:00:37. > :00:44.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Nick Clegg says
:00:45. > :00:49.Chris Rennard must apologise. "What for?", say his friends. We'll ask
:00:50. > :00:51.senior Lib Dem minister Danny Alexander whose side he's on.
:00:52. > :00:56.What about the voters? What do they Alexander whose side he's on.
:00:57. > :00:57.make of the Lib Dems? We hear the views of a Sunday Politics focus
:00:58. > :01:09.group. A In the North East:
:01:10. > :01:23.budget cuts. In Portsmouth MP Penny Mordaunt's
:01:24. > :01:24.plunge from the highboard from who else but the Minister for
:01:25. > :01:28.Portsmouth. And with me, as always, the best and
:01:29. > :01:33.the brightest political panel in the business: and in London, Boris
:01:34. > :01:36.Johnson has pledged to recruit more volunteers. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis
:01:37. > :01:48.and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:49. > :01:50.First this morning, Nick Clegg is considering a fresh investigation
:01:51. > :01:59.into the behaviour of the party s former chief executive, Lord
:02:00. > :02:02.Rennard. Last week, a lawyer appointed by the party decided that
:02:03. > :02:05.no action could be taken against him, but that women who had accused
:02:06. > :02:08.the Lib Dem peer of inappropriate behaviour "were broadly credible".
:02:09. > :02:18.More than 100 party activists are demanding an apology. Chris Rennard
:02:19. > :02:22.say he's nothing to apologise for and the party whip must be returned
:02:23. > :02:27.to him. Helen, this is not going away. It is turning into a crisis
:02:28. > :02:35.for the Lib Dems? They have only got seven female MPs. There is no female
:02:36. > :02:39.Cabinet Minister. There is a reasonable chance that after the
:02:40. > :02:42.next election there might in no female Liberal Democrat MPs at all.
:02:43. > :02:49.A scandal like this will not encourage women into the party. Have
:02:50. > :02:51.they made a complete mess of it You feel for Nick Clegg, because he
:02:52. > :02:58.launched an utterly rigorous process. He called in a QC. The QC
:02:59. > :03:04.looked at it and decided that the evidence did not meet the burden of
:03:05. > :03:07.proof in a criminal trial. But clearly he felt that the evidence
:03:08. > :03:16.from these women was very credible and serious. He said it was broadly
:03:17. > :03:20.credible. Clearly it was serious. Rennard is being advised by Lord
:03:21. > :03:24.Carlisle, fellow Liberal Democrat peer, who is giving purely legal
:03:25. > :03:30.advice. He is saying it has not reached that edge-mac, so do not
:03:31. > :03:35.apologise. This is a political issue, so the agony continues. Nick
:03:36. > :03:40.Clegg was hoping to keep the party whip withdrawn. But they did not
:03:41. > :03:46.launch an enquiry, the Webster enquired it was not an enquiry, it
:03:47. > :03:51.was a legal opinion. You're right, it was an internal opinion. The Lib
:03:52. > :03:56.Dems distinguished themselves from the other two parties not with
:03:57. > :04:00.policy, but with ethics. They presented themselves as being
:04:01. > :04:03.cleaner, and in possession of more Robert Jay than Labour and the
:04:04. > :04:18.Conservatives. That will be harder to do now. -- more probity. There
:04:19. > :04:22.are a Lib Dem peers that are more relaxed about taking him back and
:04:23. > :04:28.letting him pick up the party whip. That is the problem. There is a
:04:29. > :04:31.generational issue. The older Lib Dems in the House of Lords, the kind
:04:32. > :04:36.of thing, he did not do anything that wrong. The younger activists
:04:37. > :04:42.and those outside the House of Lords, they think it is a pollen.
:04:43. > :04:47.Yes, there is definitely a sort of what you are complaining about sort
:04:48. > :04:54.of thing. That is symptomatic of a cultural difference. The report last
:04:55. > :04:58.year found that they tried to manage the allegations. They did not do
:04:59. > :05:02.what any company would do if there was an allegation of sexual
:05:03. > :05:08.harassment. If there had not in the by-election in Eastleigh, this story
:05:09. > :05:13.may not have got the attention it did. Channel four news are the one
:05:14. > :05:18.that really drove this. Without their reporting, this might not have
:05:19. > :05:20.come out. It is not going to go away, because the issue of whether
:05:21. > :05:29.he gets the party whip back will come week. -- will come up this
:05:30. > :05:33.week. So it's not been a great week for
:05:34. > :05:36.the Liberal Democrats and none of this will help public perceptions of
:05:37. > :05:39.a party already struggling in the polls. In a moment, I'll be talking
:05:40. > :05:42.to the second most senior Liberal Democrat in the land, Danny
:05:43. > :05:45.Alexander. First, Adam Fleming went to Glasgow to find out what voters
:05:46. > :05:48.there made of the party. Let's put the Lib Dems under the
:05:49. > :05:51.microscope in Glasgow. We have recruited some Glaswegians who have
:05:52. > :05:56.voted for them, and some who have not. Hello, John. Let's get started.
:05:57. > :05:58.I will be watching them through the one-way mirror, along with the
:05:59. > :06:02.former Liberal Democrat MP John Barrett. Let's get to the heart of
:06:03. > :06:05.the matter straightaway. If the Lib Dems were a biscuit, what would they
:06:06. > :06:12.be? Tunnock's Teacake. Hard on the outside but soft in the middle. They
:06:13. > :06:19.give in. There is no strength of character there. They just give in
:06:20. > :06:29.to whoever. Ouch. Rich Tea. A bit bland and boring. Melts and crumbles
:06:30. > :06:32.under any sort of heat and pressure. Morrison's own brand of biscuit not
:06:33. > :06:35.top of the range like Marks Spencer or Sainsbury's or Waitrose.
:06:36. > :06:45.A custard cream, sandwiched between David Cameron and the Tories. I
:06:46. > :06:49.think they were concerned that they had one exterior, but something else
:06:50. > :06:52.was really inside. They did not find it too definitive, too clear, too
:06:53. > :07:01.concise, too tasty, too appealing. Which means? It is a worry. If that
:07:02. > :07:06.is their gut reaction, literally, let's find out what is behind it.
:07:07. > :07:10.The context of them being stuck between a rock and a hard place for
:07:11. > :07:17.them as a party, I feel slightly sorry for them. I think people who
:07:18. > :07:22.voted for them will think they are victims as well, being sold down the
:07:23. > :07:25.river by going to the coalition I think the ones, particularly student
:07:26. > :07:32.fees, that was an important one to a lot of people. People felt cheated.
:07:33. > :07:35.I agree. Just going back on that, so publicly and openly, it makes you
:07:36. > :07:44.think, well, what do they stand for? It is trust. Harsh. But our group is
:07:45. > :07:48.feeling quite upbeat about the state of the economy. What have the Lib
:07:49. > :07:54.Dems contributed to that? I am not quite sure. It is George Osborne, a
:07:55. > :08:00.Conservative, who is the Chancellor, so it is mostly down to him. The
:08:01. > :08:04.Liberal Democrats are mostly on their coat tails, if you know what I
:08:05. > :08:08.mean. Have the Lib Dems done anything, anyone? I think the
:08:09. > :08:12.Liberal Democrats were responsible for increasing the tax allowance,
:08:13. > :08:16.?10,000 for next year. I think they have played a major role in that.
:08:17. > :08:24.Yes. I am glad somebody noticed that. We will have helped everyone
:08:25. > :08:32.who is receiving a salary, and it is interesting that nobody has
:08:33. > :08:41.mentioned that. Now, let's talk about personalities. Everyone knows
:08:42. > :08:45.him, but what about say, this guy? Alexander. Danny, they got it
:08:46. > :08:49.straightaway. I actually quite like him. I think he talks very clearly
:08:50. > :08:56.and it is easy to understand what he says. Fellow redhead Charles Kennedy
:08:57. > :08:59.is popular as well. He is very charismatic and it is through him
:09:00. > :09:07.that I voted Liberal the last few times. But who is this? I recognise
:09:08. > :09:09.him but I cannot tell you his name. That is the party's leader in
:09:10. > :09:12.Scotland, Willie Rennie, and the party's role in the upcoming
:09:13. > :09:16.referendum on independence draws a blank as well. It does not feel like
:09:17. > :09:34.they have featured, it is SNP and Labour and Conservative. They are
:09:35. > :09:37.last in a four horse race. We have been talking about the biggest issue
:09:38. > :09:40.in Scottish politics, independence and the referendum and the Lib Dems
:09:41. > :09:44.are nowhere. They are not mentioned and they seem to think it is all
:09:45. > :09:47.about Labour and the SNP. The Lib Dems are part of the Better Together
:09:48. > :09:50.campaign and we are being drowned out among that. Looking to the
:09:51. > :09:56.future, what messages do voters have for the Lib Dems? Get a backbone. Do
:09:57. > :10:02.not go back on your policies or your word. Be strong and decisive. If you
:10:03. > :10:09.will pardon the expression, man up. DIY, do it yourself. Do not award
:10:10. > :10:17.bankers and other people for failure. Stand up. Be your own
:10:18. > :10:21.person, party. If that focus group represented the whole country, what
:10:22. > :10:26.would the result for the Lib Dems be at 2015 in the election? If they get
:10:27. > :10:31.the message across between now and then, the result could be OK. If
:10:32. > :10:35.they do not get the message across, the result could be disaster. Maybe
:10:36. > :10:41.they would do a lot better on their own. I do not think you are seeing
:10:42. > :10:45.the true Lib Dems because they are in the coalition. They maybe deserve
:10:46. > :10:49.another chance. Crucially for the Lib Dems, that means there is some
:10:50. > :10:58.hope, but there is also plenty of anger, some disappoint, and a bit of
:10:59. > :11:01.bafflement as well. And watching that with me, senior
:11:02. > :11:06.Liberal Democrat and Chief Secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander
:11:07. > :11:11.Welcome to the programme. One of the things that comes through from the
:11:12. > :11:15.focus group is that if there is any credit around for the economic
:11:16. > :11:21.recovery, it is the Tories that are getting it, and you are not? What
:11:22. > :11:25.can you do about that? The first thing to say is that the economy
:11:26. > :11:29.would not be recovering if it was not for the Liberal Democrats. If it
:11:30. > :11:33.was not for our decision right beginning in 2010 to form a strong,
:11:34. > :11:37.stable coalition government that to deal with the problems, we would
:11:38. > :11:43.still be in the mess that Labour left us with. Why are you not
:11:44. > :11:50.getting the credit? That was one focus group. It was interesting to
:11:51. > :11:54.hear opinions. We have to work very hard to get across the message that
:11:55. > :11:59.the economy would not be recovering without the Liberal Democrats.
:12:00. > :12:01.People would not be seeing the largest income tax cuts for a
:12:02. > :12:07.generation without the Liberal Democrats. The ?10,000 threshold
:12:08. > :12:11.that one of the people referred to is coming into peoples pay packets
:12:12. > :12:20.this year. Lots of people recognise that. There was the one person in
:12:21. > :12:23.the focus groups. This is your measure of success, raising the
:12:24. > :12:27.people at which people pay income tax. But most of the voters do not
:12:28. > :12:32.even give you credit for that. The role that we haven't British
:12:33. > :12:36.politics as a party, is that we are the only party that can be trusted
:12:37. > :12:42.to deliver a fair society and a strong economy. People know they
:12:43. > :12:46.cannot trust the Labour Party. We saw it again from Ed Miliband this
:12:47. > :12:55.morning. You cannot trust the Labour Party with the nation's finances. It
:12:56. > :13:00.may well be your policy, the income tax threshold, but it is the Tories
:13:01. > :13:05.that are getting the credit? I do not think that is true. I have spent
:13:06. > :13:08.lots of time meeting photos and lots of people recognise that if it was
:13:09. > :13:13.not for the Liberal Democrats, people would not be seeing those tax
:13:14. > :13:18.cuts. We are helping disadvantaged children in schools. It is right
:13:19. > :13:22.that we have to work very hard between now and polling day to do
:13:23. > :13:27.several things, to make sure that we secure the recovery, there can be no
:13:28. > :13:31.complacency. The economic recovery is in its early stages and we need
:13:32. > :13:35.to make sure it is sustainable. We need to make sure the benefits of
:13:36. > :13:40.the recovery are shared out people who have made sacrifices, people on
:13:41. > :13:47.low pay, people who have seen their savings are eroded. The Tories have
:13:48. > :13:50.now hijacked another Lib Dem policy, another big hike in the
:13:51. > :13:55.minimum wage. You spoke about the need to make sure that people on low
:13:56. > :14:01.pay benefit from the recovery, a big hike in the minimum wage. Did the
:14:02. > :14:06.Chancellor consulting on this? We have been talking about it for some
:14:07. > :14:11.time. Vince Cable asked the low pay commission for advice on this. Why
:14:12. > :14:16.did Vince Cable not make this announcement, why was it the
:14:17. > :14:20.Chancellor? Let me say a few other things about this. If we are going
:14:21. > :14:24.to secure the recovery, this year we have to make sure that businesses
:14:25. > :14:29.start investing. We have got to get Roddick typically rising. An
:14:30. > :14:34.increase in the minimum wage is something that needs to follow that.
:14:35. > :14:36.We will not do it unless the low pay commission adviser as it is
:14:37. > :14:42.important for the economy at this stage. Did you know the Chancellor
:14:43. > :14:45.was coming out with that statement? I did not know he was going to say
:14:46. > :14:52.something on that particular day. We have worked together on it in the
:14:53. > :14:57.tragedy to see what the economic impact would be, and to emphasise
:14:58. > :15:02.that it is the commission, which has credibility with business, trade
:15:03. > :15:07.unions and government. It must not be a politically motivated increase.
:15:08. > :15:11.So you did not know, and Vince Cable, and it is properly a matter
:15:12. > :15:20.for him as the Business Secretary, he did not make the announcement? I
:15:21. > :15:26.don't think that's right. I don t clear every word I say with him I
:15:27. > :15:34.don't expect him to do the same to me. The Lib Dems have told us before
:15:35. > :15:40.it was the Treasury that was blocking this from happening. We
:15:41. > :15:45.were going to ask the low pay commission to advise us on bringing
:15:46. > :15:50.the minimum wage back up. During the financial crisis, wages have been
:15:51. > :15:59.lower-than-expected but it's also right, we shouldn't act in a hasty
:16:00. > :16:04.way, we should listen to what the commission has to say, and if they
:16:05. > :16:09.don't recommend an increase we have to make sure economic conditions are
:16:10. > :16:14.there to get it right. Not only are the Tories getting credit for that,
:16:15. > :16:19.our Scottish voters group showed that people have still not forgiven
:16:20. > :16:23.you for ratting on tuition fees and that was a broken promise that
:16:24. > :16:29.didn't even apply to the people in Scotland, where there are no tuition
:16:30. > :16:37.fees! Nick Clegg has been very clear about the issues that that brought
:16:38. > :16:42.up. If you look at our manifesto, the University of London said we
:16:43. > :16:47.delivered about 70% of our policies in the manifesto. They haven't
:16:48. > :16:56.forgiven you for the big one. The big promise we made was to cut
:16:57. > :17:02.income tax the millions of people. That is a policy which is putting
:17:03. > :17:07.money back into the pockets of working people. It is only possible
:17:08. > :17:11.because we are delivering our economic plan in government with the
:17:12. > :17:18.Conservatives. Now we have to make sure, through tax cuts, through
:17:19. > :17:21.looking at issues like the minimum wage and other groups who have made
:17:22. > :17:28.sacrifices, make sure that benefit is shared. I am not going to agree
:17:29. > :17:32.to anything which undermines the confidence of businesses to invest
:17:33. > :17:40.in this country over the next 1 months. Speaking of Scotland, the
:17:41. > :17:45.Lib Dems, why do they now look largely irrelevant in the battle for
:17:46. > :17:51.the union? Not one of our focus group even knew who your Scottish
:17:52. > :17:58.leader is. I don't accept that. I have spent a lot of time with
:17:59. > :18:04.Alistair Carmichael and others, we are all making the case every day.
:18:05. > :18:09.If Scotland votes to be independent, it will be in a much worse financial
:18:10. > :18:16.position within the European Union. Scotland will be contributing to the
:18:17. > :18:21.rebate for the UK, rather than benefiting from it. It has been a
:18:22. > :18:26.disaster for your Scottish based to have joined a coalition with the
:18:27. > :18:30.Tories. It may have been the right thing to do, you say it is in the
:18:31. > :18:36.national interest, but Scottish Lib Dems did not expect to be in a
:18:37. > :18:39.coalition with the Tories. By the way I think it is also in the
:18:40. > :18:46.national interests and the interests of the people for Scotland, cutting
:18:47. > :18:52.the income tax of Scottish people, stabilising the economy. We are now
:18:53. > :18:59.seeing good growth. But you are in meltdown. I don't accept that. We
:19:00. > :19:05.will see what happens in the 20 5 election. I think we have a record
:19:06. > :19:09.to be proud of, we have played a very important role in clearing up
:19:10. > :19:12.the mess Labour made in the economy, of making sure the
:19:13. > :19:19.Coalition government tackles the problems in this country, but does
:19:20. > :19:23.so in a fair way. I think the biggest risks to the economic
:19:24. > :19:27.recovery over the next few years is either a majority Labour government
:19:28. > :19:32.or a majority Conservative government. Labour you cannot trust
:19:33. > :19:36.with the finances, the Tories want us to play chicken with the European
:19:37. > :19:40.Union which would truly be a disaster to investment in this
:19:41. > :19:45.country. You announced this week that if Scotland votes to leave the
:19:46. > :19:51.UK, it would be the British Treasury that would guarantee all British
:19:52. > :19:54.government debt. There wouldn't be a negotiation, but the backstop would
:19:55. > :19:59.be that even if they didn't take anything, we would still guarantee
:20:00. > :20:04.the debt. What was happening in the markets that you needed to calm them
:20:05. > :20:10.down? We were getting quite a few questions from the people we rely on
:20:11. > :20:15.to lend us money. We are still borrowing billions of pounds every
:20:16. > :20:26.month as a country. Those people were asking us to clarify this
:20:27. > :20:33.point. It was becoming a serious concern? It wasn't reflected in the
:20:34. > :20:38.guilty yields. I follow the bond market quite carefully and there was
:20:39. > :20:44.no sign this was having an impact. That's why the right thing to do was
:20:45. > :20:49.to clarify this point now, rather than the concerns being reflected in
:20:50. > :20:53.what you imply, and I think it is a bad idea for Scotland to vote for
:20:54. > :20:57.separation but it would be wrong to allow for the fact that question is
:20:58. > :21:00.on the table to cost taxpayers in the UK more money and higher
:21:01. > :21:05.interest payments simply because Alex Salmond has put that question
:21:06. > :21:10.on the table. That's why I think it was the right thing to do. There
:21:11. > :21:16.were a lot of calls from the focus group that you need to be different.
:21:17. > :21:20.Nick Clegg has embarked on this aggressive differentiation. Where
:21:21. > :21:25.you can be different is the bankers' bonuses. What conceivable
:21:26. > :21:33.reason could there be for anybody at RBS getting a bonus twice in their
:21:34. > :21:39.salary? We have not been approached by RBS in terms of those votes. I
:21:40. > :21:45.would be sceptical about an approach from RBS if it can. It shows what we
:21:46. > :21:53.have presided over as a party in government, massive reductions. .
:21:54. > :22:03.I'm not asking you about that, I'm asking what conceivable case there
:22:04. > :22:06.can be for a bank that has failed to sell its branches even though
:22:07. > :22:12.ordered by the Government, still has 38 billion of toxic debt on its
:22:13. > :22:17.balance sheet, I ask again what possible reason should they get
:22:18. > :22:27.twice salary as a bonus? Your right to say RBS is in a very different
:22:28. > :22:31.position to other banks, it is mostly owned by the state. RBS
:22:32. > :22:36.hasn't put a case to us but they might do so I would like to look at
:22:37. > :22:39.what they would say, but I would be sceptical as to whether a case could
:22:40. > :22:44.be made given some of the things you said, but also the fact that it is a
:22:45. > :22:51.bank that has benefited from the taxpayer standing behind it. Now RBS
:22:52. > :22:56.has to focus more on domestic retail. Let me turn to Chris
:22:57. > :23:02.Rennard, ten women have accused him of sexual harassment. He denies
:23:03. > :23:08.every case. Who do you believe? We have been through a process on this
:23:09. > :23:17.as a party. A report has been issued on this. I agree with Alistair
:23:18. > :23:21.Webster on this, he has made clear that while he cannot prove what
:23:22. > :23:25.happened to a criminal standard that there is clear there has been
:23:26. > :23:31.considerable distress and harm caused. I agree with him about that
:23:32. > :23:40.and that's why it is necessary for Chris Rennard to apologise as he has
:23:41. > :23:45.been asked to do. If he refuses to apologise, should he be denied the
:23:46. > :23:49.Lib Dem whip in the Lords? I don't think he should be readmitted to the
:23:50. > :23:54.Liberal Democrat group in the House of Lords until such time as the
:23:55. > :24:00.disciplinary process, including the apology, has been done properly We
:24:01. > :24:03.are very democratic party, it is a matter for our group in the House of
:24:04. > :24:09.Lords in due course to make that judgement. Party HQ has had a lot of
:24:10. > :24:13.complaints from party members about the fact no apology has been made.
:24:14. > :24:17.The appropriate committee would need to look at that and decide what
:24:18. > :24:24.action needs to be taken because these are very serious matters. We
:24:25. > :24:30.as a party have learned a lot, taken a long, hard look at ourselves, to
:24:31. > :24:37.change the way we work. The apology does need to be made. We are told
:24:38. > :24:40.that Lord Newby, the Chief Whip of the Liberal Democrats in the House
:24:41. > :24:45.of Lords, we are told he has shaken hands with Chris Rennard and
:24:46. > :24:53.welcomed him back. That decision has not been taken yet. I think Lord
:24:54. > :25:01.Newby would share my view on this. Have you shaken his hand and
:25:02. > :25:07.welcomed him back? No, I haven't. Does Nick Clegg have the power to
:25:08. > :25:12.deny Chris Rennard as the whip? I am making it clear that a lack of
:25:13. > :25:17.apology is totally unacceptable and therefore we have to take steps if
:25:18. > :25:22.that is not forthcoming. His view and my view is that Lord Rennard
:25:23. > :25:30.should not be readmitted to the House of Lords if that is not
:25:31. > :25:37.forthcoming. In our party, our group in the House of Lords has two in the
:25:38. > :25:44.end take a view for itself. And they can override Nick Clegg's view? I
:25:45. > :25:51.hope that when they look at this... Do they have the power to override
:25:52. > :26:00.Nick Clegg? They have the power to decide who should be the whip. The
:26:01. > :26:07.failure to follow up the simple human demand for an apology for the
:26:08. > :26:18.stress that has been caused is totally unacceptable. Your party is
:26:19. > :26:28.totally down lighted on this -- divided on this. Here is what Lord
:26:29. > :26:35.Carlile had to say. A total nonsense, hyperbole. It is a
:26:36. > :26:39.ridiculous statement to make and we have seen Alistair Webster, the QC
:26:40. > :26:43.who did this investigation, comment on that himself this morning. He has
:26:44. > :26:48.followed the process the party laid down in its rules, which sets the
:26:49. > :26:53.standard for the investigation which asked him to report on the evidence
:26:54. > :27:00.he has found, but he also has a duty of confidentiality and
:27:01. > :27:05.responsibility under the data protection legislation as well. Here
:27:06. > :27:17.is what your activists have said in a letter to the Guardian. This shows
:27:18. > :27:22.there are strong opinions, but why should Chris Rennard apologise for
:27:23. > :27:27.something he denies, unproven allegations, on an unpublished
:27:28. > :27:31.report that Chris Rennard has not been allowed to read? He should
:27:32. > :27:35.apologise because he wants to continue to be a member of the
:27:36. > :27:41.Liberal Democrats and this is the recommendation that has been made by
:27:42. > :27:47.the internal disciplinary process. Webster himself said this was not an
:27:48. > :27:53.inquiry, it is an opinion. If Chris Rennard apologises on this basis, he
:27:54. > :27:59.opens himself to civil lawsuits He says he is not going to do it. As a
:28:00. > :28:04.Liberal Democrat you join the party because you believe in its values,
:28:05. > :28:10.you abide by its rules. One of those rules is that we have a process if
:28:11. > :28:16.there are disciplinary allegations. The committee of the party supported
:28:17. > :28:19.Webster's recommendations, one of which was that an apology should be
:28:20. > :28:27.made because he clearly found distress had been caused. Will there
:28:28. > :28:37.now be a proper inquiry? I don't think any of these legalistic
:28:38. > :28:44.things, I don't think he can have it both ways. Will there be a proper
:28:45. > :28:48.inquiry? Alistair Webster did do a proper inquiry. There was a proper
:28:49. > :28:52.report into what happened at the time and we have learned a lot from
:28:53. > :28:58.this is a party, and the most important thing now is that Chris
:28:59. > :29:09.Rennard apologises. You have made that clear. What kind of biscuits
:29:10. > :29:16.are you? Are you a Tunnocks? Soft on the inside? It is good of you to be
:29:17. > :29:21.advertising a Scottish product. We just wondered if you weren't tough
:29:22. > :29:40.enough to take on Ed Balls. Thank you. More than tough enough is the
:29:41. > :29:43.answer to that. Generally governments are a bit
:29:44. > :29:46.rubbish at IT projects. They tend to run way over budget and never quite
:29:47. > :29:49.achieve what they promised. So the revelations of a former spy that the
:29:50. > :29:52.US and British security agencies were in fact astonishingly efficient
:29:53. > :29:55.at eavesdropping on the digital communications of their citizens
:29:56. > :29:57.came as a bit shock. But just how worried should we be about their
:29:58. > :29:59.clandestine activity? In his latest revelation, former US
:30:00. > :30:01.by Edward Snowden has claimed that America's National Security Agency
:30:02. > :30:07.operates a secret database called Dishfire. It collect 200 million
:30:08. > :30:13.mobile phone messages every day from around the world, accessed, he says,
:30:14. > :30:17.why British and American spies. This week, the president has outlined a
:30:18. > :30:21.series of surveillance reforms, including Ning to the storage of the
:30:22. > :30:28.phone call information of millions of Americans, and no Morse -- and no
:30:29. > :30:38.more spying on allies like Angela Merkel. Critics say that the British
:30:39. > :30:42.intelligence agencies have refused to acknowledge even the need for a
:30:43. > :30:45.debate on the issue. The Foreign Secretary William six says that we
:30:46. > :30:53.have a very strong system of checks and balances. -- William Hague. ??
:30:54. > :30:56.new line Nick Pickles is director of the pressure group Big Brother
:30:57. > :30:59.Watch. The Labour MP Hazel Blears in on Parliament's Intelligence And
:31:00. > :31:10.Security Committee. They're here to go head to head.
:31:11. > :31:15.Welcome to both of you. Hazel Blears, let me come to you first.
:31:16. > :31:18.President Obama has made some major changes as a result of what we have
:31:19. > :31:24.learned that the NSA in America was up to. But British politicians seem
:31:25. > :31:30.to, they are not up for this kind of thing, they are hoping it will go
:31:31. > :31:34.away? It is not going away and that is why my committee, the
:31:35. > :31:37.Intelligence And Security Committee, has decided to launch an enquiry
:31:38. > :31:45.into whether the legal framework is up-to-date. We have had massive
:31:46. > :31:50.technological change. We have had a call for evidence. Some of the
:31:51. > :31:55.sessions will be open so that people can see what the evidence is.
:31:56. > :31:59.Obviously some of the information will have to be classified, but on
:32:00. > :32:03.the committee, there is a real commitment to say, there is a big
:32:04. > :32:07.debate going on, let's see if the system is as Rob asked as we can
:32:08. > :32:11.make it. The big question is oversight and the call for evidence
:32:12. > :32:15.that the committee has issued is not mention oversight. It is ten years
:32:16. > :32:23.since the Foreign Affairs Committee said that the committee should be a
:32:24. > :32:29.fully elected committee chosen by Parliament and not the Prime
:32:30. > :32:34.Minister. It has changed, actually. The Prime Minister nominates people
:32:35. > :32:42.and the house gets to him -- gets to approve. In America, they have a
:32:43. > :32:50.separation of power, the president does not nominate Kennedy.
:32:51. > :32:55.Basically, Hazel Blears, you're an establishment lackey? I do not think
:32:56. > :32:59.so. Most of the people on the committee have some experience of
:33:00. > :33:03.intelligence and these issues. In this country, we have robust
:33:04. > :33:07.scrutiny, compared to some of her European neighbours. We have
:33:08. > :33:13.Parliamentary scrutiny, the interception commissioners, and
:33:14. > :33:17.ministers have to sign the warrants. But there may be room for
:33:18. > :33:23.improvement, which is why we are having the enquiry. Do not forget,
:33:24. > :33:27.President Obama said that the agency should not have the ability to
:33:28. > :33:31.collect data, he wanted to put more safeguards in. That is essential for
:33:32. > :33:35.the work of the agencies. If you cannot see the data, you cannot take
:33:36. > :33:40.the connections and see the patterns. Some people never talk
:33:41. > :33:45.about the threat from terrorism it is all about travesty. There are
:33:46. > :33:50.several thousand people in this country, as we are talking, who are
:33:51. > :33:55.actively planning to do a country harm. When this debate started in
:33:56. > :33:59.the US, the NSA head stood up and said there are 54 plots that have
:34:00. > :34:06.been detected by this capability that has detected and that in bulk.
:34:07. > :34:12.Now the head of the NSA has admitted that the number is actually zero. It
:34:13. > :34:18.is not the intelligence committee in the US that did the work to reduce
:34:19. > :34:22.that number, it was a Judiciary Committee. The fact that we have two
:34:23. > :34:29.different bodies doing this in this country, it means that you do not
:34:30. > :34:32.get the correct view. How can people have confidence in a body when if
:34:33. > :34:38.you go around Europe, for example, or the world, we are not at the end
:34:39. > :34:43.not requiring judges to not sign warrants? I do not accept that the
:34:44. > :34:49.committee failed on that range of issues. You look at the reports on
:34:50. > :34:54.7/7. Two reports by the committee get to the heart of it. If you look
:34:55. > :34:56.at that terrorist attack on our country, people will say, why did
:34:57. > :35:01.you not have them on the radar? The country, people will say, why did
:35:02. > :35:07.agencies are between a rock and a hard race. They have got to be
:35:08. > :35:10.subject to oversight, but beanie capability. Did you know about
:35:11. > :35:16.Dishfire? We go to GCHQ on a regular capability. Did you know about
:35:17. > :35:22.basis and I know about the capabilities that we have got. Some
:35:23. > :35:29.of the names of these programmes, we would not necessarily know. But did
:35:30. > :35:34.you know that GCHQ had the capability to use Dishfire, or to
:35:35. > :35:37.get Dishfire material from the NSA? I knew and my committee knew that we
:35:38. > :35:42.had the capability to collect data, I knew and my committee knew that we
:35:43. > :35:45.and these days, people do not write letters, they do not use landline
:35:46. > :35:49.and these days, people do not write telephones, they use the Internet
:35:50. > :35:52.and text in, so it is important that the agencies are able to keep up
:35:53. > :36:00.with that take the logical change. What should happen? The proper legal
:36:01. > :36:04.framework should include, if a company is cooperating, as Google
:36:05. > :36:10.and Facebook do, it should be illegal for GCHQ to hack into them.
:36:11. > :36:16.In the US, Lundberg estimate that this has driven a 35mm and hole in
:36:17. > :36:19.the US economy because people do not trust but there are systems are
:36:20. > :36:24.secure. We need to know that GCHQ are not trying to use a different
:36:25. > :36:28.door into the system, whether by hacking or foreign intelligence We
:36:29. > :36:33.need judicial oversight with judges and not politicians signing off The
:36:34. > :36:38.final 30 seconds to you. As a result final 30 seconds to you. As a result
:36:39. > :36:41.of the changes in the Justice and Security act, the committee is
:36:42. > :36:46.accountable to Parliament and not the Prime Minister. Those changes
:36:47. > :36:52.the debate if we need more change or the debate if we need more change or
:36:53. > :36:56.not. But I want British agencies to have more power to protect the
:36:57. > :37:00.people in this country. Thank you to both of you. It's coming up to
:37:01. > :37:03.11:40. You're watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20
:37:04. > :37:04.minutes, we'll get the verdict of the Minister for Portsmouth on that
:37:05. > :37:35.dive from the Portsmouth MP. Ouch! Hello and welcome to the part of the
:37:36. > :37:41.show for Cumbria and the north`east. This week, we are looking at whether
:37:42. > :37:44.cuts in police officers could lead or even our leading already in a
:37:45. > :37:47.growth in anti`social behaviour. We report from Middlesbrough and speak
:37:48. > :37:51.to Cleveland's police commissioner. With me in the studio, a Labour MP
:37:52. > :38:00.and the Conservatives, With me in the studio, a Labour MP
:38:01. > :38:03.start with the surprise is that the Labour bash Labour leadership of
:38:04. > :38:07.Northumbria county council wants to shut down this place, scattering
:38:08. > :38:16.1000 's gaffe into local communities and saving perhaps ?130 million. Is
:38:17. > :38:21.it an inspired move? Or is it a desperate one? My colleagues in
:38:22. > :38:24.Northumberland would agree with me. The North is being
:38:25. > :38:28.disproportionately hit by the cuts that this coalition are imposing.
:38:29. > :38:31.Councils are having to think of different ways of managing services
:38:32. > :38:34.and how best to meet the needs of their customers. What Northumberland
:38:35. > :38:39.have done is they have looked across the board and thought, this suits us
:38:40. > :38:49.in areas which Orrell. They've done the best they can under the
:38:50. > :38:53.circumstances. ` which are rural. Is it time for councils to think more
:38:54. > :38:59.imaginatively? Maybe people could work at home? Councils are thinking
:39:00. > :39:03.imaginatively. Inside Shiels, they used to be boss of offices outside
:39:04. > :39:06.of the town hall. They are now all coming into the town also those
:39:07. > :39:09.buildings are freed up. Northumberland have done it in a way
:39:10. > :39:18.which suits their local population in South `` and South Tyneside are
:39:19. > :39:24.doing it so it suits them. Morpeth had been billed by the time I became
:39:25. > :39:28.a counsellor. Is this a good idea? It is quite destabilising for the
:39:29. > :39:32.time. It's fair enough as long as it is not a political thing. There are
:39:33. > :39:36.arguments that this is an attempt to move more of the activities from
:39:37. > :39:41.Northumberland, down to the south`east of the county. I think a
:39:42. > :39:45.lot of rural communities, for instance, would be happy with this,
:39:46. > :39:50.as long as, where people are going to be placed is going to be more
:39:51. > :39:52.within those communities. Northumberland is essentially a
:39:53. > :39:57.rural county and it needs to have services near to where people are.
:39:58. > :40:00.When you have a building that costs nearly ?500,000 in heating alone in
:40:01. > :40:02.a year, naturally, I think it is right they should be looking at that
:40:03. > :40:07.building carefully. There are economies of scale, having a big
:40:08. > :40:11.building and not having separate bills for different buildings. It
:40:12. > :40:14.depends. When the district councils went, there were a lot of good
:40:15. > :40:17.buildings available. What they've done with some of those is retained
:40:18. > :40:21.them for one reason or another. I think it is perfectly all right to
:40:22. > :40:26.do this and after all, they have to cut their cloth. They are very big
:40:27. > :40:31.spenders. The government has got massive debts. They have got debts.
:40:32. > :40:40.We will see what happens. Can we fight crime with less money
:40:41. > :40:45.and fewer police? 200 officers were announced... On Teeside, there are
:40:46. > :40:49.now fewer wardens and community support officers on the streets.
:40:50. > :40:58.Some say it is already leading to a rise in anti`social behaviour.
:40:59. > :41:01.This Teeside pet shop has lots of pets but whilst business is good,
:41:02. > :41:06.problems in the streets around have made life difficult. This is where
:41:07. > :41:14.they set fire to the place twice now. As you can see, the floor, the
:41:15. > :41:17.walls, they pushed the bin up against the wall. They've also done
:41:18. > :41:22.it up against our back door as well. It's been on a number of
:41:23. > :41:29.occasions now. We have a flat above us. It is potentially lethal. Others
:41:30. > :41:34.are equally worried. They say getting help from the police or
:41:35. > :41:38.council is increasingly difficult. Motorbikes driving up the street,
:41:39. > :41:44.people arguing and general noise. It's getting bad. How easy is it to
:41:45. > :41:51.get help? It is harder to get help and when you know where to phone the
:41:52. > :41:53.police, they will pass you on to someone else. They pass the buck all
:41:54. > :41:59.the time. In Middlesbrough, anti`social behaviour has long been
:42:00. > :42:06.a big issue. The time's collected air `` Mayor has made fighting it
:42:07. > :42:13.his personal mission. Now, this battle has been affected by
:42:14. > :42:16.austerity. In that battle to keep communities safer, the street
:42:17. > :42:19.wardens have been crucial. While they `` there used to be more than
:42:20. > :42:25.70 pounding the pavements, there are now just 15. The council struggles
:42:26. > :42:29.to make savings. It is sad that people have lost their jobs. It is
:42:30. > :42:33.happening across the council. We need the community to report
:42:34. > :42:38.things, being vigilant. We will try, despite the ?67 million cuts, to
:42:39. > :42:41.mitigate the problem is people in the time. Problem is that the
:42:42. > :42:48.special constables volunteer their time to solve. `` problems.
:42:49. > :42:52.Cleveland Police wants to double the number of special constables to
:42:53. > :42:58.nearly 200. Full`time officers will be down more than 20% over six
:42:59. > :43:02.years. Community support officers will take a similar hit. Our
:43:03. > :43:07.communities may see less of us and fewer yellow coats in terms of
:43:08. > :43:11.police officers or community support officers over the next two years,
:43:12. > :43:15.but our commitment is that we will do everything we can to maintain the
:43:16. > :43:20.safety of our communities. Last year, recorded crime continued to
:43:21. > :43:27.fall across the region. In Cleveland, anti`social behaviour was
:43:28. > :43:31.slightly up. If you are going to reduce the number of police
:43:32. > :43:36.officers, it will have an affect on anti`social behaviour. There are
:43:37. > :43:40.some areas that, purely because of a lack of resources, are not going to
:43:41. > :43:44.get the policing that they deserve. Labour's Police Commissioner for the
:43:45. > :43:47.area has also warned that cuts could threaten public safety. A message
:43:48. > :43:53.dismissed as scaremongering by the Conservatives. The Police and Crime
:43:54. > :43:57.Commissioner in Cleveland lives in a fantasyland. He claims that
:43:58. > :44:00.everything is going well, recognises that crime is falling, that public
:44:01. > :44:04.satisfaction is getting better. On the other, he says the next of cuts
:44:05. > :44:09.are going to be the ones that are terrible. The fact is, it's not
:44:10. > :44:11.easy. He's not paid to do his job because it's easy. There are
:44:12. > :44:16.challenges that we need to face and we need to deal with them to balance
:44:17. > :44:20.the books. So far, all the evidence is that in Cleveland, and in forces
:44:21. > :44:27.across the country, they are finding ways to do more with less. So, can
:44:28. > :44:32.crime and spending continue to be cut at the same time? Whatever the
:44:33. > :44:37.answer, its impact will be felt both politically and in streets like
:44:38. > :44:45.these. The man James Wharton was referring
:44:46. > :44:56.to is Barry Coffin Joe. James Wharton says you are living in a
:44:57. > :45:00.fantasy land. I have lived in the fantasyland that has been called
:45:01. > :45:04.leaders `` Cleveland all my life and I've seen changes over the years but
:45:05. > :45:07.these are the most difficult financial services `` circumstances
:45:08. > :45:13.we've ever had. We are trying to do the best we can with the resources
:45:14. > :45:17.that are being drastically reduced by central government. That being
:45:18. > :45:20.said, police officers are extremely dedicated and professional. I've
:45:21. > :45:26.seen officers across the Cleveland area working over the past 12 months
:45:27. > :45:30.or so and they are doing their best. Although crime was rising over the
:45:31. > :45:34.summer, we are getting it under control and we have made reductions
:45:35. > :45:40.over the winter period. Progress is being made. The central point is
:45:41. > :45:43.that progress is being made. The impression that public will get is
:45:44. > :45:49.you could manage with less and you have done. We've done the best we
:45:50. > :45:54.can with diminishing resources. I think it is sad that with a little
:45:55. > :45:57.bit more, we could do so much more. We are dying to basic crime fighting
:45:58. > :46:00.now. We are down to working with neighbourhoods, we are down to
:46:01. > :46:04.working with local residents. In fact, I was speaking to residents
:46:05. > :46:06.just this week and some excellent work is going on around
:46:07. > :46:12.neighbourhood watch and neighbourhood policing. To properly
:46:13. > :46:15.tackle crime and disorder in its widest sense and on a long`term
:46:16. > :46:23.basis, we need to do more than just react. This is the problem, isn't
:46:24. > :46:27.it? Doesn't it worry you that that community seems to think that if
:46:28. > :46:33.they ring the police about low`level incidents, they might get ignored? I
:46:34. > :46:36.am sorry if they feel that is the case. Cleveland Police receive
:46:37. > :46:40.around 800 calls a day and we have an incident management team in place
:46:41. > :46:44.now that works to that job queue, to make sure the most important calls
:46:45. > :46:52.get the swiftest response. They have to make those priority decisions. Is
:46:53. > :46:55.the message that if things are low`level, it doesn't matter?
:46:56. > :47:00.Low`level crime makes people feel in securing the committees. It might
:47:01. > :47:02.not seem the most important, but if people are frightened to go out
:47:03. > :47:07.because they feel unsafe, that's a problem, isn't it? There is never a
:47:08. > :47:12.call that doesn't matter. Every call that comes in matters. It is a
:47:13. > :47:16.question of the response and how we make the best use of the limited
:47:17. > :47:24.resources with God. Neighbourhood policing is effective across the
:47:25. > :47:27.Cleveland area they have a very high opinion of the work that Cleveland
:47:28. > :47:31.Police do. That's very encouraging. They are working harder and harder
:47:32. > :47:36.every day to keep the people of Cleveland say. We could do so much
:47:37. > :47:41.more. People will judge all record as a Commissioner after a few years.
:47:42. > :47:46.Would you take the rap if crime goes up? If crime goes up, that will be
:47:47. > :47:50.for several different reasons but the government are not helping by
:47:51. > :47:54.reducing funding. I have spoken to residents across the Cleveland area.
:47:55. > :48:00.In all sectors, this button to Rotary clubs, residents groups,
:48:01. > :48:03.neighbourhood action groups. `` I have spoken to Rotary clubs. If we
:48:04. > :48:08.had more resources, we could make a real difference. We are reacting to
:48:09. > :48:17.crime but we need to do more proactively.
:48:18. > :48:20.There are worrying signs from communities who are noticing a
:48:21. > :48:24.difference in the police service, despite what we hear about cats
:48:25. > :48:30.making no difference. One has to look at the statistics as well as
:48:31. > :48:40.the stories. Crime is falling. It has been falling in a number of the
:48:41. > :48:42.northern regions. We certainly saw it in Northumberland, where crime
:48:43. > :48:46.has been down around 10%. We have seen it in Yorkshire. We are now
:48:47. > :48:54.seeing it in Cleveland and yes, it's true, there are pressures. There is
:48:55. > :48:59.no doubt, we have two... We haven't got the resources. Whatever the
:49:00. > :49:05.figures show, would you accept that there is a problem if, as we heard
:49:06. > :49:09.in Cleveland, there are less obvious police officers around? If people
:49:10. > :49:15.don't feel safe going out of their homes, that is a big problem. Yes
:49:16. > :49:18.but in fact of `` the police chiefs have been making it clear that they
:49:19. > :49:22.are not going to allow people to suffer in that way. We are in fact
:49:23. > :49:28.seeing a maintenance of that sharp end. It's in quite a lot of outdated
:49:29. > :49:32.buildings, for instance. I think that is commendable. Crime is
:49:33. > :49:36.undoubtedly falling. That is obviously a tribute to the police as
:49:37. > :49:41.well. It is something that I think we should bear in mind. If we had
:49:42. > :49:45.listened to Labour, they said you cannot do this, crime will rise etc.
:49:46. > :49:54.Actually, we would not have saved the money we have? To be perfectly
:49:55. > :49:58.honest, Labour had a plan to put in cuts 12% across the parliament. That
:49:59. > :50:02.was approved by H MCI. We are now seeing that there are lice `` less
:50:03. > :50:07.crime is being solved nationally than would have been. Fewer crimes
:50:08. > :50:11.are being sold under this government. In Northumbria, crime
:50:12. > :50:15.has risen. My anti`social behaviour has gone down that crime has risen
:50:16. > :50:20.and we have 400 fewer police officers on the streets.
:50:21. > :50:23.Northumbria's Chief Constable has said that the current set of
:50:24. > :50:28.savings, she can manage without and still deliver a good service to the
:50:29. > :50:31.public. I believe that she and our police and crime commission are
:50:32. > :50:34.doing everything they can. They are looking at back`office functions. I
:50:35. > :50:41.don't know how much longer that can continue. Do you believe her? I have
:50:42. > :50:45.every faith that she can deliver that but what happens next year when
:50:46. > :50:48.there are more cuts? How long can this keep going on? The
:50:49. > :50:52.Conservatives are talking about making more public savings after
:50:53. > :50:58.2015. We have to balance the books. That is the whole point. Even to the
:50:59. > :51:02.point where communities are suffering. There is not that
:51:03. > :51:07.evidence, I'm afraid. The Labour Party has all kinds of funny
:51:08. > :51:12.statistics. The truth is... The statistics are funny, the
:51:13. > :51:16.circumstances people living may not be. I can tell you this, that we
:51:17. > :51:19.have to balance those books. We have got falling crime. We want to
:51:20. > :51:23.continue with that and we want the sharp end not to be affected by
:51:24. > :51:27.whatever cuts have to come from government. If you were really
:51:28. > :51:30.concerned about this, they did would be committed to reversing the cuts
:51:31. > :51:35.and you are not, are you? I cannot make any commitments like that. I'm
:51:36. > :51:42.a backbencher. We are not aware of what we will inherit in 2015. We
:51:43. > :51:44.don't have a manifesto yet. We are in opposition. We hold the
:51:45. > :51:48.government to account and that is what I am doing. And labour's plan,
:51:49. > :51:56.we would not be seeing what we are seeing now because our plan was 12%
:51:57. > :52:00.cuts. You mustn't worry people necessarily when the figures are
:52:01. > :52:03.going down. Rivals on the football pitch but
:52:04. > :52:08.surely Sunderland and Newcastle councils could work together. The
:52:09. > :52:10.two local authorities are in the process of setting up a so`called
:52:11. > :52:17.combined authority, where they would work together to boost the region.
:52:18. > :52:20.It has been a process, unfortunately, fraught with
:52:21. > :52:25.difficulty. Two cities, two rivers, two football clubs.
:52:26. > :52:31.The Tyne Wear rivalry dates a long way back. Newcastle and
:52:32. > :52:34.Sunderland's first serious confrontation was in the English
:52:35. > :52:37.Civil War. It might be hard to imagine today but in six and 44,
:52:38. > :52:45.this village was the scene of a battle between those from Newcastle
:52:46. > :52:49.and soldiers from Sunderland. 370 years on, people from the two cities
:52:50. > :52:52.are trying to diss that are not trying to disembowel each other any
:52:53. > :53:00.more but the question is, can rivalries like that be gotten rid
:53:01. > :53:02.of? That is the idea. It would seek closer cooperation between the two
:53:03. > :53:06.councils as well as those in Northumberland, Gateshead, Durham
:53:07. > :53:09.and North and South Tyneside. Each individual council would still
:53:10. > :53:14.provide more local services but they would work together on boosting the
:53:15. > :53:18.economy and transport. It is due to start in April. It all sounds great,
:53:19. > :53:24.except Sunderland Council has been reluctant to sign up. What we need
:53:25. > :53:33.to know is what it will look like, what it will cost and what the
:53:34. > :53:38.constitution would be like. When we have a new chief executive to run
:53:39. > :53:42.it? It needs a chief financial officer. All of a sudden, you can
:53:43. > :53:48.see the costs are escalating. We need some surety about what we are
:53:49. > :53:57.getting ourselves. The question is, why Sunderlandqualms so potentially
:53:58. > :54:04.lethal? Without Sunderland, it simply won't happen. And so with
:54:05. > :54:07.South Tyneside also special diets, the signals have not been looking
:54:08. > :54:14.good. That has left business leaders worried. Our politicians... We
:54:15. > :54:18.clearly need to get our act together in this region, to talk with one
:54:19. > :54:20.voice, to make sure that we can get the maximum benefit out of
:54:21. > :54:24.everything that is happening for the north`east economy at present. The
:54:25. > :54:27.fact that one, possibly to authorities, are walking away from
:54:28. > :54:31.that opportunity does real damage to the north`east. It really makes
:54:32. > :54:36.Westminster look at us as a divided region, that cannot work together
:54:37. > :54:40.and cannot make things happen. There are other concerns. A combined
:54:41. > :54:46.authority would be run by cat `7 council leaders, all at the moment
:54:47. > :54:52.Labour politicians. Some fear a 1`party state. It's all very good
:54:53. > :55:00.because you'll only get one voice in terms of a party line. It's not
:55:01. > :55:04.going to be very rigorous if you've not got different voices there to
:55:05. > :55:07.challenge it, to ask it to look at different things. They must make
:55:08. > :55:14.sure that any decisions are properly scrutinised. Hopefully, nobody has
:55:15. > :55:20.come to blows this week. It seems long`standing rivalries have not
:55:21. > :55:24.been consigned to history just yet. This doesn't reflect well on the
:55:25. > :55:31.region or Labour. Seven Labour council leaders cannot get their act
:55:32. > :55:33.together. I don't think it is that they cannot get their act together.
:55:34. > :55:37.I want the best for the north`east. The council leaders want the best as
:55:38. > :55:41.well. The problem is, the secretary of state only gave two months for
:55:42. > :55:44.them to consult and meet to discuss this. That was over Christmas. I
:55:45. > :55:49.think it is perfectly reasonable for council leaders to be saying, what
:55:50. > :55:52.is it that we are going to lose in this agreement and what is it that
:55:53. > :55:57.we are going to gain? Let's get into the detail of this before we sign
:55:58. > :56:04.up. Two months is enough to start to come up with some of the answers. It
:56:05. > :56:06.seems ridiculous. There is a dereliction of duty when they have
:56:07. > :56:11.known it was going to start in April. I'd disagree. It's a
:56:12. > :56:17.dereliction of the secretary of state's duty. They are asking for
:56:18. > :56:20.the detail and it is not coming forward. I don't see how you can
:56:21. > :56:33.blame that on the council leaders. The problem here... This is six bald
:56:34. > :56:42.man and a woman fighting over a comb, isn't it? There is not much in
:56:43. > :56:46.this. It does matter. The authority is not there to take away council
:56:47. > :56:49.functions. We will still have our local councils. Manchester has
:56:50. > :56:54.managed to get to do this, get together. Everyone was happy to get
:56:55. > :56:57.together to do things like deal with a major strategic issues. All of the
:56:58. > :57:02.country, we are looking at evolving away from the central government. We
:57:03. > :57:05.are trying to devolve properly so that these decisions can be taken
:57:06. > :57:07.nearer to the people. It seems to me that if the representatives of the
:57:08. > :57:19.people... All men, or Labour, that if the representatives of the
:57:20. > :57:22.There is one woman. If they cannot get their act together or get
:57:23. > :57:28.agreement for a region as important as this, then it is a very great
:57:29. > :57:30.shame indeed. We wouldn't have this problem if your party hadn't
:57:31. > :57:34.deconstructed the regional bodies like the one in a north`east which
:57:35. > :57:39.was doing well creating jobs. No, we can `` deconstructed the bodies for
:57:40. > :57:43.a lot of reasons. One was because we didn't feel they were creating what
:57:44. > :57:46.we needed. We needed to have more localism is with local authorities,
:57:47. > :57:49.more directly involved with businesses, through the local
:57:50. > :57:55.enterprise partnerships coming in as well. That combination is what the
:57:56. > :57:59.north`east and the regions one. We need that kind of approach. That is
:58:00. > :58:06.what is good for people. The danger is that the North East looks...
:58:07. > :58:10.Westminster is entitled to say you are not getting your act together.
:58:11. > :58:14.Look at Manchester in contrast. I don't think that will happen because
:58:15. > :58:19.the spirit is still there. Everybody wants this to work. You sure about
:58:20. > :58:22.that? Yes, I am sure. Going back to the point about one north`east. The
:58:23. > :58:28.coalition couldn't wait to get rid of that. The legacy there was that
:58:29. > :58:30.150,000 jobs were safeguarded and protected and created under that and
:58:31. > :58:35.yet the government thought they would get rid of it. Why? The
:58:36. > :58:44.government has rubbed `` behaved responsibly in bringing those albums
:58:45. > :58:47.together. The police are not the only emergency service trying to do
:58:48. > :58:49.that same with less. The Fire Service is facing big changes which
:58:50. > :59:09.are worrying many MPs. Penrith and the board and, Rory
:59:10. > :59:13.Stewart, is looking at what more can be done for veterans who are ending
:59:14. > :59:17.up in prison. It `` he will look at the support for ex`service
:59:18. > :59:21.personnel. Andy McDonald says he is gravely concerned about cuts to
:59:22. > :59:24.Cleveland Fire Service. A consultation document proposes a
:59:25. > :59:28.reduction in services and the loss of 76 full`time jobs. There are also
:59:29. > :59:33.cuts to Fire Services in Cumbria and Tyne Wear. For people dying per
:59:34. > :59:42.day within six months of being declared six `` fit for work. Will
:59:43. > :59:45.he come back to this house and apologised to the families of the
:59:46. > :59:50.deceased who have suffered unnecessarily in their last precious
:59:51. > :59:53.days? Finally, the threat to bus services in Cumbria has angered
:59:54. > :59:59.local residents. Almost 1700 people have signed a petition which has
:00:00. > :00:06.been handed in urging them not to bus `` CardBus subsidies.
:00:07. > :00:14.`` cut bus subsidies. That's it from us. Tomorrow evening
:00:15. > :00:17.on BBC One, we report on rising fuel bills and the impact on households
:00:18. > :00:21.in the North. That's a big issue. We are here as usual, at the same time
:00:22. > :00:22.next Sunday. For now, back to Andrew.
:00:23. > :00:33.houses being built by the mayor Andrew, back to you. Welcome back.
:00:34. > :00:38.Now she made quite a splash last night. I am talking, of course, of
:00:39. > :00:42.the Portsmouth North MP, Penny Mordaunt. If you missed her first
:00:43. > :00:44.appearance in ITV's celebrity diving competition show, here she is in
:00:45. > :01:15.action. APPLAUSE
:01:16. > :01:19.Here is a lady who is more used to campaigning for votes than diving
:01:20. > :01:24.for them. She created far too much rotation. Hard work has gone into
:01:25. > :01:35.the start of this dive to try and control it. That looked painful Now
:01:36. > :01:38.the Portsmouth North MP got voted off the show last night but what
:01:39. > :01:41.about the verdict that really matters? The newly appointed
:01:42. > :01:47.Minister for Portsmouth, Michael Fallon, is here. Welcome to the
:01:48. > :01:52.programme. I would give her ten out of ten for bravery. I was cheering
:01:53. > :01:56.her on. She was doing this for a local charity, raising money for the
:01:57. > :02:03.local swimming pool. She was a good sport. As Minister for Portsmouth,
:02:04. > :02:06.can we expect to see you in your swimming trunks for the next
:02:07. > :02:12.series? I do not think I have the spare time at the moment. But there
:02:13. > :02:16.is a big challenge in Portsmouth. Penny Mordaunt and the other local
:02:17. > :02:22.MPs there have been remorseless in asking ministers to help the city.
:02:23. > :02:32.They are losing jobs. There is a goblin Trinity -- there is a big
:02:33. > :02:35.opportunity to create jobs. Should she have been on a celebrity
:02:36. > :02:41.television show of their role these problems in Portsmouth? This was in
:02:42. > :02:44.her spare time and it is raising money for a good cause. I do not
:02:45. > :02:50.think we should eat two sniffy about it. Did I not see you dressed up on
:02:51. > :02:58.Thursday night, doing your programme? This is my job. This is
:02:59. > :03:08.not her job. It was in her spare time, she was raising money for a
:03:09. > :03:13.local charity. Your Minister for Portsmouth. Are we going to have a
:03:14. > :03:17.minister for every town? Are we going to have a minister for
:03:18. > :03:22.Chipping Sodbury? Chipping Sodbury does not have the issues that
:03:23. > :03:29.Portsmouth have -- that Portsmouth has. There are jobs at risk in
:03:30. > :03:35.shipbuilding. The government puts in a lot of money through the regional
:03:36. > :03:39.growth fund, some ?20 million. There are range of government funding
:03:40. > :03:44.streams going into Portsmouth. My job is to make sure that is properly
:03:45. > :03:48.coordinated. I need to make sure that Portsmouth seizes this
:03:49. > :03:52.opportunity to develop a more broadly -based marine and maritime
:03:53. > :03:57.economy. To make sure a marginal seat stays Tory at the next
:03:58. > :04:08.election? There are marginal seats everywhere. There is a Liberal
:04:09. > :04:10.Democrat marginal the -- seat. Vince Cable and I have been working
:04:11. > :04:16.together for the issues that Portsmouth is facing. We work on
:04:17. > :04:20.these things together. But I have the very specific job of making sure
:04:21. > :04:26.that the effort on the ground is coordinated. So Vince Cable is not
:04:27. > :04:31.the Minister for Portsmouth? I have been there recently, so has Vince
:04:32. > :04:37.Cable. So there are two ministers for Portsmouth? Just a minute. I am
:04:38. > :04:41.making sure that the effort is properly coordinated on the ground.
:04:42. > :04:45.I am determined to turn this challenging time into a proper
:04:46. > :04:52.opportunity. Should we be to Paul faced about this? No, good honour.
:04:53. > :04:56.How much money would be have to pay you to get into a swimming costume?
:04:57. > :05:03.Bid is not enough money in the BBC covers. Good on her. It took seven
:05:04. > :05:09.years to get a leg there's an MP. She should be a minister. It is a
:05:10. > :05:14.pity she has the spare time to do this. She is very talented. It is
:05:15. > :05:18.interesting about the Minister for Portsmouth, up in the north-east
:05:19. > :05:24.they must be sad that they do not have any marginal seats. Nick Brown
:05:25. > :05:30.as David Cameron last July, can we have a minister for the north-east,
:05:31. > :05:34.and the Prime Minister is said no? Does this mean that Portsmouth is
:05:35. > :05:39.more deprived economic late than the north-east? No, it means it is a
:05:40. > :05:42.marginal seat. The Labour Leader Ed Miliband was on
:05:43. > :05:45.the Andrew Marr programme this morning and he outlined plans under
:05:46. > :05:48.a Labour government for an annual competition audit. Here is what he
:05:49. > :05:51.had to say. The next Labour government will have an annual
:05:52. > :05:55.competition at it, not just done by the regulatory body. Alongside them
:05:56. > :06:00.will be the citizens advice bureau, setting the agenda for the future,
:06:01. > :06:05.setting the agenda for how we can ensure that competition will benefit
:06:06. > :06:08.consumers and businesses. I want to see Labour going into the next
:06:09. > :06:13.election as the party of competition, the party of the
:06:14. > :06:17.consumer, the party of hard-pressed working families who are struggling.
:06:18. > :06:21.They need somebody to deal with those issues and that is what the
:06:22. > :06:25.next Labour government will do. I thought you were meant to be the
:06:26. > :06:30.party of competition? We are the party of competition. This is the
:06:31. > :06:35.party that has given us some of these problems. We have an annual
:06:36. > :06:41.competition review in the energy sector. We have already tackling
:06:42. > :06:45.banking. What is interesting about his proposal is it is the smaller
:06:46. > :06:50.ones who are less sure about this, the smaller banks who think that
:06:51. > :06:54.this could inhibit the growth. It is the smaller energy companies who
:06:55. > :06:56.think that through interfering with the market, through his price
:06:57. > :07:03.freeze, that he will hinder competition. We spoke about this
:07:04. > :07:08.before. It is a clever pitch that Ed Miliband is making. Under the guise
:07:09. > :07:13.of token markets and claiming to be the party of competition, he is
:07:14. > :07:20.creating the reason for state intervention? -- broken markets
:07:21. > :07:25.Exactly, and it is state intervention that does not work
:07:26. > :07:31.There is a proud tradition in government of smashing open cartels.
:07:32. > :07:35.Teddy Roosevelt did it nearly a century ago. The problem is, in
:07:36. > :07:41.those situations it was clear and obvious that the consumers were
:07:42. > :07:46.suffering. I am not sure it is entirely obvious in this country. In
:07:47. > :07:49.the banking sector we have free current accounts in the high street.
:07:50. > :07:55.That is not true in all Western countries. In the energy sector our
:07:56. > :07:59.bills are not outlandish they high. It is when we take taxes into
:08:00. > :08:04.account the become unaffordable He has to make the case that consumers
:08:05. > :08:10.are suffering as a result of these monopolies. Ed Miliband would say it
:08:11. > :08:16.is not about state intervention but about making markets work. The piece
:08:17. > :08:20.that was written by his intellectual Duryea about the significance and
:08:21. > :08:24.the importance of Teddy Roosevelt. He was the Republican president in
:08:25. > :08:32.the yearly -- in the early years of the last century. He wanted markets
:08:33. > :08:38.to work. There is an interesting debate on Twitter this morning. Tim
:08:39. > :08:45.Montgomerie is saying, why are we, the Conservative Party, not seen as
:08:46. > :08:51.the party of Teddy Roosevelt? We are seen as the party of business.
:08:52. > :08:56.There are smaller energy companies competing against the big six. In
:08:57. > :09:00.banking, we have seen smaller companies coming. It was the Labour
:09:01. > :09:05.government that created the big six energy companies. I think Teddy
:09:06. > :09:11.Roosevelt also invaded Cuba and the Philippines. That could give us a
:09:12. > :09:17.clue as to Ed Miliband's foreign policy. Nigel Farage has promised to
:09:18. > :09:22.purge the party of its more extreme candidates ahead of the European
:09:23. > :09:28.Council elections in May. But that may not be going so well. Listen to
:09:29. > :09:35.this. The latest in this process is these homosexual laws. And Thomas I
:09:36. > :09:40.shall manage. I believe that the Prime Minister, who was warned that
:09:41. > :09:47.disasters would follow a three went in this direction, he has persisted,
:09:48. > :09:55.and I believe that this is largely a repercussion from this godlessness
:09:56. > :09:59.that he has persisted in. The instructions I have got from now on,
:10:00. > :10:04.or is just not to answer in, and not to give interviews such as this one.
:10:05. > :10:10.So you are ignoring them? I am not ignoring them. But you are talking
:10:11. > :10:16.to me? You are the last one I shall be speaking to. I think it is too
:10:17. > :10:19.late. Who would have thought it It is not global warming that is
:10:20. > :10:25.causing the floods, it is gay marriage? That explains it. Last
:10:26. > :10:31.year David Cameron offered a coded retraction of his statement that
:10:32. > :10:37.UKIP is full of fruit cakes. I think he will be tempted to retract the
:10:38. > :10:39.retraction. It is a warning to lots of Tories who think that their best
:10:40. > :10:48.interests are served by flirting with lace -- with UKIP. Nigel Farage
:10:49. > :10:52.is a very plausible guy, but several layers down, there are people who
:10:53. > :10:56.are very different. Nigel Farage is saying that he's going to clear the
:10:57. > :11:01.party out of what Mr Cameron called the fruitcakes. If he is true to his
:11:02. > :11:08.word, Mr Sylvester's days in the party should they numbered. If Nigel
:11:09. > :11:20.Farage falls under the bus, what is left of place -- what is left of
:11:21. > :11:23.UKIP? People say that they like UKIP because unlike other politicians,
:11:24. > :11:28.they speak their mind. But as it turns into more of a proper
:11:29. > :11:33.organisation, people speaking their mind will be less acceptable. The
:11:34. > :11:39.European elections are always a protest vote. People are not happy
:11:40. > :11:43.with the elite. You will get people saying utterly ridiculous things
:11:44. > :11:48.like that man in Henley-on-Thames. But this is a chance to vote against
:11:49. > :11:56.the entire political establishment. I am not sure that comments like
:11:57. > :12:00.that will make much of a difference. There are lots of arguments about
:12:01. > :12:06.climate change. That was certainly a new one! They are the only big
:12:07. > :12:11.protest party at the moment. Protest party is obviously hoovered up lots
:12:12. > :12:15.of votes. We have got to be clear in European message that we are the
:12:16. > :12:21.only party that can reform Europe and give people a proper choice the
:12:22. > :12:24.first referendum in over 40 years. Mr Sylvester used to be a
:12:25. > :12:30.conservative. You're probably glad to see the back of him? David
:12:31. > :12:33.Cameron is right, there are probably a few fruitcakes around there. I
:12:34. > :12:41.think that mainstream conservatives will understand that this is the
:12:42. > :12:45.only party that can secure European reform and give people the choice
:12:46. > :12:49.they have been arguing for. Whatever happens in the European elections,
:12:50. > :12:53.it is a protest vote. We have almost run out of time. We will see this
:12:54. > :13:00.week of Chris Rennard gets the party whip act. There is a battle brewing
:13:01. > :13:04.between Danny Alexander and the common side of the Liberal Democrats
:13:05. > :13:08.and the House of Lords. If he turns up on Monday and asks to be let in,
:13:09. > :13:19.I they going to make a big scene at the gate of Parliament? And the
:13:20. > :13:22.issue will stay in the papers? Yes, they are clearly nervous that Lord
:13:23. > :13:30.Rennard might be tempted to mount a legal bid. That is all for today.
:13:31. > :13:34.Thanks to all my guests. The Daily Politics is back on Monday at midday
:13:35. > :13:37.on BBC Two. And I will be here again next week. Remember if it is Sunday,
:13:38. > :13:39.it is the Sunday Politics.