:00:37. > :00:43.Well, this is the closest I'll get to Rio.
:00:44. > :00:48.The advance of the Islamist army on Baghdad has been slowed.
:00:49. > :00:50.The Iraqi army claims the fightback has begun.
:00:51. > :00:52.But the country now faces a de facto partition.
:00:53. > :00:55.What should Britain, Europe, or the US be doing - if anything?
:00:56. > :00:58.It's been a big week in the Scottish referendum.
:00:59. > :01:02.But has the tone of the debate become too downright nasty?
:01:03. > :01:10.Both sides join us to go head to head.
:01:11. > :01:13.I will swap Ed Miliband for Tim Farren. What is the significance of
:01:14. > :01:15.that? In the North East and Cumbrha:
:01:16. > :01:21.even Westminster, we'll be asking The Conservatives try to broaden
:01:22. > :01:24.their appeal in the North. And the Government promised free
:01:25. > :01:26.schools meals in September, but this Cumbrian school dods not
:01:27. > :01:31.even have a kitchen. In London, why the minority vote one
:01:32. > :01:32.recent elections Labour, but recent support amongst people is bigger
:01:33. > :01:43.than assumed. The Sunni Islamist army known
:01:44. > :01:46.as ISIS is now in control of huge swathes of northern
:01:47. > :01:48.and western Iraq, including Until the weekend they looked
:01:49. > :01:52.like advancing relentlessly on Baghdad but that offensive has
:01:53. > :01:54.now been slowed or even halted The Iraqi army
:01:55. > :01:59.and its Shia milita allies vow that Baghdad will not be taken and that
:02:00. > :02:06.a counter-attack will soon begin. Iraq's Shia Prime Minister Nouri
:02:07. > :02:08.al-Maliki has to do something to reverse the humiliation
:02:09. > :02:10.of recent days, which saw his US-trained and equipped Iraqi
:02:11. > :02:16.army, which outnumbered the Islamists 15 to 1 melt away or
:02:17. > :02:20.surrender when confronted by ISIS. The conflict has already created a
:02:21. > :02:22.humanitarian crisis, with hundreds The Kurds have used the conflict to
:02:23. > :02:32.consolidate their hold on their autonomous area in the north, parts
:02:33. > :02:36.of the west and the north are in the grip of ISIS control and the Shias
:02:37. > :02:39.are hunkering down in the east. All of which makes a three-way
:02:40. > :02:41.partition a real possibility with The US is moving another
:02:42. > :02:46.of its massive aircraft carrier battlefleets to the Gulf,
:02:47. > :02:48.though the White House shows no While Iran says it's ready to help
:02:49. > :02:53.its Shia allies and there are unconfoirmed reports
:02:54. > :02:55.that its revolutionary guard has Well, I'm joined now by Newsnight's
:02:56. > :03:14.diplomatic editor Mark Urban. Let's start with some basics. Who
:03:15. > :03:21.are ISIS and why are they controlling big chunks of Iraq? ISIS
:03:22. > :03:25.is an extremist militant jihad organisation and they have a pure
:03:26. > :03:29.Islamic concept based on 14th century history and jurisprudence.
:03:30. > :03:36.What they want to do is correct -- create this caliphate that do not
:03:37. > :03:39.recognise colonial boundaries so it involves Syria and Iraq, and they
:03:40. > :03:42.could go down to Lebanon and Palestine, that is all fair game as
:03:43. > :03:47.far as they are concerned. And they have this strict interpretation of
:03:48. > :03:53.Islam. The more interesting question is why have semi-Sunni Muslims,
:03:54. > :03:58.along with them, these are precisely the sort of people who in 2006,
:03:59. > :04:02.2007, tribal leaders in the west of the country rose up against. It was
:04:03. > :04:07.called the Awakening and the Americans in power did and
:04:08. > :04:12.bankrolled it. These people turned against them and admired them in
:04:13. > :04:15.large numbers, so why do they have so many Sunni Muslims on their
:04:16. > :04:18.side? We hear about people going back to Mosul. I think the answer is
:04:19. > :04:21.a perception back to Mosul. I think the answer
:04:22. > :04:25.that the current government is ruling in sectarian interests, Shia
:04:26. > :04:28.Muslim interest, and the Sunni Muslims want self-determination and
:04:29. > :04:32.this is their best bet. Muslims want self-determination and
:04:33. > :04:35.this is their Let me put up this map to find out where we are going. We
:04:36. > :04:40.can see Mosul in the north, they took that, and then they started,
:04:41. > :04:49.South, reports that the crit was involved -- to grit -- to grit. What
:04:50. > :04:53.is the situation on the ground now? We are in what you might call a
:04:54. > :05:01.consolidation or strategic pause as American called it in 2003. ISIS are
:05:02. > :05:04.trying to consolidate their power in Mosul, and now they have this major
:05:05. > :05:09.city and they are trying to show they can run the city and get the
:05:10. > :05:12.power going, etc. Their southernmost forces, that is a gorilla army, guys
:05:13. > :05:18.in pick-up trucks. They cannot deal with serious opposition. They would
:05:19. > :05:21.like to get the tanks and other things into action but that could
:05:22. > :05:26.take weeks for them to be able to do it. The government side is that they
:05:27. > :05:30.have counter-attacked, but it will take a little while before these
:05:31. > :05:36.newly raised militia and other task forces, call them what you will can
:05:37. > :05:42.effectively counter-attacked. But that is what will happen in the next
:05:43. > :05:44.week or two. We will see increasingly large and serious
:05:45. > :05:53.government counter-attacked trying to retake those places, and I fear a
:05:54. > :06:00.really difficult, bloody Syrian style street by street battle for
:06:01. > :06:06.some of these urban centres. I would like to have a look at this map
:06:07. > :06:08.because the Kurds, as I mentioned, they are consolidating their
:06:09. > :06:14.position in the autonomous region in the north. The Islamist are taking
:06:15. > :06:20.over huge chunks of the Sunni Muslim West. And of course the Shia Muslim
:06:21. > :06:24.are still dominant in control of Baghdad and in parts of the south
:06:25. > :06:33.and east. Back to me looks like the beginnings of the partition of Iraq.
:06:34. > :06:36.-- back to me. Well, it is, but we have to caveat it in a few ways
:06:37. > :06:42.Firstly, there are millions of people in Iraq, so-called sushi
:06:43. > :06:46.combined families, who do not fit easily into the pattern. Do we see
:06:47. > :06:52.millions of people becoming refugees under this scheme? There would be a
:06:53. > :06:56.lot of human tragedies if people really did try to enforce this type
:06:57. > :07:03.partition. Secondly, there are Sunni Muslim communities in the south of
:07:04. > :07:08.Baghdad, those places, once again, a lot of misery and fighting will
:07:09. > :07:20.occur if people try to enforce a de facto partition. There are still an
:07:21. > :07:26.awakening of forces. They are on the side of the government. We heard
:07:27. > :07:30.about one group in Samarra of Sunni Muslims fighting on the same side.
:07:31. > :07:33.It's a complex picture. They factor, it does look like a partition, and
:07:34. > :07:40.if it goes further in that direction it will. And partition will always
:07:41. > :07:43.be messy because people end up on the wrong side of the lies.
:07:44. > :07:48.Finally, the big thing on that map, Iran, a huge place, a huge border
:07:49. > :07:55.with Shia Muslim Iraq. Iran now becomes a key factor. It is becoming
:07:56. > :07:58.a proxy war for Iran. Yes, when I was in Baghdad a few months ago I
:07:59. > :08:02.did actually see Iranians revolutionary guards in uniform
:08:03. > :08:08.They were protecting a senior Iranians official, so some numbers
:08:09. > :08:13.have been never some time and they are also said to protect the
:08:14. > :08:17.political leaders and -- in his compound. They are there. We think
:08:18. > :08:21.more of them are trying to organise the defence of Baghdad to galvanise
:08:22. > :08:26.the Iraqi army, and they will not allow the Iraqi government to fall.
:08:27. > :08:31.Mark, thank you for marking archive this morning. -- marking our card.
:08:32. > :08:33.Tony Blair took Britain into the Iraq conflict in 2003.
:08:34. > :08:36.He's now, among other things, envoy to the Middle East representing
:08:37. > :08:39.That's the UN, the EU, the US and Russia.
:08:40. > :08:41.This morning he entered the debate about what should be
:08:42. > :08:52.My point is simple. If you left Saddam in place in 2003, when 2 11
:08:53. > :08:58.happened and you have the Arab revolutions going through Tunisia,
:08:59. > :09:03.Libya, Yemen, Bahrain and Egypt and Syria, you would still have had a
:09:04. > :09:06.major problem in Iraq. You can see what happens when you leave the
:09:07. > :09:10.dictator in place, as has happened with Bashar al-Assad. The problem
:09:11. > :09:15.doesn't go away. What I'm trying to say is, we can rerun the debates
:09:16. > :09:19.about 2003, and there are perfectly legitimate points on either side,
:09:20. > :09:22.but where we are in 2014, we have do understand that this is a regional
:09:23. > :09:26.problem, but a problem that will affect us.
:09:27. > :09:29.And I'm joined by the former Foreign Office minister Mark Malloch-Brown,
:09:30. > :09:32.Here in London are James Rubin, he was chief spokesman
:09:33. > :09:34.for the State Department under Bill Clinton, and Bayan Rahman,
:09:35. > :09:47.she represents the Kurdistan Regional government in the UK.
:09:48. > :09:52.Intervened in Iraq, it's a shambles, we don't intervene in Syria, it s a
:09:53. > :09:57.shambles. What lessons should we draw? That is a well framed
:09:58. > :10:01.question, because that is the problem. Tony Blair is half right.
:10:02. > :10:06.Iraq, like Syria, would probably have been a problem even without an
:10:07. > :10:11.intervention. But one wishes someone would tell him to stay quiet during
:10:12. > :10:15.moments like this, because it does drive a great surge of people in the
:10:16. > :10:18.other direction. The fact is, what has been missing in western politics
:10:19. > :10:24.towards the Middle East throughout both episodes, Syria and Iraq, is a
:10:25. > :10:29.drive to build an inclusive, democratic centre which is secular
:10:30. > :10:33.and nonsectarian. That has been missing amongst the threats of
:10:34. > :10:38.invasion Manon invasion, we have just constantly neglected the
:10:39. > :10:43.diplomatic nation-building dimensional this. I want to come
:10:44. > :10:47.onto what is happening on the ground. I want to begin with what
:10:48. > :10:49.the Western response by me, and by that we mean the United States,
:10:50. > :10:54.because of it doesn't do anything, nobody will do anything. All of the
:10:55. > :10:58.signals I see coming out of the White is that Barack Obama has no
:10:59. > :11:02.appetite for intervention -- out of the White House. I don't think he
:11:03. > :11:09.does have an appetite. He would be very unlikely to do anything very
:11:10. > :11:14.large. He might feel pressured to act because of the fact that this
:11:15. > :11:18.particular group, this Al-Qaeda inspired group, fits into the
:11:19. > :11:22.strategy he has pursued in Yemen and Afghanistan and Pakistan, to use
:11:23. > :11:33.drone strikes against individual terrorists. So it is possible that
:11:34. > :11:37.the threat of ISIS in the region and the West in general might inspire
:11:38. > :11:42.him to act, but the idea he will do enough, militarily, to transform
:11:43. > :11:49.Iraq from its current state of civil War into something along the lines
:11:50. > :11:54.that Mark was talking about, nation-building diplomacy, a big
:11:55. > :11:58.operation, I don't see President Obama sees his historic mission as
:11:59. > :12:03.having got the United States as out of it. Leave it to the Pacific,
:12:04. > :12:09.perhaps. What would the Kurds like the West to do? First of all, in
:12:10. > :12:13.Kurdistan we face a huge humanitarian crisis. We already have
:12:14. > :12:16.had bought a quarter of a million Syrian refugees and we were
:12:17. > :12:22.struggling to cope with that. And now we have at least double that
:12:23. > :12:25.number of refugees coming from Mosul. First and foremost, we are
:12:26. > :12:30.calling on the international community to help us with that. So
:12:31. > :12:33.we need humanitarian aid? Let's assume we do that in some way, maybe
:12:34. > :12:38.not enough, but what else if anything? I think it is an incumbent
:12:39. > :12:44.on the west and other powers to assist Iraq to get rid of ISIS. I
:12:45. > :12:51.think the Sunni Arab community, some of whom have joined ISIS and may be
:12:52. > :12:58.supported the uprising, have justified complaints against the
:12:59. > :13:01.federal government. But we need the terrorists out of Iraq. That is
:13:02. > :13:05.first and foremost. And what the West can do is not necessarily
:13:06. > :13:08.intervene with boots on the ground, but provide technical assistance,
:13:09. > :13:14.provide intelligence and help the Iraqi army and air force to be more
:13:15. > :13:22.targeted. Can you defend yourselves? In Kurdistan, we can in terms of the
:13:23. > :13:25.disciplined troops. In this situation, I hope they won't be
:13:26. > :13:30.abandoning their post, that is for sure. It is a national cause fires.
:13:31. > :13:36.But we are not armed in the way that the Iraqi army is -- cause for us.
:13:37. > :13:40.We are not armed in the way that ISIS seems to be now they have
:13:41. > :13:43.seized some of the American kit We are not asking for weapons, but we
:13:44. > :13:48.ask for assistance for all of Iraq to deal with the situation. Mark,
:13:49. > :13:53.this is not just an Iraqi problem. This is a regional conflict, and
:13:54. > :13:57.from the Levant on the shores of the Mediterranean, all the way through
:13:58. > :14:04.to the Gulf, the region is gripped with what is essentially a Sunni and
:14:05. > :14:07.Shia Muslim sectarian war. Yes, with the caveats that Mark bourbon made
:14:08. > :14:11.earlier, it's not quite that straightforward, but the basic
:14:12. > :14:16.divide is exactly that -- Mark Urban. People have been looking for
:14:17. > :14:19.this to begin in Lebanon or Jordan and have been taken by surprise
:14:20. > :14:26.although with hindsight I'm not sure why, that it has begun in Iraq
:14:27. > :14:28.instead. At its most extreme, it risks redrawing the 20th century
:14:29. > :14:33.boundaries of the region in a way which would be highly unstable
:14:34. > :14:38.because it would pit a Shia Muslim bloc against the Sunni Muslim bloc
:14:39. > :14:43.and would undo all of the sort of social and economic advance of the
:14:44. > :14:48.last century, so the stakes are suddenly very, very high indeed Are
:14:49. > :14:54.we seeing the redrawing? The lines were drawn secretly, not far from
:14:55. > :14:58.here, about a mile away, and may have survived through thick and
:14:59. > :15:03.thin. They now look pretty fragile. The map is being redrawn. I think it
:15:04. > :15:10.is true that there is a key factor partition going on -- des facto
:15:11. > :15:17.Woodrow Wilson probably gave a bit of a hand to the promotion of the
:15:18. > :15:20.idea of self-determination, and in a way, there is a self determination
:15:21. > :15:24.going on, particularly in the Kurdish region, and perhaps they may
:15:25. > :15:30.end up the big winners in all of this, because they have proceeded
:15:31. > :15:32.with a relatively moderate, reconcilable government. The key
:15:33. > :15:43.thing that the Kurdish region has done. They used to fight the two
:15:44. > :15:48.groups, and now they fight together. What the Sunni Muslims have not done
:15:49. > :15:56.is figure out how to let politics let the side things instead of guns.
:15:57. > :16:03.We need to look clearly and in Syria and Iraq, if there is a Sunni
:16:04. > :16:08.extremist with ISIS that carves out a place for itself, it will be the
:16:09. > :16:13.great irony of the modern era. President Bush said he wanted to go
:16:14. > :16:20.into Iraq to fight terrorism. There was no terrorist. There are now If
:16:21. > :16:27.in Iraq and Syria together thereat a thousand strong Al-Qaeda capability
:16:28. > :16:29.that threatens the region, the West, the world, we are all going to
:16:30. > :16:57.have to do something about it. The danger is that power will
:16:58. > :17:02.spread. This could grow in power. You would not want it on your
:17:03. > :17:05.southern border. Absolutely, we would not. The point we are all
:17:06. > :17:11.making indirectly is that things have changed in Iraq and will never
:17:12. > :17:14.be the same again. Whether Iraq completely disintegrates into three
:17:15. > :17:16.countries, or whether it stays together as one country, but a
:17:17. > :17:19.countries, or whether it stays together as one country, but loose
:17:20. > :17:25.federation, either way, Iraq has changed. It will not go back to what
:17:26. > :17:29.it was. I hope it will change for the better. I think we're at the
:17:30. > :17:37.make or break point for Iraq. Either the political readers -- the
:17:38. > :17:41.political leaders of a right wake up and smell the coffee and put aside
:17:42. > :17:46.their differences or there will be problems. This provides that
:17:47. > :17:52.opportunity, in a very nasty way. If we take it? Yes, and if not, I think
:17:53. > :18:01.this is the end of a rack as we know it. If anything resembling a
:18:02. > :18:06.caliphate emerges, that is very destabilising for the region itself.
:18:07. > :18:10.More so I would suggest than even the Taliban and Al-Qaeda in
:18:11. > :18:17.Afghanistan. At some stage, you have to assume that they will be coming
:18:18. > :18:27.for us. That is correct. This is extremely dangerous. The only way
:18:28. > :18:32.forward is for these political groups to talk to each other and
:18:33. > :18:36.find a compromise that allows the rates of cinemas and minorities in
:18:37. > :18:39.Iraq to be protected within or the rates of cinemas and minorities in
:18:40. > :18:43.Iraq to be protected with an autonomous federal-state. Any
:18:44. > :18:46.support for the government must be premised on that. There is no
:18:47. > :19:03.military solution for this which is in during -- there is no military
:19:04. > :19:08.solution for this. There must be serious political negotiation, not
:19:09. > :19:11.with ISIS, but with Sunni Muslim moderates, to form a more
:19:12. > :19:17.representative government. This is the last chance for Iraq. I think we
:19:18. > :19:20.are all saying that that is going to need to be some major western
:19:21. > :19:26.leadership to make some big decisions here for the future of the
:19:27. > :19:30.region. I am concerned that after Afghanistan and Iraq, my country is
:19:31. > :19:35.quite world-weary, quite world-weary. It does not seem to be
:19:36. > :19:40.giving leadership. Certainly we are not seeing that in Europe. I am
:19:41. > :19:43.deeply concerned that we are not going to take the leadership role
:19:44. > :19:50.that needs to be taken. These are big issues. When Britain and France
:19:51. > :19:53.carved up the Middle East, they were world powers, operating as global
:19:54. > :19:58.powers, and without that global leadership by somebody, this is just
:19:59. > :20:00.going to get worse and worse. I think we will leave it there, thank
:20:01. > :20:05.you very much. The danger is that power will
:20:06. > :20:10.spread. This could grow in power. It is just under 100 days until the
:20:11. > :20:13.referendum on Scottish independence. So, for once,
:20:14. > :20:15.it'll be a long hot-summer But the campaign isn't
:20:16. > :20:20.just getting heated. In places it's also
:20:21. > :20:22.down-right nasty. When Scotland's best-selling author
:20:23. > :20:24.announced she was giving the unionist cause a million pounds
:20:25. > :20:26.this week, she received Independence supporters online,
:20:27. > :20:34.so-called cybernats, called JK Rowling a traitor
:20:35. > :20:37.and much worse, using a variety of For its part, the Better Together
:20:38. > :20:41.campaign has been accused Even Gordon Brown seems to think so,
:20:42. > :20:44.and this week he criticised Conservative ministers
:20:45. > :20:46.for relying on "threats With the Edinburgh Festival
:20:47. > :20:51.approaching, reports suggest even comedians are now reluctant to
:20:52. > :20:54.engage in the subject because I'm joined by Blair Jenkins from
:20:55. > :21:00.Yes Scotland and Jackie Baillie They're both in our Glasgow studio,
:21:01. > :21:20.and they're going head to head. Blair Jenkins, let me come to you
:21:21. > :21:24.first. Why have you and the Better Together campaign and Alex Salmond
:21:25. > :21:28.not done more to slap down the cyber nationalists who are poisoning the
:21:29. > :21:34.debate? Good morning. I think both sides tried to stop the tiny number
:21:35. > :21:38.of people on both sides who are incapable of controlling
:21:39. > :21:43.themselves. We should not get this out of proportion. We are having a
:21:44. > :21:46.fantastic, decent and democratic debate. The people who probably
:21:47. > :21:50.total no more than 100 on both sides who post offensive material or not
:21:51. > :21:55.to be allowed to deflect from that fact. Of course there are nasty
:21:56. > :21:59.people on the Better Together side as well, but are you saying there
:22:00. > :22:05.are as many of those as the cyber nationalists? I have not done the
:22:06. > :22:10.Kent. Lots of people are certainly posting nasty in defensive things to
:22:11. > :22:15.people in the yes campaigners well. I imagine that people do what I do,
:22:16. > :22:22.and block them. You stop them from sending anything further. There is a
:22:23. > :22:26.democratic and in gauging progress going on throughout Scotland. It is
:22:27. > :22:30.characterised by good humour and good debate. We should not get out
:22:31. > :22:36.of proportion and the activities of the number of people. I want to get
:22:37. > :22:38.to Jackie Baillie. The debate is actually pretty good-humoured and
:22:39. > :22:43.you should be doing more about the nasties on your side as well? I
:22:44. > :22:48.think we have reached a new low this week. Despite many people engaging
:22:49. > :22:54.in the politics of the decision and the debate about that, whether we
:22:55. > :22:58.want to retain the best of both worlds are separate from the United
:22:59. > :23:05.Kingdom, what we have seen is the most abusive and vitriolic attack,
:23:06. > :23:10.particularly on women, JK Rowling and a Labour supporter who dared to
:23:11. > :23:15.support the no campaign. When you look at the number of people on
:23:16. > :23:20.social media, there are more from the yes campaign than the no site.
:23:21. > :23:28.We should all be condemning attacks, from whatever quarter they come
:23:29. > :23:32.This seemed to be connected to the office of the First Minister. What
:23:33. > :23:38.is the evidence for that? There was an e-mail from one of the... I
:23:39. > :23:46.understand about that, but it did not use vile words. It did not, but
:23:47. > :23:51.it repeated the same mistake as on the website. We should be clear that
:23:52. > :23:56.we need to condemn these attacks, but it is not just the water works,
:23:57. > :24:01.it is taking action. There was an IpsosMORI poll this week which was
:24:02. > :24:05.varying testing. It showed the population as a whole, farmer people
:24:06. > :24:10.think that Yes Scotland is running an effective campaign as against
:24:11. > :24:19.Better Together. It is a undecided voters think this by a majority of
:24:20. > :24:23.four 21. Some people are worried about of the campaign. JK Rowling,
:24:24. > :24:29.Scotland's most successful author of all time. She gives ?1 million to
:24:30. > :24:33.the Better Together campaign. She then faces some of the most
:24:34. > :24:41.incredible abuse. I know what it is like because I have had some myself.
:24:42. > :24:46.Traitor, Quisling. I cannot use some of the words, it is Sunday morning.
:24:47. > :24:50.Why does Scottish Nationalists culture have such a revolting
:24:51. > :24:54.fringe? JK Rowling is entitled to our views and it is unacceptable if
:24:55. > :24:59.people say offensive things about her or anyone else who voices and
:25:00. > :25:03.opinion in this debate. Who are obese people? When you look at the
:25:04. > :25:07.accounts of some of the people who were posting these things about JK
:25:08. > :25:11.Rowling, they were using the same sort of language about film stars
:25:12. > :25:18.and football stars. This was just part of their language on Twitter.
:25:19. > :25:26.How often has Alex Salmond condemned the cyber nationalists? Very often.
:25:27. > :25:29.Everyone in the campaign hands. By common consent, Yes Scotland is
:25:30. > :25:35.running a thoroughly positive campaign, much more positive than
:25:36. > :25:40.Better Together. Jackie Baillie it hardly helps matters when Alistair
:25:41. > :25:43.Darling, who runs your campaign compares Alex Salmond to Kim Jong Il
:25:44. > :25:49.and North Korea. That hardly elevates the debate? I think we need
:25:50. > :25:56.to elevate the debate. There are less than a hundred days to go. It
:25:57. > :26:03.is a massive decision. We need to elevate the debate beyond attacks. I
:26:04. > :26:08.think there is much more that Yes Scotland and the SNP can do. You
:26:09. > :26:14.have made that point. Why are you running a campaign based on fear?
:26:15. > :26:21.The codename of your campaign is even project fear. It is threats.
:26:22. > :26:25.You cannot have the pound, there will be no shipbuilding. You will be
:26:26. > :26:31.flooded by immigrants. Why are you so negative? I am not negative at
:26:32. > :26:35.all and neither is the campaign The campaign has asked questions and I
:26:36. > :26:39.think it is legitimate to ask questions of the people proposing
:26:40. > :26:44.such a fundamental change. People care about the economy, their jobs,
:26:45. > :26:50.their families. What would happen to them if they leave the rest of the
:26:51. > :26:52.United Kingdom. I think it is legitimate to ask questions. I
:26:53. > :27:00.refuse to be asked of scaremongering. People deserve
:27:01. > :27:07.answers. The yes campaign is equally guilty of some of the most
:27:08. > :27:13.outrageous scaremongering. Maybe you are both scaremongering. Blair
:27:14. > :27:17.Jenkins, the First Minister said of the cyber nationalists, that they
:27:18. > :27:23.are just Daft folk, as if they were mischievous little children. It is
:27:24. > :27:29.worse than that. When you look at what they say, they are twisted
:27:30. > :27:33.perhaps even evil minds. I would not disagree with his comments, but they
:27:34. > :27:38.are directed at just a small number of people. The story of this
:27:39. > :27:43.campaign is not the story of what people are saying on Twitter. Around
:27:44. > :27:49.Scotland, lots of people are getting engaged in debate to have been tuned
:27:50. > :27:53.out of the political process. Today, we have 47% support for the yes
:27:54. > :27:59.campaign. The movement in the campaign is towards yes. People know
:28:00. > :28:05.we have a better campaign, a vision for Scotland. The latest poll of
:28:06. > :28:09.polls does not show that. Both sides, you always take the opinion
:28:10. > :28:14.polls that show you in the best light. All politicians do that.
:28:15. > :28:20.Jackie Baillie, your campaign is not just negative, it is patronising.
:28:21. > :28:26.You make dubious claims that Scots would be ?1400 better off by staying
:28:27. > :28:33.in the union, and then you say that the kids use the money to scoff 280
:28:34. > :28:36.hotdogs at the Edinburgh Festival. The fate of the nation is in your
:28:37. > :28:42.hands and that is the best you can do? I think you will find that the
:28:43. > :28:48.campaign is something that we are taking the message to people. Then
:28:49. > :28:56.why are you talking about hotdogs? I do not. The campaign did. We are
:28:57. > :29:00.taking a positive message to people across Scotland about the benefits
:29:01. > :29:04.of the United Kingdom. We believe we are stronger and more secure and
:29:05. > :29:08.more stable, being part of that family of nations that is the United
:29:09. > :29:13.Kingdom. At the same time, we have the strange and power over things
:29:14. > :29:19.like education and transport. I understand that. I am not doing the
:29:20. > :29:24.issues today, I am talking about the tone of the campaign. I have one
:29:25. > :29:31.very important question. Who would you supporting last night in the
:29:32. > :29:35.England-Italy match? I was not watching the game. I would be
:29:36. > :29:39.delighted to see England do well in this tournament. I have Argentina in
:29:40. > :29:43.the office sweepstake. I have to keep some attention on them, but I
:29:44. > :29:49.would be delighted to seeing Clint do well. That is because you think
:29:50. > :29:55.it will help your campaign. It will annoy the Scots. Jackie Baillie I
:29:56. > :30:01.was supporting England. I was also supporting Portugal.
:30:02. > :30:04.Now most of you probably missed last night's football match
:30:05. > :30:07.between England and Italy because you wanted to get an early night and
:30:08. > :30:11.England lost despite a plucky effort, I'm told.
:30:12. > :30:14.But even Westminster is in the grip of World Cup fever
:30:15. > :30:16.and with speculation about the fitness of each political
:30:17. > :30:23.party's team we sent Adam out to tackle some of the big players.
:30:24. > :30:25.Well, this is the closest I'll get to Rio.
:30:26. > :30:39.This year everybody seems to have gone a bit mad Belize, football
:30:40. > :30:46.stickers. Let's see who I will get. Oh, the suspense -- a bit mad for
:30:47. > :30:47.these. George Osborne? That is because we leapt on the bandwagon
:30:48. > :30:50.and made Alan political stickers. They're hotter than a Brazilian
:30:51. > :30:52.barbecue. And at Westminster they're
:30:53. > :31:01.turning into collector?s items. Sunday politics political stickers.
:31:02. > :31:06.We have one of you, Norman. Would you like it? Do you want to start
:31:07. > :31:06.collecting, Bob? Would you like a packet?
:31:07. > :31:14.collecting, Bob? Would you like a Thank you. No album, I'm afraid
:31:15. > :31:17.collecting, Bob? Would you like a Thank you. No album, I've got
:31:18. > :31:25.Michael Gove, next to to Reza, and two of the Prime Minister. -- next
:31:26. > :31:26.to Theresa. I am sure Michael has Theresa in her stick around, and
:31:27. > :31:28.vice versa. These Tory ones are proving very
:31:29. > :31:30.popular since she fell out with him out how
:31:31. > :31:33.to handle extremism in schools. And there's been open speculation
:31:34. > :31:36.about him taking on him in Do you think there will be any
:31:37. > :31:47.reshuffle of the whole Tory album. Do you think there will be any
:31:48. > :31:56.swapping in the Tory leadership soon? Who knows? David Cameron has
:31:57. > :31:57.also got to replace the EU commissioner, Cathy Ashton, who is
:31:58. > :31:59.standing down. Does he go with the favourite
:32:00. > :32:01.the former health secretary Or the grassroots choice,
:32:02. > :32:04.Martin Callanan, the Tories old Or does he rehabilitate
:32:05. > :32:21.Andrew Mitchell after Plebgate? Do you fancy being European
:32:22. > :32:25.Commissioner? I would rather be spending the money on the world s
:32:26. > :32:27.poor and spending it well. Glad to hear it. Happy collecting.
:32:28. > :32:30.Right, there must be some Labour stickers out there.
:32:31. > :32:38.You don't want to swap Ed Balls any of the others? Can't I keep them
:32:39. > :32:39.all? This is almost the perfect team.
:32:40. > :32:42.There have been grumblings about the fitness of the Shadow
:32:43. > :32:46.And Ed Miliband's got a kicking in Liverpool after posing
:32:47. > :32:57.I'm told grown men are meeting up in pubs for sticker swaps -
:32:58. > :33:02.With Danny Finkelstein - Tory peer and Times columnist,
:33:03. > :33:14.He would be the card I would not want to trade. Do people want to
:33:15. > :33:17.trade him in? I don't think anybody wants to trade him in at the moment.
:33:18. > :33:21.He is the best person to lead the Labour party and will lead us into
:33:22. > :33:25.the next election. There's been a lot about Michael Gove, and he's
:33:26. > :33:28.very combative. That's been a huge strength as an education Secretary,
:33:29. > :33:31.despite the fact it's brought in trouble. I would think the prime
:33:32. > :33:35.minister would tell him not to get himself into peripheral battles at
:33:36. > :33:41.the moment but stick to what has been successful. I haven't got Nick
:33:42. > :33:47.Clegg, but I got me. Controversy amongst collectors of Lib Dems. I
:33:48. > :33:48.need to give away me in return for Nick Clegg. That would be far
:33:49. > :33:52.better. There you are. Some local parties are holding
:33:53. > :33:55.meetings about his leadership, but at one in Cambridge this week
:33:56. > :34:07.they voted to stick with him. You have got a Euro Commissioner.
:34:08. > :34:11.Why don't I swap, I will swap Ed Miliband for Tim Farren. Can I do
:34:12. > :34:14.that? What is the significance of that? Very significant. Happy
:34:15. > :34:17.collecting. These beauties are popping up
:34:18. > :34:20.everywhere, but sadly they won't Adam is still doing the samba around
:34:21. > :34:30.Westminster as I speak. I'm joined
:34:31. > :34:32.by three journalists who've been furiously swapping stickers
:34:33. > :34:34.throughout the show, they certainly weren't allowed to stay up to watch
:34:35. > :34:44.the football, it's Nick Watt, We will talk about Labour after the
:34:45. > :34:47.break, and I want to concentrate on the Tories, but the moment, Nick,
:34:48. > :34:56.senior Tories are saying privately that they might win next May. They
:34:57. > :35:01.are beginning to dream the dream. So why are they doing all this
:35:02. > :35:07.jockeying? I think the jockeying for the leadership is about a year old.
:35:08. > :35:13.What stoped it up was when Theresa gave a speech to the conference and
:35:14. > :35:16.people said she was doing it just in case, when things were not looking
:35:17. > :35:21.too good. She is not on manoeuvres. I think it was a policy row that
:35:22. > :35:25.drove the differences with Michael Gove. But Michael Gove is on
:35:26. > :35:28.manoeuvres, and he is trying to protect George Osborne from, he
:35:29. > :35:35.believes, a serious threat from Boris Johnson and possibly Theresa.
:35:36. > :35:38.It is quite self-indulgent when you are a couple of points behind, the
:35:39. > :35:48.economy is going your way, to be involved in this sort of stuff.
:35:49. > :35:54.Extraordinary. It shows the toxic disease that gnaws at the entrails
:35:55. > :35:56.of the Tory party, and Cameron is their great asset. He is more
:35:57. > :36:01.popular than the party, he bridges the gap is, and he has an
:36:02. > :36:05.extraordinary dissemble and some pretending to be this moderate while
:36:06. > :36:08.never the lens -- nevertheless leading the most far right wing
:36:09. > :36:12.government we have had since the war, and that has been a brilliant
:36:13. > :36:14.piece of political Charente and they would be crazy to get rid of it --
:36:15. > :36:17.political Charente. piece of political Charente and they
:36:18. > :36:22.would be crazy to get rid of it -- charades. Does this rumble on? I
:36:23. > :36:26.have an unfashionable view as there aren't half as many leadership plots
:36:27. > :36:30.taking place in Westminster as we assume, and the willingness to read
:36:31. > :36:34.strategic calculation into anything that takes place comes from people
:36:35. > :36:40.watching I Claudius or house of cards. That hasn't been off -- on
:36:41. > :36:47.for years. I needed a reference from your time. I needed something. Maybe
:36:48. > :36:51.brief encounter? It's a stylised view of how politics works, and so
:36:52. > :36:57.much more in life is about randomness and mistakes. Boris
:36:58. > :37:03.Johnson, Theresa May, Michael Gove as George Osborne's man on earth,
:37:04. > :37:06.they are positioning themselves -- Janan wrote an eloquent comment this
:37:07. > :37:12.week about this, but there are certain realities that. Michael Gove
:37:13. > :37:16.had that famous dinner with Rupert Murdoch a few weeks ago in which he
:37:17. > :37:20.said that you must not make Boris Johnson leader of the Conservative
:37:21. > :37:24.party, George Osborne is my man Theresa May set out her credo two
:37:25. > :37:28.years ago and people on her team were saying that she was doing it
:37:29. > :37:32.just in case. People are out there and are thinking of the future, but
:37:33. > :37:36.I do think Janan is right. In the village, in the thick of it mindset,
:37:37. > :37:45.you can get a bit carried away and you can be a bit in the famous. That
:37:46. > :37:52.is before your era. He died. What did he mean by it. You can get a bit
:37:53. > :37:55.carried away by it. I will have words with you during the break
:37:56. > :37:57.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:58. > :38:00.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:38:01. > :38:10.Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be talking about Ed Miliband's
:38:11. > :38:14.Hello and a warm welcome to your local part of the show `
:38:15. > :38:16.more nerve`shredding than any World Cup football match,
:38:17. > :38:19.without the lovely Gary Lindker but hopefully no diving.
:38:20. > :38:25.This school has no kitchen, so how is it going to provide free school
:38:26. > :38:31.We are in Cumbria finding ott if the coalition's promises can be met
:38:32. > :38:34.My guests, kicking around the week's issues, whth no
:38:35. > :38:37.Labour's former Chief Whip, Newcastle MP Nick Brown and,
:38:38. > :38:41.for the Conservatives, David Skelton ` the man who is trying to revive
:38:42. > :38:44.Tory fortunes in the north, a job some might say that is even
:38:45. > :38:50.But first, the Government s`ys 47,000 new jobs have been created
:38:51. > :38:56.But this week it emerged th`t weekly earnings are continuing to fall
:38:57. > :38:58.The pay packets of women in particular are down, mord than
:38:59. > :39:15.Nick Brown, the Prime Minister was right at Prime Minister's Qtestions
:39:16. > :39:24.this week. Employment did go faster this quarter than anywhere dlse in
:39:25. > :39:32.the country. The questions to the Prime Minister asked about poverty
:39:33. > :39:36.in work. Two thirds of children who are living below the povertx line
:39:37. > :39:45.are in families where someone is working. Work is not the pathway out
:39:46. > :39:52.of poverty here. The answer is that we need more jobs and a better
:39:53. > :40:03.spread of jobs. David Skelton, on the face of its the news is next,
:40:04. > :40:08.isn't it? People are not fedling the benefit of being in work. It is good
:40:09. > :40:15.news that more people are in work. We have two think about the legacy
:40:16. > :40:23.that the coalition was faced with. Labour were not doing enough to get
:40:24. > :40:28.this done. We still had the highest unemployment in the country after 13
:40:29. > :40:31.years of Labour government. Now I think a lot is being done to make
:40:32. > :40:39.sure that more businesses are created. But the government will not
:40:40. > :40:48.get credit for that unless wages rise. You need a long`term growth in
:40:49. > :40:52.the region. I think it is rhght to acknowledge what the governlent has
:40:53. > :41:01.done to help people who are struggling. Between 2004 and 20 0,
:41:02. > :41:09.the government increased thd minimum wage and took the poorest pdople out
:41:10. > :41:15.of tax altogether. This is not a good use of statistics. Durhng the
:41:16. > :41:24.period of the Labour governlent this area had the fastest growth of
:41:25. > :41:30.any English region. There w`s an agency that focused on the `rea and
:41:31. > :41:43.worked for the region. I was a regional minister and was able to
:41:44. > :41:45.intervene on a number of issues Let us top about something else.
:41:46. > :41:48.When the Conservatives lost their North`East seat in last month's Euro
:41:49. > :41:50.elections, it was another low in the party's spiral of decline.
:41:51. > :41:53.It is hard to imagine, but back in the 1970s the Tories
:41:54. > :41:55.controlled big city councils like Sunderland and Newcastle,
:41:56. > :41:58.while, even under Mrs Thatcher, places like Darlington and Tynemouth
:41:59. > :42:01.It is all very different now, of course.
:42:02. > :42:03.But the Conservative Party hs not giving up without a fight
:42:04. > :42:08.and has launched a campaign to broaden its appeal in the North
:42:09. > :42:13.But do not be misled by the yachts, this County Durham town has coal
:42:14. > :42:17.dust in its veins and has h`d Labour MPs for almost a century
:42:18. > :42:21.Maybe not the best place to hunt for potential Tories.
:42:22. > :42:24.Actually, there is somewherd in Seaham that is true blue and this is
:42:25. > :42:29.It has actually got hundreds of members,
:42:30. > :42:34.But if you join the club, you do not have to join the Conservatives.
:42:35. > :42:37.You just have to say that you are prepared to vote Tory.
:42:38. > :42:40.Even that takes some guts for working`class men
:42:41. > :42:45.Ask them for their views on Cameron's Conservatives, though and
:42:46. > :42:51.He talks out of the back of his head, I think.
:42:52. > :42:53.You can?t believe anything that he says.
:42:54. > :42:55.I don't think much of him to be quite honest.
:42:56. > :42:58.I think he is a waste of tile as a leader.
:42:59. > :43:02.He was brought up by a millhonaire father and this sort of thing.
:43:03. > :43:10.You keep going on about the food banks and things like that, but they
:43:11. > :43:14.do not want to know about it, they do not even think they are there.
:43:15. > :43:17.The leaders of the party, the people at the top, are lore
:43:18. > :43:20.interested in being celebrities than running the country.
:43:21. > :43:22.There were some who were more supportive, but even the cltb
:43:23. > :43:27.chairman recognises that his party is not playing well in the North.
:43:28. > :43:31.We donate a lot of money to the Conservativd Party,
:43:32. > :43:35.from the Conservative Club, and we expect them to listen to us.
:43:36. > :43:39.If they do not start listenhng to us, they are going to lose
:43:40. > :43:43.So what concerns do members feel are being ignored?
:43:44. > :43:46.Immigration certainly came tp and the north`south divide too.
:43:47. > :43:49.And there was disquiet about the legacy of a missing Conserv`tive.
:43:50. > :43:52.You will not find a picture of Margaret Thatcher here,
:43:53. > :43:55.because the chairman says it would not go down well.
:43:56. > :43:58.The irony here is that if D`ve here had managed to secure as many
:43:59. > :44:01.northern voters as Maggie dhd, he would now be the Prime Mhnister
:44:02. > :44:05.of a Conservative Government and not just a coalition.
:44:06. > :44:07.So the Conservative brand in the North does seem to nded
:44:08. > :44:11.Time, perhaps, to take specialist advice.
:44:12. > :44:13.Cravens is an advertising agency in Newcastle.
:44:14. > :44:17.One of its current clients hs Glasgow Rangers Football Cltb.
:44:18. > :44:20.What advice would they give to another set of struggling blues
:44:21. > :44:25.This is not about logos or strap lines, this is about things that
:44:26. > :44:32.I think Boris Johnson in London is doing a very good job of behng
:44:33. > :44:37.He appeals to people and he connects to the people in that
:44:38. > :44:43.I think finding a North`East spokesperson,
:44:44. > :44:45.a credible spokesperson, whether they come from the world of
:44:46. > :44:49.sport or media I am not surd, would be a really positive step forward.
:44:50. > :44:53.There are new brands to content with too.
:44:54. > :44:57.Ted voted Conservative for 40 years, but in 2010 he joined UKIP `nd
:44:58. > :45:01.in 2015 he will stand against the Tory MP in the general election
:45:02. > :45:05.Attracted by his new party, repelled by his old.
:45:06. > :45:07.I think that over the years, they have changed totally
:45:08. > :45:14.They are not in touch with people at all.
:45:15. > :45:19.Even going back to the 70s tnder Margaret Thatcher, many people did
:45:20. > :45:21.not like her, but at least she came from a working`class background
:45:22. > :45:24.Now you have a lot of multimillionaires who do not have
:45:25. > :45:26.a clue what is happening to Joe Public.
:45:27. > :45:29.There does not seem to be mtch sunshine on the horizon for the
:45:30. > :45:38.On the streets and even in their own club they seem a little snookered.
:45:39. > :45:41.Well let's talk about that now with my guests.
:45:42. > :45:43.I am also joined by the North East's newly elected member of the
:45:44. > :45:50.European Parliament, Jonathan Arnott from UKIP.
:45:51. > :45:58.David Skelton, you are obviously someone who wants to revive the
:45:59. > :46:04.boat. It is depressing to go to a conservative club and sea vhews like
:46:05. > :46:09.that. I believe that the politics in the North East is in flux at the
:46:10. > :46:17.moment. Firstly, the Labour vote is imploding. They got less thoughts in
:46:18. > :46:28.the North East, they have lost the hundred and 50,000 voters. Lany
:46:29. > :46:35.people are saying similar things. They said that Labour has t`ken
:46:36. > :46:40.their base for granted. A ntmber of people I speak to in the north`east
:46:41. > :46:54.say that Labour is not their party any more. The Liberal Democrat vote
:46:55. > :46:58.has also gone. I think therd is a strong opportunity for the
:46:59. > :47:01.Conservatives here. What cale across there is that people think that your
:47:02. > :47:08.party is out of touch with working people. The important point is not
:47:09. > :47:13.about personality, it is about using power to help working peopld. I
:47:14. > :47:17.think there is an opportunity here for the Conservatives that has not
:47:18. > :47:23.been around in recent decadds. They can use their power to help working
:47:24. > :47:33.people in the North East. Jonathan Arnott, the policies of UKIP have
:47:34. > :47:45.appealed to people but can xou replace the Conservatives? What we
:47:46. > :47:49.have done in the European and local elections is finished ahead of the
:47:50. > :47:57.Conservatives in most places. We took more votes than them across the
:47:58. > :48:01.north`east. It is astonishing. Can you beat them in a general dlection?
:48:02. > :48:13.Will people vote UKIP for government? We found that when
:48:14. > :48:18.people were choosing an MP... We have to do the best we can. The
:48:19. > :48:24.simple fact is that the est`blished parties are not listening to UKIP's
:48:25. > :48:30.message. They are not prepared to change or do anything about it.
:48:31. > :48:35.While they continue being arrogant and ignoring the needs and wishes of
:48:36. > :48:45.working`class voters they whll still find a problem with support. This is
:48:46. > :48:48.a problem for Labour as well. Some people have said that they have
:48:49. > :48:56.become the party of the middle`class, not the working class.
:48:57. > :49:02.There is a truth in that. There is also some sense in the consdrvative
:49:03. > :49:07.renewal at the attempt to rdbuild support in the north. I think it
:49:08. > :49:11.will be a long time before people forget that Margaret Thatchdr used
:49:12. > :49:21.the police against the miners and start people in shipyards. But the
:49:22. > :49:30.decline of only happened after Margaret Thatcher left office. But
:49:31. > :49:36.when we needed help she would not help us and she kind her back on us.
:49:37. > :49:41.People will not forget that. But you will accept there is a challenge for
:49:42. > :49:47.Labour because working`class people are also moving away from your
:49:48. > :49:55.party. It is important that we engage with the people that we
:49:56. > :50:05.expect to support us. If Labour turns its back on working`class
:50:06. > :50:10.people it will be a problem. I do not think that we have done this. I
:50:11. > :50:17.work hard to service the nedds of my constituency. The Labour Party is
:50:18. > :50:27.resilient in the north`east because other members of Parliament... This
:50:28. > :50:36.is a 20 year decline. What hs the silver bullet? It has to be seen as
:50:37. > :50:44.the party of job creation and economic renewal. Labour had 13
:50:45. > :50:49.years in power and the problems were still there when they left hn 2 10.
:50:50. > :50:55.The Conservative Party has to be seen as the party that is about
:50:56. > :51:00.restoring the north`east. It is about ensuring their jobs are
:51:01. > :51:08.created. David Cameron would say that you are doing that now. They
:51:09. > :51:20.are doing it now. But they `re making a complete mess of it. Let us
:51:21. > :51:26.focus on the Conservatives. There is rather growth in the north`dast I
:51:27. > :51:36.think it is important that the seen as the party of economic growth and
:51:37. > :51:45.job creation. They should bd seen to devolve power to the north`dast The
:51:46. > :51:54.Conservatives should also t`ke part in education reform. Jonath`n
:51:55. > :51:59.Arnott, the new think it is odd that your party can appeal to
:52:00. > :52:05.working`class people with a wealthy in? But some of our members come
:52:06. > :52:12.from council estates. The whole point of UKIP is that the appeal to
:52:13. > :52:20.people from all different sorts of backgrounds. Because we had people
:52:21. > :52:21.at the top of our party who are from working class backgrounds they
:52:22. > :52:23.understand. Now to one
:52:24. > :52:25.of the most mouth`watering policies from the coalition `
:52:26. > :52:28.a pledge to introduce free school lunches for every child in hnfant
:52:29. > :52:30.school from September this xear A hot healthy meal, it is claimed,
:52:31. > :52:33.will give every child But it is proving quite
:52:34. > :52:38.a logistical challenge to ddliver. In Cumbria,
:52:39. > :52:39.the local authority delivers just That will rise to more
:52:40. > :52:44.than 15,000 in September. And despite of more than ?1 million
:52:45. > :52:47.from the Government, there `re still worries over exactly how sole
:52:48. > :52:50.of the meals will be providdd. 200 dinners a day are made ` day
:52:51. > :52:56.in Deaton at Robert Ferguson I like them because they ard cooked
:52:57. > :53:03.and very nice, because the dinner ladies are kind to you all the time
:53:04. > :53:09.and it means having a proper meal I like all the puddings,
:53:10. > :53:14.because they make them But in September,
:53:15. > :53:20.staff are expecting to deliver 00 daily dinners because the government
:53:21. > :53:22.wants all infant school children to Schools are under
:53:23. > :53:28.pressure to prepare. Like so many initiatives th`t come
:53:29. > :53:35.into schools, where head te`chers have to do a professional job of
:53:36. > :53:38.implementing them, this particular one does feel rushed and it does
:53:39. > :53:44.feel that not only schools but local authorities have had to hotfoot it
:53:45. > :53:47.to work out where to deploy the But in essence I think it is
:53:48. > :53:56.a good policy. Across the region,
:53:57. > :54:00.an estimated 36,000 more school children will be entitled to free
:54:01. > :54:04.school meals from this Septdmber. Stockton says they are expecting to
:54:05. > :54:09.provide 5,500 extra meals, Durham is planning for 5,000, and in Gateshead
:54:10. > :54:14.and Northumberland it is 2,000 each. But Cumbria faces
:54:15. > :54:19.the biggest challenge. At the moment,
:54:20. > :54:22.the county council delivers more That will rise to more
:54:23. > :54:26.than 15,000 this autumn. They have been given a Government
:54:27. > :54:29.grant of more than a million pounds to pay for new kitchen equipment
:54:30. > :54:31.and small alterations. But that will not pay
:54:32. > :54:34.for big dining room extensions or The Government has determindd
:54:35. > :54:39.the amount of money that Culbria I'm sympathetic to a lot of the
:54:40. > :54:45.schools, but I'm afraid that does We will try to work the schools
:54:46. > :54:49.as much as we can, and we will try to mitigate anything
:54:50. > :54:53.that is going on, but we do not have For Fairfield Primary School
:54:54. > :54:56.in Cockermouth, the autumn term At the moment,
:54:57. > :55:04.all pupils eat packed lunchds. But Nick Clegg's policy is
:55:05. > :55:08.for hot meals. We are going to have to havd meals
:55:09. > :55:11.transported in ` To work with some companies
:55:12. > :55:16.and schools that can producd hot school meals and have them
:55:17. > :55:18.transported to our site. Our long`term vision is that
:55:19. > :55:21.hopefully, at some point in time, we will have
:55:22. > :55:26.our own hot kitchen on`site. If there are problems,
:55:27. > :55:30.the message is not to stay silent. I have been talking to a lot
:55:31. > :55:33.of schools and most Those who have had difficult issues,
:55:34. > :55:37.we have managed to find solttions In some cases,
:55:38. > :55:40.there is a financial issue and it is just a case of thd county
:55:41. > :55:44.council approaching the Govdrnment and saying that this has become
:55:45. > :55:47.difficult for us and I'm 100 percent A few heads
:55:48. > :55:50.in Cumbria doubt the value of the free meal policy, but they are
:55:51. > :55:53.less confident about the tilescale. Moving
:55:54. > :55:54.from party conference announcement to plates on tables in under
:55:55. > :56:11.a year is proving a tall order. Nick Brown, I know we have talked
:56:12. > :56:20.about this. The coalition h`s made a pledge and is delivering it. It is
:56:21. > :56:27.impressive, isn't it? It was labour who first proposed the schele. David
:56:28. > :56:33.Cameron has reintroduced wh`t Labour piloted. I think it is a good idea.
:56:34. > :56:39.They made a political agreelent first and then looked at thd
:56:40. > :56:44.practical consequences and realise that some of the schools cotld not
:56:45. > :56:52.do it. These problems need to be sorted out. David Skelton, hs this
:56:53. > :56:56.the kind of thing that will broaden coalition appeal or is it ghving
:56:57. > :57:13.free food to people who can afford it with Mac it is an excelldnt
:57:14. > :57:17.policy. Having a hot meal hdlps educational performance. Thdre have
:57:18. > :57:28.been studies that showed thhs is the case. But people from deprived areas
:57:29. > :57:36.get free meals anyway. That is not the point. It is saving pardnts
:57:37. > :57:43.money. But you talk about the severity and cutting public spending
:57:44. > :57:52.but you are giving free meals to children whose parents can `fford
:57:53. > :58:03.it. This is an important policy to improve educational attainmdnt. It
:58:04. > :58:11.is focused... But it is being rushed through. I don't think it is being
:58:12. > :58:20.rushed through. Idea of nothce was given. It is a very progressive
:58:21. > :58:31.policy that I think everyond should get the hind. But money was spent on
:58:32. > :58:44.free schools when it could have been given to build kitchens. Is it not a
:58:45. > :58:48.good idea? The argument is nutrition. The evidence that is
:58:49. > :58:54.available to the government is that young people perform better with a
:58:55. > :59:02.hot meal inside of them rather than a pact lunch. I think it is a good
:59:03. > :59:04.argument for continuing the policy. Now, a look at what else has been
:59:05. > :59:07.going on this week ` including the first ever lo`n
:59:08. > :59:10.from a local council to the NHS With that and the rest of the news,
:59:11. > :59:16.here is Mark Denten. Firms bidding to run the
:59:17. > :59:19.East Coast Main Line are behng urged to put on direct trains
:59:20. > :59:21.from Middlesbrough to London. Research by Tees Valley Unlhmited
:59:22. > :59:24.claims it would be worth ne`rly ?50 million a year to
:59:25. > :59:27.the region?s economy. Northumbria Country Council is to
:59:28. > :59:30.make a loan of ?114 million to Northumbria Health Care will use
:59:31. > :59:34.the money to end its PFI contract The Trust says the move will
:59:35. > :59:42.save around ?3.5 million a xear The Prime Minister says cre`ting
:59:43. > :59:45.more jobs in the North East is the Shockingly,
:59:46. > :59:52.one in three children in thd North Significantly, two out of three
:59:53. > :00:04.young people who are living in households now. And finally your MPs
:00:05. > :00:09.will get a chance to put thdir own bills forward to the Commons, after
:00:10. > :00:13.coming eighth and eleventh hn the But there is no guarantee they
:00:14. > :00:23.will get debated in the Comlons And just time to fit in one more
:00:24. > :00:26.from a boisterous Question Time Labour's Ronnie Campbell was
:00:27. > :00:29.in trouble with the Speaker after interrupting the
:00:30. > :00:32.Prime Minister one time too many. That is what is happening,
:00:33. > :00:34.but above all... Mr Campbell,
:00:35. > :00:36.when you are eating curry...order! When you are eating curry in the
:00:37. > :00:39.Kennington Tandoori you do not yell across the restaurant, so do not
:00:40. > :00:43.yell across the floor of thhs house! Ronnie Campbell getting a thcking,
:00:44. > :00:51.or should that be a tikka`ing, off. Anyway, sounds like he might
:00:52. > :00:54.get poppadoms for life. We are back, and just as sphcy,
:00:55. > :00:57.on BBC One next Sunday. For now, do follow me on Twhtter
:00:58. > :01:00.and enjoy the football. It is back to Andrew for thd rest
:01:01. > :01:12.of this week's programme. There are big changes afoot
:01:13. > :01:15.in the EU following last month's European elections,
:01:16. > :01:17.not least who'll get the top job But
:01:18. > :01:21.behind the scenes the parties have also been jockeying for position as
:01:22. > :01:24.they try to form the big groups that And UKIP seems to have been
:01:25. > :01:28.struggling to keep its influence Here's Adam to explain
:01:29. > :01:41.how it all works. If you want your party to be a big
:01:42. > :01:45.cheese in the European Parliament, you need to form a political group.
:01:46. > :01:49.By doing this, the party gets more money, more positions on committees
:01:50. > :01:56.and even more speaking rights in the chamber. But the parliament's rules
:01:57. > :02:00.are strict. And to form a group you need a group of 25 MPs from at least
:02:01. > :02:04.seven different countries. For UKIP, the number of MEPs will not be a
:02:05. > :02:09.problem because they already have 24 of their own, but the different
:02:10. > :02:13.nationalities are more of a challenge. Nigel Farage was not
:02:14. > :02:18.helped by the Tories stealing - stealing his former Danish and
:02:19. > :02:26.Finnish allies, and the pen pinching his Italian charms. Nigel needs a
:02:27. > :02:29.new charm and fast. He has already signed up Lithuania's order and
:02:30. > :02:35.justice, a free citizen from Prague, and the Dutchman from the reformed
:02:36. > :02:43.political party. The big signing was the 17 members of the Italian Beppe
:02:44. > :02:46.Griego's 5-star movement, but it leaves UKIP short of two more
:02:47. > :02:50.international powers, and with the clock ticking, it looks like his
:02:51. > :02:53.hopes resting on the Swedish Democrats and the Polish new right
:02:54. > :03:01.Congress. They both make their decisions next week.
:03:02. > :03:06.What is the latest? UKIP have enough MEPs with their pals, but they need
:03:07. > :03:11.seven countries, as I understand it. They are not there yet. They are
:03:12. > :03:15.wrapped five countries and need another two. UKIP are being quite
:03:16. > :03:19.buoyant and say they will be meeting MEPs from five countries next week
:03:20. > :03:24.and are pretty confident they will get those countries, but as Adam was
:03:25. > :03:33.saying, the problem UKIP have had is that the Conservatives have nicked
:03:34. > :03:35.two of the parties. That is why they have been struggling, but they say
:03:36. > :03:40.they are confident they will do it. Meanwhile, the Tories new best
:03:41. > :03:46.friends are the German Eurosceptic party, which has put Mrs Merkel s
:03:47. > :03:52.nose out of joint, but we don't quite know whether she really cares
:03:53. > :03:58.or not. I think Cameron has played his hand badly since he committed to
:03:59. > :04:05.pulling out of the EBP. And he should be in there with Angela
:04:06. > :04:11.Merkel and if he needs to make a major renegotiation, he needs to
:04:12. > :04:16.have the Germans onside. Instead there is a breakaway party and its
:04:17. > :04:22.like supporting UKIP. His party are supporting her worst enemy. It
:04:23. > :04:24.certainly causing him a lot of problems, and undermines his
:04:25. > :04:31.negotiating position, but isn't there an honesty that the
:04:32. > :04:35.centre-right group is explicitly Federalist, and the Tories are
:04:36. > :04:39.anything but, so they came out, and Labour are in the Socialist group,
:04:40. > :04:44.which is explicitly Federalist, and they are not Federalist either. If
:04:45. > :04:48.you want support and influence in Europe, you have to trade, and he
:04:49. > :04:54.hasn't done this well. The whole business with who will be the next
:04:55. > :04:59.president, he needs Angela Merkel's support. Without that, it won't
:05:00. > :05:06.happen. He should have been trading behind-the-scenes, but he has
:05:07. > :05:09.exposed himself in public, and if he doesn't win it looks uncertain, and
:05:10. > :05:12.he will be in a position where he has to go back to his own party and
:05:13. > :05:16.say they are not getting anywhere. That is dangerous and takes us
:05:17. > :05:23.closer to the Exeter, which I don't think would want. The danger for Mr
:05:24. > :05:28.Cameron is if it is the president of the commission, he will save you
:05:29. > :05:31.cannot stop a federalist becoming head of the European commission
:05:32. > :05:37.what chance do you have of repatriating lots of powers back to
:05:38. > :05:42.London. There are lots of Tory MPs dying to make the argument. My hunch
:05:43. > :05:46.is that he won't make it. There are too many countries opposed to his
:05:47. > :05:52.presidency and even the country notionally in favour of it, Germany,
:05:53. > :05:57.is failing in youth -- enthusiasm. Angela Merkel cannot be seen to give
:05:58. > :06:04.in to the Brits this. Her own side once it as well, though some reason
:06:05. > :06:08.the German media says it. When she tried to reach out and said to look
:06:09. > :06:13.at the other candidates, she got such abuse on the right wing press
:06:14. > :06:23.from her own country and party she had to retreat. Janan is right that
:06:24. > :06:29.there is opposition to Juncker, but as long as Cameron turns it into an
:06:30. > :06:35.argument about Britain and Europe, he will strengthen the hand of
:06:36. > :06:40.Juncker. Angela Merkel thinks Juncker is inappropriate. She did
:06:41. > :06:43.not like the process, which was a power grab by the European
:06:44. > :06:47.Parliament, but when David Cameron went to the council and said that if
:06:48. > :06:54.I don't get my way, we could leave the EU, that led to the backlash,
:06:55. > :06:58.most significantly from the SPD in Germany. As Tony Blair says, if only
:06:59. > :07:01.David Cameron had made the argument that Juncker is bad for Europe, then
:07:02. > :07:06.he would have found his natural allies would have felt more
:07:07. > :07:14.comfortable following behind. Enough Europe. I want to show you a
:07:15. > :07:18.picture. See what you think of this. When I saw that picture, I thought
:07:19. > :07:24.it was so ludicrous that it had to have been photo shop. Discuss. He is
:07:25. > :07:30.holding it with a certain disdain, looking a bit hangdog. A disastrous
:07:31. > :07:35.picture for Ed Miliband. His strength is authenticity, sincerity
:07:36. > :07:38.and cleverness. And he blows all of that. He was the one who took on
:07:39. > :07:43.Murdoch, very bravely and dangerously, and one, really. Now
:07:44. > :07:47.there he is supporting Murdoch's son. It's a big mistake, not just in
:07:48. > :07:55.Liverpool, where obviously they are particularly incensed. And then he
:07:56. > :07:59.apologises. Sort of apologises and understands why Liverpool feels
:08:00. > :08:03.upset. But it is a fundamental error and I hope he learns from this, that
:08:04. > :08:08.he must absolutely stay true to himself. That's all he's got going
:08:09. > :08:16.for him. Who do we blame? His advisers or himself? In the end
:08:17. > :08:23.himself. Nobody forced him to do it. On this one, he called it wrong
:08:24. > :08:30.It's a sign of the rather the bridal state of the Labour Party is that
:08:31. > :08:38.his candidates were vocal in attacking him doing this. It's a
:08:39. > :08:41.sign of how readable Ed Miliband is at Parliamentary level. I don't
:08:42. > :08:50.think you should have apologised. The mistake he made was associating
:08:51. > :08:55.himself with that newspaper. The mistake was the prior three years
:08:56. > :09:00.when he went too far as portraying the Murdoch empire beyond the pale.
:09:01. > :09:05.He made a case against phone hacking and offences in that regard without
:09:06. > :09:09.going as far as he did with the rhetoric. To do that, and then pose
:09:10. > :09:12.with the Sun newspaper, the juxtaposition is what did for him,
:09:13. > :09:18.not the mere fact of posing with it. Maybe he did not know what he was
:09:19. > :09:21.doing because we were told he doesn't read the British
:09:22. > :09:26.newspapers. It was football, and he has posed with the Sun newspaper
:09:27. > :09:30.before. Mr Cameron and Mr Clegg posed as well. But with the Sun
:09:31. > :09:34.newspaper and football, you tread carefully. That was the mistake You
:09:35. > :09:38.get the impression from the picture that he looks so uncomfortable that
:09:39. > :09:42.you wonder whether there was a full process of consultation that went on
:09:43. > :09:45.within his media operation, within his political operation. Was he
:09:46. > :09:49.fully aware of what would happen question what he looks so incredibly
:09:50. > :09:53.uncomfortable. But at the end of the day, leaders have to take
:09:54. > :09:58.responsibility. It is cultural as well. That picture says, I am down
:09:59. > :10:02.there with the football blokes and you think, you are not. That is not
:10:03. > :10:05.what people will vote for. Be yourself and don't pretend to be
:10:06. > :10:10.something else because it never works. But the polls suggest that
:10:11. > :10:15.the British voters don't yet see Ed Miliband as prime ministerial. The
:10:16. > :10:19.worst thing you can then do is get involved in stunts that are more
:10:20. > :10:23.likely to reinforce that idea than counter it. There was a precedent
:10:24. > :10:30.for it in the last parliament which was Gordon Brown's attempts to feign
:10:31. > :10:35.a populist touch. He did it by telling the contents of his iPod.
:10:36. > :10:40.The Arctic monkeys. It always jarred because he was trying too hard. Not
:10:41. > :10:44.uniquely guilty of, Ed Miliband all the other leaders have done it. At
:10:45. > :10:49.the moment he more vulnerable. Yes, and he is less popular than his
:10:50. > :10:52.party. Labour has quite a popular brand, in a resilient way, in a way
:10:53. > :10:57.they don't with the Tories, yet their leader is a personal problem.
:10:58. > :11:03.The pressure is on him to do stunts like this. Will there be a shadow
:11:04. > :11:06.cabinet reshuffle? Yes, we have to get the cabinet reshuffle out of the
:11:07. > :11:10.way first, and that might come next week, maybe by the time of the
:11:11. > :11:13.summer recess, but the first thing that the prime Minister do is work
:11:14. > :11:20.out who is the UK candidate for the European Commissioner. Is it not the
:11:21. > :11:24.case probably that Ed Balls is becoming semi-detached from the Ed
:11:25. > :11:28.Miliband project? I don't think entirely. Nothing gets agreed
:11:29. > :11:31.without both of the end are green. Ed Balls is controversial. He has
:11:32. > :11:36.great pluses and minuses and is a big figure. Labour doesn't have that
:11:37. > :11:41.many big figures. It's quite hard to think who would be a heavy hitter as
:11:42. > :11:46.a possible Chancellor. He is a convincing chancellor to the future,
:11:47. > :11:51.Love him. He has the heft -- love him or hate him. Any possibility Ed
:11:52. > :11:56.Balls could be moved as shadow chancellor? The timing is convenient
:11:57. > :11:59.because the Scottish referendum ends in the autumn and Alistair Darling
:12:00. > :12:04.becomes a free man, win or lose I don't think Ed Balls will be removed
:12:05. > :12:06.because moving him would be an admission that everything the Labour
:12:07. > :12:10.Party said about the economy to the preceding four years has been a
:12:11. > :12:15.mistake. And you can't do that nine months before a general election.
:12:16. > :12:18.You invite ridicule. But relations between Ed Miliband and Ed Balls are
:12:19. > :12:22.not great at the moment. The Ed Miliband team are very, very
:12:23. > :12:26.suspicious of this new love in between Ed Balls and Peter
:12:27. > :12:30.Mandelson. Mandelson likes to say that he spotted the Ed Balls talents
:12:31. > :12:36.in the original place and appointed him to the Gordon Brown team after
:12:37. > :12:40.the disaster of 1992. But things obviously went awry, and now Ed
:12:41. > :12:45.Balls and Peter Mandelson Avenue Rappaport, and that is with enormous
:12:46. > :12:50.suspicion -- they have a new Rappaport. With good reason because
:12:51. > :12:52.it's about policy. It's about the attitude towards business. Should
:12:53. > :12:58.they be out there saying they will get the tax dodgers, Starbucks,
:12:59. > :13:03.Vodafone, are we going to take on business in a big way? In a way that
:13:04. > :13:06.Ed Miliband has quite bravely said. On the other hand, Ed Balls and
:13:07. > :13:10.Peter Mandelson are saying, hang on, we only won in 1997 by being
:13:11. > :13:12.business friendly. Sorry to rush you. We are running out of time
:13:13. > :13:16.The Daily Politics will be back every day this week at midday,
:13:17. > :13:19.and I'll be back here next Sunday when I'll be joined
:13:20. > :13:22.by the shadow work and pensions secretary Rachel Reeves.Remember
:13:23. > :13:54.if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:13:55. > :13:59.Magnificent. The power base of medieval England.
:14:00. > :14:05.Charles' ceiling was a piece of breathtaking arrogance.
:14:06. > :14:13.You get a sense of the people who made the palaces.
:14:14. > :14:17.as I unlock the secrets of Britain's great palaces.