:00:36. > :00:41.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:42. > :00:44.Labour's been hit hard by scandals at the Co-op. Ed Miliband says the
:00:45. > :00:47.Tories are mudslinging. We'll speak to Conservative Chairman Grant
:00:48. > :00:50.Shapps. Five years on from the financial
:00:51. > :00:53.crisis, and we're still talking about banks in trouble. Why haven't
:00:54. > :00:55.the regulators got the message? We'll ask the man who runs the
:00:56. > :01:00.City's new financial watchdog. We'll ask the man who runs the
:01:01. > :01:03.And he used to have a windmill on his roof and talked about giving
:01:04. > :01:09.hugs to hoodies and huskies. These days, not so much. Has the plan to
:01:10. > :01:18.And here: 600 jobs go at Middlesbrough Council. We
:01:19. > :01:27.homelessness and population ships. What is the evidence?
:01:28. > :01:32.And as always, the political panel that reaches the parts other shows
:01:33. > :01:35.can only dream of. Janan Ganesh Helen Lewis and Nick Watt. They ll
:01:36. > :01:40.be tweeting faster than England loses wickets to Australia. Yes
:01:41. > :01:43.they're really that fast. First, some big news overnight from
:01:44. > :01:46.Geneva, where Iran has agreed to curb some of its nuclear activities
:01:47. > :01:50.in return for the partial easing of sanctions. Iran will pause the
:01:51. > :02:00.enrichment of uranium to weapons grade and America will free up some
:02:01. > :02:04.funds for Iran to spend. May be up to $10 billion. A more comprehensive
:02:05. > :02:07.deal is supposed to be done in six months. Here's what President Obama
:02:08. > :02:15.had to say about this interim agreement. We have pursued intensive
:02:16. > :02:20.diplomacy, bilaterally with the Iranians, and together with our
:02:21. > :02:24.partners, the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Russia and China,
:02:25. > :02:30.as well as the European Union. Today, that diplomacy opened up a
:02:31. > :02:36.new path towards a world that is more secure, a future in which we
:02:37. > :02:42.can verify that Iraq and's nuclear programme is peaceful, and that it
:02:43. > :02:46.cannot build a nuclear weapon. President Obama spoke from the White
:02:47. > :02:52.House last night. Now the difficulty begins. This is meant to lead to a
:02:53. > :02:58.full-scale agreement which will effectively end all sanctions, and
:02:59. > :03:01.end Iran's ability to have a bomb. The early signs are pretty good The
:03:02. > :03:07.Iranian currency strengthened overnight, which is exactly what the
:03:08. > :03:14.Iranians wanted. Inflation in Iraq is 40%, so they need a stronger
:03:15. > :03:18.currency. -- information in Iran. France has played a blinder. It was
:03:19. > :03:22.there intransigence that led to this. Otherwise, I think the West
:03:23. > :03:28.would have led to a much softer deal. The question now becomes
:03:29. > :03:34.implementation. Here, everything hinges on two questions. First, who
:03:35. > :03:39.is Hassan Rouhani? Is he the Iranians Gorbachev, a serious
:03:40. > :03:45.reformer, or he's here much more tactical and cynical figure? Or
:03:46. > :03:48.within Iran, how powerful is he There are military men and
:03:49. > :03:55.intelligence officials within Iran who may stymie the process. The
:03:56. > :03:59.Western media concentrate on the fact that Mr Netanyahu and the
:04:00. > :04:05.Israelis are not happy about this. They don't often mention that the
:04:06. > :04:10.Arab Gulf states are also very apprehensive about this deal. I read
:04:11. > :04:20.this morning that the enemies of Qatar and Kuwait went to Saudi king.
:04:21. > :04:26.-- the MAs row. That is the key thing to watch in the next couple of
:04:27. > :04:30.weeks. There was a response from Saudi Arabia, but it came from the
:04:31. > :04:35.Prime Minister of Israel, who said this was a historic mistake. The
:04:36. > :04:39.United States said there would be no enrichment of uranium to weapons
:04:40. > :04:42.grade. In the last few minutes, the Iranian Foreign Minister has tweeted
:04:43. > :04:52.to say that there is an inalienable right -- right to enrich. The key
:04:53. > :04:57.thing is the most important thing that President Obama said in his
:04:58. > :05:01.inaugural speech. He reached out to Iran. It failed under President
:05:02. > :05:08.McKenna jab. Under President Rouhani, there seems to be progress.
:05:09. > :05:12.There is potentially now what he talked about in that first inaugural
:05:13. > :05:18.address potentially coming through. In the end, the key issue - and we
:05:19. > :05:23.don't know the answer - is the supreme leader, not the president.
:05:24. > :05:27.Will the supreme leader agreed to Iran giving up its ability to create
:05:28. > :05:33.nuclear weapons? This is the huge ambiguity. Ayatollah Khamenei
:05:34. > :05:39.authorise the position that President Rouhani took to Geneva.
:05:40. > :05:45.That doesn't mean he will sign off on every bit of implementation over
:05:46. > :05:50.the next six months. Even when President Ahmadinejad was president,
:05:51. > :05:56.he wasn't really President. We in the West have to resort to a kind of
:05:57. > :06:06.Iranians version of the study of the Kremlin, to work out what is going
:06:07. > :06:13.on. And the problem the president faces is that if there is any
:06:14. > :06:16.sign... He can unlock these funds by executive order at the moment, but
:06:17. > :06:21.if he needs any more, he has to go to Congress. Both the Democrat and
:06:22. > :06:29.the Republican side have huge scepticism about this. And he has
:06:30. > :06:33.very low credibility now. There s already been angry noises coming
:06:34. > :06:37.from quite a lot of senators. It was quite strange to see that photo of
:06:38. > :06:41.John Kerry hugging Cathy Ashton as if they had survived a ship great
:06:42. > :06:52.together. John Kerry is clearly feeling very happy. We will keep an
:06:53. > :06:54.eye on this. It is a fascinating development.
:06:55. > :06:57.More lurid details about the personal life of the Co-op Bank s
:06:58. > :07:02.disgraced former chairman, the Reverend Paul Flowers. The links
:07:03. > :07:05.between Labour, the bank and the wider Co-op movement have caused big
:07:06. > :07:09.problems for Ed Miliband this week, and the Conservatives have been
:07:10. > :07:13.revelling in it. But do the Tory allegations - Ed Miliband calls them
:07:14. > :07:23."smears" - stack up? Party Chairman Grant Shapps joins us from Hatfield.
:07:24. > :07:32.Welcome to the programme. When it comes to the Co-op, what are you
:07:33. > :07:36.accusing Labour of knowing and when? I think the simple thing to say here
:07:37. > :07:42.is that the Co-op is an important bank. They have obviously got into
:07:43. > :07:45.difficulty with Reverend flowers, and our primary concern is making
:07:46. > :07:49.sure that that is properly investigated, and that we understand
:07:50. > :07:52.what happened at the bank and how somebody like Paul Flowers could
:07:53. > :07:58.have ended up thing appointed chairman. You wrote to edge Miliband
:07:59. > :08:04.on Tuesday and asked him what he knew and when. -- you wrote to Ed
:08:05. > :08:08.Miliband. But by Prime Minister s Questions on Wednesday, David
:08:09. > :08:15.Cameron claims that you knew that Labour knew about his past all
:08:16. > :08:22.along. What is the evidence for that? We found out by Wednesday that
:08:23. > :08:27.he had been a Labour councillor Reverend Flowers, and had been made
:08:28. > :08:30.to stand down. Certainly, Labour knew about that, but somehow didn't
:08:31. > :08:37.seem to think that that made him less appropriate to be the chairman
:08:38. > :08:44.of the Co-op bank. There was no evidence that Mr Miliband or Mr
:08:45. > :08:49.Balls knew about that. I ask you again, what are you accusing the
:08:50. > :08:58.Labour leadership of knowing? We know now that he stood down for very
:08:59. > :09:01.inappropriate images on his computer, apparently. You are
:09:02. > :09:06.telling me that they didn't know. I am not sure that is clear at all. I
:09:07. > :09:10.have heard conflicting reports. There is a much bigger argument
:09:11. > :09:15.about what they knew and when. There was a much bigger issue here. This
:09:16. > :09:20.morning, Ed Miliband has said that they don't have to answer these
:09:21. > :09:23.questions and that these smears This is ludicrous. These are
:09:24. > :09:27.important questions about an important bank, how it ended up
:09:28. > :09:33.getting into this position, and how a disastrous Britannia -- Italia
:09:34. > :09:41.deal happen. -- Britannia deal happened. And we need to know how
:09:42. > :09:44.the bank came off the rails. To be accused of smears for asking the
:09:45. > :09:48.questions is ridiculous. I am just trying to find out what you are
:09:49. > :09:55.accusing Labour of. You saying that the Labour leadership knew about the
:09:56. > :10:04.drug-taking? Sorry, there was some noise here. I don't know what was
:10:05. > :10:08.known and when. We do know that Labour, the party, certainly knew
:10:09. > :10:13.about these very difficult circumstances in which he resigned
:10:14. > :10:18.as a councillor. I think that the Labour Party knew about it. We knew
:10:19. > :10:22.that Bradford did, but not London. Are you saying that Ed Miliband knew
:10:23. > :10:26.about the inappropriate material on the Reverend's laptop? It is
:10:27. > :10:34.certainly the case that Labour knew about it. But did Mr Miliband know
:10:35. > :10:41.about it, and his predilection for rent boys? He will need to answer
:10:42. > :10:45.those questions. It is quite proper to ask those questions. Surely,
:10:46. > :10:49.asking a perfectly legitimate set of questions, not just about that but
:10:50. > :10:54.about how we have ended up in a situation where this bank has made
:10:55. > :11:00.loans to Labour for millions of pounds, that bank and the Unite
:11:01. > :11:06.bank, who is connected to it. And how they made a ?50,000 donation to
:11:07. > :11:11.Ed Balls' office. Ed Balls says that was nothing to do with Reverend
:11:12. > :11:17.Flowers, and yet Reverend Flowers said that he personally signed that
:11:18. > :11:21.off. Lots of questions to answer. David Cameron has already answered
:11:22. > :11:27.them on Wednesday. He said that you now know that Labour knew about his
:11:28. > :11:30.past all along. You have not been able to present evidence that
:11:31. > :11:36.involve Mr Miliband or Mr Balls in that. So until you get that, surely
:11:37. > :11:40.you should apologise? Hang on. He said that Labour knew about this,
:11:41. > :11:46.and they did, because he stood down as a councillor. If Ed Miliband
:11:47. > :11:51.didn't know about that, then why not? This was quite a serious thing
:11:52. > :11:55.that happened. The wider point is about why it is that when you ask
:11:56. > :11:58.perfectly legitimate questions about this bank, about the Britannia deal,
:11:59. > :12:09.and about the background of Mr flowers, why is the response, it is
:12:10. > :12:12.all smears? There are questions about how Labour failed to deal with
:12:13. > :12:16.the deficit and how it hasn't done anything to support the welfare
:12:17. > :12:25.changes, but there is nothing about that. Let us -- lets: To the wider
:12:26. > :12:33.picture of the Co-operative Bank. Labour wanted the Co-op to take over
:12:34. > :12:38.the Britannia Building Society, and it was a disaster. Do you accept
:12:39. > :12:45.that? The government of the day has to be a part of these discussions
:12:46. > :12:50.for regulatory reason. The government in 2009 - Ed Balls was
:12:51. > :12:56.very pleased... But you supported that decision. There was a later
:12:57. > :13:01.deal, potentially, for the Co-op to buy those Lloyds branches. There was
:13:02. > :13:08.a proper process and it didn't go through just recently. If there had
:13:09. > :13:15.been a proper process back in 2 09, would the Britannia deal have gone
:13:16. > :13:20.through? First, you accept that the Tories were in favour of the
:13:21. > :13:24.Britannia take over. Then your Chancellor Osborne went out of his
:13:25. > :13:27.way to facilitate the purchase of the Lloyds branches, even though you
:13:28. > :13:35.had no idea that the Co-op had the management expertise to become a
:13:36. > :13:41.super medium. Correct? The difference is that that deal didn't
:13:42. > :13:48.go through. There was a proper process that took place. Let's look
:13:49. > :13:54.at the process. There was long indications as far back as January
:13:55. > :13:58.2012 that the Co-op, as a direct result of the Britannia take over
:13:59. > :14:03.which you will party supported, was unfit to acquire the Lloyds
:14:04. > :14:09.branches. By January 2012, the Chancellor and the Treasury ignored
:14:10. > :14:13.the warnings. Wide? In 2009, there was political pressure for the
:14:14. > :14:17.Britannia to be brought together. Based on the information available,
:14:18. > :14:21.this was supported, but that process ended up with a very, very
:14:22. > :14:27.problematic takeover of the Britannia. Wind forward to this
:14:28. > :14:30.year, and when the same types of issues were being looked at for the
:14:31. > :14:35.purchase of the Lloyds deal, the proper process was followed, this
:14:36. > :14:39.time with us in government, and that purchase didn't go through. It is
:14:40. > :14:42.important that the proper process is followed, and when it was, it
:14:43. > :14:52.transpired that the deal wasn't going to be done. But it was the
:14:53. > :14:57.Treasury and the Chancellor who were the cheerleaders for the acquisition
:14:58. > :15:00.of the Lloyds branches. But there was a warning that the Co-op did not
:15:01. > :15:04.have enough capital on its balance sheet to make those acquisitions,
:15:05. > :15:10.but instead of heeding those warnings, your people went to
:15:11. > :15:15.Brussels to lobby for the requirements to be relaxed - why on
:15:16. > :15:18.earth did you do that? Our Chancellor went to argue for all of
:15:19. > :15:23.Rajesh banking, not specifically for the Co-op. He was arguing for the
:15:24. > :15:29.mutuals to be given a special ruling. The idea was to make sure
:15:30. > :15:34.that every bank in Britain could have a better deal, particularly the
:15:35. > :15:38.mutuals, as you say. That is a proper thing for the Chancellor to
:15:39. > :15:42.be doing. We could go round in circles here, but in the end, there
:15:43. > :15:46.was not a takeover of the Lloyds branches, that is because we
:15:47. > :15:51.followed a proper process. Had that same rigorous process been followed
:15:52. > :15:55.in 2009, the legitimate question to ask is whether the Co-op would have
:15:56. > :15:59.been -- would have taken over the Britannia. That is a proper question
:16:00. > :16:03.to ask. It is no good to have the leader of the opposition say, as
:16:04. > :16:06.soon as you ask any of these questions about anything where there
:16:07. > :16:11.is a problem for them, they come back with, oh, this is all smears.
:16:12. > :16:14.There are questions to ask about what the Labour government did, the
:16:15. > :16:20.debt and the deficit they left the country with, the way they stopped
:16:21. > :16:24.work from paying in this country. The big question your government has
:16:25. > :16:28.two answer is, why, by July 201 , when it was clear there was a black
:16:29. > :16:33.hole in the Co-op's balance sheet, your government re-confirmed the
:16:34. > :16:38.Co-op as the preferred bidder for Lloyds - why would you do that?
:16:39. > :16:42.Well, look, the good thing is, we can discuss this until the cows come
:16:43. > :16:46.home, but there is going to be a proper, full investigation, so we
:16:47. > :16:51.will find out what happened, all the way back. So, we will be able to get
:16:52. > :16:55.to the bottom of all of this. Grant Shapps, the only reason the Lloyds
:16:56. > :17:01.deal did not go ahead was, despite the Treasury cheerleading, when
:17:02. > :17:03.Lloyds began its due diligence, it found that there was indeed a huge
:17:04. > :17:09.black hole in the balance sheet and that the Co-op was not fit to take
:17:10. > :17:14.over its branches. That wasn't you, it wasn't the Government, it was not
:17:15. > :17:19.the Chancellor, it was Lloyds. You were still cheerleading for the deal
:17:20. > :17:24.to go ahead... Well, as I say, a proper process was followed, which
:17:25. > :17:28.did not result in the purchase of the Lloyds branches. At that proper
:17:29. > :17:33.process been followed with the purchase of the Britannia, under the
:17:34. > :17:38.previous government... Which you supported. Yes, but it may well be
:17:39. > :17:41.that under that previous deal, there was a excess political pressure
:17:42. > :17:50.perhaps put on in order to create that merger, which proved so
:17:51. > :17:55.disastrous. The Tories facilitated it, Grant Shapps, they allowed it to
:17:56. > :17:59.go ahead. I have said, we are going to have a proper, independent
:18:00. > :18:03.review. What I cannot understand is, when you announce a robber,
:18:04. > :18:09.independent review, the response you get to these serious questions. The
:18:10. > :18:15.response is, oh, this is a smear. It is crazy. We are trying to answer
:18:16. > :18:24.the big questions for this country. We have done all of that, and we are
:18:25. > :18:27.out of time. The Reverend Flowers' chairmanship of the Co-op bank was
:18:28. > :18:32.approved by the regulator at the time, which no longer exists. It was
:18:33. > :18:36.swept away by the coalition government in a supposed revolution
:18:37. > :18:40.in regulation. But will its replacement, the Financial Conduct
:18:41. > :18:49.Authority, be different? Adam has been to find out. Come with me for a
:18:50. > :18:53.spin around the Square mile to find out how we regulate our financial
:18:54. > :18:58.sector, which is almost five times bigger than the country's entire
:18:59. > :19:04.annual income. First, let's pick up our guide, journalist Iain Martin,
:19:05. > :19:09.who has just written a book about what went so wrong during the
:19:10. > :19:12.financial crisis. The FSA was an agency which was established to
:19:13. > :19:17.supervise the banks on a day-to day basis. The Bank of England was
:19:18. > :19:20.supposed to have overall responsible at for this to Bolivia the financial
:19:21. > :19:24.system and the Treasury was supposed to take an interest in all of these
:19:25. > :19:31.things. The disaster was that it was not anyone's call responsibility, or
:19:32. > :19:34.main day job, to stay alert as to whether or not the banking system as
:19:35. > :19:38.a whole was being run in a safe manner. And so this April, a new
:19:39. > :19:48.system was set up to police the City. Most of the responsibly delays
:19:49. > :19:51.here, with the Bank of England, and its new Prudential Regulation
:19:52. > :19:55.Authority. And the Financial Services Authority has been replaced
:19:56. > :20:01.with the new Financial Conduct Authority. Can we go to the
:20:02. > :20:06.financial conduct authority, please? Canary Wharf, thank you. Here, it is
:20:07. > :20:09.all about whether the people in financial services are playing by
:20:10. > :20:14.the rules, in particular, how they treat their customers. This place
:20:15. > :20:18.has got new powers, like the ability to ban products it does not like, a
:20:19. > :20:22.new mandate to promote competition in the market, the concept being,
:20:23. > :20:27.more competition means a better market, plus the idea that a new
:20:28. > :20:34.organisation rings a whole new culture. Although these are the old
:20:35. > :20:39.offices of the FSA, so maybe not quite so new after all. It has also
:20:40. > :20:43.inherited the case of the Co-op bank and its disgraced former chairman
:20:44. > :20:46.the Reverend Paul Flowers. The SCA will be part of the investigation
:20:47. > :20:51.into what happened, which will probably involve looking at its own
:20:52. > :20:55.conduct. One member of the Parliamentary commission into
:20:56. > :21:00.banking wonders whether the new regulator, and its new boss, are up
:21:01. > :21:05.to it. I have always said, it is not the architecture which is the issue,
:21:06. > :21:09.it is the powers that the regulator has, and today, it does not seem to
:21:10. > :21:15.me as if there is any increase in that. And with the unfolding scandal
:21:16. > :21:22.at the Co-op, it feels like the new architecture for regulating the City
:21:23. > :21:24.is now facing its first big test. And the chief executive of the
:21:25. > :21:31.Financial Conduct Authority, the SCA, Martin Wheatley, joins me now.
:21:32. > :21:34.Welcome to The Sunday Politics. The failure of bank regulation was one
:21:35. > :21:40.of the clearest lessons of the crash in 2008, and yet two years later, in
:21:41. > :21:45.2010, Paul Flowers is allowed to become chairman of the Co-op - why
:21:46. > :21:50.have we still not got the regulation right? We have made a lot of changes
:21:51. > :21:54.since then. We have created a new regulator, as you know. At the time,
:21:55. > :21:58.we still had a process which allowed somebody to be appointed to a bank
:21:59. > :22:02.and they would go through a challenge, but in the case of Paul
:22:03. > :22:04.Flowers, there was no need for an additional challenge when he was
:22:05. > :22:11.appointed to chairman, because he was already on the board. But going
:22:12. > :22:16.from being on the board to becoming chairman, that is a big jump, and he
:22:17. > :22:20.only had one interview? That is why today, it would be different. But
:22:21. > :22:25.the truth is, that was the system at the time, the system which the FSA
:22:26. > :22:29.operated. He was challenged, we did challenge him, and we said, you do
:22:30. > :22:33.not have the right experience, but at the time, we would not have
:22:34. > :22:36.opposed the appointment. What we needed was additional representation
:22:37. > :22:41.of the board of people who did have banking experience. You can say that
:22:42. > :22:45.that was then and this is now, but up until April of this year, it was
:22:46. > :22:49.still the plan for the Co-op, under Mr Flowers, and despite being
:22:50. > :22:55.seriously wounded by the Britannia takeover, to take on 632 Lloyds
:22:56. > :22:59.branches. That was the Co-op's plan. They needed to pass our test
:23:00. > :23:03.as to whether we thought they were fit to do that, and frankly, they
:23:04. > :23:08.never passed that test. It was not the regulator that stopped them It
:23:09. > :23:12.was. We were constantly pushing back, saying, you have not got the
:23:13. > :23:14.capital, you have no got the systems, and ultimately, they
:23:15. > :23:20.withdrew, when they could not answer our questions. You were asking the
:23:21. > :23:25.right questions, I accept that, but all of the time, the politicians on
:23:26. > :23:29.all sides, they were pushing for it to happen, and I cannot find
:23:30. > :23:35.anywhere where the regulator said, look, this is just not going to
:23:36. > :23:38.happen. I cannot comment on what the politicians were doing, but I
:23:39. > :23:41.continue what we were doing, which was constantly asking the Co-op
:23:42. > :23:46.have you got the systems in place, have you got the people, have you
:23:47. > :23:49.got the capital? And they didn't. But it only came to a head when
:23:50. > :23:53.Lloyds started its own due diligence on the bank, and they discovered
:23:54. > :23:58.that it was impossible for them to take over the branches, it was not
:23:59. > :24:03.the regulator... In fairness, what we do is ask the questions, can you
:24:04. > :24:07.do this deal? And we kept pushing back, and we never frankly got
:24:08. > :24:14.delivered a business plan which we were happy to approve. Is the SCA
:24:15. > :24:25.going to launch its own inquiry into what happened? -- the FCA. The
:24:26. > :24:29.Chancellor has announced what will be a very broad inquiry. There are a
:24:30. > :24:34.number of specifics which we will be able to look at, relating to events
:24:35. > :24:39.over the last five years. Could there be a police investigation I
:24:40. > :24:43.think the police have already announced an investigation. I am
:24:44. > :24:47.talking about into the handling of the bank. It depends. There might
:24:48. > :24:56.be, if there is grim low activity, which we do not know yet. You worked
:24:57. > :25:03.at the FS eight, didn't you? I did. Some of those people who were signed
:25:04. > :25:09.off on the speedy promotion of Mr Flowers, are they now working
:25:10. > :25:12.there? Yes, we have some. I came to join the Financial Services
:25:13. > :25:18.Authority, to lead it into the creation of the new body, the SCA.
:25:19. > :25:28.We had people who were challenging and they did the job. There was not
:25:29. > :25:31.a requirement to approve the role as chairman. There was not even a
:25:32. > :25:37.requirement to interview at that stage. What we did do was to require
:25:38. > :25:49.that he was interviewed, and that the Co-op should get additional
:25:50. > :25:53.experience. One of the people from the old organisation, who signed up
:25:54. > :25:56.on the promotion of Mr Flowers to become chairman is now a
:25:57. > :26:04.nonexecutive director of the Co op, so how does that work? Welcome he
:26:05. > :26:07.was a senior adviser to our organisation, one of the people who
:26:08. > :26:12.made the challenges, and who said, you need more experience on your
:26:13. > :26:15.board. Subsequently he then went and joined the board. Surely that should
:26:16. > :26:21.not be allowed, the regulator and the regulated should not be like
:26:22. > :26:25.that. Well clearly, you need protection, but we have got to get
:26:26. > :26:29.good people in, and frankly, we want the industry to have good people in
:26:30. > :26:33.the industry, so there will be some movement between the regulator and
:26:34. > :26:37.industry. We all wonder whether you have the power or even the
:26:38. > :26:40.confidence to stand up if you look at all of the really bad bank
:26:41. > :26:45.decisions recently, politicians were behind them. It was Gordon Brown who
:26:46. > :26:50.pushed the disastrous merger of Lloyds and RBS. It was Alex Salmond
:26:51. > :26:55.who egged on RBS to buy the world. All three main parties wanted the
:26:56. > :26:59.Co-op to buy Britannia, even though they did not know the debt it would
:27:00. > :27:02.inherit, and all three wanted the Co-op to buy the Lloyds branches -
:27:03. > :27:08.how do you as a regulator stand up to that little concert party? Well,
:27:09. > :27:12.that political pressure exists, our job at the end of the day is to do a
:27:13. > :27:16.relatively technical job and say, does it stack up? And it didn't and
:27:17. > :27:20.we made that point time and time again to the Co-op board. They did
:27:21. > :27:24.not have a business case that we could approve. The bodies on left
:27:25. > :27:31.and right -- the politicians on left and right gave the Co-op special
:27:32. > :27:38.support. They may have done, but that was not you have made a warning
:27:39. > :27:42.about these payday lenders, but I think what most people would like to
:27:43. > :27:46.see is a limit put on the interest they can charge over a period of
:27:47. > :27:51.time - will you do that? We have got a whole set of powers for payday
:27:52. > :27:55.lenders. We will bring in some changes from April next year, and we
:27:56. > :27:58.will bring in further changes as we see necessary. Will you put a limit
:27:59. > :28:04.on the interest they can charge That is something we can study. You
:28:05. > :28:08.do not sound too keen on it? Well, there are a lot of changes we need
:28:09. > :28:12.to make. One change is limiting rollovers, limiting the use of
:28:13. > :28:16.continuous payment authorities. Simply jumping to one trigger would
:28:17. > :28:21.be a mistake. Finally, an issue which I think is becoming a growing
:28:22. > :28:26.concern, because the Government is thinking of subsidising them, 9 %
:28:27. > :28:31.mortgages are back - should we not be worried about that? I think we
:28:32. > :28:35.should if the market has the same experiences that we had back in 2007
:28:36. > :28:40.- oh wait. We are bringing a comprehensive package in under our
:28:41. > :28:44.mortgage market review, which will change how people lend and will put
:28:45. > :28:55.affordability back at the heart of lending decisions. -- 2007-08. You
:28:56. > :28:56.have not had your first big challenge yet, have you? We have
:28:57. > :29:06.many challenges. It was once called the battle of the
:29:07. > :29:08.mods and the rockers - the fight between David Cameron-style
:29:09. > :29:11.modernisers and old-style traditional Tories for the direction
:29:12. > :29:18.and soul of the Conservative Party. But have the mods given up on
:29:19. > :29:23.changing the brand? When David Cameron took over in 2005, he
:29:24. > :29:27.promoted himself as a new Tory leader. He said that hoodies need
:29:28. > :29:33.more love. He was talking about something called the big society. He
:29:34. > :29:38.told his party conference that it was time to that sunshine win the
:29:39. > :29:42.day. There was new emphasis on the environment, and an eye-catching
:29:43. > :29:47.trip to a Norwegian glacier to see first-hand, supposedly, the effects
:29:48. > :29:52.of global warming. This week, party modernise and Nick bone has said
:29:53. > :29:56.that the party is still seen as an old-fashioned monolith and hasn t
:29:57. > :30:05.done enough to improve its appeal. The Tories have put some reforms
:30:06. > :30:10.into practice, such as gay marriage, but they have put more into welfare
:30:11. > :30:14.reform band compassionate conservatism. David Cameron wants
:30:15. > :30:22.talked about leading the greenest government ever. Downing Street says
:30:23. > :30:29.that the quote in the Son is not recognised, get rid of the green
:30:30. > :30:32.crap. At this point in the programme we were expecting to hear from the
:30:33. > :30:34.Energy and Climate Change Minister, Greg Barker. Unfortunately, he has
:30:35. > :30:41.pulled out, with Downing Street saying it's for ""family reasons"".
:30:42. > :30:46.Make of that what you will. However, we won't be deterred. We're still
:30:47. > :30:49.doing the story, and we're joined by our very own mod and rocker - David
:30:50. > :30:55.Skelton of the think-tank Renewal, and Conservative MP Peter Bone.
:30:56. > :31:00.Welcome to you both. I'm glad your family is allowed you to come? David
:31:01. > :31:05.Skelton, getting rid of all the green crap, or words to that effect,
:31:06. > :31:07.that David Cameron has been saying. It is just a sign that Tory
:31:08. > :31:14.modernisation has been quietly buried. I do think that's right
:31:15. > :31:19.Modernisation is about reaching out to the voters, and the work to do
:31:20. > :31:24.that is now more relevant than ever. We got the biggest swing since 931,
:31:25. > :31:29.and the thing is we need to do more to reach out to voters in the North.
:31:30. > :31:38.We need to reach out to non-white voters, and show that the concerns
:31:39. > :31:42.of modern Britain and the concerns of ordinary people is something that
:31:43. > :31:46.we share. And what way will racking up electricity bills with green
:31:47. > :31:52.levies get you more votes in the North of England? We have to look at
:31:53. > :31:55.ways to reduce energy bills. The renewable energy directive doesn't
:31:56. > :32:02.do anything to help cut our emissions, but does decrease energy
:32:03. > :32:05.bills by ?45 a year. We should renegotiate that. That is a part of
:32:06. > :32:11.modernisation and doing what ordinarily people want. And old
:32:12. > :32:17.dinosaurs like you are just holding this modernisation process back I
:32:18. > :32:22.am very appreciative of covering on this programme. The Tory party has
:32:23. > :32:26.been reforming itself for more than 150 years. This idea of modern eyes
:32:27. > :32:34.a is just some invention. We are changing all the time. I'm nice and
:32:35. > :32:38.cuddly! So you are happy that the party made gay marriage almost a
:32:39. > :32:47.kind of symbol of its modernisation? Fine Mac the gay marriage was a free
:32:48. > :32:51.vote. David Cameron was recorded as a rebel there because more Tories
:32:52. > :32:55.voted against his position than ever before. It was said that this was a
:32:56. > :32:59.split between the old and young but it actually was a split between
:33:00. > :33:03.those who were religious and nonreligious. It is a
:33:04. > :33:11.misinterpretation of what happened. Is a modernisation in retreat? I
:33:12. > :33:16.think modernisation is an invention. Seven years ago, in my
:33:17. > :33:22.part of the world, we got three councillors elected, two were 8 and
:33:23. > :33:26.one was 21. A few months ago, a 25-year-old was chosen to fight
:33:27. > :33:32.Corby for the Conservative Party. He came from a comprehensive School. He
:33:33. > :33:34.was one of the youngest. The Tory party is moving on. So you found
:33:35. > :33:39.three young people? Hang on a three young people? Hang on a
:33:40. > :33:48.minute. You can't get away with that. Three in one batch. Does
:33:49. > :33:54.modernisation exist? Modernisation is about watering our appeal and
:33:55. > :33:58.sharing our values are relevant to voters who haven't really thought
:33:59. > :34:02.about voting for us for decades now. Modernisation is about more than
:34:03. > :34:06.windmills and stuff, it is about boosting the life chances of the
:34:07. > :34:12.poorest, it is about putting better schools in poorer areas. It is also
:34:13. > :34:16.saying that modernisation and the Tory party... When has the Tory
:34:17. > :34:21.party been against making poorer Tory party... When has the Tory
:34:22. > :34:25.people better off? Or against better schools? Do you think Mrs Thatcher
:34:26. > :34:28.those elections? The problem we have those elections? The problem we have
:34:29. > :34:34.at the moment is that UKIP has grown-up. If we could get all of
:34:35. > :34:39.those people who vote UKIP to vote for us, we would get 47% of the
:34:40. > :34:44.vote. We don't need to worry about voters on the left. We need to worry
:34:45. > :34:52.about the voters in the north, those people who haven't voted for us for
:34:53. > :34:54.decades. Having an EU Referendum Bill is going to get people to
:34:55. > :35:00.decades. Having an EU Referendum vote. We have to reach out to
:35:01. > :35:05.voters, but not by some sort of London based in need. You have to
:35:06. > :35:09.broaden your base. I agree with you on that. We have to broaden our
:35:10. > :35:14.concept is not going to work. We concept is not going to work. We
:35:15. > :35:18.need something that generally appeals to low and middle-income
:35:19. > :35:23.genuinely care about the life genuinely care about the life
:35:24. > :35:31.chances of the poorest. Do you think that the people who vote UKIP don't
:35:32. > :35:35.support those aspirations? We are not doing enough to cut immigration.
:35:36. > :35:39.We don't have an EU Referendum Bill stop we have to get the centre right
:35:40. > :35:47.to vote for us again. Do that, and we have it. Tom Pursglove, the 5
:35:48. > :35:51.euros, will be returned in Corby because we cannot win an election
:35:52. > :36:01.euros, will be returned in Corby there. -- the 25-year-old. Whether
:36:02. > :36:07.you are moderniser or traditionalist, people, particularly
:36:08. > :36:15.in the North, see you as a bunch of rich men. And rich southerners. You
:36:16. > :36:19.are bunch of rich southerners. We need to do more to show that we are
:36:20. > :36:26.building on lifting the poorest out of the tax. We need to build more
:36:27. > :36:32.houses. There is a perception that the leadership at the moment is
:36:33. > :36:35.rich, and public school educated. What we have to do is get more
:36:36. > :36:36.rich, and public school educated. people from state education into the
:36:37. > :36:42.top. You are going the other way at top. You are going the other way at
:36:43. > :36:51.the moment. That is a fair criticism. Modernisers also say
:36:52. > :36:57.that. I went to a combo hedge of school as well. -- do a
:36:58. > :37:06.comprehensive school. We need to show that we are standing up for low
:37:07. > :37:08.income. Thank Q, both of you. You are watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:09. > :37:25.Coming up in Hello and welcome to your local
:37:26. > :37:29.Politics Show. As more council jobs are lost in Middlesbrough, we ask if
:37:30. > :37:33.the region's private companies could create enough new jobs to fill the
:37:34. > :37:38.gap. And the disabled travellers who have to be pushed across the tracks
:37:39. > :37:44.in the gap between Intercity trains. A Cumbrian MP says it is frightening
:37:45. > :37:49.and unacceptable. Labour MP for Newcastle Central and Sunderland
:37:50. > :37:55.Conservative councillor, welcome to you both. Let's stop the economy.
:37:56. > :38:03.Signs are there is a recovery under way and that is official, but how
:38:04. > :38:08.true is it in our region? A survey was carried out of 100 firms. Six
:38:09. > :38:11.out of ten said they are feeling more confident in their own business
:38:12. > :38:17.and the wider economy, with half reporting growth in export revenues.
:38:18. > :38:22.Is that optimism reflected in your community? Well, it is absolutely
:38:23. > :38:28.great that the economy, despite this disastrous handling, is recovering
:38:29. > :38:32.up to 2008 levels, because that is where we are getting too, but in my
:38:33. > :38:36.constituency and everybody outside of the Cabinet macro, the cost of
:38:37. > :38:43.living crisis continues and it is getting harder, and people are not
:38:44. > :38:45.feeling that recovery, that sense of optimism in growth which the
:38:46. > :38:54.Chancellor and David Cameron like to talk so much about. Robert Oliver,
:38:55. > :38:58.what is the situation in Sunderland? It is certainly getting better and
:38:59. > :39:02.it is very important that the North East improves and catches up. In
:39:03. > :39:05.Sunderland, more than 12,000 private`sector jobs have been
:39:06. > :39:11.created and that is excellent. Mainly around the investment and
:39:12. > :39:14.success of Nissan. It will take time for the private sector to catch up
:39:15. > :39:18.but those are the incentives that the Government is trying to give at
:39:19. > :39:22.the moment. We are going to go into more detail about that now, because
:39:23. > :39:29.we have had more positive jobs news for Nestle in York, Hitachi and a
:39:30. > :39:33.few others. But can we create enough of those jobs to replace the tens of
:39:34. > :39:39.thousands lost in the public sector? How have we been doing?
:39:40. > :39:46.Protesters outside Middlesbrough town Hall this week. 20 of sound,
:39:47. > :39:50.quite a lot of fury. Because the council has announced 600 job
:39:51. > :39:55.losses, the latest in a whole raft of public sector cuts across the
:39:56. > :40:01.region. `` plenty of sound. So where are the jobs to replace them? Partly
:40:02. > :40:05.here. This firm in County Durham makes Craft supplies and also has
:40:06. > :40:09.bases in California and Holland. The boss, Sara, started it from her
:40:10. > :40:17.university bedroom and now employs many workers, some of which are from
:40:18. > :40:20.the public sector. It is a totally different pace working in the
:40:21. > :40:24.private sector from the public sector, which is what I think many
:40:25. > :40:28.of those staff have found, but it is so rewarding where you are not a
:40:29. > :40:32.tiny cog in a big wheel. Smaller companies need to not be frightened
:40:33. > :40:35.of taking on staff and instead of looking at the expense that comes
:40:36. > :40:42.with staff, look at the value staff can bring in. While this firm is
:40:43. > :40:47.taking on workers, many others are being axed in the region's public
:40:48. > :40:52.sector, so what do the numbers show? Since 2008, the region has lost
:40:53. > :40:56.42,000 public sector jobs. During the same period, 34,000
:40:57. > :41:01.private`sector jobs had been created, but that still leaves a
:41:02. > :41:05.shortfall of 8000 jobs. This week, Sara spoke to 150 other
:41:06. > :41:09.entrepreneurs at a conference in Darlington. These people have all
:41:10. > :41:16.been successful but how quickly can they create new jobs? Entrepreneurs
:41:17. > :41:19.are creating new businesses and employing more people but sometimes
:41:20. > :41:23.there is a time delay between creating businesses and then jobs.
:41:24. > :41:26.People coming from the public sector are extremely skilled and what they
:41:27. > :41:30.have to do is look at the skills that they have as well and see if it
:41:31. > :41:35.wasn't on the agenda immediately, whether they can become
:41:36. > :41:41.entrepreneurs. Which is exactly what Marjorie did. She has set up her own
:41:42. > :41:48.company providing similar services to her job working in
:41:49. > :41:52.anti`bullying. But now that is under threat. Some of them say, we would
:41:53. > :41:56.love to have your services in school but they don't have the money. It is
:41:57. > :42:00.very disappointing because you have to put effort into setting up a
:42:01. > :42:04.company and there are costs involved in that. I will be very sad if it
:42:05. > :42:11.comes to the point where I'd do have to close down the service. Yeah.
:42:12. > :42:20.Unions are concerned as well that the quality of some public sector
:42:21. > :42:23.jobs. What we're seeing is an increase in zero hours contracts and
:42:24. > :42:28.we know there is in excess of 1 million of those being used. And
:42:29. > :42:32.four in five of those private`sector jobs being created are paying low
:42:33. > :42:38.wages but what we want our good quality jobs with decent pay so
:42:39. > :42:42.people can live and not just exist. More job losses mean more protests
:42:43. > :42:47.but away from the placards and slogans, jobs are being created in
:42:48. > :42:50.the region. It is a fluctuating picture of losses and gains,
:42:51. > :42:56.sometimes hard to follow, but with the fate of our economy at stake.
:42:57. > :43:00.Economic growth is only just getting going but the private sector has
:43:01. > :43:05.already replaced many of the public sector jobs that have been lost. It
:43:06. > :43:10.is not the doomsday situation Labour would have had us believe? It is not
:43:11. > :43:18.a doomsday scenario but if you look at the detail, a lot of those
:43:19. > :43:21.private`sector jobs are public sector jobs that have been
:43:22. > :43:26.outsourced to the private sector. And many of those zero hours. It is
:43:27. > :43:30.not more efficient. It undermines security and doesn't allow people to
:43:31. > :43:33.plan for their families and their working lives and for their bill
:43:34. > :43:37.payments. But, remember, the important thing for the North East
:43:38. > :43:41.is that what this Chancellor promised was an export led,
:43:42. > :43:46.rebalanced recovery, a manufacturing recovery plane to our strengths.
:43:47. > :43:49.What we have instead is a recovery fuelled by a housing boom where the
:43:50. > :43:53.service sector is leading and that is why the jobs that need to be
:43:54. > :43:57.created are not being created in the North East and we still have the
:43:58. > :44:04.highest level of unemployment in the country. Roger Oliver, it is a fake
:44:05. > :44:08.boom and not creating the jobs we need? I would be more positive and
:44:09. > :44:15.say that the private sector is creating a lot of valuable and
:44:16. > :44:19.long`term jobs. We have the ports outside of Sunderland and time doing
:44:20. > :44:24.very well. And the motor sector as well. Those are creating very
:44:25. > :44:27.important jobs. They should rebalance the economy. But the
:44:28. > :44:30.reality is that we have lost more jobs than we have gained and there
:44:31. > :44:37.are hundreds, thousands more jobs to go and we are not out of the woods.
:44:38. > :44:41.The loss in the public sector has come quite quickly because of the
:44:42. > :44:44.reduction in finances to councils. That has happened and it will take
:44:45. > :44:49.time for the private sector to catch up with that, but actually the
:44:50. > :44:54.figures you have shown show that the private sector is catching up quite
:44:55. > :44:58.well. But what about the quality of these jobs? Is the TUC says, low
:44:59. > :45:04.paid, part`time, zero hours contracts? I think that is also to
:45:05. > :45:08.do with the change in the workforce globally. That some people might
:45:09. > :45:13.prefer part`time jobs or prefer to have that than no employment. And
:45:14. > :45:17.with a zero hours contracts, they can be good or bad. They have been
:45:18. > :45:20.around for some time and a lot of Labour councillors use the hours
:45:21. > :45:24.contracts. But some people might want to have one of those. Yes,
:45:25. > :45:29.think there is an issue where people would like more job security and
:45:30. > :45:33.that will come with strength in the economy. `` I think. But there is
:45:34. > :45:40.more to be done on that even though it will come. And as the economy
:45:41. > :45:44.takes off, they will be better off, those people, than sitting on the
:45:45. > :45:54.dole? I think it is very important not to failed to condemn the
:45:55. > :46:04.negative aspects of zero hours contracts. But when the Government
:46:05. > :46:13.stood back and waited to allow the private sector to create those jobs,
:46:14. > :46:17.they didn't have any plans for the North East, and we have people
:46:18. > :46:23.waiting for a signal in support in terms of the energy sector, the
:46:24. > :46:28.automotive sector... They are getting support. They are getting
:46:29. > :46:37.national insurer 's, cuts to their tax... You need to be making profits
:46:38. > :46:42.before a cut taxes helps you! What makes a difference right at the
:46:43. > :46:45.beginning is manufacturing allowances, which this Government
:46:46. > :46:49.slashed, and also business support, which the Labour government would
:46:50. > :46:53.bring in four small businesses. Things may be getting better, I
:46:54. > :46:58.think we would all agree to that. But people might get left behind and
:46:59. > :47:05.the North East will be left in the position further on where it is
:47:06. > :47:11.lacking. Think the big thing we need to address to make sure that the gap
:47:12. > :47:14.is narrowed its skills. You saw that in the Adonis report. That is one of
:47:15. > :47:18.the reasons we don't do as well as the rest of the country. A lot of
:47:19. > :47:22.jobs... I mean, I get employers say they have jobs for people but they
:47:23. > :47:26.just don't have the skills, so we must address that through education.
:47:27. > :47:32.And we will be discussing education in weeks to come. A Cumbrian MP has
:47:33. > :47:37.called for urgent action to make railway station is fully accessible
:47:38. > :47:41.for disabled people. Passengers in wheelchairs have to be pushed across
:47:42. > :47:44.the West Coast Main Line in areas and councillors have said it is
:47:45. > :47:50.unacceptable. Ministers say they are making ?100 million available for
:47:51. > :47:54.improvements between now and 2019 but many say the improvements are
:47:55. > :47:57.taking just too long. Penrith in North Cumbria. A busy
:47:58. > :48:02.station on the West Coast Main Line but not one that many disabled
:48:03. > :48:06.people can use. Elaine from Appleby has arthritis and cannot even walk
:48:07. > :48:12.short distances. Penrith is her nearest major station but she cannot
:48:13. > :48:16.use it. I am fairly sad, actually, because with it being my main
:48:17. > :48:21.station to get to London, I would like to use it. But it's not the
:48:22. > :48:24.going, it is the coming back. If you are heading south from Penrith
:48:25. > :48:29.access is fine. There are no steps between the car park and platform
:48:30. > :48:32.number one. But travelling from platform North, trains depart from
:48:33. > :48:44.platform number two. Getting down their impulse going down a steep set
:48:45. > :48:47.of stairs, along an underpass and then up more stairs on the other
:48:48. > :48:50.side. If you cannot do the stairs, you have to get someone to help you
:48:51. > :48:53.across the tracks over what is known as a barrow crossing. The station
:48:54. > :48:55.Manager applets it is not a good situation. It can be quite
:48:56. > :49:04.intimidating. `` the Station Manager ad mitts. But mobility scooters
:49:05. > :49:08.aren't even allowed over the tracks so Elaine travels all the way to
:49:09. > :49:13.Carlisle to catch trains, adding 20 miles to each journey. People
:49:14. > :49:17.without disabilities don't realise how hard it is and it does make you
:49:18. > :49:24.feel that really you should be able to cope and you can't cope. And they
:49:25. > :49:27.are just leaving you behind. Across the region, eight other stations
:49:28. > :49:38.still have barrow crossings, including Workington, Flynn beat,
:49:39. > :49:43.Appleby and Dent. Bardon Mill and Hexham are not set free and not
:49:44. > :49:47.being upgraded till next March. After a long campaign, Penrith has
:49:48. > :49:50.been nominated for funding from the Department for Transport to get
:49:51. > :49:56.lifts installed. But a decision will not be made until next April so the
:49:57. > :50:00.lobbying continues. We are going to get the money from somewhere. If we
:50:01. > :50:07.don't get it from the Government, we will get it from Virgin, and if not
:50:08. > :50:11.there, the transport Department. But this is the only station that
:50:12. > :50:21.doesn't have a disabled lift across this bit of the network. Penrith's
:50:22. > :50:27.success was said by one minister not to be guaranteed but it is a strong
:50:28. > :50:30.candidate, as they are due ?100 million for improvements. While this
:50:31. > :50:38.carries on, disabled passengers will have to cross the tracks or use
:50:39. > :50:41.other stations. We now have Baroness Tony Grey
:50:42. > :50:49.Thompson with us. What does this seem like to you? How familiar is
:50:50. > :50:52.it? It is incredibly familiar. Most people experience difficulty
:50:53. > :50:57.somewhere along the way, whether it is ramps not being used on buses or
:50:58. > :51:02.actually accessing trains. And one of the things that will happen with
:51:03. > :51:08.the change welfare reform and potentially up to 100,000 people
:51:09. > :51:12.losing mobility cars, it is not just about wheelchair users, it is about
:51:13. > :51:16.parents with young families, elderly people and making the public
:51:17. > :51:21.transport system open to everyone, and at the moment, it is not. The
:51:22. > :51:24.Government acknowledges this problem and that is why it is putting this
:51:25. > :51:31.money in. It is just a question of patience. They can't do everything
:51:32. > :51:36.at once. I think disabled people have been patient enough! It is
:51:37. > :51:39.important to recognise that these changes are expensive. 100 million
:51:40. > :51:43.sounds like a huge amount of money but it still won't make the rail
:51:44. > :51:47.network totally accessible. But it is about having a social life, a
:51:48. > :51:51.work life, being able to spend money and be a full member of society. If
:51:52. > :51:56.other people had to take a 20 mile the tour, I think that would do an
:51:57. > :52:06.awful lot more to encourage these changes to be made. `` detoured.
:52:07. > :52:11.Shouldn't it be companies like Virgin to put the money in rather
:52:12. > :52:16.than always taxpayers? Because it would benefit them? I am sure as
:52:17. > :52:20.part of their contracts, actually what you have to do at train
:52:21. > :52:24.stations is not part of that. I'd think it is just about taking a bit
:52:25. > :52:28.of a step back and thinking about who we want to be using public
:52:29. > :52:32.transport and making it better for everyone. And Baroness Cramer has
:52:33. > :52:36.offered to come on a train journey with me so I can show her some of
:52:37. > :52:39.the things disabled people face every day because I think unless
:52:40. > :52:42.they see it, they probably don't realise that you might be able to
:52:43. > :52:49.get to the platform but you also still often need help to get on and
:52:50. > :52:54.off the trains and there aren't accessible toilets. So it is a wider
:52:55. > :52:59.issue than putting in some ramps and a lift. It is scandalous that
:53:00. > :53:07.disabled people, people with mobility problems, older people or
:53:08. > :53:17.those with children have to struggle with trains? You have this split
:53:18. > :53:21.between railway lines and stations and trains and that has to be got
:53:22. > :53:26.over so the money is put in to make sure every railway station is
:53:27. > :53:32.accessible. Is it being done quickly enough? I don't think so. I would
:53:33. > :53:35.say that if you look at what we are spending money on, this is a
:53:36. > :53:44.priority over some of the other things we are doing. It is a result
:53:45. > :53:49.of the fragmentation of the network through the network privatisation
:53:50. > :53:53.and I have voice been proud that the metro system that was put in, the
:53:54. > :53:58.product of an integrated transport system, was the first light Railway
:53:59. > :54:02.accessible to disabled people. It is a disgrace that in this day and age
:54:03. > :54:06.in the region disabled people cannot travel as they need to and it is
:54:07. > :54:12.also an economic barrier for them. And we really do need to make sure
:54:13. > :54:17.that in terms of European legislation, the accessibility to
:54:18. > :54:21.public transport is right for disabled people and we need to make
:54:22. > :54:26.sure the rail industry comes together as much as it can in order
:54:27. > :54:30.to put this right. What is the one thing that could be done to make it
:54:31. > :54:33.easier for disabled people to travel as freely as possible? Is it an
:54:34. > :54:39.awareness when any improvements are made that disabled people's needs
:54:40. > :54:44.have to be taken into account? I think so. It is in terms of if there
:54:45. > :54:47.is any new build going on, that is easier to do rather than
:54:48. > :54:52.retrospectively coming in to make changes. But huge amount could be
:54:53. > :54:55.done to help staff coming in so disabled people can come and get on
:54:56. > :54:59.a train and they don't have to book, and making sure they are
:55:00. > :55:03.helped that the other end. Most of the complaints are received about
:55:04. > :55:06.train companies are those that leave disabled people on board, so there
:55:07. > :55:11.are lots of things we can do that don't have to cost a massive amount
:55:12. > :55:17.of. Thank you very much. Calls to set up a new political
:55:18. > :55:20.party for the North East and the local council is trying to did our
:55:21. > :55:31.street lights. Just some of the local news making the headlines.
:55:32. > :55:35.There's a need for a new political party in the North East along the
:55:36. > :55:40.lines of the Scottish and Welsh nationalists, according to the
:55:41. > :55:45.Labour MP Helston Dawson. We need real power in the hands of the North
:55:46. > :55:50.East people and the only way to do that that eye can see is to have a
:55:51. > :55:56.political party dedicated to that cause. `` I can. The leader of
:55:57. > :56:00.Durham Council is to take over as chair of the North East leadership
:56:01. > :56:05.board. It is a first step to getting all the councils to work together on
:56:06. > :56:09.economic growth. The Sunderland MP has attacked the Prime Minister's
:56:10. > :56:15.record on childcare. I have been disappointed that over 500 Sure
:56:16. > :56:20.Start Centres have closed since 2010. And finally, the lumiere
:56:21. > :56:23.festival lit up the skies and no street lights across parts of County
:56:24. > :56:29.Durham are to be dimmed after tempi at night and 45,000 streetlights
:56:30. > :56:35.will also be replaced. `` dimmed after 10pm.
:56:36. > :56:41.Robert Oliver, let's talk more about childcare. Labour has been on the
:56:42. > :56:45.offensive accusing David Cameron of breaking his promises. If you want
:56:46. > :56:48.more people in work, women in particular, making childcare more
:56:49. > :56:59.expensive and harder to find is hardly going to help, is it? This
:57:00. > :57:01.has been a problem of a reduction in number of childminders and
:57:02. > :57:07.increasing costs that has gone on for a number of years. I think one
:57:08. > :57:12.of the biggest problems really is supplied. There is a lack of supply
:57:13. > :57:16.and that is pushing up the cost. One of the things that can be done there
:57:17. > :57:21.is to broaden the supply a little bit by trying to allow schools to
:57:22. > :57:28.provide more childcare opportunities and to also make the training of
:57:29. > :57:32.childminders much easier. The reality is that the government has
:57:33. > :57:39.put more money into childcare since 2010. Labour quadruple but funding
:57:40. > :57:51.for child care and since 2010, the number of childcare places has gone
:57:52. > :58:01.down. `` labour quadrupled. The provision has gone down and there is
:58:02. > :58:05.greater demand but fewer places, and over 500 Sure Start Centres, the
:58:06. > :58:09.centres that David Cameron personally promised to support and
:58:10. > :58:13.to save, they have closed and closing at the rate of three a week.
:58:14. > :58:18.We will come back to that because there is a dispute on the figures.
:58:19. > :58:22.Labour, as understand, want to fund extra childcare but you're going to
:58:23. > :58:28.do it with this bank tax, which seems to pay for everything! That
:58:29. > :58:31.has been the accusation! Whereas we have been incredibly careful in
:58:32. > :58:35.terms of pricing every single proposal we have put forward, which
:58:36. > :58:39.is more than this Government has done, for what it is saying it is
:58:40. > :58:44.going to do after 2015, and we have called the office of the budget was
:58:45. > :58:50.once ability to look at manifesto promises. `` the Office for Budget
:58:51. > :58:58.Responsibility. So we want to have a wraparound childcare from 8am to 6pm
:58:59. > :59:06.and then childcare going up as basic provision for those under three.
:59:07. > :59:11.Those centres for those who need childcare the most and they are
:59:12. > :59:17.closing. I think to be fair to those centres, it is best to say there is
:59:18. > :59:20.some improvement in children's outcomes because they were extremely
:59:21. > :59:26.expensive and the outcomes are relatively small. So it is located
:59:27. > :59:30.close them? That is the choice councils. They are not being told to
:59:31. > :59:33.close them. They are having a reduced budget and within that they
:59:34. > :59:37.have to make the choices. But the problem with Sure Start Centres is
:59:38. > :59:41.that they don't focus enough on the really poor people who need them the
:59:42. > :59:45.most. They are often used by people who could afford childcare
:59:46. > :59:50.privately. Very briefly? In Newcastle let me tell you that the
:59:51. > :59:54.really poor people who need them the most really do appreciate that
:59:55. > :59:59.provision through Sure Start Centres and that work is particularly
:00:00. > :00:03.important in Newcastle. That is it from us. Next week we are turning
:00:04. > :00:06.the spotlight on education, asking why the performance of our secondary
:00:07. > :00:11.schools that's behind most other parts of the country. `` is behind.
:00:12. > :00:14.schools that's behind most other those people who want to cycle. We
:00:15. > :00:22.will be returning to this one. Thank you.
:00:23. > :00:29.A little bit of history was made at Prime Minister's Questions this
:00:30. > :00:32.week. A teensy tiny bit. It wasn't David Cameron accusing one MP of
:00:33. > :00:35.taking "mind-altering substances" - they're always accusing each other
:00:36. > :00:38.of doing that. No, it was the first time a Prime Minister used a live
:00:39. > :00:48.tweet sent from someone watching the session as ammunition at the
:00:49. > :00:52.dispatch box. Let's have a look We have had some interesting
:00:53. > :00:56.interventions from front edges past and present. I hope I can break
:00:57. > :01:01.records by explaining that a tweet has just come in from Tony McNulty,
:01:02. > :01:05.the former Labour security minister, saying that the public are
:01:06. > :01:10.desperate for a PM in waiting who speaks for them, not a Leader of the
:01:11. > :01:15.Opposition in dodging in partisan Westminster Village knock about So
:01:16. > :01:20.I would stay up with the tweets if you want to get on the right side of
:01:21. > :01:24.this one! We are working on how the Prime Minister managed to get that
:01:25. > :01:30.wheat in the first place. What did you think when you saw it being read
:01:31. > :01:35.out? I was certainly watching the Daily Politics. I almost fell off my
:01:36. > :01:40.chair! It was quite astonishing He didn't answer the question - he
:01:41. > :01:44.didn't do that the whole time. But I stand by what the tweets said. I
:01:45. > :01:50.have tweeted for a long time on PMQs. Normally I am praising Ed
:01:51. > :01:54.Miliband to the hilt, but no one announces that in Parliament!
:01:55. > :01:59.Because the Prime Minister picked up on what you said, it unleashed some
:02:00. > :02:04.attacks on you from the Labour side. It did, minor attacks from some very
:02:05. > :02:08.junior people. Most people were supportive of what I said. They took
:02:09. > :02:15.issue with the notion of not doing it until 12:30pm, when it wasn't
:02:16. > :02:20.available for the other side to use. Instant history, and instantly
:02:21. > :02:24.forgettable, I would say. Do you think you have started a bit of a
:02:25. > :02:30.trend? I hope not, because the dumbing down of PMQs is already on
:02:31. > :02:38.its way. Most people tweet like mad through PMQs! Is a measure of how
:02:39. > :02:43.post-modern we have become, we have journalists tweeting about someone
:02:44. > :02:47.talking about a tweet. That is the level of British politics. I am
:02:48. > :02:51.horrified by this development. The whole of modern life has become
:02:52. > :02:59.about observing people -- people observing themselves doing things.
:03:00. > :03:03.Do we know what happened? Somebody is monitoring the tweets on behalf
:03:04. > :03:08.of the Prime Minister or the Tory party. They see Tony's tweet. They
:03:09. > :03:12.then print it out and give it to him? There was a suggestion that
:03:13. > :03:22.Michael Goves had spotted it, but Craig Oliver from the BBC had this
:03:23. > :03:27.great sort of... Craig Oliver was holding up his iPad to take pictures
:03:28. > :03:30.of the Prime Minister, which he then tweeted, from the Prime Minister.
:03:31. > :03:35.People will now be tweeting in the hope that they will be quoted by the
:03:36. > :03:40.Prime Minister, or the Leader of the Opposition. I wasn't doing that I'm
:03:41. > :03:48.just talking about the monster you have unleashed! I hope it dies a
:03:49. > :03:53.miserable death. I think Tony is a good analysis -- a good analyst of
:03:54. > :04:05.PMQs on Twitter. Moving onto the Co-op. You were a Co-op-backed MP,
:04:06. > :04:09.white you? I was a Co-op party member. There are two issues here
:04:10. > :04:14.about the Co-op and the Labour Party. All the new music suggests
:04:15. > :04:19.that the Co-op will now have to start pulling back from lending or
:04:20. > :04:23.donating to the Labour Party, which, at a time when Mr Miliband is going
:04:24. > :04:28.through changes that are going to cut of the union funds, it seems
:04:29. > :04:32.quite dangerous. There are three things going on. There's the
:04:33. > :04:36.relationship that the party has politically with the Co-op party,
:04:37. > :04:42.there is the commercial relationship you referred to, and then there is
:04:43. > :04:47.this enquiry into the comings and goings of Flowers and everybody
:04:48. > :04:53.else. The Tories, at their peril, will mix the three up. There's a lot
:04:54. > :04:59.of things going on with a bang. Labour has some issues around
:05:00. > :05:05.funding generally, and they are potentially exacerbated by the Co-op
:05:06. > :05:11.issue. The Labour Party gets soft loans from the Co-op bank, and it
:05:12. > :05:17.gets donations. ?800,000 last year. Ed Balls got about ?50,000 for his
:05:18. > :05:20.private office. You get the feeling, given the state of the Co-operative
:05:21. > :05:26.Bank now, that that money could dry up. We will see. There's lots of
:05:27. > :05:30.speculation in the papers today At the core, the relationship between
:05:31. > :05:35.the Co-op party and the Labour Party is a proud one, and a legitimate
:05:36. > :05:40.one. I don't think others always understand that. Here is an even
:05:41. > :05:48.bigger issue. Is it not possible that the Co-op bank will cease to
:05:49. > :05:58.exist in any meaningful way as a Co-op bank? Is the bane out means it
:05:59. > :06:05.is 70% owned -- the bail out means that it is 70% owned, or 35% going
:06:06. > :06:09.to a hedge fund, I think I read Yes, there is a move from the
:06:10. > :06:17.mutualism of the Co-op. But don t confuse the Co-op bank with the
:06:18. > :06:24.Co-op Group. Others have done that. I haven't. Here's the rub. The soft
:06:25. > :06:37.loans that Labour gets. They got ?1.2 million from this. And 2.4
:06:38. > :06:41.million. They are secured against future union membership fees of the
:06:42. > :06:46.party. What is Mr Miliband doing? He is trying to end that? You have this
:06:47. > :06:52.very difficult confluence of events, which is, could these wonderful soft
:06:53. > :06:57.loans that Labour has had from the Co-op, could they be going? And
:06:58. > :07:02.these union reforms, where Ed Miliband is trying to create a link
:07:03. > :07:06.between individuals and donations to the Labour Party... Clearly, there
:07:07. > :07:10.could be real financial difficulties here. The government needs to be
:07:11. > :07:13.careful, because George Osborne launched one of his classic
:07:14. > :07:17.blunderbuss operations this week, which is that the Labour Party is to
:07:18. > :07:27.blame for Paul Flowers' private life. No, it's not. And that all the
:07:28. > :07:32.problems, essentially... Look at what George Osborne was doing in
:07:33. > :07:35.Europe. He was trying to change the capital requirement rules that would
:07:36. > :07:39.make it easier for the Co-op to take over Lloyd's. If there is to be a
:07:40. > :07:45.big investigation, George Osborne needs to be careful of what he
:07:46. > :07:48.wishes for. This is another example of the Westminster consensus. All of
:07:49. > :07:51.the Westminster parties were in favour of the Britannia takeover.
:07:52. > :07:56.This is how the Co-op ended up with all this toxic rubbish on its
:07:57. > :08:01.balance sheet. All the major parties were in favour of going to get the
:08:02. > :08:09.Lloyds branches. The Tories tried to outdo Labour in being more
:08:10. > :08:14.pro-Co-op. There was nobody in Westminster saying, hold on, this
:08:15. > :08:17.doesn't work. It is like the financial bubble all over again
:08:18. > :08:23.Everyone was in favour of that at the time. I think there is no
:08:24. > :08:27.evidence so far that the storm is cutting through to the average
:08:28. > :08:31.voter. If I were Ed Miliband, I would let it die a natural death. I
:08:32. > :08:37.would not write to an editorial column for a national newspaper on a
:08:38. > :08:41.Sunday. That keeps the issue alive, and it makes him look oversensitive
:08:42. > :08:49.and much better at dishing it out than taking it. I agree about that.
:08:50. > :08:57.The Labour press team tweeted this week saying that it was a new low
:08:58. > :09:05.for the times. And this was re-tweeted by Ed Miliband. It isn't
:09:06. > :09:10.a great press attitude. It is very Moni. Bill Clinton went out there
:09:11. > :09:15.and fought and made the case. So did Tony Blair. If you just say, they
:09:16. > :09:19.are being horrible to us, it looks pathetic. And it will cut through on
:09:20. > :09:27.Osborne and the financial dimensional is, not political. I
:09:28. > :09:35.shall tweet that later! While we have been talking, Mr Miliband has
:09:36. > :09:39.been on Desert Island Discs. He might still be on it. Let's have a
:09:40. > :09:57.listen to what he had to say. # Take on me, take me on.
:09:58. > :10:01.# And threw it all, she offers me protection.
:10:02. > :10:24.# A lot of love and affection. # Whether I'm right or wrong #.
:10:25. > :10:29.# Je Ne Regrette Rien. #. Obviously, that was the music that
:10:30. > :10:34.Ed Miliband chose. Who thought - you would have thought he would
:10:35. > :10:45.choose Norman Lamont's theme tune! He chose Jerusalem... He has no
:10:46. > :10:56.classical background at all. He had no Beethoven, no Elgar. David
:10:57. > :11:07.Cameron had Mendelssohn. And Ernie, the fastest Notman in the West. --
:11:08. > :11:13.fastest milkman. Tony Blair chose the theme tune to a movie. Tony
:11:14. > :11:22.Blair's list was chosen by young staffers in his office. It
:11:23. > :11:27.absolutely was. Tony Blair's list was chosen by staff. The Ed Miliband
:11:28. > :11:33.this was clearly chosen by himself, because who would allow politician
:11:34. > :11:40.to go out there and say that they like Aha. I am the same age as Ed
:11:41. > :11:52.Miliband, and of course he likes Aha. That was the tumour was played
:11:53. > :12:00.in the 80s. Sweet Caroline. It is Angels by Robbie Williams. I was
:12:01. > :12:04.14-year-old girl when that came out. I thought Angels was the staple of
:12:05. > :12:11.hen nights and chucking out time in pubs. The really good thing about
:12:12. > :12:16.his list is that the Smiths to not appear. The Smiths were all over
:12:17. > :12:22.David Cameron's list. The absolutely miserable music of Morris he was not
:12:23. > :12:29.there. What was his luxury? And Indian takeaway! Again, chosen for
:12:30. > :12:39.political reasons. I would agree with the panel about Aha, but I
:12:40. > :12:44.would expect -- I would respect his right to choose. Have you been on
:12:45. > :12:47.Desert Island Discs? I have. It took me three weeks to choose the music.
:12:48. > :12:53.It was the most difficult decision in my life. What was the most
:12:54. > :12:58.embarrassing thing you chose? I didn't choose anything embarrassing.
:12:59. > :13:11.I chose Beethoven, Elgar, and some proper modern jazz. Anything from
:13:12. > :13:16.the modern era? Pet Shop Boys. That's all for today. The Daily
:13:17. > :13:19.Politics will be on BBC Two at lunchtime every day next week, and
:13:20. > :13:22.we'll be back here on BBC One at 11am next week. My luxury, by the
:13:23. > :13:23.way, was a wind-up radio! Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday
:13:24. > :13:31.Politics.