04/03/2018

0:00:39 > 0:00:41Morning, everyone, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

0:00:41 > 0:00:42I'm Sarah Smith.

0:00:42 > 0:00:44And this is the programme that will provide your essential briefing

0:00:44 > 0:00:46on everything that's moving and shaking in the

0:00:46 > 0:00:48world of politics.

0:00:48 > 0:00:54Theresa May's big Brexit speech appears to have done the impossible

0:00:54 > 0:00:56and united both sides of her party for the time being

0:00:56 > 0:00:58but is the devil in the detail?

0:00:58 > 0:01:02We'll get the verdicts of former Tory leader and Brexit supporter

0:01:02 > 0:01:06Lord Howard and leading backbencher and Remain campaigner Nicky Morgan,

0:01:06 > 0:01:09and ask if they can really both be happy.

0:01:09 > 0:01:15Away from Brexit, the Government yet again promises to take on the Nimbys

0:01:15 > 0:01:17and build more houses where we need them most.

0:01:17 > 0:01:19We'll go through the proposals in detail.

0:01:19 > 0:01:22In London, with 1 million EU citizens eligible to vote,

0:01:22 > 0:01:24will the local elections in the capital become

0:01:24 > 0:01:30a referendum on Brexit?

0:01:34 > 0:01:39All that coming up in the programme.

0:01:39 > 0:01:44And with me today, I've got three hardy souls who've struggled

0:01:44 > 0:01:46through the harsh conditions to help me to make sense of all

0:01:46 > 0:01:49the big stories - Isabel Oakeshott, Steve Richards and Anushka Asthana.

0:01:49 > 0:01:52Well, it was as week where politics was often given second billing

0:01:52 > 0:01:55to the weather, with people up and down the country battling

0:01:55 > 0:01:56the Beast from the East.

0:01:56 > 0:01:59But snow or not, Theresa May had her crucial Brexit speech to give,

0:01:59 > 0:02:07and she had a few big beasts herself to contend with.

0:02:09 > 0:02:13Forget the weather, the UK faced a Brexit blizzard this week.

0:02:13 > 0:02:16On Monday, Jeremy Corbyn offered up a clear dividing line between Labour

0:02:16 > 0:02:17and the Conservatives.

0:02:17 > 0:02:25Labour would keep Britain in a customs union with the EU.

0:02:26 > 0:02:28Labour would seek to negotiate a new, comprehensive UK EU customs

0:02:28 > 0:02:31union to ensure there are no tariffs with Europe.

0:02:31 > 0:02:33On Tuesday, international trade secretary Liam Fox

0:02:33 > 0:02:34immediately hit back.

0:02:34 > 0:02:36It would be a complete sell-out of Britain's national interest

0:02:36 > 0:02:41and a betrayal of the voters in the referendum.

0:02:41 > 0:02:46But his speech was overshadowed by a warning shot from the former

0:02:46 > 0:02:48boss of his own department - Sir Martin Donnelly said leaving

0:02:48 > 0:02:51the single market and the customs union would risk the UK

0:02:51 > 0:02:52going from feast to famine.

0:02:52 > 0:02:56It's like giving up a three course meal for a packet of crisps.

0:02:56 > 0:02:59Also on Tuesday, Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson took to the radio

0:02:59 > 0:03:03waves to try to ease tensions on Northern Ireland after Brexit.

0:03:03 > 0:03:05He wasn't entirely persuasive.

0:03:05 > 0:03:08There's no border between Camden and Westminster.

0:03:08 > 0:03:12You can't compare two boroughs of London with the kind

0:03:12 > 0:03:15of difference in the arrangements that would be in place after Brexit

0:03:15 > 0:03:17between the UK and the EU.

0:03:17 > 0:03:21I think it's a very relevant comparison.

0:03:21 > 0:03:23On Wednesday, former Prime Minister Sir John Major said

0:03:23 > 0:03:27MPs should be given a free vote on the final Brexit deal.

0:03:27 > 0:03:35So let Parliament decide or put the issue back to the people.

0:03:37 > 0:03:40And the EU Commission published the first legal draft

0:03:40 > 0:03:41of the UK's exit treaty.

0:03:41 > 0:03:42The proposals were controversial.

0:03:42 > 0:03:44To avoid a hard border, Northern Ireland must stay

0:03:44 > 0:03:47in the customs union if all else fails.

0:03:47 > 0:03:51Theresa May was having none of it.

0:03:51 > 0:03:56No UK Prime Minister could ever agree to it.

0:03:56 > 0:03:59On Thursday, diplomatic niceties with the European Council

0:03:59 > 0:04:02President Donald Tusk, as he got a preview of the Prime

0:04:02 > 0:04:06Minister's big Brexit speech.

0:04:06 > 0:04:10But the real test would come later, when she would need a lot

0:04:10 > 0:04:15of grit to keep all members of her own party onside.

0:04:15 > 0:04:17The big day arrived, and with it some hard truths.

0:04:17 > 0:04:18We are leaving the single market.

0:04:18 > 0:04:20Life is going to be different.

0:04:20 > 0:04:23In certain ways, our access to each other's markets will be

0:04:23 > 0:04:24less than it is now.

0:04:24 > 0:04:26Even after we have left the jurisdiction

0:04:26 > 0:04:29of the European Court of Justice, EU law and the decisions of the ECJ

0:04:29 > 0:04:34will continue to affect us.

0:04:34 > 0:04:37This was also a pitch for a pick and mix Brexit.

0:04:37 > 0:04:40She said all EU trade deals are tailor-made and what Britain

0:04:40 > 0:04:42wants is no different.

0:04:42 > 0:04:44If this is cherry picking, then every trade arrangement

0:04:44 > 0:04:48is cherry picking.

0:04:48 > 0:04:51He was happy, and so was he.

0:04:51 > 0:04:55Despite being stranded and left out in the cold.

0:04:55 > 0:04:58So, has the Prime Minister managed to thaw the tensions

0:04:58 > 0:04:59between her Cabinet on Brexit?

0:04:59 > 0:05:05Time will tell.

0:05:05 > 0:05:10There is more than enough to chew over with our expert panel who will

0:05:10 > 0:05:17tell us what's been going on behind the scenes this week. Anushka, we

0:05:17 > 0:05:21asked the question, has she achieved the impossible and United warring

0:05:21 > 0:05:27factions of the Conservative Party over Brexit? It looks that way, will

0:05:27 > 0:05:32it stay that way?It is impressive politically that your guests will

0:05:32 > 0:05:35both have some praise for the speech but it doesn't mean they agree with

0:05:35 > 0:05:39each other when it comes to Brexit. I'm sure there's a lot they continue

0:05:39 > 0:05:44to disagree about. She managed to do that by doubling down on the red

0:05:44 > 0:05:48lines she already had but saying beyond that we will try to get as

0:05:48 > 0:05:53close as we can to the EU. I don't think the Brexiteers are totally

0:05:53 > 0:05:58happy, they see this as a staging post and happy that what she said

0:05:58 > 0:06:03future parliaments can change it. She has done a magic trick now but

0:06:03 > 0:06:07trouble ahead still.Isabel, a lot of it was how in the immediate

0:06:07 > 0:06:13future we will stay tangibly similar to EU rules and regulations, that

0:06:13 > 0:06:18won't hold with the Brexiteer crowd, will it?Only an idiot would predict

0:06:18 > 0:06:26peace and harmony within the Tory party for more than a few days.

0:06:29 > 0:06:32party for more than a few days. I think they recognise the immense

0:06:32 > 0:06:35discipline the Prime Minister injected into the speech, in some

0:06:35 > 0:06:39ways that means bits of it don't please everybody. There was

0:06:39 > 0:06:43frustration at the way she handled some of the questions afterwards.

0:06:43 > 0:06:48Some would have liked her, for example Nigel Farage, outside of the

0:06:48 > 0:06:52party of course, would have liked her to be more explicit that no deal

0:06:52 > 0:06:57remains an option. On the other hand, had she said that, that is

0:06:57 > 0:07:03provocative. I think Tory MPs found she struck a balance and a great

0:07:03 > 0:07:09feeling of positivity this weekend, maybe not next.Steve, did it tell

0:07:09 > 0:07:14us a huge amount about what Brexit deal might look like? Or is Theresa

0:07:14 > 0:07:19May sitting on the fence about what the future deal will be?I don't

0:07:19 > 0:07:24think she is sitting on the fence. She gave a clear idea of what she

0:07:24 > 0:07:29envisages it to be. Watching it, and reading it several times, I have

0:07:29 > 0:07:33reached the conclusion that she is the only person that can lead this

0:07:33 > 0:07:43party.

0:07:44 > 0:07:47You have Michael Howard on in a minute, you knows how difficult it

0:07:47 > 0:07:50is to do. She can do it and I think they would be daft to get rid of

0:07:50 > 0:07:52her. However, having read the speech, it is full of unexploded

0:07:52 > 0:07:55bombs metaphorically speaking. Like the budgets that go down well on the

0:07:55 > 0:08:00day and then turn out to have hidden bombs, I think this one does. In her

0:08:00 > 0:08:04admission we are giving up things, we won't have the same market

0:08:04 > 0:08:08access, in saying we have given up passporting for the financial

0:08:08 > 0:08:13services already. She did it to show we weren't having our cake and

0:08:13 > 0:08:18eating it, she was honest, but it is depressing to have that candour

0:08:18 > 0:08:22explained so clearly. And in explaining we will be fully aligned

0:08:22 > 0:08:29with the EU in many ways but have the right to diverged even if it is

0:08:29 > 0:08:33against our interest. And the all of this, to have the right to diverge

0:08:33 > 0:08:38at a future date seems fraught with difficulty. I see problems down

0:08:38 > 0:08:45road.Steve's point about only this Prime Minister can lead the party is

0:08:45 > 0:08:48a very astute one and that's what I'm picking up this weekend, even

0:08:48 > 0:08:54from those who have been her harshest critics, at her ability not

0:08:54 > 0:08:57to say too much which makes her seem rather boring at times is precisely

0:08:57 > 0:09:03the reason she can manage these delicate factions. I definitely feel

0:09:03 > 0:09:07time has run out now for those who would like to have seen her gone

0:09:07 > 0:09:13well before Brexit next year. I feel that has evaporated milk. We might

0:09:13 > 0:09:18be in a different place in a few months but I would suspect not.

0:09:18 > 0:09:23Anushka bitchy answer the question about the border between the

0:09:23 > 0:09:31Republic and Northern Ireland? Simon Coveney said he's not sure the EU

0:09:31 > 0:09:34can support the plan she came up with.Both sides can smile and say

0:09:34 > 0:09:39they don't want a border, the question is how you achieve that.

0:09:39 > 0:09:43The Government have put forward these options, a customs partnership

0:09:43 > 0:09:48which is a slightly weird system under which there would be checks on

0:09:48 > 0:09:51the UK border that would then be acceptable for the rest of the EU.

0:09:51 > 0:09:56The problem is the rest of the EU have suggested that won't be

0:09:56 > 0:09:59acceptable to them, and even very senior figures in Government around

0:09:59 > 0:10:04the Cabinet table have told me they think it is a completely unrealistic

0:10:04 > 0:10:09option. The second option is to use technology to make it flow freely,

0:10:09 > 0:10:16perhaps not quite as Boris

0:10:16 > 0:10:17perhaps not quite as Boris Johnson was suggesting, it happens in the

0:10:17 > 0:10:19congestion charge in London. He was slightly mocked for those comments,

0:10:19 > 0:10:23but can there be a way to make it softer in that way? Perhaps there

0:10:23 > 0:10:27can but there is no evidence you would end up with no border. Then

0:10:27 > 0:10:31there's that tricky situation of the EU saying the backstop is Northern

0:10:31 > 0:10:36Ireland stays in the customs union, and the Prime Minister says that is

0:10:36 > 0:10:41unacceptable.Thank you for that, stay with us.

0:10:41 > 0:10:43Theresa May was on the Andrew Marr Show this

0:10:43 > 0:10:46morning, and she was asked how the UK's rules and regulations

0:10:46 > 0:10:48might move away from the EU's in the future.

0:10:48 > 0:10:56Parliament will be able to take decisions about the rules that

0:11:00 > 0:11:02are set, so in the circumstances in which the EU

0:11:02 > 0:11:04change a particular rule, there'd be a decision

0:11:04 > 0:11:05for us to take.

0:11:05 > 0:11:08Did we accept it in the future or not?

0:11:08 > 0:11:10But if we didn't accept it, there'd be an arbitration mechanism,

0:11:10 > 0:11:11an independent arbitration mechanism, so people

0:11:11 > 0:11:14would look at it and say, actually, you know what,

0:11:14 > 0:11:16if the UK doesn't accept that, does it make any difference

0:11:16 > 0:11:17to the trading relationship?

0:11:17 > 0:11:20And they might say no, it doesn't, so there's no consequence.

0:11:20 > 0:11:23They might say yes, it does, and so there would be a consequence.

0:11:23 > 0:11:25So you're saying we might lose market access -

0:11:25 > 0:11:27the more we diverge, the more market access

0:11:27 > 0:11:28we might lose in the future.

0:11:28 > 0:11:30There'd be a decision to be taken.

0:11:30 > 0:11:32Joining me now from Loughborough is the former

0:11:32 > 0:11:35Education Secretary Nicky Morgan, who put her name down on a Commons

0:11:35 > 0:11:38amendment that calls for the UK to participate in a customs union

0:11:38 > 0:11:40with the EU after Brexit.

0:11:40 > 0:11:48Good morning. So you heard the Prime Minister ruling out a customs union

0:11:48 > 0:11:53which is what you say you want, and they will be less access to EU

0:11:53 > 0:11:58markets in future, you cannot be very happy with this speech, can

0:11:58 > 0:12:02you?I thought it was a very realistic speech that set out the

0:12:02 > 0:12:07compromises and hard facts we have to face, and I think it was a

0:12:07 > 0:12:10welcome dose of realism. That's why I think it has been welcomed from

0:12:10 > 0:12:13people on all sides of the debate because we can get away from

0:12:13 > 0:12:17pretending things will stay the same, that we can have the same

0:12:17 > 0:12:21benefits, and be honest with ourselves and our constituents about

0:12:21 > 0:12:30what that means. The reason MPs put down amendments is to get ministers

0:12:30 > 0:12:34to explain their position is more fully and that's what we began to

0:12:34 > 0:12:39see in the Prime Minister's speech on this issue of the border between

0:12:39 > 0:12:42Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland on Friday. The Prime

0:12:42 > 0:12:46Minister could not have been more clear this morning and last week

0:12:46 > 0:12:50that she does not want to see a hard border between them, and that's

0:12:50 > 0:12:55where we are as well. I think there are more discussions to come about

0:12:55 > 0:13:01the two options, as Anushka was setting out, that the Prime Minister

0:13:01 > 0:13:04outlined, and we will have to see what happens when the bill comes

0:13:04 > 0:13:07back to the House of Commons.Your amendment wasn't just about Northern

0:13:07 > 0:13:12Ireland, it said you want the UK to stay in the customs union with the

0:13:12 > 0:13:17EU. Now you say you want to talk to the Prime Minister about this. Talk

0:13:17 > 0:13:22about what? We are either in the customs union or knots and her

0:13:22 > 0:13:28speech made it clear she didn't want a customs union.I can speak for

0:13:28 > 0:13:32myself and my colleagues, many of whom put their name down, it was

0:13:32 > 0:13:36about the Irish border issue because many of us got to the stage of

0:13:36 > 0:13:41thinking how can this be resolved without being in a customs union. I

0:13:41 > 0:13:45think many of us don't care what it is called, it's a question of what

0:13:45 > 0:13:51it does. Does it avoid a hard border and small traders having to make

0:13:51 > 0:13:58declarations each time they crossed the border? I was a Treasury duties

0:13:58 > 0:14:01minister, I visited the Irish border and it is 300 miles of incredibly

0:14:01 > 0:14:06porous countryside basically. People are crossing it everyday for work,

0:14:06 > 0:14:10for trading, and it's not just about the economics, it's about the

0:14:10 > 0:14:20cultural and political significance of not a hard border.The Irish

0:14:20 > 0:14:22government and Irish Foreign Minister Simon Coveney were saying

0:14:22 > 0:14:26this morning he didn't think EU would accept this. Theresa May said

0:14:26 > 0:14:29a long she doesn't want a hard border, just saying that doesn't

0:14:29 > 0:14:34mean it won't happen and the EU don't seem satisfied with what she

0:14:34 > 0:14:40laid out as a possible solution.The first point is, as I said in a tweet

0:14:40 > 0:14:44on Friday, the EU cannot say and Simon Coveney recognise that this

0:14:44 > 0:14:49morning, the EU cannot say it doesn't know what the UK Government

0:14:49 > 0:14:56wants. Simon Coveney also agreed, as the Prime Minister rightly set out,

0:14:56 > 0:14:59this is a problem that has been created by Brexit and it's up to the

0:14:59 > 0:15:03UK Government, the EU and Irish government to work together to find

0:15:03 > 0:15:06a solution. I think it is right that talks will continue in one of those

0:15:06 > 0:15:11areas where it is best for the Irish government and UK Government to be

0:15:11 > 0:15:15talking directly because at the moment what's been remarkable is how

0:15:15 > 0:15:18cohesive the 27 have been in negotiating through the commission

0:15:18 > 0:15:26but there may be ways to speed up discussions, particularly on the

0:15:26 > 0:15:29Irish border issue. What we saw on Friday is the Prime Minister saying

0:15:29 > 0:15:32there's difficult things ahead. People won't remember ultimately the

0:15:32 > 0:15:36negotiations, they will remember the enduring deal that's struck, that

0:15:36 > 0:15:42puts livelihoods and economic security first.

0:15:42 > 0:15:46One of the hard fact is that she laid out is we will have less access

0:15:46 > 0:15:50to EU markets. That is one of the things that you as a Remainer have

0:15:50 > 0:15:54been worried about. Maybe she is being pragmatic and you're welcome

0:15:54 > 0:15:57that, but is that pragmatism not admitting were going to be worse off

0:15:57 > 0:16:04in future as a result of this?I think it probably is. Actually,

0:16:04 > 0:16:09while the speech was well come in its towns, it did set out some of

0:16:09 > 0:16:12these hard truths. Some people have said, nothing will change, it will

0:16:12 > 0:16:17have exactly the same benefits but that is not the case. I am chair of

0:16:17 > 0:16:22the Treasury Select Committee, we look at financial services. That

0:16:22 > 0:16:26industry understands that things are going to change. The Prime Minister

0:16:26 > 0:16:31was clear, no more passporting. People have reconciled themselves to

0:16:31 > 0:16:35this in the city. What next? The Prime Minister is talking about

0:16:35 > 0:16:41mutual recognition of regulations, that is the way to go, that is

0:16:41 > 0:16:44achievable, but this is the start of negotiations and it is a long way to

0:16:44 > 0:16:49go. At least we are now on the starting blocks. Your right to say

0:16:49 > 0:16:54that many of us have been concerned about the prosperity and livelihoods

0:16:54 > 0:16:58of people in our constituencies and our businesses. We welcome this

0:16:58 > 0:17:02speech but we will continue to watch out for any drifting backwards

0:17:02 > 0:17:07towards some kind of idea logically driven hard Brexit. That does not

0:17:07 > 0:17:12benefit anybody. As the Prime Minister said on Friday, reverting

0:17:12 > 0:17:18to WTO is not a good outcome that will benefit people in this country.

0:17:18 > 0:17:21The Prime Minister made clear that the UK after Brexit can choose to

0:17:21 > 0:17:24stay aligned with the rules and regulations of the EU or future

0:17:24 > 0:17:29parliaments to choose to diverged. In those circumstances you will be

0:17:29 > 0:17:33fighting every step of the week to try to stay aligned with the EU, I

0:17:33 > 0:17:39take it?Not necessarily. That was a really well come statement from the

0:17:39 > 0:17:42Prime Minister. It is for the sovereign parliament to be making

0:17:42 > 0:17:46these decisions in future, which is why we had the debate over the

0:17:46 > 0:17:50amendment in December because ultimately it should be sovereign

0:17:50 > 0:17:55Parliament that makes these key decisions in the future. In terms of

0:17:55 > 0:17:58divergences regulation, there may well be good arguments in the future

0:17:58 > 0:18:03by businesses and industry say, we do not need to be aligned with that

0:18:03 > 0:18:06regulation, because there is a higher international standard that

0:18:06 > 0:18:10we can all get around and following that will benefit our businesses.

0:18:10 > 0:18:15The point is, at the moment, Parliament will take decisions about

0:18:15 > 0:18:20things on the basis of listening to constituents, and that is what will

0:18:20 > 0:18:24happen in the future. That is welcome. Financial services, that is

0:18:24 > 0:18:28the message we're getting by, there are some international standards,

0:18:28 > 0:18:32which is what business already comply with, higher standards than

0:18:32 > 0:18:37the EU, and that is what businesses want to on complying with.Nicky

0:18:37 > 0:18:40Morgan, thank you for talking to us.

0:18:40 > 0:18:42Listening to that is the former Conservative leader Lord Howard,

0:18:42 > 0:18:44who campaigned for Britain to leave the EU.

0:18:44 > 0:18:48You were nodding away in agreement with Nicky Morgan all the way

0:18:48 > 0:18:51through that interview. Not something we thought we were going

0:18:51 > 0:18:55to see happen in the studio.You agree with her? I agree with very

0:18:55 > 0:18:59much of what she said and I am delighted to be able to agree with

0:18:59 > 0:19:03her. Can I just say this about the speech on Friday, I thought it

0:19:03 > 0:19:09should the Prime Minister at her best, cam, patient, disciplined.

0:19:09 > 0:19:15That is exactly the kind of approach we need in these negotiations. I

0:19:15 > 0:19:19think Steve Richards was right when he said she is the only person who

0:19:19 > 0:19:23can lead the country through these negotiations, and she showed her

0:19:23 > 0:19:30qualities on Friday, and I think it was an excellent speech, and it is

0:19:30 > 0:19:33something, of course it is a good thing from my point of view that it

0:19:33 > 0:19:37seems to have united the Conservative Party, but more

0:19:37 > 0:19:42importantly, I think it has united the country. I think everyone in the

0:19:42 > 0:19:46country, except perhaps those few people are neither extreme, can

0:19:46 > 0:19:53rally round. People like John Major and Tony Blair? I fear that on this

0:19:53 > 0:19:56issue John Major and Tony Blair are to make love the people who have

0:19:56 > 0:20:00never been able to reconcile themselves to the results of the

0:20:00 > 0:20:05referendum. I think a large majority of people in the country, even of

0:20:05 > 0:20:10those who voted Remain, they now say, let's get on with it and see

0:20:10 > 0:20:14what we can get out of these negotiations. Nicky Morgan was

0:20:14 > 0:20:18absolutely right when she said that in years to come people will not be

0:20:18 > 0:20:22looking back at the negotiations. They will be looking back at the

0:20:22 > 0:20:26outcome.The negotiations matter because they determine the outcome.

0:20:26 > 0:20:31You like the tone of the speech. When you look at the detail, does it

0:20:31 > 0:20:34really amounted taking back control when the Prime Minister says the UK

0:20:34 > 0:20:38will need to make a strong commitment that regulatory standards

0:20:38 > 0:20:42will remain as high as the EU and in practice they will remain similar in

0:20:42 > 0:20:47the future?That is not what you campaign for. In many respects they

0:20:47 > 0:20:50will be similar. As the Prime Minister said this morning, on the

0:20:50 > 0:20:55Andrew Marr programme, these regulations are not EU regulations,

0:20:55 > 0:21:02the international regulations. The crucial thing is that our sovereign

0:21:02 > 0:21:05parliament, in future, will be able to decide whether we remain in a

0:21:05 > 0:21:11layman, which in many cases would be a sensible thing to do, or whether

0:21:11 > 0:21:15we diverged, which could also be sensible. That is what taking back

0:21:15 > 0:21:19control means.The sovereign parliament will decide. Look at

0:21:19 > 0:21:23where we do remain in alignment and a hard fact that Theresa May picked

0:21:23 > 0:21:27out there, in order to maintain access we may have to maintain a

0:21:27 > 0:21:31layman. The EU will change their rules over the next few deals --

0:21:31 > 0:21:35over the next few years. We will end up having to mirror rules that we

0:21:35 > 0:21:40had no say at all in making if we want to maintain access.That is not

0:21:40 > 0:21:46control. We will be able to decide. In some cases it may be sensible to

0:21:46 > 0:21:49change rules to remain in alignment with the European Union's rules but

0:21:49 > 0:21:55in other cases it will not be, and we will be able to decide. That is

0:21:55 > 0:21:59what taking back control means. You're perfectly happy with

0:21:59 > 0:22:04associated membership of some of the EU agencies, medicine, chemicals,

0:22:04 > 0:22:12the aviation safety agency, and with paying a fee to be -- to be a

0:22:12 > 0:22:16member. Very sensible. A year ago you would not have been telling us

0:22:16 > 0:22:22that you wanted to stay a member of any of these agents is a tall.You

0:22:22 > 0:22:25never ask me. You would have been surprised by the answer. These are

0:22:25 > 0:22:29sensible, practical arrangements that we benefit from, and the EU

0:22:29 > 0:22:34benefits.It is sensible. We were promised famously by David Davis

0:22:34 > 0:22:38that we would have the exact same benefits of being in the customs

0:22:38 > 0:22:43union and the single market after Brexit. The Prime Minister herself

0:22:43 > 0:22:48said something similar. Now she's telling us we will have less access.

0:22:48 > 0:22:52When people were told we could leave the EU and maintain the same

0:22:52 > 0:22:56benefits, were they being lied to? Not at all. I think it is a

0:22:56 > 0:23:00consequence of what the Prime Minister has said, that in all

0:23:00 > 0:23:04important respects, we will have the access we need. There may be some

0:23:04 > 0:23:08areas where that will not be the case, but she dealt with the most

0:23:08 > 0:23:11important aspect in her speech on Friday and should have in the most

0:23:11 > 0:23:17important areas we will be able to have access. I think that will be

0:23:17 > 0:23:20the outcome. It is in the interests of the European Union as well as

0:23:20 > 0:23:25ourselves that that should be so. They want access to our large

0:23:25 > 0:23:29market. We are one of the six biggest economies in the world. They

0:23:29 > 0:23:33want access to our markets. It will be on both our interest to reach

0:23:33 > 0:23:37that sort of agreement.Both wings of the Tory party might be happy

0:23:37 > 0:23:42with this. The speech was received less enthusiastically in Brussels.

0:23:42 > 0:23:46The EU will publish their draft guidelines on how they see a future

0:23:46 > 0:23:50deal on Tuesday. If they do not accept the approach that Theresa May

0:23:50 > 0:23:55has laid out, what should she do next?Let's concentrate on the

0:23:55 > 0:24:00positives. We are in a negotiation. There will inevitably be posturing

0:24:00 > 0:24:04by the European Union in the course of these negotiations. That is what

0:24:04 > 0:24:09negotiations always bring with them. But I think, as I say, it is in both

0:24:09 > 0:24:14our interest that we should have a good deal. At the end of the day,

0:24:14 > 0:24:19they want our money. They will not get our money unless there is a good

0:24:19 > 0:24:24deal.It has been said that a trade deal cannot be said by putting up a

0:24:24 > 0:24:27few extra cherries in the Brexit cake. This speech did not persuade

0:24:27 > 0:24:33him that is a deal to be done.He is not in charge of the negotiations.

0:24:33 > 0:24:40Michel Barnier did not seem terribly impressed. Are they going to accept

0:24:40 > 0:24:42the Prime Minister's view that you can accept different access for

0:24:42 > 0:24:47different sectors?Let's wait and see. Michel Barnier welcome the

0:24:47 > 0:24:52speech. There is lots of posturing. It is invading tress and hours to

0:24:52 > 0:24:56arrive at a deal that is very similar to that which the Prime

0:24:56 > 0:25:01Minister set on Friday.You're being very positive about with the EU is

0:25:01 > 0:25:06likely to do. They may well not do that. Is there a point at which the

0:25:06 > 0:25:10Prime Minister may be forced to walk away because they will not meet

0:25:10 > 0:25:15halfway?I hope not but if you go into any negotiations in, I want to

0:25:15 > 0:25:21deal at any price, you will be taken to the cleaners. That is true of

0:25:21 > 0:25:25every negotiation. I agree with the Prime Minister when she says that in

0:25:25 > 0:25:28the ultimate circumstance, no deal is better than a bad deal, but I do

0:25:28 > 0:25:32not think we're going to have a bad deal, I think we're going to have a

0:25:32 > 0:25:35deal along the lines the Prime Minister set out on Friday.She said

0:25:35 > 0:25:42we are going to have to compromise and we are not

0:25:42 > 0:25:45and we are not going to get what we want. We will have to meet someone

0:25:45 > 0:25:49in the middle on this and the response from the EU has not been to

0:25:49 > 0:25:51say, we agree, let's talk about compromise, it has to -- it has been

0:25:51 > 0:25:55to maintain a lot of their hard lines about cherry picking.That

0:25:55 > 0:25:57will change. Their approach to the negotiations on the first stage

0:25:57 > 0:26:02changed. All sorts of figures were bandied about about the money we

0:26:02 > 0:26:07would have to pay and they bore no reality to the ultimate outcome. You

0:26:07 > 0:26:09have to take these initial negotiating positions with a pinch

0:26:09 > 0:26:17of salt.When the EU was negotiating with Greece during its financial

0:26:17 > 0:26:19crisis, they were absolutely insistent, they did not soften their

0:26:19 > 0:26:27lines.No disrespect to Greece, but we are not Greece. The European

0:26:27 > 0:26:32Union needs access to our markets. The European Union needs our money.

0:26:32 > 0:26:36The situation is very, very different from that which happened

0:26:36 > 0:26:40between the EU and Greece.Lord Howard, thank you for talking to us

0:26:40 > 0:26:43this morning.

0:26:43 > 0:26:46As we've heard, Jeremy Corbyn made his own big speech on Brexit

0:26:46 > 0:26:48earlier in the week and he backed a customs union.

0:26:48 > 0:26:49So how would it work?

0:26:49 > 0:26:51With me from Salford is the Shadow Communities

0:26:51 > 0:26:52Secretary, Andrew Gwynne.

0:26:52 > 0:26:57Thank you very much for coming in to speak to us today. We have got to

0:26:57 > 0:27:00make a very different approaches. Jeremy Corbyn at the beginning of

0:27:00 > 0:27:06the week saying he wanted to stay in a customs union, Theresa May on

0:27:06 > 0:27:11Friday pretty much ruling it out. Is it not Theresa May who is being

0:27:11 > 0:27:15honest with the voters by laying out the hard fact, as she puts it, that

0:27:15 > 0:27:20we will have to accept we have less access to the EU market?Absolutely

0:27:20 > 0:27:25not. That we are leaving the European Union is decided. We had a

0:27:25 > 0:27:29referendum, but the Thames by which we leave the European Union is what

0:27:29 > 0:27:32the negotiations are all about and the Labour Party has always said it

0:27:32 > 0:27:37would seek to maintain the benefits of a customs union. In doing that,

0:27:37 > 0:27:41we have set out our proposals for what we think that new arrangement

0:27:41 > 0:27:48should be, I bespoke agreement between the EU in the UK that would

0:27:48 > 0:27:51maintain the benefits of tariff free trade between the UK and the

0:27:51 > 0:27:56European Union going forward. But one in which we are equal partners,

0:27:56 > 0:28:02so we have a say on those new trade deals that are being made and a half

0:28:02 > 0:28:07of the new arrangements between our two trading blocs.That has never

0:28:07 > 0:28:10happened with any other country that has entered into a customs union

0:28:10 > 0:28:15with the EU. Why do you think they would give us an equal say, one of

0:28:15 > 0:28:20us against 27 of them, when it came to a negotiating a trade deal with

0:28:20 > 0:28:23someone else somewhere else in the world?The EU is different trading

0:28:23 > 0:28:27arrangements with different countries.It does and none of them

0:28:27 > 0:28:32have a say in outside trade deals. The difference here, as Lord Howard

0:28:32 > 0:28:38said, we are the largest economy the world. The European Union has

0:28:38 > 0:28:42important trading links with the United Kingdom, it is a two-way

0:28:42 > 0:28:46process, and therefore it is in both of interest that we strike a deal

0:28:46 > 0:28:50that benefits both of us.I do not know what is happening on this

0:28:50 > 0:28:54programme. You are agreeing with Laura Taarabt, he's agreeing with

0:28:54 > 0:28:59Nicky Morgan. It is a very unusual morning.You're all in the same

0:28:59 > 0:29:03side. The difference is the Conservatives have ruled out a

0:29:03 > 0:29:06customs union, and we are saying that a customs union is vital, not

0:29:06 > 0:29:10least that we can give real assurances that the Good Friday

0:29:10 > 0:29:14Agreement and our treaty obligations in the Good Friday Agreement are not

0:29:14 > 0:29:18torn up. We do not want to lose the advantage is that we have seen of 20

0:29:18 > 0:29:23years of peace between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

0:29:23 > 0:29:26If the EU says, you can remain in a customs union but you do not get a

0:29:26 > 0:29:30large say in future trade deals with countries outside of the EU and you

0:29:30 > 0:29:34just have to accept what is negotiated by the EU 27, would you

0:29:34 > 0:29:39still want to be in that customs union?We would have to look at that

0:29:39 > 0:29:46carefully. We want to be a rule maker

0:29:46 > 0:29:50maker and not a real taker. It is hard to do that if you stay in a

0:29:50 > 0:29:52customs union. Unless you have a new arrangement whereby the United

0:29:52 > 0:29:55Kingdom sits at the table when those trade deals are being made. That is

0:29:55 > 0:29:59the new arrangement that we seek to make. We believe we would be in a

0:29:59 > 0:30:02better position to make those arrangements with the European Union

0:30:02 > 0:30:06because we have approached the Brexit negotiations in an entirely

0:30:06 > 0:30:11different manner. We have said what we would like to see in terms of

0:30:11 > 0:30:13transitional arrangements, the government subsequently followed on

0:30:13 > 0:30:18a number of those issues, but all along we have said that we want to

0:30:18 > 0:30:22maintain the benefits of tariff free custom free trade, and that is

0:30:22 > 0:30:26absolutely crucial, not least for the Northern Ireland issue.One of

0:30:26 > 0:30:31the things the Labour Party was looking forward to have to Brexit,

0:30:31 > 0:30:35and that Jeremy Corbyn has stressed, was the freedom from state aid

0:30:35 > 0:30:39rules, where the EU stops the UK Government from giving financial

0:30:39 > 0:30:44assistance to any particular sector of industry. Theresa May spoke about

0:30:44 > 0:30:47that on Friday and said it would be necessary to sign up to the

0:30:47 > 0:30:51directives on state aid and procurement rules, to keep those EU

0:30:51 > 0:30:58rules. Do you accept that will have to happen?

0:30:58 > 0:31:04No, and we have a different view anyway. When it came to our

0:31:04 > 0:31:08arguments the Government should step in to assist the steel industry in

0:31:08 > 0:31:12Britain, the Government used these fallacies about state aid rules to

0:31:12 > 0:31:16excuse themselves for not giving adequate support to that industry.

0:31:16 > 0:31:19We didn't believe in the interpretation the Government made

0:31:19 > 0:31:23because other European countries have got round the so-called state

0:31:23 > 0:31:29aid rules. We have said as part of our negotiations, that is a red line

0:31:29 > 0:31:36for us. We would want to make sure we could facilitate state aid in a

0:31:36 > 0:31:39number of areas where Labour Party policies have been clearer about

0:31:39 > 0:31:42supporting our industries.If that is a red line, is it more important

0:31:42 > 0:31:47staying in the customs union, if you have to make the choice? The EU

0:31:47 > 0:31:56could say no customs union if you insist on state aid.We believe we

0:31:56 > 0:32:01could get a bespoke arrangement for a new customs relationship, a new

0:32:01 > 0:32:06customs union.I think there's a name for that, isn't it called

0:32:06 > 0:32:10cherry picking?No because we believe this is in the interests of

0:32:10 > 0:32:15the UK and in the interests of the European Union. 44% of our trade is

0:32:15 > 0:32:21with the European Union, 53% of the EU's trade is with the UK so it is

0:32:21 > 0:32:29in both our interests that we sort this out and get the best deal not

0:32:29 > 0:32:32for the European Union but for Britain outside of the European

0:32:32 > 0:32:35Union.You seem to be saying the Tory government are asking for the

0:32:35 > 0:32:39impossible in their negotiations and won't get what they are looking for

0:32:39 > 0:32:43but somehow if there was a Labour government negotiating this deal,

0:32:43 > 0:32:47all doors would open and you would be able to select which bit of the

0:32:47 > 0:32:50customs union you did and didn't like and could have a bespoke deal

0:32:50 > 0:32:56that is not available for some reason to Theresa May.They ruled

0:32:56 > 0:33:02out a customs union, I think that is a bad decision because I believe a

0:33:02 > 0:33:07customs union, negotiated between the UK and the European Union 27 is

0:33:07 > 0:33:12in the best interests of sorting out customs free tariff-free trade going

0:33:12 > 0:33:16forward but also sorting out the issue of the border between Ireland,

0:33:16 > 0:33:22north and south.Labour set out six tests as to whether they would vote

0:33:22 > 0:33:26for the Brexit deal in the end and one of those was that it had to

0:33:26 > 0:33:31deliver the same benefits we get from being in the single market and

0:33:31 > 0:33:35customs union. That was a quote from David Davis, but Theresa May has

0:33:35 > 0:33:41been clear we are not going to get the same benefits. Does this mean

0:33:41 > 0:33:46Labour under no circumstances will be able to vote for any Brexit deal

0:33:46 > 0:33:50that's been negotiated?Let's see what Brexit deal comes back before

0:33:50 > 0:33:54we have a hypothetical vote on this. You don't think there's any

0:33:54 > 0:33:59circumstances in which it could come back...I believe if the Government

0:33:59 > 0:34:03wanted to enter into negotiations to do that, they could do that. The

0:34:03 > 0:34:07fact the Prime Minister has conceded is probably because they have ruled

0:34:07 > 0:34:12out a customs union. We believe that is the wrong decision, we believe

0:34:12 > 0:34:16that arrangement is possible, but let's see what the Government comes

0:34:16 > 0:34:21back with and then we will decide how we vote in parliament.

0:34:21 > 0:34:25Parliament has got a meaningful vote and that was something that had to

0:34:25 > 0:34:30be secured through the parliamentary processes. The Government weren't

0:34:30 > 0:34:35going to give us that right and I think it is right it is ultimately

0:34:35 > 0:34:37Parliament that decides.Thank you.

0:34:37 > 0:34:40It's coming up to 11.40, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:34:40 > 0:34:41Still to come...

0:34:41 > 0:34:44As the government promises to cut red tape to get more houses built,

0:34:44 > 0:34:46we'll ask the Cabinet Office minister David Lidington

0:34:46 > 0:34:48whether they're finally prepared to take on the nimbys.

0:34:48 > 0:34:50First though, it's time for the Sunday Politics

0:34:50 > 0:34:53where you are.

0:35:01 > 0:35:03Hello and welcome to the London part of the show.

0:35:03 > 0:35:04I'm Jo Coburn.

0:35:04 > 0:35:06With me for the duration today, Andy Slaughter,

0:35:06 > 0:35:08Labour MP for Hammersmith, and Chris Philp, Conservative

0:35:08 > 0:35:09MP for Croydon South.

0:35:09 > 0:35:11Welcome to both of you.

0:35:11 > 0:35:14I want to start with the latest on Brexit.

0:35:14 > 0:35:18On Friday, the Prime Minister made her latest keynote

0:35:18 > 0:35:20speech on leaving the EU, whilst the Labour leader,

0:35:20 > 0:35:22Jeremy Corbyn, earlier in the week announced Labour's new position

0:35:22 > 0:35:25on the Customs Union.

0:35:25 > 0:35:27First of all though, Chris Philp, the Prime Minister says

0:35:27 > 0:35:29there will be less access to the single market

0:35:29 > 0:35:30than we had before.

0:35:30 > 0:35:34Is that a good thing for business?

0:35:34 > 0:35:36I think it's a realistic assessment of where we are,

0:35:36 > 0:35:38given we are leaving the European Union.

0:35:38 > 0:35:40I thought the speech was very good, it was balanced.

0:35:40 > 0:35:45It recognised that we couldn't continue having the same level

0:35:45 > 0:35:48of access as now because if we did we effectively

0:35:48 > 0:35:53wouldn't be leaving.

0:35:53 > 0:35:56Right, so why did the Brexit Secretary say we will have

0:35:56 > 0:35:59the exact same benefits of leaving the EU as we had when we were

0:35:59 > 0:36:01in the single market?

0:36:01 > 0:36:03I think what the Brexit Secretary meant and what the Prime Minister

0:36:03 > 0:36:07said in her speech last week was that we are going to have a deep

0:36:07 > 0:36:08and special trade relationship.

0:36:08 > 0:36:11We are going to be signing up to broadly common standards.

0:36:11 > 0:36:14That's a critical thing to say because it means we can trade freely

0:36:14 > 0:36:17if we accept our regulatory standards are going to be broadly

0:36:17 > 0:36:18equivalent of the European Union's.

0:36:18 > 0:36:19Broadly equivalent but not as high.

0:36:19 > 0:36:20No, certainly not as high.

0:36:20 > 0:36:23In fact she said in some areas like workers' rights,

0:36:23 > 0:36:25environmental standards, she would expect UK standards to be

0:36:25 > 0:36:27even higher than European standards as they currently are.

0:36:27 > 0:36:29But the point is they won't be identical, they're going

0:36:29 > 0:36:31to be broadly equivalent with an independent body,

0:36:31 > 0:36:34not the ECJ, deciding whether they are equivalent or not.

0:36:34 > 0:36:36And that means we can continue to trade freely

0:36:36 > 0:36:37and that's very important.

0:36:37 > 0:36:40I mean it was a reality check for Brexiteers, wasn't it?

0:36:40 > 0:36:42The ECJ, the European Court of Justice, will still arbitrate

0:36:42 > 0:36:45over certain things, we will still be signed up to some

0:36:45 > 0:36:46of the key European agencies.

0:36:46 > 0:36:49It was a realistic approach, as you said, because the UK

0:36:49 > 0:36:51Government has realised they can't get what they want.

0:36:51 > 0:36:53I don't think the European Court of Justice will be arbitrating.

0:36:53 > 0:36:56I think its judgments will have some influence in some of the bodies

0:36:56 > 0:36:58that we are still part of.

0:36:58 > 0:37:01It was a balanced and realistic speech that lays the foundations

0:37:01 > 0:37:04for a really good free trade deal and I'm delighted she made it.

0:37:04 > 0:37:05And do you accept that?

0:37:05 > 0:37:06It's just chaotic, isn't it?

0:37:06 > 0:37:07In what way?

0:37:07 > 0:37:10We are not that much further forward because Theresa May can't

0:37:10 > 0:37:11commit herself absolutely because she will...

0:37:11 > 0:37:15One faction in her party, either the pro-Brexit extremists

0:37:15 > 0:37:17or the Remainers will suddenly say that's it, so she has

0:37:17 > 0:37:25to keep the show going.

0:37:26 > 0:37:30But she'll say on the one hand we are not going to sign up to any

0:37:30 > 0:37:32of those terrible things like the customs union

0:37:32 > 0:37:33and single market,

0:37:33 > 0:37:36but on the other hand I want us to have the best possible

0:37:36 > 0:37:37deal that's going.

0:37:37 > 0:37:38What has Labour promised your constituents?

0:37:38 > 0:37:41I mean will your constituents say that Labour has a better policy

0:37:41 > 0:37:43in terms of its promises of the customs union?

0:37:43 > 0:37:44Absolutely.

0:37:44 > 0:37:48My constituents I think know that, which is probably why my majority

0:37:48 > 0:37:49trebled at the last election.

0:37:49 > 0:37:52But they don't want to be part of the single market, do they?

0:37:52 > 0:37:54Jeremy moved the party significantly, Jeremy's speech

0:37:54 > 0:37:57was significant last week because it committed us to the customs union.

0:37:57 > 0:37:58Out of the customs union.

0:37:58 > 0:38:03There's very little difference between those two.

0:38:03 > 0:38:06What he says is that we want to replicate the customs union

0:38:06 > 0:38:08and as far as possible the single market as well.

0:38:08 > 0:38:11Those are significant moves in the direction of travel,

0:38:11 > 0:38:14which the party is going on.

0:38:14 > 0:38:17Do you think Jeremy Corbyn will sign up to a single market membership?

0:38:17 > 0:38:21I think it's possible that we will move further as time

0:38:21 > 0:38:25goes on but the indications he has given so far we want to maintain

0:38:25 > 0:38:27the advantages that we had as members of the EU.

0:38:27 > 0:38:29But you can't have your cake and eat it.

0:38:29 > 0:38:32You can't both retain all of the advantages and also

0:38:32 > 0:38:33at the same time leave.

0:38:33 > 0:38:35You must feel a bit sore because he fired you,

0:38:35 > 0:38:37didn't he, about a year ago.

0:38:37 > 0:38:38You were sacked?

0:38:38 > 0:38:39For advocating customs union membership.

0:38:39 > 0:38:42I don't feel sore about it, I'm delighted that we are now

0:38:42 > 0:38:43advocating that policy.

0:38:43 > 0:38:45Yes, but on the basis that you wanted single market membership

0:38:45 > 0:38:48and he said you can no longer be part of the team.

0:38:48 > 0:38:51The job that I think Keir Starmer and Jeremy are doing

0:38:51 > 0:38:54is in recognising that if we want to be a successful

0:38:54 > 0:38:56trading country, we are going to have to stay on the closest

0:38:56 > 0:38:59possible terms with the EU and they are making

0:38:59 > 0:39:00pragmatic decisions.

0:39:00 > 0:39:03What you get with Theresa May is just bones thrown

0:39:03 > 0:39:06to these lunatic fringe, the Rees-Moggites and so forth,

0:39:06 > 0:39:09just to say we are still going to be a hard Brexit, anti-European party

0:39:09 > 0:39:11while admitting that...

0:39:11 > 0:39:14Let's talk about the City of London because the City

0:39:14 > 0:39:17of London financial services, an important part of the economy,

0:39:17 > 0:39:19and Theresa May said we are not looking for passporting

0:39:19 > 0:39:23because we understand this is intrinsic to the single market

0:39:23 > 0:39:25of which we would no longer be a member.

0:39:25 > 0:39:29It would also require us to be subject to a single rule book over

0:39:29 > 0:39:30which we would have no say.

0:39:30 > 0:39:32That's going to be very damaging, isn't it?

0:39:32 > 0:39:35But if you read the very next paragraph in the speech,

0:39:35 > 0:39:38which I'm sure we both have, she goes on to say that we

0:39:38 > 0:39:39would commit to having regulatory standards that

0:39:39 > 0:39:40were of equivalent levels.

0:39:40 > 0:39:48If that's acceptable to the EU.

0:39:49 > 0:39:51I don't see why it wouldn't be because they book over

0:39:51 > 0:39:54half their debt and equity issuance in London so they really would be

0:39:54 > 0:39:56cutting off their nose to spite their faces.

0:39:56 > 0:39:59How would that be the same as passporting, which the City

0:39:59 > 0:40:00of London has now?

0:40:00 > 0:40:03It would give us financial services access providing that an independent

0:40:03 > 0:40:05body found that our regulatory standards were of a equivalent

0:40:05 > 0:40:08standard broadly to the Europeans, which we would expect them to be,

0:40:08 > 0:40:10because in many ways our regulatory standards are higher.

0:40:10 > 0:40:11So that is passporting, isn't it?

0:40:11 > 0:40:14It gives you market access without having to be part

0:40:14 > 0:40:17of the single market and signing up to the last dot and comma

0:40:17 > 0:40:18of every single last rule.

0:40:18 > 0:40:20But I must say, I think Andy's characterisation

0:40:20 > 0:40:23a moment ago of the speech, of sort of throwing bones to Jacob,

0:40:23 > 0:40:26and by the way I don't think he eats bones.

0:40:26 > 0:40:27Jacob Rees-Mogg, this is.

0:40:27 > 0:40:30Was rather unfair because I thought this speech, if you read it

0:40:30 > 0:40:32carefully, is very realistic and it recognises where we need to make

0:40:32 > 0:40:35concessions and it recognises where the European Union does.

0:40:35 > 0:40:37I think it was actually very realistic and balanced,

0:40:37 > 0:40:39and I think will provide the foundations for a sensible

0:40:39 > 0:40:41free-trade deal that works for them and us.

0:40:41 > 0:40:43Chris, you have to say that.

0:40:43 > 0:40:46You were a Remainer and I suspect you recognise this is all nonsense.

0:40:46 > 0:40:49What we have done, if we have rejected the advantages we had

0:40:49 > 0:40:52of being in the EU and now we are trying to sign up

0:40:52 > 0:40:53to second-best versions of them...

0:40:53 > 0:40:55But people voted to leave, Andy Slaughter, didn't they,

0:40:55 > 0:40:57and the point is one of your colleagues, Frank Field,

0:40:57 > 0:41:01said people like you have ratted and are ratting on Labour leaders.

0:41:01 > 0:41:03said people like you have ratted and are ratting on Labour leavers.

0:41:03 > 0:41:06Frank Field is one of half a dozen Labour MPs who doesn't agree

0:41:06 > 0:41:09with the direction of travel the Labour Party has.

0:41:09 > 0:41:11The Labour Party is actually very united on this issue.

0:41:11 > 0:41:12Theresa May has two problems.

0:41:12 > 0:41:15One is how does she square leaving the EU with the economic

0:41:15 > 0:41:19success of the country, but she's got that additional

0:41:19 > 0:41:25problem that all Tory leaders have had back to John Major which is how

0:41:25 > 0:41:28do we reconcile the irreconcilable Ken Clarke and Rees-Mogg?

0:41:28 > 0:41:29Let's leave it there.

0:41:29 > 0:41:32Westminster is regarded as the jewel in the crown of local

0:41:32 > 0:41:32government in London.

0:41:32 > 0:41:35The Conservatives have been in power there for as long as the City

0:41:35 > 0:41:37of Westminster has existed in its current form.

0:41:37 > 0:41:40The opposition claim the council is out of touch

0:41:40 > 0:41:42and in hock to the privileged, but they're now hitting back

0:41:42 > 0:41:44with a policy to raise money from the rich.

0:41:44 > 0:41:47Will that be enough to save them from the predicted Labour

0:41:47 > 0:41:48upsurge in inner London?

0:41:48 > 0:41:52Tanjil Rashid reports.

0:41:52 > 0:41:54Westminster has some pretty well-to-do residents.

0:41:54 > 0:41:55The Queen, for one.

0:41:55 > 0:41:59But it's not all swans and stucco fronted terraces.

0:41:59 > 0:42:02It has the highest number of rough sleepers in the country,

0:42:02 > 0:42:05one of whom recently died yards from Parliament.

0:42:05 > 0:42:08The city of Westminster has long been divided with a diverse

0:42:08 > 0:42:13population and a large number of council estates.

0:42:13 > 0:42:18The north tends to vote Labour and returns the Labour MP to Parliament.

0:42:18 > 0:42:21But then you have the rather more affluent Tory leaning South

0:42:21 > 0:42:28and the council as a whole has been Conservative run since 1964.

0:42:28 > 0:42:31If Labour want to take control here, as some polling indicates may

0:42:31 > 0:42:34happen, they need to win in places like this.

0:42:34 > 0:42:37Both the election results last year but also the polling done since then

0:42:37 > 0:42:39shows a really dramatic shift to Labour, particularly

0:42:39 > 0:42:43in inner London.

0:42:43 > 0:42:46So the last bit of polling done show a 13-point swing to Labour in inner

0:42:46 > 0:42:50London and that is of the scale that will enable Labour potentially

0:42:50 > 0:42:54to take councils like Wandsworth and Westminster.

0:42:54 > 0:42:57If they manage to crack Westminster, something seismic is happening

0:42:57 > 0:43:03in British politics.

0:43:03 > 0:43:05The Labour team are hoping to capitalise on local

0:43:05 > 0:43:06opposition to Brexit.

0:43:06 > 0:43:10They are fielding an EU citizen as a candidate.

0:43:10 > 0:43:13Well, I meet other EU nationals all the time when I'm campaigning

0:43:13 > 0:43:19and you see that they are very, very concerned about Brexit.

0:43:19 > 0:43:21I think there's also the anger over Grenfell,

0:43:21 > 0:43:25which is round the corner from here.

0:43:25 > 0:43:28There are people who previously voted Conservative who are fed up

0:43:28 > 0:43:31with Brexit, fed up with the hard right Tory agenda nationally

0:43:31 > 0:43:34and want to see something at a local level that

0:43:34 > 0:43:36represents their interests more directly.

0:43:36 > 0:43:39In order to win, they do need to double the number

0:43:39 > 0:43:40of councillors they have.

0:43:40 > 0:43:43Labour currently have 15 to the Tories' 45.

0:43:43 > 0:43:45The swing that's been projected would be enough but the Conservative

0:43:45 > 0:43:47leader of the council believes her party

0:43:47 > 0:43:51will weather the storm.

0:43:51 > 0:43:54On the doorstep, we are being told that they are voting

0:43:54 > 0:43:55Conservative in Westminster.

0:43:55 > 0:43:57They may vote for Labour in the national elections

0:43:57 > 0:44:01but many of them tell us in local elections they vote for us.

0:44:01 > 0:44:03And she has an eye-catching policy to raise funds

0:44:03 > 0:44:07from Westminster's wealthy.

0:44:07 > 0:44:09Over the last couple of years, wealthier residents have

0:44:09 > 0:44:11asked us consistently, why don't you put up

0:44:11 > 0:44:15the council tax?

0:44:15 > 0:44:17So this new voluntary contribution asks those in

0:44:17 > 0:44:21band H to pay a bit more, consider paying a bit more.

0:44:21 > 0:44:23Their council tax bill for next year will be £833.

0:44:23 > 0:44:27We are suggesting another £833.

0:44:27 > 0:44:30Some of those targeted by the scheme don't think it's a reliable way

0:44:30 > 0:44:32to fund the council.

0:44:32 > 0:44:37The voluntary contribution, whilst very worthwhile,

0:44:37 > 0:44:39doesn't necessarily give the council any surety as to how much

0:44:39 > 0:44:44money they will have.

0:44:44 > 0:44:46It relies on goodwill and being reliant on goodwill

0:44:46 > 0:44:51is a little bit like a coconut shy at the fairground.

0:44:51 > 0:44:54You don't know whether you are going to win that coconut or you're

0:44:54 > 0:45:02not going to win it.

0:45:03 > 0:45:04D'Hoore is

0:45:04 > 0:45:07The scheme will be confirmed by the council this week,

0:45:12 > 0:45:14The scheme will be confirmed by the council

0:45:14 > 0:45:15is this week,

0:45:15 > 0:45:18and come the election in May, we will see whether or not

0:45:18 > 0:45:21it is enough for Westminster to buck the trend and remain in Tory hands.

0:45:21 > 0:45:22That was Tanjil Rashid reporting.

0:45:22 > 0:45:26The policy wonks there are saying there is a 13% inner

0:45:26 > 0:45:26London swing to Labour.

0:45:26 > 0:45:28Were we to see that, that would be enough

0:45:28 > 0:45:30for Labour to take Westminster for the first time.

0:45:30 > 0:45:31How worried are you?

0:45:31 > 0:45:34I think we have all seen how accurate opinion polls

0:45:34 > 0:45:36are the last election, and at the referendum.

0:45:36 > 0:45:37So you do not believe them?

0:45:37 > 0:45:39Let's wait until the election actually happens but I think

0:45:39 > 0:45:42Westminster City Council have an incredibly strong story.

0:45:42 > 0:45:44They charge the lowest band D council tax in the country,

0:45:44 > 0:45:46it is less than half their immediate neighbour, Labour-controlled

0:45:46 > 0:45:48Camden, and yet their services are excellent.

0:45:48 > 0:45:50So why are Labour doing so well?

0:45:50 > 0:45:52We do not know they are doing so well.

0:45:52 > 0:45:54They collect the bins twice a week in Westminster.

0:45:54 > 0:45:56In Croydon, my borough, Labour run, bin collections have been cut.

0:45:56 > 0:45:59They have the highest social mobility in the country,

0:45:59 > 0:46:01their children's services are rated outstanding by Ofsted,

0:46:01 > 0:46:03whereas in Croydon, the Labour run borough I am from,

0:46:03 > 0:46:05the children's services have been found to be dangerous.

0:46:05 > 0:46:08You're giving me a list of what you see as the achievements

0:46:08 > 0:46:11of the council but we've just heard there, you may say, we cannot

0:46:11 > 0:46:14believe the polls but look what happened in the general

0:46:14 > 0:46:16election, in terms of Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party doing better

0:46:16 > 0:46:17than people thought.

0:46:17 > 0:46:21So I say to you again, the last time this was a marginal

0:46:21 > 0:46:23area, you have to go back to Shirley Porter and the homes

0:46:23 > 0:46:25for votes scandal.

0:46:25 > 0:46:25So what is happening?

0:46:25 > 0:46:27Andy Slaughter alluded to it.

0:46:27 > 0:46:29Clearly in the general election, a national election,

0:46:29 > 0:46:30there were significant challenges for the Conservatives,

0:46:30 > 0:46:34especially in inner London but this is a local election,

0:46:34 > 0:46:36it is about local issues, and Westminster Council,

0:46:36 > 0:46:39in common with Wandsworth and other Conservative councils,

0:46:39 > 0:46:42do a fantastic job delivering excellent services for low tax,

0:46:42 > 0:46:44unlike Labour run councils, like Croydon, where I am from,

0:46:44 > 0:46:46who do a terrible job, in things like children's services

0:46:46 > 0:46:48and collecting rubbish while charging exorbitantly

0:46:48 > 0:46:49high council tax.

0:46:49 > 0:46:52There would still have to be an enormous swing.

0:46:52 > 0:46:55It may be great publicity to say that Labour may take the scalp

0:46:55 > 0:46:58of a council that you have never held in recent time,

0:46:58 > 0:47:00but it is actually unrealistic?

0:47:00 > 0:47:04I note the desperation in Chris's voice.

0:47:04 > 0:47:07And the fact that Labour is trying to win Westminster very seriously,

0:47:07 > 0:47:11which it is, and it has great representation, a fantastic MP

0:47:11 > 0:47:15in Karen Buck, great opposition there, but you're right,

0:47:15 > 0:47:18it is a very big ask, because you're asking them to go

0:47:18 > 0:47:21from having a quarter of the seats to winning, but there is a chance,

0:47:21 > 0:47:26but it will take a lot of work and a big turnout from voters,

0:47:26 > 0:47:27like the EU voters, we heard from them,

0:47:27 > 0:47:29but also from people who...

0:47:29 > 0:47:33I'm sorry, but Chris absolutely gets it wrong about Westminster.

0:47:33 > 0:47:36It is a terrible council, it has the sixth highest child

0:47:36 > 0:47:38poverty in the country.

0:47:38 > 0:47:42People think it is a wealthy area, it is not, and yet they have taken

0:47:42 > 0:47:44£10 million in the last two years out of children's services.

0:47:44 > 0:47:47But as you say, still unrealistic for Labour to actually win it.

0:47:47 > 0:47:51Could you sit here today and say, we are going to win that?

0:47:51 > 0:47:54You are very stupid to predict the results of elections.

0:47:54 > 0:47:56People were not predicting that Labour would take Hammersmith three

0:47:56 > 0:47:58years ago and we did.

0:47:58 > 0:48:01We're the only council since then to actually cut council tax

0:48:01 > 0:48:03during that time in London.

0:48:03 > 0:48:06I hope we will win again on our record, but the Tory record

0:48:06 > 0:48:08in Westminster is terrible, particularly on housing,

0:48:08 > 0:48:11one of the worst achieving councils in terms of providing affordable

0:48:11 > 0:48:14housing in London.

0:48:14 > 0:48:17How do you judge this policy from the leader of the council

0:48:17 > 0:48:20who is asking the richest residents to pitch in with a voluntary tax?

0:48:20 > 0:48:23Do you support that?

0:48:23 > 0:48:25This is more desperate, amateur stuff.

0:48:25 > 0:48:30You cannot run government on the basis of charity.

0:48:30 > 0:48:33The real crisis in local government is because every council had

0:48:33 > 0:48:38at least a third of its budget cut by the cuts in central government.

0:48:38 > 0:48:40During the austerity period, central government rather cowardly

0:48:40 > 0:48:42chose to cut local government rather than cutting some

0:48:42 > 0:48:43of its own services.

0:48:43 > 0:48:46Is this just a gimmick?

0:48:46 > 0:48:49Would you like your richest constituents to pay around £850

0:48:49 > 0:48:52a year more, donated to council coffers?

0:48:52 > 0:48:54I am always in favour of trying new things.

0:48:54 > 0:48:56You have got to be flexibly minded.

0:48:56 > 0:48:57That is a no.

0:48:57 > 0:48:59Let's give it a try.

0:48:59 > 0:49:03I would be perfectly happy for Croydon Council to do that.

0:49:03 > 0:49:05The Conservatives on Croydon Council have proposed exactly this measure

0:49:05 > 0:49:10but take Westminster as an example.

0:49:10 > 0:49:13On housing, which Andrew mentioned, we've got 415 homeless places,

0:49:13 > 0:49:15overnight shelter places in Westminster, the

0:49:15 > 0:49:16highest in the country.

0:49:16 > 0:49:19There are seven teams of people going around every night

0:49:19 > 0:49:22in Westminster actively trying to help homeless people so I think

0:49:22 > 0:49:24Westminster has a proud record of delivering great services for low

0:49:24 > 0:49:27council tax and that is why they deserve to get re-elected

0:49:27 > 0:49:29because that is what these elections are about.

0:49:29 > 0:49:32Why not just put up council tax?

0:49:32 > 0:49:37This system which Andy Slaughter has said is a gimmick,

0:49:37 > 0:49:41really, it is a charity, a charitable donation,

0:49:41 > 0:49:44rather than setting up a new system, why not put up council tax,

0:49:44 > 0:49:46why don't you advise Westminster to do that?

0:49:46 > 0:49:49It is up to Westminster to set their own level of council tax.

0:49:49 > 0:49:50Would that be better?

0:49:50 > 0:49:53If they felt they absolutely needed that money to run their services,

0:49:53 > 0:49:55I am sure they would put their council tax up,

0:49:55 > 0:49:57but this is a voluntary measure to provide additional services

0:49:57 > 0:49:59and people can choose whether to pay it.

0:49:59 > 0:50:01A good idea for the rich to pitch in?

0:50:01 > 0:50:03Look, it is a joke.

0:50:03 > 0:50:05You cannot run government on the charity of individuals.

0:50:05 > 0:50:07Street homelessness has gone up 140% since the Tories got

0:50:07 > 0:50:13back into government.

0:50:13 > 0:50:14There are 2,500 families in temporary accommodation

0:50:14 > 0:50:16in Westminster.

0:50:16 > 0:50:18It is a shambles and this sort of gimmick is not

0:50:18 > 0:50:19going to convince anybody.

0:50:19 > 0:50:21Let's move on.

0:50:21 > 0:50:23This week the Labour MP for Bermondsey and Old Southwark,

0:50:23 > 0:50:25Neil Coyle, wrote to EU citizens in his constituency.

0:50:25 > 0:50:28He urged them to regard the upcoming local elections as a referendum

0:50:28 > 0:50:30on the Prime Minister's handling of the Brexit negotiations

0:50:30 > 0:50:31and to vote for Labour accordingly.

0:50:31 > 0:50:37Sebastien Ash has more.

0:50:37 > 0:50:42Over one million EU citizens in London are eligible to vote

0:50:42 > 0:50:45in local council elections on May the 3rd.

0:50:45 > 0:50:47London's mayor, Sadiq Khan, has called on them to,

0:50:47 > 0:50:50send the Tory government the message that we do not want their chaotic,

0:50:50 > 0:50:51extreme hard-Brexit approach.

0:50:51 > 0:50:54And in a letter targeted at EU citizens in his constituency,

0:50:54 > 0:50:56Labour MP for Bermondsey and Old Southwark, Neil Coyle,

0:50:56 > 0:50:58has said, as someone from an EU member state,

0:50:58 > 0:51:01you have to vote in the local elections.

0:51:01 > 0:51:04This will be a major chance to send Theresa May's government a clear

0:51:04 > 0:51:06message about her disastrous Brexit policy and how it affects

0:51:06 > 0:51:09you and our whole community.

0:51:09 > 0:51:12The party's commitment this week to staying in a customs union

0:51:12 > 0:51:16with the EU could win votes in the capital, and with significant

0:51:16 > 0:51:22EU populations in swing councils like Wandsworth and Barnet,

0:51:22 > 0:51:30their votes could make all the difference, but the EU

0:51:30 > 0:51:32citizens rights group The3million have said,

0:51:32 > 0:51:35the jury is out on Labour because they supported Article 50.

0:51:35 > 0:51:37Joining me now, Costanza de Toma, from the organisation The3million,

0:51:37 > 0:51:39which lobbies on behalf of EU citizens rights.

0:51:39 > 0:51:42You say Labour cannot be trusted, so who are you advocating EU

0:51:42 > 0:51:43citizens should vote for?

0:51:43 > 0:51:46Well, the key thing to say is I think we would like EU nationals

0:51:46 > 0:51:50to vote first and foremost.

0:51:50 > 0:51:53We're not telling anybody who to vote for, but we are talking

0:51:53 > 0:51:59to our members, to our fellow EU nationals, to be active citizens,

0:51:59 > 0:52:02so to keep councillors accountable, to make them accountable to us,

0:52:02 > 0:52:05as they would to any other constituents.

0:52:05 > 0:52:07So we are equipping them with questions to ask

0:52:07 > 0:52:15when they are being canvassed at their doorstep.

0:52:30 > 0:52:32Do you get a sense that this will be a referendum

0:52:32 > 0:52:33on Brexit, these elections?

0:52:33 > 0:52:36Well, of course it will, but it is not about whether you're

0:52:36 > 0:52:37for or against Brexit.

0:52:37 > 0:52:38The3million, for instance, does not itself take

0:52:38 > 0:52:40a position on Brexit.

0:52:40 > 0:52:41We are here to safeguard citizens rights.

0:52:41 > 0:52:44If there is a Tory run council that will provide excellent services,

0:52:44 > 0:52:46information services, outreach, and to register

0:52:46 > 0:52:47all EU nationals, then why not support that?

0:52:47 > 0:52:51What is the mood music coming back from the members you have spoken to?

0:52:51 > 0:52:53Well, there is a certain level of distrust in the current

0:52:53 > 0:52:55government, I have to say.

0:52:55 > 0:52:57But equally, I think we have heard a lot of noise,

0:52:57 > 0:53:00we have heard lots of reassurances, but they have been

0:53:00 > 0:53:05empty reassurances.

0:53:05 > 0:53:08What we need is actions, and we need actions at the local level.

0:53:08 > 0:53:09We're talking about local elections and luckily

0:53:09 > 0:53:15we have a vote at the local level.

0:53:15 > 0:53:20What is this distrust based on in terms of EU citizens' rights

0:53:20 > 0:53:23because the government and no doubt Chris Philp would say that those

0:53:23 > 0:53:25rights are going to be guaranteed, and even during the implementation

0:53:25 > 0:53:27and transition period, that now they will have

0:53:27 > 0:53:29indefinite leave to remain, although other rights may change?

0:53:29 > 0:53:30Well, exactly.

0:53:30 > 0:53:33The devil is in the detail.

0:53:33 > 0:53:35We will not be keeping the same rights that we have now.

0:53:35 > 0:53:38And what the government has proposed is a lesser immigration

0:53:38 > 0:53:42status with fewer rights.

0:53:42 > 0:53:46She's just being realistic, Costanza, saying that there

0:53:46 > 0:53:49is a level of mistrust in the government and that is hardly

0:53:49 > 0:53:50surprising based on past rhetoric?

0:53:50 > 0:53:52Let's start with the local question.

0:53:52 > 0:53:53She asked about what local councils are doing.

0:53:53 > 0:53:56Westminster City Council, that we were just discussing,

0:53:56 > 0:53:58are running an outreach event tomorrow, Monday, which EU nationals

0:53:58 > 0:54:01are invited to where they can have all of their rights

0:54:01 > 0:54:02and the processes explained.

0:54:02 > 0:54:04They are already doing in Westminster, a Conservative

0:54:04 > 0:54:06controlled council, an enormous programme of outreach,

0:54:06 > 0:54:07exactly as you have just requested.

0:54:07 > 0:54:11What about the level of trust?

0:54:11 > 0:54:13I hope that will be recognised.

0:54:13 > 0:54:16As far as the wider national rights are concerned,

0:54:16 > 0:54:19at the stage one agreement on the 8th of December,

0:54:19 > 0:54:21the Prime Minister and the European Union made it clear

0:54:21 > 0:54:25that European citizens here would have the right to stay,

0:54:25 > 0:54:28obviously, and after five years living here would be able to get

0:54:28 > 0:54:31settled status and after ten years become full citizens.

0:54:31 > 0:54:34Those people would also have the right to bring over

0:54:34 > 0:54:36close family members, so that is a generous offer

0:54:36 > 0:54:39which shows that we really do want European Union citizens to stay

0:54:39 > 0:54:41here and continue making the phenomenal contribution

0:54:41 > 0:54:45they have been making for the last ten, 20 or 30 years.

0:54:45 > 0:54:46Does that convince you?

0:54:46 > 0:54:50It is in black and white, in the agreement.

0:54:50 > 0:54:52I am afraid it does not.

0:54:52 > 0:54:55It is less than what we have now, and it is not in

0:54:55 > 0:54:56black and white yet.

0:54:56 > 0:54:59The logic of your argument is that your members are more

0:54:59 > 0:55:01likely to vote for Labour, as many other Londoners?

0:55:01 > 0:55:04No, I would not say so.

0:55:04 > 0:55:08We have not heard reassurances from Labour either.

0:55:08 > 0:55:11There have been very unfortunate votes on our rights in the Commons

0:55:11 > 0:55:14and Labour have not supported citizens' rights, and to be honest,

0:55:14 > 0:55:16remaining in a customs union would make no difference

0:55:16 > 0:55:20to freedom of movement.

0:55:20 > 0:55:22That is the point.

0:55:22 > 0:55:24Labour cannot be trusted on this issue either,

0:55:24 > 0:55:28because they have been very opaque.

0:55:28 > 0:55:32There has been a move in terms of saying we would be part

0:55:32 > 0:55:34of a customs union if Labour was the government but

0:55:34 > 0:55:36in every other sense, you voted to leave the EU?

0:55:36 > 0:55:40I think The3million are doing a very good job and it is right to be

0:55:40 > 0:55:42evenhanded and encourage people to vote, that is the

0:55:42 > 0:55:44first important thing.

0:55:44 > 0:55:48Labour are not doing any more for EU citizens than the Tories?

0:55:48 > 0:55:50Absolutely not and this is the thing that most animates me

0:55:50 > 0:55:52about the whole Brexit debate, more than one in five

0:55:52 > 0:55:55of my voters is an EU citizen.

0:55:55 > 0:55:59I speak to many of them every week, knocking on doors.

0:55:59 > 0:56:03They are very, very upset, traumatised I would say,

0:56:03 > 0:56:05about the fact they're being treated as second-class citizens, and they

0:56:05 > 0:56:07feel they do not have a future.

0:56:07 > 0:56:10Give me examples of how they feel like they are treated

0:56:10 > 0:56:11like second-class citizens?

0:56:11 > 0:56:13Well, what we have just talked about.

0:56:13 > 0:56:15Settled status is not the same as the rights they have now.

0:56:15 > 0:56:17You're talking about the transition period?

0:56:17 > 0:56:18People who arrive after March 2019?

0:56:18 > 0:56:22No, settled status.

0:56:22 > 0:56:24This is part of the confusion.

0:56:24 > 0:56:28There are going to be at least five different types of rights you have.

0:56:28 > 0:56:29You might be waiting to acquire settled status,

0:56:29 > 0:56:30have settled status.

0:56:30 > 0:56:32In the transition period, we now find out, contrary

0:56:32 > 0:56:35to what Theresa May led us to believe, you will not

0:56:35 > 0:56:38have the right to settled status, you will have the right

0:56:38 > 0:56:40to indefinite leave to remain after a period.

0:56:40 > 0:56:41I barely understand this.

0:56:41 > 0:56:44Most of the people I am talking to do not understand it and they're

0:56:44 > 0:56:46being treated in an appalling way by this government.

0:56:46 > 0:56:49That is why I think that people will remember that

0:56:49 > 0:56:51when they go and vote in May because this is not...

0:56:51 > 0:56:53Can you imagine treating any other national group

0:56:53 > 0:56:56or ethnic group like this?

0:56:56 > 0:56:59Are you on a sticky wicket in London, which is seen as a Remain

0:56:59 > 0:57:02city, on the basis of what Costanza has said and listening

0:57:02 > 0:57:04to Andy Slaughter, this is going to be extremely difficult

0:57:04 > 0:57:06in these local elections?

0:57:06 > 0:57:08We're not on a sticky wicket.

0:57:08 > 0:57:11Andy and we saw the letter from Neil Coyle, they are attempting

0:57:11 > 0:57:13to scaremonger to win votes at the May election

0:57:13 > 0:57:15but the truth is European Union citizens are welcome here.

0:57:15 > 0:57:23We want them to stay.

0:57:25 > 0:57:27Empty words.

0:57:27 > 0:57:28Let me finish.

0:57:28 > 0:57:30There is a very clear path to acquiring not just permanent

0:57:30 > 0:57:33right to stay but full British citizenship, which we expect

0:57:33 > 0:57:35the vast majority of European Union citizens to do.

0:57:35 > 0:57:37They're welcome to stay here, we're making it easy to stay,

0:57:37 > 0:57:39and they will continue making a massive contribution

0:57:39 > 0:57:43and it is in black and white, it is in the agreement on the 8th

0:57:43 > 0:57:45December, it is in the draft withdrawal agreement, 117 pages

0:57:45 > 0:57:48published by the European Commission last Wednesday, it is there

0:57:48 > 0:57:49in black and white.

0:57:49 > 0:57:50All right.

0:57:50 > 0:57:52We are going to have to finish it there.

0:57:52 > 0:57:54Costanza, thank you very much for coming in.

0:57:54 > 0:57:57That's all we've got time for for the London part of the show.

0:57:57 > 0:57:59My thanks to you for being my guests today.

0:57:59 > 0:58:00Bye-bye.

0:58:00 > 0:58:01welcome back.

0:58:01 > 0:58:03So how about a bit of a break from Brexit?

0:58:03 > 0:58:05This morning the government announced new plans to make it

0:58:05 > 0:58:08easier for more houses to be built, with rules to cut red

0:58:08 > 0:58:11tape so that there can be more homes in areas

0:58:11 > 0:58:12where they are needed the most.

0:58:12 > 0:58:15The government says they will take on what they call the "Nimby

0:58:15 > 0:58:16councils" who don't build enough.

0:58:16 > 0:58:19However, their problem is that a lot of these councils are Conservative.

0:58:19 > 0:58:22So could we be about to see a battle between local

0:58:22 > 0:58:23and central government?

0:58:23 > 0:58:25With me now with hopefully all the answers is Cabinet Office

0:58:25 > 0:58:27Minister David Lidington.

0:58:27 > 0:58:32Thanks very much for coming in.Good morning. If you're going to try and

0:58:32 > 0:58:35build more homes in the south-east of England, which is where the

0:58:35 > 0:58:39demand is highest, these are going to be your own councillors you're

0:58:39 > 0:58:43taking on over this?If you talk to most Conservative councillors they

0:58:43 > 0:58:47will get the need for more homes and their significant growth in house

0:58:47 > 0:58:53building. Actually, if you talk to councils in my area you will see

0:58:53 > 0:58:55councils that are getting on in doing it with one of the fastest new

0:58:55 > 0:58:59house-building rates anywhere in the country.Under this government

0:58:59 > 0:59:03house-building rates have fallen significantly. Fewer new houses a

0:59:03 > 0:59:10year than there were under the Labour government, 223,000 in 2007,

0:59:10 > 0:59:15217,000, fewer now than word being built under the last Labour

0:59:15 > 0:59:19government.The number of new houses last year was 217,000, the

0:59:19 > 0:59:23second-highest annual house-building figure in 30 years. That is not a

0:59:23 > 0:59:27record to be ashamed of. We have also increased considerably the

0:59:27 > 0:59:30spending on affordable homes in the delivery of affordable homes in

0:59:30 > 0:59:34council homes compared with what the Labour government achieved. More

0:59:34 > 0:59:39council houses have been built since 2010 than the entire 13 years in the

0:59:39 > 0:59:42Labour government before that.The number of affordable homes being

0:59:42 > 0:59:47built is going down.

0:59:47 > 0:59:50built is going down. In 2010 it was 61,000, last year was 40,000.This

0:59:50 > 0:59:54is exactly why we have put in £9 billion, an extra 2 billion in the

0:59:54 > 0:59:58last year alone, into the affordable housing programme. What we need to

0:59:58 > 1:00:02do is to get the new homes built. That takes us to the planning

1:00:02 > 1:00:06announcement that is being made tomorrow, with a new national

1:00:06 > 1:00:11planning policy framework for public consultation. Houses and residents'

1:00:11 > 1:00:16groups can feedback their views on that. When I talk to councils I

1:00:16 > 1:00:20find, and I talk to residents concerned about new development,

1:00:20 > 1:00:23what they want is to know that there is going to be the infrastructure,

1:00:23 > 1:00:28there is going to be the public services to support new housing. I

1:00:28 > 1:00:32find increasingly people get the need for new housing.People get the

1:00:32 > 1:00:37need for new housing, they just do not want it anywhere near them. That

1:00:37 > 1:00:42is where the phrase Nimby comes from.I think that is being unfair.

1:00:42 > 1:00:48When I say to

1:00:54 > 1:00:56people, all can your children or grandchildren afford to get on the

1:00:56 > 1:00:58housing ladder, you see the heads nodding, even among older residents.

1:00:58 > 1:01:02They get the importance of this, just as people get the significance

1:01:02 > 1:01:03that we are living independently for longer. That is great, but we also

1:01:03 > 1:01:06need more accommodation, there are more households for any given level

1:01:06 > 1:01:10of population than we had in the past. As well as having the house is

1:01:10 > 1:01:14planned for, so that the locations, as in the new guard in towns and

1:01:14 > 1:01:19cities programme are being properly planned for, you also need the

1:01:19 > 1:01:23infrastructure, the transport, the broadband to support that. That is

1:01:23 > 1:01:27why the housing infrastructure fund has been set up, so that local

1:01:27 > 1:01:30councils can bid for that to support unlocking development opportunities.

1:01:30 > 1:01:39The government has said this morning that Nimbys need to be tackled. But

1:01:39 > 1:01:42the Nimbys and in the Cabinet. You have said this needs to be done in a

1:01:42 > 1:01:45way that protects the green belt. The housing minister says every

1:01:45 > 1:01:50effort must be made to avoid building in the green belt. The

1:01:50 > 1:01:54Prime Minister Minister said that local authorities may only alter

1:01:54 > 1:02:01green belt boundaries in exceptional circumstances.

1:02:03 > 1:02:07circumstances.No, not at all, you are underestimating the way green

1:02:07 > 1:02:13belt is important. If you come back to the Chilterns green belt area,

1:02:13 > 1:02:19for people living in London, living in Luton, High Wycombe, Milton

1:02:19 > 1:02:22Keynes, Watford, these are places expanding, new houses are being

1:02:22 > 1:02:28built. Having that nearby is something that is really important

1:02:28 > 1:02:35so we need to plan housing alongside conservation which is why when the

1:02:35 > 1:02:37planning framework is announced tomorrow and the Prime Minister

1:02:37 > 1:02:42makes her big speech on housing, we are also saying this will be

1:02:42 > 1:02:46developed alongside and taking full account of what Michael Gove and the

1:02:46 > 1:02:50environment Department are doing with a 25 year plans to improve the

1:02:50 > 1:02:54environment of our country.Let me take you back to the speech the

1:02:54 > 1:02:59Prime Minister made on Friday, her Brexit speech. She made it clear one

1:02:59 > 1:03:03of the hard facts was we weren't going to get everything we wanted.

1:03:03 > 1:03:08You are as close as you can beat her thinking on this, what will she

1:03:08 > 1:03:15compromise on?Tempted as I am, I'm not going to go into a detailed

1:03:15 > 1:03:20negotiating position. We accept that what we put forward is ambitious,

1:03:20 > 1:03:25also credible idea for a close economic partnership with the EU in

1:03:25 > 1:03:29the future. The PM said in the text of the speech that neither of us

1:03:29 > 1:03:35will end up with everything they wanted. What we need to do now is

1:03:35 > 1:03:39see the EU's opening position, to sit down and start to work through

1:03:39 > 1:03:47in detail some of these points about the law, how you deliver our

1:03:47 > 1:03:49objectives of as frictionless trade as possible, our economic

1:03:49 > 1:03:52partnership in the future that allows cross-border spy chains to

1:03:52 > 1:03:58continue in a way that works to our advantage and that of the EU 27

1:03:58 > 1:04:02countries alike.The Irish government don't seem to be happy

1:04:02 > 1:04:11about this, Simon Coveney said this morning he doesn't then -- think the

1:04:11 > 1:04:18EU will agree to it so we are no closer to fixing the problem.Simon

1:04:18 > 1:04:21Coveney and the Taoiseach as well as others have also the way to solving

1:04:21 > 1:04:25the responsibilities over the Irish border and avoiding the hard border

1:04:25 > 1:04:31as to do that in the context of an overall EU UK economic partnership

1:04:31 > 1:04:34for the future, and go back to the PM's speech on Friday and she set

1:04:34 > 1:04:41out a number of elements of that. A deal on goods that would mean the

1:04:41 > 1:04:48and the EU recognise each other's standards so British and European

1:04:48 > 1:04:53goods circulated freely without the need for border checks or paperwork.

1:04:53 > 1:04:58That's what the Irish said they don't think the EU will agree to.I

1:04:58 > 1:05:02think it is in the interests of the EU to have this arrangement and

1:05:02 > 1:05:07these sorts of detail are what we need to get into to understand where

1:05:07 > 1:05:12difficulties lie. The Prime Minister also talks about a customs

1:05:12 > 1:05:16arrangement or partnership with the EU 27 in the future that would allow

1:05:16 > 1:05:20us to simplify and eliminate some of these problems. We already have

1:05:20 > 1:05:27agreement on the continuation of the Common travel area which means free

1:05:27 > 1:05:28movement of people across the jurisdiction border between the

1:05:28 > 1:05:35island of Ireland and Ireland and the UK. What the Cabinet are

1:05:35 > 1:05:40committed to, and it was laid out in the PM's speech, is that we see it

1:05:40 > 1:05:44as essential to ensure there is not a hard border on the island of

1:05:44 > 1:05:50Ireland, that every aspect of the Good Friday Agreement, both

1:05:50 > 1:05:55east-west and north-south, is upheld in full.Moving onto President

1:05:55 > 1:05:58Trump, he's threatening tariffs on cars imported into the US which

1:05:58 > 1:06:05would include cars coming from the UK, Jaguar Land Rover brought over

1:06:05 > 1:06:10100,000 into the US. If he makes good on the threat of 10% tariffs,

1:06:10 > 1:06:16what will the UK do about that?At the moment we are part of the EU and

1:06:16 > 1:06:20would be talking with the commission and European partners about our

1:06:20 > 1:06:29collective response to this. I just think that the United States is not

1:06:29 > 1:06:38taking an advisable course. Trade wars don't do anybody any good.But

1:06:38 > 1:06:45you know there's every possibility Donald will go with this so what

1:06:45 > 1:06:49would the EU do?We would have to see what happens. There's a lot of

1:06:49 > 1:06:53concern recently about something comparable as regards to aviation

1:06:53 > 1:06:57and the aircraft we produced in part in Belfast and the American

1:06:57 > 1:07:01authorities at the end of the day to drop back down and said no, that is

1:07:01 > 1:07:06not the way we should be going.We tried in Britain in the 1960s

1:07:06 > 1:07:12getting our car industry from competition. It didn't work, it

1:07:12 > 1:07:15protected inefficiencies, we lost all our export markets because our

1:07:15 > 1:07:21competitors went out and gobble them up and the car industry had to go

1:07:21 > 1:07:25through a very painful restructuring to get to the success story it is

1:07:25 > 1:07:28now. Once we have left the European Union

1:07:28 > 1:07:33and customs union, we will be able to respond to a tariff or trade war

1:07:33 > 1:07:37like this entirely differently so if this were happening in three years,

1:07:37 > 1:07:42what would the British government be able to do in response to American

1:07:42 > 1:07:47president threatening tariffs?That is likely piling hypothesis on

1:07:47 > 1:07:50hypothesis, but it would also depend in part on the nature of the

1:07:50 > 1:07:55agreement that I hope we conclude with the EU on industrial goods and

1:07:55 > 1:07:59cross-border supply chains but we would be free to impose our own

1:07:59 > 1:08:02trade defence measures against any country that is trying to dump on

1:08:02 > 1:08:07the UK market and the bill is currently going through Parliament

1:08:07 > 1:08:12will give the UK authorities the power to do just that.David

1:08:12 > 1:08:17Lidington, thanks for talking to us this morning. We will now turn to

1:08:17 > 1:08:25our expert Anil and what they think it means for the future. Steve, this

1:08:25 > 1:08:29idea of the potential of a trade battle going on between the EU and

1:08:29 > 1:08:34US takes us to part of whether the UK can make up its own responses,

1:08:34 > 1:08:39doesn't it?Yes, and it's very interesting David Lidington saying

1:08:39 > 1:08:44we are leaping several hurdles here because he hopes that post Brexit

1:08:44 > 1:08:53the UK and the EU are lined terms of other sectors. Whether they get that

1:08:53 > 1:08:57sector by sector deal is highly questionable so that's one of the

1:08:57 > 1:09:03several hoops that it is very hard to navigate. If you have a president

1:09:03 > 1:09:06of the United States who is a protectionist butting up tariffs,

1:09:06 > 1:09:10that will have an impact on the rest of the world. No country operates

1:09:10 > 1:09:17alone in this global market. That is the harsh reality. It has been lost

1:09:17 > 1:09:20sometimes in arguments about sovereignty and Britain going it

1:09:20 > 1:09:26alone and the rest of it. It has an immediate impact on every other

1:09:26 > 1:09:30country and they are partly powerless to do very much about it.

1:09:30 > 1:09:38Is Donald Trump threatening this is a clearer example as to why Britain

1:09:38 > 1:09:44needs to leave the customs union, Isabel?I think we will have a

1:09:44 > 1:09:52better deal with the EU than Donald Trump does.

1:09:52 > 1:09:56Trump does. Trump hates the EU, he doesn't hate Britain, he wants

1:09:56 > 1:10:03things to work well for us. He has been very consistent about that and

1:10:03 > 1:10:07always said America first so I agree, it is possible he will go

1:10:07 > 1:10:11ahead with this but also equally it is possible that we will strike

1:10:11 > 1:10:16something very positive with the US. We did promise we will talk about

1:10:16 > 1:10:20something other than Brexit for small parts of the programme so

1:10:20 > 1:10:22let's pick up on the housing announcement coming tomorrow from

1:10:22 > 1:10:30the Government. It feels like every six months or so the Government will

1:10:30 > 1:10:34-- promised they will build more homes, and I being cynical?I think

1:10:34 > 1:10:38what they are promising now is exactly what they promised in the

1:10:38 > 1:10:44White Paper on housing, this is just fleshing it out. It is the exact

1:10:44 > 1:10:48same announcement. That said, what's quite good about this, to some

1:10:48 > 1:10:53extent I think the language is too aggressive about councils and that

1:10:53 > 1:10:58is what Labour is picking up on. For a long time, politicians have

1:10:58 > 1:11:04focused on things which are demand side in the housing market because

1:11:04 > 1:11:10it is sexier. Help to buy, right to buy, and yet they can exacerbate the

1:11:10 > 1:11:14problem because if anything while helping a few people they are

1:11:14 > 1:11:17pushing up prices potentially. What they are doing here unapologetically

1:11:17 > 1:11:22is focusing on the supply side and that's what they need to do. It

1:11:22 > 1:11:26isn't very sexy, it is not on every front page today, the speech

1:11:26 > 1:11:30tomorrow won't have as much of an effect as the speech on Friday but

1:11:30 > 1:11:35this is probably one of the biggest crisis facing the country.Probably

1:11:35 > 1:11:41something voters care more about than Brexit?And the timing of this

1:11:41 > 1:11:45is very interesting, coming up to local elections in London Tories are

1:11:45 > 1:11:50expected to do very badly. Sadiq Khan's record on housing is

1:11:50 > 1:11:54extremely questionable to say the least and I think this is an area

1:11:54 > 1:11:59where the Tory party senses it could be more proactive.Is there enough

1:11:59 > 1:12:03oxygen in the room for people to concentrate on housing for voters to

1:12:03 > 1:12:10get the message or ministers to push this through?Voters have got the

1:12:10 > 1:12:14message. Grandparents understand it even if they don't want house

1:12:14 > 1:12:17building near them because their grandchildren cannot buy because

1:12:17 > 1:12:22they cannot afford to in certain parts of the country so everybody

1:12:22 > 1:12:27agrees about the ens, we need more housing, it is just another means. I

1:12:27 > 1:12:32completely agree that right to buy doesn't address the issue of more

1:12:32 > 1:12:36housing. This does partly but I think the cabinet needs a housing

1:12:36 > 1:12:41minister in the Cabinet accountable and to say right, we are going to

1:12:41 > 1:12:45build this number through various means and I am accountable to make

1:12:45 > 1:12:51sure it happens. It needs that level of focus.At the same time as

1:12:51 > 1:12:57Brexit, it should be housing?Yes, they have the right issue. There are

1:12:57 > 1:13:02many issues, Brexit is sucking up to much energy. There are tonnes of

1:13:02 > 1:13:08shoes we should be focusing on but this is one of them.Excellent,

1:13:08 > 1:13:10thank you for coming in.

1:13:10 > 1:13:11That's all for today.

1:13:11 > 1:13:14Join me again next Sunday at 11am here on BBC One.

1:13:14 > 1:13:21Until then, bye-bye.