:00:36. > :00:41.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:42. > :00:45.Can Ed Davey keep the lights on Can he ever deliver cheaper power? Or
:00:46. > :00:49.the investment our energy market badly needs? We'll be asking the
:00:50. > :00:52.Energy Secretary. Why has the anti-independence Better
:00:53. > :00:57.Together campaign suddenly got the jitters? We'll be quizzing Scottish
:00:58. > :01:00.Secretary Alistair Carmichael. And whatever happened to the BNP?
:01:01. > :01:10.in the north`east and Cumbrha we as They could be
:01:11. > :01:13.in the north`east and Cumbrha we as the Scottish Nationalists if
:01:14. > :01:14.independence as a threat or an opportunity to
:01:15. > :01:18.which runs the capital's Fire Service. The Mayor has a political
:01:19. > :01:24.move designed to silence his critics.
:01:25. > :01:28.And with me, as always, the most useless political panel in the
:01:29. > :01:33.business, who we're contractually obliged to insult on a weekly basis.
:01:34. > :01:37.But not today, because they are our chosen ones. They are the brightest
:01:38. > :01:45.and the best, we've even hired a plane to prove it: Helen Lewis,
:01:46. > :01:51.Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:52. > :01:54.Right, left and centre of the Westminster Establishment have been
:01:55. > :01:57.unanimous in saying there would be no chance of monetary union with the
:01:58. > :02:02.rest of the UK for an independent Scotland. Then an unnamed minister
:02:03. > :02:07.spoke to our Nick saying that wasn't necessarily so, and that made the
:02:08. > :02:11.Guardian's front page. The SNP were delighted and the anti-independence
:02:12. > :02:15.campaign rushed to limit the damage. The faux pas has come at a time when
:02:16. > :02:20.the Better Together side was already beginning to worry that things were
:02:21. > :02:23.going the Nationalists' way. Let's speak to a leading light in that
:02:24. > :02:25.campaign, Scottish Secretary Alistair Carmichael, who's in
:02:26. > :02:36.Aberdeen at the Scottish Liberal Democrat spring conference.
:02:37. > :02:42.Alistair Carmichael, why is there a sense of crisis now engulfing the no
:02:43. > :02:50.campaign? I think that is something of an overstatement. What you have
:02:51. > :02:55.got is, I am getting my own voice played back in my ear. What you have
:02:56. > :03:00.got here is one story from an unnamed source, a minister who we
:03:01. > :03:05.are told, we do not know for certain, who has speculated on the
:03:06. > :03:09.possibility of a currency union actually happening. I do not think
:03:10. > :03:12.that is helpful but it is not any big deal. You have to measure it
:03:13. > :03:16.against what we have got publicly named on the record. We have got a
:03:17. > :03:20.detailed intervention of the Governor of the Bank of England
:03:21. > :03:24.Mark Carney, outlining all the reasons why a currency union would
:03:25. > :03:28.not be a good idea. And then you have got independent advice from the
:03:29. > :03:32.permanent Secretary of the Treasury himself saying actually, this is
:03:33. > :03:36.such a bad idea, that I would never advise a chancellor to go ahead with
:03:37. > :03:42.it. You set one against the other and you see that pretty much the
:03:43. > :03:46.force of argument is very much against those of us who want to
:03:47. > :03:50.remain in the United Kingdom. All the minister was saying is come the
:03:51. > :03:54.day, if Westminster is negotiating with a new independent Scotland a
:03:55. > :03:58.deal is to be done, Faslane where the nuclear deterrent is, there is
:03:59. > :04:04.nowhere else in the UK to put that is, certainly not for the next 0
:04:05. > :04:07.years, a deal would be done, the nuclear weapons would stay in
:04:08. > :04:11.Faslane and Scotland would get a monetary union with the rest of the
:04:12. > :04:18.UK. That is perfectly plausible isn't it? No, I'm sorry, it is
:04:19. > :04:21.simply not plausible. The economy is more important than anything else.
:04:22. > :04:25.What you have had here is very clear advice from the treasury officials
:04:26. > :04:29.saying it is not in the economic best interests of the people of
:04:30. > :04:36.England Wales, Northern Ireland any more than it is in the interests of
:04:37. > :04:43.people in Scotland. Where do you put the nukes? The outcome will not
:04:44. > :04:50.change. Where do you put the nukes when the Nationalists kick you out?
:04:51. > :04:54.I do not believe that will be a problem because I do not believe
:04:55. > :04:58.Scotland will vote for independence. But you might be asking the Scottish
:04:59. > :05:02.Nationalists, who are apparently promoting this, are they then not
:05:03. > :05:06.sincere when they say they want to remove nuclear weapons from
:05:07. > :05:11.Scotland? It seems to be a curious mixed message. As you know, I have
:05:12. > :05:15.not got the Nationalists, I have got you, so let me ask you the
:05:16. > :05:27.questions. You are widely seen as running a campaign which is too
:05:28. > :05:29.negative. The Nationalists are narrowing the gap in the poll found
:05:30. > :05:33.you are squabbling among yourselves. This campaign is going pear shaped,
:05:34. > :05:37.isn't it? No, let's deal with the polls. All the polls show that the
:05:38. > :05:43.people of Scotland want to stay as part of the United Kingdom. Yes
:05:44. > :05:48.there were a couple of polls last week that said the gap was narrowing
:05:49. > :05:55.a little. The most recent poll of all, the poll on Wednesday which
:05:56. > :05:59.actually polled people's voting intentions on the question come
:06:00. > :06:02.September showed that only 28% of people in Scotland were prepared to
:06:03. > :06:07.say they were voting yes, as opposed to the 42% who were on our side of
:06:08. > :06:13.the argument saying they wish to remain part of the UK. That poll
:06:14. > :06:18.said women were skewing towards a yes vote and it showed that the
:06:19. > :06:23.don't knows were beginning to skew towards a yes vote. That is why you
:06:24. > :06:27.yourself wrote this morning that if your campaign does not get its act
:06:28. > :06:33.together, you would be sleepwalking into a split to quote yourself. No,
:06:34. > :06:37.to quote myself I said it was not impossible that the Nationalists
:06:38. > :06:41.could win that. That is absolutely the case. The biggest danger for the
:06:42. > :06:45.United Kingdom camp in this whole argument is people will look at the
:06:46. > :06:49.polls. They show us with a healthy lead consistently. As a consequence,
:06:50. > :07:05.they think this will not happen It can happen. I have got to tell
:07:06. > :07:07.everybody that it could, not least because the Nationalists have an
:07:08. > :07:10.enormous advantage in terms of the amount of money they have at their
:07:11. > :07:12.disposal to buy momentum. They will be advertising in cinemas, in
:07:13. > :07:17.football matches and on social media. We have got to realise what
:07:18. > :07:21.is coming and as a consequence, we have got to get our arguments in
:07:22. > :07:28.place and our campaign as sharp as theirs. Thank you for joining us.
:07:29. > :07:35.Nick, this unnamed minister who gave you the story, did he or she know
:07:36. > :07:41.what they were doing? I do not think they were sitting there wanting to
:07:42. > :07:46.blast this out there, because the agreed government position was there
:07:47. > :07:53.will not be a currency union, if there is a vote for independence.
:07:54. > :07:56.But what I was managing to get hold of whether thoughts that are in the
:07:57. > :08:00.deeper recesses of people's minds, when they are looking at the polls
:08:01. > :08:03.which have been narrowing, or there was Alistair Carmichael quite
:08:04. > :08:09.rightly says, the pro-UK vote is still ahead. People are looking down
:08:10. > :08:12.the line, what would happen after the 18th of September this year not
:08:13. > :08:16.just the next day but the next year, in those very lengthy
:08:17. > :08:21.negotiations that would take place, when there would be a lot of moving
:08:22. > :08:25.places on the table. You talked about Faslane, what would happen
:08:26. > :08:29.then and that is what I managed to get hold of, that there are thoughts
:08:30. > :08:33.about all those pieces that would be on the table. It is not surprising
:08:34. > :08:37.that some in Westminster think that. Let's take the Shadow
:08:38. > :08:43.Chancellor Danny Alexander at his word, they do not want a monetary
:08:44. > :08:47.union. But if they are faced with giving the Scots a monetary union in
:08:48. > :08:50.a post-independent Scotland, or having to remove the nuclear
:08:51. > :08:56.submarines from Faslane, where they have nowhere else to put them,
:08:57. > :09:00.probably except North America, there is a deal to be done. I think
:09:01. > :09:04.whatever minister gave Nick his story is probably onto something. If
:09:05. > :09:09.the Scots vote for independence of course a deal will be done about the
:09:10. > :09:12.currency because it is not in London's interests to have a
:09:13. > :09:16.rancorous relationship with Edinburgh. Even if the deal is not
:09:17. > :09:27.done, how does one country stop another country using its. That is
:09:28. > :09:30.different. All London can really do is prevent Scottish intervention on
:09:31. > :09:34.the monetary policy committee. The interest rate would be set without
:09:35. > :09:38.any regard to the Scottish interest. Even that is only a fatal problem if
:09:39. > :09:43.the Scottish economy becomes so out of sync with the UK economy. Except
:09:44. > :09:49.it is a problem for Scotland's financial system because if you go
:09:50. > :09:52.down that route there is no means of injecting liquidity into the
:09:53. > :09:56.financial system in the financial crisis. That is why they would
:09:57. > :09:59.rather have a monetary union. Is it not remarkable to hear the Secretary
:10:00. > :10:03.of State for Scotland here that the Nationalists are spending too much
:10:04. > :10:06.money, when he represents a campaign which brings together all the major
:10:07. > :10:11.parties in the UK and all the resources of the UK and he is
:10:12. > :10:14.bleating about the Nationalists having more to spend? I did think
:10:15. > :10:19.that was a funny line and it was in the Observer. It lays into Alex
:10:20. > :10:23.Salmond's plucky upstart idea that he's taking on this big
:10:24. > :10:30.establishment. I thought it was a bizarre open goal, I am losing my
:10:31. > :10:37.football metaphors, forgive me. The polls are so in favour of a no
:10:38. > :10:42.vote. But the trend has been going their way. We have six months left
:10:43. > :10:46.which is not enough to close the gap. They always tell you Alex
:10:47. > :10:53.Salmond is a strong finisher. The plucky upstarts have this funding
:10:54. > :10:56.from a millionaire. The Better Together campaign are being
:10:57. > :11:00.incredibly cautious about where they get their money from. They do not
:11:01. > :11:03.want to go to the City of London Police say, give us a couple of
:11:04. > :11:07.million. Being Energy Secretary used to be a
:11:08. > :11:10.bit of a dawdle, especially when North Sea oil was flowing. Now it's
:11:11. > :11:18.very much a hot potato as Ed Davey has been finding out the hard way.
:11:19. > :11:26.High household energy bills have been top of his inbox. The big six
:11:27. > :11:33.energy companies account for 95 of the market. Off Johnson -- Ofgem
:11:34. > :11:38.said there had been possible tacit coordination in the timing of price
:11:39. > :11:40.rises and ordered an investigation by the competition and markets
:11:41. > :11:45.authorities which will look at whether the big six should be broken
:11:46. > :11:49.up. Where does that leave investment? The boss of Centrica
:11:50. > :11:53.made the point that you would not spend money building an extension if
:11:54. > :11:58.you knew in two years time your home might be bulldozed. The spare
:11:59. > :12:02.margin, that is what is left in the generating system to cope with a
:12:03. > :12:08.surge in demand on a cold winter's night, is due to drop to
:12:09. > :12:13.historically low levels in 2016 according to Ofgem. Normally at
:12:14. > :12:18.around 15%, capacity could drop to 2% after the next election and that
:12:19. > :12:22.could lead to a surge in the sale of candles. Now where is that light
:12:23. > :12:28.switch? Energy Secretary Ed Davey, joins me
:12:29. > :12:36.now. Oh, we have found the light switch! The gap between a peak
:12:37. > :12:41.winter demand and generating capacity could possibly reach 2
:12:42. > :12:46.next winter or the winter after We will keep the lights on, that is for
:12:47. > :12:50.clear. When we came to power, energy investment had been relatively low.
:12:51. > :12:54.The Labour Party had failed to deal with the energy deficit. From day
:12:55. > :13:02.one we have been pushing up massively. Investment has been
:13:03. > :13:06.billion a year. Last year was a record. Spare capacity is now
:13:07. > :13:11.heading to 2%. Why are you allowing it to get that no? Because we have
:13:12. > :13:16.been increasing investment massively, last was a record level,
:13:17. > :13:19.we will be able to keep the lights on. Some of the figures you are
:13:20. > :13:24.showing suggests we are not doing anything. We have not only done
:13:25. > :13:30.enough in our last three years, we have put in measures to stimulate
:13:31. > :13:33.huge amounts of extra investment. We have the healthiest pipeline
:13:34. > :13:37.investment in our history. We will come onto investment in a minute.
:13:38. > :13:42.None of that change is the fact that we will be close to 2% next winter
:13:43. > :13:50.or the winter after that. We have one major power station shut down,
:13:51. > :13:57.or a cold winter away from having major problems with energy supply.
:13:58. > :14:01.It is still 2%. Let me explain. The figures assume we are not doing
:14:02. > :14:06.anything but we are doing something. Look at the National Grid. They are
:14:07. > :14:10.able to bring in energy from interconnector is because we are
:14:11. > :14:16.connected up to Europe. They are able to create a reserve so if we
:14:17. > :14:22.get to problems, they will have a mothballed plant they can bring on.
:14:23. > :14:28.You have not agreed with anybody on that. The decision was taken last
:14:29. > :14:33.July. But no supplier has agreed to under mothball its plant. We would
:14:34. > :14:40.not expect them to do that yet. Our plan is in place. On time, on
:14:41. > :14:44.schedule, as we already thought it would be. But you have not got a
:14:45. > :14:51.single agreement with a power supply who has mothballed plant to on the
:14:52. > :14:57.ball it. We did not expect to. Our plan is in me National Grid will do
:14:58. > :15:01.an election to allow those plants to come on. There is a huge amount of
:15:02. > :15:04.interest. There are gigawatts of power that can come in to come on.
:15:05. > :15:08.There is a huge amount of interest. There are gigawatts of power that
:15:09. > :15:12.can come into that auction and we are not other measures we can take
:15:13. > :15:17.and that is just in the short term. We have a plan for the medium-term.
:15:18. > :15:33.We will be running the first auction for new capacity. The final decision
:15:34. > :15:35.will be taken and we have learned lessons from what they do in North
:15:36. > :15:38.America and other European countries so we can stay minute mothballed
:15:39. > :15:47.plants and new plants to be built. I am absolutely clear there is not a
:15:48. > :15:54.problem. You only build 9000 megawatts of new capacity from
:15:55. > :15:57.2011-13. You have closed almost 22,000 megawatts. Why would you be
:15:58. > :16:02.so cavalier with a nation's power supply? The last Government was
:16:03. > :16:05.cavalier because we knew those figures are happening because we've
:16:06. > :16:09.known for a long time a lot of power plants were coming to the end of
:16:10. > :16:12.their life, coal power plants, nuclear power plants, and we had to
:16:13. > :16:20.increase the rate of investment but we... That shows clearly you are
:16:21. > :16:23.closing twice as much, you have to date, closed twice as much as you
:16:24. > :16:27.have opened, hence the lack of spare capacity. We knew a lot of them are
:16:28. > :16:31.coming back for the last Labour Government knew. We have increased
:16:32. > :16:34.the new so that's increasing significantly, far faster than under
:16:35. > :16:39.the last Government but also remember, you were very wrong at the
:16:40. > :16:46.beginning of your clip, margins at 15% are very own usual. They are
:16:47. > :16:51.historically high. The average margin was 25%. That was wasting a
:16:52. > :16:56.huge amount of money. But since privatisation, we've had margins
:16:57. > :17:02.between 5% and 10%. Normally, high margins historically, which is
:17:03. > :17:06.costly. Now we will have historically low margins. People
:17:07. > :17:10.have to pay for that, so we make sure the lights stay on, we have a
:17:11. > :17:14.short-term policy I have described to you, and medium-term policy and a
:17:15. > :17:15.long-term policy. The long-term policy comes huge investment between
:17:16. > :17:39.nuclear and optional, policy comes huge investment between
:17:40. > :17:47.on. Ofgem, Independent, says the chance of blackouts by 2016 has
:17:48. > :17:55.increased fourfold under your watch. What they say, if you read the
:17:56. > :17:59.report, if we did nothing, they would be problems. But we have been
:18:00. > :18:04.working with Ofgem. We have been working with National Grid, and we
:18:05. > :18:08.have agreed that there will be a reserve capacity which can come on
:18:09. > :18:14.if we get to the peak for the Best not just on the supply side but
:18:15. > :18:18.demand and into connectors. You talk about industry having to move to
:18:19. > :18:22.off-peak times. We say, they are prepared to that you paid for it,
:18:23. > :18:26.and it makes commercial sense for them, it's a sensible thing for the
:18:27. > :18:30.Wii will pay them to move to off-peak. You have huge diesel parks
:18:31. > :18:33.for the you talk as if that something new but it's been around
:18:34. > :18:39.for a long time for the 200 these contracts out there. We want to
:18:40. > :18:42.expand that. You have hundreds of diesel generators to click into
:18:43. > :18:50.haven't you? There's a whole range of generators. Diesel generation,
:18:51. > :18:55.dirty fuel. There's a of mothballed gas which can come. If you look at
:18:56. > :19:05.the increase of the independent generators, many companies, a range
:19:06. > :19:09.of power companies who are building a new power station and want to
:19:10. > :19:13.build new ones. This is a healthy situation. You say you made over 100
:19:14. > :19:17.billion new investment between now and the end of the decade to restore
:19:18. > :19:21.capacity and meet renewable targets. Now you have referred the
:19:22. > :19:26.Big Six to the competition commission, how much of that to
:19:27. > :19:31.expect to come from them? We will see what the market delivers. We
:19:32. > :19:36.have always expected independent generators to do a lot more than is
:19:37. > :19:41.happening in the past. How much from the Big Six? It's not for me to say
:19:42. > :19:45.it's going to be best from that company. The real interest is we
:19:46. > :19:50.have huge amounts of companies wanting to invest. If you look at
:19:51. > :19:54.independent analysis, they say Britain is one of the best places to
:19:55. > :19:57.invest in energy in the world. We are the worldly do in offshore
:19:58. > :20:00.wind, one of the best for renewables, one of the only
:20:01. > :20:05.countries getting nuclear power stations. Rather than the bleaker
:20:06. > :20:10.picture you're painting, the reverse is the case. We are seeing an
:20:11. > :20:15.investment renaissance. You say that. Let me give you some facts.
:20:16. > :20:20.Under this Government, only one gas plant has been under construction,
:20:21. > :20:23.only one started under your watch for the others were done under
:20:24. > :20:28.Labour. You have none in the pipeline. The Big Six has pulled
:20:29. > :20:31.back from further investment including new offshore wind
:20:32. > :20:36.investment and none of what you re talking about will come before 020
:20:37. > :20:40.anyway. That's simply not true. The balance reserves I've talked about,
:20:41. > :20:44.the reserve planned: Making sure the mothballed plant could come on, I
:20:45. > :20:51.capacity market incentivising new power, will happen way before 2 20,
:20:52. > :20:54.so that's not true. But doesn't answer the extra capacity. You have
:20:55. > :20:59.no answer between now and the end of this decade. We have three answers.
:21:00. > :21:04.Let me repeat them for you. I said permanent, not the short-term ones
:21:05. > :21:08.you are putting in place to try to do with spare capacity. We have a
:21:09. > :21:13.short-term plan, of course, that's very sensible. Medium-term plan
:21:14. > :21:16.auctioning for new power stations. That can lead to both mothballed
:21:17. > :21:22.plant and when you plant, permanent plant being built, and the long term
:21:23. > :21:26.plan, to stimulator long-term investment, some of which will be
:21:27. > :21:30.built and come online way before the end of the decade. I'm afraid, it's
:21:31. > :21:35.a far rosier picture than your painting. It's also far more
:21:36. > :21:38.expensive, too. Let's look at how you are replacing relatively cheap
:21:39. > :21:44.energy with much more expensive sources of energy. Wholesale prices
:21:45. > :21:51.is ?50 per megawatt. You have done a deal with EDF, nuclear, ?92 50. You
:21:52. > :22:02.have indexed it for 30 years at 2012 prices.
:22:03. > :22:11.All of that puts up our bills. First of all, the support of the low
:22:12. > :22:16.Carbon is just 4% on bills. What has been driving peoples bills over the
:22:17. > :22:20.last decade has been wholesale gas prices. No one knows what guys
:22:21. > :22:24.prices are going to be in the future -- gas prices. When you look at the
:22:25. > :22:28.Ukraine and other market indicators, many people are worried that by the
:22:29. > :22:32.time nuclear power stations come online for example, the price of gas
:22:33. > :22:35.could be significantly higher. You have indexed linked that for them by
:22:36. > :22:41.the time you get any power from this, it'll be up to ?125 per
:22:42. > :22:50.megawatt hour. The price of gas been going up far higher. Not recently.
:22:51. > :22:53.Despite Iran, Ukraine, Libya, not recently. The long-term forecast,
:22:54. > :22:57.Andrew, it's going to go higher but more importantly than that, this is
:22:58. > :23:01.an area we could disagree on but it's very important that power
:23:02. > :23:06.plants pay the cost of pollution. In those prizes, all of those prices
:23:07. > :23:11.except the wholesale out a steep price, you have those power stations
:23:12. > :23:14.paying the cost of air pollution. If gas and coal where paying the proper
:23:15. > :23:20.carbon price, you would see nuclear and renewables as competitive. It's
:23:21. > :23:24.very important that we ensure that power plants pay the cost of the
:23:25. > :23:29.pollution. When you were last on this programme to talk about this in
:23:30. > :23:34.May 2012, you said that the price of offshore wind was coming down fast.
:23:35. > :23:39.You told me it would be down by 30% in the next few years. That figure
:23:40. > :23:45.is 155, and for the deeper stuff, it's going to be ?165. That's the
:23:46. > :23:52.first year of a limit control framework which had it coming down.
:23:53. > :23:58.If you talk to many companies, Siemens had invested with their
:23:59. > :24:04.partners, ?310 million with two new factories. They are talking about
:24:05. > :24:10.lower prices because what they are saying to me is that, rather than
:24:11. > :24:15.the 30% cost reductions I talked about, I was wrong, they are
:24:16. > :24:19.targeting 40%. You said prices would come down 30% in two years for that
:24:20. > :24:24.that was 2012 and they have gone higher. I absolutely did not say
:24:25. > :24:28.that. Your exact quote was 30% in the next few years. Your exact few
:24:29. > :24:33.years. You said two years, I sell a few years. I haven't changed a
:24:34. > :24:38.single moment that you said two years, I said a few years. That s
:24:39. > :24:43.what we are projecting. They will come down. You have to invest in
:24:44. > :24:46.technology. Let me give you this example. When people invest in
:24:47. > :24:55.mobile phones to start off with they were expensive, and they were
:24:56. > :25:00.clunky and the costs were going down for the one final question. You put
:25:01. > :25:04.the Big Six into investigation because they made a 5% return on
:25:05. > :25:10.investment and you're done a deal with EDF, nuclear power, which will
:25:11. > :25:14.guarantee them a return of 10% 15% every year for 30 years. Doesn't
:25:15. > :25:19.that underline the shambles of your energy policy? You have mixed up two
:25:20. > :25:23.separate things. The 5% Ofgem are talking about is on the supply
:25:24. > :25:28.retail side. The percentage you quoted for EDF is in the wholesale
:25:29. > :25:32.side of two different markets. It's the same return. It's not. You are
:25:33. > :25:38.comparing apples and pears, dangerous thing to do. You have to
:25:39. > :25:41.do have a high return but in the retail market, with a 5% stake,
:25:42. > :25:49.there is less risk, says a low return. Ed Davey, I'm sorry we
:25:50. > :25:54.haven't got more time. Thank you. Have me back. We will. Whatever
:25:55. > :25:58.happened to the BNP? The far right party looked as if it was on the
:25:59. > :26:02.verge of a major breakthrough not so long ago. Now it seems to be going
:26:03. > :26:04.nowhere. In a moment we'll be speaking to the party's press
:26:05. > :26:07.officer, Simon Derby. But first here's Giles. His report contains
:26:08. > :26:10.some flash photography. For a moment in 2009 Nick Griffin and the BNP had
:26:11. > :26:14.a spring in their step, smiling at their success of winning two seats
:26:15. > :26:17.in the European Parliament. They already were the second largest
:26:18. > :26:20.party in a London council and had a London Assembly seat. Despite
:26:21. > :26:32.concerns from mainstream parties their vote was up. Our vote
:26:33. > :26:35.increased up to 943,000. Savouring success was brief that morning as
:26:36. > :26:38.anti-far right protestors invaded and egged the press conference and
:26:39. > :26:43.forced the BNP MEPs into a hasty retreat. What is more significant is
:26:44. > :26:46.that, in the years since, that retreat has been matched internally,
:26:47. > :26:56.electorally and in the minds of those who had given them that vote.
:26:57. > :26:59.For a number of years they were performing better than the UK
:27:00. > :27:03.Independence Party and other smaller parties like the Greens and respect.
:27:04. > :27:05.The problem for the BNP if they didn't make any inroads into other
:27:06. > :27:10.groups, they didn't go into the middle class, the young, they didn't
:27:11. > :27:13.go into women and ethnic minorities for obvious reasons. So the party
:27:14. > :27:19.was quickly handicapped from the outset. Not that you would have
:27:20. > :27:22.known that at the outset. In 20 6 in Barking and Dagenham, the party won
:27:23. > :27:25.12 council seats against a back drop of discontent with the ruling Labour
:27:26. > :27:34.council and Government and picking up on immigration and housing
:27:35. > :27:37.concerns in the borough. It's because of all the different
:27:38. > :27:41.nationality people moving in the area, they are taking over
:27:42. > :27:47.everything. My Nan and grandad lived there all their lives. I thought I
:27:48. > :27:53.would vote for BNP. Hopefully, yeah, they will get elected over here
:27:54. > :27:57.When I came to Barking, Dagenham and Redbridge in 2006, the BNP with a
:27:58. > :28:02.second largest party in one of the local councils. You can even find
:28:03. > :28:05.non-white people who voted BNP. Now they have no counsellors, and even
:28:06. > :28:10.though can when you talk to people, you will find among the older white
:28:11. > :28:14.working-class population concerned that the BNP claim to represent
:28:15. > :28:21.everyone says they are nowhere. So what happened to that about? On
:28:22. > :28:26.behalf of all the people in Britain, we in Barking have not just beaten,
:28:27. > :28:30.that we have smashed the attempt of extremist outsiders. The local
:28:31. > :28:38.Labour MP was as clear in 2010 as she is now. I always knew if we
:28:39. > :28:41.could manage to ensure that wasn't a single BNP councillor left on the
:28:42. > :28:44.council and I won my seat, it would stop the process of disintegration.
:28:45. > :28:48.But what beat the BNP here in 2 10 was a mobilisation of the Labour
:28:49. > :28:52.vote. And today it is not hard to find the same discontent over the
:28:53. > :29:00.same issues. It's just finding a new political home. A couple of years
:29:01. > :29:04.ago, I used to vote Labour. Obviously, they haven't done nothing
:29:05. > :29:08.around here as much now, with jobs and unemployment, and housing and
:29:09. > :29:12.stuff like that about, basically, BNP ain't around here no more. Now
:29:13. > :29:17.it's more about UKIP and I believe that these UKIP are saying are true.
:29:18. > :29:21.If I thought BNP would make the difference, I would vote but is not
:29:22. > :29:26.in the people behind them. They all get bandaged with the same brush.
:29:27. > :29:30.I'm going to vote UKIP because BNP didn't get anywhere. What they say
:29:31. > :29:34.in UKIP, with a bit of luck, they will get somewhere. It's not racist
:29:35. > :29:39.but it's just that our kids haven't got jobs. Nick Griffin's dislike of
:29:40. > :29:42.UKIP is mutual but his once fellow MEP Andrew Brons who's now left the
:29:43. > :29:51.party issued a statement to this programme saying BNP failure is
:29:52. > :29:53.closer to home post 2010. It was after that election discontent arose
:29:54. > :30:10.amongst sections of the membership. Those members who left or were
:30:11. > :30:14.thrown out by Nick Griffin had already felt let down by his
:30:15. > :30:17.appearance on Question Time. It was a national platform for the BNP
:30:18. > :30:27.something they felt they had the right to through electoral success.
:30:28. > :30:33.This was no big breakthrough moment for Griffin, unlike it was for John
:30:34. > :30:37.Marina pen when he appeared on national television in France. He
:30:38. > :30:40.went on to mobilise a national force. Despite there being some
:30:41. > :30:44.voters tuned to their message, for the BNP, becoming such a force here
:30:45. > :30:52.has never looked quite so difficult. And Simon Derby from the BNP joins
:30:53. > :30:56.me now. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It was not long ago you
:30:57. > :31:02.had 55 councillors up and down the land, you now have two. You are on
:31:03. > :31:08.the brink of extinction. That is not true. I have watched the film. It is
:31:09. > :31:12.very negative as I would expect The party has faced a few problems. The
:31:13. > :31:19.main thing to bear in mind is that the issues, the problems the country
:31:20. > :31:24.faces have gone away. We won nearly a million votes in the European
:31:25. > :31:34.elections. We brought that mandate to the establishment and we were
:31:35. > :31:39.denied. Let's face it, we would -- were denied any opportunity to take
:31:40. > :31:44.place in the political apparatus. You have been destroyed by a pincer
:31:45. > :31:52.movement. UKIP has taken away or more respectable voters and the EDL
:31:53. > :31:58.is better at anti-Muslim protests and street thuggery. The EDL is not
:31:59. > :32:02.a political party. I take your point about UKIP. The power structure took
:32:03. > :32:08.a look at us and so we were a threat to power. We were not making this
:32:09. > :32:13.stuff up, we meant it and they have co-opted our message. This shameless
:32:14. > :32:16.promotion of UKIP, you have evenly had him presenting the weather on
:32:17. > :32:22.this programme. That is unbelievable. That was a joke.
:32:23. > :32:27.Across Europe, in France, your sister party the National front will
:32:28. > :32:32.probably do very well. You can see the rise of the far right across
:32:33. > :32:38.Western Europe so why are you in decline? We are not far right, I
:32:39. > :32:56.reject that label. How would you describe yourselves nationalists and
:32:57. > :33:01.Patriots. Why are you in decline and other similar parties to yours are
:33:02. > :33:05.on the rise? You mentioned Barking and it is very interesting because I
:33:06. > :33:10.was involved in that campaign. What Margaret Hodge and her Labour Party
:33:11. > :33:14.did, they replaced the white indigenous population in Barking and
:33:15. > :33:17.Dagenham with Africans, that is how they won that election. For that was
:33:18. > :33:23.true, you would be doing well elsewhere. You have now got a leader
:33:24. > :33:29.who is declared bankrupt and your party is heading for bankruptcy
:33:30. > :33:35.No, it is not. It is over. You would like that. What I would like is
:33:36. > :33:41.irrelevant. Your membership is in deep decline. All parties have highs
:33:42. > :33:46.and lows. In 2009 they said it is no way you will win any seats in the
:33:47. > :33:54.European election. We did. And then you lost them. Parties win and lose
:33:55. > :34:00.seats. The Lib Dems will be annihilated. You deny you are far
:34:01. > :34:11.right. People used to say the BNP were neo-Nazis. Then Nick Griffin
:34:12. > :34:16.appeared with Golden Dawn. They are not neo-Nazis, they are Nazis. It is
:34:17. > :34:23.part and parcel of being in politics. You have to appear with
:34:24. > :34:27.them? Of course we do, we have to speak to ordinary people. I am
:34:28. > :34:32.perfectly happy speaking to you at the BBC, the BBC have a terrible
:34:33. > :34:36.reputation but I am happy to be here. Mr Griffin has asked me, when
:34:37. > :34:43.will the BBC apologised for trying to put him in prison twice, merely
:34:44. > :34:50.for exposing a Muslim scandal. Why can't Nick Griffin appear on TV and
:34:51. > :34:56.self? He would not appear. He was in Syria. He literally flew out to
:34:57. > :35:02.Damascus and prevented a war. We decided we would not interfere in
:35:03. > :35:06.Syria. The BBC never covered that. Please do not make out we are just
:35:07. > :35:12.an ordinary political party you cover like everybody else. It is
:35:13. > :35:17.completely different. All the signs are, membership, performance at the
:35:18. > :35:22.polls, performance at elections the problem with your leadership is you
:35:23. > :35:26.are now going the way of the National front, heading for
:35:27. > :35:31.oblivion. As I said to you before, that may be the case, if all the
:35:32. > :35:36.problems we had not highlighted and how we got a huge vote so many years
:35:37. > :35:41.ago, six years ago now, five years ago, in 2009, if they were not
:35:42. > :35:45.around. These things are only going to get worse. We are looking at a
:35:46. > :35:49.prototype Islamic republic that is going to be set up in this country.
:35:50. > :35:53.That will lead to huge problems Only the British National Party are
:35:54. > :35:58.prepared to say that and deal with it. Word leaked out that I was doing
:35:59. > :36:03.this interview with you before the weekend. Isn't it a sign of how
:36:04. > :36:08.irrelevant you now are that not a single person has turned up at New
:36:09. > :36:13.Broadcasting House this morning to protest? Used to be hundreds would
:36:14. > :36:17.turn up when we said the BNP were on. That is the left for you, they
:36:18. > :36:21.put the clocks forward and they could not be bothered to get out of
:36:22. > :36:24.bed. I think they are still in bed. Thank you.
:36:25. > :36:27.You're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in
:36:28. > :36:47.Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here
:36:48. > :36:56.Hello and the warmest of welcomes. Coming up fear deep's work for every
:36:57. > :37:00.day's they. Is a living wagd of ?7 65 an hour something the businesses
:37:01. > :37:08.in the region afford? I will ask their wrecked some MP. Would an
:37:09. > :37:14.independent Scotland be a threat or an opportunity? The SNP spe`k to us
:37:15. > :37:21.from Edinburgh. First, how luch does Labour agree with the coalition
:37:22. > :37:33.off`line on welfare? The region s MP did vote to put a cap on well first
:37:34. > :37:37.bending. `` welfare spending. There were some rebels who disagrde on
:37:38. > :37:41.putting a limit on welfare spending. Graham Morris, yot were
:37:42. > :37:53.there not for the vote, but she would have joined Labour rebels You
:37:54. > :37:58.said voting for this dude `` showed that you could be trusted whth
:37:59. > :38:04.public money. The idea of their benefit cap is built on a ntmber of
:38:05. > :38:10.myths. It is extremely divisive The idea that somehow people on benefits
:38:11. > :38:13.are being demonised by the present government, a suggestion solehow
:38:14. > :38:21.they are immune from what is happening, is not the case. Benefits
:38:22. > :38:28.have been capped at 1% incrdase When you take into account hnflation
:38:29. > :38:33.at two x 7% and lost of livhng rises and fuel, people on benefits are
:38:34. > :38:39.struggling to make ends meet. `` 2.7%. There is a number of ways we
:38:40. > :38:43.could balance the budget. In relation to housing benefit, which I
:38:44. > :38:47.think we should call the Lord benefit. The housing benefit bill
:38:48. > :38:55.has been increasing dramatically. `` landlord benefit. That is bdcause
:38:56. > :39:00.there are not any rent controls or rent caps. Rents in the private
:39:01. > :39:04.sector are growing dramatic`lly Those in receipt of housing
:39:05. > :39:09.benefit, the majority of whom are in work, are calling on greater support
:39:10. > :39:18.from public funds. A few rebels apart, Labour MPs did vote for a
:39:19. > :39:23.cap. They have opposed everx cut to spending throughout the Parliament
:39:24. > :39:28.from 2010 to 2014. You have got to be frank here as Graham said, he
:39:29. > :39:32.does not agree with his own party leader. The bottom line is theirs,
:39:33. > :39:37.they would like to keep spending more and more money. The public can
:39:38. > :39:41.have no trust and anybody who is saying that they would keep spending
:39:42. > :39:45.on welfare, keep spending on benefits and circumstances when we
:39:46. > :39:50.are to balance the books. Wd will have to move on in that state. We
:39:51. > :39:56.will have to disagree. There is a little under six months
:39:57. > :40:02.ago on whether Scotland dechde on whether to become an independent
:40:03. > :40:05.country or not. MPs in the region put their arguments against the case
:40:06. > :40:12.on whether they should becole independent or not. They met the
:40:13. > :40:17.late `` Labour leadership in the Scottish Parliament. Labour is
:40:18. > :40:22.offering the Scottish Parli`ment more powers over taxation if they
:40:23. > :40:25.stay within the UK. Some fe`r greater devolution will put the
:40:26. > :40:31.North East and Cumbria at a disadvantage when it comes to
:40:32. > :40:37.attracting jobs. Bridget rejects and says risks come from an inddpendent
:40:38. > :40:41.Scotland. My concern is what Scotland would become separ`te from
:40:42. > :40:47.the rest of the United Kingdom. That could have an impact on jobs in the
:40:48. > :40:50.North East. I think it is ilportant that we recognise the benefhts in
:40:51. > :40:54.the north eased of Scotland as being part of the United Kingdom, the
:40:55. > :41:02.shared industry and history that we have, and look on that relationship
:41:03. > :41:05.and build on it than separate it. Christine Grahame is an SNP member
:41:06. > :41:11.of the Scottish Parliament `nd she is in Edinburgh for us now. MPs in
:41:12. > :41:17.the North East say we should be scared of an independent Scotland.
:41:18. > :41:22.We will be your best friend. First of all, I am sure your listdners
:41:23. > :41:25.will appreciate, it is a matter for the people of Scotland to ddcide
:41:26. > :41:30.whether they want to be inddpendent or otherwise. I think that `n
:41:31. > :41:36.independent Scotland is takhng full control over its affairs, bdcause we
:41:37. > :41:41.have taken control of our domestic affairs for 15 years, will be an
:41:42. > :41:44.ally of the North of England, because many of the problems of the
:41:45. > :41:48.North of England are reflected in the problems in Scotland. I think we
:41:49. > :41:52.will liberate the North of Dngland to making sure that they thdmselves
:41:53. > :41:57.will be set about having more power, perhaps in the North of England
:41:58. > :42:03.assembly. A Scottish governlent would be delighted if they topped ``
:42:04. > :42:10.took jobs that could have gone to the North East of Scotland. That is
:42:11. > :42:15.your aim? Scotland has suffdred from this union for a very long time as
:42:16. > :42:20.has a lot of England. The dhfference for us is that we are a nathon, we
:42:21. > :42:24.have our own Parliament, we are in a position to do something about it
:42:25. > :42:30.and becoming independent as a way to do something about it. Therd is also
:42:31. > :42:36.competition there. Scotland would be delighted if it got jobs th`t could
:42:37. > :42:43.have gone to the North eased. `` North East. I think the North
:42:44. > :42:49.East's problems out with thd size of England. `` the South of England. It
:42:50. > :42:54.is not with problem, it is with the South. That is where there `re
:42:55. > :42:58.problems come from. You would like to cut corporation tax, cut airport
:42:59. > :43:04.duty. You want to make yourselves more competitive than the North of
:43:05. > :43:08.England? There is nothing to stop the rest of the UK doing wh`t an
:43:09. > :43:13.independent Scotland wants to do. That would be a matter for the
:43:14. > :43:21.government. In your view, the North of England and Scotland can make
:43:22. > :43:25.Common Cause? Even now I know that people in Berwick which is close to
:43:26. > :43:30.the edges of my constituencx and look to the benefits that ddvolution
:43:31. > :43:34.has brought Scotland. We have no prescription charges, we have no
:43:35. > :43:39.tuition fees, we have free personal care for the elderly, these are
:43:40. > :43:44.things that the Scottish Parliament have done that I think are socially
:43:45. > :43:47.just. I know that people close to the Scottish border can see that.
:43:48. > :43:51.The challenge for the North of England is to make sure that the
:43:52. > :43:55.North of England people get what Scotland as an they could ghve
:43:56. > :44:05.themselves the power to do that Thank you very much for that.
:44:06. > :44:14.SNP voters `` will hope that voters will plump for independence. What
:44:15. > :44:16.will the borders look like? The government has hinted there might be
:44:17. > :44:23.border checkpoints to control immigration, claimed as
:44:24. > :44:29.scaremongering by nationalists. There could be two sets of
:44:30. > :44:33.currencies and two different nationalities.
:44:34. > :44:40.I am driving into another country, there is no passport control,
:44:41. > :44:45.nothing. This is the intern`tional border between the United Khngdom
:44:46. > :44:49.that way and the Republic of Ireland just down there. Only the road signs
:44:50. > :44:52.give you a clue that you have crossed into the Republic of
:44:53. > :44:59.Ireland. With less than six months to Scotland's referendum, wd could
:45:00. > :45:04.have one too. What lessons can we win from here? This family shopping
:45:05. > :45:10.in a town close to the borddr. The shirts give you a clue of their
:45:11. > :45:19.mixed roots. The closeness of the border means he carries a collection
:45:20. > :45:24.of different currencies. Yot come into a shop like this, what you see
:45:25. > :45:30.is that you will get the Sthrling prize and the euro price on the
:45:31. > :45:34.goods. You can pay for that in sterling or euros. Supporters of
:45:35. > :45:39.Scotland yesterday and say they would keep the pound. The government
:45:40. > :45:48.say they cannot. If Scotland does Gratz Durling, he says therd are
:45:49. > :46:01.lessons here for our governlent ` `` scrap sterling. You could do the
:46:02. > :46:07.same thing if we had an inddpendent Scotland? If the adapt themselves
:46:08. > :46:11.and when the exchange rate hs the right way round, they have ` great
:46:12. > :46:20.of virginity. We are back in Newcastle. We are Northern Hreland,
:46:21. > :46:24.just up the road from the Rdpublic, but this man does most of hhs
:46:25. > :46:29.business elsewhere. He does not like dealing into currencies. Thdre is
:46:30. > :46:36.trouble with getting euros converted everyday if you were going to do the
:46:37. > :46:42.trade that way. It is easier to deal with UK`based companies on `
:46:43. > :46:48.sterling basis. They did no business south of the border ten years ago.
:46:49. > :46:53.In terms of currency fluctu`tions, if we put in for some busindss, we
:46:54. > :46:59.can end up cheaper across`the`board. That helps us win
:47:00. > :47:02.new business. When we are btying materials and from across the
:47:03. > :47:09.border, it can be cheaper for us to buy. This creates a thousand jobs a
:47:10. > :47:13.year. Business leaders say `n independent Scotland could be
:47:14. > :47:19.Stourbridge and in the same way My advice is not to fear this border.
:47:20. > :47:28.Very often we take things for ranted. It could present an
:47:29. > :47:33.virginity itself. `` and opportunity itself.
:47:34. > :47:39.A new international border light not mean border guards as well. It could
:47:40. > :47:45.provide a virginity is for some and extra costs for others.
:47:46. > :47:51.There is free movement, no guards. There would be a significant change.
:47:52. > :48:01.Clearly it is a matter for the Scots people to decide. I believe we have
:48:02. > :48:11.done everything from beating our common foes together. There is no
:48:12. > :48:19.need for a press of border controls. Your government is scaring people
:48:20. > :48:24.into believing that is true. There is looser immigration controls. They
:48:25. > :48:31.would need to negotiate with all youth team `` 28 European
:48:32. > :48:36.countries. Are you going to insist on there being border guards? An
:48:37. > :48:41.independent Scotland is different from an Irish country which is part
:48:42. > :48:45.of the EU. There is a different arrangement and they would have to
:48:46. > :48:48.negotiate that arrangement. That is no done deal. Other leaders have
:48:49. > :48:57.made it clear they would not be so welcome. That is to be disptted
:48:58. > :49:00.Here you have MPs saying we are fine with devolution for Scotland. If
:49:01. > :49:08.Scotland decides to vote no in this referendum. Would businesses be
:49:09. > :49:13.worried about it? I have a lot in common politically, his str`w
:49:14. > :49:23.industrially with Scotland than with other parts of England. ``
:49:24. > :49:27.historically, industrially. My concern is that particularlx in
:49:28. > :49:35.terms of what the economic hmpact will be for my region and the people
:49:36. > :49:41.I represent. Does it matter if it is independence or devolution? Yes it
:49:42. > :49:46.does. If it is the intention of the independent Scotland to abolish the
:49:47. > :49:50.airport duty, if it is their intention to reduce corporation tax,
:49:51. > :49:58.we could find ourselves at ` race to the bottom. I think that wotld be
:49:59. > :50:03.nine interests. That is up to the North of England to sort out and
:50:04. > :50:08.lobby London for that power up year. Labour have not made any proposals
:50:09. > :50:14.to devolve the North East of England. We would be disadv`ntaged
:50:15. > :50:19.if an independent Scotland dmbarked upon a policy of trying to `ttract
:50:20. > :50:23.in word investment at her expense. In terms of what we could do to
:50:24. > :50:30.counter that there is the formation of a strategic association of seven
:50:31. > :50:34.local authorities. The hope is that they will have more power and
:50:35. > :50:41.resources to address some of the historic deficiencies about the lack
:50:42. > :50:45.of transport infrastructure in the North East of England. The reality
:50:46. > :50:50.is if you are not admitted hnto the EU as was said, there may h`ve to be
:50:51. > :50:57.border controls because your immigration policy may be dhfferent.
:50:58. > :51:01.I appreciate, I hope I am not insulting MPs south of the border,
:51:02. > :51:08.but we have heard this for xears. I know some are joining the ddbate on
:51:09. > :51:12.independence. It is a nonsense that Scotland would not be part of the
:51:13. > :51:17.European Union. We have been citizens of it for decades. Much of
:51:18. > :51:24.it is absorbed into our law. We are a huge producer of oil and gas. I do
:51:25. > :51:28.believe Europe does not want to turn its back on these assets. I think,
:51:29. > :51:33.this is another part of the scaremongering which we havd heard
:51:34. > :51:46.for months. Frankly it has been counter`productive. What yot have is
:51:47. > :51:51.practical, the same thing whll happen between England and
:51:52. > :51:56.Scotland, it is all scaremongering. As I say, keep doing it bec`use more
:51:57. > :52:02.and more Scots are determindd to vote yes the more this is s`id. You
:52:03. > :52:09.are driving Scots towards independence. I hope not. I hope it
:52:10. > :52:15.is very much the case that ht is a matter of the heart and head. The
:52:16. > :52:22.problem is for the North of England. Whatever happens in this
:52:23. > :52:27.referendum, more powers will head to Scotland independently. You offer
:52:28. > :52:32.nothing as a counter. Companies in the North East, just as thex showed
:52:33. > :52:37.in the film, they are perfectly able to compete. They could do bdtter
:52:38. > :52:40.than the Scottish companies who will be struggling with a more dhfficult
:52:41. > :52:46.financial situation after bdcoming independent. There is an impact and
:52:47. > :52:49.it would have potential problems to start with. I believe that the North
:52:50. > :52:55.East could compete well with Scotland if we were in compdtition.
:52:56. > :52:59.Thank you very much. Christhne Grahame, thank you very much.
:53:00. > :53:06.We have heard a lot about cost of living. If you are in work, how much
:53:07. > :53:11.do you need to make ends medt? The living wage is higher than the
:53:12. > :53:15.minimum wage which is currently ?6.31. A growing number of
:53:16. > :53:24.businesses in the North East of violence are decided to pay a higher
:53:25. > :53:32.rate. `` have voluntarily ddcided. Paying people a living wage means
:53:33. > :53:40.that people are putting out a better product of product. It is the right
:53:41. > :53:45.thing to do. Personally and morally, but it is the right thing to do for
:53:46. > :53:50.business. Several councils `lso support a living wage for their
:53:51. > :53:56.staff. But not everyone welcomes it. Some say they cannot afford it. My
:53:57. > :54:04.margin is not big enough to cover those wages at the moment. Ht is
:54:05. > :54:08.probably less than what I al getting an eye to 80 hours a week. What
:54:09. > :54:17.about the calls for other elployers to adopt this? I could not `fford to
:54:18. > :54:23.keep paying it. The money h`s got to come from somewhere.
:54:24. > :54:32.You support the living wage. You organise that conference. The market
:54:33. > :54:40.trader is right? On Friday we had this fantastic coming together of
:54:41. > :54:43.the living wage foundation, myself and various businesses coming
:54:44. > :54:48.together and celebrating and supporting and selling the living
:54:49. > :54:52.wage. There are no 20 companies who have registered. These stretch all
:54:53. > :55:01.across from housing as soon as the agents to significant big companies.
:55:02. > :55:08.Also third sector organisathons Can any company do this? Any colpany can
:55:09. > :55:14.do this. We have a tea shop that has signed up to it. Can I and so the
:55:15. > :55:19.point from the traders point of view. Productivity goes up. Your
:55:20. > :55:24.staff retention goes up. Yotr 6 s go down if you pay the living wage and
:55:25. > :55:31.the quality of the output from your staff goes up. Use weak to people
:55:32. > :55:38.like Barclays `` you speak to people like Barclays, people competed for
:55:39. > :55:45.those jobs and they enjoyed it. Is it not embarrassing that he has
:55:46. > :55:54.organised this conference and not yourself? We have had massive
:55:55. > :55:57.support across the Labour P`rty and across the trade unions that Britain
:55:58. > :56:08.needs a pay rise. I agree ddal to does. `` that it does. I do think
:56:09. > :56:13.that with the current cost`of`living crisis, that people are fachng
:56:14. > :56:19.everyday with energy bills... Private companies can make their own
:56:20. > :56:25.decisions, when it comes to public bodies, it will be the taxp`yer that
:56:26. > :56:30.funds the fees. Does the taxpayer not meet the shortfall anyw`y? How
:56:31. > :56:39.many people in work on low wages are having to claim housing bendfit or
:56:40. > :56:46.subsidised taxes? Should it be compulsory? I think we should move
:56:47. > :56:52.towards that. The question of where does the subsidy come from? Are we
:56:53. > :56:59.content as a nation to subshdise wages, because we do that as well,
:57:00. > :57:04.we do that through tax credhts, housing benefits. Some of the larger
:57:05. > :57:07.companies, the compulsion should be amongst larger enterprises who are
:57:08. > :57:14.well able to be a living wage who don't. Do people when the government
:57:15. > :57:18.`` argument or does it need compulsion? You do when the
:57:19. > :57:23.argument. There are more colpanies up and down the country comhng to
:57:24. > :57:27.believe there should be a lhving wage. Our conference was very small,
:57:28. > :57:33.there were only 20 accreditdd employers. They have built tp to 600
:57:34. > :57:38.across the country. Local authorities who have not opted have
:57:39. > :57:42.seen their sick rebates go down they have seen staff retenthon go up
:57:43. > :57:47.and people commit more to the business. George Osborne topped
:57:48. > :57:53.about raising the living wage, but did not raise it as much as he said
:57:54. > :58:01.he would. `` George Osborne spoke about. It was set by the low pay
:58:02. > :58:14.commission. Time to look at the other stories making the news.
:58:15. > :58:17.All in one minute tour. `` this one minute tour.
:58:18. > :58:22.Dozens of rural doctors surgeries and Cumbria are facing clostre
:58:23. > :58:28.according to one MP. He used a debate to provide ministers to
:58:29. > :58:36.provide extra help and warr`nt patient's safety was at risk.
:58:37. > :58:41.Staying with railways, Jennx Chapman has asked for guarantees th`t
:58:42. > :58:47.building HS2 will not mean put services on the these `` North East
:58:48. > :58:53.train line. They are delighted that people in Leeds will soon bd able to
:58:54. > :58:58.enjoy a good service, too. But they do not want it to happen at the
:58:59. > :59:04.expense of the North East m`inline. Can he commit that it will not be
:59:05. > :59:14.the case? We have new rolling stock for the North East mainline.
:59:15. > :59:21.There is a fire engine to bd lost at this fire station.
:59:22. > :59:25.That is about it from us. Wd have a special report looking for `
:59:26. > :59:31.Hillsborough style enquiry to the miners strike 30 years ago. For now,
:59:32. > :59:34.back to Andrew boundaries. Sorry, run out of time.
:59:35. > :59:42.Thanks very much indeed. Andrew back to you.
:59:43. > :59:52.Now let's get more from our political panel. If the BNP
:59:53. > :59:55.finished? They were never spectacularly successful to begin
:59:56. > :59:58.with but one of my childhood memories was a huge fuss in London
:59:59. > :00:02.about the fact that they won a few council seat on the Isle of dogs
:00:03. > :00:05.back in 1993. That was enough to cause a panic. As if they are
:00:06. > :00:09.falling from a great tit and I think the big difference with the National
:00:10. > :00:12.front in France is that they are building on decades of successful
:00:13. > :00:17.that they finished second in the presence of elections in 2002, I
:00:18. > :00:22.think. And, even in the 60s, they were versions of their politics So
:00:23. > :00:31.they are building on a lot whereas the BNP are working with incredibly
:00:32. > :00:35.few raw materials in this country. It is interesting that the BNP does
:00:36. > :00:42.seem to be in decline in terms of its membership and financially, but
:00:43. > :00:46.in France, the far right party, not as far right as the BNP, but pretty
:00:47. > :00:52.far right, will probably do well in the second round of the French local
:00:53. > :00:58.elections. You could say the same about Golden Dawn in Greece. Parties
:00:59. > :01:02.prosper when the picture is pre-rolled for them. If mainstream
:01:03. > :01:06.parties talk endlessly about immigration, saying you cannot get a
:01:07. > :01:09.council house because it has gone to an immigrant instead of saying it is
:01:10. > :01:13.because there are not enough council houses, that creates the conditions
:01:14. > :01:18.in which the far right can thrive. We are lucky that all the members of
:01:19. > :01:25.the BNP fell out with each other. As extreme members of the far right and
:01:26. > :01:30.left do. You can see that with the comedian in France, he has got a lot
:01:31. > :01:38.of support from people on the left as well. I asked Simon Derby was
:01:39. > :01:46.here victim of a pincer movement that UKIP were taken away voters and
:01:47. > :01:53.EDL has captured the Street protest. Yes, and Giles still not mention
:01:54. > :01:58.that the Labour Party has got its act together. They got the act
:01:59. > :02:04.together in Dagenham. Margaret Hodge and Jon Cruddas did a very good job.
:02:05. > :02:08.I think UKIP would say, not a racist party but they are picking up votes
:02:09. > :02:11.from people who would once have voted BNP. But it is interesting the
:02:12. > :02:18.difference between Britain and France. Why is it that the Front
:02:19. > :02:27.Nationale came second in 2002 when they are not far right? I think they
:02:28. > :02:33.were on a five-year cycle because the next election was 2007. 200
:02:34. > :02:47.they came second when Jean-Marie Le Pen came second. They are not as far
:02:48. > :02:51.right as the BNP. Marine has put them -- cleaned them up a bit.
:02:52. > :02:55.Diplomatically there is a much harder vote which spreads further
:02:56. > :03:08.across the electorate in France than there is in this country. This is a
:03:09. > :03:14.much more tolerant country. If Marine Le Pen does well today, she
:03:15. > :03:17.will not win that many because the centre-right and centre-left will
:03:18. > :03:24.always gang up against terror in the second round, but it sets the tone
:03:25. > :03:29.for the European elections. It does and for the next French presidential
:03:30. > :03:33.election as well. I think what she's doing masterfully is combining a far
:03:34. > :03:37.right politics with what you might call a far left economic politics.
:03:38. > :03:41.She's not just picking up votes from xenophobes, she is picking up votes
:03:42. > :03:47.from who feel victimised from globalisation. They are people who
:03:48. > :03:51.would be voting for socialists but are put off by the current
:03:52. > :03:55.president. That is what I do not think the British far right parties
:03:56. > :04:00.have been able to do. You sort Simon Derby try to tell you that the BNP
:04:01. > :04:04.are not far right party. I think he was going to say if you look at
:04:05. > :04:10.issues of protectionism, standing up against globalisation, they are
:04:11. > :04:15.quite statist. That is where the phrase National Socialist comes
:04:16. > :04:19.from. That is why a little bit of electoral success is often a killer
:04:20. > :04:24.for far right parties. They get a few council seats and then they are
:04:25. > :04:27.rubbish. They are not getting people's bins collected so they
:04:28. > :04:32.become part of the system that people were voting against in the
:04:33. > :04:36.first place. Lets go on to the Labour Party. If you are a Labour
:04:37. > :04:40.Party supporter and you want to be cheered up, you pick up the Sunday
:04:41. > :04:45.Times where you see a poll where the leader is up to seven points. If you
:04:46. > :04:50.are Tory Lib Dem and you want to be cheered up, you pick up the
:04:51. > :04:55.Observer, the left-wing paper, where the Labour leader is still 1%. I
:04:56. > :04:59.have read in the paper that there is quite a lot of of the record
:05:00. > :05:05.briefings going on at the top of the Labour Party. Give us a sense of the
:05:06. > :05:12.mood. Clearly, they are unsettled. One pol looks OK but there has been
:05:13. > :05:19.a run of polls where there is a lead over the Tories which is closing.
:05:20. > :05:26.There are worrying number of people who are what are called the 35s and
:05:27. > :05:30.they are people who thought all the Labour Party needs to do is sit
:05:31. > :05:34.still because there are a number of Liberal Democrat voters who hate the
:05:35. > :05:39.coalition. Because the Conservatives did not get through the boundary
:05:40. > :05:42.changes they needed to win, we can sit tight and it will all be fine.
:05:43. > :05:49.What a few wise old heads are concerned about is they feel this
:05:50. > :05:53.has a feel of 1987 about it when the Labour Party was united. They had a
:05:54. > :05:58.very good leader. The leader was impressive, the party was united and
:05:59. > :06:03.then what happened? They met the British people and an election. The
:06:04. > :06:06.British people said, terribly sorry, you are not occupying the party
:06:07. > :06:12.political territory where we will vote for you. There are some people
:06:13. > :06:16.from the Blair era who say it feels a bit complacent and there may be a
:06:17. > :06:21.bit of a shock when they meet the voters. We talk about people being
:06:22. > :06:26.unsettled but Ed Miliband is not unsettled. His defining
:06:27. > :06:30.characteristic is you might call it steadiness or you might call it a
:06:31. > :06:34.lack of agility. He could not respond to the pension stuff in the
:06:35. > :06:37.budget which was thrown at him. But he's very good at separating the
:06:38. > :06:41.signal from the noise. They may think this will all change in me.
:06:42. > :06:47.The Tories may be on the back foot after the European elections. He has
:06:48. > :06:53.the ability to set the political weather. He did it with the price
:06:54. > :06:57.freeze. There is no doubt that Mr Davey would not be referring these
:06:58. > :07:01.energy companies to the competition authorities if it had not been for
:07:02. > :07:04.that speech by the Labour leader. And we read today he has come up
:07:05. > :07:11.with another policy which will be attention grabbing to cut student
:07:12. > :07:14.tuition fees. It is easy to forget that before he announced the price
:07:15. > :07:19.freeze he was in as much vertical trouble as he is now. I think the
:07:20. > :07:26.Labour poll lead will expand up to five or 6% by the summer, assuming
:07:27. > :07:33.the Tories do badly. The question is, is five or 6% enough? Nick
:07:34. > :07:39.through the analogy with 1987. This reminds me of the Conservatives in
:07:40. > :07:44.2009/10. You have a steadily sinking poll lead, differences in what
:07:45. > :07:48.campaign they should be running and personal animosity behind the
:07:49. > :07:53.scenes. It led to them throwing away an election which seemed to be
:07:54. > :07:57.winnable. There is an important difference with the 1980s which was
:07:58. > :08:03.because you did not know when the election would be. Will it be in 87
:08:04. > :08:06.or 88? They do not need to make up their mind until next year. What
:08:07. > :08:10.they are telling the pollsters now, we do not like this government
:08:11. > :08:14.because of course, you do not like the government. But next January or
:08:15. > :08:18.February they will be making up their minds. Is there a lot of
:08:19. > :08:24.animosity among the leading Labour figures behind-the-scenes? It must
:08:25. > :08:28.be personal or tactical because there are not big ideological
:08:29. > :08:34.differences between them, is there? Yes and no. What is striking is how
:08:35. > :08:39.little support Miliband gets from the shadow cabinet. He does not have
:08:40. > :08:45.outriders. That has been a continuous theme. Said he feels he
:08:46. > :08:49.is on his own? That they feel they do not get support from him. There
:08:50. > :08:55.was a column by Jenni Russell saying he is distant and detached. And
:08:56. > :09:03.Andrew Walmsley touched on this in the Observer. One of the divisions
:09:04. > :09:08.is Ed versus Ed. There is a terrible structural problem between those
:09:09. > :09:11.two. It is a real problem. Ed Miliband believes Ed Balls has not
:09:12. > :09:16.done enough to get economic red ability. Ed Balls believes Ed
:09:17. > :09:21.Miliband is making airy fairy speeches and it will not cut with
:09:22. > :09:25.the electorate. Neither Mr Cameron nor Mr Miller band took part in the
:09:26. > :09:30.debate which happened earlier this week between the Lib Dems and UKIP.
:09:31. > :09:34.We have got another one coming up on the BBC on Wednesday night. Let s
:09:35. > :09:42.remind ourselves of what happened in last week's debate.
:09:43. > :09:50.I will ask Nick to open the batting. We are better off in Europe...
:09:51. > :09:57.Frankly not working any more. A referendum on Europe. I agree with
:09:58. > :10:06.you. I agree with you. If you can read the small print. Pull up the
:10:07. > :10:12.drawbridge, pool drawbridge up. . We have 485 million people... It is
:10:13. > :10:18.simply not true! Not true. Not true. Not true. Identical with Nick. I
:10:19. > :10:25.don't agree with Nick. Based on facts, facts, the facts, facts, the
:10:26. > :10:31.facts... Thank God we did not listen to you. The food is getting better
:10:32. > :10:41.here. Jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs. You have never had a proper job. Great
:10:42. > :10:46.not little England. Good night. I think it is seven o'clock BBC Two.
:10:47. > :10:52.Helen, what was the outcome of that and how do we mark our card for this
:10:53. > :10:56.week? It was not a great time for pundits. Everybody called the debate
:10:57. > :11:03.for Nick and then they said actually, we think it has gone the
:11:04. > :11:08.other way. Consensus emerged later on that Nick Clegg made a difficult
:11:09. > :11:11.argument. I think the most important thing Nigel Farage said was he
:11:12. > :11:15.distinguished out the immigration policy by saying we're not just
:11:16. > :11:19.closing day over, we want people to come, we just do not want mass EU
:11:20. > :11:24.immigration. That is an important thing for him to say to get away
:11:25. > :11:29.from the echoes of the far right. I suspect Nick Clegg will not ask us
:11:30. > :11:35.to read the small print. That was 11 turn he took. It compounded his
:11:36. > :11:39.reputation for being sneaky. I slightly disagree about the pundits.
:11:40. > :11:46.I say this as someone who thought far it would win. -- Nigel Farage
:11:47. > :11:49.would win. The fact that the public disagree with you and the public
:11:50. > :11:58.favoured Nigel Farage does not mean the public were wrong. The question
:11:59. > :12:04.is, who is going to tune in for the second one? What is the answer to
:12:05. > :12:10.that? Phil Collins argument is a man who is on 8% is fantastic. It is a
:12:11. > :12:14.binary choice in this debate. Clearly they need to brush up on
:12:15. > :12:18.opposite areas. Nigel Farage needs to brush up on facts and Nick Clegg
:12:19. > :12:22.needs to brush up on the motions because he did not connect very
:12:23. > :12:28.well. Where Nick Clegg may go after Nigel Farage is when the -- when he
:12:29. > :12:33.said the EU has blood on its hands with Ukraine. He then came back to
:12:34. > :12:35.talk about the vanity of EU foreign policy and said European Union had
:12:36. > :12:41.made what was going on in Syria worse. It is one thing to say I do
:12:42. > :12:44.not think the UK should be part of the joint European foreign policy,
:12:45. > :12:48.it is part of another thing to say that Europe which will act with or
:12:49. > :12:51.without the UK is responsible for blood on the streets of Kiev and
:12:52. > :12:57.also responsible for exacerbating the Civil War in Syria. Maybe an
:12:58. > :13:04.hour is too long for Nigel Farage's shtick? That may be the case but
:13:05. > :13:08.Nick Clegg has precedence. He does that show and he has had to deal
:13:09. > :13:13.with the worst thing with dealing with what is thrown at him so he has
:13:14. > :13:17.honed his view consistently. We will see what happens in part two.
:13:18. > :13:21.That's all for this week. The Daily Politics is on BBC Two at lunchtime
:13:22. > :13:25.every day this week. I'll be here next week at the usual time of 1
:13:26. > :13:32.o'clock. Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.