:00:40. > :00:43.It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:44. > :00:46.The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone,
:00:47. > :00:47.but do the security services have the resources and
:00:48. > :00:51.We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons.
:00:52. > :00:54.As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of
:00:55. > :01:00.Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power
:01:01. > :01:04.Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job
:01:05. > :01:08.done" - we'll speak to him and the party's
:01:09. > :01:11.Here: the latest view on Brexit from north east businesses.
:01:12. > :01:13.And Labour unveils ambitious plans to re-open rail lines
:01:14. > :01:17.and invest in the metro - but are voters listening?
:01:18. > :01:29.And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political
:01:30. > :01:31.panel in the business - Toby Young, Polly Toynbee
:01:32. > :01:38.and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:39. > :01:40.First, it was the most deadly terrorist attack
:01:41. > :01:43.The attacker was shot dead trying to storm Parliament,
:01:44. > :01:46.but not before he'd murdered four people and injured 50 -
:01:47. > :01:49.one of those is still in a critical condition in hospital.
:01:50. > :01:52.His target was the very heart of our democracy,
:01:53. > :01:55.the Palace of Westminster, and he came within metres
:01:56. > :01:57.of the Prime Minister and senior Cabinet ministers.
:01:58. > :02:01.Without the quick actions of the Defence Secretary's
:02:02. > :02:03.close protection detail, fortuitously in the vicinity
:02:04. > :02:11.at the time, the outcome could have been even worse.
:02:12. > :02:19.Janan Ganesh it is four days now, getting on. What thoughts should we
:02:20. > :02:23.be having this weekend? First of all, Theresa May's Parliamentary
:02:24. > :02:27.response was exemplary. In many ways, the moment she arrived as
:02:28. > :02:32.prime minister and her six years as Home Secretary showed a positive
:02:33. > :02:34.way. No other serving politician is as steeped in counterterror and
:02:35. > :02:39.national security experience as she is and I think it showed. As to
:02:40. > :02:42.whether politics is going now, it looks like the Government will put
:02:43. > :02:49.more pressure on companies like Google and Facebook to monitor
:02:50. > :02:52.sensor radical content that flows through their channels, and I wonder
:02:53. > :02:57.whether beyond that the Government, not just our Government but around
:02:58. > :03:01.the world, will start to open this question of, during a terror attack,
:03:02. > :03:05.as it is unfolding, should there be restrictions on what can appear on
:03:06. > :03:09.social media? I was on Twitter at the time last week, during the
:03:10. > :03:15.attack, and people were posting things which may have been useful to
:03:16. > :03:18.the perpetrators, not on that occasion but future occasions.
:03:19. > :03:24.Should there be restrictions on what and how much people can post while
:03:25. > :03:28.an attack is unfolding? I think we have learned that this is like the
:03:29. > :03:31.weather, it is going to happen, it is going to happen all over the
:03:32. > :03:36.world and in every country and we deal with it well, we deal with it
:03:37. > :03:42.stoically, perhaps we are more used to it than some. We had the IRA for
:03:43. > :03:45.years, we know how to make personal risk assessments, how to know the
:03:46. > :03:50.chances of being in the wrong place at the wrong time are infinitesimal,
:03:51. > :03:55.so people in London didn't say, I'm not going to go to the centre of
:03:56. > :04:00.London today, everything carried on just the same. Because we know that
:04:01. > :04:05.the odds of it, being unlucky, are very small. Life is dangerous, this
:04:06. > :04:11.is another very small risk and it is the danger of being alive. I think
:04:12. > :04:16.from an Isis Islamist propaganda point of view, it showed just what a
:04:17. > :04:20.poor target London and the House of Commons is, and it is hard to
:04:21. > :04:23.imagine the emergency services and local people, international
:04:24. > :04:30.visitors, reacting much better than they did. And the fact that our
:04:31. > :04:35.Muslim mayor was able to make an appearance so quickly afterwards
:04:36. > :04:39.shows, I think, that we are not city riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice.
:04:40. > :04:43.It couldn't really have been a better advertisement for the values
:04:44. > :04:45.that is attacking. OK, thank you for that.
:04:46. > :04:48.So, four days after the attack, what more do we know
:04:49. > :04:51.The police have made 11 arrests, but only one remains
:04:52. > :04:57.Here's Adam with the latest on the investigation.
:04:58. > :05:02.According to a police timeline, that's how long it took
:05:03. > :05:04.Khalid Masood to drive through a crowd on Westminster
:05:05. > :05:10.to crash his car into Parliament's perimeter...
:05:11. > :05:14.to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer, before being shot by a bodyguard
:05:15. > :05:25.The public are leaving tributes to the dead at Westminster.
:05:26. > :05:30.The family of PC Palmer released a statement saying:
:05:31. > :05:32."We would like to express our gratitude to the people
:05:33. > :05:35.who were with Keith in his last moments and who were
:05:36. > :05:38.There was nothing more you could have done,
:05:39. > :05:41.you did your best and we are just grateful he was not alone."
:05:42. > :05:44.Investigators say Masood's motive may have gone to the grave with him.
:05:45. > :05:47.Officers think he acted alone, despite reports he spent a WhatsApp
:05:48. > :05:54.The Home Secretary now has such encrypted messaging
:05:55. > :06:00.There should be no place for terrorists to hide.
:06:01. > :06:03.We need to make sure that organisations like WhatsApp,
:06:04. > :06:06.and there are plenty of others like that, don't provide a secret
:06:07. > :06:08.place for terrorists to communicate with each other.
:06:09. > :06:12.It used to be that people would steam open envelopes or just
:06:13. > :06:22.listen in on phones when they wanted to find out what people were doing,
:06:23. > :06:24.legally, through warrantry, but in this situation
:06:25. > :06:26.we need to make sure that our intelligence services
:06:27. > :06:28.have the ability to get into situations like encrypted
:06:29. > :06:31.She will ask the tech industry to suggest solutions
:06:32. > :06:33.at a meeting this week, although she didn't rule out
:06:34. > :06:37.But for those caught up in the attack, perhaps it will be
:06:38. > :06:45...not the policy implications that will echo the loudest.
:06:46. > :06:48.We're joined now from the Hague by the Director of Europol,
:06:49. > :06:53.the European Police Agency, Rob Wainwright.
:06:54. > :07:02.What role has Europol played in the aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I
:07:03. > :07:04.can tell you we are actively supporting the investigation,
:07:05. > :07:08.because it is a live case I cannot of course go into the details, but
:07:09. > :07:12.to give you some context, Andrew, this is one of about 80
:07:13. > :07:17.counterterrorist cases we have been supporting across Europe this year,
:07:18. > :07:21.using a platform to shed thousands of intelligence messages between the
:07:22. > :07:24.very large counterterrorist community in Europe, and also
:07:25. > :07:28.tracking flows of terrorist finance, illegal firearms, and monitoring
:07:29. > :07:36.this terrible propaganda online as well. All of that is being made
:07:37. > :07:39.available now to the Metropolitan Police in London for this case. Do
:07:40. > :07:43.we know if there is any European link to those who may have inspired
:07:44. > :07:47.or directed Khalid Massoud? That is an active part of the inquiry being
:07:48. > :07:51.led by Metropolitan Police and it is not for me to comment or speculate
:07:52. > :07:56.on that. There are links of course in terms of the profile of the
:07:57. > :08:00.attacker and the way in which he launched these terrible events in
:08:01. > :08:04.Westminster, and those that we've seen, for example, in the Berlin
:08:05. > :08:09.Christmas market last year and the attack in Nice in the summer of last
:08:10. > :08:14.year, clear similarities between the fact that the attackers involved
:08:15. > :08:20.have criminal background, somewhat dislocated from society, each of
:08:21. > :08:24.them using a hired or stolen vehicle to deliberately aim at pedestrians
:08:25. > :08:28.in a crowded place and using a secondary weapon, whether it is a
:08:29. > :08:32.gun or a knife. So we are seeing a trend, I think, of the kind of
:08:33. > :08:35.attacks across Europe in the last couple of years and some of that at
:08:36. > :08:40.least was played out unfortunately in Westminster this week as well.
:08:41. > :08:44.Mass and was known to the emergency services, so were many of those
:08:45. > :08:47.involved in the Brussels, Paris and Berlin attacks, so something is
:08:48. > :08:53.going wrong here, we are not completely across this, are we?
:08:54. > :08:58.Actually most attacks are being stopped. This was I think at least
:08:59. > :09:03.the 14th terrorist plot or attempted attack in Britain since 2013 and the
:09:04. > :09:08.only one that has got through, and that fits a picture of what we see
:09:09. > :09:12.in France last year, 17 attempted attacks that were stopped, for
:09:13. > :09:17.example. Unfortunately some of them get through. But people on the
:09:18. > :09:21.security services' Radar getting through, in Westminster, Brussels,
:09:22. > :09:26.Paris and Berlin. There is clearly something we are not doing that
:09:27. > :09:32.could stop that. Again, if you look at what happened in Berlin and at
:09:33. > :09:36.least the first indications from what police are saying in London,
:09:37. > :09:40.these are people that haven't really appeared on Baha'i target list of
:09:41. > :09:45.the authorities, they are on the edge at best of radicalised
:09:46. > :09:49.community -- on the high target list. When you are dealing with a
:09:50. > :09:54.dispersed community of thousands of radicalised, Senate radicalised
:09:55. > :09:57.individuals, it is very difficult to monitor them 24/7, very difficult
:09:58. > :10:02.when these people, almost out of the blue and carry out the attacks that
:10:03. > :10:06.they did. I think you have to find a sense of perspective here around the
:10:07. > :10:09.work and the pressures of the work and the difficult target choices
:10:10. > :10:14.that police and security authorities have to make around Europe. The Home
:10:15. > :10:19.Secretary here in London said this morning it is time to tackle apps
:10:20. > :10:23.like WhatsApp, which we believe Massoud was using, because they
:10:24. > :10:27.encrypt from end to end and it is difficult for the security services
:10:28. > :10:33.to know what is happening there. What do you say, are you up for
:10:34. > :10:37.that? Across the hundreds of cases we have supported in recent years
:10:38. > :10:41.there is no doubt that encryption, encrypted communications are
:10:42. > :10:45.becoming more and more prominent in the way terrorists communicate, more
:10:46. > :10:48.and more of a problem, therefore, a real challenge for investigators,
:10:49. > :10:52.and that the heart of this is a stark inconsistency between the
:10:53. > :10:56.ability of the police to lawfully intercept telephone calls, but not
:10:57. > :11:02.when those messages are exchanged via a social media messaging board,
:11:03. > :11:05.for example, and that is an inconsistency in society and we have
:11:06. > :11:09.to find a solution through appropriate legislation perhaps of
:11:10. > :11:11.these technologies and law enforcement agencies working in a
:11:12. > :11:19.more constructive way. So you back that? I agree that there is
:11:20. > :11:24.certainly a problem, absolutely. We know there was a problem, I'm trying
:11:25. > :11:32.to find out if you agree with the Home Secretary's solution? I agree
:11:33. > :11:36.certainly with her calls for changes to be made. What the legislative
:11:37. > :11:39.solution for that is of course for her and other lawmakers to decide
:11:40. > :11:45.but from my point of view, yes, I would agree something has to be done
:11:46. > :11:47.to make sure we can apply more consistent interception of
:11:48. > :11:52.communication in all parts of the way in which terrorists invade our
:11:53. > :11:54.lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol, thank you very much.
:11:55. > :11:57.Here with me in the studio now is the Leader of the House
:11:58. > :12:04.What did last week's attack tell us about the security of the Palace of
:12:05. > :12:07.Westminster? It told us that we are looked after by some very
:12:08. > :12:16.courageous, very professional police officers. There is clearly going to
:12:17. > :12:21.be a lessons learned with you, as you would expect after any incident
:12:22. > :12:24.of this kind. That will look very carefully at what worked well but
:12:25. > :12:31.also whether there are changes that need to be made, that is already
:12:32. > :12:37.under way. And that is being run by professionals, by the police and
:12:38. > :12:45.security director at Parliament... Palace authorities, we will get
:12:46. > :12:48.reports from the professionals, particularly our own Parliamentary
:12:49. > :12:51.security director, and just as security matters in parliament are
:12:52. > :12:56.kept under constant review, if there are changes that need to be made as
:12:57. > :13:00.a result, then they will need to be made. Let's look at some of the
:13:01. > :13:04.issues it has thrown up, as we get some distance from these appalling
:13:05. > :13:08.events when our first reaction was always the people who lose their
:13:09. > :13:13.lives and suffer, and then we start to become a bit more analytical. Is
:13:14. > :13:17.it true that the authorities removed armed guards from Cowbridge gate,
:13:18. > :13:23.where the attacker made his entry, because they looked to threatening
:13:24. > :13:27.for tourists? -- carriage gate. No, the idea that a protest from MPs led
:13:28. > :13:35.to operational changes simply not the case. What happened in the last
:13:36. > :13:38.couple of years is that the security arrangements in new Palace Yard have
:13:39. > :13:43.actually been strengthened, but I don't think your view was would
:13:44. > :13:46.expect me to go into a detailed commentary upon operational security
:13:47. > :13:52.matters. Why were the armed guards removed? There are armed guards at
:13:53. > :13:57.all times in the Palace of Westminster, it is a matter for the
:13:58. > :14:02.security authorities and in particular for the police and direct
:14:03. > :14:08.command of those officers to decide how they are best deployed. Is it
:14:09. > :14:13.because, as some from Scotland Yard sources have reported to the papers
:14:14. > :14:17.this morning, was it done because of staffing shortages? I'm in no
:14:18. > :14:19.position to comment on the details of the operation but my
:14:20. > :14:25.understanding is that the number of people available is what the police
:14:26. > :14:29.and the security authorities working together have decided to deploy and
:14:30. > :14:35.that they think was commensurate with the threat that we faced. Is it
:14:36. > :14:40.not of concern that as the incident unfolded the gates were left
:14:41. > :14:45.unguarded by armed and unarmed, they were just unguarded, so much so
:14:46. > :14:51.that, as it was going on, a career with a parcel on a moped at was able
:14:52. > :14:57.to drive through? -- up career. I think we will need to examine that
:14:58. > :15:01.case as part of looking into any lessons learned, but what I don't
:15:02. > :15:04.yet know, because the police are still interviewing everybody
:15:05. > :15:10.involved, witnesses and police officers involved, was exactly who
:15:11. > :15:16.was standing where in the vicinity of the murder at a particular time.
:15:17. > :15:19.We have seen pictures, the gates were unguarded as people were
:15:20. > :15:25.concentrating on what was happening to the police man and to the
:15:26. > :15:29.attacker, but the delivery man was able to come through the gates with
:15:30. > :15:34.a parcel?! You have seen a particular camera angle, I think it
:15:35. > :15:38.is important before we rush to judgment, and we shouldn't be
:15:39. > :15:43.pointing fingers, we need... We are trying to get to the bottom of it.
:15:44. > :15:46.To get to the bottom of it means we have to look at what all the
:15:47. > :15:51.witnesses and all the police officers involved say about what
:15:52. > :15:54.happened, and then there needs to be a decision taken about what if any
:15:55. > :15:58.changes need to be made in light of that.
:15:59. > :16:07.We know the attacker was stopped in his tracks by the Defence
:16:08. > :16:12.Secretary's bodyguard, where was the armed roving unit that had replaced
:16:13. > :16:17.the armed guard at the gate? I cannot comment on operation details
:16:18. > :16:20.but my understanding is there were other armed officers who would have
:16:21. > :16:26.been able to prevent the attacker from getting to the chamber, as has
:16:27. > :16:31.been alleged it would be possible for him to do. Were you aware that a
:16:32. > :16:36.so-called table top simulation, carried out by Scotland Yard and the
:16:37. > :16:45.Parliamentary authorities, ended with four terrorists in this
:16:46. > :16:49.simulation able to storm parliament and killed dozens of MPs? No, that
:16:50. > :16:58.is the first time that has been mentioned to me. You are the leader
:16:59. > :17:04.of the house. These matters are dealt with by security professionals
:17:05. > :17:09.who are involved, they are advised by a security committee, chaired by
:17:10. > :17:14.the Deputy Speaker, but we do not debate operational details in
:17:15. > :17:18.public. I'm not asking for a debate, I raise this because it's been
:17:19. > :17:22.reported because it's quite clear that after this simulation, it
:17:23. > :17:29.raised serious questions about the security of the palace. Actions
:17:30. > :17:36.should have followed. What I've said to you is that these matters are
:17:37. > :17:39.kept under constant review and that there are always changes made both
:17:40. > :17:45.in the deployment of individual officers and security guards of the
:17:46. > :17:49.palace staff and other plans to strengthen the hard security of the
:17:50. > :17:56.perimeter. If you look back at Hansard December last year, they was
:17:57. > :18:01.a plan already been brought forward to strengthen the security at
:18:02. > :18:13.carriage Gates, looking at questions of access. Will there be armed
:18:14. > :18:18.guards now? You need to look not just at armed guards, you need to
:18:19. > :18:21.look at the entirety of the security engagements including fencing.
:18:22. > :18:25.There's lots about the security we don't need to know and shouldn't
:18:26. > :18:30.know, but whether or not there are armed guards is something we will
:18:31. > :18:36.find out quite soon and I'm asking you if you think there should be. If
:18:37. > :18:39.you think the judgment is by our security experts that there need to
:18:40. > :18:45.be more armed guards in certain places, then they will be deployed
:18:46. > :18:50.accordingly, but I think before we rush to make conclusions about
:18:51. > :18:54.lessons to be learned from Wednesday's appalling attack, it is
:18:55. > :18:57.important the police are allowed to get on with completing the interview
:18:58. > :19:02.of witnesses and their own officers, and then that there is considered
:19:03. > :19:08.view taken about what changes might need to be made and then they will
:19:09. > :19:12.be implemented. Let me come onto the triggering of Article 50 that begins
:19:13. > :19:17.our negotiations to exit the European Union. It will happen on
:19:18. > :19:21.Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told Germany's most popular newspaper
:19:22. > :19:26.that he wants to make an example of the UK to make everyone realise it's
:19:27. > :19:33.not worth leaving the EU. What do you make of that? I think all sorts
:19:34. > :19:38.of things are said in advance of negotiations beginning. Clearly the
:19:39. > :19:44.commission will want to ensure the EU 27 holds together. As the Prime
:19:45. > :19:49.Minister has said, that is a British national interest as well. She has
:19:50. > :19:53.been very clear... What do you make of President Juncker's remark? It
:19:54. > :20:02.doesn't surprise me ahead of negotiations but I think if rational
:20:03. > :20:05.mutual interest is to the fore that it's perfectly possible for an
:20:06. > :20:11.agreement to be negotiated between the UK and our 27 friends and allies
:20:12. > :20:15.that addresses all of the issues from trade to security, police
:20:16. > :20:20.cooperation, foreign policy co-operation, works for all
:20:21. > :20:25.countries. The EU wants to agree a substantial divorce bill before it
:20:26. > :20:31.will even discuss any future UK EU relations, what do you make of that?
:20:32. > :20:36.Article 50 says the terms of exit need to be negotiated in the context
:20:37. > :20:40.of the kind of future relationship that's going to exist between the
:20:41. > :20:46.departing country and the remaining member states. It seems it is simply
:20:47. > :20:50.not possible to separate those two. Clearly there will need to be a
:20:51. > :20:54.discussion about joint assets and join liabilities but I think if we
:20:55. > :20:58.all keep to the fore the fact we will continue to be neighbours, we
:20:59. > :21:00.will continue to be essential allies and trading partners, then it is
:21:01. > :21:17.possible to come to a deal that works for all size. The
:21:18. > :21:20.question is do you agree the divorce bill first and then look at the
:21:21. > :21:23.subsequent relations we will have or do you do them both in parallel?
:21:24. > :21:28.Article 50 itself says they have to run together. Do you think they have
:21:29. > :21:33.to be done together or sequentially? I think it is impossible to separate
:21:34. > :21:37.the two but we will get into negotiations very soon and then once
:21:38. > :21:43.David Davis is sitting down with Michel Barnier and others and the
:21:44. > :21:48.national governments become involved too, then I hope we can make steady
:21:49. > :21:52.progress. An early deal about each other's citizens would be a good
:21:53. > :22:01.piece of low hanging fruit. Is the Government willing to pay a
:22:02. > :22:05.substantial divorce bill? The Prime Minister has said we don't rule out
:22:06. > :22:10.some kind of continuing payments, for example there may be EU
:22:11. > :22:17.programmes in the future in which we want to continue to participate. 50
:22:18. > :22:23.billion? We don't envisage long-term payments of vast sums of money. So
:22:24. > :22:28.50 billion isn't even the Government ballpark? You are tempting me to get
:22:29. > :22:33.into the detail of negotiation, that is something that will be starting
:22:34. > :22:41.very soon and let's leave it to the negotiations. During the referendum
:22:42. > :22:45.there was no talk from the Leave side about any question of
:22:46. > :22:49.separation bill, now the talk is of 50 billion and I'm trying to find
:22:50. > :22:59.out if the British government thinks that of amount is on your radar. The
:23:00. > :23:05.Government is addressing the situation in which we now are, which
:23:06. > :23:09.is that we have a democratic obligation to implement the decision
:23:10. > :23:14.of the people in the referendum last year, and that we need to do that in
:23:15. > :23:19.a way that maximises the opportunity, the future prosperity
:23:20. > :23:22.and security of everybody in the UK. Let me try one more thing on the
:23:23. > :23:27.Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper will be published I think on
:23:28. > :23:32.Thursday, is that right? We haven't announced an exact date but you will
:23:33. > :23:37.see the white Paper very soon. Let's say it is Thursday, it will enshrine
:23:38. > :23:43.thousands of EU laws into UK law, it will use what's called Henry VIII
:23:44. > :23:49.powers, who of course was a dictator. Is this an attempt to
:23:50. > :23:56.avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny? No, we are repealing the Communities
:23:57. > :24:00.Act 1972, then put existing EU legal obligations on the UK statutory
:24:01. > :24:07.footing, so business know where they stand. Then, because a lot of those
:24:08. > :24:14.EU regulations will for example refer to the commission or another
:24:15. > :24:18.regulator, you need to substitute a UK authority in place so we need to
:24:19. > :24:29.have a power under secondary legislation to tweak the European
:24:30. > :24:35.regulators so it is coherent. This is weather Henry VIII powers come
:24:36. > :24:39.in. It is secondary legislation and the scope, the definition of those
:24:40. > :24:42.powers and when they can be used in what circumstances is something the
:24:43. > :24:48.parliament will have to approve in voting through the bill itself. And
:24:49. > :24:53.if it is as innocuous as you say, will you accept the proposal of the
:24:54. > :24:57.Lords for an enhanced scrutiny process on the secondary
:24:58. > :25:01.legislation? Neither the relevant committee of the House of Lords, the
:25:02. > :25:07.constitution committee, nor anyone else has seen the text of the bill
:25:08. > :25:10.and I think when it comes out, I hope that those members of the House
:25:11. > :25:16.of Lords will find that reassuring, but as I say the definition of those
:25:17. > :25:22.powers are something the parliament itself will take the final decision.
:25:23. > :25:24.David Lidington, thank you for being with us.
:25:25. > :25:26.So, Ukip has lost its only MP - Douglas Carswell.
:25:27. > :25:28.He defected to Ukip from the Conservative Party
:25:29. > :25:30.almost three years ago, but yesterday announced
:25:31. > :25:32.that he was quitting to sit as an independent.
:25:33. > :25:34.His surprise defection came in August 2014 saying,
:25:35. > :25:36."Only Ukip can shake up that cosy little clique called Westminster".
:25:37. > :25:40.But his bromance with Nigel Farage turned sour when Mr Carswell
:25:41. > :25:42.criticised the so-called "shock and awful" strategy as
:25:43. > :25:47.Then, during the EU referendum campaign last year, Nigel Farage
:25:48. > :25:50.was part of the unofficial Leave.EU campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell
:25:51. > :25:56.opted to support the official Vote Leave campaign.
:25:57. > :25:58.Just last month, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage
:25:59. > :26:01.accused Douglas Carswell of thwarting his chances
:26:02. > :26:02.of being awarded a knighthood, writing that,
:26:03. > :26:10.Announcing his resignation on his website yesterday,
:26:11. > :26:13.Mr Carswell said, "I desperately wanted us to leave the EU.
:26:14. > :26:16.Now we can be certain that that is going to happen, I have
:26:17. > :26:18.decided that I will be leaving Ukip."
:26:19. > :26:21.When Mr Carswell left the Conservative Party in 2014
:26:22. > :26:24.he resigned as an MP, triggering a by-election.
:26:25. > :26:26."I must seek permission from my boss," he said referring
:26:27. > :26:35.This time, though, Mr Carswell has said there will be no by-election.
:26:36. > :26:41.We're joined now from Salford by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall.
:26:42. > :26:51.Welcome back to the programme. Are you happy to see the back of your
:26:52. > :26:57.only MP? Well, do you know, I'm always sad when people leave Ukip at
:26:58. > :27:02.a grass roots level or Parliamentary level, but I'm sad but I'm not
:27:03. > :27:06.surprised by this. There has been adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the
:27:07. > :27:10.past couple of years, his relationship with Nigel Farage
:27:11. > :27:15.certainly hasn't helped, and it is a hangover from the former regime
:27:16. > :27:18.which I inherited. I try to bring the party together, I thought I had
:27:19. > :27:22.done that for a few months but it seems now as if I was only papering
:27:23. > :27:29.over the cracks. Douglas has gone and I think we will move on and be a
:27:30. > :27:33.more unified party as a result. Did Douglas Carswell jump because he
:27:34. > :27:36.expected to be pushed out your national executive committee
:27:37. > :27:39.tomorrow? He came before the National executive committee to
:27:40. > :27:43.answer questions regarding issues that have come to the fore over the
:27:44. > :27:50.last couple of months. There was the knighthood issue, the issue
:27:51. > :27:55.surrounding the Thanet election and his comments in a book which came
:27:56. > :27:59.out regarding Brexit. So was he under suspicion? He was coming to
:28:00. > :28:07.answer these questions and they would have been difficult. So he did
:28:08. > :28:11.jump in your view? No, I'm not saying he would have been pushed out
:28:12. > :28:20.of the party but he would have faced difficult questions. What is clear
:28:21. > :28:24.is that a fissure had developed and I'm not surprised by him leaving the
:28:25. > :28:29.party. You have also lost Diane James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks,
:28:30. > :28:34.you failed to win the Stoke by election, Mr Carswell is now a
:28:35. > :28:42.pundit on US television, Ukip now stands for the UK irrelevance party,
:28:43. > :28:58.doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday on 12%, membership continues to
:28:59. > :29:02.rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4 million people voted for Ukip. Over
:29:03. > :29:06.the summer exciting things will be happening in the party, we will
:29:07. > :29:10.rewrite the constitution, restructure the party, it will have
:29:11. > :29:15.a new feel to it and we will be launching pretty much the post
:29:16. > :29:20.Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used to pay quite a lot of your bills, he
:29:21. > :29:24.said the current leadership, that would be you, couldn't knock the
:29:25. > :29:30.skin off a rice pudding, another way of saying you are relevant, isn't
:29:31. > :29:35.it? I don't think that's fair. I've only been in the job since November
:29:36. > :29:39.the 28th, we have taken steps to restructure the party already, the
:29:40. > :29:43.party is on a sound financial footing, we won't have a problem
:29:44. > :29:48.money wise going forward. It is a party which can really unified, look
:29:49. > :29:53.forward to the post Brexit Iraq, tomorrow we are launching our Brexit
:29:54. > :30:00.test for the Prime Minister. If it wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have
:30:01. > :30:02.been a referendum and we wouldn't have Brexit. Every time you say you
:30:03. > :30:09.will unified, someone else leaves. Is Arron Banks still a member? No,
:30:10. > :30:13.not at this moment in time. He has been a generous donor in the past,
:30:14. > :30:19.he's done a great job of ensuring we get Brexit and I'm thankful for that
:30:20. > :30:22.but he isn't a member. He has just submitted an invoice of ?2000 for
:30:23. > :30:33.the use of call centres, will you pay that? No. That should be
:30:34. > :30:38.interesting to watch. In the aftermath of the Westminster
:30:39. > :30:42.attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News that it vindicates Donald Trump's
:30:43. > :30:47.extreme vetting of migrants. Since the attacker was born in Kent, like
:30:48. > :30:51.Nigel Farage, can you explain the relevance of the remark? I
:30:52. > :30:56.personally haven't supported Donald Trump's position on this, but what I
:30:57. > :31:00.will say, this is what Nigel has said as well, we have a problem
:31:01. > :31:05.within the Muslim community, it is a small number of people who hate the
:31:06. > :31:09.way we live... Can you explain the relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr
:31:10. > :31:25.Farage also made the point about multiculturalism being the
:31:26. > :31:27.problem as well and he is correct on that because we cannot have separate
:31:28. > :31:29.communities living separate lives and never integrating. How would
:31:30. > :31:32.extreme vetting of migrants help you track down a man who was born in
:31:33. > :31:35.Kent? In this case it wouldn't. Maybe in other cases it would. But,
:31:36. > :31:39.as I say, I'm not a supporter of Donald Trump's position on extreme
:31:40. > :31:42.vetting, never have been, so I'm the wrong person to ask the question
:31:43. > :31:47.too, Andrew. That has probably become clear in my efforts to get
:31:48. > :31:50.you to answer it. Let me as too, should there be a by-election in
:31:51. > :31:54.Clacton now? Douglas has called by-elections in the past when he has
:31:55. > :32:01.left a political party, I know certain people in Ukip are keen to
:32:02. > :32:04.go down this line, Douglas is always keen on recall and if 20% of people
:32:05. > :32:07.in his constituency want a by-election then maybe we should
:32:08. > :32:14.have won. Ukip will be opening nominations for Clacton very soon.
:32:15. > :32:20.Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have Douglas Carswell here in the studio.
:32:21. > :32:27.Why not call a by-election? I'm not switching parties. You are, you are
:32:28. > :32:31.becoming independent. There is a difference, I've not submitted
:32:32. > :32:35.myself to the whip up a new party, if I was, I would be obliged to
:32:36. > :32:39.trigger a by-election. If every time an MP in the House of Commons
:32:40. > :32:43.resigned the whip or lost the whip, far from actually strengthening the
:32:44. > :32:48.democracy against the party bosses, that would give those who ran
:32:49. > :32:53.parties and enormous power, so I'm being absolutely consistent here,
:32:54. > :32:56.I'm not joining a party. It is a change of status and Nigel Farage
:32:57. > :33:05.has just said he will write to every constituent in Clacton and he wants
:33:06. > :33:09.to try and get 20% of constituents to older by-election. We are going
:33:10. > :33:14.to testing, he says, write to every house in Clacton, find out if his
:33:15. > :33:18.constituents want a by-election, if 20% do we will find out if Mr
:33:19. > :33:24.Carswell is honourable. I'm sure they will be delighted to hear from
:33:25. > :33:26.Nigel. There have been several by-elections when Nigel has had the
:33:27. > :33:33.opportunity to contact the electorate we did -- which did not
:33:34. > :33:37.always go to plan. If you got 20%, would you? Yesterday I sent an
:33:38. > :33:42.e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I have had a lot of responses back,
:33:43. > :33:49.overwhelmingly supported. Recently you said you were 100% Ukip, now you
:33:50. > :33:54.are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa May triggering article 50, we won,
:33:55. > :33:58.Andrew. You knew a few months ago she was going to do that. On June
:33:59. > :34:03.the 24th I had serious thought about making the move but I wanted to be
:34:04. > :34:07.absolutely certain that Article 50 would be triggered and I think it is
:34:08. > :34:11.right. This is why ultimately Ukip exists, to get us out of the
:34:12. > :34:15.European Union. We should be cheerful instead of attacking one
:34:16. > :34:20.another, this is our moment, we made it happen. Did you try to sideline
:34:21. > :34:25.the former Ukip leader during the referendum campaign? Not at all, I
:34:26. > :34:30.have been open about this, the idea I have been involved in subterfuge.
:34:31. > :34:34.You try to sideline him openly rather than by subterfuge? I made
:34:35. > :34:37.the point we needed to be open, broad and progressive to win. I made
:34:38. > :34:42.it clear in my acceptance speech in Clacton and when I said that Vote
:34:43. > :34:45.Leave should get designation that the only way Euroscepticism would
:34:46. > :34:51.win was by being more than just angry natives. What do you make of
:34:52. > :34:59.that? I am over the moon that we have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas
:35:00. > :35:02.I rarely have that much confidence in Theresa May because history
:35:03. > :35:05.proves that she is good at talking the talk but in walking the walk
:35:06. > :35:09.often fails, and I'm disappointed because I wanted Douglas to be part
:35:10. > :35:14.of the post Brexit Ukip where we move forward with a raft of domestic
:35:15. > :35:19.policies and go on to take seat at Westminster. Do you think you try to
:35:20. > :35:22.sideline Mr Farage during the referendum campaign? Vote Leave
:35:23. > :35:28.certainly didn't want Nigel Farage front of house, we know that. They
:35:29. > :35:34.freely admit that, they admitted it on media over the past year. Nigel
:35:35. > :35:39.still was front of house because he is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for
:35:40. > :35:42.Nigel, as I said earlier, we wouldn't have at the referendum and
:35:43. > :35:47.we wouldn't have achieved Brexit because Nigel Farage appeals, like
:35:48. > :35:52.Ukip to a certain section of the population. If our primary motive is
:35:53. > :35:55.to get us out of the European Union, why are we having this row, why
:35:56. > :35:59.can't we just celebrate what is happening on Wednesday? We can, but
:36:00. > :36:04.you are far more confident that Theresa May will deliver on this
:36:05. > :36:07.than I am. Ukip may have been a single issue pressure group ten
:36:08. > :36:11.years ago, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you joined in
:36:12. > :36:15.2014, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you stood for in
:36:16. > :36:20.2015 at the general election, and I'm disappointed that you have left
:36:21. > :36:23.us when we are moving onto an exciting era. What specifically
:36:24. > :36:28.gives you a lack of confidence in Mrs May's ability deliver? Her
:36:29. > :36:33.record as Home Secretary, she said she would deal with radical Islam,
:36:34. > :36:37.nothing happened, she said she would get immigration down to the tens of
:36:38. > :36:40.thousands, last year in her last year as Home Secretary as city the
:36:41. > :36:44.size of Newcastle came to this country, that is not tens of
:36:45. > :36:48.thousands. I think we need to take yes for an answer eventually. The
:36:49. > :36:52.problem with some Eurosceptics is they never accept they have won the
:36:53. > :36:57.argument. We have one, Theresa May is going to do what we have wanted
:36:58. > :37:01.her to do, let's be happy, let's celebrate that. But let's wait until
:37:02. > :37:05.she starts bartering things away, until she betrays our fishermen,
:37:06. > :37:08.just as other Conservative prime ministers have done in the past.
:37:09. > :37:13.Let's wait until we end up still paying some sort of membership fee
:37:14. > :37:16.into the European Union or a large divorce bill. That is not what
:37:17. > :37:25.people voted for on June the 23rd and if you want to align yourself
:37:26. > :37:29.with that, you are clearly not a Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip
:37:30. > :37:34.to have relevance, it has to go wrong? I'm confident politics will
:37:35. > :37:38.come back to our terms but -- our turf but there will be a post Brexit
:37:39. > :37:41.Ukip that will stand for veterans, book slashing the foreign aid bill
:37:42. > :37:47.and becoming the party of law and order. Finally, to you, Douglas
:37:48. > :37:52.Carswell, you say you have confidence in Mrs May to deliver in
:37:53. > :37:58.the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't. You backed her, you were
:37:59. > :38:01.Conservative, you believe that Brexit will be delivered under a
:38:02. > :38:07.Conservative Government. Why would you not bite the 2020 election as a
:38:08. > :38:10.Conservative? I feel comfortable being independent. If you join a
:38:11. > :38:13.party you have to agree to a bunch of stuff I would not want to agree
:38:14. > :38:22.with. I am comfortable being independent. So you will go into
:38:23. > :38:26.2020 as an independent? If you look at the raising of funds, what Vote
:38:27. > :38:29.Leave did as a pop-up party... We only have five seconds, will you
:38:30. > :38:34.fight as an independent in the next general election? Let's wait and
:38:35. > :38:50.see. Very well! Thank you both very much.
:38:51. > :38:53.Hello and welcome to your local part of the show
:38:54. > :38:59.This week: A future Labour government offers an ambitious plan
:39:00. > :39:02.to re-open old rail lines and invest hundreds of millions
:39:03. > :39:08.But amid all the party splits, is anybody listening?
:39:09. > :39:11.I'll be asking Newcastle Central MP Chi Onwurah
:39:12. > :39:18.But first - it's been a traumatic week at Westminster.
:39:19. > :39:24.Party politics obviously taking a back seat given
:39:25. > :39:39.Chi Onwura, you were in Parliament at the time. What was the experience
:39:40. > :39:44.was locked in the chamber for five was locked in the chamber for five
:39:45. > :39:51.hours, we felt reasonably secure, Park at certain times when we could
:39:52. > :39:56.hear noises and shouting. But it was the shock, and particularly the
:39:57. > :40:00.policeman, the time we knew he had been stabbed, but we didn't know he
:40:01. > :40:06.had been killed. It was a huge shock, and just think that
:40:07. > :40:12.Parliament was under attack, under siege, and that the blood side had
:40:13. > :40:17.been mown down by a vicious murderer, that was obviously very
:40:18. > :40:22.shocking. And also having constituents their staff, it is a
:40:23. > :40:26.huge place, there was a lot of huge place, there was a lot of
:40:27. > :40:29.uncertainty, but also a lot of gallows humour and camaraderie. I
:40:30. > :40:34.learned a lot about many of my conservative colleagues that I
:40:35. > :40:39.didn't know. Lord Kirkhope, you were there as well. Yes, and I was
:40:40. > :40:43.evacuated with many others into Westminster Abbey is literally a
:40:44. > :40:50.sanctuary for us all for quite a number of hours. And there was a
:40:51. > :40:53.recent concern. But I must admit that I thought the police and the
:40:54. > :40:58.authorities were calm and collected, and as a result of that, there
:40:59. > :41:03.wasn't any panic at all, which I thought was very commendable in the
:41:04. > :41:08.circumstances. Yes, I must add that the House of Commons and House of
:41:09. > :41:10.Lords staff were amazing, and the doorkeepers. They were so
:41:11. > :41:21.supportive, so helpful and saw coming. You will have time to
:41:22. > :41:25.reflect on this and on the Jo Cox murder, reflecting on how safe you
:41:26. > :41:29.feel as an MP and your staff as well. What is your view? Edited the
:41:30. > :41:31.shocking and disturbing, and the shocking and disturbing, and the
:41:32. > :41:38.difference between knowing in theory that you may be a target and feeling
:41:39. > :41:42.it is huge. But we're going to review security but in the
:41:43. > :41:49.constituency and in Parliament. Basically it is still the same, that
:41:50. > :41:52.I need to be accessible, Parliament, democracy to function needs to be
:41:53. > :41:57.open and transparent, and we do need to be accessible. And that is the
:41:58. > :42:03.balance that we have to get right. And I don't think we can move it
:42:04. > :42:10.much further to words more security that acts as a barrier to engagement
:42:11. > :42:14.with the public. Lord Kirkhope, you Rob Lee see an MP as well, but wind
:42:15. > :42:21.and opened Chrissy. Do you think things have moved on drastically
:42:22. > :42:25.from when you were an MP. This event was exactly a year after the
:42:26. > :42:28.atrocities in Brussels where I was actually a few hundred yards away
:42:29. > :42:34.from where that one went off in the underground station. But I think the
:42:35. > :42:37.important thing is that the Prime Minister got it absolutely right,
:42:38. > :42:42.when she said we will not waver in the face of terrorism. Democracy
:42:43. > :42:46.will prevail. And that is something that is important in the way that we
:42:47. > :42:51.do things. And I know that working together, there was no sort of...
:42:52. > :42:53.Politically improper people closer together, in the Lords as well as
:42:54. > :42:58.the Commons, and I think that was important. The resolution to do what
:42:59. > :43:04.is necessary to protect the citizens of the country and around situation.
:43:05. > :43:12.But not to allow ourselves to be distracted. We all pay a price.
:43:13. > :43:18.Public life, I'm sure you do as an MP. Perhaps a Lord is not quite so
:43:19. > :43:21.important in that sense because we are not elected anymore, but we all
:43:22. > :43:28.pay a price life being public figures. That is a fact. And the
:43:29. > :43:31.quite dangerous. But at the same time we must not allow ourselves to
:43:32. > :43:39.do things in such a way that we can no longer serve people. Yes, I first
:43:40. > :43:43.entered Parliament are shocked by the police with machine guns. It was
:43:44. > :43:48.the first time I had worked in an environment where security was so
:43:49. > :43:53.visible. Now, obviously recognising the huge sacrifice that the police
:43:54. > :44:00.and Keith Palmer specifically made, I find it reassuring rather than
:44:01. > :44:06.shocking. But we do need to make sure that... As I was leaving
:44:07. > :44:14.Parliament on Wednesday evening a police officer apologised to me for
:44:15. > :44:18.keeping MPs waiting. Which actually made me almost want to cry in a way,
:44:19. > :44:28.but at the same time it is very British. As parliamentarians, it is
:44:29. > :44:32.the values that we won't uphold in Parliament, and I think that with
:44:33. > :44:36.got to work together to make sure that we maintain that. The open
:44:37. > :44:45.democracy that people can see and touch. And you go to review security
:44:46. > :44:49.measures sensibly, presumably. There has to be a full review as always
:44:50. > :44:53.when these things happen. I remember when I was in the Home Office we had
:44:54. > :44:56.terrorism issues to deal with at that time. Life was dangerous then
:44:57. > :45:01.as well. It is dangerous in a different way now. Probably more so,
:45:02. > :45:05.but you learn lessons from these things. You do things. But at the
:45:06. > :45:10.you're still sufficiently accessible you're still sufficiently accessible
:45:11. > :45:13.to the people you need to work for will stop let's hope we're not
:45:14. > :45:14.discussing to many more events like that in the future.
:45:15. > :45:16.Well, despite the attacks, political business does continue.
:45:17. > :45:19.And Labour's Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell used a visit to Newcastle
:45:20. > :45:24.It was a significant announcement with new rolling stock
:45:25. > :45:27.on the Tyne and Wear Metro, old railway lines re-opened
:45:28. > :45:30.and improvements to stations in Darlington and Middlesbrough.
:45:31. > :45:33.Yet in the face of continued party in-fighting and unrest,
:45:34. > :45:39.is anybody listening to Labour's plans?
:45:40. > :45:45.It's a real pleasure to be back in Newcastle. A Labour Shadow
:45:46. > :45:52.Chancellor in Newcastle, committing to a huge investment in the region's
:45:53. > :45:57.transport network. ?2000 per head invested in transport
:45:58. > :46:02.infrastructure. , ?200 per head in the north-east coast that cannot be
:46:03. > :46:07.fair. It holds back investment and holds back jobs and wages. We are
:46:08. > :46:10.trying to give a commitment. Based on the assessment of what is needed.
:46:11. > :46:15.That comes from local authorities, from real candidates and Mayor 's
:46:16. > :46:18.coming forward and local MPs saying, these are the improvements we need
:46:19. > :46:24.to generate industry and jobs. If you like railways, the commitment to
:46:25. > :46:28.all your Christmases at once. John McDonnell promise more than ?530
:46:29. > :46:35.million for new trains on the Tyne Wear Metro. ?300 million to reopen
:46:36. > :46:42.another line, and a to restart us your services on the Ashington wife
:46:43. > :46:48.and timeline. At ?400 million of improvements on Teesside. In total
:46:49. > :46:51.more than ?1.4 billion committed in just one speech, funded through
:46:52. > :46:56.borrowing. Welcome news for campaigners who want this freight
:46:57. > :47:01.only line to Tyneside to come to life with passengers. We welcome
:47:02. > :47:08.announcements from any political parties. We starve George Osborne
:47:09. > :47:13.always talking about his Northern powerhouse, but that seemed to
:47:14. > :47:18.finish at Leeds. Money is essential, and whichever party is in government
:47:19. > :47:23.at the minute, we ask them to commit to funding this scheme. The biggest
:47:24. > :47:27.investment promise was on Tyne Wear's under pressure Metro. Dog by
:47:28. > :47:31.problems and still using trains built when Jim Callaghan was Prime
:47:32. > :47:37.Minister. But have passengers even notice the announcement? I never
:47:38. > :47:43.seen it. It is needed, so that they run on time. I use the Metro every
:47:44. > :47:46.day, but I haven't heard anything about the announcement, so I can't
:47:47. > :47:53.give you an informed opinion. Nothing. No. You have heard about
:47:54. > :47:57.it? You're the first one. Yes, there should be investment in the Metro.
:47:58. > :48:02.No, don't know anything about it. Nothing at all. Perhaps the messages
:48:03. > :48:07.on getting through to most because they were's current performances
:48:08. > :48:10.even Rob than the Metro. 15 points behind in the opinion polls and dog
:48:11. > :48:14.by division. It looks like a long journey to power. The government's
:48:15. > :48:19.Northern powerhouse minister was keen to pour cold water when he
:48:20. > :48:23.visited Teesside. They come up here, tell us how terrible everything is,
:48:24. > :48:28.then make all these promises on the back of money that doesn't exist.
:48:29. > :48:32.They don't have the money. Nobody thinks Labour's economic plans are
:48:33. > :48:35.credible. Judge them when they were in power. We got relatively worse
:48:36. > :48:41.off. It has been this Conservative government that has been billions of
:48:42. > :48:45.pounds into transport improvements. There's no question of voters and
:48:46. > :48:47.businesses want more investment. Questions remain about whether
:48:48. > :48:49.Labour will ever get the chance to match their rhetoric on real with
:48:50. > :49:00.results. Chi Onwura, live's economic
:49:01. > :49:04.reputation was trashed post 2010. Borrowing 1.4 billion to invest in
:49:05. > :49:07.transport, which is part ?100 billion that John McDonnell wants to
:49:08. > :49:12.put into this infrastructure bank. It is not credible, is it? The
:49:13. > :49:17.National Infrastructure Plan will be 200 billion of public sector money
:49:18. > :49:22.and 200 billion of private sector money which will be used for a
:49:23. > :49:26.number of schemes. But this is fantastic news, as someone who was
:49:27. > :49:31.here when the Metro was first built in 1981 and would love it to the
:49:32. > :49:33.world leading as it was then, it is absolutely right. But on the
:49:34. > :49:38.specifics, because for the last specifics, because for the last
:49:39. > :49:43.coalition government and the Tory government and doing is borrowing
:49:44. > :49:45.more, not to invest in our infrastructure, borrowing more
:49:46. > :49:50.because they cannot get growth into our economy. Borrowing as a
:49:51. > :49:54.percentage of GDP has gone up under the Tories and the coalition
:49:55. > :50:01.government, and they are ten years late on a five-year plan. As anyone
:50:02. > :50:08.knows, if you are borrowing to invest which gets a return. On
:50:09. > :50:12.Friday I was at the launch of Tech nation, which is all about how the
:50:13. > :50:16.north-east is doing fantastic new businesses in the tech sector. One
:50:17. > :50:19.of the big issues was transport. You cannot get to Newcastle from
:50:20. > :50:23.Middlesbrough in a decent amount of times that these companies can
:50:24. > :50:31.attract new employers to get the skills. Transport is crucial and
:50:32. > :50:34.investing in means a return. It was a bold, ambitious announcement. I
:50:35. > :50:37.have pored over budgets in the last few years looking for crumbs and
:50:38. > :50:41.investment here and there from the government. This is pretty big
:50:42. > :50:44.stuff. I can go out and make an announcement like that because I am
:50:45. > :50:49.just as likely to be in charge of the government as the Labour Party
:50:50. > :50:53.is. We have put an enormous amount of money, as long as I have been in
:50:54. > :50:56.politics, 40 years, we have been putting money into, and positively
:50:57. > :51:02.into, the north-east and the rest of the North of England. But a lot more
:51:03. > :51:05.going to London. Outside of London begin the second largest and per
:51:06. > :51:12.capita public spending in the north-east. Why do we have good
:51:13. > :51:15.transport links? Inserted with Heseltine years ago. The motorways
:51:16. > :51:21.of the north-east are mostly as a result of Conservative government.
:51:22. > :51:26.There are no motorways. As far as I'm aware there are. I have studied
:51:27. > :51:34.were John McDonnell said. Amid a very unfair remark. He said that for
:51:35. > :51:37.decades under investment by distant governments and their corporate
:51:38. > :51:41.allies have resulted in failures in the north-east of it. Can I just
:51:42. > :51:43.tell you that many small and medium-sized businesses around the
:51:44. > :51:48.north-east at the moment are investing, the successes that there
:51:49. > :51:54.have been in this area, feel those remarks to be not helpful. We should
:51:55. > :51:57.be looking at a positive attitude to the north-east. If the Labour Party
:51:58. > :52:02.can only come up with this stuff, I'm afraid that is not very good for
:52:03. > :52:09.the future. Talking down the region is the accusation. We, the Labour
:52:10. > :52:12.Party, are the champions, and particularly in Parliament, where
:52:13. > :52:17.the idea that the Northern powerhouse go north of Osborne's
:52:18. > :52:23.constituency is radical. And of course now he'll be focusing on
:52:24. > :52:28.London. We recognise the huge successes, like said about the tech
:52:29. > :52:33.sector, the health sector, our skills sector. But that is with huge
:52:34. > :52:41.barriers, and the lack of investment in our infrastructure has held us
:52:42. > :52:45.back. Enterprise zones, development corporations, all of that under
:52:46. > :52:48.Conservative governments. That is all around the edges. Let us get
:52:49. > :52:51.proper investment in infrastructure we can do the rest. The problem is,
:52:52. > :52:55.as we saw, is anybody taking notice? as we saw, is anybody taking notice?
:52:56. > :53:01.Given how far behind you are in opinion polls and the headlines are
:53:02. > :53:05.about Labour divisions. I recognise that. And we certainly have not got
:53:06. > :53:12.our media management where we need to be. But you see the increasing
:53:13. > :53:15.division in the government, that's why there was a huge climb-down over
:53:16. > :53:22.the budget because you cannot keep your backbench MPs online, and this
:53:23. > :53:27.debate is now being heard in Whitehall about why I'm investing in
:53:28. > :53:33.the South? Why do all the calculation see more figures in the
:53:34. > :53:38.South. Ten times more investment in London in the north-east. Is that
:53:39. > :53:40.fair? Transport specifically, undoubtedly there is more money in
:53:41. > :53:45.London, and I agree we should spend more money, but I don't think the
:53:46. > :53:50.Labour Party's plan, bearing in mind the whole roll call me of this
:53:51. > :53:52.country, makes any practical sense. And we should be recognising the
:53:53. > :53:56.great achievements of the north-east, indeed the wider
:53:57. > :54:01.northern part of our country. That's a good thing. Encouraging people not
:54:02. > :54:04.going on like that. We have had years of austerity, which means that
:54:05. > :54:09.most people are worse off than they were ten years ago. We need
:54:10. > :54:16.investment to get growth so that investment in infrastructure to give
:54:17. > :54:21.us the growth so that we have jobs. Borrowing to invest a sensible. We
:54:22. > :54:24.all should invest but should try to have an investment that is not just
:54:25. > :54:28.investment by government. It has to be investment also by the private
:54:29. > :54:31.sector, and the north-east has been very successful in recent years in
:54:32. > :54:34.raising them and investment it is from the private sector.
:54:35. > :54:37.Now as Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit on Wednesday,
:54:38. > :54:39.a survey of North East businesses this weekend suggests
:54:40. > :54:43.many are concerned about what the future will hold.
:54:44. > :54:47.The North East of England Chamber of Commerce questioned its members
:54:48. > :54:49.over the last month and released the results to the BBC.
:54:50. > :54:52.More on that now - and the rest of the week's
:54:53. > :55:00.Asked what impact they think the UK leaving the European Union will
:55:01. > :55:05.have on exports, 59 Northeast companies, 40% of those who
:55:06. > :55:08.replied to the survey, said it would make things worse.
:55:09. > :55:14.Half also thought young people's job prospects will also suffer.
:55:15. > :55:16.Ross Smith from the Chamber gave his reaction.
:55:17. > :55:18.Overall, this shows that government has not
:55:19. > :55:20.convinced businesses in the north-east yet that they can
:55:21. > :55:25.It does not mean it cannot be done, but they will have to negotiate very
:55:26. > :55:27.hard to get the best possible deal and then
:55:28. > :55:29.implement it effectively so that it
:55:30. > :55:33.Sunderland is one of ten places in the UK to become
:55:34. > :55:38.It will get over ?840,000 to restore all buildings.
:55:39. > :55:40.Appleby in Cumbria will also receive cash.
:55:41. > :55:43.Wansbeck MP Ian Lavery apologised for a breach in Commons
:55:44. > :55:56.He failed to register that his former employer, the NUM, held a
:55:57. > :55:59.And Northumberland Council has been told
:56:00. > :56:05.to replace 90 trees chopped down in Morpork.
:56:06. > :56:16.Les Stocker Road in business survey on Brexit. It is one survey,
:56:17. > :56:19.admittedly, but on balance businesses so exports and the common
:56:20. > :56:24.worsening after Brexit. That has to be worrying. It is realistic to the
:56:25. > :56:29.extent that people are concerned about what will happen. It's no
:56:30. > :56:33.secret of the fact that I wish in many ways people have been a
:56:34. > :56:38.different decision last year. But they made the decision they did an
:56:39. > :56:42.government is following it now. And the situation is that businesses and
:56:43. > :56:45.others are nervous about the future. I think our legislators have to be
:56:46. > :56:48.nervous about the future, but at the same time they have to find
:56:49. > :56:53.solutions that can give confidence like to people in business, back to
:56:54. > :56:57.people like the Chamber of Commerce. That will be a great challenge but
:56:58. > :57:01.it is something we are facing as a result of the decision. Business
:57:02. > :57:05.might want to see a change of direction. Pessimism might be based
:57:06. > :57:10.on the kind of Brexit Prime Minister is pursuing. We don't know what sort
:57:11. > :57:14.of Brexit we're going to get. She has made it clear she is going to
:57:15. > :57:18.prioritise immigration, for instance, over access to the single
:57:19. > :57:25.market, and she is prepared to do no deal rather than a bad deal. I guess
:57:26. > :57:28.that is what might be influencing. I don't think it is going to work like
:57:29. > :57:34.that. As far as I'm concerned, there will be a number of baskets of
:57:35. > :57:38.things, all very important. Security is something I'm interested in, how
:57:39. > :57:42.we continue close religion ships within Europe. Trade is another
:57:43. > :57:47.matter immigration and movement of people is something clearly dictated
:57:48. > :57:50.and what people said at the time. and what people said at the time.
:57:51. > :57:57.Week to get that into some sort of order. It will be conjugated, no
:57:58. > :58:01.doubt. I hope we will be able to resolve it the best way we can to
:58:02. > :58:03.get a good result here, including for these businesses that are
:58:04. > :58:10.undoubtedly liked all of us are at this stage are little nervous. Chi
:58:11. > :58:18.Onwura, businesses were nervous about Brexit. We have not moved on
:58:19. > :58:22.yet, it is still in that context, isn't it? Orders concerning about
:58:23. > :58:29.this report is it shows that there is less confidence now following
:58:30. > :58:33.Brexit, even though some of the economic news since Brexit has been
:58:34. > :58:40.trailed as being better than expected. I think the simple reason
:58:41. > :58:45.that is that the government is showing total lack of leadership. I
:58:46. > :58:49.was not in favour of Brexit, but now that we have, now that it is
:58:50. > :58:54.happening, we have to show leadership. She has shown a clear
:58:55. > :58:59.direction of travel. You may not agree, but it is clear. It is
:59:00. > :59:03.leadership off a cliff. No deal is better than a bad deal? Without even
:59:04. > :59:07.doing the analysis of what the impact of no deal would be. There is
:59:08. > :59:11.no understanding of what the impact of no deal is. Of course businesses
:59:12. > :59:18.are uncertain. It is only big companies like Nissan to get the
:59:19. > :59:22.special deals. We have not started the negotiations. We do not know
:59:23. > :59:24.what will be offered to us and what we will have to go for in the end.
:59:25. > :59:29.Talking about clarity, I think it Talking about clarity, I think it
:59:30. > :59:31.would be nonsensical to suggest that we're not clear but for instance the
:59:32. > :59:37.Labour Party is. I think there is a Labour Party is. I think there is a
:59:38. > :59:41.lack of clarity here in certain areas because we have not started
:59:42. > :59:43.this negotiation. A lot of people would say that the Labour Party has
:59:44. > :59:49.not achieved a great deal in this process. It hasn't got the
:59:50. > :59:52.government to roll back on anything. The government has shown a total
:59:53. > :59:59.lack of willingness to listen. A total lack of understanding or
:00:00. > :00:06.analysis. But let's be clear, we are very clear about the sort of economy
:00:07. > :00:10.we want, we want a high skills, high wage economy with access to the
:00:11. > :00:15.single market. The Conservative Party, their idea for a no deal
:00:16. > :00:24.of tax haven. That is changing our of tax haven. That is changing our
:00:25. > :00:29.economic model. There will not be a no deal situation. We will get a
:00:30. > :00:33.deal, and that deal is going to be hard fought for, but it has to be as
:00:34. > :00:38.good as we can get. Do you think Boris and David have the skills, the
:00:39. > :00:43.negotiating skills? I wouldn't dream of commenting on my colleagues in
:00:44. > :00:48.that sense. 27 nations have to agree to this. Not only that but also the
:00:49. > :00:53.European Parliament that I have just left, they have to agree a deal at
:00:54. > :00:57.the end of the day. Perhaps wanting would say, and this applies not just
:00:58. > :01:05.my but others are other parties, they have to learn the realism of
:01:06. > :01:09.what we have here, and how these decisions have to be taken and
:01:10. > :01:13.endorsed. That in itself is a diplomatic challenge of quite a high
:01:14. > :01:18.order. We will get through it unsure. We just have to be realistic
:01:19. > :01:23.about the circumstances. One reason for the lack of confidence is all
:01:24. > :01:28.the European Union nationals in the north-east working in universities
:01:29. > :01:32.and the NHS in companies who do not know what is happening. We welcome
:01:33. > :01:34.them and we need them and we will always keep them, I'm sure. The fact
:01:35. > :01:36.we not guaranteeing their rights. And that's about it
:01:37. > :01:38.from us for this week. On the BBC's Look North Facebook
:01:39. > :01:40.account next week - we'll be talking to young people
:01:41. > :01:45.in Sunderland about how we don't have any more time! Thank
:01:46. > :01:52.you both for coming in, Andrew, back to you.
:01:53. > :02:09.So yesterday the European Union celebrated its 60th birthday
:02:10. > :02:11.at a party in Rome, the city where the founding document
:02:12. > :02:16.Leaders of 27 EU countries were there to mark the occasion -
:02:17. > :02:17.overshadowing it, though, the continued terrorist threat,
:02:18. > :02:21.And on Wednesday Theresa May, who wasn't in Rome yesterday,
:02:22. > :02:22.will trigger Article 50, formally starting
:02:23. > :02:26.The President of the European Council, Donald Tusk,
:02:27. > :02:31.made an appeal for unity at the gathering.
:02:32. > :02:36.Today in Rome, we are renewing the unique alliance of free nations
:02:37. > :02:45.that was initiated 60 years ago by our great predecessors.
:02:46. > :02:47.At that time, they did not discuss multiple speeds,
:02:48. > :02:52.they did not devise exits, but despite all the tragic
:02:53. > :02:54.circumstances of the recent history they placed all their faith
:02:55. > :03:14.Mr Tusk, he is Polish, the man that has the Council of ministers, and on
:03:15. > :03:17.that council where every member of the EU sits he is an important
:03:18. > :03:21.figure in what is now about to happen. We have got to negotiate our
:03:22. > :03:28.divorce terms, we've got to agree a new free trade deal, new
:03:29. > :03:31.crime-fighting arrangements, we've got to repatriate 50 international
:03:32. > :03:37.trade agreements, and all of that has to be ratified within two years,
:03:38. > :03:43.by 27 other countries. Can that really happen?! I don't think it is
:03:44. > :03:47.inconceivable because it is in the interests of those 27 EU member
:03:48. > :03:51.states to try and negotiate a deal that we can all live with, because
:03:52. > :03:56.that would be preferable to Britain crashing out within two years. But I
:03:57. > :03:59.think this is why Labour's position is becoming increasingly incoherent.
:04:00. > :04:04.Keir Starmer has briefed today that he will be making a speech tomorrow
:04:05. > :04:08.setting out six conditions which he wants the deal to meet, otherwise
:04:09. > :04:26.Labour won't vote for it, but if Labour doesn't vote for it that
:04:27. > :04:29.doesn't mean we will be able to negotiate an extension, that would
:04:30. > :04:32.be incredibly difficult and require the consent of each of the 27 member
:04:33. > :04:35.states, so if Labour votes against it we will just crash out, it is
:04:36. > :04:37.effectively Labour saying no deal is better than a poor deal, which is
:04:38. > :04:40.not supposed to be their position. Labour's position may be incoherent
:04:41. > :04:42.but I was not asking about their position, I was asking about the
:04:43. > :04:45.Government's position. The man heading the Badila said he wants it
:04:46. > :04:47.ready by October next year so that it can go through the ratification
:04:48. > :04:50.process, people looking at this would think it is Mission:
:04:51. > :04:56.Impossible. It seems impossible to me to be done in that time. The fact
:04:57. > :05:01.that it is 27 countries, the whole of the European Parliament as well,
:05:02. > :05:05.there will be too many people throbbing spanners in the works and
:05:06. > :05:10.quite rightly. We have embarked on something that is truly terrible and
:05:11. > :05:16.disastrous, and the imagery we can have of those 27 countries
:05:17. > :05:19.celebrating together 60 years of the most extraordinary successful
:05:20. > :05:25.movement for peace, for shared European values, and others not
:05:26. > :05:29.there... We were not there at the start either, and we are not there
:05:30. > :05:36.now! And we have been bad partners while we were inside, but now that
:05:37. > :05:42.we are leaving... They did not look like it was a birthday party to me!
:05:43. > :05:48.I think it was, there was a sense of renewal, Europe exists as a place
:05:49. > :05:50.envied in the world for its values, for its peacefulness, that is why
:05:51. > :05:57.people flocked to its borders, that is why they come here. Can you look
:05:58. > :06:02.at the agenda that faces the UK Government and EU 27, is it not
:06:03. > :06:08.possible, in fact even likely, that as the process comes to an end they
:06:09. > :06:13.will have to agree on a number of areas of transitional arrangements?
:06:14. > :06:17.I think they will and they will have to agree that soon, I would not be
:06:18. > :06:20.surprised if sometime soon there is an understanding is not a formal
:06:21. > :06:25.decision that this is a process that will extend over something closer to
:06:26. > :06:28.buy or seven than two years. On Wednesday article 50 will be filed
:06:29. > :06:32.and there will be lots of excitement and hubbub but nothing concrete can
:06:33. > :06:36.happen for a while. Elections in France in May, elections in Germany
:06:37. > :06:49.which could really result in a change of Government... That is the
:06:50. > :06:51.big change, Mrs Merkel might not be there by October. And who foresaw
:06:52. > :06:54.that a few months ago? So you might be into 28 Dean before you are into
:06:55. > :06:56.the substantive discussions about how much market access or regulatory
:06:57. > :07:00.observance. I cannot see it being completed in two years. I could see,
:07:01. > :07:04.if negotiations are not too acrimonious, that transitional
:07:05. > :07:07.agreement taking place. Let's look at the timetable again. The council
:07:08. > :07:11.doesn't meet until the end of April, it meets in the middle of the French
:07:12. > :07:14.elections, the first round will have taken place, they will need a second
:07:15. > :07:21.round so not much can happen. President Hollande will be
:07:22. > :07:26.representing France, then the new French government, if it is Marine
:07:27. > :07:30.le Pen all bets are off, but even if it is Mr Mac run, he does not have a
:07:31. > :07:34.party, he will not have a majority, the French will take a long while to
:07:35. > :07:38.sort out themselves. Then it is summer, we are off to the Cote
:07:39. > :07:42.d'Azur, particularly the Bolivian elite, then we come back from that
:07:43. > :07:48.and the Germans are in an election, it may be very messy, Mrs Merkel no
:07:49. > :08:00.longer a shoo-in, it could be Mr Schultz, he may have to try to form
:08:01. > :08:04.a difficult green red coalition, that would take a while. Before you
:08:05. > :08:06.know it, it is Guy Fawkes' Day and no substance has taken place, yet we
:08:07. > :08:10.are then less than a year before this has to be decided. It is a big
:08:11. > :08:12.task and I'm sure Jana is right that there will be transitional
:08:13. > :08:16.arrangements and not everything will be concluded in that two year
:08:17. > :08:19.timetable, but in some respects what you have described helps those of us
:08:20. > :08:23.on the Eurosceptic site because it means they cannot really be a
:08:24. > :08:27.meaningful parliamentary vote on the terms of the deal because nothing is
:08:28. > :08:31.going to be agreed quickly enough for them to be able to go back and
:08:32. > :08:34.agree something else if Parliament rejects it, so when the Government
:08:35. > :08:38.eventually have something ready to bring before Parliament it will be a
:08:39. > :08:43.take it or leave it boat. How extraordinary that people who have
:08:44. > :08:47.campaigned. Indeed give us our country back and say, isn't it
:08:48. > :08:51.wonderful, we won't have a meaningful boat for our
:08:52. > :08:55.parliamentarians of the most important... We don't know what the
:08:56. > :08:59.negotiation, the package is, day by day we see more and more complicated
:09:00. > :09:02.areas nobody ever thought about, nobody mentioned during the
:09:03. > :09:08.campaign, all of which has to be resolved and the European Council
:09:09. > :09:14.and the negotiators say nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
:09:15. > :09:19.You lead us into a catastrophe. There will be plenty of opportunity
:09:20. > :09:22.for Parliament to have its say following the introduction of the
:09:23. > :09:26.Great Repeal Bill, it is not as if there will be no Parliamentary time
:09:27. > :09:29.devoted. The final package is what counts. We have two years to blog
:09:30. > :09:41.about this! There was a big Proview -- pro-EU
:09:42. > :09:46.march yesterday... I was there! Polly Toynbee was there, down to
:09:47. > :09:51.Parliament Square, lots of people there marching in favour of the
:09:52. > :09:55.European Union. We can see the EU flags there on flags, lots of
:09:56. > :10:04.national flags as well, the British one. Polly, is it the aim of people
:10:05. > :10:10.like you still to stop Brexit, or to soften Brexit? I think the aim is
:10:11. > :10:15.for the best you can possibly do to limit the damage. Of course, if it
:10:16. > :10:18.happens that once people have had a chance to see how much they were
:10:19. > :10:22.lied to during the campaign and how dreadful the deal is likely to be,
:10:23. > :10:26.if it happens that enough people in the population have changed their
:10:27. > :10:32.minds, then maybe... There is no sign up yet. But we have not even
:10:33. > :10:35.begun, people have not begun to confront what it is going to mean.
:10:36. > :10:41.Wait and see. I think it is just being as close as we can. Is that
:10:42. > :10:46.credible, do you think, to stop it or to ameliorate it in terms of the
:10:47. > :10:50.Remainers? I think it is far more credible to try and stop it but even
:10:51. > :10:54.then the scope is limited. It is fairly apparent Theresa May's
:10:55. > :11:12.interpretation of the referendum is the country wants an end to free
:11:13. > :11:16.movement, there is probably no way of doing that inside the single
:11:17. > :11:19.market. She also wants external trade deals, no way of doing that
:11:20. > :11:21.outside the customs unit, said the only night you can depend if you are
:11:22. > :11:24.pro-European is, let's not leave without any trade pact, at least
:11:25. > :11:26.let's meet Canada and have a formalised trade agreement. The idea
:11:27. > :11:29.of ace -- of a very soft exit is gone now because the public really
:11:30. > :11:31.did want an end to free movement and the Government really does want
:11:32. > :11:38.external trade deals. It depends what changes in Europe. I think the
:11:39. > :11:43.momentum behind the Remoaning movement will move away. One of the
:11:44. > :11:47.banners I saw being held up yesterday by a young boy on the news
:11:48. > :11:51.was, don't put my daddy on a boat. It gets a lot of its moral force
:11:52. > :11:57.from the uncertainty surrounding the fate of EU nationals here and our
:11:58. > :12:01.resident in the remainder of the EU and I think David Lidington is right
:12:02. > :12:04.that it will be concluded quite quickly once negotiations start and
:12:05. > :12:08.that will take a lot of the heat and momentum out of the remaining
:12:09. > :12:14.movement. Why didn't Theresa May allow that amendment that said, we
:12:15. > :12:17.will do that, as an act of generosity, we will say, of course
:12:18. > :12:22.those European citizens here are welcome to stay? It would have been
:12:23. > :12:26.such a good opening move in the negotiations, instead of which she
:12:27. > :12:31.blocked it. It does not augur well. I have interviewed many Tories about
:12:32. > :12:38.this and put that point to them but they often say the Prime minister's
:12:39. > :12:42.job is to look after UK citizen in the EU... Bargaining chips, I think
:12:43. > :12:46.you have to be generous and you have to wish you people in Spain and
:12:47. > :12:49.everywhere else where there are British citizens would have
:12:50. > :12:52.responded. The British Government did try and raise that with their EU
:12:53. > :12:56.counterparts and were told, we cannot begin to talk about that
:12:57. > :13:01.until article 50 has been triggered. Next week we will be able to talk
:13:02. > :13:05.about it. How generous it would have been, we would have started on a
:13:06. > :13:09.better note. Didn't happen, we will see what happens next with EU
:13:10. > :13:14.citizens. That is it for today, the Daily Politics will be back tomorrow
:13:15. > :13:16.at midday and every day next week on BBC Two as always.
:13:17. > :13:18.And there's also a Question Time special live tomorrow
:13:19. > :13:20.night from Birmingham - with guests including
:13:21. > :13:22.the Brexit Secretary David Davis, Labour's Keir Starmer,
:13:23. > :13:25.former Ukip leader Nigel Farage and the SNP's Alex Salmond -
:13:26. > :13:30.I'll be back next week at 11am here on BBC One.
:13:31. > :13:34.Until then, remember - if it's Sunday, it's