:00:37. > :00:42.Just two months to go until Scotland decides if it should stay
:00:43. > :00:45.As the campaign heads for the final furlong,
:00:46. > :00:49.what are the issues and arguments that will determine the result?
:00:50. > :00:53.The SNP's deputy leader Nicola Sturgeon joins me live.
:00:54. > :00:56.David Cameron's scheduled a major cabinet reshuffle on Tuesday.
:00:57. > :00:58.Many of those tipped for promotion are women.
:00:59. > :01:02.So have efforts to promote diversity in public life barely started or
:01:03. > :01:11.And don't know whether to support Germany or
:01:12. > :01:20.In the North East and Cumbrha: political guide to the World Cup.
:01:21. > :01:22.A week of strikes but will it alter the Government's
:01:23. > :01:25.And what future does the co`operative movement have
:01:26. > :01:41.It's World Cup final day and as usual the BBC's snagged the
:01:42. > :01:46.Yes, eat your heart out, ITV, because for top football analysis
:01:47. > :01:50.we've got Gary Lineker, Alan Hansen, and Alan Shearer.
:01:51. > :01:52.And for top political analysis you may
:01:53. > :01:56.as well tune in to them too because all we could come up with is Nick
:01:57. > :02:06.David Cameron will reshuffle his cabinet on Tuesday.
:02:07. > :02:09.The Sunday papers are full of stories telling us who'll be
:02:10. > :02:11.in and who'll be out, though they don't really know.
:02:12. > :02:14.The Mail on Sunday has one of the more eye-catching lines,
:02:15. > :02:16.reporting that former defence secretary and right-winger Liam Fox
:02:17. > :02:20.is in line for a return to the political front line.
:02:21. > :02:27.But there's general agreement that women will do well and some
:02:28. > :02:30.of the old men in suits guard will do badly.
:02:31. > :02:40.Here's senior Tory backbencher David Davis speaking to this programme.
:02:41. > :02:46.It's good to make parliament more representative.
:02:47. > :02:49.But you've got to do it in a way that doesn't create
:02:50. > :02:53.injustices, and you can't put people in a job who can't do the job.
:02:54. > :03:01.And I've seen that too over the last 20 years, people being
:03:02. > :03:03.accelerated too far too fast and they come to
:03:04. > :03:09.a screeching halt where they have to catch up with themselves.
:03:10. > :03:23.I am not going to give an example. Is this not a bit cynical? He is
:03:24. > :03:31.going to promote these women into cabinet positions, but they will not
:03:32. > :03:36.be able to do anything. I am sceptical of Cabinet reshuffle. It
:03:37. > :03:43.is an un-written pact in that the media and the government have a
:03:44. > :03:47.great interest in talking it up. The government says, haven't we
:03:48. > :03:51.refreshed ourselves? Generally it doesn't refresh the government.
:03:52. > :03:58.David Cameron wants to send out a new signal. You're going to see the
:03:59. > :04:02.old guard getting a P 45 and you will see a lot of women come in and
:04:03. > :04:09.a lot of younger men. We will find there will be a lot of resignations.
:04:10. > :04:15.A lot of, dear Prime Minister, as I told you 18 months ago, I want to
:04:16. > :04:20.move on. Because the Conservatives have this perception of not being
:04:21. > :04:25.very good with women and not being good with black and ethnic minority
:04:26. > :04:31.voters, they are going to want to do something about that. Why did he not
:04:32. > :04:37.do it before? This reshuffle might be the triumph of the a list. A lot
:04:38. > :04:42.of the women coming through the ranks have been from the a list
:04:43. > :04:47.which was a half measure because they knew they could not bring all
:04:48. > :04:52.of them in. You are going to see more women but that is a result of a
:04:53. > :04:57.long-term strategy. David Cameron is not the world's most raging
:04:58. > :05:01.feminist. He is doing this for practical reasons. He knows he has
:05:02. > :05:11.an image problem for the party and he has to solve it. He was stung by
:05:12. > :05:14.that picture of the all-male bench at Prime Minister's Questions
:05:15. > :05:20.because visibly it gave you the problem that you have been talking
:05:21. > :05:24.about. I do not think he has allowed it to be all-male since that
:05:25. > :05:28.embarrassing image. I can understand the criticism made of this approach
:05:29. > :05:34.if it was the case that all the women being promoted by talentless
:05:35. > :05:40.but you have to be very harsh to look at them and say that they would
:05:41. > :05:52.have much less to offer than the likes of Andrew Lansley. You can be
:05:53. > :05:55.pro-feminist. The tests for David Cameron is that having raised
:05:56. > :06:00.expectations he has to give them substantial jobs. They have to be
:06:01. > :06:05.given departments to run or big portfolios to carry. If they are
:06:06. > :06:10.given media campaign positions in the run-up to the election it looks
:06:11. > :06:15.perfunctorily. He is under some trouble to perhaps suggest a female
:06:16. > :06:24.commissioner to the European Union Commission. Jean-Claude Juncker has
:06:25. > :06:30.made clear that if he proposes a woman candidate they will get a
:06:31. > :06:37.better job. Saying they would like ten out of the 28 to be women. We
:06:38. > :06:43.are going to get the name of the British candidate at the same time
:06:44. > :06:49.as the reshuffle. The first face-to-face meeting, he will be
:06:50. > :06:56.able to put a name. There are other names in the frame. People like
:06:57. > :07:05.Archie Norman. That come from? His name is in the frame. There would be
:07:06. > :07:08.great scepticism of giving it to Andrew Lansley. People would think
:07:09. > :07:17.he was the man who mucked up the reform of the NHS. Who is it going
:07:18. > :07:22.to be? Either a woman or a man. I would not be surprised if they go
:07:23. > :07:29.for someone believe dynamic. Someone who would square the party. Would
:07:30. > :07:36.that not mean a by-election? It might. She is a high profile
:07:37. > :07:40.Eurosceptic. She is a very competent former banker. It would be the smart
:07:41. > :07:42.choice. I have no idea but my favourite rumour is Michael Howard.
:07:43. > :07:50.That had some legs for a while. The Mystic Megs of Fleet Street
:07:51. > :07:55.predict with confidence that the PM is going to promote more women
:07:56. > :07:56.in his cabinet reshuffle. The move can be seen as part
:07:57. > :08:00.of a move across British public life to do more to make our institutions
:08:01. > :08:03.less male and less white. But as the list
:08:04. > :08:05.of schemes to encourage diversity grows ever-longer, have we abandoned
:08:06. > :08:20.the idea of appointment by merit? Tunnelling. Hard hats, and all for
:08:21. > :08:25.new trains. It does not get more macho than the Crossrail project.
:08:26. > :08:26.When Crossrail looked at the construction industry they realise
:08:27. > :08:38.that less than 20% was made up construction industry they realise
:08:39. > :08:39.women and they asked, can we fix it? They are trying with a recruitment
:08:40. > :08:46.drive that has brought in female engineers like this woman. She even
:08:47. > :08:50.has a tunnel named after her. Having more female engineers and
:08:51. > :08:56.construction brings a bigger range of opinions, a bigger range of
:08:57. > :09:01.ideas, more diversity, into the industry, and makes it better as a
:09:02. > :09:04.whole. It is the issue being grappled in another male dominated
:09:05. > :09:08.workplace, the Cabinet. There is about to be a reach shuffle and the
:09:09. > :09:12.rumour is David Cameron is going to promote a lot of female ministers.
:09:13. > :09:18.It was a lack of promotion that annoyed Harriet Harman this week.
:09:19. > :09:22.She claimed Gordon Brown did not make her Deputy Prime Minister
:09:23. > :09:25.because she was a woman. It was strange that in a hard-fought highly
:09:26. > :09:30.contested election to be deputy leader of the Labour Party, and
:09:31. > :09:34.having won against men in the Cabinet, to succeed to be deputy
:09:35. > :09:39.leader of the Labour Party I discovered that I was not to be
:09:40. > :09:43.appointed as Deputy Prime Minister. For women in this country, no matter
:09:44. > :09:49.how able they are, the matter how hard they might work, they are still
:09:50. > :09:54.not equal. There are initiatives to make the world feel more equal. In
:09:55. > :09:59.the City the EU wants a quarter for women in the boardroom but that goal
:10:00. > :10:04.of making 40% of the top floor female. At the BBC the boss of the
:10:05. > :10:10.TV division says no panel show should ever be all-male. In the ever
:10:11. > :10:14.glamorous movie business the British film Institute announced their new
:10:15. > :10:20.thematic system to get lottery funding projects improving diversity
:10:21. > :10:28.on screen and off and helping social mobility. Employers like Crossrail
:10:29. > :10:32.are not allowed to positively discriminate but under the quality
:10:33. > :10:36.act of 2010 if two candidate for a job are just as good you are allowed
:10:37. > :10:41.to base your decision on characteristics like race, sexuality
:10:42. > :10:48.and gender. Some worry it has chipped away at the idea of hiring
:10:49. > :10:53.on merit. A woman and three men going for a job, two of the men are
:10:54. > :10:57.really good and the woman is not quite as good but she gets the job
:10:58. > :11:04.anyway. That will create injustice, a feeling that she did not deserve
:11:05. > :11:14.the job, resentment. It does not advance equality in society at all.
:11:15. > :11:18.On this project they want to leave a concrete legacy of a more diverse
:11:19. > :11:20.construction industry. The question is, what tools do you use when it
:11:21. > :11:31.comes to the rest of society? I'm joined now by
:11:32. > :11:32.Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, a columnist for the Independent,
:11:33. > :11:35.and by Munira Mirza, the deputy mayor of London responsible
:11:36. > :11:48.for education and culture. Cabinet wee shovel coming up punches
:11:49. > :11:55.though. Should David Cameron be promoting women? He is going to do
:11:56. > :12:00.it anyway. He should have a long time ago. It does not feel quite
:12:01. > :12:06.right that a few months before the election it would do the party a lot
:12:07. > :12:11.of good to be seen as a party properly reflective of the entire
:12:12. > :12:15.population. He should promote women because they are women? I think he
:12:16. > :12:18.should think about lots of different factors, whether the people he wants
:12:19. > :12:25.promote have proven themselves in their current reefs, whether they
:12:26. > :12:30.are good performers in the media, whether they represent different
:12:31. > :12:34.parts of the party, but the main principle is to promote on basis of
:12:35. > :12:39.merit. There are many talented women who fill that description. It should
:12:40. > :12:43.be that merit is the important thing rather than what you were born with.
:12:44. > :12:47.The thing about positive discrimination as it flies in the
:12:48. > :12:52.face of that kind of principle. You are shaking your head. We have
:12:53. > :12:59.always had positive discrimination. Men of a certain class have
:13:00. > :13:04.appointed in their own image because they feel most comfortable with
:13:05. > :13:06.that. We have had unspoken positive discrimination in this country and
:13:07. > :13:11.every other country throughout history. We are asking as women,
:13:12. > :13:13.every other country throughout history. We are asking as women all
:13:14. > :13:19.minorities, let us get into the same game. What do you say? You cannot
:13:20. > :13:25.solve the racism or the sexism of the past by more racism and sexism.
:13:26. > :13:29.It is not the past. There are complex reasons why a smaller number
:13:30. > :13:35.of women will appear in certain industries. It has a lot to do with
:13:36. > :13:39.childcare, education, expected. You cannot short cut that by setting a
:13:40. > :13:43.target. That is not how you achieve equality. Things are changing and
:13:44. > :13:48.more women are appearing in engineering and so on but it will
:13:49. > :13:50.take time. My worry is that these kinds of measures are
:13:51. > :13:52.counter-productive and undermine the perception that women can do it on
:13:53. > :13:54.their own merit rather counter-productive and undermine the
:13:55. > :14:00.perception that women can do it than because they need a helping hand. It
:14:01. > :14:10.is not a helping hand. It is to say, we are as good as men and these
:14:11. > :14:12.hidden barriers. Dot. Either they are not as good or they do not want
:14:13. > :14:17.it, which is just how we persuade are not as good or they do not want
:14:18. > :14:21.it, which ourselves that it is not happening, or there are barriers.
:14:22. > :14:30.How we judge meritocracy is at the heart of it. Are lots of industries
:14:31. > :14:36.won there are not that many women, such as engineering. We need more
:14:37. > :14:42.engineers generally. I think it is fine to try to encourage more women
:14:43. > :14:50.to study that subject. By setting a target you put pressure on an
:14:51. > :15:11.organisation. You tried to ignore the complex reasons why women do not
:15:12. > :15:21.go into those sectors. I think an all-female short list achieved
:15:22. > :15:25.miracle in Parliament. This is following up from having an
:15:26. > :15:28.injection of women coming up because the system was changed and a large
:15:29. > :15:35.percentage of women went into Parliament under the all-female
:15:36. > :15:43.short list were brilliant, so why not? So if the Prime Minister is
:15:44. > :15:50.mailed the Deputy Prime Minister has to be female and vice versa? Yes,
:15:51. > :16:00.absolutely, 50-50. We need to reflect the population. If we want
:16:01. > :16:05.to play this as a symbolic gesture, ideally we should have one of each.
:16:06. > :16:11.Why should a man get the job if you have a great female prime minister
:16:12. > :16:18.and a great female Deputy Prime Minister? I personally wouldn't mind
:16:19. > :16:28.this. I hear the disgruntled man and I want to come -- them to come with
:16:29. > :16:33.us. You're choosing people on the basis of traits they were born
:16:34. > :16:39.with. Are there too many Indian doctors in the NHS? I would argue
:16:40. > :16:43.not. Given that we tend to have male prime ministers rather than female
:16:44. > :16:50.ones, and we don't see another female one coming down the pipe very
:16:51. > :16:57.quickly... In the time before women short lists by the way. If you had a
:16:58. > :17:03.male prime minister with a female Deputy Prime Minister, wouldn't that
:17:04. > :17:08.give some balance? Why women? Why not working class person, which
:17:09. > :17:12.group do you prioritise? I would go with you that we need something
:17:13. > :17:17.fundamental to change. This idea that what we have now is a
:17:18. > :17:21.reflection of a genuine meritocracy is highly questionable. I would
:17:22. > :17:23.argue that when you look at the statistics things are changing.
:17:24. > :17:26.argue that when you look at the statistics things There are more
:17:27. > :17:28.women appearing in parts of public life, that is a long-term trend,
:17:29. > :17:34.women appearing in parts of public life, that is a long-term trend but
:17:35. > :17:38.if you are trying to appoint people on what they were born with... That
:17:39. > :17:42.is not the only reason but it is an additional reason. She has to be
:17:43. > :17:48.able to do the job, obviously. I am saying the policy of hazard to
:17:49. > :17:52.discrimination explicitly state that you should choose somebody who is
:17:53. > :17:56.female because they are female. At the moment there is already enough
:17:57. > :18:03.suspicion about women who are successful to get to the senior
:18:04. > :18:04.position and if you institutionalise it you reinforce that suspicion.
:18:05. > :18:11.it you reinforce that suspicion Harriet Harman is still complaining
:18:12. > :18:15.women are not being treated fairly. I think the policy reinforces the
:18:16. > :18:21.prejudice that women are not getting there because they are treated on
:18:22. > :18:25.the same basis. Although you may not want to have the all-female short
:18:26. > :18:30.list forever, wasn't it the kind of shock to the system that made a
:18:31. > :18:38.visible change in female representation, which the Tory side
:18:39. > :18:43.hasn't got? Of course it will work short-term but longer term it has a
:18:44. > :18:47.very degrading effect on the principle of equality and the fact
:18:48. > :18:51.Harriet Harman is saying she wasn't treated equally, whether it is true
:18:52. > :19:00.or not, the perception is still there. A number of women find this
:19:01. > :19:05.position must be reserved for a woman lying patronising, and
:19:06. > :19:13.speaking of patronising women, you spoken your Independent column, she
:19:14. > :19:18.presses all of the buttons for white people... Was that patronising and
:19:19. > :19:23.offensive? Probably. I wrote it because I felt that at the time but
:19:24. > :19:30.the point is that I was a token when I was appointed. The paper brought
:19:31. > :19:35.me in because I was a woman and I was a muslin or whatever. You are
:19:36. > :19:48.not writing about yourself. I was writing... It doesn't mean you don't
:19:49. > :19:56.criticise other women. We absolutely have to be tough, Manira is tough
:19:57. > :20:02.and so am I. Do you want to take back what you wrote? No. Do you
:20:03. > :20:10.really think positive discrimination has gone too far? I think there is
:20:11. > :20:14.already a suspicion out there that in certain sectors women are being
:20:15. > :20:18.promoted for the wrong reasons or ethnic minorities are being promoted
:20:19. > :20:24.for the wrong reasons. That is a shame and my worry is that by tying
:20:25. > :20:27.funding to your ethnicity or your gender, by saying you will get a
:20:28. > :20:31.promotion if you check that box, but promotion if you check that box but
:20:32. > :20:41.you feel that resentment and prejudice and undermine the case for
:20:42. > :20:47.inequality. I wanted to be treated equally, because I am capable of
:20:48. > :20:56.doing that job. Only two months to go before Scotland takes its biggest
:20:57. > :21:01.constitutional decision in 300 years - should it quit or stay with the
:21:02. > :21:06.UK? For some in Scotland campaign has been going on forever. What has
:21:07. > :21:12.been the impact on the campaign to date?
:21:13. > :21:17.Alex Salmond says Scotland would remain part of the European Union
:21:18. > :21:22.with sterling as its currency in a monetary union with the rest of the
:21:23. > :21:28.UK, but he has also promised more public spending, increased child
:21:29. > :21:35.care provision and free personal care for the elderly. The SNP claims
:21:36. > :21:41.it would leave people better off by ?1000 though that partly depends on
:21:42. > :21:47.the price of oil. With the Better Together arguing against
:21:48. > :21:48.independence, it has naturally been attacking the SNP on all fronts.
:21:49. > :21:56.attacking the SNP on all fronts George Osborne says there will be no
:21:57. > :22:00.monetary union. President Barroso told the BBC it would be extremely
:22:01. > :22:11.difficult for Scotland to join the EU after a yes vote. His successor
:22:12. > :22:21.this week said he agreed. Unions claim Scotland benefit by ?1400 by
:22:22. > :22:27.being part of the UK. A poll this morning shows a significant lead of
:22:28. > :22:34.57% for the no campaign, leaving the SNP to claim it will go their way in
:22:35. > :22:38.the last ten weeks. Nicola Sturgeon, the Deputy First Minister of
:22:39. > :22:44.Scotland, joins me now. You want an independent Scotland to keep the
:22:45. > :22:49.pound, stay in NATO, stay in the EU, Scotland already has all of that
:22:50. > :22:56.but you cannot guarantee it would have any of it in an independent
:22:57. > :23:00.Scotland, why take the risk? All of these things should be the case
:23:01. > :23:06.because they are in the best interests of Scotland and the rest
:23:07. > :23:12.of the UK but we want the powers to enable us to grow our economy
:23:13. > :23:17.faster, to be productive, and overtime increased the prosperity of
:23:18. > :23:21.people living in Scotland. We also want powers over our social security
:23:22. > :23:28.system so that we can create a system that meets our needs, one
:23:29. > :23:32.that also has a safety net for the most vulnerable people in our
:23:33. > :23:38.society. Independence is about letting us decide our own
:23:39. > :23:42.priorities. You didn't answer my question, you cannot guarantee you
:23:43. > :23:48.would be able to keep the pound within a monetary union, stay in
:23:49. > :23:53.NATO and the EU, you cannot guarantee you could produce any of
:23:54. > :23:58.these things, correct? I would argue that we can because these things are
:23:59. > :24:03.also in the interest of the rest of the UK. No country can be prevented
:24:04. > :24:08.from using the pound, I suggest we use that within a formal monetary
:24:09. > :24:12.union. We have had the UK minister quoted in the Guardian saying the
:24:13. > :24:17.position of the UK Government right now is one based on campaign
:24:18. > :24:24.rhetoric and following a yes vote, of course there would be a currency
:24:25. > :24:29.union. Who is that minister? The Minister is unnamed, but
:24:30. > :24:34.nevertheless that story in the Guardian was a solid one and not
:24:35. > :24:39.substantially denied. So you are basing your monetary policy on one
:24:40. > :24:49.on named minister in one story? Basing it on Common sense because
:24:50. > :24:52.monetary union would be in the best interests for Scotland but also
:24:53. > :24:58.overwhelmingly in the interests of the rest of the UK, given their
:24:59. > :25:06.trading relationship with Scotland and the contribution Scotland's
:25:07. > :25:11.exports make. We are having a very good debate and the UK Government
:25:12. > :25:20.and the no campaign, and this is not a criticism, want to talk up in --
:25:21. > :25:26.uncertainty to make people feel scared, but after independence there
:25:27. > :25:29.will be constructed process of negotiation. Let's stick with the
:25:30. > :25:33.monetary union because most economists agree it would be very
:25:34. > :25:38.good for an independent Scotland to have a monetary union but George
:25:39. > :25:43.Osborne, Ed Balls, Danny Alexander are unequivocal, they say you won't
:25:44. > :25:49.get it. You claim they are bluffing but again you cannot guarantee that
:25:50. > :25:53.so why the risk? I would say the benefits of independence are
:25:54. > :25:57.substantial but I would also say to George Osborne and his counterparts
:25:58. > :26:01.in the other parties that it would be a very brave Chancellor that says
:26:02. > :26:06.to businesses in the rest of the UK that they have to incur unnecessary
:26:07. > :26:09.additional transaction costs of half a very brave Chancellor that says to
:26:10. > :26:12.businesses in the rest of the UK that they have to incur unnecessary
:26:13. > :26:18.additional transaction costs of half. What we are doing is making a
:26:19. > :26:22.case that is based on common sense and voters in Scotland will listen
:26:23. > :26:27.to that case being put forward by the other side as well, and they
:26:28. > :26:35.will come to a judgement of the common-sense position. Let's look at
:26:36. > :26:44.EU membership because you haven't been able to guarantee the monetary
:26:45. > :26:48.union. When President Barroso said that a seamless transition to EU
:26:49. > :26:53.membership for an independent Scotland was anything but certain,
:26:54. > :26:59.and one said it could even be impossible, you dismissed him
:27:00. > :27:08.because he was standing down, but been -- venue EU president says the
:27:09. > :27:13.same, do you dismissed him? What we are doing... I should say at the
:27:14. > :27:17.outset of this, we have said repeatedly to the UK Government,
:27:18. > :27:22.let's go jointly and ask for a formal opinion on the EU
:27:23. > :27:28.commission. The EU commission have said they will only do that at this
:27:29. > :27:35.stage if the UK Government ask for it, they are point blank refusing to
:27:36. > :27:40.do that, you have to ask why? It is in their interests to talk up
:27:41. > :27:44.uncertainty. Scotland is an integral part of the European Union, we have
:27:45. > :27:51.been for 40 years, we comply with the rules and regulations... Mr
:27:52. > :27:57.Juncker knows all of that but he still says it will be anything but a
:27:58. > :28:02.seamless transition. He said you could not join the European Union by
:28:03. > :28:15.sending a letter, that is not our proposal. We set down a robust
:28:16. > :28:20.proposal and the timescale we think is reasonable under these
:28:21. > :28:25.circumstances. There are many nationals of other states living in
:28:26. > :28:29.Scotland right now, if we were to be outside of the European Union for
:28:30. > :28:33.any period of time, something the current treaty doesn't even provide
:28:34. > :28:38.for, they would lose their right to stay here. The interests of Scotland
:28:39. > :28:43.and the interests of European Union are in favour of a seamless
:28:44. > :28:45.transition. It comes down to common sense and people in Scotland will
:28:46. > :28:47.make sense and people in Scotland will
:28:48. > :28:54.their own judgement on who is talking the common-sense. What about
:28:55. > :28:59.NATO, two years ago you told Newsnight the SNP's position is that
:29:00. > :29:05.we wouldn't stay in NATO. We had a democratic debate, we looked at
:29:06. > :29:08.whether it would be in the interests of an independent Scotland, which
:29:09. > :29:17.forms a significant part of the territory of the North Atlantic and
:29:18. > :29:25.the party changed its mind. It did so in a thoroughly democratic way.
:29:26. > :29:36.That is the nature of democracy. Would you accept the protection of
:29:37. > :29:41.the NATO nuclear umbrella? There is no doubt the SNP's position is that
:29:42. > :29:48.we do not want nuclear weapons in Scotland. That is not what I asked.
:29:49. > :29:53.The world rid themselves of nuclear weapons. One of the interesting
:29:54. > :29:59.point is of the 28 member countries of Natal 25 do not have nuclear
:30:00. > :30:09.weapons. An independent Scotland... I asked if you would accept the
:30:10. > :30:15.nuclear umbrella. The key feature of NATO's military dog train is now
:30:16. > :30:23.clear shrike. We would accept the basis of which NATO is founded but
:30:24. > :30:26.we would argue two things. We want Trident removed from Scotland rather
:30:27. > :30:31.than have a situation where might we are spending ?100 billion over the
:30:32. > :30:33.next generation replacing Trident and we would argue within the
:30:34. > :30:40.international community that the world should move much more quickly
:30:41. > :30:42.to rid itself of nuclear weapons. That is the principal position and
:30:43. > :30:50.won the SNP has held consistently for many years. You would get rid of
:30:51. > :30:55.one of the key parts of the NATO deterrent based in Scotland. You
:30:56. > :31:00.would kick that out. You would not accept all of the club rules because
:31:01. > :31:06.you do not like the idea of nuclear. Why would they like a member like
:31:07. > :31:09.you in? Because Scotland is a significant part of the territory of
:31:10. > :31:14.the North Atlantic. You do not subscribe to the rules. 25 of the
:31:15. > :31:23.member states of NATO are non-nuclear members. You are saying
:31:24. > :31:28.you do not follow the doctrine. NATO has said it wants to move away from
:31:29. > :31:32.reliance on nuclear weapons. An independent Scotland would be
:31:33. > :31:37.entering the majority mainstream of NATO as a country that did not have
:31:38. > :31:41.nuclear weapons. By leading by example our moral authority and
:31:42. > :31:47.encouraging others to do likewise would be increased. Money and oil,
:31:48. > :31:50.the finance minister has said that an independent Scotland would
:31:51. > :31:55.increase public spending by 3% a year. He would pay for that by
:31:56. > :32:00.borrowing. Your First Minister says he is going to stash money in an oil
:32:01. > :32:09.fund. You're going to borrow and save. How does that work? There are
:32:10. > :32:11.two points. Firstly in terms of the outlook for finances and what is one
:32:12. > :32:16.of the central debates of this referendum campaign, austerity that
:32:17. > :32:23.we know will continue if we stay as part of the Westminster system
:32:24. > :32:27.versus prosperity. The economy can afford a higher level of increase in
:32:28. > :32:33.public spending while we continue to have deficit levels at a sustainable
:32:34. > :32:38.level. What is the point of borrowing and saving at the same
:32:39. > :32:40.time? People who have a mortgage and the savings account would not
:32:41. > :32:47.themselves what the wisdom of that is. This is based on recommendations
:32:48. > :32:53.of our expert fiscal Commission that as borrowing reduces to sustainable
:32:54. > :32:57.levels it makes sense to start saving a proportion of our oil
:32:58. > :33:03.wealth. In Norway, which has many similarities to Scotland, they have
:33:04. > :33:09.an oil fund worth ?500 billion. Scotland is part of the Westminster
:33:10. > :33:15.system is sitting on a share of UK debt. We can continue to allow our
:33:16. > :33:19.oil wealth, our vast oil wealth, to be mismanaged or we can decide we
:33:20. > :33:25.are going to manage that resource better in the years to come. Your
:33:26. > :33:29.figures do not add up unless you are about oil prices and revenue and you
:33:30. > :33:33.have been consistently wrong in your predictions. Last year you forecast
:33:34. > :33:42.that revenues would be the .7 billion more than they actually work
:33:43. > :33:48.-- 3.7 billion. The cost of the Scottish school system gone. There
:33:49. > :33:50.were particular reasons for that in terms of interruption to production
:33:51. > :33:54.and bigger levels of investment. and bigger levels of investment
:33:55. > :34:00.Used ill have to find the money. Let me explain. They are based on robust
:34:01. > :34:04.assumptions, firstly a production estimates that is in line with the
:34:05. > :34:08.estimates of the oil and gas industry. Use of figures that are
:34:09. > :34:15.based on production of 10 billion barrels of oil. Oil and gas has been
:34:16. > :34:21.wrong as well. It is 24 billion left to be recovered. That is what is in
:34:22. > :34:27.the UK Government's oil and gas strategy so production in line with
:34:28. > :34:31.industry estimates and an oil price of $110 per barrel which is flat in
:34:32. > :34:38.cash terms would be a real terms reduction. The Department of energy
:34:39. > :34:42.is estimating $128 per barrel so our estimate compared to that is
:34:43. > :34:49.cautious. These are robust estimates based on robust assumptions. Except
:34:50. > :34:55.they have been wrong. Finally, we hear a lot from you and your fellow
:34:56. > :35:00.nationalists, you want a Scandinavian style social democracy,
:35:01. > :35:04.you know how to spend the money but you never tell us about social
:35:05. > :35:08.democratic levels of taxation. Also should grizzlies have higher levels
:35:09. > :35:14.of tax in Scotland does at the moment -- all social grizzlies. I
:35:15. > :35:21.want a Scottish style of social democracy. Free education, free
:35:22. > :35:26.medicines and balancing the books every single year. We want to get
:35:27. > :35:30.more people into work in Scotland, raise the level of distribution in
:35:31. > :35:33.the Labour market and make the economy more productive so we are
:35:34. > :35:39.raising the overall tax revenue. Over the last 33 years we have
:35:40. > :35:47.generated more taxpayer head of population than is the case and the
:35:48. > :35:51.rest of the UK. Those last 33 years, some of those years oil prices would
:35:52. > :35:55.have been high and in others they would have been law but we take
:35:56. > :35:59.different decisions. A report showed that if we go as part of the
:36:00. > :36:06.Westminster system down the plate -- route of replacing Trident then the
:36:07. > :36:11.cost will be as high as ?4 billion every year. Our share of that is the
:36:12. > :36:16.hundred million pounds a year. Let us get access to our own resources
:36:17. > :36:19.so we can make different and better decisions about how to spend the
:36:20. > :36:25.resources we have. You are promising Scandinavian style social democratic
:36:26. > :36:29.levels of public spending but you say you will not need a top rate of
:36:30. > :36:39.tax of 56% which is what Scandinavia has, that all 25%, which is what
:36:40. > :36:42.Scandinavia has and VAT of 15%. You are going to have the spending but
:36:43. > :36:49.none of the taxes that make it possible in Scandinavia. For
:36:50. > :36:54.mischievous reasons you are met -- misrepresenting what I am saying.
:36:55. > :36:59.The Scottish economy can afford it and we want to generate more wealth
:37:00. > :37:04.in our economy. We want to use the existing resources Scotland has. We
:37:05. > :37:08.are the 14th richest country in the world in terms of what we produce.
:37:09. > :37:12.We do not want to be wasting resources. We want to be spending
:37:13. > :37:17.resources on the things that other priority for the people of Scotland.
:37:18. > :37:21.These are the benefits and the opportunities really get if we take
:37:22. > :37:32.the opportunity of voting yes and becoming independent.
:37:33. > :37:44.Hello and a very warm welcome to your local
:37:45. > :37:47.part of the show in a week that's seen council staff, firefighters
:37:48. > :37:52.I'll be asking my guests ` the Labour candidate for
:37:53. > :37:55.Redcar Anna Turley and Yorkshire Euro`MP Timothy Kirkhope ` hf they
:37:56. > :38:03.Trouble at the Co`op ` after the near`collapse of the bank,
:38:04. > :38:07.what's the future for the whder Co`operative movement in the region?
:38:08. > :38:09.Let's start with the trade unions, celebrating their history
:38:10. > :38:12.at the 130th Durham Gala on Saturday ` at the end of a week
:38:13. > :38:15.when several of the biggest unions took industrial action.
:38:16. > :38:18.This was the scene in Newcastle on Thursday
:38:19. > :38:21.as public sector workers marched to a rally in the city centre.
:38:22. > :38:25.The GMB, Unite, UNISON and the Public and Commercial Sdrvices
:38:26. > :38:30.They say their earnings have fallen back to
:38:31. > :38:35.While the National Union of Teachers and Fire Brigades Union werd also
:38:36. > :38:43.protesting against changes to their working conditions and penshons
:38:44. > :38:45.I have been working as a care worker for 15 years.
:38:46. > :38:48.We have seen a big disparity between the pay that a norm`l care
:38:49. > :38:55.worker receives and what your better paid senior managers will bd paid.
:38:56. > :38:58.If you want to attract professional people into the services as
:38:59. > :39:03.important as what we do, thdn you have got to pay people proper money.
:39:04. > :39:05.It is as simple as that, otherwise standards are absolutely
:39:06. > :39:12.I haven't had a pay rise for about four years , I think.
:39:13. > :39:16.Basically it has stayed the same and the cost of living has gone up
:39:17. > :39:24.I've come along because I'm worried about the privatisation of schools.
:39:25. > :39:28.I'm worried teachers' pay has been eroded and it has a detrimental
:39:29. > :39:36.I am a firefighter and the problem is I have to take a
:39:37. > :39:43.If I don't pass that medical in the years leading up to 60,
:39:44. > :39:47.I'm just going to be sacked and never get my pension.
:39:48. > :39:54.The government is saying they have to deal with changes to
:39:55. > :39:59.Life is getting tougher for everybody, they say.
:40:00. > :40:03.We still have to fight for what we believe in
:40:04. > :40:16.and what we deserve, and evdrybody should be doing the same thing.
:40:17. > :40:20.They are protesting because their standard of living is deteriorating.
:40:21. > :40:24.standard of living is deterhorating. Fair enough? No. We inherited
:40:25. > :40:26.standard of living is deteriorating. Fair enough? No. We inheritdd a
:40:27. > :40:30.recession in 2010 from the previous Labour government. We have put in
:40:31. > :40:32.place measures in the last four years. They are protesting because
:40:33. > :40:33.their standard of living is deteriorating. Fair enough? No. We
:40:34. > :40:34.inherited a recession in 2000 from inherited a recession in 2010 from
:40:35. > :40:35.the previous Labour governmdnt. We the previous Labour government. We
:40:36. > :40:38.have put in place measures hn the have put in place measures in the
:40:39. > :40:40.last four years. Particularly in the North of England. I think there are
:40:41. > :40:46.small businesses and individuals who are on fixed incomes and so on. They
:40:47. > :40:47.are continuing to work and to contribute and I think to withdraw
:40:48. > :40:50.contribute and I think to whthdraw services in this way is not
:40:51. > :40:55.responsible. These aren't fat cats. responsible. These aren't fat cats.
:40:56. > :41:00.They are low paid workers. Let's take a care worker. Why not pay them
:41:01. > :41:05.a decent wage rather than seeing them with bills going up. The key
:41:06. > :41:07.point is to retain people in jobs and not to lose jobs. If th`t means
:41:08. > :41:15.and not to lose jobs. If that means we cannot give large pay increases
:41:16. > :41:22.then I think that is the better situation. I want to make sure...
:41:23. > :41:24.They didn't cause the recession. I fully appreciate that our pdople
:41:25. > :41:24.They didn't cause the recession I fully appreciate that our people on
:41:25. > :41:28.fully appreciate that our pdople on low pay and that is why the tax
:41:29. > :41:30.system has been adjusted to try help them. I don't think the acthon we
:41:31. > :41:34.them. I don't think the action we saw this week really contribute an
:41:35. > :41:39.awful lot to an understanding by the public or indeed to the goodwill,
:41:40. > :41:44.which I think we need to continue to have in terms of negotiations and
:41:45. > :41:50.the position they hold. Some Labour MPs have been supportive of this.
:41:51. > :41:54.Some have been silent. I support them. It was disappointing to have a
:41:55. > :41:57.strike because we don't want to get to that point. But we are t`lking
:41:58. > :42:04.to that point. But we are talking about hard`working people. We are
:42:05. > :42:09.talking about assistants. They have had to put up with four years of
:42:10. > :42:12.redundancies, restructures, low pay and their wages being frozen. They
:42:13. > :42:14.have a right to withhold their have a right to withhold thdir
:42:15. > :42:17.labour. A lot of people I've spoken labour. A lot of people I'vd spoken
:42:18. > :42:19.to are sympathetic because they value their services. They have seen
:42:20. > :42:23.the impact of the cuts and ly the impact of the cuts and my
:42:24. > :42:25.colleague talked about trying to preserve job losses. We have
:42:26. > :42:28.colleague talked about trying to preserve job losses. We havd lost
:42:29. > :42:30.49,000 people in the public sector, enough to fill a stadium. Given
:42:31. > :42:30.49,000 people in the public sector, enough to fill a stadium. Ghven year
:42:31. > :42:33.enough to fill a stadium. Given year and said that, if you becomd
:42:34. > :42:33.enough to fill a stadium. Ghven year and said that, if you become a
:42:34. > :42:34.enough to fill a stadium. Given year and said that, if you becomd a MP,
:42:35. > :42:40.you'll be pushing hard to give them you'll be pushing hard to give them
:42:41. > :42:44.more than 1%. I would like to see that. It is important we value our
:42:45. > :42:47.public sector. I don't want to see a fight between the public and private
:42:48. > :42:49.sector. Where does the money fight between the public and private
:42:50. > :42:51.sector. Where does the money come from? There are a number of
:42:52. > :42:55.different ways we can find money. different ways we can find money.
:42:56. > :43:01.Let's not give tax cuts to millionaires. We have seen the
:43:02. > :43:12.government giving dips away to those at the top. `` gifts. He knows the
:43:13. > :43:16.difficulties the economy has gone through. The responsible politicians
:43:17. > :43:19.should be asking for restrahnt in the exercise, rather than some be
:43:20. > :43:22.talking about trying to find money from a few very rich people in order
:43:23. > :43:27.to paper this. It is not re`listic. to paper this. It is not re`listic.
:43:28. > :43:32.I think the whole attitude taken by some other unions, a small
:43:33. > :43:37.majority, will quite derisory to call the strikes. That is
:43:38. > :43:42.responsible. It has put a lot of people in inconvenience. We're not
:43:43. > :43:47.talking about splurging into the public sector, we are talking about
:43:48. > :43:51.a decent salary. The gap between the income and inflation is the biggest
:43:52. > :43:53.it has been 50 years. We have not treated people properly. It is not
:43:54. > :43:55.extravagant to get them enough extravagant to get them enotgh
:43:56. > :43:58.money. Well Clare Williams is from Unison `
:43:59. > :44:07.one of the unions involved You may convince yourself this
:44:08. > :44:09.strike was supportive, your members aren't going to get any mord
:44:10. > :44:09.strike was supportive, your members aren't going to get any more out
:44:10. > :44:11.strike was supportive, your members aren't going to get any mord out of
:44:12. > :44:14.it. The government is clear it can't give you any more so it is `
:44:15. > :44:14.it. The government is clear it can't give you any more so it is a waste
:44:15. > :44:19.give you any more so it is ` waste of time. I don't think it is a waste
:44:20. > :44:20.of time. I don't accept the argument the government can't afford to give
:44:21. > :44:25.public sector is a decent p`y rise. public sector is a decent p`y rise.
:44:26. > :44:30.It is a political decision to have public sector pay restraint. We have
:44:31. > :44:39.seen public sector workers have pay cuts, pay freezes. They offer
:44:40. > :44:46.currently not enough money. There is a direct correlation between the
:44:47. > :44:50.significant growth in a word poverty and region such as ours having some
:44:51. > :44:56.of the highest levels of people needing food banks and using payday
:44:57. > :45:08.loans. That is no coincidence. Some would say wake up and smell the
:45:09. > :45:16.copy. `` Coffey. I don't believe... I don't think a 1% increase is a big
:45:17. > :45:21.pay rise. Even a 1% pay rise will not shrink the gap that has been
:45:22. > :45:24.growing. The reality is that in real terms public sector wages h`ve
:45:25. > :45:27.fallen significantly behind the cost of living rises and people `re
:45:28. > :45:30.of living rises and people are struggling. The reality is that that
:45:31. > :45:32.means that as a human impact on people being able to survivd
:45:33. > :45:33.financially and provide their financially and provide thehr
:45:34. > :45:36.families, but there's also economic families, but there's also economic
:45:37. > :45:40.impact. If we want to talk `bout impact. If we want to talk about
:45:41. > :45:42.steamers were private sector and the region, public sector workers spend
:45:43. > :45:44.about two thirds of their w`ges region, public sector workers spend
:45:45. > :45:49.about two thirds of their wages in the economy. Do you expect to hold
:45:50. > :46:00.public support that if you continue to strike? If you're seeing funerals
:46:01. > :46:01.cancelled, will the public by that? Where the responsibility for the
:46:02. > :46:06.strikes lie is with the government. strikes lie is with the government.
:46:07. > :46:10.This is a political decision to impose pay restraints. Public
:46:11. > :46:12.This is a political decision to impose pay restraints. Publhc sector
:46:13. > :46:16.workers understand better than anyone the need for public services.
:46:17. > :46:18.We are not the people cutting public services at a rate in our rdgion and
:46:19. > :46:20.services at a rate in our region and we understand the impact th`t
:46:21. > :46:21.services at a rate in our rdgion and we understand the impact that has on
:46:22. > :46:22.we understand the impact th`t has on people. Public sector workers don't
:46:23. > :46:27.take strike action lightly `nd we take strike action lightly and we
:46:28. > :46:31.haven't been going on strikd frequently. The reality is that
:46:32. > :46:51.because the government was negotiate, people have been forced
:46:52. > :46:53.into this. Shirley these ballots `` surely... They don't even have a
:46:54. > :46:58.surely... They don't even h`ve a democratic mandate. David Cameron
:46:59. > :47:05.democratic mandate. David C`meron was elected on a mandate of no more
:47:06. > :47:08.reorganisations of NHS and has done the opposite. If we are talking
:47:09. > :47:14.about where we could get money from to give them a pay rise, we could
:47:15. > :47:18.save billions every haven't had done that reorganisation. Public sector
:47:19. > :47:22.workers, through their democratic rights, took a decision and they
:47:23. > :47:24.went on strike. We will come back to went on strike. We will comd back to
:47:25. > :47:26.that. Now to the Local Growth Deal that
:47:27. > :47:29.the Government sealed this week and that could deliver hundreds
:47:30. > :47:31.of millions of pounds 39 Local Enterprise Partnerships bid
:47:32. > :47:35.for money and the North East's got the third largest amount
:47:36. > :47:38.for 2015/16 ` second only to Greater Manchester and London, with
:47:39. > :47:52.money also promised for Cumbria, In the Cumbria there will be a new
:47:53. > :47:57.business and transport hub on the site of the Ministry of Defdnce s
:47:58. > :47:58.depot. ?1.5 million will go towards a centre of excellence for the
:47:59. > :48:00.nuclear industry in West Cumbria. In nuclear industry in West Culbria. In
:48:01. > :48:05.the north`east there will be a new the north`east there will bd a new
:48:06. > :48:09.oil for students in Cleveland. A business park will supply companies
:48:10. > :48:12.linked to the new rail plant in County Durham and money to redevelop
:48:13. > :48:14.the former shipyard on the Tyne. County Durham and money to redevelop
:48:15. > :48:17.the former shipyard on the Tyne In North Yorkshire there is money for a
:48:18. > :48:23.bio hub at the University of York, which will host and support
:48:24. > :48:25.industrial I/O technology companies. The north`east seems to have done
:48:26. > :48:28.The north`east seems to havd done well. Money being invested in
:48:29. > :48:32.well. Money being invested hn products which will help the
:48:33. > :48:37.economy. I really pleased to hear this. At the same time what I would
:48:38. > :48:39.say it is too little too late. We're bad little investment in this
:48:40. > :48:42.say it is too little too late. We're bad little investment in thhs area.
:48:43. > :48:44.We lost our development agency which would have been doing investment
:48:45. > :48:48.like this all the time without trying to claim any credit for it.
:48:49. > :48:51.It was just part of the day job. trying to claim any credit for it.
:48:52. > :48:52.It was just part of the day job I'm delighted to see Ed Miliband has
:48:53. > :48:56.come out and said we will devolve come out and said we will ddvolve
:48:57. > :48:59.?30 million worth of funding to local areas to come together and
:49:00. > :49:02.invest in their region. There was just part of the day job. I'm
:49:03. > :49:04.delighted to see Ed Miliband has come out and said we will ddvolve
:49:05. > :49:06.?30 million worth of funding to local areas to come together and
:49:07. > :49:10.invest in their region. It is too invest in their region. It hs too
:49:11. > :49:12.little too late? No, it is a boost. I will remind people that ?0
:49:13. > :49:12.little too late? No, it is ` boost. I will remind people that ?1 billion
:49:13. > :49:17.I will remind people that ?0 billion has come from Europe. I'm pleased to
:49:18. > :49:18.in the involved in that. I'm happy in the involved in that. I'm happy
:49:19. > :49:22.that one or two of the scheles, in the involved in that. I'l happy
:49:23. > :49:28.that one or two of the scheles, the Tees Valley, for instance.
:49:29. > :49:33.Apprenticeships are helping there. The food herb, or Cumbers in York.
:49:34. > :49:36.They are two important things for this region. In terms of cost
:49:37. > :49:42.effectiveness, the way in which the money will be deployed, talking
:49:43. > :49:45.about the loss of agencies, but the local enterprise partnerships are
:49:46. > :49:54.working with local government and councils to get their act together.
:49:55. > :49:57.I have done a calculation and in some cases it will cost ?100,000 to
:49:58. > :50:00.create each job. You might `s well create each job. You might as well
:50:01. > :50:03.pay people to go on the dold. create each job. You might `s well
:50:04. > :50:03.pay people to go on the dole. I create each job. You might as well
:50:04. > :50:08.pay people to go on the dold. I will pay people to go on the dold. I will
:50:09. > :50:10.say to you that sort of mondy, it may be expensive per capita, but we
:50:11. > :50:15.are talking about highly skilled are talking about highly skhlled
:50:16. > :50:24.outcomes, people who will contribute massively. I think it is very
:50:25. > :50:26.encouraging. I'm pleased. I'm sorry my colleague is not so happx
:50:27. > :50:29.encouraging. I'm pleased. I'm sorry my colleague is not so happy about
:50:30. > :50:36.it. The local enterprise partnerships are helping. When you
:50:37. > :50:37.speak to a lot of people in the industry is some of them are
:50:38. > :50:38.speak to a lot of people in the industry is some of them ard saying,
:50:39. > :50:40.industry is some of them are saying, we have not seen an awful lot from
:50:41. > :50:44.these partnerships. I do think it these partnerships. I do think it
:50:45. > :50:49.has another weight and muscle. Also it does not have enough funding I
:50:50. > :50:56.would like to see these being beefed up. I would like this then being
:50:57. > :50:58.given more skills. We need to get jobs while young people, to keep our
:50:59. > :51:05.brightest and best... I agree. Since brightest and best... I agree. Since
:51:06. > :51:09.they were set up, it would give them some real money to spend along with
:51:10. > :51:15.local government. That must be good for this region. Couldn't this be
:51:16. > :51:18.seen as a stunt? You can call anything a stunt. It is a sdnsible
:51:19. > :51:20.anything a stunt. It is a sensible use of public funds. It is `
:51:21. > :51:23.use of public funds. It is a sensible use of public funds and has
:51:24. > :51:25.to be something that will ststain the economy, certainly in the North
:51:26. > :51:28.East and in Yorkshire. Now, it's been an awful year
:51:29. > :51:30.for the Co`op. A bank rocked
:51:31. > :51:33.by financial mismanagement and scandal followed by the sale of
:51:34. > :51:36.the Co`op pharmacies and its farms. Indeed you might be forgiven for
:51:37. > :51:38.thinking the entire co`operative Yet Co`ops `
:51:39. > :51:41.which are businesses owned and run for the benefit of their
:51:42. > :51:44.members rather than shareholders ` And the Government believes it's
:51:45. > :51:48.a model for the future as otr It has been part
:51:49. > :51:53.of the high street for decades. The Co`operative Group, 475 stores
:51:54. > :51:57.in the region, including this new A ?1.5 billion black hole,
:51:58. > :52:09.a rescue by private investors, the bank run by the Co`operative
:52:10. > :52:14.Group has faced a series of grim But away from the familiar Co`op,
:52:15. > :52:19.from everything from funeral homes to banks, to supermarkets, there is
:52:20. > :52:23.another cooperative movement you Alison, working in this Alnmouth
:52:24. > :52:29.hotel, is part of it. This place is part of HF Holiday
:52:30. > :52:33.group. Providing accommodation for over
:52:34. > :52:36.100 years, it now has hotels It is a cooperative too with 54 000
:52:37. > :52:44.members all with the right to have They have a say
:52:45. > :52:50.in how things are run. The majority of members,
:52:51. > :52:56.so if they come here and don't like the way something is rtn,
:52:57. > :52:59.they have an input. Across Britain the number
:53:00. > :53:02.of cooperative organisations rose In the north`east there are 500
:53:03. > :53:11.cooperatives, with a turnovdr Cumbria as one of the largest number
:53:12. > :53:14.of community cooperatives in Britain running anything from pubs to
:53:15. > :53:19.village shops, with 2200 people But could the fallout from the Co`op
:53:20. > :53:24.bank spoil all that? Obviously it has been
:53:25. > :53:26.a very bad year for the group. They are looking for a recovery
:53:27. > :53:30.at the moment. This is a story of the 6000
:53:31. > :53:36.other cooperatives out there. Every time a public limited company
:53:37. > :53:41.gets into trouble, people question They never talk about what was wrong
:53:42. > :53:48.with all public limited companies That is probably a sensible
:53:49. > :53:52.thing to make that distinction. You should make
:53:53. > :53:54.the same distinction here. And the troubles of the bank haven't
:53:55. > :53:56.stopped other cooperatives growing She works for a design comp`ny
:53:57. > :54:01.in Newcastle. She says working for a Co`op has
:54:02. > :54:05.given her an opportunity shd simply If somebody has an idea,
:54:06. > :54:09.they can say the idea. It is usually passed, because
:54:10. > :54:16.we all share the same ethos. Yes,
:54:17. > :54:19.it is an equal say in the btsiness. I think at a young age I
:54:20. > :54:23.have never had that before. It is really nice,
:54:24. > :54:26.it is a great opportunity More cooperatives have tradhtionally
:54:27. > :54:32.been associated with the Labour One northern Conservatives thinks
:54:33. > :54:36.they can play a vital role The cooperative is owned by
:54:37. > :54:41.its local community members, rather than some distance monolithic,
:54:42. > :54:47.bureaucratic monster in London, Battered by losses,
:54:48. > :54:55.scarred by controversy. Now painstakingly rebuilding
:54:56. > :54:57.its image. But there's also a wider movement
:54:58. > :55:00.out there, from country hotels to It is still around and still
:55:01. > :55:12.making its mark on our economy. You were a Co`op sponsored
:55:13. > :55:24.cannonade. I essentially says cannonade. I essentially saxs
:55:25. > :55:29.parties `` candidate. When the Labour Party was formed, thd
:55:30. > :55:31.parties `` candidate. When the Labour Party was formed, the Co`op
:55:32. > :55:32.Labour Party was formed, thd Co`op decided to stay separate from that
:55:33. > :55:34.and create a template of yotr decided to stay separate from that
:55:35. > :55:38.and create a template of yotr party hammer to continue the advancement
:55:39. > :55:41.of their ideas and values. I'm really glad they have, becatse they
:55:42. > :55:45.have strong values, strong ethics. have strong values, strong dthics.
:55:46. > :55:47.They are an important part of our society and economy and I am
:55:48. > :55:52.society and economy and I al delighted to continue to push those
:55:53. > :55:57.values within politics. How damage have they been by the problems
:55:58. > :56:02.have they been by the probldms affecting the court itself? I think
:56:03. > :56:07.there has been problems in that group. No one will argue it hasn't
:56:08. > :56:13.been an extremely difficult year. As the colleague said on the vhdeo
:56:14. > :56:22.there's no reason we showed throughout the baby the bath water.
:56:23. > :56:27.`` should. I think in this current climate, we have had an economic
:56:28. > :56:33.crash, said the values and principles of our system, when you
:56:34. > :56:39.have a democratic approach, when you have values and ethics, I think
:56:40. > :56:41.those are more important and I'm delighted to see the Co`op movement
:56:42. > :56:49.delighted to see the Co`op lovement flourish. Is ironic that the
:56:50. > :56:55.government is keen on this, isn t it? I am a member of the core of
:56:56. > :57:00.movement. I've been a member for years. I believe in the Co`op
:57:01. > :57:05.movement. Not the political movement, but the movement that
:57:06. > :57:08.produces Exton to the markets and the like. I'm also interested in
:57:09. > :57:13.the like. I'm also interestdd in John Lewis and other operations
:57:14. > :57:13.the like. I'm also interested in John Lewis and other operathons ``
:57:14. > :57:21.John Lewis and other operations `` excellent supermarkets. Where it has
:57:22. > :57:22.gone wrong is that it has not pursued the commercial models that
:57:23. > :57:29.other crops, such as John Lewis, other crops, such as John Lewis,
:57:30. > :57:36.have pursued and I'm afraid `` Co`op 's, and it continues to fund a
:57:37. > :57:42.political party, the Labour Party. I think that is wrong. I am not a
:57:43. > :57:48.Labour member. I am a conservative, but I don't believe politics should
:57:49. > :57:52.come into the operation of the commercial operation. That
:57:53. > :57:56.relationship will change, won't it? This is not about the Co`op group.
:57:57. > :58:02.It is about the movement. What members are doing promoting things
:58:03. > :58:06.like credit unions and trying to tackle some of the things we have
:58:07. > :58:16.seen, like a wonder. These of ethics we want to promote. Conserv`tives
:58:17. > :58:21.are also part of that but they don't get funding from the commercial
:58:22. > :58:27.operations. A lot of Conservative MPs might say it is hypocritical to
:58:28. > :58:36.back them and then want them to back them and then want thel to
:58:37. > :58:38.reduce to a low wage. I don't think they are connected. We are keen to
:58:39. > :58:40.see the idea, the mutual idda, see the idea, the mutual idda,
:58:41. > :58:42.develop. We are very busy with see the idea, the mutual idea,
:58:43. > :58:47.develop. We are very busy whth all develop. We are very busy whth all
:58:48. > :58:50.kinds of areas, like special small banks. There's nothing wrong with
:58:51. > :58:52.that, it is just an fortunate we are becoming mixed up in Labour
:58:53. > :58:56.politics. Now, it's our final show
:58:57. > :58:59.of the series but we couldn't go without our regular round`up
:59:00. > :59:01.of the week's news ` set to a jaunty but ever`so`slightly
:59:02. > :59:04.annoying minute of music. And the real bonus is you get to see
:59:05. > :59:07.if Mark can race through it New student transport charges meant
:59:08. > :59:16.protests at Northumberland Council. Students over 16 could
:59:17. > :59:19.pay up to ?600. The council say government cuts
:59:20. > :59:22.have left that no choice. With holiday season
:59:23. > :59:24.on the way the government s`ys it is dealing with delays at passport
:59:25. > :59:27.offices, including Durham. Back in the real world,
:59:28. > :59:34.unfortunately, the situation is My office dealt with 17 urgent
:59:35. > :59:40.enquiries last week Wearside MP Bridget Phillipson
:59:41. > :59:44.criticised government plans for free school meals,
:59:45. > :59:52.saying some schools will only be Nick Clegg said she was
:59:53. > :59:56.sourly undermining the plans. Durham council says last year's
:59:57. > :59:58.lumiere festival brought in nearly ?6 million into the local economy
:59:59. > :00:00.and attracted 175,000 peopld. Finally, Penrith border
:00:01. > :00:03.MP Rory Stewart wants peopld to help him build a stone monument
:00:04. > :00:07.on the English Scottish border. He says it'll
:00:08. > :00:15.a lasting testimony to the UK. And one final bit of news
:00:16. > :00:18.and the Redcar MP Ian Swales has announced that he'll be standing
:00:19. > :00:20.down at the next General Eldction He said he was proud
:00:21. > :00:24.of what he'd achieved as an MP. And that's it for this week `
:00:25. > :00:29.and indeed for this series. Thanks to all my guests `
:00:30. > :00:31.but more importantly Assuming we've been house`trained
:00:32. > :00:34.enough for you, Now though, back to Andrew
:00:35. > :00:48.for the rest of the show. So, plenty happening in Parliament
:00:49. > :00:50.this coming week, including a controversial bill to make
:00:51. > :01:12.so-called assisted dying legal and Lord Carey has intervened in the
:01:13. > :01:16.assisted dying debate. Will it make a difference? It will make a
:01:17. > :01:24.difference because we have established in the House of Lords, I
:01:25. > :01:28.am not sure who they speak for and why they should have a privileged
:01:29. > :01:35.position, but he was a big opponent and has made a change of heart. The
:01:36. > :01:45.fact that the Daily Mail has printed this shows this is a big
:01:46. > :01:51.intervention. The Bill being pushed through, is it now on the agenda? I
:01:52. > :01:55.think it is. There are international examples of assisted dying
:01:56. > :02:00.elsewhere. The state of Oregon passed a Bill similar to this in the
:02:01. > :02:06.1990s and things have not got out of control. That has not been an
:02:07. > :02:12.expansion or abuse. It has settled down and become part of the
:02:13. > :02:18.furniture. That makes it easier for this Bill, to make the case for it.
:02:19. > :02:21.Religious people may still have a principled objection but most other
:02:22. > :02:25.people have a practical objection, which is how to put in place
:02:26. > :02:30.safeguards to deal with unscrupulous relatives or anyone else who wants
:02:31. > :02:33.to abuse this right? Once a controversial issue is only being
:02:34. > :02:38.opposed for practical reasons it is on its way to getting its way. What
:02:39. > :02:43.is the division, is it the Church against everybody else? Is it a
:02:44. > :02:50.right and left division? What is stopping it? It is a very difficult
:02:51. > :02:54.moral issue and there are people who can have genuinely held Christian
:02:55. > :03:01.beliefs or non-Christian beliefs who can be on both sides. I think that
:03:02. > :03:05.the Lord Carey intervention is potentially a game changer not just
:03:06. > :03:08.because he is a former Archbishop of Canterbury but because he was on the
:03:09. > :03:16.Evan Jellicoe side of the Church of England. That is quite a big move.
:03:17. > :03:21.The response was to say, please withdraw your bell and let us have a
:03:22. > :03:26.royal Commission. The Supreme Court kicked the ball back to Parliament
:03:27. > :03:31.when they rejected the cases of three people who had been taking the
:03:32. > :03:35.case and said, we could say that banning the right to life is against
:03:36. > :03:40.the European Court of Human Rights, but it is a moral issue and an issue
:03:41. > :03:47.for Parliament. Parliament needs to decide. The data act that is going
:03:48. > :03:50.to be pushed through Parliament. decide. The data act that is going
:03:51. > :03:56.to be pushed through Parliament In record time. To comply with a
:03:57. > :04:02.European court judgement. Tom Watson and David Davis, some dissent. Are
:04:03. > :04:10.you so prized with how united the establishment, left, right and
:04:11. > :04:14.centre is? No. There is a great quote saying this has been enacted
:04:15. > :04:18.under the something must be done act and that captures it exactly. Even
:04:19. > :04:25.Cameron says he does not want to look people in the eye and say that
:04:26. > :04:30.he did not do everything he could. There is no end to the power of
:04:31. > :04:34.surveillance. It is all was about drawing a distinction. I am always
:04:35. > :04:40.suspicious when politicians look something up and said, we have all
:04:41. > :04:44.agreed. Are there at the centre is right or is the political
:04:45. > :04:53.establishment right? I think the establishment is right. I think it
:04:54. > :04:58.is stronger than other issues. We are in a unique position where all
:04:59. > :05:01.three political parties have relatively recent experience of
:05:02. > :05:06.government so they now that security threats are not made up by
:05:07. > :05:16.unscrupulous people. The legislation being proposed is not dramatic, it
:05:17. > :05:19.is to fill a gap that was created. I do not see the political
:05:20. > :05:24.controversy. All three political parties support it. David Davis and
:05:25. > :05:34.Liberty are against that, and always are. Would you not have expected...
:05:35. > :05:41.The Lib Dems are in government, but a bit more rebellion on the Labour
:05:42. > :05:43.backbenches? There is no political controversy put outside parliament
:05:44. > :05:52.there's quite a lot of controversy about this. My paper has taken an
:05:53. > :05:58.interest in this. It is interesting, it does not feel, it is not a
:05:59. > :06:04.1950s, three public school boys setting, let us have this deal. The
:06:05. > :06:09.Liberal Democrats and Labour have serious questions. There's going to
:06:10. > :06:17.be a sunset clause that will run out in 2016. The Liberal Democrats, who
:06:18. > :06:21.asked pretty tough questions, have said there are assurances. Ed
:06:22. > :06:25.Miliband did not go to public school.
:06:26. > :06:28.For many English football fans, tonight's World Cup final presents
:06:29. > :06:31.How do you pick between two traditional foes
:06:32. > :06:34.Well, if you're a political obsessive, like these
:06:35. > :06:37.three, you could always back the nation according to how it votes.
:06:38. > :06:39.The website LabourList has produced a political guide to the tournament.
:06:40. > :06:53.At the beginning of the tournament, it was a fairly balanced playing
:06:54. > :06:59.field politically with 15 left wing and 17 right-wing countries. England
:07:00. > :07:01.found themselves isolated in a group with three left-wing countries. That
:07:02. > :07:07.was the least of their problems. was the least of their problems
:07:08. > :07:10.There was a clear domination of democratic regimes over
:07:11. > :07:12.authoritarian with only six of oratory and countries making it
:07:13. > :07:22.through to the finals and the only all authoritarian tie was dubbed the
:07:23. > :07:26.worst match of the World Cup. By the second round 16 teams remained. The
:07:27. > :07:31.left had a clear advantage with nine, seven from the right and
:07:32. > :07:36.authoritarian countries all but wiped out. Two representatives
:07:37. > :07:44.remained. Both were beaten by European democracies. By the
:07:45. > :07:51.semi-finals, all was even Stephen. A right-wing Protestant Europe taking
:07:52. > :07:56.on Catholics South America. With one victory apiece, Germany knocking out
:07:57. > :08:01.Brazil and Argentina beating the Dutch, tonight's final repeats that
:08:02. > :08:11.pattern. Who will win? Angela Merkel's Germany or Argentina?
:08:12. > :08:13.We're joined now by Britain's only Labour adviser
:08:14. > :08:27.Should we read political significance in to the fact that the
:08:28. > :08:32.only time England has won the World Cup was under a Labour government?
:08:33. > :08:37.Of course. The problem is we did not qualify for Euro 2008 when it was a
:08:38. > :08:43.Labour government. We have had some pretty shoddy results under a Labour
:08:44. > :08:44.government. As someone under the left, are you backing Argentina?
:08:45. > :08:50.left, are you backing Argentina Absolutely not. I do not think it
:08:51. > :08:59.has anything to do with politics. It is a bit of fun. People should
:09:00. > :09:01.choose it is Don Hoop plays the best football and the Germans have been
:09:02. > :09:06.fantastic. They were great in 2 10 fantastic. They were great in 2010
:09:07. > :09:11.as well. They started this model in 2008 and that is the sort of thing
:09:12. > :09:16.people should be supporting. Who should a Eurosceptic support? I
:09:17. > :09:21.would not say Argentina because that is the country that has tried to
:09:22. > :09:29.seize British sovereign territory within my lifetime. You were not
:09:30. > :09:33.around for the Blitz. Believe it or not, I was not. There is a strong
:09:34. > :09:45.political case to support Germany. They are probably going to win the
:09:46. > :09:49.World Cup with a clear of -- with players of Polish origin. That sort
:09:50. > :09:57.of cultural change they have forced themselves to go through... You talk
:09:58. > :10:03.about them being right wing, but in fact the way that the German league
:10:04. > :10:08.is structured, and I am an expert, is based on ownership. It is very
:10:09. > :10:17.different from the Premier League. It is about football as a usual
:10:18. > :10:25.good. The ticket prices are lower. The fans are involved in running the
:10:26. > :10:28.club. It is a model that all English football clubs should emulate.
:10:29. > :10:33.Germany had a strong football team under centre right governments and
:10:34. > :10:45.centre left governments and a coalition. A strong football team
:10:46. > :10:49.and a strong economy. The Conservative MP who is the arch
:10:50. > :10:52.Eurosceptic wanted to get us out of the European Union and was for a few
:10:53. > :10:58.weeks ago when people were making jokes about Jean-Claude Juncker, he
:10:59. > :11:04.was outraged and said you should not do that, so he could happily support
:11:05. > :11:09.Germany. What was interesting about the authoritarian and democratic
:11:10. > :11:21.regimes, what is great is that the World Cup is run by this open and
:11:22. > :11:27.democratic organisation Fifa. It is similar to the EU in many regards.
:11:28. > :11:36.Two countries led by women. Maybe gender is the thing. We did not win
:11:37. > :11:41.under Margaret Thatcher. There's one big difference with the EU, you
:11:42. > :11:49.cannot flog six Dom Acta gets to go to a European summit. Did you know
:11:50. > :11:58.that Italy won two world cups under Mussolini? Can we draw any
:11:59. > :12:04.conclusions between a political system and the performance of the
:12:05. > :12:07.football team? You can draw certain parallels between maybe national
:12:08. > :12:15.cliches, so the Germans are efficient and effective, which might
:12:16. > :12:19.reflect and the English are very polite so we let everyone score
:12:20. > :12:24.first and go into the second round. We put ourselves at the back of the
:12:25. > :12:36.queue. Is England going to qualify for the European? We are going to
:12:37. > :12:39.win the European Championship. The first country Scotland have to play
:12:40. > :12:52.is Germany. What could possibly go wrong? Who is going to win? Germany.
:12:53. > :12:56.Germany. I am going to put a few bob on Argentina. Are you going to be
:12:57. > :13:03.watching? Absolutely. Thank you. This is the last Sunday Politics
:13:04. > :13:08.for the summer. But we'll be back in early autumn
:13:09. > :13:11.and our first programme will be live from Scotland,
:13:12. > :13:17.the weekend before the referendum The Daily Politics is back tomorrow
:13:18. > :13:22.at noon and we'll bring you the last PMQs before the summer
:13:23. > :13:25.on Wednesday morning from 11:30am. Remember, if it's Sunday,
:13:26. > :13:28.it's the Sunday Politics, unless