11/03/2018

0:00:37 > 0:00:38Morning, everyone.

0:00:38 > 0:00:41I'm Sarah Smith and this is the Sunday Politics.

0:00:41 > 0:00:44I'll be bringing you up to speed on all the political

0:00:44 > 0:00:46comings and goings in Westminster and beyond.

0:00:46 > 0:00:49Coming up in today's programme.

0:00:49 > 0:00:52As the investigation into the nerve agent attack in Salisbury continues,

0:00:52 > 0:00:55we'll be taking to the former Home Secretary Jack Straw

0:00:55 > 0:00:59and former Security Minister, Pauline Neville Jones.

0:00:59 > 0:01:00Is there room for more spending?

0:01:00 > 0:01:03Ahead of his spring statement this week, the Chancellor Philip Hammond

0:01:03 > 0:01:06has hinted austerity could be over as he said there was "light

0:01:06 > 0:01:14at the end of the tunnel".

0:01:14 > 0:01:16We join the Universities minister Sam Gyimah on what's jokingly been

0:01:16 > 0:01:18called a "punishment tour" of the country -

0:01:18 > 0:01:23trying to attract students to the Conservative Party.

0:01:23 > 0:01:26Most of my friends always slander the Conservative name saying it's

0:01:26 > 0:01:30only for middle aged men who want to benefit from themselves.At first I

0:01:30 > 0:01:35was like, I'm not going to say it. One of my flatmates was like, if you

0:01:35 > 0:01:38are not Labour, don't talk to me and I was like OK.

0:01:38 > 0:01:41In London, the Liberal Democrat leader Vince Cable tells us why he's

0:01:41 > 0:01:47confident the party can make gains in May's local elections.

0:01:53 > 0:01:55All that coming up in the programme.

0:01:55 > 0:01:58And as usual we've got three Westminster insiders who will take

0:01:58 > 0:02:00us behind the headlines and tell us what's really going on.

0:02:00 > 0:02:04Today I'm joined by Tom Newton Dunn, Dia Chakravarty and George Eaton.

0:02:04 > 0:02:07The unfolding events over the past week in the cathedral city

0:02:07 > 0:02:09of Salisbury could have been taken straight from the pages

0:02:09 > 0:02:11of a spy thriller.

0:02:11 > 0:02:13The poisoning of a Russian former double agent who had passed secrets

0:02:13 > 0:02:17to Britain and moved to Salisbury after a 2010 spy swap, involved

0:02:17 > 0:02:20the use of a sinister nerve agent.

0:02:20 > 0:02:23It has shocked the country with the finger of suspicion

0:02:23 > 0:02:30pointing firmly at Moscow.

0:02:30 > 0:02:34The big story of the week started in Salisbury after a former

0:02:34 > 0:02:36Russian double agent, Sergei Skripal, and his daughter

0:02:36 > 0:02:39Yulia and the policeman who went to their aid all mysteriously fell

0:02:39 > 0:02:47ill because an as yet unidentified nerve agent.

0:02:47 > 0:02:5112 years ago, Alexander Litvinenko was killed by polonium 210.

0:02:51 > 0:02:55Was this more Russian foul play?

0:02:55 > 0:02:58Boris Johnson was quick to retaliate, saying there could be

0:02:58 > 0:03:01implications for this summer's World Cup in Russia.

0:03:01 > 0:03:06I think it will be very difficult to imagine that UK representation

0:03:06 > 0:03:09in that event could go ahead in the normal way.

0:03:09 > 0:03:11Did he mean the England team?

0:03:11 > 0:03:13The Prime Minister explained.

0:03:13 > 0:03:16The point the Foreign Secretary was making yesterday was that,

0:03:16 > 0:03:18depending on what comes out in relation to the investigation

0:03:18 > 0:03:22into the attack on the two individuals that took place

0:03:22 > 0:03:25in Salisbury, that it might be appropriate for the government

0:03:25 > 0:03:29to look at whether ministers and other dignitaries should attend

0:03:29 > 0:03:32the World Cup in Russia.

0:03:32 > 0:03:35Russian state TV mocked the Foreign Secretary for his comments,

0:03:35 > 0:03:39but the government's firm language persisted.

0:03:39 > 0:03:45The use of a nerve agent on UK soil is a brazen and reckless act.

0:03:45 > 0:03:52This was attempted murder in the most cruel and public way.

0:03:52 > 0:03:55We still can't get through a week without mentioning the B word

0:03:55 > 0:03:58as the Chancellor delivered the latest big Brexit speech.

0:03:58 > 0:04:01He's determined to get a good deal for the city.

0:04:01 > 0:04:05We still can't get through a week without mentioning the B word

0:04:05 > 0:04:08So I'm clear not only that it is possible to include

0:04:08 > 0:04:11financial services within a trade deal, but that it is very much

0:04:11 > 0:04:12in our mutual interest to do so.

0:04:12 > 0:04:14Perhaps unsurprisingly the EU disagreed.

0:04:14 > 0:04:17Also when it comes to financial services, life will be

0:04:17 > 0:04:21different after Brexit.

0:04:21 > 0:04:25The EU had other things to worry about, though, as Donald Trump put

0:04:25 > 0:04:28forward his highly controversial plan to make American steel

0:04:28 > 0:04:31and aluminium great again.

0:04:31 > 0:04:34Surrounded by metal workers, the President signed proclamations

0:04:34 > 0:04:39to impose a 25% tariff on steel and a 10% tariff on aluminium

0:04:39 > 0:04:42imports into the US.

0:04:42 > 0:04:46The European Union has not treated us well and it's been a very,

0:04:46 > 0:04:49very unfair trade situation.

0:04:49 > 0:04:52Claims of Parliamentary bullying and sexual harassment hit

0:04:52 > 0:04:54the headlines with some of the allegations going

0:04:54 > 0:04:56all the way to the top.

0:04:56 > 0:05:00Back in 2010, a woman called Kate Emms took up the position

0:05:00 > 0:05:03as John Bercow's private secretary.

0:05:03 > 0:05:07But she stood down from that post after less than a year.

0:05:07 > 0:05:10Her colleagues told Newsnight that this is because Mr Bercow's

0:05:10 > 0:05:14bullying left her unable to continue in that job.

0:05:14 > 0:05:16Theresa May enthusiastically welcomed Saudi royalty

0:05:16 > 0:05:19to Downing Street this week.

0:05:19 > 0:05:24Mohammed bin Salman was even treated to lunch at the Palace.

0:05:24 > 0:05:31Billboards sprung up extolling in the crown prince's virtues.

0:05:31 > 0:05:33Supporters of the man they call Mr Everything say

0:05:33 > 0:05:34he is a great reformer.

0:05:34 > 0:05:37But protests surrounding UK arms sales were also highly visible

0:05:37 > 0:05:39and with Saudi's intervention in Yemen ongoing, the visit

0:05:39 > 0:05:40angered Jeremy Corbyn.

0:05:40 > 0:05:44British arms sales have sharply increased and British military

0:05:44 > 0:05:47advisers are directing the war.

0:05:47 > 0:05:51It cannot be right that her government...

0:05:51 > 0:05:55Mr Speaker, it cannot be right that her government is colluding

0:05:55 > 0:06:01in what the United Nations says is evidence of war crimes.

0:06:01 > 0:06:04Clearly riled, Theresa May got her own back, calling

0:06:04 > 0:06:08Jeremy Corbyn out on the eve of International Women's Day.

0:06:08 > 0:06:10Can I thank the Right Honourable Gentleman

0:06:10 > 0:06:13for telling me that it is International Women's Day tomorrow.

0:06:13 > 0:06:16LAUGHTER.

0:06:16 > 0:06:24I think that's what's called "mansplaining".

0:06:24 > 0:06:32Tom, Dia and George were watching that with me.

0:06:35 > 0:06:36Now some insight and analysis into what's going on behind the

0:06:36 > 0:06:41headlines. The big story of the week is obviously the poisoning of Sergei

0:06:41 > 0:06:44Skripal and whether or not Russia was involved. A lot of people have

0:06:44 > 0:06:49been quick to assume that President Putin sanctioned this and it's a

0:06:49 > 0:06:53Russian state operation but can we be sure of that?Reasonably sure,

0:06:53 > 0:06:56yes, clearly there is no physical proof to produce at the moment. I

0:06:56 > 0:07:01think by the end of last week the government were in no doubt that

0:07:01 > 0:07:05this was ordered by the Russian state and in particular Vladimir

0:07:05 > 0:07:10Putin, who, under Russian state rules, has to sign of all foreign

0:07:10 > 0:07:14assassinations personally since rule change in 2006. The reason I think

0:07:14 > 0:07:18they are almost certain about this is quite frankly no one else has a

0:07:18 > 0:07:23motive to do that. Who would want to do a better job in spite of analogy

0:07:23 > 0:07:30on an old colonel living quietly in Salisbury? Not the people have the

0:07:30 > 0:07:34modes of delivery to do this, to pass a nerve agent, chemical

0:07:34 > 0:07:39weapons, on Britain's streets. Thirdly, this will be the killer,

0:07:39 > 0:07:44the scientific proof it was an extremely rare nerve agent, used,

0:07:44 > 0:07:49not one of the more widely available once you see in things like Syria,

0:07:49 > 0:07:52it's a rare particular type which has only been known to be produced

0:07:52 > 0:08:00in one or two laboratories in the world, one of them is in Moscow. The

0:08:00 > 0:08:03Moscow foreign spy service. What is fascinating is not just was Vladimir

0:08:03 > 0:08:08Putin responsible? It is why he wanted us to know he was

0:08:08 > 0:08:12responsible, because he left such a massive calling card, and that has

0:08:12 > 0:08:19been really bothering cabinet ministers in the last week.Dia, we

0:08:19 > 0:08:22had from the Chief Medical Officer who said traces of this nerve agent

0:08:22 > 0:08:26has been found in the restaurant where Sergei Skripal and his

0:08:26 > 0:08:30daughter were eating and 500 people were there at the same time and they

0:08:30 > 0:08:33should wash their clothes and clean their possessions that were with

0:08:33 > 0:08:38them. There is a small rescue but there is a risk. Frightening news

0:08:38 > 0:08:40like that is what drives home to people why it matters this is

0:08:40 > 0:08:45happening in the UK.Absolutely and there are so many questions about

0:08:45 > 0:08:48this, even before we do want to who was doing this. That's very

0:08:48 > 0:08:53important. This also questions about how the whole thing has been

0:08:53 > 0:08:57handled, seven days, and they are now telling these terrified

0:08:57 > 0:09:02residents to wash their clothes and possessions. Is that going to be

0:09:02 > 0:09:08enough? What exactly is this agent? If we see people in scary laboratory

0:09:08 > 0:09:13suits walking around, doing what they need to do, a quarantine going

0:09:13 > 0:09:19on, is it enough to say go and wash your clothes seven days later? The

0:09:19 > 0:09:22communication around it, I understand it is sensitive, that I

0:09:22 > 0:09:28think it has been dire. Really quite woeful. If I was living in Salisbury

0:09:28 > 0:09:34I would be very, very worried. George, the UK Government, once the

0:09:34 > 0:09:38investigation has finished and they decide whether this was a

0:09:38 > 0:09:41state-sponsored assassination, they need to decide how to respond. All

0:09:41 > 0:09:45we have practically heard of so far is some rubber mats might not go to

0:09:45 > 0:09:50the World Cup in Russia, presumably will have to do come up with

0:09:50 > 0:09:53something better than that -- diplomats. What can we do that

0:09:53 > 0:09:58Russia will care about?The pressure from some Labour Party and

0:09:58 > 0:10:04Conservative MPs is to introduce a version of the Magnitsky Act, which

0:10:04 > 0:10:08means it's easier to freeze the assets of Russians suspected of

0:10:08 > 0:10:12human rights abuses or corruption, and expel them, but Britain is

0:10:12 > 0:10:16severely limited and I think it's worth asking the question why did

0:10:16 > 0:10:21Russia choose this moment to target Britain? We are set to leave the

0:10:21 > 0:10:24European Union, huge burdens on governments, stretching the

0:10:24 > 0:10:30government bandwidth to its limits, and Donald Trump and the USA who we

0:10:30 > 0:10:33supposedly have a special relationship with, is imposing

0:10:33 > 0:10:36tariffs on steel and has not made any robust intervention over this,

0:10:36 > 0:10:41despite the fact he normally rushes to tweet when there is a terrorist

0:10:41 > 0:10:45attack on British soil after making unhelpful remarks. He has not been

0:10:45 > 0:10:49standing shoulder to shoulder with Britain in this instance.There has

0:10:49 > 0:10:54been a suggestion this should come up at the next Nato summit in

0:10:54 > 0:10:58Brussels, and they could be looking for some kind of coordinated

0:10:58 > 0:11:04response from international allies. Is that likely?It's difficult to

0:11:04 > 0:11:09see at the moment. Russia's strength here is significant and Vladimir

0:11:09 > 0:11:12Putin, such a brazen act, clearly he does not feel Britain has the

0:11:12 > 0:11:18capacity to respond. Last December, when we were short of gas, the one

0:11:18 > 0:11:23country we turn to was Russia.We will be back to talk about the other

0:11:23 > 0:11:25stories during the programme.

0:11:25 > 0:11:27The poisoning of Sergei Skripal and his daughter carries

0:11:27 > 0:11:29echoes of the murder of Alexander Litvinenko,

0:11:29 > 0:11:31the ex KGB officer who died after drinking tea laced

0:11:31 > 0:11:35with radioactive polonium 210 in a London hotel in 2006.

0:11:35 > 0:11:38And this morning, his widow, Marina Litvinenko urged Theresa May

0:11:38 > 0:11:44to adopt American-style laws that are tougher on Russia.

0:11:44 > 0:11:50You need to be very selective who you are friends with. And when you

0:11:50 > 0:11:53allow people with money to come to your country and make a business,

0:11:53 > 0:11:57you need to be sure what kind of money these people try to bring to

0:11:57 > 0:12:02your country because very often this money is stolen from Russian people

0:12:02 > 0:12:12and sometimes it is a very serious crime behind it. I'm

0:12:12 > 0:12:17crime behind it. I'm absolutely asking this question to unite this

0:12:17 > 0:12:22action already done in the United States, in Europe. I think the UK

0:12:22 > 0:12:23has to do the same steps.

0:12:23 > 0:12:26Joining me now from Edinburgh is the former Home and Foreign

0:12:26 > 0:12:28Secretary, Jack Straw.

0:12:28 > 0:12:35Thank you very much for joining us this morning. Do you agree that the

0:12:35 > 0:12:39UK needs to introduce tougher laws, the likes of which the US has?I do

0:12:39 > 0:12:45think we should do this now. I think have to take this very careful

0:12:45 > 0:12:50step-by-step way, so I think the approach of Amber Rudd and her

0:12:50 > 0:12:55security minister, Ben Wallace, is the right one. Jumping to

0:12:55 > 0:12:58conclusions in this situation is not a sensible way to proceed. The other

0:12:58 > 0:13:02thing we have to think about very carefully, when it comes to those

0:13:02 > 0:13:05who are saying something must be done and if you are in government,

0:13:05 > 0:13:09you get this all the time, in situations like this, something has

0:13:09 > 0:13:13got to be done, is what happens when you have to get back to normality? I

0:13:13 > 0:13:19often reflect on the sanctions were imposed to Zimbabwe for the

0:13:19 > 0:13:28different situation but there are parallels. In retrospect, Robert

0:13:28 > 0:13:33Mugabe was a very bad man, but in retrospect I often wonder if it was

0:13:33 > 0:13:40a sensible thing to do. In the end we had to get the troops down again.

0:13:40 > 0:13:44It was very tricky so people need to think very carefully indeed. This is

0:13:44 > 0:13:47on the assumption the Russian state was behind this, which has not yet

0:13:47 > 0:13:54been approved or announced.If we do establish that and work on the

0:13:54 > 0:13:58presumption for now and I understand your reservations, would President

0:13:58 > 0:14:04Putin care if we were to try and institute some kind of sanctions or

0:14:04 > 0:14:07punishments or does it just increase the siege mentality Russia is under

0:14:07 > 0:14:11threat from the rest of the world which in many ways bolstered his

0:14:11 > 0:14:16position in advance of the elections coming up soon?If we were to do it

0:14:16 > 0:14:20unilaterally, just the UK, he wouldn't careful stop with the EU,

0:14:20 > 0:14:27and more other major allies including the USA, he might take

0:14:27 > 0:14:32notice but frankly, I think he regarded as a medal if we were

0:14:32 > 0:14:37simply to do it by ourselves and he knows that, post the collapse of the

0:14:37 > 0:14:41Berlin Wall and the Soviet Union in the early 1990s, there is a huge

0:14:41 > 0:14:46amount of Russian money in the UK, particularly in London, and a

0:14:46 > 0:14:50Magnitsky Act won't make that much difference to the level of

0:14:50 > 0:14:54dependence of some very highly respectable British London based

0:14:54 > 0:15:01financial institutions with Russian money.

0:15:02 > 0:15:06With the Alexander Litvinenko case, an enquiry two tiers to get to the

0:15:06 > 0:15:11bottom of what happened there, and could only conclude that it was

0:15:11 > 0:15:16probably orchestrated by the Russian state. Can you take any sort of

0:15:16 > 0:15:21action on the basis of something probably being true?People need to

0:15:21 > 0:15:28bear in mind the example of Iraq. The evidence against Saddam Hussein

0:15:28 > 0:15:32having and continuing to have biological weapons was overwhelming.

0:15:32 > 0:15:38The question came up in United Nations Security Council

0:15:38 > 0:15:43resolutions, passed unanimously. That is what Tony Blair and I used

0:15:43 > 0:15:46almost 15 years ago to persuade people to go to war against Iraq,

0:15:46 > 0:15:51and it turned out to be completely incorrect, so you've got to be

0:15:51 > 0:15:55really careful. I have the scars literally on my back in respect of

0:15:55 > 0:15:59this. In the heat of the moment, with people in the House of Commons

0:15:59 > 0:16:04and the newspapers screeching, something 's got to be done, being

0:16:04 > 0:16:12non-explicit about what... Moreover, we shouldn't descend to the level of

0:16:12 > 0:16:16the criminal justice system in the Russian Federation or other states

0:16:16 > 0:16:24like that. There are demands today from some Conservatives to ban the

0:16:24 > 0:16:32Russia Today programme.The Shadow Chancellor said today that he

0:16:32 > 0:16:35doesn't think Labour MPs will be appearing on there in the future.

0:16:35 > 0:16:39Will you do the same?I have not appeared on there for some time, but

0:16:39 > 0:16:44I will make a decision on my own terms. We have to be careful about

0:16:44 > 0:16:50doing that in the absence of evidence. Far better for Britain's

0:16:50 > 0:16:56position in the world to have high standards of probity. It's better to

0:16:56 > 0:17:01bear in mind that well intentioned people who do not lie at all,

0:17:01 > 0:17:05including myself, and the House of Commons by a huge majority, and

0:17:05 > 0:17:09public opinion at the time, came to the wrong decision with respect to

0:17:09 > 0:17:14whether or not Saddam Hussein still had biological weapons on the basis

0:17:14 > 0:17:19of probabilities. That is the difficulty here. People will of

0:17:19 > 0:17:24course be very impatient indeed to have a culprit here, and obviously

0:17:24 > 0:17:28stacking it up on the basis of circumstantial evidence, you can

0:17:28 > 0:17:33make a very good case that it is the Russian state, but we need a bit of

0:17:33 > 0:17:38sobriety before we come to that conclusion. Thank God that Amber

0:17:38 > 0:17:42Rudd is the Home Secretary at the moment. Someone else I could think

0:17:42 > 0:17:48of in the British Cabinet, and she is taking a very measured approach

0:17:48 > 0:17:50to this.

0:17:50 > 0:17:54Here with me now is Pauline Neville Jones, who was Security

0:17:54 > 0:17:55and Counter Terrorism Minister under David Cameron, when Theresa May

0:17:55 > 0:17:58was Home Secretary.

0:17:58 > 0:18:02That was fascinating, listening to Jack Straw drawing parallels with

0:18:02 > 0:18:06Iraq and what was supposedly the evidence of chemical and biological

0:18:06 > 0:18:10weapons there, saying we have to be very careful about pointing the

0:18:10 > 0:18:14finger of blame. With your security experience, will we ever be able to

0:18:14 > 0:18:18establish whether this was sanctioned by the Russians?I doubt

0:18:18 > 0:18:23the Russian state will admit it was involved. In order to get absolute

0:18:23 > 0:18:28proof, what we needed with Litvinenko was to have a trial.

0:18:28 > 0:18:33There hasn't been a trial because the Russians wouldn't cooperate. I

0:18:33 > 0:18:37think it's right for the government to be cautious about saying anything

0:18:37 > 0:18:41now, because it mustn't be seen to lead the investigation and therefore

0:18:41 > 0:18:46damage it, but once we have established a degree of probability

0:18:46 > 0:18:51about the cause, that is the time for action. I think the chances of

0:18:51 > 0:18:55it not being connected with Russia in some way are very low.The means

0:18:55 > 0:19:01would point to that, but what is the motive? This is a retired agent

0:19:01 > 0:19:07who's been living here for years. Came as part of the spy as well. The

0:19:07 > 0:19:13unwritten rule of espionage is that you don't touch spies. What dangers

0:19:13 > 0:19:21does he pose to the Russian regime? I think we simply don't know the

0:19:21 > 0:19:25full story. There's plenty of evidence that the Russian regime is

0:19:25 > 0:19:30pretty vicious. Even if he was part of a swap, I don't think you can

0:19:30 > 0:19:34exclude the fact that the Russian state might decide to take action

0:19:34 > 0:19:40against him.Looking at pictures of him and his daughter there. It's

0:19:40 > 0:19:45difficult to see what threat they posed to the Russian state. Is it

0:19:45 > 0:19:47not worth considering the possibility that they may have been

0:19:47 > 0:19:57involved in something else that isn't technically state faction --

0:19:57 > 0:20:01state sanctioned?If possible. It is possible that the Mafia was

0:20:01 > 0:20:05involved. The question is, what lay behind the Mafia and where did the

0:20:05 > 0:20:11nerve agent come from? Is it possible to come from elsewhere than

0:20:11 > 0:20:18a state laboratory? It's difficult to imagine that the threat isn't

0:20:18 > 0:20:24going to go back to Russia somehow. Is it possible to take action

0:20:24 > 0:20:28against wealthy Russian oligarchs living in London, even if we change

0:20:28 > 0:20:35the laws and bring in something like the Magnitsky act? Mrs Litvinenko

0:20:35 > 0:20:39got a letter from Theresa May, Home Secretary at the time, saying that

0:20:39 > 0:20:43we want to make sure nothing like this happens again in the UK, and

0:20:43 > 0:20:48now it has.There are already powers which the government can use. One of

0:20:48 > 0:20:51the reasons why there was an argument in the Commons the other

0:20:51 > 0:20:57day about this so-called Magnitsky amendment was that the government

0:20:57 > 0:21:03said, we've got the powers. You may say, we need to use these powers,

0:21:03 > 0:21:08for example to investigate people who have unexplained wealth. There

0:21:08 > 0:21:13are things we can do.These are people who are not necessarily

0:21:13 > 0:21:19linked to Putin and the regime, so these are two distinct things.They

0:21:19 > 0:21:24are. You have to be careful how you do this, and it requires resources.

0:21:24 > 0:21:28This is a complicated job. Jack Straw put his finger on it when he

0:21:28 > 0:21:32said, we need to act in concert with allies. This is the thing that the

0:21:32 > 0:21:38Russians really are going to take notice of. At the moment, it's fair

0:21:38 > 0:21:44to say that although we are Aljaz overtime, we have gradually

0:21:44 > 0:21:49increased the pressure. With sanctions, and Nato have increased

0:21:49 > 0:21:53measures on its borders, but we still have a great deal of

0:21:53 > 0:21:56harassment from the Russians. They are taking action in people's

0:21:56 > 0:22:03politics. They are conducting cyber attacks. We need to act as an

0:22:03 > 0:22:08alliance so that the Russians really do believe, and they seek positive

0:22:08 > 0:22:13evidence of it, that action against one is an action against all, and

0:22:13 > 0:22:18collective action follows. We need to have a strategy that brings

0:22:18 > 0:22:24together what we do militarily, what we do to protect our citizens in the

0:22:24 > 0:22:28cyber sphere, what we do in broadcasting, so we have an all

0:22:28 > 0:22:35encompassing way of dealing with Russia.Thank you very much for

0:22:35 > 0:22:37coming to talk to us.

0:22:37 > 0:22:39The new Universities Minister, Sam Gyimah, has set himself

0:22:39 > 0:22:40a rather ambitious task.

0:22:40 > 0:22:43Travelling up and down the country, he's trying to attract students

0:22:43 > 0:22:44to the Conservative Party.

0:22:44 > 0:22:47With just one in five voters aged between 18 and 24 voting Tory

0:22:47 > 0:22:49in the 2017 election, it's been jokingly called

0:22:49 > 0:22:50his "punishment tour".

0:22:50 > 0:22:52Our reporter Elizabeth Glinka joined Sam on his visit

0:22:52 > 0:22:54to Canterbury Christ Church University.

0:22:54 > 0:23:02And just to warn you, her report contains flashing images.

0:23:13 > 0:23:15Was that a youth quake?

0:23:15 > 0:23:17Reports of a massive increase in young voters at

0:23:17 > 0:23:20the last general election may have been exaggerated.

0:23:20 > 0:23:23# I got the big size 12s on my feet...

0:23:23 > 0:23:26Nationally, the turnout didn't really change, but of

0:23:26 > 0:23:32the young people that did vote, a whopping 67% went for Labour.

0:23:32 > 0:23:34And in a place like Canterbury, where there

0:23:34 > 0:23:37are more than 30,000 students, it's thought that their votes played

0:23:37 > 0:23:42a big part in the city electing its first ever Labour MP.

0:23:42 > 0:23:43Canterbury.

0:23:43 > 0:23:46This has been Conservative since World War I.

0:23:46 > 0:23:53An extraordinary surge in their share, up 20% here.

0:23:53 > 0:23:54In general, everyone just always seems to think

0:23:54 > 0:23:56that the Conservatives are always doing something wrong,

0:23:56 > 0:23:59so even if you don't know about the Conservatives,

0:23:59 > 0:24:01all you hear, you just think negative things about it.

0:24:01 > 0:24:03Most of my friends always slander the Conservative name, saying,

0:24:03 > 0:24:07"It's only for middle-aged men who want the benefit from themselves."

0:24:07 > 0:24:09Do you think you have to be quite brave to

0:24:09 > 0:24:10say, "I am a Conservative?"

0:24:10 > 0:24:11Yeah.

0:24:11 > 0:24:13At first, I was like, OK, I'm not going

0:24:13 > 0:24:16to say anything to my friends, because they will just kick off.

0:24:16 > 0:24:19One of my flatmates was like, "If you are not a Labour

0:24:19 > 0:24:20voter, don't talk to me."

0:24:20 > 0:24:22Labour had a lot of backing.

0:24:22 > 0:24:24They had people like AJ Tracey jumping on.

0:24:24 > 0:24:26So once they see that, everyone kind of runs

0:24:26 > 0:24:27to it, like, let's vote Labour.

0:24:27 > 0:24:29# Tracksuit grey, black, blue

0:24:29 > 0:24:31# I was just a hope-filled kid like you...

0:24:31 > 0:24:34AJ Tracey is just one of any number of current music acts who publicly

0:24:34 > 0:24:36endorsed the Labour Party at the last general election,

0:24:36 > 0:24:39helping to build a brand which was apparently three times

0:24:39 > 0:24:44more attractive to young voters.

0:24:44 > 0:24:47To be fair, it's not as if there was some sort of golden

0:24:47 > 0:24:50era of Conservative hipsters, but the figures suggest

0:24:50 > 0:24:54things are getting worse.

0:24:54 > 0:24:57And that's why the new Universities Minister, Sam Gyimah,

0:24:57 > 0:25:00is currently on a nationwide tour, including here in Canterbury,

0:25:00 > 0:25:03where he is attempting to at least start a conversation

0:25:03 > 0:25:06with a generation of voters who see his party as old, male and stale.

0:25:06 > 0:25:10Minister, this seems a good time to jump in.

0:25:10 > 0:25:15This is an incredibly difficult job, isn't it, convincing young people

0:25:15 > 0:25:17to vote Conservative?

0:25:17 > 0:25:21We do have our work cut out for us, but I think the first thing to do

0:25:21 > 0:25:23is actually to be on campus.

0:25:23 > 0:25:26If we allow Jeremy Corbyn to be the only one on campus, then we only

0:25:26 > 0:25:29have ourselves to blame.

0:25:29 > 0:25:32Many students will say to you, well, it's fine, you're having

0:25:32 > 0:25:34a review on student fees and many other things.

0:25:34 > 0:25:37The Labour Party's promising us they're going to get rid of fees.

0:25:37 > 0:25:39We know what happens when you promised something for free.

0:25:39 > 0:25:42Numbers are going to be capped, which means fewer people

0:25:42 > 0:25:44going to university.

0:25:44 > 0:25:46It's the well off that are going to do it.

0:25:46 > 0:25:48That's not what we're about.

0:25:48 > 0:25:50I'm not really worried about Jeremy Corbyn's free

0:25:50 > 0:25:52for all offer, because it's not realistic, and he can't deliver it,

0:25:52 > 0:25:55and we only need to look at countries like Scotland to see

0:25:55 > 0:25:57that it's not going to work.

0:25:57 > 0:25:59And what reaction are you expecting when you head in there?

0:25:59 > 0:26:02Well, I thought it might be rowdy like PMQs.

0:26:02 > 0:26:03I've no idea.

0:26:03 > 0:26:05I haven't had the mob treatment anywhere yet so far.

0:26:05 > 0:26:07# Your face ain't big for my boot

0:26:07 > 0:26:08# Kick up the yout

0:26:08 > 0:26:11# I know that I kick up the yout...

0:26:11 > 0:26:14There might not have been a youth quake nationally,

0:26:14 > 0:26:17but there was a bit of a youth quake in Canterbury, and I want to listen

0:26:17 > 0:26:19and I want to understand.

0:26:19 > 0:26:21You know, we've had enough of austerity politics.

0:26:21 > 0:26:24We've had enough of student fees, things like that, and we've seen

0:26:24 > 0:26:28the NHS get less and less funded over time.

0:26:28 > 0:26:29And it's hard to ignore those things.

0:26:29 > 0:26:32You know, we are going to take action against you.

0:26:32 > 0:26:34# Bros in my ear saying "Stormz, don't do it"

0:26:34 > 0:26:36# Devil on my shoulder I don't lack

0:26:36 > 0:26:39# Hit 'em with a crowbar, I don't scrap...

0:26:39 > 0:26:41Well, lots of discussion, some of it a bit feisty,

0:26:41 > 0:26:43but did the Minister win any hearts and minds?

0:26:43 > 0:26:45He's really good at talking to students, and he's

0:26:45 > 0:26:47here to talk to everyone.

0:26:47 > 0:26:49Would it make you feel differently about voting Conservative?

0:26:49 > 0:26:53I took from your comments that you were not a Conservative voter.

0:26:53 > 0:26:55Definitely not, but I did think he made some good points,

0:26:55 > 0:26:57and he was very measured.

0:26:57 > 0:27:00It's quite clear that there are a number of people here who have

0:27:00 > 0:27:03been seduced by Jeremy Corbyn, but I think the purpose of this

0:27:03 > 0:27:05is to let them realise that there is a Conservative voice,

0:27:05 > 0:27:08there is a Conservative point of view, and that as a minister

0:27:08 > 0:27:11I am here to listen.

0:27:11 > 0:27:12Clearly a smart man.

0:27:12 > 0:27:16I'm not sure it's better or worse to have a smart

0:27:16 > 0:27:18Tory or a stupid Tory, but he knew what he was

0:27:18 > 0:27:20talking about, even though I disagree with him.

0:27:20 > 0:27:23Would it make you think twice about voting Conservative?

0:27:23 > 0:27:27No, I will never vote Conservative in my life.

0:27:27 > 0:27:33So as the sun sets in Canterbury, there's still a long way to go.

0:27:33 > 0:27:40And Universities Minister Sam Gymiah joins me now.

0:27:41 > 0:27:46A smart Tory. That is a compliment from one of the students! Do you

0:27:46 > 0:27:51think you persuaded many of them to vote Tory?The point of the exercise

0:27:51 > 0:27:56was not to persuade people to vote Conservative. As Universities

0:27:56 > 0:28:00Minister, I'm very conscious that students are investing a

0:28:00 > 0:28:05considerable amount of money in their education, so they should have

0:28:05 > 0:28:09a voice in the corridors of power. Gone are the days that the

0:28:09 > 0:28:14Universities Minister 's spends time with the chancellors and not the

0:28:14 > 0:28:19students. Jeremy Corbyn has a voice on the campus, and if we allow that

0:28:19 > 0:28:23to continue, we only have ourselves to blame. The starting point in the

0:28:23 > 0:28:26process is listening and engaging, rather than going in there to preach

0:28:26 > 0:28:32to them about what their problems and answers are.You have a mountain

0:28:32 > 0:28:37to climb with young people. Let's have a look at the numbers. At the

0:28:37 > 0:28:43last election, between 18 to 24-year-olds, 67% voted Labour.

0:28:43 > 0:28:50Unless you can change those minds, you have a generational problem with

0:28:50 > 0:28:52voters, and you will not see Conservative governments in the

0:28:52 > 0:28:57future, unless people change their minds.What I am doing at the moment

0:28:57 > 0:29:01is pressing, which is why the party is beginning to engage with students

0:29:01 > 0:29:04at this level. A number of things have come up as I've travelled

0:29:04 > 0:29:09around the country that we can address. Austerity keeps coming up.

0:29:09 > 0:29:15We stopped making the case for why we had to reduce the deficit from

0:29:15 > 0:29:19the extreme levels that we inherited from the Labour Party. One man said

0:29:19 > 0:29:32to me, all I have ever heard the Conservatives talk

0:29:32 > 0:29:35about is austerity. It must be your ideology. That is clearly not the

0:29:35 > 0:29:38case. It is a matter of necessity, not ideology.We have the spring

0:29:38 > 0:29:40statement coming up next week. The Chancellor has said this morning

0:29:40 > 0:29:44that we are in a much better financial position at the moment

0:29:44 > 0:29:48then we have been, but it doesn't sound like he's going to end

0:29:48 > 0:29:52austerity. Would you encourage him to do so?This brings statement is

0:29:52 > 0:29:57an update on the public finances. But he is going to point further

0:29:57 > 0:30:02ahead to the budget in the autumn, and he doesn't seem to be talking

0:30:02 > 0:30:06about the increased public spending you think will attract people to the

0:30:06 > 0:30:10Tories.We are not going to say we are going to return to discredited

0:30:10 > 0:30:15economic policies of 40 years ago. What he should be saying to young

0:30:15 > 0:30:20people is that the balanced approach that he is pursuing, in a world

0:30:20 > 0:30:24where we have technological challenge and a global market

0:30:24 > 0:30:28economy, the Conservatives are uniquely placed to deliver

0:30:28 > 0:30:33prosperity for them. Another issue that comes up is our motives. When

0:30:33 > 0:30:37we talk about economic prosperity, people feel it is for the few.

0:30:37 > 0:30:45Sometimes I have to explain that the top rate of tax has been higher

0:30:45 > 0:30:48under the Conservatives, and that the top 1% pay 20% of income tax.

0:30:48 > 0:30:54They didn't know that. We need to talk about -- we need to persuade

0:30:54 > 0:30:57them that when we talk about economic prosperity, it is their

0:30:57 > 0:31:02future we are talking about.

0:31:02 > 0:31:06You addressed tuition fees in the film but look at maintenance grants

0:31:06 > 0:31:09being cut by this government so the poorer students to go to university

0:31:09 > 0:31:13will lead with larger debt than those from better off backgrounds.

0:31:13 > 0:31:18When that is their experience right now on campus, no wonder they keep

0:31:18 > 0:31:23thinking you are looking after the better off and not the

0:31:23 > 0:31:26disadvantaged.Canterbury has the best proportion of students went

0:31:26 > 0:31:29university for the first time in their families. Many of those would

0:31:29 > 0:31:38not be at university at all had we pursue the Jeremy Corbyn policy.

0:31:39 > 0:31:43Jeremy Corbyn is promising to abolish tuition fees so that would

0:31:43 > 0:31:46make it easier for students to go to university.Once you make university

0:31:46 > 0:31:50free you can't have a current policy we have which is that the numbers

0:31:50 > 0:31:56who can go to university are capped. At a time when the numbers were not

0:31:56 > 0:32:00capped, our own history, very few people went to university and mentor

0:32:00 > 0:32:05very few poor people went university. A consequence of the

0:32:05 > 0:32:07Conservative policy is a lot of disadvantaged people are giving to

0:32:07 > 0:32:11university for the first time and we have a student finance scheme where

0:32:11 > 0:32:17you do not pay a penny as a first burner unless you in over £25,000

0:32:17 > 0:32:22and after 30 years, whatever you have managed to pay, is written. I'm

0:32:22 > 0:32:26not saying is perfect.That very system is replacing grants for

0:32:26 > 0:32:33poorer students with loans. Why? If you are so keen to get disadvantaged

0:32:33 > 0:32:37students into universities, wide takeaway maintenance grants?There

0:32:37 > 0:32:40is a review looking at the whole system, but when many students

0:32:40 > 0:32:44complain about the student finances, they focus on accommodation.

0:32:44 > 0:32:49Somewhere like London, landlords want to get the years rent in

0:32:49 > 0:32:54advance. That is a difficult situation for them and the cost of

0:32:54 > 0:33:00living issues, rather than assuming we know...There's an interest rate

0:33:00 > 0:33:05on a student loan of over 6% which is way in excess of what people are

0:33:05 > 0:33:12borrowing on mortgages etc.The cost of living in University...They must

0:33:12 > 0:33:16be worried about it.Whatever your level of earnings, you pay 9% of

0:33:16 > 0:33:20your income, which means higher rate in graduates pay more to the system

0:33:20 > 0:33:27but I also think to narrow the debate on student fees, students

0:33:27 > 0:33:31have a lot of interest, not all students think student fees is their

0:33:31 > 0:33:36big issue. Someone to see their politicians care about making the

0:33:36 > 0:33:41world a better place. What kind of world they are going into, they will

0:33:41 > 0:33:45get on the housing ladder, housing is big issue for them but the

0:33:45 > 0:33:48economy prospers, so I think that's why you have got to listen and not

0:33:48 > 0:33:52assume all students have the same view and there is one answer that

0:33:52 > 0:33:56deals with all the problems of every 18-21 -year-old.Mental health keeps

0:33:56 > 0:34:03cropping up. I'm sure the university 's lecturers strike came up as well.

0:34:03 > 0:34:07Now students are paying £9,000 in fees, they are consumers as well as

0:34:07 > 0:34:10students, so should they get a refund for the lessons they have not

0:34:10 > 0:34:17been taught?Universities do not pay lecturers on the day they strike,

0:34:17 > 0:34:21they should not pocket those funds, but look at compensation for

0:34:21 > 0:34:25students and there are real ways of compensating students.Would you

0:34:25 > 0:34:31compel them to do that?I'm not in a position to compel them to do that.

0:34:31 > 0:34:34There is the regulator for university who has a wide-ranging

0:34:34 > 0:34:39remit. I'm encouraged some universities are taking this

0:34:39 > 0:34:45seriously. Kings College London will offer financial compensation. I

0:34:45 > 0:34:49think they should look at this very seriously. I am disappointed I am

0:34:49 > 0:34:53seeing lots of petitions out there from Durham University, a petition

0:34:53 > 0:35:00of 5000 students, asking for compensation. I want to university

0:35:00 > 0:35:02to respond constructively, because we are in the age of the student and

0:35:02 > 0:35:07we are there to serve.One quick question, talking about Russia on

0:35:07 > 0:35:11the programme so far this morning, a story this morning in the papers

0:35:11 > 0:35:15saying over £800 million has been donated to the Tory party from

0:35:15 > 0:35:20Russian link to donors since Theresa May took over, even notice that you

0:35:20 > 0:35:23wanted an arms length relationship. Is that something that should be

0:35:23 > 0:35:28discouraged in the future and should the money be returned now?To make a

0:35:28 > 0:35:31donation to a political party in this country you have to be a

0:35:31 > 0:35:39citizen Dungannon

0:35:39 > 0:35:44citizen Dungannon -- and betting needs to be taken place. Modern

0:35:44 > 0:35:50Britain is made up by people from all sorts of places. Some groups of

0:35:50 > 0:35:52people cannot participate in Aber Democratic life to the fall, and we

0:35:52 > 0:35:57have got to be clear, these are British citizens from Russia. Not

0:35:57 > 0:36:02the Kremlin donating to the Conservative Party.Of course not,

0:36:02 > 0:36:07but there could be a question of where those funds came from in the

0:36:07 > 0:36:10first place for the wedding end up on the front page of a Sunday

0:36:10 > 0:36:14newspaper saying this much money has been donated to the Conservative

0:36:14 > 0:36:17Party, maybe it would be better to think again where you receive your

0:36:17 > 0:36:21large donations from?It's not just the letter of the law but vetting

0:36:21 > 0:36:28should be thorough.Sam Gyimah, thank you very much for coming in to

0:36:28 > 0:36:29talk to us.

0:36:29 > 0:36:30It's coming up to 11.40.

0:36:30 > 0:36:31You're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:36:31 > 0:36:33Still to come, we'll be discussing the economy.

0:36:33 > 0:36:35Is it time to end austerity?

0:36:35 > 0:36:38First though, its time for the Sunday Politics where you are.

0:36:45 > 0:36:48Hello and welcome to the London part of the show.

0:36:48 > 0:36:49I'm Alex Forsyth.

0:36:49 > 0:36:51Coming up later in the programme:

0:36:51 > 0:36:54Liberal Democrat leader Vince Cable tells us why he is confident

0:36:54 > 0:36:59the party can make gains in May's local elections.

0:36:59 > 0:37:02I'm joined for the duration by Siobhan McDonagh,

0:37:02 > 0:37:04Labour MP for Mitcham and Morden, and Bob Blackman,

0:37:04 > 0:37:08Conservative MP for Harrow East, and Baroness Kramer,

0:37:08 > 0:37:11Liberal Democrat Treasury Spokesperson and former MP

0:37:11 > 0:37:13for Richmond Park.

0:37:13 > 0:37:15I want to start with housing.

0:37:15 > 0:37:18The Prime Minister has often spoken about the housing market -

0:37:18 > 0:37:21last year she admitted it was "broken".

0:37:21 > 0:37:22This week, she donned a hi-vis jacket and visited

0:37:22 > 0:37:25a construction site in London.

0:37:25 > 0:37:28She was there to deliver a keynote speech about how

0:37:28 > 0:37:31to get housing built, and she challenged developers

0:37:31 > 0:37:34to get their priorities right.

0:37:34 > 0:37:37The bonuses paid to the heads of some of our biggest developers

0:37:37 > 0:37:40are based not on the number of homes they build, but on their

0:37:40 > 0:37:41profits or share price.

0:37:41 > 0:37:44I expect developers to do their duty for Britain and build

0:37:44 > 0:37:47the homes our country needs.

0:37:47 > 0:37:51But in London, where the housing crisis is most acute,

0:37:51 > 0:37:53council leaders rejected the idea that local authorities

0:37:53 > 0:37:55and developers were to blame.

0:37:55 > 0:37:57The Labour Mayor of Lewisham, Sir Steve Bullock,

0:37:57 > 0:38:01who is also the housing spokesperson for London Councils,

0:38:01 > 0:38:04said the Prime Minister had shied away from the one policy that

0:38:04 > 0:38:07could increase house-building.

0:38:07 > 0:38:11I find it really hard to understand why the Prime Minister thinks

0:38:11 > 0:38:18that a local council can force a private developer to build out

0:38:18 > 0:38:21a planning permission which they have been given.

0:38:21 > 0:38:26The single thing that would make a difference, not just in London

0:38:26 > 0:38:31but across the nation, would be to raise the cap

0:38:31 > 0:38:33on what we can spend on new housing.

0:38:33 > 0:38:36The housing revenue account.

0:38:36 > 0:38:38Let us borrow against the assets that we've got.

0:38:38 > 0:38:40This has stopped being a matter of controversy

0:38:40 > 0:38:43within local government.

0:38:43 > 0:38:47People from all political persuasions are now agreed that just

0:38:47 > 0:38:52give us the ability to build and we will get on and do it.

0:38:52 > 0:38:56Sir Steve Bullock's views. Let me come to you first,

0:38:56 > 0:38:58Bob, if I can, on this. So why doesn't the governor do that,

0:38:58 > 0:39:00just give councils the power to borrow and build?

0:39:00 > 0:39:03Well, the reality is the government has allocated to the Mayor of London

0:39:03 > 0:39:07and London councils a record sum of money.

0:39:07 > 0:39:10£3.15 billion for the development of housing and yet, in London,

0:39:10 > 0:39:13it's the one area in the country where the house-building

0:39:13 > 0:39:17is going down instead of up. So we've got a Mayor of London

0:39:17 > 0:39:20who made all sorts of promises. He's failing to deliver on those

0:39:20 > 0:39:23promises and actuallly now we need some action to go with the money

0:39:23 > 0:39:27that the government has provided. But you hear the council

0:39:27 > 0:39:30saying actually they need more powers to do this?

0:39:30 > 0:39:33Well, it's interesting that the Mayor of Lewisham is on.

0:39:33 > 0:39:37He said he's cancelling the compulsary purchase order around

0:39:37 > 0:39:41Millwall football club where the original idea

0:39:41 > 0:39:44was to develop housing yet his deputy Mayor says no,

0:39:44 > 0:39:51the compulsary purchase order is going forward.

0:39:51 > 0:39:55That a specific case but obviously there is a capital wide problem.One

0:39:55 > 0:39:59of the problems is we have the same thing in Enfield, a scheme for

0:39:59 > 0:40:0110,000 homes has been cancelled effectively because of the

0:40:01 > 0:40:07interference of the Mayor. Haringey, Private partnerships seem to be

0:40:07 > 0:40:12going awry because of divisions in the Labour Party. You have got girls

0:40:12 > 0:40:17caught, under challenge, old Oak Common, huge numbers of homes can be

0:40:17 > 0:40:24built -- Earls Court. Also Transport for London to develop homes is

0:40:24 > 0:40:31problematic.I can see you shaking your head.What Bob knows is most of

0:40:31 > 0:40:35these schemes are about building private houses at high costs in

0:40:35 > 0:40:40London where the average house is 15 times the average salary. We are

0:40:40 > 0:40:46never ever going to get to the 300,000 properties the government

0:40:46 > 0:40:49wants unless councils and housing associations are allowed to build.

0:40:49 > 0:40:56The last time we built that number was 1969. Councils and housing

0:40:56 > 0:41:01associations were building. We have got the land, the policy, the paper,

0:41:01 > 0:41:04the high viz jackets, the one thing we don't have is getting our act

0:41:04 > 0:41:09together and getting out there in building.What Theresa May has said

0:41:09 > 0:41:12here if there is a duty on developers. She is putting the onus

0:41:12 > 0:41:15on the private companies to get their act together on this and get

0:41:15 > 0:41:20building. Is that not thumping Labour would welcome?It's part of

0:41:20 > 0:41:24it but not the total. Is the most expensive way in the world to build

0:41:24 > 0:41:29your social housing for families who can't afford to buy by planning

0:41:29 > 0:41:33agreements. The cheapest and best way to do it is to go out there and

0:41:33 > 0:41:38use the land there, 40% of all empty sites are owned by the public

0:41:38 > 0:41:41sector, I think government should force the public sector to use them

0:41:41 > 0:41:49in the first place for housing.I can hear you, Susan, next to me.

0:41:49 > 0:41:54Developers make their money by keeping supply short and Theresa

0:41:54 > 0:41:58May, the word naive is perhaps a gentle comment on telling developers

0:41:58 > 0:42:03to ignore their property interests and go ahead and build. The power

0:42:03 > 0:42:08needs to be put into the hands of local councils. I think we could use

0:42:08 > 0:42:11the GLA fund, frankly, to try building in London but local council

0:42:11 > 0:42:15levels, people need to have that opportunity, but the onus and

0:42:15 > 0:42:20pressure has to be to deliver affordable and social housing. Where

0:42:20 > 0:42:25I live, in Barnes, Richmond, I am watching three new blocks going up

0:42:25 > 0:42:28and every single one of them is wall-to-wall luxury housing. When

0:42:28 > 0:42:32you see the lights on at night, everybody knows this story, less

0:42:32 > 0:42:37than a third of the lights are on. They are just investment properties.

0:42:37 > 0:42:42The Prime Minister has made housing a real priority for her and pledged

0:42:42 > 0:42:46to build this new generation of Council social housing to do

0:42:46 > 0:42:50something about this and make home ownership a dream for future

0:42:50 > 0:42:56generations. You hear the criticism. Siobhan is right about one thing,

0:42:56 > 0:43:03the land is 40% owned by the public sector already. The big problem is

0:43:03 > 0:43:05the cost of land particularly in London where it contributes to the

0:43:05 > 0:43:13high cost. Through the relevant agencies now, we can force that

0:43:13 > 0:43:17public land to be used for housing falls at the planning permission is

0:43:17 > 0:43:21not an issue. That has been granted by local authorities. It's getting

0:43:21 > 0:43:25the housing built. We have too few housing developers in this country.

0:43:25 > 0:43:33Ten years ago, we had 2500 companies who build houses and now down to

0:43:33 > 0:43:37about ten who realistically contribute. We have to broaden the

0:43:37 > 0:43:42scope. It is all about making the contracts and getting them in place.

0:43:42 > 0:43:46In my view, in the public sector, I think we should ignore the cost of

0:43:46 > 0:43:50the land, take that out of the equation, build the homes and then

0:43:50 > 0:43:54charge rent on the cost of building the homes and ignore the cost of the

0:43:54 > 0:44:00land.Often, in the housing debate, we hear attacks on record of various

0:44:00 > 0:44:03governments. Isn't the truth we have a broken market and if the people

0:44:03 > 0:44:07who live in London who can't afford their homes who are suffering?That

0:44:07 > 0:44:11doesn't get a roof over any homeless family had, we have to get out and

0:44:11 > 0:44:16do it. Bob is right about the public sector sites but in order to get

0:44:16 > 0:44:19cancelled and the health service and the prison service to do that, you

0:44:19 > 0:44:26have to make it there priority -- councils. You have to say there will

0:44:26 > 0:44:28be financial consequences because without that it's never going to

0:44:28 > 0:44:32happen and you can have as many glossy report as you like but there

0:44:32 > 0:44:36is a role here for government to force public bodies to use their

0:44:36 > 0:44:43land in the first place for housing. And we have done it before.The

0:44:43 > 0:44:47housing associations are sitting on huge amounts of money in assets and

0:44:47 > 0:44:50money they could use but they don't because they're quite comfortable.

0:44:50 > 0:44:54We have to leave up there, sadly and we can't solve the housing crisis

0:44:54 > 0:44:58but we have made inroads, I'm sure.

0:44:58 > 0:45:01It's been a big week for the Liberal Democrats -

0:45:01 > 0:45:04they marked the 30th anniversary of the formation of the party, and

0:45:04 > 0:45:06members are attending their annual spring conference this weekend.

0:45:06 > 0:45:08At the forefront of their concerns will be the upcoming

0:45:08 > 0:45:11local elections in May - which their leader has said will be

0:45:11 > 0:45:13crucial to rebuilding Lib Dem influence at every

0:45:13 > 0:45:14level of government.

0:45:14 > 0:45:16So how will they fare in London?

0:45:16 > 0:45:17Bhavani Vadde reports.

0:45:17 > 0:45:19The Lib Dems are the only party that is consistently argued

0:45:19 > 0:45:21for staying in the EU.

0:45:21 > 0:45:27They've put this at the heart of the local election campaign.

0:45:27 > 0:45:29This week, they've released messages in 21 different European languages,

0:45:29 > 0:45:32targeting EU nationals.

0:45:32 > 0:45:37This is the first test of opinion since the general election,

0:45:37 > 0:45:40and Brexit and the impact of Brexit, the negative hit on London,

0:45:40 > 0:45:44will be a big theme.

0:45:44 > 0:45:45We've had a massive increase in our membership,

0:45:45 > 0:45:48much of it in the capital, mostly young people.

0:45:48 > 0:45:51We've now got a significantly bigger party nationally

0:45:51 > 0:45:55than the Conservatives, for example, and lots of energy,

0:45:55 > 0:46:02much of it again centred around the Brexit issue.

0:46:02 > 0:46:06A key target for the party is the Royal Borough of Kingston.

0:46:06 > 0:46:09The Conservatives ended 12 years of Lib Dem control there at the last

0:46:09 > 0:46:12local elections in 2014.

0:46:12 > 0:46:15This time, it's expected to be close, with an unusually high number

0:46:15 > 0:46:19of marginal wards in the borough.

0:46:19 > 0:46:23It was a completely different ball game back in 2014.

0:46:23 > 0:46:26Essentially, a lot of people were punishing us nationally

0:46:26 > 0:46:30in local elections, but this time round, I think people

0:46:30 > 0:46:33are really looking at what the local issues are.

0:46:33 > 0:46:38More homes, not the luxury tower blocks, better air quality...

0:46:38 > 0:46:41The borough also voted to remain in the EU.

0:46:41 > 0:46:44I mean, I'm a politician, and I'm bored with Brexit,

0:46:44 > 0:46:47and I think actually when you talk to people on doorsteps,

0:46:47 > 0:46:48it's very much the same view.

0:46:48 > 0:46:51Most people are satisfied with the job that we are doing here.

0:46:51 > 0:46:53We've invested heavily in the infrastructure,

0:46:53 > 0:46:56so we've spent more money than we were going to on roads

0:46:56 > 0:46:59and pavements and playgrounds.

0:46:59 > 0:47:02Kingston is also home to the coronation stone,

0:47:02 > 0:47:05where seven Saxon kings were said to have been crowned,

0:47:05 > 0:47:08the last being Ethelred the Unready.

0:47:08 > 0:47:11In old English, unready actually means "badly advised",

0:47:11 > 0:47:15so are the Lib Dems also ill-advised to be sticking to their anti-Brexit

0:47:15 > 0:47:20message when it has failed to bring them electoral glory?

0:47:20 > 0:47:23It's now becoming much more clear what's at stake.

0:47:23 > 0:47:24We've had the referendum.

0:47:24 > 0:47:27I think a lot of people took the view "let the government get

0:47:27 > 0:47:30on with it, see what happens", but we can now see

0:47:30 > 0:47:32that we are going to leave if the government gets its way,

0:47:32 > 0:47:34leave the single market.

0:47:34 > 0:47:39Massive implications for London and all its service-based industries.

0:47:39 > 0:47:42The party celebrated its 30th birthday this week.

0:47:42 > 0:47:44It's been a journey which saw them rise to government,

0:47:44 > 0:47:48and then punished in the polls for their part

0:47:48 > 0:47:49in that coalition.

0:47:49 > 0:47:52Their record in south-west London reflects the roller-coaster

0:47:52 > 0:47:54of their electoral fortunes.

0:47:54 > 0:47:58Their three London MPs hold seats in these boroughs.

0:47:58 > 0:48:01The party runs Sutton Council, and are the main opposition group

0:48:01 > 0:48:05in Kingston and Richmond - both councils they once controlled,

0:48:05 > 0:48:08and have high hopes of winning back.

0:48:08 > 0:48:12The Lib Dems need local election success to build towards whenever

0:48:12 > 0:48:16the next general election is come, so if they don't do really quite

0:48:16 > 0:48:22well in London, and indeed outside London this time,

0:48:22 > 0:48:26then it will be seen as evidence that they are simply treading water,

0:48:26 > 0:48:29not making progress.

0:48:29 > 0:48:31A Labour Party which has this bigger capacity to, as it were,

0:48:31 > 0:48:34send a massive message to the government and Mrs May may be

0:48:34 > 0:48:37an easier shift of votes for die-hard remainers

0:48:37 > 0:48:40than the Lib Dems.

0:48:40 > 0:48:44So in this overwhelmingly remains city, the Lib Dems have so far

0:48:44 > 0:48:47failed to capitalise on their continued

0:48:47 > 0:48:49anti-Brexit stance.

0:48:49 > 0:48:57Will they be able to do so at the polls in May?

0:49:01 > 0:49:07Susan Kramer, the Lib Dems failed to capitalise on the anti-Brexit vote

0:49:07 > 0:49:10at the general election, so why do you think it might be difficult at

0:49:10 > 0:49:17these -- different at these local elections?The highlight, Vince

0:49:17 > 0:49:22Cable one Twickenham, and Ed Davey one Kingston, which we had lost

0:49:22 > 0:49:28before. So we did see a return.But not nationally.I'm talking about

0:49:28 > 0:49:34the specific areas you are focused on. When we are out on the doorstep,

0:49:34 > 0:49:39we find... In many of these cases, we were a local force for many

0:49:39 > 0:49:46years, so people know us there. When we are in Kingston, we just talked

0:49:46 > 0:49:51to people and we identify that three new schools are needed, including a

0:49:51 > 0:49:54special school, and we cannot let the Conservatives take money out of

0:49:54 > 0:50:00the special needs budget, and we get a very strong response. We talk

0:50:00 > 0:50:05about the housing need, and we need affordable housing. Various projects

0:50:05 > 0:50:12have been built on the Richmond side, which have a very high luxury

0:50:12 > 0:50:18content. No affordable and certainly no social housing. There are really

0:50:18 > 0:50:22big local issues.You say you are fighting at a local level, but the

0:50:22 > 0:50:27message at the top of the party is very much, we are an anti-Brexit

0:50:27 > 0:50:37party. Are you kicking at an open door in London?We are

0:50:37 > 0:50:39door in London?We are an anti-Brexit party. We do not deny

0:50:39 > 0:50:43that for one second. We think that is the best outcome. Many people

0:50:43 > 0:50:46want to engage... As you know, when we had the referendum, there was so

0:50:46 > 0:50:51much that none of us knew, and now this extraordinary complexity. The

0:50:51 > 0:50:56level of damage is beginning to become apparent. People are feeling

0:50:56 > 0:51:01it in their pocket.Isn't the danger for the Lib Dems that if you do

0:51:01 > 0:51:05campaign at an anti-Brexit message, at a local level, councillors will

0:51:05 > 0:51:12not be able to affect change, because it is those in Parliament...

0:51:12 > 0:51:17People are sending a message. They vote locally for their councillors,

0:51:17 > 0:51:20but they are getting the opportunity to send a message to their

0:51:20 > 0:51:27government.Labour's message is quite confused on Brexit. What are

0:51:27 > 0:51:32they saying?If people are going to vote Labour in London, as they did

0:51:32 > 0:51:37in enormous numbers last June in the general election, they are making a

0:51:37 > 0:51:41point about being anti-Brexit. They are also making a point about

0:51:41 > 0:51:46housing, because this is not just about people on low incomes. If you

0:51:46 > 0:51:53knock on the door, if it is a private Tennant, they are almost all

0:51:53 > 0:51:58virtually Labour.Thomas, are you going to take the flak for this in

0:51:58 > 0:52:06the local elections?Not at all. The reality is that Conservative

0:52:06 > 0:52:11councils in London have always done a really good job of delivering high

0:52:11 > 0:52:17quality services at a lower cost. Zac Goldsmith took back Richmond

0:52:17 > 0:52:22from the Lib Dems at the general election.We won it at the

0:52:22 > 0:52:30by-election. Won by 45.The polls say you are going to take a right

0:52:30 > 0:52:34hammering.It will be interesting. We are talking about the Liberal

0:52:34 > 0:52:41Democrat performance. I think we will take seats off the Lib Dems in

0:52:41 > 0:52:47Sutton. I'm looking forward to taking seeds of Labour in Harrow.I

0:52:47 > 0:52:50think you are being optimistic.They are one of the worst performing

0:52:50 > 0:52:54councils in London and in the country, with the third highest

0:52:54 > 0:53:00level of council tax. The key point about London election is not to be

0:53:00 > 0:53:05thinking about parties, but looking at individual councils, how they

0:53:05 > 0:53:10have performed as a council, and look at the opposition.If you look

0:53:10 > 0:53:14at the polls, there are some really significant councils that you could

0:53:14 > 0:53:20lose. The Tories really struggling in London? Are they going to

0:53:20 > 0:53:24struggle for some time? Have they given up on the capital?Far from

0:53:24 > 0:53:31it. One of the things we have to do is say, people have to go out on the

0:53:31 > 0:53:36doorsteps and sell the benefits of having a Conservative run council.

0:53:36 > 0:53:41These national issues run through to locally. Our local councils are

0:53:41 > 0:53:45definitely suffering from the cuts they are facing. School funding...

0:53:45 > 0:53:51It isn't the school that has had to go to its parents and say, could you

0:53:51 > 0:53:57fund this? Could you help us with that? What I am saying is, people

0:53:57 > 0:54:01are feeling this byte locally because of what is happening

0:54:01 > 0:54:08nationally. The idea that they can't send a message is a false one.

0:54:08 > 0:54:13People will vote on the things that matter to them, and it will be a mix

0:54:13 > 0:54:18of national issues, a mix of Brexit. In Richmond it's going to be

0:54:18 > 0:54:26Heathrow. They are fed up of local Conservatives being opposed to

0:54:26 > 0:54:28Heathrow Airport, but living with the party centrally being in favour

0:54:28 > 0:54:34of that third runway.Susan says it is a mix of the local and national

0:54:34 > 0:54:39in these elections, but isn't it the case that the government has

0:54:39 > 0:54:43overlooked London, because they have been so focused on regional

0:54:43 > 0:54:48devolution elsewhere. We hear a lot about the northern powerhouse and

0:54:48 > 0:54:52train links elsewhere in the country.In London, we got

0:54:52 > 0:54:58devolution first.Under a Labour government, I think you will find.

0:54:58 > 0:55:02In the same year that we got elected. It was the first bill

0:55:02 > 0:55:08introduced under the Labour government in 97.I supported the

0:55:08 > 0:55:11principle of having the Mayor of London, and I think it is the right

0:55:11 > 0:55:17thing for London. As a party, we have to continue that process of

0:55:17 > 0:55:20devolution. We have the 100% retention of business rates for

0:55:20 > 0:55:26London. We've got massive amounts of money...We will have to leave it

0:55:26 > 0:55:31there, and we will see what me and the local election results bring.

0:55:31 > 0:55:33Thank you very much.

0:55:33 > 0:55:36On Tuesday, the Chancellor will give us his Spring Statement -

0:55:36 > 0:55:38he's ditched the big event that was the Spring Budget.

0:55:38 > 0:55:41Instead it'll be a run-down of the state of the nation's finances.

0:55:41 > 0:55:44So what could be in it for London, and what would

0:55:44 > 0:55:47our guests want to see?

0:55:47 > 0:55:52Susan, you are the Lib Dems' Treasury spokeswoman. Were you to be

0:55:52 > 0:55:56there at the dispatch box, what would you give for London?I believe

0:55:56 > 0:56:06we should never look at it as London or the regions. Everybody is in need

0:56:06 > 0:56:11of massive infrastructure spending. Frankly, this government has always

0:56:11 > 0:56:14insisted on counting infrastructure spending as if it was part of the

0:56:14 > 0:56:21deficit. It never should. We should be out there borrowing because, new

0:56:21 > 0:56:25rail systems, whether it is new transport networks, all of that

0:56:25 > 0:56:31should be funded despite what is happening on a day-to-day basis. I

0:56:31 > 0:56:35would be doing major investment across the country, both London, in

0:56:35 > 0:56:40the north and in the Midlands. Labour's manifesto did promote the

0:56:40 > 0:56:48idea of borrowing to invest, but you got quite a kicking from the

0:56:48 > 0:56:49Conservatives.My personal wish from the Spring statement is we could

0:56:49 > 0:56:55have the 1.1 million pounds that the Department of local government and

0:56:55 > 0:57:01Housing gave back to the Treasury. If they gave that back, we could

0:57:01 > 0:57:05build over 20,000 prefabs on the public land we were speaking about.

0:57:05 > 0:57:12We would have 20,000 houses by the summer.Will that happen?One of the

0:57:12 > 0:57:16problems is that money that was allocated to London for the Mayor of

0:57:16 > 0:57:21London to use was returned, essentially. 3.5 billion was

0:57:21 > 0:57:28allocated.He has returned money for affordable and social housing.You

0:57:28 > 0:57:31are out campaigning for the local elections. What are people saying

0:57:31 > 0:57:36they want to hear about local spending?Local spending is

0:57:36 > 0:57:40allocating the money most effectively. One of the problems in

0:57:40 > 0:57:45most part of London is you will see rough sleepers on the increase,

0:57:45 > 0:57:48unfortunately, and providing decent housing for people at a price they

0:57:48 > 0:57:54can afford. The differences possibly, I have taken some action,

0:57:54 > 0:57:59and on the 3rd of April, why homeless reduction act becomes

0:57:59 > 0:58:04reality and local councils will have responsibility.With the NHS and

0:58:04 > 0:58:14social care, and London councils have struggled through this period.

0:58:14 > 0:58:19This is something that could be tackled. Both the social care and

0:58:19 > 0:58:24the funding side. The country is ready for a dedicated tax to support

0:58:24 > 0:58:29the NHS and social care. We have asked the government if they would

0:58:29 > 0:58:33put in place at least the beginning of that, with a penny on the pound

0:58:33 > 0:58:38in income taxed just literally for the NHS and social care, and that

0:58:38 > 0:58:42would take off the pressure. If the government did just that one thing

0:58:42 > 0:58:47in the spring statement, that would genuinely change people's lives.A

0:58:47 > 0:58:53final brief thought if we can. When the Chancellor stands up, what can

0:58:53 > 0:59:00we hear from Jeremy Corbyn in response? Will he

0:59:05 > 0:59:07response? Will he just or will he have ideas of his own?He has plenty

0:59:07 > 0:59:10of ideas, and if we could just have that money back and build 20,000

0:59:10 > 0:59:13homes for the people who need them. I would like to see improvements to

0:59:13 > 0:59:22infrastructure, like Crossrail 2. We raise the money from income tax and

0:59:22 > 0:59:26other taxes, and it will be sent to other parts of the country. I would

0:59:26 > 0:59:29like to see the money raised in London used in London for the

0:59:29 > 0:59:34benefit of Londoners. I want to see the money we raise in taxes used in

0:59:34 > 0:59:39London on big infrastructure projects.

0:59:39 > 0:59:40That's all we have time for.

0:59:40 > 0:59:43My thanks to Susan Kramer, Siobhan McDonagh and to Bob Blackman.

0:59:43 > 0:59:45And with that it's back to Sarah.

0:59:45 > 0:59:46Welcome back.

0:59:46 > 0:59:48The Chancellor's been out and about this morning,

0:59:48 > 0:59:51setting out his stall ahead of the Spring Statement on Tuesday.

0:59:51 > 0:59:52Here's what he told Andrew Marr.

0:59:52 > 0:59:55There is light at the end of the tunnel because what we are

0:59:55 > 1:00:00about to see is debt starting to fall after it's been growing

1:00:00 > 1:00:02for 17 continuous years.

1:00:02 > 1:00:05That's a very important moment for us, but we are still

1:00:05 > 1:00:06in the tunnel at the moment.

1:00:06 > 1:00:10We have to get debt down.

1:00:10 > 1:00:13We have got all sorts of other things we want to do.

1:00:13 > 1:00:16We've taken a balanced approach over the last couple of fiscal events.

1:00:16 > 1:00:22Using flexibility that we had to continue paying down debt,

1:00:22 > 1:00:25but also to provide additional support to our public services,

1:00:25 > 1:00:27to invest in Britain's future and to reduce taxes for families

1:00:27 > 1:00:31and small businesses who are feeling the pressure.

1:00:31 > 1:00:35Also appearing on the Andrew Marr programme, the Shadow Chancellor

1:00:35 > 1:00:37John McDonnell called on the government to end

1:00:37 > 1:00:44its austerity programme.

1:00:44 > 1:00:47One thing he has done is he has shifted the deficit onto the

1:00:47 > 1:00:52shoulders of NHS managers, onto shoulders of head teachers, and onto

1:00:52 > 1:00:57the shoulders of local government leaders and these Conservative

1:00:57 > 1:01:03council leaders now are saying that they are facing a financial crisis

1:01:03 > 1:01:09because the government have had cutbacks. This is not a matter of

1:01:09 > 1:01:13celebration. I think he should come into the real world because the

1:01:13 > 1:01:17resolution foundation said in their report today, 11 million people now,

1:01:17 > 1:01:20not just the poorest but those just about managing, will be hit next

1:01:20 > 1:01:24month by the cuts in support they get to the benefit system, so this

1:01:24 > 1:01:29is not a matter for celebration by any means.To unpick what we can

1:01:29 > 1:01:32expect in the spring statement and other stories next week, the panel

1:01:32 > 1:01:37are still with me. We had the Chancellor saying there is light at

1:01:37 > 1:01:42the end of the tunnel. How much pressure does is put on him from his

1:01:42 > 1:01:45own side let alone from the opposition to spend some more money?

1:01:45 > 1:01:48There's an interesting split in the Conservatives, those who say now we

1:01:48 > 1:01:51have a lemonade of the current budget deficit on day-to-day

1:01:51 > 1:01:55spending, we should take a chance to invest heavily in infrastructure to

1:01:55 > 1:02:05give the NHS more money, to spend money on schools, and then you have

1:02:05 > 1:02:10the fiscal conservatives like Philip Hammond to say actually debt is

1:02:10 > 1:02:15still 84% of GDP, we have got to start delivering overall surplus is

1:02:15 > 1:02:18not borrowing money to get it down because we face economic economic

1:02:18 > 1:02:23risks from Brexit. We know Philip Hammond does not look optimistically

1:02:23 > 1:02:27at that. And an ageing population on those pressures, so when things

1:02:27 > 1:02:32start to seem as if they are improving, you can't reduce the

1:02:32 > 1:02:39momentum.It was interesting early on the programme, talking to Sam

1:02:39 > 1:02:43Gyimah, he said students thought austerity was the ideological

1:02:43 > 1:02:49position of the Conservative Party, not a practical necessity. So if now

1:02:49 > 1:02:52we are reaching a point where there is potentially more money to spend,

1:02:52 > 1:03:00politically would be wise?It is because if the Conservatives failed

1:03:00 > 1:03:03to establish this narrative which they have been trying to form long

1:03:03 > 1:03:06time, under Theresa May they have abandoned it, this idea that living

1:03:06 > 1:03:13within 1's means as a country is an end to itself, I'm not sure what

1:03:13 > 1:03:17will separate them from the Labour ideology. If they absolutely abandon

1:03:17 > 1:03:22the point they have to be careful about how they spend their money,

1:03:22 > 1:03:27they could pledge 10 billion to one sector, and the Labour Party will

1:03:27 > 1:03:34pledge 100. If they cannot make that case it is responsible to be

1:03:34 > 1:03:37spending money responsibly because otherwise if you don't pay off your

1:03:37 > 1:03:42debt, it will mean higher taxes on future generations, these students

1:03:42 > 1:03:46and their children have lost that political argument already.The

1:03:46 > 1:03:50defining political argument of this premiership of Theresa May for the

1:03:50 > 1:03:54many and not for the few, are the fiscal messages we are hearing from

1:03:54 > 1:03:59the Chancellor, do they relate to that?Not in the slightest. You

1:03:59 > 1:04:06heard on the Andrew Marr programme, giving a receptacle slap in the

1:04:06 > 1:04:13face, the author of the just about managing speech, Mick Timothy is

1:04:13 > 1:04:18going to try to beat up the Chancellor on behalf of the Prime

1:04:18 > 1:04:22Minister's behalf, so those tensions will remain. I think the Chancellor

1:04:22 > 1:04:25is even more anal-retentive on the purse strings at the moment simply

1:04:25 > 1:04:31because of the government, the Tories don't have a majority. That

1:04:31 > 1:04:37means any single minority interest who can scrape together ten or 12

1:04:37 > 1:04:41Tory MPs, you can force the government to do a U-turn and they

1:04:41 > 1:04:46are piling up from defence spending, a strong Tory bid coming down the

1:04:46 > 1:04:56line on Universal Credit, putting back 3 billion into it. IDS, the

1:04:56 > 1:05:01socially conservative touchy-feely end of the party, to the NHS,

1:05:01 > 1:05:05tuition fees, every single one of those minority interests will want

1:05:05 > 1:05:10some sort of salvation. Now the Chancellor announces bigger that £10

1:05:10 > 1:05:15million -- £10 billion a year more yet to play with.Now usually at

1:05:15 > 1:05:23this point we are talking about the word Brexit and it does not come up

1:05:23 > 1:05:29yet and we can't

1:05:29 > 1:05:35yet and we can't ignore it it has been a big Brexit week.Yes, we've

1:05:35 > 1:05:42heard Philip Hammond tell us financial services will have to form

1:05:42 > 1:05:47the ultimate deal we get from the EU, and we've also heard the EU's

1:05:47 > 1:05:53guidelines. They are, unsurprisingly, taking a hard line.

1:05:53 > 1:06:01Those two things have happened. Another interesting thing, there was

1:06:01 > 1:06:14an interesting appointment that happened in the EU last

1:06:14 > 1:06:16happened in the EU last week, Jean-Claude Juncker's write man

1:06:16 > 1:06:21became secretary-general of the commission. There is a lot of

1:06:21 > 1:06:26disquiet amongst the MPs about this from across the European Union, but

1:06:26 > 1:06:31also political divides within the EU, and tomorrow they are demanding

1:06:31 > 1:06:35some answers in the European Parliament about this particular

1:06:35 > 1:06:39appointment and we, the Brexit nerds, we'll look at it very

1:06:39 > 1:06:41carefully. It raises some interesting questions and

1:06:41 > 1:06:47transparency and accountability within the European framework.The

1:06:47 > 1:06:50international trade Secretary Liam Fox is off to Washington at the very

1:06:50 > 1:06:56time the US president is threatening tariffs on steel and aluminium and

1:06:56 > 1:07:00it's an interesting one for British government because Trump has said

1:07:00 > 1:07:02allies can come and make their case to be exempted from this and Canada

1:07:02 > 1:07:08and Mexico have been, but we should not be going separately as the UK

1:07:08 > 1:07:11because we are part of the European Union at the moment, but if we can

1:07:11 > 1:07:15cut a deal, how would that go down in Brussels?Conservatives like Liam

1:07:15 > 1:07:22Fox said for years once we are outside the EU the advantages is we

1:07:22 > 1:07:26can get beneficial trade deals with major economies like the USA, and

1:07:26 > 1:07:31now he has the chance to test Donald Trump's words, so there's been lots

1:07:31 > 1:07:35of rhetoric about Donald Trump about you guys will get a big trade deal,

1:07:35 > 1:07:39but in reality he's always been a protectionist on trade. Will you

1:07:39 > 1:07:44make an exception for Britain? Does he think we are a significant and

1:07:44 > 1:07:48economy to make that case? If Liam Fox could get something, it would be

1:07:48 > 1:07:54a win for the Brexiteers. The government postponed the boat on a

1:07:54 > 1:07:57customs union because they were worried about losing it on the floor

1:07:57 > 1:07:59of the Commons after the Labour shift full support they can get a

1:07:59 > 1:08:04concession, it would help.A potential windfall Liam Fox but

1:08:04 > 1:08:07fraught with danger. If he gets a deal, the EU will be furious and

1:08:07 > 1:08:11that could affect the Brexit negotiations. If he doesn't come it

1:08:11 > 1:08:15will be rather embarrassing.He can't get a deal until 2021, an

1:08:15 > 1:08:25awful long time away. We remain within the EU's tariffs regime until

1:08:25 > 1:08:332021 because that is what we wanted. New Year's Eve 2020. There ain't a

1:08:33 > 1:08:36huge amount the government can do. If the government could broker a

1:08:36 > 1:08:43deal, there's talk of doing this, not country by country, but the Port

1:08:43 > 1:08:50Talbot manufacturers, high-density steel used to warships, he could try

1:08:50 > 1:08:53to broker some sort of exemption with that, but it will interview

1:08:53 > 1:09:00read the EU and give us an

1:09:00 > 1:09:02read the EU and give us an even worse deal. I don't think Liam Fox

1:09:02 > 1:09:06I'm afraid we'll win this debate. The big story with the Labour Party

1:09:06 > 1:09:12the moment of course is the election for their new general secretary. The

1:09:12 > 1:09:16founder of momentum standing against Jennie Formby from Unite. This is

1:09:16 > 1:09:19not the left and right battle we have been used within the Labour

1:09:19 > 1:09:22Party the two very strong significance figures from the left

1:09:22 > 1:09:26of the party battling it out to take over general secretary. Does it

1:09:26 > 1:09:30matter which one of them wins and how this proceeds for the Labour

1:09:30 > 1:09:33Party?It matters because you have two rival conceptions about the

1:09:33 > 1:09:39Labour Party should be. The view of momentum is you need more power is

1:09:39 > 1:09:44transferred to members giving members greater influence over

1:09:44 > 1:09:48policy and the trade unions still have half of the boat on Labour

1:09:48 > 1:09:52Party policy which act as a block and gives the general secretary huge

1:09:52 > 1:09:57power and then you have the Labour Party founded by the trade unions,

1:09:57 > 1:10:00we are nothing without the trade unions, of course they have to be at

1:10:00 > 1:10:05the centre of the Labour Party and therefore it is entirely appropriate

1:10:05 > 1:10:07Jennie Formby should become the new party general secretary, but this is

1:10:07 > 1:10:11a fascinating element and the left have defeated all of the internal

1:10:11 > 1:10:16opponents and it is now the split within the new party establishment

1:10:16 > 1:10:19that is playing out and some will draw comparisons with the Blairites

1:10:19 > 1:10:24and Brown Knights of the past. The two rival visions of what Corbin is

1:10:24 > 1:10:28should mean for Labour.With policy and vocations? Will make a

1:10:28 > 1:10:34difference to the of the Labour Party or is it about who it is?

1:10:34 > 1:10:38Small policy implications. Momentum are about as far left as you can

1:10:38 > 1:10:45possibly get at the moment in terms of selling up nationalisation is.

1:10:45 > 1:10:52Len McCluskey, unite, not perhaps quite as hard left as momentum. I

1:10:52 > 1:11:00think it is more the culture who runs the party, who has controls and

1:11:00 > 1:11:04what's fascinating is watching the Labour moderates this week. There's

1:11:04 > 1:11:10a few of them around. One of them described it as predator versus

1:11:10 > 1:11:16alien for the two terrible enemies eating each other as the revolution

1:11:16 > 1:11:19always eats its children will be a great battle my feeling is the union

1:11:19 > 1:11:23will win it. They have the muscle and bigger numbers than momentum at

1:11:23 > 1:11:27the moment.Labour moderates, it's been suggested Harriet Harman could

1:11:27 > 1:11:31be interested in being the next Speaker of the House of Commons. The

1:11:31 > 1:11:35second ever female speaker of course, but John Bercow has been

1:11:35 > 1:11:38there for a long time although there are allegations about bullying in

1:11:38 > 1:11:42his office which have resurfaced this week. Is there an opportunity

1:11:42 > 1:11:49do you think?Yes, would be interesting is how these bullying

1:11:49 > 1:11:53allegations, which are only allegations at this stage, play out.

1:11:53 > 1:11:56It's been talked about quite a lot and we have talked about this in the

1:11:56 > 1:12:01Green room actually, when John Bercow to go but he set himself a

1:12:01 > 1:12:04limit, coming to an end, the middle of this year. Does that mean he's

1:12:04 > 1:12:11now leaving his job? I think he has immensely enjoyed it but the MPs

1:12:11 > 1:12:16perhaps not so much on both sides. It will be interesting to see how

1:12:16 > 1:12:20that happens. And if it would be Harriet Harman, how the Tory MPs are

1:12:20 > 1:12:26going to react to her taking on as well?The Tory MPs don't like John

1:12:26 > 1:12:34Bercow.They don't like John Bercow or Harriet Harman but for her to

1:12:34 > 1:12:37become the speaker would be significant. Both culturally and

1:12:37 > 1:12:41politically. She's done more than any other MP to advance women's

1:12:41 > 1:12:45rights and you can see why, with such concern about the harassment

1:12:45 > 1:12:50allegations and bullying now at Westminster, for Harriet Harman to

1:12:50 > 1:12:55become the speaker would be a very important development for the its

1:12:55 > 1:12:59Labour MPs actually who have propped up John Bercow. He lost the

1:12:59 > 1:13:02confidence of his own side and if they start to turn on him his days

1:13:02 > 1:13:09could be numbered.Very briefly, Harriet Harman? Can you see it?Yes

1:13:09 > 1:13:13because John Bercow has about ten Tory MP mates, plus the entire

1:13:13 > 1:13:16Labour vote and will always win unless the Tories can find someone

1:13:16 > 1:13:19they liked even more than John Bercow and there aren't that many

1:13:19 > 1:13:24more public people in the party than Harriet Harman.Thank you all for

1:13:24 > 1:13:26coming in.

1:13:26 > 1:13:29Join me again next Sunday at 11 here on BBC One.

1:13:29 > 1:13:35Until then, bye bye.