0:00:39 > 0:00:41Morning, everyone, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
0:00:41 > 0:00:42I'm Sarah Smith.
0:00:42 > 0:00:45And this is the programme that will provide your essential briefing
0:00:45 > 0:00:47on everything that's moving and shaking in the
0:00:47 > 0:00:50world of politics.
0:00:50 > 0:00:53The Foreign Secretary accuses Russia of "smug sarcasm, denial,
0:00:53 > 0:00:55obfuscation and delay" in relation to the Salisbury poisoning case.
0:00:55 > 0:01:00As the diplomatic dispute continues, where will this crisis go next?
0:01:00 > 0:01:03Police launch a murder inquiry in to the death
0:01:03 > 0:01:04of another Russian exile.
0:01:04 > 0:01:07So how many other deaths in Britain are potentially linked to Russia?
0:01:07 > 0:01:10We speak to the Chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee.
0:01:10 > 0:01:14Should transgender women be included on Labour's all-women short lists?
0:01:14 > 0:01:16The party postpones a final decision.
0:01:16 > 0:01:18While a government consultation on changing the law
0:01:18 > 0:01:20appears to be on hold.
0:01:20 > 0:01:24Has the debate on transgender rights become toxic?
0:01:24 > 0:01:29In London, nine months on from the Grenfell Tower fire, are local
0:01:29 > 0:01:35businesses getting the help they need to get back on their feet?
0:01:38 > 0:01:41All that coming up in the programme.
0:01:41 > 0:01:45And with me today a panel of political insiders helping me
0:01:45 > 0:01:50to make sense of all the big stories:
0:01:50 > 0:01:53Matt Zarb-Cousin, Isabel Oakeshott and Lucy Fisher.
0:01:53 > 0:01:55Now, Russia's Vladimir Putin has already been out this
0:01:55 > 0:01:57morning to cast his vote in the Presidential elections.
0:01:57 > 0:01:59We'll be expecting the result later this evening,
0:01:59 > 0:02:02but you can probably guess who the frontrunner is.
0:02:02 > 0:02:05It comes at the end of a week in which UK-Russia relations turned
0:02:05 > 0:02:08positively sub-zero.
0:02:08 > 0:02:09President Putin.
0:02:09 > 0:02:11BBC News.
0:02:11 > 0:02:14Is Russia behind the poisoning of Sergei Skripal?
0:02:14 > 0:02:17This week the finger of blame for the Salisbury attack was
0:02:17 > 0:02:20pointed firmly in one direction.
0:02:21 > 0:02:22TRANSLATION:First, work out what actually happened
0:02:22 > 0:02:26there and then we'll talk about it.
0:02:26 > 0:02:29A deadline imposed by the British government
0:02:29 > 0:02:31calling on the Russians to provide answers came and went.
0:02:31 > 0:02:34The Prime Minister headed to the Commons to update MPs.
0:02:34 > 0:02:36They have treated the use of a military grade nerve agent
0:02:36 > 0:02:43in Europe with sarcasm, contempt and defiance.
0:02:43 > 0:02:49The only conclusion, she declared, was that the Russian state
0:02:49 > 0:02:52was responsible for the nerve agent attack on the Russian double agent
0:02:52 > 0:02:54Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia.
0:02:54 > 0:02:5723 Russian diplomats based here accused of being spies are to
0:02:57 > 0:02:59be kicked out of the country.
0:02:59 > 0:03:01Moscow responded by expelling 23 British
0:03:01 > 0:03:06embassy staff.
0:03:06 > 0:03:09UK-Russia relations are well and truly in the deep freeze.
0:03:09 > 0:03:11The Prime Minister's response to the crisis has
0:03:11 > 0:03:12won her some new fans.
0:03:12 > 0:03:14Hello.
0:03:14 > 0:03:17She got flowers and fist bumps in Salisbury on Thursday.
0:03:17 > 0:03:19The Defence Secretary had his own idiosyncratic message for Moscow.
0:03:19 > 0:03:24Frankly, Russia should go away, it should shut up.
0:03:24 > 0:03:27Go away, it should shut up.
0:03:27 > 0:03:31The Foreign Secretary escalated the row by going
0:03:31 > 0:03:33further and directly accusing Vladimir Putin of personally
0:03:33 > 0:03:35ordering the poisoning.
0:03:35 > 0:03:38Our quarrel is with Putin's Kremlin and with his
0:03:38 > 0:03:44decision, and we think it overwhelmingly likely that it was
0:03:44 > 0:03:47his decision, to direct the use of a nerve agent.
0:03:47 > 0:03:49Convention dictates that parties often come
0:03:49 > 0:03:52together on major foreign policy issues but Jeremy Corbyn is not a
0:03:52 > 0:03:55conventional politician.
0:03:55 > 0:03:58How has she responded to the Russian
0:03:58 > 0:04:02government's request for a sample of the agent used in the Salisbury
0:04:02 > 0:04:07attack to run its own tests?
0:04:07 > 0:04:09Shameful!
0:04:09 > 0:04:12That did not go down too well with some
0:04:12 > 0:04:15of his own MPs who tabled a motion expressing their support for the
0:04:15 > 0:04:16Prime Minister's response.
0:04:16 > 0:04:18But Mr Corbyn held his line, arguing in
0:04:18 > 0:04:20Friday's Guardian that we ought not to discount the possibility that
0:04:20 > 0:04:25Russian mafia gangs could have carried out the attack.
0:04:25 > 0:04:27Labour frontbenchers not exactly been
0:04:27 > 0:04:31toeing that line.
0:04:31 > 0:04:33We fully support the Government's action because we
0:04:33 > 0:04:34hold Russia responsible.
0:04:34 > 0:04:36There is no alternative explanation other than
0:04:36 > 0:04:39that responsibility lies with Russia.
0:04:39 > 0:04:41The US, France and Germany issued a joint statement of support
0:04:41 > 0:04:42for the UK.
0:04:42 > 0:04:45It's a very sad situation.
0:04:45 > 0:04:46It certainly looks like the Russians were behind it.
0:04:46 > 0:04:49Something that should never ever happen.
0:04:49 > 0:04:53Today is election day in Russia.
0:04:53 > 0:04:56And this crisis seems unlikely to hurt Putin's chances of
0:04:56 > 0:05:01re-election as Russia's President.
0:05:01 > 0:05:04So to pick up some of that news with our panel.
0:05:04 > 0:05:10Lucy, later this week the National Security Council will meet to talk
0:05:10 > 0:05:13about what further action the UK Government Meite, they briefed the
0:05:13 > 0:05:16BBC there is more in the locker, that was the phrase the useful
0:05:16 > 0:05:20support any idea what they might do next?There is a whole suite of
0:05:20 > 0:05:24options available to the government, the idea of clamp-down on visas for
0:05:24 > 0:05:27dubious Russian businessmen and their allies wanting to travel to
0:05:27 > 0:05:31the UK, there is talk on pulling the plug on RTE, the Kremlin backed
0:05:31 > 0:05:36broadcaster with Ruth Davidson calling for that they. The most
0:05:36 > 0:05:40important action the government could take is on the wealth, the
0:05:40 > 0:05:47Kremlin gold, and money swilling around the UK invested here by
0:05:47 > 0:05:50Russian oligarchs are linked to the Kremlin.Boss of people from Russian
0:05:50 > 0:05:55politician stomach opposition politicians who think would be the
0:05:55 > 0:05:58most effective route. That's what Labour are calling for and we
0:05:58 > 0:06:02haven't really heard that's what action the government will go in.
0:06:02 > 0:06:06These are quite short-term measures. What we're looking on with Russia is
0:06:06 > 0:06:10a much wider, long-term problem. What a lot of people in defence
0:06:10 > 0:06:13circles talk about is a more asymmetrical response, so rather
0:06:13 > 0:06:18than in addition to the measures Lucy has articulated, you need to
0:06:18 > 0:06:23look at the whole suite of things in terms of the disinformation campaign
0:06:23 > 0:06:28that Russia puts out, we need to look at where we can niggle Russia
0:06:28 > 0:06:32by supporting Ukraine a bit, supporting states like Azerbaijan
0:06:32 > 0:06:36and a much more hybrid response, I think.Matt Zarb-Cousin is, there
0:06:36 > 0:06:39has been a lot of discussion about Jeremy Corbyn's response to this
0:06:39 > 0:06:44this week. I'm interested, you know him well, give us an insight into
0:06:44 > 0:06:48what he is thinking. He supports the Government's actions while not being
0:06:48 > 0:06:51sure about the conclusion that the Russian state was responsible. Why
0:06:51 > 0:06:54support what they are doing if we don't support the conclusion?I
0:06:54 > 0:06:57think the Russian state is culpable and the Labour Party recognises
0:06:57 > 0:07:01that. I think we all agree that it isn't a proportionate response, it
0:07:01 > 0:07:06goes nowhere near far enough if the Russian state is culpable, to just
0:07:06 > 0:07:09expel 23 diplomats and say to the Royal family they are not going to
0:07:09 > 0:07:13the World Cup. So they have to find out obviously if the Russian state
0:07:13 > 0:07:18is culpable, and then once they have the evidence for that then obviously
0:07:18 > 0:07:21build that international coalition where we can actually take
0:07:21 > 0:07:23meaningful action, not these tokenistic measures. Even closing
0:07:23 > 0:07:29down Russia's Russia Today emboldens Putin, look at the West, they can
0:07:29 > 0:07:36censor, he will say. What we really have to do is go after Putin's kind
0:07:36 > 0:07:41of circle. There is oligarchs here, whether they are pro-or anti-Putin,
0:07:41 > 0:07:45who have been allowed to settle here and stow away their money here and
0:07:45 > 0:07:49they have been affected by Putin. If they are then affected by Putin, if
0:07:49 > 0:07:53we say you have to leave, then that is a very powerful coalition you are
0:07:53 > 0:07:58building against him.But Jeremy Corbyn still isn't convinced that
0:07:58 > 0:08:02the Russian state itself is responsible.No, neither is the
0:08:02 > 0:08:07government.He wouldn't back these actions until they were proved.It
0:08:07 > 0:08:11would be naive, it would be difficult to build an international
0:08:11 > 0:08:15coalition. Even the statement that Germany France and the US put out,
0:08:15 > 0:08:18the joint statement, said the nerve agent was of a type developed by
0:08:18 > 0:08:22Russia, not that it was developed by Russia. It looks increasingly likely
0:08:22 > 0:08:26that that nerve agent came from Russia and Russia have lost control
0:08:26 > 0:08:30of it, or have used it maliciously, but we don't know that yet and it's
0:08:30 > 0:08:34very difficult to take action until we do.There is a kind of false
0:08:34 > 0:08:38dichotomy here in this idea that somehow elements of Russian Mafia
0:08:38 > 0:08:42might be responsible. Welcome potentially they could be, but the
0:08:42 > 0:08:44idea that the Russian Mafia is in some way completely distinct from
0:08:44 > 0:08:49the Kremlin is a misunderstanding. In a sense, the Russian Mafia is in
0:08:49 > 0:08:54extra typically linked to the Kremlin. They are a sort of
0:08:54 > 0:08:59paramilitary wing of the Kremlin so it is a false dichotomy.Lucy,
0:08:59 > 0:09:02Jeremy Corbyn has taken a lot of flak for his response this week.
0:09:02 > 0:09:06Isn't it legitimate to be asking these questions when, as Matt says,
0:09:06 > 0:09:12even the French, US and German governments don't seem this --
0:09:12 > 0:09:17convinced this is state directed? Early in the week we saw some level
0:09:17 > 0:09:20of prevarication by Paris, Berlin and Washington and that has firmed
0:09:20 > 0:09:23up a lot. I think the quite unprecedented international joint
0:09:23 > 0:09:28statement put out by those allies and the UK goes a lot further than
0:09:28 > 0:09:32you say, Matt. I don't think it's as equivocal as perhaps you suggested.
0:09:32 > 0:09:37Some of the questions Jeremy Corbyn asks will kind of strike a chord
0:09:37 > 0:09:43with much of the public. I think, in particular, raising questions about
0:09:43 > 0:09:45the intelligence and exactly what is known is something that people will
0:09:45 > 0:09:50be thinking about in light of the 2003 Iraq War and some of the
0:09:50 > 0:09:54evidence being politically sexed up, people want to know that that's not
0:09:54 > 0:10:01the case here.Briefly.We don't know exactly how much Jeremy Corbyn
0:10:01 > 0:10:04had access to in terms of the intelligence as well. It could well
0:10:04 > 0:10:08be that the government... Boris Johnson and the Defence Secretary
0:10:08 > 0:10:10Gavin Williamson have gone much further and said... Boris Johnson
0:10:10 > 0:10:16said it is Putin.Overwhelmingly likely.Williamson said they should
0:10:16 > 0:10:20shut up and go away, or whatever he said. That suggests to me they are
0:10:20 > 0:10:23either going off message or they have seen more evidence that perhaps
0:10:23 > 0:10:26Corbyn has not seen.These are questions we will explore throughout
0:10:26 > 0:10:30the show and if you stay with us we will talk to you throughout the
0:10:30 > 0:10:30programme.
0:10:30 > 0:10:34Well, let's stick with this story because the Foreign Secretary has
0:10:34 > 0:10:36been speaking on the Andrew Marr Show this morning.
0:10:36 > 0:10:39He was asked how the Government could be certain that the Russian
0:10:39 > 0:10:40Government was responsible for the attack.
0:10:40 > 0:10:45We actually have evidence within the last ten years that Russia has not
0:10:45 > 0:10:49only been investigating the delivery of nerve agents for the purposes of
0:10:49 > 0:10:54assassination, but has also been creating and stockpiling Novichok.
0:10:54 > 0:11:01To the best of our knowledge, this is a Russian-made nerve agent that
0:11:01 > 0:11:05falls within the category Novichok, made only by Russia.
0:11:05 > 0:11:09I'm joined now by the Foreign Office Minister Sir Alan Duncan.
0:11:09 > 0:11:13Thank you for talking to us this morning. Russia have responded, as
0:11:13 > 0:11:21you know, to our expansion -- expulsion of 23 Russian diplomats by
0:11:21 > 0:11:25closing the consulate in St Petersburg. Is there a second phase
0:11:25 > 0:11:28of government action that will need to be reintroduced in order to take
0:11:28 > 0:11:35this further?We have lots of options. But this isn't just about
0:11:35 > 0:11:40counting heads. This is really about making clear to the world that one
0:11:40 > 0:11:44of the great achievements of the world since the Second World War,
0:11:44 > 0:11:48which is a convention to ban chemical weapons, has been violated.
0:11:48 > 0:11:55And it is clearly traceable back to a military grade nerve agent of
0:11:55 > 0:11:59Russian origin. We said to the Russians either you did it directly
0:11:59 > 0:12:02or you have lost control of this, tell us which. They basically just
0:12:02 > 0:12:08stuck their tongue out at us. Their irresponsible response to this
0:12:08 > 0:12:12points ever more to them as having done this, and so the response that
0:12:12 > 0:12:16we have done I think is proportionate. Yes, they have
0:12:16 > 0:12:19responded back. But what matters more than anything else is not that
0:12:19 > 0:12:22we now go into some kind of tit-for-tat stuff by accounting
0:12:22 > 0:12:26exact numbers and things like that, is that we actually corral the whole
0:12:26 > 0:12:31world to realise that Russia is totally out of order here and that
0:12:31 > 0:12:35the Chemical Weapons Convention has been violated in a way that could do
0:12:35 > 0:12:40enormous damage to the world in any country this happens to happen in,
0:12:40 > 0:12:43in this case the UK, and that is what we will do.You are calling for
0:12:43 > 0:12:49a concerted international action, what would that look like?We are
0:12:49 > 0:12:54already very grateful to the very clear response we have had from a
0:12:54 > 0:12:57lot of countries. I was in the Balkans over the weekend with
0:12:57 > 0:13:01countries like Macedonia and Kosovo, and they were very, very clear in
0:13:01 > 0:13:06their condemnation of this, because they themselves are countries which
0:13:06 > 0:13:10suffer from wider Russian interference. But we have the EU
0:13:10 > 0:13:13foreign ministers meeting tomorrow, they will be a Prime Minister level
0:13:13 > 0:13:17March European Council on Friday, we have already had an open discussion
0:13:17 > 0:13:22in the UN at which the Russian representative cut a very, very
0:13:22 > 0:13:24lonely figure, and this is clearly a Russian violation of the Chemical
0:13:24 > 0:13:29Weapons Convention and we will cooperate with the Organisation for
0:13:29 > 0:13:33the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons to prove even further what we know
0:13:33 > 0:13:37to be the case.When it comes to international action, a former UK
0:13:37 > 0:13:41ambassador to Russia, agrees with you that we need to take action
0:13:41 > 0:13:46along with others and says the sanctions imposed by the EU after
0:13:46 > 0:13:49Crimea 2014 surprise the Kremlin and continue to have an impact because
0:13:49 > 0:13:55they were EU wide, but went on to say Brexit has made Britain's task
0:13:55 > 0:13:58harder in appealing for EU solidarity this week and the kind of
0:13:58 > 0:14:03international action you are looking for.I think that is total nonsense,
0:14:03 > 0:14:09Brexit doesn't have an impact on this and we are still part of the EU
0:14:09 > 0:14:12and we operate EU sanctions collaboratively and we're passing
0:14:12 > 0:14:16legislation through the House of Commons which will give us
0:14:16 > 0:14:19autonomous actions regime following the departure from the EU, and we
0:14:19 > 0:14:26will include in that what I hope will be a firm cross-party said
0:14:26 > 0:14:29statement from the House of Commons that the Magnitsky clause, as people
0:14:29 > 0:14:33have been campaigning for, will be included in the sanctions and
0:14:33 > 0:14:38anti-money-laundering Bill. And the passage of this bill predated the
0:14:38 > 0:14:44Salisbury incident, has always been something we wanted the whole of the
0:14:44 > 0:14:46House of Commons today, not just something in a committee during
0:14:46 > 0:14:51passage of the bill.Labour tried to introduce an amendment to that bill
0:14:51 > 0:14:54with the Magnitsky clause and you wear minister in the Bill committee
0:14:54 > 0:14:58that rejected those amendments two weeks ago. -- you wear minister.I
0:14:58 > 0:15:03answer the question before you ask the question, which is we wanted it
0:15:03 > 0:15:08to be done on the whole floor of the house and in the phrasing of the
0:15:08 > 0:15:12amendment it wasn't consistent with some of the other parts of the act.
0:15:12 > 0:15:16-- you were a minister. We have an understanding that we hope will be a
0:15:16 > 0:15:19cross-party thing and that will send a clear message to the world that
0:15:19 > 0:15:23the House of Commons, along with countries who have done it already,
0:15:23 > 0:15:26will be aligned with the Magnitsky proposal, which campaigners have
0:15:26 > 0:15:31been wanting.
0:15:31 > 0:15:37The Magnitsky powers would allow you to take actions against individuals
0:15:37 > 0:15:40guilty of gross human rights violations. That doesn't allow you
0:15:40 > 0:15:47to attack the money of Putin allies unless you can find them guilty of
0:15:47 > 0:15:51gross human rights violations so it wouldn't really allow you to respond
0:15:51 > 0:15:56to this attack, would it?Again, I'm afraid you're totally wrong and
0:15:56 > 0:15:59don't understand the wording of the bill because it is not only gross
0:15:59 > 0:16:03human rights violations in the bill. There are many purposes included in
0:16:03 > 0:16:07the list of things you can do under the legislation and it does include
0:16:07 > 0:16:11what you have just described.But the powers the Government has
0:16:11 > 0:16:14already on going after things like this, like unexplained wealth
0:16:14 > 0:16:19orders, have been used only once since they were introduced. There
0:16:19 > 0:16:23haven't been much evidence the Government was serious in tackling
0:16:23 > 0:16:27corrupt money brought in through London.That's because the
0:16:27 > 0:16:30legislation has only recently come in and of course it's not
0:16:30 > 0:16:33politicians who make these decisions. There's a distinction
0:16:33 > 0:16:37between the liberal democracy in which we live, where judges on the
0:16:37 > 0:16:43law take their course from politicians. And what we think is
0:16:43 > 0:16:48happening in Russia, which is not a real democracy, we are looking at a
0:16:48 > 0:16:52pretty odd election taking place today where Vladimir Putin will
0:16:52 > 0:16:57undoubtedly be supposedly re-elected for the fourth time. That is a deep
0:16:57 > 0:17:01distinction between our values and bears. One of the great values we
0:17:01 > 0:17:05have seen in the world is the creation of the chemical weapons
0:17:05 > 0:17:10Convention. Jeremy Corbyn has always been the great disarm and here we
0:17:10 > 0:17:14have a violation of the ideological, the sort of principled convention
0:17:14 > 0:17:19that has been built up over many decades, violated in our own
0:17:19 > 0:17:25country, which is why I think many young people are disappointed with
0:17:25 > 0:17:28his response.Ben Wallace, the security minister, said we have
0:17:28 > 0:17:33allowed nasty individuals to come to the City of London and launder
0:17:33 > 0:17:35illicit money. That sounds like an admission that until now this
0:17:35 > 0:17:41Government hasn't been doing enough to tackle corrupt money in London.I
0:17:41 > 0:17:47think we are amassing the powers to tackle exactly the kind of issue he
0:17:47 > 0:17:51has identified, and indeed Ben Wallace is the security minister who
0:17:51 > 0:17:56has been supporting this, pressing for it and administering it from the
0:17:56 > 0:18:00Home Office point of view. We have to make a proper distinction though
0:18:00 > 0:18:03without compromising our values between those who are guilty and
0:18:03 > 0:18:08those who are not. Not every oligarch is guilty and not every
0:18:08 > 0:18:13rich Russian is necessarily a crony of Putin and someone who should be
0:18:13 > 0:18:17subject to sanctions so we need to approach this without compromising
0:18:17 > 0:18:22our values. But there is something much more important than this, what
0:18:22 > 0:18:26really matters is the world needs to realise that if we allow chemical
0:18:26 > 0:18:30weapons to slip into use any more that's happened now, we will live in
0:18:30 > 0:18:35a much more dangerous world and one which is tearing up the rule book,
0:18:35 > 0:18:39throwing away the chemical weapons Convention which has been in place
0:18:39 > 0:18:44for so many decades, indeed it was one of the great idealistic
0:18:44 > 0:18:48achievements of the post war world that we put this in place so we have
0:18:48 > 0:18:54to the robust in pointing the finger at Russia and saying this violation
0:18:54 > 0:19:00by the use of chemical weapons is simply not acceptable.Thank you for
0:19:00 > 0:19:00that.
0:19:00 > 0:19:03Well, earlier this week the police announced that they were launching
0:19:03 > 0:19:05a murder inquiry in to the death of another Russian businessman
0:19:05 > 0:19:06living in Britain.
0:19:06 > 0:19:08A pathologist's report says Nikolai Glushkov died
0:19:08 > 0:19:10of "compression to the neck" after being found dead
0:19:10 > 0:19:11at his home on Monday.
0:19:11 > 0:19:14The Metropolitan Police say there is no evidence to suggest
0:19:14 > 0:19:16a link to the attempted murder of Sergei and Yulia Skripal.
0:19:16 > 0:19:19But the Home Office has announced it will investigate a number
0:19:19 > 0:19:21of other unexplained deaths following the Skripal case.
0:19:21 > 0:19:29Yvette Cooper is the Chair of The Home Affairs Select Committee.
0:19:30 > 0:19:34You specifically asked the Home Secretary to investigate 14 other
0:19:34 > 0:19:39deaths that you are worried may have had Russian involvement, do you have
0:19:39 > 0:19:44much evidence for that?My concern is that any area where there are
0:19:44 > 0:19:48allegations that there may have been either Russian involvement or
0:19:48 > 0:19:52suspicious circumstances that may need to be investigated should be,
0:19:52 > 0:19:56because I think we have to have the full facts. There was a BuzzFeed
0:19:56 > 0:20:01investigation that made allegations about 14 cases, there are other
0:20:01 > 0:20:06concerns raised about others. It's not for me to judge the individual
0:20:06 > 0:20:11circumstances, my concern is these cases, where there have been
0:20:11 > 0:20:16preliminary conclusions of suicide or natural causes or accident, that
0:20:16 > 0:20:19actually there may be further evidence of more suspicious
0:20:19 > 0:20:24circumstances, they should now be reviewed by the Home Office and
0:20:24 > 0:20:28police.The Home Office have said they will do that but if you look at
0:20:28 > 0:20:35the the case of someone who died in 2012, Surrey police says they will
0:20:35 > 0:20:40not reinvestigate so will they be able to cover new evidence?I assume
0:20:40 > 0:20:45the Home Office will assure there is a review of all of these cases. The
0:20:45 > 0:20:49Home Office Secretary will want to satisfy herself that every corner
0:20:49 > 0:20:53has been looked into and this has been done properly and we get to the
0:20:53 > 0:20:57bottom of this. I do accept the priority for them at the moment must
0:20:57 > 0:21:01be this current investigation and the current circumstances in
0:21:01 > 0:21:06Salisbury and where those investigations lead, but they will
0:21:06 > 0:21:11need I think to follow up by looking at these other cases as well.So you
0:21:11 > 0:21:16have any doubt that what happened in Salisbury was directed by the
0:21:16 > 0:21:19Russian state?I share the conclusions of the French, German
0:21:19 > 0:21:23and British government that it is implausible the Russian state wasn't
0:21:23 > 0:21:27involved in some way or another.So Jeremy Corbyn is wrong when he says
0:21:27 > 0:21:34it is either the Russian state or a chemical weapon that got out of
0:21:34 > 0:21:37control and into other people's hands?We don't know which
0:21:37 > 0:21:42individuals caused the attack and how the nerve agent was brought into
0:21:42 > 0:21:46the country, we also don't know which bit of the Russian state was
0:21:46 > 0:21:50particularly involved, but I think the clear evidence, the way in which
0:21:50 > 0:21:56the Russian government has been behaving since this happened really
0:21:56 > 0:22:00is not the behaviour of a government that is saying we weren't involved
0:22:00 > 0:22:04and we want to help get to the bottom of this because we take it
0:22:04 > 0:22:15seriously. This morning the Russian Embassy has been tweeting
0:22:15 > 0:22:22Embassy has been tweeting pictures of Hercule Poirot.So are you
0:22:22 > 0:22:26embarrassed by Jeremy Corbyn saying there isn't enough evidence to link
0:22:26 > 0:22:30this to the Kremlin?This morning John McDonnell said we should
0:22:30 > 0:22:34condemn the Russian government for the way it's behaved on this, and
0:22:34 > 0:22:38that the Russian government is responsible, and I agreed with him,
0:22:38 > 0:22:45and he went further than Theresa May by pointing the finger at Putin,
0:22:45 > 0:22:49something similar to what Boris Johnson has said, so I think there's
0:22:49 > 0:22:52a recognition that even though we don't know which individual
0:22:52 > 0:22:56delivered the nerve agent there is responsibility here in the Russian
0:22:56 > 0:23:02state and I think some part of the security service is what we expect
0:23:02 > 0:23:07as well.It was clear in the House of Commons this week there were
0:23:07 > 0:23:11senior Labour MPs like yourself uncomfortable with Jeremy Corbyn's
0:23:11 > 0:23:17position. There's also been reports this has been seen as a watershed
0:23:17 > 0:23:21moment by some moderate Labour MPs wondering what they are doing in
0:23:21 > 0:23:25Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party and revived talk of a breakaway party,
0:23:25 > 0:23:33is that something you have heard about?I think this is a load of
0:23:33 > 0:23:38rubbish. I have not heard this so I think this is in danger of
0:23:38 > 0:23:43spiralling ever outwards and we are also in danger of making this an
0:23:43 > 0:23:47issue about domestic politics at a time when there is very serious
0:23:47 > 0:23:50international issues here that we should be focusing on and coming
0:23:50 > 0:23:54together to focus on as well.That's why it becomes a domestic issue
0:23:54 > 0:24:00because it's at times like this you might expect the leader of
0:24:00 > 0:24:02opposition to back-up the Prime Minister, you were clearly
0:24:02 > 0:24:05uncomfortable with the way he did not do that, so it has consequences
0:24:05 > 0:24:10within the Labour Party.As I understand it, Jeremy has said that
0:24:10 > 0:24:15the evidence points to wash, that also he supports all of the measures
0:24:15 > 0:24:20and that's really important that
0:24:21 > 0:24:21and that's really important that you have unanimity about the actions
0:24:21 > 0:24:26that need to be taken, and calling for further action around the
0:24:26 > 0:24:29economic sanctions. They understand he wanted to wait for further
0:24:29 > 0:24:34evidence before going further and criticising the Russian government.
0:24:34 > 0:24:37Obviously John McDonnell has criticised the Russian government
0:24:37 > 0:24:41today, but I'm not going to criticise Jeremy for taking a
0:24:41 > 0:24:45slightly different view because I think there's been too much
0:24:45 > 0:24:48temperature in this and you have heard people being called warmongers
0:24:48 > 0:24:53for condemning the Russian state, you've also heard people being
0:24:53 > 0:25:03called appeasers for asking further questions.
0:25:03 > 0:25:06questions. None of that helps. We are not talking about military
0:25:06 > 0:25:07action, we are talking about systematic diplomatic measures,
0:25:07 > 0:25:09criminal investigation measures and I hope there can be unanimity about
0:25:09 > 0:25:12what those measures should be. Yvonne Cooper, thank you. I will
0:25:12 > 0:25:18just pick up some of that with the panel. Lucy Fisher, it was clear
0:25:18 > 0:25:22listening to Yvette Cooper, and Shami Chakrabarti, very much in the
0:25:22 > 0:25:25Labour Party people who seemed to be at odds at the beginning of the week
0:25:25 > 0:25:32as saying there is nothing to see here, is that true?I'm not entirely
0:25:32 > 0:25:37convinced, I think this has opened up old wounds in the Labour Party,
0:25:37 > 0:25:41the front bench has been strained by this response, and while we were
0:25:41 > 0:25:45talking about how some of the questions he has asked are valid,
0:25:45 > 0:25:51tonally I think the response has upset a lot of Labour MPs, including
0:25:51 > 0:25:54those who have called for the Commons to unequivocally condemn the
0:25:54 > 0:26:09Russian state.Matt Zarb Cousin, Labour has been
0:26:09 > 0:26:13Labour has been calling for -- the Government have been calling for
0:26:13 > 0:26:16Magnitsky clauses, exactly what Jeremy Corbyn called forth. Were you
0:26:16 > 0:26:23satisfied with what you heard from from Alan Duncan?No, they are
0:26:23 > 0:26:26watered down compared to what Jeremy Corbyn had in the manifesto in the
0:26:26 > 0:26:30last election. I think there is an agreement among the Labour Party now
0:26:30 > 0:26:34and the front bench particularly that the Russian state is culpable
0:26:34 > 0:26:40and that is shared across the house. You are still couple books under the
0:26:40 > 0:26:46chemicals weapons Convention if you lose control of the nerve agent,
0:26:46 > 0:26:50which is what happened.Now the Conservative government is serious
0:26:50 > 0:26:54about financial powers in order to target corrupt money? David Cameron
0:26:54 > 0:26:58said one of his great regrets is that he never introduced me
0:26:58 > 0:27:03Magnitsky powers, the Government say they will go ahead with it, is it
0:27:03 > 0:27:09powers they will use in a meaningful way?I think they are absolutely
0:27:09 > 0:27:14serious. The national security adviser said he understands this, as
0:27:14 > 0:27:17does the intelligence minister Ben Wallace, they have already used
0:27:17 > 0:27:24these new powers about freezing the assets on unexplained wealth. A
0:27:24 > 0:27:28fairly new measure which has already been implemented in at least one
0:27:28 > 0:27:32case as I understand it. I want to come back on your comments, you say
0:27:32 > 0:27:37the Labour Party is singing as one, I don't pick that up from the
0:27:37 > 0:27:42rhetoric. I felt Yvette Cooper was extraordinarily diplomatic, but
0:27:42 > 0:27:45trying to paper over serious cracks within the Parliamentary party about
0:27:45 > 0:27:51Labour's position on this. It is clear Jeremy Corbyn doubts the
0:27:51 > 0:27:56intelligence on it.It is not the intelligence he doubts, it is the
0:27:56 > 0:27:59way the intelligence has been interpreted by the Government, and
0:27:59 > 0:28:02I'm talking about intelligence he perhaps hasn't seen so we don't know
0:28:02 > 0:28:09how much he has seen. Theresa May, as Lucy's story showed this week,
0:28:09 > 0:28:13hasn't necessarily shown the Leader of the Opposition and chief of staff
0:28:13 > 0:28:18everything. It is the same as Iraq in a sense. It is not the
0:28:18 > 0:28:21intelligence itself necessarily, it is how the Government uses the
0:28:21 > 0:28:24intelligence, and that's when it comes back to the nerve agent being
0:28:24 > 0:28:31of a type developed by Russia. OK, talking of cracks in the Labour
0:28:31 > 0:28:35Party we have another story...
0:28:35 > 0:28:37On Tuesday the Labour Party were expected to rubber
0:28:37 > 0:28:39stamp their support for transgender women to be included
0:28:39 > 0:28:41on all-women short lists.
0:28:41 > 0:28:43But this programme has learned that that announcement has been delayed
0:28:43 > 0:28:45so that arguments on all sides can be heard.
0:28:45 > 0:28:47The rights of the transgender community have also become part
0:28:47 > 0:28:50of a wider conversation in Westminster after the government
0:28:50 > 0:28:52backed calls to simplify the legal process to for someone
0:28:52 > 0:28:53to change their gender.
0:28:53 > 0:28:56Greg Dawson reports.
0:28:58 > 0:29:00This is Heather Peto.
0:29:00 > 0:29:04I've always known I'm a woman, it's when I became a teenager that
0:29:04 > 0:29:07I really sort of like felt the pressure to be who I was.
0:29:07 > 0:29:12And, at the next general election, she wants to make political history.
0:29:12 > 0:29:16I'd like to be one of the first transgender MPs in Parliament.
0:29:16 > 0:29:18But that ambition has propelled her and others
0:29:18 > 0:29:21to the centre of a significant row in the Labour Party
0:29:21 > 0:29:23after she was included on an all women's short list
0:29:23 > 0:29:30as a Parliamentary candidate.
0:29:30 > 0:29:36I don't think it's an issue to be honest. I think the local party
0:29:36 > 0:29:40decides and the best candidates will get through so I don't think it is
0:29:40 > 0:29:45an issue. I think it's being made an issue by some people that are more
0:29:45 > 0:29:47anti-transgender, but local people don't seem to be worried.
0:29:47 > 0:29:50Labour say they've always welcomed self-identifying trans women
0:29:50 > 0:29:52onto all women's short lists but that policy has recently
0:29:52 > 0:29:54come under attack.
0:29:54 > 0:29:56Enter the self-described radical feminists who descended
0:29:56 > 0:29:58on Parliament this week for a meeting they titled
0:29:58 > 0:30:06"transgender and the war on women".
0:30:06 > 0:30:09They've been described as transphobic, a label they reject.
0:30:09 > 0:30:11I can see already there are trans-identifying
0:30:11 > 0:30:13men cynically use - what I feel - are cynically
0:30:13 > 0:30:19using those positions.
0:30:19 > 0:30:21You've got Heather Peto who is the trans-inclusionary officer
0:30:21 > 0:30:24of the Labour Party, he went on to an all
0:30:24 > 0:30:25women's short list.
0:30:25 > 0:30:28The fact that you are referencing Heather as 'he' against her wishes
0:30:28 > 0:30:30would be insulting to her.
0:30:30 > 0:30:35I could go on and on about preferred pronouns.
0:30:35 > 0:30:37Once we start using she for a man, we are blurring the distinction.
0:30:38 > 0:30:42Venice Allan is a Labour member but those views got her suspended.
0:30:42 > 0:30:45She knows what she says is offensive to the trans community
0:30:45 > 0:30:50but makes no apology for it.
0:30:50 > 0:30:53I really do want to have this conversation, like I say,
0:30:53 > 0:30:56you don't have to agree with us but you do have to listen to us.
0:30:56 > 0:30:59Like the Labour Party, you know, they're not listening.
0:30:59 > 0:31:01I've tried to set up Momentum events, Labour events, I've tried
0:31:01 > 0:31:05to meet with Jeremy Corbyn and other politicians.
0:31:05 > 0:31:11Labour were supposed to formally clarify their support for trans
0:31:11 > 0:31:13women on all-women short lists at a meeting at the
0:31:13 > 0:31:14party's HQ this week.
0:31:14 > 0:31:16We've been told that decision would have triggered
0:31:16 > 0:31:20the resignations of more than 200 female members.
0:31:20 > 0:31:20Then yesterday, Labour told us that formal discussion
0:31:20 > 0:31:23was delayed until June.
0:31:24 > 0:31:28This is all a precursor to a much wider political debate
0:31:28 > 0:31:30going on with the Government committing to update
0:31:30 > 0:31:32the Gender Recognition Act.
0:31:32 > 0:31:35As the Prime Minister has explained, the changes would allow people
0:31:35 > 0:31:37to self define their gender without the need for
0:31:37 > 0:31:40medical diagnosis.
0:31:40 > 0:31:43We have set out plans to reform the Gender Recognition Act,
0:31:43 > 0:31:46streamlining and demedicalising the process for changing gender,
0:31:46 > 0:31:48because being trans is not an illness and it shouldn't be
0:31:48 > 0:31:55treated as such.
0:31:56 > 0:32:02Since she made that speech at the Pink Awards last October,
0:32:02 > 0:32:04progress on those changes to the Gender Recognition Act seems
0:32:04 > 0:32:05to have slowed down.
0:32:05 > 0:32:10A consultation was expected in the autumn but nothing surfaced.
0:32:10 > 0:32:13I've asked the Government what's going on and they just say in this
0:32:13 > 0:32:15very short statement that a consultation will be published
0:32:15 > 0:32:20in due course, but no date given.
0:32:20 > 0:32:24And our various requests to speak to politicians both in favour
0:32:24 > 0:32:27and opposed to these changes were all turned down, which came
0:32:27 > 0:32:28as little surprise to some.
0:32:28 > 0:32:30I know journalists and I know politicians who have
0:32:30 > 0:32:33questions about this, who have doubts about it,
0:32:33 > 0:32:39who don't dare express those doubts, raise those questions,
0:32:39 > 0:32:42because they are worried that if they do they will be screamed at,
0:32:42 > 0:32:44they will be accused of bigotry and transphobia simply
0:32:44 > 0:32:47for asking questions.
0:32:47 > 0:32:50James Kirkup has written a number of columns on the updates to the act
0:32:50 > 0:32:52and isn't sure it's been properly thought through.
0:32:52 > 0:32:57There are questions about access to safe spaces for women
0:32:57 > 0:32:59in domestic violence refuges, there are questions
0:32:59 > 0:33:01about the collection, collation of statistics
0:33:01 > 0:33:04on crime, on pay.
0:33:04 > 0:33:08Questions that should be asked, debated, discussed and answered.
0:33:08 > 0:33:15Heather Peto says the changes are long overdue though,
0:33:15 > 0:33:17and hopes she can one day speak up for the rights of the
0:33:17 > 0:33:19trans-community from the benches of the House of Commons.
0:33:19 > 0:33:22As a feminist, I would stand up to that and say, no,
0:33:22 > 0:33:24I will just be who I am.
0:33:24 > 0:33:27I have the self-confidence that I'm a woman and I always have been,
0:33:27 > 0:33:33and people should just accept me for that.
0:33:33 > 0:33:37The two chip significant issues to pick about bout the Labour Party and
0:33:37 > 0:33:40the Government's consultation about transgender rights, let me start
0:33:40 > 0:33:46with you, Matt -- two significant issues. The government is in a
0:33:46 > 0:33:51terrible tangle on transgender women on all women short lists and they've
0:33:51 > 0:33:56had to put it off until June.Self identifying trans-woman has never
0:33:56 > 0:34:00been disbarred from being on a women's short list in the Labour
0:34:00 > 0:34:05selection. The consultation was, as I understand it, coming up with a
0:34:05 > 0:34:10form of words...Clarifying the position that trans-women are
0:34:10 > 0:34:14elaborate rules to be on all women short lists, it has caused such
0:34:14 > 0:34:17around the party with two prominent members threatening to resign if
0:34:17 > 0:34:20that warning is put in, that the party has been bucking the decision
0:34:20 > 0:34:24and kicking it into the long grass. The conversations I have had with
0:34:24 > 0:34:27the leader's of this suggest that is not the case, they are still
0:34:27 > 0:34:31consulting on it and exactly what the form of words will be there is
0:34:31 > 0:34:36no actual plan as far as I'm aware to stop trans-women self identifying
0:34:36 > 0:34:40and being on a women's short list. Can I ask how many trans-women are
0:34:40 > 0:34:49applying to be on all women short lists?I'm not sure.I suspect it is
0:34:49 > 0:34:52zero.Heather Peto is one of them in the film, there may be several.
0:34:52 > 0:34:59There may be but I suspect it is less than the number of women on
0:34:59 > 0:34:59this.
0:35:04 > 0:35:07Not from any disparaging how difficult it must be to be in that
0:35:07 > 0:35:10situation. There would be a simple way of resolving the switch would be
0:35:10 > 0:35:13not to have all women short lists and select the best candidates for
0:35:13 > 0:35:21the job.It is also about whether Labour MPs have access to the
0:35:21 > 0:35:25leadership programme, whether they can stand as women's officers in
0:35:25 > 0:35:28local parties. What Labour did is they jumped the gun by saying it is
0:35:28 > 0:35:34fine, or self identifying trans-women can have access to these
0:35:34 > 0:35:37full rights. I think it is quite welcome to have a consultation.
0:35:37 > 0:35:40Politics is the art of persuasion and there was no real attempt by the
0:35:40 > 0:35:45Labour leadership to bring the party, bring some of the feminist...
0:35:45 > 0:35:48There are radical feminists in the party who will take more than a bit
0:35:48 > 0:35:52of gentle persuasion to get accustomed to the idea that people
0:35:52 > 0:35:55who were born men should be on an all women short list.That's right
0:35:55 > 0:36:03but as we saw in the VT they are asking for an opportunity to be
0:36:06 > 0:36:09heard and the debate to be had so it is quite welcome there will be a
0:36:09 > 0:36:11consultation.It's not just the Labour Party that seems to have
0:36:11 > 0:36:14kicked on this issue of it, we don't know what happened to the
0:36:14 > 0:36:16Government's consultation on making it easier to self identify as a man
0:36:16 > 0:36:19or woman. That's going to be a difficult one for the government.
0:36:19 > 0:36:21Remember the culture wars within the toy party that David Cameron fought
0:36:21 > 0:36:24over gay marriage.Absolutely and this is even much more complicated
0:36:24 > 0:36:28and a sensitive issue. It is so easy and I've been guilty of it myself to
0:36:28 > 0:36:34get the language are wrong on this, to upset people, and I can only
0:36:34 > 0:36:38imagine the Prime Minister's qualms about opening this can of worms
0:36:38 > 0:36:41within her own party, where there will be people who are incredibly
0:36:41 > 0:36:49off message about it. It seems they are pushing agendas are long grass
0:36:49 > 0:36:52and there are bigger issues to worry about.You are talking about 2000 or
0:36:52 > 0:36:583000 people in a party of 650,000. It is a rounding error.In the
0:36:58 > 0:37:03Labour Party, you're talking about? It is not splitting the party, it is
0:37:03 > 0:37:07a small minority of women who don't believe in trans-rights, that's it.
0:37:07 > 0:37:10Interesting to hear Theresa May talking about the Government's
0:37:10 > 0:37:13consultation. That was a clear statement she made at the pink news
0:37:13 > 0:37:16conference saying she wanted to streamline this and trans-wasn't a
0:37:16 > 0:37:21mental health issue, she made a strong commitment to trans-rights
0:37:21 > 0:37:24and she didn't have to do that.She didn't at all and it was fascinating
0:37:24 > 0:37:30she went as far as that. It is not unprecedented. Ireland, Argentina,
0:37:30 > 0:37:34Colombia and Malta have changed their processes to deep apologise it
0:37:34 > 0:37:37so it is merely a legal process and that is what the government is
0:37:37 > 0:37:43getting at. My understanding is for a person to legally change their
0:37:43 > 0:37:46gender they have to live as their desired gender for two years and
0:37:46 > 0:37:49they have to have psychiatric evaluations and medical opinions
0:37:49 > 0:37:54from two doctors and tests that some have claimed are incredibly
0:37:54 > 0:38:01traumatising. It can be made legal process from precedents aboard.We
0:38:01 > 0:38:03will carry on talking to you throughout the programme.
0:38:03 > 0:38:06It's coming up to 11:40am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
0:38:06 > 0:38:07Still to come -
0:38:07 > 0:38:10There is a big row brewing in the Brexit Select Committee
0:38:10 > 0:38:12and I'll be talking to its Chairman - Hilary Benn.
0:38:12 > 0:38:19First though, it's time for the Sunday Politics where you are.
0:38:22 > 0:38:24Hello and welcome to the London part of the show.
0:38:24 > 0:38:29I'm Jo Coburn.
0:38:29 > 0:38:31I'm joined for the duration by Vicky Foxcroft, Labour MP
0:38:31 > 0:38:34for Lewisham Deptford and Mark Field, the Conservative MP
0:38:34 > 0:38:37for the Cities of London and Westminster, who is also
0:38:37 > 0:38:39a minister in the Foreign Office.
0:38:39 > 0:38:43Welcome to both of you.Good morning.
0:38:43 > 0:38:46Now I want to start with a subject in which both our guests take
0:38:46 > 0:38:49a particular interest as members of the Youth Violence Commission,
0:38:49 > 0:38:50the problem of knife crime.
0:38:50 > 0:38:52On Wednesday at Prime Minister's Question Time,
0:38:52 > 0:38:56Vicky raised the issue of access to knives.
0:38:56 > 0:39:00Youth violence is complex and needs long-term solutions.
0:39:00 > 0:39:03But some things can be done right now such as
0:39:03 > 0:39:05legislating to ensure that all knives and sharp instruments in
0:39:05 > 0:39:07shops are locked away, or stored behind counters,
0:39:07 > 0:39:10ensuring that no one can steal them and use them.
0:39:10 > 0:39:11Will she do this?
0:39:11 > 0:39:16SPEAKER:Prime Minister.
0:39:16 > 0:39:19The Honourable Lady has raised an important issue and, as
0:39:19 > 0:39:23she says, this is a complex problem and we need to ensure we have
0:39:23 > 0:39:27long-term solutions for it.
0:39:27 > 0:39:34My Right Honourable friend, the Home Secretary, will shortly be
0:39:34 > 0:39:36publishing a new Serious Violence Strategy which will put an emphasis
0:39:36 > 0:39:38on interventions early with young people.
0:39:38 > 0:39:40But it's important we have tough legislation on knives.
0:39:40 > 0:39:42But we also do need to work in partnership
0:39:42 > 0:39:43with retailers.
0:39:43 > 0:39:46We have recently consulted on new measures including
0:39:46 > 0:39:49restrictions on knives sold online, and in March 2016 when I was Home
0:39:49 > 0:39:50Secretary we reached a voluntary agreement
0:39:50 > 0:39:52with major retailers about
0:39:52 > 0:39:55how knives were displayed and the training given to sales staff to
0:39:55 > 0:39:57support action to tackle knife crime.
0:39:57 > 0:40:03But the Honourable Lady is right to raise this as an area of concern.
0:40:04 > 0:40:08You raised this at PMQs. How will simply changing where knives are
0:40:08 > 0:40:12kept, removing them from shop floors, deal with the issue of knife
0:40:12 > 0:40:16crime in London?I think that's absolutely right, I raised one issue
0:40:16 > 0:40:21but actually in terms of the work we have been working on in terms of the
0:40:21 > 0:40:23cross-party Youth Violence Commission it is very much taking a
0:40:23 > 0:40:29root and branch look at everything and really a long-term view of
0:40:29 > 0:40:33stuff, so any strategy needs to be a long-term strategy that looks at the
0:40:33 > 0:40:36trauma that young people are facing. Have you got any figures around how
0:40:36 > 0:40:41many knives are taken or stolen from shop floors to indicate this is a
0:40:41 > 0:40:44problem that needs addressing?This is one of the things that we did try
0:40:44 > 0:40:48and go and gather, those figures, but those figures are not recorded,
0:40:48 > 0:40:51you can either get the figures for the number of things that have been
0:40:51 > 0:40:54shoplifted, or the figures for the number of knife crime incidents.
0:40:54 > 0:40:59None of that is entirely reliable. Can I pay credit to Vicky, she has
0:40:59 > 0:41:04been the leading light in this forum, not least the commission's
0:41:04 > 0:41:11work, I was part of two or years ago before I became a minister and I can
0:41:11 > 0:41:14do less work on it now. This is a classic area where parliamentarians
0:41:14 > 0:41:17can work together on a cross-party basis, we are trying to get evidence
0:41:17 > 0:41:21together and one of the things we have discovered is it is difficult
0:41:21 > 0:41:24to get evidence about the issues of knife crime in the numerical terms
0:41:24 > 0:41:27but the other thing is the gang culture to which we refer is
0:41:27 > 0:41:31changing fast, more and more young people get involved in gangs, the
0:41:31 > 0:41:35sense that the mechanics in the way gangs operate is changing, a lot of
0:41:35 > 0:41:39it has tended to be with postcodes within particular states. That is
0:41:39 > 0:41:42changing and we are finding in Westminster in the centre of London
0:41:42 > 0:41:50Berra links between gangs and groups in Suffolk, what one might call the
0:41:50 > 0:41:54free Suffolk Ipswich and place like that, where a lot of the drugs trade
0:41:54 > 0:41:57goes on. This is where the work being done by this commission is
0:41:57 > 0:41:59going to be invaluable feeding into the Home Office in order to get some
0:41:59 > 0:42:04laws that will work for the future but also being flexible.Are you in
0:42:04 > 0:42:07favour of legislating? Are you in favour of this suggestion of
0:42:07 > 0:42:11ensuring that knives are not left out on the shop floor, or do you not
0:42:11 > 0:42:19think this is a key part of the proposal to try and bring down knife
0:42:19 > 0:42:22crime?To be honest, I think there is now almost an epidemic of knife
0:42:22 > 0:42:25crime in London in particular, and not that we need to do something for
0:42:25 > 0:42:26something's sake but the availability of knives is pretty
0:42:26 > 0:42:29horrific and to try and do something along the lines Vicky has pointed
0:42:29 > 0:42:35out would be a sensible first step. How bad is it in Lewisham?It is
0:42:35 > 0:42:38pretty bad, it's the whole reason I started talking about this issue
0:42:38 > 0:42:41because very quickly after I was first elected as an MP two young
0:42:41 > 0:42:45people were murdered, now it is seven young people, but it's the
0:42:45 > 0:42:49impact it has on the whole community. Every time I go into a
0:42:49 > 0:42:53school children know somebody else who has been murdered. This is the
0:42:53 > 0:42:56reason why in terms of the work of the commission, and the reason why
0:42:56 > 0:43:00it is really important that it is cross-party, is we can't keep having
0:43:00 > 0:43:04strategies that are just four years. Winnie to have long-term strategies
0:43:04 > 0:43:08that are ten or 20 years and if you look at Scotland in terms of the
0:43:08 > 0:43:11violence reduction unit and public health model approach they have
0:43:11 > 0:43:15adopted that could be something that we could learn from nationally. --
0:43:15 > 0:43:19we need to have. That involves having long-term strategies that
0:43:19 > 0:43:24really do get to the cause in terms of young people and their life
0:43:24 > 0:43:27experiences.It's something we talked about on this programme,
0:43:27 > 0:43:31emulating some of the work done in Scotland. In terms of some of the
0:43:31 > 0:43:35voluntary agreements that have been put in place by the government,
0:43:35 > 0:43:38Theresa May mentioned with retailers, voluntary agreements
0:43:38 > 0:43:41aren't enough, they? There must be something tougher.Voluntary
0:43:41 > 0:43:47agreements can work and particularly as we said, in areas where there
0:43:47 > 0:43:50have been deaths, not least pressure brought by local residents who have
0:43:50 > 0:43:54said we expect the voluntary agreement to hold fire. Probably
0:43:54 > 0:43:57having... I don't want to jump in before the commission reports, part
0:43:57 > 0:44:02of the idea is to have a really good evidence -based...When is it due to
0:44:02 > 0:44:08report?Over the summer.It has been the last two or three years, we are
0:44:08 > 0:44:12getting evidence together and we hope we will be able to act on it.
0:44:12 > 0:44:14We will follow it then.
0:44:14 > 0:44:16Nine months on from the fire at Grenfell Tower, only 62
0:44:16 > 0:44:18of the 209 households in need of housing have moved
0:44:18 > 0:44:19into permanent homes.
0:44:19 > 0:44:22And now it seems the local economy is also facing a serious downturn.
0:44:22 > 0:44:26City Hall this week announced further funding to support local
0:44:26 > 0:44:28businesses, on top of support from the council.
0:44:28 > 0:44:30But will it be enough for the already deprived
0:44:30 > 0:44:32area to make a recovery?
0:44:32 > 0:44:34Tanjil Rashid reports, and I should warn you that there
0:44:34 > 0:44:38are some disturbing descriptions in the film.
0:44:38 > 0:44:40It's quiet in the vicinity of Grenfell Tower.
0:44:40 > 0:44:44Some of the shops are shuttered, others are for sale.
0:44:44 > 0:44:47People seem to be keeping away.
0:44:47 > 0:44:50After the fire last summer, there was a flurry of interest
0:44:50 > 0:44:53in housing issues locally but one thing that some say has been
0:44:53 > 0:44:56overlooked is the perspective of local businesses.
0:44:56 > 0:44:59Many of them, according to the Portobello Business Centre,
0:44:59 > 0:45:02are now on the brink of closure following a downturn of up to 70%
0:45:02 > 0:45:04in some cases.
0:45:04 > 0:45:06And adding to their difficulties, they say
0:45:06 > 0:45:09it is now proving virtually impossible to recruit staff to work
0:45:09 > 0:45:13here so close to Grenfell Tower.
0:45:13 > 0:45:16Narain Jagatiani has been fixing cars right by Grenfell Tower
0:45:16 > 0:45:19for more than 30 years.
0:45:19 > 0:45:23There was a flame of nearly 40, 50, 60 feet high.
0:45:23 > 0:45:25There was a smell, you know.
0:45:25 > 0:45:30The smell of bodies and the smell of plastic.
0:45:30 > 0:45:33But the business has struggled on in the face of the losses,
0:45:33 > 0:45:35not just the lives of his neighbours but also customers
0:45:35 > 0:45:39who have been keeping away.
0:45:39 > 0:45:41We lost, in the takings, £57,000 in the fire,
0:45:41 > 0:45:45in 12 weeks to 15 weeks.
0:45:45 > 0:45:47You've got to look at it from a different angle.
0:45:47 > 0:45:50You've got to look at it how you're going to go forward.
0:45:50 > 0:45:53This is something that's behind, and you've got to look forward.
0:45:53 > 0:45:56You can't dwell on the thing and say it's not going to work.
0:45:56 > 0:45:59As of this week, City Hall is providing a fund of more
0:45:59 > 0:46:01than £100,000 to support local businesses, on top of
0:46:01 > 0:46:05further grants and rates relief from the council.
0:46:05 > 0:46:09We've put together a package of over half a million pounds in order
0:46:09 > 0:46:13to give them - to support them and to get them back on their feet.
0:46:13 > 0:46:14Any council tenant who's obviously been effected,
0:46:14 > 0:46:17a lot of those in proximity to the fire, we gave them rent-free
0:46:17 > 0:46:20for the first eight months of the year
0:46:20 > 0:46:22with a transitional rent-free going on until September and the cost
0:46:22 > 0:46:28of that is about £200,000.
0:46:28 > 0:46:30We've also given them rates relief but importantly we are trying
0:46:30 > 0:46:32to give them support in their local area because clearly the local
0:46:32 > 0:46:35area has been affected by a large decant of people.
0:46:35 > 0:46:39It really isn't good enough, and in the same way as the council
0:46:39 > 0:46:42hasn't got to terms with its housing needs of the area,
0:46:42 > 0:46:44they haven't come to terms with the business needs either.
0:46:44 > 0:46:49I would say it's been slow and it's been grudging.
0:46:49 > 0:46:53Yes, they did give rates relief for businesses
0:46:53 > 0:46:56but in the immediate area, and I'm talking about the impact
0:46:56 > 0:47:01on a wider area, I see vacancies and empty offices,
0:47:01 > 0:47:06empty shops, empty business premises so you only need to look around
0:47:06 > 0:47:09the area to see the impact that it's had.
0:47:09 > 0:47:12The council say they do have an additional fund of £80,000
0:47:12 > 0:47:17precisely to support businesses affected in a wider area.
0:47:17 > 0:47:20For Shaun Bailey, a London Assembly member who grew up around here,
0:47:20 > 0:47:25local businesses provide vital opportunities to young people.
0:47:25 > 0:47:27I've worked up and down the Portobello Road.
0:47:27 > 0:47:30I used to work in a fantastic comic shop over there
0:47:30 > 0:47:31for years, it was great fun.
0:47:31 > 0:47:35But the real thing about local business is how much work it brings
0:47:35 > 0:47:37here and how much vibrancy it brings to the area.
0:47:37 > 0:47:39The suppression of business after the Grenfell disaster
0:47:39 > 0:47:41is definitely a challenge for local businesses, but one
0:47:41 > 0:47:49of the real ongoing challenges is the advent of change.
0:47:49 > 0:47:51of the real ongoing challenges is the advent of chains.
0:47:51 > 0:47:54If you run a small coffee shop around here, you now have to keep
0:47:54 > 0:47:56compete with Cafe Nero and Starbucks.
0:47:56 > 0:47:58The regeneration needs of the community are massive
0:47:58 > 0:48:01and how local business can help is by making sure it isn't
0:48:01 > 0:48:02an excuse for gentrification.
0:48:02 > 0:48:04People here want local businesses and housing as well that
0:48:04 > 0:48:06reflect their needs, not the needs of a community that's
0:48:06 > 0:48:07remote to this place.
0:48:07 > 0:48:10The challenge of regenerating north Kensington following the Grenfell
0:48:10 > 0:48:12tragedy will have to contend with forces larger and longer
0:48:12 > 0:48:20lasting than the fire itself.
0:48:21 > 0:48:25It is clear the impact of the fire will be felt for a very long time,
0:48:25 > 0:48:29but looking at businesses in the area, because there has been a focus
0:48:29 > 0:48:33on housing, how is it important to you to keep businesses from closing,
0:48:33 > 0:48:37and some say they are on the brink of closure.I think it is critical,
0:48:37 > 0:48:42and a bit unfair to say it has been grudging, the actions of Kensington
0:48:42 > 0:48:49and Chelsea. I accept this is a huge task for any local authority. Where
0:48:49 > 0:48:54I think Shaun Bailey got it right in his comments is the worst thing
0:48:54 > 0:49:01would be for this to be used as an excuse for further gentrification.
0:49:01 > 0:49:05There's a broader issue about small business rates that we have seen
0:49:05 > 0:49:09within London as a whole...But should there be special exemptions
0:49:09 > 0:49:13given on a continuing basis?One of the difficulties is you do want to
0:49:13 > 0:49:17get back to some sort of normalcy before too long so I don't beg you
0:49:17 > 0:49:23want to have essentially businesses that will be unviable being kept
0:49:23 > 0:49:28going year upon year.But would you like a bit of an extension?Yes, we
0:49:28 > 0:49:31all realise that the comedy and magnitude of what happened at
0:49:31 > 0:49:40Grenfell Tower, and many times your viewers travel up and down the A40
0:49:40 > 0:49:45and see the tower still there, a lot of work needs to be done. But there
0:49:45 > 0:49:50has been progress, on small business rates. I have campaigned in places
0:49:50 > 0:49:59like Westminster where we now have 257 businesses...
0:49:59 > 0:50:01257 businesses... The city of Westminster is literally half a mile
0:50:01 > 0:50:06away from the boundary.We heard testimony about how important local
0:50:06 > 0:50:09business is because it will help with the regeneration and provides
0:50:09 > 0:50:16jobs. Is there more City Hall and the mayor Sadiq Khan could be doing
0:50:16 > 0:50:18specifically to help local businesses?I think one of the
0:50:18 > 0:50:21things that needs to happen is people need to be having the
0:50:21 > 0:50:24conversations with the local businesses to find out what it is
0:50:24 > 0:50:29may need to be able to survive. I was talking to somebody who said
0:50:29 > 0:50:34they didn't really feel those conversations and dialogue had taken
0:50:34 > 0:50:38place. Sometimes in terms of politics, politicians can put the
0:50:38 > 0:50:43finger in the air about what should happen but having conversations with
0:50:43 > 0:50:49local businesses...Shouldn't they be more proactive at City Hall then?
0:50:49 > 0:50:53People are asking for further exemptions and extensions on things
0:50:53 > 0:50:58like rates coming back now to the area and more money so what more
0:50:58 > 0:51:04needs to be said? Why doesn't City Hall react?City Hall have already
0:51:04 > 0:51:08given a lot of support, I'm not saying it's necessarily enough but
0:51:08 > 0:51:13it is not one of the poorest councils. They need to be investing
0:51:13 > 0:51:18more in terms of supporting local businesses.What about that compared
0:51:18 > 0:51:22to housing, because the focus has been on housing, rightly so, and a
0:51:22 > 0:51:27lot of people are still not in permanent accommodation. Do you see
0:51:27 > 0:51:32that as the priority?Of course day-to-day it is a priority but you
0:51:32 > 0:51:37need to develop a community and you are not going to get a community
0:51:37 > 0:51:40that is restored and proud for the future unless you get business
0:51:40 > 0:51:49right. £300 million has been given in small business rates relief. In
0:51:49 > 0:51:52Kensington and Chelsea will be a similar amount of money. I would say
0:51:52 > 0:51:56to everyone living nearby, please use your local businesses, go to the
0:51:56 > 0:52:01local cafe, go to the local newsagents instead of Tesco or
0:52:01 > 0:52:05Waitrose to buy your paper on a Sunday morning. Use the local
0:52:05 > 0:52:10services as far as you can because otherwise they will die off.How
0:52:10 > 0:52:16would you stimulate the local economy?When you were talking about
0:52:16 > 0:52:20housing, there is concern over the inaccuracy of the figures, this week
0:52:20 > 0:52:27Sajid Javid said there are only 25 houses, they haven't been placed in
0:52:27 > 0:52:35housing, and the figure you show -- quoted earlier is entirely different
0:52:35 > 0:52:38so we need to be transparent and make sure the people are rehoused as
0:52:38 > 0:52:42soon as possible and in housing they are happy with as well.Those
0:52:42 > 0:52:47figures, fewer than half have been rehoused in permanent accommodation,
0:52:47 > 0:52:52it's not good enough, is it?I think Vicky touched on something that a
0:52:52 > 0:52:58lot of people are holding back, in temporary accommodation and want to
0:52:58 > 0:53:04return to the flat they were before, but your point is right, that you
0:53:04 > 0:53:10alluded to the least, that actually not that we ignore the housing but
0:53:10 > 0:53:15let's get the community working again and not just have the focus
0:53:15 > 0:53:18only on the housing, let's get small business is thriving in that area
0:53:18 > 0:53:19again.Time to move on.
0:53:19 > 0:53:22A damning report into Harmondsworth detention centre, which holds
0:53:22 > 0:53:24migrants deemed to be in the country illegally, has highlighted
0:53:24 > 0:53:26serious concerns over the treatment of its residents,
0:53:26 > 0:53:28with evidence of prolonged detentions and poor management.
0:53:28 > 0:53:31Jerry Thomas has more.
0:53:31 > 0:53:32Harmondsworth Immigration Removal Centre, the largest
0:53:32 > 0:53:35of its kind in Europe.
0:53:35 > 0:53:38This week a report by Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Prisons
0:53:38 > 0:53:40into the privately-run centre has prompted concern to the wellbeing
0:53:40 > 0:53:48of its estimated 555 male detainees.
0:53:50 > 0:53:52A series of damning observations include filthy prison-like
0:53:52 > 0:53:54conditions, some detainees held for excessively long periods,
0:53:54 > 0:53:5823 men had been detained for over a year, and one man had been held
0:53:58 > 0:53:59for over four and a half years.
0:53:59 > 0:54:01Inadequate safeguarding of detainees, and excessive use
0:54:01 > 0:54:07of handcuffing, especially for outside appointments.
0:54:07 > 0:54:10I think the report on Harmondsworth was shameful, it revealed
0:54:10 > 0:54:13shameful conditions.
0:54:13 > 0:54:16People held for years and years, over four and a half years in one
0:54:16 > 0:54:20case, very poor medical conditions, rat infested.
0:54:20 > 0:54:23Those conditions are a disgrace.
0:54:23 > 0:54:26These conditions reveal that we have a broken
0:54:26 > 0:54:30immigration detention system.
0:54:30 > 0:54:32A Home Office spokesperson said...
0:54:55 > 0:54:57I'm joined by Martha Spurrier, Director of the Human Rights
0:54:57 > 0:55:04campaign group Liberty.
0:55:04 > 0:55:08Welcome to the programme. Would you like to see a time limit on the
0:55:08 > 0:55:12length of detention?Yes, we are urging the Government to put a 28
0:55:12 > 0:55:17day time limit under tension. Currently the UK is the only country
0:55:17 > 0:55:22in Europe that doesn't put a time limit on detention. The Government
0:55:22 > 0:55:25is detaining tens of thousands of people every year, that includes
0:55:25 > 0:55:30survivors of trafficking, torture and rape, asylum seekers, and the
0:55:30 > 0:55:34brutality of the detention estate is extraordinary.What time limit is
0:55:34 > 0:55:39the average in other European countries?It ranges from 28 days up
0:55:39 > 0:55:47to about a year but having a definite -- indefinite detention
0:55:47 > 0:55:53makes us an outlier?Would you support that?Often the whole thing
0:55:53 > 0:55:59can jog on, and I think would not be acceptable is to have a short
0:55:59 > 0:56:04maximum period and then people being allowed to leave and probably going
0:56:04 > 0:56:08to ground.But what about a specific time limit that was somewhere
0:56:08 > 0:56:15between, let's say six months?I agree with that. The Home Office
0:56:15 > 0:56:18have omitted a lot of it makes uncomfortable reading, they will
0:56:18 > 0:56:23have to have a look, and I'm not in anyway disagreeing with some of the
0:56:23 > 0:56:25dangerous conclusions that have come up in this report. However it
0:56:25 > 0:56:33strikes me that we have a system that allows indeterminate delays. We
0:56:33 > 0:56:37want a quick, fair and just system but we need to get people
0:56:37 > 0:56:41essentially having a determination of their position at the earliest
0:56:41 > 0:56:44possible opportunity, not allowing the thing to drag on with constant
0:56:44 > 0:56:47appeals and this is of course why you have this dreadful situation of
0:56:47 > 0:56:52one man being in there for four and a half years. Presumably that's an
0:56:52 > 0:56:58ongoing legal process which is not good for him nor the rest of us, who
0:56:58 > 0:57:01want to have a system we can be proud of and feel is fair and just
0:57:01 > 0:57:06but we need to get it sorted out. Martha, is it practical to put a
0:57:06 > 0:57:15time
0:57:16 > 0:57:18time limit on it at the moment, while the legal system is such that
0:57:18 > 0:57:20asylum seekers or people claiming asylum can appeal decisions and that
0:57:20 > 0:57:23means they are held in these detention centres for possibly
0:57:23 > 0:57:25months, even years?It is absolutely practical to have a time limit, as
0:57:25 > 0:57:28we can see in other countries in Europe. The majority of people who
0:57:28 > 0:57:32go into detention are released into the community and don't go
0:57:32 > 0:57:39underground. 95% of migrants in the community report to immigration
0:57:39 > 0:57:43officers so they are kept track of. There is this bogeyman idea of a
0:57:43 > 0:57:47flood of people who will go underground, it just isn't a reality
0:57:47 > 0:57:51and the human cost of detention is so great, and the fact we have no
0:57:51 > 0:57:56time limit means the Home Office allows these cases to drag on and
0:57:56 > 0:57:59people's lives are destroyed.But you do accept these detention
0:57:59 > 0:58:03centres are there because people have been overstaying their welcome
0:58:03 > 0:58:08or they are here illegally and need to be detained?This isn't about
0:58:08 > 0:58:13whether people
0:58:15 > 0:58:18whether people should be here or be deported...That is part of the
0:58:18 > 0:58:20immigration system, isn't it?It is different from the question of
0:58:20 > 0:58:22whether they should be detained. Let's have a fair and just system to
0:58:22 > 0:58:28remove them, or if they can stay let them have their due process but
0:58:28 > 0:58:30infringing their rights to liberty, destroying physical and mental
0:58:30 > 0:58:36health in the process is not necessary, effective or just.What
0:58:36 > 0:58:42does Labour want to see happen to detention centres?I think detention
0:58:42 > 0:58:49centres in the way that they are at the moment, saying they are worse
0:58:49 > 0:58:56than prisons, people should not be detained in such an inhumane way.So
0:58:56 > 0:59:01what would you do to these people? We wouldn't have indefinite
0:59:01 > 0:59:06detention, we would have a time limit on that. We think it is
0:59:06 > 0:59:09extremely important, and terms of the problems with the legal system
0:59:09 > 0:59:14we need to speed it up and get it right.But would you would still
0:59:14 > 0:59:18keep these detention centres and hold people in this way?As much as
0:59:18 > 0:59:22possible we wouldn't be putting people in detention centres, you
0:59:22 > 0:59:27need to deal the immigration system in a tighter and quicker fashion.We
0:59:27 > 0:59:30have discussed the legal difficulties but is it really right
0:59:30 > 0:59:35morally to hold people in the sort of rat infested conditions that have
0:59:35 > 0:59:47been described? Vicky says it is worse than prison. Is it defendable?
0:59:47 > 0:59:50Harmondsworth is clearly an exception, but the reality is we
0:59:50 > 0:59:54have hundreds of thousands of people who have gone to ground, many of
0:59:54 > 0:59:59whom are playing a full role in the community but actually cannot work
0:59:59 > 1:00:02other than on the black economy because they are unofficial
1:00:02 > 1:00:07individuals, then every so often the demand comes up, we must have an
1:00:07 > 1:00:10amnesty for the hundreds of thousands who have overstayed. If
1:00:10 > 1:00:14you don't have a fair system, it's not right for those who come here
1:00:14 > 1:00:19legally and do play the system by the rules if you are allowing others
1:00:19 > 1:00:23to stay on an unfair basis and part of the difficulty is you have a
1:00:23 > 1:00:27legal system that allows this whole thing to drag on.Martha, pick up on
1:00:27 > 1:00:31the point about the fact there would be many people who would go
1:00:31 > 1:00:36underground
1:00:36 > 1:00:38underground or who are already underground and difficult to detect.
1:00:38 > 1:00:41It is just not the evidence of what's happening now. You describe
1:00:41 > 1:00:45the idea of Harmondsworth being an exception, that's not the case.
1:00:45 > 1:00:53There was a panorama programme about this, about denial of medical
1:00:53 > 1:00:57treatment and unlawful use of restraints, it is rife in the
1:00:57 > 1:01:01centres. The consensus is building that time limit is the humane and
1:01:01 > 1:01:05civilised thing to do. We've had faith leaders, doctors and
1:01:05 > 1:01:09lawyers...We need to do this in tandem with a time limit on the
1:01:09 > 1:01:16legal process as well.This is now the consensus.We will have to leave
1:01:16 > 1:01:24it there, back to Sarah.
1:01:25 > 1:01:28it there, back to Sarah. Welcome back.
1:01:28 > 1:01:32A row has erupted in the influential Brexit Select Committee of MPs.
1:01:32 > 1:01:34The majority of pro-Remain MPs on the committee, led
1:01:34 > 1:01:36by the Labour Chairman Hilary Benn, have backed a report saying
1:01:36 > 1:01:39that the Article 50 process may need to be extended,
1:01:39 > 1:01:41so that Brexit would happen later than March 2019.
1:01:41 > 1:01:44But that infuriated the minority of pro-Brexit MPs on the committee,
1:01:44 > 1:01:46who have published their own report, which says that delaying
1:01:46 > 1:01:48Brexit would not respect the referendum result.
1:01:48 > 1:01:50One of those pro-Brexit MPs on the committee, Jacob Rees-Mogg,
1:01:50 > 1:01:52said: "The majority report is the prospectus
1:01:52 > 1:01:53for the vassal state.
1:01:53 > 1:01:57It is a future not worthy of us as a country, and I am sure that
1:01:57 > 1:01:59Theresa May will rightly reject a report by the high
1:01:59 > 1:02:06priests of Remain."
1:02:06 > 1:02:10The majority report is an attempt to keep us in the EU
1:02:10 > 1:02:10by sleight of hand."
1:02:10 > 1:02:13The Committee Chairman is Labour MP Hilary Benn and he joins me now.
1:02:13 > 1:02:17Have you been called a high priest before?Many things but never a high
1:02:17 > 1:02:22priest. He says you are trying to delay Brexit possibly indefinitely
1:02:22 > 1:02:26because you are a passionate Remainer. That's not the case, not
1:02:26 > 1:02:29about undermining the referendum result, is about the problem we
1:02:29 > 1:02:33face, there are seven months to go until the Article 50 negotiations
1:02:33 > 1:02:36are due to end. There is a whole host of issues that have not yet
1:02:36 > 1:02:40been addressed. We haven't started negotiating our future economic
1:02:40 > 1:02:44relationship, what will happen to trade, services, 80% of the British
1:02:44 > 1:02:48economy's services, how will we work together on defence, foreign policy
1:02:48 > 1:02:57and security, really important in the wake of the Salisbury attack,
1:02:57 > 1:02:59cooperating on aviation safety, food safety, medicines, research, and the
1:02:59 > 1:03:01question of how to keep an open border between Northern Ireland and
1:03:01 > 1:03:04the Republic.Aren't you setting up false deadline by saying this must
1:03:04 > 1:03:07be set out by October?We didn't set the deadline, Michel Barnier said
1:03:07 > 1:03:10the deadline of the sort of the negotiating process because he
1:03:10 > 1:03:18pointed out when the deal is agreed it must be ratified by the European
1:03:19 > 1:03:23-- European Council. If there are a whole load of things that have not
1:03:23 > 1:03:25yet been negotiated the government could ask for an extension to the
1:03:25 > 1:03:29Article 50 process and one of the things that we say is when David
1:03:29 > 1:03:33Davis came to give evidence to us, he said we don't want to be
1:03:33 > 1:03:36negotiating really important issues in the transition period because the
1:03:36 > 1:03:40balance of power changes. What we are seeing is the best way to get
1:03:40 > 1:03:43the best deal for the British people is to do so when you have the
1:03:43 > 1:03:47maximum negotiating clout and that is during the Article 50 period.
1:03:47 > 1:03:52Without a hard deadline of the two years since triggering Article 50,
1:03:52 > 1:03:56the EU could just delay and delay and delay this to the point that it
1:03:56 > 1:04:01is a never-ending process that sees as not leaving the EU.The body
1:04:01 > 1:04:04wants a never-ending process.Might be some in the EU who wouldn't mind,
1:04:04 > 1:04:08they would prefer it to a full Brexit.They might but the
1:04:08 > 1:04:12referendum decision has been made. We have seen another example this
1:04:12 > 1:04:15week, Chris Grayling, the Transport Secretary, said we would not be able
1:04:15 > 1:04:21to put checks on goods coming in to Dover. Knows that the customs
1:04:21 > 1:04:24relations are not ready so these are serious issues that face the
1:04:24 > 1:04:31country. Or the businesses I speak to so we understand how it works
1:04:31 > 1:04:35today and can you tell us how it will work tomorrow when we have left
1:04:35 > 1:04:37and the answer is we don't know because we haven't negotiated it. It
1:04:37 > 1:04:42is about taking a sufficient time to get a decent deal. Everybody knows
1:04:42 > 1:04:45that the detailed negotiation is going to take place during the
1:04:45 > 1:04:48transition period because you are not going to sort all of this out
1:04:48 > 1:04:51between now and October. Would you need to impose another hard deadline
1:04:51 > 1:04:59in order to keep minds focused.Not allow the balance of power to shift
1:04:59 > 1:05:02to those in the EU who could delay and delay if this is an open-ended
1:05:02 > 1:05:05process?You certainly could do that and this would only happen if the
1:05:05 > 1:05:08government were to ask for it. It would be the agreement of all of the
1:05:08 > 1:05:12other EU 27. Of all of the other member states. But it is about
1:05:12 > 1:05:15having flexibility, remember the row when the government put a hard
1:05:15 > 1:05:20deadline of 11 o'clock on the 29th of March? Lots of people including
1:05:20 > 1:05:23Conservative said this is not sensible. When you are engaged in a
1:05:23 > 1:05:26negotiation that is as complex and challenging as this, to set an
1:05:26 > 1:05:30absolutely hard deadline doesn't help you get the right outcome for
1:05:30 > 1:05:33the British people.There is another accusation from the people on your
1:05:33 > 1:05:40committee who don't agree with your conclusions who published
1:05:41 > 1:05:42conclusions who published this minority report, which is that you
1:05:42 > 1:05:44are trying to keep Britain in the Single Market and customs union by
1:05:44 > 1:05:47the back door using the Irish border issue to do that. It would be your
1:05:47 > 1:05:50preferred outcome that we stayed in this customs union and Single
1:05:50 > 1:05:57Market.It is my preferred point, position but they have not reached a
1:05:57 > 1:06:00decision in the review. The government set a high bar on the
1:06:00 > 1:06:04Irish border, it wants no checks and no infrastructure, and I agree. As
1:06:04 > 1:06:07things stand at the moment, because the government hasn't come forward
1:06:07 > 1:06:11with a proposal as to how to deliver that in practice, we don't see how
1:06:11 > 1:06:15you can reconcile that objective with the Government's commitment to
1:06:15 > 1:06:18leave the Single Market and customs union. This will come back again and
1:06:18 > 1:06:22again in the negotiations until it is resolved. My own personal view is
1:06:22 > 1:06:25staying in a customs union would provide part of the answer to
1:06:25 > 1:06:30keeping that border open, which is what everyone says they want.It is
1:06:30 > 1:06:33a pretty rotten state of affairs when your Select Committee produces
1:06:33 > 1:06:36majority and minority report and you are clearly absolutely split on the
1:06:36 > 1:06:41principles of this.It is not unprecedented but I wish we were
1:06:41 > 1:06:45able to reach agreement. You know what, the referendum showed the
1:06:45 > 1:06:48nation was divided down the middle, the Cabinet is divided, there are
1:06:48 > 1:06:51different views in Parliament, it's not entirely surprising that we find
1:06:51 > 1:06:55that reflected in the Select Committee I have the honour to be
1:06:55 > 1:06:58the chair of.Thank you, we will pick up some Brexit issues and some
1:06:58 > 1:07:03more of what will be happening with Brexit this week with the panel.
1:07:03 > 1:07:06Isabel Oakeshott, Hilary Benn has a point, doesn't he, that his
1:07:06 > 1:07:10committee is no war split and, frankly, the Cabinet, the country or
1:07:10 > 1:07:15both political parties are on this matter?I think that is a fair point
1:07:15 > 1:07:17but on the substantive recommendation about delaying Brexit
1:07:17 > 1:07:21further, I cannot see how that could possibly strengthen our position to
1:07:21 > 1:07:27have us begging for more time here. I think the one thing that I am sure
1:07:27 > 1:07:31you here, Hilary Benn, when you are on the doorstep is why can't they
1:07:31 > 1:07:34get on with this? People don't want this process to be any more
1:07:34 > 1:07:39elongated. If anything it just increases uncertainty for business.
1:07:39 > 1:07:45Hillary.Somebody summed this up beautifully to me the other day, for
1:07:45 > 1:07:48something that is apparently so simple, it's really, really
1:07:48 > 1:07:53complicated, isn't it? Over 45 years we have built this network of
1:07:53 > 1:07:57relationships, laws, the ways businesses operate. I was at a
1:07:57 > 1:07:59conference of the creative industries on Thursday and they are
1:07:59 > 1:08:02concerned about intellectual property and broadcasting into
1:08:02 > 1:08:08Europe, and the ability of musicians to go on to travel. All sorts of
1:08:08 > 1:08:10questions people have got from a perfectly legitimate ones, about how
1:08:10 > 1:08:13it is going to work and is not entirely surprising, whatever the
1:08:13 > 1:08:16frustration people feel, and I recognise that, it will take time to
1:08:16 > 1:08:20sort it out in a way that works for us. It's not about working for
1:08:20 > 1:08:24Europe, we want a deal that we can both agree on, but it's got to work
1:08:24 > 1:08:30for us and look after our interests, that's our job.Lucy, David Davis is
1:08:30 > 1:08:33on his way back to Brussels for more negotiations trying to sign off with
1:08:33 > 1:08:40Michel Barnier the transition period of the deal there. What is the issue
1:08:40 > 1:08:43that must be decided before the Summit of EU leaders at the end of
1:08:43 > 1:08:46the week?The main stumbling block is the Irish border question which
1:08:46 > 1:08:51Hillary pointed out. Labour has a position which goes some way to
1:08:51 > 1:08:55solving the issue, which is to remain in the customs union.A
1:08:55 > 1:09:00customs union.A customs union, forgive me. It is hard to see how
1:09:00 > 1:09:03that will be established in any kind of technical, substantive way. We
1:09:03 > 1:09:07will have to rely on good to stumble past that at this stage. My
1:09:07 > 1:09:11understanding is there are UK fears that Dublin may receive backing from
1:09:11 > 1:09:15the Germans and French this week that will cause more problems on
1:09:15 > 1:09:19that but it is essential that the transition deal is formally agreed
1:09:19 > 1:09:23at the European Council this week for two reasons. Firstly, we need to
1:09:23 > 1:09:27move the talks on to the trade agreement, we want to reach. And
1:09:27 > 1:09:30secondly, it is vital for business to have the certainty of what the
1:09:30 > 1:09:36situation will be regarding the UK's relationship with the EU up to
1:09:36 > 1:09:40September 2020. This is the last moment UK businesses have said the
1:09:40 > 1:09:45government can wait to give firm signals on it before they revert to
1:09:45 > 1:09:49contingency plans.Hillary talks up negotiating leverage and we gave our
1:09:49 > 1:09:53leveraged away when we invoked Article 50 without pre-negotiations,
1:09:53 > 1:09:58because we put the clock on ourselves. With and have two years
1:09:58 > 1:10:01to negotiate everything and Michel Barnier set the date and we have two
1:10:01 > 1:10:05then go to him to potentially beg for more time and I think we have
1:10:05 > 1:10:10really put ourselves in a difficult position by doing that.Given that
1:10:10 > 1:10:14situation, would it be better to go, in your words, begging for more
1:10:14 > 1:10:17time, or stick to their deadline so that people's mines are concentrated
1:10:17 > 1:10:21on getting the deal done?I think the deadline, the date we are
1:10:21 > 1:10:24supposed to be leaving, was set by the government in the withdrawal
1:10:24 > 1:10:29bill for political reasons. I think that was all performative really. I
1:10:29 > 1:10:34don't think there is is Dummigan reason why there cannot be flexible
1:10:34 > 1:10:38to. If we can negotiate a transition deal in the short term, there is no
1:10:38 > 1:10:43reason why we can't, as Hilary said, I now the details in the transition
1:10:43 > 1:10:46period.What other sticking points on the withdrawal agreement? It
1:10:46 > 1:10:49seems David Davis is saying this week he is relaxed about a
1:10:49 > 1:10:56transition period not lusting for a full two years, only up until
1:10:56 > 1:11:01Christmas 2021. It feels a little bit -- not lusting for a full two
1:11:01 > 1:11:05years. When we get it is crunch decisions with the withdrawal
1:11:05 > 1:11:08agreement and the negotiation and transition agreement, that the UK
1:11:08 > 1:11:12caves at the last minute. Where can we see a win for the UK in these
1:11:12 > 1:11:16deadlines?Every time we get abuse crunch decisions elements in
1:11:16 > 1:11:20Parliament try and cause us to cave. That is a difficulty government has.
1:11:20 > 1:11:24It has been undermined by its own backbenchers, we have the Brexit
1:11:24 > 1:11:28committee coming up with divided reports suggesting more delay. I
1:11:28 > 1:11:31think there will be massive push back on that. I don't think it will
1:11:31 > 1:11:36happen. There is no way any extension of this time period is
1:11:36 > 1:11:40acceptable to Theresa May's Brexiteer MPs to whom she is in
1:11:40 > 1:11:44hock, so that can't happen. The problem is, Matt, it is just going
1:11:44 > 1:11:48to expand to fill the time available. We need these deadlines,
1:11:48 > 1:11:52uncomfortable as they may be, and in an ideal world we might have a few
1:11:52 > 1:11:56extra days here or there to fine tune things, but ultimately nobody
1:11:56 > 1:12:00on your side of the argument is going to be happy with the time
1:12:00 > 1:12:03frame. It will simply expand and expand and expand until the de facto
1:12:03 > 1:12:07we just stay in the.Lucy, is there any prospect, given where we are at
1:12:07 > 1:12:12the moment waiting to sign off a deal on the transition, that we can
1:12:12 > 1:12:17have a fully comprehensive trade agreement in place by October to go
1:12:17 > 1:12:20for ratification to the European Parliament?I think it's looking
1:12:20 > 1:12:23increasingly unlikely and there is lots of things that will not be
1:12:23 > 1:12:27ready in time, today there are reports the Cabinet have been
1:12:27 > 1:12:31briefed on the fact that Customs and border arrangements are not going to
1:12:31 > 1:12:36be in place by Brexit day next March. There is still a lot of
1:12:36 > 1:12:40questions around that. Going back to the question of the polarisation in
1:12:40 > 1:12:43Parliament, in the Cabinet, in the country over Brexit and some of the
1:12:43 > 1:12:47positions government has put forward so far, there are still so many
1:12:47 > 1:12:50questions left unanswered. Theresa May hasn't really filled in any
1:12:50 > 1:12:54detail about what you would like to see with trade and customs and huge
1:12:54 > 1:12:57question marks over how the government envisages immigration
1:12:57 > 1:13:01working at the Brexit. A lot more needs to be done to fill in more
1:13:01 > 1:13:05detail.Thank you to all of my guests, Lucy Fisher, Isabel
1:13:05 > 1:13:08Oakeshott, Matt Zarb-Cousin is an Hilary Benn are still on the set.
1:13:08 > 1:13:09That's all for today.
1:13:09 > 1:13:12Join me again next Sunday at 11am here on BBC One.
1:13:12 > 1:13:15Until then, bye-bye.