05/02/2017

:00:29. > :00:33.It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:34. > :00:37.Theresa May pledged to help people who are "just about managing",

:00:38. > :00:40.and this week her government will announce new measures to boost

:00:41. > :00:42.the number of affordable homes and improve conditions for renters.

:00:43. > :00:53.After a US court suspends Donald Trump's travel ban and rules

:00:54. > :00:57.it could be unconstitutional, one of the President's inner circle

:00:58. > :01:00.tells me there is no "chaos", and that Donald Trump's White House

:01:01. > :01:03.is making good on his campaign promises.

:01:04. > :01:06.As the Government gets into gear for two years

:01:07. > :01:09.of Brexit negotiations, we report on the haggling to come

:01:10. > :01:12.over the UK's Brexit bill for leaving the European Union -

:01:13. > :01:16.and the costs and savings once we've left.

:01:17. > :01:37.And with me, as always, a trio of top political

:01:38. > :01:39.journalists - Helen Lewis, Tom Newton Dunn

:01:40. > :01:43.They'll be tweeting throughout the programme,

:01:44. > :01:49.So, more anguish to come this week for the Labour party as the House

:01:50. > :01:52.of Commons continues to debate the bill which paves the way

:01:53. > :01:58.Last week, Labour split over the Article 50 bill,

:01:59. > :02:00.with a fifth of Labour MPs defying Jeremy Corbyn to vote against.

:02:01. > :02:06.Five shadow ministers resigned, and it's expected Mr Corbyn

:02:07. > :02:09.will have to sack more frontbenchers once the bill is voted

:02:10. > :02:13.Add to that the fact that the Labour Leader's close ally

:02:14. > :02:16.Diane Abbot failed to turn up for the initial vote -

:02:17. > :02:18.blaming illness - and things don't look too rosy

:02:19. > :02:21.The Shadow Foreign Secretary Emily Thornberry was asked

:02:22. > :02:25.about the situation earlier on the Andrew Marr show.

:02:26. > :02:29.The Labour Party is a national party and we represent the nation,

:02:30. > :02:33.and the nation is divided on this, and it is very difficult.

:02:34. > :02:38.Many MPs representing majority Remain constituencies have this very

:02:39. > :02:41.difficult balancing act between - do I represent my constituency,

:02:42. > :02:44.Labour, as a national party, have a clear view.

:02:45. > :02:53.We fought to stay in Europe, but the public have spoken,

:02:54. > :02:58.But the important thing now is not to give Theresa May a blank check,

:02:59. > :03:03.we have to make sure we get the right deal for the country.

:03:04. > :03:11.That was Emily Thornberry. Helen, is this like a form of Chinese water

:03:12. > :03:15.torture for the Labour Party? And for journalists, to! We are in a

:03:16. > :03:19.situation where no one really thinks it's working. A lot of authority has

:03:20. > :03:23.drained away from Jeremy Corbyn but no one can do anything about it.

:03:24. > :03:27.What we saw from the leadership contest is on the idea of a Blairite

:03:28. > :03:31.plot to get rid of him. You are essentially stuck in stasis. The

:03:32. > :03:37.only person that can remove Jeremy Corbyn is God or Jeremy Corbyn.

:03:38. > :03:41.Authority may have moved from Mr Corbyn but it's not going anywhere

:03:42. > :03:47.else, there's not an alternative centre of authority? Not quite, but

:03:48. > :03:52.Clive Lewis is name emerging, the Shadow Business Secretary. A lot of

:03:53. > :03:56.the Labour left, people like Paul Mason, really like him and would

:03:57. > :04:00.like to see him in Corbyn. I think that's why Jeremy Corbyn do

:04:01. > :04:05.something extraordinary next week and abstain from Article 50, the

:04:06. > :04:12.main bill itself, to keep his Shadow Cabinet together. That clip on

:04:13. > :04:16.Andrew Marr, point blank refusing to say if Labour will vote for Article

:04:17. > :04:22.50. The only way Jeremy Corbyn can hold this mess together now is to

:04:23. > :04:25.abstain, which would be catastrophic across Brexit constituencies in the

:04:26. > :04:32.North. The problem with abstention is everyone will say on the issue of

:04:33. > :04:37.our time, the official opposition hasn't got coherent or considered

:04:38. > :04:40.policy? I love the way Emily Thornberry said the country is

:04:41. > :04:43.divided and we represent the country, in other words we are

:04:44. > :04:46.divided at the party as well. The other thing that was a crucial

:04:47. > :04:50.moment this week is the debate over whether there should be a so-called

:04:51. > :04:55.meaningful vote by MPs on the deal that Theresa May gets. That is a

:04:56. > :05:01.point of real danger for Brexit supporters. It may well be there is

:05:02. > :05:05.a coalition of Labour and SNP and Remain MPs, Tory MPs, who vote for

:05:06. > :05:10.that so-called meaningful vote that could undermine Theresa May's

:05:11. > :05:14.negotiation. So Theresa May could have had troubles as well, not plain

:05:15. > :05:20.sailing for her? There is no point, apart from lonely Ken Clarke voting

:05:21. > :05:22.against Article 50, no point in Tory remainders rebelling. It would have

:05:23. > :05:27.been a token gesture with no support. But there might be

:05:28. > :05:31.meaningful amendments. One might be on the status of EU nationals... The

:05:32. > :05:40.government could lose that. There might be a majority for some of

:05:41. > :05:42.those amendments. The ins and outs of the Labour Party, it fascinates

:05:43. > :05:44.the Labour Party and journalists. I suspect the country has just moved

:05:45. > :05:49.on and doesn't care. You are probably quite right. To be honest I

:05:50. > :05:54.struggled to get Labour split stories in my paper any more, the

:05:55. > :06:00.bar is so high to make it news. Where it does matter is now not

:06:01. > :06:05.everyone will pay huge amounts to the -- of attention to the vote on

:06:06. > :06:10.Wednesday. But come the general election in 2020, maybe a little

:06:11. > :06:13.earlier, every Tory leaflet and every labour constituency will say

:06:14. > :06:16.this guy, this goal, they refuse to vote for Brexit, do you want them in

:06:17. > :06:21.power? That is going to be really hard for them. The story next week

:06:22. > :06:26.may be Tory splits rather than just Labour ones, we will see.

:06:27. > :06:29.Theresa May has made a big deal out of her commitment to help people

:06:30. > :06:32.on middle incomes who are "just about managing", and early this week

:06:33. > :06:35.we should get a good sense of what that means in practice -

:06:36. > :06:38.when plans to bring down the cost of housing and protect renters

:06:39. > :06:40.are published in the Government's new white paper.

:06:41. > :06:42.Theresa May has promised she'll kick off Brexit negotiations with the EU

:06:43. > :06:45.by the end of March, and after months of shadow-boxing

:06:46. > :06:49.Ellie Price reports on the battle to come over the UK's Brexit bill,

:06:50. > :06:51.and the likely costs and savings once we've left.

:06:52. > :06:54.It was the figure that defined the EU referendum campaign.

:06:55. > :07:00.It was also a figure that was fiercely disputed, but the promise -

:07:01. > :07:03.vote leave and Britain won't have to pay into the EU are any more.

:07:04. > :07:05.So, is that what's going to happen now?

:07:06. > :07:08.The trouble with buses is you tend to have to wait for them

:07:09. > :07:10.and when Theresa May triggers Article 50, the clock starts

:07:11. > :07:15.She needs something quicker, something more sporty.

:07:16. > :07:21.According to the most recent Treasury figures,

:07:22. > :07:24.Britain's gross contribution to the EU, after the rebate

:07:25. > :07:26.is taken into account, is about ?14 billion a year.

:07:27. > :07:32.There are some complicating factors that means it can go up

:07:33. > :07:35.or down year on year, but that's roughly how much the UK

:07:36. > :07:37.will no longer sending to Brussels post-Brexit.

:07:38. > :07:40.But, there are other payments that Britain will have to shell out for.

:07:41. > :07:43.First and foremost, the so-called divorce settlement.

:07:44. > :07:49.It is being said, and openly by Commissioner Barnier

:07:50. > :07:53.and others in the Commission, that the total financial liability

:07:54. > :07:56.as they see it might be in the order of 40-60 billion

:07:57. > :08:01.The BBC understands the figure EU negotiators are likely

:08:02. > :08:06.to settle on is far lower, around 34 billion euros,

:08:07. > :08:09.but what does the money they are going to argue

:08:10. > :08:15.Well, that's how much Britain owes for stuff in the EU budget that's

:08:16. > :08:17.already signed up for until 2020, one year after we are

:08:18. > :08:22.Historically, Britain pays 12% in contributions,

:08:23. > :08:25.so the cost to the UK is likely to be between ten

:08:26. > :08:33.Then they will look at the 200-250 billion euros of underfunded

:08:34. > :08:35.spending commitments, the so-called RAL.

:08:36. > :08:43.Britain could also be liable for around 5-7 billion euros

:08:44. > :08:47.for its share in the pensions bill for EU staff, that's again

:08:48. > :08:49.12% of an overall bill of 50-60 billion.

:08:50. > :08:52.Finally there's a share of our assets held by the EU.

:08:53. > :08:57.They include things like this building, the European Commission

:08:58. > :09:04.Britain could argue it deserves a share back of around 18 billion

:09:05. > :09:07.euros from a portfolio that's said to be worth 153 billion euros.

:09:08. > :09:10.So, lots for the two sides to discuss in two years of talks.

:09:11. > :09:13.They have a great opportunity with the Article 50 talks

:09:14. > :09:17.because actually they can hold us to ransom.

:09:18. > :09:20.They can say, "You figure out money, we will talk about your trade.

:09:21. > :09:23.But until you've figured out the money, we won't," so I think

:09:24. > :09:26.a lot of European states think they are in a very strong

:09:27. > :09:29.negotiating position at the moment and they intend to make

:09:30. > :09:34.The principle is clear, the days of Britain making vast

:09:35. > :09:39.contributions to the European Union every year will end.

:09:40. > :09:44.Theresa May has already indicated that she would want to sign back up

:09:45. > :09:49.to a number of EU agencies on a program-by-program basis.

:09:50. > :09:51.The Europol for example, that's the European crime

:09:52. > :09:56.agency, or Erasmus Plus, which wants student exchanges.

:09:57. > :10:00.If everything stays the same as it is now, it would cost the UK

:10:01. > :10:02.675 million euros a year, based on analysis by

:10:03. > :10:11.But there are likely to be agencies we don't choose to participate in.

:10:12. > :10:20.If we only opted back to those dealing with security,

:10:21. > :10:22.trade, universities and, say, climate change,

:10:23. > :10:25.it could come with a price tag of 370 million euros per year.

:10:26. > :10:27.Of course that's if our European neighbours allow us.

:10:28. > :10:29.I wonder if they're going to let me in!

:10:30. > :10:32.There will also be a cost to creating a new system to resolve

:10:33. > :10:35.trade disputes with other nations once we are no longer part

:10:36. > :10:40.Take the EFTA Court which rules on disputes

:10:41. > :10:42.between the EU and Norway, Iceland and Lichtenstein.

:10:43. > :10:48.That costs 4 million euros to run each year,

:10:49. > :10:50.though in the Brexit White Paper published this week,

:10:51. > :10:52.the Government said it will not be constrained by precedent

:10:53. > :10:58.Finally, would the EU get behind the idea of Britain making some

:10:59. > :11:04.contribution for some preferential access to its market?

:11:05. > :11:06.The sort of thing that Theresa May seems to be hinting

:11:07. > :11:09.at are sectoral arrangements, some kind of partial membership

:11:10. > :11:17.Switzerland, which has a far less wide-ranging deal than Norway,

:11:18. > :11:20.pays about 320 million a year for what it gets into the EU budget,

:11:21. > :11:22.but it's not exactly the Swiss deal that we're after.

:11:23. > :11:25.The EU institutions hate the Swiss deal because it is codified

:11:26. > :11:27.in a huge number of treaties that are messy, complicated

:11:28. > :11:30.and cumbersome, and they really don't want to replicate

:11:31. > :11:36.Theresa May has been at pains to insist she's in the driving seat

:11:37. > :11:38.when it comes to these negotiations, and that she's

:11:39. > :11:48.But with so much money up for discussion, it may not be such

:11:49. > :12:06.Sadly she didn't get to keep the car!

:12:07. > :12:08.And I've been joined to discuss the Brexit balance sheet

:12:09. > :12:11.by the director of the Centre for European Reform, Charles Grant,

:12:12. > :12:13.and by Henry Newman who runs the think tank Open Europe.

:12:14. > :12:21.Henry Newman, these figures that are being thrown about in Brussels at

:12:22. > :12:25.the moment, and exit bill of 40-60,000,000,000. What do you make

:12:26. > :12:28.of them? I think it is an opening gambit from the institutions and we

:12:29. > :12:34.should take them seriously. We listened to Mr Rogers, the former

:12:35. > :12:37.ambassador to Brussels in the House of Commons last week, speaking about

:12:38. > :12:42.the sort of positions the EU is likely to take in the negotiation. I

:12:43. > :12:46.personally think the Prime Minister should be more concerned about

:12:47. > :12:48.getting the right sort of trade arrangements, subsequent to our

:12:49. > :12:53.departure, than worrying about the exact detail of the divorce

:12:54. > :12:57.settlement and the Bill. They might not let them go on to trade until

:12:58. > :13:02.they resolve this matter. Where does the Brexit bill, the cost of exit,

:13:03. > :13:08.if there is to be one, in terms of a sum of money, where does that come

:13:09. > :13:12.in the negotiations, upfront or at the end? The European Commission has

:13:13. > :13:16.a firm line on this. You have to talk about the Brexit bill and the

:13:17. > :13:19.divorce settlement before you talk about the future relationship.

:13:20. > :13:23.Therefore they are saying if you don't sign up for 60 billion or

:13:24. > :13:26.thereabouts, we won't talk about the future. Other member states take a

:13:27. > :13:29.softer line than that and think you probably have to talk about the

:13:30. > :13:35.divorce settlement and Brexit bill as the same -- at the same time as

:13:36. > :13:40.the economic situation. If you can do both at the same time, the

:13:41. > :13:44.atmosphere may be better natured. You have spoken to people in

:13:45. > :13:51.Brussels and are part of a think tank, how Revista gives the figure

:13:52. > :13:55.or is it an opening gambit? Most member states and EU institutions

:13:56. > :13:57.believe they think it is the true figure but when the negotiations

:13:58. > :14:01.start adding the number will come down. As long as the British are

:14:02. > :14:07.prepared to sign up to the principle of we owe you a bit of money, as the

:14:08. > :14:12.cheque, then people will compromise. What is the ballpark? You had a

:14:13. > :14:16.figure of 34 billion, that is news to me, nobody knows because

:14:17. > :14:21.negotiations haven't started but I think something lower than 60. Even

:14:22. > :14:26.60 would be politically toxic for a British government? I think Theresa

:14:27. > :14:29.May is in a strong position, she has united the Conservative Party. You

:14:30. > :14:35.could expect coming into this year all the Conservative divisions would

:14:36. > :14:41.be laid bare by Gina Miller. But she is leading a united party. Labour

:14:42. > :14:46.Party are divided... Coogee get away with paying 30 billion? We should

:14:47. > :14:49.give her the benefit of the doubt going into these negotiations, let

:14:50. > :14:53.her keep her cards close to her chest. The speech he gave a few

:14:54. > :14:56.weeks ago at Lancaster House, our judgment was she laid out as much

:14:57. > :15:02.detail as we could have expected at that point. I don't think it's

:15:03. > :15:05.helpful for us now to say, we shouldn't be introducing further red

:15:06. > :15:10.line. I want you to be helpful and find things out. I would suggest if

:15:11. > :15:14.there is a bill, let's say it's 30 billion, let's make it half of what

:15:15. > :15:18.the current claims coming out of Brussels. And of course it won't

:15:19. > :15:22.have to be paid in one year, I assume it's not one cheque but

:15:23. > :15:26.spread over. But we will wait a long time for that 350 million a week or

:15:27. > :15:32.what ever it was that was meant to come from Brussels to spend on the

:15:33. > :15:37.NHS. That's not going to happen for the next five, six or seven years.

:15:38. > :15:43.Everyone has been clear there will be a phased exit programme. The

:15:44. > :15:47.question of whether something is political possible for her in terms

:15:48. > :15:50.of the divorce settlement will depend on what she gets from the

:15:51. > :15:55.European Union in those negotiations. If she ends up

:15:56. > :15:59.settling for a bill of about 30 billion which I think would be

:16:00. > :16:05.politically... No matter how popular she is, politically very difficult

:16:06. > :16:09.for her, it does kill any idea there is a Brexit dividend for Britain.

:16:10. > :16:13.Some of the senior officials in London and Brussels are worried this

:16:14. > :16:18.issue could crash the talks because it may be possible for Theresa May

:16:19. > :16:22.to accept a Brexit bill of 30 billion and if there is no deal and

:16:23. > :16:30.will leave EU without a settlement, there is massive legal uncertainty.

:16:31. > :16:32.What contract law applies? Can our planes take off from Heathrow?

:16:33. > :16:38.Nobody knows what legal rights there are for an EU citizen living here

:16:39. > :16:45.and vice versa. If there is no deal at the end of two years, it is quite

:16:46. > :16:49.bad for the European economy, therefore they think they have all

:16:50. > :16:52.the cards to play and they think if it is mishandled domestically in

:16:53. > :16:58.Britain than we have a crash. But there will be competing interests in

:16:59. > :17:02.Europe, the Baltic states, Eastern Europe, maybe quite similar of the

:17:03. > :17:07.Nordic states, that in turn different from the French, Germans

:17:08. > :17:12.or Italians. How will Europe come to a common view on these things? At

:17:13. > :17:20.the moment they are quite united backing a strong line, except for

:17:21. > :17:26.the polls and Hungarians who are the bad boys of Europe and the Irish who

:17:27. > :17:30.will do anything to keep us happy. We should remember their priority is

:17:31. > :17:35.not economics, they are not thinking how can they maximise trade with the

:17:36. > :17:39.UK, they are under threat. The combination of Trump and Brexit

:17:40. > :17:46.scares them. They want to keep the institutions strong. They also want

:17:47. > :17:51.to keep Britain. That is the one strong card we have, contributing to

:17:52. > :17:55.security. We know we won't be members of the single market, that

:17:56. > :18:00.was in the White Paper. The situation of the customs union is

:18:01. > :18:07.more complicated I would suggest. Does that have cost? If we can be a

:18:08. > :18:12.little bit pregnant in the customs union, does that come with a price

:18:13. > :18:17.ticket? We have got some clarity on the customs union, the Prime

:18:18. > :18:22.Minister said we would not be part of the... We would be able to do our

:18:23. > :18:26.own trade deals outside the EU customs union, and also not be part

:18:27. > :18:29.of the common external tariff. She said she is willing to look at other

:18:30. > :18:33.options and we don't know what that will be so as a think tank we are

:18:34. > :18:36.looking at this over the next few weeks and coming up with

:18:37. > :18:39.recommendations for the Government and looking at how existing

:18:40. > :18:44.boundaries between the EU customs union and other states work in

:18:45. > :18:48.practice. For example between Switzerland and the EU border,

:18:49. > :18:54.Norway and Switzerland, and the UK and Canada. We will want is a

:18:55. > :19:01.country the freedom to do our own free trade deals, that seems to be

:19:02. > :19:05.quite high up there, and to change our external tariffs to the rest of

:19:06. > :19:10.the world. If that's the case, we do seem to be wanting our cake and

:19:11. > :19:14.eating it in the customs union. Talking to some people in London, it

:19:15. > :19:20.is quite clear we are leaving the essentials of the customs union, the

:19:21. > :19:25.tariff, so even if we can minimise controls at the border by having

:19:26. > :19:27.mutual recognition agreements, so we recognise each other's standards,

:19:28. > :19:32.but there will still have to be checks for things like rules of

:19:33. > :19:36.origin and tariffs if tariffs apply, which is a problem for the Irish

:19:37. > :19:40.because nobody has worked out how you can avoid having some sort of

:19:41. > :19:43.customs control on the border between Northern Ireland and the

:19:44. > :19:47.South once we are out of the customs union. I think it's important we

:19:48. > :19:53.don't look at this too much as one side has to win and one side has to

:19:54. > :19:57.lose scenario. We can find ways. My Broadview is what we get out of the

:19:58. > :20:00.negotiation will depend on politics more than economic reality. Economic

:20:01. > :20:17.reality is strong, there's a good case for a trade deal on the

:20:18. > :20:20.solution on the customs deal, but Britain will need to come up with a

:20:21. > :20:22.positive case for our relationship and keep making that case. If it

:20:23. > :20:25.turns out the Government thinks the bill is too high, that we can't

:20:26. > :20:28.really get the free trade deal done in time and it's left hanging in the

:20:29. > :20:32.wind, what are the chances, how I as things stand now that we end up

:20:33. > :20:35.crashing out? I'd say there's a 30% chance that we don't get the free

:20:36. > :20:41.trade agreement at the end of it that Mrs May is aiming for. The very

:20:42. > :20:45.hard crash is you don't even do an Article 50 divorce settlement from

:20:46. > :20:50.you go straight to World Trade Organisation rules. The less hard

:20:51. > :20:53.crash is doing the divorce settlement and transitional

:20:54. > :20:59.arrangements would require European Court of Justice arrangements. We

:21:00. > :21:00.will leave it there. Thank you, both.

:21:01. > :21:03.Donald Trump's flagship policy of extreme vetting of immigrants

:21:04. > :21:05.and a temporary travel ban for citizens of seven mainly-muslim

:21:06. > :21:07.countries was stopped in its tracks this weekend.

:21:08. > :21:10.On Friday a judge ruled the ban should be lifted and that it

:21:11. > :21:15.That prompted President Trump to fire off a series of tweets

:21:16. > :21:18.criticising what he says was a terrible decision

:21:19. > :21:20.by a so-called judge, as he ordered the State Department

:21:21. > :21:28.Now the federal appeals court has rejected his request to reinstate

:21:29. > :21:39.the ban until it hears the case in full.

:21:40. > :21:44.Well yesterday I spoke to Sebastian Gorka, Deputy Assistant

:21:45. > :21:47.I asked him if the confusion over the travel ban

:21:48. > :21:49.was a sign that the President's two-week-old administration

:21:50. > :22:02.There is no chaos, you really shouldn't believe the spin, the

:22:03. > :22:08.facts speak for themselves. 109 people on Saturday were mildly

:22:09. > :22:14.inconvenienced by having their entry into the United States delayed out

:22:15. > :22:23.of 325,000. So let's not get carried away with the left-wing media bias

:22:24. > :22:27.and spin. Hold on, 60,000 - 90,000 people with visas, their visas are

:22:28. > :22:31.no longer valid. That's another issue. You need to listen to what

:22:32. > :22:37.I'm saying. The people who entered on the day of the executive order

:22:38. > :22:44.being implemented worth 109 people out of 325. Whether people won't

:22:45. > :22:53.travelling to America were affected is another matter, so there is no

:22:54. > :22:58.chaos to comment on. Following Iran's latest missile tests,

:22:59. > :23:04.National Security adviser Flint said the US was "Putting Iran on notice",

:23:05. > :23:07.what does that mean? It means we have a new president and we are not

:23:08. > :23:13.going to facilitate the rise of one of the most dangerous nations in the

:23:14. > :23:21.world. We are jettisoning this naive and dangerous policy of the Obama

:23:22. > :23:25.Administration to try and make the Shi'ite dictatorial democracy some

:23:26. > :23:29.kind of counter balance to extremist Sunni groups in the region and that

:23:30. > :23:33.they cannot continue to behave in the way they have behaved for the

:23:34. > :23:39.last 30 years. It is a very simple message. So are there any

:23:40. > :23:45.multilateral alliances that Mr Trump would like to strengthen?

:23:46. > :23:48.Absolutely. If we are looking at the region, if you listen to what

:23:49. > :23:53.President Trump has said and specifically to also the speeches of

:23:54. > :23:58.general Flint, his national security adviser, we are incredibly vested in

:23:59. > :24:05.seeing our Sunni allies in the region come together in a real

:24:06. > :24:11.coalition. The so-called vaunted 66 nation coalition that was created

:24:12. > :24:16.under the Obama administration... There was no coalition. But we want

:24:17. > :24:23.to help our Sunni allies, especially the Egyptians, the Jordanians, come

:24:24. > :24:30.together in a real partnership to take the fight to ISIS and groups

:24:31. > :24:35.like Al-Qaeda. But there is not a formal multilateral alliance with

:24:36. > :24:39.these countries. Which of the existing, formal multilateral

:24:40. > :24:43.alliances does Mr Trump wants to strengthen? If you are specifically

:24:44. > :24:48.talking about Nato, it is clear that we are committed to Nato but we wish

:24:49. > :24:51.to see a more equitable burden sharing among the nations that are

:24:52. > :24:56.simply not spending enough on their own defence so the gentleman 's

:24:57. > :25:00.agreement of 2% of GDP has to be stuck to, unlike the, I think it's

:25:01. > :25:05.only Six Nations that reach the standard today out of almost 30. So

:25:06. > :25:16.he does want to strengthen Nato then? Absolutely, he believes Nato

:25:17. > :25:22.is the most successful military alliances. You mustn't believe the

:25:23. > :25:26.spin and hype. EU leaders now see the Trump administration as a threat

:25:27. > :25:33.up there with Russia, China, terrorism. What's your response to

:25:34. > :25:38.that? I have to laugh. The idea that the nation that came to the

:25:39. > :25:45.salvation of Europe twice in the 20th century hummer in World War I

:25:46. > :25:56.and World War II, was central to the defeat of the totalitarian... It is

:25:57. > :26:00.not even worth commenting on. Would it matter to the Trump

:26:01. > :26:04.administration if the European Union broke up? The United States is very

:26:05. > :26:11.interested in the best relations possible with all the nations of the

:26:12. > :26:16.EU am a whether the European union wishes to stay together or not is up

:26:17. > :26:22.to the nations of the European Union. I understand that but I was

:26:23. > :26:27.wondering what the US view would be. Until Mr Trump, EU foreign policy

:26:28. > :26:31.was quite consistent in wanting to see the EU survive, prosper and even

:26:32. > :26:35.become more integrated. Now that doesn't seem to be the case, so

:26:36. > :26:40.would it matter to the Trump administration if the EU broke up? I

:26:41. > :26:43.will say yet again, it is in the interests of the United States to

:26:44. > :26:48.have the best relations possible with our European allies, and

:26:49. > :26:52.whether that is in the formation of the EU or if the EU by itself

:26:53. > :26:56.suffers some kind of internal issues, that's up to the European

:26:57. > :27:01.nations and not something we will comment on. Listening to that

:27:02. > :27:06.answer, it would seem as if this particular president's preference is

:27:07. > :27:11.to deal with individual nation states rather than multilateral

:27:12. > :27:18.institutions. Is that fair? I don't think so. There's never been an

:27:19. > :27:22.unequivocal statement by that effect by the statement. Does he share the

:27:23. > :27:27.opinion of Stephen Bannon that the 21st century should see a return to

:27:28. > :27:33.nation states rather than growing existing multilateral ways? I think

:27:34. > :27:36.it is fair to say that we have problems with political elites that

:27:37. > :27:42.don't take the interests of the populations they represent into

:27:43. > :27:47.account. That's why Brexit happened. I think that's why Mr Trump became

:27:48. > :27:52.President Trump. This is the connected phenomena. You are

:27:53. > :27:55.obsessing about institutions, it is not about institutions, it's about

:27:56. > :28:00.the health of democracy and whether political elites do what is in the

:28:01. > :28:03.interests of the people they represent. Given the

:28:04. > :28:06.unpredictability of the new president, you never really know

:28:07. > :28:11.what he's going to do next, would it be wise for the British Prime

:28:12. > :28:18.Minister to hitch her wagon to his star? This is really churlish

:28:19. > :28:21.questioning. Come on, you don't know what he's going to do next, listen

:28:22. > :28:27.to what he says because he does what he's going to say. I know this may

:28:28. > :28:31.be shocking to some reporters, but look at his campaign promises, and

:28:32. > :28:37.the fact that in the last 15 days we have executed every single one that

:28:38. > :28:42.we could in the time permissible so there is nothing unpredictable about

:28:43. > :28:48.Donald Trump as president. OK then, if we do know what he's going to do

:28:49. > :28:52.next, what is he going to do next? Continue to make good on his

:28:53. > :28:59.election promises, to make America great again, to make the economy are

:29:00. > :29:03.flourishing economy, and most important of all from your

:29:04. > :29:08.perspective in the UK, to be the best friend possible to our friends

:29:09. > :29:13.and the worst enemy to our enemies. It is an old Marine Corps phrase and

:29:14. > :29:20.we tend to live by it. Thank you for your time, we will leave it there.

:29:21. > :29:27.Doctor Gorka, making it clear this administration won't spend political

:29:28. > :29:29.capital on trying to keep the European Union together, a watershed

:29:30. > :29:31.change in American foreign policy. Theresa May has made a big deal out

:29:32. > :29:35.of her commitment to help people on middle incomes who are "just

:29:36. > :29:38.about managing", and early this week we should get a good sense

:29:39. > :29:41.of what that means in practice - when plans to bring down the cost

:29:42. > :29:44.of housing and protect renters are published in the Government's

:29:45. > :29:46.new white paper. The paper is expected to introduce

:29:47. > :29:48.new rules on building Communities Secretary Sajid Javid

:29:49. > :29:54.has previously said politicians should not stand in the way

:29:55. > :29:56.of development, provided all options Also rumoured are new measures

:29:57. > :30:01.to speed up building the 1 million new homes the Government promised

:30:02. > :30:03.to build by 2020, including imposing five-year quotas

:30:04. > :30:07.on reluctant councils. Reports suggest there will be

:30:08. > :30:09.relaxation of building height restrictions,

:30:10. > :30:11.allowing home owners and developers to build to the height

:30:12. > :30:14.of the tallest building on the block without needing to seek

:30:15. > :30:20.planning permission. Other elements trialled include

:30:21. > :30:24.new measures to stop developers sitting on parcels of land

:30:25. > :30:26.without building homes, land banking, and moving railway

:30:27. > :30:28.station car parks Underground, The Government today said it

:30:29. > :30:36.will amend planning rules so more homes can be built specifically

:30:37. > :30:39.to be rented out through longer term tenancies, to provide more stability

:30:40. > :30:41.for young families, alongside its proposed ban

:30:42. > :30:49.on letting agent fees. And the Housing Minister,

:30:50. > :30:58.Gavin Barwell, joins me now. Welcome to the programme. Home

:30:59. > :31:01.ownership is now beyond the reach of most young people. You are now

:31:02. > :31:06.emphasising affordable homes for rent. Why have you given up on the

:31:07. > :31:10.Tory dream of a property owning democracy? We haven't given up on

:31:11. > :31:14.that. The decline on home ownership in this country started in 2004. So

:31:15. > :31:18.far we have stopped that decline, we haven't reversed it but we

:31:19. > :31:23.absolutely want to make sure that people who want to own and can do

:31:24. > :31:26.so. The Prime Minister was very clear a country that works for

:31:27. > :31:29.everyone. That means we have to have say something to say to those who

:31:30. > :31:34.want to rent as well as on. Home ownership of young people is 35%,

:31:35. > :31:39.used to be 60%. Are you telling me during the lifetime of this

:31:40. > :31:44.government that is going to rise? We want to reverse the decline. We have

:31:45. > :31:48.stabilised it. The decline started in 2004 under Labour. They weren't

:31:49. > :31:52.bothered about it. We have taken action and that has stop the

:31:53. > :31:56.decline... What about the rise? We have to make sure people work hard

:31:57. > :32:00.the right thing have the chance to own their home on home. We have

:32:01. > :32:04.helped people through help to buy, shared ownership, that is part of

:32:05. > :32:08.it, but we have to have something to say to those who want to rent. You

:32:09. > :32:14.say you want more rented homes so why did you introduce a 3%

:32:15. > :32:18.additional stamp duty levied to pay those investing in build to rent

:32:19. > :32:22.properties? That was basically to try and stop a lot of the

:32:23. > :32:25.speculation in the buy to let market. The Bank of England raised

:32:26. > :32:30.concerns about that. When you see the white paper, you will see there

:32:31. > :32:37.is a package of measures for Bill to rent, trying to get institutional

:32:38. > :32:41.investment for that, different to people going and buying a home on

:32:42. > :32:45.the private market and renting out. You are trying to get institutional

:32:46. > :32:48.money to comment, just as this government and subsequent ones

:32:49. > :32:51.before said it would get pension fund money to invest in

:32:52. > :32:56.infrastructure and it never happened. Why should this happen? Is

:32:57. > :32:59.already starting to happen. If you go around the country you can see

:33:00. > :33:03.some of these builder rent scheme is happening. There are changes in the

:33:04. > :33:14.White Paper... How much money from institutions is going into bill to

:33:15. > :33:17.rent modular hundreds of millions. I was at the stock exchange the other

:33:18. > :33:19.day celebrating the launch of one of our bombs designed to get this money

:33:20. > :33:22.on. There are schemes being... There is huge potential to expand it. We

:33:23. > :33:25.need more homes and we are too dependent on a small number of large

:33:26. > :33:32.developers. -- to launch one of our bonds. You talk about affordable

:33:33. > :33:38.renting, what is affordable? Defined as something that is at least 20%

:33:39. > :33:42.below the market price. It will vary around the country. Let me put it

:33:43. > :33:47.another way. The average couple renting now have to spend 50% of

:33:48. > :33:50.their income on rent. Is that affordable? That is exactly what

:33:51. > :33:53.we're trying to do something about. Whether you're trying to buy or

:33:54. > :33:57.rent, housing in this country has become less and less affordable

:33:58. > :34:01.because the 30-40 years governments haven't built in times. This white

:34:02. > :34:05.Paper is trying to do something about that. You have been in power

:34:06. > :34:13.six, almost seven years. That's right. Why are ownership of new

:34:14. > :34:16.homes to 24 year low? It was a low figure because it's a new five-year

:34:17. > :34:21.programme. That is not a great excuse. It's not an excuse at all.

:34:22. > :34:24.The way these things work, you have a five-year programme and in the

:34:25. > :34:28.last year you have a record number of delivery and when you start a new

:34:29. > :34:32.programme, a lower level. If you look at the average over six years,

:34:33. > :34:37.this government has built more affordable housing than the previous

:34:38. > :34:44.one. Stiletto 24 year loss, that is an embarrassment. Yes. We have the

:34:45. > :34:46.figures, last year was 32,000, the year before 60 6000. You get this

:34:47. > :34:52.cliff edge effect. It is embarrassing and we want to stop it

:34:53. > :34:56.happening in the future. You want to give tenants more secure and longer

:34:57. > :35:02.leases which rent rises are predictable in advance. Ed Miliband

:35:03. > :35:06.promoted three-year tenancies in the 2015 general election campaign and

:35:07. > :35:12.George Osborne said it was totally economically illiterate. What's

:35:13. > :35:16.changed? You are merging control of the rents people in charge, which

:35:17. > :35:21.we're not imposing. We want longer term tenancies. Most people have

:35:22. > :35:25.six-month tenancies... Within that there would be a control on how much

:35:26. > :35:30.the rent could go up? Right? It would be set for the period of the

:35:31. > :35:34.tenancies. That's what I just said, that's what Ed Miliband proposed. Ed

:35:35. > :35:39.Miliband proposed regulating it for the whole sector. One of the reasons

:35:40. > :35:43.institutional investment is so attractive, if you had a spare home

:35:44. > :35:48.and you want to rent out, you might need it any year, so you give it a

:35:49. > :35:52.short tenancy. If you have a block, they are interested in a long-term

:35:53. > :35:59.return and give families more security. You have set a target,

:36:00. > :36:02.your government, to build in the life of this parliament 1 million

:36:03. > :36:10.new homes in England by 2020. You're not going to make that? I think we

:36:11. > :36:13.are. If you look at 2015-16 we had 190,000 additional homes of this

:36:14. > :36:21.country. Just below the level we need to achieve. Over five...

:36:22. > :36:27.2015-16. You were probably looking at the new homes built. Talking

:36:28. > :36:31.about completions in England. That is not the best measure, with

:36:32. > :36:36.respect. You said you will complete 1 million homes by 2020 so what is

:36:37. > :36:40.wrong with it? We use a national statistic which looks at new homes

:36:41. > :36:43.built and conversions and changes of use minus demolitions. The total

:36:44. > :36:49.change of the housing stock over that year. On that basis I have the

:36:50. > :36:54.figures here. I have the figures. You looking I just completed. 1

:36:55. > :36:59.million new homes, the average rate of those built in the last three

:37:00. > :37:03.quarters was 30 6000. You have 14 more quarters to get to the 1

:37:04. > :37:08.million. You have to raise that to 50 6000. I put it to you, you won't

:37:09. > :37:12.do it. You're not looking at the full picture of new housing in this

:37:13. > :37:16.country. You're looking at brand-new homes and not including conversions

:37:17. > :37:21.or changes of use are not taking off, which we should, demolitions.

:37:22. > :37:27.If you look at the National statistic net additions, in 2015-16,

:37:28. > :37:32.100 and 90,000 new homes. We are behind schedule. -- 190,000. I am

:37:33. > :37:36.confident with the measures in the White Paper we can achieve that. It

:37:37. > :37:40.is not just about the national total, we need to build these homes

:37:41. > :37:47.are the right places. Will the green belt remain sacrosanct after the

:37:48. > :37:50.white paper? Not proposing to change the existing protections that there

:37:51. > :37:55.for green belts. What planning policy says is councils can remove

:37:56. > :37:57.land from green belts but only in exceptional circumstances and should

:37:58. > :38:03.look at at all the circumstances before doing that. No change? No. We

:38:04. > :38:09.have a manifesto commitment. You still think you will get 1 million

:38:10. > :38:13.homes? The green belt is only 15%. This idea we can only fix our broken

:38:14. > :38:16.housing market by taking huge swathes of land out of the green

:38:17. > :38:19.belt is not true. We will leave it there, thank you for joining us,

:38:20. > :38:21.Gavin Barwell. It is coming up to 11.40.

:38:22. > :38:24.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:38:25. > :38:34.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead...

:38:35. > :38:44.A Labour and Conservative MP join forces to try

:38:45. > :38:46.and save their local hospital services - but they don't agree

:38:47. > :38:52.With me to discuss the NHS, the Copeland by-election and that

:38:53. > :38:55.Brexit vote in Parliament - are my guests - the Labour MP

:38:56. > :38:58.for Houghton and Sunderland South, Bridget Phillipson.

:38:59. > :39:02.And the Conservative MP for Hexham, Guy Opperman.

:39:03. > :39:09.But let's kick off with Donald Trump.

:39:10. > :39:11.There's been protests across the North East this week over

:39:12. > :39:15.And 150 MPs think the President should be barred from addressing

:39:16. > :39:22.Parliament when he arrives here on his state visit.

:39:23. > :39:25.Bridget Phillipson, I didn't see your name on that Commons motion

:39:26. > :39:27.asking for the president to be barred from Parliament.

:39:28. > :39:31.I find Donald Trump's politics pretty offensive and what he has

:39:32. > :39:34.done in the last few weeks are borrowed, but we don't always

:39:35. > :39:37.get to choose who we work with and the American people have

:39:38. > :39:39.chosen to elect Donald Trump as their president.

:39:40. > :39:43.So I am sure that should the visit go ahead, that British people

:39:44. > :39:46.will make their views known in their usual traditions.

:39:47. > :39:50.That is not a matter for MPs to decide.

:39:51. > :39:53.I can't say I will be dashing along to listen to him,

:39:54. > :39:57.but these are matters in the hands of the government and rest

:39:58. > :40:05.Guy Opperman, is President Trump a man deserving of that honour?

:40:06. > :40:11.We always invite every US president to come and make

:40:12. > :40:16.That is their decision whether they wish to do so.

:40:17. > :40:19.But my point is that it is democracy.

:40:20. > :40:21.This man was elected by the American people.

:40:22. > :40:24.We need to work with him and move forward with America who is one

:40:25. > :40:29.A state visit so soon is pretty unusual, I would say that.

:40:30. > :40:32.It's one thing for him to come and visit the UK,

:40:33. > :40:36.You don't need to like him, but you have to work with him.

:40:37. > :40:39.OK. Some agreement, perhaps.

:40:40. > :40:42.The battle lines between the parties over the health

:40:43. > :40:46.Labour says the NHS is in crisis due to underfunding.

:40:47. > :40:48.The Government say more money is being put into

:40:49. > :40:52.So it's unusual, to say the least, when a Labour and a Conservative MP

:40:53. > :40:59.join forces to try and save services which they say are under

:41:00. > :41:07.It is usually a vicious battleground between Labour

:41:08. > :41:09.and Conservatives but in our region, the NHS has brought two

:41:10. > :41:13.And it matters hugely to everybody who lives in Darlington and beyond,

:41:14. > :41:15.that we keep our hospital the way it is.

:41:16. > :41:18.We don't want to see a downgrade of our A E,

:41:19. > :41:22.we don't want to lose our consultant-led maternity unit.

:41:23. > :41:27.If we were to lose certain services at Darlington Hospital,

:41:28. > :41:29.some of my constituents would be faced with a 120-mile

:41:30. > :41:34.round trip to get to the next available hospital.

:41:35. > :41:38.North Tees and Stockton faces the same threat whilst James Cook

:41:39. > :41:40.in Middlesbrough would be enhanced, providing round-the-clock

:41:41. > :41:44.The Tees, County Durham and North Yorkshire NHS area

:41:45. > :41:49.is projected to be ?281 million over budget by 2021.

:41:50. > :41:54.The clinicians say the proposals are not about cutting costs.

:41:55. > :41:57.Even if patients travel past the local hospital to get

:41:58. > :41:59.to the specialist centre, where there are specialists

:42:00. > :42:03.from multiple sites, the outcomes are improved.

:42:04. > :42:06.There is a 30% reduction in mortality with that change

:42:07. > :42:12.If we change services and provide better outcomes,

:42:13. > :42:15.we can actually do it with less cost.

:42:16. > :42:18.This weekend, people from across the region marched

:42:19. > :42:24.Campaigners feel these plans are not being fully explained.

:42:25. > :42:27.I don't think they have been clear with people.

:42:28. > :42:30.It is absolutely disingenuous beyond belief to say that there

:42:31. > :42:41.Ask anyone who has been to them who is a member of the public.

:42:42. > :42:44.It is difficult because we have got to try and be open and honest

:42:45. > :42:48.and describe what the issues are, we have also got to listen

:42:49. > :42:51.to the public with real concerns that you have already described

:42:52. > :42:56.and use their feedback to influence and modify

:42:57. > :43:02.So the clinicians who drew up these hospital plans insist

:43:03. > :43:06.they are about improving care but a near ?300 million black hole

:43:07. > :43:16.We know it is underfunded, we know it has been mismanaged.

:43:17. > :43:18.We know the government wasted ?3 billion reorganising the NHS

:43:19. > :43:21.in the last Parliament that wasn't needed, hasn't worked,

:43:22. > :43:26.hasn't given any single benefit whatsoever to patients.

:43:27. > :43:28.We have seen that there are 10,000 more doctors,

:43:29. > :43:31.10,000 more nurses in the NHS than there were five years ago.

:43:32. > :43:34.So this is not just about money, this is about the design

:43:35. > :43:39.So even when Labour and Conservative MPs can find a common

:43:40. > :43:42.cause in the NHS locally, cross-party harmony on the issue

:43:43. > :43:53.Guy Opperman, members of the public we saw there looking at this as NHS

:43:54. > :43:57.Services they value being potentially lost.

:43:58. > :44:00.What is your view of the plans and what is driving them?

:44:01. > :44:04.I think you need to listen to the doctor who you had on your clip.

:44:05. > :44:07.The doctor was saying this is about a clinical need

:44:08. > :44:09.and is about making sure that the services work

:44:10. > :44:15.I owe my life repeatedly as a patient to the NHS.

:44:16. > :44:18.I have seen the difference it makes when you have local decision-making.

:44:19. > :44:22.You have local clinicians making local decisions.

:44:23. > :44:25.And the reason you have got the two MPs involved

:44:26. > :44:27.is that they are representing their local community.

:44:28. > :44:31.And that local community is being engaged in a process

:44:32. > :44:41.which sees the best possible delivery of local food services.

:44:42. > :44:46.But we have a Conservative MP opposing these plans because it is

:44:47. > :44:51.Because there are hundreds of millions of pounds trying to be

:44:52. > :44:53.saved in this process. You are getting it wrong.

:44:54. > :44:57.What he is doing is that he is quite rightly standing up for his local

:44:58. > :45:02.As are repeated MPs up and down the country.

:45:03. > :45:05.That is making the case for how it is...

:45:06. > :45:08.But if it is about making patients safer, what is he objecting to it?

:45:09. > :45:11.No, he's merely saying that that particular hospital is the one

:45:12. > :45:13.that he prefers to have those particular services rather

:45:14. > :45:14.than any other hospital. Right, OK.

:45:15. > :45:22.Bridget Philipson, Labour MPs want to make a with this.

:45:23. > :45:26.-- Labour MPs want to make hay with this.

:45:27. > :45:30.But it is not a cuts operation, it is about trying to look

:45:31. > :45:33.at what is best for making sure that patients are safe.

:45:34. > :45:35.There are savings to be made, that is natural, isn't it?

:45:36. > :45:38.I think there is always a balance to strike in making sure that

:45:39. > :45:40.you have services that are accessible to local people

:45:41. > :45:44.But let's be clear about why these decisions are being taken.

:45:45. > :45:47.It is because the NHS is facing an unprecedented funding crisis.

:45:48. > :45:50.The chief executive of the NHS has been very clear that the NHS is not

:45:51. > :45:53.getting the money it needs and the amount of funding per head

:45:54. > :45:56.of population will be spent on each person within the NHS

:45:57. > :46:00.Whatever the NHS say about giving the NHS the money it needs.

:46:01. > :46:02.They are not. It is set to fall.

:46:03. > :46:05.I will he bring you back in a second, Guy.

:46:06. > :46:07.The point is, if you listen to Labour, no service

:46:08. > :46:09.would ever be altered, no saving would ever be made,

:46:10. > :46:14.everything would be kept as it is. And that is just not realistic.

:46:15. > :46:17.Your party wasn't pledging to do that at the last election.

:46:18. > :46:19.I think it is right that MPs represent the views

:46:20. > :46:22.of their constituents and as we saw in that piece, local campaigners

:46:23. > :46:25.in Darlington and other parts of the North East such as Tyneside

:46:26. > :46:28.have got real concerns about this process and don't feel

:46:29. > :46:32.But I think we need to be really clear about where the responsibility

:46:33. > :46:35.It is it is with the Tory government in Westminster,

:46:36. > :46:40.I think that sums up the labour position.

:46:41. > :46:44.The whole point about this, this is a local decision, all right?

:46:45. > :46:47.The reason it it is because the NHS themselves and wrote

:46:48. > :46:49.the five-year forward view. They created this.

:46:50. > :46:52.The government has given them more money.

:46:53. > :46:54.Not as much as they said they wanted.

:46:55. > :46:57.Then they have been in a position that there was a local consultation.

:46:58. > :47:00.I just think that you need to compare the situation here.

:47:01. > :47:02.We are engaging with the best way to provide the best

:47:03. > :47:05.Would you accept, though, that at the moment,

:47:06. > :47:08.they are not taking the public, the patients with them on this?

:47:09. > :47:10.I think they are. Are they?

:47:11. > :47:12.The whole process, the discussion that we are having, the local MP

:47:13. > :47:15.Marches on the street, taking patients with them?

:47:16. > :47:19.But the bottom line is this, there should be vociferous

:47:20. > :47:21.and robust engagement with this process.

:47:22. > :47:27.That is what we are doing, that is why beyond your programme,

:47:28. > :47:33.-- that is why we are on your programme,

:47:34. > :47:37.Bridget Philipson, they have been events which the public

:47:38. > :47:39.have been invited to. Plans have been published.

:47:40. > :47:41.Councils are getting to look at them.

:47:42. > :47:43.Any individual changes, such as removing A E or maternity

:47:44. > :47:45.would have to be consulted on the game.

:47:46. > :47:48.I don't think people feel there has been.

:47:49. > :47:51.But as I say, this is part of a much bigger picture

:47:52. > :47:56.I think people will tell you they see it with their own eyes.

:47:57. > :47:59.They know they are waiting longer and longer in A E.

:48:00. > :48:02.They can't get appointments to see their GP.

:48:03. > :48:03.Isn't some of this about tackling that?

:48:04. > :48:07.Looking sensibly about what services you provide where and what is

:48:08. > :48:11.It's right that would take action on things like health

:48:12. > :48:14.inequality in the North East, that we make sure that patients get

:48:15. > :48:18.We all want to be sure that when our loved ones

:48:19. > :48:21.This is what this is about, isn't it?

:48:22. > :48:23.The whole point is, this is what we are trying to do.

:48:24. > :48:25...to get the best possible care they need.

:48:26. > :48:27.But this should not be about cost pressures,

:48:28. > :48:29.this shouldn't be just about saving money.

:48:30. > :48:31.The NHS, the Chief Executive and the Public Accounts Committee

:48:32. > :48:35.of which I'm a member, have been very clear the NHS is not

:48:36. > :48:38.getting the money it needs and funding per head is set to fall.

:48:39. > :48:41.The NHS budget is going up, even you accept that?

:48:42. > :48:44.I don't want to have an argument about figures.

:48:45. > :48:46.In real terms, from 2018, your Minister...

:48:47. > :48:49.I want to put one last question to Guy Opperman, which is,

:48:50. > :48:52.shouldn't you be braver about this and say, putting more and more

:48:53. > :48:54.money in isn't working, we need to do something different?

:48:55. > :48:57.No, I think what we are doing is we have put more money in.

:48:58. > :49:01.You then have to make a decision, local people, which is what this is,

:49:02. > :49:04.But is never going to be enough and you will have

:49:05. > :49:08.No, what you have is you have local doctors and local clinicians

:49:09. > :49:10.making those decisions. Why?

:49:11. > :49:12.Because the local people know best. All right.

:49:13. > :49:22.We will see what happens with those plans as they continue.

:49:23. > :49:24.It started as an embarrassment for the Government -

:49:25. > :49:27.forced by the courts to hold a vote on Brexit that it didn't

:49:28. > :49:31.But the week ended with Labour yet again in disarray after more

:49:32. > :49:34.than 50 of its MPs - including two in our region -

:49:35. > :49:36.defied a three-line whip imposed by Jeremy Corbyn.

:49:37. > :49:40.Its historic landmarks are testament to our past.

:49:41. > :49:42.But after parliament set the clock ticking on Brexit,

:49:43. > :49:44.public and politicians are looking to the future.

:49:45. > :49:47.For many of the region's MPs, the decision on Article

:49:48. > :49:51.Most of them campaigned to remain in the EU but found themselves

:49:52. > :49:55.But here in the university city of Durham, referendum opinion

:49:56. > :49:58.The local MP says the constituency chose to stay in,

:49:59. > :50:03.I really felt it was important for me as a member of Parliament not

:50:04. > :50:07.to ignore the national vote whilst at the same time trying to recognise

:50:08. > :50:13.And I felt it was very much being in between a rock and a hard

:50:14. > :50:20.place and I thought the best face to be was abstaining.

:50:21. > :50:23.Among local voters, differences about how MPs should respond.

:50:24. > :50:26.They asked for the referendum, they got the answer,

:50:27. > :50:30.At the end of the day, it was only a referendum

:50:31. > :50:32.and it was very close and there is the argument

:50:33. > :50:34.that it isn't really enough evidence for us to leave.

:50:35. > :50:37.While a majority of Labour's benches join Conservatives in backing

:50:38. > :50:40.Article 50 legislation, York's Rachel Maskell left

:50:41. > :50:48.While a Newcastle MP also defied a leader to oppose the bill.

:50:49. > :50:52.I voted against triggering Article 50 at this stage it

:50:53. > :50:55.until the government tell us what their plan is and what they

:50:56. > :50:58.are going to do to make sure our jobs and our industries

:50:59. > :51:03.Most of the region's Labour MPs did vote for the bill

:51:04. > :51:11.52% voted to leave the European Union, but they did not

:51:12. > :51:17.They did not vote to leave the customs union.

:51:18. > :51:20.There is a mandate for Britain's exit from the EU, but there is no

:51:21. > :51:23.mandate for the manner in which we leave.

:51:24. > :51:26.That is by the government must come to this house to inform Parliament

:51:27. > :51:28.of its progress throughout the negotiations and we must be

:51:29. > :51:34.For Teesside's James Wharton, extra reasons for satisfaction.

:51:35. > :51:37.The Conservative MP introduced a private members bill

:51:38. > :51:52.It is now very important that the government and the party,

:51:53. > :51:58.that everyone works together, not just to make this as excess

:51:59. > :52:00.but to respect the very clear message that the people

:52:01. > :52:04.But the fight is still being fought in parties as well as Parliament.

:52:05. > :52:06.This Tyneside Labour member and one-time Jeremy Corbyn

:52:07. > :52:09.supporter, helped organise an open letter to his leader, demanding

:52:10. > :52:15.Over 60% or 65% of the party actually voted to remain.

:52:16. > :52:16.The majority still want us to remain.

:52:17. > :52:19.So we need to become more clear and less confusing our message.

:52:20. > :52:22.The UK in the saddle and setting off in a new direction.

:52:23. > :52:31.But the battle over where that takes us is only just beginning.

:52:32. > :52:34.Bridget Philipson, you did vote for the bill, to trigger Article 50.

:52:35. > :52:37.But I suspect there are members of your local party who would have

:52:38. > :52:44.I think on issues like this, you have to weigh up

:52:45. > :52:46.what your constituents want, what you feel is in their best

:52:47. > :52:50.interest, and the national interest but also with your conscience.

:52:51. > :52:53.And I have been clear since the referendum that the people

:52:54. > :52:55.of Sunderland and the people of Britain voted to leave

:52:56. > :52:58.That was not a decision that I wanted.

:52:59. > :53:00.I campaigned very strongly for remain.

:53:01. > :53:10.Would you accept that your party is in a bit of a tangle,

:53:11. > :53:14.with losing Shadow Cabinet members, people forcing the resignation

:53:15. > :53:32.I do have real sympathy for colleagues, particularly those

:53:33. > :53:36.strongly for remain that they feel that they want

:53:37. > :53:39.And their constituents are telling them they don't want Britain

:53:40. > :53:41.to leave the European Union, they still don't.

:53:42. > :53:44.Was it a mistake to have the three line whip and force MPs

:53:45. > :53:49.No, I don't think it's a mistake to have a whip on such an important

:53:50. > :53:50.issue but I understand why some colleagues, especially

:53:51. > :53:53.those in areas that took a different view to my own,

:53:54. > :53:55.felt that they didn't want to support that.

:53:56. > :53:57.But this is just the start of a process.

:53:58. > :54:01.That is not to say we will accept everything the government put to us.

:54:02. > :54:03.There must be robust debate in the Commons about the form

:54:04. > :54:06.that this will take and we must do everything possible to protect

:54:07. > :54:08.jobs and to protect industry in the North East.

:54:09. > :54:10.Guy Opperman, if Labour MPs like Rachel Maskell

:54:11. > :54:12.and Catherine McKinnell honestly think that this will damage

:54:13. > :54:15.the prospect of their constituents, did they have every right to say,

:54:16. > :54:22.You don't get to choose which bit of democracy

:54:23. > :54:25.You either accept a democratic result, or you don't.

:54:26. > :54:28.We do that with general elections, we do that with parish

:54:29. > :54:30.council elections, we do it with referendums.

:54:31. > :54:33.I think it is naive to then say, well, I didn't like the result,

:54:34. > :54:40.it is entirely right that we look forward.

:54:41. > :54:43.The country has given us the direction, we must make the best

:54:44. > :54:50.of it and we will make a success of it.

:54:51. > :54:52.Once they pushed into this by the type of Brexit your

:54:53. > :54:55.government and Theresa May is pursuing, which is prioritising

:54:56. > :54:57.immigration over the economy and those MPs say, well

:54:58. > :54:59.if it is going to damage the prospects of my constituents,

:55:00. > :55:04.The country has decided, we are going to make

:55:05. > :55:08.They did not necessarily decide on the kind of Brexit

:55:09. > :55:10.that the government put out an White Paper.

:55:11. > :55:11.The White Paper has now been published.

:55:12. > :55:15.I think there is a huge about a detail in there

:55:16. > :55:18.and you have a position where we need to make a success

:55:19. > :55:21.of this but I certainly am going to forge a head with this.

:55:22. > :55:25.Is there anything to be concerned about in terms of jobs

:55:26. > :55:28.and the economy if the government in the White Paper says it

:55:29. > :55:30.will pursue the freest trade deal possible,

:55:31. > :55:32.something which already reassured as a few weeks ago, Nissan.

:55:33. > :55:35.I think there is still a lot to press the government on.

:55:36. > :55:37.We haven't had a great deal of detail.

:55:38. > :55:39.It has taken the government to come kicking and screaming

:55:40. > :55:41.to publish this White Paper, which doesn't necessarily

:55:42. > :55:43.tell us a great deal that we didn't know already.

:55:44. > :55:45.I think it is really important that we remain

:55:46. > :55:48.with the maximum possible access, tariff-free, to the single market,

:55:49. > :55:51.that we stay in the customs union and we protect workers' rights

:55:52. > :55:55.And I will resist anything that puts that at risk and put jobs at risk.

:55:56. > :55:58.Guy Opperman, briefly, Nissan is going to look at this.

:55:59. > :56:00.You have no reassurance for businesses that this

:56:01. > :56:02.is going to be great because you have a wish

:56:03. > :56:04.list without knowing whether you will achieve it.

:56:05. > :56:07.Well, clearly, the country has made a decision and we have got

:56:08. > :56:11.You can see that Nissan has very much endorsed the approach so far

:56:12. > :56:14.and I genuinely believe that we can sort this out.

:56:15. > :56:16.We will see what happens, because we will be

:56:17. > :56:20.Now, nominations have closed for the by-election in Copeland.

:56:21. > :56:23.And Sunderland's bid to be City of Culture was the talking

:56:24. > :56:26.Here's those stories - and the rest of the week's

:56:27. > :56:32.Labour's deputy leader, Tom Watson, was on the campaign

:56:33. > :56:36.He told nuclear workers the party was committed to the industry,

:56:37. > :56:38.despite Jeremy Corbyn's personal opposition to nuclear power.

:56:39. > :56:40.Say it loud, saying it clear, refugees are welcome here!

:56:41. > :56:42.Thousands of people gathered at Grey's Monument in Newcastle

:56:43. > :56:45.to protest against US President Donald Trump's

:56:46. > :56:50.A reception is being held at Westminster to promote

:56:51. > :56:53.Sunderland's bid to be City of Culture in 2021.

:56:54. > :56:58.MP Julie Elliott said it was all about harnessing the city's energy.

:56:59. > :57:00.It's a brilliant place and we have got lots to offer

:57:01. > :57:05.And also, getting people to meet people, to have

:57:06. > :57:10.The opportunities we have got, and the things we have already got.

:57:11. > :57:14.And finally, a 12-bed ward at Rothbury Community Hospital

:57:15. > :57:19.Northumberland's clinical commissioning group will now carry

:57:20. > :57:30.Bridget Phillipson, a couple of issues in there.

:57:31. > :57:33.I'm guessing some of your constituents might think there may

:57:34. > :57:35.be more important things for Sunderland to concentrate

:57:36. > :57:38.on than spending time of resources on what some might criticise

:57:39. > :57:43.I think you might get a few complaints about that

:57:44. > :57:47.but I would say it will be fantastic for Sunderland to get this.

:57:48. > :57:50.I think even going through the process of bidding really races

:57:51. > :57:54.There is a lot happening and this would bring further jobs

:57:55. > :57:57.and investment and really draw people into the city.

:57:58. > :58:00.And given that the North East has never had a successful bid,

:58:01. > :58:03.I think it is something that people across the Northeast can get behind.

:58:04. > :58:05.And even if you don't win, it is worth doing?

:58:06. > :58:08.Even though cities that are not successful, and I think Sunderland

:58:09. > :58:16.has a really strong case, even though that bid for it,

:58:17. > :58:31.-- even those cities that bid for it,

:58:32. > :58:36.We have got a lot happening and this will bring further investment.

:58:37. > :58:38.Guy Opperman, is Sunderland right to go for this?

:58:39. > :58:40.Of course they are. End of story.

:58:41. > :58:42.They should go for these things. You support it?

:58:43. > :58:45.Anything good for the North East, I support.

:58:46. > :58:47.This is something good for the North East,

:58:48. > :58:49.we should get behind it, including you, Richard!

:58:50. > :58:53.Now, Guy Opperman, you spent a lot of time in Copeland...

:58:54. > :58:55.I have, I have been a times to Copeland.

:58:56. > :59:03.All the bookies are making you favourites.

:59:04. > :59:05.Obviously, I never bet on these things, but should

:59:06. > :59:08.I think people should meet Trudy Harrison,

:59:09. > :59:10.our wonderful candidate, born in Seascale, lives in Bootle...

:59:11. > :59:13.We will not will get a chance to do that, so...

:59:14. > :59:18.Are you going to win? I think we have was a great chance.

:59:19. > :59:21.We have got a great candidate in Trudy and secondly,

:59:22. > :59:23.Jeremy Corbyn and his north London antinuclear

:59:24. > :59:27.I have to say that he has he has said this week that he does support

:59:28. > :59:31.Suddenly he has had a volte-face and changed his mind.

:59:32. > :59:39.You and I know he has repeatedly said he wants to decommission

:59:40. > :59:40.all nuclear power stations including Sellafield.

:59:41. > :59:47.I'm sure Jeremy Corbyn would not say he is anti-jobs!

:59:48. > :59:49.Well, he's certainly anti-jobs at Sellafield,

:59:50. > :59:54.Bridget Phillipson, win or lose, it's not great

:59:55. > :59:56.when you are opposition and you are having to fight tooth

:59:57. > :00:00.and nail to hold on to a seat that could be won by the government?

:00:01. > :00:03.And we all know what happened after that.

:00:04. > :00:06.By-elections are always tough and we are campaigning really hard.

:00:07. > :00:10.Whatever Guy says, the Labour Party's position is really clear.

:00:11. > :00:18.la candidate has made her views clear, we are behind the nuclear

:00:19. > :00:22.position. -- our candidate. I look forward to joining her. It's not

:00:23. > :00:30.good about being in a position to lose. By-elections are not always a

:00:31. > :00:35.good indicator. In 1995, will stay by-election and then in 19 seven, or

:00:36. > :00:41.we had a Labour government. You are accepting you are going to lose! I'm

:00:42. > :00:47.making the point that... If Labour loses Copeland and Stowe, were very

:00:48. > :00:52.questions for Jeremy Corbyn? The important thing in Copeland and

:00:53. > :00:57.instead give that we are making the case about jobs... If you lose, is

:00:58. > :01:01.Jeremy Corbyn safe? I will not get into a discussion about what might

:01:02. > :01:07.or might not happen? This is a referendum about Jeremy Corbyn. I'm

:01:08. > :01:12.joining this campaign and any speculation about what Orwell will

:01:13. > :01:14.not happen is pie in the sky. Thank you very much.

:01:15. > :01:16.Well, seven candidates are standing in the Copeland by-election

:01:17. > :01:20.There's a full list of them all on the BBC website.

:01:21. > :01:22.And next Sunday, we've a special programme focusing

:01:23. > :01:27.For now it's back to Andrew for the rest of the show.

:01:28. > :01:31.programme at another time an airport expansion, but thank you to both of

:01:32. > :01:37.you for being here. Back to you, Andrew.

:01:38. > :01:40.Will the Government's plan to boost house-building

:01:41. > :01:43.Could a handful of Conservative MPs cause problems for

:01:44. > :01:48.And what is President Trump going to do next?

:01:49. > :02:06.You have been following the genesis of this housing white paper. What do

:02:07. > :02:11.you make of it? I think it will be quite spectacular, pretty radical

:02:12. > :02:15.stuff. We heard bits about beating up on developers. I understand it

:02:16. > :02:20.will be a whack, walk, covering every single problem with housing

:02:21. > :02:24.supply and trying to solve it. Which means bad news if you are a huge fan

:02:25. > :02:27.of the green belt, because they will go round that the other way by

:02:28. > :02:32.forcing large quotas on councils are making it down to councils where

:02:33. > :02:35.they build. If you fill up your brown space in towns they will have

:02:36. > :02:39.to trigger the exceptional circumstances bit of the bill to

:02:40. > :02:43.beat on green belts. Beating up developers, opening up the market

:02:44. > :02:49.for renters across the board. And Theresa May, one of the most

:02:50. > :02:54.defining thing she could do on the domestic agenda. I am not as excited

:02:55. > :03:01.as Tom about this. I look back to 2004, do you remember the Kate

:03:02. > :03:05.Barker report? Successive governments, successive prime

:03:06. > :03:10.ministers have been promising to address the housing shortage. In

:03:11. > :03:14.2004 Kate Barker recommended hundreds of thousands new homes.

:03:15. > :03:19.Gordon Brown talked about 3 million new homes by 2020 in 2007. It never

:03:20. > :03:23.happens. The reason is at the end of the day this is local politics,

:03:24. > :03:26.local councillors need to keep their seats and they won't keep their

:03:27. > :03:30.seats if there are hugely controversial developments locally

:03:31. > :03:34.that they support. Yes, the government can and are proposing to

:03:35. > :03:38.overrule councils that don't back local developments, but they may

:03:39. > :03:43.find themselves completely inundated with those cases. I think that is

:03:44. > :03:47.the whole point of it, to take on those NIMBY often Tory councils and

:03:48. > :03:55.force them to build. I can't think of a better defining issue for

:03:56. > :04:02.Theresa May than sticking one in the eye of some quite well off half Tory

:04:03. > :04:06.countryside councils. The government gives councils a quota of homes they

:04:07. > :04:09.have to fill, if they don't have to fill that all run out overland to

:04:10. > :04:13.fill the quota, the government then comes in and tells them they have to

:04:14. > :04:18.built on the green belt? How is that going to work? At the moment the

:04:19. > :04:21.green belt is absolutely sacrosanct in British politics. They'll have to

:04:22. > :04:27.do some work on educating people on what green belts means. Potato

:04:28. > :04:33.farms, golf courses... At the moment the idea people have of the green

:04:34. > :04:38.belt being verdant fields needs to be dismantled. You are right. I

:04:39. > :04:42.agree with Tom, 11 million people in the private rental sector in the UK.

:04:43. > :04:45.In the last election more voted Labour than conservative. This is an

:04:46. > :04:50.area where Theresa May would look to expand her vote. The problem has

:04:51. > :04:54.always been, the same problem we have with pension policy and why

:04:55. > :04:57.pensioners have done better than working families in recent years.

:04:58. > :05:05.They are older and they vote more and anything to the detriment of

:05:06. > :05:10.older people. I wonder how they will get private money to come in on

:05:11. > :05:15.anything like this go they would need to have a huge expansion? There

:05:16. > :05:19.is a huge amount of speculation and one of the thing that locks up the

:05:20. > :05:23.system as you have people buying land, taking out a stake of land in

:05:24. > :05:27.the hope that one point it may at some point free up. At the end of

:05:28. > :05:31.the day, unless you have councils far more willing to quickly fast

:05:32. > :05:34.track these applications, which they won't for the reason I said before,

:05:35. > :05:42.it's a very long-term investment. Ed Miliband proposed three-year leases

:05:43. > :05:47.in which the rent could only go up by an agreed formula, probably the

:05:48. > :05:51.three years to give the young families a certain stability over

:05:52. > :05:55.that period. He had a use it or lose it rules for planning development,

:05:56. > :06:00.if you don't use it you lose the planning rights. Somebody else gets

:06:01. > :06:04.it. The Tories disparaged that at the time. This is at the centre of

:06:05. > :06:09.their policy now. This is probably item number four of

:06:10. > :06:12.Ed Miliband's policy book Theresa May has wholesale pinched in the

:06:13. > :06:17.last six months or so. Why not? I think if you look at the change in

:06:18. > :06:23.mood across housing and planning over the last 5-6 years, it used to

:06:24. > :06:26.be an issue very much of green belt versus London planners. Now you have

:06:27. > :06:28.grandparents living in houses in the countryside, knowing their

:06:29. > :06:35.grandchildren can't get on the housing ladder any longer. Maybe a

:06:36. > :06:38.bit more intervention in the market, tougher on renting conditions, maybe

:06:39. > :06:44.that is exactly what the country needs. Will they meet the 1 million

:06:45. > :06:46.target? It would be a defiance of every political thing that has

:06:47. > :06:52.happened in the last ten years. I think Tom is right, if there is only

:06:53. > :06:54.one difference between Theresa May and David Cameron it's the

:06:55. > :07:01.willingness of the state to intervene. When Ed Miliband said

:07:02. > :07:05.that he was seen as communism, but Theresa May can get away with it.

:07:06. > :07:12.How serious is this talk of a couple of dozen Tories who were very loyal

:07:13. > :07:18.over voting for the principle of Article 50 but may now be tempted to

:07:19. > :07:23.vote for some amendments to Article 50 legislation that they would find

:07:24. > :07:27.quite attractive? I think that threat has certainly been taken

:07:28. > :07:32.seriously by levers. I spoke to the campaign group Leaves Means Leave

:07:33. > :07:36.last night. The figure they mentioned was up to 20 remaining

:07:37. > :07:38.Tories. That sounds a lot to me but that is what they are concerned

:07:39. > :07:44.about and those Tories would come together with Labour and the SNP to

:07:45. > :07:48.vote for that amendment. Although that amendment sounds rather nice

:07:49. > :07:52.and democratic, actually in the eyes of many levers that is a wrecking

:07:53. > :07:57.amendment. Because what you are doing is giving Parliament a sort of

:07:58. > :08:01.veto over whatever deal Theresa May brings back. What they want is the

:08:02. > :08:05.vote to be before that deal is finalised. It isn't necessarily the

:08:06. > :08:11.case that if Parliament decided they didn't like that deal we would just

:08:12. > :08:14.go to WTO, we would fall out of the European Union. There are mixed

:08:15. > :08:19.views as to whether we might remain in and things could be extended. My

:08:20. > :08:25.understanding is the people making the amendments, they won any deal

:08:26. > :08:30.that is done to be brought to Parliament in time, so that if

:08:31. > :08:35.Parliament fancies it it's done, but if it does and it doesn't just mean

:08:36. > :08:40.go to WTO rules. There will be time to go back, renegotiate or think

:08:41. > :08:45.again? The question is where it puts Britain's negotiating hand. Nine of

:08:46. > :08:50.the options... Once we trigger Article 50 the two negotiation

:08:51. > :08:54.begins on the power switches to Europe. They can run out the clock

:08:55. > :08:57.and it will be worse for us than them. I don't think either option is

:08:58. > :09:02.particularly appealing. I think what seems like a rather Serena week for

:09:03. > :09:06.Article 50 this week isn't going to be reflective of what will happen

:09:07. > :09:09.next. The way the government's position is at the moment, if at the

:09:10. > :09:14.end the only choice Parliament has is to vote for the deal or crash out

:09:15. > :09:17.on WTO rules, then even the remainder is going to vote for the

:09:18. > :09:21.deal even if they don't like it, because they would regard crashing

:09:22. > :09:28.out as the worst of all possible results. Possibly. It will be a

:09:29. > :09:32.great game of bluff if Theresa May fights off any of these amendments

:09:33. > :09:35.on Wednesday and gets a straightforward deal or no Deal

:09:36. > :09:39.vote. I have a funny feeling this amendment, if it's chosen, we must

:09:40. > :09:44.remember because we don't know if they will choose this amendment, if

:09:45. > :09:48.it does go to a vote on Wednesday it will be very tight indeed. Remember,

:09:49. > :09:53.one final thing Theresa May can do if she gets Parliament voting

:09:54. > :09:57.against, as Isabel would have it, she could try to get a new

:09:58. > :10:03.parliament and go for a general election. And probably get a huge

:10:04. > :10:10.majority to do so. The Lords, it goes there after the February

:10:11. > :10:18.recess. They are very pro-Europe, but does their instinct for

:10:19. > :10:23.self-preservation override that? I think that is it. A Tory Lord said

:10:24. > :10:27.this morning I will vote to block it on a conscience measure, but you

:10:28. > :10:32.have the likes of Bill Cash, veteran Eurosceptics, suddenly converted to

:10:33. > :10:36.the Lords reform saying is an outrage. I doubt they will vote for

:10:37. > :10:44.their own demise, to hasten their own demise by blocking it. What did

:10:45. > :10:47.you make of Doctor Gorka smart fascinating. Cut from the same cloth

:10:48. > :10:50.as his boss. I thought it was extraordinary listening to him,

:10:51. > :10:54.saying everything is going dutifully to plan. But at the end of the day,

:10:55. > :10:58.what they are doing is what people in America voted for Trump to do. If

:10:59. > :11:03.you look at Lord Ashcroft's polling on why America voted for Trump, they

:11:04. > :11:09.went into this with their eyes wide open. One of the top fears among

:11:10. > :11:12.American voters, particularly Republican leading ones was

:11:13. > :11:15.America's immigration policy is or could be letting in terror arrests.

:11:16. > :11:20.As far as he is concerned, he is doing what he was elected to do.

:11:21. > :11:23.This whole year is turning into a wonderful year long lecture series

:11:24. > :11:26.on how democracy works at a fundamental level. I'm not sure

:11:27. > :11:32.anyone wanted it but it's what we've got. This same in the way we've been

:11:33. > :11:37.talking about direct democracy and Parliamentary democracy. The same is

:11:38. > :11:40.happening in America between executive and judicial branches. We

:11:41. > :11:44.are seeing the limits of presidential power. Regardless of

:11:45. > :11:47.the fact that people voted for Trump they voted for senators. The judge

:11:48. > :11:55.who blocks this was appointed by George W Bush. So-called Judge

:11:56. > :11:57.Eckert Mac so-called George W Bush! It's fascinating we're having all

:11:58. > :12:02.these conversations now that I never bought five years ago we would be

:12:03. > :12:07.having at such a fundamental level. Has the media yet worked out how to

:12:08. > :12:11.cover the Trump administration or has he got us behaving like headless

:12:12. > :12:16.chickens? He says something incendiary and we all run over to do

:12:17. > :12:20.that and when you pick it off it turns out not to be as incendiary as

:12:21. > :12:24.we thought? And then back doing something and we all rush over

:12:25. > :12:31.there. Is he making fools of us? Is exactly what he did in the election

:12:32. > :12:35.campaign. So many quick and fast outrageous comments frontrunner on a

:12:36. > :12:38.daily basis, no one single one of them had full news cycle time to be

:12:39. > :12:41.pored over and examined. I think there is a problem with this.

:12:42. > :12:46.Although he keeps the upper hand, keeps the agenda and keeps on the

:12:47. > :12:51.populist ground, the problem is it easy to campaign like that. If you

:12:52. > :12:54.are governing in a state of semi-hysteria, I wonder how long the

:12:55. > :12:56.American public will be comfortable with that. They don't really want

:12:57. > :13:02.their government to be swirling chaos all the time, as fascinating

:13:03. > :13:08.as it might be on TV. They will be exhausted by it, I already am. I

:13:09. > :13:10.have been interviewing White House administration official since 1976

:13:11. > :13:14.and that is the first time someone hasn't given me a straight answer on

:13:15. > :13:16.America supporting the EU. That is a different world.

:13:17. > :13:20.Jo Coburn will be on BBC Two tomorrow at midday with

:13:21. > :13:22.the Daily Politics - and I'll be back here

:13:23. > :14:01.Remember, if it's Sunday - it's the Sunday Politics.

:14:02. > :14:14.TV: He's not your father. WOMAN GASPS

:14:15. > :14:28.so why not pay your TV licence in weekly instalments, too?