:00:38. > :00:41.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:42. > :00:45.Was Fidel Castro a revolutionary hero or a murderous dictator?
:00:46. > :00:50.After the Cuban leader's death, politicians divide over his legacy.
:00:51. > :00:54.Can the NHS in England find billions of pounds' worth of efficiency
:00:55. > :01:00.The Shadow Health Secretary joins me live.
:01:01. > :01:02.Should we have a second Brexit referendum on the terms
:01:03. > :01:07.of the eventual withdrawal deal that's struck with the EU?
:01:08. > :01:09.Former Lib Dem leader Paddy Ashdown and former Conservative cabinet
:01:10. > :01:14.minister Owen Paterson go head-to-head.
:01:15. > :01:18.Here, the impact of the Chancellor's statement in our region.
:01:19. > :01:21.And Labour claims the Cumbria and parts of the north-east
:01:22. > :01:33.are being punished by the Government to the cost of millions of pounds.
:01:34. > :01:36.And with me, Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.
:01:37. > :01:38.They'll be tweeting throughout the programme
:01:39. > :01:45.Political leaders around the world have been reacting to the news
:01:46. > :01:48.of the death of Fidel Castro, the Cuban revolutionary who came
:01:49. > :01:51.to power in 1959 and ushered in a Marxist revolution.
:01:52. > :01:57.Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson described the former leader
:01:58. > :01:59.as an "historic if controversial figure" and said his death marked
:02:00. > :02:04.Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn said Castro was "a champion of social
:02:05. > :02:06.justice" who had "seen off a lot of US presidents"
:02:07. > :02:10.President-elect Donald Trump described the former Cuban leader
:02:11. > :02:14.as a "brutal dictator", adding that he hoped his death
:02:15. > :02:17.would begin a new era "in which the wonderful Cuban people
:02:18. > :02:22.finally live in the freedom they so richly deserve".
:02:23. > :02:24.Meanwhile, the President of the European Commission,
:02:25. > :02:27.Jean-Claude Juncker, said the controversial leader
:02:28. > :02:29.was "a hero for many" but "his legacy will be judged
:02:30. > :02:45.I guess we had worked that out ourselves. What do you make of the
:02:46. > :02:49.reactions so far across the political divide? Predictable. And I
:02:50. > :02:57.noticed that Jeremy Corbyn has come in for criticism for his tribute to
:02:58. > :03:01.Castro. But I think it was the right thing for him to do. We all know he
:03:02. > :03:05.was an admirer. He could have sat there for eight hours in his house,
:03:06. > :03:08.agonising over some bland statement which didn't alienate the many
:03:09. > :03:12.people who want to wade into attacked Castro. It would have been
:03:13. > :03:17.inauthentic and would have just added to the sort of mainstream
:03:18. > :03:20.consensus, and I think he was right to say what he believed in this
:03:21. > :03:26.respect. Elsewhere, it has been wholly predictable that there would
:03:27. > :03:32.be this device, because he divided opinion in such an emotive way.
:03:33. > :03:34.Steve, I take your point about authenticity and it might have
:03:35. > :03:41.looked a bit lame for Jeremy Corbyn to pretend that he had no affection
:03:42. > :03:45.for Fidel Castro at all, but do you think he made a bit of an error
:03:46. > :03:49.dismissing Castro's record, the negative side of it as just a floor?
:03:50. > :03:56.He could have acknowledged in more elaborate terms the huge costs. He
:03:57. > :03:59.wanted to go on about the health and education, which if you actually
:04:00. > :04:02.look up the indices on that, they are good relative to other
:04:03. > :04:09.countries. But they have come at such a huge cost. He was not a
:04:10. > :04:12.champion of criminal justice. If he had done that, it would have been
:04:13. > :04:19.utterly inauthentic. He doesn't believe it. And he would have
:04:20. > :04:23.thought there would be many other people focusing on all the epic
:04:24. > :04:29.failings. So he focused on what he believed. There are times when
:04:30. > :04:34.Corbyn's prominence in the media world now as leader widens the
:04:35. > :04:41.debate in an interesting and important way. I am not aware of any
:04:42. > :04:52.criticisms that Mr Corbyn has ever announced about Mr Castro. There
:04:53. > :04:56.were four words in his statement yesterday which is spin doctor would
:04:57. > :05:05.have forced him to say, for all his flaws. He was on this Cuban
:05:06. > :05:09.solidarity committee, which didn't exist to criticise Castro. It
:05:10. > :05:13.existed to help protect Castro from those, particularly the Americans,
:05:14. > :05:18.who were trying to undermine him. And Corbyn made a big deal yesterday
:05:19. > :05:23.saying he has always called out human rights abuses all over the
:05:24. > :05:28.world. But he said that in general, I call out human rights abuses. He
:05:29. > :05:35.never said, I have called out human rights abuses in Cuba. In the weeks
:05:36. > :05:42.ahead, more will come out about what these human rights abuses were. The
:05:43. > :05:48.lid will come off what was actually happening. Some well authenticated
:05:49. > :05:55.stories are pretty horrendous. I was speaking to a journalist who was
:05:56. > :06:02.working there in the 1990s, who gave me vivid examples of that, and there
:06:03. > :06:06.will be more to come. I still go back to, when a major figure diet
:06:07. > :06:12.and you are a leader who has admired but major figure, you have to say
:06:13. > :06:28.it. That is the trap he has fallen into. He has proved every criticism
:06:29. > :06:35.that he is a duck old ideologue. But he is not the only one. Prime
:06:36. > :06:41.Minister Trudeau was so if uses that I wondered if they were going to
:06:42. > :06:45.open up a book of condolences. I think it reinforces Corbyn's failing
:06:46. > :06:49.brand. It may be authentic, but authentic isn't working for him.
:06:50. > :06:56.When I was driving, I heard Trevor Phillips, who is a Blairite, saying
:06:57. > :07:01.the record was mixed and there were a lot of things to admire as well as
:07:02. > :07:05.all the terrible things. So it is quite nuanced. But if you are a
:07:06. > :07:09.leader issuing a sound bite, there is no space for new ones. You either
:07:10. > :07:16.decide to go for the consensus, which is to set up on the whole, it
:07:17. > :07:20.was a brutal dictatorship. Or you say, here is an extraordinary figure
:07:21. > :07:25.worthy of admiration. In my view, he was right to say what he believed.
:07:26. > :07:28.There was still a dilemma for the British government over who they
:07:29. > :07:36.sent to the funeral. Do they sent nobody, do they say and Boris
:07:37. > :07:43.Johnson as a post-ironic statement? There is now a post-Castro Cuba to
:07:44. > :07:46.deal with. Trump was quite diplomatic about post-Castro Cuba.
:07:47. > :07:56.And Boris Johnson's statement was restrained. The thing about Mr
:07:57. > :07:59.Castro was the longevity, 50 years of keeping Marxism on the island.
:08:00. > :08:00.That was what made it so fascinating.
:08:01. > :08:04.Before the last election, George Osborne promised the NHS
:08:05. > :08:07.in England a real-terms funding boost of ?8 billion per year by 2020
:08:08. > :08:10.on the understanding that NHS bosses would also find ?22 billion worth
:08:11. > :08:17.Since last autumn, NHS managers have been drawing up what they're calling
:08:18. > :08:20."Sustainability and Transformation Plans" to make these savings,
:08:21. > :08:27.but some of the proposals are already running into local
:08:28. > :08:30.opposition, while Labour say they amount to huge cuts to the NHS.
:08:31. > :08:36.Help is on the way for an elderly person in need in Hertfordshire.
:08:37. > :08:39.But east of England ambulance call operators
:08:40. > :08:43.they're sending an early intervention vehicle
:08:44. > :08:51.with a council-employed occupational therapist on board.
:08:52. > :08:53.It's being piloted here for over 65s with
:08:54. > :08:58.When they arrive, a paramedic judges if the patient can be
:08:59. > :09:01.treated immediately at home without a trip to hospital.
:09:02. > :09:03.Around 80% of patients have been treated this way,
:09:04. > :09:06.taking the strain off urgently-needed hospital beds,
:09:07. > :09:13.So the early intervention team has assessed the patient and decided
:09:14. > :09:26.The key to successful integration for Hertfordshire being able
:09:27. > :09:28.to collaboratively look at how we use our resources,
:09:29. > :09:30.to have pooled budgets, to allow us to understand
:09:31. > :09:33.where spend is, and to let us make conscientious decisions about how
:09:34. > :09:38.best to use that money, to come up with ideas to problems
:09:39. > :09:40.that sit between our organisations, to look at things collaboratively.
:09:41. > :09:43.This Hertfordshire hospital is also a good example of how
:09:44. > :09:50.You won't find an A unit or overnight beds here any more.
:09:51. > :09:56.The closest ones are 20 minutes down the road.
:09:57. > :09:58.What's left is nurse-led care in an NHS-built hospital.
:09:59. > :10:01.Despite a politically toxic change, this reconfiguration went
:10:02. > :10:03.through after broad public and political consultation
:10:04. > :10:07.with hospital clinicians and GPs on board.
:10:08. > :10:11.It's a notable achievement that's surely of interest to 60% of NHS
:10:12. > :10:17.trusts in England that reported a deficit at the end of September.
:10:18. > :10:21.It's not just here that the NHS needs to save money and provide
:10:22. > :10:27.The Government is going to pour in an extra ?8 billion into the NHS
:10:28. > :10:34.in England, but it has demanded ?22 billion
:10:35. > :10:35.worth of efficiencies across the country.
:10:36. > :10:38.In order to deliver that, the NHS has created 44 health
:10:39. > :10:41.and care partnerships, and each one will provide
:10:42. > :10:45.a sustainability and transformation plan, or STP, to integrate care,
:10:46. > :10:49.provide better services and save money.
:10:50. > :10:53.So far, 33 of these 44 regional plans, drawn up by senior people
:10:54. > :10:55.in the health service and local government,
:10:56. > :11:02.The NHS has been through five years of severely constrained spending
:11:03. > :11:05.growth, and there are another 4-5 years on the way at least.
:11:06. > :11:12.STPs themselves are an attempt to deal in a planned way
:11:13. > :11:18.But with plans to close some A units and reduce the number
:11:19. > :11:23.of hospital beds, there's likely to be a tough political battle
:11:24. > :11:27.ahead, with many MPs already up in arms about proposed
:11:28. > :11:31.This Tory backbencher is concerned about the local plans for his
:11:32. > :11:39.I wouldn't call it an efficiency if you are proposing to close
:11:40. > :11:43.all of the beds which are currently provided for those coming out
:11:44. > :11:44.of the acute sector who are elderly and looking
:11:45. > :11:48.That's not a cut, it's not an efficiency saving,
:11:49. > :11:57.All 44 STPs should be published in a month's time,
:11:58. > :12:02.But even before that, they dominated this week's PMQs.
:12:03. > :12:04.The Government's sustainability and transformation plans
:12:05. > :12:10.for the National Health Service hide ?22 billion of cuts.
:12:11. > :12:13.The National Health Service is indeed looking for savings
:12:14. > :12:18.within the NHS, which will be reinvested in the NHS.
:12:19. > :12:21.There will be no escape from angry MPs for the Health Secretary either.
:12:22. > :12:25.Well, I have spoken to the Secretary of State just this week
:12:26. > :12:29.about the importance of community hospitals in general,
:12:30. > :12:35.These are proposals out to consultation.
:12:36. > :12:40.What could happen if these plans get blocked?
:12:41. > :12:43.If STPs cannot be made to work, the planned changes don't come
:12:44. > :12:49.to pass, then the NHS will see over time a sort of unplanned
:12:50. > :12:50.deterioration and services becoming unstable and service
:12:51. > :12:57.The NHS barely featured in this week's Autumn Statement
:12:58. > :13:04.but the Prime Minister insisted beforehand that STPs
:13:05. > :13:06.are in the interests of local people.
:13:07. > :13:08.Her Government's support will now be critical for NHS England
:13:09. > :13:10.to push through these controversial regional plans,
:13:11. > :13:16.which will soon face public scrutiny.
:13:17. > :13:21.We did ask the Department of Health for an interview,
:13:22. > :13:25.I've been joined by the Shadow Health Secretary,
:13:26. > :13:42.Do you accept that the NHS is capable of making ?22 billion of
:13:43. > :13:45.efficiency savings? Well, we are very sceptical, as are number of
:13:46. > :13:50.independent organisations about the ability of the NHS to find 22
:13:51. > :13:54.billion of efficiencies without that affecting front line care. When you
:13:55. > :13:58.drill down into the 22 billion, based on the information we have
:13:59. > :14:01.been given, and there hasn't been much information, we can see that
:14:02. > :14:05.some of it will come from cutting the budget which go to community
:14:06. > :14:09.pharmacies, which could lead, according to ministers, to 3000
:14:10. > :14:13.pharmacies closing, which we believe will increase demands on A and
:14:14. > :14:18.GPs, and also that a lot of these changes which are being proposed,
:14:19. > :14:25.which was the focus of the package, we think will mean service cuts at a
:14:26. > :14:32.local level. Do they? The chief executive of NHS England says these
:14:33. > :14:35.efficiency plans are "Incredibly important". He used to work from
:14:36. > :14:42.Labour. The independent King's Fund calls them "The best hope to improve
:14:43. > :14:49.health and care services. There is no plan B". On the sustainable
:14:50. > :14:52.transformation plans, which will be across England to link up physical
:14:53. > :14:56.health, mental health and social care, for those services to
:14:57. > :14:59.collaborate more closely together and move beyond the fragmented
:15:00. > :15:05.system we have at the moment is important. It seems that the ground
:15:06. > :15:09.has shifted. It has moved into filling financial gaps. As we know,
:15:10. > :15:14.the NHS is going through the biggest financial squeeze in its history. By
:15:15. > :15:18.2018, per head spending on the NHS will be falling. If you want to
:15:19. > :15:24.redesign services for the long term in a local area, you need to put the
:15:25. > :15:27.money in. So of course, getting these services working better
:15:28. > :15:30.together and having a greater strategic oversight, which we would
:15:31. > :15:36.have had if we had not got rid of strategic health authority is in the
:15:37. > :15:41.last Parliament. But this is not an attempt to save 22 billion, this is
:15:42. > :15:47.an attempt to spend 22 billion more successfully, don't you accept that?
:15:48. > :15:55.Simon Stevens said we need 8 billion, and we need to find 22
:15:56. > :16:00.billion of savings. You have to spend 22 billion more efficiently.
:16:01. > :16:05.But the Government have not given that 8 billion to the NHS which they
:16:06. > :16:10.said they would. They said they would do it by 2020. But they have
:16:11. > :16:15.changed the definitions of spending so NHS England will get 8 billion by
:16:16. > :16:21.2020, but they have cut the public health budgets by about 4 million by
:16:22. > :16:25.20 20. The budget that going to initiatives to tackle sexually
:16:26. > :16:30.transmitted diseases, to tackle smoking have been cut back but the
:16:31. > :16:34.commissioning of things like school nurses and health visitors have been
:16:35. > :16:39.cut back as well. Simon Stevens said he can only deliver that five-year
:16:40. > :16:42.project if there is a radical upgrade in public health, which the
:16:43. > :16:48.Government have failed on, and if we deal with social care, and this week
:16:49. > :16:55.there was an... I understand that, but if you don't think the
:16:56. > :17:00.efficiency drive can free up 22 billion to take us to 30 billion by
:17:01. > :17:05.2020, where would you get the money from? I have been in this post now
:17:06. > :17:08.for five or six weeks and I want to have a big consultation with
:17:09. > :17:13.everybody who works in the health sector, as well as patients, carers
:17:14. > :17:21.and families. Though you don't know? I think it would be surprised if I
:17:22. > :17:27.had an arbitrary figure this soon into the job. Your party said they
:17:28. > :17:31.expected election of spring by this year, you need to have some idea by
:17:32. > :17:37.now, you inherited a portfolio from Diane Abbott, did she have no idea?
:17:38. > :17:41.To govern is to make choices and we would make different choices. The
:17:42. > :17:48.budget last year scored billions of giveaways in things like
:17:49. > :17:59.co-operating -- corporation tax. What I do want to do... Is work on a
:18:00. > :18:06.plan and the general election, whenever it comes, next year or in
:18:07. > :18:10.2020 or in between, to have costed plan for the NHS. But your party is
:18:11. > :18:15.committed to balancing the books on current spending, that is currently
:18:16. > :18:21.John McDonnell, the Shadow Chancellor's position. What we are
:18:22. > :18:25.talking about, this extra 30 billion, that is essentially current
:18:26. > :18:29.spending so if it doesn't come from efficiency savings, where does the
:18:30. > :18:36.money come from? Some of it is also capital. Mainly current spending. If
:18:37. > :18:47.you look at the details of the OBR, they have switched a million from
:18:48. > :18:51.the capital into revenue. Why -- how do you balance spending?
:18:52. > :19:00.That is why we need to have a debate. Every time we ask for
:19:01. > :19:04.Labour's policy, we are always told me a debate. Surely it is time to
:19:05. > :19:07.give some idea of what you stand for? There's huge doubts about the
:19:08. > :19:13.Government 's policy on this. You are the opposition, how would you do
:19:14. > :19:17.it? I want to work with John McDonnell to find a package to give
:19:18. > :19:20.the NHS the money it needs, but of course our Shadow Chancellor, like
:19:21. > :19:24.any Shadow Chancellor at this stage in the cycle, will want to see what
:19:25. > :19:31.the books look like a head of an election before making commitments.
:19:32. > :19:34.I am clear that the Labour Party has to go into the next general election
:19:35. > :19:36.with a clear policy to give the NHS the funding it needs because it has
:19:37. > :19:42.been going through the largest financial squeeze in its history.
:19:43. > :19:47.You say Labour will always give the NHS the money it needs, that is not
:19:48. > :19:52.a policy, it is a blank cheque. It is an indication of our commitment
:19:53. > :19:56.to the NHS. Under this Conservative government, the NHS has been getting
:19:57. > :20:01.a 1% increase. Throughout its history it has usually have about
:20:02. > :20:06.4%. Under the last Labour government it was getting 4%, before that
:20:07. > :20:09.substantially more. We think the NHS should get more but I don't have
:20:10. > :20:18.access to the NHS books in front of me. The public thinks there needs to
:20:19. > :20:22.be more money spent on health but they also think that should go cap
:20:23. > :20:28.in hand with the money being more efficiently spent, which is what
:20:29. > :20:33.this efficiency drive is designed to release 22 billion. Do you have an
:20:34. > :20:38.efficiency drive if it is not the Government's one? Of course we
:20:39. > :20:43.agree. We agree the NHS should be more efficient, we want to see
:20:44. > :20:50.productivity increased. Do know how to do that? One way is through
:20:51. > :20:57.investments, maintenance, but there is a 5 million maintenance backlog.
:20:58. > :21:04.One of the most high risk backlogs is something like 730 million. They
:21:05. > :21:08.are going to switch the capital spend into revenue spend. I believe
:21:09. > :21:11.that when you invest in maintenance and capital in the NHS, that
:21:12. > :21:15.contribute to increasing its productivity. You are now talking
:21:16. > :21:22.about 5 billion the maintenance, the chief executive says it needs 30
:21:23. > :21:28.billion more by 2020 as a minimum so that 35 billion. You want to spend
:21:29. > :21:32.more on social care, another for 5 billion on that so we have proper
:21:33. > :21:36.care in the community. By that calculation I'm up to about 40
:21:37. > :21:41.billion, which is fine, except where do you get the and balance the
:21:42. > :21:45.account at the same time? We will have to come up with a plan for that
:21:46. > :21:48.and that's why I will work with our Shadow Treasury team to come up with
:21:49. > :21:53.that plan when they head into the general election. At the moment we
:21:54. > :21:56.are saying to the NHS, sorry, we are not going to give you the
:21:57. > :22:04.investment, which is why we are seeing patient care deteriorating.
:22:05. > :22:10.The staff are doing incredible things but 180,000 are waiting in
:22:11. > :22:13.A beyond four hours, record levels of people delayed in beds in
:22:14. > :22:18.hospitals because there are not the beds in the community to go to save
:22:19. > :22:21.the NHS needs the investment. We know that and we know the
:22:22. > :22:25.Government's response to that and many think it is inadequate. What
:22:26. > :22:29.I'm trying to get from you is what your response would be and what your
:22:30. > :22:34.reaction will be to these efficiency plans. Your colleague Heidi
:22:35. > :22:40.Alexander, she had your job earlier this year, she warned of the danger
:22:41. > :22:47.of knee jerk blanket opposition to local efficiency plans. Do you agree
:22:48. > :22:53.with that? Yes. So every time a hospital is going to close as a
:22:54. > :22:57.result of this, and some will, it is Labour default position not just
:22:58. > :23:02.going to be we are against it? That is why we are going to judge each of
:23:03. > :23:06.these sustainability plans by a number of yardsticks. We want to see
:23:07. > :23:09.if they have the support of local clinicians, we want to see if they
:23:10. > :23:12.have the support of local authorities because they now have a
:23:13. > :23:17.role in the delivery of health care. We want to see if they make the
:23:18. > :23:21.right decisions for the long-term trends in population for local area.
:23:22. > :23:24.We want to see if they integrate social care and health. If they
:23:25. > :23:30.don't and therefore you will not bank that as an efficiency saving,
:23:31. > :23:34.you will say no, that's not the way to go, you are left then with
:23:35. > :23:40.finding the alternative funding to keep the NHS going. If you are
:23:41. > :23:46.cutting beds, for example the proposal is to cut something like
:23:47. > :23:50.5000 beds in Derbyshire and if there is the space in the community sector
:23:51. > :23:54.in Derbyshire, that will cause big problems for the NHS in the long
:23:55. > :23:59.term so it is a false economy. An example like that, we would be very
:24:00. > :24:03.sceptical the plans could work. Would it not be honest, given the
:24:04. > :24:08.sums of money involved and your doubts about the efficiency plan,
:24:09. > :24:14.which are shared by many people, to just say, look, among the wealthy
:24:15. > :24:20.nations, we spend a lower proportion of our GDP on health than most of
:24:21. > :24:25.the other countries, European countries included, we need to put
:24:26. > :24:30.up tax if we want a proper NHS. Wouldn't that be honest? I'm not the
:24:31. > :24:36.Shadow Chancellor, I don't make taxation policy. You are tempting me
:24:37. > :24:40.down a particular road by you or I smile. John McDonnell will come up
:24:41. > :24:44.with our taxation policy. We have had an ambition to meet the European
:24:45. > :24:47.average, the way these things are measured have changed since then,
:24:48. > :24:54.but we did have that ambition and for a few years we met it. We need
:24:55. > :24:56.substantial investment in the NHS. Everyone accepts it was
:24:57. > :25:01.extraordinary that there wasn't an extra penny for the NHS in the
:25:02. > :25:06.Autumn Statement this week. And as we go into the general election,
:25:07. > :25:10.whenever it is, we will have a plan for the NHS. Come back and speak to
:25:11. > :25:13.us when you know what you are going to do. Thank you.
:25:14. > :25:15.Theresa May has promised to trigger formal Brexit negotiations
:25:16. > :25:18.before the end of March, but the Prime Minister must wait
:25:19. > :25:20.for the Supreme Court to decide whether parliament must vote
:25:21. > :25:23.If that is the Supreme Court's conclusion, the Liberal Democrats
:25:24. > :25:26.and others in parliament have said they'll demand a second EU
:25:27. > :25:28.referendum on the terms of the eventual Brexit deal before
:25:29. > :25:32.And last week, two former Prime Ministers suggested
:25:33. > :25:35.that the referendum result could be reversed.
:25:36. > :25:38.In an interview with the New Statesman on Thursday,
:25:39. > :25:41.Tony Blair said, "It can be stopped if the British people decide that,
:25:42. > :25:43.having seen what it means, the pain-gain cost-benefit analysis
:25:44. > :25:50.John Major also weighed in, telling a meeting
:25:51. > :25:52.of the National Liberal Club that the terms of Brexit
:25:53. > :25:55.were being dictated by the "tyranny of the majority".
:25:56. > :25:57.He also said there is a "perfectly credible case"
:25:58. > :26:01.That prompted the former Conservative leader
:26:02. > :26:04.Iain Duncan Smith to criticise John Major.
:26:05. > :26:07.He told the BBC, "The idea we delay everything simply
:26:08. > :26:09.because they disagree with the original result does
:26:10. > :26:14.seem to me an absolute dismissal of democracy."
:26:15. > :26:17.So, is there a realistic chance of a second referendum on the terms
:26:18. > :26:22.of whatever Brexit deal Theresa May manages to secure?
:26:23. > :26:25.Lib Dem party leader Tim Farron has said, "We want to respect
:26:26. > :26:28.the will of the people and that means they must have their say
:26:29. > :26:32.in a referendum on the terms of the deal."
:26:33. > :26:35.But the Lib Dems have just eight MPs - they'll need Labour support
:26:36. > :26:41.One ally is former Labour leadership candidate Owen Smith.
:26:42. > :26:44.He backs the idea of a second referendum.
:26:45. > :26:47.But yesterday the party's deputy leader, Tom Watson, said that,
:26:48. > :26:49."Unlike the Lib Dem Brexit Deniers, we believe in respecting
:26:50. > :26:58.To discuss whether or not there should be a second referendum
:26:59. > :27:00.on the terms of the Brexit deal, I've been joined by two
:27:01. > :27:04.In Somerset is the former Lib Dem leader Paddy Ashdown,
:27:05. > :27:06.and in Shropshire is the former Conservative cabinet minister
:27:07. > :27:18.Paddy Ashdown, let me come to you first. When the British people have
:27:19. > :27:23.spoken, you do what they command, either you believe in democracy or
:27:24. > :27:30.you don't. When democracy speaks, we obey. Your words on the night of the
:27:31. > :27:34.referendum, what's changed? Nothing has changed, Andrew, that's what I
:27:35. > :27:38.said and what I still believe in. The British people have spoken, we
:27:39. > :27:45.will not block Parliament debating the Brexit decision, Article 50, but
:27:46. > :27:51.we will introduce an amendment to say that we need to consult the
:27:52. > :27:58.British people, not about if we go out but what destination we would
:27:59. > :28:02.then achieve. There is a vast difference in ordinary people's
:28:03. > :28:07.lives between the so-called hard Brexit and soft Brexit. Soft Brexit,
:28:08. > :28:11.you remain in the single market, you have to accept and agree on
:28:12. > :28:20.immigration. Hard Brexit you are out of the single market, we have many
:28:21. > :28:25.fewer jobs... Why didn't you say before the referendum there would be
:28:26. > :28:29.a second referendum on the terms? Forgive me, I said it on many
:28:30. > :28:34.occasions, you may not have covered it, Andrew, but that's a different
:28:35. > :28:39.thing. In every speech I gave I said this, and this has proved to be
:28:40. > :28:42.true, since those who recommended Brexit refused to tell us the
:28:43. > :28:47.destination they were recommending, they refuse to give any detail about
:28:48. > :28:51.the destination, if we did vote to go out, it would probably be
:28:52. > :28:56.appropriate to decide which destination, hard Brexit or soft
:28:57. > :29:00.Brexit we go to. They deliberately obscure that because it made it more
:29:01. > :29:06.difficult to argue the case. It wasn't part of the official campaign
:29:07. > :29:11.but let me come to Owen Paterson. What's wrong with a referendum on
:29:12. > :29:14.the terms of the deal? We voted to leave but we don't really know on
:29:15. > :29:18.what conditions we leave so what's wrong with negotiating the deal and
:29:19. > :29:26.putting that deal to the British people? This would be a ridiculous
:29:27. > :29:30.idea, it would be a complete gift to the EU negotiators to go for an
:29:31. > :29:34.impossibly difficult deal because they want to do everything to make
:29:35. > :29:40.sure that Brexit does not go through. This nonsense idea of hard
:29:41. > :29:44.Brexit and soft Brexit, it was never discussed during the referendum
:29:45. > :29:49.campaign. We made it clear we wanted to take back control, that means
:29:50. > :29:53.making our own laws, raising and spending the money agreed by elected
:29:54. > :29:57.politicians, getting control of our own borders back, and getting
:29:58. > :30:01.control of our ability to do trade deals around the world. That was
:30:02. > :30:06.clear at all stages of the referendum. We got 17.4 million
:30:07. > :30:12.votes, the biggest vote in history for any issue, that 52%, 10% more
:30:13. > :30:17.than John Major got and he was happy with his record number of 14
:30:18. > :30:21.million, more than Tony Blair got, which was 43%, so we have a very
:30:22. > :30:26.clear mandate. Time and again people come up to me and say when are we
:30:27. > :30:29.going to get on with this. The big problem is uncertainty. We want to
:30:30. > :30:32.trigger Article 50, have the negotiation and get to a better
:30:33. > :30:41.place. OK, I need to get a debate going.
:30:42. > :30:45.Paddy Ashdown, the EU doesn't want us to leave. If they knew there was
:30:46. > :30:48.going to be a second referendum, surely there was going to be a
:30:49. > :30:50.second referendum, surely their incentive would be to give us the
:30:51. > :30:55.worst possible deal would vote against it would put us in a
:30:56. > :30:59.ridiculous negotiating position. On the contrary, the government could
:31:00. > :31:02.go and negotiate with the European Union and anyway, the opinion of the
:31:03. > :31:06.European Union is less important than the opinion of the British
:31:07. > :31:11.people. It seems to me that Owen Paterson made the case for me
:31:12. > :31:17.precisely. They refuse to discuss what kind of destination. Britain
:31:18. > :31:19.voted for departure, but not a destination. Because Owen Paterson
:31:20. > :31:25.and his colleagues refused to discuss what their model was. So the
:31:26. > :31:28.range of options here and the impact on the people of Britain is huge.
:31:29. > :31:32.There is nothing to stop the government going to negotiate,
:31:33. > :31:37.getting the best deal it can and go into the British people and saying,
:31:38. > :31:45.this is the deal, guys, do you agree? Owen Paterson? It is simple.
:31:46. > :31:52.The British people voted to leave. We voted to take back control of our
:31:53. > :31:55.laws, our money, our borders. But most people don't know the shape of
:31:56. > :32:02.what the deal would be. So why not have a vote on it? Because it would
:32:03. > :32:07.be a gift to the EU negotiators to drive the worst possible deal in the
:32:08. > :32:11.hope that it might be chucked out with a second referendum. The
:32:12. > :32:18.biggest danger is the uncertainty. We have the biggest vote in British
:32:19. > :32:21.history. You have said all that. It was your side that originally
:32:22. > :32:27.proposed a second referendum. The director of Leave said, there is a
:32:28. > :32:33.strong democratic case for a referendum on what the deal looks
:32:34. > :32:44.like. Your side. Come on, you are digging up a blog from June of 2015.
:32:45. > :32:51.He said he had not come to a conclusion. He said it is a distinct
:32:52. > :32:56.possibility. No senior members of the campaign said we would have a
:32:57. > :33:00.second referendum. It is worth chucking Paddy the quote he gave on
:33:01. > :33:04.ITV news, whether it is a majority of 1% or 20%, when the British
:33:05. > :33:11.people have spoken, you do what they command. People come up to me and
:33:12. > :33:20.keep asking, when are you going to get on with it? What do you say to
:33:21. > :33:23.that, Paddy Ashdown? Owen Paterson has obviously not been paying
:33:24. > :33:34.attention. You ask me that question at the start. Owen and his kind have
:33:35. > :33:37.to stick to the same argument. During the referendum, when we said
:33:38. > :33:43.that the Europeans have it in their interest to picket tough for us,
:33:44. > :33:47.they would suffer as well. And that has proved to be right. The European
:33:48. > :33:52.Union does not wish to hand as a bad deal, because they may suffer in the
:33:53. > :34:04.process. We need the best deal for both sides. I can't understand why
:34:05. > :34:08.Owen is now reversing that argument. Here is the question I am going to
:34:09. > :34:17.ask you. If we have a second referendum on the deal and we vote
:34:18. > :34:28.by a very small amount, by a sliver, to stay in, can we then make it
:34:29. > :34:33.best-of-3? No, Andrew! Vince Cable says he thinks if you won, he would
:34:34. > :34:38.have to have a decider. You will have to put that income tax, because
:34:39. > :34:46.I don't remember when he said that. -- you have to put that in context.
:34:47. > :34:52.Independent, 19th of September. That is a decision on the outcome. The
:34:53. > :34:57.central point is that the British people voted for departure, not a
:34:58. > :35:02.destination. In response to the claim that this is undemocratic, if
:35:03. > :35:07.it is democratic to have one referendum, how can it be
:35:08. > :35:10.undemocratic to have two? Owen Paterson, the British government, on
:35:11. > :35:14.the brink of triggering article 50, cannot tell us if we will remain
:35:15. > :35:20.members of the single market, if we will remain members of the customs
:35:21. > :35:25.union. From that flows our ability to make trade deals, our attitude
:35:26. > :35:27.towards freedom of movement and the rest of it. Given that the
:35:28. > :35:31.government can't tell us, it is clear that the British people have
:35:32. > :35:37.no idea what the eventual shape will be. That is surely the fundamental
:35:38. > :35:44.case for a second referendum. Emphatically not. They have given a
:35:45. > :35:51.clear vote. That vote was to take back control. What the establishment
:35:52. > :35:54.figures like Paddy should recognise is the shattering damage it would do
:35:55. > :36:01.to the integrity of the whole political process if this was not
:36:02. > :36:05.delivered. People come up to me, as I have said for the third time now,
:36:06. > :36:10.wanting to know when we will get article 50 triggered. Both people
:36:11. > :36:15.who have voted to Remain and to Leave. If we do not deliver this, it
:36:16. > :36:18.will be disastrous for the reputation and integrity of the
:36:19. > :36:27.whole political establishment. Let me put that you Paddy Ashdown. It is
:36:28. > :36:31.very Brussels elite - were ask your question but if we don't like the
:36:32. > :36:39.answer, we will keep asking the question. Did it with the Irish and
:36:40. > :36:46.French. It is... It would really anger the British people, would it
:36:47. > :36:50.not? That is an interesting question, Andrew. I don't think it
:36:51. > :36:53.would. All the evidence I see in public meetings I attended, and I
:36:54. > :36:56.think it is beginning to show in the opinion polls, although there hasn't
:36:57. > :37:00.been a proper one on this yet, I suspect there is a majority in
:37:01. > :37:03.Britain who would wish to see a second referendum on the outcome.
:37:04. > :37:08.They take the same view as I do. What began with an open democratic
:37:09. > :37:12.process cannot end with a government stitch up. Contrary to what Owen
:37:13. > :37:19.suggests, there is public support for this. And far from damaging the
:37:20. > :37:24.government and the political class, it showed that we are prepared to
:37:25. > :37:33.listen. We shall see. Paddy Ashdown, have you eaten your hat yet? Andrew,
:37:34. > :37:38.as you well know, I have eaten five hats. You cannot have a second
:37:39. > :37:41.referendum until you eat your hat on my programme. We will leave it
:37:42. > :37:49.there. Paddy Ashdown and Owen Paterson, thank you much. I have
:37:50. > :37:51.eaten a hat on your programme. I don't remember!
:37:52. > :37:54.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:55. > :38:08.Hello. in Scotland, who leave us now
:38:09. > :38:10.The warmest of welcomes to this part of the show.
:38:11. > :38:21.This weekend, claims that the Government have delivered
:38:22. > :38:24.a punishment beating to Cumbria as part of penalising them
:38:25. > :38:26.for not signing up to a devolution deal and an elected mayor.
:38:27. > :38:28.We get a response from the northern powerhouse minister.
:38:29. > :38:31.Attempting at least to make some sense of the Autumn Statement
:38:32. > :38:34.and what it means for us here are the Labour MP
:38:35. > :38:36.for Bishop Auckland Helen Goodman, Northeast liberal Democrat peer John
:38:37. > :38:38.Shipley and Stockton Conservative councillor Matthew Vickers.
:38:39. > :38:42.So, it was an Autumn Statement designed for ordinary working class
:38:43. > :38:44.people and their families according to the Chancellor at least.
:38:45. > :38:47.With an increase of the living wage, changes to universal
:38:48. > :38:48.credit and investment in affordable housing.
:38:49. > :38:51.So, how did it go down amongst some of its target
:38:52. > :38:58.Minimum-wage should go up along with inflation
:38:59. > :39:05.The cost of living is starting to go up and even if you're on a good
:39:06. > :39:07.wage, that cost of living is starting to affect people.
:39:08. > :39:10.Everybody should be on at least ?10 an hour.
:39:11. > :39:22.There were things that will benefit ordinary families
:39:23. > :39:25.in your constituency, raising the living wage,
:39:26. > :39:27.adjusting universal credit so people can keep more of their money,
:39:28. > :39:34.freezing fuel duty in particular will help people.
:39:35. > :39:36.Given the state of the public finances, it wasn't bad.
:39:37. > :39:38.I think the underlying problem was the forecast.
:39:39. > :39:41.The economy is going to grow more slowly, so earnings
:39:42. > :39:48.Inflation as the woman said is going to be up in the New Year.
:39:49. > :39:51.That means that by 2021, on average, people will not
:39:52. > :39:53.be earning as much as they were in 2008.
:39:54. > :39:58.And that is before we come on to what the Chancellor did
:39:59. > :40:02.Matthew Vickers, the rising cost of living is worrying
:40:03. > :40:07.The small amount that was done in the Autumn Statement will not
:40:08. > :40:10.compensate if inflation does rise is expected for some of the poorest
:40:11. > :40:13.people in society and people are working on low wages as well.
:40:14. > :40:16.I think there was the increase in the living wage, which it
:40:17. > :40:21.I would like to have ?500 in my back pocket and that is what a full-time
:40:22. > :40:26.I also think that the personal tax allowance, it is still there.
:40:27. > :40:28.It is still doing a very good job for the lowest
:40:29. > :40:32.And it is ranking up a bit and I think it is
:40:33. > :40:36.John Shipley, the key here is that we're actually as the Chancellor
:40:37. > :40:47.As the Chancellor said, employment is rising fast
:40:48. > :40:58.It's part of an indication as to how well things are doing.
:40:59. > :41:00.So, you are right about the employment levels.
:41:01. > :41:03.The difficulty is that the pay levels that the wages and the people
:41:04. > :41:05.receive an actually lower than we would like them to be.
:41:06. > :41:11.Of course, this is rightly pointed out by Helen,
:41:12. > :41:14.people will be no better off than we were 2008.
:41:15. > :41:16.And notice the small print in the Autumn Statement.
:41:17. > :41:19.Up two percentage points from ten to 12%.
:41:20. > :41:24.Now, if you have got paid insurance you're going to have to pay more
:41:25. > :41:28.Some of these things in the end just about evens out for most people.
:41:29. > :41:30.Overall, wage levels are just too depressed.
:41:31. > :41:31.Helen Goodman, these are only forecasts, aren't they?
:41:32. > :41:35.A lot of people are very gloomy about the economy up to now.
:41:36. > :41:38.Actually, those fears have not been proven true.
:41:39. > :41:41.So it is not all necessarily going to be doom and gloom
:41:42. > :41:48.Of course they are forecasts, but we know that the Chancellor
:41:49. > :41:51.is freezing the universal credit tax credits and he has only taken
:41:52. > :42:00.And that is going to take ?390 a year off 11 million families.
:42:01. > :42:03.That is his responsibility and the actions that he is taking.
:42:04. > :42:06.So, I think the outlook is quite gloomy and I am not really
:42:07. > :42:16.It is true that there was a call for him to change
:42:17. > :42:20.policies on universal credit, he didn't.
:42:21. > :42:22.That is going to really harm these people.
:42:23. > :42:24.Universal credit, there has been amendments to the...
:42:25. > :42:27.Those people who are going back into work will have a little bit
:42:28. > :42:29.extra assistance while they are getting back into work.
:42:30. > :42:31.That won't compensate for that freeze though, will it?
:42:32. > :42:34.It won't compensate for that freeze, but there are a lot
:42:35. > :42:38.We are about helping those who are just about managing in work.
:42:39. > :42:42.That is what we are delivering for people.
:42:43. > :42:45.People who are going out early in the morning to get to work,
:42:46. > :42:48.we're putting that living wage, we're increasing up for them.
:42:49. > :42:53.We're giving them that personal tax allowance.
:42:54. > :42:58.Let us look in more detail about what the Chancellor announced
:42:59. > :43:00.and there were hopes that it might see millions invested
:43:01. > :43:04.That is certainly something Northeast Labour MPs called
:43:05. > :43:06.Did the reality live up to expectations?
:43:07. > :43:09.Two roads that link our region, but not always at express speed.
:43:10. > :43:11.They prove the centrepoint of the transport investment
:43:12. > :43:18.The A66 from Darlington to Penrith will be dualled,
:43:19. > :43:21.although work won't be beginning until 2020.
:43:22. > :43:23.And although two A69 junctions will be improved,
:43:24. > :43:26.it will remain largely single carriageway from Hexham to Carlisle.
:43:27. > :43:28.It was also funded a case for a north-west Darlington bypass.
:43:29. > :43:31.It was not enough to convince some that the Government was giving
:43:32. > :43:34.The economic contribution of effective transport
:43:35. > :43:37.infrastructure for the north-east is not recognised in the same way
:43:38. > :43:41.in which it is recognised in London and in other areas of the south.
:43:42. > :43:46.And that is something that absolutely has to change
:43:47. > :43:50.if we are going to have any hope of rebalancing our economy to make
:43:51. > :44:04.it more resilient and more distributed across the country.
:44:05. > :44:10.The A66 decision does come across a ?300 million investment
:44:11. > :44:18.that is about to join some sections of the A61 in Northumberland.
:44:19. > :44:20.Even the area's Conservative MP combined praise
:44:21. > :44:24.I will of course take the opportunity of I may Mr Chairman
:44:25. > :44:27.to say that we are only doing about a third of what remains
:44:28. > :44:34.All the way through to Scotland and we will continue to press
:44:35. > :44:37.as the economic case becomes clearer for their continued duelling.
:44:38. > :44:39.At least we had some details on roads.
:44:40. > :44:41.There is no news on yet of any investment in railways.
:44:42. > :44:44.Some feel plans to reopen local passenger light in places
:44:45. > :44:46.like Wearside Northumberland will be seen as second-class.
:44:47. > :44:49.My favourite over the next I think 20 or 30 years that most
:44:50. > :44:52.of the money will be swamped and sucked into the vanity project
:44:53. > :44:56.I know there are those in the region who try
:44:57. > :44:59.and lecture is all about how important this is to the north-east.
:45:00. > :45:04.It is going to be a drain on investment that could go
:45:05. > :45:10.Then there is the Tyne and Wier metro.
:45:11. > :45:12.In chaos again this week as the ageing infrastructure
:45:13. > :45:15.MPs say the Government needs to dig deep.
:45:16. > :45:21.The main reasons that many people are experiencing regular delays
:45:22. > :45:24.and cancellations on the Metro is the deteriorating state of its
:45:25. > :45:33.rolling stock much of which dates back to the 1970s and is
:45:34. > :45:37.I urge the Minister and the Department to make
:45:38. > :45:42.a decision about Government investment as soon as possible.
:45:43. > :45:48.My Department is working with them to develop
:45:49. > :45:55.I cannot give you any indications as to telling the winner will be
:45:56. > :45:57.decided on, but I will need to listen first.
:45:58. > :45:59.Ministers said the north did get the fair share.
:46:00. > :46:03.The image of metro passengers queueing for a replacement bus,
:46:04. > :46:07.Helen Goodman, the duelling of the A66, over the Pennines.
:46:08. > :46:09.That is something that people have been campaigning
:46:10. > :46:12.People in your constituency would be very pleased
:46:13. > :46:16.Yes, it does go through my constituency and it is good.
:46:17. > :46:18.But if you're trying to sell something made in Middlesbrough
:46:19. > :46:21.in Liverpool, at the moment, you have got to go through a 30mph
:46:22. > :46:24.zone in the suburbs of Darlington so, is going to take
:46:25. > :46:27.There is some funding to look at that there was well.
:46:28. > :46:30.To look at building up a case to bypass Darlington.
:46:31. > :46:32.I think they are talking about the north of Darlington.
:46:33. > :46:34.Not the south, which is what it ought to be.
:46:35. > :46:36.But let us not get bogged down in the detail.
:46:37. > :46:39.The fundamental problem is that for every ?300 spent on transport
:46:40. > :46:41.infrastructure in our region, London gets 1,900,
:46:42. > :46:46.To be fair, London is a much bigger place.
:46:47. > :46:48.It is also a much more congested place.
:46:49. > :46:56.If you are going to look to target congestion,
:46:57. > :47:00.then London and the south-east is always into win over us, isn't it?
:47:01. > :47:02.Well, we have had a 45% cut in the bus grant.
:47:03. > :47:05.We have seen the problems in the film that people were having
:47:06. > :47:09.The fact that we have not got proper public transport within the region
:47:10. > :47:14.I have constituents in some villages who have to refuse jobs
:47:15. > :47:15.because they cannot get to work on time.
:47:16. > :47:20.Roads are part of the issue, but they are not the only
:47:21. > :47:22.Some significant investment of the roads.
:47:23. > :47:24.More to come, hopefully in terms of railways.
:47:25. > :47:26.There will be an announcement on that later.
:47:27. > :47:29.Given the financial situation in the state of the public finances,
:47:30. > :47:36.It is a period over the next three to four years
:47:37. > :47:39.where Government have got to get it's planning for the next decade
:47:40. > :47:49.Clearly the A69 should have some kind of priority.
:47:50. > :47:57.Think of terms of goods and exports in a post-Brexit world.
:47:58. > :48:03.How you connect the M6 to ports on the Tyne, on the Tees?
:48:04. > :48:05.Did you see any sign of that strategy?
:48:06. > :48:08.I think there is a strategy emerging any transport for the north
:48:09. > :48:11.is actually doing a lot of work which I understand is going to be
:48:12. > :48:17.published in the spring about how the north should connect
:48:18. > :48:19.connect by rail with HS2, but across the Pennines.
:48:20. > :48:22.Do not forget that the trans-Pennine route is going to be
:48:23. > :48:24.electrified by 2022, so it is not all bad news.
:48:25. > :48:27.But I think that film that you showed was very helpful
:48:28. > :48:29.because it showed some of the major capital projects that
:48:30. > :48:44.Matthew Vickers, we were told that the Chancellor was going
:48:45. > :48:46.to be investing boldly in our infrastructure.
:48:47. > :48:50.It will not be happening for five years at least.
:48:51. > :49:09.There is a lot of doom and gloom in the studio today.
:49:10. > :49:14.Things like issues on transport, they involve a lot of money
:49:15. > :49:17.and a lot of time and often a lot of political capital.
:49:18. > :49:20.I think actually this Government is will rolling up its sleeves
:49:21. > :49:24.When you look at the transport as a whole, transport for the north
:49:25. > :49:28.is doing a lot of work that I think would come into fruition and coming
:49:29. > :49:40.Another report into a bypass, another study into a road.
:49:41. > :49:42.Transport is like a very tired football.
:49:43. > :49:45.People say that governments just kick it down the road
:49:46. > :49:48.Actually, my friend councillor Heseltine has been
:49:49. > :49:51.It seemed like the dream, like it would never happen under
:49:52. > :49:56.It is happening now on roads which have pinch points.
:49:57. > :50:00.The one I drove past today on my way in, we were seeing an extra lane
:50:01. > :50:02.being on bits of the road network that hold things up
:50:03. > :50:07.Do not have any simply a tool with a view that the big
:50:08. > :50:09.announcement in the budget was this Milton Keynes to Oxford Expressway?
:50:10. > :50:12.There is actually a still inherent bias in the south?
:50:13. > :50:14.Let's talk about positives for a change.
:50:15. > :50:17.Railways in this part of the world of the franchise is gone out
:50:18. > :50:24.Better trains coming out of better upgraded stations with more
:50:25. > :50:35.If I was not in this studio, I was invited to go to the opening
:50:36. > :50:37.in Darlington of a new sign for the railway.
:50:38. > :50:41.So, we have such little investment in our region that members
:50:42. > :50:43.of Parliament are invited to the unveiling of signposts.
:50:44. > :50:46.What should happen to try convince everybody
:50:47. > :50:58.North-east politicians should have to show leadership.
:50:59. > :51:00.With the local enterprise areas have got to do that.
:51:01. > :51:06.Because they have got to lead to Government thinking
:51:07. > :51:09.on what the priorities are and what comes first and how
:51:10. > :51:13.We will come to them actually in a few minutes.
:51:14. > :51:16.First of all, the NHS is making news this week with an accident
:51:17. > :51:19.Three north-east hospitals have caused the bait
:51:20. > :51:26.Here are those stories and the rest of the week's news in 60 seconds.
:51:27. > :51:29.Teaching assistants took further strike action in their ongoing
:51:30. > :51:31.campaign against Durham council's plans to cut their wages
:51:32. > :51:46.Emergency care at three north-east hospitals,
:51:47. > :51:50.A E departments are being shut tonight at 8pm.
:51:51. > :51:53.The NHS Trust says few patients use them and staff are better deployed
:51:54. > :51:55.temporarily to the busy hospital in Cramlington.
:51:56. > :51:58.Durham MP has criticised plans which allow a private company
:51:59. > :52:02.to help decide if patients be referred to a specialist.
:52:03. > :52:08.She says the scheme has gone ahead without public consultation.
:52:09. > :52:10.A private company who has never seen the patient can overrule
:52:11. > :52:13.the decision of the patient's GP to refer them to a specialist
:52:14. > :52:16.Finally, Cumbria is to receive ?500,000 for repairs
:52:17. > :52:30.The county council's been awarded the cash from the rural payments
:52:31. > :52:32.agency to repair footpaths and other routes damaged by storm Desmond.
:52:33. > :52:35.I don't know why we didn't include the opening of that sign.
:52:36. > :52:38.All parties agree that economic growth in the UK has been too
:52:39. > :52:39.concentrated in London in the south-east.
:52:40. > :52:42.Philip Hammond this week promised to do some thing about it,
:52:43. > :52:45.allocating more than ?500 million from his local growth fund to spend
:52:46. > :52:47.on developing business and infrastructure in the north.
:52:48. > :52:50.It has been claimed that those parts of the region like Cumbria
:52:51. > :52:52.have failed to sign up to the Government's devolution deals
:52:53. > :52:56.are being punished when it comes to how much they'll actually get.
:52:57. > :53:04.These students at the University of Cumbria are learning
:53:05. > :53:09.skills much sought-after by the county's employers.
:53:10. > :53:12.And last year, the facilities here benefited from ?750,000
:53:13. > :53:16.The students are here to a point and then they leave the county go
:53:17. > :53:19.They do not always come back to the county.
:53:20. > :53:21.Part of this is offering students a progression opportunity
:53:22. > :53:30.Links to local employers, getting skills, getting the
:53:31. > :53:34.A single local growth fund provides the Government cash to invest
:53:35. > :53:35.in skills, infrastructure and local businesses.
:53:36. > :53:37.Local enterprise partnerships bid for the money to invest
:53:38. > :53:45.Up until now, LEPs in our region have been awarded ?595
:53:46. > :53:51.This week, the Chancellor announced a further ?556 million would go
:53:52. > :53:53.to LEPs across the whole of the north.
:53:54. > :53:59.But we still don't know yet how much each individual area will get.
:54:00. > :54:01.Here in Cumbria, the LEP bid for ?165 million,
:54:02. > :54:12.But there are now fears it will get even less than it was expecting.
:54:13. > :54:20.We were hoping possibly 30 to 40 million.
:54:21. > :54:23.It looks as if we were going to get somewhere like 10 to 14.
:54:24. > :54:26.Clearly, that is good to be a major limiting factor
:54:27. > :54:28.to what we are going to be able to do.
:54:29. > :54:31.This local MP says it is because Cumbria,
:54:32. > :54:33.like the north-east, would not accept an elected mayor
:54:34. > :54:40.It feels like a punishment beating, frankly.
:54:41. > :54:43.This offer has been linked to the fact that Cumbria did not
:54:44. > :54:46.want the devolution settlement which the Government put on the table.
:54:47. > :54:48.The reason we did not accept that devolution settlement
:54:49. > :54:50.is because it would do nothing for the local health service.
:54:51. > :54:53.This appears to be a pretty Draconian measure by Government
:54:54. > :54:56.to give us less than 10% of what we asked for and was already
:54:57. > :55:17.When you have a directly elected structure through these male role
:55:18. > :55:20.combined authorities, what you have that is you have a demonstration
:55:21. > :55:23.that everyone is working together to the same economic goals and that
:55:24. > :55:27.So, it makes sense to invest where people will come together
:55:28. > :55:30.Unfortunately, what happens without that is that
:55:31. > :55:32.you find different councils in different pages.
:55:33. > :55:34.What you see is people arguing amongst themselves.
:55:35. > :55:37.Backing Cumbria, there is some support for the idea of an elected
:55:38. > :55:42.I'm looking at bringing a top star hotel to the area.
:55:43. > :55:44.Mike Starkey fears his project to revamping Whitehaven will lose
:55:45. > :55:46.out on growth funding because Cumbria and council leaders
:55:47. > :55:53.I think people are going to put personal and party interests on one
:55:54. > :55:55.side and put the interest of the people of Cumbria before
:55:56. > :55:59.front of any decision that they make and I would call on all the Cumbrian
:56:00. > :56:01.leaders to have a complete rethink and negotiate around the table
:56:02. > :56:03.with the Government and find the best devolution
:56:04. > :56:07.Whether that is the solution, that will have to be
:56:08. > :56:10.Meanwhile, it is feared that the cash flow into Cumbria
:56:11. > :56:15.Matthew Vickers, this money should be allocated on the basis
:56:16. > :56:20.Where it can do most good, not as it appears to have been,
:56:21. > :56:22.on whether areas sign up to the Government's packed
:56:23. > :56:25.It is a punishment for some of these areas.
:56:26. > :56:34.I think these combined authorities will take on responsibility
:56:35. > :56:36.for strategic coordinated works that cross the borders
:56:37. > :56:39.And for taking on that work, they are taking the money
:56:40. > :56:43.If they can't rise to the standard required, if they can't work
:56:44. > :56:45.with their neighbours, then the Government will maintain
:56:46. > :56:55.If it is a good scheme, it is a good scheme.
:56:56. > :56:58.Whether it has got a mayor there or whether the council
:56:59. > :57:01.If local councillors cannot look at this strategically
:57:02. > :57:03.and deliver what needs to be delivered with this money,
:57:04. > :57:05.the money needs to stay with the Government
:57:06. > :57:07.because the Government will be responsible for
:57:08. > :57:10.Is this a fair call by the Government?
:57:11. > :57:12.Is actually chickens coming home to roost for the councillors?
:57:13. > :57:15.I think there has been a huge failure of political
:57:16. > :57:17.leadership by the Labour Party in the north-east.
:57:18. > :57:23.Equally, I think the Government has a reasonable case in saying that
:57:24. > :57:25.you have to have accountability through the ballot box
:57:26. > :57:29.Who actually is authorised to spend the money?
:57:30. > :57:31.And at Tees Valley, they have got their act together.
:57:32. > :57:50.Cornwall has a devolved deal, has no elected mayor
:57:51. > :57:54.But they, I understand, have been told they have
:57:55. > :57:57.This is entirely wrong because where you have a council
:57:58. > :58:07.and Cumbria has a county council, a District Council, actually,
:58:08. > :58:11.they should be able to take responsiblity
:58:12. > :58:16.If you are going to commit money like this, as these two said,
:58:17. > :58:19.if small areas are working together, they need to know that someone
:58:20. > :58:24.If that just wasn't possible in places like the north-east
:58:25. > :58:26.and Cumbria, where those deals just didn't take place.
:58:27. > :58:29.But the deal that was put on the table by the Government
:58:30. > :58:31.gave us half as much money as the south-west.
:58:32. > :58:33.I'm sorry, I think Jamie Reid is right.
:58:34. > :58:35.In the south-west, they vote Tory and in the north east
:58:36. > :58:41.The biggest problem that we have at the moment is that the Government
:58:42. > :58:44.is refusing to commit the European funds that we have
:58:45. > :58:51.But the council leaders walked into this didn't they?
:58:52. > :58:54.The only deal on the table, effectively.
:58:55. > :58:57.They allowed the Government to turn around and say OK,
:58:58. > :59:00.you didn't sign up, so we're not going to give you as much money.
:59:01. > :59:03.It is quite hard to beat and their around the whole region.
:59:04. > :59:06.It is difficult to see how you can have one person representing
:59:07. > :59:10.At least you would have got more money than is being offered now.
:59:11. > :59:12.Well, because the Government is making that choice.
:59:13. > :59:14.It does not mean that it is the right choice.
:59:15. > :59:17.My contention is that this is a wrong choice.
:59:18. > :59:28.What is the one item that the Chancellor could include
:59:29. > :59:31.next and that could aid your area in the north-east?
:59:32. > :59:35.I will give you a think moment to think.
:59:36. > :59:41.Productivity is lower than it should be and one of the reasons you get
:59:42. > :59:44.out of that is by investing more machinery and training and skills.
:59:45. > :59:46.We need to increase our rate of productivity.
:59:47. > :59:48.If you do that you get higher profits.
:59:49. > :59:52.You get higher tax revenues for the Government.
:59:53. > :59:56.I agree on skills, but the overriding thing is to get
:59:57. > :59:58.some clarity from the Government on what its negotiating
:59:59. > :00:04.They can't agree and that massive uncertainty is one of the reasons
:00:05. > :00:14.I think we should probably put more money into these devolved groupings
:00:15. > :00:16.where councils are going to work together to get good,
:00:17. > :00:18.local solutions to local problems that are beyond their
:00:19. > :00:24.And what will they be able to do in Teesside
:00:25. > :00:29.One of them will be fixing the bridge into Teesside Park
:00:30. > :00:32.that is a bit of a pet project of mine.
:00:33. > :00:35.There are a lot of local issues that people in the council know
:00:36. > :00:38.They've not got the capacity as an individual authority,
:00:39. > :00:41.but collectively they can do real, good things for Teesside.
:00:42. > :00:51.We're back same time, same place next Sunday.
:00:52. > :00:54.With a special report on how Teesside hopes to follow the example
:00:55. > :00:56.of regions in Germany to deliver that new model
:00:57. > :01:01.article 15 noticed this served. We have got to make sure London is
:01:02. > :01:07.open. Thank you. Andrew, back to you.
:01:08. > :01:09.Is Theresa May serious about curbing executive pay?
:01:10. > :01:12.Who will be crowned Nigel Farage's successor as Ukip leader?
:01:13. > :01:18.And can the Lib Dems pull off a by-election upset in Richmond?
:01:19. > :01:42.So,,, on pay talk about the executive of what executives get
:01:43. > :01:45.compared to the average worker in the company, giving shareholders
:01:46. > :01:49.real power to vote down pay rises if they don't like them, which is
:01:50. > :01:58.pretty much what Ed Miliband proposed in the general election in
:01:59. > :02:02.2015. Is she serious about this? She is very serious, and the Tory party
:02:03. > :02:05.probably does owe Ed Miliband an apology for trashing his ideas and
:02:06. > :02:10.2015 and then putting them all up for votes in November 20 16. She is
:02:11. > :02:12.very serious, and this all comes back to her desperate fear that
:02:13. > :02:19.unless capitalism reforms itself and becomes more acceptable to the just
:02:20. > :02:23.about managing or even 78% of the country who are not earning vast
:02:24. > :02:27.wealth at anywhere near the figures you see in the City, serious things
:02:28. > :02:32.will happen and the political sense of trust will implode. She has
:02:33. > :02:36.already been bartered down by her own Cabinet on this. She wanted to
:02:37. > :02:43.go further and make workers on the board mandatory. They have managed
:02:44. > :02:47.to stop that. What will her fallback position be on workers on the board
:02:48. > :02:54.if she is not able to get it into some claw? We would like to have
:02:55. > :02:59.workers on the board, but whatever they do on the board there will have
:03:00. > :03:03.no voting powers on the board. When you look at what was leaked out over
:03:04. > :03:07.the weekend, that we should know the ratio of the top to the average and
:03:08. > :03:13.that shareholders who own the company should determine, in the
:03:14. > :03:18.end, the highest-paid salaries, you kind of think, what could the
:03:19. > :03:24.possible objection be to any of that? Two things. One, I agree with
:03:25. > :03:30.Tom that she is deadly serious about this agenda and it comes under the
:03:31. > :03:33.banner, that sentence in the party conference speech about "It's time
:03:34. > :03:39.to focus on the good that government can do". She is by instinct more of
:03:40. > :03:42.an interventionist than Cameron and Osborne. But she is incredibly
:03:43. > :03:47.cautious, whether it is through the internal constraints of opposition
:03:48. > :03:54.within Cabinet, or her own small C Conservative caution in implementing
:03:55. > :03:56.this stuff. Part of the problem is the practicalities. George Osborne
:03:57. > :04:00.commission will Hutton to do a report which came out with similar
:04:01. > :04:05.proposals, which were never implemented. It is quite hard to
:04:06. > :04:10.enforce. It will antagonise business leaders when she's to woo them again
:04:11. > :04:15.in this Brexit furore. So there are problems with it. And judging by
:04:16. > :04:19.what has happened so far, my guess is that the aim will be genuinely
:04:20. > :04:22.bold and interesting, and the implementation incredibly cautious.
:04:23. > :04:29.Does it matter if she annoys some business leaders? Isn't that part of
:04:30. > :04:33.her brand? Will there be problems on the Tory backbenches with it? I
:04:34. > :04:36.think there will be and I think it does matter at this sensitive time
:04:37. > :04:41.for when we are positioning ourselves as a country and whether
:04:42. > :04:44.we are going to brand ourselves as a great city of business, implementing
:04:45. > :04:49.quite interventionist policies. Any suggestion that the government can
:04:50. > :04:52.control how much the top earners get, I think would be received in a
:04:53. > :04:56.hostile way. What would be wrong with the shareholders, who own the
:04:57. > :05:01.company, determining the pay of the higher hands, the executives?
:05:02. > :05:04.Morally, you can absolutely make that argument but to business
:05:05. > :05:09.leaders, they will not like it. Ultimately, this will not come down
:05:10. > :05:12.to more than a row of beans. There was a huge debate about whether
:05:13. > :05:19.there should be quotas of women on boards. In the end, that never
:05:20. > :05:24.happened. All we get is figures. But quotas of women, for which there is
:05:25. > :05:28.a case and a case against too, that was a government mandate. This is
:05:29. > :05:30.not, this is simply empowering shareholders who own the company to
:05:31. > :05:39.determine the pay of the people they hire. There is a strong moral
:05:40. > :05:45.argument for it. Strong economic argument. But the Tory backbenchers
:05:46. > :05:48.will not like this. The downside is that this is a world where companies
:05:49. > :05:52.are thinking about upping sticks to Europe. No, they say they are
:05:53. > :06:00.thinking of that. Not one has done it yet. Others have made massive
:06:01. > :06:05.investments in this country. But is it not an incentive for those making
:06:06. > :06:11.these threats to actually do it? In Europe, bankers' pay is now mandated
:06:12. > :06:16.by Brussels. It is a vivid way of showing you are addressing the issue
:06:17. > :06:25.of inequality. I think she will go with it, but let's move on to Ukip.
:06:26. > :06:29.I think we will get the result tomorrow. There are the top three
:06:30. > :06:35.candidates. Paul Nuttall, Suzanne Evans and on my right, John Reid
:06:36. > :06:41.Evans. One of them will be the next leader. Who is going to win? It is
:06:42. > :06:45.widely predicted to be Paul Nuttall and is probably the outcome that the
:06:46. > :06:48.Labour Party fears most. Paul Nuttall is a very effective
:06:49. > :06:54.communicator. He is not a household name, far from it, but people will
:06:55. > :06:59.begin to learn more about him and find that he is actually quite a
:07:00. > :07:05.strong leader. Can people Ukip together again after this shambolic
:07:06. > :07:11.period since the referendum? If anyone can, he can. And his brand of
:07:12. > :07:17.working collar, Northern Ukip is the thing that will work for them. Do
:07:18. > :07:21.you think he is the favourite? It would be amazing if he doesn't win.
:07:22. > :07:25.His greatest problem will be getting Nigel Farage off his back. He is
:07:26. > :07:33.going on a speaking tour of North America. A long speaking tour. Ukip
:07:34. > :07:37.won this EU referendum. They had the chance to hoover up these
:07:38. > :07:41.discontented Labour voters in the north, and all he has done is
:07:42. > :07:45.associated with Ukip with Farage. But Nigel Farage is fed up of Ukip
:07:46. > :07:50.and will be glad to be hands of it. The bigger problem is money. If it
:07:51. > :07:56.is Paul Nuttall, and we don't know the results yet, but he is the
:07:57. > :08:00.favourite, if it is him, I would suggest that that is the result
:08:01. > :08:04.Labour is frightened of most. To be honest, I think they are frightened
:08:05. > :08:09.of Ukip whatever the result. Possibly with good cause. The reason
:08:10. > :08:13.I qualify that is that what you call a shambles over the summer has been
:08:14. > :08:19.something that goes beyond Monty Python in its absurdity and madness.
:08:20. > :08:25.That calls into question whether it can function as a political party
:08:26. > :08:31.when you have what has gone on. The number of leaders itself has been an
:08:32. > :08:36.act of madness. In a context which should be fantastic for them. They
:08:37. > :08:40.have won a referendum. There is a debate about what form Brexit should
:08:41. > :08:45.take, it is a dream for them, and they have gone bonkers. If he can
:08:46. > :08:47.turn it around, I agree that he is a powerful media communicator, and
:08:48. > :08:53.then it is a threat to Labour. But he has got to show that first.
:08:54. > :08:58.Indeed. The by-election in Richmond in south-west London, called by Zac
:08:59. > :09:02.Goldsmith over Heathrow. Has it turned out to be a by-election about
:09:03. > :09:07.Heathrow, or has it turned into a by-election, which is what the Lib
:09:08. > :09:11.Dems wanted, about Brexit? We will know on Thursday. If the Lib Dems
:09:12. > :09:15.win, they will turn it into an EU referendum. It seems incredibly
:09:16. > :09:20.close now. The Lib Dems are swamping Richmond. They had 1000 activists
:09:21. > :09:24.there yesterday. That is getting on for 100th of the population of the
:09:25. > :09:29.place! If the Lib Dems don't manage to win on Thursday and don't manage
:09:30. > :09:32.to turn it into an EU referendum despite all their efforts, it will
:09:33. > :09:40.probably be a disaster for the party. What do you hear, Isabel? I
:09:41. > :09:45.hear that the Lib Dems have absolutely swamped the constituency,
:09:46. > :09:50.but this may backfire. I saw a bit of this myself, living in Witney,
:09:51. > :09:56.when the Lib Dems also swamped and people began to get fed up of their
:09:57. > :09:59.aggressive tactics. I understand that Zac Goldsmith is cautiously
:10:00. > :10:08.optimistic that he will pull this one off. Quick stab at the result? I
:10:09. > :10:13.don't know. But we are entering a period when by-elections are
:10:14. > :10:17.acquiring significant again. If the Lib Dems were to make a game, it
:10:18. > :10:23.would breathe life into that near moribund party like nothing else.
:10:24. > :10:28.Similarly, other by-elections in this shapeless political world we
:10:29. > :10:31.are in are going to become significant. We don't know if we are
:10:32. > :10:34.covering it live on Thursday night yet because we have to find at the
:10:35. > :10:40.time they are going to declare. Richmond are quite late in
:10:41. > :10:46.declaring, but if it is in the early hours, that is fine. If it is on
:10:47. > :10:49.breakfast television, they be not. I want to show you this. Michael Gove
:10:50. > :10:55.was on the Andrew Marr Show this morning. In the now notorious
:10:56. > :10:59.comment that I made, I was actually cut off in midstream, as politicians
:11:00. > :11:04.often. The point I made was not that all experts are that is nonsense.
:11:05. > :11:11.Expert engineers, doctors and physicists are not wrong. But there
:11:12. > :11:14.is a subclass of experts, particularly social scientists, who
:11:15. > :11:19.have to reflect on some of the mistakes they have made. And the
:11:20. > :11:23.recession, which was predicted that we would have if we voted to leave,
:11:24. > :11:29.has gone like a puff of smoke. So economic experts, he talks about.
:11:30. > :11:33.The Chancellor has based all of his forward predictions in this Autumn
:11:34. > :11:40.Statement on the economic expert forecasters. The Office for Budget
:11:41. > :11:45.Responsibility has said it is 50-50, which is the toss of a coin. But
:11:46. > :11:51.what was he supposed to do? You would ideally have to have a Budget
:11:52. > :11:59.that had several sets of scenarios, and that is impossible. Crystal ball
:12:00. > :12:02.territory. But you do wonder if governments are right to do so much
:12:03. > :12:07.of their fiscal projections on the basis of forecasts which turn out to
:12:08. > :12:11.be wrong. They have nothing else to go on. The Treasury forecast is to
:12:12. > :12:16.be wrong. No doubt the OBR forecast will prove not to be exact. As you
:12:17. > :12:20.say, they admitted that they are navigating through fog at the
:12:21. > :12:24.moment. But he also added that it was fog caused by Brexit. So Brexit,
:12:25. > :12:31.even if you accept that these forecasts might be wrong, is causing
:12:32. > :12:37.such a level of uncertainty. He put the figure at 60 billion. That could
:12:38. > :12:46.come to haunt him. He hasn't got a clue. He admitted it. He said,
:12:47. > :12:48.Parliament mandates me to come up with something, so I am going to
:12:49. > :12:55.give you a number. But I wouldn't trust it if I were you, he basically
:12:56. > :12:57.said. I agree with you. The man who borrowed 122 billion more off the
:12:58. > :13:01.back of a coin toss was Philip Hammond. It begs the question, what
:13:02. > :13:04.does that say about the confidence Philip Hammond has in his own
:13:05. > :13:12.government's renegotiation? Not a huge amount. I agree. Philip Hammond
:13:13. > :13:16.quoted the OBR figures. He basically said, this is uncertain and it looks
:13:17. > :13:23.bad, and on we go with it. It is a very interesting situation, he said.
:13:24. > :13:26.He was for Remain and he works in a department which regards it as a
:13:27. > :13:33.disaster, whatever everyone else thinks. I have just been told we are
:13:34. > :13:35.covering the by-election. We are part of the constitution.
:13:36. > :13:37.Jo Coburn will have more Daily Politics tomorrow
:13:38. > :13:41.And I'll be back here on BBC One next Sunday at 11.
:13:42. > :14:14.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:14:15. > :14:18.to signify the Africans who were here.
:14:19. > :14:46.The story of Henry VIII and his six wives