:00:40. > :00:44.Commons Speaker John Bercow is accused of compromising his
:00:45. > :00:46.impartiality by revealing he voted Remain in last year's EU referendum.
:00:47. > :00:56.The EU Withdrawal Bill clears its first Parliamentary hurdle.
:00:57. > :00:58.But will the House of Lords be quite so accommodating?
:00:59. > :01:05.Labour's Leader in the Lords joins us live.
:01:06. > :01:09.And we report from Stoke-on-Trent ahead of a crucial by-election
:01:10. > :01:12.later this month, where Ukip is looking to give
:01:13. > :01:15.We're in Cumbria looking ahead to the are crucial,
:01:16. > :01:22.The house service and nuclear power, two issues that
:01:23. > :01:35.And with me a political panel who frequently like to compromise
:01:36. > :01:40.Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Janan Ganesh.
:01:41. > :01:47.I'll be trying to keep them in order during the course of the programme.
:01:48. > :01:49.So, Commons Speaker John Bercow has insisted his ability
:01:50. > :01:56.to act impartially is not damaged by reports that he voted to Remain
:01:57. > :02:02.The Sunday Telegraph reveals that Speaker Bercow revealed his views
:02:03. > :02:05.in front of an audience of students at Reading University
:02:06. > :02:22.This may not be popular with some people in this audience -
:02:23. > :02:26.I thought it was better to stay in the European Union than not,
:02:27. > :02:30.partly for economic reason, being part of a big trade bloc,
:02:31. > :02:34.and partly because I think we're in a world of power blocs,
:02:35. > :02:36.and I think for all the weaknesses and deficiencies
:02:37. > :02:39.of the European Union, it is better to be part of that big
:02:40. > :02:50.Speaker Bercow speaking at Reading University earlier this month. Does
:02:51. > :02:56.he not care is this I get that impression, he knows perfectly well,
:02:57. > :02:59.it states he has to be particularly -- Parliamentary neural. Whether
:03:00. > :03:04.there are going to be enough votes to force him out, the question, the
:03:05. > :03:09.last speaker wept out with the 20 vote against him. You yes to have
:03:10. > :03:15.the command of the support across the House. There is a Deputy
:03:16. > :03:25.Speaker, waiting, who would be superb. I think even the people who
:03:26. > :03:30.pretend to support Macis have had enough -- Speaker Bercow have had
:03:31. > :03:34.enough of his ways. The reason I ask whether he care, he didn't just tell
:03:35. > :03:38.the students that he voted to Remain, he then gave them a running
:03:39. > :03:45.commentary on all the issues that will be part of the Brexit
:03:46. > :03:47.negotiations, workers' rights, immigration, trade policy, everyone
:03:48. > :03:53.maternity leave got a hat tip from him. He would be a very well
:03:54. > :03:58.prepared Brexit minister if attendance needs a colleague --
:03:59. > :04:02.David Davis needs a colleague. I don't think this story makes his
:04:03. > :04:06.position untenable, what does is the wired pattern of behaviour of
:04:07. > :04:14.excessive candour on his political views, going back years, this is a
:04:15. > :04:20.guy who when the Queen visited Parliament described her as theical
:04:21. > :04:24.lied scope Queen. He had a running argument with David Cameron. We know
:04:25. > :04:35.his views on Brexit, we know his views on Donald Trump. . He has
:04:36. > :04:39.given interviews, none of the views are illegitimate but the candour
:04:40. > :04:44.which they are expressed with is scrupulous. Given Lyndsay Hoyle is a
:04:45. > :04:49.class accuse. He is the Deputy Speaker. And a fairly ready
:04:50. > :04:54.replacement, whether there is more of a movement to say, maybe not
:04:55. > :04:57.force Bercow out but acknowledge he has had a few years in the job and
:04:58. > :05:04.the question of successor ship comes into play. Has he concluded he is
:05:05. > :05:08.untouchable? What I can definitely say, is that he is determined to
:05:09. > :05:12.fight this one out, and not go of his own volition, so if he goes he
:05:13. > :05:18.will have to be forced out. He wants to stay. Which will be tough. It
:05:19. > :05:22.will be tough. Likely as things stand. I would say this, I speak to
:05:23. > :05:26.someone who likes the way he has brought the House of Commons to
:05:27. > :05:30.life, held ministers to account, forced them into explain thing,
:05:31. > :05:33.whenever there is a topical issue you know it will be in the House of
:05:34. > :05:40.Commons. He has changed that. He has. Time has been courageous, Ied a
:05:41. > :05:48.mire the way he has been a speaker. I would say this, during the
:05:49. > :05:50.referendum campaign, he asked me Nick Clegg, and Peter Hitchens to
:05:51. > :05:55.debate Brexit if his constituency. It was a packed out meeting. He
:05:56. > :06:01.chaired it. I said don't you want to join in? He didn't. He showed no
:06:02. > :06:07.desire to join in, he was impartial. He goes out to universities and kind
:06:08. > :06:14.of demyth GCSEs Parliament by speaking to them in a way, he
:06:15. > :06:21.doesn't gets credit for it and stays on after and drinks with them.
:06:22. > :06:25.Sometimes he, you know, it is clearly a mistake to have gone into
:06:26. > :06:29.his views retrospectively on that referendum campaign, I don't think
:06:30. > :06:32.that, did he try and stop Article 50 from being triggered in the House of
:06:33. > :06:37.Commons? That would be a scandal. Even that would be beyond him.
:06:38. > :06:43.Briefly, yes or no, could you imagine Betty Boothroyd behaving
:06:44. > :06:47.like that? Not at all. None of the recent speakers I could imagine
:06:48. > :06:50.doing that. It is good he is different.
:06:51. > :06:54.The bill that will allow the government to trigger Article 50
:06:55. > :06:56.and begin Brexit negotiations was voted through
:06:57. > :07:00.Many MPs were in a difficult position - unsure whether to vote
:07:01. > :07:01.with their conscience, their constituency,
:07:02. > :07:05.Europe, once such a divisive issue for the Conservatives,
:07:06. > :07:07.is now causing major divisions inside the Labour Party.
:07:08. > :07:12.So, let's have a look what happened in a bit more detail:
:07:13. > :07:14.Thanks to academic research carried out since the referendum,
:07:15. > :07:17.we now have estimates of how each individual constituency voted.
:07:18. > :07:23.It's thought that 410 constituencies voted Leave.
:07:24. > :07:30.On Wednesday night, the EU Notification of Withdrawal Bill
:07:31. > :07:32.was voted through by the House of Commons.
:07:33. > :07:41.The bill left the Labour Party divided.
:07:42. > :07:44.Jeremy Corbyn told his MPs to respect the result
:07:45. > :07:46.of the referendum and vote for the government's bill -
:07:47. > :07:49.But 52 Labour MPs defied Mr Corbyn's thee-line whip
:07:50. > :08:05.That's about a fifth of the Parliamentary Labour Party.
:08:06. > :08:08.Of those 52 Labour MPs who voted against the bill,
:08:09. > :08:10.the majority, 45 of them, represent seats that voted Remain.
:08:11. > :08:12.However, seven Labour MPs voted against the Article 50 Bill,
:08:13. > :08:14.even though their constituents voted Leave in the referendum.
:08:15. > :08:16.The Conservative Party were much more united.
:08:17. > :08:19.The vast majority of Tory MPs, 320 of them, voted for the bill.
:08:20. > :08:21.Just one Conservative MP, Ken Clarke, voted against it.
:08:22. > :08:23.His constituency, Rushcliffe in Nottinghamshire, voted Remain.
:08:24. > :08:26.The bill will now go to the House of Lords -
:08:27. > :08:40.peers will start debating it on Monday the 20th of February.
:08:41. > :08:42.Joining me now is Matthew Goodwin, politics professor at
:08:43. > :08:45.He's got a book out next month called
:08:46. > :08:47.Brexit: Why Britain Voted To Leave The European Union.
:08:48. > :08:55.Welcome to the programme. Has Brexit, how you voted in the
:08:56. > :08:59.referendum and your continuing attitudes toward it, is that now
:09:00. > :09:04.becoming the new dividing line in British politics? I think it
:09:05. > :09:08.certainly is contributing to a new dividing line, in western politics
:09:09. > :09:12.more generally, we know over the last ten years, that the old left
:09:13. > :09:16.and right division has been making way for a new division, between
:09:17. > :09:19.essentially social liberals and Conservative, and Brexit was a, an
:09:20. > :09:24.incident a moment that really reflected that new dividing line, so
:09:25. > :09:30.it wasn't just the case that Brexit has cut across Labour's base, it is
:09:31. > :09:35.that dividing line, that deeper division is cutting across social
:09:36. > :09:39.democracies more generally. Is there a possibility, no higher than that,
:09:40. > :09:44.that it will reShane our party politics? I think it is too early to
:09:45. > :09:48.know whether this is a fundamental long-term realignment. If we look at
:09:49. > :09:54.what is happening in local by-election, what is happening at
:09:55. > :10:01.by-elections, pictures a bit mixed but if you look at how some of the
:10:02. > :10:04.Labour vote is responding, I think that potentially reflects the
:10:05. > :10:08.possibility of a terminal decline for the Labour Party, it is going to
:10:09. > :10:12.be incredibly difficult for Labour to win these voters back, these are
:10:13. > :10:17.traditional working class, socially Conservative voters who are leaving
:10:18. > :10:21.the party, don't forget, since the 1997 general election. It is not
:10:22. > :10:26.just because of the referendum. If that was the case, Labour would
:10:27. > :10:29.become more a party of the Metropolitan areas, and less of a
:10:30. > :10:34.party outside of these area, is that what you are saying? What we are S
:10:35. > :10:40.seeing across the west can social democracy that retrenchment into the
:10:41. > :10:44.cosmopolitan, Metropolitan city area, university towns, you can
:10:45. > :10:47.seeing in many European states populist right parties filling the
:10:48. > :10:53.traditional socialist area, why are they doing that? Because they are
:10:54. > :10:57.offering two message, economic and cultural protectionism. Social
:10:58. > :11:01.Democrats are clinging to that economic protectionism but not
:11:02. > :11:05.saying much about migration and multiculturalism and that sort of
:11:06. > :11:08.stuff. Are there deeper forces at work than Jeremy Corbyn? He often
:11:09. > :11:12.gets the blame for what is happening to the Labour Party now, but if you
:11:13. > :11:20.look the way the Greek socialist party has been wiped out. The German
:11:21. > :11:23.Social Democrats are in trouble. The Italian socialist party has lost a
:11:24. > :11:28.referendum. The French socialist are coming close to being wiped out on
:11:29. > :11:33.April 23rd, Labour's problems, are part of a much wider problem of
:11:34. > :11:37.social democracy S Jeremy Corbyn is a surface problem, what I mean by
:11:38. > :11:40.that is you could replace him tosh with another leader, they would
:11:41. > :11:47.still have this fundamental tension within the electorate. They are
:11:48. > :11:50.trying to appeal to two differenter reconcilable groups of voters who
:11:51. > :11:55.think differently about the key issues of the day. It is very
:11:56. > :12:01.difficult for any centre left party now to assemble the kinds of
:12:02. > :12:05.coalitionses we saw in the '90s with Clinton and Blair and Schroeder.
:12:06. > :12:10.Those days are gone. Does that explain why it is now Labour, rather
:12:11. > :12:14.than the Conservatives, historically the party divided over the European
:12:15. > :12:20.Union, does all of that help to explain why its Labour that now
:12:21. > :12:26.seems, disunited over the EU? I think so, I think also that the
:12:27. > :12:30.issue of Brexit, and the EU, is so immatly wrapped up with that issue
:12:31. > :12:35.of immigration, if you look at who has been abandoned Labour since 2015
:12:36. > :12:40.or the late 90s, the one thing those voters share is a rejection of the
:12:41. > :12:45.so-called liberal consensus on EU membership and mass immigration. It
:12:46. > :12:49.is difficult for any Labour lead eer co-bin or Clive Lewis on Dan Jarvis,
:12:50. > :12:53.to bring those voters back unless they are going to move on that
:12:54. > :12:58.cultural terrain. If they are not, they may not go to Ukip, they might
:12:59. > :13:00.go to somewhere more difficult for Labour which is political apathy.
:13:01. > :13:03.Thank you for that. Attention now shifts to the House
:13:04. > :13:06.of Lords where peers will begin scrutinising the EU Withdrawal Bill
:13:07. > :13:08.in just over a week. Brexit Secretary David Davis urged
:13:09. > :13:11.the Lords "to do its patriotic duty" and resist the urge to tinker
:13:12. > :13:13.with the legislation. Former minister Oliver Letwin
:13:14. > :13:15.went one further - mooting the possibility
:13:16. > :13:17.of the abolition of the Lords if it sought to frustrate
:13:18. > :13:20.the bill in any way. Here he is posing the question
:13:21. > :13:28.in the Commons on Thursday. Would he find time, in government
:13:29. > :13:30.time for a debate, should the other place seek to delay beyond the end
:13:31. > :13:34.of March the passage of our accession to Article 50, for this
:13:35. > :13:37.House to discuss the possibility of either the abolition or full-scale
:13:38. > :13:46.reform of the other place? And Oliver Letwin joins
:13:47. > :13:59.me now from Dorset. Welcome back to the programme Mr Let
:14:00. > :14:03.win. Before we come on to the Lord's, can I get your thoughts on a
:14:04. > :14:08.matter that has been making the news this morning and John Bercow's
:14:09. > :14:12.remarks about being a remain voter an giving something of a running
:14:13. > :14:18.commentary on various Brexit issues, has he sqloefr stepped the mark as
:14:19. > :14:25.speaker? -- overstepped the mark. I think this is slightly a fuss about
:14:26. > :14:28.nothing. Every person who thinks about politics will have had some
:14:29. > :14:32.opinion about great matters like Brexit, and I really don't see any
:14:33. > :14:38.particular reason why his opinion shouldn't be known after the fact.
:14:39. > :14:42.I, I was there throughout the five days of the Brexit debate, and I
:14:43. > :14:48.have to say, I thought he was pretty scrupulously fair in the way he
:14:49. > :14:51.handled the House, so, I, I don't really share the view that there is
:14:52. > :14:55.some terrible thing that has been revealed this weekend. Let me come
:14:56. > :15:01.on to what we are here to talk about, which is the Lords. Why have
:15:02. > :15:06.you raised the threat of the abolition of the Lord for doing its
:15:07. > :15:14.job of scrutinising what is coming out the Commons? Well, you know,
:15:15. > :15:18.Andrew, this question of the job of the House of Lords and scrutiny, has
:15:19. > :15:23.to be looked at carefully. There are all sorts of bills that come out the
:15:24. > :15:28.House of Commons which are detailed things that relate to, finance, and
:15:29. > :15:32.expenditure, and the criminal law, and all that sort of thing, and all
:15:33. > :15:37.of that, I admire the work that the House of Lords does, as you say
:15:38. > :15:42.scrutinising and we shouldn't use that word loosely, it means looking
:15:43. > :15:48.carefully at the detail, line by line of complicated legislation,
:15:49. > :15:52.hundreds of Paps in some cases, and spotting, using the considerable
:15:53. > :15:56.expertise many, not all be many of the peers have, in any given field,
:15:57. > :16:00.to identify things where the Commons has got it wrong in the sense that
:16:01. > :16:04.the legislation wouldn't achieve what the Government of the day is
:16:05. > :16:08.seeking to make it achieve. That is a serious proper role for an Upper
:16:09. > :16:12.House and the House of Lords performs it pretty
:16:13. > :16:23.Now this is a very different case. This is a two clause bill. The first
:16:24. > :16:29.clause which is the operative clause says the Prime Minister should go
:16:30. > :16:35.ahead and sign... I understand all that. We haven't got that much time,
:16:36. > :16:42.this is becoming a monologue. There is nothing to scrutinise, Andrew.
:16:43. > :16:47.There were plenty of amendments put before the Commons, none of them got
:16:48. > :16:51.through, it is true. There are eight Labour amendments in the Lords, are
:16:52. > :16:56.you resigned to this bill coming back to the Commons with amendments?
:16:57. > :17:00.No, it should not come back with amendments. There were hundreds of
:17:01. > :17:03.amendments literally put down in the House of Commons, they were all
:17:04. > :17:08.drunk. They were all trying one way or another to derail the process.
:17:09. > :17:15.This is a binary issue, should Theresa May sign the withdrawal or
:17:16. > :17:20.not? What should the Commons do? The Commons has now voted in favour of
:17:21. > :17:29.it. Node do should tolerate and unelected chamber forcing the
:17:30. > :17:33.British people... The people voted in a referendum and the Commons
:17:34. > :17:38.voted. The matter is now signed and sealed and should not be derailed by
:17:39. > :17:43.the House of Lords. On Labour amendment wants confirmation that
:17:44. > :17:46.when it is done, the potential Brexit agreement will be put before
:17:47. > :17:51.parliament before any vote in the European Parliament, that has been
:17:52. > :17:56.an agreed principle, what is wrong with that amendments? The government
:17:57. > :18:00.has already agreed there will be a vote, but actually, what the
:18:01. > :18:05.amendments were seeking was to give the Commons a further vote on
:18:06. > :18:08.whether we actually leave or not. That is already decided. Neither the
:18:09. > :18:13.House of Lords nor anybody else has a right in my view, despite the fact
:18:14. > :18:19.I was a remain, to what the will of the British people. Nobody should
:18:20. > :18:23.think an unelected chamber should now try to change the course of
:18:24. > :18:28.British history by asserting amendments in a very effective on
:18:29. > :18:31.clause bill which says go ahead and trigger Article 50. Are you
:18:32. > :18:34.concerned that amendments by the Lords which would then have to go
:18:35. > :18:42.back to the Commons for consideration, are you concerned
:18:43. > :18:46.that could derail or delay the Prime Minister's timetable for Article 50?
:18:47. > :18:51.Yes, exactly. That would be the result of a prolonged bout of
:18:52. > :18:54.ping-pong between the two houses, or much worse, if the House of Lords
:18:55. > :19:00.failed to give way and the Parliament act had to be used. It
:19:01. > :19:03.would really be intolerable. It is not good for our country. Those of
:19:04. > :19:09.us who voted remain would prefer for that not to happen. The whole
:19:10. > :19:14.country -- it is important for the whole country that this happens in a
:19:15. > :19:18.rapid way and allowing the government free rein to negotiate,
:19:19. > :19:22.that is surely in all our advantages? Deed think any efforts
:19:23. > :19:27.to abolish the House of Lords, an issue you have raised, does that
:19:28. > :19:34.make it easier because your friend David Cameron stuffed the upper
:19:35. > :19:38.chamber with donors, lapdogs and lingerie designers? I was among
:19:39. > :19:43.those who advocated for many years wholesale reform of the House of
:19:44. > :19:47.Lords, to turn it into a serious elected second chamber. I think we
:19:48. > :19:52.should have an upper house which commands legitimacy. This is a
:19:53. > :19:57.second issue. Here we have not got such a House and it seems to be very
:19:58. > :20:01.clear that it should not seek to derail on delay the action which has
:20:02. > :20:06.been mandated by the referendum, agreed by the House of Commons, and
:20:07. > :20:11.what we want to see now is a smooth orderly effect for this bill, so it
:20:12. > :20:16.becomes law and Theresa May can go ahead and negotiate on our behalf.
:20:17. > :20:19.One more question on the process, if the Lords to amend the bill and it
:20:20. > :20:25.goes back to the Commons and the Commons sends these amendments back
:20:26. > :20:32.again, take them out, how long could this ping-pong between the two
:20:33. > :20:37.chambers go on in your experience? It is a very, very interesting and
:20:38. > :20:41.complicated question with the clerks of the two ends of the Palace of
:20:42. > :20:46.Westminster not always agreeing about this. But through certain
:20:47. > :20:50.machinations of slightly changing amendments as they go, in my
:20:51. > :20:53.experience this could carry on for an awful long time if clever people,
:20:54. > :20:56.and there are plenty of clever people in the House of Lords, want
:20:57. > :21:01.to do that and that is precisely why I think we should not tolerate it.
:21:02. > :21:03.Oliver Letwin, thank you for joining us from Dorset.
:21:04. > :21:08.Joining me now is Labour's Leader in the House of Lords, Angela Smith.
:21:09. > :21:14.The Commons passed this bill without any amendments... There were
:21:15. > :21:20.changes, the government did concede a couple of points. But the
:21:21. > :21:24.amendments did not go through. Does that put pressure on the Lords to do
:21:25. > :21:28.the same? I think the Lords always feels under pressure to do the right
:21:29. > :21:34.thing. When I heard Oliver Letwin, I did not know whether to laugh or
:21:35. > :21:40.cry. We will not frustrate, we will not wreck, we will not sabotage. We
:21:41. > :21:44.will do what David Davis said was our patriotic duty. We will
:21:45. > :21:48.scrutinise the bill. We have at amendments from the Labour Party. We
:21:49. > :21:51.will look at those. It depends on the government response if we vote
:21:52. > :21:55.on those. There could be amendments asking the Commons to look again.
:21:56. > :22:01.That is normally what we do. It is not the wrong thing to do. But if
:22:02. > :22:06.you do this and make amendments, it then goes back to the Commons. If
:22:07. > :22:10.the Commons rejects the Lords' amendments, what do you think will
:22:11. > :22:16.happen? I do not see any extended ping-pong at all. It is perfectly
:22:17. > :22:20.legitimate. We are not talking about the outcome of negotiations, we are
:22:21. > :22:23.talking about the process. The process of engaging with Parliament
:22:24. > :22:27.and reporting to Parliament. It would be totally responsible for
:22:28. > :22:30.Parliament to say, off you go, Theresa May, have two years of
:22:31. > :22:34.negotiation and come back and talk to us at the end. The has to be a
:22:35. > :22:39.process where the government can use the expertise of parliament to get
:22:40. > :22:45.this right. But if you do put in some amendments, it has to go back
:22:46. > :22:48.to the Commons, they may well say they don't want those amendments and
:22:49. > :22:53.it may go back to the Lords, could that at the very least delay the
:22:54. > :22:58.Prime Minister's Brexit timetable? I don't think so. She said the end of
:22:59. > :23:02.March. Time has been built in for all the normal processes. I think
:23:03. > :23:05.Oliver Letwin and others are getting a bit overexcited. This is the
:23:06. > :23:09.normal process. Unless the government get things right the
:23:10. > :23:14.first time every time, the has to be this kind of process. These are
:23:15. > :23:18.reasonable amendments. This is a Labour amendment we are talking
:23:19. > :23:31.about here, you want a vote in the UK Parliament before any
:23:32. > :23:35.vote in the European Parliament if and when the Brexit deal is done,
:23:36. > :23:38.the Commons and the Lords get to vote on it first. But the government
:23:39. > :23:42.I think have already agreed to that so what is the point? It needs to be
:23:43. > :23:44.on the face of the bill. It is over well if the government have agreed
:23:45. > :23:49.it. Lord dubs had an agreement about child and look what happened to
:23:50. > :23:54.that. Does not sound as if you would go to the wire on that? It is
:23:55. > :23:59.important it is not just about the vote at the end, you have the
:24:00. > :24:04.ongoing engagement. If it is going to be a bad deal, we need to know
:24:05. > :24:09.long before we get to that stage? Is it something you would hold out for?
:24:10. > :24:15.I don't know yet. It is about how the House of Lords votes, Labour do
:24:16. > :24:18.not have a majority, we never had a majority in the House of Lords when
:24:19. > :24:23.we were in government. It is wrong to suggest that we cannot debate
:24:24. > :24:30.these issues... I don't think anyone is suggesting that. They are. It is
:24:31. > :24:33.not unfair to ask the government to ask the House of Commons to look
:24:34. > :24:37.again to look at those issues if that is what the House of Lords
:24:38. > :24:42.decides. Bit of the House of Commons says we looked, we are sticking with
:24:43. > :24:46.what we voted for, we rejected every amendment by at least 30 votes on
:24:47. > :24:51.all occasions, the Lords then have to buckle, is that what you are
:24:52. > :24:55.saying? Some point I think it is clear the House of Commons have to
:24:56. > :24:58.have its say. I think it is inconceivable that having had a
:24:59. > :25:04.referendum, which was not overwhelming, but it was a clear
:25:05. > :25:06.result, the House of Lords has no intention of sabotaging that but
:25:07. > :25:11.there are things which are not good about the process that we think
:25:12. > :25:15.could be improved. We have not just have the result of the referendum
:25:16. > :25:21.which voted to leave, but we have had the will of the Commons that
:25:22. > :25:27.passed this legislation by a majority of 372. And I am not
:25:28. > :25:32.contesting that for a second! Could you cite a precedent for the upper
:25:33. > :25:36.house amending a bill which passed by 372 votes in the Commons? Quite
:25:37. > :25:39.other things will come to the House of Lords with big majorities from
:25:40. > :25:43.the Commons and quite often the amendments we get, with that then
:25:44. > :25:49.forward and the government sees it could do better. Though not
:25:50. > :25:52.necessarily saying the government has got things wrong, but they could
:25:53. > :25:57.do things better. That happens time and time again and it is not
:25:58. > :26:02.unusual. If you were seen to thwart the referendum result and the vote
:26:03. > :26:07.in the Commons, the elected chamber of parliament, is the threat of
:26:08. > :26:10.abolition hanging over you? I think that is really ridiculous and
:26:11. > :26:13.absolute nonsense. We are not tying to what the decision of the House of
:26:14. > :26:18.Commons, we are trying to do better. It is a bit rich of the government
:26:19. > :26:22.and Oliver Letwin to complain about getting things through in time when
:26:23. > :26:27.the House of Commons spent -- the government spent three months trying
:26:28. > :26:30.to debate this issue. There have been some strong questions put to
:26:31. > :26:34.the government from the House of Lords on all sides. I don't know if
:26:35. > :26:43.the amendments have been passed or not. I think we have a good case for
:26:44. > :26:50.the government to get debate the point. If a traditional MP like
:26:51. > :26:54.Oliver Letwin is calling for the abolition of the hereditary and
:26:55. > :26:57.appointed chamber, and the Labour person like yourself was trying to
:26:58. > :27:03.defend that, that would not be a sustainable position, I would
:27:04. > :27:06.suggest! We saw this with the Strathclyde report as well, this is
:27:07. > :27:09.a government like no other. It is the first Conservative government in
:27:10. > :27:14.history not to have an automatic majority. They do not like challenge
:27:15. > :27:19.or scrutiny. But you get my point, Labour cannot go to the wire in
:27:20. > :27:22.defending and an elected second chamber, can it? Actually, Labour
:27:23. > :27:26.can go to the wire in saying the government does not get it right
:27:27. > :27:33.every time. House of Lords is going to normal processes and people like
:27:34. > :27:36.Oliver Letwin are really getting a little bit over excited, and people
:27:37. > :27:43.who have been anonymously briefing. Who has been anonymously briefing? I
:27:44. > :27:46.don't know, they are anonymous! I understand people want to make
:27:47. > :27:50.amendments, that is the role of the House of Lords, but can I just for
:27:51. > :27:54.the avoidance of doubt, is it still your case that whatever amendments
:27:55. > :28:00.to make, whatever may go back and forward, it is not your intention to
:28:01. > :28:05.stop Article 50 being triggered by the end of March? I have been saying
:28:06. > :28:08.that, exactly that for months and months and months. It is
:28:09. > :28:11.inconceivable that an unelected House will thwart the will of the
:28:12. > :28:15.House of Commons and a referendum on this issue. But that does not mean
:28:16. > :28:20.we will be bullied by Oliver Letwin and others. But the triggering will
:28:21. > :28:26.happen by the end of March? I very much suspect so unless Theresa May
:28:27. > :28:29.has second thoughts, I suspect that will happen. Thank you.
:28:30. > :28:31.Now, just because it's parliamentary recess next week
:28:32. > :28:35.There are two by-elections round the corner -
:28:36. > :28:37.one in Copeland, and another in Stoke-on-Trent Central
:28:38. > :28:38.where the former Shadow Education Secretary,
:28:39. > :28:40.Tristram Hunt, vacated his seat to take up a role
:28:41. > :28:44.as Director of the Victoria Albert Museum in London.
:28:45. > :28:46.But Labour are facing a fight to hold onto the constituency
:28:47. > :28:52.Seconds away, Ukip's new leader has stepped into the ring
:28:53. > :28:54.as their candidate in a by-election bout to see
:28:55. > :29:02.At the last election Ukip came second to Labour here
:29:03. > :29:06.But now they are confident they can land a knockout blow,
:29:07. > :29:13.because this place is packed with people that voted to leave the EU.
:29:14. > :29:16.70% of people voted to leave the European Union.
:29:17. > :29:24.I'm the only candidate standing in this election
:29:25. > :29:27.who is a true Brexiteer, who has always campaigned to leave
:29:28. > :29:30.the EU and therefore I believe I would be the best person
:29:31. > :29:33.But he has had to fight off allegations
:29:34. > :29:35.he wasn't living in the constituency when he entered the contest.
:29:36. > :29:38.Explain to me what is going on with this issue about your house?
:29:39. > :29:41.Well, we took up the lease the day before nominations.
:29:42. > :29:43.Everything we've done is perfectly legal and within the law.
:29:44. > :29:49.The Labour Party are trying to get off the real issues in this election
:29:50. > :29:56.and focus on something which is banal nonsense.
:29:57. > :30:01.And there's been trouble as well for the Labour contender.
:30:02. > :30:03.He's been labelled a Remoaner after he sent a series
:30:04. > :30:06.of anti-Brexit tweets, filled with words
:30:07. > :30:17.I can't believe I'm about to ask this question in a nursery
:30:18. > :30:20.on a Sunday morning TV programme, but did you really tweet that
:30:21. > :30:24.I tweeted many things about Brexit, that's tweet is out there.
:30:25. > :30:27.It was done quite after the referendum result and it
:30:28. > :30:30.was my way of showing my frustration at the fact that months
:30:31. > :30:35.after the result we hadn't had anything from the government.
:30:36. > :30:37.Theresa May had failed to produce any plan,
:30:38. > :30:39.she had failed to give any meaningful statement
:30:40. > :30:41.about what Brexit meant other than bland statements
:30:42. > :30:44.about Brexit is Brexit, and it's a hard Brexit, or a soft Brexit.
:30:45. > :30:48.The context of it was it was out of frustration.
:30:49. > :30:51.So you didn't mean to insult the 70% of the people who live here
:30:52. > :30:55.I never mean to insult anybody and you know,
:30:56. > :30:57.I've made it quite clear, if I'm elected as the member
:30:58. > :31:00.of Parliament for Stoke-on-Trent Central, I will absolutely respect
:31:01. > :31:01.the wishes of the people of Stoke Central.
:31:02. > :31:05.I will make sure my vote in parliament is to trigger Article 50.
:31:06. > :31:08.While the Tories' man has done little bit of rebranding too.
:31:09. > :31:11.I voted Remain and I've been open about that, but my top priority
:31:12. > :31:14.is about the economy and to ensure we still have an
:31:15. > :31:18.Theresa May has set out clear proposal to ensure we develop
:31:19. > :31:28.a trade relationship with Europe and make that a success.
:31:29. > :31:31.It means the Lib Dems and the Greens are the ones battling Brexit.
:31:32. > :31:33.Well, when the Lib Dem candidate is actually here.
:31:34. > :31:39.The candidate is a consultant cardiologist.
:31:40. > :31:42.He is actually at work today doing very important heart surgery.
:31:43. > :31:44.He will be back tomorrow, back on the campaign trail working hard.
:31:45. > :31:48.30% of people voted to Remain and nobody else
:31:49. > :31:52.is representing them, so, you know, it is still a live issue.
:31:53. > :31:54.It is still something people care about.
:31:55. > :31:56.We are only at the start of the Article 50 process
:31:57. > :32:02.We are very a clear that we are standing up for those
:32:03. > :32:05.who want to remain in the single market, who want to protect jobs
:32:06. > :32:09.Labour have taken people for granted in this area for a great many years.
:32:10. > :32:12.Ukip, I'm afraid, all Ukip can offer to politics is division.
:32:13. > :32:15.I've covered a lot of by-elections where Ukip have come second.
:32:16. > :32:17.We'll find out if they really got Labour on the ropes this
:32:18. > :32:37.And here is a full list of all the candidates standing
:32:38. > :32:48.in the Stoke-on-Trent Central by-election.
:32:49. > :32:57.They do atract lots of candidates. You can get that on the BBC website
:32:58. > :33:05.as well. I was trying to think back, here we have the main opposition
:33:06. > :33:07.party defending two seats in by-elections in the midterm of a
:33:08. > :33:14.government. All the speculation is where the
:33:15. > :33:19.opposition party can hold on, that is unprecedented. I can't give of an
:33:20. > :33:25.equivalent. You wouldn't just expect them to win seats they have held
:33:26. > :33:31.traditionally, you would expect hem to make inroads into seats held by
:33:32. > :33:35.the other party, I wonder if they fail to hold on to just one of
:33:36. > :33:40.these, whether it accelerates the momentum and criticism of the
:33:41. > :33:44.leadership of the moment. I think they are interesting constituencies.
:33:45. > :33:50.Matthew good win was talking about the left win coalition over the
:33:51. > :33:57.years, almost being too broad for its own good, including places like
:33:58. > :34:02.Primrose Hill and Hackney. Big university towns in Manchester,
:34:03. > :34:11.Bristol. Diverse ethnically and included places like Stoke which are
:34:12. > :34:16.more Conservative. With a small c. Less economically well-off, more
:34:17. > :34:20.diverse, can the left hang on to both bits of country. Recent
:34:21. > :34:23.evidence suggests it cannot and the opportunity for Ukip is to pick up
:34:24. > :34:27.the second of those two types of community, the Stokes and the cope
:34:28. > :34:31.lands. That what makes the by-elections interest I would
:34:32. > :34:36.suggest. It is not just about Mr Corbyn's future about which we hear
:34:37. > :34:40.too much, it is about this traditional Labour coalition, can it
:34:41. > :34:45.still survive, particularly in places like Stoke? Europe clearly is
:34:46. > :34:52.a test. I think it's a myth by the way that Labour are only split now,
:34:53. > :34:56.over Europe and it has always been a Tory problem, last time I was on I
:34:57. > :35:03.mentioned it. That is why we had a referendum in 75. That is why they
:35:04. > :35:08.had a round then. But they were in chaos behind the scenes over what
:35:09. > :35:13.they thought about the euro, skillful leadership can paper over
:35:14. > :35:17.the cracks, and to address the wider issue of whether we are now in an
:35:18. > :35:22.era where left right issues have disappeared, and there is more of a
:35:23. > :35:29.regional divide, if you take Europe out of the equation which you can't,
:35:30. > :35:33.but if you were able to, issues about health, transport housing do
:35:34. > :35:38.split more left-right than a regional divide, so I think there is
:35:39. > :35:44.still fundamental left-right issues, but Europe isn't one of them and
:35:45. > :35:47.Europe has to be managed by a Labour leader skill fully and evidently
:35:48. > :35:52.that hasn't happened now. How would you see the by-elections in the
:35:53. > :35:57.current political context? Labour should be walking them, it should be
:35:58. > :35:59.a sign of the March of the Labour Party taking on the current
:36:00. > :36:03.Conservative Government. I don't think they raise any questions about
:36:04. > :36:06.Corbyn's leadership because the people who put him in don't think
:36:07. > :36:12.that winning elections matter, you have to remember this will be the
:36:13. > :36:16.mainstream media, it will be our fault why any of those Labour
:36:17. > :36:19.candidates don't win, the thing that is interesting is whether there is
:36:20. > :36:23.is a role for Ukip. The argument after the referendum was Ukip has
:36:24. > :36:29.done its job, it got the referendum, nothing to see here, I remember
:36:30. > :36:36.speaking to put a Nuttall before he was Ukip leader, on the day after
:36:37. > :36:40.the battle and he said this is Year Zero, where Ukip starts now, and
:36:41. > :36:43.this, and this is the interesting thing, does, do we see this one
:36:44. > :36:48.particular party having a role in the future? And I think it is all to
:36:49. > :36:52.play for, they could not not have stood in this seat. They have to win
:36:53. > :36:56.it to be an electoral force. The Labour candidate in Copeland has
:36:57. > :36:59.made the NHS the issue for her in this, that goes into the left-right,
:37:00. > :37:05.are we spending enough, are we not? That will be a test of what you were
:37:06. > :37:09.saying to see if traditional left-right issue, which at the
:37:10. > :37:12.moment would play Labour's way I would suggest, are big enough to
:37:13. > :37:16.overcome all the things you have been talking about and Matthew has
:37:17. > :37:20.been talking about. Maybe at this particular junction they are not,
:37:21. > :37:26.but I don't think any of those issues will go away, and that is why
:37:27. > :37:32.I question whether we are see the end of a historic left-right divide.
:37:33. > :37:35.At the moment with Europe so prominent, clearly these
:37:36. > :37:39.by-elections are unusual. And they will be a test of leadership for
:37:40. > :37:43.Theresa May in the coming months if not at the moment, as they have been
:37:44. > :37:48.in a way that he hasn't risen to, for the Labour leader.
:37:49. > :37:52.We will be leave on BBC One on the night, February 23rd off back of
:37:53. > :37:54.this week, we will bring you the result of both these crucial
:37:55. > :37:57.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:58. > :38:00.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:38:01. > :38:14.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
:38:15. > :38:16.Hello from Whitehaven on the West Cumbria Coast.
:38:17. > :38:17.The heart of the Copeland constituency.
:38:18. > :38:19.The parties are campaigning hard for an April
:38:20. > :38:22.by-election that will take place now in just 11 days' time.
:38:23. > :38:25.Labour's desperate to win here and hold onto
:38:26. > :38:32.the seat that has a narrow majority of just over 2500.
:38:33. > :38:34.Can they do it, or can the Conservatives in particular
:38:35. > :38:38.In a moment, I will be talking to all the
:38:39. > :38:41.First, Bob Cooper has been looking at some of
:38:42. > :38:43.the issues has been dominating the campaign.
:38:44. > :38:50.Copeland stretches down the west Cumbrian Coast from
:38:51. > :38:52.Whitehaven in the north to Millham in the south
:38:53. > :38:54.and takes in part of the
:38:55. > :39:00.I don't think it is going to be safe in
:39:01. > :39:04.We're going to lose all our services and I am really sad
:39:05. > :39:07.I think the main concern is to be the hospital services
:39:08. > :39:12.Our West Copeland Hospital is being depleted all the time and
:39:13. > :39:15.we know it is a plan to actually move everything to Carlisle.
:39:16. > :39:17.People are keen to protect jobs in the
:39:18. > :39:20.All my family have worked at Sellafield.
:39:21. > :39:22.They have all got grown-up children now who are
:39:23. > :39:26.If it wasn't for that place, they would probably be on the
:39:27. > :39:30.Any other issues that you might vote on?
:39:31. > :39:32.Just to get the town up and running again.
:39:33. > :39:46.This feeling neglect is a common theme in this
:39:47. > :39:48.long held Labour area which voted roughly 60/40 to leave the EU.
:39:49. > :39:50.The parties are fighting hard over this
:39:51. > :39:54.Let's tackle some of those issues now with the seven
:39:55. > :39:58.Let's deal with the nuclear industry first of all.
:39:59. > :40:08.You said you were in favour of a new killer power station
:40:09. > :40:12.in the area, but we know Jeremy Corbyn your leader had a long
:40:13. > :40:14.history of being pretty hostile to nuclear power.
:40:15. > :40:19.Labour was the party that brought civil nuclear
:40:20. > :40:21.to this area and we are a pro nuclear party.
:40:22. > :40:24.My husband works in the supply chain.
:40:25. > :40:26.I am 100% behind the nuclear industry.
:40:27. > :40:29.We need to make investment and to make it
:40:30. > :40:35.We're not getting that commitment from Government.
:40:36. > :40:37.We need investment to make that happen and
:40:38. > :40:40.we need an investment in our health service to support it going forward.
:40:41. > :40:43.Trudy Hammerson for the Conservatives.
:40:44. > :40:45.The Conservatives wanted to play on Jeremy Corbyn's
:40:46. > :40:47.past, but there is no story here, is there?
:40:48. > :40:49.The candidate is firmly behind new nuclear and actually
:40:50. > :40:53.Jeremy Corbyn says he does see it as part of the energy mix in his
:40:54. > :40:56.It is obviously convenient to change your mind during a
:40:57. > :41:01.I think it is absolutely essential that we have
:41:02. > :41:13.I used to work there, my husband works there.
:41:14. > :41:15.It is absolutely essential that we secure that investment.
:41:16. > :41:17.We'll come back to how that might happen.
:41:18. > :41:20.Let's go to the Green party, you are not a party that is
:41:21. > :41:22.particularly friendly to the nuclear energy.
:41:23. > :41:25.You do not want a nuclear power plant in this constituency.
:41:26. > :41:29.That is pretty lethal to your hopes, given
:41:30. > :41:33.That is pretty lethal to your hopes, given the thousands and thousands
:41:34. > :41:40.I think none of the jobs that we currently have in
:41:41. > :41:42.Sellafield are dependent on this new nuclear power plant.
:41:43. > :41:44.We're not opposed to what Sellafield are doing
:41:45. > :41:47.The problem we have is with the new power
:41:48. > :41:49.plant which is not going to
:41:50. > :41:50.provide as many jobs as everyone's saying.
:41:51. > :41:54.I don't think people here are pro-nuclear, I think they are
:41:55. > :42:00.They want other things to be provided for them.
:42:01. > :42:04.If nuclear was so good for this area, we wouldn't have
:42:05. > :42:07.had the VT we just had with people talking about Whitehaven
:42:08. > :42:11.struggling, towns feeling like ghost towns.
:42:12. > :42:14.Liberal Democrats, if you're looking for an MP to push to solve
:42:15. > :42:16.this little bit of uncertainty that is surrounding this power station,
:42:17. > :42:19.we go to the Conservatives, they have the Prime Minister pushing it.
:42:20. > :42:33.We have a very sound nuclear policy and I am
:42:34. > :42:37.an expert in nuclear and could be a great advocate for this industry.
:42:38. > :42:39.I know it inside out and I would strongly disagree
:42:40. > :42:41.with Jack that people are pro-jobs rather than
:42:42. > :42:44.People are pro-nuclear because it makes sense for our
:42:45. > :42:48.If we're going to deliver our carbon targets, we need
:42:49. > :42:53.I will let Jack have a say about that later.
:42:54. > :42:55.Ukip, there has been some discussion about the fact that
:42:56. > :42:58.leaving the EU could likely create more uncertainty about whether this
:42:59. > :43:01.new nuclear power station could happen.
:43:02. > :43:04.We're leaving Euratom, the part of the EU that cooperates in the
:43:05. > :43:07.I really don't think that would be an
:43:08. > :43:10.Actually going forward trade and business will
:43:11. > :43:12.carry on much better outside of the EU.
:43:13. > :43:14.I really don't think that it is an issue.
:43:15. > :43:16.Ukip fully support the development of the nuclear reactors
:43:17. > :43:21.on Moorside and we hope that those jobs will go
:43:22. > :43:24.We have that they are trained up enough there are enough
:43:25. > :43:28.Euratom underpins the nuclear industry.
:43:29. > :43:29.It is important for all our regulation.
:43:30. > :43:30.It underpins our international agreements.
:43:31. > :43:33.Just flip it away as though it is irrelevant and doesn't
:43:34. > :43:36.It doesn't mean that we can't cooperate.
:43:37. > :43:38.We can cooperate, but it can take an awful
:43:39. > :43:41.lot of work and investment, but we don't have the spare nuclear
:43:42. > :43:44.It will cause delays, it will cause miscommunications.
:43:45. > :43:46.That bring in up two independent candidates.
:43:47. > :43:49.Roy Atkinson, your big push is fun renewable energy, isn't it?
:43:50. > :43:55.You go to Whitehaven, if the scientists are right and sea
:43:56. > :43:58.levels rise by a metre you get a storm
:43:59. > :44:01.The centre of Whitehaven is washed away.
:44:02. > :44:05.Also I will put that you that we point out that
:44:06. > :44:08.A few wind turbines are not going to make a
:44:09. > :44:15.No, that's why we will have thousands of them.
:44:16. > :44:24.Michael Guest, trying to make this new nuclear power station happen,
:44:25. > :44:28.Doesn't it require an MP from a big party, not
:44:29. > :44:32.Big parties are pretty strapped with whips.
:44:33. > :44:34.And they were told what to do from down
:44:35. > :44:38.As an independent, I am not constricted in that way, at all.
:44:39. > :44:41.I am pro-nuclear, I see that the nuclear industry in this
:44:42. > :44:47.new build should go ahead and it should be
:44:48. > :44:49.spin offs for centres of excellence should come from those products.
:44:50. > :44:55.They should be basic materials that are
:44:56. > :45:04.Day one as MP, there does seem to be some
:45:05. > :45:07.Toshiba the company the company behind the nuclear power
:45:08. > :45:08.station seems to be reviewing pulling out.
:45:09. > :45:12.I already have a good working relationship with Tom
:45:13. > :45:14.Sampson, the chief executive of Newgen.
:45:15. > :45:17.I will be working with him, Newgen, the Government, to secure
:45:18. > :45:22.What can you do to make sure that the Government...
:45:23. > :45:24.Millions and millions of pounds that will
:45:25. > :45:27.There is no move to that of the Conservative Government,
:45:28. > :45:30.This is the only Government that is actually
:45:31. > :45:35.My background is in securing services and also working
:45:36. > :45:39.I will be taking those lessons to do that.
:45:40. > :45:41.You haven't built anything nuclear in 25
:45:42. > :45:44.years, so how can you say that you are an advocate for it?
:45:45. > :45:49.I am an advocate because I am extremely proud of the world
:45:50. > :45:53.leading skills we have got in this area and I don't think we have been
:45:54. > :45:59.We haven't build any more nuclear reactors
:46:00. > :46:01.We haven't build any more nuclear reactors in 25 years,
:46:02. > :46:05.Are they really serious about nuclear in the energy
:46:06. > :46:07.Firstly, the Conservative Party hasn't been in
:46:08. > :46:10.What is important is that we have committed
:46:11. > :46:16.and we are going to invest in new nuclear.
:46:17. > :46:19.commitment is there and that they are building new nuclear power
:46:20. > :46:23.Labour have chucked it into the long grass under Tony
:46:24. > :46:26.With respect, the Conservatives are not building new
:46:27. > :46:29.They are trying to get private sector to build new nuclear.
:46:30. > :46:32.They are so committed to nuclear that they are
:46:33. > :46:34.stripping away pensions from Sellafield workers.
:46:35. > :46:36.That is how much they respect the nuclear industry
:46:37. > :46:38.and they are not investing it in the infrastructure
:46:39. > :46:55.The health service underpins those jobs.
:46:56. > :46:57.There are many ways to invest the money.
:46:58. > :46:59.They are not investing that money at all.
:47:00. > :47:01.They are not getting any investment to
:47:02. > :47:05.They are expecting the private sector to upgrade railway lines that
:47:06. > :47:13.That is their investment and they're stripping out
:47:14. > :47:15.the other assets made to make it happen.
:47:16. > :47:18.I will allow you to come back on that.
:47:19. > :47:20.We're going to deal with transport and infrastructure
:47:21. > :47:22.Let's deal with the National Health Service.
:47:23. > :47:24.Key services, maternity services, accident and emergency services
:47:25. > :47:33.Involving travel from here to Carlisle.
:47:34. > :47:37.If you look at your campaign literature, you barely
:47:38. > :47:40.I am absolutely not ducking this.
:47:41. > :47:43.My four daughters were born in that hospital.
:47:44. > :47:51.I absolutely oppose the success regime and I oppose the...
:47:52. > :47:53.Where has your opposition been on that?
:47:54. > :47:58.What I have been doing is speaking with the
:47:59. > :48:00.minister, the health Minister Philip Dunn
:48:01. > :48:01.and what we have agreed in
:48:02. > :48:04.writing is that there will be a professionally, Government backed
:48:05. > :48:08.Let me be clear that the issue here is not money.
:48:09. > :48:10.Save our services was formed ten years ago during a Labour
:48:11. > :48:14.The issue here is about recruitment and that is why
:48:15. > :48:16.the nuclear industry plays a big part in this.
:48:17. > :48:18.It will enable us to recruit highly skilled
:48:19. > :48:21.Whether it be for health, education or nuclear.
:48:22. > :48:27.Rebecca Hanson, you want to say something.
:48:28. > :48:31.I have seen the Government report on this.
:48:32. > :48:35.NHS England has come out with a report to say it is safe
:48:36. > :48:38.to travel up to four hours in labour in order to push through the closure
:48:39. > :48:42.It is an appalling report, it doesn't make logical sense,
:48:43. > :48:50.I think all of the candidates are against the success regime.
:48:51. > :48:58.What is important is how we are going to deal with it.
:48:59. > :49:01.Labour are basically saying that this is all at the doors
:49:02. > :49:05.These are local decisions being made by
:49:06. > :49:09.Just asking Theresa May to throw money at this
:49:10. > :49:12.The success regime was sent in at the
:49:13. > :49:16.It was supposed to look at new ways of working at
:49:17. > :49:19.in the health economy of north Cumbria and what it has
:49:20. > :49:22.actually looked at is fitting in within the arbitrary budget given to
:49:23. > :49:27.The recruitment problems are not the Government's doing.
:49:28. > :49:34.They have dogged this area and the NHS for years.
:49:35. > :49:36.Whilst there's uncertainty, people will not come.
:49:37. > :49:39.We have heard of consultants being told not to bother
:49:40. > :49:44.applying because they have been told there won't be a job here.
:49:45. > :49:46.We're not going to get recruitment under those
:49:47. > :49:51.Whilst the Tories are taking money out of the NHS are
:49:52. > :49:54.nationally and locally, we are not going to get people here.
:49:55. > :50:15.Isn't it an intractable problem that you and any other
:50:16. > :50:20.You can't frankly get the doctors and the surgeons and the
:50:21. > :50:28.Why haven't we got any doctors or nurses?
:50:29. > :50:30.The reason we haven't got sufficient doctors and nurses is
:50:31. > :50:40.because previous administrations didn't train enough.
:50:41. > :50:44.The Labour Party cut training places.
:50:45. > :50:46.You just haven't trained enough in this
:50:47. > :50:53.The ones that do work in the health service because it is so
:50:54. > :50:56.there aren't enough staff, they'll leave and go to New Zealand
:50:57. > :51:12.Most of them are from outside the EU, not inside the EU.
:51:13. > :51:14.What we have done is taken doctors from third
:51:15. > :51:16.World countries to come here because we haven't trained sufficient
:51:17. > :51:20.The nuclear policy, we said we need more doctors and nurses and
:51:21. > :51:22.we will waive the tuition fees that we get
:51:23. > :51:25.we will waive the tuition fees that we get sufficient
:51:26. > :51:29.If we'd implemented our policy a few years ago, we wouldn't
:51:30. > :51:32.Jack Lennox, what is the Green party's solution to the
:51:33. > :51:34.problems that have dogged this possible for a long time?
:51:35. > :51:37.I think Caroline Lucas has been more active
:51:38. > :51:39.than almost any other MP in Parliament in promoting the NHS
:51:40. > :51:42.That is trying to underuse the health and social
:51:43. > :51:45.care act of 2012 but was put through by the Lib Dems
:51:46. > :51:48.How does that help the West Cumberland
:51:49. > :51:51.I think the problem is a lot bigger than just west
:51:52. > :51:55.The problem is the underfunding of the NHS Trust.
:51:56. > :51:58.We had this crazy reorganisation by Andrew
:51:59. > :52:00.It wasn't in the Conservative Party's manifesto.
:52:01. > :52:02.It wasn't in the coalition agreement.
:52:03. > :52:04.It just happened, the Lib Dems voted for it.
:52:05. > :52:07.We have got a huge problem here that is much bigger than this
:52:08. > :52:10.place and we need to undo what has been going on.
:52:11. > :52:11.What is the independent's candidate solution to
:52:12. > :52:15.Given that this success regime was full of
:52:16. > :52:16.highly offered people who are looking at this.
:52:17. > :52:21.I would like to see this hospital be ring fenced with NHS funding.
:52:22. > :52:24.I would like to see more money coming in from the nuclear.
:52:25. > :52:29.It should be run by the consultants and staff and people
:52:30. > :52:35.No, that would be a nice start, wouldn't it?
:52:36. > :52:38.It is sitting there, services being sent
:52:39. > :52:43.The centre of all the health for west Cumbria.
:52:44. > :52:47.Quite honestly, I put every single political party in
:52:48. > :52:50.this room together, they haven't got half a plan between them.
:52:51. > :52:59.My plan is that you have got to ask yourself
:53:00. > :53:01.why is the health service having too much pressure on?
:53:02. > :53:03.The answer is people are getting ill.
:53:04. > :53:08.The solution is to stop them getting ill.
:53:09. > :53:09.So the problem is in the food-processing industry.
:53:10. > :53:18.We are going to have to wait a long time for that to solve
:53:19. > :53:24.the problems of the west Cumberland Hospital.
:53:25. > :53:28.Just allow this epidemic to continue?
:53:29. > :53:37.The National Health Service will be overwhelmed.
:53:38. > :53:41.At the end of the day more money is being needed for the NHS?
:53:42. > :53:44.Problems of the NHS and all across the country, that would help,
:53:45. > :53:47.This Government is already invested ?10 million into
:53:48. > :53:52.As I said, save our services was created
:53:53. > :53:54.ten years ago to deal with recruitment.
:53:55. > :54:00.What about the uncertainty preventing recruitment happening.
:54:01. > :54:02.The uncertainty that has been created career, chance of solving
:54:03. > :54:10.What we need to do and what has been agreed by Philip Dunn
:54:11. > :54:12.is to have a professional Government backed review before any decision
:54:13. > :54:19.We created training places and they were cut by the
:54:20. > :54:26.We need more nurses and since they scrapped the training
:54:27. > :54:33.nursery bursaries, they have fallen by 23%.
:54:34. > :54:35.We need more people, more paramedics.
:54:36. > :54:38.Those have been cut by this Government.
:54:39. > :54:45.We need investment in our buildings and everything.
:54:46. > :54:57.The reason you don't have investment is
:54:58. > :55:00.that the Labour policy was buy one hospital and pay for six.
:55:01. > :55:04.You did promise me a chance to come back on health.
:55:05. > :55:06.You can raise the issue, I need to move on
:55:07. > :55:09.On infrastructure, the Conservative Party,
:55:10. > :55:13.I know the neglect has gone on for more than seven years, but
:55:14. > :55:16.you have had seven years to sort out the local road system for instance.
:55:17. > :55:21.My plan would see the A595 re-trunked.
:55:22. > :55:22.That was de-trunked by a previous Labour
:55:23. > :55:25.It think that is absolutely essential.
:55:26. > :55:33.Changing the classification of a road is not
:55:34. > :55:36.going to put any more tarmac down and make it any quicker, is it?
:55:37. > :55:39.Changing the classification is the start.
:55:40. > :55:41.That will allow Highway England rather than the local highway
:55:42. > :55:45.What I want to see is more duelling on the road.
:55:46. > :55:47.Actually from Carlisle down to Barra, but certainly
:55:48. > :55:50.I'm working with John Stevens to improve that.
:55:51. > :55:51.In terms of the local infrastructure?
:55:52. > :56:01.And as part of the debate as well, that journey to Carlisle would
:56:02. > :56:06.The issue would still need to be addressed.
:56:07. > :56:08.To concentrate on infrastructure, we have got such
:56:09. > :56:11.I absolutely agree the de-trunking of
:56:12. > :56:13.the A595 was a colossal mistake and needs to be reversed.
:56:14. > :56:18.The problems are so bad, the A595 is so
:56:19. > :56:20.long and the rail service needs such massive investment,
:56:21. > :56:25.that we get stuck as a community.
:56:26. > :56:30.We need to work better together as a community.
:56:31. > :56:32.There needs to be stronger leadership ringing the councils
:56:33. > :56:34.together and getting everyone talking to each other to prioritise
:56:35. > :56:40.That is what has been lacking and it has been a potential
:56:41. > :56:43.investment like Newgen because things have ground to a halt
:56:44. > :56:47.As I alluded to, this neglect of the transport
:56:48. > :56:48.infrastructure goes long beyond 2010.
:56:49. > :56:51.Labour were just as guilty of doing nothing to improve this area.
:56:52. > :56:54.We invested heavily in this area in public services
:56:55. > :56:57.We invested heavily in this area in public services we had...
:56:58. > :56:59.The roads and railways have been neglected for decades, haven't they?
:57:00. > :57:04.We had investment planned for a new build in
:57:05. > :57:08.West Cumberland Hospital which was scrapped by the Tories.
:57:09. > :57:12.?50 million gone from Whitehaven Academy.
:57:13. > :57:21.It is easy to commit money when you are just about to leave
:57:22. > :57:25.We weren't intending to leave office and what we needed was
:57:26. > :57:36.The plans for the Lillyhall bypass were under a Labour Government.
:57:37. > :57:38.Just re-labelling something as a trunk
:57:39. > :57:42.You only have to look at the existing bits of the
:57:43. > :57:46.They're not being improved because there is insufficient
:57:47. > :57:51.We have a rail line that has been neglected since about 1840.
:57:52. > :57:57.The Greens, largely opposed to building new
:57:58. > :58:00.roads, but actually it is the only solution here.
:58:01. > :58:04.Public transport is not an option in a rural area like this.
:58:05. > :58:07.I think we have a pragmatic approach to this.
:58:08. > :58:09.The public transport is very important that I think it is
:58:10. > :58:11.frustrating that that is being overlooked.
:58:12. > :58:20.There have been many studies done of how rural community
:58:21. > :58:22.their economies are hit disproportionately by cutting public
:58:23. > :58:26.The price to get to Penrith is absurd.
:58:27. > :58:30.Is about a 30 minute journey and it costs ?6.50.
:58:31. > :58:41.We're pragmatic and we understand that
:58:42. > :58:45.Ukip always exploit the neglect and isolation argument in their
:58:46. > :58:49.I read the other day Copeland is the most remote
:58:50. > :58:53.It certainly feels that way because travelling from one end
:58:54. > :58:58.We need investment into the road and rail
:58:59. > :59:00.That in turn will bring more businesses.
:59:01. > :59:04.If we leave the EU, we will have plenty of money.
:59:05. > :59:11.Let us talk to the independent candidates.
:59:12. > :59:18.Isn't the vote wasted on you in this by-election?
:59:19. > :59:32.It is because I'm a lone voice that I can
:59:33. > :59:36.actually make inroads and I can walk into offices and talk to people
:59:37. > :59:37.without somebody putting one arm behind my back.
:59:38. > :59:42.I am standing for the people of Copeland.
:59:43. > :59:44.There is a growing independent minded thinking.
:59:45. > :59:45.People are actually getting really cheesed
:59:46. > :59:47.off with the main setup of
:59:48. > :00:03.You either want somebody to speak to you or you want somebody...
:00:04. > :00:05.Look, these people, they're all political salesmen representing.
:00:06. > :00:07.They will speak for what they are told to speak for.
:00:08. > :00:21.You were'nt a supporter of Jeremy Corbyn in
:00:22. > :00:38.Are you just going to go along with him in Parliament?
:00:39. > :00:40.I'm in the Labour Party to represent the views
:00:41. > :00:46.I have had Jeremy up twice in this election.
:00:47. > :00:54.That is more than Theresa May, who I didn't
:00:55. > :00:59.You're just going to be voting fodder for the
:01:00. > :01:02.What would say is we are all in agreement.
:01:03. > :01:05.We want to save the services of west Cumberland
:01:06. > :01:15.After the excitement and late nights in the Commons last week,
:01:16. > :01:18.MPs are having a little break this week as we head into
:01:19. > :01:22.But there's still plenty in the diary in the near future -
:01:23. > :01:30.let's just remind ourselves of some key upcoming dates.
:01:31. > :01:40.There they are. We have the two by-elections on February 23rd. The
:01:41. > :01:43.budget is 8th March. That will be the last spring budget under this
:01:44. > :01:57.Government because it moves to the autumn.
:01:58. > :02:04.That round of French elections narrows the candidates, probably
:02:05. > :02:09.about eight or nine, down to two, the two who come first and second,
:02:10. > :02:16.then go into a play off round on May 7th. That will determine the next
:02:17. > :02:20.President. Steve, listening to Oliver Letwin and to the Labour
:02:21. > :02:24.leader in the House of Lords, is there any way you think that end of
:02:25. > :02:29.March deadline for Mrs May could be in jeopardy? No, I don't. Andrew
:02:30. > :02:34.Smith couldn't have been clearer with you they would do nothing to
:02:35. > :02:40.block not just Article 50 but that timetable, so I would be surprised
:02:41. > :02:44.if they don't make it. Given her, Theresa May's explicit determination
:02:45. > :02:49.to do so, not to do so would have become a problem for her, I think
:02:50. > :02:54.one way or another... No before this vote last week there was a vote nor
:02:55. > :02:59.the deadline, to agree the deadline by all sides. Plain sailing do you
:03:00. > :03:02.think? There is no serious Parliamentary resistance and it
:03:03. > :03:05.would be a personal embarrassment, I think for the Prime Minister to name
:03:06. > :03:11.the the end of March as the deadline and to miss it, unless she has a
:03:12. > :03:15.good excuse. I I reckon it will change the atmosphere of politics
:03:16. > :03:18.for the next two years, as soon as the negotiations begin, people in
:03:19. > :03:22.our profession will hunt for any detail and inside information we can
:03:23. > :03:26.find, thing also be leaked, I think from the European side from time to
:03:27. > :03:31.time, it will dominate the headlines for a solid two years and change
:03:32. > :03:37.politics. Let me just raise a possible, a dark cloud. No bigger
:03:38. > :03:41.than man's hand, that can complicate the timetable, because the Royal
:03:42. > :03:46.Assent on the current timetable has to come round the 13th. I would
:03:47. > :03:50.suggest that the Prime Minister can't trigger that until she does
:03:51. > :03:56.get the Royal Assent. If there is a bit of ping-pong that could delay
:03:57. > :03:59.that by receive day, the last thing the Europeans would want, they have
:04:00. > :04:06.another big meeting at the end of March which is the 60th anniversary
:04:07. > :04:12.of the Treaty of Rome. They don't want Article 50 to land on the
:04:13. > :04:17.table... It would infuriate everybody. My guess is she will have
:04:18. > :04:21.done it by then, this is between the Commons and the Lords, I mean Andrew
:04:22. > :04:27.Smith couldn't have been clearer, that they might send something back
:04:28. > :04:32.but they didn't expect a kind of a long play over this, so. The Liberal
:04:33. > :04:37.Democrats, they are almost an irrelevance in the Commons but not
:04:38. > :04:42.the Lords, they feel differently. Now, we don't know yet what the
:04:43. > :04:45.European Union negotiating position is going to be, we don't know
:04:46. > :04:48.because there are several crucial elections taking place, the Dutch
:04:49. > :04:53.taking place in March and then the one we put up, the French, and, at
:04:54. > :05:00.the moment, the French one is, it seems like it is coming down, to a
:05:01. > :05:08.play-off in the second round between Madame Le Pen who could come first
:05:09. > :05:12.in the first round and this Blairite figure, independent, centre-leftish
:05:13. > :05:16.Mr Macron, he may well get through and that, and the outcome of that
:05:17. > :05:21.will be an important determine napt on our negotiations. -- determinant.
:05:22. > :05:26.You o couldn't have two more different candidate, you have a
:05:27. > :05:30.national a front candidate and on the other hand the closest thing
:05:31. > :05:37.France could have you to a liberal President. With a small l. A
:05:38. > :05:42.reformist liberal President. It would be the most French thing in
:05:43. > :05:49.the world to elect someone who while the rest of the world is elected
:05:50. > :05:55.elitist, to elect someone who is the son of a teacher, who has liberal
:05:56. > :06:02.views, is a member of the French elite. It would be a thing for them
:06:03. > :06:10.to elect a man like that which I why I see them doing it. If it is Le
:06:11. > :06:14.Pen, Brexit becomes a minor sideshow, if it is Le Pen, the
:06:15. > :06:22.future of the European Union is? Danger, regardless of whether we are
:06:23. > :06:25.were in or out. I suggest if it is Mr Macron that presents some
:06:26. > :06:29.problems. He doesn't have his own party. He won't have a majority in
:06:30. > :06:33.the French assembly, he is untried and untested. He wants to do a
:06:34. > :06:41.number of things that will be unpopular which is why a number of
:06:42. > :06:48.people close to Mrs Le Pen tell me that she has her eye on 2022. She
:06:49. > :06:55.thinks lit go to hell in a hand basket under Mr Macron. He hasn't
:06:56. > :07:00.got the experience. What I find fascinating. It is not just all to
:07:01. > :07:03.play for in France, it is the fact what happens in France and Germany,
:07:04. > :07:10.not so much Holland I think but Germany later on in the year, how
:07:11. > :07:23.much it impacts what we are going to get. How much which ex #i78 panting
:07:24. > :07:25.on them. And at the time we are trying to, withdrawing ourself from
:07:26. > :07:29.European politics it is fascinating how much it will affect us. You see
:07:30. > :07:35.what Matthew was talking about earlier in the show, that what we do
:07:36. > :07:38.know, almost for sure, is that the socialist candidate will not get
:07:39. > :07:44.through to the second round. He could come firth but the
:07:45. > :07:47.centre-right candidate. If we were discussing that monthing a we would
:07:48. > :07:53.say it between teen the centre-right and the national fronts. We are to
:07:54. > :07:57.saying that. Matthew good win who spent a time in France isn't sure Le
:07:58. > :08:02.Pen will get into the second round, which is interesting. It is, I mean,
:08:03. > :08:09.it is going to be as important for the future of the European Union, as
:08:10. > :08:12.in retrospect the British 2015 general election was, if Labour had
:08:13. > :08:15.got in there would have been no referendum. That referendum has
:08:16. > :08:21.transformed the European Union because we are leaving and the
:08:22. > :08:27.French election is significant. We will be live from Paris on April
:08:28. > :08:32.23rd on the day France goings to the first round of polls. Tom Watson, he
:08:33. > :08:33.was on The Andrew Marr Show earlier today, was asked about Mr Corbyn,
:08:34. > :08:38.this is what he had to say. We had a damaging second leadership
:08:39. > :08:42.election, so we've got The polls aren't great for us,
:08:43. > :08:46.but I'm determined now we've got the leadership settled for this
:08:47. > :08:48.parliament, that we can focus on developing a very positive clear
:08:49. > :09:04.message to the British people So Julia, I don't know who are you
:09:05. > :09:09.are giggling. I find it untenable that, he is a very good media
:09:10. > :09:13.performer and he comes on and he is sitting there so well, you know,
:09:14. > :09:18.things are bad but don't worry we are looking at what we can do to win
:09:19. > :09:23.2020. The idea that Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were sitting in their
:09:24. > :09:27.offices or on TV screens at this time in the electoral cycle thinking
:09:28. > :09:33.well I wonder if we can come up with a policy the British people might
:09:34. > :09:40.like. It is a nonsense, this is Tuesday night book zlufb. I am going
:09:41. > :09:47.to ask you the question I was going to before. I would suggest that he
:09:48. > :09:54.the right. The deputy Labour leader Tom Watson is violent the leadership
:09:55. > :09:58.is settled, with one caveat, unless the Corbynistas themselves to decide
:09:59. > :10:03.to move on Mr Corbyn, if the left of the Labour Party decides then it is
:10:04. > :10:08.not settled. Settled. If that doesn't happen that is That would be
:10:09. > :10:12.the worst situation if you are a Labour moderate. The Corbynistas
:10:13. > :10:18.would be saying the problem is no Corbynism, it is Corbyn himself, if
:10:19. > :10:23.we a younger person leading the process we can win the next general
:10:24. > :10:27.election, which means you have another itration of this, another
:10:28. > :10:35.five year experiment. And that is worst of all. If you are a Labour
:10:36. > :10:40.moderate, what you want is Jeremy Corbyn contest the next general
:10:41. > :10:43.election, possibly loses badly and then a Labour not moderate runs for
:10:44. > :10:48.the leadership saying we have tried your way, the worst would be Corbyn
:10:49. > :10:53.going, and a younger seven version of him trying and the experiment
:10:54. > :10:58.being extended. I see no easy way out of this. That is why he radiated
:10:59. > :11:03.the enthusiasm of someone in a hostage video in that interview.
:11:04. > :11:10.Maybe he has the Stockholm Syndrome now. The Labour moderates have had
:11:11. > :11:14.their day in the sun, two days in the sun and they lost. I suggest
:11:15. > :11:18.they are not going to try for the hat-trick again. Is there any
:11:19. > :11:25.indication that on the more Corbyn wing of the Labour Party, there is
:11:26. > :11:30.now doubts about their man. Yes, just to translate Tom Watson, what
:11:31. > :11:36.he meant was I Tom Watson am not going to get involved in another
:11:37. > :11:42.attempted coup. I tried it and it was a catastrophe. That is question
:11:43. > :11:48.enhe says it is set selled. It is because there is speculation on a
:11:49. > :11:54.daily basis. I disagree, Julia said I think this lot don't care about
:11:55. > :11:57.winning, I think they do. If the current position continue, one of
:11:58. > :12:01.two things will happen. Either Jeremy Corbyn will decide himself
:12:02. > :12:08.will decide he doesn't want to carry on. He half enjoys I it and half
:12:09. > :12:13.hates it. Finds it a strain. If that doesn't happen there will be some
:12:14. > :12:18.people round him who will say, look, this isn't working. There is another
:12:19. > :12:24.three-and-a-half years. There is a long way to go. I can't see it
:12:25. > :12:29.lasting in this way with politics in a state of flux, Tories will be
:12:30. > :12:34.under pressure in the coming two years, to have opinion polls at this
:12:35. > :12:38.level, I think is unsustainable. Final thought from you.? Yes, the
:12:39. > :12:43.idea it St another three-and-a-half years is just madness, but the
:12:44. > :12:48.people we are putting up at replacement for Jeremy Corbyn, and
:12:49. > :12:52.they have been focus grouping them. Most members wouldn't know who most
:12:53. > :12:56.of people were let alone most of the public.
:12:57. > :13:03.Angela rain? They are not overwhelmed with leadership
:13:04. > :13:07.potential at the moment. Very diplomatically put. Neither are the
:13:08. > :13:09.Tories, but they happened to have one at the moment. All right. That
:13:10. > :13:12.is it. Now, there's no Daily
:13:13. > :13:15.or Sunday Politics for the next week But the Daily Politics will be back
:13:16. > :13:19.on Monday 20th February and I'll be back here with the Sunday Politics
:13:20. > :13:23.on the 26th. Remember if it's Sunday,
:13:24. > :13:25.it's the Sunday Politics... Just back from
:13:26. > :14:07.a very long shift at work... The staff are losing -
:14:08. > :14:13.they're just giving in. Panorama goes undercover
:14:14. > :14:18.to reveal the real cost OK, everyone, have you got
:14:19. > :14:50.your bamboo sticks? If you just paint
:14:51. > :14:51.what you want to paint, I've turned around,
:14:52. > :14:57.my painting washes away. ..and take on
:14:58. > :15:02.The Big Painting Challenge. Remember, you're not painting
:15:03. > :15:06.a pond.