:00:36. > :00:45.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. George Osborne
:00:46. > :00:49.announces a ?50 cut to annual household energy bills. We'll talk
:00:50. > :00:52.to Lib Dem president Tim Farron ahead of the Chancellor's mini
:00:53. > :00:56.budget this week. Net immigration is up for the first
:00:57. > :01:01.time in two years. Labour and the Tories say they want to bring it
:01:02. > :01:10.down, but how? Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper joins us for the
:01:11. > :01:12.Sunday Interview. The harder you shake the pack, the easier it will
:01:13. > :01:17.be for some cornflakes to get to the be for some cornflakes to get to the
:01:18. > :01:18.top. The Mayor of London says inequality and greed are essential
:01:19. > :01:19.to spur economic activity. Schools Minister David Laws says
:01:20. > :01:31.standards need to accepts the housing situation in the
:01:32. > :01:43.capital is now a crisis. Another week, another strategy? Can this one
:01:44. > :01:46.deliver? And with me throughout today's
:01:47. > :01:53.programme, well, we've shaken the packet and look who's risen to the
:01:54. > :01:56.top. Or did we open it at the bottom? Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh
:01:57. > :02:05.and Sam Coates. All three will be tweeting throughout the programme
:02:06. > :02:08.using the hashtag #bbcsp. So, after weeks in which Ed Miliband's promise
:02:09. > :02:11.to freeze energy prices has set the Westminster agenda, the Coalition
:02:12. > :02:13.Government is finally coming up with its answer. This morning the
:02:14. > :02:16.Chancellor George Osborne explained how he plans to cut household energy
:02:17. > :02:20.bills by an average of fifty quid. What we're going to do is roll back
:02:21. > :02:25.the levees that are placed by government on people's electricity
:02:26. > :02:29.bills. This will mean that for the average bill payer, they will have
:02:30. > :02:35.?50 of those electricity and gas bills. That will help families. We
:02:36. > :02:40.are doing it in the way that government can do it. We are
:02:41. > :02:43.controlling the cost that families incurred because of government
:02:44. > :02:46.policies. We are doing it in a way that will not damage the environment
:02:47. > :02:53.or reduce our commitment to dealing with climate change. We will not
:02:54. > :02:58.produce commit men to helping low-income families with the cost of
:02:59. > :03:02.living. Janan, we are finally seeing the coalition begin to play its hand
:03:03. > :03:06.in response to the Ed Miliband freeze? They have been trying to
:03:07. > :03:11.respond for almost ten weeks and older responses have been quite
:03:12. > :03:16.fiddly. We are going to take a bit of tax year, put it onto general
:03:17. > :03:20.taxation, have a conversation with the energy companies, engineered a
:03:21. > :03:26.rebate of some kind, this is not very vivid. The advantage of the
:03:27. > :03:29.idea that they have announced overnight is that it is clear and it
:03:30. > :03:38.has a nice round figure attached to it, ?50. The chief of staff of
:03:39. > :03:43.President Obama, he said, if you are explaining, you're losing. The
:03:44. > :03:48.genius of this idea is that it does not require explanation. He would
:03:49. > :03:52.not drawn this morning on what agreement he had with the energy
:03:53. > :03:56.companies, and whether this would fall through to the bottom of the
:03:57. > :04:00.bill, but the way he spoke, saying, I am not going to pre-empt what the
:04:01. > :04:06.energy companies say, that suggests he has something up his sleeve. Yes,
:04:07. > :04:12.I thought so. The energy companies have made this so badly for so long.
:04:13. > :04:16.It would be awful if he announced this and the energy companies said,
:04:17. > :04:22.we are going to keep this money for ourselves. I do not think he is that
:04:23. > :04:27.stupid. The energy companies have an incentive to go along with this
:04:28. > :04:31.don't they? My worry is that I am not sure how much it will be within
:04:32. > :04:36.the opinion polls. I think people might expect this now, it is not a
:04:37. > :04:44.new thing, it is not an exciting thing. Say in the markets, they may
:04:45. > :04:48.have priced the ten already. If by Thursday of this week, he is able to
:04:49. > :04:53.say, I have a ?50 cut coming to your bill. The energy companies have
:04:54. > :04:58.guaranteed that this will fall through onto your energy bill, and
:04:59. > :05:03.they have indicated to me that they themselves will not put up energy
:05:04. > :05:09.prices through 2014, has he shot the Ed Miliband Fox? I think he has a
:05:10. > :05:14.couple of challenges. It is still very hard. This is an answer for the
:05:15. > :05:16.next 12 months but did is no chance announced that Labour will stop
:05:17. > :05:22.saying they are going to freeze prices in the next Parliament. He
:05:23. > :05:27.will say, I have not just frozen them, I have done that as well and I
:05:28. > :05:32.have cut them. When people look at their energy bills, they are going
:05:33. > :05:37.up by more than ?50. This is a reduction in the amount that they
:05:38. > :05:42.are going up overall. Year on 0 will be for George Osborne. He will
:05:43. > :05:49.have to come up with something this time next year. The detail in the
:05:50. > :05:53.Sunday papers reveals that George Osborne is trying to get the energy
:05:54. > :05:57.companies to put on bills that 50 has been knocked off your bill
:05:58. > :06:02.because of a reduction by the government. He is trying to get the
:06:03. > :06:07.energy companies to do his political bidding for him. It will be
:06:08. > :06:13.interesting to see if they go along with that, because then we will know
:06:14. > :06:16.how cross the arm with Ed Miliband. Let's get another perspective.
:06:17. > :06:19.Joining me now from Kendal in the Lake District is the president of
:06:20. > :06:28.the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Good
:06:29. > :06:33.morning. Let me ask you this, the coalition is rowing back on green
:06:34. > :06:38.taxes, I do comfortable with that or is it something else you will rebel
:06:39. > :06:43.against? I am very comfortable with the fact we are protecting for the
:06:44. > :06:48.money is going. I am open to where the money comes from. The notion
:06:49. > :06:52.that we should stop insulating the homes of elderly people or stop
:06:53. > :06:56.investing in British manufacturing in terms of green industry, that is
:06:57. > :07:01.something that I resolutely oppose, but I am pleased that the funding
:07:02. > :07:06.will be made available for all that. You cannot ignore the fact that for
:07:07. > :07:11.a whole range of reasons, mostly down to the actions of the energy
:07:12. > :07:15.companies, you have prices that are shooting up and affecting lots of
:07:16. > :07:20.people, making life hard. You cannot ignore that. If we fund the
:07:21. > :07:26.installation of homes for older people and others, if we protect
:07:27. > :07:29.British manufacturing jobs, and raise the money through general
:07:30. > :07:36.taxation, I am comfortable with that. It is not clear that is going
:07:37. > :07:40.to happen. It looks like the eco-scheme, whereby the energy
:07:41. > :07:43.companies pay for the installation of those on below-average incomes,
:07:44. > :07:48.they will spin that out over four years, not two years, and one
:07:49. > :07:53.estimate is that that will cost 10,000 jobs. You're always boasting
:07:54. > :08:02.about your commitment to green jobs, how do square that? I do not believe
:08:03. > :08:05.that. The roll-out will be longer. The number of houses reached will be
:08:06. > :08:12.greater and that is a good thing. My take is that it will not affect the
:08:13. > :08:16.number of jobs. People talk about green levies. There has been
:08:17. > :08:24.disparaging language about that sort of thing. There are 2 million people
:08:25. > :08:32.in this country in the lowest income families and they get ?230 off their
:08:33. > :08:36.energy bills because of what isn't -- because of what is disparaging
:08:37. > :08:43.the refer to as green stuff, shall we call it. There will be more
:08:44. > :08:48.properties covered. We both know that your party is being pushed into
:08:49. > :08:54.this by the Tories. You would not be doing this off your own bad. You are
:08:55. > :09:03.in coalition with people who have jettisoned their green Prudential
:09:04. > :09:10.is? -- credentials. You have made my point quite well. David Cameron s
:09:11. > :09:15.panicked response to this over the last few months was to ditch all the
:09:16. > :09:19.green stuff. It has been a job to make sure that we hold him to his
:09:20. > :09:23.pledges and the green cord of this government. That is why we are not
:09:24. > :09:31.scrapping the investment, we are making sure it is funded from
:09:32. > :09:36.general taxation. I am talking to you from Kendal. Lots of people
:09:37. > :09:39.struggle to pay their energy bills. But all these things pale into
:09:40. > :09:43.insignificance compared to the threat of climate change and we must
:09:44. > :09:48.hold the Prime Minister to account on this issue. Argue reconciled to
:09:49. > :09:54.the idea that as long as you're in coalition with the Tories you will
:09:55. > :09:59.never get a mansion tax? I am not reconciled to it. We are trying to
:10:00. > :10:05.give off other tax cut to the lowest income people. What about the
:10:06. > :10:10.mansion tax? That would be potentially paid for by another view
:10:11. > :10:14.source of finance. That would be that the wealthy... We know that is
:10:15. > :10:20.what you want, but you're not going to get that? We will keep fighting
:10:21. > :10:30.for it. It is extremely important. We can show where we will get the
:10:31. > :10:35.money from. I know that is the adamant. That is not what I asked
:10:36. > :10:41.you. Ed Balls and Labour run in favour of a mansion tax, have you
:10:42. > :10:45.talked to them about it? The honest answer is I have not. It is
:10:46. > :10:53.interesting that they have come round to supporting our policy
:10:54. > :10:57.having rejected it in power. So if Labour was the largest party in
:10:58. > :11:03.parliament but not in power, you would have no problem agreeing with
:11:04. > :11:07.a mansion tax as part of the deal? If the arithmetic falls in that way
:11:08. > :11:12.and that is the will of the British people, fear taxes on those who are
:11:13. > :11:17.wealthiest, stuff that is fear, which includes wealth taxes, in
:11:18. > :11:21.order to fund more reductions for those people on lowest incomes, that
:11:22. > :11:30.is the sort of thing that we might reach agreement on. You voted with
:11:31. > :11:33.Labour on the spare room subsidy. Again, that would be job done in any
:11:34. > :11:42.future coalition talks with Labour, correct? I take the view that the
:11:43. > :11:46.spare room subsidy, whilst entirely fail in principle, in practice it
:11:47. > :11:50.has caused immense hardship. I want to see that changed. There are many
:11:51. > :11:57.people in government to share my view on that. So does Labour. The
:11:58. > :12:01.problem was largely caused Labour because they oversaw an increase in
:12:02. > :12:07.housing costs both 3.5 times while they were in power. The government
:12:08. > :12:14.was forced into a position to tidy up an appalling mess that Labour
:12:15. > :12:24.left. You voted with Labour against it, and also, you want... No, I
:12:25. > :12:33.voted with the party conference Let's not dance on the head of the
:12:34. > :12:39.ten. Maybe they voted with me. - on the head of a pin. You are also in
:12:40. > :12:46.favour of a 50% top rate of income tax, so you and Labour are that one
:12:47. > :12:51.there as well? No, I take the view that the top rate of income tax is a
:12:52. > :12:58.fluid thing. All taxation levels are temporary. Nick Clegg said that when
:12:59. > :13:02.the 50p rate came down to 45, that was a rather foolish price tag
:13:03. > :13:07.George Osborne asked for in return for as increasing the threshold and
:13:08. > :13:13.letting several million people out of paying income tax at the bottom.
:13:14. > :13:18.So you agree with Labour? In favour of rising the tax to 50p. I take the
:13:19. > :13:24.view that we should keep our minds open on that. It is not the income
:13:25. > :13:29.tax level that bothers me, it is whether the wealthy pay their fresh
:13:30. > :13:38.air. If that can be done through other taxes, then that is something
:13:39. > :13:45.that I am happy with. -- their fair share. Given your position on the
:13:46. > :13:48.top rate of tax, on the spare room subsidy, how does the prospect of
:13:49. > :13:56.another five years of coalition with the Tories strike you? The answer
:13:57. > :14:01.is, you react with whatever you have about you to what the electorate
:14:02. > :14:07.hand you. Whatever happens after the next election, you have got to
:14:08. > :14:12.respect the will of the people. Yes, but how do you feel about it? We
:14:13. > :14:18.know about this, I am asking for your feeling. Does your heart left
:14:19. > :14:22.or does your heart fall at the prospect of another five years with
:14:23. > :14:26.the Tories? My heart would always follow the prospect of anything
:14:27. > :14:32.other than a majority of Liberal Democrat government. Your heart must
:14:33. > :14:36.be permanently in your shoes then. Something like that, but when all is
:14:37. > :14:41.said and done, we accept the will of the electorate. When you stand for
:14:42. > :14:46.election, you have got to put up with what the electorate say. I have
:14:47. > :14:50.not found coalition as difficult as you might suggest. It is about
:14:51. > :14:56.people who have to disagree and agree to differ. You work with
:14:57. > :15:01.people in your daily life that you disagree with. It is what grown ups
:15:02. > :15:05.do. A lot of people in your party think that your positioning yourself
:15:06. > :15:09.to be the left-wing candidate in a post-Nick Clegg leadership contest.
:15:10. > :15:27.They think it is blatant manoeuvring. One senior figure says,
:15:28. > :15:30.this is about you. Which bit of the sanctimonious, treacherous little
:15:31. > :15:36.man is there not to like? What can I see in response to that. My job is
:15:37. > :15:43.to promote the Liberal Democrats. I have to do my best to consider what
:15:44. > :15:51.I'd defend to be right. By and large, my position as an MP in the
:15:52. > :15:55.Lake District, but also as the president of the party, is to
:15:56. > :16:00.reflect the will of people outside the Westminster village. That is the
:16:01. > :16:06.important thing to do. Thank you for joining us. David Cameron has said
:16:07. > :16:09.he wants to get it down to the tens of thousands, Ed Miliband has
:16:10. > :16:13.admitted New Labour "got it wrong", and Nick Clegg wants to be
:16:14. > :16:15."zero-tolerant towards abuse". Yes, immigration is back on the political
:16:16. > :16:19.agenda, with figures released earlier this week showing that net
:16:20. > :16:22.migration is on the rise for the first time in two years. And that's
:16:23. > :16:26.not the only reason politicians are talking about it again.
:16:27. > :16:30.The issue of immigration has come into sharp focus because of concerns
:16:31. > :16:36.about the number of remaining ins and Bulgarians that can come to the
:16:37. > :16:42.UK next year. EU citizenship grants the right to free movement within
:16:43. > :16:46.the EU. But when Bulgaria and Romania joined in 2007, the
:16:47. > :16:47.government took up its right to apply temporary restrictions on
:16:48. > :16:57.movement. They must be lifted apply temporary restrictions on
:16:58. > :16:58.end of this year. According to the 2011 census, about one eyed 1
:16:59. > :17:05.million of the population in England and Wales is made up of people from
:17:06. > :17:09.countries who joined the EU in 004. The government has played down
:17:10. > :17:14.expectations that the skill of migration could be repeated. This
:17:15. > :17:20.week David Cameron announced new restrictions on the ability of EU
:17:21. > :17:24.migrants to claim benefits. That was two, send a message. That prompted
:17:25. > :17:33.criticism is that the UK risks being seen as a nasty country. Yvette
:17:34. > :17:39.Cooper joins me now for the Sunday interview. Welcome to the Sunday
:17:40. > :17:44.Politics, Yvette Cooper. You criticised the coalition for not
:17:45. > :17:47.acting sooner on immigration from Romania and Bulgaria but the
:17:48. > :17:52.timetable for the unrestricted arrival in January was agreed under
:17:53. > :17:55.Labour many years ago, and given the battle that you had with the Polish
:17:56. > :17:59.and the Hungarians, what preparations did you make in power?
:18:00. > :18:06.We think that we should learn from some of the things that happened
:18:07. > :18:08.with migration. It would have been better to have transitional controls
:18:09. > :18:14.in place and look at the impact of what happened. But what preparations
:18:15. > :18:16.did you make in power? We set out a series of measures that the
:18:17. > :18:23.Government still had time to bring in. It is important that this should
:18:24. > :18:27.be a calm and measured debate. There was time to bring in measures around
:18:28. > :18:32.benefit restrictions, for example, and looking at the impact on the
:18:33. > :18:36.labour market, to make sure you do not have exploitation of cheap
:18:37. > :18:40.migrant Labour which is bad for everyone. I know that but I have
:18:41. > :18:45.asked you before and I am asking again, what did you do? We got
:18:46. > :18:50.things wrong in Government. I understand that I am not arguing.
:18:51. > :18:56.You are criticising them not preparing, a legitimate criticism,
:18:57. > :19:03.but what did you do in power? Well, I did think we did enough. Did you
:19:04. > :19:10.do anything? We signed the agency workers directive but too slowly. We
:19:11. > :19:13.needed measures like that. We did support things like the social
:19:14. > :19:17.chapter and the minimum wage, but I have said before that we did not do
:19:18. > :19:22.enough and that is why we recommended the measures in March. I
:19:23. > :19:27.understand that is what you did in opposition and I take that. I put
:19:28. > :19:31.the general point to you that given your failure to introduce controls
:19:32. > :19:36.on the countries that joined in 2004, alone among the major EU
:19:37. > :19:41.economies we did that, should we not keep an embarrassed silence on these
:19:42. > :19:44.matters? You have no credibility. I think you have got to talk about
:19:45. > :19:47.immigration. One of the things we did not do in Government was
:19:48. > :19:55.discussed immigration and the concerns people have and the
:19:56. > :19:57.long-term benefits that we know have come from people who have come to
:19:58. > :20:00.Britain over many generations contributing to Britain and having a
:20:01. > :20:03.big impact. I think we recognise that there are things that we did
:20:04. > :20:07.wrong, but it would be irresponsible for us not to join the debate and
:20:08. > :20:12.suggest sensible, practical measures that you can introduce now to
:20:13. > :20:17.address the concerns that people have, but also make sure that the
:20:18. > :20:19.system is fair and managed. Immigration is important to Britain
:20:20. > :20:24.but it does have to be controlled and managed in the right way. Let's
:20:25. > :20:29.remind ourselves of your record on immigration. The chart you did not
:20:30. > :20:34.consult when in power. This is total net migration per year under Labour.
:20:35. > :20:41.2.2 million of net rise in migration, more than the population
:20:42. > :20:49.of Birmingham, you proud of that? -- twice the population. Are you proud
:20:50. > :20:52.of that or apologising for it? We set the pace of immigration was too
:20:53. > :20:58.fat and the level was too high and it is right to bring migration down.
:20:59. > :21:04.So you think that was wrong? Overruled have been huge benefits
:21:05. > :21:09.from people that have come to Britain and built our biggest
:21:10. > :21:13.businesses. -- overall. They have become Olympic medal winners. But
:21:14. > :21:17.because the pace was too fast, that has had an impact. That was because
:21:18. > :21:21.of the lack of transitional controls from Eastern Europe and it is why we
:21:22. > :21:25.should learn from that and have sensible measures in place now, as
:21:26. > :21:31.part of what has got to be a calm debate. These are net migration
:21:32. > :21:36.figures. They don't often show the full figure. These are the
:21:37. > :21:40.immigration figures coming in. What that chart shows is that in terms of
:21:41. > :21:47.the gross number coming into this country, from the year 2000, it was
:21:48. > :21:52.half a million a year under Labour. Rising to 600,000 by the time you
:21:53. > :21:56.were out of power. A lot of people coming into these crowded islands,
:21:57. > :22:01.particularly since most of them come to London and the South East. Was
:22:02. > :22:06.that intentional? Was that out of control? Is that what you are now
:22:07. > :22:11.apologising for? What we said was that the Government got the figures
:22:12. > :22:15.wrong on the migration from Eastern Europe. If you remember particularly
:22:16. > :22:20.there was the issue of what happened with not having transitional
:22:21. > :22:24.controls in place. The Government didn't expect the number of people
:22:25. > :22:29.coming to the country to be the way it was. And so obviously mistakes
:22:30. > :22:33.were made. We have recognised that. We have also got to recognise that
:22:34. > :22:38.this is something that has happened in countries all over the world We
:22:39. > :22:41.travel and trade far more than ever. We have an increasingly globalised
:22:42. > :22:45.economy. Other European countries have been affected in the same way,
:22:46. > :22:50.and America, and other developing countries affected in the same way
:22:51. > :22:55.by the scale of migration. I am trying to work out whether the
:22:56. > :22:59.numbers were intentional or if you lost control. The key thing that we
:23:00. > :23:03.have said many times and I have already said it to you many times,
:23:04. > :23:06.Andrew, that we should have a transitional controls in place on
:23:07. > :23:12.Eastern Europe. I think that would have had an impact on them level of
:23:13. > :23:15.migration. We also should have brought in the points -based system
:23:16. > :23:19.earlier. We did bring that in towards the end and it did restrict
:23:20. > :23:22.the level of low skilled migration because there are different kinds of
:23:23. > :23:26.migration. University students coming to Britain brings in billions
:23:27. > :23:30.of pounds of investment. On the other hand, low skilled migration
:23:31. > :23:37.can have a serious impact on the jobs market, pay levels and so on at
:23:38. > :23:40.the low skilled end of the labour market. We have to distinguish
:23:41. > :23:44.between different kinds of migration. You keep trying to excuse
:23:45. > :23:48.the figures by talking about the lack of transitional controls. Can
:23:49. > :23:53.we skip the chart I was going to go to? The next one. Under Labour, this
:23:54. > :23:59.is the source of where migrants came from. The main source was not the
:24:00. > :24:05.accession countries or the remainder of Europe. Overwhelmingly they were
:24:06. > :24:08.from the African Commonwealth, and the Indian subcontinent.
:24:09. > :24:12.Overwhelmingly, these numbers are nothing to do with transitional
:24:13. > :24:16.controls. You can control that immigration entirely because they
:24:17. > :24:21.are not part of the EU. Was that a mistake? First of all, the big
:24:22. > :24:27.increase was in the accession groups. Not according to the chart.
:24:28. > :24:31.In terms of the increase, the changes that happened. Secondly in
:24:32. > :24:34.answer to the question that you just asked me, we should also have
:24:35. > :24:39.introduced the points -based system at an earlier stage. Thirdly there
:24:40. > :24:42.has been a big increase in the number of university students coming
:24:43. > :24:46.to Britain and they have brought billions of pounds of investment. At
:24:47. > :24:50.the moment the Government is not distinguishing, it is just using the
:24:51. > :24:54.figure of net migration. And that is starting to go up again, as you said
:24:55. > :24:58.in the introduction, but the problem is that it treats all kinds of
:24:59. > :25:03.migration is aimed. It does not address illegal immigration, which
:25:04. > :25:07.is a problem, but it treats university graduates coming to
:25:08. > :25:12.Britain in the same way as low skilled workers. If Labour get back
:25:13. > :25:16.into power, is it your ambition to bring down immigration? We have
:25:17. > :25:21.already said it is too high and we would support measures to bring it
:25:22. > :25:25.down. You would bring it down? There is something called student visas,
:25:26. > :25:30.which is not included in the figures, and it does not include
:25:31. > :25:40.university graduates, and it is a figure that has increased
:25:41. > :25:43.substantially in recent years. They come for short-term study but they
:25:44. > :25:46.do not even have to prove that they come for a college course. They do
:25:47. > :25:48.not even have to have a place to come. Those visas should be
:25:49. > :25:50.restricted to prevent abuse of the system and that is in line with a
:25:51. > :25:53.recommendation from the Inspectorate and that is the kind of practical
:25:54. > :25:58.thing that we could do. Can you give us a ballpark figure of how much
:25:59. > :26:03.immigration would fall? You have seen the mess that Theresa May has
:26:04. > :26:07.got into with her figures. She made a target that it is clear to me that
:26:08. > :26:29.she will not meet. I think that is right. She will not meet it. Can you
:26:30. > :26:33.give as a ballpark figure by which we can judge you? If she had been
:26:34. > :26:35.more sensible and taken more time to listen to experts and decide what
:26:36. > :26:38.measures should be targeted, then she would not be in this mess. You
:26:39. > :26:40.cannot give me a figure? She has chosen net migration. She has set a
:26:41. > :26:43.target, without ifs and buts. I think it is important not to have a
:26:44. > :26:45.massive gap between the rhetoric and reality. Not to make promises on
:26:46. > :26:50.numbers which are not responsible. OK, you won't give me a figure.
:26:51. > :26:55.Fine. Moving on to crime. 10,00 front line police jobs have gone
:26:56. > :26:59.since 2010 but crime continues to fall. 7% down last year alone. When
:27:00. > :27:05.you told the Labour conference that you do not cut crime by cutting the
:27:06. > :27:07.police, you were wrong. I think the Government is being very complacent
:27:08. > :27:12.about what is happening to crime. Crime patterns are changing. There
:27:13. > :27:18.has been an exponential increase, and that is in the words of the
:27:19. > :27:26.police, in online crime. We have also seen, for example, domestic
:27:27. > :27:30.violence going up, but prosecutions dropping dramatically. There is a
:27:31. > :27:35.serious impact as a result of not having 10,000 police in place. You
:27:36. > :27:38.have talked about the exponential increase in online and economic
:27:39. > :27:45.crime. If those are the big growth areas, why have bobbies on the beat?
:27:46. > :27:48.That would make no difference. It is about an approach to policing that
:27:49. > :27:52.has been incredibly successful over many years, which Labour introduced,
:27:53. > :27:56.which is neighbourhood policing in the community is working hard with
:27:57. > :28:00.communities to prevent crime. People like to see bobbies on the beat but
:28:01. > :28:05.have you got any evidence that it leads to a reduction in crime?
:28:06. > :28:09.Interestingly, the Lords Stevens commission that we set up, they have
:28:10. > :28:12.reported this week and it has been the equivalent of a Royal
:28:13. > :28:18.commission, looking at the number of people involved in it. Their strong
:28:19. > :28:21.recommendation was that this is about preventing crime but also
:28:22. > :28:24.respectful law and order, working with communities, and so they
:28:25. > :28:28.strongly took the view with all of their expertise and the 30 different
:28:29. > :28:31.universities that they have involved with it, that on the basis of all
:28:32. > :28:37.that analysis, the right thing was to keep bobbies on the beat and not
:28:38. > :28:42.push them cars. Instinctively you would think it was true. More
:28:43. > :28:47.visible policing, less crime. But in all the criminology work, I cannot
:28:48. > :28:51.find the evidence. There is competing work about why there has
:28:52. > :28:55.been a 20 year drop in overall crime and everybody has different opinions
:28:56. > :28:58.on why that has happened. The point about neighbourhood policing is that
:28:59. > :29:05.it is broader than crime-fighting. It is about prevention and community
:29:06. > :29:10.safety. Improving the well-being of communities as well. Will you keep
:29:11. > :29:15.the elected Police Commissioners? Big sigh! What the report said was
:29:16. > :29:21.that the system is flawed. We raised concern about this at the beginning.
:29:22. > :29:27.You will remember at the elections, Theresa May's flagship policy, at
:29:28. > :29:31.the elections they cost ?100 million and there was 15% turnout. You have
:29:32. > :29:37.to have a system of accountability at the police. Three options were
:29:38. > :29:42.presented, all of which are forms. So you have to have reform. It is
:29:43. > :29:52.not whether to have reformed, it is which of those options is the best
:29:53. > :29:58.way to do it. The commission set out a series of options, and I thought
:29:59. > :30:02.that the preferable approach would be collaboration and voluntary
:30:03. > :30:07.mergers. We know they won't volunteer. There have been some
:30:08. > :30:11.collaboration is taking place. I think the issues with police and
:30:12. > :30:15.crime commissioners have fragmented things and made it harder to get
:30:16. > :30:19.collaboration between police forces. Everybody is asking this
:30:20. > :30:27.question, just before you go. What is it like living with a nightmare?
:30:28. > :30:36.Who does all the cooking, so I can't complain! Says Miliband people are
:30:37. > :30:39.wrong, he is a dream cook? He is! In a speech this week, Boris Johnson
:30:40. > :30:43.praised greed and envy as essential for economic progress, and that has
:30:44. > :30:48.got tongues wagging. What is the Mayor of London up to? What is his
:30:49. > :30:58.game plan? Does he even have a game plan and does he know if he has one?
:30:59. > :31:02.Flash photography coming up. Boris. In many ways I can leave it there.
:31:03. > :31:14.You'd know who I meant. And if you didn't, the unruly mop of blonde
:31:15. > :31:16.hair would tell you, the language. Ping-pong was invented on the dining
:31:17. > :31:34.tables of England. Somehow pulling off the ridiculous to the sublime.
:31:35. > :31:37.It is going to go zoink off the scale! But often having to speed
:31:38. > :31:41.away from the whiff-whaff of scandal. Boris, are you going to
:31:42. > :31:45.save your manage? There's always been a question about
:31:46. > :31:48.him and his as role as mayor and another prized position, as hinted
:31:49. > :31:54.to the Tory faithful this year at conference, discussing former French
:31:55. > :32:02.Prime Minister Alan Juppe. -- Alain Juppe. He told me he was going to be
:32:03. > :32:07.the mayor of Bordeaux. I think he may have been mayor well he was
:32:08. > :32:13.Prime Minister, it is the kind of thing they do in funds -- AvD in
:32:14. > :32:22.France. It is a good idea, if you ask me. But is it a joke? He is much
:32:23. > :32:26.more ambitious. Boris wants to be Prime Minister more than anything
:32:27. > :32:34.else. Perhaps more than he wants to be made of London. The ball came
:32:35. > :32:39.loose from the back of the scrum. Of course it would give great thing to
:32:40. > :32:44.have a crack at, but it is not going to happen. He might be right. First,
:32:45. > :32:47.the Conservatives have a leader another Old Etonian, Oxford,
:32:48. > :32:54.Bullingdon chap and he has the job Boris might like a crack at. What do
:32:55. > :32:58.you do with a problem like Boris? It is one of the great paradoxes of
:32:59. > :33:04.Tory politics that for Boris Johnson to succeed, David Cameron must feel.
:33:05. > :33:08.Boris needs David Cameron to lose so that he can stand a chance of
:33:09. > :33:11.becoming loser. -- becoming leader. And disloyalty is punished by
:33:12. > :33:13.Conservatives. Boris knows the man who brought down Margaret Thatcher.
:33:14. > :33:20.Michael Heseltine, who Boris replaced as MP for Henley, never got
:33:21. > :33:30.her job. In 1986, she took on the member for Henley, always a risky
:33:31. > :33:34.venture. And why might he make such a jibe, because he's won two more
:33:35. > :33:43.elections than the PM. Conservatives like a winner. Boris, against Robert
:33:44. > :33:53.expectations, has won the Mayor of London job twice. -- public. He
:33:54. > :33:56.might've built a following with the grassroots but he's on shakier
:33:57. > :34:04.ground with many Tory MPs, who see him as a selfish clown, unfit for
:34:05. > :34:06.high office. And besides, he's not the only one with king-sized
:34:07. > :34:13.ambition, and Boris and George are not close, however much they may
:34:14. > :34:19.profess unity. There is probably some Chinese expression for a
:34:20. > :34:23.complete and perfect harmony. Ying and yang. But in plain black and
:34:24. > :34:27.white, if Boris has a plan, it's one he can't instigate, and if David
:34:28. > :34:32.Cameron is PM in 2016, it may not be implementable. He'd need a seat and
:34:33. > :34:38.it wouldn't be plain sailing if he did make a leadership bid. My
:34:39. > :34:43.leadership chances, I think I may have told you before, or about as
:34:44. > :34:48.good as my chances of ying reincarnated as a baked bean. Which
:34:49. > :34:51.is probably quite high. So if the job you want with Brown-esque desire
:34:52. > :35:00.is potentially never to be yours what do you do? He is, of course, an
:35:01. > :35:04.American citizen by birth. He was born in New York public hospital,
:35:05. > :35:09.and so he is qualified to be President of the United States. And
:35:10. > :35:15.you don't need an IQ over 16 to find that the tiniest bit scary.
:35:16. > :35:21.Giles Dilnot reporting. Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Sam Coates are
:35:22. > :35:27.here. Is there a plan for Boris and if so, what is it? I think the plan
:35:28. > :35:31.is for him to say what he thinks the Tory activist base wants to hear
:35:32. > :35:37.just now. He knows that in 18 months time they can disown it. I think he
:35:38. > :35:43.is wrong, the way the speech has played has a limited number of
:35:44. > :35:46.people. He has cross-party appeal. He has now reconfirmed to people
:35:47. > :35:53.that the Tories are the nasty party and they have been pretending to be
:35:54. > :35:57.modernised. Is it not the truth that he needs David Cameron to lose the
:35:58. > :36:04.2015 election to become leader in this decade? It is very interesting
:36:05. > :36:08.watching his fortunes wax and wane. It always seems to happen in inverse
:36:09. > :36:13.proportion to how well David Cameron is doing in front of his own party.
:36:14. > :36:17.There is no small element of strategy about what we are doing
:36:18. > :36:22.here. The problem with Boris is that he's popular with the country, but
:36:23. > :36:29.hard-core supporters. This was an hard-core supporters. This was an
:36:30. > :36:30.appeal to the grassroots this week. He is not the only potential
:36:31. > :36:38.candidate. If we were in some kind candidate. If we were in some kind
:36:39. > :36:43.of circumstance where Boris was a runner to replace Mr Cameron, who
:36:44. > :36:52.with the other front the? I think it will skip a generation. The recent
:36:53. > :36:57.intake was ideological assertive. I do not buy the idea that it will be
:36:58. > :37:05.Jeremy Hunt against Michael Gove. I then, that generation will be
:37:06. > :37:12.tainted by being in government. It is interesting, what is he trying to
:37:13. > :37:15.pull? He is ideological. He does not believe in many things, but he
:37:16. > :37:20.believes in a few things quite deeply, and one is the idea of
:37:21. > :37:24.competition, both in business and academic selection. He has never
:37:25. > :37:34.been squeamish about expressing that. We do make mistakes sometimes,
:37:35. > :37:37.assuming he is entirely political. Look at all the Northern voters who
:37:38. > :37:40.will not vote for the Tories even though they are socially or economic
:37:41. > :37:47.will not vote for the Tories even the Conservatives. I do not think he
:37:48. > :37:54.helps. Who in the Tories would help? That is a tough question. To
:37:55. > :38:03.reason me has also been speaking to the hard right. -- Theresa May. I
:38:04. > :38:06.have been out with him at night It is like dining with a film star
:38:07. > :38:13.People are queueing up to speak to him. Educational selection is one of
:38:14. > :38:15.the few areas that he can offer He has gone liberal on immigration as
:38:16. > :38:44.are made of London would have to. Good morning. Coming up this week,
:38:45. > :38:50.the schools Minister David Laws says attainment among poor people in
:38:51. > :39:01.North East schools is unacceptable. We have an exclusive interview. With
:39:02. > :39:08.me to discuss education issues are...
:39:09. > :39:14.First, the loss of NPower jobs in Sunderland. With energy bills rising
:39:15. > :39:22.and Labour promising a price freeze, the job losses come at a politically
:39:23. > :39:34.sensitive time. James Wharton who represents four the `` Thornaby has
:39:35. > :39:40.been warning politicians not to score points at this time. We have
:39:41. > :39:44.seen a lot of politicians making quite cheap populist points to try
:39:45. > :39:52.to win over easy votes about energy prices and electricity companies.
:39:53. > :40:00.The reality is that full `` that will impact on jobs, share prices.
:40:01. > :40:08.These are not easy issues to resolve.
:40:09. > :40:14.Let's talk to our politicians here. James Wharton says you are playing
:40:15. > :40:21.politics. It is ironic that the Prime Minister has decided to come
:40:22. > :40:31.round to Labour point of view in asking the energy companies to
:40:32. > :40:37.freeze bills. I do not think we can call it a cheap point any more.
:40:38. > :40:43.People have high bills to pay, and they need as much help as they can
:40:44. > :40:48.get. If we did not have privatised energy companies in the first place,
:40:49. > :40:51.it would be easier to make the changes.
:40:52. > :40:56.Labour is not going to scrap the privatisation of these businesses
:40:57. > :41:02.however? That is right, but we have published a green paper that looks
:41:03. > :41:09.at all of the different ways that we can fix the market during the 20
:41:10. > :41:18.month period when bills would be frozen. I am going to stop you
:41:19. > :41:23.there. Labour was right to point out these job losses in the north`east
:41:24. > :41:34.say something about these companies. You cannot fix the energy
:41:35. > :41:40.market. That is the real problem. If we are going to do something about
:41:41. > :41:45.energy prices, we need to do something significant. I think the
:41:46. > :41:50.best opportunity is something like fracking. Since fighting came into
:41:51. > :42:00.the United States, energy prices have fallen by about 20%. That sort
:42:01. > :42:06.of thing can make a real difference. Some people like the idea fracking,
:42:07. > :42:11.some people it. I do not want to debate that. But these jobs and the
:42:12. > :42:16.behaviour of the company, is the behaviour of NPower indicative of
:42:17. > :42:25.their behaviour to customers as well? Ethic it says and points out
:42:26. > :42:29.that in the north`east we are dependent on too small a of large
:42:30. > :42:41.employers. Some in the private sector is, some public. `` I think
:42:42. > :42:51.it says. But there are lots of new private sector jobs being created.
:42:52. > :42:57.Automotive jobs, renewable jobs. The Conservatives are right that there
:42:58. > :43:03.is a bit of jeopardy here. If you mess with the markets, you hit
:43:04. > :43:12.companies like NPower. I do not think it is a fair claim to make. In
:43:13. > :43:16.the run`up to 1997 when Labour were proposing to have a tax on the
:43:17. > :43:21.profits of utility companies, the Tory government at that time said it
:43:22. > :43:26.would be a disaster, the energy companies will respond badly, but
:43:27. > :43:34.those things it did not happen. We were able to carry that out. It did
:43:35. > :43:41.not have a negative effect. We do need a supply of good jobs in small
:43:42. > :43:48.businesses in the North East. That is something I am passionate about.
:43:49. > :43:56.But the position on quayside, we have seen closures of key
:43:57. > :44:18.employers. `` Teesside. This week saw a prison in the North
:44:19. > :44:21.East taken over by a private company.
:44:22. > :44:24.In the Northumberland countryside, a landmark for over 40 years. Each MP
:44:25. > :44:54.Northumberland. `` `` HMP Northumberland. Sodexho has
:44:55. > :45:03.taken over the running of this prison. They want to cut jobs. They
:45:04. > :45:08.are talking about the redundancy of front`line prison staff, prison
:45:09. > :45:13.officers, principal officers, who will go away from the supervision of
:45:14. > :45:25.prisoners on the ground. There could be a riot , anything. This woman has
:45:26. > :45:32.lived near the prison for 12 years, she is worried about the future. How
:45:33. > :45:48.will they were staff managed to control these prisoners? There could
:45:49. > :46:04.be an escape. Sodexho did not want to be interviewed, but said...
:46:05. > :46:13.If we can bring in new ideas, bring in benefits, that is fine, but that
:46:14. > :46:24.must be on the basis that there are enough officers to ensure its
:46:25. > :46:35.safety. Prison takeovers are something new
:46:36. > :46:43.and there is a `` there is apprehension here.
:46:44. > :46:49.Are people right to be worried? I do not think they need to be worried.
:46:50. > :46:54.We are used to having public services provided by people in the
:46:55. > :46:59.public sector. GPs, dentists, they are all private. As long as things
:47:00. > :47:03.are controlled and regulated in the proper manner, this could deliver
:47:04. > :47:06.better services for less and that sounds like something that is worth
:47:07. > :47:10.looking at. If this saves money for the
:47:11. > :47:16.taxpayer, is more efficient, it is good news? It is putting profit
:47:17. > :47:23.ahead of public safety. It is all very well for Sodexho Justice saying
:47:24. > :47:44.it will be safe and secure, but we have seen the new prison at oak`wood
:47:45. > :47:50.receiving an appalling report the inspectorate.
:47:51. > :47:57.The last Labour government ended up with private prisons. We have not
:47:58. > :48:16.got off lenders roaming the streets. `` off `` offenders. Serco is under
:48:17. > :48:22.investigation by the fraud squad for potential criminal activity. This is
:48:23. > :48:28.the sort of thing we are dealing with.
:48:29. > :48:34.Is this just about the dogma of privatisation? I do not think so.
:48:35. > :48:38.The last Labour government pursued privatisation. There are lots of
:48:39. > :48:45.examples where there are superb public services provided by public
:48:46. > :48:53.servant `` private companies. Neither one nor the other is
:48:54. > :48:59.dogmatically right. Public services provided by public employees is not
:49:00. > :49:08.necessarily always the late thing either. `` always the right thing
:49:09. > :49:17.either. The prison Governors Association have told me that
:49:18. > :49:21.prisons in the public sector now are operating on a benchmarked system
:49:22. > :49:27.now. Every year, schools and colleges in
:49:28. > :49:34.our region seem to celebrate better results. But secondary schools in
:49:35. > :49:43.our region are below average compared to similar schools and
:49:44. > :49:54.other region. `` in other regions. Is it time for radical action?
:49:55. > :49:59.These pupils in Durban speak French. Results here at this community
:50:00. > :50:05.School are on the up. But in other parts of the North East and Cumbria,
:50:06. > :50:10.it is a less positive picture. There are big issues for the North East,
:50:11. > :50:16.we still have a long way to travel in terms of matching the performance
:50:17. > :50:19.of other regions. This goes inspectorate, Ofsted,
:50:20. > :50:53.shares those concerns. It says... As the North East and Cumbria aims
:50:54. > :50:59.to improve education, one area they are looking at very closely is
:51:00. > :51:04.London and schools like this one. Here in the capital, results are
:51:05. > :51:09.gone from being among the worst in the country to among the best. Some
:51:10. > :51:13.put that down to a scheme called London challenge. London challenge
:51:14. > :51:20.is about school to school support and offering challenges to head
:51:21. > :51:24.teachers. You could be directed to schools in London where the
:51:25. > :51:29.expertise lay so you could improve your school's potential. It was very
:51:30. > :51:37.ambitious, saying there is nothing we cannot do? Absolutely. Those lead
:51:38. > :51:42.advisers questioned those headteachers and those schools have
:51:43. > :51:49.improved. The London challenge ran for eight years and saw the biggest
:51:50. > :51:53.improvement among pupils from hard up families. No teachers in the
:51:54. > :51:58.North East are campaigning for a similar approach here. It is
:51:59. > :52:03.important that they have coordination so that schools can
:52:04. > :52:16.work together. The expertise is here already. You would like to see extra
:52:17. > :52:22.money from the government to help with this? I think it will need
:52:23. > :52:34.extra money if it is going to be effective. We do not need huge sums
:52:35. > :52:39.of money. But we do need some additional funding if we are going
:52:40. > :52:43.to buy that time that we need for people to work together effectively.
:52:44. > :52:48.But with Ofsted demanding rapid improvement, that time to improve
:52:49. > :52:56.may be in short supply. We spoke to the schools Minister
:52:57. > :53:01.David Laws. It does worry me that some parts of the country have a
:53:02. > :53:06.lower proportion of good and outstanding schools. We want all
:53:07. > :53:11.parents to be able to access a good or outstanding school and where
:53:12. > :53:20.there is a shortfall in this, we need to take action. Ofsted has gone
:53:21. > :53:26.into Northumberland because it is so worried. If it finds the council is
:53:27. > :53:32.at fault, would you take action? If we find that our local authority is
:53:33. > :53:41.failing in its duties, we will take action. We would expect to make a
:53:42. > :53:45.judgement about whether a particular authority is capable of improving,
:53:46. > :53:58.whether it has a strong plan for improving. One wider concern is the
:53:59. > :54:12.attainment, or lack of attainment, by three school meal pupils. `` free
:54:13. > :54:20.school meals. The premium that we have Britain has only been for a few
:54:21. > :54:24.years. `` that we have put in. We are expecting a massive improvement
:54:25. > :54:36.in the performance of young people from disadvantaged backgrounds. In
:54:37. > :54:40.many parts of the North East, attainment by disadvantaged young
:54:41. > :54:52.people is just not good enough. It is unacceptable to us.
:54:53. > :54:56.Who is to blame for that, is it the schools, the local authorities? We
:54:57. > :55:01.understand why it is difficult for those schools. Often those
:55:02. > :55:06.youngsters are not getting the right support in the home environment. But
:55:07. > :55:10.the experience of London shows that even when youngsters playing into
:55:11. > :55:21.the school environment fireman `` bring into the school environment a
:55:22. > :55:26.lot of problems, the school can do a lot about that. Here in London, we
:55:27. > :55:30.have had a revolution in the performance of disadvantaged
:55:31. > :55:37.youngsters with many of them doing just as well as those from more
:55:38. > :55:41.normal backgrounds. That is the type of improvement they expect to see
:55:42. > :55:48.throughout the country. Michael Gove has talked about a culture of
:55:49. > :55:55.defeatism, do you think that is the problem? I am not going to comment
:55:56. > :56:01.on every school or part of the North East, because I know that there are
:56:02. > :56:05.lots of schools with real aspiration and passion, but sometimes there can
:56:06. > :56:12.be communities with a tradition of economic decline and households
:56:13. > :56:17.where nobody has gone into higher education and sometimes teachers in
:56:18. > :56:22.those areas tell me they have great difficulty in getting aspirations at
:56:23. > :56:31.the right level. Parents and schools need to work together with the
:56:32. > :56:35.government. There are good schools in the
:56:36. > :56:47.north`east, but there appears be a problem, what is to blame? There are
:56:48. > :56:51.good schools, but it is a problem. We have lots of unemployed young
:56:52. > :56:55.people and yet we have skills shortages. Unless we do something
:56:56. > :57:03.about it, we will find those jobs are taken by workers from abroad.
:57:04. > :57:08.What can we do about it? We need a schools challenge in the North East,
:57:09. > :57:12.that was recommended by the recent review. But without the money
:57:13. > :57:17.available to London. There is enough money in the system. The sums of
:57:18. > :57:27.money that are required are available. It has to be the very top
:57:28. > :57:32.of the agenda and all of us have to be involved. This is needs to be
:57:33. > :57:39.involved with local schools. Acting as mentors, guiding the curriculum,
:57:40. > :57:43.giving apprenticeships. It is hard to avoid the conclusion
:57:44. > :57:58.that our council 's shoulder the blame here? `` that our councils. It
:57:59. > :58:03.is very rich of David Laws to point the finger. It is ironic that the
:58:04. > :58:08.London challenge was set up by a Labour government. In the North
:58:09. > :58:13.East, there are some areas that do not perform as well as other areas,
:58:14. > :58:24.but on balance, we do better than our neighbours in Yorkshire and the
:58:25. > :58:38.Humber. In your area of Stockton, 24% of pupils on free school
:58:39. > :58:45.meals... It is not acceptable to point the finger at councils. David
:58:46. > :58:57.Laws is talking about children arriving at school ill`prepared. Yet
:58:58. > :59:00.we have seen cuts to sure start. Underinvestment in school supports
:59:01. > :59:06.services. The educational maintenance allowance scrapped. The
:59:07. > :59:18.connection service has been devastated. And 500 fewer teachers
:59:19. > :59:28.in North East schools. None of those things are exclusive to the North
:59:29. > :59:34.East. But it is worse here. What they should is where there is a
:59:35. > :59:40.focus, there are solutions and improvements that can be put into
:59:41. > :59:49.place. At the end of the day, we have to take local responsibility.
:59:50. > :59:54.Local authorities who have that responsibility have to take the lead
:59:55. > :59:58.for driving the North East schools challenge. That is what they must
:59:59. > :00:14.do. There are some political issues but
:00:15. > :00:20.will always arose passions. `` arouse.
:00:21. > :00:28.Cumbria County Council is planning to cut all subsidies for buses.
:00:29. > :00:43.Added 70 services are likely to disappear. `` aren't 70 services.
:00:44. > :00:52.Does the Minister think it is right that a London`based company wants to
:00:53. > :01:08.place two wind turbines bigger than the London eye in our region?
:01:09. > :01:14.The issue of apprenticeships was debated. They have only been at work
:01:15. > :01:20.for a year, but now a review commissioned by Labour says police
:01:21. > :01:24.and crying commissioners should be abolished. `` Police and
:01:25. > :01:25.and crying commissioners should be picked out. People thought
:01:26. > :01:41.touching on eugenics and things like that. That is all we have time for.
:01:42. > :01:47.Thank you. What rabbit has George Osborne got up his sleeve? And
:01:48. > :01:54.what's David Cameron up to in China? All questions for The Week Ahead. To
:01:55. > :02:02.help the panel led, we are joined by Kwasi Kwarteng, Tory MP. Welcome to
:02:03. > :02:06.the Sunday Politics. Why has the government been unable to move the
:02:07. > :02:10.agenda and to the broad economic recovery, and allowed the agenda to
:02:11. > :02:15.stay on Labour's ground of energy prices and living standards? Energy
:02:16. > :02:19.has been a big issue over the last few months but the autumn state and
:02:20. > :02:23.will be a wonderful opportunity to readdress where we are fighting the
:02:24. > :02:29.ground, the good economic news that we delivered. If you look at where
:02:30. > :02:33.Labour were earlier this year, people were saying they would they 5
:02:34. > :02:43.million people unemployed. They were saying that there should be a plan
:02:44. > :02:47.B. He is not in the Labour Party? Elements of the left were suggesting
:02:48. > :02:52.it. Peter Hain told me it would be up to 3 million people. Danny
:02:53. > :02:57.Blanchflower said it would be 5 million people. So we have got to
:02:58. > :03:03.get the economy back to the centre of the debate? Yes, the game we were
:03:04. > :03:06.playing was about the economy. That was the central fighting ground of
:03:07. > :03:11.the political debate. We were winning that battle. Labour have
:03:12. > :03:16.cleverly shifted it onto the cost of living. It is essential that the
:03:17. > :03:27.government, that George, talks about the economy. That has been its great
:03:28. > :03:30.success. I do not think this has been a week of admitting that Labour
:03:31. > :03:37.was right, plain cigarettes packaging, other issues. If you look
:03:38. > :03:43.at the big picture, where we are with the economy, we have the
:03:44. > :03:47.fastest growing economy in the G-7. Despite Labour's predictions, none
:03:48. > :03:53.of this has happened, none of the triple dip has happened. The British
:03:54. > :03:59.economy is on a good fitting. That is a good story for the government
:04:00. > :04:02.to bat on. You say that people have stopped talking about the economic
:04:03. > :04:08.recovery, but it is worse than that, people have stopped talking about
:04:09. > :04:11.the deficit? As long as people were talking about the deficit, the
:04:12. > :04:17.Tories were trusted. But people have forgotten about it. This country
:04:18. > :04:24.still spends ?100 billion more than it raises. Yes, I am of the view
:04:25. > :04:29.that the deficit, the national debt, is the biggest question facing
:04:30. > :04:32.this generation of politicians. You are right to suggest that the
:04:33. > :04:39.Conservative Party was strong on this. That head, not deficit, is not
:04:40. > :04:44.going to come down in the foreseeable future? It is rising.
:04:45. > :04:48.This is a test that George Osborne is not going to pass. We know what
:04:49. > :04:53.is coming in the Autumn Statement, it is lots of giveaways, paying for
:04:54. > :04:58.free school meals, paying for fuel duty subsidies. We are still talking
:04:59. > :05:04.about the cost of living, not changing it actively wider economy.
:05:05. > :05:11.There might be extra money for growth but it is not clear what will
:05:12. > :05:15.happen to that. If it is time for giveaways, let's speak about Labour.
:05:16. > :05:23.I have never been a fan of giveaways. Fiscal prudence is what
:05:24. > :05:27.our watchword should be. Look at the headlines. Each time, the deficit
:05:28. > :05:33.figures, the debt figures, were always worse than predicted. This
:05:34. > :05:39.year it will be significantly better. I think that is significant.
:05:40. > :05:44.Any kind of recovery is probably better than no recovery at all. When
:05:45. > :05:50.you look at this recovery, it is basically a consumer spending boom.
:05:51. > :05:57.Consumer spending is up, business investment is way down compared with
:05:58. > :06:02.2008, and exports, despite a 20 devaluation, our flat. Let's get one
:06:03. > :06:09.thing straight, it is a recovery. Any recovery is better than no
:06:10. > :06:14.recovery. Now we can have a debate about, technical debate about the
:06:15. > :06:20.elements of the recovery. It is not technical, it is a fact. There is
:06:21. > :06:26.evidence that there is optimism in terms of what are thinking...
:06:27. > :06:31.Optimism? If I am optimistic about the economy, I am more likely to
:06:32. > :06:37.spend money and invest in business. So far you have not managed that?
:06:38. > :06:42.Exports have not done well either? Exports are not a big section of the
:06:43. > :06:48.British economy. But of course, they are important. But given where we
:06:49. > :06:53.were at the end of last year, no economist was saying that we would
:06:54. > :07:00.be in this robust position today. That is true, in terms of the
:07:01. > :07:04.overall recovery. Now the PM loves to "bang the drum abroad for British
:07:05. > :07:07.business" and he's off to China this evening with a plane-load of British
:07:08. > :07:38.business leaders. And it's not the first time. Take a look at this
:07:39. > :08:03.Well, you might not think exports unimportant, but clearly the Prime
:08:04. > :08:09.Minister and the Chancellor do. They are important, but they are not what
:08:10. > :08:13.is driving the growth at the moment. We used to talk about the need for
:08:14. > :08:18.export led recovery is, that is why the Prime Minister is going to
:08:19. > :08:23.China. Absolutely, and he's doing the right thing. Do we have any
:08:24. > :08:29.evidence that these tend of trips produce business? The main example
:08:30. > :08:34.so far is the right to trade the Chinese currency offshore. London
:08:35. > :08:40.has a kind of global primacy. London will be the offshore centre. Is that
:08:41. > :08:44.a good thing? I have no problem at all with this sort of policy. I do
:08:45. > :08:48.not think that Britain has been doing this enough compared with
:08:49. > :08:54.France and Germany in recent years. I am optimistic in the long term
:08:55. > :09:01.about this dish -- about British exports to China. China need machine
:09:02. > :09:05.tools and manufacturing products. In 20 years time, China will be buying
:09:06. > :09:11.professional groups, educational services, the things we excel at.
:09:12. > :09:16.All we need to do is consolidate our strengths, stand still and we will
:09:17. > :09:19.move forward. The worst thing we can do is reengineer the economy towards
:09:20. > :09:26.those services and away from something else. We have a lot of
:09:27. > :09:31.ground to make up, Helen? At one stage, it is no longer true, but at
:09:32. > :09:34.one stage you could say that we exported more to Ireland, a country
:09:35. > :09:43.of 4 million people, than we did to Russia, China, India, Brazil, all
:09:44. > :09:49.combined. I believe we form 1% of Chinese imports now. The problem is
:09:50. > :09:55.what you have to give up in exchange for that. It is a big problem for
:09:56. > :10:02.David Cameron's credibility that he has had to row back on his meeting
:10:03. > :10:06.with the Dalai llama. This trip we have been in the deep freeze with
:10:07. > :10:11.China for a couple of years. This trip has come at a high cost. We
:10:12. > :10:15.have had to open up the City of London to Chinese banks without much
:10:16. > :10:19.scrutiny, we have had to move the date of the Autumn Statement, and
:10:20. > :10:24.there is no mention of human rights. It is awkward to deal with that all
:10:25. > :10:32.in the name of getting up to where we were a few years ago. A month
:10:33. > :10:35.after strong anchor -- one month after Sri Lanka, where he apologised
:10:36. > :10:42.three human rights abuses, this is difficult to take. Do we have any
:10:43. > :10:46.idea what the Prime Minister hopes to do in China this time? I am not
:10:47. > :10:51.sure there is anything specific but when you go to these countries,
:10:52. > :10:55.certainly in the Middle East China, they complain, why has the Prime
:10:56. > :11:00.Minister not come to see us? That is very important. High-level
:11:01. > :11:05.delegations from other countries go to these places because the addict
:11:06. > :11:17.-- because they are important export markets. You might look at the Prime
:11:18. > :11:21.Minister playing cricket over there, and wonder, what is that for? I do
:11:22. > :11:26.not mind the Prime Minister Rajoy cricket. This is a high visibility
:11:27. > :11:32.mission, chose that politicians in Britain care. You are part of the
:11:33. > :11:36.free enterprise group. It had all sorts of things on it like tax cuts
:11:37. > :11:44.for those on middle incomes or above the 40% bracket, tax cuts worth 16
:11:45. > :11:50.billion. You will get none of that on Thursday, we are agreed? No. But
:11:51. > :11:57.he does have two budgets between now and the election and if the fiscal
:11:58. > :12:00.position is using a little bit, he may have more leeway than it looked
:12:01. > :12:07.like a couple of months ago. Yes, from a free enter prise point of
:12:08. > :12:12.view, we have looked at the tax cuts that should be looked at. The 4 p
:12:13. > :12:18.rate comes in at quite a low level for people who, in the south-east,
:12:19. > :12:24.do not feel particularly wealthy. They are spending a lot of money on
:12:25. > :12:28.commuting, energy bills. The Chancellor has been very open about
:12:29. > :12:33.championing this. He says that the 40p rate will kick in at a slightly
:12:34. > :12:38.higher rate. Labour had a bad summer and the opinion polls seem to be
:12:39. > :12:44.narrowing. Then they had a good hearty conference season. The best.
:12:45. > :12:48.Has the Labour lead solidified or increased the little, maybe up to
:12:49. > :12:52.eight points? If it is a good Autumn Statement, or the Tories start to
:12:53. > :12:59.narrow that lead by the end of the year? If they go into 2014 trailing
:13:00. > :13:03.by single digits, they cannot complain too much. That gives them
:13:04. > :13:09.18 months to chip away at Labour's lead. But do they do that chipping
:13:10. > :13:13.away by eight bidding Labour or do they let time take its course and
:13:14. > :13:18.let the economic recovery continue, maybe business investment joins
:13:19. > :13:21.consumer spending as a source of that recovery, and a year from now,
:13:22. > :13:30.household disposable income begins to rise? That is a better hope than
:13:31. > :13:32.engaging in a bidding war. Be assured, they will be highly
:13:33. > :13:36.political budgets. That's all for today. The Daily Politics is on BBC
:13:37. > :13:39.Two at midday all this week, except on Thursday when we'll start at
:13:40. > :13:41.10:45 to bring you live coverage and analysis of the Chancellor's Autumn
:13:42. > :13:45.Statement in a Daily Politics special for BBC Two and the BBC News
:13:46. > :13:48.Channel. Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.