:00:37. > :00:40.Morning folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:44.Theresa May says she'll deliver on Brexit but does that mean leaving
:00:45. > :00:48.the EU's Single Market and the Customs Union?
:00:49. > :00:50.Tory MPs campaign for a commitment from the Prime
:00:51. > :01:03.The Chancellor pledges just over a billion pounds worth of spending
:01:04. > :01:10.on Britain's roads but is that it or will there be
:01:11. > :01:14.Their last leader was just 18 days in the job.
:01:15. > :01:17.Here: Does Ukip really pose a threat to Labour dominance
:01:18. > :01:21.And claims housing benefit changes might prevent some people
:01:22. > :01:29.in London: Is the battle for Richmond Park based on the skies? Or
:01:30. > :01:38.is it about a bigger conflict in Europe?
:01:39. > :01:41.And with me - as always - and, no, these three aren't doing
:01:42. > :01:46.the Mannequin challenge - it's our dynamic, demonstrative,
:01:47. > :01:48.dazzling political panel - Helen Lewis, Isabel Oakeshott
:01:49. > :01:51.and Tom Newton Dunn they'll also be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:52. > :01:57.First this morning - Theresa May has said
:01:58. > :01:59."Brexit means Brexit" - but can the Prime Minister -
:02:00. > :02:02.who was on the Remain side of argument during the referendum
:02:03. > :02:10.Well, Leave-supporting Tory MPs are re-launching
:02:11. > :02:17.the "European Research Group" this morning to keep Mrs May's feet
:02:18. > :02:27.Are you worried that you cannot trust Theresa May until payment to
:02:28. > :02:33.deliver full Brexit was Magellan like I totally trust Theresa May,
:02:34. > :02:36.100% behind her. She has displayed a massive amount of commitment to
:02:37. > :02:39.making a success of Brexit for the country.
:02:40. > :02:43.We don't know that yet, because nothing has happened. Why, then,
:02:44. > :02:50.have you formed a pressure group? We were fed up with the negativity
:02:51. > :02:54.coming out around Brexit. I feel positive about the opportunities we
:02:55. > :02:58.face, and we are a group to provide suggestions. Who do you have in mind
:02:59. > :03:04.when you talk about negativity - the Chancellor? No, from the Lib Dems,
:03:05. > :03:11.for example, from Labour MPs. This is a pressure group for leaving
:03:12. > :03:16.membership of the single market and customs union, correct? That is what
:03:17. > :03:19.we are proposing. It has a purpose other than just to combat
:03:20. > :03:24.negativity. When it comes to membership of the single market and
:03:25. > :03:29.the customs union, can you tell us what Government policy is towards
:03:30. > :03:32.both or either? Rightly, the Government hasn't made the position
:03:33. > :03:37.clear, and I think that is the right approach, because we don't want to
:03:38. > :03:44.review our negotiating hand. What we're saying... I'm not asking what
:03:45. > :03:47.you are saying. Can you tell us what Government policy is towards
:03:48. > :03:52.membership of these institutions? The Government wants to make sure
:03:53. > :03:55.British businesses have the right to trade with EU partners, to forge new
:03:56. > :04:03.trade deals with the rest of the world. We hope to Reza may speak at
:04:04. > :04:06.Mansion house this week. -- we had Theresa May speak at Mansion house
:04:07. > :04:12.this week. She has been clear, saying it was not a binary choice.
:04:13. > :04:15.And she's right. Let's run that tape, because I want to pick up on
:04:16. > :04:20.what she did say. This is what she had to say about the customs union
:04:21. > :04:25.at Prime Minister's Question Time. On the whole question of the customs
:04:26. > :04:28.union, trading relationships that we have with the European Union and
:04:29. > :04:33.other parts of the world once we have left the European Union, we are
:04:34. > :04:43.preparing carefully for the formal negotiations. We are preparing
:04:44. > :04:46.carefully for the formal negotiations. We want to ensure we
:04:47. > :04:52.have the best possible trading deal with the EU once we have left. Do
:04:53. > :04:56.you know what she means when she says being in the customs union is
:04:57. > :05:00.not a binary choice? I think she's right when she says that. At the
:05:01. > :05:05.moment, and you know this, as long as we are in the customs union, we
:05:06. > :05:08.cannot set our own tariffs or rules, cannot have a free trade agreement
:05:09. > :05:14.with the US or China. We need to leave a customs union to do that.
:05:15. > :05:18.Binary means either you are in or you are out, self which is it? We
:05:19. > :05:22.still want to trade with the EU, and I think we can have a free trade
:05:23. > :05:29.agreement with the EU. That is a separate matter, and it has to do
:05:30. > :05:33.with the single market. What about the customs union? We need to leave
:05:34. > :05:38.the customs union. We do it and properly. That is how to get the
:05:39. > :05:41.most out of this opportunity. Summit is a binary choice? The Prime
:05:42. > :05:46.Minister is right when she says it's not a binary choice. Both can't be
:05:47. > :05:54.right. We can leave the customs union, get their benefits, and have
:05:55. > :06:00.a free trade agreement with zero tariffs with the EU. So it is a
:06:01. > :06:02.binary choice an either be stale really. Yellow like I am saying the
:06:03. > :06:09.Prime Minister is right when she says it is not a binary choice. -- I
:06:10. > :06:17.am saying the Prime Minister is right. We need clarity. Youth had
:06:18. > :06:22.said -- you have said it is a binary choice. We need to leave the
:06:23. > :06:26.constraints of the customs union. It pushes up prices. The EU is not
:06:27. > :06:30.securing the right trade deals, and if we want to make the most of it,
:06:31. > :06:34.we need to get out there and get some deals going. Do you accept that
:06:35. > :06:40.if we remain in the customs union, we cannot do our own free-trade
:06:41. > :06:55.deals? Yellow right 100%. That is why we have to leave. -- 100%. Do
:06:56. > :06:59.you accept that if we leave the customs union but stay with
:07:00. > :07:03.substantial access, I don't say membership, but substantial access
:07:04. > :07:06.to the single market, that goods going from this country to the
:07:07. > :07:11.single market because we're no longer in the union will be subject
:07:12. > :07:19.to complicated rules of origin regulations, which could cost
:07:20. > :07:23.business ?13 billion a year? I would like to see a free-trade agreement
:07:24. > :07:27.between the UK and the EU. Look at the Canadian deal. I give you that,
:07:28. > :07:32.but if we're not in the customs union, things that we bring in on
:07:33. > :07:37.our own tariffs once we've left, we can't just export again willy-nilly
:07:38. > :07:41.to the EU. They will demand to see rules of origin. Norway has to do
:07:42. > :07:46.that at the moment and it is highly complicated expensive. I think if we
:07:47. > :07:50.agree a particular arrangement as part of this agreement with the EU,
:07:51. > :07:56.we can reach an agreement on that which sets a lower standard, which
:07:57. > :08:01.sets a different level of tariffs, which protects some of our
:08:02. > :08:05.industries. Let's suppose we have pretty much free trade with the EU
:08:06. > :08:09.but we are out of the customs union, and let's suppose that the European
:08:10. > :08:19.Union has a 20% tariff on Japanese whisky and we decide to have a 0%
:08:20. > :08:23.tariff - what then happens to the whisky that comes into Britain and
:08:24. > :08:28.goes on to the EU? The EU will not let that in. That will be part of
:08:29. > :08:34.the negotiation. I think there is a huge benefit for external operators.
:08:35. > :08:38.Every bottle of Japanese whisky, they will have to work out the rules
:08:39. > :08:44.of origin. There have been studies that show there is a potential for
:08:45. > :08:49.50% increase in global product if we leave. We're losing the benefits of
:08:50. > :08:50.free trade. I understand, I am asking for your particular view.
:08:51. > :08:59.Thank you for that. Is it not surprising Mr Hannan could
:09:00. > :09:04.not bring himself to say we would leave the customs union? It is
:09:05. > :09:09.messy. The reason there is this new group of Tory MPs signing up to a
:09:10. > :09:15.campaign to make sure we get a genuine Brexit is because there is
:09:16. > :09:20.this vacuum. It is being filled with all sorts of briefing from the other
:09:21. > :09:24.side. There is a real risk in the minds of Brexit supporting MPs that
:09:25. > :09:27.the remaining side are going to try to hijack the process, not only
:09:28. > :09:33.through the Supreme Court action, which I think most Brexit MPs seem
:09:34. > :09:39.to accept the appeal will fail, but further down the line, through
:09:40. > :09:42.amendments to the great repeal bill. This is a pressure group to try to
:09:43. > :09:47.hold the Prime Minister to account. There is plenty of pressure on the
:09:48. > :09:51.Prime Minister effectively to stay in the single market and the customs
:09:52. > :09:58.union, and if you do both of these things, de facto, you have stayed in
:09:59. > :10:01.the EU. She is in a difficult position because there is no good
:10:02. > :10:07.faith assumption about what Theresa May wants because she was a
:10:08. > :10:10.Remainer. There is all this talk about a transitional arrangement,
:10:11. > :10:16.but she can't sell that as someone who voted to remain. The way Isabel
:10:17. > :10:21.has characterised it is interesting. There is a betrayal narrative.
:10:22. > :10:24.Everyone is looking to say that she has betrayed the true Brexit. Since
:10:25. > :10:30.the Government cannot give a clear indication of what it once in terms
:10:31. > :10:34.of the customs union, which sets external tariffs, or the single
:10:35. > :10:38.market, which is the free movement of people, capital, goods and
:10:39. > :10:45.services, others are filling this vacuum. Right. The reasons they
:10:46. > :10:48.can't do this are, first, they don't know if they can get it or not. We
:10:49. > :10:56.saw this with the renegotiation the last Prime Minister. What are they
:10:57. > :11:05.hoping to get? The world on a stick, to get cake and eat it. You go into
:11:06. > :11:10.a negotiation saying, let's see what we can get in total. Are they going
:11:11. > :11:14.to ask the membership of the single market? Yellow I think they will ask
:11:15. > :11:26.for a free trade agreement involving everything. You can demand what you
:11:27. > :11:33.want. The question is, do they stand a cat's chance in hell of getting
:11:34. > :11:38.it? They don't know. Welcome back. We will be back, believe me. It is
:11:39. > :11:43.150 day since we found out the UK had voted to leave the EU, but as we
:11:44. > :11:47.have heard, remain and leave campaigners continue to battle about
:11:48. > :11:55.what type of relationship we should have with the EU after exit.
:11:56. > :11:57.Leave campaigners say that leaving the EU
:11:58. > :11:58.also means quitting the
:11:59. > :12:00.Single Market, the internal European trading bloc that includes free
:12:01. > :12:02.movement of goods, services, capital and people.
:12:03. > :12:04.They point to evidence that leading Leave supporting
:12:05. > :12:06.politicians ruled out staying in the Single Market during
:12:07. > :12:09.Andrea Leadsom, for example, said it would almost
:12:10. > :12:18.certainly be the case that the UK would come out of the Single Market.
:12:19. > :12:22.When asked for a yes or no on whether the UK should stay
:12:23. > :12:26."No, we should be outside the Single Market."
:12:27. > :12:28.And Boris Johnson agreed with his erstwhile ally, saying, "Michael
:12:29. > :12:30.Gove was absolutely right to say the UK
:12:31. > :12:42.They've released a video of clips of Leave campaigners speaking before
:12:43. > :12:44.the referendum apparently saying that the UK should stay in the
:12:45. > :12:48.Nigel Farage, for example, once said that on leaving
:12:49. > :12:50.the EU we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area
:12:51. > :12:53.Owen Paterson, the former Environment Secretary,
:12:54. > :12:59.once made the startling statement that only a madman would actually
:13:00. > :13:05.And Matthew Elliott, the Vote Leave chief, said
:13:06. > :13:07.that the Norwegian option would be initially attractive for some
:13:08. > :13:12.But do these quotes create an accurate picture of what
:13:13. > :13:18.To cast some light on where these quotes came from we're
:13:19. > :13:21.joined by James McGrory, director of Open Britain
:13:22. > :13:34.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. . Your video has statements from leave
:13:35. > :13:37.campaigners hinting they want to stay in the single market. How many
:13:38. > :13:46.were made during the referendum campaign? I don't know. Not one was
:13:47. > :13:50.made during the referendum campaign. Indeed, only two of the 12
:13:51. > :13:54.statements were recorded after Royal assent had been given to the
:13:55. > :13:58.referendum. Only one was made this year before the referendum.
:13:59. > :14:02.Throughout the campaign am a leave campaigners lauded the Norwegian
:14:03. > :14:08.model. Norway are in the single market but not in the EU. They went
:14:09. > :14:10.out of their way not to be pinned down on a specific trading
:14:11. > :14:14.arrangement they want to see in the future with Europe, when the
:14:15. > :14:20.Treasury model the different models it was the EEA or a free-trade
:14:21. > :14:23.agreement. I understand. Does it not undermine your case that none of the
:14:24. > :14:28.12 statements on your video were made during the campaign itself,
:14:29. > :14:32.when people were giving really serious thought to such matters? The
:14:33. > :14:36.Leave campaign weren't giving serious thought to such matters.
:14:37. > :14:41.They did not set out the future trading model they wanted to see.
:14:42. > :14:45.But you cannot produce a single video with somebody saying we should
:14:46. > :14:50.stay in the single market during the campaign. Daniel Hanna had talked
:14:51. > :14:55.about the Norwegian model as a future option. One comment from
:14:56. > :14:59.Nigel Farage dates back to 2009, when we didn't even know if we would
:15:00. > :15:03.have a referendum or not. Does it not stretch credibility to go back
:15:04. > :15:07.to the time when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister? The overall point
:15:08. > :15:13.stands. It is not supposed to be an exhaustive list of the options.
:15:14. > :15:18.Daniel Hannan, described as the intellectual godfather of the Leave
:15:19. > :15:21.movement is saying that no one is talking about threatening our place
:15:22. > :15:25.in the signal market. I think it's legitimate to point out the Leave
:15:26. > :15:29.campaign never came forward with a credible argument. We have
:15:30. > :15:33.highlighted some of the quotes you picked out from leave campaigners
:15:34. > :15:39.over time. Do you think you have fully encapsulated their arguments
:15:40. > :15:45.accurately? I don't think in a 92nd video you can talk about the full
:15:46. > :15:49.thing. -- a 90-2nd video. Some of them want to seek a free-trade
:15:50. > :15:57.agreement, some to default on to World Trade Organisation tariffs.
:15:58. > :15:59.There is a range of opinion in the Leave campaign. Let's listen to the
:16:00. > :16:01.clip you used on Owen Paterson first.
:16:02. > :16:07.Only a madman would actually leave the market.
:16:08. > :16:12.Only a madman would actually leave the market.
:16:13. > :16:13.It's not the EU which is
:16:14. > :16:17.a political organisation delivering the prosperity and buying our goods.
:16:18. > :16:20.It's the market, it's the members of the market and we'll carry on
:16:21. > :16:23.I mean, are we really suggesting that the
:16:24. > :16:26.economy in the world is not going to come to come
:16:27. > :16:27.to a satisfactory trading arrangement with the EU?
:16:28. > :16:30.Are we going to be like Sudan and North
:16:31. > :16:34.It is ludicrous this idea that we are going to leap off a
:16:35. > :16:47.What he said when he said only a madman would leave Europe, was that
:16:48. > :16:51.we would continue to trade, we would continue to have access. Any country
:16:52. > :16:55.in the world can have access. What the Leave campaign suggested is our
:16:56. > :16:58.trade would continue uninterrupted, they are still at it today, David
:16:59. > :17:03.Davis used the phrase, uninterrupted, from the dispatch box
:17:04. > :17:06.recently. You misrepresented him by saying only a madman would leave the
:17:07. > :17:10.Single Market and stopped it there, because he goes onto say that of
:17:11. > :17:12.course we want Leave in the sense of continuing to have access. I don't
:17:13. > :17:30.think he was about axis, he is talking
:17:31. > :17:33.about membership. He doesn't use the word membership at all. He talks
:17:34. > :17:35.about we are going to carry on trading with them, we will not leap
:17:36. > :17:38.off, we will carry on trading. Anybody can trade with the EU, it's
:17:39. > :17:41.the terms on which you trade that is important and leave campaigners and
:17:42. > :17:43.Patterson is an example of this, saying we can trade as we do now,
:17:44. > :17:45.the government saying we can trade without bureaucratic impediments and
:17:46. > :17:48.tariff free. The viewers will make up their mind. Let's listen to the
:17:49. > :17:49.views of Matthew Elliott, the Chief Executive of Vote Leave.
:17:50. > :17:52.When it comes to the Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that
:17:53. > :17:54.it might be initially attractive for some business people.
:17:55. > :17:59.So you then cut him off there but this is what he went on to say in
:18:00. > :18:02.the same clip, let's listen to that. When it comes to the Norwegian
:18:03. > :18:05.option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initially attractive
:18:06. > :18:07.for some business people. But then again for voters
:18:08. > :18:11.who are increasingly concerned about migration in the EU,
:18:12. > :18:14.they will be very concerned that it allows free movement
:18:15. > :18:26.of people to continue. Again, you have misrepresented him.
:18:27. > :18:28.He said the Norwegian model has attractions but there are real
:18:29. > :18:32.problems if it involves free movement of people, which it does.
:18:33. > :18:36.But you cut that bit out. I challenge anyone to represent them
:18:37. > :18:39.accurately because they took such a range of opinions. I don't know what
:18:40. > :18:43.we are supposed to do. You are misrepresenting them. He is saying
:18:44. > :18:48.the Norwegian option is attractive to business, I understand why. It
:18:49. > :18:54.might not be attractive for voters. But then he said if it allowed free
:18:55. > :18:59.movement of people it could be an issue. You took that out. You are
:19:00. > :19:02.saying this is a definitive position. I'm suggesting you are
:19:03. > :19:04.distorting it. This is what you had Mr Farage say.
:19:05. > :19:07.On D+1 we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area
:19:08. > :19:14.This is what he then went on to say in that same clip that you didn't
:19:15. > :19:15.run. There is absolutely
:19:16. > :19:17.nothing to fear in terms of trade from leaving
:19:18. > :19:18.the on D+1 we'll find ourselves part
:19:19. > :19:23.of the European Economic Area and we should use our
:19:24. > :19:32.membership of the EEA as a holding position from which
:19:33. > :19:35.we can negotiate as the European Union's biggest export
:19:36. > :19:38.market in the world, as good a deal, my goodness me,
:19:39. > :19:47.if Switzerland can have one we So there again, he says not that we
:19:48. > :19:52.should stay in the Single Market as a member, but that we stay in the EA
:19:53. > :20:02.as a transition until we negotiate something. -- EEA. This whole clip
:20:03. > :20:06.is online, how would you get away with this distortion? It is not a
:20:07. > :20:09.distortion, the whole point is to point out they do not have a
:20:10. > :20:13.definitive position, he is arguing for membership of the Single Market,
:20:14. > :20:17.for a transitional period. For the transition. How long does that go
:20:18. > :20:20.on, what does he want to then achieve? Not very quickly but he
:20:21. > :20:24.does not say we should stay members of the Single Market and you didn't
:20:25. > :20:28.let people see what he went on to say, you gave the impression he
:20:29. > :20:32.wanted to stay in the one it. It would not be a video then, it would
:20:33. > :20:35.be a seven-week long lecture. They took so many positions, and the idea
:20:36. > :20:39.now that they were clear with people that we should definitely leave the
:20:40. > :20:43.Single Market I think is fictitious. You are trying to make out they all
:20:44. > :20:48.had one position which was to remain members of the one it. You see the
:20:49. > :20:52.full clips that is not what they are saying. We are trying to point out
:20:53. > :20:55.there is no mandate to leave the Single Market. The idea the Leave
:20:56. > :20:58.campaign spoke with unanimity and clarity of purpose and throughout
:20:59. > :21:03.the whole campaign said we will definitely leave the Single Market
:21:04. > :21:06.is not true. That is the whole point of the media. We showed in the
:21:07. > :21:10.montage in the video just before we came on, we said that then Prime
:21:11. > :21:14.Minister, the then Chancellor, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, being
:21:15. > :21:17.categorical that if you vote to leave the EU, you vote to leave
:21:18. > :21:20.membership of the Single Market. What bit of that didn't you
:21:21. > :21:23.understand? Under duress they occasionally said they wanted to
:21:24. > :21:30.leave. Some of them wanted to leave the Single Market. All of the other
:21:31. > :21:34.promises they made, whether ?350 million for the NHS, whether a VAT
:21:35. > :21:37.cut on fuel, points-based system. You do not have a single quote of
:21:38. > :21:41.any of these members saying they want to be a member. Daniel Hannan
:21:42. > :21:47.has said consistently that Norway are a part of the Single Market. You
:21:48. > :21:49.spend the referendum campaign criticising for Rim misrepresenting
:21:50. > :21:52.and misrepresenting and lying and many thought they did. Having seen
:21:53. > :21:56.this many will conclude that you are the biggest liars. I think it is
:21:57. > :21:59.perfectly reasonable to point out that the Leave campaign did not have
:22:00. > :22:02.a clear position on our future trading relationship with Europe.
:22:03. > :22:06.That is all this video does. It doesn't say we definitely have to
:22:07. > :22:10.stay in the Single Market, it just says they do have a mandate to drag
:22:11. > :22:13.us out of our biggest trading partner.
:22:14. > :22:14.Now people have seen the full quotes in context our viewers will make up
:22:15. > :22:16.their mind. Thank you. Now - voting closes next week
:22:17. > :22:19.in the the Ukip leadership contest. The second Ukip leadership contest
:22:20. > :22:22.this year after the party's first female leader - Diane James -
:22:23. > :22:24.stood down from the role Since then the party's lurched from
:22:25. > :22:27.farce to fiasco. It's a world gripped by uncertainty,
:22:28. > :22:43.split into factions. Yes, 2, because they're
:22:44. > :22:53.having their second Watch as the alpha male,
:22:54. > :23:01.the Ukip leader at Nigel Watch as the alpha male,
:23:02. > :23:03.the Ukip leader Nigel Farage, hands power to the new alpha
:23:04. > :23:05.female Diane James. The European Parliament
:23:06. > :23:19.in Strasbourg, October. Another leading light and possible
:23:20. > :23:22.future leader, the MEP Steven Wolfe,
:23:23. > :23:25.has been laid low after an alleged tussle with a colleague
:23:26. > :23:27.during a meeting. A few days later he is
:23:28. > :23:29.out of hospital and I will be withdrawing my
:23:30. > :23:33.application to become I'm actually withdrawing
:23:34. > :23:37.myself from Ukip. You're resigning from the party?
:23:38. > :23:43.I'm resigning with immediate effect. And this week a leaked document
:23:44. > :23:46.suggested the party improperly spent EU funds on political
:23:47. > :23:51.campaigning in the UK. Another headache for whoever takes
:23:52. > :23:58.over the leadership of the pack. One contender is Suzanne Evans,
:23:59. > :24:01.a former Tory councillor and was briefly suspended for
:24:02. > :24:09.disloyalty. Also standing, Paul Nuttall,
:24:10. > :24:13.an MEP from Liverpool who has been by Farage's side
:24:14. > :24:18.as his deputy for six years. There's another big beast
:24:19. > :24:20.in the Ukip leadership contest, and I'm told
:24:21. > :24:23.that today he can be spotted He's John Rees-Evans,
:24:24. > :24:28.a businessman and adventurer who is offering members the chance
:24:29. > :24:31.to propose policies via a website We've got really dedicated
:24:32. > :24:45.passionate supporters who feel like they're not really
:24:46. > :24:48.being listened to and are not even Typically what happens
:24:49. > :24:51.is they just basically sit there until six months before
:24:52. > :24:54.a General Election when they are contacted and asked to go out
:24:55. > :24:56.and leaflet and canvas. Even at branch level people feel
:24:57. > :24:58.there is not an adequate flow of communication
:24:59. > :25:00.up-and-down the party. Are you not going to take part in
:25:01. > :25:09.any hustings? He left a hustings saying
:25:10. > :25:13.the contest was an establishment coronation and has
:25:14. > :25:15.made colourful comments in the past. He's in favour of the death penalty
:25:16. > :25:18.for crimes like paedophilia. I think there is a clear
:25:19. > :25:20.will amongst the offences should be dealt with
:25:21. > :25:23.decisively. But again, on an issue like that,
:25:24. > :25:26.that is something that Our members are not
:25:27. > :25:31.going to agree with me on everything and I don't believe that
:25:32. > :25:34.I would have any authority to have the say and determine
:25:35. > :25:36.the future What method would you use
:25:37. > :25:39.for the death penalty? Again, that is something that could
:25:40. > :25:42.be determined by suggestions made So you'd have like an online
:25:43. > :25:46.poll about whether you use the electric chair,
:25:47. > :25:52.or lethal injection? For example, arguments would be made
:25:53. > :25:54.in favour of This is such a small aspect
:25:55. > :25:58.of what I'm standing for. Essentially, in mainstream media
:25:59. > :26:00.they try to by focusing on pretty irrelevant
:26:01. > :26:06.details. This is one vote that
:26:07. > :26:08.the membership would have. What I'm actually trying to do
:26:09. > :26:12.in this party is to revolutionise the democratic
:26:13. > :26:15.process in the UK, and that's really what your viewers should
:26:16. > :26:19.be concentrating on. With him at the helm he reckons Ukip
:26:20. > :26:22.would win at Meanwhile, in New York,
:26:23. > :26:29.on a visit to Trump Tower, Nigel Farage admired the plumage
:26:30. > :26:38.of the President-elect, a man he has described as
:26:39. > :26:41.a silverback gorilla, a friendship that's been condemned by some
:26:42. > :26:44.in this leadership contest. There are also elections
:26:45. > :26:46.to the party's National Executive Committee, a body
:26:47. > :26:49.that's been roundly criticised by And we're joined now by two
:26:50. > :27:03.of the candidates in the Ukip leadership election -
:27:04. > :27:13.Suzanne Evans and Paul Nuttall. We are going to kick off by giving
:27:14. > :27:17.each of them 30 seconds to lay out their case as to why they would be
:27:18. > :27:20.the less leader starting with Suzanne Evans.
:27:21. > :27:22.Ukip is at its best when it is scaring the political establishment,
:27:23. > :27:27.forcing it to address those problems it would rather ignore. But it
:27:28. > :27:30.really change people's lives for the better and fast, we need to win
:27:31. > :27:34.seats and elections right across the country. To win at the ballot box we
:27:35. > :27:54.need to attract more women, more ethnic
:27:55. > :27:56.minorities, and more of those Labour voters who no longer recognise their
:27:57. > :28:00.party. I know how to do that. Ukip under my
:28:01. > :28:02.leadership will be the same page about it, common-sense, radical
:28:03. > :28:04.party it has always been, just even more successful. Thank you, Suzanne
:28:05. > :28:06.Evans, Paul Nuttall. I'm standing on a platform of unity and experience.
:28:07. > :28:09.I believe the party must come together if it is to survive and
:28:10. > :28:12.prosper. I believe I'm the best candidate to ensure that happens, I
:28:13. > :28:14.am not part of any faction in the party, and beyond that I have done
:28:15. > :28:17.every single job within the party, whether that is as head of policy,
:28:18. > :28:19.whether that is Party Chairman, deputy leader for Nigel for the past
:28:20. > :28:21.six years. I believe Ukip has great opportunities in Labour
:28:22. > :28:26.constituencies where we can move in and become the Patriot invoice of
:28:27. > :28:28.working people, and beyond that we have to ensure the government's feet
:28:29. > :28:35.are held to the fire on Brexit and we get real Brexit, not a
:28:36. > :28:39.mealy-mouthed version. How will you get a grip on this? People have to
:28:40. > :28:43.realise that the cause is bigger than any personality, we have to get
:28:44. > :28:47.together in a room and sort out not just a spokespeople role but roles
:28:48. > :28:51.within the organisation, Party Chairman, party secretary, and
:28:52. > :28:55.whatnot. But as I say, Ukip must unite, we are on 13% in the opinion
:28:56. > :29:00.polls, the future is bright, there are open goals but Ukip must be on
:29:01. > :29:03.the pitch to score them. He says he's the only one that can get a
:29:04. > :29:07.grip on this party. I disagree, I have a huge amount of experience in
:29:08. > :29:10.the party as well and also a background that I think means I can
:29:11. > :29:21.help bring people together. I have always said nothing breeds unity
:29:22. > :29:23.faster than success and under my leadership we will be successful.
:29:24. > :29:25.There is concern about the future of our National Executive Committee
:29:26. > :29:28.going forward. Mr Farage called it the lowest grade of people I have
:29:29. > :29:31.ever met, do you agree? I think he must have been having a bad day, I
:29:32. > :29:34.think we need to make it more accountable to the membership, more
:29:35. > :29:39.open, more democratic. What would you do with the National Executive
:29:40. > :29:43.Committee? I have been calling for the National Executive Committee to
:29:44. > :29:46.be elected reasonably since 2010 giving the members better
:29:47. > :29:50.communication lines and make it far more transparent. Would you have a
:29:51. > :29:54.clear out of the office? I wouldn't, I think the chairman of the party,
:29:55. > :29:58.Paul Upton, the interim chairman, is doing a good job and the only person
:29:59. > :30:01.who has come out of the summer with his reputation enhanced. Let me show
:30:02. > :30:08.you a picture we have all seen of your current leader, Mr Farage, with
:30:09. > :30:12.President-elect Donald Trump. Paul Nuttall, you criticise Mr Farage's
:30:13. > :30:16.decision to appear at rallies during the American election and called Mr
:30:17. > :30:22.Trump appalling. Do you stick by that? I wouldn't have voted for him.
:30:23. > :30:25.I made it clear. Do you still think he's appalling now that he is
:30:26. > :30:30.President-elect? Some of the things he said were appalling during the
:30:31. > :30:33.campaign that he said. But he would be good for Britain, trade,
:30:34. > :30:36.pro-Brexit and he is an Anglo file and the first thing he did was put
:30:37. > :30:42.the bust of Winston Churchill back in the Oval Office. You, Suzanne
:30:43. > :30:47.Evans, called Mr Trump one of the weakest candidates the US has had. I
:30:48. > :30:50.said the same about Hillary Clinton. They cannot both be the weakest. The
:30:51. > :30:54.better candidate on either side would have beaten the other, that is
:30:55. > :30:59.quite clear. Do you stand by that, or are you glad that your leader Mr
:31:00. > :31:05.Farage has strong ties to him? I am, why wouldn't I be? For Ukip to have
:31:06. > :31:08.that direct connection, it can be only good for a party. Were you not
:31:09. > :31:11.out of step and Mr Farage is in step because it looks like your vote is
:31:12. > :31:17.according to polling I have seemed like Mr Trump and his policies? Let
:31:18. > :31:21.me finish. If I am the leader of Ukip I will not be involving myself
:31:22. > :31:24.in foreign elections, I will because in trading here in this country
:31:25. > :31:26.ensuring we get Ukip people elected to council chambers and get seats in
:31:27. > :31:36.2020. The other thing your leader has in
:31:37. > :31:42.common with Mr Trump is that he rather admires Vladimir Putin. Do
:31:43. > :31:49.you? I don't. If you look at Putin's record, he has invaded Ukraine and
:31:50. > :31:53.Georgia. I am absolutely not a fan. I think that Vladimir Putin is
:31:54. > :31:59.pretty much a nasty man, but beyond that, I believe that in the Middle
:32:00. > :32:05.East, he is generally getting it right in many areas. We need to
:32:06. > :32:09.bring the conflict... Bombing civilians? We need to bring the
:32:10. > :32:13.conflict to an end as fast as possible. The British and American
:32:14. > :32:21.line before Donald Trump is to support rebels, including one is
:32:22. > :32:24.affiliated to Al-Qaeda, to the Taliban. We need to clear these
:32:25. > :32:32.people out and ensure that Syria becomes stable. This controversial
:32:33. > :32:35.breaking point poster from during the referendum campaign. Mr Farage
:32:36. > :32:41.unveiled it, there he is standing in front of it. You can bend it - do
:32:42. > :32:45.you still? Yes, I think it was the wrong poster at the wrong time. I
:32:46. > :32:49.was involved with the vote Leave campaign as well as Ukip's campaign,
:32:50. > :32:52.and I felt strongly that those concerned about immigration were
:32:53. > :32:56.already going to vote to leave because it was a fundamental truth
:32:57. > :32:59.that unless we left the European Union we couldn't control
:33:00. > :33:08.immigration. I thought it was about approaching those soft wavering
:33:09. > :33:12.voters who weren't sure. I don't think I said it was racist, but it
:33:13. > :33:15.was about sovereignty and trade and so forth. That was where we needed
:33:16. > :33:20.to go. I was concerned it might put off some of those wavering voters.
:33:21. > :33:26.People may well say, it was part of the winning campaign. It was Ukip
:33:27. > :33:33.shock and all, which is what you stand for and what makes you
:33:34. > :33:36.different. I said I would know how that I said I would not have gone
:33:37. > :33:39.for that person and I thought it was wrong to do it just a week out from
:33:40. > :33:46.the referendum. However, I believe it released legitimate concerns,
:33:47. > :33:54.with a deluge of people making their way from the Middle East and Africa
:33:55. > :33:58.into the European continent. Where is the low hanging fruit for you,
:33:59. > :34:03.particularly in England? Is it Labour or Conservative voters? I
:34:04. > :34:08.want to hang onto the Conservative voters we have got but I think the
:34:09. > :34:12.low hanging fruit is Labour. Jeremy Corbyn won't sing the national
:34:13. > :34:16.anthem, Emily Thornbury despises the English flag. Diane Abbott thinks
:34:17. > :34:20.anyone talking about immigration is racist. Not to mention John
:34:21. > :34:24.McDonnell's feelings about the IRA. Labour has ceased to be a party for
:34:25. > :34:29.working people and I think Ukip is absolutely going to be that party.
:34:30. > :34:36.It is clear, I absolutely concur with everything Suzanne has said. I
:34:37. > :34:39.first voiced this back in 2008 that I believe Ukip has a fantastic
:34:40. > :34:43.opportunity in working-class communities, and everyone laughed at
:34:44. > :34:45.me. It is clear now that we resonate with working people, and you have
:34:46. > :34:52.seen that in the Brexit result. Would you bring back the death
:34:53. > :34:56.penalty? It wouldn't be Ukip policy. Absolutely not. Would you give more
:34:57. > :35:00.money to the NHS and how would your fanatic? You like it is important to
:35:01. > :35:10.fund it adequately, and it hasn't been to date. We promised in our
:35:11. > :35:14.manifesto that we would give more money. Where does the money come
:35:15. > :35:19.from? It is about tackling health tourism. I think the NHS is being
:35:20. > :35:25.taken for a ride at the moment. That may be right, but where does the
:35:26. > :35:28.money come from? It is about scaling back management in the NHS, because
:35:29. > :35:34.that has burgeoned beyond control. They are spending far more money on
:35:35. > :35:38.management. Where would you save money? We need to look at HS two,
:35:39. > :35:43.foreign aid. Now we have Brexit and we will be saving on the membership
:35:44. > :35:47.fee. We need to cut back on management, as Suzanne says. It
:35:48. > :35:53.cannot be right that 51% of people who work for the NHS in England are
:35:54. > :36:00.not clinically qualified. The NHS needs money now - where would you
:36:01. > :36:05.get it? From HS two. That is capital spending spread over a long period.
:36:06. > :36:09.Where will you get the money now? OK, another one. We spent ?25
:36:10. > :36:14.million every day on foreign aid to countries who sometimes are richer
:36:15. > :36:19.than ourselves. Through the Barnett formula. You would take money away
:36:20. > :36:34.from Scotland? Yes, I think they get far too much. PG tips or Earl Grey?
:36:35. > :36:42.Colegrave. PG tips. Strictly come dancing or X Factor? Neither.
:36:43. > :36:47.Strictly. I would love to be on it one day. There you go. Thank you
:36:48. > :36:51.It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:36:52. > :36:54.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:36:55. > :37:03.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
:37:04. > :37:06.Hello and a very warm welcome to your local part of the show
:37:07. > :37:11.This week, a Tyneside charity warns that government changes to housing
:37:12. > :37:16.benefit could prevent some people from furnishing their homes.
:37:17. > :37:19.Also coming up, can Ukip under a new leader really win Labour-held
:37:20. > :37:25.I'll be asking my guests, the Labour Peer Jeremy Beecham
:37:26. > :37:28.and Ukip North East Euro-MP Jonathan Arnott.
:37:29. > :37:31.Also talking about all that and ward closures at her local
:37:32. > :37:33.hospital in Northumberland is the Conservative MP
:37:34. > :37:38.But let's start with high speed rail.
:37:39. > :37:41.This week the government set out its preferred route to take HS2
:37:42. > :37:46.Ministers say passengers in the North East and Cumbria
:37:47. > :37:50.will benefit too with more services and extra seats on the east coast
:37:51. > :37:55.And of course there's hopes Hitachi in Newton Aycliffe could end up
:37:56. > :38:09.Or as some critics say, a giant vanity project?
:38:10. > :38:11.It seems to me it's providing awful value for money, frankly.
:38:12. > :38:15.When you look at this project, it seems to be that it is providing
:38:16. > :38:18.fewer miles per pound spent on any project for high-speed rail
:38:19. > :38:23.It seems incredibly expensive, it is something which is only
:38:24. > :38:28.going to cut a relatively short amount of time of our train
:38:29. > :38:31.journeys, and at the same time, it's costing tens of billions of pounds.
:38:32. > :38:34.The cost is spiralling out of control.
:38:35. > :38:38.You see the cost going up and up and up.
:38:39. > :38:41.And nobody really realising at first hand what it was actually
:38:42. > :38:45.And then you think, how much we could actually do
:38:46. > :38:47.if we put that money into our regions across the UK,
:38:48. > :38:51.including here in the north-east, and actually improve our roads
:38:52. > :38:53.and rail infrastructure that we've got at the moment.
:38:54. > :38:59.Spend the money more, perhaps on improving rail services,
:39:00. > :39:02.roads in your area rather than a project, but it's only
:39:03. > :39:04.going to have fringe benefits for us, isn't it?
:39:05. > :39:07.I think one of the key issues, and that was the frustration I found
:39:08. > :39:09.early on in this discussion, this isn't really about speed
:39:10. > :39:11.as such as Jonathan says, it's about capacity.
:39:12. > :39:13.Our train services are absolutely full.
:39:14. > :39:15.It's great people are using trains more more,
:39:16. > :39:18.which is really important, we need to see that capacity
:39:19. > :39:21.expansion into the Midlands and up into the north-east.
:39:22. > :39:23.I'm very pleased as part of the Secretary of State's
:39:24. > :39:26.statement this week on this that the connection at Leeds
:39:27. > :39:30.bringing us up into York at Newcastle is clearly set out,
:39:31. > :39:34.and clearly those of us from the North will continue to look
:39:35. > :39:38.It will knock about quarter of an hour off the fastest time.
:39:39. > :39:42.It is not only about time, it is about capacity and ensuring
:39:43. > :39:45.that we have got a whole new level of train network in order to keep
:39:46. > :39:49.growing the use of trains, both for passengers and freight.
:39:50. > :39:53.Labour have backed HS2 but slightly grudgingly at times,
:39:54. > :39:56.talking about the budget needing to be under control,
:39:57. > :40:00.fair enough but there is a kind of have your cake and eat it.
:40:01. > :40:03.Slightly moan about it, but we should embrace it, shouldn't we?
:40:04. > :40:06.Up to a point but when this matter was discussed in the Lords
:40:07. > :40:09.of the other day, I declared an interest as you have to do.
:40:10. > :40:11.I said it would be a posthumous interest.
:40:12. > :40:13.Because by the time the service reaches the north-east,
:40:14. > :40:17.17 years on, I was 72 yesterday, I don't think I'm going to be here.
:40:18. > :40:25.I asked the Minister when it would actually reach
:40:26. > :40:27.Newcastle and he's going to write to me about that.
:40:28. > :40:29.And I think there's a lot of questions about the viability
:40:30. > :40:32.of it and the length of time it's going to take.
:40:33. > :40:35.But would you say the argument that we need it, apart
:40:36. > :40:37.from the argument about high-speed rail itself, but alleviating
:40:38. > :40:41.I think what we need is a much better connection
:40:42. > :40:43.between the north-east and Yorkshire and the north-west.
:40:44. > :40:44.The greater Manchester and Liverpool area.
:40:45. > :40:47.That seems to me the most important advantage that we could get.
:40:48. > :40:49.The London end I don't think is particularly relevant
:40:50. > :40:55.I'm sure between now and 2033, if I'm still here, if any of us
:40:56. > :40:58.are still here, we will be discussing that again.
:40:59. > :41:01.Now, Ukip will have a new leader in a little over a week's time.
:41:02. > :41:04.The bookies' favourite is North West Euro-MP Paul Nuttall.
:41:05. > :41:07.He wants to target Labour-held constituencies in the north
:41:08. > :41:10.which he says are an "open goal" for Ukip.
:41:11. > :41:13.But can the party really translate anti-EU sentiment into votes
:41:14. > :41:17.and how much of a threat do they pose to Labour?
:41:18. > :41:23.Cast in favour of Leave was 82,000...
:41:24. > :41:28.It's the city that put Britain on course for Brexit.
:41:29. > :41:32.But when Sunderland became first to declare a vote for Leave,
:41:33. > :41:36.did that point to a wider turn in the political tide?
:41:37. > :41:39.From Remain supporting Labour to a party that made leaving
:41:40. > :41:47.After the referendum celebrations, Ukip hoped to keep momentum going.
:41:48. > :41:51.By targeting council and even Parliamentary seats here on Wearside
:41:52. > :41:57.They've lost not one but two leaders and faced some
:41:58. > :42:05.Some of her blooms may be purple, but the owner of this florist shop
:42:06. > :42:08.voted Conservative blue at the last election.
:42:09. > :42:15.She agrees with Ukip on Brexit but says the party lacks substance.
:42:16. > :42:18.I don't think they come across as serious, I don't.
:42:19. > :42:20.Because they've never actually proved anything as yet.
:42:21. > :42:23.They need to buck up their ideas, get somebody in decent.
:42:24. > :42:27.A few doors up, a different tune at the local record store.
:42:28. > :42:30.Previously Labour, its owner switched to Ukip in 2015.
:42:31. > :42:34.But worry the party could prove a one-hit wonder.
:42:35. > :42:40.They've actually basically got what they wanted,
:42:41. > :42:45.On the high street, shoppers also wonder
:42:46. > :42:50.They can't decide who wants to be leader, there's one stepped down
:42:51. > :42:54.Nobody seems strong enough at the moment.
:42:55. > :42:57.The scuffle in Parliament, alleged scuffle, I don't think that
:42:58. > :43:02.And despite the recent winning of seats in councils
:43:03. > :43:05.like Hartlepool, Ukip faces policy confusion as well,
:43:06. > :43:11.I think it's fair to say that Ukip are a bit in disarray at the moment,
:43:12. > :43:15.as I think it always happens to populist parties.
:43:16. > :43:18.They had one issue, which was to get us out of Europe,
:43:19. > :43:20.the vote went the right way for them.
:43:21. > :43:27.As it picks its leader, Ukip also faces a north-south dilemma.
:43:28. > :43:30.Ukip's appeal in the south of England was to get Conservative
:43:31. > :43:33.voters who wanted to have less government, lower taxes.
:43:34. > :43:36.In the north, it was much more about having a sense
:43:37. > :43:41.of regional identity, having concerns about housing.
:43:42. > :43:44.Ukip supporters admit the leadership contest has been bruising,
:43:45. > :43:47.but say Labour's neglect in the north-east
:43:48. > :43:51.You've only got a small number of local councillors,
:43:52. > :43:55.no MPs in this region, is talk of challenging
:43:56. > :43:59.Over the years we've grown in strength.
:44:00. > :44:03.We've consistently come second in the Parliamentary
:44:04. > :44:07.and council elections, and this is our platform
:44:08. > :44:11.for going that extra yard to cross the finishing line.
:44:12. > :44:15.The night that Ukip's dreams came true, but after its referendum
:44:16. > :44:20.revelry, the party's still dealing with a hangover.
:44:21. > :44:23.Jonathan, you are backing Paul Nuttall for the leadership,
:44:24. > :44:27.why will he deliver northern MPs where Nigel Farage failed?
:44:28. > :44:34.Well, look, any new leader is going to build on the legacy
:44:35. > :44:37.of Nigel Farage and Nigel has taken this party a very, very long way,
:44:38. > :44:40.he deserves an immense amount of credit for what Nigel has done
:44:41. > :44:43.But Paul, of course, is someone who is a northerner.
:44:44. > :44:47.He gets it, he understands, he understands the north of this
:44:48. > :44:51.country, he understands the problems that we face and he is somebody
:44:52. > :44:54.who has spent an awful lot of time, actually, across in this region,
:44:55. > :44:57.so many times, he has been across and helped out.
:44:58. > :45:01.He is deputy leader of the party so he's got the internal experience,
:45:02. > :45:05.And he's also somebody who talks the right language.
:45:06. > :45:08.Who's going to start broadening the policy base,
:45:09. > :45:11.who is going to make sure that we are not talking
:45:12. > :45:13.about EU and immigration, but we're talking about crime,
:45:14. > :45:16.which is an issue which is decimating our working class
:45:17. > :45:25.It has actually gone back up fairly recently.
:45:26. > :45:31.Lots of traditional Labour voters backed Brexit, they
:45:32. > :45:40.I don't think it necessarily follows.
:45:41. > :45:42.We can't, Labour doesn't take voters for granted.
:45:43. > :45:45.We are trying to deal on the ground in our councils with huge problems,
:45:46. > :45:48.massive cuts in, government cuts, and we have two really represent
:45:49. > :45:55.There is a danger here, isn't there, that you look at what happened
:45:56. > :45:57.in Scotland, the SNP, that is the danger.
:45:58. > :46:00.That Labour takes an area for granted, that it has a God-given
:46:01. > :46:03.right to get votes here, and what happens is the same that
:46:04. > :46:06.We don't take the people for granted, in terms
:46:07. > :46:08.of Parliamentary elections or indeed in local councils.
:46:09. > :46:11.I don't people here are going to be particularly impressed by a party
:46:12. > :46:13.whose ex-leader seems to be Donald Trump's best
:46:14. > :46:25.And a party for that matter by the way pledged to abolish
:46:26. > :46:28.inheritance tax is one of its main proposals in the last
:46:29. > :46:32.Paul Nuttall's election could be bad news for your party, couldn't it?
:46:33. > :46:34.Because the kind of agenda that Jonathan talked about,
:46:35. > :46:36.tough on crime, he is talking about perhaps a referendum
:46:37. > :46:39.on capital punishment, I can imagine that could appeal
:46:40. > :46:42.I think you'll find the Conservative Party is perhaps
:46:43. > :46:44.a far more broad church than that these days.
:46:45. > :46:47.I'm not saying every Conservative voter, but some.
:46:48. > :46:50.I think in Northumberland in particular, we have seen
:46:51. > :46:54.absolutely a fragmentation of some of the Labour vote,
:46:55. > :46:57.and it is now fragmented again because you have got
:46:58. > :47:00.the Corbynite Labour vote which is a very clear part
:47:01. > :47:04.of the Labour Party along with a fairly disenfranchised Labour
:47:05. > :47:06.vote who is not sure where they should be
:47:07. > :47:11.I think Ukip do continue to have a stronghold over that voter.
:47:12. > :47:13.But you know there is a strain of working class conservatives
:47:14. > :47:17.who vote in the north-east, but also working class voters voting
:47:18. > :47:20.for Labour who may well have been thinking they could vote
:47:21. > :47:22.Conservative because of your attitude to the European Union.
:47:23. > :47:25.A strong leader like Paul Nuttall, that is going to be a problem
:47:26. > :47:31.No, I think the, as you like to call the working-class voter,
:47:32. > :47:36.I am seeing week in and week out over the last few weeks,
:47:37. > :47:39.are very keen on supporting Theresa May's view of
:47:40. > :47:42.the Conservative government, she is reaching out to everyone.
:47:43. > :47:44.And I think that is something we are going to see,
:47:45. > :47:47.a strengthening of the Conservative vote in the north-east.
:47:48. > :47:50.It is the Phil Wilson question, Theresa May is going to deliver
:47:51. > :47:52.Brexit, all the indications are that she will be
:47:53. > :47:54.strong on ending freedom of movement of labour,
:47:55. > :47:59.I thought the Phil Wilson question was quite absurd, frankly.
:48:00. > :48:03.For him to say Ukip have got policy confusion when he is a member
:48:04. > :48:07.of Jeremy Corbyn's Labour was I thought little bit rich.
:48:08. > :48:10.Ukip have to be talking about issues that impact on working people.
:48:11. > :48:14.That's why I said we broaden our appeal, it is beyond EU immigration,
:48:15. > :48:16.we talk about crime, we talk about democracy,
:48:17. > :48:18.we talk about how we are bringing power not just...
:48:19. > :48:22.Can you really prove you are more than just a single issue party?
:48:23. > :48:25.It was the EU that founded your success, and now that that Fox
:48:26. > :48:27.is shot, we are leaving the European Union,
:48:28. > :48:33.When I joined Ukip, I joined Ukip in 2001,
:48:34. > :48:36.I didn't even at that time realise how big of an issue the EU was,
:48:37. > :48:39.how much it impacted on our daily lives and how important
:48:40. > :48:44.At that time, when I joined Ukip, I actually joined Ukip based
:48:45. > :48:47.on the range of other policies that the party have.
:48:48. > :48:50.And that was 15 years ago when we were still seen
:48:51. > :48:53.We are certainly not that and we will never be that.
:48:54. > :48:56.The political instincts of your party are like the Lib Dems,
:48:57. > :49:00.Most of the MPs, a lot of the councillors would actually
:49:01. > :49:03.quite like to fight to stay in the EU, still.
:49:04. > :49:06.But because you are afraid of the voters who in this
:49:07. > :49:09.region backed Brexit, you are not prepared
:49:10. > :49:15.I don't know what you mean by nailing colours to the mast.
:49:16. > :49:18.We have to accept that in our view the referendum went the wrong way,
:49:19. > :49:21.and particularly the wrong way for this region, which has had
:49:22. > :49:25.?800 million worth of investment over the last few years,
:49:26. > :49:27.which is actually more than the government
:49:28. > :49:30.were promising over 30 years in the devolution deal.
:49:31. > :49:34.Aren't you making that point that isn't the Lib Dem position,
:49:35. > :49:38.asking for a second referendum on the deal, a more coherent one
:49:39. > :49:42.than Labour's which is like, we do not like it but we will go
:49:43. > :49:46.I am not saying we are going along with it.
:49:47. > :49:50.I think that is a possibility because at the moment we have got
:49:51. > :49:52.a government which does not know, or does not tell people,
:49:53. > :49:58.We have to seem what the government in fact wants
:49:59. > :50:05.It is appalling that no steps at all to prepare for the contingency
:50:06. > :50:08.of the referendum going, in my view, and the former
:50:09. > :50:10.government's view, the wrong way, none at all.
:50:11. > :50:15.Affording somewhere to live is a struggle for many people.
:50:16. > :50:18.But even if you manage to rent a home there's the extra
:50:19. > :50:21.At the moment local councils and housing associations can help
:50:22. > :50:24.by providing furniture packs paid for through housing benefit.
:50:25. > :50:27.But one Tyneside charity has warned that the Government's cap on housing
:50:28. > :50:29.benefit will prevent many new tenants from
:50:30. > :50:36.This is the lamp that I've got from the Foundation,
:50:37. > :50:38.I paid ?15 for it, because there's two different prices ranges,
:50:39. > :50:41.one if you're on benefits and one if you're working.
:50:42. > :50:44.The wardrobe, we got from the Foundation,
:50:45. > :50:49.It's better than any other wardrobe I've ever had, actually.
:50:50. > :50:56.Wendy and her husband John were both out of work at the time
:50:57. > :50:58.when they went to a charity that helps people on low
:50:59. > :51:02.Furniture they might otherwise not have been able to afford.
:51:03. > :51:06.If you're on benefits, you're really, your money
:51:07. > :51:09.is going mainly to keep the house over your head.
:51:10. > :51:15.You're paying for your utility bills which is going through the roof.
:51:16. > :51:20.And people are really struggling to find decent furniture.
:51:21. > :51:22.This is where Wendy and John's furniture came from,
:51:23. > :51:27.the Foundations Furniture Project based in Gateshead on Tyneside.
:51:28. > :51:30.It sells low-cost furniture to people on benefits, or,
:51:31. > :51:32.through a credit union, helps them borrow money
:51:33. > :51:34.at affordable rates to buy the furniture.
:51:35. > :51:38.The charity fears it could be about to get a whole lot busier.
:51:39. > :51:41.At the moment people living in social housing can have some
:51:42. > :51:44.of the furniture paid for through their housing benefit.
:51:45. > :51:48.But a new housing benefit cap might mean that's not
:51:49. > :51:54.That housing benefit cap is being phased in by 2018.
:51:55. > :51:57.Critics believe some people on benefits will then find it harder
:51:58. > :52:00.to furnish their homes and could turn to very expensive
:52:01. > :52:07.People have got their pride, they want to have a nice house and that.
:52:08. > :52:15.So the only thing is they go to where they perhaps can
:52:16. > :52:21.And sometimes they're so desperate that they're not really
:52:22. > :52:23.particularly bothered, as long as they can get
:52:24. > :52:29.So I think there is the potential there for people to get into a lot
:52:30. > :52:34.The Department for Work and Pensions told us the cap on housing benefit
:52:35. > :52:38.for tenants in social housing is fair because this brings payments
:52:39. > :52:41.into line with those in the private rented sector.
:52:42. > :52:44.And it also says it's providing councils with ?1 billion of funding
:52:45. > :52:56.by 2020 to help tenants affected by the cap.
:52:57. > :53:01.Doesn't this seem just another cruel punishment for those in need who
:53:02. > :53:04.find themselves in dire circumstances? You get how is but
:53:05. > :53:09.you cannot afford to furnish it. The key question is understanding the
:53:10. > :53:15.purpose of the housing benefit cap which is making money available to
:53:16. > :53:19.in private or social housing because in private or social housing because
:53:20. > :53:23.there has been a disparity. That is fair on the taxpayer who is funding
:53:24. > :53:26.the bill, so there should be fairness across the board. It is an
:53:27. > :53:30.interesting piece that you have shown, I would worry if families who
:53:31. > :53:36.are looking to get furniture for their home cannot get access but the
:53:37. > :53:40.credit unions are always there to provide low-cost and supportive
:53:41. > :53:44.finance. A lot of people will go to money lenders or the kind of
:53:45. > :53:48.retailers who charge extortionate interest rates, that is the reality.
:53:49. > :53:53.That is a risk now, the housing cap will not change that. More people
:53:54. > :53:57.will be driven towards it. I hope that every council is there to
:53:58. > :54:06.them to low-cost providers or the them to low-cost providers or the
:54:07. > :54:10.councils will find ways to help. The cap is there to even out so everyone
:54:11. > :54:19.whatever sort of housing they are in get support. Is that not fair, it
:54:20. > :54:21.provides a pot of money for discretionary payments that councils
:54:22. > :54:26.can pay-out when they find people in need. The reality is it will hit
:54:27. > :54:31.people very hard. I asked a Parliamentary question about this,
:54:32. > :54:38.the parliament said there are 580 households who want lose out on this
:54:39. > :54:42.to the dead of ?1.3 million -- to the extent of ?1.3 million per year.
:54:43. > :54:48.That is taken out of the local economy. The local housing allowance
:54:49. > :54:53.is also being reduced. In that case, 1300 households are going to lose
:54:54. > :54:58.something like 1.1 million a year. That is just in Newcastle. Nearly
:54:59. > :55:03.2.5 million. But they are matching private sector tenants. The problem
:55:04. > :55:06.is that private sector rents are higher. Government policy has been
:55:07. > :55:11.to effectively kill off the to effectively kill off the
:55:12. > :55:14.provision of new social housing, greater emphasis going into the
:55:15. > :55:18.private rented sector, there are no control over those rents and that
:55:19. > :55:21.has driven up the need for housing benefit in those sectors. They need
:55:22. > :55:26.to be tackling the rent levels in the private sector. Money is tight
:55:27. > :55:29.and the benefit caps help control spending, a lot of your supporters
:55:30. > :55:35.will be stability to that. This has also chimed with your party. We have
:55:36. > :55:39.to take a mature and reasoned attitude to this kind of thing. Of
:55:40. > :55:44.course there were problems. Under the last Labour government there was
:55:45. > :55:49.public sector overspend on everything and there was a need to
:55:50. > :55:54.bring spending under control. If this measure you could support? The
:55:55. > :56:00.problem comes that it seems that quite often it is a question of
:56:01. > :56:08.taking an axe to something without being very careful and making sure
:56:09. > :56:11.that you are not putting hard-working people on disadvantage.
:56:12. > :56:19.Or people on benefits. One of the big problems in the benefit system,
:56:20. > :56:21.particularly impact in people in the north-east, is the Employment
:56:22. > :56:29.Support Allowance undercuts there. I am concerned about those cuts in
:56:30. > :56:31.principle. Something has to change in the Autumn Statement,
:56:32. > :56:36.particularly the freeze on benefits that will hit a lot of people if the
:56:37. > :56:43.inflation goes up. If I knew any more than you would be the first to
:56:44. > :56:47.share it. We need to make sure we have fairness across the board, I
:56:48. > :56:56.have spent time with the CABG they making sure we -- CABG today Mickey
:56:57. > :56:58.sure we have famous across the -- fairness across the system.
:56:59. > :57:00.Unemployment fell in the north east this week to levels last
:57:01. > :57:04.But while there was good news on jobs, concern is mounting over
:57:05. > :57:09.Here's Fergus with that and the rest of the week's news in 60 seconds.
:57:10. > :57:12.Unemployment in the north-east is at its lowest for a decade.
:57:13. > :57:14.It was down 20,000 to 79,000 between July and September.
:57:15. > :57:17.It's still the highest in the UK but fell faster than other part
:57:18. > :57:21.A motion calling for accident and emergency and maternity
:57:22. > :57:23.services to be retained at Darlington's Memorial Hospital
:57:24. > :57:26.has been passed by councillors in North Yorkshire.
:57:27. > :57:29.Middlesbrough South MP Tom Blenkinsop has urged
:57:30. > :57:31.the government to put more money into the social care budget
:57:32. > :57:33.but ministers say better coordination of services
:57:34. > :57:40.CQC has commented that social care is on the verge of collapse.
:57:41. > :57:44.The government has had six years of warnings in relation to this
:57:45. > :57:48.matter, yet it has cut ?4 billion from the social care budget.
:57:49. > :57:51.Will the Secretary of State for Health be talking
:57:52. > :57:54.to his colleague the Chancellor of the Exchequer to ensure that that
:57:55. > :57:56.?4 billion is replaced in the Autumn Statement?
:57:57. > :58:00.And finally, a new NHS review has supported the continued closure
:58:01. > :58:03.of an inpatient ward at Rothbury Community Hospital
:58:04. > :58:13.There will now be a formal consultation on its future.
:58:14. > :58:20.You were at the public meeting at Rothbury discussing the ward
:58:21. > :58:26.Croatia, strong feelings but the figures are stark, it is only half
:58:27. > :58:30.for most of the time, is it right to consult on its future? The hospital
:58:31. > :58:34.is not at risk, they are looking at the 12 inpatient beds which they
:58:35. > :58:41.have put a freeze on news of the moment. The occupancy has been below
:58:42. > :58:44.50% for the last few years. The stresses in terms of staff that
:58:45. > :58:48.Northumbria trust has got, they need to find a better way. I have been
:58:49. > :58:52.working closely with the community over the summer and understanding
:58:53. > :58:55.what we want those beds to be used for, because clearly they have not
:58:56. > :59:00.been providing the right sort of service. There is a real issue with
:59:01. > :59:06.palliative care and social care respite care for elderly couples. We
:59:07. > :59:09.consultation to make sure that we consultation to make sure that we
:59:10. > :59:13.can find a model that is going to work. People at the meeting once
:59:14. > :59:19.these beds available to local patients for emergency care. The
:59:20. > :59:25.challenge that we have it understand within that particular Community
:59:26. > :59:28.Hospital building what level of medical care can be provided. It has
:59:29. > :59:36.been a low metal core care. What is your view -- medical care. What is
:59:37. > :59:39.your view? It needs to be opened to provide palliative care for those in
:59:40. > :59:43.the last few weeks of their life, it has been used in an ad hoc way
:59:44. > :59:47.already for that, but also provide a level of social care and respite for
:59:48. > :59:48.families because we do not have that at all.
:59:49. > :59:51.And that's it from us, we're back same time,
:59:52. > :59:54.In the meantime for a northern slant on the Autumn Statement
:59:55. > :59:56.follow me on Twitter, and we'll be dissecting
:59:57. > :59:57.what the Chancellor's package means for our region on next week's show.
:59:58. > :00:00.never happened and will not happen in four years. It is subject we
:00:01. > :00:09.should spend more time on. Back to you.
:00:10. > :00:14.What will the Chancellor have to say in his first big economic statement?
:00:15. > :00:16.What impact will the forecasters say Brexit will have on the economy?
:00:17. > :00:19.And who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in
:00:20. > :00:34.Well, the Shadow Chancellor and the Chancellor have both been
:00:35. > :00:35.touring the television studios this morning.
:00:36. > :00:42.Let's be clear, a lot of this is going to be gimmicks and press
:00:43. > :00:45.As I've said, in the pipeline, we've only
:00:46. > :00:48.seen one in five delivered to construction, that's all.
:00:49. > :00:51.So a lot of this will be a repeat of what
:00:52. > :00:54.I'm not going to reveal what I'm going to say on
:00:55. > :00:59.We don't have unlimited capacity, as one might
:01:00. > :01:02.imagine from listening to John McDonnell, to borrow
:01:03. > :01:07.hundreds of billions of pounds more for discretionary spending.
:01:08. > :01:11.That simply doesn't exist if we're going to
:01:12. > :01:13.retain this country's hard-won credibility in the financial markets
:01:14. > :01:17.if we are going to remain an attractive place for business to
:01:18. > :01:31.We didn't learn very much, Helen, but the papers were briefed this
:01:32. > :01:39.morning that there will be another ?1.3 billion for roads and things
:01:40. > :01:45.like that. ?1.3 billion is 0.08% of our GDP. Not exactly an
:01:46. > :01:48.infrastructure investment programme, is it? Yellow like I have to say, it
:01:49. > :01:57.was not thrilling to read the details. -- I have to say... It is
:01:58. > :02:01.the first big financial statement that is going to come and I think
:02:02. > :02:06.there will be a big row about the OBE are forecast because they cannot
:02:07. > :02:10.set out a range, they have to commit to one forecast. Everything they do
:02:11. > :02:19.is incredibly political. DOB are is on a hiding to nothing. -- DOB are
:02:20. > :02:27.-- the Office for Budget Responsibility. I don't know how
:02:28. > :02:31.they will square the circle. It is an interesting week. It is all about
:02:32. > :02:36.the economy and public finances and we don't have to talk about Brexit
:02:37. > :02:46.until next Sunday, but no, I have a terrible feeling that by the end of
:02:47. > :02:49.Wednesday afternoon we will be screaming and shouting about how
:02:50. > :02:52.Brexit is going to be for the economy. Just imagine the Treasury
:02:53. > :02:57.comes out with his forecast that it is going to collapse growth and
:02:58. > :03:04.collapsed Treasury takings, people will be apoplectic. Until now, the
:03:05. > :03:11.economy has continued to grow strongly. Pretty well. They cannot
:03:12. > :03:14.say, we have noticed it slowing down and that will continue. They have to
:03:15. > :03:18.take a punt if they think it will slow down. It affects the
:03:19. > :03:22.Chancellor's figures, because the more they say it is slowing down,
:03:23. > :03:28.and I have seen that it will go from 2% down to 1.4%, the more the
:03:29. > :03:32.Chancellor's deficit rises even without any more tax cuts and
:03:33. > :03:37.spending. Absolutely. I think Tom is right. What we will see this week is
:03:38. > :03:41.a continuation of the debate we have been having all along. If the Office
:03:42. > :03:45.for Budget Responsibility has negative and gloomy predictions,
:03:46. > :03:54.there will be howls of agony, and rightly howls of frustration from
:03:55. > :03:56.Brexiteers who will say that all the dire predictions from before the
:03:57. > :04:00.referendum have not come to pass and now you are talking things down in a
:04:01. > :04:07.way that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The money for roads, you
:04:08. > :04:14.were dismissive about it, but every little helps. I don't dismiss it, I
:04:15. > :04:19.say it doesn't amount to a fiscal stimulus in macro economic terms.
:04:20. > :04:27.I'm sure if you are on that road, it will be useful. They are going to
:04:28. > :04:37.build a super highway between Oxford and Cambridge. I would like to see
:04:38. > :04:42.them go out to Japan and learn how to fill a hole in two days. I would
:04:43. > :04:45.suggest the road from Oxford to Cambridge is not for the just
:04:46. > :04:54.managing classes, even though it goes through Milton Keynes, and that
:04:55. > :05:01.simply freezing due freezing fuel duty isn't going to hack it, either.
:05:02. > :05:04.These just about managing people are potentially quite a big band. With
:05:05. > :05:09.income tax rises, it means anything you do to help them is incredibly
:05:10. > :05:12.expensive. The universal credit freeze is an interesting example of
:05:13. > :05:20.that. Philip Hammond sounded ambivalent about it after
:05:21. > :05:25.pre-briefings that it might not, the cuts might not go ahead. There are
:05:26. > :05:31.people who are in work but because they are low paid don't have the
:05:32. > :05:36.number of hours, they require welfare benefits to top up their
:05:37. > :05:40.pay, and these welfare benefits, as it stands, are frozen until 2020,
:05:41. > :05:45.and yet inflation is now starting to rise. That's a problem for the just
:05:46. > :05:54.managing people. Correct. It is worse than that, because we are
:05:55. > :06:01.talking about April 2017 when tax credits become universal credits, so
:06:02. > :06:04.the squeeze will be greater. We will get a small highway between a couple
:06:05. > :06:08.of university towns, but if he has any money left to spend at all, it
:06:09. > :06:15.will be on some pretty seismic jazzman for the just about managing
:06:16. > :06:24.people. I am so glad we're not calling them Jams on this programme,
:06:25. > :06:31.because it is a patronising tone. What the Chancellor and Shadow
:06:32. > :06:36.Chancellor did not confront is that Mr Trump's election is a watershed
:06:37. > :06:39.in terms of being able to borrow cheaply. The Federal Reserve is
:06:40. > :06:44.about to start raising rates. The days of cheap borrowing for
:06:45. > :06:47.governments could be coming to an end. You can feel a bit sorry for
:06:48. > :06:52.labour here because after having had six years of being told that we need
:06:53. > :06:56.a surplus and these things are important, we can't deny the
:06:57. > :07:02.deficit, we have switched now and the first thing that Philip Hammond
:07:03. > :07:05.did was to scrap George Osborne's borrowing targets. He has given
:07:06. > :07:11.himself more wriggle room than George Osborne had. He has and it
:07:12. > :07:16.will cost them more. Debt servicing will now rise as a cost. Where is
:07:17. > :07:23.the next political earthquake going to happen?
:07:24. > :07:30.It could be Italy, or the French elections coming up next spring.
:07:31. > :07:32.Now, who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in next
:07:33. > :07:34.year's French Presidential elections?
:07:35. > :07:35.Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans,
:07:36. > :07:37.are selecting their candidate in the first round of
:07:38. > :07:40.Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans,
:07:41. > :07:43.are selecting their candidate in the first round of
:07:44. > :07:47.Let's speak to our correspondent in Paris, Hugh Schofield.
:07:48. > :08:01.Welcome to the programme. Three main candidates, the former -- two former
:08:02. > :08:04.prime ministers and Nicolas Sarkozy, the former president. It is not
:08:05. > :08:09.clear who the front runner is. Robbins it is quite an exciting
:08:10. > :08:23.race, because four weeks it did look as if it was going to be Juppe. It
:08:24. > :08:26.is a two round race. Two go through and the idea is that they rally all
:08:27. > :08:31.the support together. It looked like the first round would be dominated
:08:32. > :08:37.by Juppe and Nicolas Sarkozy, and there was a clear binary combination
:08:38. > :08:42.there, because Sarkozy was looking for squeamish far right voters. In
:08:43. > :08:47.other words, veering clearly to the right and far right on immigration
:08:48. > :08:51.and identity issues. And Juppe is the opposite, saying we had to
:08:52. > :08:58.appeal to the centre. That was what it looked like. But the third
:08:59. > :09:01.candidate has made this really quite staggering surge in the last few
:09:02. > :09:06.days. There was a debate on Thursday and he was deemed to have won it on
:09:07. > :09:11.television. He is coming up strongly, and I wouldn't be at all
:09:12. > :09:16.surprised to see him go through, which would be interesting from a
:09:17. > :09:20.British perspective, because if the becomes president, he will be the
:09:21. > :09:28.first president with a British wife. His wife Penelope is Welsh.
:09:29. > :09:31.We will have to leave it there. I would suggest that the reason it is
:09:32. > :09:35.fascinating is that whoever wins this primary for the centre-right
:09:36. > :09:40.party is likely to be the next president, and who the next
:09:41. > :09:42.president is will be very important for Britain in these Brexit
:09:43. > :09:46.negotiations. Nothing will really happen until it is determined. Then
:09:47. > :09:52.after the German elections in October. I would add one more
:09:53. > :10:01.constituent part. The most important thing about the race is who can stop
:10:02. > :10:09.Marine Le Pen. Marine Le Pen will almost be one of the ones in the
:10:10. > :10:14.run-off. The Socialists don't expect much. Francois Hollande is done.
:10:15. > :10:19.There is too much of a cliff to climb. Which one of these three
:10:20. > :10:24.centre-right candidates can stop Marine Le Pen? We have had Brexit
:10:25. > :10:33.and Trump, but we could also have Marine Le Pen. If it is Sarkozy, it
:10:34. > :10:40.is the battle of the right. In some areas, he has moved to the right of
:10:41. > :10:44.marine Le Pen. I suppose he feels he has do in order to take the wind out
:10:45. > :10:47.of our sails. You wonder if she could succeed later on if she does
:10:48. > :10:51.not this time. Talking to French analysts last night, there was
:10:52. > :10:55.suggesting that she could not do it this time but could win the next
:10:56. > :10:59.time. All the events in France over the last year seemed to provide the
:11:00. > :11:06.most propitious circumstances for her to do well, and particularly if
:11:07. > :11:10.you throw in Trump and Brexit. Suppose it is Mr Sarkozy, and he
:11:11. > :11:13.goes through and wins the Republican nomination, and he and Marine Le Pen
:11:14. > :11:22.go through to the second round, that would mean, think about it, is that
:11:23. > :11:28.a lot of French socialist voters and those on the father left would have
:11:29. > :11:34.to grit their teeth and vote for Nicolas Sarkozy. They might not do
:11:35. > :11:45.it. We might see what we saw in America, where lots of potential
:11:46. > :11:49.Clinton voters did not turn out. You got politicians like Melanchon on
:11:50. > :11:54.the far left saying there are foreign workers taking bread out of
:11:55. > :11:58.French workers' mounts. We sometimes forget, because we tend to emphasise
:11:59. > :12:13.the National of the National front, but actually, there are economic
:12:14. > :12:22.policy is quite Bennite. Sarkozy is the Hillary Clinton of the French
:12:23. > :12:29.elections. He is Mr establishment. Juppe and the other third candidate
:12:30. > :12:32.are the same. You have to re-establish candidates running
:12:33. > :12:35.against an antiestablishment candidate. There are populist
:12:36. > :12:40.economic policies from the National front. The other three want to raise
:12:41. > :12:49.the retirement age and cut back on the 35 hour week, which are not
:12:50. > :12:52.classic electoral appeals. Mr Juppe used to be the Mayor of Bordeaux.
:12:53. > :12:58.And we are the biggest importers of claret, so that could have an
:12:59. > :13:04.effect. In 2002, it was Jack Shear against John Marine Le Pen, and the
:13:05. > :13:12.socialist campaign slogan was, vote for the Crook, not the fascist. We
:13:13. > :13:14.will see what they come up with this time.
:13:15. > :13:18.The Daily Politics is back at noon tomorrow on BBC Two,
:13:19. > :13:24.where on Wednesday I will have full coverage of the Chancellor's Autumn
:13:25. > :13:33.But remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.