:00:36. > :00:40.Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:43.New CCTV images are released showing suicide bomber, Salman Abedi,
:00:44. > :00:47.on the night he attacked Manchester Arena, killing 22 people.
:00:48. > :00:49.Are the politicians and the security services doing
:00:50. > :00:55.Theresa May says Britain needs to be "stronger and more resolute"
:00:56. > :00:58.in confronting extremist views, as she outlines plans
:00:59. > :01:02.for a new Commission to counter extremism.
:01:03. > :01:06.We'll be talking to the Security Minister.
:01:07. > :01:08.Jeremy Corbyn says a Labour government would recruit 1,000
:01:09. > :01:16.Here: and intelligence agencies.
:01:17. > :01:18.Seven people from the North East died
:01:19. > :01:21.in the Manchester bombing - how do we prevent more loss of life?
:01:22. > :01:22.Which party has the best plan for our roads and railways?
:01:23. > :01:25.supporters. In London, we look at what the Conservatives are offering
:01:26. > :01:32.the capital, having voted Remain. To help guide me through this
:01:33. > :01:35.morning, I'm joined by Steve Richards, Julia
:01:36. > :01:36.Hartley-Brewer and Tim Marshall. They'll be sharing their thoughts
:01:37. > :01:41.on Twitter and you can join So, with a week and a half to go,
:01:42. > :01:49.the election campaign And some recent polls
:01:50. > :01:52.suggest the race is just We'll be taking a closer look
:01:53. > :01:58.at that in just a moment but, first, here are some of the key events over
:01:59. > :02:02.the next 10 days or so: Tonight at 6pm will see the third
:02:03. > :02:07.of the party leader interviews. This time it's the SNP's
:02:08. > :02:09.Nicola Sturgeon facing questions While many across the UK will be
:02:10. > :02:15.enjoying tomorrow's bank holiday, there will be no break
:02:16. > :02:17.in campaigning for And in the evening it will be
:02:18. > :02:23.the turn of Ukip's Paul Nuttall On Tuesday the SNP
:02:24. > :02:27.publish their manifesto - the last of the major parties to do
:02:28. > :02:30.so - after last week's Then on Wednesday, the BBC's
:02:31. > :02:33.Election Debate will see representatives from the seven main
:02:34. > :02:37.parties debate in front On Thursday, Lib Dem leader Tim
:02:38. > :02:46.Farron will have his interview... Before Friday's Question Time
:02:47. > :02:48.special with Theresa May They won't debate each other,
:02:49. > :02:51.but will take questions consecutively from members
:02:52. > :02:53.of the audience. The final week of campaigning
:02:54. > :02:56.is a short one, with politicians cramming in three days
:02:57. > :03:04.of door-knocking before voters go We'll have an exit poll once
:03:05. > :03:10.voting has ended at 10pm, with the result expected early
:03:11. > :03:13.in the morning of June 9th. Well, it's Sunday, and that always
:03:14. > :03:16.means a spate of new opinion And they make for fascinating,
:03:17. > :03:19.if a tad confusing, reading. There are five new opinion
:03:20. > :03:21.polls today, which have the Conservative lead
:03:22. > :03:23.over Labour anywhere from six points to 14 points.
:03:24. > :03:26.So, what's going on? Professor John Curtice
:03:27. > :03:29.is the expert we always turn to at times like this,
:03:30. > :03:42.and he joins me from Glasgow. Take us through these polls. They
:03:43. > :03:47.seem to be all over the place? They may seem to be but there is a very
:03:48. > :03:51.consistent key message. Four of these five polls, if you compare
:03:52. > :03:57.them with what they were saying before the Conservative manifesto
:03:58. > :04:02.launch on the 18th, four say the Conservatives are down by two
:04:03. > :04:08.points. Four of them say the Labour vote is up by two points. A clear
:04:09. > :04:13.consistent message. The Conservative lead has narrowed. Why does this
:04:14. > :04:16.matter? It matters because we are now in a position where the leads
:04:17. > :04:22.are such that the Conservatives can no longer be sure of getting the
:04:23. > :04:25.landslide majority they want. Some posters suggesting they may be in
:04:26. > :04:36.trouble and it is going to get rather close. Others suggested is
:04:37. > :04:40.further apart. There are two major sources of... The Poles agree that
:04:41. > :04:46.young voters will vote Labour if they vote. Older voters will vote
:04:47. > :04:49.for the Conservatives. How many of those younger voters will turn out
:04:50. > :04:53.to vote? The second thing is whether the evidence in the opinion polls
:04:54. > :04:57.that the Conservatives are advancing more in the North of England and the
:04:58. > :05:02.Midlands is realised that the ballot box? If it is not realised, the
:05:03. > :05:05.Tories chances of getting a landslide look remote. If it is,
:05:06. > :05:12.they could still well indeed get a majority more than 80%. The
:05:13. > :05:17.Conservatives have lost some ground depending on which opinion poll you
:05:18. > :05:23.look at. What about the Labour Party? It is gaining ground. It has
:05:24. > :05:29.been gaining ground ever since week one. They started on 26, they now
:05:30. > :05:32.average 35. There were a lot of people out there at the beginning of
:05:33. > :05:36.the campaign who were saying, I usually vote Labour but the truth is
:05:37. > :05:40.I'm not sure about Jeremy Corbyn. They seem to have decided the Labour
:05:41. > :05:47.manifesto wasn't so bad. They have looked at Theresa May and have said,
:05:48. > :05:51.we will stick with Labour. Labour have managed to draw back into the
:05:52. > :05:55.fold some of their traditional voters who were disenchanted,
:05:56. > :05:59.together with, crucially, some of those younger voters who have never
:06:00. > :06:04.voted before, who have always been a particular target for Jeremy Corbyn.
:06:05. > :06:07.What is your reaction to previous opinion polls and elections weather
:06:08. > :06:13.has been a feeling that some of the Labour support has been overstated?
:06:14. > :06:16.This be a worry this time? That is one of the uncertainties that faces
:06:17. > :06:21.the opinion polls and the rest of us. We had a conference on Friday at
:06:22. > :06:27.which it was carefully explained that pollsters have been trying to
:06:28. > :06:31.correct the errors that resulted in an overestimation of Labour support
:06:32. > :06:34.a couple of years ago, particularly among younger voters. You shouldn't
:06:35. > :06:38.assume the opinion polls will be wrong this time because they were
:06:39. > :06:47.wrong the last time. We want in truth know whether or not the polls
:06:48. > :06:51.have got it right. Even if they are wrong in terms of the level, they
:06:52. > :06:55.are not wrong in terms of the trend. The trends have been dramatic so
:06:56. > :07:02.far. A big rise in Tory support early on at the expense of Ukip. And
:07:03. > :07:05.subsequently, a remarkable rise in Labour support, albeit from a low
:07:06. > :07:09.initial baseline. This election has already seen quite a lot of
:07:10. > :07:13.movement. We shouldn't rule out the possibility there will be yet more
:07:14. > :07:23.in the ten days to come. That is his analysis. Let's talk to
:07:24. > :07:28.the panel. Julia, how concerned should Conservative headquarters be
:07:29. > :07:32.at this particular point at what looks like an apparent surge by
:07:33. > :07:37.Labour? Depends if you want a massive landslide majority or might
:07:38. > :07:41.not. I assume the Tory party do. Whether anybody thinks that is a
:07:42. > :07:46.good idea is a different matter. Undoubtedly the manifesto league was
:07:47. > :07:53.a total disaster. Social care policy and the U-turn. Lots of stuff in the
:07:54. > :07:57.Labour manifesto was very appealing. The tactic from Sir Lynton Crosby
:07:58. > :08:02.was clear. It is all about Theresa May. Don't even mention the
:08:03. > :08:06.candidate or the party. The Labour Party, the candidates are on the
:08:07. > :08:11.moderate side are saying, don't mention Jeremy Corbyn. This has been
:08:12. > :08:16.a battle between two big people. The more we have seen of Theresa May,
:08:17. > :08:20.she has gone down. The more we have seen of Jeremy Corbyn, he has gone
:08:21. > :08:24.up. If you make it about strong and stable leadership and then you do
:08:25. > :08:28.something like a massive unprecedented U-turn on a key policy
:08:29. > :08:32.like social care, the knock is even greater. Do you think that is the
:08:33. > :08:36.reason for the change in the opinion polls or is Labour gaining some
:08:37. > :08:39.momentum? I think it is part of the reason. You can understand why the
:08:40. > :08:43.focus was on her at the beginning because her personal ratings were
:08:44. > :08:47.stratospheric. What is interesting is all successful leaders basically
:08:48. > :08:53.cast a spell over voters in the media. None of them are titans. All
:08:54. > :08:58.of them are flawed. It is a question of when the spell is broken. This is
:08:59. > :09:02.a first for a leader's spell to be broken during an election campaign.
:09:03. > :09:05.That was a moment of high significance. The fact the Labour
:09:06. > :09:10.Party campaign is more robust than many thought it would be is the
:09:11. > :09:14.other factor. I think it is the combination of the two, that the
:09:15. > :09:20.trend, as Professor John Curtis said, the trend has been this
:09:21. > :09:24.narrow. There has not been much campaigning. Local campaigning
:09:25. > :09:28.resumed on Thursday, national campaigning on Friday. Do you think,
:09:29. > :09:31.Tim Marshall, that the opinion polls are reflecting what happened in
:09:32. > :09:36.Manchester and people's thoughts about which party will keep them
:09:37. > :09:40.safe? No, I think that will come next week. I think it is too soon
:09:41. > :09:47.for that. It was quite understandable from the V -- the
:09:48. > :09:52.very beginning for Lynton Crosby to frame the campaign in terms of
:09:53. > :09:59.Theresa May and Brexit. The electorate can have its own view.
:10:00. > :10:05.You always have to go back to Clinton's it's the economy stupid
:10:06. > :10:09.for most of the electorate. It is framed in your electricity bill. It
:10:10. > :10:14.is framed in your jobs. Both manifestos have got more holes in
:10:15. > :10:18.them than Swiss cheese. It comes down to which manifesto you believe.
:10:19. > :10:22.The Labour manifesto makes more promises about things you care about
:10:23. > :10:28.like your electricity bill. Interesting, but in the end despite
:10:29. > :10:32.while we thought would be a Brexit election, it has been a lot about
:10:33. > :10:35.public services. It always comes down to bread-and-butter issues. I
:10:36. > :10:40.don't think we have quite seen how the terrorist you has played out. We
:10:41. > :10:44.had the Westminster attack only a couple of months ago. That was
:10:45. > :10:48.already factored in in terms of who you trust and who you don't trust.
:10:49. > :10:53.The IRA stuff from Jeremy Corbyn is already factored in. People actually
:10:54. > :10:55.care about how ordinary government policies affect their lives. Thank
:10:56. > :10:57.you very much. The election campaign was,
:10:58. > :10:59.of course, put on hold following the terrorist
:11:00. > :11:01.attack in Manchester But now that campaigning has
:11:02. > :11:04.resumed, it's hardly surprising that security
:11:05. > :11:06.is now a primary concern. The Labour Party has announced it
:11:07. > :11:20.would recruit 1,000 more Jeremy Corbyn, speaking on ITV at
:11:21. > :11:25.short while ago, says previous cuts have undermined security.
:11:26. > :11:29.It seems that the cuts in police numbers have led to some very
:11:30. > :11:36.dangerous situation is emerging. It is also a question of a community
:11:37. > :11:39.response as well. So that where, an imam, for example, lets the police
:11:40. > :11:43.he is concerned about a muddy, I would hope they would act. And I
:11:44. > :11:44.would hope we have -- and I would hope they would have the resources
:11:45. > :11:46.to act as well. Joining me now from Leeds
:11:47. > :11:56.is the Shadow Justice Good morning. You have announced a
:11:57. > :11:59.thousand more Security and Intelligence agency staff. That is
:12:00. > :12:03.in line with what the government has already announced and the Shadow
:12:04. > :12:06.Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, has said you would not be spending any
:12:07. > :12:11.more money. It doesn't amount to much, does it? That is just one of
:12:12. > :12:18.the parts of our pledge card on the safer communities. There is also
:12:19. > :12:22.10,000 extra police, because the Conservatives cut the police by
:12:23. > :12:26.20,000. That 10,000 extra police would mean in -- and extra police
:12:27. > :12:32.officer in each neighbourhood. There are 3000 extra put -- prison
:12:33. > :12:39.officers. Prison staff has been cut by 6000. That is a third. It is not
:12:40. > :12:44.helping keep communities safer. We are pledging 3000 extra
:12:45. > :12:53.firefighters. Also, a thousand extra security staff and 500 extra border
:12:54. > :12:57.guards. There have been 13 areas identified where our borders are not
:12:58. > :13:02.as secure as they should be. That is the list of numbers you have given.
:13:03. > :13:05.If we concentrate on the security services, because it was Jeremy
:13:06. > :13:10.Corbyn he said there will be more police on the streets under Labour.
:13:11. > :13:16.If the security sources need more resources they should get them. Why
:13:17. > :13:20.aren't you giving them more? We are committing to a thousand more
:13:21. > :13:27.police. The Godinet is doing that as well. You are not committing
:13:28. > :13:31.anything more. The government has not delivered on that promise. We
:13:32. > :13:35.will deliver on that promise is -- promise. What Jeremy has made very
:13:36. > :13:40.clear is that you can't do security on the cheap. Austerity has to stop
:13:41. > :13:46.at the police station door, and at the hospital door. But we will be
:13:47. > :13:49.giving the resources required to keep our communities safer. So you
:13:50. > :13:56.will give them the resources and more powers? Well, the police need
:13:57. > :13:59.to be empowered. But when you listen to what the Police Federation are
:14:00. > :14:07.saying, they have been speaking out for a long time about the danger
:14:08. > :14:12.caused by police cuts. And I'm talking not only about terrorism,
:14:13. > :14:16.not only about acts of extreme violence, but anything from
:14:17. > :14:22.anti-social behaviour to burglary. Use it more powers. What sort of
:14:23. > :14:27.powers are you thinking of giving the security services? We need to
:14:28. > :14:29.listen to them. That is not a power. We need to listen to the
:14:30. > :14:36.intelligence community and the security service, to the army and
:14:37. > :14:39.the police, about what they think and how they think our communities
:14:40. > :14:44.could be made safe. One thing is clear. Cutting the number of police
:14:45. > :14:50.by 20,000 makes our community is less safe, not more safe. You said
:14:51. > :14:54.you will listen to the security services. Can voters be reassured
:14:55. > :14:59.and guaranteed that Jeremy Corbyn will listen to the security services
:15:00. > :15:04.and the police in terms of more powers if that is what they want?
:15:05. > :15:08.Until now he has spent his whole political career voting against
:15:09. > :15:13.measures designed to tackle home-grown and international
:15:14. > :15:17.terrorism. Jeremy Corbyn's speech on safer communities earlier this week
:15:18. > :15:22.made clear he is listening to the security services. So he would grant
:15:23. > :15:30.those new powers. He voted against the terrorism Act in 2000, into
:15:31. > :15:34.thousands and six. In 2011. And in 2014, the data retention and
:15:35. > :15:39.investigatory Powers act. Which new powers will he be happy to enact?
:15:40. > :15:44.Just to say, Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and
:15:45. > :15:48.many Conservative MPs, voted against legislation where they thought it
:15:49. > :15:51.would be ill-advised, ineffective or actually counter-productive. It is a
:15:52. > :15:58.very complex situation. What we don't want to do is introduce
:15:59. > :16:01.hastily prepared laws with one eye to the newspaper headlines, which
:16:02. > :16:05.can act as recruiting sergeants for terrorism. And actually, when I said
:16:06. > :16:08.earlier that Jeremy Corbyn made clear in his speech this week that
:16:09. > :16:12.he has been listening to the security services, what he said
:16:13. > :16:17.about the international situation has also been said by the former
:16:18. > :16:20.head of MI5, Stella Rimington, and her predecessor. As well as
:16:21. > :16:26.president of back -- President Barack Obama.
:16:27. > :16:32.You say he will give the police and security services the resources and
:16:33. > :16:36.powers they need. If we look back at some of the legislation Jeremy
:16:37. > :16:46.Corbyn and others voted against in 2000, it gave the Secretary of State
:16:47. > :16:52.the -- new powers... Does Jeremy Corbyn still think that is a bad
:16:53. > :16:57.idea? Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and
:16:58. > :17:00.others... I know you want to bracket it with Conservatives but I'm
:17:01. > :17:04.interested in what Jeremy Corbyn will do when he says we are going to
:17:05. > :17:08.be smarter about fighting terrorism. If he's not prepared to vote in
:17:09. > :17:13.favour of those sorts of measures, or trying to impose restrictions on
:17:14. > :17:20.suspects, I'm trying to find out what he will do. It is a complex
:17:21. > :17:24.situation. With this legislation the devil is often in the detail. If it
:17:25. > :17:27.was a simple and stopping terrorism by voting a piece of legislation
:17:28. > :17:35.through Parliament, it would have been stopped a long time ago. Sadly
:17:36. > :17:38.there are no easy answers, and that is recognised by Barack Obama,
:17:39. > :17:43.Stella Rimington, the head of the MI5, by David Davis and other
:17:44. > :17:47.Conservative MPs. What is clear, as Jeremy made clear in his speech this
:17:48. > :17:52.week, is the way things are being done currently is not working. We
:17:53. > :17:56.have got to be tough on terrorism and the unforgivable acts of murder,
:17:57. > :18:02.but also tough on the causes of terrorism as well. The sad truth is
:18:03. > :18:14.there are no easy answers. If there were, the problem would have been
:18:15. > :18:16.solved a long time ago. If you more security and terrorism officers but
:18:17. > :18:19.your leader is still uncomfortable with giving them the powers they
:18:20. > :18:22.need to do their jobs because it is complicated legislation, they will
:18:23. > :18:30.want to know how you are going to do it. At another stop the War rally in
:18:31. > :18:40.2014, Jeremy Corbyn said the murder of a charity worker was jingoism. At
:18:41. > :18:45.the beginning of that speech he mentioned the importance of the
:18:46. > :18:49.one-minute silence for the memory of Alan Henning who was murdered. What
:18:50. > :18:53.he has also made clear is responsibility for acts of terrorism
:18:54. > :19:01.and murder lies with the murder, and something that's really disappointed
:19:02. > :19:05.me is that the Prime Minister said the other day that in Jeremy
:19:06. > :19:19.Corbyn's speech on this on Monday, he said... Whether she agrees with
:19:20. > :19:23.him on his politics, she knows he didn't say that in his speech, but
:19:24. > :19:26.what troubles me is you have got a Prime Minister who must have sat
:19:27. > :19:30.down with her advisers earlier that day and said, well I do know he
:19:31. > :19:34.didn't say that but if we say he did we might win some votes. I think
:19:35. > :19:38.that is shameful and it shows Theresa May cannot be trusted. These
:19:39. > :19:40.issues should transcend party politics. We need to pull together
:19:41. > :19:44.on this issue. Thank you very much. Well, the Conservatives have
:19:45. > :19:47.promised a new statutory commission The party says it will identify
:19:48. > :19:49.extremism, including the "non-violent" kind,
:19:50. > :19:52.and help communities stand up to it. Also this morning,
:19:53. > :19:54.the Security Minister, Ben Wallace, has attacked internet giants
:19:55. > :19:56.for failing to tackle terror online, and accused them
:19:57. > :20:09.of being ruthless money-makers. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:20:10. > :20:13.Those comments you have made about social media companies failing in
:20:14. > :20:18.their responsibility to take down extremist material, what will you do
:20:19. > :20:22.to compel them? I think we will look at the range of options. The Germans
:20:23. > :20:27.have proposed a fine, we are not sure whether that will work, but
:20:28. > :20:33.there are range of pressures we can put onto some of these companies.
:20:34. > :20:37.Some have complied. In the article in the Sunday Telegraph today I did
:20:38. > :20:42.say it is not all of them. They are not immune to pressure. We can do
:20:43. > :20:45.internationally, and the Prime Minister urged at the G7 and
:20:46. > :20:52.international response. I think there are a range of issues. We
:20:53. > :20:56.could change the law. You mentioned the G7, and rhetoric and warm words
:20:57. > :21:00.are fine to an extent but it is action people want. If you have made
:21:01. > :21:07.these impassioned remarks in the newspapers about them failing to do
:21:08. > :21:10.the job, people want to know what powers do you have now to say to
:21:11. > :21:15.social media companies take down this material? We have an act that
:21:16. > :21:21.was recently passed. In this area we have just finished consulting on one
:21:22. > :21:27.of the areas we could use but we cannot pre-empt the consultation. We
:21:28. > :21:30.have right now officials from my department over in the United States
:21:31. > :21:35.with American officials working with CSPs because what we see is that
:21:36. > :21:42.they do respond to pressure. The best example is we think they have
:21:43. > :21:48.the technology and the capability to change the algorithms they use that
:21:49. > :21:52.maximise profit over safety. But you are relying on these companies
:21:53. > :21:55.devoting more resources to this line of work that you would like to see
:21:56. > :22:01.them do. Have you got any evidence they will do that? They said, only a
:22:02. > :22:05.few weeks ago before the election was called the Home Secretary hosted
:22:06. > :22:11.a Round Table with them. We have evidence they are trying to improve
:22:12. > :22:15.it. A few are refusing to or being difficult, and that's why the Prime
:22:16. > :22:18.Minister was right to step up not only the language she was using but
:22:19. > :22:23.to say we are not going to allow this to progress any more. People
:22:24. > :22:25.will be worried about who will make the judgment about what is
:22:26. > :22:32.unacceptable and what should be taken down. Let me show you this,
:22:33. > :22:37.which was shared widely across social media. If you read that quote
:22:38. > :22:41.you could argue it is at the same end if you like. The man in the
:22:42. > :22:46.picture is a terrorist hate preacher, the jihadist who was
:22:47. > :22:51.killed in Yemen by the Americans. Is this the sort of thing you would be
:22:52. > :22:56.demanding social media companies take down? You have to look at the
:22:57. > :23:02.context it was deployed in. I could show you some of the 270,000 pieces
:23:03. > :23:06.we have had removed since 2010 from internet sites that have been
:23:07. > :23:10.extreme. The big issue is not often the individual image, it is the way
:23:11. > :23:16.these companies set up the algorithms to link you. If you were
:23:17. > :23:20.watching that on Facebook delivered to you, perhaps you would like to
:23:21. > :23:27.look at this, because that's how they set it up. If you go onto
:23:28. > :23:36.YouTube, you can get let down the path from looking at Manchester... I
:23:37. > :23:39.understand your example, but from a practical level are you expecting
:23:40. > :23:47.media companies to take down that sort of posts if it appeared? Yes...
:23:48. > :23:51.You are? Who will make the decisions about what will radicalise young
:23:52. > :23:57.people that could lead someone down the path to let off a bomb? If I
:23:58. > :24:01.invite your viewers to look at the work the Guardian have done on
:24:02. > :24:07.Facebook guidance, to say for example it is OK to produce videos
:24:08. > :24:11.or broadcast videos of seven-year-olds being bullied as
:24:12. > :24:15.long as it wasn't accompanied by captions, I don't think you need to
:24:16. > :24:19.be an expert to say that is not acceptable. Something more worrying
:24:20. > :24:25.for you as a journalist and me as a politician, another set of guidance
:24:26. > :24:30.that says... I think this is quite menacing... That certain people
:24:31. > :24:34.don't deserve our protection. That includes journalists and politicians
:24:35. > :24:39.and people who are controversial. So I think there is more work to be
:24:40. > :24:43.done but at the end of the day it is the pathway this stuff leads to. It
:24:44. > :24:48.is more about examining how much progress you can make. The
:24:49. > :24:53.Government says there are up to 23,000 potential terrorist attackers
:24:54. > :25:04.in this country, 3000 of those posing a serious threat being
:25:05. > :25:09.monitored. That is pretty disturbing, these are big numbers.
:25:10. > :25:12.Yes, and the tragedy of Manchester shows this is not about failure, it
:25:13. > :25:16.is about the scale of the challenge we face and that is why it is
:25:17. > :25:24.important that alongside people is powers. Should you double the size
:25:25. > :25:27.of MI5 for example? We have increased year-on-year in real terms
:25:28. > :25:33.not only the money but the numbers of people in MI5. It is now 2000 we
:25:34. > :25:39.have committed to increased to... Before the attack. Before our
:25:40. > :25:42.manifesto we had recruited, we have increased the whole of government
:25:43. > :25:52.spending on counterterrorism from ?11.7 billion in 2015 up to 15.7
:25:53. > :26:00.billion. Would you expand the number of people in MI5? I have asked them
:26:01. > :26:05.on a regular basis if they have the resource if they are happy with it,
:26:06. > :26:09.and the answer comes back time and time again, yes we are. You have
:26:10. > :26:15.quite extensive powers at your disposal, the question is if you are
:26:16. > :26:22.using them. Measures were introduced in 2012 to replace control orders,
:26:23. > :26:30.but they have rarely been used. Only seven are currently in operation.
:26:31. > :26:35.Why? Because there are a whole... It is just one tool in the tool box.
:26:36. > :26:43.Other powers we use, we take away people's passports if we think they
:26:44. > :26:47.are about to travel. How many? I cannot comment, it is a sensitive
:26:48. > :26:51.issue. Plenty of people are finding their passport has been removed and
:26:52. > :26:57.at the same time we strip people of citizenship to make sure they don't
:26:58. > :27:02.come back. On top of that, because of the investment made in GCHQ, MI5
:27:03. > :27:08.and counterterrorism, we have more powers and more ability to monitor
:27:09. > :27:16.them. But are you using them enough? Only seven TPIMs are in operation.
:27:17. > :27:19.You won't give me any of the other measures at your disposal, but if
:27:20. > :27:26.they are only in single figures, that doesn't seem to compare with
:27:27. > :27:31.the numbers who are being monitored. Also, we have to strike a balance
:27:32. > :27:34.between... We have to satisfy the court so we have to make sure there
:27:35. > :27:42.is enough evidence to restrict people's freedoms. TPIMs do all
:27:43. > :27:48.sorts of good things to keep people safe. It sends people away from
:27:49. > :27:53.where they live, it tags them... I tell you why they are better. The
:27:54. > :27:57.control orders were on track to be struck down by the courts because
:27:58. > :28:02.one of the things we have to satisfy is the courts but we also have to
:28:03. > :28:06.satisfy, we have to make sure we get the balance between the community is
:28:07. > :28:10.right and the measures we take. If we alienate our communities, we
:28:11. > :28:15.won't get the intelligence that allows us to catch it. There is no
:28:16. > :28:21.point in having more police and intelligence services if you don't
:28:22. > :28:33.give them the powers to do the job. Jeremy Corbyn were licensed James
:28:34. > :28:35.Bond to do precisely nothing. And -- thank you.
:28:36. > :28:43.The revelation that the Manchester suicide bomber, 22-year-old
:28:44. > :28:46.Salman Abedi, was born in this country has raised fresh concerns
:28:47. > :28:48.about the effectiveness of the UK's counter-extremism policy.
:28:49. > :28:51.In a moment we'll be talking to two people who've spent their careers
:28:52. > :28:52.investigating radicalisation in the UK.
:28:53. > :28:54.Douglas Murray, of the Henry Jackson Society,
:28:55. > :28:56.and Sara Khan, author of The Battle for British Islam and CEO
:28:57. > :28:58.of the counter-extremism organisation Inspire.
:28:59. > :29:01.We asked both for a personal take on how to confront the problem
:29:02. > :29:04.of Islamist extremism. First up, here's Douglas Murray.
:29:05. > :29:09.Even after all these dead, all this mourning and defiance,
:29:10. > :29:27.We remain stuck in the John Lennon response to terrorism -
:29:28. > :29:31.Our politicians still refuse to accurately identify
:29:32. > :29:32.the sources of the problem, and polite society
:29:33. > :29:39.This country gave asylum to the Libyan parents of Salman Abedi.
:29:40. > :29:43.Their son repaid that generosity by killing 22 British people,
:29:44. > :29:50.one for each year of life this country had given him.
:29:51. > :29:54.We need to think far more deeply about all this.
:29:55. > :29:57.Eastern Europe doesn't have an Islamic terrorism problem
:29:58. > :30:05.France has the worst problem because it has the most Islam.
:30:06. > :30:09.Are we ever going to draw any lessons from this?
:30:10. > :30:17.For the time being, the game is to be as inoffensive as possible.
:30:18. > :30:20.The rot isn't just within the Muslim communities.
:30:21. > :30:24.Consider all those retired British officials and others who shill,
:30:25. > :30:28.and are in the pay of the Saudis and other foreign states,
:30:29. > :30:34.even while they pump the extreme versions of Islam into our country.
:30:35. > :30:44.It is high time we became serious too.
:30:45. > :30:52.Islamist extremism is flourishing in our country.
:30:53. > :30:59.We're failing to defeat it, so what can we do about it?
:31:00. > :31:02.Whenever I say we must counter those Muslim organisations
:31:03. > :31:07.who are promoting hatred, discrimination, and sometimes even
:31:08. > :31:11.violence, I'm often either ignored by some politicians out
:31:12. > :31:14.of a misplaced fear of cultural sensitivity, or I find myself
:31:15. > :31:17.experiencing abuse by some of my fellow Muslims.
:31:18. > :31:26.These groups and their sympathisers tour Muslim communities,
:31:27. > :31:29.hold events, and have hundreds of thousands of followers
:31:30. > :31:33.Yet there is little counter challenge to their toxic
:31:34. > :31:39.anti-Western narrative, which includes opposition
:31:40. > :31:44.I've seen politicians and charities partner
:31:45. > :31:49.with and support some of these voices and groups.
:31:50. > :31:55.Many anti-racist groups will challenge those on the far
:31:56. > :31:58.right but not Muslim hate preachers, in the erroneous belief that to do
:31:59. > :32:05.But it's Islamophobic not to challenge them because it implies
:32:06. > :32:15.Following the attack on Monday, it cannot be business as usual.
:32:16. > :32:24.We must counter those who seek to divide us.
:32:25. > :32:31.Sarah Karen Allen Douglas Murray join me know. You wrote a book,
:32:32. > :32:36.strange death of Europe. What did you mean in your film when you said,
:32:37. > :32:40.let's get serious? Several things. Let me give you one example. The
:32:41. > :32:45.young man who carried out this atrocious attack was a student at
:32:46. > :32:50.Salford University for two years. He was on a campus which is, from its
:32:51. > :32:53.leadership to its student leadership, opposes all aspects of
:32:54. > :32:59.the government's only counter extremism programme. They boast they
:33:00. > :33:04.are boycotting it. They always did this. The university he was at was
:33:05. > :33:10.against the only counter extremism policy this state has. This is just
:33:11. > :33:16.one example of a much bigger problem. What are you suggesting?
:33:17. > :33:25.Shut down the University? Force them to change their policies? I think in
:33:26. > :33:33.the case of Salford, which discourages students from reporting
:33:34. > :33:37.Islamic extremism... When you discover you have produced a suicide
:33:38. > :33:41.bomber in Manchester, you should be held responsible. What do you say to
:33:42. > :33:47.that? I think it is quite clear from I am experienced there have been
:33:48. > :33:50.politicians who have undermined Prevent, community organisations,
:33:51. > :33:55.Islamist groups who have been at the forefront of undermining and
:33:56. > :34:02.countering Prevent, but also wider counter extremism measures. Islamist
:34:03. > :34:06.-- Islamist extremes and has flourished in this country. If
:34:07. > :34:11.Summer Rae had given us a crystal ball ten years ago and said, look
:34:12. > :34:14.forward and you will see hundreds of people leave this country to join
:34:15. > :34:17.Isis, we will have hundreds of people convicted of Islamist
:34:18. > :34:22.offences, I think we would have been quite shocked that things have got
:34:23. > :34:25.worse as opposed to getting better. Douglas Murray, the essence of your
:34:26. > :34:27.argument when you made the comparison between the numbers of
:34:28. > :34:33.Muslims in other countries is that we have too much Islam in Britain?
:34:34. > :34:37.The aunt Tilly Muslim Brotherhood give is that the answer to
:34:38. > :34:43.absolutely everything is Islam. Less Islam is a good thing. Let me
:34:44. > :34:46.finish. The Islamic world is in the middle of a very serious problem. It
:34:47. > :34:51.has been going on since the beginning. I think it is not worth
:34:52. > :34:56.continuing to risk our own security simply in order to be politically
:34:57. > :35:00.correct. I would disagree with Douglas on that. Nobody is going to
:35:01. > :35:03.deny that since the end of the 20th century there has been a rise in
:35:04. > :35:08.Islamist extreme terror organisations. Yes, there is a
:35:09. > :35:13.crisis within contemporary Islam, but there is a class. There are
:35:14. > :35:15.competing claims about what the faith stands for. While we are
:35:16. > :35:21.seeing Islamist terror organisations, leading theologians
:35:22. > :35:26.are saying that the concept of a caliphate is outdated. Muslims
:35:27. > :35:32.should be adopting a human rights culture. I entirely agree with that.
:35:33. > :35:37.There are obviously people trying to counter that. I would urge us to
:35:38. > :35:41.take the long view. In the history of Islam there have been many
:35:42. > :35:45.reformers. Most of the time they have ended a up being the ones on
:35:46. > :35:50.the brunt of the violence. I deeply resent what you and others do in
:35:51. > :35:56.this country. I want you to win. But they are a Billy good minority. A
:35:57. > :35:58.poll last year found that two thirds of British Muslims found they would
:35:59. > :36:06.not report a family member they found to be involved in extremism to
:36:07. > :36:13.the police. You are proposing more Draconian measures. I wish they
:36:14. > :36:17.could win. We should do everything we can to support people like that.
:36:18. > :36:23.What we should recognise the scale of the problem is beyond our current
:36:24. > :36:27.understanding. You counter radicalisation on a university
:36:28. > :36:33.campus or online? Discussion we had with Ben Wallace about the material
:36:34. > :36:36.that is out there. If we pursue in a hard-line way perhaps the sort of
:36:37. > :36:43.thing Douglas Murray is suggesting, gone is freedom of speech, gone is
:36:44. > :36:48.freedom of debate and discussion? The best way to counter extremism is
:36:49. > :36:54.through the prism of human rights. We cannot abandon our human rights
:36:55. > :37:00.to fight extremism. Where I think we are going wrong, where there is a
:37:01. > :37:05.gap, is the lack of counter work to challenge Islamist ideals. How many
:37:06. > :37:10.people are going to say we need to counter that strict narrative? That
:37:11. > :37:17.is where we are not doing enough work. What about the human rights
:37:18. > :37:20.point, that you cannot take away people's human rights? I'm not
:37:21. > :37:26.suggesting that. I'm suggesting we do things that ensure that 22 people
:37:27. > :37:32.don't get blown up on an average Monday again, OK? Dissent to be
:37:33. > :37:39.opposed to people want to blow up our daughters is not opposing human
:37:40. > :37:42.rights. If you're taking government money and you are an institution
:37:43. > :37:45.like Salford University you should be held responsible for not
:37:46. > :37:50.cooperating with standard security measures. You can challenge
:37:51. > :37:56.extremism without abandoning human rights. We have got to actually
:37:57. > :38:01.counter the Islamist narrative. We're not doing enough. This is not
:38:02. > :38:05.about closing down free speech. This is encouraging it. This is the most
:38:06. > :38:13.effective way of countering the Islamist narrative. Why isn't it
:38:14. > :38:17.doing better? A number of reasons. One is there is a denial taking
:38:18. > :38:22.place. A lot of apologetics. Part of it is the way we talk about Muslims
:38:23. > :38:27.in this country. We use the term Muslim community as if they are
:38:28. > :38:30.homogenous. There is a positive trend but there is a negative trend
:38:31. > :38:34.among British Muslims. We need to counter those promoting the idea
:38:35. > :38:40.that Muslims are part of a collective identity. I agree. It is
:38:41. > :38:43.also the case there is massive push back because a lot of Muslims are
:38:44. > :38:47.defending the faith in this country. We think we can push them down a
:38:48. > :38:50.better path but they are defending absolutely everything. We need to
:38:51. > :38:52.get real about that. Thank you very much.
:38:53. > :38:54.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:38:55. > :38:56.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:38:57. > :39:06.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
:39:07. > :39:10.Hello and welcome to your local part of the show in a week in which seven
:39:11. > :39:12.North East people lost their lives in the Manchester bombing.
:39:13. > :39:15.We'll be discussing that and Labour's pledge to reverse cuts
:39:16. > :39:17.to the police and emergency services, which Jeremy Corbyn
:39:18. > :39:21.says is making the fight against terrorism even harder.
:39:22. > :39:23.My guests are James Wharton, who is hoping to retain
:39:24. > :39:25.his Stockton South seat for the Conservatives.
:39:26. > :39:28.Laura Pidcock, who is standing for Labour in the North West
:39:29. > :39:32.Anne Marie Curry is the Liberal Democrat contender in Darlington.
:39:33. > :39:36.Andy Redfearn is the Green Party's candidate in Gateshead.
:39:37. > :39:39.We'll also be taking a look at another of the big issues
:39:40. > :39:41.in the North in this election - transport.
:39:42. > :39:42.Which party, if any, will deliver much-needed
:39:43. > :39:44.investment in our roads, railways and the Tyne
:39:45. > :39:50.Let's start with the response in our region to the attack
:39:51. > :39:53.Hundreds of people turned out at a vigil in Newcastle
:39:54. > :39:55.to show their support and solidarity with those affected.
:39:56. > :39:57.While flags were flown at half-mast and flowers laid
:39:58. > :40:01.at the Town Hall in South Shields, as well as at many other public
:40:02. > :40:03.buildings across the region, a minute's silence was observed
:40:04. > :40:18.A lot of emotion this week, some defiance, determination not to be
:40:19. > :40:22.beaten by the terrorists. It is enough being done to protect the
:40:23. > :40:27.public? I think it is very difficult to counter these sort of threats,
:40:28. > :40:33.individuals motivated by things they see or read online or things that
:40:34. > :40:37.they see in their own lives. The security services do an incredibly
:40:38. > :40:43.good job. A number of attacks have been stopped. We always need to be
:40:44. > :40:47.vigilant and careful. We rely on communities to work with our
:40:48. > :40:52.security services to prevent this sort of thing, but we need to
:40:53. > :40:56.recognise the emergency services, security services doing a good job
:40:57. > :41:00.and often difficult circumstances. Do you think Jeremy Corbyn head to
:41:01. > :41:05.the right tone with his response? I want to starts by saying that I
:41:06. > :41:10.couldn't stop thinking about my three nieces on that day because
:41:11. > :41:14.they really wanted to go to that concept. I asked them after the
:41:15. > :41:18.event that they would still want to go to construct and they all said
:41:19. > :41:23.yes. That is the kind of defiance that we need. The emergency services
:41:24. > :41:29.did an incredible job. It brings out the best in people. They saved
:41:30. > :41:36.whoever they save. Once people are less raw, once the nation has the
:41:37. > :41:39.chance to grieve, I think there are questions to be answered about
:41:40. > :41:43.whether cutting 20,000 police from our streets had an impact on the
:41:44. > :41:51.kind of intelligence we are able to gather. Jeremy Corbyn raised on
:41:52. > :41:54.Friday, was that too soon? They are conversations happening on the
:41:55. > :42:02.doorstep so he is raising the voice of the people. What does follow
:42:03. > :42:07.these numbers do to their ability to gather information? There is no
:42:08. > :42:12.evidence that the attack on Manchester could have been prevented
:42:13. > :42:15.by more police on the street. I work with young people over the last
:42:16. > :42:21.eight years, and I have worked with extreme young people, with young
:42:22. > :42:26.people radicalise towards the far right. When we look at interventions
:42:27. > :42:30.for those jumpy but we see the impact of cuts. We say, can we
:42:31. > :42:39.repair them there, can we have a youth worker... You can say that the
:42:40. > :42:43.cuts had anything to do with that motivation for the person who
:42:44. > :42:47.planted the bombs in Manchester? That person is responsible for what
:42:48. > :42:52.they did. When we have all had time to grieve, there are questions to be
:42:53. > :42:57.answered about the police cuts. High up these officers are saying that
:42:58. > :43:01.the piece are under pressure. It is valid for boaters to look at this
:43:02. > :43:05.and say I would be safer if these cuts to boost officers hadn't
:43:06. > :43:11.happened? It is perfectly valid reporters to make judgments. The
:43:12. > :43:13.truth is that this sort of activity is not straightforward old-fashioned
:43:14. > :43:20.policing. It is very complex and requires a complex response which
:43:21. > :43:24.includes the security services. Nonetheless, people will have a
:43:25. > :43:29.choice in this election to feel safe with Jeremy Corbyn Ord Theresa May.
:43:30. > :43:34.Labour promising more police officers, you're not. Labour seems
:43:35. > :43:38.to have rediscovered the magic money tree and the selection. In Jeremy
:43:39. > :43:43.Corbyn you have a leader that this week on Terror and the causes of it,
:43:44. > :43:52.and Theresa May as an experienced Home Secretary. Tim Farron criticise
:43:53. > :43:59.Jeremy Corbyn scented with politics before people on Thursday. There is
:44:00. > :44:03.a time and a place to do it. A couple of days after the event is
:44:04. > :44:09.not the right time to do it. Maybe in a week's time would been a better
:44:10. > :44:13.time because people then have got over the horrific shock. A lot of
:44:14. > :44:18.people are in shock about the situation. Do you disagree with the
:44:19. > :44:24.general thrust of what he said? I have concerns because the reporter,
:44:25. > :44:27.that the imam and Muslim community were telling the police did this guy
:44:28. > :44:31.had gone rogue yet nothing was done. Was that due to lack of policing or
:44:32. > :44:38.was it due to people not believing the imam? That needs to be
:44:39. > :44:42.investigated. The response has been firm on this post the attack. The
:44:43. > :44:46.terror alert level has been lowered. Could more have been done? It is
:44:47. > :44:50.hard to say looking back in hindsight that nothing more could
:44:51. > :44:54.have been done. Clearly lots more could have been done in this
:44:55. > :44:58.specific case. What people are interested in is what can we do on a
:44:59. > :45:02.more general level to make our country safer, to make people feel
:45:03. > :45:07.more included? For somebody to actually want to blow themselves up
:45:08. > :45:12.and kill other people... What do you think is the solution? We have
:45:13. > :45:17.created a culture in this country or allowed a culture to beat created,
:45:18. > :45:23.particularly in the light of Brexit, for it to be OK for people to say
:45:24. > :45:29.things that are wrong and reassessed and cause people to feel
:45:30. > :45:34.marginalised, disadvantaged. We don't know what the motivation of
:45:35. > :45:39.this man was. He was a young man he has clearly decided his only hope
:45:40. > :45:42.unlike this to blow himself up. Somebody has done the evil thing of
:45:43. > :45:46.persuading him that was the right thing to do. People behind that of
:45:47. > :45:54.the people we should be making sure we find. It is not a great issue for
:45:55. > :46:04.Labour, the polls suggest that people trust Theresa May over Jeremy
:46:05. > :46:07.Corbyn on this issue. Amber Rudd admitted after this that she needed
:46:08. > :46:11.to look again at police cuts. I am not saying anything outrageous or
:46:12. > :46:15.anything the Home Secretary has not said, that there would be a rethink
:46:16. > :46:22.of the police cuts. It makes people feel secure is that they know they
:46:23. > :46:27.have a lease officers who are not stressed than being supported. That
:46:28. > :46:32.bomber was responsible for his actions. Is it so wrong for Labour
:46:33. > :46:35.leader make some connection with saying that foreign wars, the
:46:36. > :46:41.instability of foreign countries, is a problem that feeds this. Jeremy
:46:42. > :46:45.Corbyn is entitled to make the contribution as he sees fit. Most
:46:46. > :46:50.people looking at what he said at his track record in Parliament, over
:46:51. > :46:51.his entire life in politics, see somebody who cannot be trusted on
:46:52. > :46:55.this issue. Well, let's look at an issue
:46:56. > :46:58.now that doesn't always gets much attention at a general
:46:59. > :47:00.election - transport. It is crucial of course,
:47:01. > :47:02.as anybody who has battled through roadworks or stood for hours
:47:03. > :47:04.in an overcrowded But investment is also vital
:47:05. > :47:08.for the region's economic success. The North East and Cumbria has
:47:09. > :47:10.lagged far behind London and the South East in transport
:47:11. > :47:13.spending for years, but now the parties are making
:47:14. > :47:17.promises to change all that. Washington, Tyne and Wear,
:47:18. > :47:19.and a man on the mission trying And this, apparently,
:47:20. > :47:28.is Railway Terrace. But, sadly, it seems I am
:47:29. > :47:33.destined for disappointment. Well, just my luck, I seem to have
:47:34. > :47:36.missed the last train here by 54 years because,
:47:37. > :47:38.actually, there has been no train station here in Washington,
:47:39. > :47:41.not even a link to the Tyne That is despite an 80,000
:47:42. > :47:48.population that, as you can Washington is the largest town
:47:49. > :47:54.in the North with no trains. And that means a lot of this,
:47:55. > :47:57.waiting for buses, especially for Adam Robson during his time
:47:58. > :48:00.at Newcastle College. It took me well over
:48:01. > :48:03.an hour, two buses and then eventually the Metro,
:48:04. > :48:05.to get there and it I was thinking there
:48:06. > :48:11.are probably thousands of people within Washington who would commute
:48:12. > :48:13.to Newcastle and if they don't drive, they will probably have
:48:14. > :48:15.to go through equally But Adam didn't take
:48:16. > :48:20.that lying down. He started a campaign to bring
:48:21. > :48:22.the Metro to Washington, Nowadays, he is at university,
:48:23. > :48:26.but remains convinced I did enjoy growing up
:48:27. > :48:32.in Washington, but if I came back to work in the North East I would
:48:33. > :48:35.probably choose somewhere else. So having the Metro here
:48:36. > :48:37.could make the difference between whether you come back
:48:38. > :48:39.here or not, really? But even the existing
:48:40. > :48:42.Metro has problems. This station needs TLC
:48:43. > :48:44.and the trains are even worse - 40 years old and increasingly
:48:45. > :48:48.unreliable. A ?500 million bid for new
:48:49. > :48:51.investment is with ministers now. Campaigning passengers say the cash
:48:52. > :48:56.should be found and without delay. We need new trains,
:48:57. > :48:58.we need a new power system, we need infrastructure or we close
:48:59. > :49:01.the Metro down and that's And the infrastructure on the roads
:49:02. > :49:06.just couldn't cope with that, so it's not just for people
:49:07. > :49:09.who travel by Metro, it's for the whole of the North East
:49:10. > :49:13.that this is needed. But at least our roads
:49:14. > :49:15.are seeing some investment, including a new ?100 million bridge
:49:16. > :49:17.across the Wear. But, actually, this is more
:49:18. > :49:20.than just about building a spectacular bridge or even cutting
:49:21. > :49:23.journey times because the hope is that when this opens
:49:24. > :49:26.in about a year's time it will help to regenerate Sunderland
:49:27. > :49:28.and bring new jobs to both Further north in Cramlington,
:49:29. > :49:34.an example of investment This ?2 million lorry test centre
:49:35. > :49:39.was built by a local haulier, but the boss here still wants to see
:49:40. > :49:41.the brakes taken off We have talked now for probably 30,
:49:42. > :49:47.40 years about dualling the A1. We are always more comfortable
:49:48. > :49:50.when we see the diggers on the road. Businesses like ours invest
:49:51. > :49:54.when we can see what the future is. This facility we are in today,
:49:55. > :49:58.for example, the vehicle testing centre, is built at the junction
:49:59. > :50:03.of the A19 and A1. It is here because the
:50:04. > :50:05.road network is here. The same would happen
:50:06. > :50:14.if the roads were further north. The same would happen if the roads
:50:15. > :50:17.were built further north. Back in Washington,
:50:18. > :50:19.the weeds continue to grow Of course, this isn't the only place
:50:20. > :50:23.waiting for transport investment. Teesside would love its own Metro,
:50:24. > :50:25.Ashington the return of passenger services,
:50:26. > :50:26.West Cumbrians the So wouldn't it would be nice
:50:27. > :50:30.if we could make decisions about that here rather than waiting
:50:31. > :50:32.for Westminster and Whitehall? Some say that could happen
:50:33. > :50:35.if councils and mayors were given more control over local taxes
:50:36. > :50:38.and allowed to borrow to invest. We really think the North should be
:50:39. > :50:41.leading not pleading Local leaders should have the kind
:50:42. > :50:45.of control necessary to be able to make the investments
:50:46. > :50:47.that they know are going to benefit the local area, and also be able
:50:48. > :50:50.to borrow upfront to fund that economic growth that
:50:51. > :50:53.will come in the future. For now, though, the people
:50:54. > :50:56.of Washington and beyond must wait to see what Westminster politicians
:50:57. > :51:12.promise and, more crucially, John McDonnell came up a few weeks
:51:13. > :51:19.before the election and pledged Metro investment, hundreds of
:51:20. > :51:22.millions of pounds of investment. Labour and the selection is
:51:23. > :51:27.promising to pay for everything for everyone and they don't know whether
:51:28. > :51:33.money is going come from. They are going to borrow that money and put
:51:34. > :51:38.it into an infrastructure fund. They are going to borrow some. There
:51:39. > :51:42.would be huge tax rises needed if they were to deliver on what they
:51:43. > :51:49.are saying. Transport investment is important for growth. We want to see
:51:50. > :51:53.more in the North. All politicians in our region, whoever is elected,
:51:54. > :51:57.we will need to make the case to get that investment into the north-east.
:51:58. > :52:02.The case at the moment is being made by Labour. Metro investment is
:52:03. > :52:11.critical, we have pledged Labour, not from you. The Labour manifesto
:52:12. > :52:15.is a fantasy shopping list. Better than no pledge at all. We have seen
:52:16. > :52:21.transport for London established, significant investment on our roads,
:52:22. > :52:29.but we need to do more. We need to make a case for this region. ?500
:52:30. > :52:33.million for the Metro, that will be considered against other bids around
:52:34. > :52:38.the country. We need to make our case is the strongest and
:52:39. > :52:42.successful. You are proposing too great a mountain of debt to fund
:52:43. > :52:47.them. It is not credible. That is not true. The Tories are on the
:52:48. > :52:52.roads here because we have costed manifesto. They don't. They talk
:52:53. > :52:56.about consultations and Green Paper is, when you are asking the public
:52:57. > :53:01.to place trust in you... You are going to borrow a massive wedge of
:53:02. > :53:05.money. It is cost neutral if you are borrowing to invest. It costs us and
:53:06. > :53:08.massive amount of money to have privatised rail systems at the
:53:09. > :53:14.moment when that money could be coming back into the Treasury. It
:53:15. > :53:18.doesn't make any sense... As the Minister for the Northern powerhouse
:53:19. > :53:25.and shareholders that could be coming into the Treasury, the
:53:26. > :53:33.Conservatives have presided over a massive transport authority. It is
:53:34. > :53:41.over ?1000 per head in the south-east, it is only ?200 per head
:53:42. > :53:47.in the North East. We are seeing nutrients on the lines... Labour's
:53:48. > :53:51.rhetoric doesn't match up to what is happening, does it? We have seen bus
:53:52. > :53:57.deregulation, seeing the people in North West Durham are completely cut
:53:58. > :54:03.off, they can't get buses on Sundays or bank holidays. They have to walk
:54:04. > :54:06.for hours to get to a shopping centre. Who would say local
:54:07. > :54:11.authorities should be able to set timetables and routes. Labour has
:54:12. > :54:16.come up with a plan to spend hundreds of millions of pounds. They
:54:17. > :54:22.are in a better position to deliver the newcomers away but would you? Is
:54:23. > :54:25.what Labour and the Tories are banking on his infinite growth,
:54:26. > :54:29.infinite resources, infinite everything because that high
:54:30. > :54:35.everything will be funded. We think that should be more questions about
:54:36. > :54:40.how we just only build more stuff, but begin to ask questions about why
:54:41. > :54:47.people need to travel? When the A1 was recently upgraded through to
:54:48. > :54:51.Newcastle, the upgrade there, employers knew it was coming, Newton
:54:52. > :54:55.was going to be chaos, they came up a full-time of creative ways to work
:54:56. > :55:05.with their employees, early start, early finishes, traffic fell. If you
:55:06. > :55:11.want your road in your area improved, don't go green? If you
:55:12. > :55:19.want to have cheap foreign travel, dopant green? It is easy to do
:55:20. > :55:24.through that kind of stuff at us. I couldn't get the bus here today
:55:25. > :55:29.because the buses couldn't get me here. Rather than spending billions
:55:30. > :55:35.of pounds investing three miles on the A1 without one single point been
:55:36. > :55:39.spent on bus pass, cycle lanes. We would spend it on making Joe the
:55:40. > :55:45.buses were regulated again so we could ensure people to get public
:55:46. > :55:46.transport again. Looking at your manifesto, take promises and warm
:55:47. > :55:54.words. No even than two dual the A1. words. No even than two dual the A1.
:55:55. > :56:00.Lib Dems locally are campaigning locally to do one all the way up.
:56:01. > :56:05.Why wasn't that in the manifesto? The manifesto is a national policy.
:56:06. > :56:08.believe that is the right thing to believe that is the right thing to
:56:09. > :56:15.are you promising? We are promising are you promising? We are promising
:56:16. > :56:20.to get more sustainable transport, give a reduction in fares for 18-21
:56:21. > :56:25.-year-olds, to get the blood of using the buses. But private
:56:26. > :56:29.companies using the buses, they will only go where they can get a return
:56:30. > :56:34.on the journey. Or we could get more people using the buses...
:56:35. > :56:36.Well, the campaign is entering its last full week.
:56:37. > :56:39.So far, we've seen Theresa May in Northumberland and in North Shields.
:56:40. > :56:41.UKIP leader Paul Nuttall stopped off briefly in Hartlepool.
:56:42. > :56:44.But no sign yet of Jeremy Corbyn, although we do understand
:56:45. > :56:46.he will make an appearance in the North East
:56:47. > :56:50.So let's take stock of what we've seen so far and look ahead
:56:51. > :57:02.The polls have suggested that Labour is picking up support, but goodness
:57:03. > :57:08.knows that they are right, we have been better map -- by that before.
:57:09. > :57:13.There was a real sea change when both manifestos came out. People
:57:14. > :57:17.could see a stark contrast between what the Labour Party was offering
:57:18. > :57:20.knocked on doors when people were knocked on doors when people were
:57:21. > :57:23.really scared that the rooms were going to be taken of them if they
:57:24. > :57:29.had to use to social care system. had to use to social care system.
:57:30. > :57:34.There are some affluent places in North West Durham as well, and older
:57:35. > :57:39.people were scared. People started to see a real offer that we are
:57:40. > :57:44.about a party of investing to grow. We are a party that is interested in
:57:45. > :57:51.making sure that we had signed finances through fiscal credibility
:57:52. > :57:58.rule and we have costed manifesto. The Tories have costed there is.
:57:59. > :58:00.There is already talk of relaunching the Conservative campaign. It has
:58:01. > :58:06.been a bit lacklustre. There were some positive policies in the Labour
:58:07. > :58:09.manifesto that people could get hold of, what was there in the
:58:10. > :58:14.Conservative manifesto apart from doom and gloom over social care? I
:58:15. > :58:19.think the polls have narrowed and this election is in contention. You
:58:20. > :58:24.can't assume that result is going to prevail. At the beginning of it like
:58:25. > :58:30.it was going to be an easy win for the Conservatives and Theresa May.
:58:31. > :58:39.That is not the case any more. Labour have promised everything to
:58:40. > :58:42.everyone. Principal effect a generation of people in this country
:58:43. > :58:47.and people have to vote between Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn. Making
:58:48. > :58:53.the presidential hasn't worked so far. The tarnish has come Theresa
:58:54. > :58:57.May in the last few weeks about what has been happening. I would love to
:58:58. > :59:02.sit here and say we are going to glide to a win, but the polls have
:59:03. > :59:05.narrowed. The big issue that will affect this were a generation is he
:59:06. > :59:13.will undergo sea of exit, and that will either be Theresa May or Jeremy
:59:14. > :59:16.Corbyn. Ten days to go, no sign of a Lib Dem left off. No sign of
:59:17. > :59:21.high-profile campaigning from your party. If anything, your voters
:59:22. > :59:25.drifting to Labour. I think it is a lot of tactical voting that is
:59:26. > :59:31.happening across the region. Because of that we may lose out in our
:59:32. > :59:37.nontargeted seats. We have plenty of seats around the country whether
:59:38. > :59:42.tactical voting has helped us. Apart from Berwick, it is pretty grim.
:59:43. > :59:45.Derek is getting a good response on the seats. They are squeezing the
:59:46. > :59:52.Labour vote and it seems to be working there. Labour is the only
:59:53. > :59:59.challenge to the Conservatives, is what many people are saying. It has
:00:00. > :00:04.been for many years. Some people will giving get the chance to vote
:00:05. > :00:08.Green. But the most part your party are supportive of Jeremy Corbyn, so
:00:09. > :00:15.why do but the vote in other places to the Greens? Sums Labour policies
:00:16. > :00:21.that the Green party can overlap with. In other areas, we don't feel
:00:22. > :00:29.that Jeremy Corbyn is taking the Labour Party to a place that we
:00:30. > :00:35.don't think right. We would abandon Trident. We would save us and the
:00:36. > :00:40.country ?10 billion. It is important that we are campaigning on those
:00:41. > :00:44.issues, issues like electoral reform, issues about sustainability.
:00:45. > :00:48.The Tories had a manifesto that said there are five big issues facing
:00:49. > :00:53.this country and not one of them was the environment. How could that be?
:00:54. > :00:58.You might be looking to reduce the scale of debate, but it was to be a
:00:59. > :01:02.big one. We are taking every vote seriously. We're right there all day
:01:03. > :01:08.everyday... Are you really think we can win? I think there has been an
:01:09. > :01:14.atmospheric change in the country so I think we can win. Personal debt in
:01:15. > :01:19.this country is ?14,000 per household. Why is that, because
:01:20. > :01:25.people's pay has been frozen and they are on low pay. We propose to
:01:26. > :01:30.change all of that. You have to put some hope back into your campaign,
:01:31. > :01:38.haven't you? A positive future? Absolutely, and I think there is,
:01:39. > :01:40.but that doesn't change the fact that this is about Brexit. I think
:01:41. > :01:51.there is a lot of hope in Brexit. On Tuesday we'll be in Gateshead
:01:52. > :01:55.where an audience of voters from across the North East
:01:56. > :01:57.and Cumbria will be putting THEIR questions
:01:58. > :01:59.to a panel of candidates re-elected. Is the only choice for
:02:00. > :02:17.strong and stable leadership. Now, after the Manchester attack,
:02:18. > :02:20.will the final week of election campaigning different in tone from
:02:21. > :02:28.what came before? My panel are here. Tim Marshall, it will be very front
:02:29. > :02:33.of Centre for the next few days. Is that a good thing for the election
:02:34. > :02:37.if it is going to be framed to who do you feel more safe with? It is
:02:38. > :02:42.inevitable but I think it will only be part of the election. As I said
:02:43. > :02:48.before the opt out, for many voters this is also about economics,
:02:49. > :02:53.unemployment. It is not all about Brexit, nor is it only about
:02:54. > :02:58.security. What it will do, I hope, is get the tone of the debate right.
:02:59. > :03:02.Although I have already seen the tone being lowered. I wasn't
:03:03. > :03:07.impressed with Mr Corbyn's speech last week blaming it on a foreign
:03:08. > :03:14.policy, which is a wafer thin analysis of what is going on.
:03:15. > :03:22.Inappropriate timing too soon? No, I think the argument is utter
:03:23. > :03:25.nonsense. I don't want to attack just one side. The Conservative
:03:26. > :03:30.party, I've forgotten which minister has already said that we would be
:03:31. > :03:35.safer under a Tory Prime Minister, it has got nothing to do with Labour
:03:36. > :03:44.or Tory government, the next Islamic attack. It is to do with jihadist
:03:45. > :03:49.ideology, not party policies. You raise an important issue about tone.
:03:50. > :03:52.It also points to a broader argument, one we were having
:03:53. > :03:59.earlier, has politics been two courses with this issue of
:04:00. > :04:05.extremism? Has the conversation about it tiptoed around some of the
:04:06. > :04:08.sensitive issues? And by the media. You highlight the problem of this
:04:09. > :04:17.being part of the election campaign by saying, has politics been too
:04:18. > :04:21.cautious? Who do you mean by politics? And in an election
:04:22. > :04:28.campaign there is a duty to be a divide, and adamant about values,
:04:29. > :04:32.policies etc. Security is an issue that transcends those political
:04:33. > :04:39.divides. So I think it is deeply unhealthy. It is nobody's fault a
:04:40. > :04:46.tragedy occurred. But if you ask me does it help or enhance an election
:04:47. > :04:53.debate? Emphatically not. A tragic event brings politics, as you call
:04:54. > :04:57.it, together. Security is an issue that is complex and doesn't divide
:04:58. > :05:04.neatly. Elections are political battles, by definition. So I think
:05:05. > :05:11.the coming together of this, a tragedy occurred anyway, but it is
:05:12. > :05:16.an unfortunate context. Do you agree or do you think this is a time to
:05:17. > :05:21.talk about these issues? Is it a time to review the level of
:05:22. > :05:24.argument? This is a political debate. I personally think the
:05:25. > :05:29.politicians should have been out and about on Wednesday. There is no
:05:30. > :05:35.wrong time to get it right. We mustn't let the terrorists affect
:05:36. > :05:42.our way of life. But they have when we disrupt the election campaign. It
:05:43. > :05:47.may be party political. But for a lot of voters, including me, I want
:05:48. > :05:53.to hear from party leaders. What do you plan to do about this? Right
:05:54. > :05:56.now, I've not heard anything that suggests any of these parties have
:05:57. > :06:01.got to grips with the real problem, which is that we are not actually
:06:02. > :06:03.tackling the problem in our midst. Douglas Murray touched on it
:06:04. > :06:11.earlier. We have not even come to grips with the scale of the problem.
:06:12. > :06:18.Does Labour have a grip -- Power Point in terms of terrorist
:06:19. > :06:23.legislation? It is complicated. And not all of it has worked or is used
:06:24. > :06:26.enough by government? It is another example where this doesn't work in
:06:27. > :06:32.an election debate because David Davis has opposed a lot of this
:06:33. > :06:35.terrorism legislation. He is now heading Brexit. There is a civil
:06:36. > :06:42.liberties argument which I personally have doubts about. Again,
:06:43. > :06:48.it brings people together from the major parties. And Corbyn didn't
:06:49. > :06:52.actually say it was the cause of terrorism, British foreign policy,
:06:53. > :06:56.but it helped to facilitate terrorism, which is a different
:06:57. > :07:00.argument. Again, that would be supported by some Tories as well.
:07:01. > :07:04.That is why it is difficult in an election campaign for this issue to
:07:05. > :07:09.dominate. The front page of the Sunday Times talks about a campaign
:07:10. > :07:13.relaunch, which may not, grow as a great surprise following the social
:07:14. > :07:20.care fiasco. Do we know what that will entail? It sounds like Boris
:07:21. > :07:24.Johnson will play a role. The whole point is it was all about Theresa
:07:25. > :07:28.May and it turns out that is not quite good enough. The more we have
:07:29. > :07:32.seen of Theresa May, the less impressive she has looked. Certainly
:07:33. > :07:37.the Andrew Neil interview just repeating the same thing again and
:07:38. > :07:41.again. Voters don't like that. They like people who are honest and
:07:42. > :07:44.actually engage with them. When we see beat interviews in the next few
:07:45. > :07:49.days, I think it will be interesting to see if she changes tack and tries
:07:50. > :07:55.to engage with what people are asking. If it is back to leadership
:07:56. > :08:03.and Brexit, and the economy, will that be more comfortable ground? I
:08:04. > :08:10.think so. I understand framing it in terms of Brexit. But she has got to
:08:11. > :08:14.broaden it out. I think that is why she is broadening it out. I don't
:08:15. > :08:22.think the tragic events will absolutely dominate. That would be a
:08:23. > :08:26.small victory for terrorism. This is a country of 65 million people with
:08:27. > :08:33.an awful lot of issues. We have 65 million votes, well, 65 million
:08:34. > :08:38.people with opinions in two weeks. It is quite a long campaign. There
:08:39. > :08:44.is still time to go. What do you think Labour will be focusing on
:08:45. > :08:48.from now on? I would imagine they will look very closely at where they
:08:49. > :08:54.are well ahead in the opinion polls and focus on that relentlessly.
:08:55. > :08:59.Public services, NHS etc. And try to get it off as soon as possible from
:09:00. > :09:03.security and fees is used which, on one level at least, appear to be a
:09:04. > :09:07.gift to the Conservatives. I assume that is what they are going to do.
:09:08. > :09:12.But this is a very unpredictable campaign where nothing has gone
:09:13. > :09:18.according to plan. Let's look ahead. On Wednesday evening we have got an
:09:19. > :09:23.election debate. It is in Cambridge. Leaders of some of the parties.
:09:24. > :09:28.Amber Rudd will be representing the Conservatives. We don't know yet who
:09:29. > :09:32.will represent Labour. Today we have had Amber Road and Diane Abbott
:09:33. > :09:37.against each other on Andrew Marr. Let's have a look. I think there is
:09:38. > :09:42.something to be said for a Home Secretary who has actually worked in
:09:43. > :09:46.the Home Office. I work in the home office for nearly three years as a
:09:47. > :09:50.graduate trainee. This government has always felt that urgency. That
:09:51. > :09:53.is why we have been putting in additional money. It is significant
:09:54. > :09:59.that the commission for extremism in the manifesto was put in before
:10:00. > :10:04.Manchester. We need to do more. You voted against prescribing those
:10:05. > :10:07.groups. Because there were groups on that list I deemed to be dissidents
:10:08. > :10:12.rather than terrorist organisations. We are making good progress with the
:10:13. > :10:18.companies who put in place encryption. We will continue to
:10:19. > :10:21.build on that. It was 34 years ago. I had a rather splendid Afro at the
:10:22. > :10:28.time. I don't have the same hairstyle. And I don't have the same
:10:29. > :10:32.views. It is 34 years on. The hairstyle has gone. Some of the
:10:33. > :10:39.views have gone. So you no longer, you regret what you said about the
:10:40. > :10:44.IRA? The hairstyle has gone, the views have gone. I would say to
:10:45. > :10:48.Diane Abbott that I have changed my hairstyle are few times in 34 years
:10:49. > :10:54.but I have not changed my view of how we keep the British public safe.
:10:55. > :10:58.Let's get away from hairstyle sides talk about the prospect of the two
:10:59. > :11:03.of them taking part in the election debate. Would you like to see that?
:11:04. > :11:09.On one level I would like to see it and another the level I would like
:11:10. > :11:14.to see an intelligent debate. I'm glad I never had an Afro or
:11:15. > :11:19.supported the IRA. Whenever Diane Abbott steps out in a TV studio or a
:11:20. > :11:24.radio studio, Labour haemorrhage votes. She cannot say things like my
:11:25. > :11:31.regret supporting this or that legislation. She is an absolute
:11:32. > :11:42.disaster. If Labour put her up, they are beyond mad. Who do you think
:11:43. > :11:47.Labour should put up? By the way, I did have an Afro! I based my whole
:11:48. > :11:54.log on Kevin Keegan and it was good. That is the wrong question. I will
:11:55. > :12:04.explain why. The Labour campaign, it seems to me there were only five or
:12:05. > :12:08.six people put up. That is the fault of others who refused to take part.
:12:09. > :12:12.It also shows the degree to which the current leadership can only rely
:12:13. > :12:17.on five or six people. I would imagine we are talking about a pool
:12:18. > :12:21.of five or six people. As for my judgment as to who the best public
:12:22. > :12:24.performer is in that pool, it would be by some margin John McDonnell,
:12:25. > :12:33.who is a very good interviewee and performer. I think he is a very good
:12:34. > :12:41.performer. It would come back to the economy at some point, presumably.
:12:42. > :12:46.But then it comes back to the IRA. I don't think the debate will be very
:12:47. > :12:50.illuminating. I think if Amber Rudd is there, Diane Abbott should be
:12:51. > :12:54.there. I think the leaders should be debating. Some people say it is
:12:55. > :12:58.froth. I think the leader -- the electorate gets a sense of the
:12:59. > :13:03.leaders. On haircuts, I would like to thank both of them are talking
:13:04. > :13:06.about the haircuts. I am looking forward to tomorrow's papers and the
:13:07. > :13:13.theme that will run through the week. Let's not finish on the hair.
:13:14. > :13:21.Thank you very much for being our guests. That is it for today. Thank
:13:22. > :13:27.the panel for Jonny May. Andrew Neil will be back next weekend. And I
:13:28. > :13:31.will be back on BBC Two on Tuesday. That is at midday with more daily
:13:32. > :13:34.politics. In the meantime, have a very lovely bank holiday. From all
:13:35. > :13:41.of us here, bye-bye.