:00:36. > :00:42.Politics. Ed Balls has gone socialist and
:00:43. > :00:47.fiscal Conservative in one speech. He promises to balance the biggest
:00:48. > :00:50.bit of the budget. And to bring back the 50p top tax rate. Political
:00:51. > :00:55.masterstroke, or a return to old Labour?
:00:56. > :00:58.If you go to work by public transport, chances are the price of
:00:59. > :01:00.your ticket has just gone up - again. We'll speak to Transport
:01:01. > :01:03.Secretary Patrick McLoughlin. He's our Sunday Interview.
:01:04. > :01:06.And it's been another wet week our Sunday Interview.
:01:07. > :01:11.across much of the UK, but what s the outlook according to this man?
:01:12. > :01:15.This morning.This morning. Held in recent years by party
:01:16. > :01:39.On the Sunday Politics in the North East...
:01:40. > :01:43.And with me - as always - the political panel so fresh-faced,
:01:44. > :01:46.entertaining and downright popular they make Justin Bieber look like a
:01:47. > :01:49.boring old has-been just desperate to get your attention. Nick Watt,
:01:50. > :01:52.Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh, and they'll be tweeting quicker than a
:01:53. > :02:09.yellow Lamborghini racing down Miami Beach. Being political nerds, they
:02:10. > :02:13.have no idea what I'm talking about. Ed Balls sprung a surprise on us all
:02:14. > :02:16.yesterday. We kinda thought Labour would head for the election with a
:02:17. > :02:20.return to the 50p top rate of tax. But we didn't think he'd do it now.
:02:21. > :02:24.He did! The polls say it's popular, Labour activists now have a spring
:02:25. > :02:27.in their step. The Tories say it's a return to the bad old days of the
:02:28. > :02:29.'70s, and bosses now think Labour is anti-business. Here's the Shadow
:02:30. > :02:32.Chancellor speaking earlier this morning. I was part of a Government
:02:33. > :02:35.which did very many things to open up markets, to make the Bank of
:02:36. > :02:37.England independent, to work closely with business, but the reality is we
:02:38. > :02:39.are in very difficult circumstances and because if I'm honest you,
:02:40. > :02:43.George Osborne's failure in the last few years, those difficult
:02:44. > :02:53.circumstances will last into the next Parliament. Business people
:02:54. > :02:59.have said to me they want to get the deficit down, of course they do But
:03:00. > :03:02.to cut the top rate... It is foolish and feeds resentment I want to do
:03:03. > :03:07.the opposite and say look, pro-business, pro investment, pro
:03:08. > :03:11.market, but pro fairness. Let's get this deficit down in a fairway and
:03:12. > :03:17.make the reforms to make our economy work for the long term. What are the
:03:18. > :03:24.political implications of Labour now in favour of a 50%, in practise 352%
:03:25. > :03:27.top rate of tax? One of the political implications I don't think
:03:28. > :03:31.exist is that they'll win new voters. I'm not sure many people out
:03:32. > :03:36.there would think, I would love to vote for Ed Miliband but I'm not
:03:37. > :03:42.sure if he wants to tax rich people enough. It will con Dale their
:03:43. > :03:50.existing vote but I don't think it is the kind of, in the 1990s we
:03:51. > :03:53.talked about triangulation, moving beyond your core vote, I don't think
:03:54. > :03:57.it is a policy like that. If there has been a policy like that this
:03:58. > :04:00.year, this month, it has been the Tories' move on minimum wage. I
:04:01. > :04:05.thought Labour would come back with their own version, a centre-right
:04:06. > :04:09.policy, and instead they have done this. I think we talk about the 35%
:04:10. > :04:16.strategy that Labour supposed will have, I think it is a policy in that
:04:17. > :04:23.direction rather than the thing Tony Blair or Gordon Brown would have
:04:24. > :04:29.done. Where he was not clear is on how much it would raise. We know the
:04:30. > :04:34.sum in the grand scheme of things isn't much, the bedroom tax was
:04:35. > :04:41.about sending a message. What we are going to see is George Osborne and
:04:42. > :04:47.Ed Balls lock as they try to push the other one into saying things
:04:48. > :04:55.that are unpopular. The Tories, ?150,000 a year, that's exactly
:04:56. > :05:00.where Ed Balls want them to be. All three main parties have roughly the
:05:01. > :05:03.same plan, to run a current budget surplus by the end of the next
:05:04. > :05:09.Parliament. George Osborne said ?12 billion of welfare cuts, hasn't said
:05:10. > :05:14.how he is going to do it. Ed Balls is giving an idea that he is going
:05:15. > :05:18.to restore this 50 persons rate The contribution of that will be
:05:19. > :05:23.deminimus. It is not much, but what does it say about your values.
:05:24. > :05:27.Because it is that package, it is cleverer than people think. Where
:05:28. > :05:30.the challenge is is the question that Peter Mandelson posed at the
:05:31. > :05:36.last election, which is can the Labour Party win a general election
:05:37. > :05:39.if it doesn't have business on its side? That's the big challenge and
:05:40. > :05:43.that's the question looking difficult for them this morning
:05:44. > :05:49.Does it matter if Labour has business on its side. I thought the
:05:50. > :05:53.most fascinating thing about this announcement is it came from the guy
:05:54. > :05:58.mindful of business support, Ed Balls. When in opposition and when a
:05:59. > :06:04.Minister and as a shadow as a result, he's been far more conscious
:06:05. > :06:08.than Ed Miliband about the need not to alienate the CB Bill. In the
:06:09. > :06:13.run-up of an election. This is a measure of Ed Miliband's strength in
:06:14. > :06:18.the Labour Party, that his view of things can prevail so easily over a
:06:19. > :06:24.guy who for the last 15 years has taken a different view. Eight out of
:06:25. > :06:29.ten businesses according to the CBI don't want us to leave business
:06:30. > :06:34.Business is in a bit of a cleft stick. Ed Miliband would like to see
:06:35. > :06:35.businesses squealing, and Ed Balls is clearly not so comfortable on
:06:36. > :06:40.that one. is clearly not so comfortable on
:06:41. > :06:44.that. Mind you, they were squealing this morning from Davos. They
:06:45. > :06:49.probably had hangovers as well. The other thing they would say is this
:06:50. > :06:54.is not like Ed Balls thinks that 50p is the optimal rate forever, it what
:06:55. > :06:59.go eventually. Isn't that what politicians said when income tax was
:07:00. > :07:03.introduced? Yeah, in '97 Labour regarded 40 persons as the rate
:07:04. > :07:09.where it would stay. It's been a bad week for the Lib
:07:10. > :07:12.Dems. Again. Actually, it's been one of the worst weeks yet for Nick
:07:13. > :07:15.Clegg and his party in recent memory, as they've gone from talking
:07:16. > :07:17.confidently about their role in Government to facing a storm of
:07:18. > :07:20.criticism over claims of inappropriate sexual behaviour by a
:07:21. > :07:25.Lib Dem peer, Chris Rennard, and a Lib Dem MP, Mike Hancock. Here's
:07:26. > :07:29.Giles with the story of the week. A challenge to Nick Clegg's authority
:07:30. > :07:34.as he face as growing row over the Liberal Democrat... I want everyone
:07:35. > :07:38.to be treated with respect by the Liberal Democrats. We are expecting
:07:39. > :07:45.him to show moral leadership on our behalf. A good man has been publicly
:07:46. > :07:49.destroyed by the media with the apparent support of Nick Clegg. I
:07:50. > :07:55.would like Nick Clegg to show leadership and say, this has got to
:07:56. > :08:02.stop. When Nick Clegg woke up on Monday morning he knew he was in
:08:03. > :08:05.trouble, staring down the barrel of a stand justify with Lord Rennard
:08:06. > :08:10.over allegations that the peer a stand justify with Lord Rennard
:08:11. > :08:13.inappropriately touched a number of women. Chris Rennard
:08:14. > :08:18.inappropriately touched a number of cleared. Nick Clegg wanted more I
:08:19. > :08:21.said if he doesn't apologise, he should withdraw from the House of
:08:22. > :08:30.Lords. If he does that today, what do you do then? I hope he doesn t. I
:08:31. > :08:34.think no apology, no whip. 2014 was starting badly for the Liberal
:08:35. > :08:38.Democrats. Chris Rennard refused to apologise, saying you can't say
:08:39. > :08:43.sorry for something you haven't done. The and he was leaning towards
:08:44. > :08:47.legal action. Butch us friends better defending Pym and publicly.
:08:48. > :08:51.This is a good, decent man, who has been punished by the party, with the
:08:52. > :08:56.leadership of the party that seems to be showing scant regard for due
:08:57. > :09:02.process. But his accusers felt very differently. It is untenable for the
:09:03. > :09:06.Lib Dems to have a credible voice on qualities and women's issues in the
:09:07. > :09:13.future if Lord Rennard was allowed to be back on the Lib Dem benches in
:09:14. > :09:17.the House of Lords. Therein lay the problem that exposed the weaknesses
:09:18. > :09:24.of the Lib Dem leaders. The party's internal structures have all the
:09:25. > :09:28.simplicity of a circuit diagram for a supercomputer, exposing the
:09:29. > :09:33.complexity of who runs the Liberal Democrats? The simple question that
:09:34. > :09:38.arose of that was can the leader of the Lib Dems remove a Lib Dem peer?
:09:39. > :09:43.The simple answer is no. The Lib Dem whips in the Lords could do it but
:09:44. > :09:49.if enough Lib Dem peers disagreed, they could overrule it. Some
:09:50. > :09:53.long-stand ng friends of roar Rennard think he is either the
:09:54. > :09:56.innocent victim of a media witch-hunt or at the least due
:09:57. > :10:02.process has been ridden over rough shot by the leadership. Nobody ever
:10:03. > :10:05.did spot Lord Rennard as he didn't turn up to the Lords, will citing
:10:06. > :10:10.ill health. But issued a statement that ruled out an apology. He
:10:11. > :10:13.refused to do so and refused to comply with the outcome of that
:10:14. > :10:18.report, so there was no alternative but for the party to suspend his
:10:19. > :10:23.membership today. On Wednesday Nick Clegg met Lib Dem peers, not for a
:10:24. > :10:26.crunch decision, but to discuss the extraordinary prospect of legal
:10:27. > :10:29.action against the party by the man long credited with building its
:10:30. > :10:34.success. The situation was making the party look like a joke. One Tory
:10:35. > :10:37.MP said to one of my colleagues this morning, the funny thing about the
:10:38. > :10:41.Liberal Democrats, you managed to create a whole sex scandal without
:10:42. > :10:45.any sex. And we can laugh at ourselves but actually it is rather
:10:46. > :10:50.serious. And it got more serious, when an MP who had resigned the Lib
:10:51. > :10:55.Dem whip last year was expanded from the party over a report into
:10:56. > :10:59.allegations of serious and unwelcome sexual behaviour towards a
:11:00. > :11:04.constituent. All of this leaves the Lib Dems desperately wishing these
:11:05. > :11:10.sagas had been dealt with long ago and would now go away. Nick Clegg
:11:11. > :11:15.ended the week still party leader. Lord Rennard, once one of their most
:11:16. > :11:20.powerful players, ended the week, for now, no longer even in it.
:11:21. > :11:24.Giles on the Lib Dems' disastrous week. Now, as you doubtless already
:11:25. > :11:31.know, on Tuesday Lib Dem MPs will vote to choose a new deputy leader.
:11:32. > :11:35.You didn't know that? You do now. The job of Nick Clegg's number two
:11:36. > :11:38.is to speak with a genuine Lib Dem voice, untainted by the demands of
:11:39. > :11:41.coalition Government. At this point in the show we had expected to speak
:11:42. > :11:45.to all three candidates for the post, held in recent years by party
:11:46. > :11:52.veterans like Vince Cable and Simon Hughes. We thought it being quite a
:11:53. > :11:56.significant week for the party, they might have something to say. And
:11:57. > :12:02.here they are. Well that's their pictures. For various reasons, all
:12:03. > :12:06.three are now unavailable. Malcolm Bruce, he's reckoned to be the
:12:07. > :12:09.outsider. His office said he had a "family commitment". Gordon
:12:10. > :12:13.Birtwistle, the Burnley MP, was booked to appear but then told us,
:12:14. > :12:16."I was at an event last night with Lorely Burt" - she's one of the
:12:17. > :12:22.candidates - "and she told me it was off". And Lorely Burt herself, seen
:12:23. > :12:25.by many as the red hot favourite, told us: "Because of the Rennard
:12:26. > :12:33.thing we don't want to put ourselves in a position where we have to
:12:34. > :12:41.answer difficult questions." How refreshingly honest. Helen, how bad
:12:42. > :12:45.politically is all this for the Lib Dems? What I think is the tragic
:12:46. > :12:46.irony of the Lib Dems is they've been revealed as being too
:12:47. > :12:51.democratic. In the same way that been revealed as being too
:12:52. > :12:56.their party conference embarrassed Nick Clegg by voting sings that he
:12:57. > :13:02.signed up to, and now everything has to be run past various
:13:03. > :13:14.sub-committees first. Is it democratic or chaotic? It is
:13:15. > :13:20.Byzantine. Mike Hancock was voluntarily suspended, and this week
:13:21. > :13:25.he was properly suspended. It was new information into the public
:13:26. > :13:31.domain that forced that. I'm already hearing Labour and Conservative
:13:32. > :13:35.Party musing that if it is a long Parliament, we will form a minority
:13:36. > :13:39.Government. It is a disaster for them. Voters like parties that
:13:40. > :13:43.reflect and are interested this their concerns. Parties that are
:13:44. > :13:47.self obsessed turn them off. The third party, if they carry on like
:13:48. > :13:51.this, they'll be the fifth party in the European elections, so they have
:13:52. > :13:56.got to draw a line under this. They do that, if they do, through
:13:57. > :14:01.mediation. As I understand it, Chris Rennard,s who has go devoted his
:14:02. > :14:04.entire life to the Liberal Democrats, and previously the
:14:05. > :14:08.Liberal Party, is keen to draw a line under this. He is up for
:14:09. > :14:12.mediation but he needs to know that the women that he has clearly
:14:13. > :14:16.invaded their personal space, that there wouldn't be a possible legal a
:14:17. > :14:17.action from them. The it is very difficult to see how you could
:14:18. > :14:24.resolve that. Except he difficult to see how you could
:14:25. > :14:29.these famous friends, to spill all the beans about all the party's sex
:14:30. > :14:33.secrets. Isn't the danger for the Lib Dems, this haunts them through
:14:34. > :14:36.to the European elections, where they'll get thumped in the European
:14:37. > :14:40.elections? They'll get destroyed in the European elections, which keeps
:14:41. > :14:45.it salient as a story over the summer. And it has implications for
:14:46. > :14:49.Nick Clegg's leadership. He's done a good job until now, perhaps better
:14:50. > :14:53.than David Cameron, of exercising authority over his party. He had a
:14:54. > :14:57.good conference in September. Absolutely, and now the Lib Dems
:14:58. > :15:02.have looked like a party without a leader or a leadership structure.
:15:03. > :15:06.Part of that is down to the chaotic or Byzantine organisational
:15:07. > :15:09.structure of the party. Part of it is Nick Clegg's failure to assert
:15:10. > :15:18.himself and impose himself over events. Is it Byzantine or
:15:19. > :15:29.Byzantine. It is labyrinthine. You don't get these words on the Today
:15:30. > :15:32.programme. The cost of living has been back on the agenda this week as
:15:33. > :15:36.Labour and the Tories argue over whether the value of money in your
:15:37. > :15:39.pocket is going up or down. Well there's one cost which has been
:15:40. > :15:43.racing ahead of inflation and that's the amount you have to pay to travel
:15:44. > :15:45.by train, by bus and by air. Rail commuters have been hard hit over
:15:46. > :15:49.the last four years, with the cost of the average season ticket going
:15:50. > :15:53.up by 18% since January 2010, while wages have gone up by just 3.6% over
:15:54. > :15:55.the same period. It wages have gone up by just 3.6% over
:15:56. > :16:01.users are paying high prices wages have gone up by just 3.6% over
:16:02. > :16:06.commuters from Kent shelling out more than ?5,000 per year from the
:16:07. > :16:11.beginning of this month just to get to work in London. It doesn't
:16:12. > :16:16.compare well with our European counterparts. In the UK the average
:16:17. > :16:24.rail user spends 14% of their average income on trains. It is just
:16:25. > :16:30.1.5% in Italy. Regulated fares like season tickets went up 3.1% at the
:16:31. > :16:34.beginning of this month, and with ministers keen to make passengers
:16:35. > :16:37.fought more of the bills, there are more fare rises coming down the
:16:38. > :16:51.track. And Patrick McLoughlin joins me now for the Sunday Interview
:16:52. > :16:55.Welcome. You claim to be in the party of hard-working people, so why
:16:56. > :16:59.is it that since you came to power rail commuters have seen the cost of
:17:00. > :17:08.their average season ticket going up in money terms by over 18% while
:17:09. > :17:14.their pay has gone up in money terms by less than four? I would point out
:17:15. > :17:20.that this is the first year in ten years that we have not had an above
:17:21. > :17:25.inflation increase on fares. The Government accepts we have got to do
:17:26. > :17:33.as much as we can to help the passengers. A big inflation increase
:17:34. > :17:40.since 2010. This is the first year in ten years that it has not been
:17:41. > :17:45.above RPI, but we are also investing huge amounts of money into the
:17:46. > :17:50.railways, building new trains for the East Coast Main Line and the
:17:51. > :17:56.great Western. We are spending 500 million at Birmingham station, this
:17:57. > :18:00.is all increasing capacity, so we are seeing investments. Over the
:18:01. > :18:10.next five years Network Rail will invest over ?38 billion in the
:18:11. > :18:15.network structure. We also have an expensive railway and it is ordinary
:18:16. > :18:21.people paying for it. A season ticket from Woking in Surrey,
:18:22. > :18:27.commuter belt land in London, let's look at the figures. This is a
:18:28. > :18:36.distance of over 25 miles, it cost over ?3000 per year. We have picked
:18:37. > :18:45.similar distances to international cities.
:18:46. > :18:53.The British commuter is being ripped off. The British commuter is seeing
:18:54. > :18:58.record levels of investment in our railways. The investment has to be
:18:59. > :19:02.paid for. We are investing huge amounts of money and I don't know
:19:03. > :19:19.whether the figures you have got here... I'm sure they are likewise,
:19:20. > :19:28.as you have managed to do... White -- ten times more than the Italian
:19:29. > :19:32.equivalent. We have seen transformational changes in our
:19:33. > :19:37.railway services and we need to carry on investing. We were paying
:19:38. > :19:42.these prices even before you started investing. We have always paid a lot
:19:43. > :19:51.more to commute in this country than our European equivalents. I'm not
:19:52. > :19:57.quite sure I want to take on Italy is a great example. You would if you
:19:58. > :20:03.were a commuter. You is a great example. You would if you
:20:04. > :20:09.the other rates of taxation has to be paid as well. Isn't it the case
:20:10. > :20:13.they are making profits out of these figures and using them to subsidise
:20:14. > :20:22.cheaper fares back in their homeland? The overall profit margin
:20:23. > :20:25.train companies make is 3%, a reasonable amount, and we have seen
:20:26. > :20:30.a revolution as far as the railway industry is concerned.
:20:31. > :20:30.a revolution as far as the railway 20 years we have seen passenger
:20:31. > :20:40.journeys going from 750 million 20 years we have seen passenger
:20:41. > :20:44.1.5 billion. That is a massive revolution in rail. Let me look
:20:45. > :20:45.1.5 billion. That is a massive spokesperson for the German
:20:46. > :20:58.government, the Ministry of transport.
:20:59. > :21:05.They are charging huge fares in Britain to take that money back to
:21:06. > :21:10.subsidise fares in Germany. What do you say to that? We are seeing
:21:11. > :21:16.British companies winning contracts in Germany. The National Express are
:21:17. > :21:20.winning contracts to the railways. What about the ordinary commuter?
:21:21. > :21:25.They are paying through the nose so German commuters can travel more
:21:26. > :21:30.cheaply. We are still subsidising the railways in this country, but
:21:31. > :21:36.overall we want to reduce the subsidy we are giving. We are still
:21:37. > :21:42.seeing growth in our railways and I want to see more people using them.
:21:43. > :21:48.Why do you increase rail fares at the higher RPI measure than the
:21:49. > :21:54.lower CPI measurement? That is what has always been done, and we have
:21:55. > :22:00.stopped. This is the first time in ten years that we have not raised
:22:01. > :22:07.the rail figures above RPI. You still link fares to RPI.
:22:08. > :22:12.lower CPI figure when it suits you, lower CPI figure when it suits you,
:22:13. > :22:17.to keep pension payments down for example, but the higher one when it
:22:18. > :22:21.comes to increasing rail fares. We are still putting a huge subsidy
:22:22. > :22:26.into the rail industry, there is still a huge amount of money going
:22:27. > :22:32.from the taxpayer to support the rail industry. I am not asking you
:22:33. > :22:40.about that, I am asking you why you link the figures to the higher RPI
:22:41. > :22:46.vesture Mark if we are going to pay for the levels of investment, so all
:22:47. > :22:51.the new trains being built at Newton Aycliffe for the East Coast Main
:22:52. > :22:55.Line and the great Western, ?3. billion of investment, new rolling
:22:56. > :22:59.stock coming online, then yes, we have to pay for it, and it is a
:23:00. > :23:13.question of the taxpayer paying for it all the -- or the passenger.
:23:14. > :23:16.You have capped parking fines until the next election, rail commuters we
:23:17. > :23:26.have seen the cost of their ticket has gone up by nearly 20%, you are
:23:27. > :23:33.the party of the drivers, not the passengers, aren't you?
:23:34. > :23:47.We are trying to help everybody who has been struggling. I think we are
:23:48. > :23:51.setting out long-term plans for our railways, investing heavily in them
:23:52. > :23:56.and it is getting that balance right. But you have done more for
:23:57. > :24:04.the driver than you have for the user of public transport. I don t
:24:05. > :24:10.accept that. They are paying the same petrol prices as 2011. This is
:24:11. > :24:17.the first time in ten years that there has not been an RPI plus
:24:18. > :24:24.rise. We are investing record amounts. Bus fares are also rising,
:24:25. > :24:30.4.2% in real terms in 2010, at a time when real take-home pay has
:24:31. > :24:36.been falling. This hits commuters particularly workers who use buses
:24:37. > :24:40.on low incomes, another cost of living squeeze. I was with
:24:41. > :24:54.Stagecoach in Manchester on Friday, and I saw a bus company investing in
:24:55. > :25:00.new buses. Last week First ordered new buses. Part of your hard-working
:25:01. > :25:06.families you are always on about, they are the ones going to work
:25:07. > :25:10.early in the morning, and yet you are making them pay more for their
:25:11. > :25:17.buses in real terms than they did before. They would be happier if
:25:18. > :25:22.they could travel more cheaply. It is about getting investment in
:25:23. > :25:31.services, it has to be paid for Why not run the old buses for five more
:25:32. > :25:35.years? Because then there is more pollution in the atmosphere, modern
:25:36. > :25:39.buses have lower emissions, and we are still giving huge support
:25:40. > :25:42.overall to the bus industry and that is very important because I fully
:25:43. > :25:52.accept that the number of people, yes, use the train but a lot of
:25:53. > :25:58.people use buses as well. High-speed two, it has been delayed because 877
:25:59. > :26:05.pages of key evidence from your department were left on a computer
:26:06. > :26:08.memory stick, part of the submission to environmental consultation. Your
:26:09. > :26:16.department's economic case is now widely regarded as a joke, now you
:26:17. > :26:22.do this. Is your department fit for purpose? Yes, and as far as what
:26:23. > :26:25.happened with the memory stick, it is an acceptable and shouldn't have
:26:26. > :26:31.happened, and therefore we have extended the time. There has been an
:26:32. > :26:41.extension in the time for people to make representation, the bill for
:26:42. > :26:54.this goes through Parliament in a different way to a normal bill. It
:26:55. > :26:59.is vital HS2 provides what we want. What I am very pleased about is when
:27:00. > :27:04.the paving bill was passed by Parliament just a few months ago,
:27:05. > :27:10.there was overwhelming support, and I kept reading there was going to be
:27:11. > :27:14.70 people voting against it, in the end 30 people voted against it and
:27:15. > :27:19.there was a good majority in the House of Commons. So can you give a
:27:20. > :27:27.guarantee that this legislation will get onto the statute books? I will
:27:28. > :27:31.do all I can. I cannot tell you the exact Parliamentary time scale. The
:27:32. > :27:39.bill will have started its progress through the House of Commons by
:27:40. > :27:45.2015, and it may well have concluded. The new chairman of HS2
:27:46. > :27:56.said he can bring the cost of the line substantially under the budget,
:27:57. > :28:01.do you agree with that? The figure is ?42 billion with a large
:28:02. > :28:06.contingency, and David Higgins, as chairman of HS2, is looking at the
:28:07. > :28:11.whole cast and seeing if there are ways in which it can be built
:28:12. > :28:16.faster. At the moment across London we are building Crossrail, ?14.
:28:17. > :28:18.billion investment. There was a report last week saying what an
:28:19. > :28:29.excellent job has been done. Crossrail started under Labour.
:28:30. > :28:37.Actually it was Cecil Parkinson in the 1990 party conference. You may
:28:38. > :28:43.get HS2 cheaper if you didn't pay people so much, why is the
:28:44. > :28:52.nonexecutive chairman of HS2 on ?600,000? And the new chief
:28:53. > :28:55.executive on ?750,000. These are very big projects and we need to
:28:56. > :29:01.attract the best people become so we are going for the best engineers in
:29:02. > :29:06.the world to engineer this project. It is a large salary, there is no
:29:07. > :29:10.question about it, but I'm rather pleased that engineers rather than
:29:11. > :29:15.bankers can be seen to get big rewards for delivering what will be
:29:16. > :29:19.very important pieces of national infrastructure. I didn't have time
:29:20. > :29:25.to ask you about your passenger duty so perhaps another time. We are
:29:26. > :29:29.about to speak to Nigel Mills and all of these MPs on your side who
:29:30. > :29:34.are rebelling against the Government, how would you handle
:29:35. > :29:39.them? We have got to listen to what our colleagues are talking about and
:29:40. > :29:44.try to respond it. Would you take them for a long walk off a short
:29:45. > :29:56.pier? I'm sure I would have many conversations with them. An
:29:57. > :30:03.immigration bill to tack the immigration into the UK. When limits
:30:04. > :30:08.on migration from Bulgaria and Romania were lifted this year there
:30:09. > :30:12.were warnings of a large influx of migrant workerses from the two new
:30:13. > :30:18.European countries. So far it's been more of a dribble than a flood. Who
:30:19. > :30:22.can forget Labour MP Keith Vaz greeting a handful of arrivals at
:30:23. > :30:27.Luton Airport. But it is early days and it is one of the reasons the
:30:28. > :30:31.Government's introduced a new Immigration Bill. The Prime Minister
:30:32. > :30:37.is facing rebellion from backbenchers who want tougher action
:30:38. > :30:46.on immigration from abroad. Nigel Mills would reimpose restrictions on
:30:47. > :30:53.how many Romanians and Bulgarians can come here. Joining me is Nigel
:30:54. > :30:57.Mills, Conservative MP behind the amendment and Labour MP Diane
:30:58. > :31:05.Abbott. Welcome. Nigel Mills, there hasn't been an influx of Romanians
:31:06. > :31:09.and Bulgarians. Why do you want to restore these, kick these
:31:10. > :31:14.transitional controls way forward to 2019? I don't think any of us were
:31:15. > :31:19.expecting a rush on January 1st Andrew. I think we were talking
:31:20. > :31:24.about a range of 250,000 to 350 000 people over five years. That's
:31:25. > :31:29.obviously a large amount of people, especially when you think net
:31:30. > :31:32.migration to the UK was well in excess of the Government's target of
:31:33. > :31:38.tens of thousands last year. The real concern is that it would be
:31:39. > :31:44.ever increasing our population, attracting lots of low-skilled,
:31:45. > :31:48.low-wage people, which keeps our people out of work and wages down.
:31:49. > :31:53.Did you accept that if you were to accept this, it would be in breach
:31:54. > :31:58.of the Treaty of Rome, the founding principle of the European Union We
:31:59. > :32:02.were trying to keep the restrictions that Bulgaria and Romania accepted
:32:03. > :32:05.for their first seven years of EU membership, on the basis that when
:32:06. > :32:10.we signed the treaty we weren't aware that we would have a huge and
:32:11. > :32:15.catastrophic recession we are still recovering from. But you would be in
:32:16. > :32:19.breach of the law, correct? The UK Parliament has a right to say we
:32:20. > :32:24.signed this deal before the terrible recession, and we need a bit longer
:32:25. > :32:31.in our national interest. It is worth noting that Bulgaria and
:32:32. > :32:35.Romania haven't met all their accession requirements. The
:32:36. > :32:40.Bulgarian requirement passed a law... So if they break the law it
:32:41. > :32:46.is alright for us to break the law? Is we should be focusing on trying
:32:47. > :32:51.to get 2. 4 million of our own in work, and 1 million people not in
:32:52. > :32:57.work... Let me bring in Diane Abbott. Will you vote for this
:32:58. > :32:59.amendment and why? It is in breach of the treaty. While I deplore MPs
:33:00. > :33:03.that try to cause trouble, these of the treaty. While I deplore MPs
:33:04. > :33:07.have been particularly mindless because what they want to do
:33:08. > :33:13.wouldn't be legal. However, it is a Tory internal brief, if I might say
:33:14. > :33:21.so. Maybe you can cause trouble by voting for it. No, that would be
:33:22. > :33:24.going too far. Underlying it is a real antagonism for David Cameron.
:33:25. > :33:28.They have had to hold off on this bill until January. It was supposed
:33:29. > :33:34.to be debating before Christmas As we speak they've not cut a deal so
:33:35. > :33:40.it could be pretty grus om. Nigel Mills, what do you say to that I
:33:41. > :33:44.think there is a recognition that there is a problem with the amount
:33:45. > :33:49.of migration from EU countries that we need to tackle. We could try to
:33:50. > :33:52.achieve an annual cap perhaps, longer limits on when countries get
:33:53. > :33:56.free movement. I think the debate is moving in the right direction, but I
:33:57. > :34:00.think those people who are trapped out of work and desperately looking
:34:01. > :34:06.for work want something to be done now and not wait a few more years
:34:07. > :34:10.while we have more assessments Andrews. People are worried about
:34:11. > :34:15.the level of immigration. They I it is too high. That's the consensus in
:34:16. > :34:20.the country. We spoke to to migration centre in Hackney and they
:34:21. > :34:24.said they are struggling to cope with the number of people using
:34:25. > :34:29.their services. These are people with problems with the law. In the
:34:30. > :34:33.past years EU migrants put in more to the economy in taxation than they
:34:34. > :34:37.take out in benefits. When it comes to free movement, which
:34:38. > :34:41.take out in benefits. When it comes Nige em, that horse has bolted. We
:34:42. > :34:46.signed a treaty. There is nothing people like Nigel Mills can do,
:34:47. > :34:50.unless they want to rip their party apart, God forbid. Will you go as
:34:51. > :34:55.far as to rip your party apart, Nigel Mills? Are you going to take
:34:56. > :35:00.this all the way? Would you rather see this bill go down than your
:35:01. > :35:06.amendment not be accepted? This is a very important bill. I think we all
:35:07. > :35:10.want to see measures on the statute book, so the last thing we want to
:35:11. > :35:15.see is this bill go down. We do need to set out clearly that we have real
:35:16. > :35:22.concerns about the level of EU migration and something needs to be
:35:23. > :35:27.done. Would you rather have the bill without your amendment or no bill at
:35:28. > :35:29.all? I am hoping we can have the bill with the amendment. I know
:35:30. > :35:34.all? I am hoping we can have the that, but if you can't? Is that will
:35:35. > :35:40.depend on what the Labour Party decide to do. They are talking
:35:41. > :35:44.tougher on immigration but will they take action on it? Your party has
:35:45. > :35:47.been talking tough on immigration but I will be surprised if an Ed
:35:48. > :35:51.Miliband Labour Party would vote for but I will be surprised if an Ed
:35:52. > :35:56.egg in direct cameravention of the Treaty of Rome. It would make no
:35:57. > :36:03.sense. Nigel Mills is wishing for the impossible. If I was a Tory I
:36:04. > :36:06.would be wringing high hands. He hasn't ruled out crashing the bill.
:36:07. > :36:11.That's incredible. Where will this That's incredible. Where will this
:36:12. > :36:16.end, Nigel Mills? We'll end with a vote on Thursday. There's a lot of
:36:17. > :36:20.amendments people can use to show their concern about migration. We
:36:21. > :36:22.want limited and proportionate action, and that's what I am
:36:23. > :36:27.proposing. I want to see the bill on action, and that's what I am
:36:28. > :36:32.the statute book, I want the restrictions on people who shouldn't
:36:33. > :36:36.be here getting bank accounts and driving licences. I don't want to
:36:37. > :36:42.crash this bill but there's more measures we need in it. Nigel Mills
:36:43. > :36:47.thank you. You are going to be - popping up I think on the Sunday
:36:48. > :36:54.Politics East Midlands. Diane Abbott, thank you as well.
:36:55. > :36:56.We're in for more heavy rain and high winds across the UK today. You
:36:57. > :36:58.may remember that one UKIP high winds across the UK today. You
:36:59. > :37:01.councillor - he's since been suspended - caused controversy last
:37:02. > :37:03.weekend by blaming the recent flooding on the legalisation of gay
:37:04. > :37:07.marriage. Why didn't I think of that? So who better than this man to
:37:08. > :37:09.bring you the unofficial forecast. I'll be bringing you the late least
:37:10. > :37:19.UKIP weather from your area. You're watching Sunday Politics
:37:20. > :37:21.Also coming up in just over 20 minutes, I'll be looking at the week
:37:22. > :37:40.ahead with our political panel. A warm welcome to the local part of
:37:41. > :37:48.the show from the North East and Cumbria. The week has been dominated
:37:49. > :37:54.by cuts to the fire services. We will discuss it with two local MPs.
:37:55. > :38:02.Also, we hear the children are going hungry because she the parents have
:38:03. > :38:05.had their benefits stopped. We ask whether government sanctions and
:38:06. > :38:16.job`seekers are being efferent fairway. The economic boost was not
:38:17. > :38:23.sheared with the new unemployment figures. We could not imagine
:38:24. > :38:27.anything worse for the region. There is progress in the rest of the
:38:28. > :38:38.country and at best, it is stagnating here or perhaps even
:38:39. > :38:43.getting worse. The two areas in the most problem is the North East and
:38:44. > :38:50.the south`west. We have two entries the likes of communication. I want
:38:51. > :38:55.to get apprenticeships and new jobs in the area. We suffer from the loss
:38:56. > :39:04.of jobs from the older industries and from the public sector. We were
:39:05. > :39:11.warned that the government policies would affect the North East much
:39:12. > :39:16.more and no we are of that. We could not sit and watch the public debt
:39:17. > :39:24.grow and grow so public sector cuts were inevitable. However, I do not
:39:25. > :39:28.see that the cuts will come anyway to balancing the books. It does mean
:39:29. > :39:31.we have to work a lot harder for jobs in the North East and Vince
:39:32. > :39:38.Cable has been doing that. There have been good signs underneath the
:39:39. > :39:43.headlines. There is some hope the but a lot of the jobs have been
:39:44. > :39:50.treated as Eagle awards contracts, low paid. Unemployment in the North
:39:51. > :39:56.East is 20% worse than in any other region of the country, so it is dire
:39:57. > :40:01.here. When I challenged Vince Cable about this, he did not have anything
:40:02. > :40:06.to say. He talked about in regional growth fund, but that is not helping
:40:07. > :40:09.to get money to the small and medium`size businesses who could be
:40:10. > :40:15.growing the economy. The government need to be doing something. Letters
:40:16. > :40:23.move on to another story. The political fallout from the cuts to
:40:24. > :40:30.the fire service. One regional MP has called for a rethink on the
:40:31. > :40:43.decision. The cuts will mean 150 redundancies. It is proving a hot
:40:44. > :40:47.issue, if you permit the pun. In three years time, there will be no
:40:48. > :40:57.fire station in the heart of Sunderland. What do people think of
:40:58. > :41:08.that? My son is eight firemen. The consequences are grave. In response
:41:09. > :41:14.times. It is a disgrace. It is the same with the police station.
:41:15. > :41:21.Everything is going from Sunderland. This issue has put politicians and
:41:22. > :41:26.tricky spots. It was taken by a Labour dominated Fire authority, but
:41:27. > :41:31.the Labour MP is not pulling her punches. It is totally the wrong
:41:32. > :41:36.decision. This was badly thought out and not consulted properly. This is
:41:37. > :41:44.the worst possible scenario. We have to think again. Fires which affected
:41:45. > :41:49.property on life. We responded to as quickly as they were before. The
:41:50. > :41:55.location of the station is secondary to making sure we continue to have
:41:56. > :42:00.good response times. All the cuts off at the headlines, there are a
:42:01. > :42:07.lot cuts rate across the region. It will cost 131 jobs in the closing of
:42:08. > :42:11.the fire stations. Cleveland could shed 60 firefighters and eight
:42:12. > :42:19.station could close in Middlesbrough. Cumbria wants to cut
:42:20. > :42:24.five engines and close one station. Give it back fire cuts even in their
:42:25. > :42:29.own backyard or join the protesters? In Penrith, that is what happened.
:42:30. > :42:41.Marches went onto the streets and outfront, the Labour MP. If there
:42:42. > :42:46.was a big pile`up of cars on the M6, you simply would not be able to
:42:47. > :42:49.respond quickly enough. When you have people protesting in the
:42:50. > :42:56.streets and then even, they have to be paid attention to. What about NT
:42:57. > :43:05.say? This fire burned for a fortnight. We have a number of fire
:43:06. > :43:12.risk places in the region. I want the risks properly assessed. They
:43:13. > :43:23.have to be fit for purpose for any eventuality. For some politicians,
:43:24. > :43:30.the outgoing the party line scenario is going up in smoke. Let us talk to
:43:31. > :43:39.the local MP. Who is to blame for this `the government or the
:43:40. > :43:47.Labour`controlled fire authority? I think they are very culpable. The
:43:48. > :43:51.authority has been placed in a very difficult situation. But we think
:43:52. > :43:54.they did have options. They have the biggest reserves in England, that is
:43:55. > :43:58.in their in their own words, and what they
:43:59. > :44:04.have chosen is the worst case scenario. I was at the meeting, but
:44:05. > :44:10.the reserves are like savings. If you depend, you might be OK this
:44:11. > :44:15.year, but next year, you will have to find the money some other way. I
:44:16. > :44:19.find it offensive that local politicians are making cheap
:44:20. > :44:24.political points by finger`pointing at each other. There are people 's
:44:25. > :44:31.lives and people 's livelihoods at stake here. At the meeting, the
:44:32. > :44:39.language changed from we can use to the reserves to we choose not to.
:44:40. > :44:47.When we are talking about station closures and the loss of jobs, we
:44:48. > :44:52.feel that is unacceptable. Julian said the consultation was not
:44:53. > :44:57.carried out correctly. Would we have to ask the same people again? With
:44:58. > :45:03.respect, the petition was Ashley handed in by a member of the public.
:45:04. > :45:11.The person involved collected hundreds of signatures. We have the
:45:12. > :45:21.population of 1.1 million. I would guess at least 50% of those who
:45:22. > :45:26.actually went to the meetings were probably families of firefighters. I
:45:27. > :45:29.would not read too much into them. But for a consultation to take
:45:30. > :45:35.place, it has to be meaningful. The public need to be able to take part.
:45:36. > :45:41.They were not aware of what was going on. There was only 270
:45:42. > :45:48.responses to the consultation. What should be happening? They should not
:45:49. > :45:58.be using `` losing their jobs or losing the applications. They have
:45:59. > :46:06.said they will be able to reclaim the good response times of the past.
:46:07. > :46:13.We do not dispute that. We think it is misleading to say that they will
:46:14. > :46:20.not change, however. If you take the fire station out of Sunderland, it
:46:21. > :46:27.will be taking longer to get to a fire in the centre of Sunderland.
:46:28. > :46:32.That is just common sense. They have taken the option which will lead to
:46:33. > :46:39.the biggest possible chance of fatalities. Other fire authorities
:46:40. > :46:45.have come to different decisions. This has not convinced the public.
:46:46. > :46:56.This is not convinced people closest to the fire service. In
:46:57. > :47:01.Northumberland, although our issues, there is a more effective
:47:02. > :47:08.consultation. They were facing much less of a financial meltdown. 8.8
:47:09. > :47:15.million pounds, because the rate the government has adjusted the funds,
:47:16. > :47:22.it hits urban deprived areas because they cannot raise money from council
:47:23. > :47:27.tax. Absolutely. So ugly just morning? Though I do not think they
:47:28. > :47:35.having gauged with the public to make decisions about how they can
:47:36. > :47:41.adjust. I think they have not consulted as to how they could best
:47:42. > :47:44.be efficient. I know you have concerns about what is happening in
:47:45. > :47:50.Cleveland, but on the face of it, you are getting off lightly? I would
:47:51. > :47:54.not have thought so. He said is probably the biggest fire risk in
:47:55. > :48:02.the continent, because of the eight chemical complexes in the region.
:48:03. > :48:08.The decision to close the main fire service is a nonsense. But also to
:48:09. > :48:16.sack 60 firefighters and rely on part`timers, we are increasing their
:48:17. > :48:20.risk. What should be the attitude of Labour councillors? Become
:48:21. > :48:24.complained about the cuts but still put them through. We have to
:48:25. > :48:31.remember this is all the result of government cuts. Labour councils
:48:32. > :48:37.have little choice? They do not. They have to do something. We try to
:48:38. > :48:40.get a delegation to see the fire minister. I think they need to go
:48:41. > :48:47.back and look again at executive pay, the car was allocated to senior
:48:48. > :48:51.managers. We need to look at this again and consult properly, so the
:48:52. > :48:55.public can understand what they are proposing and take the right
:48:56. > :49:01.decisions so that people in petrochemical complexes and
:49:02. > :49:06.elsewhere are kept safe. It is a bit rich for the local Conservative MP,
:49:07. > :49:10.they are raising concerns when ultimately, they must have known
:49:11. > :49:15.this was coming because of the week he government has cut funding. I
:49:16. > :49:23.think Teessiders are a particular serious case. Ultimately, the
:49:24. > :49:30.government has two deal with the financial mess we were left with.
:49:31. > :49:36.But if you compare them to the south of the country, the settlements are
:49:37. > :49:42.worse. That is the key? Through the last government, we found rule
:49:43. > :49:47.counties had far worse settlements. This argument goes on all the time.
:49:48. > :49:54.Some Labour authorities are doing better than others. Other
:49:55. > :50:01.authorities another authorities have other parties have coped better. No,
:50:02. > :50:05.what about economies of scale? Maybe merging fire services in
:50:06. > :50:13.neighbouring counties? If we could share management costs, and save
:50:14. > :50:20.some money in that way, and some of the other things which a colleague
:50:21. > :50:24.suggested, then it could work. However, a bad merger with debtors
:50:25. > :50:33.into the same problems we have heard. We have here the likes of
:50:34. > :50:41.Private fire services, such as the John Lewis firefighters? Would that
:50:42. > :50:47.work? I do not. But I do think there could be merger costs which could
:50:48. > :50:52.work. Local authorities could cut the likes of human resources and
:50:53. > :50:55.make savings in other ways. The government wants to deter people
:50:56. > :51:02.from Ike abusing the benefits system. If you feel to attend an
:51:03. > :51:08.interview, your allowance could be stopped. In extreme cases, this
:51:09. > :51:13.could be up to three years. The government say the sanctions only
:51:14. > :51:21.last resort. But the unions and accusing them of having politically
:51:22. > :51:25.motivated decisions. One of the most deprived areas in England. Some
:51:26. > :51:30.people here claim their jobseeker's allowance is being unfairly stopped
:51:31. > :51:37.due to new benefit sanctions regime. I forgot it am not too an
:51:38. > :51:44.appointment. I note the adviser. I phoned them up and said I forgot. My
:51:45. > :51:51.benefit seemed fine. She said I will have to tell the Department of work
:51:52. > :51:55.and persons. The letter and up on the 20th of December and I was
:51:56. > :52:05.sanctioned over Christmas. I had to go begging for food at the church
:52:06. > :52:16.hall. It was a genuine mistake. I have had to rely on food banks and I
:52:17. > :52:23.also lost in the middle of winter, my gas and electricity. Under a new
:52:24. > :52:28.tougher regime introduced in October, people can use their
:52:29. > :52:33.allowance for up to four week 's and up to three years. Reasons are
:52:34. > :52:40.leaving a job voluntarily through to failing to come up to an interview.
:52:41. > :52:46.Between October 2012 and June of last year, there was a 6% increase
:52:47. > :52:52.compared with the same period a year earlier. In this region, it means
:52:53. > :53:00.nearly 17,500 people in the region had their allowance log stopped.
:53:01. > :53:04.Nearly 16,000 in the Roman Tees Valley and 20,000 in Cumbria and
:53:05. > :53:10.Lancashire. The Department of work and pensions say there are no
:53:11. > :53:14.targets for sanctions. The unions say they been put under pressure to
:53:15. > :53:21.sanction people. Staff are faced with the threat of sanctions
:53:22. > :53:25.themselves, in the form of performance improvement plans. If
:53:26. > :53:33.you look at the guidance for that, it clearly states that it is a major
:53:34. > :53:37.against targets. We believe these are politically motivated targets.
:53:38. > :53:47.Our staff are being forced to carry them out. People say the sanctions
:53:48. > :53:49.are having a devastating effect. We had the Child here. Children's
:53:50. > :53:56.services had called because they felt the child had not been eating.
:53:57. > :54:02.It was true. The child had not been eating because the parent had been
:54:03. > :54:08.sanctioned for three months. The government said sanctions are only
:54:09. > :54:14.used at a last resort and there is a right of appeal. Supporters say the
:54:15. > :54:17.sanctions are necessary. It is part of the government 's attempts to
:54:18. > :54:22.stamp out the something for nothing culture which has been very damaging
:54:23. > :54:26.in the country in recent years. If someone is out of work and looking
:54:27. > :54:31.for work, they should get benefits, but there should be conditions
:54:32. > :54:34.attached. With jobless figures falling nationally, there has been
:54:35. > :54:40.good news for the government regarding unemployment. But critics
:54:41. > :54:50.say poor communities are being made to buy the unfair application of
:54:51. > :54:54.benefit sanctions. Alex, sanctions could be applied fairly, but if you
:54:55. > :54:57.missed appointments or do not convince the job centre like you are
:54:58. > :55:07.looking for work, why should we all fund that lifestyle? There has been
:55:08. > :55:13.a 100 and 40% increase in sanctions. It is even greater for people with
:55:14. > :55:16.disabilities. I have a lot of casework in my office because people
:55:17. > :55:21.are coming to others who have been unfairly sanction. One person was in
:55:22. > :55:28.a corner in the hospital when they were sanctioned. One person who was
:55:29. > :55:36.let down by the local bus company was sanctioned. There are genuine
:55:37. > :55:38.things happening out there. The staff in these places are under
:55:39. > :55:46.pressure and I believe the have targets. Do you think this is
:55:47. > :55:51.politically motivated? There are certainly targets. Whether there are
:55:52. > :55:56.government driven or not I do not know. But we are seeing decisions
:55:57. > :56:01.being taken very quickly and people treated unfairly. Is the eight bit
:56:02. > :56:08.of pushing of the job centre to sanction people who should not be?
:56:09. > :56:12.That is pushing for the right thing to be done. If people are clicking
:56:13. > :56:23.money not trying to work, the taxpayer fits the bill for that. But
:56:24. > :56:26.to these people sound like there? There are situations where the
:56:27. > :56:32.system is unfair. I will take these cases up and we get the results. But
:56:33. > :56:37.of a coincidence that this figure has suddenly gone up so much? It is
:56:38. > :56:45.not a coincidence that the government is trying to crack down
:56:46. > :56:52.on abuses of the system. Taxpayers do not have very much themselves.
:56:53. > :56:55.They want the money to be going to people who are out of work and
:56:56. > :56:59.genuinely looking for work. What about the Child who did not eat
:57:00. > :57:05.because their parent maybe did something wrong. Should they be
:57:06. > :57:09.suffering because of what the appeal in bed? No child should be suffering
:57:10. > :57:17.in the system and in the circumstances. If there are real
:57:18. > :57:22.problems, the God who a food bank can also get financial advice. What
:57:23. > :57:30.we cannot have is people 's children being used as a means to excuse them
:57:31. > :57:35.making no attempt to work. This system is breaking down. We had a
:57:36. > :57:41.child who came to us who went to the job centre, tried to get onto a job
:57:42. > :57:48.search, could not get on the internet because it was not working
:57:49. > :57:53.and then got sanctioned. It is not a reason not to have a system which
:57:54. > :57:59.protects the taxpayer. The problem for Labour is that if you protest
:58:00. > :58:05.over time, it looks as if you are on the side of the benefit claimant,
:58:06. > :58:16.not the taxpayer? This has been very restricted. We have the futures jobs
:58:17. > :58:21.fund and new ideas, but. But voters see you protesting every benefit
:58:22. > :58:30.change, every sanction. That is not true. We have been frustrated
:58:31. > :58:35.because often the most vulnerable people suffer. We need a system that
:58:36. > :58:40.sees people back into work. We need local authorities involved, instead
:58:41. > :58:46.of huge organisations which have not done jobs corporately. One of the
:58:47. > :58:53.MPs in the North confessed to being a passionate take that fans this
:58:54. > :59:00.week. She said she shared her daughter 's musical tastes. It is
:59:01. > :59:10.all part of her battle against ticket touting. Here is the news in
:59:11. > :59:18.60 seconds. Kane fell in many parts of the country, but was up in
:59:19. > :59:26.Northumbria. Teeside could have new drilling for shield gas. There has
:59:27. > :59:33.been a call for action to tackle ticket touts. This happens week in
:59:34. > :59:43.week out. This happens in Peter, comedy, sport up and down the
:59:44. > :59:51.country. It is not just about large cities, but these things affect all
:59:52. > :59:55.over the country. There is to be a further ?50 million worth of cuts at
:59:56. > :00:00.Sunderland Council. There are plans to set up a combined authority
:00:01. > :00:06.looking at jobs and transport. 4,000 people have signed a petition is to
:00:07. > :00:13.further call plan should have an elected beer.
:00:14. > :00:26.That is it from others. You can keep up`to`date in a variety of ways. All
:00:27. > :00:27.the details online. Next week, we report from Whitehaven.
:00:28. > :00:42.constituency, very pleased. Andrew, back to you.
:00:43. > :00:45.UKIP leader Nigel Farage is never far away from controversy, but this
:00:46. > :00:48.week he's been outdoing himself He was hit over the head with a placard
:00:49. > :00:51.by a protester in Kent, provoked outrage by saying women with
:00:52. > :00:58.children are worth less to city firms, and said the ban on owning
:00:59. > :01:01.handguns was 'crackers'. He also seemed less than sure of his party's
:01:02. > :01:03.own policies when I interviewed him on the Daily Politics. And
:01:04. > :01:07.own policies when I interviewed him that got everyone talking was the
:01:08. > :01:12.suggestion by a UKIP councillor that flooding is linked to gay marriage.
:01:13. > :01:19.We'll talk about all of that in a moment, but first, over to Nigel
:01:20. > :01:23.with the weather. Weather for all areas of the British Isles but
:01:24. > :01:29.definitely not "Bongo Bongo Land." You may have heard about a storm in
:01:30. > :01:35.a tea cup developed when you kip councillor in Oxfordshire blamed the
:01:36. > :01:40.floods on the gay marriage Bill The old party is focusing on the view of
:01:41. > :01:47.UKIP members like him, even though he had said a sell yuj of things
:01:48. > :01:54.before when a Tory councillor. How quickly things change depending on
:01:55. > :02:02.when the blouse. There are occasional barmy views by people of
:02:03. > :02:05.all persuasions. In Whitby a Labour councillor claimed of fathered a
:02:06. > :02:17.child with an extra terrorist ral, and said his real mother was a
:02:18. > :02:23.foot green alien. And in Wales a councillor
:02:24. > :02:31.thinking about heading off for the slopes, there were flurries of
:02:32. > :02:36.embarrassment for the Tories after Aidan Burly organised a Nazi skiing
:02:37. > :02:43.party in a resort. Anyone heading to Brussels, perhaps
:02:44. > :02:47.on the gravy train, watch out for hot air.
:02:48. > :02:55.In Britain temperatures are rising ahead of the European elections in
:02:56. > :02:59.May. It could get stormy, so advise light aircraft. Watch out for
:03:00. > :03:04.outbreaks of common sense, and no chance of cyclonic fruit cakes. Back
:03:05. > :03:09.to you, Andrew, with the rest of the Sunday Politics.
:03:10. > :03:14.Nick, if it was any other party that had bon through the past week it
:03:15. > :03:19.would be in meltdown. And maybe it is harming UKIP and maybe it isn't.
:03:20. > :03:25.What do you think? That just shows, that great weather forecast, Prince
:03:26. > :03:30.Charles now has a rival to be an excellent weather forecaster, as
:03:31. > :03:35.does the Duchess of Cornwall. It shows why Nigel Farage is the fefr
:03:36. > :03:39.candidate to the European elections. Our invitation to the British people
:03:40. > :03:43.to kick the establishment. The establishment have spent five years
:03:44. > :03:47.that the European Parliament is a waste of time, so who are you going
:03:48. > :03:54.to vote for? A Nigel Farage type of person. What was important about
:03:55. > :03:57.your eadviceration of Nigel Farage on Daily Politics is that when it
:03:58. > :04:01.came to the substance, they flounder. But the point about that
:04:02. > :04:06.party is they may have the thinnest set of policies, but people know
:04:07. > :04:14.what they stand for more than any other parties - get out of Europe, a
:04:15. > :04:19.grammar school in every town. If any other leading politician called for
:04:20. > :04:22.an end to the ban on handguns, at a time when we've seen these appalling
:04:23. > :04:27.gun deaths in the United States now almost one every week in some
:04:28. > :04:37.terrible siege in a school. It would be a crisis. It seems to wash off
:04:38. > :04:41.him. He's got congenital foot-and-mouthitis. Straight into
:04:42. > :04:47.another wild nothing to do with why people might vote UKIP. I don't
:04:48. > :04:52.think people are desperate to have handgun licences back in this
:04:53. > :04:58.country. It is such an unusual phenomenon, UKIP, that if this was a
:04:59. > :05:03.Tory or a Labour or a Lib Dem saying it, we've seen the damage done to
:05:04. > :05:08.the Lib Dems on a much more serious manner, we would say this is
:05:09. > :05:13.terminal. But maybe it adds to this image that we are not like the other
:05:14. > :05:19.parties. I think that is it. We keep waiting for these scandals and
:05:20. > :05:25.embarrassments to do damage to UKIP's poll ratings, but it's not
:05:26. > :05:29.working. It is ultimately because if you are an antiestablishment party,
:05:30. > :05:34.if you are an anti-system party the rules of the game which apply to the
:05:35. > :05:40.establishment parties don't apply to you. And the more ramshackle and
:05:41. > :05:46.embarrassing you are, the more authentic you seem. It what be take
:05:47. > :05:51.something for them not to finish second in May. Do they spend the
:05:52. > :05:55.following 12 months sinking in the poll snoos And George Osborne's
:05:56. > :05:58.strategy is fame everything as Labour versus the Conservatives The
:05:59. > :06:04.electorate will have their fun in May. Maybe the Tories will be beat
:06:05. > :06:09.into third place but in thejection is that -- but in the general
:06:10. > :06:17.election it is Labour versus the Tories. The Conservative Party will
:06:18. > :06:22.run around, 46 letters to Graham Brady, a leadership contest. That
:06:23. > :06:26.sort of scenario. UKIP, if it rules well in the European elections,
:06:27. > :06:33.could cause big trouble for Mr Cameron and Mr Clegg couldn't it?
:06:34. > :06:37.The big point about this, David Cameron said this is not a political
:06:38. > :06:43.party but a pressure group. This is the way to look at UKIP, and the way
:06:44. > :06:49.it is used by people in the right of the party, who say we have to do
:06:50. > :06:56.this. I like the policy of painting the trains in their old liveries. It
:06:57. > :07:07.would be like my old train set. I like the bigger passports.
:07:08. > :07:16.Pre-GNER... And London and Midland. I used to be a train spotter.
:07:17. > :07:21.Pre-GNER... And London and Midland. phone. Good to know you are watching
:07:22. > :07:25.but pity you are not here. He wanted to clarify he had constituency
:07:26. > :07:30.commitments to prevent him coming on the show to talk about becoming
:07:31. > :07:33.leader of the party, but he didn't dispute anything we said on the
:07:34. > :07:36.show. Yesterday, Ed Balls said that
:07:37. > :07:39.housing investment will be a central priority for the next Labour
:07:40. > :07:42.Government. It's a big issue, as the lack of new homes pushes up the the
:07:43. > :07:45.price of owning or renting. Well, tomorrow the Tories will announce
:07:46. > :07:52.what they say is the most ambitious programme of affordable
:07:53. > :07:55.housebuilding for 20 years. The Government sees housing as a really
:07:56. > :08:03.important part of the economy. That's why we are announcing a 23
:08:04. > :08:07.billion package for 165,000 new affordable homes. So individual
:08:08. > :08:11.builders, councils, housing associations can bid for that money.
:08:12. > :08:16.Phase one, which we are halfway through at the moment, we've built
:08:17. > :08:24.170,000 houses. 99,000 already coming out of the ground, so we ve
:08:25. > :08:29.made real progress on that. So, 165,000 new, affordable homes. It is
:08:30. > :08:33.a lot. Let me add three more words. Over three years. It is not such a
:08:34. > :08:37.lot. It is not, and Labour's commitment is 200,000 homes a year
:08:38. > :08:42.and even that isn't enough. The problem here is that the vest
:08:43. > :08:46.interest is with people who already have homes. They have a vote in the
:08:47. > :08:50.system through the planning regulations.
:08:51. > :08:51.system through the planning gap in the hedge through Richmond
:08:52. > :08:55.Park through which you gap in the hedge through Richmond
:08:56. > :08:59.able to see St Paul's Cathedral That's why you cannot build homes
:09:00. > :09:07.where you want them. I don't think we want to build homes over Richmond
:09:08. > :09:12.Park. He wasn't saying that. That's dies an Tyne -- that's Byzantine.
:09:13. > :09:16.You've got to deal with supply, which is why Labour is talking about
:09:17. > :09:23.200,000 a year, and what George Osborne has done with supply is
:09:24. > :09:26.helping with demand. We know the Help to Buy Scheme is pretty
:09:27. > :09:33.dangerous, and Mark Carney is keen to put the break on that. If you are
:09:34. > :09:38.to deal with supply, you have to do radical things. Chris Huhne talked
:09:39. > :09:42.about on brownfield sites you can tax people who are holding the land
:09:43. > :09:46.as if the development has taken place. Then if you are really going
:09:47. > :09:50.to deal with it you have to talk about the greenfield sites, and you
:09:51. > :09:55.have to deal with the garden cities argument, which is too much for the
:09:56. > :09:58.Tories. All the parties seem to agree building new houses is a
:09:59. > :10:03.political winner. I hope that they are right. I'm not sure they are.
:10:04. > :10:07.The housing market is the example of what economists call the insider
:10:08. > :10:13.in-outsider problem. People who are already homeowners have no rational
:10:14. > :10:18.incentive to vote for more housing stock. Even if you leave aside the
:10:19. > :10:21.Conservative arable objections, if you are a
:10:22. > :10:22.Conservative arable objections, if interest to stick with the planning
:10:23. > :10:28.promise that we have. So then stuck between a rock and a hard
:10:29. > :10:34.place. Not only are we growing at the moment but our population is
:10:35. > :10:38.growing. I've seen projects that in quite quickly we will overtake
:10:39. > :10:41.Germany and become the largest populated country in Europe. If
:10:42. > :10:47.that's the case we've got to build homes. We have. If you look at Tower
:10:48. > :10:52.Hamlets in London, the population is r ging higher than the number of
:10:53. > :10:57.dwelling. Classically the theory's been young people are most affected
:10:58. > :11:03.by this and they don't vote much. But when their parents have young
:11:04. > :11:08.Johnny stuck at home at 37, that's an electoral issue. That's why the
:11:09. > :11:12.garden cities project is interesting, because they finance
:11:13. > :11:17.themselves. You zone it for development, it is worth ?2 million
:11:18. > :11:22.an acre and then you can build on it. But who is going to want the
:11:23. > :11:29.greenfield sites gone. And how quickly can we build garden cities
:11:30. > :11:34.today? Some were started before the Town and Country Planning Act. I've
:11:35. > :11:38.read stats about the way Chinese and Japanese are building houses and
:11:39. > :11:42.they were slower than that. Here's a thought, sticking on the housing
:11:43. > :11:46.theme. Ed Miliband came up with the energy freeze, a populist
:11:47. > :11:52.interventionist move. Then the use it or lose it to land developers.
:11:53. > :11:53.Then breaking up the banks. Now the 50p tax rate.
:11:54. > :11:59.Then breaking up the banks. Now the on Labour coming up for rent
:12:00. > :12:04.controls? That's already a big split. They are split already on it.
:12:05. > :12:09.They have. In London it is a popular policy. It might not play well in
:12:10. > :12:12.the rest of the country. I would say 50-50 on that. I think Labour
:12:13. > :12:16.supporting rent controls like the Tories having a go at welfare. The
:12:17. > :12:20.policy may be individually popular but it sends an impression about the
:12:21. > :12:25.party which might be less attract active. It confirms underlying
:12:26. > :12:29.suspicions that vote these guys into power and suddenly they are
:12:30. > :12:34.tampering with the private economy. The memories of the '70s when
:12:35. > :12:37.Governments tried and failed to do that. It is riskier than a
:12:38. > :12:42.superficial reading of the polls would suggest. One to watch? I think
:12:43. > :12:47.they are looking at it. That was the key message of the Ed Balls speech
:12:48. > :12:52.on housing, is looking at supply and how you get to that 200,000 figure a
:12:53. > :12:56.year, which is substantially more than what Kris Hopkins is talking
:12:57. > :13:01.about. What we didn't get to talk about, remember we had Michael
:13:02. > :13:05.Wilshaw on, the Chief Inspector of Schools. We all consumed was Mr
:13:06. > :13:08.Gove's man, the Education Secretary's man. Now according to
:13:09. > :13:13.the Sunday Times he is spitting blood about the way Mr Gove and his
:13:14. > :13:17.office are speaking about him behind the scenes. We've checked the quotes
:13:18. > :13:21.and he stands by them, so I think we'll have to have the head of
:13:22. > :13:25.Ofsted back on the programme. If you are watching, we're here. All that
:13:26. > :13:28.to the Lib Dems who didn't come on today.
:13:29. > :13:29.to the Lib Dems who didn't come on That's all for today. Thanks to all
:13:30. > :13:34.my guests. The Daily Politics is That's all for today. Thanks to all
:13:35. > :13:35.and I'll be here again next week. Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the
:13:36. > :14:13.Sunday Politics. Britain, with 120,000 soldiers
:14:14. > :14:22.is now at war with Germany This would be the first
:14:23. > :14:30.truly modern war.