:00:32. > :00:36.Aternoon folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics. As MPs head off for
:00:37. > :00:42.their Easter break, campaigning for the European elections in six weeks'
:00:43. > :00:45.time gets underway. In a Sunday Politics special, we'll debate the
:00:46. > :00:47.issues at stake on May 22nd with senior party figures from the
:00:48. > :00:57.Conservatives, Labour, Liberal Democrats, and UKIP. And as ever
:00:58. > :00:59.we'll be discussing the week ahead with our panel of top political
:01:00. > :01:07.In the North East and Cumbrha: commentators.
:01:08. > :01:10.In the North East and Cumbrha: Labour promises a minister to stand
:01:11. > :01:13.up for the region. And why one north`east council is
:01:14. > :01:14.scrapping parking charges for motorists, just as Cumbria
:01:15. > :01:17.introduces them. newspapers which some claim are
:01:18. > :01:23.politically slanted and not impartial about informing people of
:01:24. > :01:27.local services. So all that to come between now and
:01:28. > :01:29.quarter to four and for the next thirty minutes or so we'll be
:01:30. > :01:32.debating the European elections Here in the studio we have Syed
:01:33. > :01:35.Kamall, leader of the Conservatives in the European Parliament, Richard
:01:36. > :01:38.Howitt, chair of the Labour group of MEPs, Sarah Ludford, deputy leader
:01:39. > :01:48.of the Lib Dems in Europe, and Patrick O'Flynn, UKIP's director of
:01:49. > :01:51.communications. Welcome to you all. In a moment, all four will give us
:01:52. > :02:01.their opening pitch for the elections. A little earlier they
:02:02. > :02:04.drew lots to decide who'll go first. And that privilege goes to Syed
:02:05. > :02:09.Before that, though, here's a quick reminder of what all the fuss is
:02:10. > :02:13.about. The vote to choose members of the
:02:14. > :02:17.European Parliament takes place on Thursday the 22nd of May. The same
:02:18. > :02:20.day as local elections are held in England and Northern Ireland. The UK
:02:21. > :02:24.sends 73 England and Northern Ireland. The UK
:02:25. > :02:28.sends NTP is to Brussels. And the vote is a form of proportional
:02:29. > :02:36.representation. In total, there are 751 MEPs from the 28 member states.
:02:37. > :02:40.What do they do all day? The European Parliament's power has
:02:41. > :02:43.grown. A vet of the EU commissioners and they can amend, approve or
:02:44. > :02:50.reject nearly all EU legislation and the EU budget. Some laws MEPs have
:02:51. > :02:56.been responsible for include price caps on mobile phone chargers,
:02:57. > :03:03.banking regulation and cover food regulation two -- labelling.
:03:04. > :03:08.Syed Kamall, you have 30 seconds. Europe cannot go on as it is. Europe
:03:09. > :03:12.needs to change. And our relationship with Europe needs to
:03:13. > :03:15.change. Only the Conservatives have a plan to deliver that change and of
:03:16. > :03:20.the British people and in-out referendum. Labour and the Lib Dems
:03:21. > :03:26.will not and UKIP simply cannot Only the Conservatives will offer
:03:27. > :03:30.the three yards, with Conservative MEPs working alongside a
:03:31. > :03:36.conservative Prime Minister. For, really is and above all a
:03:37. > :03:40.referendum. Sarah Ludford is next. Your choice is simple. If you think
:03:41. > :03:45.Britain is better off in Europe vote for the Liberal Democrats. The
:03:46. > :03:49.Lib Dems are the only party of Ian, fighting to keep Britain in Europe
:03:50. > :03:53.and in work. There is nothing patriotic about UKIP's desire to
:03:54. > :03:57.pull-out. That is playing Russian roulette with Britain's economy and
:03:58. > :04:01.jobs. The Conservatives are flirting with exit and Labour lacks the
:04:02. > :04:08.courage to speak up. Thought Liberal Democrat on May the 22nd to say in
:04:09. > :04:14.Europe for jobs and security. Sarah Ludford. Next, Richard Howitt from
:04:15. > :04:18.Labour. The European elections are about who represents you. They are
:04:19. > :04:23.not a referendum on a referendum. Labour MEPs believe in putting jobs
:04:24. > :04:26.and growth first. A guarantee to help young people into work,
:04:27. > :04:30.reforming energy markets so that bills are brought down for good
:04:31. > :04:36.Labour believes in reform in Europe, but within. It is David Cameron who
:04:37. > :04:39.is risking your job and Britain s prosperity because of divisions in
:04:40. > :04:44.his own party. Labour MEPs put British interests first. Our fourth
:04:45. > :04:52.opening statement from Patrick O'Flynn. The EU is old hat. It is a
:04:53. > :04:55.declining regional trade bloc in an era of global trade. It is a
:04:56. > :05:01.20th-century political project designed to prevent conflict in
:05:02. > :05:04.Europe that is now reawakening old hostilities. It is an attempt to
:05:05. > :05:12.force on the European people European this as their primary
:05:13. > :05:16.collective identity. It has hollowed out British democracy and now we do
:05:17. > :05:22.not even control our own borders. That is why you should vote UKIP.
:05:23. > :05:24.That is the opening statements. Let's get on with the debate. Why
:05:25. > :05:31.should people vote in the selections? If you vote UKIP, we can
:05:32. > :05:34.deliver an earthquake that will rock the foundations of British politics
:05:35. > :05:40.and the European political class. We can send a signal to Europe that
:05:41. > :05:45.Britain has had enough, that Britain wants to retain its nation state
:05:46. > :05:50.status and regain political power and the ability to forge trading
:05:51. > :05:56.deals across the world. Britain leading Europe to freedom twice in
:05:57. > :05:59.the last century through bloodshed. We feel that a UKIP win in those
:06:00. > :06:06.elections could help Britain set an example to lead European nation
:06:07. > :06:10.states back to free assembly again. Syed Kamall, isn't it the case that
:06:11. > :06:15.many Tory voters will vote you clip to keep you honest, to keep your
:06:16. > :06:18.feet to the fire? Whatever you think of the European Parliament or the
:06:19. > :06:23.EU, the fact is that the European Parliament as equal power with the
:06:24. > :06:29.28 governments of the EU. When David Cameron delivered the first cut to
:06:30. > :06:32.the EU budget, the first ever cut, he needed a strong team of
:06:33. > :06:39.Conservative MEPs working alongside him. But many of your supporters
:06:40. > :06:48.will vote for UKIP for the reasons I gave. Many will vote Liberal
:06:49. > :06:51.Democrat. Not very many. Many of our supporters will vote for us because
:06:52. > :06:54.we are the only party trying to change the EU and offer reform. We
:06:55. > :07:00.have offered renegotiation and a referendum. And how would you vote
:07:01. > :07:05.in such a referendum? We have no idea whether he would vote yes or
:07:06. > :07:11.no. Let him answer. I will answer that question. If the EU continues
:07:12. > :07:14.on this road, towards a United States of Europe, and if there was
:07:15. > :07:20.no change at the time of the referendum, then I would probably
:07:21. > :07:24.vote to leave. You have no confidence in David Cameron? We
:07:25. > :07:26.Javier Culson opportunity to read negotiate our relationship with
:07:27. > :07:29.Europe and the Conservatives are at the forefront of that agenda. David
:07:30. > :07:37.Cameron have not given a list of demands. He said that if things do
:07:38. > :07:43.not change, he will probably vote to leave, is that right? If at the time
:07:44. > :07:46.of the referendum, things had not changed, I would vote to leave and
:07:47. > :07:53.we have a golden opportunity to perform the agenda. Richard, the
:07:54. > :08:01.last time the British people had a say on this was over 40 years ago.
:08:02. > :08:06.Under a Labour government. Which was deeply divided on the issue. And
:08:07. > :08:12.that was a say on the common market. Today's EU is a very different
:08:13. > :08:17.animal from the common market. Why can we not, under another Labour
:08:18. > :08:23.government, have another vote? First of all, we want it to be more than a
:08:24. > :08:27.free trading area. We make no apologies about that. But in the
:08:28. > :08:31.elections because this is half of Britain's exports and investment. If
:08:32. > :08:34.you care about your job and business, you cannot hear from the
:08:35. > :08:38.party of government that they probably want you to leave because
:08:39. > :08:42.the CBI, the engineering employees in Federation and the chimp of
:08:43. > :08:48.commerce, 80% of them say it is necessary to stay in. So why not
:08:49. > :08:51.give us a vote? When David Cameron says he wants to repatriate social
:08:52. > :08:57.powers, he means takeaway maternity rights and holidays. If the case is
:08:58. > :09:04.so strong, why not give us an in-out vote? David Miliband has said that
:09:05. > :09:09.there will be a referendum if there was a proposal to change powers Why
:09:10. > :09:13.wait? This is based on a series of reforms. Labour has a set of
:09:14. > :09:16.reforms. David Cameron is silent about what they would be. That is
:09:17. > :09:20.because he knows that if he put them forward, they would either be
:09:21. > :09:24.unsatisfactory to his Eurosceptic backbenchers and he would be out of
:09:25. > :09:31.a job, or they would be unacceptable to European leaders. Why is your
:09:32. > :09:35.leader missing in action? Ed Miliband is unable to say even the
:09:36. > :09:42.positive things that you are saying. He has run away from the argument.
:09:43. > :09:46.He actually said there would not be a referendum in his time.
:09:47. > :09:54.For a conservative to say they will have a referendum but not give the
:09:55. > :10:00.reforms, it is a mistake. Nick Clegg gave Nigel Farage a huge opportunity
:10:01. > :10:04.in that debate. He said that the Eurosceptic view was to leave
:10:05. > :10:10.Britain like Billy no mates. I can say that he is the best qualified
:10:11. > :10:14.person to say that. Sarah Ludford, you have said that lots of people
:10:15. > :10:18.are going to vote Lib Dem but that is not what the polls are saying.
:10:19. > :10:21.You are 7% in two polls this morning. Eclectic's decision to
:10:22. > :10:27.champion Europe has been a disaster for you. You face wet out. We swayed
:10:28. > :10:32.a lot of people our way with Nick Clegg's debate. Where is the
:10:33. > :10:38.evidence? We are the only party that is completely united, saying that we
:10:39. > :10:40.are wanting to stay in. It is essential because formally and jobs
:10:41. > :10:46.are supported by our trade with the EU. Linked to the EU. We are finding
:10:47. > :10:50.a lot of moderate conservative voters are actually fed up with the
:10:51. > :10:59.Tories being split and divided all over the place. Syed Kamall saying
:11:00. > :11:03.that we might vote in rout. -- in or out. We are consistent. A poll in
:11:04. > :11:08.London showed that 18% would vote for us. I am delighted about that.
:11:09. > :11:14.London is not the whole country it may surprise you. We need to move on
:11:15. > :11:17.to immigration, an important issue. We are a member of the EU and the
:11:18. > :11:22.rules say that with a few caveats, our fellow EU citizens are free to
:11:23. > :11:28.come here if they want. Why can we not just accept that? Britain has a
:11:29. > :11:31.proud record when it comes to immigration. We have been open to
:11:32. > :11:35.people across the world for centuries. But we welcome people who
:11:36. > :11:40.come to our country to contribute to pay taxes and two wards are a
:11:41. > :11:43.society positively. But there are three real concerns that we have to
:11:44. > :11:48.address. The first one is numbers, and secondly people who may come
:11:49. > :11:52.here not to work but for benefits, and thirdly, getting a hang of the
:11:53. > :11:56.numbers. I think it is shameful that only this week the office for
:11:57. > :12:01.National said that they did not collect sufficient figures under a
:12:02. > :12:05.Labour government. 350,000 extra people came in and they did not
:12:06. > :12:11.count the numbers. That is the size of a city like Cardiff. That is
:12:12. > :12:16.shameful. 350,000 came from all over the place. Do you accept the free
:12:17. > :12:20.movement of peoples within the EU? I accept and am open to people who
:12:21. > :12:26.want to come here and contribute. In the same way... Do you accept the
:12:27. > :12:32.free movement of peoples within the EU? In our manifesto, we have said
:12:33. > :12:35.it is an issue for reform. We have to make sure that people are coming
:12:36. > :12:43.here to work and contribute positively, not simply to come here
:12:44. > :12:47.and take advantage of the system. I will tell you what else is
:12:48. > :12:49.shameful. What is shameful is David Cameron making a pledge to the
:12:50. > :12:54.British people on an issue that they really care about, to bring net
:12:55. > :12:58.immigration down to the tens of thousands a year, having no means of
:12:59. > :13:02.fulfilling that pledge. And we see now it is back up to 212,000 a year
:13:03. > :13:07.because we have no volume control and no quality control from
:13:08. > :13:11.immigration from our neighbours And that is a disgrace. How could UKIP
:13:12. > :13:16.address that issue? Because we would leave the EU. How? Tell me how. You
:13:17. > :13:20.do not have a single member of Parliament. He will not get a single
:13:21. > :13:30.member of Parliament. How are you... ? TUC are hoping to get an
:13:31. > :13:40.MEP. What do you say? -- he is here today hoping to get an MEP. All of
:13:41. > :13:47.-- almost 2 million Brits live and work in the rest of the EU. Is that
:13:48. > :13:54.worth having? The majority are wealthy, retired people. Why do not
:13:55. > :13:56.object to bilateral agreements with countries with similar living
:13:57. > :14:01.standards to us. France, the Netherlands, that works fine. But
:14:02. > :14:04.these three people want Turkey to join the EU, 75 Na Li and people
:14:05. > :14:18.running our country, only 10% of which... Syed Kamall is Michael year
:14:19. > :14:21.to say whether they are in favour of free movement for work, not for
:14:22. > :14:29.benefits... That is what I'm saying. You said you were unable to
:14:30. > :14:32.be clear. That leaves 2 million British people absolutely unsure as
:14:33. > :14:36.to whether they would have a right to continue to live in other
:14:37. > :14:40.countries. It is a two-way street. You are putting those people in a
:14:41. > :14:42.state of uncertainty. EU migrants have been good for the British
:14:43. > :14:46.economy and contribute far more than they take out in services and
:14:47. > :14:53.benefits. One in seven businesses were founded in -- by migrants. And
:14:54. > :15:00.they cannot just turn up and claim benefits. The coalition government
:15:01. > :15:04.has legislated to make sure that they cannot claim for three months.
:15:05. > :15:12.They will not be able to claim for more than six months. Richard
:15:13. > :15:19.Howitt, Jack Straw said it was A spectacular mistake for Labour to
:15:20. > :15:24.allow EU migrants from Poland and Hungary to work in the UK from
:15:25. > :15:28.2004." Why should we trust a party that makes spectacular mistakes and
:15:29. > :15:33.hasn't apologised for it? We accept it is a mistake and I apologise We
:15:34. > :15:37.make a firm commitment for new EU states we will put down transitional
:15:38. > :15:40.controls. When I listen to the Conservatives and UKIP trying to
:15:41. > :15:45.re-write history, saying immigration was out of control, uncontrolled,
:15:46. > :15:50.open door, we hear it over and over again. It is not true. Anyone who
:15:51. > :15:57.was around at the time... Come on, Richard. Hold on, you undercounted
:15:58. > :16:02.by 350,000. You were letting 2 million in over the years, an
:16:03. > :16:08.under-counted by 350,000 people you didn't know came in. You should have
:16:09. > :16:14.tightened the benefit rules. The Conservative MEP today has, in four
:16:15. > :16:18.years in government in Britain, is trying it blame the previous Labour
:16:19. > :16:23.Government over the fact they won't count people in or people out.
:16:24. > :16:30.Yvette Cooper - it is not easy for people to come to the country and
:16:31. > :16:36.benefits are changing, changing the habitual residence test and we are
:16:37. > :16:39.going to say that migrants can't come and claim child benefit if
:16:40. > :16:42.their children are outside the country. Labour a has shown they
:16:43. > :16:47.have listened to concerns but we say it is a stronger, better, country
:16:48. > :16:50.because it is diverse and multicultural snoo.d this is fantasy
:16:51. > :16:55.politics from all the Peters. They are committed to a system with no
:16:56. > :16:59.volume control and no quality control. You talk about benefits as
:17:00. > :17:04.if it is only out of work benefits. In work benefits cost a lot of money
:17:05. > :17:13.for the British taxpayer. Big businesses bring in minimum wage
:17:14. > :17:18.workers. It is ?5,000 per perschool place What are you going to do? Have
:17:19. > :17:23.all the pensioners come back to Britain? How will will you fund the
:17:24. > :17:28.health care? Do you really think Spain and pour tu ghal their current
:17:29. > :17:33.situation, are going to turn their backs on British property owners
:17:34. > :17:39.with wealth? -- Portugal. They might not wanting pensioners to use their
:17:40. > :17:44.health service. Pensioners often come back to Britain to use the
:17:45. > :17:47.health service. You have shown it represents wealthy people's
:17:48. > :17:53.interests. A second Conservative Party. Hang on a minute... Blue
:17:54. > :17:57.collar wages were down. They want it character for the National Health
:17:58. > :18:01.Service, have cuts that go farther and comprehensive education. This is
:18:02. > :18:04.a debate on the wider politics between Conservatives and UKIP and
:18:05. > :18:10.Labour will... You can't both talk time. UKIP - they haven't thought it
:18:11. > :18:13.through, thousand they will have trade access in the EU, hasn't
:18:14. > :18:16.thought how they will have trade deals that the Liberal Democrats
:18:17. > :18:21.support, like with the United States: Would you have a cap on
:18:22. > :18:26.non-EU immigrants? We are not in favour of a cap. No cap on either.
:18:27. > :18:31.No. Well it is a target. It is a moving feast, as it were. Would you
:18:32. > :18:34.have a limit on non-EU limits? We have limits on quality. We have
:18:35. > :18:39.people who are skilled migrants coming in. Lip its? . By quality,
:18:40. > :18:46.not by quantity. -- Limits. How do you do that? We need to move
:18:47. > :18:51.on to foreign affairs. Should we pool more sovereignty to
:18:52. > :18:55.give the European Union more clout in foreign and defence matters? I'm
:18:56. > :19:00.Labour's defence and foreign affairs spokesperson. No we don't need to
:19:01. > :19:04.pull more powers into Europe. As we undertake this live debate there are
:19:05. > :19:09.guns being fired in Ukraine as we speak. Europe is facing, for the
:19:10. > :19:14.first time, since the end of the Second World War, Armies crossing
:19:15. > :19:18.national borders and floatening peace. Doesn't it -- threatening
:19:19. > :19:23.peace. Doesn't it need to come together of the We don't need more
:19:24. > :19:29.powers. We need political will. With Vladimir Putin, in my view, he has
:19:30. > :19:33.-- we have fallen short in the sanctions. But it is Europe, not
:19:34. > :19:38.Britain. Remember Putin calling Britain little England a small
:19:39. > :19:42.island with no influence. Labour doesn't agree with that. But if
:19:43. > :19:45.that's the mindset that allows someone like Vladimir Putin to send
:19:46. > :19:49.troops across borders threatening peace, it is worrying. And when we
:19:50. > :19:54.have, in UKIP a party that say they admire Putin and support his
:19:55. > :19:59.policies, that is no recipe for how Europe should be wrong. I was
:20:00. > :20:06.waiting for that. Let me ask him. We don't admire Putin as a leader. .
:20:07. > :20:10.Oh. No we don't. What Nigel Farage said, was he admired him as a
:20:11. > :20:14.political operator. Testifies Franklin D Roosevelt who said a good
:20:15. > :20:21.foreign policy was speaking softly but carrying a big stick. The EU
:20:22. > :20:24.shouts its mouthed off while carrying a matchstick. It is fantasy
:20:25. > :20:29.that you wiebl it stand up to Putin over the Ukraine. -- that you would
:20:30. > :20:33.be able to stand up. Do you admire what Putin is doing in the Ukraine?
:20:34. > :20:38.No. What matters in foreign policy is the outcould. We have a terrible
:20:39. > :20:43.outcome in the Ukraine, like Syria, and Georgia... What would UKIP do?
:20:44. > :20:49.What u skip would do, would be to keep our people safe -- UKIP.
:20:50. > :20:55.How? And not commit our Foreign Office and troops Foreign wars.
:20:56. > :20:59.Patrick O'Flynn. You brought up this issue of foreign wars. Now Nigel
:21:00. > :21:04.Farage said in previous debates that Britain should leave the EU because,
:21:05. > :21:10."We have had enough of endless foreign wars." Which wars has the EU
:21:11. > :21:13.taken us into? The EU has ban very important factor in the push towards
:21:14. > :21:23.trying to get military intervention in Syria, for example. What wars has
:21:24. > :21:28.the etch U taken us into it -- EU. Fortunately the EU doesn't have its
:21:29. > :21:35.own army yet. It has wanted to sign up to an expansionist agenda. Did it
:21:36. > :21:40.want Iraq? No, that was Labour. UKIP opposed Iraq, so did most of the
:21:41. > :21:46.mainline Europeans. Germany was against Syria and Libya. No EU
:21:47. > :21:52.policy. We had an Anglo French deal on Syria. A by lateral deal. A
:21:53. > :21:57.European dimension. No, buy lateral. We have a European Union that wants
:21:58. > :22:01.to expand ever-more into other people's spheres of influence. If we
:22:02. > :22:07.are going to stand up to what Putin is do, which obviously Nigel Farage
:22:08. > :22:11.has no intentions of doing, you have to get your act together on economic
:22:12. > :22:15.sanctions and diplomatic force and in trade matters, in supporting
:22:16. > :22:21.eastern European countries. Sayeria, who and whose army? And NATO and
:22:22. > :22:25.working transatlanticically, is important through NATO. I will come
:22:26. > :22:32.to you in a moment. Nick Clegg said that the idea of an EU Army was "A
:22:33. > :22:37.dangerous fantasy that is simply not true ""Why then, are we already
:22:38. > :22:40.working on etch U-owned and controlled drones -- EU-owned and
:22:41. > :22:47.the President of the European Parliament has said that the
:22:48. > :22:50.majority of MEPs want the EU to have "deployable troops." He is not
:22:51. > :22:55.speaking for me or Liberal Democrats. The EU does not and will
:22:56. > :22:58.not have an army. Our defence is mainly shaped through NATO. He is
:22:59. > :23:02.President of the Parliament What we must do is to get equipment which
:23:03. > :23:06.can operate together. We waste an awful lot of our spending in Europe
:23:07. > :23:11.because we duplicate equipment. We don't get the bang for our bucks
:23:12. > :23:15.that we should. It is a useful role for the EU, to get equipment working
:23:16. > :23:21.together. That doesn't make sense. You say military equipment, a NATO
:23:22. > :23:26.job. No, the EU, there is a kind of dimension of the EU members of NATO,
:23:27. > :23:31.in working together on a common quument o o so they can talk to each
:23:32. > :23:36.other -- on common equipment, so they can talk to each other. The EU
:23:37. > :23:39.has a role but not an army. So a European defence agency, that helps
:23:40. > :23:43.our defence industries and those jobs are extremely important and
:23:44. > :23:48.would be threatened if the Conservatives and UKIP took us out
:23:49. > :23:52.of Europe but it is 100 years since the start of the fist world war
:23:53. > :23:56.Remember that Europe was set up to try to get a secure peace within
:23:57. > :24:00.Europe T succeeded. Now look on Ukraine but also on the southern
:24:01. > :24:05.borders to the Arab Spring countries in North Africa. It is more
:24:06. > :24:10.important than ever that we work to keep keep peace and stability on our
:24:11. > :24:13.borders. Can I say to Syed and the Conservative MEPs. You talk about
:24:14. > :24:17.the three Rs, I have a fourth, retreat. If you take us out of the
:24:18. > :24:25.European Union, it will be the worse retreat by Britain since Gallipoli.
:24:26. > :24:28.Let him answer If he wants answers -- the British Parliament is the
:24:29. > :24:32.right place with a British Foreign Secretary to decide our foreign
:24:33. > :24:37.policy. You say that, but can I quote David Cameron, this is germain
:24:38. > :24:42.to what you are saying, David Cameron said "There is no doubt that
:24:43. > :24:46.we are more powerful than Washington, Beijing and Delhi,
:24:47. > :24:49.because we are a powerful player in the European Union." Do you agree?
:24:50. > :24:52.He is saying that there are times when it comes to international
:24:53. > :24:56.foreign affairs when you have to cooperate with partners. Often they
:24:57. > :25:01.are EU partners but often they are not. The problem we have...
:25:02. > :25:08.Washington have made it very clear that it wants Britain to talk
:25:09. > :25:12.through Brussels. No, not at all. Talk through the French and
:25:13. > :25:17.Italians, come on, wake up? Through the EU collective. I'm vice chair of
:25:18. > :25:20.the EU delegation. I hear it from the American counterparts. They want
:25:21. > :25:26.the EU to get itself together and not least on Ukraine. Why should our
:25:27. > :25:29.sovereignty be at the behest of .. ? I want to hear from Syed calm
:25:30. > :25:32.amplgts the British Parliament is the right place to decide our
:25:33. > :25:37.foreign poll sinchts sometimes we work with our European partners
:25:38. > :25:40.sometimes we work with our non-European partners. It is our
:25:41. > :25:47.choice to pull sovereign trito work together. G, we move on to our foirt
:25:48. > :25:55.area. We hear a lot in this country about MPs expenses. Snted the real
:25:56. > :26:01.scan dalt MEPs gravy train. -- isn't the real scandal, the MEPs gravy
:26:02. > :26:07.train? You all have your snouts The trough? I don't think so. There is
:26:08. > :26:10.transpancy. The way we use our expenses is online and anyone can
:26:11. > :26:16.ask to examine those. We have actually voted to reform MEPs'
:26:17. > :26:19.allowances. We regularly vote but unfortunately the majority in
:26:20. > :26:26.Parliament don't. Have you voted to cut them? Yes. By how much? About
:26:27. > :26:30.5%. A 5% We hoped to have economies I never fly except across the
:26:31. > :26:38.Atlantic. Difficult to do it any other way. I didn't swim.
:26:39. > :26:43.But we voted for economy flutes We voted for European Parliament policy
:26:44. > :26:47.of transparency which other groups haven't. UKIP don't turn up to vote.
:26:48. > :26:53.They don't earn their salaries. Dhoent do anything. They should hand
:26:54. > :26:56.their salaries and allowances back. You can't ause UKIP of being on the
:26:57. > :27:03.gravy train and the other that we don't claim our attendance allowance
:27:04. > :27:06.because our MEPs are not there. Your attendance allowance is if you are
:27:07. > :27:10.there, you are saying we don't turn up You are in the building and claim
:27:11. > :27:14.the allowances. You are not an MEP, UKIP are so ashamed of what their
:27:15. > :27:19.MEPs have done in Brussels, they didn't field a sitting MEP for
:27:20. > :27:23.today's debate. I think each party decides who it wishes to field. I
:27:24. > :27:29.have the honour of being the UKIP representative. I would say by going
:27:30. > :27:36.in the past few weeks, xeeming to me saying - we are sick of the others.
:27:37. > :27:41.-- people saying to me. : We are quite excited. Can I ask Patrick
:27:42. > :27:46.O'Flynn. He says he touched a chord and his party is strong in the polls
:27:47. > :27:51.today, between 18% and 20%. Haven't you also struck a chord with hip
:27:52. > :27:56.crasscy. Two of your MEPs were jailed for expenses and benefits'
:27:57. > :28:01.fraud. Two more asked to pay back ?37,000 for using European funds.
:28:02. > :28:05.Nigel Farage has boosted about getting ?2 million in expenses and
:28:06. > :28:08.he went on to employ his wife as a secretarial allowance after telling
:28:09. > :28:15.other members not to People who do wrong and break the law, go to ja. I
:28:16. > :28:18.have no time. -- go to jail. People who spend money they are not
:28:19. > :28:24.entitled to should pay it back and that's right. But what UKIP does and
:28:25. > :28:27.the good UKIP MEPs do, is use the allowances they are given to pursue
:28:28. > :28:30.the political agenda they put up when elected which is to get Britain
:28:31. > :28:37.out of this superstate. Instead of using it for parliamentary work
:28:38. > :28:41.Very interesting. Richard Howitt. We were the first British political
:28:42. > :28:47.party to have independent audits of our MEPs' expenses, from 1990, way
:28:48. > :28:52.before the expenses crisis blew up. The Maria Miller scandal has of
:28:53. > :28:55.course hit David Cameron and the Conservative Party hard as it should
:28:56. > :29:00.do. But you are right, even in my own region you have UKIP candidates
:29:01. > :29:03.and councillors who have been charged with fraudulently filling
:29:04. > :29:08.out election papers and other shot lifting. Another independent inquiry
:29:09. > :29:12.found he made racist comments. We had a European candidate last week
:29:13. > :29:17.in Hertfordshire who got a parking ticket from the police and called
:29:18. > :29:23.the police fascists. These people aren't here.
:29:24. > :29:27.I'll let you have a quick reply We can bring up parochial cases. Let
:29:28. > :29:31.him answer. Not so long ago a Liberal Democrat councillor was sent
:29:32. > :29:37.down for firebombing, I don't say they are a bunch of arsonists, but
:29:38. > :29:44.now I think, Nick Clegg might have burnt some cactuses, once. I'm glad
:29:45. > :29:48.you pronounced that word carefully. Syed Kemal, the EU's auditors, they
:29:49. > :29:54.are strongly critical of the EU s financials saying "Errors permist in
:29:55. > :30:00.all main spending areas", the financials are poorly managed. It is
:30:01. > :30:06.a shambles And that's something that all parties agree on. As we agree on
:30:07. > :30:09.expenses, the British parties are at the forefront of transpancy. Every
:30:10. > :30:13.year when we vote for the discharge of the budget, the Conservatives
:30:14. > :30:16.also vote for it but we don't get enough MEPs from other countries to
:30:17. > :30:20.investigate in favour. The Liberal Democrats have put forward to make
:30:21. > :30:25.each Finance Minister, George Osborne and his counterpart to sign
:30:26. > :30:29.a declaration to say all EU money is properly spent in my country.
:30:30. > :30:34.Funnily enough they don't want to do that but I look forward to you
:30:35. > :30:39.confirming that George Osborne will sign it. All the time we hear it is
:30:40. > :30:44.about the money we pay in, about ?150 per family per year. What about
:30:45. > :30:49.the money that comes back? ?1. billion that comes to Britain's
:30:50. > :30:53.regions because of being in Europe. I myself helped to negotiate a fund
:30:54. > :30:57.to help Britain's food banks to ensure so. Poorest and most
:30:58. > :31:01.destitute people... Isn't it our money that went there first. Can I
:31:02. > :31:04.tell you the Conservative-led Government have blocked us from
:31:05. > :31:08.claiming that money. If you want to have the clearest choice at these
:31:09. > :31:18.European elections, it is between... Tell us why. It affects our rebate.
:31:19. > :31:26.Tony Blair gave away our rebate He is quite right. Lib Dems fought to
:31:27. > :31:29.make sure that we apply for money to help with flooding. That is what the
:31:30. > :31:33.Tories were blocking. If you want the clearest example at the European
:31:34. > :31:38.elections, the Conservative Party and MEPs blocked the cap on bankers
:31:39. > :31:45.bonuses, and then blocked a Labour victory to get money for free
:31:46. > :31:51.banks. We need to move on to the future. It is important and people
:31:52. > :31:54.are watching. The EU's Justice Minister says that we need to build
:31:55. > :32:02.a United States of Europe with the commission as its government. Is she
:32:03. > :32:07.right? Not at all. But the future, if we take the next ten years,
:32:08. > :32:10.thinks about climate change and the fact that we are not going to hit of
:32:11. > :32:15.the two degrees target. Europe has led and needs to lead towards
:32:16. > :32:19.getting a new sustainable world It is the political will to use these
:32:20. > :32:23.powers, so she is wrong. It is about the threats from abroad. Labour
:32:24. > :32:27.reforms like getting a commissioner for growth and rebalancing the
:32:28. > :32:31.budget, reforming the common agricultural policy, all of those
:32:32. > :32:38.things will need to happen to make Europe more democratic and open But
:32:39. > :32:43.against the rise of Brazil and China... We do not need more
:32:44. > :32:48.treaties and powers. We need more action with more Labour MEPs. Sarah
:32:49. > :32:53.Ludford, you would sign up to that? No. Unless they do not think that
:32:54. > :32:59.should concentrate on institutional matters. What we need to do is
:33:00. > :33:03.concentrate on making Europe progrowth and competitive and create
:33:04. > :33:09.more jobs in a competitive world. We need more trade deals to open up our
:33:10. > :33:15.exports, we need to streamline the EU. We need less red tape and
:33:16. > :33:18.Liberal Democrats have done a lot on that. We need better scrutiny of EU
:33:19. > :33:26.legislation at West Munster because the national parties... More powers
:33:27. > :33:35.or less for the EU government? In some areas, I would like to see it
:33:36. > :33:38.slimmed down. Including, I am not sure whether the EU should be
:33:39. > :33:44.funding food banks. I think that is a national responsibility. Dearie
:33:45. > :33:49.me. The EU have to concentrate on the economy and climate change. This
:33:50. > :33:53.is the coalition talking. If we want to fritter away political capital on
:33:54. > :33:57.things which are interfering in national matters, then we do not
:33:58. > :34:03.have the support to tackle those big challenges. Would you still want to
:34:04. > :34:11.join the Euro one-day? Now is not a good idea. We wanted the Eurozone to
:34:12. > :34:15.still be sound, which is why... Did not ask you that. Do you want to
:34:16. > :34:19.join the Euro one-day? If it is a success and it did the economy. Now
:34:20. > :34:27.is not the time but in principle, the idea of a single currency has
:34:28. > :34:31.advantages. That was a yes. We are not ruling it out for ever but not
:34:32. > :34:36.in the foreseeable future. It is not on the horizon. What would our
:34:37. > :34:41.relationship be with Europe in the future if UKIP got its way and we
:34:42. > :34:45.left? We would be trading partners with Europe and we would seek
:34:46. > :34:50.partnership in specific serious I'd tell you what, can I just say..
:34:51. > :34:53.Would we be Norway? We would be stronger than Norway because we are
:34:54. > :34:58.the biggest export market in the Eurozone. We can negotiate a bespoke
:34:59. > :35:03.trading agreement reflecting our enormous importance. Not on
:35:04. > :35:08.services, which make up 80% of the economy. We are the biggest export
:35:09. > :35:12.market in the Eurozone. Our biggest exports are services and they would
:35:13. > :35:17.have to agree to free trade and services. They still have not. Can I
:35:18. > :35:22.read you something? Let me read you something. There would be a free
:35:23. > :35:27.trade agreement in place the day after our exit. Germany would demand
:35:28. > :35:33.no less. Who said that? Not somebody from UKIP, but Digby Jones. Mr
:35:34. > :35:37.business. He is talking about goods, not services. Norway has that
:35:38. > :35:43.and they have no say. You would have to accept the EU rules without any
:35:44. > :35:47.say. No MEPs are commissioners. Let me give you another. Enough. One is
:35:48. > :35:54.enough. Syed Kamall, is it not looking forward pretty much Mission:
:35:55. > :36:01.Impossible for Mr Cameron to get anything like the repatriations of
:36:02. > :36:08.powers that would satisfy your irreconcilables? My father was a bus
:36:09. > :36:11.driver in the 50s and one of the reasons I am here today is because
:36:12. > :36:14.he told me that you can achieve anything if you work hard. He said
:36:15. > :36:18.to me, do not listen to the doubters. When people tell you that
:36:19. > :36:22.something cannot be done, it is a sign of their limitations, not
:36:23. > :36:25.yours. They said that we could not pull Britain out of the bailout
:36:26. > :36:30.mechanism but we did it. He said we could not be to a -- veto European
:36:31. > :36:36.treaty and we did that. They said we would never cut the budget and we
:36:37. > :36:40.did that. The first ever. But overall, we are paying more into the
:36:41. > :36:45.European budget. And they are not sticking to it. More, not less. They
:36:46. > :36:48.say that we cannot achieve reform but we have achieved reform and we
:36:49. > :36:53.are at the forefront of that. Science's father came to Britain
:36:54. > :37:04.because Britain was open and looking outward. What the Conservatives now
:37:05. > :37:10.have, with leaderless Cameron, is an inward looking attitude. They are
:37:11. > :37:15.allowing the rise of UKIP. They are putting so much at risk. People
:37:16. > :37:19.should vote Labour. We are going to have to stop now. No point talking
:37:20. > :37:25.because we are about to finish. I think you all for a spirited debate.
:37:26. > :37:28.I'm sure Nigel Fries and Mr Clegg will have learned a lot about how to
:37:29. > :37:31.debate. -- Nigel Farage. It's just gone 3pm, and you're
:37:32. > :37:34.watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who
:37:35. > :37:54.??NEWINE Hello and welcome to your Scotland. Coming up here in twenty
:37:55. > :37:58.??NEWINE Hello and welcome to your local part of the show, our final
:37:59. > :38:01.one before an Easter break. This week ` Cumbria's introducing them,
:38:02. > :38:04.Northumberland is scrapping them, what are they? Parking charges, of
:38:05. > :38:10.course. But which council h`s got it right? Here in the studio whth me
:38:11. > :38:12.are the Newcastle Labour MP Chi Onwurah, and North Tyneside
:38:13. > :38:16.Conservative Judith Wallace. And a little later we'll be meeting the
:38:17. > :38:17.teenagers at school in Berwhck who've got a vote on Scottish
:38:18. > :38:21.Independence. But we start with the news that the
:38:22. > :38:25.North East is to get its own regional minister, and the North
:38:26. > :38:28.West, too. But only if Labotr wins the General Election. Ed Miliband
:38:29. > :38:32.made the promise this week `s part of a package of measures whhch he
:38:33. > :38:34.says will give towns and cities like Sunderland, Carlisle and
:38:35. > :38:37.Middlesbrough more power to run their own affairs.
:38:38. > :38:40.Newcastle MP Nick Brown had the job of Minister for the North E`st in
:38:41. > :38:44.the last Labour Government. He said it was a chance to influencd
:38:45. > :38:47.decisions at the heart of power Far and away, the most important
:38:48. > :38:50.thing that I was able to contribute was to be the region's advocate
:38:51. > :38:56.within Government, not making requests of them from the ottside,
:38:57. > :38:59.but being on the inside. It was part of the decision`making procdss.
:39:00. > :39:02.Scotland and Wales have that institutionalised, and I thhnk it is
:39:03. > :39:13.important for a region like the North East that has problems of its
:39:14. > :39:17.own to have the same thing. Chi Onwurah, you didn't hear it
:39:18. > :39:26.there, but he ruled himself out of doing it again, do you fancx it I
:39:27. > :39:31.think it is a great thing for the North East and I think it whll be a
:39:32. > :39:34.great role and given the situation we are likely to be in after the
:39:35. > :39:38.next election, we know we are spending 500 times more on transport
:39:39. > :39:41.in London, for example, than we are in Newcastle. We know we ard
:39:42. > :39:45.spending more in the arts and other infrastructure in the South East
:39:46. > :39:49.than here in the North East. Having someone who is in Government, at the
:39:50. > :39:52.heart, able to speak up for the region and make sure that wd get the
:39:53. > :39:56.resources that we need, and also that our businesses are recognised,
:39:57. > :40:00.as well. It is not all about resources, it is about championing
:40:01. > :40:05.us as an investment area. All of that, it would be a great job. OK,
:40:06. > :40:10.but every region is going to get one of his ministers. `` these
:40:11. > :40:13.ministers. Including the Sotth East, so it does not mean we will get
:40:14. > :40:17.special treatment, does it? I don't think the North East wants special
:40:18. > :40:20.treatment... It sounds like you did there. It's not special... We're
:40:21. > :40:25.being badly treated now as we are not getting a fair share of
:40:26. > :40:28.resources. 500 times more on transport in the South East. The
:40:29. > :40:33.North East want its voice loud and proud in the centre of Westlinster.
:40:34. > :40:37.You notice that what the Tories have done, or what the Coalition
:40:38. > :40:39.Government has done, is to `ppoint a minister for Portsmouth bec`use
:40:40. > :40:43.Portsmouth has had the terrhble closures on the docks, but for
:40:44. > :40:48.nowhere else. I think the North East and the other regions deserve to
:40:49. > :40:52.have their voice heard. This is about devolution of power to the
:40:53. > :40:55.regions. You shake your head, is it a good idea to have somebodx at the
:40:56. > :40:58.heart of Government? There `re not many northern ministers in the
:40:59. > :41:02.Coalition Government. I think this new policy announced by Ed Liliband
:41:03. > :41:04.is a very good illustration of the differences between the Labour
:41:05. > :41:09.approach and the Conservative approach. The Conservative `pproach
:41:10. > :41:13.is increasing prosperity for all of us and is to encourage business
:41:14. > :41:17.From business growth, we will all benefit. Businesses taking on more
:41:18. > :41:23.staff, businesses investing in training. Businesses taking on more
:41:24. > :41:29.premises and all that stuff. Can a minister not shout about th`t? No, I
:41:30. > :41:32.don't think so. I think this should be business lead.
:41:33. > :41:36.Ed Miliband, what he is doing is addressing a problem that hd was
:41:37. > :41:38.partly to blame for. He is trying to answer it with yesterday 's
:41:39. > :41:41.solutions. The Region Development Agency specifically tasked with
:41:42. > :41:51.trying to even out divisions between North and South and it faildd
:41:52. > :41:57.miserably. The Conservatives have encouraged business and that is
:41:58. > :42:01.where growth comes from. He is proposing ?20 billion to be passed
:42:02. > :42:06.on to town halls and authorhties in the regions. That would surdly be
:42:07. > :42:08.welcomed. I think it's bettdr to increase... Instead of incrdasing
:42:09. > :42:11.taxes, it is better to encotrage business, because that is where the
:42:12. > :42:15.growth comes from. The Government has been very practical abott this.
:42:16. > :42:21.What they have done is work with business to remove regulations, to
:42:22. > :42:24.lower taxes. For example, jtst this week we have seen the introduction
:42:25. > :42:27.of a ?2000 saving for emploxers in national insurance. Words are cheap,
:42:28. > :42:31.that is the other problem. The Government has promised this, but
:42:32. > :42:34.not delivered. By saying we have a Regional Minister, that is `
:42:35. > :42:37.promise, a commitment to how we will make that delivery. Politichans have
:42:38. > :42:40.made plenty of commitments, but carry on. This is important, but the
:42:41. > :42:44.fact is that the inward invdstment in the Business Department, they can
:42:45. > :42:55.meet all their targets by staying within the M25. It is not strprising
:42:56. > :42:59.that they don't. They should champion business in the North, as
:43:00. > :43:02.Nick Brown did. To champion business, we need a Regional
:43:03. > :43:09.Minister and we also need a strong voice. Not at all, you champion
:43:10. > :43:13.business by working with businesses to see how you can encouragd them,
:43:14. > :43:19.how you can provide the right conditions. They don't do that in
:43:20. > :43:22.Whitehall. I think it is not true. We have had the red tape
:43:23. > :43:25.challenges. 800 regulations being scrapped, a further 3000 re`dy to
:43:26. > :43:28.go. Just recently, the wastd transfer notices, that was 23
:43:29. > :43:32.million bits of paper every year to be produced and to be stored and it
:43:33. > :43:38.has been scrapped ` now a shmplified online system. It makes bushness
:43:39. > :43:40.more profitable. Very briefly. Businesses need investment `nd
:43:41. > :43:44.support, deregulation is grdat, but to get businesses going we need to
:43:45. > :43:50.have the banks lending and people being championed.
:43:51. > :43:55.OK. And a Regional Minister does not solve that. We won't agree on that.
:43:56. > :43:59.Now, councils are up against it we know that, with millions of pounds
:44:00. > :44:02.of savings to be made. So it's perhaps no surprise that in Cumbria
:44:03. > :44:05.the County Council has decided to introduce on`street car parking
:44:06. > :44:07.charges. It's unpopular, but it s an attempt to raise vital cash to keep
:44:08. > :44:22.services running. A week in and it is already proving
:44:23. > :44:26.a popular policy. I was elated, I did not know it was
:44:27. > :44:33.free, so went to put the money in and I saw the cover was on. Really
:44:34. > :44:38.good. Wonderful. Very welcole. I hope it attracts visitors. We have
:44:39. > :44:41.only just discovered it tod`y. We came from Liverpool yesterd`y, so we
:44:42. > :44:46.were delighted. Local traders are hoping it will boost business.
:44:47. > :44:51.Retail is very difficult at the moment. We need more people. We have
:44:52. > :45:01.to wait and see ` see what sort of results we get. Free parking will
:45:02. > :45:10.cost the County Council mord than ?2 million. It has not been rolled out
:45:11. > :45:13.everywhere. Six parish councils are going to carry on charging `s they
:45:14. > :45:16.say it helps with traffic management. The County Council says
:45:17. > :45:19.free parking will bring bendfits. We have looked at the circumst`nces in
:45:20. > :45:22.our county, Northumberland, and we think that this may be a solution
:45:23. > :45:25.for businesses through the recession, as well as maint`ining
:45:26. > :45:29.viable High Streets for the residents to use. I hope it works.
:45:30. > :45:36.If not, we will go to the drawing board. Over the border in Ctmbria,
:45:37. > :45:39.the tide is turning the othdr way. After years of free on`stredt
:45:40. > :45:46.parking, the county council's bringing in charges. Due to the
:45:47. > :45:49.austerity measures, the budget cuts, unprecedented cuts that councils are
:45:50. > :45:57.facing, we are just hoping to recover costs, not to make loney,
:45:58. > :46:01.we're just recovering costs. The changes aren't welcome. Not
:46:02. > :46:05.impressed. As a businessman in the town, I have a business down the
:46:06. > :46:12.street, it is just trying to get more money out of the gener`l
:46:13. > :46:19.public. I think it will put people off coming in. If you just need to
:46:20. > :46:22.nip in and nip to the bank, you will think twice. The arguments for and
:46:23. > :46:25.against charging for parking seemed compelling, whether it is town
:46:26. > :46:28.centre recovery or council budget balancing. In a year's time, Cumbria
:46:29. > :46:41.or Northumberland could be rueing their decision.
:46:42. > :46:46.Cutting parking charges, elhminating them, is this something you have
:46:47. > :46:51.considered? Is it something that should be considered? When the
:46:52. > :46:56.Conservatives were in chargd, we introduced two hours of fred
:46:57. > :46:59.parking. We felt that was a welcome contribution to encouraging people
:47:00. > :47:05.to come into the town to have a look around and have a coughing. I think
:47:06. > :47:08.that is important. As counchls are now looking at other measurds and
:47:09. > :47:12.Northumberland is an interesting example, I think the situathon
:47:13. > :47:17.should be reviewed. Having worked in small businesses, I know how
:47:18. > :47:26.important it is. If you havd free parking, that is often raisdd. I
:47:27. > :47:29.think it is concerning, but a suggestion that was suggestdd at the
:47:30. > :47:36.last council meeting that wd should follow Northumberland's lead was
:47:37. > :47:41.treated with derision. Councils don't have the money. The rdason
:47:42. > :47:44.that grants are being produced is that the Government is trying to
:47:45. > :47:51.sort out the financial mess that the Labour left us. So councils cannot
:47:52. > :47:55.do anything about it. SUNY to manage your resources better. We h`ve
:47:56. > :47:59.introduced share services whth Northumberland. `` you need to.
:48:00. > :48:07.Could you see this happening in Newcastle? Just to say that the
:48:08. > :48:10.Northern councils are being cut disproportionately in comparison
:48:11. > :48:17.with ones in the South. But I think it is important is to get the
:48:18. > :48:21.balance right. Alive after five initiative is all about encouraging
:48:22. > :48:28.people into the city at night to shop, to increase the econoly. But
:48:29. > :48:36.you are competing with the Letro Centre. That is right. And Newcastle
:48:37. > :48:42.has other attractions, as wdll, and it has Eldon Square which h`s the
:48:43. > :48:48.highest football in the country outside London. It is important to
:48:49. > :48:55.get the balance right. Is the balance right at the moment? I get a
:48:56. > :48:59.lot of complaints from constituents about parking, particularly parking
:49:00. > :49:03.at the weekend, whether charges remain the same. I think it is
:49:04. > :49:09.important is to keep the situation under review. I will be raising this
:49:10. > :49:15.as an issue with the council. But I think we do have the balancd more or
:49:16. > :49:19.less right, I hope we can dhscuss ways going forward, not with the
:49:20. > :49:23.pressure... Not because of cost saving or because we don't have the
:49:24. > :49:27.money, but because it is important for the local economy and it is
:49:28. > :49:32.important for encouraging ptblic transport. Now, campaigning has
:49:33. > :49:36.begun for the European elections in May, and first out of the blocks
:49:37. > :49:38.this week were the Liberal Democrats. Their party preshdent and
:49:39. > :49:42.Cumbrian MP Tim Farron was hn Newcastle on Wednesday to l`unch the
:49:43. > :49:45.campaign. But perhaps their keenness to get out there might be connected
:49:46. > :49:49.with the struggle they might have to retain their existing seat hn the
:49:50. > :49:53.North East. I put it to Tim Farron that this was all about dam`ge
:49:54. > :49:56.limitation. They are a funny thing this time.
:49:57. > :50:00.The European elections, the first time in living memory they `re about
:50:01. > :50:03.Europe and the choice the pdople have is very clear. UKIP, for all
:50:04. > :50:07.that I think they are wrong and risking the 150,000 jobs in the
:50:08. > :50:10.North East that depend on Etrope, nevertheless they have a cldar
:50:11. > :50:14.position. If you want to le`ve the European Union, you vote UKHP. If
:50:15. > :50:17.however you think those jobs are worth fighting for, and Britain s
:50:18. > :50:21.role in the world is worth fighting for, and the peace and security is
:50:22. > :50:26.worth fighting for, there's only one party that is party of in. This is a
:50:27. > :50:32.two horse race in many ways` if you vote Labour or Tory, your vote will
:50:33. > :50:35.be wasted. You would like to think that, but the polls suggest that
:50:36. > :50:41.most people don't agree with you and they won't vote Liberal Democrat. We
:50:42. > :50:44.saw the polls after the Nick Clegg and Nigel Farage contest, and I
:50:45. > :50:49.thought our guy won, but thd majority of people felt that they
:50:50. > :50:54.supported the other guy. We know that we have picked the unpopular
:50:55. > :51:02.argument in this contest. That is your problem, isn't it? People are
:51:03. > :51:05.sceptical. People are hostile to it. Correct. I think people are
:51:06. > :51:09.undecided about the European Union and whether our place is in it. But
:51:10. > :51:12.others think, hang about, the EU is not perfect, there is a lot wrong
:51:13. > :51:16.with it, but the world outshde is dangerous and not least dangerous
:51:17. > :51:20.for our jobs here in the North of England. So Nick showed real bravery
:51:21. > :51:23.by taking the unpopular sidd of the argument and nevertheless one in
:51:24. > :51:27.three people agree with Nick on that issue and that is all we nedd to
:51:28. > :51:31.retain our seats. We will sde if you are right about voters' intdntions,
:51:32. > :51:33.you know that a lot of your colleagues have lost their seats,
:51:34. > :51:38.they have lost their seats hn Newcastle. How long can that keep
:51:39. > :51:41.happening and you can justify being in coalition? We were at Grdy's
:51:42. > :51:52.Monument, celebrating a gre`t Liberal Prime Minister. In 0900 it
:51:53. > :51:56.was the last time that therd was a Liberal Democrat midterm, so we know
:51:57. > :52:03.we knew were in Government, it's a hard thing to do to defend council
:52:04. > :52:07.seat up and down the countrx. Here in Newcastle, we have disappointing
:52:08. > :52:12.results in 2011, good results in 2012. There is clear progress. We're
:52:13. > :52:16.expecting to defend what we've got, to begin and my confidence
:52:17. > :52:20.prediction is that before this decade is out, the Liberal Democrats
:52:21. > :52:24.will regain control of Newc`stle City Council. There is a cldar
:52:25. > :52:29.message across the North East, slightly different to the Etropean
:52:30. > :52:32.elections, there is an uneldcted monolith that controls peoples
:52:33. > :52:35.lives, it is not Europe, is the Labour Party.
:52:36. > :52:38.Cumbrian MP Tim Farron. And we'll be speaking to European election
:52:39. > :52:41.candidates from all the main parties on the programme next month.
:52:42. > :52:44.Now, staying with voting and when Scotland goes to the polls hn
:52:45. > :52:48.September to decide whether to go independent, 16 and 17`year`olds
:52:49. > :52:50.will for the first time be `ble to cast a vote.
:52:51. > :52:54.And that means the referendtm is a hot topic in school classroom on the
:52:55. > :52:57.Borders where some teenage pupils will be voting, while friends living
:52:58. > :53:03.in England have no say. Davhd Rhodes reports.
:53:04. > :53:07.800 pupils go to the school, the majority live in England. A small
:53:08. > :53:10.number cross every day. That means that some 16 and 17`year`olds here
:53:11. > :53:16.will make history in September by casting a vote in the Scotthsh
:53:17. > :53:20.independence referendum. Yasmin lives in Coldstream and is one of
:53:21. > :53:25.those having her say on Scotland's future. I will probably be voting no
:53:26. > :53:28.because of the fact that I don't think that the country has dnough
:53:29. > :53:36.information. Information on what they plan to do if they do get
:53:37. > :53:39.independence. Alanis, who is also 17, lives in Berwick. Her f`mily
:53:40. > :53:50.comes from Glasgow, but livhng in England means she does not get a
:53:51. > :53:54.vote. About half of us do, `nd half of us don't. It makes is
:53:55. > :53:58.frustrating, because it will have as much of an impact on us as them
:53:59. > :54:01.Will giving 16 and 17`year`olds a vote in the referendum encotrage
:54:02. > :54:06.teenagers to get more involved in politics? I think the reason why
:54:07. > :54:09.many young people don't havd that much interest in politics or who is
:54:10. > :54:18.in charge of them, basicallx, is because of the fact that parties do
:54:19. > :54:22.not reach out to us young pdople. The Government has no plans to give
:54:23. > :54:24.under 18s the vote in next xear s general election. If a future
:54:25. > :54:28.Government took that step, the headteacher here is not convinced
:54:29. > :54:32.there will be much impact. H think there is a tendency for young people
:54:33. > :54:38.to be very influenced by thdir parents and their parents'
:54:39. > :54:46.politics. As people get olddr, they are influenced by a much grdater
:54:47. > :54:49.collection of ideas. So if the voting age was lowered, you don t
:54:50. > :54:53.think it would make a difference? I think there is a danger it just
:54:54. > :54:56.becomes an extra vote for their parentss. Whatever the outcome, one
:54:57. > :54:59.thing is certain, Yasmin and teenagers like her will plax their
:55:00. > :55:07.role in deciding whether a 300`year`old political union should
:55:08. > :55:14.be maintained. Scotland has given its 16`ydar`olds
:55:15. > :55:20.the chance to vote, should we? Absolutely. If we are in power, we
:55:21. > :55:23.would give 16 and 17`year`olds the right to vote. I was in a school in
:55:24. > :55:29.my constituency on Friday t`lking to 16 and 17 and 18`year`olds, and they
:55:30. > :55:35.are looking at complex formtlas studying history and doing lany
:55:36. > :55:42.challenging topics. They can pay taxes, they can work, so thdy
:55:43. > :55:49.deserve, I think, they have good articulate voices, and they deserve
:55:50. > :55:53.the right to express them. @lso if it is part of school would heighten
:55:54. > :56:00.citizenship training, it is an opportunity to show the importance
:56:01. > :56:07.of voting. Do you agree or other concerns about whether they are
:56:08. > :56:11.mature enough? My personal view is that it is too young. You c`nnot buy
:56:12. > :56:18.cigarettes or alcohol, I thhnk it is too young. But what is important is
:56:19. > :56:24.that we do explain carefullx to school students how local
:56:25. > :56:31.institutions work. How Parlhament works. I think it is a great pity
:56:32. > :56:36.that there are not groups of young socialists and Young Conservatives
:56:37. > :56:43.when I was young. There may be if you gave them the vote. We did not
:56:44. > :56:45.have the vote and we had th`t. It is important for children to gdt
:56:46. > :56:52.involved in debating and thhngs like that. A lot of petitions ard only
:56:53. > :56:56.entered by people in the independent sector. `` competitions. It is an
:56:57. > :57:02.opportunity to get people to stand up for their views and incrdase
:57:03. > :57:06.their confidence. Giving thd vote is one thing, but a lot would say that
:57:07. > :57:13.politicians don't listen to young people. You are right there. Having
:57:14. > :57:19.the vote is one way of making sure that politicians listen to what the
:57:20. > :57:24.voters are saying. But it is true and I agree that politicians also
:57:25. > :57:27.need to engage more with yotng people on the issues that mdan
:57:28. > :57:34.something to young people. Where I don't agree is that young pdople
:57:35. > :57:39.cannot smoke or buy alcohol, that is dangerous, those are harmful, but
:57:40. > :57:45.democracy is not harmful, it is empowering, liberating and so giving
:57:46. > :57:51.them the voice to ensure th`t they get the attention of politicians
:57:52. > :57:55.should empower young people. And maybe renew our democracy which has
:57:56. > :58:00.many issues with it at the loment. Given that young people with the
:58:01. > :58:04.vote do not have a particul`rly high turnout, I don't think how xou will
:58:05. > :58:07.improve that by lowering thd age to 16.
:58:08. > :58:11.Now, for a look at the rest of the week's news and of all the lany cuts
:58:12. > :58:13.councils have made, shutting care homes must be among the most
:58:14. > :58:16.contentious, especially for the elderly residents and their
:58:17. > :58:20.families. It's an issue which has come up again this week in County
:58:21. > :58:27.Durham. Here's more on that, and the rest of the week's news in 60
:58:28. > :58:31.seconds. The new look seafront at Whhtley Bay
:58:32. > :58:34.has been opened by an MP. It was paid for in part by the
:58:35. > :58:41.Government's coastal communhties fund. Durham Council is to close its
:58:42. > :58:47.five remaining care homes, ht says they will cost more than ?4 million
:58:48. > :58:52.to renovate. The MP for South Shields has challenged the Prime
:58:53. > :58:55.Minister on the right of a disabled constituent. You'll my constituent
:58:56. > :59:00.suffers from MEF has been w`iting over nine months for her personal
:59:01. > :59:04.independence payments. She now has to borrow from her 84`year`old
:59:05. > :59:09.mother to get by. Why does the Prime Minister think this is acceptable?
:59:10. > :59:14.Or delays in these payments are not acceptable and we have to m`ke sure
:59:15. > :59:17.that benefits are paid on thme. Finally, ?57 million, that hs how
:59:18. > :59:20.much North East firms are gdtting in the latest round of the govdrnor
:59:21. > :59:28.to's growth fund, more than any other region in the country.
:59:29. > :59:34.And, finally, you can rest dasy this afternoon. The leader of thd SNP
:59:35. > :59:36.Alex Salmond has ruled out `ny intention to annexe Cumbria and
:59:37. > :59:39.Northumberland. The question of Scotland's territorial ambitions was
:59:40. > :59:44.raised by a reporter during a Wall Street Journal press conferdnce in
:59:45. > :59:47.New York. There are some northern England
:59:48. > :59:52.counties that don't feel a lot of love from London. Places like
:59:53. > :59:59.Cumbria and Northumberland. Would you take them into Scotland? We have
:00:00. > :00:08.gone from fragmentation to expansion. Actually, the botndaries
:00:09. > :00:12.of Scotland and England which were disputed in the middle ages are
:00:13. > :00:17.actually long`standing boundaries just about on her. `` the most. I
:00:18. > :00:23.have no territorial demands So the invasion is off, that's a
:00:24. > :00:26.relief. Which means we can safely go off on our Easter break. We'll
:00:27. > :00:30.return here on BBC One on M`y fourth. I'll still be standhng guard
:00:31. > :00:34.though so don't forget I'm on Twitter if you want to keep up with
:00:35. > :00:37.what's going on back now to Andrew for the rest of the show.
:00:38. > :00:47.risk. We have run out of time. - particular candidates. Back to you,
:00:48. > :00:50.Andrew. The sun's out, Ed Balls has run the
:00:51. > :00:53.London Marathon, and MPs leave Westminster for their Easter break.
:00:54. > :01:04.Let's discuss what's coming up in the Week Ahead.
:01:05. > :01:08.We will get more of what we have just seen. Let's look back on the
:01:09. > :01:13.debate. What did we learn from the argument is? That it is going to
:01:14. > :01:18.bore and irritate whole lot of people, this election campaign. Four
:01:19. > :01:21.parties shouting at each other about things that most people do not know
:01:22. > :01:26.much about. They know very little about how the European Parliament
:01:27. > :01:34.works, what an MEP is supposed to do. A lot of heat and not a lot of
:01:35. > :01:38.light. I've updated well, all of them, but the net effect is not
:01:39. > :01:45.going to encourage people to go out and vote and not many do. One thing
:01:46. > :01:50.that struck me was that on Europe, the Labour and Lib Dem positions are
:01:51. > :01:55.not that far apart. They are pretty much the same. And yet the knocks
:01:56. > :01:58.lots of each other. I suppose they feel that they had to do that
:01:59. > :02:04.because that is the format. I'd agree with Polly. Their word UKIP
:02:05. > :02:10.and the Tories to attack two we try to make it exciting, and we know the
:02:11. > :02:14.issues are important. But people out there have not heard of these
:02:15. > :02:17.individuals. It is not very exciting. That is worrying because
:02:18. > :02:22.these are huge national questions for us. We need to find a way of
:02:23. > :02:29.making it more fun. People may not know these MEPs, they may not know
:02:30. > :02:32.the detail of the debate, but it is an issue on which people have strong
:02:33. > :02:36.opinions. It is a visceral thing for many people. Especially on the
:02:37. > :02:43.immigration issue. The debate took off and became more vociferous at
:02:44. > :02:47.that point. To a large extent, you wonder whether not only this
:02:48. > :02:50.European election but the eventual referendum will be a referendum on
:02:51. > :02:54.the issue of immigration and free movement. If we did not learn much
:02:55. > :02:57.from the argument, the thing we did learn is that the structure of these
:02:58. > :03:04.televised debate influences the outcome. One of the reasons that
:03:05. > :03:11.Nigel Farage did well in the debate is that in a two-man debate, each
:03:12. > :03:15.man has as good a chance as the other. If it is four people, one man
:03:16. > :03:21.can be ganged up on. Patrick O'Flynn did well for a man who is not an
:03:22. > :03:24.elected politician yet. At times, 40 came under attack and did not hold
:03:25. > :03:28.the line as well as you would expect. Does that create a perverse
:03:29. > :03:33.incentive for the main parties to agree to a four way debate before
:03:34. > :03:36.the general election? I do not think the David Cameron has nearly as much
:03:37. > :03:40.to worry about from a televised debate in the run-up to the
:03:41. > :03:44.elections than his spin doctors believe. When you put him up against
:03:45. > :03:47.Ed Miliband, and we have not actually seen Ed Miliband in that
:03:48. > :03:55.format, I think he will come off all right. This is an election which the
:03:56. > :04:01.polls would have us believe that the battle for first place is between
:04:02. > :04:04.UKIP and labour. It certainly is. Obviously, it is neck and neck and
:04:05. > :04:09.we will not know until we are closer. And it matters a lot to both
:04:10. > :04:13.of them. If Mr Miliband does not come first, that is not good news
:04:14. > :04:20.for the main opposition at this stage. Except to some extent all of
:04:21. > :04:25.the people will put it to one side and say that this is a bizarre
:04:26. > :04:29.election. A plague on both your houses, let's vote UKIP. It is not
:04:30. > :04:34.clear how much that translates into the next election. It is not too
:04:35. > :04:41.disastrous for Labour. It would be better if they came first. If Mr
:04:42. > :04:47.Miliband comes first, not a problem, but it becomes second and UKIP soars
:04:48. > :04:49.away, what are the consequences I think there is a widespread
:04:50. > :04:56.expectation already at Westminster that UKIP is very likely to come
:04:57. > :04:58.first. If Ed Miliband fails to come first, there will not be a great
:04:59. > :05:02.deal of shock in the West Mr village. Else think what is
:05:03. > :05:07.remarkable about Ed Miliband is that despite consistently poor personal
:05:08. > :05:14.leadership approval ratings, the overall Labour poll is consistently
:05:15. > :05:18.very high. We have seen that budget blip, it seems to have taken us back
:05:19. > :05:23.to where we were before. Leadership is not everything. Mrs Thatcher was
:05:24. > :05:29.miles behind James Callaghan but in the end, it was the party politics
:05:30. > :05:34.that mattered more. If Mr Cameron comes third and the Tories come
:05:35. > :05:38.third, maybe a poor third, is it headless chicken time on the Tory
:05:39. > :05:42.backbenchers? It has often been said that the Tory Party has two modes,
:05:43. > :05:51.complacency and panic. You will see them shift into panic mode. By June,
:05:52. > :05:53.I think. Many of the stories in the sun will be about David Cameron s
:05:54. > :05:57.personal leadership and his grip on the party. There will be pressure on
:05:58. > :06:03.conference by the time that comes around. It is a natural consequence
:06:04. > :06:10.of being the incumbent party. The Lib Dems are 7% in two of the polls
:06:11. > :06:15.today. It was widely thought that in the first and second debates, Nigel
:06:16. > :06:22.Farage won both. In retrospect, was the challenge strategy a disaster
:06:23. > :06:26.for Mr Clegg? I do not think it was because he had nothing to lose. But
:06:27. > :06:32.he is lower in the polls than when he started. He has not lost a great
:06:33. > :06:38.deal. The polls were quite often that low. I think it was a good
:06:39. > :06:43.thing to do. It raised his profile. It made him the leading party in.
:06:44. > :06:50.That may be a difficult place to be. That is how you end up with 7%
:06:51. > :06:52.in the polls. The reason he is fighting with Labour is that he
:06:53. > :06:56.knows very well that all he has to do is to get his votes back that
:06:57. > :07:02.have gone to Labour and labour have to fight hard to make sure that they
:07:03. > :07:07.do not go back. Every party looks to where it is going to get it
:07:08. > :07:11.support. If it is a wipe-out for the Lib Dems, and they lose all their
:07:12. > :07:18.MEPs, not saying that is going to happen but you could not rule it out
:07:19. > :07:21.for, are we back in Nick Clegg leadership crisis territory? One of
:07:22. > :07:25.the astonishing things about this Parliament is the relative absence
:07:26. > :07:28.of leadership speculation about Nick Clegg will stop at the first couple
:07:29. > :07:33.of years, his position seems tricky, but maybe that is because
:07:34. > :07:36.Chris Hughton is gone and he was the only plausible candidate. This cable
:07:37. > :07:41.is not getting any younger, to put it delicately. That was not delegate
:07:42. > :07:44.at all! And we have reached a desperate stage where Danny
:07:45. > :07:47.Alexander is talked about as a candidate. That was not delegate
:07:48. > :07:53.either! Maybe he is holding onto power the lack of alternatives. If
:07:54. > :08:00.they ended up with no MEPs at all, and a less than double digits
:08:01. > :08:03.score... With Danny Alexander, it is clear that Scotland, one way or
:08:04. > :08:09.another, will be moving further away. You could not have the leader
:08:10. > :08:14.of a national party be a Scot. But he does not have the following in
:08:15. > :08:17.the party. I'm glad you're liberal attitudes to immigration extends to
:08:18. > :08:23.me. I would not have been here for 43 years. There will be leadership
:08:24. > :08:28.talk after that holes. It has been bubbling in the background, but you
:08:29. > :08:34.have to talk to the grass roots activists. -- after the polls. The
:08:35. > :08:38.grass roots activists are despairing. If things are bad, they
:08:39. > :08:42.lose their network of activists who they need to fight the next
:08:43. > :08:45.election. I think you mean, not that you could have a Scot, but that it
:08:46. > :08:52.would be more difficult to have a Scot from a Scottish constituency.
:08:53. > :08:56.Absolutely. I think a Scottish constituency, so many things will be
:08:57. > :09:01.different. Or to hold the great offices of state. Let's come onto
:09:02. > :09:06.the Crown Prosecution Service is. It is an English institution. Where
:09:07. > :09:10.does the CPS and after losing yet another high-profile case come this
:09:11. > :09:14.time Nigel Evans? They had nine counts against him and they did not
:09:15. > :09:20.win on one. It is obviously very embarrassing. They will have a bit
:09:21. > :09:24.of explain to do but I guess the threshold for bringing these cases
:09:25. > :09:30.is high. There has to be considered at least a 50-50 chance of actually
:09:31. > :09:33.winning the case. We do not know what went on behind the scenes when
:09:34. > :09:36.they weighed up whether to bring the case. Nigel Evans makes an
:09:37. > :09:40.interesting point about whether it is legitimate to bundle together a
:09:41. > :09:46.number of stand-alone relatively weak accusations, and when you put
:09:47. > :09:52.them together to militantly, the CPS uses that to make a case. Is that a
:09:53. > :09:55.legitimate thing to do? He was a high-profile figure, not just
:09:56. > :10:03.because he was a Tory MP. He was the deputy speaker of the House. And yet
:10:04. > :10:08.the CPS are certainly the police, to begin with they did not have that
:10:09. > :10:11.many people to testify against him. And then they trawled for more. You
:10:12. > :10:15.wonder if they would have done that if it was not for the fact that he
:10:16. > :10:18.was a public figure. The trouble is, they are dammed if they do and
:10:19. > :10:21.dammed if they do not. Particularly with politicians and the reputation
:10:22. > :10:25.they have these days, if there is any suggestion that they let
:10:26. > :10:29.somebody off because they are a high-profile politician, and they
:10:30. > :10:34.are saying that about Cyril Smith, that is the accusation. A strange
:10:35. > :10:38.story. Most unlikely and very bizarre. But that is the accusation.
:10:39. > :10:45.If there is any with of that, I can see why the CPS says, we better let
:10:46. > :10:48.the courts try this one. Also, they are in trouble overrated cases
:10:49. > :10:56.because their success rate on bringing people to court for rape is
:10:57. > :10:58.so thin. When it looked as if his accusers were not really accusing
:10:59. > :11:04.him, it looks quite weak. You cannot help but feeling that they are
:11:05. > :11:06.falling over backwards now in high-profile cases because of their
:11:07. > :11:11.abject and total failure over Jimmy Savile. I think this is exactly the
:11:12. > :11:16.kind of case that happens when you are trying to make a point or redeem
:11:17. > :11:20.a reputation or change a culture. All of these big things. As opposed
:11:21. > :11:23.to what criminal justice is supposed to be about, which is specific
:11:24. > :11:27.crimes and specific evidence matching those crimes. The CPS has
:11:28. > :11:31.no copper a fleet joined in this list of public and situations that
:11:32. > :11:34.has taken a fall over the past five or six years. We have had
:11:35. > :11:37.Parliament, the newspapers, the police will stop I think this is as
:11:38. > :11:41.bad a humiliation as any of those because it is Innocent people
:11:42. > :11:44.suffering. You are the most recent, being a lobby correspondent in
:11:45. > :11:48.Westminster, and we now see on Channel 4 News that basically,
:11:49. > :11:55.Westminster is twinned with Sodom and Gomorrah. Yes. I know. Is this
:11:56. > :11:59.true? It is all rather the red. I do not move in those circles. And you
:12:00. > :12:05.were in the lobby at one stage? Not that long ago. Is it right. Is it
:12:06. > :12:09.right to be twinned with Sodom and Gomorrah? I'll ask him for his
:12:10. > :12:16.opinion. Being technically a member of the lobby, I can observe some of
:12:17. > :12:21.this stuff. And what surprises me is that journalists, when the complain
:12:22. > :12:24.about Sodom and Gomorrah, write themselves out of it. It is as if it
:12:25. > :12:30.is just MPs. We are unalloyed and unvarnished. Actually, the fact is
:12:31. > :12:34.it has always been a bit like Sodom and tomorrow. Of course it has.
:12:35. > :12:37.Think about how we have had wave after wave of stories and scandals.
:12:38. > :12:43.But less of it recently. It was I think that attitudes have slightly
:12:44. > :12:49.changed. I'll also think that if you get 650 people in any organisation
:12:50. > :12:53.and you put that much scrutiny on them, you will find an awful lot
:12:54. > :12:57.going on in most people's officers of a scurrilous nature. Even in the
:12:58. > :14:01.BBC In 2013, the public voted for
:14:02. > :14:03.a portrait of At times he's interesting,
:14:04. > :14:13.at times he's very funny,