:00:38. > :00:47.Good morning, welcome. 2014 is barely under way, and the
:00:48. > :00:51.coalition is fighting over cuts Nick Legg says Tory plans to balance
:00:52. > :00:55.the books would hit the poorest hardest. He will not say what he
:00:56. > :00:59.will cut. That is the top story Chris Grayling called for a
:01:00. > :01:04.completely new deal with Europe as he battles will rings from the
:01:05. > :01:09.European Court of Human Rights. He joins me.
:01:10. > :01:10.Labour promises to shift house-building up a gear, but how
:01:11. > :01:12.will they Labour promises to shift
:01:13. > :01:16.house`building up a gear but how will they get 1 million new homes
:01:17. > :01:21.built by 2020. We hear from the Shadow Housing Minister. In the
:01:22. > :01:24.North East and Cumbria, why tax is going up despite government
:01:25. > :01:33.be serious. Have cuts left to the service being overstretched?
:01:34. > :01:41.With me for the duration, a top trio of political pundits, Helen Lewis,
:01:42. > :01:49.Jan and Ganesh and Nick Watt. They will be tweeting faster than France
:01:50. > :01:53.or long scoots through Paris. Nick Clegg sticks to his New Year
:01:54. > :01:57.resolution to sock it to the Tories, the is how he described Tory plans
:01:58. > :02:01.for another 12 billion of cuts on welfare after the next election
:02:02. > :02:06.You cannot say, as the Conservatives are, that we are all in it together
:02:07. > :02:08.and then say that the welfare will not make any additional
:02:09. > :02:13.contributions from their taxes if there is a Conservative government
:02:14. > :02:19.after 2015 in the ongoing effort to balance the books. We are not even
:02:20. > :02:26.going to ask that very wealthy people who have retired who have
:02:27. > :02:29.benefits, paid for by the hard-pressed taxpayers, will make a
:02:30. > :02:35.sacrifice. The Conservatives appear to be saying only the working age
:02:36. > :02:38.pork will be asked to make additional sacrifices to fill the
:02:39. > :02:43.remaining buckle in the public finances.
:02:44. > :02:49.Nick Legg eating up on the Tories a, happens almost every day. I
:02:50. > :02:55.understand it is called aggressive differentiation. Will it work for
:02:56. > :03:00.them? It has not for the past two years. This began around the time of
:03:01. > :03:05.the AV referendum campaign, that is what poisoned the relations between
:03:06. > :03:11.the parties. They have been trying to differentiation since then, they
:03:12. > :03:17.are still at barely 10% in the polls, Nick Clegg's personal ratings
:03:18. > :03:22.are horrendous, so I doubt they will do much before the next election. It
:03:23. > :03:26.is interesting it has been combined with aggressive flirtation with Ed
:03:27. > :03:30.Balls and the Labour Party. There was always going to be some sort of
:03:31. > :03:36.rapprochement between them and the Labour Party, it is in the Labour
:03:37. > :03:39.Party's interests, and it is intent macro's interests, not to be defined
:03:40. > :03:45.as somebody who can only do deals with the centre-right. A colleague
:03:46. > :03:48.of yours, Helen, told me there was more talk behind closed doors in the
:03:49. > :03:55.Labour Party high command, they have to think about winning the election
:03:56. > :03:59.in terms of being the largest party, but not necessarily an overall
:04:00. > :04:02.majority. There is a feeling it was foolish before the last election not
:04:03. > :04:07.to have any thought about what a coalition might be, but the language
:04:08. > :04:11.has changed. Ed Miliband had said, I cannot deal with this man, but now,
:04:12. > :04:18.I have to be prismatic, it is about principles. Even Ed Balls. Nick
:04:19. > :04:23.Clegg had specifically said that Ed Balls was the man in politics that
:04:24. > :04:29.he hated. He said that was just a joke. Of course, it is about
:04:30. > :04:33.principles, not people! When Ed Balls said those nice things about
:04:34. > :04:37.Nick Clegg, he said, I understood the need to get a credible deficit
:04:38. > :04:43.reduction programme, although he said Nick Clegg went too far. The
:04:44. > :04:46.thing about Nick Clegg, he feels liberated, he bears the wounds from
:04:47. > :04:52.the early days of the coalition and maybe those winds will haunt him all
:04:53. > :04:58.the way to the general election But he feels liberated, he says, we will
:04:59. > :05:01.be the restraining influence on both the Conservatives, who cannot insure
:05:02. > :05:05.that the recovery is fair, and the Labour Party, that do not have
:05:06. > :05:09.economic red ability. He feels relaxed, and that is why he is
:05:10. > :05:18.attacking the Tories and appearing pretty relaxed. He could also be
:05:19. > :05:21.falling into a trap. The Tories think what they suggesting on
:05:22. > :05:26.welfare cuts is possible. The more he attacks it, the more Tories will
:05:27. > :05:31.say, if you gave us an overall majority, he is the one it. He keeps
:05:32. > :05:35.taking these ostensibly on popular positions and it only makes sense
:05:36. > :05:40.when you talk to them behind the scenes, they are going after a tiny
:05:41. > :05:46.slice of the electorate, 20%, who are open to the idea of voting Lib
:05:47. > :05:53.Dem, and their views are a bit more left liberal than the bulk of the
:05:54. > :05:59.public. There is a perverse logic in them aggressively targeting that
:06:00. > :06:03.section of voters. In the end, ten macro's problem, if you do not like
:06:04. > :06:08.what this coalition has been doing, you will not vote for somebody who
:06:09. > :06:16.was part of it, you will vote for the Labour Party. The Tories are too
:06:17. > :06:19.nasty, Labour are to spendthrift, Lib Dem, a quarter of their vote has
:06:20. > :06:25.gone to Labour, and that is what could hand the largest party to
:06:26. > :06:29.Labour. That small number of voters, soft Tory voters, the problem for
:06:30. > :06:34.the Liberal Democrats is, if you fight, as they did, three general
:06:35. > :06:38.elections to the left of the Labour Party, and at the end of the third,
:06:39. > :06:43.you find yourself in Colour Vision with the Conservatives, you have a
:06:44. > :06:50.problem. Chris Grayling is a busy man, he has
:06:51. > :06:54.had to deal with aid riot at HM Prison Oakwood, barristers on strike
:06:55. > :07:05.and unhappy probation officers taking industrial action.
:07:06. > :07:15.Prison works. It ensures that we are protected from murderers, muggers
:07:16. > :07:24.and rapists. It makes many who are tempted to commit crime think twice.
:07:25. > :07:28.Traditional Tory policy on criminal justice and prisons has been tough
:07:29. > :07:33.talking and tough dealing. Not only have they tended to think what they
:07:34. > :07:37.are offering is right, but have had the feeling, you thinking what they
:07:38. > :07:44.thinking. But nearly two decades after Michael Howard's message, his
:07:45. > :07:47.party, in Colour Vision government, is finding prison has to work like
:07:48. > :07:52.everything else within today's financial realities. The Justice
:07:53. > :07:57.Secretary for two years after the election had previous in this field.
:07:58. > :08:04.Ken Clarke. Early on, he signalled a change of direction. Just binding up
:08:05. > :08:08.more and more people for longer without actively seeking to change
:08:09. > :08:17.them is, in my opinion, what you would expect of Victorian England.
:08:18. > :08:24.The key to keeping people out of prison now, it seems, is giving them
:08:25. > :08:28.in a job, on release. Ironically, Ken Clarke was released from his job
:08:29. > :08:36.15 months ago and replaced by Chris Grayling. But here, within HM Prison
:08:37. > :08:38.Liverpool, Timpson has been working since 2009 with chosen offenders to
:08:39. > :08:43.offer training and the chance of a job. Before you ask, they do not
:08:44. > :08:47.teach them keep cutting in a category B prison. The Academy is
:08:48. > :08:53.deliberately meant to look like a company store, not a prison. It
:08:54. > :08:57.helps. You forget where you are at times, it feels weird, going back to
:08:58. > :09:06.a wing at the end of the day. It is different. A different atmosphere.
:09:07. > :09:09.That is why people like it. Timpson have six academies in prisons,
:09:10. > :09:13.training prisoners inside, and outside they offer jobs to
:09:14. > :09:17.ex-offenders, who make up 8% of their staff. It has been hard work
:09:18. > :09:24.persuading some governors that such cooperation can work. I have seen a
:09:25. > :09:28.dramatic change positively, working with prisoners, particularly in the
:09:29. > :09:35.last five years. They understand now what business's expectation is.
:09:36. > :09:40.Timpson do not just employ offenders, but as one ex-prisoner
:09:41. > :09:44.released in February and now managing his own store says, the
:09:45. > :09:50.point is many others will not employ offenders at all. From what I have
:09:51. > :09:55.experienced, on one hand, you have somebody with a criminal conviction,
:09:56. > :09:57.on the other, somebody who does not have one, so it is a case of
:09:58. > :10:02.favouring those who have a clean record. Anybody with a criminal
:10:03. > :10:08.conviction is passed to one side and overlooked. That, amongst myriad
:10:09. > :10:13.other changes to prison and how we deal with prisoners, is on the desk
:10:14. > :10:17.of the man at the top. Ever since Chris Grayling became Secretary of
:10:18. > :10:21.State for Justice, he has wanted to signal a change of direction of
:10:22. > :10:25.policy, and he is in a hurry to make radical reforms across the board,
:10:26. > :10:29.from size and types of prisons to probation services, reoffending
:10:30. > :10:33.rates, legal aid services, and there has been opposition to that from
:10:34. > :10:37.groups who do not agree with him. But what might actually shackle him
:10:38. > :10:40.is none of that. It is the fact that he is in government with a party
:10:41. > :10:44.that does not always agree with him, he has to abide by the rulings of
:10:45. > :10:50.the European Court of Human Rights, and in those famous words, there is
:10:51. > :10:56.no money left. We would like to go further and faster. I would like him
:10:57. > :10:59.too, but we are where we are. If the Liberal Democrats want to be wiped
:11:00. > :11:04.out at the next election based on what they believe, that is fair
:11:05. > :11:09.enough. We accept there has to be savings, but there are areas where
:11:10. > :11:16.we feel that there is ideological driven policy-making going on, and
:11:17. > :11:22.privatising may not save any money at all, and so does not make any
:11:23. > :11:30.sense. The question is, we'll all of that means some of Chris Grayling's
:11:31. > :11:40.reforms need closer inspection? Chris Grayling joins me now.
:11:41. > :11:48.Welcome. We have a lot to cover If you get your way, your own personal
:11:49. > :11:49.way, will be next Tory manifesto promise to withdraw from the
:11:50. > :11:58.European Convention of human rights? It will contain a promise
:11:59. > :12:02.for radical changes. We have to curtail the role of the European
:12:03. > :12:07.court here, replace our human rights act from the late 1990s, make our
:12:08. > :12:12.Supreme Court our Supreme Court they can be no question of decisions
:12:13. > :12:15.over riding it elsewhere, and we have to have a situation where our
:12:16. > :12:21.laws contain a balance of rights and responsibilities. People talk about
:12:22. > :12:26.knowing their rights, but they do not accept they have responsible it
:12:27. > :12:36.is. This is what you said last September, I want to see our Supreme
:12:37. > :12:40.Court being supreme again... That is clear, but let's be honest, the
:12:41. > :12:43.Supreme Court cannot be supreme as long as its decisions can be
:12:44. > :12:49.referred to the European Court in Strasbourg. There is clearly an
:12:50. > :12:54.issue, that was raised recency - recently. We have been working on a
:12:55. > :12:59.detailed reform plan, we will publish that in the not too distant
:13:00. > :13:02.future. What we will set out is a direction of travel for a new
:13:03. > :13:07.Conservative government that will mean wholesale change in this area.
:13:08. > :13:13.You already tried to reform the European Court, who had this
:13:14. > :13:18.declaration in 2012, do you accept that the reform is off the table?
:13:19. > :13:22.There is still a process of reform, but it is not going fast enough and
:13:23. > :13:24.not delivering the kind of change we need. That is why we will bring
:13:25. > :13:29.forward a package that for the different from that and will set a
:13:30. > :13:33.different direction of travel. We are clear across the coalition, we
:13:34. > :13:39.have a different view from our colleagues. You cannot be half
:13:40. > :13:44.pregnant on this, either our decisions from our Supreme Court are
:13:45. > :13:50.subject to the European Cup or not, in which case, we are not part of
:13:51. > :13:53.the European court. I hope you will see from our proposals we have come
:13:54. > :13:56.up with a sensible strategy that deals with this issue once and for
:13:57. > :14:03.all. Can we be part of the Strasbourg court and yet our Supreme
:14:04. > :14:08.Court be supreme? That is by point, we have to curtail the role of the
:14:09. > :14:12.court in the UK. I am clear that is what we will seek to do. It is what
:14:13. > :14:18.we will do for this country. But how? I am not going to announce the
:14:19. > :14:22.package of policies today, but we will go into the next election with
:14:23. > :14:28.a clear strategy that will curtail the role of the European Court of
:14:29. > :14:33.Human Rights in the UK. The decisions have to be taken in
:14:34. > :14:36.Parliament in this country. Are you sure that you have got your own side
:14:37. > :14:54.on this? Look at what the Attorney General says.
:14:55. > :15:07.I would be asking Strasberg a different question to that. If the
:15:08. > :15:10.best in class, he is saying is enough is enough, actually somebody
:15:11. > :15:15.in Strasberg should be asking if this has gone the way it should have
:15:16. > :15:18.done. I would love to see wholesale reform in the court tomorrow, I m
:15:19. > :15:24.not sure it is going to happen which is why we are going to the election
:15:25. > :15:29.with a clear plan for this country. Would you want that to be a red line
:15:30. > :15:35.in any coalition agreement? My mission is to win the next election
:15:36. > :15:41.with a majority. But you have to say where your red lines would be. We
:15:42. > :15:46.have been very clear it is an area where we don't agree as parties but
:15:47. > :15:50.in my view the public in this country are overwhelmingly behind
:15:51. > :15:54.the Conservative party. 95 Conservative MPs have written to the
:15:55. > :15:59.Prime Minister, demanding he gives the House of Commons the authority
:16:00. > :16:03.to veto any aspect of European Union law. Are you one of the people who
:16:04. > :16:08.wanted to sign that letter but you couldn't because you are minister? I
:16:09. > :16:22.haven't been asked to sign the letter. We need a red card system
:16:23. > :16:27.for European law. I'm not convinced my colleagues... I don't think it is
:16:28. > :16:32.realistic to have a situation where one parliament can veto laws across
:16:33. > :16:35.the European Union. I understand the concerns of my colleagues, but when
:16:36. > :16:41.we set out to renegotiate our membership, we have got to deliver
:16:42. > :16:45.renegotiation and deliver a system which is viable, and I'm not
:16:46. > :16:48.convinced we can have a situation where one Parliament can prevent
:16:49. > :16:56.laws across the whole European Union. So you wouldn't have signed
:16:57. > :17:04.this letter? I'm not sure it is the right approach. I support the system
:17:05. > :17:07.I just talked about. Iain Duncan Smith has suggested EU migrants
:17:08. > :17:11.coming to work in this country should have to wait for two years
:17:12. > :17:19.before they qualify for welfare benefits, do you agree? Yes, I think
:17:20. > :17:23.there should be an assumption that before you can move from one country
:17:24. > :17:27.to another, before you can start to take back from that country's social
:17:28. > :17:33.welfare system, you should have made a contribution to it. I spent two
:17:34. > :17:36.and a half years working in Brussels trying to get the European
:17:37. > :17:41.Commission to accept the need for change. There is a groundswell of
:17:42. > :17:46.opinion out there which is behind Iain Duncan Smith in what he is
:17:47. > :17:49.saying. I think we should push for a clear system that says people should
:17:50. > :17:56.be able to move from one country to get a job, but to move to another
:17:57. > :18:03.country to live off the state is not acceptable. You are planning a new
:18:04. > :18:07.2000 capacity mega prison and other smaller presence which will be run
:18:08. > :18:13.by private firms. After what has happened with G4S, why would you do
:18:14. > :18:20.that? No decision has been made about whether it will be public or
:18:21. > :18:27.private. What do you think it will be? I'm not sure yet. There is no
:18:28. > :18:33.clear correlation over public and private prisons and whether there
:18:34. > :18:37.are problems or otherwise. Oakwood is in its early stages, it has had
:18:38. > :18:43.teething problems at the start, but the rate of disturbance there is
:18:44. > :18:49.only typical for an average prison of its category. If you take an
:18:50. > :18:55.example of Parc prison in Wales a big private run prison, run by G4S,
:18:56. > :18:59.when it was first launched under the last government it had teething
:19:00. > :19:05.problems of the same kind as Oakwood and is now regarded as one of the
:19:06. > :19:10.best performing prisons. Why would you give it to a private company
:19:11. > :19:15.then? We have only just got planning permission for the so we will not be
:19:16. > :19:22.thinking about this for another few years. Some of the companies who run
:19:23. > :19:29.prisons are under investigation with dreadful track records. In the case
:19:30. > :19:32.of G4S, what we have experienced is acceptable and they have not been
:19:33. > :19:36.able to go ahead with a number of contracts they might have otherwise
:19:37. > :19:43.got. They are having to prove to the Government they are fit to win
:19:44. > :19:48.contracts from the Government again. They are having to pay compensation
:19:49. > :19:53.to the Government and the taxpayer. What has happened is unacceptable.
:19:54. > :20:04.So why would you give them a 20 0 capacity mega prison? Or anyone like
:20:05. > :20:09.them? It cannot be said that every private company is bad. In addition
:20:10. > :20:13.to problems at Oakwood, you are quite unique now in your position
:20:14. > :20:18.that you have managed to get the barristers out on strike the first
:20:19. > :20:25.time since history began. What happens if the bar refuses to do
:20:26. > :20:31.work at your new rates of legal aid and the courts grind to a halt? I
:20:32. > :20:35.don't believe that will happen. When the barristers came out on strike,
:20:36. > :20:39.three quarters of Crown Courts were operating normally, 95% of
:20:40. > :20:44.magistrates courts were operating normally. We are having to take
:20:45. > :20:49.difficult decisions across government, I have no desire to cut
:20:50. > :20:55.back lately but we are spending over ?2 billion on legal aid at the
:20:56. > :21:00.moment at a time when budgets are becoming tougher. You issued
:21:01. > :21:07.misleading figures about criminal barristers, you said that 25% of
:21:08. > :21:13.them earn over ?100,000 per year but that is their turnover, including
:21:14. > :21:18.VAT. 33% of that money goes on their expenses, they have to pay for their
:21:19. > :21:24.own pensions and insurance. People are not getting wealthy out of doing
:21:25. > :21:30.this work. I don't publish figures, our statisticians do, with caveats
:21:31. > :21:32.in place explaining the situation. Where you have high-cost cases,
:21:33. > :21:38.where we have taken the most difficult decisions, we have tried
:21:39. > :21:47.hard in taking difficult decisions to focus the impact higher up the
:21:48. > :21:54.income scale. But do you accept their take-home pay is not 100, 00?
:21:55. > :21:58.I accept they have to take out other costs, although some things like
:21:59. > :22:09.travelling to the court, you and I and everyone else has to pay for
:22:10. > :22:15.travelling to work. That is net of VAT. We have had a variety of
:22:16. > :22:21.figures published, some are and some are not. Let's be clear, the gross
:22:22. > :22:26.figures for fees from legal payments include 20% VAT. On a week when even
:22:27. > :22:36.a cabinet minister can be fitted up by the police, don't we all need
:22:37. > :22:40.well-financed legal aid? There is no chance that as a result
:22:41. > :22:52.well-financed legal aid? There is no changes people will end up in court
:22:53. > :22:55.unable to defend themselves. We have said in exceptional circumstances,
:22:56. > :22:59.if you haven't got any money to pay, we will support you, but there is no
:23:00. > :23:04.question of anyone ended up in court, facing a criminal charge
:23:05. > :23:10.where they haven't got a lawyer to defend them. Let's look at how so
:23:11. > :23:16.many dangerous criminals have managed to avoid jail. Here are the
:23:17. > :23:25.figures for 2012. Half the people for sexual assault found guilty not
:23:26. > :23:32.jailed. I thought you were meant to be tough on crime? Those figures
:23:33. > :23:37.predate my time, but since 2010 the number of those people going to jail
:23:38. > :23:41.has been increasing steadily. If you put the figures for 2010 on there,
:23:42. > :23:47.you would see a significant change. We will never be in a position where
:23:48. > :23:52.everybody who commits violence will end up in jail. The courts will
:23:53. > :23:56.often decided to his more appropriate to give a community
:23:57. > :24:01.sentence, but the trend is towards longer sentences and more people
:24:02. > :24:07.going to jail. That maybe but it is even quite hard to get sent to jail
:24:08. > :24:12.if you do these things a lot, again and again. In 2012 one criminal
:24:13. > :24:23.avoided being sent to jail despite having more than 300 offences to his
:24:24. > :24:27.name. 36,000 avoided going to jail despite 15 previous offences. That
:24:28. > :24:33.is why we are taking steps to toughen up the system. Last autumn
:24:34. > :24:38.we scrapped repeat cautions. You could find people getting dozens. As
:24:39. > :24:42.of last autumn, we have scrapped repeat cautions. If you commit the
:24:43. > :24:48.same offence twice within a two year period you will go to court. You
:24:49. > :24:56.still might end up not going to jail. More and more people are going
:24:57. > :25:02.to jail. I cannot just magic another 34,000 prison places. You haven t
:25:03. > :25:06.got room to put bad people in jail? The courts will take the decisions,
:25:07. > :25:12.and it is for them to take the decisions and not me, that two men
:25:13. > :25:18.in a bar fight do not merit a jail sentence. These figures contain a
:25:19. > :25:24.huge amount of offences from the most minor of offences to the most
:25:25. > :25:28.despicable. Something is wrong if you can commit 300 offences and
:25:29. > :25:33.still not end up in jail. That's right, and we are taking steps so
:25:34. > :25:40.this cannot happen any more. Nick Clegg said this morning you are
:25:41. > :25:49.going to make 12 billion of welfare cuts on the back of this, he is
:25:50. > :25:56.right, isn't he? People on the lowest incomes are often not paying
:25:57. > :26:02.tax at all, the rich... But these cuts will fall disproportionately on
:26:03. > :26:09.average earners, correct? Let's look at the proposal to limit housing
:26:10. > :26:15.benefit for under 25s. Until today, after people have left school or
:26:16. > :26:19.college, the live for a time with their parents. For some, that is not
:26:20. > :26:23.possible and we will have to take that into account, but we have said
:26:24. > :26:28.there is a strong case for saying you will not get housing benefit
:26:29. > :26:32.until you are some years down the road and have properly established
:26:33. > :26:40.yourselves in work. And by definition these people are on lower
:26:41. > :26:45.than average salaries. Give me a case in which those on the higher
:26:46. > :26:50.tax band will contribute to the cuts. We have already put in place
:26:51. > :26:54.tax changes so that the highest tax rate is already higher than it was
:26:55. > :27:03.in every year of the last government. The amount of tax..
:27:04. > :27:08.There is no more expected of the rich. We will clearly look at future
:27:09. > :27:12.policy and work out how best to distribute the tax burden in this
:27:13. > :27:18.country and it is not for me to second-guess George Osborne's future
:27:19. > :27:23.plans, but we need to look at for example housing benefit for the
:27:24. > :27:29.under 25s. Is it right for those who are not working for the state to
:27:30. > :27:33.provide accommodation for them? Thank you for being with us.
:27:34. > :27:36.All three major parties at Westminster agree there's an urgent
:27:37. > :27:39.need to build more homes for Britain's growing population. But
:27:40. > :27:42.how they get built, and where, looks set to become a major battle ground
:27:43. > :27:44.in the run-up to the next general election.
:27:45. > :27:47.Although 16% more house-builds were started in 2012/13 than the previous
:27:48. > :27:55.year, the number actually completed fell by 8% - the lowest level in
:27:56. > :27:57.peacetime since 1920. The Office for National Statistics estimates that
:27:58. > :28:05.between now and 2021 we should expect 220,000 new households to be
:28:06. > :28:07.created every year. At his party's conference last autumn, Ed Miliband
:28:08. > :28:16.promised a Labour government would massively increase house-building. I
:28:17. > :28:21.will have a clear aim but by the end of the parliament, Britain will be
:28:22. > :28:25.building 200,000 homes per year more than at any time for a
:28:26. > :28:29.generation. That is how we make Britain better than this. The Labour
:28:30. > :28:32.leader also says he'd give urban councils a "right to grow" so rural
:28:33. > :28:37.neighbours can't block expansion and force developers with unused land to
:28:38. > :28:39.use it or lose it. The Government has been pursuing its own ideas
:28:40. > :28:43.including loan guarantees for developers and a new homes bonus to
:28:44. > :28:47.boost new house-building. But David Cameron could have trouble keeping
:28:48. > :28:49.his supporters on side - this week the senior backbencher Nadhim Zahawi
:28:50. > :28:56.criticised planning reforms for causing "physical harm" to the
:28:57. > :28:59.countryside. Nick Clegg meanwhile prefers a radical solution - brand
:29:00. > :29:13.new garden cities in the south east of England. In a speech tomorrow,
:29:14. > :29:16.Labour's shadow housing minister Emma Reynolds will give more details
:29:17. > :29:18.of how Labour would boost house-building, and she joins me
:29:19. > :29:23.now. It is not the politicians to blame, it is the lack of
:29:24. > :29:29.house-builders? We want a vibrant building industry, and at the moment
:29:30. > :29:33.that industry is dominated by big house-builders. I want to see a more
:29:34. > :29:39.diverse and competitive industry, where self build plays a greater
:29:40. > :29:45.role. In France over 60% of new homes are built by self builders,
:29:46. > :29:50.but small builders build more homes as well. 25 years ago they were
:29:51. > :29:55.building two thirds of new homes, now they are not building even a
:29:56. > :29:58.third of new homes. That's because land policies have been so
:29:59. > :30:04.restrictive that it is only the big companies who can afford to buy the
:30:05. > :30:08.land, so little land is being released for house building. I
:30:09. > :30:11.agree, there are some fundamental structural problems with the land
:30:12. > :30:15.market and that is why we have said there doesn't just need to be
:30:16. > :30:20.tinkering around the edges, there needs to be real reforms to make
:30:21. > :30:24.sure that small builders and self build and custom-built have access
:30:25. > :30:29.to land. They are saying they have problems with access to land and
:30:30. > :30:36.finance. At the end of the day it will not be self, small builders who
:30:37. > :30:40.reach your target, it will be big builders. I think it is pretty
:30:41. > :30:48.shameful that in Western Europe the new houses built in the UK are
:30:49. > :30:53.smaller than our neighbours. But isn't not the land problem? France
:30:54. > :31:02.is 2.8 times bigger in land mass and we are and that is not a problem for
:31:03. > :31:06.them. There is a perception we are going to build on the countryside,
:31:07. > :31:16.but not even 10% is on the countryside. There is enough for us
:31:17. > :31:20.to have our golf courses. There is enough other land for us to build on
:31:21. > :31:24.that is not golf courses. The planning minister has said he wants
:31:25. > :31:27.to build our National Parks, I am not suggesting that. The single
:31:28. > :31:33.biggest land border is the public sector. It is not. There are great
:31:34. > :31:39.opportunities for releasing public land, that is why I have been asking
:31:40. > :31:43.the government, they say they are going to release and of public land
:31:44. > :31:47.for tens of thousands of new homes to be built, but they say they are
:31:48. > :31:53.not monitoring how many houses are being built on the site. When your
:31:54. > :31:59.leader says to landowners, housing development owners, either use the
:32:00. > :32:06.land or lose it, in what way will they lose it? Will you confiscated?
:32:07. > :32:11.This is about strengthening the hand of local authorities, and they say
:32:12. > :32:14.to us that in some cases, house-builders are sitting on land.
:32:15. > :32:21.In those cases, we would give the power to local authorities to
:32:22. > :32:26.escalate fees. This would be the compulsory purchase orders, a matter
:32:27. > :32:34.of last resort, and you would hope that by strengthening the hand of
:32:35. > :32:37.local authorities, you could get the house-builders to start building the
:32:38. > :32:43.homes that people want. Would you compulsory purchase it? We would
:32:44. > :32:48.give the local authority as a last resort, after escalating the fees,
:32:49. > :32:52.the possibility and flexible it is to use the compulsory purchase
:32:53. > :32:56.orders to sell the land on to a house builder who wants to build
:32:57. > :33:00.houses that we need. Can you name one report that has come back in
:33:01. > :33:03.recent years that shows that hoarding of land by house-builders
:33:04. > :33:07.is a major problem? The IMF, the Conservative mayor of London and the
:33:08. > :33:11.Local Government Association are telling us that there is a problem
:33:12. > :33:15.with land hoarding. Therefore, we have said, where there is land with
:33:16. > :33:21.planning permission, and if plots are being sat on... Boris Johnson
:33:22. > :33:25.says there are 180,000 plots in London being sat on. We need to make
:33:26. > :33:32.sure the house-builders are building the homes that young families need.
:33:33. > :33:37.They get planning permission and sell it on to the developer. There
:33:38. > :33:42.is a whole degree of complicity but there is another problem before
:33:43. > :33:46.that. That is around transparency about land options. There is
:33:47. > :33:51.agricultural land that house-builders have land options on,
:33:52. > :33:55.and we do not know where that is. Where there is a need for housing,
:33:56. > :34:01.and the biggest demand is in the south-east of England, that is where
:34:02. > :34:06.many local authorities are most reluctant to do it, will you in
:34:07. > :34:09.central government take powers to force these authorities to give it?
:34:10. > :34:20.We have talked about the right to grow, we were in Stevenage
:34:21. > :34:25.recently. What we have said is we want to strengthen the hand of local
:34:26. > :34:30.authorities like Stevenage so they are not blocked every step of the
:34:31. > :34:34.way. They need 16,000 new homes but they do not have the land supply.
:34:35. > :34:38.What about the authorities that do not want to do it? They should be
:34:39. > :34:42.forced to sit down and agree with the neighbouring authority. In
:34:43. > :34:46.Stevenage, it is estimated at ?500,000 has been spent on legal
:34:47. > :34:52.fees because North Hertfordshire is blocking Stevenage every step of the
:34:53. > :34:56.way. Michael Lyons says the national interest will have to take President
:34:57. > :35:02.over local interest. Voice cannot mean a veto. The local community in
:35:03. > :35:08.Stevenage is crying out for new homes. Do you agree? There has to be
:35:09. > :35:14.land available for new homes to be built, and in areas like Oxford
:35:15. > :35:15.Luton and Stevenage... Do you agree with Michael Lyons? The national
:35:16. > :35:37.interest does have to be served with Michael Lyons? The national
:35:38. > :35:43.will put the five new towns? We have asked him to look at how we can
:35:44. > :35:48.incentivise local authorities to come forward with sites for new
:35:49. > :35:53.towns. You cannot tell us where they are going to be? I cannot. We will
:35:54. > :35:59.have to wait for him. When you look at the historic figures overall not
:36:00. > :36:02.at the moment, Private Housing building is only just beginning to
:36:03. > :36:05.recover, but it has been pretty steady for a while. The
:36:06. > :36:07.recover, but it has been pretty difference between house-building
:36:08. > :36:11.now and in the past, since Mrs Thatcher came to power a and
:36:12. > :36:17.including the Tony Blair government, we did not build council houses
:36:18. > :36:22.Almost none. Will the next Labour government embark on a major council
:36:23. > :36:28.has programme? We inherited housing stock back in 1997... This is
:36:29. > :36:31.has programme? We inherited housing important. Will the next Labour
:36:32. > :36:35.government embark on a major council has programme? We have called on
:36:36. > :36:39.this government to bring forward investment in social housing. We
:36:40. > :36:44.want to see an investment programme in social housing, I cannot give you
:36:45. > :36:48.away from the election. Will the away from the election. Will the
:36:49. > :36:51.next Labour government embark on away from the election. Will the
:36:52. > :36:55.major council house Northern programme? I want to see a council
:36:56. > :36:57.house building programme, because there is a big shortage of council
:36:58. > :37:06.homes. That is a guess? Yes. We got there is a big shortage of council
:37:07. > :37:13.there in the end. -- that is a yes? We will be talking to Patrick homes
:37:14. > :37:15.in the West Midlands in a moment. You are watching the Sunday
:37:16. > :37:18.in the West Midlands in a moment. Politics. Coming up in just over 20
:37:19. > :37:43.minutes, I will look at the week ahead with our political
:37:44. > :37:52.The sheer. We ask why so many town halls are refusing calls to freeze
:37:53. > :38:01.bills. Could an independent Scotland
:38:02. > :38:10.reopened dishes railway lines. Here are my first guess of 2014. Welcome
:38:11. > :38:19.to you both. There are more bookies on the Regent `` region's High
:38:20. > :38:24.Street. That is 1000 of them in the North East alone. Some people have
:38:25. > :38:30.described them as the crack cocaine of gambling addiction. Labour wants
:38:31. > :38:36.councils to begin in more powers to limit these machines. How big a
:38:37. > :38:40.problem are these? Labour called a debate on this issue because we are
:38:41. > :38:47.very concerned about the increasing numbers. Also the areas they are
:38:48. > :38:51.targeted on. They are targeted on deprived areas and we know people
:38:52. > :38:56.are getting addicted to these machines. We would like to see
:38:57. > :39:01.better regulation and better safety aspects. Councils have the power to
:39:02. > :39:09.make decisions whether they want more betting shops under High
:39:10. > :39:16.Street. They tend to be springing up at every opportunity. They are part
:39:17. > :39:22.of the same class use as financial institutions like banks and building
:39:23. > :39:26.societies. If a company want to put a new shop in one of those premises,
:39:27. > :39:33.they do not need authorisation from the authority to do that. ?1 billion
:39:34. > :39:37.in the North East went into these machines. The government has been
:39:38. > :39:45.dithering about whether to take action. It is clearly a problem.
:39:46. > :39:49.There is a problem and the Liberal Democrats are clear about that. We
:39:50. > :39:52.are forced the government to take action. It was the Labour Party that
:39:53. > :39:57.permitted these onto the High Street in the first place, even though the
:39:58. > :40:02.Liberal Democrats warned at the time and voted against it at the time. It
:40:03. > :40:08.was predictable that putting these machines onto the High Street would
:40:09. > :40:14.have these effects. We need to see change. The industry is being told
:40:15. > :40:23.to tighten controls by March or face action. Evidence is being gathered
:40:24. > :40:31.at the moment. The liberal Democrats supported the government this week.
:40:32. > :40:39.They say they need to train control this. We have always said it needs
:40:40. > :40:43.to be kept under review. Unfortunately, as often with
:40:44. > :40:54.opposition, you have to look at the wording of the motion. It... I am
:40:55. > :40:56.afraid the motion by Labour would have made no difference to the
:40:57. > :41:04.existing situation in the High Street. We have to leave it there.
:41:05. > :41:09.Now to the council tax. The cost could be about to go even higher.
:41:10. > :41:13.The government says local councils should be thinking of householders
:41:14. > :41:17.and putting a freeze on bills. A number of councils have said they
:41:18. > :41:23.cannot afford to do that. It is all smiles at this children's centre
:41:24. > :41:31.today, but that is a threat. The council is thinking of having their
:41:32. > :41:35.budget for children's centres. We have used the centre in the past and
:41:36. > :41:39.many of us have second babies on the way and we are panicking if it will
:41:40. > :41:46.not be there. I have always worked and my taxes. At a time when I
:41:47. > :41:54.needed now, the service I rely on is at risk. The council says it could
:41:55. > :42:00.contribute to a target cut. It also asks if people might be prepared to
:42:01. > :42:08.pay council tax with an increase to protect services. We want to protect
:42:09. > :42:16.services like this. The only way to do that is to say to people, will
:42:17. > :42:21.you pay more? People in Gateshead seemed divided about whether they
:42:22. > :42:32.would pay more. I would rather pay less, not more. Yes, just to keep
:42:33. > :42:39.care in the community going. Yes, I would. I think we pay enough
:42:40. > :42:45.already. I am struggling as it is. Some councils the bills will have to
:42:46. > :42:49.go up. Darlington is planning a 2% rise. It will not stop all the cuts.
:42:50. > :42:53.This railway museum will lose its funding in two years. The council
:42:54. > :43:00.says it will make a difference with the increase. 2% is not a lot. It is
:43:01. > :43:09.a lot if you are on benefits and on top of the other charges. The
:43:10. > :43:14.alternative is that something like 60% of social care might be cut. We
:43:15. > :43:24.cannot achieve this without the increase. We need that revenue. Eric
:43:25. > :43:29.Pickles says he has provided enough help for councils to freeze bills.
:43:30. > :43:34.He might be more angry when he sees with other councils have planned.
:43:35. > :43:41.Durham, North Yorkshire, Cumbria, Carlisle, Copeland, Allerdale,
:43:42. > :43:48.Northumberland and middle but at all considering an increase of 2%. ``
:43:49. > :43:56.). Even Darlington conservatives accept there might have to be arise.
:43:57. > :43:59.We do have major concerns because they are also talking about reading
:44:00. > :44:05.the balances over the next two years to try and balance the books. We had
:44:06. > :44:11.another very serious situation. We have to look at more in marriage and
:44:12. > :44:16.at ways of providing services. Unless local authorities can be
:44:17. > :44:22.persuaded of their local track, the plans for a freeze could be
:44:23. > :44:26.derailed. Given the financial position of councils, you can
:44:27. > :44:34.understand it goes back clearly times are tough. Councils rely
:44:35. > :44:38.heavily on government grants. We have seen big cuts going on. Redcar
:44:39. > :44:42.have recently done a fundamental review of their services which will
:44:43. > :44:47.save a large amount of money for local taxpayers. It will mean some
:44:48. > :44:56.people will lose their jobs which we regret. Is that acceptable? They
:44:57. > :45:01.have refused to do any freezing, apart from the very first year so we
:45:02. > :45:05.have seen the council tax go up every year and I am pleased they are
:45:06. > :45:07.finally getting to grips with sharing services and making things
:45:08. > :45:15.more efficient. That is what the public want. Wages are not going
:45:16. > :45:21.up. Yet it is Labour councils which are putting this up? We have to be
:45:22. > :45:29.clear about why councils are in this position. The government is
:45:30. > :45:34.implementing these cuts in an extremely unfair way. Councils and
:45:35. > :45:39.the more deprived areas in the country are being hit really hard
:45:40. > :45:43.when more affluent parts are actually getting an increase in
:45:44. > :45:51.funding from the government. It is about choices... People who are
:45:52. > :45:56.struggling to make ends meet are being charged more? Newcastle have
:45:57. > :46:03.taken a decision to freeze council tax. They have seen an increase in
:46:04. > :46:07.requests for debt advice in the last two years. We know people are
:46:08. > :46:16.struggling with the cost of living, housing, rent, electricity bills.
:46:17. > :46:27.What is the game of Eric Pickles? Would be more anxious `` on its to
:46:28. > :46:31.save services? This decision is being left to local authorities
:46:32. > :46:36.because it is a decision they have to decide about what their residents
:46:37. > :46:41.can put up with. They have to provide value for money in the
:46:42. > :46:47.current circumstances. Newcastle has taken the decision that imposing an
:46:48. > :46:55.additional burden on households would just come back on debt. Eric
:46:56. > :47:03.Pickles's offer is a bogus one, it is a headline grabber. It will
:47:04. > :47:06.disappear within a couple of years? The problem for councils is they can
:47:07. > :47:14.take the government money but it does not shake `` change the base.
:47:15. > :47:23.It is 1% of the budget. That enables councils to freeze council tax.
:47:24. > :47:31.Newcastle is one of these. That is the choice, it is a local choice.
:47:32. > :47:36.Actually, Eric Pickles will not raise council tax above 2% without a
:47:37. > :47:44.referendum. That is not local democracy. Let people choose.
:47:45. > :47:50.Referendums are democracy. Do you want a referendum every time you
:47:51. > :47:55.change tax rates in the budget? Now, but the choice you have referred to
:47:56. > :47:59.is what he's giving people. There is also money available for two more
:48:00. > :48:02.years of threes but it remains to be seen whether people will take it or
:48:03. > :48:07.not. We will have two leave it there. Traditionally, Scotland has
:48:08. > :48:13.been seen as a threat to the North East, competing for jobs and
:48:14. > :48:17.investment. It is no surprise that many are worried about the prospect
:48:18. > :48:21.of Scotland getting more power after the independence referendum insert
:48:22. > :48:29.member. It could also bring benefits to our region. `` in September. The
:48:30. > :48:35.Waverley line ran through the Scottish Borders from Edinburgh to
:48:36. > :48:40.Carlisle and closed in 1969. In 2006, the Scottish Parliament made
:48:41. > :48:48.way for a partial restoration of the service. Work is already underway in
:48:49. > :48:52.Scotland. Extending the line to Cumbria is only an ambition at
:48:53. > :49:00.present. This is the biggest restoration project ever in the UK.
:49:01. > :49:05.It is over 30 miles. It has 60 miles to go. It will take a long time, but
:49:06. > :49:10.it is achievable. The current restoration will only go from
:49:11. > :49:14.Edinburgh to Tweedbank. Those who voted for it say independence will
:49:15. > :49:21.help extend the line back to Cumbria once more. Cross`border
:49:22. > :49:26.communications go beyond transport. I think transport is a major factor,
:49:27. > :49:31.but there are other issues we're working on. We want to work in
:49:32. > :49:40.collaboration with Scotland's own tourism, rural issues, retail.
:49:41. > :49:50.Carlisle is the capital of this particular region. Our catchment
:49:51. > :49:55.area for retail is a huge area. We attract a lot of people. It is
:49:56. > :50:01.really important. The strategic `` position of Carlisle is being taken
:50:02. > :50:07.into consideration as the referendum approaches. The referendum has drawn
:50:08. > :50:12.attention to things which have been ongoing like the way in which
:50:13. > :50:19.services are delivered and economic development is organised by either
:50:20. > :50:26.side of the border. We want to coordinator effort across`the`board.
:50:27. > :50:31.It is a range of areas that work through the local authorities.
:50:32. > :50:36.Improvements could be made. The prospect of independent Scotland is
:50:37. > :50:41.viewed as more of a challenge than an opportunity to those supporting a
:50:42. > :50:47.no vote. Carlisle is at the centre of the United Kingdom at present. If
:50:48. > :50:52.Scotland were independent, we would be a border city. I do not think
:50:53. > :51:00.that is a benefit to Scotland or Carlisle or England. We are better
:51:01. > :51:04.as a united country. How England could benefit from Scottish
:51:05. > :51:09.independence is far from clear, but the fact the referendum is happening
:51:10. > :51:20.is focusing minds in Cumbria. The SNP of history hopes for a yes
:51:21. > :51:22.vote. We spoke to an SNP member of the Scottish Parliament and asked
:51:23. > :51:32.him how realistic it was to talk about future independence. Clearly,
:51:33. > :51:39.I would like to see the real we reopen over a period of time. We
:51:40. > :51:44.have suggestions that might go all the way from Edinburgh to London. As
:51:45. > :51:51.a long`term objectives, I believe it is essential. We will insure that is
:51:52. > :51:56.meaningful communication between Carlisle and others. If that were
:51:57. > :52:05.likely to happen under an independent Scotland? I would say
:52:06. > :52:11.it's more likely, wouldn't I. The emphasis we have put on capital
:52:12. > :52:18.expenditure and infrastructure benefits that would be brought is of
:52:19. > :52:25.importance. What other kind of cross`border cooperation could
:52:26. > :52:33.people look forward to? There are similarities. If you look at
:52:34. > :52:39.Carlisle and Cumbria, the energy focus, this is an parallel with what
:52:40. > :52:42.we're trying to do in Scotland. There is no reason why we should not
:52:43. > :52:49.be able to work in partnership in the region successfully together.
:52:50. > :52:54.There is a great desire to dual the A1 in the North East. Would an
:52:55. > :53:01.independent Scotland help out with that? I do not know that I can
:53:02. > :53:07.comment on that. We have so many other priorities, but these are the
:53:08. > :53:12.kind of things we would want to discuss with the rest of the UK
:53:13. > :53:17.government and decide what is of major priority. That they to be one
:53:18. > :53:22.of them. There is anxiety south of the border, where people don't have
:53:23. > :53:30.a vote about what an independent Scotland might mean. What if
:53:31. > :53:35.Scotland set and lower corporation tax, businesses might head north of
:53:36. > :53:42.the border, so what can you say to reassure people? It is incumbent on
:53:43. > :53:46.the UK government to ensure that the people of the North East understand
:53:47. > :53:52.what the implications are for them when Scotland becomes independent. I
:53:53. > :53:57.believe will see more generation and enthusiasm, especially on the
:53:58. > :54:06.business front and tourism and agriculture. That will encourage
:54:07. > :54:12.less of London sucking all the economy down south.
:54:13. > :54:16.We hear a lot from unionists about the danger of Scottish
:54:17. > :54:19.independence, but is there an opportunity here to work with the
:54:20. > :54:27.government for a common cause? I think that opportunity currently
:54:28. > :54:34.exists and is being utilised. Most of what the SNP has to say to argue
:54:35. > :54:40.for independence unravels quickly as we see already on the clip you
:54:41. > :54:44.showed. You have seen, we work closely with Scotland's already. We
:54:45. > :54:52.have a lot of common interests. A government that can do more than it
:54:53. > :54:56.can do no? We are to have a government, a devolved
:54:57. > :55:03.administration which is working closely with local authorities. We
:55:04. > :55:11.have a common interest in the North Sea, the North Sea gas and oil, we
:55:12. > :55:15.see five daily flights to Aberdeen at the moment from Newcastle
:55:16. > :55:19.Airport. This is because of the skills we have freaky news for the
:55:20. > :55:24.benefit of Scotland. Also the benefit we have of having those jobs
:55:25. > :55:27.available to us. There are huge areas of independent `` of mutual
:55:28. > :55:36.interest we already work together on. If Scotland does go
:55:37. > :55:41.independent, cooperation can continue? If Scotland goes
:55:42. > :55:48.independent, they will be outside the UK and the European Union. They
:55:49. > :55:56.will not get in because Spain and others will veto it. We will have
:55:57. > :56:02.border points and immigration rules. That is not the intention of
:56:03. > :56:06.Scotland, is that? No, it is not but if they are not in the European
:56:07. > :56:12.Union, all our immigration laws will apply. I have spoken to people who
:56:13. > :56:19.live on one side of the border and work on the other and they say this
:56:20. > :56:25.is a nightmare. I think the more the SNP talk about this, the more
:56:26. > :56:28.logically give to the union. Our current system for the North East
:56:29. > :56:34.means we have to go cap in hand to London, Edinburgh is closest
:56:35. > :56:38.potential capital city. We already work closely with Scotland. We work
:56:39. > :56:50.on a number of issues across`the`board. `` cross border. I
:56:51. > :56:53.think ultimately we have two remember how deeply destabilising
:56:54. > :56:57.this talk of up potentially independent Scotland is at a time
:56:58. > :57:04.when the economy is still very fragile. We are talking about
:57:05. > :57:08.getting jobs into the economy and that has to be our focus,
:57:09. > :57:19.destabilising like this is very damaging. For Eric Pickles, his New
:57:20. > :57:22.Year resolution was not to make friends with local councils. He has
:57:23. > :57:33.already had an argument with them about rubbish. Here are the
:57:34. > :57:40.highlights. The government new bill has been
:57:41. > :57:45.approved but many asbestos victims. Be denied compensation according to
:57:46. > :57:52.a local MP. The Middlesbrough MP has asked the government to expand the
:57:53. > :57:58.use of the Darlington airport. The Berwick MP has asked the government
:57:59. > :58:02.to help deal with a fire which has been burning since September last
:58:03. > :58:09.year. The residents have been suffering from the fumes and small
:58:10. > :58:12.of potentially hazardous waste. The fire brigade can't protect the fire
:58:13. > :58:19.for a polluting the water supply. Councils which collect rubbish
:58:20. > :58:25.fortnightly are crazy, according to Eric Pickles. He wasn't returned
:58:26. > :58:29.weekly collections. This was the height of municipal splendour when
:58:30. > :58:37.it was built and now with the new town hall in Gateshead is to get a
:58:38. > :58:44.new lease of life as a music venue. Has Eric Pickles been mischievous
:58:45. > :58:49.about rubbish collections? When Redcar went to a weekly collection
:58:50. > :58:55.there was a row but there has been nothing since. It would cost more to
:58:56. > :58:59.go back to weekly collections so I think it is pie in the sky. I do not
:59:00. > :59:08.know why he has he and his border about this. Perhaps it is because
:59:09. > :59:15.people do care about this. `` RB in his bonnet. People are recycling
:59:16. > :59:22.more. The landfill charges are rising every year so it would be
:59:23. > :59:26.cost prohibitive to do what he is suggesting. It is very strange of
:59:27. > :59:30.him to talk about localism and then dictate from Whitehall how often
:59:31. > :59:37.people should get their bins collected. He has issued a crazy
:59:38. > :59:43.bible about bins for local authorities. It is patronising and
:59:44. > :59:49.he's just mischiefmaking. Or is he saying something that a lot of
:59:50. > :59:53.people do actually care about? Clearly, people who are still on
:59:54. > :00:00.weekly bends do not want to go to fortnightly bends. You do get used
:00:01. > :00:09.to it. I do not understand why he is going on about this. `` bins.
:00:10. > :00:17.Perhaps he is just trying to win friends and influence people. Keep
:00:18. > :00:21.up on Twitter with me. Make a comment on the BBC blog if you like.
:00:22. > :00:26.Back next will not be revoked. And I wouldn't
:00:27. > :00:36.want it to go. Thank you, back to Andrew.
:00:37. > :00:40.Can David Cameron get his way on EU migration? Will he ever be able to
:00:41. > :00:50.satisfy his backbenchers on Europe? Is Ed Miliband trying to change the
:00:51. > :00:55.tone of PMQ 's? More questions for the week ahead.
:00:56. > :01:01.We are joined by Jacob Rees Mogg from his constituency in Somerset.
:01:02. > :01:08.Welcome to the programme. You one of the 95 Tory backbenchers who signed
:01:09. > :01:11.this letter? Suddenly. Laws should be made by our democratically
:01:12. > :01:19.elected representatives, not from Brussels. How could Europe work with
:01:20. > :01:30.a pick and mix in which each national parliament can decide what
:01:31. > :01:33.Brussels can be in charge of? The European Union is a supernatural
:01:34. > :01:35.body that is there for the cooperation amongst member states to
:01:36. > :01:42.do things that they jointly want to do. It ought not be there to force
:01:43. > :01:45.-- to enforce uniform rules on countries that do not want to
:01:46. > :01:51.participate. It is the vision of Europe that people joined when we
:01:52. > :01:56.signed up to it and came in in 973. It has accreted powers to itself
:01:57. > :02:01.without having the support of the public of the member states. This is
:02:02. > :02:06.just a way of preparing the ground for you to get out of Europe
:02:07. > :02:10.altogether, isn't it? I do not big so. There is a role for an
:02:11. > :02:13.organisation that does some coordination and that has trade
:02:14. > :02:20.agreements within it, I do not think there is a role for a federal state.
:02:21. > :02:24.Europe seems to be dominating the. I remember your leader telling you not
:02:25. > :02:28.to bang on about Europe, your backbench colleagues seem to have
:02:29. > :02:36.ignored that. Would you like to restrict the flow of EU migrants to
:02:37. > :02:40.come to work in this country? Yes. I think we should have control of our
:02:41. > :02:45.own borders, so we can decide who we want to admit for the whole world.
:02:46. > :02:50.What we have at the moment is a restrictive control of people coming
:02:51. > :02:53.from anywhere other than the EU There is a big decrease in the
:02:54. > :02:58.number of New Zealanders who came in the last quarter for which figures
:02:59. > :03:03.are available, but a huge increase in people coming from the continent.
:03:04. > :03:06.Does it really make sense to stop our second cousins coming so that we
:03:07. > :03:12.can allow people freely to come from the continent? I do not think so, we
:03:13. > :03:16.need to have domestic control of our borders in the interests of the
:03:17. > :03:19.United Kingdom. There are still lots more people coming from the rest of
:03:20. > :03:28.the world than from the European Union. That has been changing. But
:03:29. > :03:31.there are still more. A lot more. The permanent residence coming from
:03:32. > :03:38.the European Union are extremely high. In the period when the Labour
:03:39. > :03:44.Party was in charge, we had to put 5 million people coming here, of whom
:03:45. > :03:51.about 1 billion were from Poland. -- we had 2.5 million people coming
:03:52. > :03:55.here. We have no control over them. Like the clock behind you, you are
:03:56. > :03:59.behind the times on these figures. I have stopped the clock for your
:04:00. > :04:06.benefit, because it was going to chime otherwise! I thought that
:04:07. > :04:15.might be distracting! Only a Tory backbencher could stop a clock!
:04:16. > :04:21.Helen, when you at this up, it is preparing to get out, is it not We
:04:22. > :04:25.have had this one bill about a referendum that seems to have tied
:04:26. > :04:32.us up in knots for months on end. If Parliament could scrutinise every
:04:33. > :04:36.piece of EU legislation, we would never get anything else done. It
:04:37. > :04:41.would be incredible. Even Chris Grayling said earlier that you can
:04:42. > :04:47.not have a national veto on anything that the EU proposes. I am surprised
:04:48. > :04:51.that Jacob Rees Mogg is talking about dismantling one of Margaret
:04:52. > :04:57.Thatcher's most important legacies, the creation of the single market,
:04:58. > :05:01.and the person sent there to dream it up under Margaret Thatcher said
:05:02. > :05:04.the only way you can run this sensibly is by not having national
:05:05. > :05:08.vetoes, because if you have that, guess what will happen? The French
:05:09. > :05:13.will impose lots of protectionist measures. It was Margaret
:05:14. > :05:16.Thatcher's idea that national parliaments should never veto. How
:05:17. > :05:28.could you fly in the face of the lady? Even the great lady makes
:05:29. > :05:31.mistakes. Excuse me, Jacob Rees Mogg says even Margaret Thatcher makes
:05:32. > :05:37.mistakes! No wonder the clock has stopped! Even be near divine
:05:38. > :05:46.Margaret made a mistake! But on the single market, it has been used as
:05:47. > :05:49.an excuse for massive origination of domestic affairs. We should be
:05:50. > :05:53.interested in free trade in Europe and allowing people to export and
:05:54. > :05:58.import freely, not to have uniform regulations, as per the single
:05:59. > :06:03.market, because what that allows is thought unelected bureaucrats to
:06:04. > :06:07.determine the regular vision. We want the British people to decide
:06:08. > :06:11.the rules for themselves. If this makes the single market not work,
:06:12. > :06:17.that is not the problem, because we can still have free trade, which is
:06:18. > :06:23.more important. If David Cameron is watching this, I am sure he is, it
:06:24. > :06:28.will be nice for you to come on and give us an interview, he must be
:06:29. > :06:33.worried. He is beginning to think, I am losing control. It is a clever
:06:34. > :06:40.letter, the tone is ingratiating and pleasant, every time, you have stood
:06:41. > :06:44.up to Brussels, you have achieved something, but the content is
:06:45. > :06:48.dramatic. If you want Parliament to have a veto, you want to leave the
:06:49. > :06:53.EU, because the definition is accepting the primacy of European
:06:54. > :06:57.law. The MPs should be clear about that. It is almost a year since the
:06:58. > :07:02.Europe speech in which David Cameron committed to the referendum. The
:07:03. > :07:07.political objective was to put that issue to bed until the next
:07:08. > :07:12.election. It has failed. David Cameron is going to have to pull off
:07:13. > :07:16.a major miracle in any renegotiations to satisfy all of
:07:17. > :07:23.this. Yes, it makes me think how much luckier he has been in
:07:24. > :07:25.coalition with the Liberal Democrats, because there is a bit of
:07:26. > :07:30.the Tory party that is irreconcilable to what he wants to
:07:31. > :07:34.do. The Conservative MPs are making these demands just as David Cameron
:07:35. > :07:39.is seeing the debate goes his way in Europe. Angela Merkel has looked
:07:40. > :07:44.over the cliff and said, do I want the UK out? No, they are a
:07:45. > :07:49.counterbalance to France. France one the UK to leave, but they do not,
:07:50. > :07:55.because they do not want to lose the only realistic military power Tom
:07:56. > :08:00.other than themselves. Just when the debate is going David Cameron's way,
:08:01. > :08:06.Jacob Rees Mogg would take us out. Let me move on to another subject.
:08:07. > :08:11.That is nonsense. The debate is not beginning to go David Cameron's way.
:08:12. > :08:15.We are having before us on Monday a bill about European citizenship and
:08:16. > :08:22.spending British taxpayers money so that Europe can go and say we are
:08:23. > :08:27.all EU citizens, but we signed up to being a part of a multinational
:08:28. > :08:30.organisation. The spin that it is going the way of the leader of a
:08:31. > :08:35.political party is one that has been used before, it was said of John
:08:36. > :08:40.Major, it was untrue then and it is now. It is, for the continuing
:08:41. > :08:50.deeper integration of the European Union. I want to ask a quick
:08:51. > :08:52.question. Chris Grayling said to us that the Tories would devise a way
:08:53. > :08:57.in which the British Supreme Court would be supreme in the proper
:08:58. > :09:00.meaning of that, but we could still be within the European Court of
:09:01. > :09:09.Human Rights. Can that circle be squared? I have no idea, the Lord
:09:10. > :09:13.Chancellor is an able man, and I am sure he is good at squaring circles.
:09:14. > :09:23.I am not worried about whether we remain in the convention or not PMQ
:09:24. > :09:29.'s, we saw a bit about this week, Paul Gorgons had died, so the house
:09:30. > :09:32.was more subdued, but he wants a more subdued and serious prime
:09:33. > :09:38.ministers questions. Let's remind ourselves what it was like until
:09:39. > :09:41.now. What is clear is that he is
:09:42. > :09:46.floundering around and he has no answer to the Labour Party's energy
:09:47. > :09:50.price freeze. The difference is John Major is a good man, the Right
:09:51. > :09:57.Honourable gentleman is acting like a conman. Across the medical
:09:58. > :10:01.profession, they say there is a crisis in accident and emergency,
:10:02. > :10:07.and we have a Prime Minister saying, crisis, what crisis? How out of
:10:08. > :10:11.touch can hate the? You do not need it to be Christmas to know when you
:10:12. > :10:19.are sitting next to a turkey. It is not a bad line. Is Ed Miliband
:10:20. > :10:24.trying to change the tone of prime ministers questions? Is he right to
:10:25. > :10:26.do so? The important point is this was a special prime ministers
:10:27. > :10:33.questions, because everybody was really sad and by the death of Paul
:10:34. > :10:38.Goggins and in the country, the legacy of the floods. That was the
:10:39. > :10:43.first question that Ed Miliband asked about, so that cast a pall
:10:44. > :10:47.over proceedings. When it suits him, Ed Miliband would like to take a
:10:48. > :10:51.more statesman-like stance, but will it last? That is how David Cameron
:10:52. > :10:55.started. His first prime ministers questions, he said to Tony Blair, I
:10:56. > :11:02.would like to support you on education, and he did in a vote
:11:03. > :11:05.which meant Tony Blair could see off a naughty operation from Gordon
:11:06. > :11:11.Brown. But it did not last, they are parties with different visions.
:11:12. > :11:18.Jacob Rees Mogg, would you like to see it more subdued? I like a bit of
:11:19. > :11:22.Punch and Judy. You need to have fierce debate and people putting
:11:23. > :11:27.their views passionately, it is excellent. I am not good at it, I
:11:28. > :11:31.sit there quite quietly, but it is great fun, very exciting, and it is
:11:32. > :11:38.the most watched bit of the House of Commons each week. If it got as dull
:11:39. > :11:44.as ditchwater, nobody would pay attention. Three cheers for Punch
:11:45. > :11:48.and Judy. Ed Miliband is going to make a major speech on the economy
:11:49. > :11:52.this week. You can now define the general approach. We had it from
:11:53. > :12:00.Emma Reynolds, we have seen it over energy prices, this market is bust,
:12:01. > :12:05.the market is not working properly, and that will therefore justify
:12:06. > :12:11.substantial government intervention. Intervention which does not
:12:12. > :12:12.necessarily cost money. It is the deletion and reorganising
:12:13. > :12:16.industries. It constitutes an answer to the question which has been
:12:17. > :12:19.hounding him, what is the point of the Labour Party when there is no
:12:20. > :12:24.money left? He says, you do not spend a huge amount fiscally, but
:12:25. > :12:28.you arrange markets to achieve socially just outcomes without
:12:29. > :12:33.expenditure. It is quite serious stance. I am not sure it will
:12:34. > :12:39.survive the rigours of an election campaign, but it is an answer. Is
:12:40. > :12:43.that an approach, to use broken markets, to justify substantial
:12:44. > :12:48.state intervention? Yes, and the other big plank is infrastructure
:12:49. > :12:51.spending. The Lib Dems would not be against capital investment for info
:12:52. > :12:57.structure will stop Emma Reynolds talking about house-building, the
:12:58. > :13:01.idea of pumping money into the economy through infrastructure is
:13:02. > :13:05.something that the Labour Party will look at. Jacob Rees Mogg, you once
:13:06. > :13:11.thought Somerset should have its own time zone, and today, you have
:13:12. > :13:19.delivered on that promise! Live on the Sunday Politics! I try to
:13:20. > :13:23.deliver on my promises! That is all for today, the Daily
:13:24. > :13:28.Politics is on BBC Two every day this week, just before lunch. I
:13:29. > :13:33.aren't back next Sunday here on BBC One at 11am. -- I am back. If it is
:13:34. > :13:39.Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.