:00:40. > :00:46.Good morning and welcome to The Sunday Politics. Alex Salmond says a
:00:47. > :00:50.vote for Scottish independence would be an act of national self belief.
:00:51. > :00:54.His deputy joins us live from the SNP conference in Perth. Is
:00:55. > :00:57.Whitehall meddling too much in modern affairs? The Communities
:00:58. > :01:04.Whitehall meddling too much in Secretary, Eric Pickles, joins me
:01:05. > :01:05.for The Sunday Interview. Senior coppers will be answering questions
:01:06. > :01:16.this Thousands more jobs will be lost in
:01:17. > :01:20.the region's town halls. How long can the cuts go on?
:01:21. > :01:27.And claims high`interest credit is leaving families drowning in debt.
:01:28. > :01:36.All of that to come. And the Home Office minister sacked by Nick
:01:37. > :01:40.Clegg, who says his party is like a wonky shopping trolley, which keeps
:01:41. > :01:48.veering off to the left. He will join us live at noon. With me to
:01:49. > :01:53.unpack all of this, Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Iain Martin. They will be
:01:54. > :02:00.tweeting throughout the programme, using hashtag #bbcsp. It is the last
:02:01. > :02:03.day of the Scottish national party conference in Perth. We have
:02:04. > :02:07.discovered that Alex Salmond has been on the same diet as Beyonce.
:02:08. > :02:12.The SNP leader compared his attempts to lose weight with the campaign for
:02:13. > :02:17.independence - lots achieved so far, 20 more to do. In a moment, I will
:02:18. > :02:21.be joined by the deputy leader of the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon. First
:02:22. > :02:32.they report on the independence campaign. September 18 2014, the
:02:33. > :02:36.date of destiny for Scotland, the day when these campaigners hope its
:02:37. > :02:42.people will decide to vote yes for independence. In a recent poll, only
:02:43. > :02:47.14% said they knew enough to vote either way. That is unlikely to
:02:48. > :02:50.change any time soon. I think the Scottish people will be going to the
:02:51. > :02:53.polls next year still not knowing an awful lot of stuff which is
:02:54. > :02:59.important, because the outcome, in terms of taxation, debt, exactly
:03:00. > :03:03.what will happen to the allocation of assets between the two countries,
:03:04. > :03:07.will come about as a result of negotiation between a Scottish
:03:08. > :03:14.government and the UK Government. That is not stuff which will be
:03:15. > :03:17.known year. At the moment, polls suggest Scotland will decide to
:03:18. > :03:23.remain within the UK. A recent survey found that 44% of those
:03:24. > :03:29.questioned planned to vote no, 5% yes. But interestingly, the
:03:30. > :03:34.undecideds were at 31%, suggesting that Alex Salmond's task might be
:03:35. > :03:38.tough but not impossible. There are a number of reasons which make a
:03:39. > :03:43.vanilla campaign a good idea. It does not put off cautious voters, it
:03:44. > :03:47.allows for people to imagine their own version of what independence
:03:48. > :03:51.will be like, and crucially, it allows for the yes campaign to take
:03:52. > :03:55.advantage of any mistakes by the no campaign. In other words, the yes
:03:56. > :04:00.campaign are not out there with big ideas, they are just waiting for the
:04:01. > :04:03.no campaign to trip up. What we do know is that whatever happens next
:04:04. > :04:08.September, Scotland will be getting more power. From 2016, a separate
:04:09. > :04:11.income tax regime will come into force, giving the Scottish
:04:12. > :04:14.Parliament control over billions of pounds of revenue. What we do not
:04:15. > :04:18.know yet is how the alternative would pan out. There are issues
:04:19. > :04:24.which would be raised by independence, issues about how the
:04:25. > :04:26.national debt is allocated, what the currency will look like, how an
:04:27. > :04:31.independent Scotland would balance the books, because it would have a
:04:32. > :04:34.bigger job to do, even down the Whitehall government has to do.
:04:35. > :04:39.Those are really big issues, which a Scottish government would have to
:04:40. > :04:42.face, on top of whatever negotiation it had to have with the UK
:04:43. > :04:45.Government. The Scottish government's White Paper on
:04:46. > :04:52.independence, two to be published within weeks, should fill in some of
:04:53. > :04:56.the banks. But how Scotland votes in September may yet be determined by
:04:57. > :05:02.what it feels rather than what it knows. And joining me from Perth is
:05:03. > :05:09.Scotland's Deputy First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon. Nicola Sturgeon, we
:05:10. > :05:13.meet again! Hello, Andrew. Former leader of the SNP Gordon Wilson
:05:14. > :05:17.said, if this referendum fails, it will fail on the basis that people
:05:18. > :05:21.put their British identity ahead of their Scottish identity, so we have
:05:22. > :05:27.got to attack on the British identity - what does he mean? Gordon
:05:28. > :05:33.Wilson is a very respected, much loved former leader of the SNP. My
:05:34. > :05:36.view is that I do not think the independence referendum is really
:05:37. > :05:41.about identity. I am secure and proud of my Scottish identity, but
:05:42. > :05:49.this is a decision about where power best lies. Do decision-making powers
:05:50. > :05:51.best lie here in Scotland, with a government which is directly
:05:52. > :05:56.accountable to the people of Scotland, or does it best lie in
:05:57. > :06:00.Westminster, with governments which, very often, people in Scotland do
:06:01. > :06:08.not vote for? That is the issue at the heart of the campaign. Let me
:06:09. > :06:14.just clarify, you do not agree with him, that you need to go on the
:06:15. > :06:20.attack with regard to the British identity of Scottish people? No I
:06:21. > :06:24.do not think we are required to attack British identity. It is
:06:25. > :06:29.absolutely compatible for somebody to feel a sense of British identity
:06:30. > :06:31.but still support Scottish independence, because Scottish
:06:32. > :06:36.independence is about a transfer of power. It is about good government,
:06:37. > :06:40.accountable government, ensuring that decisions are taking here in
:06:41. > :06:44.Scotland, by people who have got the biggest stake in getting those
:06:45. > :06:48.decisions right. I represent a constituency in the south side of
:06:49. > :06:52.Glasgow, and if you speak to many people in my constituency, if you
:06:53. > :06:56.ask them their national identity, many of them would say Irish,
:06:57. > :07:00.Pakistani, Indian, Polish, and many of them will vote yes next year
:07:01. > :07:04.because they understand the issue at stake, which is the issue of where
:07:05. > :07:08.decisions are best taken. It looks like you are changing tack ex-, you
:07:09. > :07:13.have realised the softly softly approach, of saying that actually,
:07:14. > :07:16.nothing much will change, we will still have the Queen, the currency,
:07:17. > :07:24.and all the rest of it, is moving over towards voting for a left-wing
:07:25. > :07:30.future for Scotland... Well, I know that what we are doing is pointing
:07:31. > :07:35.out is pointing out the choice between two futures. If we vote yes,
:07:36. > :07:42.we take our own future into our own hands. We make sure that for ever
:07:43. > :07:46.after, we have governments which will be in demented policies which
:07:47. > :07:49.we have voted for. If we do not become independent, then we continue
:07:50. > :07:54.to run the risk of having governments not only that we do not
:07:55. > :07:57.vote for, but often, that Scotland rejects. We are seeing the
:07:58. > :08:01.dismantling of our system of social security. There are politicians in
:08:02. > :08:06.all of the UK parties who are itching to cut Scotland's share of
:08:07. > :08:11.spending. So Scotland faces a choice of two futures, and it is right to
:08:12. > :08:17.point out the positive consequences of voting yes, but also the
:08:18. > :08:22.consequences of voting no. But you are promising to reverse benefit
:08:23. > :08:24.cuts and increase the minimum wage. You would renationalise the Royal
:08:25. > :08:30.Mail, though how you would do that nobody knows. You are promising to
:08:31. > :08:35.cut energy bills. These are the kind of promises that parties make in a
:08:36. > :08:40.general election campaign, not in a once in 300 years extra stench or
:08:41. > :08:44.choice. Is the future of Scotland really going to be decided on the
:08:45. > :08:53.size of the minimum wage? -- existential choice. A yes vote would
:08:54. > :08:58.be about bringing decision-making powers home, but we are also setting
:08:59. > :09:03.out some of the things an SNP government would do, if elected A
:09:04. > :09:06.decision on what the first government of an independent
:09:07. > :09:11.Scotland would be would not be taken in the referendum, that decision
:09:12. > :09:15.would be taken in the 2016 election. And all of the parties will put
:09:16. > :09:19.forward their offers to the electorate. We are setting out some
:09:20. > :09:23.of the things which we think it is important to be prioritised. These
:09:24. > :09:28.are things which have a lot of support in Scotland. We see the pain
:09:29. > :09:32.being felt by people because of the rising cost of energy bills, there
:09:33. > :09:36.is widespread opposition to some of the welfare cuts. So, we are setting
:09:37. > :09:39.out the options which are open to Scotland, but only open to Scotland
:09:40. > :09:47.if we have the powers of independence. Given that you seem to
:09:48. > :09:51.be promising aid permanent socialist near Varna, if Scotland is
:09:52. > :09:54.independent, if you are right of centre in Scotland, and I understand
:09:55. > :09:59.that is a minority pursuit where you are, but it would be a big mistake
:10:00. > :10:05.to vote for independence, in that case, wouldn't it? No, because the
:10:06. > :10:10.whole point of independence is that people get the country they want,
:10:11. > :10:14.and the government a vote for. So, right of centre people should not
:10:15. > :10:18.vote for independence? No, because people who are of that political
:10:19. > :10:22.persuasion in Scotland get the opportunity to vote for parties
:10:23. > :10:26.which represent that persuasion and if they can persuade a majority to
:10:27. > :10:30.vote likewise, then they will get a government which reflects that. That
:10:31. > :10:34.is the essence of independence. Right now, we have a Westminster
:10:35. > :10:37.government which most people in Scotland rejected at the last
:10:38. > :10:42.general election. That is hardly democratic. It is right and proper
:10:43. > :10:45.that the SNP, as the current government, points out the
:10:46. > :11:01.opportunities that would be opening up. Can I just clarify one thing,
:11:02. > :11:08.when we spoke on The Daily Politics earlier last week, you made it clear
:11:09. > :11:12.to me that Alex Salmond, we know he wants to debate with David Cameron,
:11:13. > :11:22.but you made it clear to me that he would debate with Alistair Darling
:11:23. > :11:25.as well, and Mr Carmichael... He made it clear yesterday. Well, he
:11:26. > :11:29.said to the BBC this morning that he would only debate with these people
:11:30. > :11:34.after he had had a debate with Mr Cameron, so who is right? I was
:11:35. > :11:38.making the point last week, and Alex Salmond was making it yesterday and
:11:39. > :11:42.this morning - let's have that agreement by David Cameron to come
:11:43. > :11:48.and debate with Alex Salmond, and then Alex Salmond, just like me
:11:49. > :11:52.will debate with allcomers. So if he does not get the David Cameron
:11:53. > :11:57.debate, then he will not do the others, is that right? Let's focus
:11:58. > :12:05.on is wading David Cameron to do the right thing. So, in other words he
:12:06. > :12:11.will not debate, yes or no? Members of the SNP government... We know
:12:12. > :12:17.that, but what about Alex Salmond? He said yesterday, we will debate
:12:18. > :12:20.with all sorts of people, including the people you have spoken about,
:12:21. > :12:39.but David Cameron should not be let off the hook just putting aside the
:12:40. > :12:44.independence issue, energy prices are now even playing into the SNP,
:12:45. > :12:51.so every political party has to do something about energy prices. Yes,
:12:52. > :12:54.it is clearly it is interesting is the difference between the SNP and
:12:55. > :12:58.the Labour approach. Ed Miliband electrified the party conference
:12:59. > :13:02.season when he said he would freeze energy prices for 20 months,
:13:03. > :13:07.seemingly having an amazing control over the energy market, where we
:13:08. > :13:11.know that essentially what pushes prices up the wholesale prices on
:13:12. > :13:16.world market. What Nicola Sturgeon is talking about is actually saying,
:13:17. > :13:20.this amount is added to your bills for green levies, and we are going
:13:21. > :13:25.to take them off your bills and they will be paid out of general taxation
:13:26. > :13:28.in an independent Scotland. That is a credible government, making a
:13:29. > :13:33.credible case, very different to what Labour is saying, although
:13:34. > :13:37.playing to the same agenda. So, Labour has got a populist policy,
:13:38. > :13:42.the SNP has also got a populist policy, the one group of people that
:13:43. > :13:51.do not have a decent response to this is the coalition? Exactly. What
:13:52. > :13:55.the SNP also have is a magic money pot, so that speech yesterday, you
:13:56. > :14:00.are right, it was very left wing, social democratic, but there was
:14:01. > :14:04.none of the icing like Labour has been talking about, with fiscal
:14:05. > :14:08.responsibility. I think that is the difference between the two. We know
:14:09. > :14:12.what the Tories would really like to do, all of these green levies which
:14:13. > :14:16.were put on our bills in the good times, when they were going to be
:14:17. > :14:23.the greenest party ever, the Tories would like to say, let's just wipe
:14:24. > :14:29.out some of them, put the rest on to some general government spending,
:14:30. > :14:34.but they have a problem, which is in the Department of Energy and Climate
:14:35. > :14:40.Change. Not only that, they really are stuck now. But there is
:14:41. > :14:46.something in the free schools debate this morning, the parties are now
:14:47. > :14:50.determined to send a message to their potential voters at the next
:14:51. > :14:54.election, that they are trying to fight their coalition partners. Do
:14:55. > :14:58.not expected any change in coalition policy or free schools policy before
:14:59. > :15:02.the election, but we can expect to hear the parties try to pretend that
:15:03. > :15:07.they are taking on their coalition partners. Mr Clegg has said, we
:15:08. > :15:11.would put this free schools policy into our manifesto, so is it not
:15:12. > :15:15.possible that the Tories will say, if you give us an overall majority,
:15:16. > :15:19.we will cut your electricity bill because we will get rid of these
:15:20. > :15:23.green levies? I think that is entirely possible. The Tories know
:15:24. > :15:28.that they are stuck on this, they do not have a response to Ed Miliband.
:15:29. > :15:34.How much should ministers in Whitehall medal in local decisions
:15:35. > :15:37.across England? In opposition, David Cameron said he wanted a fundamental
:15:38. > :15:41.shift of power from Whitehall to local people. He said, when one size
:15:42. > :16:02.fits all solution is... Eric Pickles described it as "an
:16:03. > :16:07.historic shift of power". But the Communitites and Local Government
:16:08. > :16:10.Secretary can't stop meddling. In the past few months Mr Pickles has
:16:11. > :16:15.tried to ban councils from using CCTV cameras and "spy cars" to fine
:16:16. > :16:19.motorists... Told councils how to act quicker to shut down illegal
:16:20. > :16:23.travellers' sites... Criticised councils who want to raise council
:16:24. > :16:29.tax... Insisted councils release land to residents hoping to build
:16:30. > :16:34.their own property... And stated new homes should have a special built in
:16:35. > :16:36.bin storage section. It seems not a week goes by without a policy
:16:37. > :16:41.announcement from the hyper active Mr Pickles. So is the government
:16:42. > :16:46.still committed to localism, or is it all about centralism now?
:16:47. > :16:55.And Communities Secretary Eric Pickles joins me now for the Sunday
:16:56. > :17:03.Interview. Welcome. Nice to be here. You said
:17:04. > :17:13.in July you were going to give town halls the power to wreak their local
:17:14. > :17:19.magic. So why issue diktats from Westminster? It is not about giving
:17:20. > :17:27.power to local councils, it is going beyond that to local people. If
:17:28. > :17:32.local councils refuse to open up their books, we have to go straight
:17:33. > :17:38.to local people. You have attacked councillors using so-called spy
:17:39. > :17:43.cameras to enforce parking rules. Why is that your business? Because
:17:44. > :17:50.there is an injustice taking place. You cannot use fines to raise money
:17:51. > :17:59.and that is plainly happening. If you get yourself a ticket from a
:18:00. > :18:02.CCTV, it could be days or weeks before that lands on your doorstep
:18:03. > :18:08.and you have virtually no possibility to be able to defend
:18:09. > :18:12.yourself. But just leave it to people to vote out the council then.
:18:13. > :18:18.We are trying to enforce the law and it clearly states that you cannot
:18:19. > :18:25.use parking fines in order to fund general rate. So why are you not
:18:26. > :18:30.taking them to court if they are breaking the law? There have been a
:18:31. > :18:38.number of court cases taken by local residents. I am there to stand by
:18:39. > :18:44.local residents. Your even trying to micromanage, allowing motorist s to
:18:45. > :18:51.park for 15 minutes in local high street. Why is that your business?
:18:52. > :18:55.I'm trying to ensure that local authorities understand the
:18:56. > :19:02.importance of the town centre. If you look at all opinion polls, right
:19:03. > :19:06.now there is a five-minute leeway but there are many cases of people
:19:07. > :19:13.being jumped on by parking officials for quite trivial things. It is
:19:14. > :19:18.about saying, surely I can go and get a pint of milk. But a party that
:19:19. > :19:25.dines out on localism, that is a matter for local people, not the men
:19:26. > :19:31.in Whitehall. I have to be on the side of local people. That person
:19:32. > :19:37.who wants to go and get a pint of milk. Ultimately it is a matter for
:19:38. > :19:41.them. It is a matter for the council. But a little bit of
:19:42. > :19:47.criticism is not a bad thing. You have now declared war on the wheelie
:19:48. > :19:51.bin and suggested that new homes should have built in storage
:19:52. > :20:04.sections. You just cannot help meddling! I suppose that is
:20:05. > :20:12.possible. You are a meddler! I am in charge of building regulations and
:20:13. > :20:18.planning. So I may have some responsibility there. Another one,
:20:19. > :20:28.interfering in local planning decisions. A couple of places, you
:20:29. > :20:34.ruled in favour of developers. They want to build over 200 houses
:20:35. > :20:41.against the wishes of the parish and district councils. The local MP said
:20:42. > :20:49.the Secretary of State's decision runs roughshod over any concept of
:20:50. > :20:53.localism. Now I have to be a blushing violet because of course
:20:54. > :21:08.this is still potentially subject to judicial review. I have to act
:21:09. > :21:16.properly. And Apple went is entitled to justice. -- an applicant. A local
:21:17. > :21:21.authority has a duty to ensure that is adequate housing for people in
:21:22. > :21:26.their area. This was not a decision that I took as a personal decision,
:21:27. > :21:33.it was on the advice of an inspector. But you contradict what
:21:34. > :21:37.David Cameron himself said in 2 12, he spoke about a vision where we
:21:38. > :21:44.give communities much more say and local control. People in villages
:21:45. > :21:53.fear big housing estates being plonked from above. You have just
:21:54. > :22:02.done exactly that. After a proper quasi judicial enquiry. What we have
:22:03. > :22:10.is planning framework which local people can decide where it goes But
:22:11. > :22:15.they cannot say, nothing here. They have to have a five-year housing
:22:16. > :22:18.supply. Previous to this government decided exactly where houses would
:22:19. > :22:26.go, now local people can take the lead. Anna Silbury said because of
:22:27. > :22:31.the way your department rules, local authorities now have no alternative
:22:32. > :22:41.but to agree development on green belt land. I do not accept that I
:22:42. > :22:49.think around Nottingham there are particular problems with regards to
:22:50. > :23:00.the green belt. The matter has been referred back.
:23:01. > :23:00.the green belt. The matter has been want to see development on the green
:23:01. > :23:07.belt but on Brownfield site. We want to see underused land. But you have
:23:08. > :23:14.to remember why we have the green belt. Not
:23:15. > :23:14.to remember why we have the green nice, it is their to prevent
:23:15. > :23:19.conurbations bumping into one another. Your
:23:20. > :23:24.conurbations bumping into one is vocal about the need to deal
:23:25. > :23:24.what he calls the historic under provision of housing. Shelter says
:23:25. > :23:36.we need 250,000 new homes per year. provision of housing. Shelter says
:23:37. > :23:36.Houston statistics are getting there, but nowhere near that. -
:23:37. > :23:39.housing. You cannot there, but nowhere near that. -
:23:40. > :23:50.localism agenda as well as meeting housing demand. I do not accept
:23:51. > :23:58.that. We inherited a position where the lowest level of building since
:23:59. > :24:05.the 1920s was in place. But it has steadily improved. It does take a
:24:06. > :24:08.while. You cannot have a localism agenda where people call the shots
:24:09. > :24:14.on housing as well as meeting the housing demand. People have a duty
:24:15. > :24:19.to ensure that future generations have somewhere to live. You cannot
:24:20. > :24:26.pull up the drawbridge. There is nothing incompatible between that
:24:27. > :24:32.and localism. Because someone has to be the voice of those people who are
:24:33. > :24:39.going to live there and to make sure there is the proper amount. Plans
:24:40. > :24:44.now exist for more than 150,000 homes to be built on protected land,
:24:45. > :24:49.including the green belt. That will mean riding over local concerns
:24:50. > :24:53.Each application will be taken on its own merits. To suggest that
:24:54. > :24:58.there is an assault on the green belt is as far from the truth as you
:24:59. > :25:03.can imagine. Should Andrew Mitchell get his job back if the years
:25:04. > :25:08.exonerated? I would be honoured to sit with Andrew Mitchell in the
:25:09. > :25:14.Cabinet. I have always believed his version. But it is a matter for the
:25:15. > :25:18.Prime Minister who he has in government. He would have no problem
:25:19. > :25:25.in seeing him back in Cabinet? Absolutely not. Your mother answered
:25:26. > :25:31.Vulcan junior minister Nick balls said about the Royal Charter for the
:25:32. > :25:36.press, there's nothing we have done that troubles me as much as this. Is
:25:37. > :25:42.that your view? It is not. I accept the compromise agreement put
:25:43. > :25:48.together. If the press want to have an additional protection that the
:25:49. > :25:53.Royal Charter offers, then they can move into the system. But if they
:25:54. > :26:01.want to continue independently that is acceptable to me. But you
:26:02. > :26:05.previously echoed Thomas Jefferson, you said for a free society to
:26:06. > :26:12.operate the river of a free press has to flow without restriction
:26:13. > :26:18.That is what I said at the time We had to find a compromise. And that
:26:19. > :26:26.seems to me to be a better compromise. Let me just show you
:26:27. > :26:38.this little montage of pictures that we have. I could not be happier
:26:39. > :26:50.Then you are in the Desert and there you are in San Francisco. Then you
:26:51. > :27:01.are in the casino. That is my personal favourite. These students
:27:02. > :27:05.took a cardboard cutout of you and took it round the world with them.
:27:06. > :27:10.Did you ever think you would become a student icon? I always felt
:27:11. > :27:20.secretly that that might happen one day. But it came earlier in my
:27:21. > :27:27.career than I thought! Why would they do that? I think they thought I
:27:28. > :27:37.could do with a bit of an airing! I went to Norfolk earlier, but that
:27:38. > :27:39.looks better. Thank you. On Wednesday senior police folk
:27:40. > :27:44.including chief constables, will be questioned by MPs about what's
:27:45. > :27:47.become known as Plebgate. That's the incident in Downing Street last year
:27:48. > :27:49.which led to the resignation of the government chief whip Andrew
:27:50. > :27:51.Mitchell. Last week the Independent Police Complaints Commission
:27:52. > :27:56.questioned the "honesty and integrity" of police officers who
:27:57. > :27:59.met Mr Mitchell following the row. So do scandals like this affect
:28:00. > :28:06.public trust in the police? Here's Adam Fleming.
:28:07. > :28:12.It's a story of politics, the police, and CCTV. No, not Andrew
:28:13. > :28:18.Mitchell, but an MP's researcher called Alex Bryce and his partner
:28:19. > :28:22.Iain Feis. It started on a summer night in
:28:23. > :28:26.2011. They'd been in Parliament After a few words with a police
:28:27. > :28:31.officer, Ian was wrestled to the ground. Alex came to have a look and
:28:32. > :28:35.the same thing happened to him. Both were arrested and charged. These
:28:36. > :28:40.pictures emerged on day one of their trial. A trial that was halted
:28:41. > :28:50.because the police version of events just didn't match the footage. A lot
:28:51. > :28:55.of people with incidence like this which we experienced, people think
:28:56. > :28:59.there is no smoke without fire. So when we said we did nothing wrong,
:29:00. > :29:05.people would think police just would not do that. There is always that
:29:06. > :29:09.underlying view that some people have. I think that has been
:29:10. > :29:13.challenged and people who know us believe that. This year the Met
:29:14. > :29:20.apologised and paid compensation. And it's led to an unlikely sort of
:29:21. > :29:24.friendship. When the truth came out about the Andrew Mitchell story I
:29:25. > :29:30.actually sent him an e-mail to congratulate him about the truth
:29:31. > :29:33.coming out. He did send a reply acknowledging that. So where are we
:29:34. > :29:37.with THAT saga? Remember last September? Andrew Mitchell had a row
:29:38. > :29:41.with police at the gates of Downing Street about his bike. He lost his
:29:42. > :29:47.job as chief whip after accusations he called the officers plebs. That,
:29:48. > :29:50.he's always denied. This week the police watchdog the IPCC suggested
:29:51. > :29:56.that three officers may have lied about a meeting with him at the
:29:57. > :29:59.height of the scandal. Add that to the charge sheet of cases that
:30:00. > :30:05.haven't exactly flattered the police. Like the revelation of a
:30:06. > :30:08.cover up over Hillsborough. The prosecution of an officer from the
:30:09. > :30:13.Met over the death of Ian Tomlinson during protests in 2009. Along with
:30:14. > :30:19.news that undercover officers were told to smear the family of Stephen
:30:20. > :30:21.Lawrence. During Thursday's protest by teachers in Westminster the
:30:22. > :30:27.police operation was really, really relaxed. And recent scandals have
:30:28. > :30:31.done nothing to affect society's view of the boys and girls in blue -
:30:32. > :30:39.or should I say hi-vis. About 6 % of the public say they trust the
:30:40. > :30:40.police. And that's not budged since pollsters started measuring it 0
:30:41. > :30:53.years ago. Of course, in Britain, crime is
:30:54. > :30:58.down, so the perception might be that the police is doing a good
:30:59. > :31:02.job. And the rank-and-file recently seamed pretty chipper at this awards
:31:03. > :31:08.ceremony. Is it a good time to be a police officer? It is a good time.
:31:09. > :31:13.Despite all of the headlines? Still a good time. But speak to officers
:31:14. > :31:17.privately, and they say Plebgate is affecting how the public see them.
:31:18. > :31:21.Some of them also think politicians, the Tories especially,
:31:22. > :31:26.are enjoying that a little too much. Adam Fleming reporting there. Going
:31:27. > :31:35.head-to-head on this issue of trust in the police, a Sunday Mirror
:31:36. > :31:42.columnist and Peter Kirkham, former chief inspector. Peter Kirkham, let
:31:43. > :31:48.me come to you first. Plebgate, the cover-ups over John Charles De
:31:49. > :31:52.menace, the death of Ian Tomlinson, the industrial deception over
:31:53. > :31:56.Hillsborough, why is the culture of deceit so prevalent in the police? I
:31:57. > :32:00.do not agree there is a cultural deceit. These are all individual
:32:01. > :32:05.incidents which raise individual issues. I would suggest that your
:32:06. > :32:12.short headline summarising each of them has taken the most negative
:32:13. > :32:17.view of it. How can you be positive about the police's behaviour over
:32:18. > :32:21.Hillsborough? It remains to be seen with the inquiry but we are probably
:32:22. > :32:26.talking about a handful of senior officers, dealing with the
:32:27. > :32:34.paperwork. Well over 100 testimonies being doctored by the police. Well,
:32:35. > :32:38.those testimonies were true to start with, so the officers have told the
:32:39. > :32:45.truth, and they have been changed for some reason. By the police. By
:32:46. > :32:49.the police all lawyers we have got this thing that the police conflates
:32:50. > :32:58.everything. There are 43 forces there is ACPO, there is the College
:32:59. > :33:02.Of Policing... People say it was a handful of police officers, it
:33:03. > :33:07.wasn't, it was six senior police officers who were alleged to have
:33:08. > :33:11.doctored 106 D4 statements. Even today we are hearing that more than
:33:12. > :33:18.1000 officers are yet to be spoken to about Hillsborough. -- 164. Do we
:33:19. > :33:25.pretend that Hillsborough, and some of these examples, are the exception
:33:26. > :33:30.rather than the rule? What is the evidence that this is now prevalent
:33:31. > :33:33.in our police? I think there is a lot of evidence, and Plebgate is
:33:34. > :33:38.probably the thing which has clinched it. The public want to
:33:39. > :33:43.know, how deep does this girl? The audacity of a group of policemen who
:33:44. > :33:47.think they can set up a Cabinet minister. Five of those who were
:33:48. > :33:50.arrested and bailed still have not been charged. One of those officers
:33:51. > :33:54.actually wrote an e-mail pretending to be a member of the public. I do
:33:55. > :33:59.not see what the problem is in prosecuting them for that. Taking
:34:00. > :34:04.Plebgate, there are loads of different bits of that incident
:34:05. > :34:07.There is the officers on duty in Downing Street, the issue of who
:34:08. > :34:11.leaked the story to the Sun, there are the officers who claim to have
:34:12. > :34:14.been there who would appear not to have been there, and then we have
:34:15. > :34:17.got the West Midlands meeting issue, which has sort of been
:34:18. > :34:27.resolved this week. There has been misconduct. But at a lower level.
:34:28. > :34:31.But it is the audacity of an organisation which thinks it can
:34:32. > :34:34.take on an elected minister and destroy him for their own political
:34:35. > :34:39.purposes, at a time when the Government are cutting please pay,
:34:40. > :34:43.when they are freezing their pensions and reducing their numbers.
:34:44. > :34:46.It looks very much to all of us the public, that the police are at war
:34:47. > :34:50.with the government, and they are going to do anything they can to
:34:51. > :34:55.discredit the Government. The police would have every reason to be at war
:34:56. > :35:03.with the Government, because there if there is a crisis of trust.. But
:35:04. > :35:10.it looks like they fitted up a Cabinet minister. That remains to be
:35:11. > :35:15.seen, it is being investigated. We know that those Birmingham officers,
:35:16. > :35:20.they totally misrepresented to, if not lied outright, about what was
:35:21. > :35:23.said. Again, that is a misrepresentation of what happened.
:35:24. > :35:26.If you actually go and look at what is said, it is plain from the
:35:27. > :35:35.context, they were saying, he has told us nothing new. But he had in
:35:36. > :35:41.the transcript, it said he hadn t. He would not admit he had used the
:35:42. > :35:45.word pleb. He apologised profusely, he said it would never happen again,
:35:46. > :35:52.he said many things that he had not said before. I agree, which is
:35:53. > :35:55.presumably... Thereon many police forces in this country, they have
:35:56. > :36:01.one of the toughest jobs in the land, they end up getting involved
:36:02. > :36:07.in almost anything which happens in society, and there are obviously a
:36:08. > :36:12.number of difficult examples, but what is the evidence that it is out
:36:13. > :36:18.of hand, other than just several bad apples? This bad apples argument, we
:36:19. > :36:21.have some amazing police people thank God, but it is because of
:36:22. > :36:25.those that we have to root out the bad ones, the ones that are possibly
:36:26. > :36:29.standing, the ones who are being standing, the ones who are being
:36:30. > :36:31.not seem to be any process to deal not seem to be any process to deal
:36:32. > :36:33.with these people. The trouble with not seem to be any process to deal
:36:34. > :36:37.a rotten apple is that it spreads. not seem to be any process to deal
:36:38. > :36:40.It is not fair on the good cops to be tainted by this, and I think the
:36:41. > :36:48.police force, as an institution .. For all of us, we have to respect
:36:49. > :36:53.the police. There is a problem, is there not? People do worry that if
:36:54. > :36:59.you can fit up a Cabinet minister, you can fit up anybody... . I would
:37:00. > :37:03.disagree that anybody has proved that anybody has been fitted up We
:37:04. > :37:07.are yet to hear what happened at the gates of Downing Street. But what we
:37:08. > :37:14.do know about the gates of Downing Street is that we were told by the
:37:15. > :37:17.do know about the gates of Downing police officers that passers-by had
:37:18. > :37:27.heard this incredible row, where Mitchell's file went was bullied.
:37:28. > :37:33.That is not true... . They did not use those words, actually. All
:37:34. > :37:44.right, but it is clear that the Police Federation jumped on this as
:37:45. > :37:48.a politically motivated campaign... I have always said that politics
:37:49. > :37:52.should be kept out of policing. The federation, they cannot go on
:37:53. > :37:56.strike, but this was to covertly political, so I criticise them for
:37:57. > :38:03.that. Do we need a better way of monitoring the police? We need a
:38:04. > :38:08.more competent and properly resourced Independent police
:38:09. > :38:12.commission. But if you look at those Bravery Awards, every police
:38:13. > :38:19.officer, every year, who acts with bravery... That is the police force
:38:20. > :38:25.we want to believe in. That is the police force you have got. We will
:38:26. > :38:28.leave it there. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will be speaking
:38:29. > :38:41.to former Lib Minister Jeremy Browne. And in The
:38:42. > :38:48.local part of the show, for the North East and Cumbria.
:38:49. > :38:51.Coming up: The easy credit that it's claimed is pushing tens of thousands
:38:52. > :38:55.of people into ever`deeper debt. The Government is urged to take action `
:38:56. > :38:58.but are loan companies providing a valuable service in difficult times?
:38:59. > :39:01.My guests this week: the Labour MP for Bishop Auckland, Helen Goodman,
:39:02. > :39:04.and the North East Conservative Euro`MP, Martin Callanan.
:39:05. > :39:07.Now, it's been a week of bad news from our biggest councils, with more
:39:08. > :39:11.cuts to services and potentially thousands of job losses on the way.
:39:12. > :39:13.Durham revealed last week that the cuts it has to make by 2017 have
:39:14. > :39:20.risen to ?108 million. On Tuesday, Gateshead warned just
:39:21. > :39:23.over 400 jobs could go over the next two years as it tries to find ?45
:39:24. > :39:27.million. The next day, Middlesbrough Council revealed up to 1500 jobs
:39:28. > :39:31.were at risk, almost half of the remaining workforce. It needs to
:39:32. > :39:34.find ?67 million over three years. The week ended with the news that
:39:35. > :39:37.Cumbria County Council is also up against it, looking for savings of
:39:38. > :39:42.?80 million over the next three years, with 600 jobs at risk.
:39:43. > :39:46.The next few months will see those councils consulting with local
:39:47. > :39:49.people over which services to cut. In Gateshead, everything from
:39:50. > :39:53.leisure centres to support for the Baltic art gallery and Sage arts
:39:54. > :39:56.centre is under review. Council leader Mick Henry says the Local
:39:57. > :39:58.Government Secretary needs to realise the pressures councils are
:39:59. > :40:02.facing. My message to Eric Pickles is I
:40:03. > :40:06.would rather he spent less time making what I call one`liners,
:40:07. > :40:10.having a go at local Government. He is the Secretary of State for Local
:40:11. > :40:14.Government. He says he is in favour of localism but he seems to have a
:40:15. > :40:19.pop at me and other people whenever he gets a chance. I would ask him,
:40:20. > :40:21.next time he goes in the Cabinet and offers up more savings for his
:40:22. > :40:25.department, that he should think about asking for maybe less savings
:40:26. > :40:33.so that the people of Gateshead and elsewhere don't actually have their
:40:34. > :40:37.quality of life reduced. Martin Callan, I note you have said
:40:38. > :40:40.these cuts are caused by having to repay the debt of the last
:40:41. > :40:45.Government but local Government macro has taken a digger shared than
:40:46. > :40:51.other areas. How can you keep doing this queue Mac we are only going
:40:52. > :40:55.back to spending levels that they had five or six years ago. But we
:40:56. > :41:03.have two reduced the deficit inherited by Labour. Local
:41:04. > :41:09.government has to take its share of the cuts. What is interested is that
:41:10. > :41:13.the survey that the BBC did that show people 's belief in the quality
:41:14. > :41:18.of service is actually increasing. They think the services are getting
:41:19. > :41:21.better, which you would not think listening to make Henry. The problem
:41:22. > :41:26.is they have still got half of these cuts to go. Durham told me they were
:41:27. > :41:31.given one figure in the spring and Eric Pickles gave another one in the
:41:32. > :41:38.summer, which meant 120 million extra pounds in savings. You cannot
:41:39. > :41:43.plan for that. The Government tries to take into account views...
:41:44. > :41:47.Councils are just an easy target queue Mac all governments spending
:41:48. > :41:52.apart from the health service are subject to savings and reductions in
:41:53. > :42:01.spending. They have to do things more efficiently. The Labour Party
:42:02. > :42:06.left is with all these debts. Despite the cuts so far all councils
:42:07. > :42:09.have carried on delivering services, body art library and
:42:10. > :42:17.leisure centre most things remain open. Is it that bad? The cuts
:42:18. > :42:20.account to ?4 in every ?10 from central Government and as we have
:42:21. > :42:28.seen that is hundreds of millions. Also, the cuts are very unfair. So
:42:29. > :42:39.for example, in Durham, the cuts amount to ?275 per household but in
:42:40. > :42:45.Windsor, only ?87, and... Jerome was spending much more in the first
:42:46. > :42:49.place. Durham is more deprived and has higher needs. There is a real
:42:50. > :42:53.question about whether those services which they are obliged by
:42:54. > :42:58.law, such as children's services, such as looking after people, they
:42:59. > :43:06.will still be able to do. What would you have cut instead, though, in
:43:07. > :43:10.order to save these councils? The point I'm making is that if the cuts
:43:11. > :43:17.been distributed more fairly, then the north`east could have had...
:43:18. > :43:25.Southern councils will have struggled more. But we would have
:43:26. > :43:35.had ?94 million more to spend and we have greater need up here. Labour
:43:36. > :43:39.Party policy is just to borrow more money. Labour Party policy is that
:43:40. > :43:43.we stick with the overall totals. That does not mean that we would not
:43:44. > :43:51.redistribute within existing budgets. That is our policy. Martin
:43:52. > :43:55.Callanan, some people say that was going to be able to afford to do in
:43:56. > :44:04.the next few years is looked after older people and social services. Of
:44:05. > :44:10.course not. Helen has just contradicted the council leader we
:44:11. > :44:13.saw earlier. We should ask the question, which councils are going
:44:14. > :44:18.to gain and which are going to lose queue Mac it is easy to sit here in
:44:19. > :44:24.the North and say North councils will gain. The reality is, they have
:44:25. > :44:27.accepted the overall level of spending. ?NEWLINE Now, pay`day
:44:28. > :44:30.loans from the likes of Wonga have made plenty of headlines recently.
:44:31. > :44:33.But they're just the tip of the credit iceberg. Many more people use
:44:34. > :44:36."doorstep lenders" like Provident Financial. Then there's Brighthouse
:44:37. > :44:40.and similar businesses which offer everything from TVs to sofas on hire
:44:41. > :44:44.purchase. They all offer a service to those short of cash ` but it
:44:45. > :44:47.comes at a high price. Well, this week, charities and consumer groups
:44:48. > :44:50.launched a campaign to highlight what they describe as bad products
:44:51. > :44:53.and bad practices, which can leave families drowning in debt. I met
:44:54. > :44:58.Eleanor Eamens from Northumberland. She took up a high`interest loan but
:44:59. > :45:01.soon found she couldn't repay it. I started off with a ?100 loan from
:45:02. > :45:11.them and it was basically ?50 interest but at the time it was
:45:12. > :45:15.manageable. It was near Christmas I had decided to take it out. Then,
:45:16. > :45:21.basically, I was nearly paying that off and then I was offered another
:45:22. > :45:25.loan from them. At the end I think it was roughly six loans from them
:45:26. > :45:30.at the same time and at the end it was ?4000. Obviously, I feel they
:45:31. > :45:38.were irresponsible because I do not think the checks were in place to
:45:39. > :45:41.protect people. I say to a lot of people I take responsibility for
:45:42. > :45:45.what I did. I chose to borrow and somebody did not make me borrow the
:45:46. > :45:50.money. But when you are on a low income and you need that money, it
:45:51. > :45:54.is so tempting and they did not ever look on if you had other debts to
:45:55. > :46:02.pay. They did not look into what your whole income is and what you
:46:03. > :46:05.have got to pay out. So they did not have a clue whether you could afford
:46:06. > :46:08.it. Eleanor Eamens from Northumberland.
:46:09. > :46:12.Well, the companies who provide loans say they're offering a service
:46:13. > :46:15.to people who need money quickly. Julio Martino is from The Mint ` a
:46:16. > :46:18.Newcastle`based credit firm. It is important that businesses do
:46:19. > :46:22.not charge ridiculous interest rates, but we do have to charge an
:46:23. > :46:26.interest rate through which we make money. We are not a bank or a
:46:27. > :46:31.building society or a huge financial organisation, so we cannot charge
:46:32. > :46:34.APR similar to a credit card. We are essentially lending to people who
:46:35. > :46:38.cannot get credit cards, cannot get credit from a bank. They need to get
:46:39. > :46:41.credit elsewhere and there are companies like myself who are
:46:42. > :46:46.willing to take a slightly greater risk in some circumstances to lend
:46:47. > :46:49.to these people who do need credit. Well Durham University has been
:46:50. > :46:53.working with families on Teesside who have got into debt, in an effort
:46:54. > :46:56.to find out about the scale of the problem. Professor Sarah Banks
:46:57. > :47:05.directed the study and she's with me now. How typical was the experience
:47:06. > :47:16.of Eleanor that we saw there, in the families in Teeside queue `` in
:47:17. > :47:24.Teeside? Very typical. People were struggling to get by, taking out new
:47:25. > :47:27.loans to repay the interest on the existing loans. A third of our
:47:28. > :47:33.families had some kind of mental health problems. Many had other
:47:34. > :47:37.severe crises and problems, so it was exacerbating an already
:47:38. > :47:43.stressful life. Does this tell us anything we couldn't have guessed or
:47:44. > :47:46.knew already, that these loans are aimed at people on low incomes and
:47:47. > :47:50.if they do not manage them properly they get into Robbins? I think we
:47:51. > :47:59.knew that but this shows graphically what it does to people's lives. The
:48:00. > :48:03.longer people have the loans the more difficult it is to get free as
:48:04. > :48:07.they would wish. We are studying how people get into debt but also asking
:48:08. > :48:12.people if they wanted a mental to help them sort out their finances,
:48:13. > :48:15.to break away from the high cost credit and to consider using
:48:16. > :48:24.low`cost alternatives like credit unions. What should policymakers do
:48:25. > :48:27.about this? It is a big thing to suddenly expect the credit unions to
:48:28. > :48:33.take up the millions of pounds of loans that go through these
:48:34. > :48:37.companies. It will be quite a long process. There is a credit union
:48:38. > :48:40.modernisation process but it will take quite a long time for credit
:48:41. > :48:45.unions to compete with the likes of Wonga. It has been shown in other
:48:46. > :48:55.countries, particularly in some states in the USA that a can be put
:48:56. > :48:59.on the total cost of credit. It can be 10% of the total amount borrowed.
:49:00. > :49:03.There can be restrictions on the rollovers on the financing and still
:49:04. > :49:06.you find that payday loan companies can still operate. They have less
:49:07. > :49:12.defaults on their loans and are still able to make some kind of
:49:13. > :49:17.profit. So I think he put like the guy from The Mint could still
:49:18. > :49:20.operate but people like Eleanor would not be preyed upon and would
:49:21. > :49:27.not have to take out too many loans that they are not able to repay.
:49:28. > :49:34.Labour have set out what they would do this week. Tellers. It has two
:49:35. > :49:38.parts. It has controlling the existing payday lenders by putting a
:49:39. > :49:45.cap on the overall cost of credit and then it has got a positive part
:49:46. > :49:52.which is putting a levy on them and recycling ?30 million to support
:49:53. > :49:55.credit unions `` ?13 million. So it is control and support for all times
:49:56. > :50:00.tips and I think that is reasonable. We will come back to that. Martin
:50:01. > :50:09.Callanan, this is more than the Government is offering. A few
:50:10. > :50:12.reforms, basically? Not at all. We are spending three times as much on
:50:13. > :50:18.credit unions. The overall approach I agree with. We are setting up the
:50:19. > :50:24.National Conduct Authority which will have the power to the overall
:50:25. > :50:27.cost of credit, reduce rollovers and promote responsible advertising and
:50:28. > :50:31.lending. That this is not a new problem in the north`east. We have
:50:32. > :50:41.had problems with loans for many years. These people deny they are
:50:42. > :50:46.loan sharks. They are operating legally. Are these companies we are
:50:47. > :50:55.talking about issuing a valid business model, or exploiting poor
:50:56. > :51:02.and vulnerable people? I do not think they are exploiting people.
:51:03. > :51:06.People need to have the information given, with responsible advertising.
:51:07. > :51:11.The products need to be promoted fashionably and responsibly to them.
:51:12. > :51:15.I am not in favour of banning them, because they do provide a valuable
:51:16. > :51:26.service. Would you prefer to force these companies out of business
:51:27. > :51:30.queue `` out of business? What Martin has just said is wrong. It
:51:31. > :51:33.was Archbishop Welby who forced the change in law on the Government and
:51:34. > :51:42.the Government have not yet said they will leak use the law to make
:51:43. > :51:46.that. We would do that. Labour had 13 years in power when they did
:51:47. > :51:50.nothing about this. As a matter of fact, there are twice as many people
:51:51. > :51:59.going to payday lenders now than they were five years ago. The
:52:00. > :52:05.industry has doubled. The scale of it is completely new. Cut to the
:52:06. > :52:07.chase on your policy. To develop credit unions. Given how much
:52:08. > :52:13.business there is, you were never going to be able to replace these
:52:14. > :52:17.companies with Reddit unions. It is unrealistic. I agree that credit
:52:18. > :52:22.unions cannot be the whole answer and we do need the banks to be more
:52:23. > :52:25.responsible. I was very disappointed when HSBC closed a branch in my
:52:26. > :52:29.constituency and would not support the local credit union. I also think
:52:30. > :52:35.we need to look at the behaviour of the big banks. Martin, we accept
:52:36. > :52:39.that a lot of the people taking these loans are doing it because the
:52:40. > :52:44.banks do not want to know and something about that has to change
:52:45. > :52:47.as well? If you do not have a regular income the banks are not
:52:48. > :52:52.interested in lending to you and that is why we have a problem in the
:52:53. > :52:57.north`east. It is very hard. You cannot force banks... Banks got
:52:58. > :53:01.themselves into a lot of trouble with irresponsible lending. It is
:53:02. > :53:06.not right for politicians to intervene and force them into more
:53:07. > :53:10.responsible lending. It is different parts of the market. The banks are
:53:11. > :53:18.interested in eager loans, the businesses to householders, etc.
:53:19. > :53:23.Well, they are not even doing that! The banks cannot win because they
:53:24. > :53:26.are being forced to build up their balances... That is probably a
:53:27. > :53:30.discussion for another day. Bad for pupils and bad for parents `
:53:31. > :53:33.that was the view of Education Minister David Laws on this week's
:53:34. > :53:36.teachers' strike which disrupted hundreds of schools across Cumbria
:53:37. > :53:38.and the North East. He said plans to introduce performance`related pay
:53:39. > :53:41.and adjust pensions would not change. Teachers, though, are
:53:42. > :53:45.determined to fight on. Luke Walton met two on the education front line
:53:46. > :53:48.with very different views about this week's strike and the issues behind
:53:49. > :53:52.it. My name is Elizabeth Thompson and
:53:53. > :53:56.I'm taking strike action today due to the constant erosion of teachers
:53:57. > :54:00.past might pay conditions. It is not a decision I have taken lightly and
:54:01. > :54:08.I hope we can get parental support acres with `` because what we want
:54:09. > :54:13.to do is achieve the best education for young people. My name is Graeme
:54:14. > :54:17.Murray and I disagree with the strike because we should not
:54:18. > :54:25.interfere with our students pass Mac education. Two teachers, two
:54:26. > :54:31.opposing views on the strike. At this union rally in Durham the talk
:54:32. > :54:34.was of a two`year pay freeze and intolerable work load. So it's life
:54:35. > :54:42.in the classroom really getting worse? There is constant paperwork
:54:43. > :54:46.to prove you are doing your job properly, rather than leaving you
:54:47. > :54:52.alone to do your job opening. Long hours. Michael Gove said recently he
:54:53. > :54:58.wants to get rid of teachers who leave school at 3:05pm. I do not
:54:59. > :55:03.know any teachers who are not there until 5pm or 6pm and we bring work
:55:04. > :55:08.home as well. Because we do have things like the holidays, we do use
:55:09. > :55:13.a lot of those holidays to get work done. I speak for myself and the
:55:14. > :55:17.start of the school here in general. But you do have the flexibility of
:55:18. > :55:25.perhaps when you would do that work at times and when you wouldn't, when
:55:26. > :55:29.you can have some downtime. So the perks far outweigh negatives. At the
:55:30. > :55:34.core of the dispute, Government plans for more formers related pay
:55:35. > :55:39.and to overhaul pensions. Ministers say talented teachers would be
:55:40. > :55:46.better rewarded and the system made more affordable but again, the
:55:47. > :55:50.profession's opinion is divided. The schools are being driven towards
:55:51. > :55:54.making profit, especially in academies, so they will try to save
:55:55. > :56:03.many white Lovering teachers past might pay. Regarding the pensions,
:56:04. > :56:07.the pensions we are paying more every month towards our pension. New
:56:08. > :56:11.teachers now have two work until they are 68 years old and will get
:56:12. > :56:18.less at the end of it. Who wants to be teaching at 68 years old?
:56:19. > :56:22.Performance related pay is in principle a good thing because it is
:56:23. > :56:28.good to reward achievement, success, and I do not think it is good to
:56:29. > :56:31.reward underachievement. If there is underachievement you look into it
:56:32. > :56:35.and see if there is something we can do to help the individuals who have
:56:36. > :56:39.underachieved. But in terms of the pension scheme also, teachers pass
:56:40. > :56:44.Mac pension schemes are renowned for being very good. They are still very
:56:45. > :56:50.good. Things have changed slightly but if you look at it, the package
:56:51. > :56:59.itself is a very attractive one. Martin Callanan, is the strike right
:57:00. > :57:03.or wrong? It is wrong. They should be in the classroom educating
:57:04. > :57:12.pupils. It is inconvenient for students and parents. Helen? It is
:57:13. > :57:15.very regrettable and we see here people disagreeing so it is
:57:16. > :57:21.obviously a very hard decision for these teachers to make. Do you have
:57:22. > :57:25.sympathy with that decision? I do because we should think of education
:57:26. > :57:37.as an investment in the future and I think well rewarded teachers benefit
:57:38. > :57:43.our pupils. Is some blame laid at the Government 's door because of
:57:44. > :57:51.the changes to terms and conditions? This is giving head
:57:52. > :57:56.teachers the power to pay good teachers more, in performance
:57:57. > :57:59.related pay. There are reforms to the pension system but teachers will
:58:00. > :58:04.still have a much better pension than probably everybody in the
:58:05. > :58:09.private sector. Three quarters of parents in a poll I have seen think
:58:10. > :58:15.it is a good idea to pay the best teachers the most money. Are they
:58:16. > :58:18.right? There is a good case for performance related pay but there is
:58:19. > :58:23.a problem with regional pay, which the Government have also good on the
:58:24. > :58:27.agenda, which means teachers in our area would be paid less. And I can
:58:28. > :58:32.understand why the teachers are concerned about the pensions,
:58:33. > :58:35.because, obviously, if you have committed your life to doing
:58:36. > :58:40.something and suddenly you find your pension arrangements being changed,
:58:41. > :58:46.you have sunk your life into this and you do not have much left...
:58:47. > :58:49.Welcome to the real world, isn't it? Lots of people in the private and
:58:50. > :58:54.public sector have had to accept that there tension cannot be as
:58:55. > :58:58.valuable as it was because we have an ageing population and cannot
:58:59. > :59:02.afford it. Everybody also knows that the level of pay and pensions have
:59:03. > :59:06.to be looked at together. If you compare the pay of teachers and the
:59:07. > :59:11.pay of doctors, you can see that the teachers have got a reasonable point
:59:12. > :59:18.here. Martin Gove wants to attract the best people into teaching.
:59:19. > :59:23.Making them work until 68, cutting their pensions, that is not the best
:59:24. > :59:29.way, is it? I think it is still an attractive proposition for new
:59:30. > :59:34.graduates. Teachers are relatively well`paid compared to the private
:59:35. > :59:39.sector. The best ones, who put in the extra others, can be paid more.
:59:40. > :59:49.What if you are paying teachers less in North Tyneside band Norfolk, for
:59:50. > :59:53.example? Is that acceptable? It probably is. It is a cheaper cost of
:59:54. > :00:00.living. I am in favour of giving schools and head teachers the
:00:01. > :00:03.flexibility. Thank you very much. Now, what else has been going on in
:00:04. > :00:08.the wonderful world of politics? Here's a few of the stories making
:00:09. > :00:11.the news ` all in 60 Seconds. The Government has been asked to
:00:12. > :00:15.take control of children's services in Cumbria after it was named as one
:00:16. > :00:18.of the worst 20 authorities for child protection in England.
:00:19. > :00:22.Westmorland and Lonsdale MP Tim Farron said children's lives were at
:00:23. > :00:26.stake. Where to bury nuclear waste? It's
:00:27. > :00:29.the question that never seems to get an answer. In January, Cumbria
:00:30. > :00:32.County Council voted to withdraw from the search for a site, but
:00:33. > :00:35.Copeland Borough Council still wants to be considered. This week,
:00:36. > :00:37.councils met to discuss their response to the Government's latest
:00:38. > :00:39.consultation. Labour peer Lord Adonis has
:00:40. > :00:43.officially opened a contraversial new academy school. It was opposed
:00:44. > :00:47.by his own party's councillors in North Tyneside. The former education
:00:48. > :00:53.minister opened the King's Priory in Tyneland. It is excellent that
:00:54. > :00:56.King's Priory has become an academy, bringing the best of private
:00:57. > :00:57.education into the state system with no fees.
:00:58. > :01:01.Meanwhile, teams of Ofsted inspectors spent the week at 17
:01:02. > :01:04.schools in Northumberland. They want to find out why attainment for
:01:05. > :01:12.children eligible for free school meals is falling below other parts
:01:13. > :01:16.of the country. And that's about it from us. Next
:01:17. > :01:20.week, we'll have a special report looking at what businesses ` and MPs
:01:21. > :01:24.` in the region think of High Speed two. In the meantime, there's more
:01:25. > :01:26.about the problems of debt on my blog ` just go to
:01:27. > :01:30.bbc.co.uk/richardmoss. Or you can always join the conversation on
:01:31. > :01:32.Twitter. For now it's back to Andrew for the rest of the
:01:33. > :01:35.which links in with this. Thank you to both of you for being my guests
:01:36. > :01:50.today. Are the Lib Dems like a wonky
:01:51. > :01:56.shopping trolley? Why is Nick Clegg kicking off over free schools? And
:01:57. > :02:02.what about Boris and George's love bombing of China? All questions for
:02:03. > :02:06.The Week Ahead. We are joined now by the former Home Office minister and
:02:07. > :02:15.Liberal Democrat MP Jeremy Browne. Jeremy Browne, let me ask you this
:02:16. > :02:18.key question - ??GAPNEXT who is in the ascendancy in your party, those
:02:19. > :02:24.who would fear to the left, or those who would fear to the centre? The
:02:25. > :02:30.point I was making in the interview that I gave to the times was that I
:02:31. > :02:41.want us to be unambiguously and on up genetically -- and
:02:42. > :02:45.unapologetically a Liberal party. I do not want us to be craving the
:02:46. > :02:49.approval of columnists like Polly Toynbee. I do not want us to be a
:02:50. > :02:54.pale imitation of the Labour Party. I think we should be proud and
:02:55. > :02:59.unambiguously a authentic Liberal party. That is my ambition for the
:03:00. > :03:03.party. If it is, as you put it, fearing to the left, then I think
:03:04. > :03:09.that is a mistake, I think we should be on the liberal centre ground But
:03:10. > :03:13.is it actually veering to the left, your party? I think there is a
:03:14. > :03:19.danger when a party, or any organisation, feels that it is in a
:03:20. > :03:27.difficult position, to look inwards, to look for reassuring
:03:28. > :03:31.familiar policy positions. I do not want us to be the party which looks
:03:32. > :03:35.inwards and speaks to the 9% of people who are minded to support us
:03:36. > :03:39.already. I want us to look outwards and speak to the 91% of the
:03:40. > :03:42.population, for whom I think we have got a good story to tell about the
:03:43. > :03:47.contribution we have made to getting the deficit down, cutting crime
:03:48. > :03:51.keeping interest rates low, and also, distinctive Liberal Democrat
:03:52. > :03:56.policies for example on income tax and pupil premiums. If we look like
:03:57. > :04:00.we are a party which is uneasy and ambivalent about our role in
:04:01. > :04:03.government, people will not give us credit for the successes of the
:04:04. > :04:06.government, and we will not be able to claim the authorship which we
:04:07. > :04:10.should be able to claim for our policies excesses in government I
:04:11. > :04:17.want us to be confident, outward looking, and authentically liberal.
:04:18. > :04:21.If we are that, people real sense that and they will respond
:04:22. > :04:25.positively. Does that not therefore make it rather strange that Nick
:04:26. > :04:31.Craig should choose to distance himself from the coalition's schools
:04:32. > :04:41.policy? Well, I support free schools, I think they are a liberal
:04:42. > :04:45.policy. Education is a fascinating area, so let's explore it a bit We
:04:46. > :04:50.have had two very significant and troubling reports in the last
:04:51. > :04:52.fortnight, one from Alan Milburn, saying that social mobility has
:04:53. > :04:56.stalled in this country, in other words, what your parents do is a
:04:57. > :05:01.reliable guide to how you will get on in life and the other saying that
:05:02. > :05:04.Britain lags behind our competitors, the other
:05:05. > :05:08.industrialised countries, in terms of the educational attainment of
:05:09. > :05:12.15-year-olds. Both of those are worrying. We have a scandalous
:05:13. > :05:14.situation in this country where two thirds of children from
:05:15. > :05:25.disadvantaged backgrounds are failing to get five Grade A to Grade
:05:26. > :05:28.C. Some get none at all. If we were the world leaders in education, we
:05:29. > :05:31.could have an interesting conversation about how we are able
:05:32. > :05:35.to maintain that position, but we are not. Whether there are good
:05:36. > :05:39.things one less good things which have happened in our schools over
:05:40. > :05:44.the last 30-40 years, we really need to raise our game and stop letting
:05:45. > :05:46.young people down who need a good quality education in order to
:05:47. > :05:53.realise their full potential in life. It sounds like you do not
:05:54. > :05:58.share Mr Clegg's designations? I think there are two big dangers for
:05:59. > :06:03.us as a party. I do not think we should be instinctively statist and
:06:04. > :06:07.I do not think either we should be instinctively in favour of the
:06:08. > :06:12.status quo. I want us to have a restless, radical, energetic,
:06:13. > :06:15.liberal reforming instinct, which is about putting more power and
:06:16. > :06:20.responsible at the end opportunity in the hands of individual people.
:06:21. > :06:23.As I say, we look at the education system, of course there are good
:06:24. > :06:27.teachers and good outcomes in some schools and for some pupils,
:06:28. > :06:31.overall, our performance in this country is not good enough, so the
:06:32. > :06:44.status quo has not been a successful stop I am interested in how we can
:06:45. > :06:50.innovate. -- has not been a success. Are the Tories wooing you? Well I
:06:51. > :06:57.do not know if that is the right word, I have been reported, and I
:06:58. > :07:01.have set myself, that the Conservatives have, if you like
:07:02. > :07:06.made some advances or generous suggestions to me, but I am a
:07:07. > :07:09.liberal, and I am a Liberal Democrat. I have been a member of
:07:10. > :07:13.the Lib Dems since the party was founded, I joined when I was 18
:07:14. > :07:18.years old. I have campaigned tirelessly for the Liberal Democrats
:07:19. > :07:21.for my entire adult life, so I am not about to go and join another
:07:22. > :07:29.political party. I would turn this on its head, let me put it like
:07:30. > :07:31.this, I think there are quite a few liberals in the other political
:07:32. > :07:36.parties, people like Alan Milburn, who wrote a report on social
:07:37. > :07:40.mobility, people like Nick Bowles in the Conservative Party. Our
:07:41. > :07:43.ambition, as Liberal Democrats, should be to attract liberals from
:07:44. > :07:55.other political parties, and no political party, to the Lib Dems.
:07:56. > :07:57.Just briefly, have you suggested that the Tories do not run a
:07:58. > :08:04.candidate against you in the next election? I have not suggested
:08:05. > :08:06.anything of the sort. The Conservatives have to make their own
:08:07. > :08:12.decisions about which candidates they select, and I will take on
:08:13. > :08:25.whoever is select it from each of the political parties. Thank you for
:08:26. > :08:29.joining us. There is a danger not from Jeremy Browne, but from Mr
:08:30. > :08:33.Clegg, in that, having been part of a coalition which has gone through
:08:34. > :08:37.an enormous squeeze in living standards for three years, it did
:08:38. > :08:41.not look like both was coming, it was being regarded overall as a
:08:42. > :08:46.failure, but now, it may be turning the corner, so why would you then
:08:47. > :08:53.start to disassociate yourself from the coalition's policies? Yes, the
:08:54. > :08:56.danger for Nick Clegg is that he makes the Liberal Democrats looked
:08:57. > :09:00.like visitors in a guesthouse, a guesthouse which is owned by the
:09:01. > :09:03.Conservatives. As you say, they were there for the three difficult years,
:09:04. > :09:07.and just at the moment when the economy seems to be coming right,
:09:08. > :09:12.and we are getting some nice growth, they seek to distance themselves. It
:09:13. > :09:16.is interesting that Jeremy Browne came out with the outrageously
:09:17. > :09:19.disloyal statement that he supported free schools statement. That is a
:09:20. > :09:24.disloyal Liberal Democrat view, but on Thursday, of course, the Liberal
:09:25. > :09:27.Democrat party was in favour of free schools, because in that statement
:09:28. > :09:31.about the Al-Madinah school, David Laws made a passionate defence about
:09:32. > :09:38.what Nick Clegg is now criticising, which is having on qualified
:09:39. > :09:43.teachers. If things are now coming right, the big risk for the Liberal
:09:44. > :09:48.Democrats always was that they would not get the credit anyway. Well if
:09:49. > :09:54.they diss associate themselves like this, they definitely will not get
:09:55. > :09:58.the credit. It depends which voters their opinion poll ratings are dire,
:09:59. > :10:02.he spoke about 9%, and sometimes it is less than that. So, where are
:10:03. > :10:08.they going to get those voters from? They have not got those
:10:09. > :10:12.anti-Iraq war voters. Is it not Mission impossible, getting Labour
:10:13. > :10:18.voters test surely the left of the Lib Dem vote is peeling off towards
:10:19. > :10:26.labour, not away from Labour? I wonder to what extent, and this
:10:27. > :10:30.might be speculation, this might be organised and arranged, that Cameron
:10:31. > :10:34.and Clegg both understand that they have groups of voters that they need
:10:35. > :10:39.to get, so they need to send messages out to different groups, it
:10:40. > :10:50.looks like a bit of a setup to me. Boris in China, along with boy
:10:51. > :10:55.George - let's have a look... Who, according to JK Rowling, was Harry
:10:56. > :11:01.Potter's first girlfriend? That s right, and she is Chinese overseas
:11:02. > :11:08.student, is that not right at Hogwarts? Actually, we are not sure
:11:09. > :11:12.it is right, she is actually from Scotland. It is not only London
:11:13. > :11:18.which has a diverse society. Putting that to one side, we are inviting
:11:19. > :11:23.the Chinese into finance our power stations, to run big banks in the
:11:24. > :11:27.cities, we are giving out more visas to them, are we right to embrace the
:11:28. > :11:32.Dragon? What worries me about the power stations then, it is 30% of
:11:33. > :11:37.investment, and it reminds me a lot of PFI, the idea that you do not
:11:38. > :11:40.want a huge investment on your balance sheet, but if somebody bails
:11:41. > :11:48.out halfway through, we cannot stop with a half finished power station.
:11:49. > :11:55.It is EDF, the French company, which will actually build it, and we will
:11:56. > :11:59.be guaranteeing the debt for them. It is extraordinary that there has
:12:00. > :12:04.been so little adverse comment after George Osborne and Boris's trip to
:12:05. > :12:13.China, and is it now really the UK Government policy, to sell Britain
:12:14. > :12:17.to the Chinese? There was a debate in government about this, as they
:12:18. > :12:21.were getting ready for the trip and there will be at some point in the
:12:22. > :12:24.next six months be a David Cameron trip to China. He has had to wait
:12:25. > :12:28.three years because they were annoyed about him meeting the Dalai
:12:29. > :12:32.llama. There were some people in the Foreign Office who were saying,
:12:33. > :12:38.fine, but tread carefully. George Osborne's view is absolutely not,
:12:39. > :12:46.get in there, I do not care about any of these problems, get stuck
:12:47. > :12:50.in. I think he is storing up five years since the financial crisis,
:12:51. > :12:54.Chinese banks are being given a special, light touch regulatory
:12:55. > :13:03.regime. What could possibly go wrong?! There is lots to see. Energy
:13:04. > :13:11.prices have continued to dominate this week. We have got the EDF deal,
:13:12. > :13:14.whereby we are going to be giving them twice the market rate for their
:13:15. > :13:23.energy. But for the coalition, all eyes are on the GDP figures. The
:13:24. > :13:25.expectation and hope is that the recovery will be stronger than the
:13:26. > :13:32.figures have suggested so far, on which basis it can influence the
:13:33. > :13:37.result of the next general election. The chief economist at the
:13:38. > :13:40.Bank of England was saying on Twitter last week that the Bank of
:13:41. > :13:44.England may now bring forward the assessment when it says, maybe we
:13:45. > :13:49.are going to have to change monetary policy, if unemployment goes below
:13:50. > :13:58.7%. And we know what that means interest rates. The Bank of England
:13:59. > :14:02.on Twitter! That is it for today. The Daily Politics is back tomorrow
:14:03. > :14:05.on BBC Two. I will be back with prime Minster 's questions on
:14:06. > :14:07.Wednesday, and of course, we will be back at 11 o'clock on BBC One next
:14:08. > :14:14.Sunday.