11/02/2018

0:00:39 > 0:00:41Morning, everyone, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

0:00:41 > 0:00:42I'm Sarah Smith.

0:00:42 > 0:00:45And this is the programme that will provide your essential briefing

0:00:45 > 0:00:47on everything that's moving and shaking in the

0:00:47 > 0:00:48world of politics.

0:00:48 > 0:00:50After all the waiting we're finally going to hear

0:00:50 > 0:00:54the Prime Minister's vision for Britain's future relationship

0:00:54 > 0:00:56with the European Union, but not for another couple of weeks.

0:00:56 > 0:01:00We'll look at what she might say.

0:01:00 > 0:01:03Key to any agreement will be whether we should bind our customs'

0:01:03 > 0:01:05arrangements closely to the EU, or strike out on our own.

0:01:05 > 0:01:08We'll speak to leading figures from both sides of the argument.

0:01:08 > 0:01:12And Labour argue public ownership of services

0:01:12 > 0:01:15like the railways are an "economic necessity".

0:01:15 > 0:01:17We'll look at how the policy could work

0:01:17 > 0:01:19and whether it's on the right track.

0:01:19 > 0:01:21In London, with local elections looming, can Labour wrest back

0:01:21 > 0:01:23control from the Conservatives in Wandsworth after 40

0:01:23 > 0:01:31years in opposition?

0:01:34 > 0:01:36Who needs the Winter Olympics when there's plenty

0:01:36 > 0:01:38of thrills, spills and potential wipeouts in the world

0:01:38 > 0:01:42of Westminster.

0:01:42 > 0:01:46And with me today are three experts who may very well go off piste:

0:01:46 > 0:01:48Tom Newton Dunn from the Sun, the Guardian's Zoe Williams

0:01:48 > 0:01:49and Iain Martin from the Times.

0:01:49 > 0:01:52So we hear that Theresa May will finally be giving her

0:01:52 > 0:01:54vision of a Brexit deal in the next few weeks.

0:01:54 > 0:01:57The news follows Mrs May hosting two Brexit cabinet meetings this week

0:01:57 > 0:01:59in an attempt to thrash out the government's

0:01:59 > 0:02:00negotiating position.

0:02:00 > 0:02:03If reports are to be believed not much was decided,

0:02:03 > 0:02:06and so there will now have to be a team building session

0:02:06 > 0:02:07at the prime minister's country residence Chequers.

0:02:07 > 0:02:10Maybe a few trust exercises will be in order.

0:02:10 > 0:02:14At the moment however we're none the wiser and the EU's Chief

0:02:14 > 0:02:19Negotiator Michel Barnier seems less than impressed.

0:02:19 > 0:02:21To start the week the EU chief negotiator, Michel Barnier,

0:02:21 > 0:02:26made a trip to Downing Street with Brexit secretary David Davis.

0:02:26 > 0:02:29Pleasantries with the PM, but the warning was clear.

0:02:29 > 0:02:36Time has come to make choice.

0:02:36 > 0:02:38All week the question was, are the Cabinet running

0:02:38 > 0:02:43away from making tough decisions on Brexit?

0:02:43 > 0:02:47As America woke up, the President took a pop at the

0:02:47 > 0:02:49National Health Service on Twitter.

0:02:49 > 0:02:51But was it all fake news?

0:02:51 > 0:02:56The Health Secretary hit back.

0:02:56 > 0:02:59The Transport Secretary, Chris Grayling, told the Commons

0:02:59 > 0:03:01that yet again the East Coast mainline franchise had failed,

0:03:01 > 0:03:05with renationalisation an option.

0:03:05 > 0:03:07While tensions in the Conservative Party on Brexit

0:03:07 > 0:03:15were on full display.

0:03:17 > 0:03:19One leading Tory Remainer did not hold back.

0:03:19 > 0:03:2135 hard ideological Brexiteers who are not Tories.

0:03:21 > 0:03:25It's about time Theresa May stood up to them and slung them out.

0:03:25 > 0:03:28On Tuesday, deeds and words, MPs celebrated 100 years since

0:03:28 > 0:03:32some women were given the vote.

0:03:32 > 0:03:37Westminster awash with suffragette colours purple, green, and white.

0:03:37 > 0:03:39Wednesday and Thursday, the Brexit War Cabinet settled

0:03:39 > 0:03:42in for crunch talks.

0:03:42 > 0:03:44They were meant to decide what the end state should look like.

0:03:44 > 0:03:45Breakthrough?

0:03:45 > 0:03:47Not yet.

0:03:47 > 0:03:50Also on Thursday, a leaked EU paper warned that the UK's single market

0:03:50 > 0:03:53access in the Brexit transition period could be revoked

0:03:53 > 0:03:56in the event of a dispute.

0:03:56 > 0:03:57Discourteous?

0:03:57 > 0:03:59The Brexit secretary thought so.

0:03:59 > 0:04:01It's not in good faith.

0:04:01 > 0:04:04We think it's unwise to publish that.

0:04:04 > 0:04:06The week ended as it began, with more warnings

0:04:06 > 0:04:08from Michel Barnier on Ireland, the customs union,

0:04:08 > 0:04:11and continuing EU UK disputes.

0:04:11 > 0:04:19If this disagreement persists, the transition is not a given.

0:04:19 > 0:04:22So, at the end of a busy week why not let off steam with a glass

0:04:22 > 0:04:25or two of Brexit juice, that's English sparkling wine

0:04:25 > 0:04:27to you and me, at the annual Conservative fundraiser the black

0:04:27 > 0:04:30and white ball.

0:04:30 > 0:04:32The highest bid of the night?

0:04:32 > 0:04:40£55,000 to spend a day with the PM.

0:04:43 > 0:04:47We could not afford to get her on to this programme but we will talk to

0:04:47 > 0:04:51our panel of experts to find out what is going on behind the

0:04:51 > 0:04:56headlines. Iain Martin, by now we thought we would know more about the

0:04:56 > 0:05:00government's final negotiating position. We had two Brexit

0:05:00 > 0:05:05subcommittee meetings this week. They were meant to come to a

0:05:05 > 0:05:10conclusion I thought. Are we any further forward?No. It is possible

0:05:10 > 0:05:15this is a cunning baldric style plan to make Britain look as confused as

0:05:15 > 0:05:23possible.A very, very cunning plan. Very cunning. But the chances of

0:05:23 > 0:05:27that are highly unlikely. It seems the meeting has happened, there was

0:05:27 > 0:05:30discussion, the Prime Minister did not express an opinion. The Prime

0:05:30 > 0:05:35Minister was more interested in secrecy and in fear of a leak, but

0:05:35 > 0:05:40it seems there was not much to leak anyway, because there was not a

0:05:40 > 0:05:48decision. Actually, the UK's closer to a position than people commonly

0:05:48 > 0:05:53understand, definitely out of the single market, but on this crucial

0:05:53 > 0:05:58question of the customs union, or a customs agreement after, there is

0:05:58 > 0:06:03still no decision taken. I think the feeling at Westminster, people on

0:06:03 > 0:06:08both sides of the argument seems to be will someone decide, make the

0:06:08 > 0:06:12case and then get stuck into the talks which lets remember our

0:06:12 > 0:06:17supposed to begin in six or seven weeks' time.This Brexit

0:06:17 > 0:06:21subcommittee is split between Brexiteers and Remainers. The Prime

0:06:21 > 0:06:25Minister sits in the middle we understand not really expressing a

0:06:25 > 0:06:29view, that is put together for careful political reasons but it

0:06:29 > 0:06:34cannot continue, can it?I think the presentation at the minute cannot

0:06:34 > 0:06:40come to a decision because they have not done their homework, student

0:06:40 > 0:06:44essay style crisis conclusion and in the case of David Davis you could

0:06:44 > 0:06:50believe that is true but the main reason they cannot come together is

0:06:50 > 0:06:54because of an implacable deadlock. There is no compromise between in

0:06:54 > 0:06:58the customs union or not in the customs union. One side has to

0:06:58 > 0:07:04vanquish the other. The Remainers really have to think it would be

0:07:04 > 0:07:07economic suicide to leave the customs union but they are also

0:07:07 > 0:07:14really aware that this deadlock is grinding government to halt. It is

0:07:14 > 0:07:17national duty pulling them in two directions. They will ultimately be

0:07:17 > 0:07:23the ones to say I do not want to cut the baby in half, you have the baby.

0:07:23 > 0:07:26At some point it will have to go to the country because it is a stupid

0:07:26 > 0:07:32idea to cut a baby in half expect what will happen for the Prime

0:07:32 > 0:07:36Minister who will have to make a decision for the kind Brexit she has

0:07:36 > 0:07:42advocated?She will do that and the danger is huge. She will have to get

0:07:42 > 0:07:46off the perch at some point. We have been sitting in these chairs for 20

0:07:46 > 0:07:50months saying the Prime Minister has to choose between prioritising

0:07:50 > 0:07:54market access and prioritise and sovereignty. That is the simple

0:07:54 > 0:07:57case. You may get a bit of both out of the EU but you will get more of

0:07:57 > 0:08:03one than the other. I think interestingly, there is a lot of

0:08:03 > 0:08:06movement going on under the surface which Number Ten are desperate not

0:08:06 > 0:08:11to show any of the machinations of it because they want to present a

0:08:11 > 0:08:15complete finished article. There is some sense of consensus growing in

0:08:15 > 0:08:22the Brexit community I am told, not to sign off on a customs union but

0:08:22 > 0:08:27to sign off on a semi-single market alignment, soap aligning with all

0:08:27 > 0:08:31the single market rules on manufactured goods is what I am told

0:08:31 > 0:08:35they are beginning to agree to do, which they feel they should do

0:08:35 > 0:08:38because British companies will go ahead and stand by all the EU

0:08:38 > 0:08:44regulations because that is what they want to continue to sell into

0:08:44 > 0:08:47the EU. There are some members of the committee who are opposed to

0:08:47 > 0:08:52this. Boris Johnson is the main one. If they do agree to allow heavily on

0:08:52 > 0:08:55manufactured goods but not on services, in other words they choose

0:08:55 > 0:09:03what to Jerry picked and can agree what to cherish pick -- cherry pick,

0:09:03 > 0:09:06but if they choose what to align on Ben Boris Johnson has do make a

0:09:06 > 0:09:13decision himself.

0:09:13 > 0:09:16decision himself. We could potentially see some Cabinet

0:09:16 > 0:09:19resignations and I put Boris Johnson at the head of it in two or three

0:09:19 > 0:09:27weeks' time. That is the root of the potential compromise.On services,

0:09:27 > 0:09:34on financial services, there is not a functioning single market. The

0:09:34 > 0:09:39question comes down to manufactured goods. A lot of the regulations have

0:09:39 > 0:09:43their origins in global standards, something like the car industry. Is

0:09:43 > 0:09:48Boris Johnson going to find himself in a position where he will die in a

0:09:48 > 0:09:53ditch over trying to make the UK diverged from globally set standards

0:09:53 > 0:09:58on carburettors? It would be an interesting position if he does.It

0:09:58 > 0:10:04sounds ridiculous but it also sounds like the sort of thing he will do.

0:10:04 > 0:10:08We will come back to this later in the programme.

0:10:08 > 0:10:11As it's still not clear what the government wants its final

0:10:11 > 0:10:13relationship with the EU will look like, we thought we'd

0:10:13 > 0:10:16try to help out by looking in detail at the key dilemma,

0:10:16 > 0:10:18when it comes to working out a customs arrangement,

0:10:18 > 0:10:21should we hug the EU close, or break out on our own?

0:10:21 > 0:10:24We've lined up two politicians from either side of the argument

0:10:24 > 0:10:26and, just for a change, they'll be asking

0:10:26 > 0:10:27the questions not me.

0:10:27 > 0:10:30So I'm joined by the soon to be former Conservative MEP and leading

0:10:30 > 0:10:33figure in the Leave campaign Daniel Hannan and by the former

0:10:33 > 0:10:35Labour frontbencher and supporter of Open Britain Seema Malhotra.

0:10:35 > 0:10:38Earlier this morning we tossed a coin to see who would go first.

0:10:38 > 0:10:42Daniel Hannan won and he agreed that he would go first.

0:10:42 > 0:10:43So here with thoughts on what our end

0:10:43 > 0:10:49relationship should be.

0:10:49 > 0:10:5390% of the world's economic growth over the next 15 years will come

0:10:53 > 0:10:57from outside the European Union. Britain is a maritime nation, linked

0:10:57 > 0:11:01to the world's fastest-growing economies by language, law, culture

0:11:01 > 0:11:06and kinship. But we cannot sign trade deals, not while we are in the

0:11:06 > 0:11:10EU's customs union. Staying in the customs union after we leave, would

0:11:10 > 0:11:16be the worst of all worlds. It would give Brussels 100% of our trade

0:11:16 > 0:11:22policy with 0% input from us. In order to take advantage of Brexit,

0:11:22 > 0:11:27we need to set our own regulations. Sometimes, for reasons of economies

0:11:27 > 0:11:31of scale, we might want to match what the EU is doing. If we do want

0:11:31 > 0:11:35to keep elements of the single market, it must be through agreement

0:11:35 > 0:11:41and on a case-by-case basis. In 1980, the states now in the European

0:11:41 > 0:11:47Union counted for 30% of the world's GDP. Today that figure is 15% and

0:11:47 > 0:11:54falling. Britain needs to raise its size. Our future bright, our future

0:11:54 > 0:11:55is global.

0:11:55 > 0:11:57Well, Seema and Dan are with me now.

0:11:57 > 0:12:04And just to explain the rules.

0:12:04 > 0:12:09Seema Malhotra has five minutes to interrogate down.This week a Tory

0:12:09 > 0:12:13MP said I think the real concern about the direction of travel when

0:12:13 > 0:12:18it comes to Brexit, we are to real crunch point and the government has

0:12:18 > 0:12:23not worked out 19 months on what the endgame is and we need to know. That

0:12:23 > 0:12:29is pretty clear, isn't it? You and others said Brexit will be easy so

0:12:29 > 0:12:36why is this the case?Nothing worthwhile is ever easy. I do not

0:12:36 > 0:12:42accept that the government has not made it position clear. It made it

0:12:42 > 0:12:46clear in Lancaster House beach and a series of white papers since. As

0:12:46 > 0:12:50Theresa May says we want to keep control of our laws, taxes and

0:12:50 > 0:12:54borders. But within that, we want to have the closest possible

0:12:54 > 0:12:57relationship with the rest of the EU, compatible with being a

0:12:57 > 0:13:04sovereign country. We want to be its best friend and ally. We will align

0:13:04 > 0:13:08with other countries but on our own terms.Things are not going

0:13:08 > 0:13:13according to plan. You and others said we will be keeping key

0:13:13 > 0:13:17agencies. David Davis said we would keep the agencies but now they are

0:13:17 > 0:13:22leaving. The European medicines agency is heading for Amsterdam, the

0:13:22 > 0:13:26European banking agency will go to Paris. That is 2000 highly skilled

0:13:26 > 0:13:32jobs being lost from the capital. Isn't this a high price we are

0:13:32 > 0:13:41paying for certainty?If you're that fixated on Eurocrats jobs then you

0:13:41 > 0:13:46there is something wrong with your priorities. All of the worries we

0:13:46 > 0:13:49had about job losses turned out to be nonsense. Instead of losing half

0:13:49 > 0:13:53a million, we have gained half a million. More people are working

0:13:53 > 0:13:58than ever before. I never claimed we would be keeping these Euro agencies

0:13:58 > 0:14:02in the UK. Of course if you leave the EU you leave these Euro agencies

0:14:02 > 0:14:09and you no longer have them on our soil. We will make our own

0:14:09 > 0:14:13regulations.You are calling these agencies Eurocrats, these are people

0:14:13 > 0:14:19helping with key sectors of our economy, scientists, those who are

0:14:19 > 0:14:22experts in finance and other sectors. I agree that Britain could

0:14:22 > 0:14:26trade more with the world and we need to, but evidence of leaks from

0:14:26 > 0:14:31the government this week shows that the impact of free trade deals

0:14:31 > 0:14:34around the world will no way compensate for the loss of trade

0:14:34 > 0:14:39with the EU which a hard Brexit would do for the UK. If you don't

0:14:39 > 0:14:43believe me, you can listen to the words of the Prime Minister who said

0:14:43 > 0:14:47during the referendum we export more to Ireland than we do to China,

0:14:47 > 0:14:53twice as much to Belgium as we do to India, it is not realistic to think

0:14:53 > 0:14:57we could replace European trade than these markets.We export more to

0:14:57 > 0:15:02Ireland than China, that is our problem! Which is the better

0:15:02 > 0:15:05long-term growth prospects?Don't you agree that there will be an

0:15:05 > 0:15:08impact on British businesses and families even in the short term and

0:15:08 > 0:15:12isn't it right that you raise that risk with the British people?

0:15:12 > 0:15:15Obviously we want free and frictionless trade with the EU and

0:15:15 > 0:15:23the freedom to my trade deals further of broad. EU does not have a

0:15:23 > 0:15:31trade deal with US, with India and old friends like Australia, the idea

0:15:31 > 0:15:36that we cannot do trade deals and bring benefits to this country I

0:15:36 > 0:15:39think is incredibly defeatist. Are we really saying it is a good idea

0:15:39 > 0:15:43to sell more to Ireland with five mil in people than to China with

0:15:43 > 0:15:50more than a billion. -- 5 million people.Their study after study

0:15:50 > 0:15:54which shows the proximity we have two nations goes a long way to

0:15:54 > 0:15:57determining our economic links, that is not just the case for us but for

0:15:57 > 0:16:05countries around the world. Of course we can do more. We have a

0:16:05 > 0:16:10trade surplus with the US already. I have spoken to investors from other

0:16:10 > 0:16:13countries who say they want to come and do more in the UK but the point

0:16:13 > 0:16:17is, part of the reason they do that is because we have access and they

0:16:17 > 0:16:21have access to the European markets of 500 million people to sell those

0:16:21 > 0:16:26goods as well. What do you say to the genuine concerns from Nissan and

0:16:26 > 0:16:30Honda, now even the Japanese ambassador talking about a challenge

0:16:30 > 0:16:33to the profitability of those companies in the UK, and the threat

0:16:33 > 0:16:38they may have to leave those operations and go elsewhere?They

0:16:38 > 0:16:41made those threats during the referendum and after the vote was in

0:16:41 > 0:16:46they confirmed that not only were they staying here but Nissan was

0:16:46 > 0:16:49increasing its productivity and activity in the UK. I think you

0:16:49 > 0:16:51should look at what they are doing rather than what they are saying.

0:16:51 > 0:16:56This idea that we are defined by our geography is an old-fashioned

0:16:56 > 0:16:5918th-century way of looking at trade. In the modern age where we

0:16:59 > 0:17:04have low freight costs, the Internet and cheap flights, geographical

0:17:04 > 0:17:10proximity has never mattered less. We are linked by language, law,

0:17:10 > 0:17:12cultural, legal systems and accountancy systems to the fastest

0:17:12 > 0:17:19growing con is the planet.

0:17:19 > 0:17:23I would like to ask you, you have set all your vision for how you

0:17:23 > 0:17:26would like to see our future relationship with the EU. How

0:17:26 > 0:17:30confident are you the Prime Minister will outline a clear vision soon and

0:17:30 > 0:17:34it will outline with Ewels?She's outlined the broad principles

0:17:34 > 0:17:39already. -- with yours. Fleshing out issues like how to make the Irish

0:17:39 > 0:17:43border were, how to make the facilitation of customs work. This

0:17:43 > 0:17:47thing nobody has explained what we can do in terms of customs is not

0:17:47 > 0:17:50true. The government produced a lengthy paper talking about how we

0:17:50 > 0:17:59can do things like expand the ... It's worth noting that both ahead of

0:17:59 > 0:18:02HMR see here and his equivalent in the Republic of Ireland have said

0:18:02 > 0:18:06there is no need for a Customs border, that companies can make

0:18:06 > 0:18:11their customs declarations in the way they make their tax

0:18:11 > 0:18:13declarations. They are now emphatically not choosing to listen

0:18:13 > 0:18:16to the experts when they say they don't need a hard order in Ireland.

0:18:16 > 0:18:21Thanks.

0:18:21 > 0:18:23Now it's the turn of Seema to be grilled but first,

0:18:23 > 0:18:25here's her thoughts on how our future relationship

0:18:25 > 0:18:27with the EU should look.

0:18:27 > 0:18:31I respect the result of the referendum. We need to move forward

0:18:31 > 0:18:37to find a deal that protects jobs in the economy. 43% of all of our trade

0:18:37 > 0:18:43is done with the EU. Staying inside the customs union gives us tariff

0:18:43 > 0:18:47free trade access to our many new partners. Issues surrounding

0:18:47 > 0:18:50immigration and sovereignty can be addressed while staying in the

0:18:50 > 0:18:54customs union and the single market. But on terms that we negotiate. We

0:18:54 > 0:19:00can also then trade freely with countries the EU has deals with.

0:19:00 > 0:19:05Deals that we have helped negotiate. And staying in the customs union is

0:19:05 > 0:19:09key to a solution on Ireland. Our select committee found that it is

0:19:09 > 0:19:14unclear how we can avoid a hardboard if we leave the customs union. I

0:19:14 > 0:19:18agree we need reform and greater controls on the freedom of movement,

0:19:18 > 0:19:22but people did not vote to become poorer. Let's leave the European

0:19:22 > 0:19:25Union in a way that puts the prosperity of families and

0:19:25 > 0:19:28businesses first.

0:19:28 > 0:19:30So as before you have five minutes to give a grilling.

0:19:30 > 0:19:31Off you go.

0:19:31 > 0:19:37Two weeks ago Jeremy Corbyn says said he was against staying in the

0:19:37 > 0:19:41customs union because it is protectionist against developing

0:19:41 > 0:19:44countries, do you agree?It's important to balance what we do need

0:19:44 > 0:19:48to see change in terms of international trade and support for

0:19:48 > 0:19:51developing countries. But also to recognise the contribution that

0:19:51 > 0:19:54being in the customs union and the European Union has made for our

0:19:54 > 0:20:00prosperity...Do you agree with Jeremy Corbyn?I think that a lot

0:20:00 > 0:20:03has been done to support development, International

0:20:03 > 0:20:06development...Forgive me, that's a different question... We're not

0:20:06 > 0:20:11talking about that, do you agree that the customs union is

0:20:11 > 0:20:14protectionist against developing countries?It can be for those

0:20:14 > 0:20:21countries that are in the customs union. That's very understood

0:20:21 > 0:20:26economics. It encourages trade creation and development between

0:20:26 > 0:20:31those countries, but it doesn't preclude, as has been shown by the

0:20:31 > 0:20:34over 60 trade agreements we have is a European Union with countries

0:20:34 > 0:20:37around the rolled, from having strong relationships with other

0:20:37 > 0:20:41countries. That's what I believe. -- countries around the world.There

0:20:41 > 0:20:46are lots of things we do not produce ourselves. We have to impose tariffs

0:20:46 > 0:20:51on oranges. In yours and my constituencies there are not orange

0:20:51 > 0:20:55plantations. Is it a reasonable thing that to protect Mediterranean

0:20:55 > 0:20:59orange growers we should be discriminating against producers in

0:20:59 > 0:21:03Africa, the Americas, developing countries, at a cost our own

0:21:03 > 0:21:08consumers?I believe what you can do is negotiate across the world in

0:21:08 > 0:21:11terms of how you encourage greater free trade and greater ways in which

0:21:11 > 0:21:16we can trade with different nations. That's what we do also already. We

0:21:16 > 0:21:21had no Norma 's track record in investing in farmers in Africa...On

0:21:21 > 0:21:26that point... -- we have had an enormous track record. That means we

0:21:26 > 0:21:29are giving Brussels total control of our trade policies but we are no

0:21:29 > 0:21:34longer EU members so we have no control.Almost 50% of our trade is

0:21:34 > 0:21:42with the EU. Over 70% of the companies... Over 70% of companies

0:21:42 > 0:21:46that export to the EU, that is jobs your constituents and my

0:21:46 > 0:21:50constituents will be dependent on, over 90% of that being small and

0:21:50 > 0:21:54medium-size enterprises. They look...I'm not having much joy

0:21:54 > 0:21:58getting answers to my questions. You are going off on a tangent. Let me

0:21:58 > 0:22:02have another go.I'm saying we can do both and that is what we should

0:22:02 > 0:22:07be doing.You think leaving the EU but staying in the customs union so

0:22:07 > 0:22:13Brussels controls 100% of our

0:22:14 > 0:22:16Brussels controls 100% of our trade but we have zero input... You think

0:22:16 > 0:22:18that gives us more influence in world trade than taking our own

0:22:18 > 0:22:21voice and vote in the world trade organisation and be able to do our

0:22:21 > 0:22:25own deals, is that what you are saying?When you talk about the WTO

0:22:25 > 0:22:29rules, if you look at the government's analysis which was an

0:22:29 > 0:22:34average of other studies, it shows even in the South East if there is a

0:22:34 > 0:22:37withdrawal based on...I'm going to have one more go to get an answer

0:22:37 > 0:22:39because you are telling me lots of interesting things which are nothing

0:22:39 > 0:22:44to do with what I'm asking. Let me have another go... The highest

0:22:44 > 0:22:51tariffs imposed by the customs union are on the items that most

0:22:51 > 0:22:55negatively impact people on low incomes, particularly food,

0:22:55 > 0:22:59clothing, and footwear. They pay a proportionately higher chunk of

0:22:59 > 0:23:01their weekly Budget on these commodities, these basic things.

0:23:01 > 0:23:05They are the most badly hit. We are clobbering poor people in this

0:23:05 > 0:23:09country in order to hurt developing nations. How can you come as a

0:23:09 > 0:23:13progressive politician with a proud history of standing up for people

0:23:13 > 0:23:17who are underprivileged, now stand there and defend a system that

0:23:17 > 0:23:21forces us to give more to wealthy French farmers than poor African

0:23:21 > 0:23:24farmers, and forces the highest bills to be paid by the lowest

0:23:24 > 0:23:28income people in Britain?I will fundamentally disagree with you. I

0:23:28 > 0:23:33believe being a member of the EU has been fundamental for our prosperity,

0:23:33 > 0:23:37for families and businesses. What you fail to highlight is numerous

0:23:37 > 0:23:43studies that show many British families are worse off as a result

0:23:43 > 0:23:46of us having had the referendum and now the uncertainty that is

0:23:46 > 0:23:55followed. People have already suffered. -- that has followed.You

0:23:55 > 0:24:00are still not answering. Let me have another crack at this. The countries

0:24:00 > 0:24:03closest to the EU economically. The countries that have opted to

0:24:03 > 0:24:08parallel or join the single market Norway, Switzerland, Iceland,

0:24:08 > 0:24:12Liechtenstein, none of them is interested in joining the customs

0:24:12 > 0:24:16union. Why do you think that is? They have separate arrangements.

0:24:16 > 0:24:19They have arrangements with each other. They have ways of resolving

0:24:19 > 0:24:23disputes. It is like a mini European Union in the way that they work

0:24:23 > 0:24:30together. I believe that we could consider approaching those countries

0:24:30 > 0:24:32to see whether that would be an arrangement that could work for

0:24:32 > 0:24:38Britain.That would mean leaving the customs union, right?Potentially

0:24:38 > 0:24:42alongside how we negotiate being in the customs union. Fundamental for

0:24:42 > 0:24:44peace in Northern Ireland and the Good Friday Agreement. It's not just

0:24:44 > 0:24:49me saying that, it's the Irish government, the head of the Irish

0:24:49 > 0:24:54police, and the Irish people.Time is up. Thank you for your questions.

0:24:54 > 0:24:57What you are advocating is not Labour policy. Do you believe you

0:24:57 > 0:25:03will change the mind of Jeremy Corbyn?You know there is a debate

0:25:03 > 0:25:10going on in the Labour Party. That is not unexpected, because as the

0:25:10 > 0:25:13situation changes, as new facts come to light, as we have to consider

0:25:13 > 0:25:18what life will be like with the end state post the transition, we will

0:25:18 > 0:25:22have that debate. It is certainly the case that the range of views

0:25:22 > 0:25:25across the Labour Party are far less in terms of the spectrum of what's

0:25:25 > 0:25:30going on in the Conservative Party. The fundamental issue is we have a

0:25:30 > 0:25:34Prime Minister and cabinet that have no idea about end state. They have

0:25:34 > 0:25:38failed to reach any sort of agreement after two days away this

0:25:38 > 0:25:43week. And I think it is embarrassing for us as a nation that 19 months

0:25:43 > 0:25:47after the referendum we are in such disarray.Thank you both very much

0:25:47 > 0:25:49for coming in and asking the questions.

0:25:49 > 0:25:52And those of you in the South of England will be lucky

0:25:52 > 0:25:56enough to see more of Dan Hannan as he'll be appearing

0:25:56 > 0:25:57in the Sunday Politics South in just over ten minutes.

0:25:57 > 0:25:59And you can find more Brexit analysis

0:25:59 > 0:26:01and explanation on the BBC website, at bbc.co.uk/Brexit.

0:26:01 > 0:26:03The recent collapse of Carillion and the ending

0:26:03 > 0:26:06of the East Coast Rail franchise early has emboldened the

0:26:06 > 0:26:08Labour Party to push its agenda for renationalising key services

0:26:08 > 0:26:10such as rail, water and energy.

0:26:10 > 0:26:12But that's not all, the party is looking into supporting local

0:26:12 > 0:26:14economies by helping councils do things like bringing

0:26:14 > 0:26:17more services in house, using local small businesses

0:26:17 > 0:26:23where possible and helping to set up new small scale energy companies.

0:26:23 > 0:26:25So, is the plan workable, and can it help Labour shed

0:26:25 > 0:26:28the image that more state control will lead to inefficiency and a lack

0:26:28 > 0:26:30of innovation and investment?

0:26:30 > 0:26:31Elizabeth Glinka has travelled to Preston,

0:26:31 > 0:26:33a Labour council the party are championing as a model

0:26:33 > 0:26:41for the future, to find out more.

0:26:48 > 0:26:53When he visited in the 1850s car Marks said industrial Preston might

0:26:53 > 0:26:57be the staging post for an economic revolution. It's taken 160 years but

0:26:57 > 0:27:05he may have been onto. -- Karl Marx said.Preston described in the press

0:27:05 > 0:27:11as a pilgrimage for London folk. LAUGHTER

0:27:11 > 0:27:15The Shadow Chancellor just dropping in this week to heap praise on

0:27:15 > 0:27:21Preston's new locally focused economic plan. Nowhere is that plan

0:27:21 > 0:27:26more visible than at the city's trendy undercover market. Traders

0:27:26 > 0:27:31rush to finish their new stalls ahead of next week's reopening. The

0:27:31 > 0:27:35so-called Preston model borrows heavily from similar schemes in the

0:27:35 > 0:27:40American rust belt. It installs the virtues of keeping more services

0:27:40 > 0:27:43in-house using worker let cooperatives. And when it comes to

0:27:43 > 0:27:49big contracts like the redevelopment of this beautiful Victorian market,

0:27:49 > 0:27:53they go not to the overextended big boys like a religion but to smaller,

0:27:53 > 0:28:01local firms, keeping the money in the area. -- like Carillion but to

0:28:01 > 0:28:06smaller, local firms. Matt Brown, a local boy motivated by what he saw

0:28:06 > 0:28:10as the continued decline of a once great city, is behind this.We came

0:28:10 > 0:28:14to the conclusion that a fightback we've got to do it ourselves. We

0:28:14 > 0:28:17cannot be dependent on central government that is cutting back on

0:28:17 > 0:28:23money. The public sector is pretty much buying locally from local

0:28:23 > 0:28:27suppliers. We are looking to form cooperatives. We're selling our own

0:28:27 > 0:28:31energy in partnership with other councils. Pensions are invested

0:28:31 > 0:28:36locally. These alternatives around the world. In American cities like

0:28:36 > 0:28:39York, Cleveland, and Barcelona, people are waking up to the fact

0:28:39 > 0:28:43that we have an economy that works for the top 1%. -- like New York and

0:28:43 > 0:28:49Cleveland. And the rest of us are basically fighting for the scraps.

0:28:49 > 0:28:53Under the model the council has spent an additional £4 million

0:28:53 > 0:28:58locally since 2012. It has also persuaded universities and hospitals

0:28:58 > 0:29:03to redirect their spending towards local suppliers. And it isn't just

0:29:03 > 0:29:05Preston, a number of other Labour authorities are trying something

0:29:05 > 0:29:11new.We have local councils now that have set up energy companies to

0:29:11 > 0:29:15provide cheaper, renewable energy foot we have others running bus

0:29:15 > 0:29:22networks. -- cheaper, renewable energy and we have others running

0:29:22 > 0:29:26bus networks. It is a way of getting best value for money as well as

0:29:26 > 0:29:31Democratic controlled of services. Your critics might say this is

0:29:31 > 0:29:36cuddly, cooperative windowdressing for an agenda which, long-term, is

0:29:36 > 0:29:40about mass renationalisation, which you think the public would not be

0:29:40 > 0:29:42keen on. CHUCKLES

0:29:42 > 0:29:46How sceptical people can be. I am a socialist. We should share our

0:29:46 > 0:29:50wealth. We have councillors going out to get elected. When they get

0:29:50 > 0:29:54elected they say they will use our council resources locally and in

0:29:54 > 0:29:59that way we can benefit local people.Is it back to the future? It

0:29:59 > 0:30:03was revealed this week the government may be on the brink of

0:30:03 > 0:30:07renationalising the East Coast mainline. Labour's frontbencher has

0:30:07 > 0:30:11been clear about its aspiration to renationalise not just a rail but

0:30:11 > 0:30:16energy, the Post Office, and even water. This weekend the party held a

0:30:16 > 0:30:19conference to discuss the expansion of the Preston model, but others

0:30:19 > 0:30:25remain less convinced by its wisdom. This idea is very popular nowadays,

0:30:25 > 0:30:28both on the political right, people like Trump promoting it, and on the

0:30:28 > 0:30:34political left. But it is a failure to understand the benefits of trade.

0:30:34 > 0:30:39The idea you can enrich yourself with the border. I draw a line

0:30:39 > 0:30:43around an area. And somehow that will make us better off is magical

0:30:43 > 0:30:47thinking. How you become better off is through becoming more productive.

0:30:47 > 0:30:53These ideas are tricks for becoming richer that involve boundaries. It

0:30:53 > 0:30:59is an abiding fantasy, but it is a fantasy.The doubters may doubt, but

0:30:59 > 0:31:03in a post-Carillion world labour is convinced public opinion is pulling

0:31:03 > 0:31:06in its direction.

0:31:06 > 0:31:08Well, to help me to understand more about Labour's

0:31:08 > 0:31:10plans I'm joined by Labour's Shadow Transport Secretary Andy McDonald

0:31:10 > 0:31:15who's in Newcastle.

0:31:15 > 0:31:23Good morning, thank you for joining us.John McDonnell says the plans to

0:31:23 > 0:31:26re-nationalise energy, water and rail would cost absolutely nothing.

0:31:26 > 0:31:33That sounds too good to be true. Explain how it could work?In terms

0:31:33 > 0:31:36of the rail Wales, it would bring the railways back into public

0:31:36 > 0:31:43ownership at no cost at all. -- in terms of the railways. We would

0:31:43 > 0:31:49bring them back once the franchises expire. That would be considerable

0:31:49 > 0:31:53savings of £1 billion per annum. Then you will have to find £70

0:31:53 > 0:31:57billion for the water industry, nearly 40 billion for the National

0:31:57 > 0:32:05Grid, how can that cost nothing? Because you would be acquiring an

0:32:05 > 0:32:12asset, you would be acquiring an asset, you would be paying back the

0:32:12 > 0:32:16revenues which you derive over the businesses over time and you would

0:32:16 > 0:32:20keep the costs down for the consumer.So you would be adding to

0:32:20 > 0:32:24the national debt and you would have to pay interest on that debt which

0:32:24 > 0:32:28you would do out of the revenue you get from the companies, but you also

0:32:28 > 0:32:31say it will cost less from the consumers that bills would come

0:32:31 > 0:32:39down.If you have £30.5 billion of dividends paid out, if you run

0:32:39 > 0:32:44things on a not-for-profit basis, it can ensure that customers can get

0:32:44 > 0:32:48the best possible returns.That profit might be good for customers

0:32:48 > 0:32:51but it does not sound good for paying back the interest on the

0:32:51 > 0:32:56loans that you took out for buying the organisations in the first

0:32:56 > 0:33:00place?You heard John McDonnell express the analogy of having a

0:33:00 > 0:33:05mortgage over a property. You have acquired the assets, you have the

0:33:05 > 0:33:09income derived from renting it out, it pays the gas it and you have

0:33:09 > 0:33:13still got it. It makes consulate sent to hold those acids and make

0:33:13 > 0:33:19them work for the benefit of the citizens.If interest rates rise,

0:33:19 > 0:33:24after you bought that house and you are renting it out, it is important

0:33:24 > 0:33:30that costs can derive from the rental income. We know that rates

0:33:30 > 0:33:34can rise. There is every possibility that the interest you will be paying

0:33:34 > 0:33:39will not cover the profits and cost? It is no different to the position

0:33:39 > 0:33:45now. If water companies and energy companies are financed, they have

0:33:45 > 0:33:50those structures in place, the rate of interest that they pay on their

0:33:50 > 0:33:54financing is passed through to the consumer ultimately.I tell you how

0:33:54 > 0:33:59it is different now, and your system it would be passed to the taxpayer

0:33:59 > 0:34:03presumably. If any of these industries started making a loss,

0:34:03 > 0:34:09who picks up the tab for that?Have they made a loss since they were

0:34:09 > 0:34:15privatised? They have not, they have made very great profits.The reason

0:34:15 > 0:34:21they are giving up the east Coast franchise is because they have lost

0:34:21 > 0:34:25£200 million.That shows how the franchising system is completely and

0:34:25 > 0:34:31utterly flawed and should be abandoned.If the government run

0:34:31 > 0:34:35East Coast Mainline lost £2 billion, who would be on the hook, the

0:34:35 > 0:34:40taxpayer?When the government last ran East Coast Mainline they ran it

0:34:40 > 0:34:45at a profit, it brought money into the Treasury. We have a good history

0:34:45 > 0:34:48of running the railways correctly and not having this bailout to

0:34:48 > 0:34:53Richard Branson and Brian Souter and the rest of them or seeing the

0:34:53 > 0:35:00dividends and profits overseas to the state-owned companies of

0:35:00 > 0:35:04continental Europe. We want to put an end to that and make sure we run

0:35:04 > 0:35:10our railways for the benefits of the public.Let's look at one company,

0:35:10 > 0:35:13Bristol energy which looks like the kind of company you are advocating.

0:35:13 > 0:35:19It is set up locally and has ethical behaviour. There are no shareholders

0:35:19 > 0:35:24so nobody is taking a profit out of it. It has lost 2 million over two

0:35:24 > 0:35:29years and does not expect to be profitable until 2021. But does not

0:35:29 > 0:35:36sound like a great deal for the taxpayer if that is how you're going

0:35:36 > 0:35:38to run the National Grid.If they are recouping the losses and they

0:35:38 > 0:35:42have the trajectory of growth and greater incomes, they will look at

0:35:42 > 0:35:49that and say to successful.The Labour government...They got tax

0:35:49 > 0:35:54breaks, public capital to set them up in the first instance, they were

0:35:54 > 0:35:59heavily subsidised so they could go on and enjoy the benefits of private

0:35:59 > 0:36:03enterprise that does not benefit the consumer or the taxpayer or the

0:36:03 > 0:36:08citizens, however you wish to describe it.The consumer and the

0:36:08 > 0:36:12taxpayer may be the same person but they have a different financial

0:36:12 > 0:36:17relationship with these companies. What comes first, using any profit

0:36:17 > 0:36:22or revenue you have used to acquire these assets or cutting bills?You

0:36:22 > 0:36:28do both. If you have got that income you can use it for those purposes.

0:36:28 > 0:36:33Do cut energy bills or do you repay the debt?Those who have benefited

0:36:33 > 0:36:37from privatisation of had the benefit of not only using that money

0:36:37 > 0:36:41to pay the debt they incurred to buy the assets, they are now using it to

0:36:41 > 0:36:46make dividend payments out to their shareholders. It clearly can be done

0:36:46 > 0:36:50and we want to be in that position so it works for the benefit of

0:36:50 > 0:36:56people and not for corporate entities.The shareholders are not

0:36:56 > 0:36:59all millionaire individuals. A lot of this is owned by pension funds to

0:36:59 > 0:37:03which many workers pensions are held, can you guarantee that you

0:37:03 > 0:37:12will reinforce the Leave reimburse them at full market value so that

0:37:12 > 0:37:16nobody's pension will lose out?The market value is the market value at

0:37:16 > 0:37:21the time these assets are required. John McDonnell has made it clear

0:37:21 > 0:37:28that they will be acquired at that rate.But not for cash, in exchange

0:37:28 > 0:37:32for government bonds?They are still in that strong position of having

0:37:32 > 0:37:37the value fully reflected. What is happening is that not everybody is a

0:37:37 > 0:37:42shareholder. It means there is greater equity for all of the

0:37:42 > 0:37:45population, not only an narrow segment of it, surely that has got

0:37:45 > 0:37:50to be for the benefit of everybody. Thank you for talking to us.

0:37:50 > 0:37:53It's coming up to 11.40, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:37:53 > 0:37:54Still to come:

0:37:54 > 0:37:57We'll look at the implications to the charity sector of the latest

0:37:57 > 0:37:58allegations of sexual abuse involving Oxfam staff

0:37:58 > 0:38:00and the government's promise to get tough.

0:38:00 > 0:38:08First though, it's time for the Sunday Politics where you are.

0:38:10 > 0:38:14Hello and welcome to the London part of the programme, I'm Jo Coburn.

0:38:14 > 0:38:17Joining me for the duration of the show, Stephen Pound,

0:38:17 > 0:38:20Labour MP for Ealing North and Bob Neill, Conservative MP

0:38:20 > 0:38:22for Bromley and Chislehurst.

0:38:22 > 0:38:25Welcome to both of you.

0:38:25 > 0:38:29This week, Labour's Shadow Secretary of State for Housing, John Healy

0:38:29 > 0:38:31said the government's fire safety testing system was in chaos,

0:38:31 > 0:38:36and Housing Minister Dominic Raab was failing to offer fresh advice,

0:38:36 > 0:38:38let alone fresh action to deal with the problems.

0:38:38 > 0:38:41This was prompted by the revelation that some cladding safety

0:38:41 > 0:38:45tests will have to be redone after discrepancies.

0:38:45 > 0:38:48Bob, how else would you describe it but chaos?

0:38:48 > 0:38:51I think there is a challenge we have to deal with because there

0:38:51 > 0:38:53is an awful lot of change in the technology.

0:38:53 > 0:38:56I was a Fire Services Minister myself in the coalition,

0:38:56 > 0:39:00and actually we have a very rigorous system for testing, but we have had

0:39:00 > 0:39:02new materials coming in and new combinations of materials

0:39:02 > 0:39:05and certainly, we have to make sure the system keeps up to date

0:39:05 > 0:39:07with changes in technology.

0:39:07 > 0:39:13Bob calls it a challenge.

0:39:13 > 0:39:14You called it chaos.

0:39:14 > 0:39:16I call it lethal, potentially murderous chaos,

0:39:16 > 0:39:17but there is some good news.

0:39:17 > 0:39:20Dany Cotton, who is the current Fire Brigade Commissioner has now

0:39:20 > 0:39:23been appointed to the new post because you probably know

0:39:23 > 0:39:25the Fire Service has been taken into the Mayor's office

0:39:25 > 0:39:27so there will be a Commissioner for Fire Safety.

0:39:27 > 0:39:29What will that mean in real terms?

0:39:29 > 0:39:32What it will mean is oversight, somebody in the central position

0:39:32 > 0:39:34will have the authority to actually liaise with all the local

0:39:34 > 0:39:40authorities, all the people who do the planning work,

0:39:40 > 0:39:43all the people doing the risk assessment, and finally we can keep

0:39:43 > 0:39:46up with the new technology and we can have that central body

0:39:46 > 0:39:48in London with the authority and oversight and above all,

0:39:48 > 0:39:50the bank of knowledge that we need.

0:39:50 > 0:39:52We have not just a situation that Bob talks about,

0:39:52 > 0:39:55but the problem Croydon and other places, where people have bought

0:39:55 > 0:39:58the leaseholds of their blocks, the cladding has failed

0:39:58 > 0:40:00and they have now been told they have to come up with £20,000

0:40:00 > 0:40:01to pay for new cladding.

0:40:01 > 0:40:04The other thing we have to do is make sure there is rigorous

0:40:04 > 0:40:05enforcement of this.

0:40:05 > 0:40:07You do the testing, great, you identify concerns

0:40:07 > 0:40:11and enforcement isn't done properly, if fire doors are not kept properly

0:40:11 > 0:40:11closed, things like that.

0:40:11 > 0:40:14I agree you need a holistic approach.

0:40:14 > 0:40:17Do you accept, as Sajid Javid said, whatever the legal case may be,

0:40:17 > 0:40:20the moral case is clear that the tab should be picked up

0:40:20 > 0:40:22by the freeholder?

0:40:22 > 0:40:26So when it comes to cladding being replaced, once the testing has

0:40:26 > 0:40:29been done to establish there is a threat, should government

0:40:29 > 0:40:33pick up the tab for any council who needs it?

0:40:33 > 0:40:36Very often the freeholder will be a housing association

0:40:36 > 0:40:39and they are the people providing affordable housing, so let's look

0:40:39 > 0:40:40at the practicalities.

0:40:40 > 0:40:42That sounds like a no.

0:40:42 > 0:40:44I think it is not quite simplistic.

0:40:44 > 0:40:48It is easy for the Mayor to come out with a sound bite but the reality

0:40:48 > 0:40:50is we have to make this work out.

0:40:50 > 0:40:55Only three out of 160 social housing towers,

0:40:55 > 0:40:59were identified as unsafe and only three of them have had

0:40:59 > 0:41:01their cladding replaced.

0:41:01 > 0:41:04Is that too slow?

0:41:04 > 0:41:07I think it is as fast as you can sensibly go,

0:41:07 > 0:41:09given the pressures you have got.

0:41:09 > 0:41:11Very often you have to decamp people.

0:41:11 > 0:41:14I think there is a lot of work being done and the levels

0:41:14 > 0:41:16of risk will vary.

0:41:16 > 0:41:19Sometimes, there are other forms of fire protection built

0:41:19 > 0:41:20into the buildings as well.

0:41:20 > 0:41:23I think the key thing is to get it right.

0:41:23 > 0:41:26If there is immediate risk you have to get it right.

0:41:26 > 0:41:30Today in London this weekend, every building which has not had

0:41:30 > 0:41:33cladding reviewed has fire marshals walking round it.

0:41:33 > 0:41:36We are paying for that.

0:41:36 > 0:41:39This is one of the reasons why we need to get this done quickly.

0:41:39 > 0:41:41I think Sajid Javid, I have to say, the Secretary

0:41:41 > 0:41:43of State is right on this.

0:41:43 > 0:41:44It is a moral issue.

0:41:44 > 0:41:47But we are wasting money on keeping an eye on something

0:41:47 > 0:41:49which should not be a threat.

0:41:49 > 0:41:50How easy is it to move residents out?

0:41:50 > 0:41:53It is not straightforward as we know from Grenfell, trying to find

0:41:53 > 0:41:55the right accommodation.

0:41:55 > 0:41:57Grenfell Tower burnt down.

0:41:57 > 0:41:59I was a housing officer in Camden, I had three tower blocks

0:41:59 > 0:42:00on Mornington Crescent.

0:42:00 > 0:42:03Back in the 80s when we renewed the cladding,

0:42:03 > 0:42:05we did not move anybody out.

0:42:05 > 0:42:07The people had an obstructed view from their windows,

0:42:07 > 0:42:09but you could remove the cladding externally.

0:42:09 > 0:42:12You can do it and we should do it and Camden did it

0:42:12 > 0:42:13all those years ago.

0:42:13 > 0:42:15Everyone should be doing it.

0:42:15 > 0:42:18To say we have to decamp people is very, very exceptional.

0:42:18 > 0:42:20You very seldom have to do that.

0:42:20 > 0:42:23What you can do is Wandsworth, they are fitting sprinklers

0:42:23 > 0:42:25to all their tower blocks over ten stories.

0:42:25 > 0:42:30They have gone ahead and done it without waiting.

0:42:30 > 0:42:35We are going to talk about Wandsworth in fact now.

0:42:35 > 0:42:37The starting gun has been fired in the campaign for the local

0:42:37 > 0:42:41elections in London, due to be held in May.

0:42:41 > 0:42:44Our reporter has been to Wandsworth, the jewel in the crown of local

0:42:44 > 0:42:46Conservative government which which Labour have high hopes

0:42:46 > 0:42:51of wrestling from Tory control.

0:42:51 > 0:42:54This was the tune topping the charts last time Labour

0:42:54 > 0:42:56won Wandsworth Council.

0:42:56 > 0:43:01# My my, at Waterloo, Napoleon did surrender...

0:43:01 > 0:43:04But could the local elections become the Waterloo moment

0:43:04 > 0:43:07for Conservatives in the borough?

0:43:07 > 0:43:09The London Borough of Wandsworth.

0:43:09 > 0:43:12Over the years it has got a reputation as a testing ground for

0:43:12 > 0:43:14the nation's political inclinations.

0:43:14 > 0:43:17It has been a flagship Tory council for nearly four decades,

0:43:17 > 0:43:21portrayed as a model of Conservative efficiency in local government

0:43:21 > 0:43:23and it prides itself on having the lowest council tax

0:43:23 > 0:43:27in the country.

0:43:27 > 0:43:32Now the Labour Mayor of London has declared it a top target in May.

0:43:32 > 0:43:34Winning control of Wandsworth would have great symbolic power,

0:43:34 > 0:43:38and the outcome could depend on the results of just a few

0:43:38 > 0:43:40wards like this one, Queenstown, where housing will be

0:43:40 > 0:43:44a key battle ground.

0:43:44 > 0:43:47One of the biggest redevelopment in Europe is taking place

0:43:47 > 0:43:50at Nine Elms, including at Battersea Power Station,

0:43:50 > 0:43:54with the newly opened US Embassy nearby.

0:43:54 > 0:43:57We are on this estate a stone's throw from Battersea Power Station.

0:43:57 > 0:44:00Aydin Dikerdem is the only Labour councillor here.

0:44:00 > 0:44:03We have council estates like these which were run down and lacked

0:44:03 > 0:44:05investment for decades.

0:44:05 > 0:44:09And then all around, million pound flats are rising up around them.

0:44:09 > 0:44:12It is completely unacceptable for Wandsworth Council to claim it

0:44:12 > 0:44:14has a progressive policy on housing.

0:44:14 > 0:44:17It is a pioneer of all the worst possible housing policies

0:44:17 > 0:44:19which have led to this crisis.

0:44:19 > 0:44:21And Conservatives are already campaigning and robustly

0:44:21 > 0:44:23defend their record on housing.

0:44:23 > 0:44:28This council has consistently built homes and we will build 1000

0:44:28 > 0:44:31new homes, 60% of which will be affordable, aimed at people

0:44:31 > 0:44:36who live in the borough or work in the borough.

0:44:36 > 0:44:40We have two regeneration programmes, one in Battersea, one in Roehampton,

0:44:40 > 0:44:43a net increase of 3000 homes, of which 40% would be

0:44:43 > 0:44:47targeted at people who live and work in the borough.

0:44:47 > 0:44:51Our key promise has been that this is a council that charges the least

0:44:51 > 0:44:58amount of tax that is necessary to run the best quality of services.

0:44:58 > 0:45:01Labour campaigners were also doorknocking this week.

0:45:01 > 0:45:04They have high hopes, partly due to the success of this

0:45:04 > 0:45:07politician at the general election.

0:45:07 > 0:45:09The Tooting MP increased her majority in what

0:45:09 > 0:45:12was a marginal seat.

0:45:12 > 0:45:15The party gained Battersea and increased its vote share in Putney.

0:45:15 > 0:45:19Dining out on a low council tax will not cut it any more.

0:45:19 > 0:45:23Local residents in Tooting have said enough is enough.

0:45:23 > 0:45:27The Labour group will keep the council tax low but prioritise

0:45:27 > 0:45:30where they spend it.

0:45:30 > 0:45:33But it will not be plain sailing for Labour in Wandsworth.

0:45:33 > 0:45:36In the last election they won 19 seats, gaining six

0:45:36 > 0:45:39from the Conservatives who won 41.

0:45:39 > 0:45:42Since then, two Tories have left the party,

0:45:42 > 0:45:45meaning that in May, Labour will need 12 more

0:45:45 > 0:45:49councillors to get a majority.

0:45:49 > 0:45:51And according to the Conservative election analyst Lord Hayward,

0:45:51 > 0:45:55the Tories will need to work hard to prevent that.

0:45:55 > 0:46:00There is demographic change going on across London.

0:46:00 > 0:46:06The Tories have been doing badly relatively in London

0:46:06 > 0:46:09in the last 15 or so years, so it makes all London

0:46:09 > 0:46:10boroughs under threat.

0:46:10 > 0:46:13Wandsworth is one of the totemic Tory boroughs, very much

0:46:13 > 0:46:18under threat this time.

0:46:18 > 0:46:20The indications are it will be a fight of their lives.

0:46:20 > 0:46:22The Conservatives are working from a strong base,

0:46:22 > 0:46:25but the Labour Party, if I can use the word,

0:46:25 > 0:46:27have momentum.

0:46:27 > 0:46:32Council elections decide who will run your local services.

0:46:32 > 0:46:34The ones being held in three months in London may have wider political

0:46:34 > 0:46:36repercussions than that.

0:46:36 > 0:46:39Losing control of Wandsworth or other Tory lead councils may

0:46:39 > 0:46:41mean the Prime Minister will face her own battle

0:46:41 > 0:46:43to hold on to power.

0:46:43 > 0:46:46Five or six years ago, Bob, it would have been inconceivable

0:46:46 > 0:46:49that we would be discussing the Tories losing Wandsworth.

0:46:49 > 0:46:52What has gone wrong?

0:46:52 > 0:46:55Well, we have not done well in London in recent years.

0:46:55 > 0:46:59You saw that in the general election.

0:46:59 > 0:47:05And the fact is London has a young demographic,

0:47:05 > 0:47:08it tended to vote Remain in the referendum as you know as did

0:47:08 > 0:47:12I, and we need to make sure we have a message for those people.

0:47:12 > 0:47:14But the other thing I would point out though which is sometimes

0:47:14 > 0:47:16forgotten, Wandsworth has got a strong local brand

0:47:16 > 0:47:19as a value for money authority and a very well-run authority.

0:47:19 > 0:47:21Throughout the Blair years, even when Wandsworth

0:47:21 > 0:47:24was returning all Labour MPs, the people of Wandsworth voted

0:47:24 > 0:47:26for Conservative councils.

0:47:26 > 0:47:29I think there is a history of drawing a distinction,

0:47:29 > 0:47:31so nothing is over until it is until it is fought.

0:47:31 > 0:47:33But how worried are you?

0:47:33 > 0:47:34We are taking it seriously.

0:47:34 > 0:47:35We take every election seriously.

0:47:35 > 0:47:36I take my borough seriously.

0:47:36 > 0:47:39Every election you fight to win.

0:47:39 > 0:47:47But it feels much more shaky now than it has done for years?

0:47:49 > 0:47:51For the reasons I have just mentioned and the circumstance,

0:47:51 > 0:47:54but we have a strong local message that you heard from Ravi Govindia

0:47:54 > 0:47:57and I think that people in Wandsworth will probably draw

0:47:57 > 0:47:59a distinction between the quality of their services and next

0:47:59 > 0:48:00door in Lambeth, say.

0:48:00 > 0:48:02You can overestimate the power of the influence

0:48:02 > 0:48:05of the Brexit referendum, and the fact that London is seen

0:48:05 > 0:48:07as this Remainer stronghold, when it comes to local elections

0:48:07 > 0:48:10though, that is not going to have the impact or be decisive

0:48:10 > 0:48:13in the way Labour hopes?

0:48:13 > 0:48:16Bob is right to talk about the black Asian and minority ethnic community,

0:48:16 > 0:48:20the increase in the Remainers and the youth vote although

0:48:20 > 0:48:21the youth thing is not...

0:48:21 > 0:48:24It has been proven it was not as dramatic as it was thought.

0:48:24 > 0:48:29If you take Barnet, Westminster and Wandsworth,

0:48:29 > 0:48:31those are three boroughs which I think will go Labour

0:48:31 > 0:48:33if we keep working on it.

0:48:33 > 0:48:35I think Bromley, Bexley and Hillingdon will probably stay.

0:48:35 > 0:48:38But if you look at some of Wandsworth, the top ten boroughs

0:48:38 > 0:48:41when it comes to the lowest council tax anywhere in the country,

0:48:41 > 0:48:43bizarrely seven of them are Labour, places like Hull,

0:48:43 > 0:48:44Manchester and Sandwell.

0:48:44 > 0:48:45The top two Wandsworth and Westminster.

0:48:45 > 0:48:48What people are saying to me in Wandsworth and Westminster

0:48:48 > 0:48:55is it is the priority of the council is not right.

0:48:55 > 0:48:57They should not be concentrating purely on trying to reduce

0:48:57 > 0:49:00the council tax, it should be about quality-of-life,

0:49:00 > 0:49:01about services and housing.

0:49:01 > 0:49:04So you do accept that the issue of the EU referendum will not be

0:49:04 > 0:49:06the priority in terms of the campaign?

0:49:06 > 0:49:07We're not voting for that.

0:49:07 > 0:49:10There is a kind of a mood out there where that is seen

0:49:10 > 0:49:15as the progressive vote and the Conservative vote is small.

0:49:15 > 0:49:19Will it be enough to hold onto the tradition of Wandsworth

0:49:19 > 0:49:24having recordly low levels of council tax?

0:49:24 > 0:49:28That is part of the mix but Wandsworth is one of the boroughs

0:49:28 > 0:49:30in London which has a weekly collection of refuse, something

0:49:30 > 0:49:31people regard as important.

0:49:31 > 0:49:35And as Ravi Govindia says it has an ambitious housing programme.

0:49:35 > 0:49:37There are 1000 which are council houses and new estate regeneration.

0:49:37 > 0:49:40Wandsworth are delivering regeneration.

0:49:40 > 0:49:42Momentum has taken over Haringey and have cancelled an estate

0:49:42 > 0:49:43regeneration project.

0:49:43 > 0:49:45Which part is actually delivering?

0:49:45 > 0:49:49How damaging is the issue about sourcing?

0:49:49 > 0:49:53Obviously, we have seen Carillion and the loss of that company

0:49:53 > 0:49:56and the public services it provides and Wandsworth is a big

0:49:56 > 0:49:57outsourcer of services?

0:49:57 > 0:50:00When it is done properly and I think Wandsworth do it properly,

0:50:00 > 0:50:03I think people don't worry who delivers the service,

0:50:03 > 0:50:06providing it is a good one and that is where I come back

0:50:06 > 0:50:08to the quality of things that refuse and environmental

0:50:08 > 0:50:10services in Wandsworth, which are among the best

0:50:10 > 0:50:11of anywhere in London.

0:50:11 > 0:50:14They have a good track record on the ground.

0:50:14 > 0:50:18There is a strong brand in Wandsworth and Labour

0:50:18 > 0:50:21will struggle, despite the fact it is buoyed by what has happened

0:50:21 > 0:50:24in recent years to take a council which is seen as a stronghold

0:50:24 > 0:50:26for the Conservatives?

0:50:26 > 0:50:29We took the seat of Battersea very much against the odds

0:50:29 > 0:50:32in the parliamentary election last year, but equally, the point you

0:50:32 > 0:50:33make about outsourcing is crucial.

0:50:33 > 0:50:36If you take a borough like Barnet which is the easy council,

0:50:36 > 0:50:37they outsource everything.

0:50:37 > 0:50:41People are tired of that.

0:50:41 > 0:50:44They realise there is no accountability.

0:50:44 > 0:50:46I think Wandsworth has not gone as far as Barnet,

0:50:46 > 0:50:48but it has gone too far for most people.

0:50:48 > 0:50:51I think it sticks in people's throats and it is not just Carillion

0:50:51 > 0:50:54and the possibility of problems with Capita, it is the philosophy

0:50:54 > 0:51:00of delivering local services.

0:51:00 > 0:51:02How much will May's elections be seen as a test

0:51:02 > 0:51:05of Theresa May's leadership?

0:51:05 > 0:51:08Inevitably national issues come into that, but I think again

0:51:08 > 0:51:09we will have a decent message, a good message that

0:51:09 > 0:51:11we can put out there.

0:51:11 > 0:51:15The Prime Minister is doing a pretty thankless task at the moment.

0:51:15 > 0:51:17Delivering on what was decided in the referendum.

0:51:17 > 0:51:20At the same time we've got to carry on the day-to-day

0:51:20 > 0:51:23management of the country.

0:51:23 > 0:51:27I think a lot of people respect her for sticking to her guns

0:51:27 > 0:51:29around this and putting up a tough fight under difficult circumstances.

0:51:29 > 0:51:31Is she a hindrance, though, to your performance

0:51:31 > 0:51:33in the local elections?

0:51:33 > 0:51:33Not at all.

0:51:33 > 0:51:36I think they want somebody who is actually getting on with the job.

0:51:36 > 0:51:39I don't see a huge amount of affection for her on the doorstep.

0:51:39 > 0:51:42I think the worrying thing is nationally the Tories are doing

0:51:42 > 0:51:43very well in the polls.

0:51:43 > 0:51:46They are doing far too well, in my opinion.

0:51:46 > 0:51:50So, why isn't Labour managing to actually outstripped

0:51:50 > 0:51:51the Tories in the polls?

0:51:51 > 0:51:54In London it is.

0:51:54 > 0:51:55It is.

0:51:55 > 0:51:57But that's been the case for quite some time.

0:51:57 > 0:51:58You're not actually improving on that.

0:51:58 > 0:52:00You're only preaching to the converted.

0:52:00 > 0:52:021986 was the best year ever for Labour in London.

0:52:02 > 0:52:04We didn't win Wandsworth, we didn't win Barnett.

0:52:04 > 0:52:06We are doing better in London.

0:52:06 > 0:52:07Possibly for reasons Bob enunciated and possibly

0:52:07 > 0:52:08for the reasons you do.

0:52:08 > 0:52:11But the Theresa May factor is the interesting one,

0:52:11 > 0:52:13because I don't think that she appears to be

0:52:13 > 0:52:14dragging the party down nationally.

0:52:14 > 0:52:17In London I don't see a huge amount of affection for her.

0:52:17 > 0:52:19But I think Labour must not assume that this is

0:52:19 > 0:52:22low hanging fruit that is going to fall into our laps.

0:52:22 > 0:52:25And we need to work extremely hard to win those boroughs.

0:52:25 > 0:52:27And anyone in the Labour Party he thinks that...

0:52:27 > 0:52:29You know Jim Callaghan's thing about the sea changes

0:52:29 > 0:52:30happening, they are wrong.

0:52:30 > 0:52:33Everyone associates in London is there to be fought for and won.

0:52:33 > 0:52:35Nobody has a free pass this time.

0:52:35 > 0:52:38-- Everyone of those seats in London is there to be fought for and won.

0:52:38 > 0:52:40Nobody has a free pass this time.

0:52:40 > 0:52:42Job, if you were in charge of the Conservative machine

0:52:42 > 0:52:44in London what would you be doing?

0:52:44 > 0:52:46I'd be wanting to make sure we ramp up our activity,

0:52:46 > 0:52:49both on the doorstep, we still have a lot more

0:52:49 > 0:52:50to do on social media.

0:52:50 > 0:52:52Now James Cleverly, London politician, is now in charge

0:52:52 > 0:52:54of that, as deputy chairman of our party.

0:52:54 > 0:52:56We certainly need to be doubling down on average significant

0:52:56 > 0:52:58commitment to housing.

0:52:58 > 0:53:00We are putting in record numbers of investment into housing.

0:53:00 > 0:53:02But we always need to run faster on that.

0:53:02 > 0:53:06And we've also got to make sure that we are seen to be delivering

0:53:06 > 0:53:08on a pragmatic Brexit, one that works for

0:53:08 > 0:53:10businesses and jobs in London, particularly because of the big

0:53:10 > 0:53:18financial services sector that there is in London.

0:53:19 > 0:53:21Coming out of the single market and the customs union,

0:53:21 > 0:53:22how will that go down?

0:53:22 > 0:53:25I think we need to make very carefully sure

0:53:25 > 0:53:28that we don't do that in any way which prejudices the position of

0:53:28 > 0:53:29London as the financial centre.

0:53:29 > 0:53:31A large number of jobs would get hit.

0:53:31 > 0:53:33And Labour has been no clearer, of course,

0:53:33 > 0:53:34on its Brexit policy, either.

0:53:34 > 0:53:36We want to get the best possible deal.

0:53:36 > 0:53:38If that includes, at the moment, staying within the

0:53:38 > 0:53:40customs union, I personally would sign up for it tomorrow.

0:53:40 > 0:53:42We have all heard complaints about foreigners

0:53:42 > 0:53:45buying up London property, driving up prices and leaving homes empty,

0:53:45 > 0:53:47sometimes in so-called ghost towns.

0:53:47 > 0:53:51-- sometimes in so-called ghost towers.

0:53:51 > 0:53:53Luxury developments that remain uninhabited.

0:53:53 > 0:53:56Now the mayor, Sadiq Khan, has proposed to give Londoners

0:53:56 > 0:53:59first dibs on new properties.

0:53:59 > 0:54:02But will it increase the number of homes available for local people?

0:54:02 > 0:54:05The Mayor says he's persuaded a group of developers to offer new

0:54:05 > 0:54:07homes to Londoners first before selling them to buyers abroad.

0:54:07 > 0:54:09Research that he commissioned found that at

0:54:09 > 0:54:13least one in ten new-build homes in London were being sold abroad.

0:54:13 > 0:54:16What people really didn't like, I think, was homes being sold

0:54:16 > 0:54:19overseas before Londoners, people living in London, were even

0:54:19 > 0:54:21aware of those homes being built or being offered for sale.

0:54:21 > 0:54:24The measure would apply to new-build under £350,000,

0:54:24 > 0:54:29of which there were 6000 sold last year.

0:54:29 > 0:54:32These properties will be available to Brits for the first three months

0:54:32 > 0:54:35with Londoners getting the exclusive right to buy in the first month.

0:54:35 > 0:54:39It's really not much different from what his predecessor had.

0:54:39 > 0:54:40This is a voluntary agreement.

0:54:40 > 0:54:44He hasn't used the full weight of the planning system.

0:54:44 > 0:54:47It's not going to deliver much in the way of homes for Londoners.

0:54:47 > 0:54:49Especially since he hasn't built many.

0:54:49 > 0:54:53I just very much doubt whether this is going to be effective.

0:54:53 > 0:54:55The actual problem we have is people buying homes

0:54:55 > 0:54:58that they don't intend to live in.

0:54:58 > 0:55:01That should be the focus of policy and that can be done

0:55:01 > 0:55:02through planning conditions.

0:55:02 > 0:55:04The measure won't apply to the luxury apartment blocks some

0:55:04 > 0:55:12activists have dubbed "Ghost Towers" for being uninhabited.

0:55:13 > 0:55:15There are 26,000 luxury flats priced at more than £1 million currently

0:55:15 > 0:55:16being developed in London.

0:55:16 > 0:55:19And I'm joined by Lisa McKenzie, an academic at the London School

0:55:19 > 0:55:21of economics, who is a supporter of the radical campaigning

0:55:21 > 0:55:23group Class War.

0:55:23 > 0:55:24Welcome to the programme.

0:55:24 > 0:55:27Just before I come to you, how would this policy work of

0:55:27 > 0:55:30giving Londoners the first chance to get to these properties?

0:55:30 > 0:55:31It depends on the mechanism for sale.

0:55:31 > 0:55:33If you simply advertise through an estate

0:55:33 > 0:55:35agent, then somebody in Shanghai or wherever can obviously buy it

0:55:35 > 0:55:37through an agent, for example.

0:55:37 > 0:55:38There are ways of doing it.

0:55:38 > 0:55:41So two pronged approach.

0:55:41 > 0:55:43First, increasing the council tax on empty properties,

0:55:43 > 0:55:44not decreasing the council tax on empty properties.

0:55:44 > 0:55:49At the moment, after six months, you get a reduction.

0:55:49 > 0:55:51Any property that's empty should be doubled up.

0:55:51 > 0:55:52And it's...

0:55:52 > 0:55:54When the properties are built, the planning

0:55:54 > 0:55:56permission is dependent upon the final disposition of the property.

0:55:56 > 0:55:58You've got to have real social housing.

0:55:58 > 0:55:59Right, but this is voluntary, this scheme.

0:55:59 > 0:56:01So it's toothless, isn't it?

0:56:01 > 0:56:02At the moment...

0:56:02 > 0:56:04No, no, it's pointing in the right direction,

0:56:04 > 0:56:07and we start off with a voluntary and hopefully if it doesn't work

0:56:07 > 0:56:09we will have to introduce statute.

0:56:09 > 0:56:10Does it have your support?

0:56:10 > 0:56:13It sounds nice on the surface.

0:56:13 > 0:56:16But I don't think it actually is practically deliverable.

0:56:16 > 0:56:19And the reason is this, he's not building the houses

0:56:19 > 0:56:23in the first place.

0:56:23 > 0:56:26He had a £3 billion, given by the government to the Mayor,

0:56:26 > 0:56:28as a Housing pot to deliver 90,000 houses by 2025.

0:56:28 > 0:56:30He has built 9000.

0:56:30 > 0:56:33Is Sadiq Khan's policy actually disguising what really needs

0:56:33 > 0:56:35to be done, as Bob says, which is building

0:56:35 > 0:56:36a volume of new homes?

0:56:36 > 0:56:37Yes.

0:56:37 > 0:56:39Sadiq Khan's policy is just empty rhetoric, really.

0:56:39 > 0:56:40It means nothing.

0:56:40 > 0:56:48We are going to allow British billionaires to get the

0:56:50 > 0:56:52first dibs on the 50 million towers in the Shard...

0:56:52 > 0:56:54Why would it be British billionaires?

0:56:54 > 0:56:57What he's going to do is say that the British have got

0:56:57 > 0:56:59first dibs on properties in London.

0:56:59 > 0:57:03But the problem is not at the top, the problem is at the bottom.

0:57:03 > 0:57:06The housing problem is really at the bottom and it is about people

0:57:06 > 0:57:10who cannot get somewhere to rent, well, actually, not even to buy,

0:57:10 > 0:57:12but to rent at a reasonable and at a real, affordable price.

0:57:12 > 0:57:17What is a real and affordable price?

0:57:17 > 0:57:19Because the policy, as I understand it,

0:57:19 > 0:57:22is for properties under £350,000.

0:57:22 > 0:57:25Now, that is still an awful lot of money, but it wouldn't just be

0:57:25 > 0:57:27billionaires who could afford to buy those.

0:57:27 > 0:57:29It wouldn't, no, but, you know, for working-class people

0:57:29 > 0:57:31in London that have got, you know, a combined

0:57:31 > 0:57:34income of, you know, perhaps £30,000, they are nowhere near ever,

0:57:34 > 0:57:38ever going to get on that property ladder in London.

0:57:38 > 0:57:44What would you do?

0:57:44 > 0:57:49For me it's all about real, social housing, and not even

0:57:49 > 0:57:52social housing, it's about council housing.

0:57:52 > 0:57:54Council housing, local government owned, which means we all own it.

0:57:54 > 0:57:56It's almost like a cooperative, a local cooperative.

0:57:56 > 0:58:02For me it's about council housing.

0:58:02 > 0:58:05I don't know why Sadiq Khan keeps coming up with these, sort of,

0:58:05 > 0:58:08empty rhetoric policies.

0:58:08 > 0:58:11And it does sound like windowdressing, to coin

0:58:11 > 0:58:14a phrase from Sadiq Khan, when actually the two

0:58:14 > 0:58:15things that are important, not enough homes are being built,

0:58:15 > 0:58:17and there isn't enough social housing.

0:58:17 > 0:58:20If you look at the paper James Murray produced a couple of weeks

0:58:20 > 0:58:23ago, the Mayor's housing adviser, he specifically talks

0:58:23 > 0:58:24about the right to buy still impacting on this.

0:58:24 > 0:58:27If you built 10,000 new homes in London tomorrow without repealing

0:58:27 > 0:58:30the right to buy legislation, within two years they'd all be gone.

0:58:30 > 0:58:31I agree.

0:58:31 > 0:58:33A huge problem, which is why.

0:58:33 > 0:58:36In some ways Claire Kober was actually talking some sense

0:58:36 > 0:58:37in the Haringey development issue.

0:58:37 > 0:58:39We're actually talking about different forms of tenure.

0:58:39 > 0:58:41My council in Ealing, we are building housing,

0:58:41 > 0:58:44but we are building them whereby we can allocate them through housing

0:58:44 > 0:58:47associations where right to buy does not apply at the present time.

0:58:47 > 0:58:49Otherwise we are building and we are simply building

0:58:49 > 0:58:50for the millionaires of tomorrow.

0:58:50 > 0:58:53In terms of who can afford to buy properties in London,

0:58:53 > 0:58:55what would you call an affordable price free London home?

0:58:55 > 0:58:59-- what would you call an affordable price for a London home?

0:58:59 > 0:59:00What I was interested in, Stephen's point

0:59:00 > 0:59:02there, is Wandsworth Council.

0:59:02 > 0:59:04They are targeting their affordable housing properties for people on

0:59:04 > 0:59:07incomes of 23,000, which is well below the London average.

0:59:07 > 0:59:08That's what we've got to be doing.

0:59:08 > 0:59:09I'm with Stephen.

0:59:09 > 0:59:15We need a mix of tenures here.

0:59:15 > 0:59:17What about taking over empty foreign-owned properties to house

0:59:17 > 0:59:19the homeless, Stephen, is that a good idea?

0:59:19 > 0:59:21How would you know they were foreign-owned?

0:59:21 > 0:59:22Right, is it a good idea?

0:59:22 > 0:59:30I think taking over any empty properties is a good idea.

0:59:30 > 0:59:33One of the problems in London that we have

0:59:33 > 0:59:35is that we have is we've got overseas buyers that

0:59:35 > 0:59:36are not present.

0:59:36 > 0:59:38They don't live in London.

0:59:38 > 0:59:41Sadiq Khan's report found almost no evidence homes bought by overseas

0:59:41 > 0:59:42buyers were left empty.

0:59:42 > 0:59:431% or less.

0:59:43 > 0:59:46I think any of us who live in London and are

0:59:46 > 0:59:48walking around London, we see the empty ghost towers.

0:59:48 > 0:59:52I'm not sure what report this is, or where he has

0:59:52 > 0:59:55got the figures, or what research they've done, but I know that

0:59:55 > 0:59:58when we walk around London there are ghost towers.

0:59:58 > 1:00:02There are towers that are with no lights switched on.

1:00:02 > 1:00:05I even know people whose jobs it is to go in and turn

1:00:05 > 1:00:06the lights on and off.

1:00:06 > 1:00:09I mean, what is the spectacle of those empty multi-million pound

1:00:09 > 1:00:11properties in buildings like the Shard, when the rates of

1:00:11 > 1:00:13homelessness are still incredibly high in London?

1:00:13 > 1:00:15It's the starving person pressing their face

1:00:15 > 1:00:17up against the window of the restaurant.

1:00:17 > 1:00:18It's cruel.

1:00:18 > 1:00:19Which is disgraceful.

1:00:19 > 1:00:26Right, but what should be done about it?

1:00:26 > 1:00:28Lena Jeger, when she was the MP in Camden, actually

1:00:28 > 1:00:30used what was called the acquired miscellaneous properties

1:00:30 > 1:00:33legislation, whereby they used to go and hammer things on the doors

1:00:33 > 1:00:35and say this property appears to be abandoned.

1:00:35 > 1:00:39In fact Camden had a huge amount of those.

1:00:39 > 1:00:40I'm not so much concerned about the ownership,

1:00:40 > 1:00:46I'm concerned about the occupation of the property.

1:00:46 > 1:00:48Walk through parts of Kensington, Chelsea, of a

1:00:48 > 1:00:50night-time, there are no lights on anywhere in there.

1:00:50 > 1:00:52If a property is kept empty quite clearly it's an

1:00:52 > 1:00:54investment.

1:00:54 > 1:00:57I spoke to a person the other day, a Chinese client, who was

1:00:57 > 1:01:00buying a flat I said who are you buying it for?

1:01:00 > 1:01:02She said I'm buying it for my son when he goes to

1:01:02 > 1:01:04university.

1:01:04 > 1:01:05I said how old is your son?

1:01:05 > 1:01:07She said he hasn't been born yet.

1:01:07 > 1:01:09On that note, that's all we have time for.

1:01:09 > 1:01:12Thank you very much and thanks to all of my guests.

1:01:16 > 1:01:23Welcome back. A few minutes ago we were talking about plans for

1:01:23 > 1:01:29renationalisation, something which they think is a good vote winning

1:01:29 > 1:01:35policy in these times. Are they right?Nationalisation had a boom in

1:01:35 > 1:01:40popularity. It never went out of favour. Since the bailouts of rail

1:01:40 > 1:01:43companies, since the appalling things which happen to people who

1:01:43 > 1:01:53have to get a train every day, never mind just the south-east, it has

1:01:53 > 1:02:01been a nightmare and costs are ratcheting up. Even the water

1:02:01 > 1:02:04companies are not opposing it. I think they are pushing at an open

1:02:04 > 1:02:11door and it is a worthwhile thing for them to do.John McDonnell says

1:02:11 > 1:02:16it can be done at absolutely no cost you would have an asset on your

1:02:16 > 1:02:24government books, is that realistic? No, that is the aspect of it. I can

1:02:24 > 1:02:32see the political logic. That is the aspect I find most confusing. This

1:02:32 > 1:02:35argument that Parliament rather than the market dictates the price at

1:02:35 > 1:02:40which the acids is bought, the signal is not just people who are in

1:02:40 > 1:02:44those industries, the signal list to all other investors in just about

1:02:44 > 1:02:49everything else. If you start with certain sectors, what will be

1:02:49 > 1:02:52nationalised next? The impact that then has on people who are investing

1:02:52 > 1:02:58money in the UK is simply a dawning realisation that what they have,

1:02:58 > 1:03:03what they own, what they paid for might be stolen or might be

1:03:03 > 1:03:07discounted.Labour were fairly clear in their manifesto, they talked

1:03:07 > 1:03:13about the National Grid, water, rail and the Royal Mail, nothing else.As

1:03:13 > 1:03:17someone who has been paying attention to what John McDonnell and

1:03:17 > 1:03:21Seamus Milne think, I will take their evidence of what they have

1:03:21 > 1:03:24written and said over the last 30 years rather than what they are

1:03:24 > 1:03:32trying to do now to win an election. I would not try and extrapolate what

1:03:32 > 1:03:37Labour policy would be over what she must have said, he has only been

1:03:37 > 1:03:42their communications guide for a few years, before that he was a Guardian

1:03:42 > 1:03:46columnist.I'm judging people on their record of what they have said

1:03:46 > 1:03:49to Andrew Marr, what they have written and what John McDonnell have

1:03:49 > 1:03:57argued for. I simply question whether we should accept their

1:03:57 > 1:04:01guarantees when they are trying to bargain their way into power.

1:04:01 > 1:04:06Listen, nobody, it is something which only happens to this lot of

1:04:06 > 1:04:10Labour leaders, that if people cannot critique the policy they

1:04:10 > 1:04:13suggest, then critique what they perceive to be the nefarious under

1:04:13 > 1:04:22policy. The truth is, when we talk about privatising industries we used

1:04:22 > 1:04:26to talk about that, we never talked about the outrageous bailouts they

1:04:26 > 1:04:29would need, we never talked about what they would do to actual costs,

1:04:29 > 1:04:35we just talked about this in terms of principle, do you want this

1:04:35 > 1:04:40privatised with efficiency or nationalised?There problems with

1:04:40 > 1:04:44some things that now Margaret Thatcher would not say that was the

1:04:44 > 1:04:48original intention. However, she and those around her were completely

1:04:48 > 1:04:53clear and explicit about that they were prepared to privatise almost

1:04:53 > 1:04:59everything. They were unambiguous. The fairest possible reading of the

1:04:59 > 1:05:04way Thatcher went about it is she did not know how bad it would be.

1:05:04 > 1:05:08She went into privatisation with the explicit agenda of more British

1:05:08 > 1:05:12people owning shares in industries and when she went into it, 40% of

1:05:12 > 1:05:18people own shares, 12 years later 12% did.We will need to leave it

1:05:18 > 1:05:20there and move on.

1:05:20 > 1:05:23The charity Oxfam has said it was "dismayed by what happened"

1:05:23 > 1:05:25after the accusations of sexual exploitation by its aid workers

1:05:25 > 1:05:28and now the government has said it's going to get tough.

1:05:28 > 1:05:31I'm going to afford them the opportunity to talk to me tomorrow,

1:05:31 > 1:05:35but I'm broke clear, it does not matter if you have got a

1:05:35 > 1:05:39whistle-blower hotline, it does not matter if you have got good

1:05:39 > 1:05:42safeguarding practices in place, if the moral leadership at the top of

1:05:42 > 1:05:48the organisation is not there, then we cannot have you as a partner.

1:05:48 > 1:05:51That was Penny Mordaunt talking specifically about Oxfam against

1:05:51 > 1:05:55whom there have been allegations this week. This could have

1:05:55 > 1:06:00implications for the aid sector generally?Yes, and that is what

1:06:00 > 1:06:04Penny Mordaunt said that donors would be put off by the likes of

1:06:04 > 1:06:14giving to Oxfam because they

1:06:14 > 1:06:16giving to Oxfam because they have no idea where their money is being used

1:06:16 > 1:06:19at the end of it. The thought that your good hard earned cash could be

1:06:19 > 1:06:21subsidising Oxfam executives sexual peccadilloes, at -- abusing the

1:06:21 > 1:06:33people they are supposed to be helping is not good. Penny Mordaunt

1:06:33 > 1:06:38said we should all have done more. Where this seems to be going as who

1:06:38 > 1:06:43knew what? Furthermore, who was happy to cover up what for the

1:06:43 > 1:06:47greater good? If you shine a spotlight on abuse will it kill off

1:06:47 > 1:06:51the Holborn I'm concept of international aid.Oxfam does a lot

1:06:51 > 1:06:55of good around the world.Huge amounts of good. Why would you want

1:06:55 > 1:07:00to kill off a productive good charity because of some horrendous

1:07:00 > 1:07:05abuse going on? The political damage for the government and we need to be

1:07:05 > 1:07:12very careful, there are parallels with for example the northern Asian

1:07:12 > 1:07:17sexual grooming scandal. How much was a blind eye turned to these

1:07:17 > 1:07:22politically sensitive subject so the greater good, for example racial

1:07:22 > 1:07:27harmony, was not damaged? That will be huge thing to unpick.Tom was

1:07:27 > 1:07:34talking about the damage of donors who donate to charities but defeat,

1:07:34 > 1:07:40the government, committed huge amount of

1:07:41 > 1:07:44amount of money -- DFID. Not everyone is happy about this. Will

1:07:44 > 1:07:48this be used as a debate about international aid?I think it is

1:07:48 > 1:07:56being used as a way to reopen debate. It should be remembered that

1:07:56 > 1:07:59sexual predators use organisations. They used boarding schools, the

1:07:59 > 1:08:05church and aid programmes. They use places with high vulnerability to

1:08:05 > 1:08:09the sexual predators. Notably says let's close down the church. It is

1:08:09 > 1:08:15mistaken to say this is a taint on the entire aid industry when the aid

1:08:15 > 1:08:19industry by its nature would attract some predatory behaviour. It is much

1:08:19 > 1:08:22more important to have the conversation about how

1:08:22 > 1:08:26institutionally you prevent and deal with the predatory behaviour rather

1:08:26 > 1:08:30than turn a spotlight on the aid industry than they should we have

1:08:30 > 1:08:35any aid which is the wrong question and has a completely obvious answer,

1:08:35 > 1:08:39yes we should.But if that is right, if we extend that level of

1:08:39 > 1:08:45understanding to Oxfam because it does

1:08:45 > 1:08:48does good work, why is that not extended to the controversial

1:08:48 > 1:08:50Presidents club a few weeks ago which is now effectively shutdown

1:08:50 > 1:08:55and people have given the money back?Iain, the Presidents club,

1:08:55 > 1:08:59there are people in Oxfam who are not using sex workers unlike the

1:08:59 > 1:09:04Presidents club.There were people at that dinner who were not engaged

1:09:04 > 1:09:08in the activity that the FDA accused a few people.But they were all

1:09:08 > 1:09:18sitting there in an all male dinner -- the FT accused people.I am not

1:09:18 > 1:09:22defending people.We cannot finish the programme without returning to

1:09:22 > 1:09:28the topic we are always talking about and we have always been

1:09:28 > 1:09:35talking about, Brexit.

1:09:35 > 1:09:38talking about, Brexit. We will hear from some other Cabinet ministers.

1:09:38 > 1:09:43Explain the choreography of the talks.The government have come

1:09:43 > 1:09:50under pressure for not saying enough about the decisions. Boris Johnson

1:09:50 > 1:09:54made it clear he would make his own speech on the case for a liberal

1:09:54 > 1:10:00Brexit, whatever that ends up meaning. Now we learn today that it

1:10:00 > 1:10:05will not just be Boris, it will be a whole is of other Cabinet ministers

1:10:05 > 1:10:09making a useful contribution in terms of speeches, David Davis,

1:10:09 > 1:10:13David Liddington, Liam Fox and Theresa May finally at the end of

1:10:13 > 1:10:20this long list.Not Philip Hammond or any of the arch Remainers?They

1:10:20 > 1:10:24don't do Brexit central jobs. You expect the Brexit ministers

1:10:24 > 1:10:29themselves to do that.I do not agree with that at all.What is

1:10:29 > 1:10:35interesting is, were they always going to do this or has the entirety

1:10:35 > 1:10:38of government, now the dog is being whacked by the tail, just to make

1:10:38 > 1:10:47Boris Johnson... They have to give him great cover by surrounding him

1:10:47 > 1:10:53by others also making speeches.What a shocking waste of parliamentary

1:10:53 > 1:10:59time this is?At least we are hearing from someone.The pattern

1:10:59 > 1:11:03with speech-making is somebody comes out and says something and then

1:11:03 > 1:11:07Number Ten immediately slapped them down. You cannot listen to the thing

1:11:07 > 1:11:10you think you are listening to because you have no idea whether it

1:11:10 > 1:11:15will be contradicted the day after. Like Philip Hammond in Davos where

1:11:15 > 1:11:19he said we would only diverged moderately from the EU and then

1:11:19 > 1:11:25Number Ten contradicted him.And the idea that Philip Hammond is not a

1:11:25 > 1:11:28key Brexit Minister, the impact of this is predominantly economic and

1:11:28 > 1:11:32he is the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Of course he is a Brexit

1:11:32 > 1:11:36Minister.They are quite worried about the Remainers and they are

1:11:36 > 1:11:39really worried about Jacob Rees-Mogg and the hard Brexit faction who

1:11:39 > 1:11:45could really bring down the Prime Minister tomorrow if they wanted to.

1:11:45 > 1:11:48And at some point, when the Prime Minister fleshes out in a little bit

1:11:48 > 1:11:56more detail her vision, she cannot keep Anna Soubry and Jacob Rees-Mogg

1:11:56 > 1:11:58happy. Both of them have been vocal this week and then the serious

1:11:58 > 1:12:03problem in the Tory party?Someone will have to compromise at some

1:12:03 > 1:12:07point. The hardest Brexiteers have to get real and they have to realise

1:12:07 > 1:12:11they have most of what they wanted. If you said almost two years ago

1:12:11 > 1:12:15that the UK would definitely be leaving all the key institutions of

1:12:15 > 1:12:19the EU, definitely be leaving the single market, definitely be leaving

1:12:19 > 1:12:22the customs union with a grey area at around the customs agreement,

1:12:22 > 1:12:28that is something that I think a lot of pro-Brexit people have accepted

1:12:28 > 1:12:34and pocketed as a good result.But the Jacob Rees-Mogg faction of the

1:12:34 > 1:12:37party sound very unhappy about the direction of travel and they are

1:12:37 > 1:12:41complaining about all sorts of things?But what is difficult to

1:12:41 > 1:12:45work out is how much of that is people positioning to shift the

1:12:45 > 1:12:53argument within Cabinet, outliers for an argument, so there is not too

1:12:53 > 1:12:57much of a compromise. It is really all a function of there not being

1:12:57 > 1:13:03leadership and they're not being someone in charge of the process.

1:13:03 > 1:13:10This is going to have to be, we have to confront this as a country at

1:13:10 > 1:13:14some point and make a decision and get on with it one way or another.

1:13:14 > 1:13:20Well when they do, I am sure you will be here to talk about it.

1:13:20 > 1:13:21That's all for today.

1:13:21 > 1:13:23Parliament's now on recess so I'm afraid there's no

1:13:23 > 1:13:26Daily or Sunday Politics next week, however, do join me again a week

1:13:26 > 1:13:28on Sunday at 11 here on BBC One.

1:13:28 > 1:13:36Until then, bye-bye.