24 > 0:59:30it is not clear the Labour Party represents Remain voters but the
0:59:30 > 0:59:34Conservative Party represents aspirational voters. We deliver high
0:59:34 > 0:59:38quality schools and housing, all of the things that matter to London are
0:59:38 > 0:59:44better delivered under a Conservative council.Dawn, one of
0:59:44 > 0:59:49the curiosities about the Jeremy Corbyn leadership is he has always
0:59:49 > 0:59:54been a Eurosceptic, and yet in London, one of the most pro-EU parts
0:59:54 > 1:00:01of the country, there is massive Labour support. Let me put it to
1:00:01 > 1:00:05you, because he's keeping his head down about the fact that at heart he
1:00:05 > 1:00:10is a Eurosceptic.Where the Labour Party has led in regards to the
1:00:10 > 1:00:13vote, the Conservative government has followed. We are the ones who
1:00:13 > 1:00:19have taken a sensible approach. Greg talks about delivering on housing,
1:00:19 > 1:00:25we have a serious housing crisis in London and it shows how out of touch
1:00:25 > 1:00:28the Conservative Party is in terms of what's going on in London. That
1:00:28 > 1:00:34is why we are fighting as a Labour Party for every single seat. We hope
1:00:34 > 1:00:42we will make gains in the local election.
1:00:43 > 1:00:48Is the party basically becoming a London party? The leaders are all
1:00:48 > 1:00:52Londoners will do the biggest growth in the bishop has been in London.
1:00:52 > 1:00:59Where else is the Labour Party in such a strong position?In terms of
1:00:59 > 1:01:06policy in what they would do, going back to housing, Labour London
1:01:06 > 1:01:10councils are not delivering on housing. Conservative councils are
1:01:10 > 1:01:15delivering on housing.
1:01:15 > 1:01:16delivering on housing. With high quality schools, Conservative
1:01:16 > 1:01:22boroughs are the delivering high quality schools.Schools in my
1:01:22 > 1:01:26constituency lost £1 million. Ceasefire. We are running out of
1:01:26 > 1:01:31time.
1:01:31 > 1:01:32That's all we have time for.
1:01:32 > 1:01:38My thanks to Dawn and to Greg and with that it's back to Sarah.
1:01:38 > 1:01:40Thank you very much, both.
1:01:51 > 1:01:55Welcome back. Our expert panel is still with us to talk through the
1:01:55 > 1:02:00week's events and what we expected, in the near future. One thing that
1:02:00 > 1:02:05made the news was a scuffle at a university in Bristol where Jacob
1:02:05 > 1:02:09Rees Mogg was interrupted by some protesters. Let's take a quick look
1:02:09 > 1:02:11before we talk about it.
1:02:28 > 1:02:32Jacob Rees Mogg, who always seems to be the centre of any story these
1:02:32 > 1:02:37days but Steve, are those unusual scenes at the University political
1:02:37 > 1:02:40meeting or is that happening around the country are not being caught on
1:02:40 > 1:02:45camera and therefore we do not know about it?It is not that unusual and
1:02:45 > 1:02:53it happens at times when politics is at the forefront. There is nothing
1:02:53 > 1:02:59exceptional about the highly charged atmosphere of politics and students
1:02:59 > 1:03:02have always chosen controversial speakers to go to university and get
1:03:02 > 1:03:07a hard time like that. Jacob Rees Mogg is brilliant at dealing with
1:03:07 > 1:03:11people like that. I have seen him at meetings where people have come in
1:03:11 > 1:03:18and he is fantastic. Very polite and courteous. That is the way of doing
1:03:18 > 1:03:22it. It is an absolute myth that something is happening and there is
1:03:22 > 1:03:27a lot going on in politics at the moment that is disturbing. People
1:03:27 > 1:03:32doing this is not justifiable and has always happened.The idea that
1:03:32 > 1:03:37someone would come to speak at the union and someone did not like their
1:03:37 > 1:03:42views and you would put on a balaclava and shout, fascist some at
1:03:42 > 1:03:48them, and think that was acceptable. That did not happen. I'd tell you
1:03:48 > 1:03:58what also did not happen, he was not condoned by the Shadow Chancellor.
1:03:58 > 1:04:04Not condone the behaviour in Bristol.Apart from the fact that
1:04:04 > 1:04:10John McDonnell, not Jeremy Corbyn, has repeatedly encouraged laughter
1:04:10 > 1:04:13from audiences, talking about a violent insurrection against
1:04:13 > 1:04:17politicians. He said he thinks no Tory MP should be able to speak
1:04:17 > 1:04:24publicly without having this sort of behaviour. Condoned by a mainstream
1:04:24 > 1:04:29party, effectively Deputy Leader.I think you meant condemns all
1:04:29 > 1:04:34violence.He says that he has not specifically condemned this. Correct
1:04:34 > 1:04:41me if I am wrong. He has not specifically condemned this.Brandon
1:04:41 > 1:04:45Lewis was trying to say these are elements of the hard left and trying
1:04:45 > 1:04:53to make this a bit of a party political movement. There is no
1:04:53 > 1:04:56evidence that they are associated with the Labour Party.There is a
1:04:56 > 1:05:02little bit of evidence. A lot of these infiltrators are members of
1:05:02 > 1:05:09Momentum and they consider it to Jeremy Corbyn. It is now an official
1:05:09 > 1:05:12Labour Party campaign group. Brandon Lewis is going to jump all over this
1:05:12 > 1:05:18to try to claim huge political capital in a bit of a naughty way.
1:05:18 > 1:05:22Labour frontbenchers are not encouraging their members. There is
1:05:22 > 1:05:28wider truth going on, which is politics is basically getting more
1:05:28 > 1:05:32ideological. The centre ground is weak and has a very poor voice. The
1:05:32 > 1:05:39louder are on the far left and the far right. That is why the centre
1:05:39 > 1:05:43ground have to speak up.There is only one party conference where your
1:05:43 > 1:05:52political editor needs security guards. There is only one another is
1:05:52 > 1:05:55the Labour Party confidence. When Brandon Lewis was here earlier and
1:05:55 > 1:05:59he said the Labour Party wants to stop intimidation in politics, it is
1:05:59 > 1:06:03arguable the public order act allows for that anyway from that nobody
1:06:03 > 1:06:06wants to see people putting themselves forward in public life
1:06:06 > 1:06:13being intimidated. Is this a way of getting political capital out of the
1:06:13 > 1:06:20situation?It is. I remember Keith Joseph, a real innocent right-winger
1:06:20 > 1:06:23going to universities and getting worse treatment than this. I am not
1:06:23 > 1:06:27justifying this treatment was it has always gone on amongst students.
1:06:27 > 1:06:33There is anger that it manifests itself in these stupid ways but has
1:06:33 > 1:06:42always gone on. He is trying to make political capital. Linked to
1:06:42 > 1:06:46Momentum, it is not clear. People are struggling in the media to make
1:06:46 > 1:06:49sense of it. It is different in different places and its influence
1:06:49 > 1:06:54is different in different places. He is trying to make political capital
1:06:54 > 1:06:59out of things that have always gone on.Jacob Rees Mogg is at the centre
1:06:59 > 1:07:04of every story this week. He is deeply critical of Treasury
1:07:04 > 1:07:07forecasts and having a go at the civil servants. He actually accused
1:07:07 > 1:07:10civil servants in the Treasury of fiddling the figures. It was a
1:07:10 > 1:07:17remarkable thing for a senior politician to say when they
1:07:17 > 1:07:19generally pride ourselves on the impartiality of the civil service in
1:07:19 > 1:07:24this country. A former head of the civil service, Gus O'Donnell, said
1:07:24 > 1:07:27this to say.
1:07:27 > 1:07:30We look at the evidence and we go where it is.
1:07:30 > 1:07:33Of course, if you are selling snake oil, you don't like the idea
1:07:33 > 1:07:34of experts testing your product.
1:07:34 > 1:07:36That's what we've got, this backlash of evidence among
1:07:36 > 1:07:42experts is because they know where the experts will go.
1:07:42 > 1:07:46Julia, that is him criticising Brexiteers who have been criticising
1:07:46 > 1:07:50Treasury figures.What do you make of it? What is that an ageing is we
1:07:50 > 1:07:56are forgetting why the Office for Budget Responsibility was set up. It
1:07:56 > 1:08:01was about the fact the Treasury and civil servants were politicising
1:08:01 > 1:08:04these budget predictions and all of these growth predictions and it
1:08:04 > 1:08:10would take the politics out of it and set up the OBR. Why it was
1:08:10 > 1:08:15accepted it was a good idea, we know the civil service, it is ingrained
1:08:15 > 1:08:19in them to be against change it has been ingrained since time in
1:08:19 > 1:08:24memorial. Everyone working for them says they have to work against the
1:08:24 > 1:08:29sluggish view of the civil service. Brexit is the biggest change their
1:08:29 > 1:08:35will take on. They go with the facts. The same civil servants from
1:08:35 > 1:08:40the Treasury are working on those predictions. It was politicised and
1:08:40 > 1:08:47utterly wrong. After the vote to leave, they predicted there would be
1:08:47 > 1:08:525000 job losses and a recession. The people who worked on and on this
1:08:52 > 1:08:55Treasury report, they are either completely politicised, in which
1:08:55 > 1:09:00case they should go, or they are really bad at their jobs, in which
1:09:00 > 1:09:05case they should go.It is quite astonishing to save the Treasury has
1:09:05 > 1:09:09its own political agenda.That is total bunkum. Civil servants have
1:09:09 > 1:09:14views. They are voters that they properly came into the civil service
1:09:14 > 1:09:19because they are
1:09:21 > 1:09:23because they are interested in politics. Civil servants will and
1:09:23 > 1:09:25have carried out brilliant bits of change was that they were behind the
1:09:25 > 1:09:28creation of the NHS and welfare reforms. Everything like that was
1:09:28 > 1:09:35done by civil servants. To think civil servants do things people
1:09:35 > 1:09:38disapprove of and an ideological perspective that Julia will not like
1:09:38 > 1:09:42is because they are not being given direction by ministers for the if
1:09:42 > 1:09:45ministers run civil servants properly they will get results that
1:09:45 > 1:09:54they want. Civil servants have had a woeful leadership from the
1:09:54 > 1:09:57Government about Brexit because the Government will not get off the
1:09:57 > 1:10:02fence.They may well have to this week. They have two meetings this
1:10:02 > 1:10:07week. Will we have any further clarity by the end of that what the
1:10:07 > 1:10:14Government wants the end state to be?It will be what it appears to be
1:10:14 > 1:10:19now, which is, you have your cake and eat its strategy. Theresa May
1:10:19 > 1:10:24will emerge from these two important meetings and will say that we want
1:10:24 > 1:10:28some kind of continued free trade relationship with Europe but we want
1:10:28 > 1:10:33to be free to make our own trade deals. B want a soft border with
1:10:33 > 1:10:37Ireland and so did be you and now we will go in and negotiate. It seems
1:10:37 > 1:10:46to me that is where the problem begins. -- the EU. She will
1:10:46 > 1:10:49begins. -- the EU. She will not a have your cake and eat it option.
1:10:49 > 1:10:54There are tensions about the relationship with the customs union.
1:10:54 > 1:10:57You mentioned her speech about an associate membership with the
1:10:57 > 1:11:02customs union.There has been a huge row about whether we are leaving the
1:11:02 > 1:11:05customs union but could be being our customs union question that she had
1:11:05 > 1:11:11said I want is to have a customs agreement. Why is this such a fault
1:11:11 > 1:11:20line within the party?It comes down to the absolute epicentre all now up
1:11:20 > 1:11:31of Brexit if there is such a thing. -- nub. A senior Cabinet minister,
1:11:31 > 1:11:42they said, the customs union is the fault line driving right through the
1:11:42 > 1:11:46Cabinet on Brexit. It always was and always will be full to the customs
1:11:46 > 1:11:50union is the one thing that will either stop the Brexiteers getting
1:11:50 > 1:11:54what they want out of Brexit, which is trade deals with the rest of the
1:11:54 > 1:11:59world. They remain as corrupt or soft Brexiteers with what they want,
1:11:59 > 1:12:05which is closer links with the EU. That is why there is such strong
1:12:05 > 1:12:09disagreement. There will be yet another fudge in Cabinet because it
1:12:09 > 1:12:14is too hard to make a binary decision. That will go to the EU.
1:12:14 > 1:12:20The EU will look at it and say, this is cake and eat it verge, decide.
1:12:20 > 1:12:26That is the key moment.It is extraordinary. -- fudge. It
1:12:26 > 1:12:34certainly should not be decided now that the idea they will decided in a
1:12:34 > 1:12:39four our debate is rather unlikely. Also if you end up with a situation
1:12:39 > 1:12:44which does not explain with much clarity, it will not stop the noises
1:12:44 > 1:12:51from the rest of the party, will it? That has been unstoppable for 30
1:12:51 > 1:12:55years. That will be the constant background hum. It is the fate of
1:12:55 > 1:13:01every Tory leader to try to navigate around that noise. Of course, Europe
1:13:01 > 1:13:06has brought down the last three Tory Prime Minister. Although earlier I
1:13:06 > 1:13:11cautious about saying whether she would fall over the next few months,
1:13:11 > 1:13:17Europe is the thing that torment is Tory leaders.The alternative, could
1:13:17 > 1:13:22a non-Brexiteer come through and become Tory leader and then Prime
1:13:22 > 1:13:25Minister have another election? Jeremy Corbyn is in favour of
1:13:25 > 1:13:26Brexit.
1:13:26 > 1:13:27That's all for today.
1:13:27 > 1:13:30Join me again next Sunday at 11 here on BBC One.
1:13:30 > 1:13:33Until then, bye-bye.